[0:00]SPEAKER_06:If there's a problem, if there's a hard step...
[0:31]SPEAKER_06:that in principle could be so rare that exactly like you said we could be unique or you know on the other hand it could be that every step along the way is very easy and is almost inevitable given a suitable planet in which case there might be hundreds of millions of planets with life what's your intuition at the moment
[0:58]SPEAKER_06:So I used to refuse to answer that question, but I'm sort of coming around to the idea that all the steps might be easy because, and this is purely based on extrapolation, that every time we look at a particular step that looks hard because we have no idea how to solve it, eventually there's a solution and it ends up looking really easy.
[1:23]SPEAKER_06:And there haven't been any exceptions to that so far.
[1:25]SPEAKER_06:Okay.
[1:29]SPEAKER_01:Right.
[1:32]SPEAKER_01:And how have you been, first of all?
[1:36]SPEAKER_01:Great.
[1:36]SPEAKER_02:He's alive.
[1:38]SPEAKER_02:He almost died or something.
[1:40]SPEAKER_01:I heard.
[1:42]SPEAKER_01:Was it as unexpected, almost dying?
[1:44]SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
[1:45]SPEAKER_01:Really?
[1:47]SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
[1:48]SPEAKER_02:I didn't expect to be able to think of anything until this spring.
[1:55]SPEAKER_02:We had an appointment this spring.
[2:02]SPEAKER_02:It's all right.
[2:03]SPEAKER_02:It just busted one night?
[2:17]SPEAKER_02:No.
[2:18]SPEAKER_01:No.
[2:19]SPEAKER_01:It busted one night?
[2:22]SPEAKER_01:I mean, if it wasn't, you would get felt a little sick over a period of time.
[2:26]SPEAKER_03:It must have been leaking because it was two days.
[2:35]SPEAKER_03:But they fixed it by drilling a little hole here and putting this hole through here.
[2:40]SPEAKER_03:Really?
[2:41]SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that was the standard.
[2:47]SPEAKER_03:There was no stock for all of this.
[2:50]SPEAKER_01:New internal wiring done through the exit plug?
[2:54]SPEAKER_03:Right.
[2:55]SPEAKER_03:Well, they just put another pipe inside.
[3:01]SPEAKER_01:That's running like a new conduit?
[3:03]SPEAKER_01:A new conduit in the old conduit?
[3:06]SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
[3:06]SPEAKER_06:It's like plates on the inside.
[3:08]SPEAKER_06:Thank you.
[3:10]SPEAKER_00:Wow.
[3:10]SPEAKER_00:Some coffee.
[3:20]SPEAKER_03:Some coffee.
[3:23]SPEAKER_06:Some coffee.
[3:39]SPEAKER_01:What hospital do you live in?
[3:43]SPEAKER_01:Well, in New York, it's easy.
[3:46]SPEAKER_01:I have my selection.
[3:48]SPEAKER_03:There's lots of good hospitals, as long as there's no traffic.
[3:56]SPEAKER_01:If they're lighting the Christmas tree, you're dead no matter what happens.
[3:59]SPEAKER_01:Unless you can't get anywhere, unless the hospital's in your house.
[4:02]SPEAKER_01:But since I live in the island, the Virgin Islands, it was tricky because I had the flu and I fainted.
[4:07]SPEAKER_01:And I said, how am I going to get, there's no hospital for hundreds of miles.
[4:12]SPEAKER_01:There's a hospital just by name only.
[4:14]SPEAKER_02:What about a helicopter then?
[4:16]SPEAKER_01:But to where?
[4:17]SPEAKER_03:Yes, what's the range of a helicopter?
[4:21]SPEAKER_01:Well, I can go to St. Thomas, but there's, they practice this form of medicine referred to as Oonga Boonga.
[4:30]SPEAKER_01:which is not the latest.
[4:32]SPEAKER_01:It has sort of a, the version of a stent is a bone from their nose.
[4:38]SPEAKER_01:Yes?
[4:41]SPEAKER_02:Miami.
[4:43]SPEAKER_01:But that's two and a half hours by plane.
[4:46]SPEAKER_01:I didn't like those, the idea of traveling.
[4:52]SPEAKER_01:Marvin, when you were looking at the concept, how do you describe, in the art of intelligence, deception?
[5:00]SPEAKER_01:What's the first, the basics?
[5:03]SPEAKER_01:Anything that is intelligent, if you can try and design the AI systems, at some point you would have said that you wanted to have a system that was smart as a two-year-old or a three-year-old.
[5:14]SPEAKER_01:Now, what most three-year-olds turn out to lie, and one of the systems psychologically, right, is the fact that you know it's intelligent if it's able to lie.
[5:25]SPEAKER_03:Oh, why?
[5:27]SPEAKER_01:Yep.
[5:28]SPEAKER_01:Why?
[5:28]SPEAKER_01:Why?
[5:29]SPEAKER_01:Kids who never lie aren't very smart.
[5:36]SPEAKER_01:They're not very intelligent.
[5:37]SPEAKER_02:Their kind of lying is confabulation.
[5:42]SPEAKER_02:It's more like trying to plead.
[5:44]SPEAKER_02:Well, until they get a little older, they do definitely.
[5:47]SPEAKER_01:At some point, when they say that the shit on the floor wasn't me, it was the dog.
[5:51]SPEAKER_02:That's confabulation.
[5:53]SPEAKER_02:I mean, that's a kind of lying.
[5:54]SPEAKER_01:But it's a kind of deception.
[5:56]SPEAKER_01:It's a definite deception.
[5:58]SPEAKER_01:You send out a fake message to see if you get an answer that has high benefit for low cost.
[6:06]SPEAKER_02:One of my first cases when I was in medical school, I was in a psychiatric division, and they were getting into business.
[6:16]SPEAKER_02:Psychiatrist was demonstrating how this drunk guy was lying, was, you know, confabulating.
[6:23]SPEAKER_02:Right.
[6:23]SPEAKER_02:So, you know, we had a great time last night.
[6:26]SPEAKER_02:I wasn't a blind kid.
[6:28]SPEAKER_02:The drink was great.
[6:29]SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[6:30]SPEAKER_02:And then about a second later, he said, Hey, Doc, who's pulling whose leg?
[6:39]SPEAKER_02:So, anyway.
[6:40]SPEAKER_03:I was reading something about young chimpanzees.
[6:44]SPEAKER_03:All right.
[6:46]SPEAKER_03:playing cooperatively but they can't remember what age that is.
[6:52]SPEAKER_03:They guess what the other one wants and they tend to share things.
[6:57]SPEAKER_01:And then when they're a little older they stop that.
[7:02]SPEAKER_01:But that's more cooperation and the lack of cooperation than actual deception.
[7:06]SPEAKER_03:Well, guessing that somebody else wants something must be pretty abstract.
[7:12]SPEAKER_01:That's abstract but you're not sending out a false message.
[7:15]SPEAKER_01:You're trying to
[7:16]SPEAKER_01:I think, in terms of what the other person's mind, reading the other person's mind, what the group, what's potentially the group.
[7:24]SPEAKER_03:Right, right.
[7:25]SPEAKER_03:So this article didn't say when they start to lie.
[7:30]SPEAKER_03:So if you're making an intelligent... Pretending that you don't have the foot or something.
[7:34]SPEAKER_01:So I was trying to think, if when Danny was building a thinking machine and you were building artificial intelligence things, did you guys ever think about the necessity for a machine to lie?
[7:44]SPEAKER_01:to in fact be intelligent because it would be a lower cost solution to some of its problems.
[7:51]SPEAKER_01:Give an answer that you'd accept and leave it alone.
[7:54]SPEAKER_01:Danny's expression was he always wanted to make a computer that was proud of him.
[8:00]SPEAKER_00:Yes.
[8:08]SPEAKER_01:And in the game theory, that's what I'm saying, how do you think about, not only in biology, you're dealing with deception all the time and all types of signals, right?
[8:15]SPEAKER_01:If the cells are sending out HIV or anything else is sending out a deceptive signal, so it's accepted.
[8:25]SPEAKER_01:Sorry?
[8:26]SPEAKER_01:Poker is bluffing, right?
[8:30]SPEAKER_01:Yes?
[8:31]SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
[8:32]SPEAKER_03:Pushing pieces and one robot is
[8:39]SPEAKER_03:was actually helping another one build a chair.
[8:44]SPEAKER_03:I don't think... None of those early projects involved trying to fool people.
[8:53]SPEAKER_03:It was hard enough to get them to do anything.
[8:56]SPEAKER_03:Right.
[8:56]SPEAKER_03:So we never got into deception and that sort of thing.
[9:02]SPEAKER_03:I wonder what age children start to lie.
[9:08]SPEAKER_01:Or in a game strategy, at what basics do cells start to send out fake messages, disinformation, or camouflage?
[9:17]SPEAKER_06:I mean, we already have models where cells are in competition with each other.
[9:23]SPEAKER_06:So basically, a model for a cell can grow by eating its neighbors by sucking out similar molecules.
[9:31]SPEAKER_06:So once you've got competition, it seems like...
[9:35]SPEAKER_06:The next step should be what you're talking about, right?
[9:39]SPEAKER_01:Yes.
[9:39]SPEAKER_01:Self-description is free energy.
[9:40]SPEAKER_01:When you're trying to take the free energy in your cell argument, that's what you're doing, right?
[9:46]SPEAKER_01:You're getting all the benefit of that cell growing up to today cheaper by eating it.
[9:51]SPEAKER_01:So it seems that the first strategy would be to hide, whether you hide in junk or whether in computer programs, I would think that if you assume that the underlying structure was an algorithm, whether it be protein folding or any type of program, if your algorithm was known to the competition or the predator, then you're dead meat by definition because once he can read you, there's no reason...
[10:21]SPEAKER_01:You shouldn't be able to figure out the strategy to get your free energy that you've built up.
[10:25]SPEAKER_01:So your first strategy would be to either hide by filling your surroundings with junk, increasing the signal of the noise.
[10:31]SPEAKER_05:Running is useful.
[10:34]SPEAKER_03:Yes.
[10:36]SPEAKER_01:That's not deception.
[10:37]SPEAKER_03:When they're sending people to build these big antennas, they're talking to people 10,000 light years away.
[10:46]SPEAKER_03:Do they send jokes or...
[10:48]SPEAKER_03:What could you send that says, I'm not here, don't bother?
[10:56]SPEAKER_05:That's right.
[10:57]SPEAKER_05:Nobody here but us chickens.
[10:58]SPEAKER_05:Yes.
[11:00]SPEAKER_04:So one possibility is that we'd have a repeated interaction.
[11:05]SPEAKER_04:where there's a possibility of mistakes.
[11:08]SPEAKER_04:So, you know, we're in some repeated cooperative relationship, we're choosing to help each other, but sometimes when I try to be cooperative and do the cooperative thing, a mistake happens and actually I'm selfish by accident.
[11:21]SPEAKER_04:that if you could tell, you know, you could differentiate accidents from real mistakes, that's great.
[11:27]SPEAKER_04:You know, and so then selection would favor strategies that sort of forgive mistakes because they're not predictive of what's going to happen next.
[11:35]SPEAKER_04:But this isn't exactly an example of the thing that he's talking about, where once an agent has in place a strategy that says, I forgive accidents, then it opens the door for a new strategy that,
[11:45]SPEAKER_04:that makes accidents on purpose.
[11:48]SPEAKER_00:That's right.
[11:49]SPEAKER_00:That's a good idea.
[11:51]SPEAKER_00:So I make you believe I didn't mean it.
[11:54]SPEAKER_01:But eBay does that.
[11:56]SPEAKER_01:So eBay has a reputation concept where some of the frauds should be detected by a third party.
[12:02]SPEAKER_05:It reminds me, in Japan it used to be that if you were drunk...
[12:08]SPEAKER_05:and got an accident while driving.
[12:09]SPEAKER_05:That was an extenuating circumstance.
[12:11]SPEAKER_05:Of course I got an accident while driving.
[12:13]SPEAKER_05:I've been drinking.
[12:14]SPEAKER_05:Oh, okay, okay.
[12:15]SPEAKER_05:Sorry, I interrupted you.
[12:17]SPEAKER_05:Please.
[12:18]SPEAKER_06:Send the genome to a crocodile.
[12:23]SPEAKER_06:And say, what a cool place.
[12:32]SPEAKER_01:But in terms of, have you seen anyone do work, really, the difference or similarities between
[12:38]SPEAKER_01:biological viruses and deceptions, strategies, and computer viruses and deceptions, because my sense is that they're very similar, whether, again, noise to signal or signal to noise.
[12:51]SPEAKER_01:Other ways of making believe you're, as two computers, sort of a shake hands, right?
[12:57]SPEAKER_01:The concept is I have to know who you are.
[13:00]SPEAKER_01:Over repeated interaction, you have to understand you're really friendly.
[13:03]SPEAKER_01:There should be some signals back and forth, not only saying I'm still in contact with you, but when someone's eavesdropping a third cell or a third computer, you want to make sure that they don't need to understand what you're saying.
[13:17]SPEAKER_01:And if they tamper with communication, protein-wise or any type of, I should be able to tell that someone, in fact, was looking or playing.
[13:26]SPEAKER_01:And that three-party game becomes very complicated.
[13:29]SPEAKER_01:So the analogy between computational deception and signals and biological signals, I haven't seen it.
[13:36]SPEAKER_06:Yeah, no.
[13:40]SPEAKER_06:Viruses always latch on to cellular receptors, right, which are usually used for cells to talk to each other.
[13:45]SPEAKER_06:So they're sort of using that channel to go in and infect cells.
[13:53]SPEAKER_06:I haven't ever heard of a cell having a fake receptor that it could use to, you know, suck in and kill a virus.
[14:01]SPEAKER_00:The immune system.
[14:04]SPEAKER_06:It's not tricking the virus, right?
[14:07]SPEAKER_04:It's killing the virus.
[14:12]SPEAKER_01:Does the immune system trick?
[14:13]SPEAKER_01:I don't know.
[14:13]SPEAKER_01:Does the immune system trick the virus?
[14:15]SPEAKER_05:No, it detects virus and figures out that it's not what it's supposed to be.
[14:23]SPEAKER_05:Everything was fine.
[14:27]SPEAKER_05:It seemed like a perfectly good cell to infect, and then it came along and dismantled them.
[14:38]SPEAKER_02:So let's go back to bacteria.
[14:44]SPEAKER_00:So they would have these restriction enzymes.
[14:46]SPEAKER_00:So they would actually mask their own sites in the genome.
[14:52]SPEAKER_00:And then if the virus comes in and is not protected in these places, they could cut it there.
[14:57]SPEAKER_00:And so the deception of the virus would be to mask the sites.
[15:01]SPEAKER_00:Or just not have them.
[15:03]SPEAKER_00:Or not have them.
[15:05]SPEAKER_00:How big is this virus?
[15:07]SPEAKER_00:Thank you very much.
[15:12]SPEAKER_00:Maybe a few hundred, maybe less than 1,000 base pairs.
[15:16]SPEAKER_00:What's the smallest virus?
[15:20]SPEAKER_00:The virus particles that depend on other viruses, less than 1,000 bases, I would say.
[15:25]SPEAKER_06:There are, yeah, some that are parasitic or associative.
[15:37]SPEAKER_01:Viroids.
[15:39]SPEAKER_01:What are they called?
[15:40]SPEAKER_01:Viroids.
[15:41]SPEAKER_01:Oh, so it's pre-virus or is it a virus?
[15:44]SPEAKER_06:It's just a little RNA that just sort of carries along on an existing virus.
[15:52]SPEAKER_06:It might get packaged in the same particle.
[15:57]SPEAKER_06:It's like a parasite.
[15:59]SPEAKER_05:It doesn't encode for its own viral shell or anything like that.
[16:02]SPEAKER_06:The virus will do that to signal it.
[16:06]SPEAKER_06:Use cellular machinery for its replication and then get recognized by something in the viral code and get packaged and transmitted.
[16:16]SPEAKER_01:But if you were going to try to find the early form of a deceptive practice in biology, how would you think about it?
[16:24]SPEAKER_06:So going way back.
[16:26]SPEAKER_06:So I don't know.
[16:33]SPEAKER_06:We were talking about
[16:35]SPEAKER_06:these things emerging spontaneously in experiments with just RNA.
[16:40]SPEAKER_06:But then, you know, once you have things compartmentalized in cells with membranes, it's not really obvious how you would make viruses in that situation.
[17:00]SPEAKER_06:It's hard for RNA.
[17:02]SPEAKER_06:But maybe just because we don't really understand how it could happen.
[17:07]SPEAKER_06:I mean, there are RNAs that can recognize membrane surfaces, so maybe that would be enough in some way.
[17:14]SPEAKER_05:In artificial, artificial life, like computerized artificial life, I guess in Tom Ray's TIARA program, this is again a long time ago, one of the things that, I mean, I'm not saying this is a great model for artificial life, but one thing that did happen is it's basically a program where you have these pieces of code that are competing for resources to reproduce themselves.
[17:35]SPEAKER_05:self-reproducing pieces of code, and then they compete for resources to see who does better.
[17:41]SPEAKER_05:But one thing that happened very rapidly was these kind of virus-like pieces of code that basically, they were shorter, they had less code there than the other ones, and they were just using some other existing self-replicating piece of code to replicate themselves.
[17:57]SPEAKER_05:So it was really, I mean, it was a very viral kind of behavior, and it happened almost immediately.
[18:04]SPEAKER_05:It didn't take
[18:05]SPEAKER_05:You know, after just a few, like a few generations.
[18:07]SPEAKER_00:What surprises me so much is you take all the computers in the world, you take the world by faith, and all of that stuff, and it's a huge computational power, but there's no spontaneous emergence of viruses yet.
[18:18]SPEAKER_00:All the viruses are made artificially by people.
[18:22]SPEAKER_00:All the defense against viruses are made artificially by people.
[18:26]SPEAKER_00:Is that true, Martin?
[18:34]SPEAKER_06:Yes.
[18:34]SPEAKER_06:You don't have the sources of variation.
[18:39]SPEAKER_06:I mean, unless you call Microsoft Word, actually, to be alive.
[18:44]SPEAKER_00:I talked to IBM people.
[18:47]I mean, so the immune system that they have is also made by people.
[18:51]I mean, I think once they would have an automatic immune system, that could be a program that could also produce viruses.
[18:59]SPEAKER_05:It also might be hard to install new software.
[19:04]SPEAKER_05:If your computer had its own self-generated autoimmune system.
[19:11]SPEAKER_05:It's like, no way are you installing new software.
[19:13]SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm not doing that.
[19:14]SPEAKER_05:Forget it.
[19:16]SPEAKER_00:But it's very funny because the computer scientists tell me the level with the hackers is kind of lost because you always get a message, update the software.
[19:25]Half of the people update the software.
[19:29]SPEAKER_00:to see where the weakness is, and then they can pick it up with the people.
[19:36]SPEAKER_05:Particularly since the message to update the software is being sent to you by a hacker who is actually sending you the software.
[19:43]SPEAKER_06:I always get these messages saying you should update.
[19:45]SPEAKER_06:How do I know this?
[19:48]SPEAKER_01:Well, biologically, how does that happen?
[19:50]SPEAKER_01:In the virus world, when it says you should change yourself, you usually ask your friends or your neighbors, is this a safe cell?
[19:58]SPEAKER_01:There's always normally a reputation.
[20:01]SPEAKER_01:authority.
[20:02]SPEAKER_01:So in the system, how do cells attempt to say is this cell, is the instructions, is the signal I'm receiving a real signal?
[20:16]SPEAKER_01:I guess one of the arguments is if you find that there's a cell in the wrong place, you're a liver cell, you shut up in your pancreas, you should kill yourself.
[20:24]SPEAKER_01:Right?
[20:24]SPEAKER_01:Because your neighbors seem not to be on your wavelength.
[20:29]SPEAKER_01:Is that not a good idea?
[20:30]SPEAKER_06:I mean, you know, probably most cancer cells sort of escape from a tumor and try to colonize somewhere else and end up getting killed because they're in the wrong place.
[20:41]SPEAKER_06:They're not sending out the right signals.
[20:43]SPEAKER_06:They clearly don't belong.
[20:45]SPEAKER_06:And so then the surrounding cells send out signals telling them to kill themselves.
[20:52]SPEAKER_06:And, you know, of course that breaks down as soon as you get a mutant that doesn't start killing itself.
[20:56]Right.
[20:58]SPEAKER_04:That's sort of the opposite of deception in some sense.
[21:00]SPEAKER_04:It's an escape that as opposed to tricking someone, you kind of trick yourself into not listening to the signals that are being sent to you to kill yourself.
[21:12]SPEAKER_01:There's no real fake.
[21:14]SPEAKER_01:That's a real strategy.
[21:17]SPEAKER_01:You're not sending out a fake message.
[21:20]SPEAKER_01:I think deception has to have fake...
[21:27]SPEAKER_06:So a lot of, let's see, when viruses infect cells, you know, the immune system recognizes typically that cell as an infected cell because it will be displaying bits of the virus on its surface.
[21:49]SPEAKER_06:And a lot of viruses do things.
[21:51]SPEAKER_06:Essentially, they send out signals saying, no, no, it's okay.
[21:55]Right.
[21:56]SPEAKER_06:That's a very common strategy.
[21:58]SPEAKER_01:Just a sort of a first deception.
[22:00]SPEAKER_01:There's no intent.
[22:02]SPEAKER_01:But do they send out, how is that done?
[22:05]SPEAKER_01:Do they send out random signals and eventually some of them live?
[22:08]SPEAKER_06:No, they'll make molecules that mimic normal cellular components, which are signals that might do things like prevent the display of those neural peptides.
[22:25]SPEAKER_06:Or, you know, otherwise they'll put signals out on the cell surface that will make that cell look normal.
[22:35]SPEAKER_01:Right.
[22:35]SPEAKER_01:So it seems to be very similar to computer things.
[22:38]SPEAKER_01:That's what computers do.
[22:39]SPEAKER_06:Computer things are very similar to what's happening.
[22:45]SPEAKER_05:I mean, actually, in some sense, just even when Apple, if Apple sends you free software updates, in some sense it's just a virus, right?
[22:52]SPEAKER_05:Because
[22:53]SPEAKER_05:updating your software on an older computer inevitably makes it run more slowly.
[22:57]SPEAKER_05:and their goal is simply to get so much new software that you don't have to buy a new computer.
[23:06]SPEAKER_05:I mean, this is actually true.
[23:09]SPEAKER_00:It's true of Apple as well.
[23:13]SPEAKER_05:So updating your software, I mean, it's all kind of like a scam on the part of the computer companies to put their new software into our computers.
[23:21]SPEAKER_01:That's what you think.
[23:21]SPEAKER_01:It's actually a scam for the future computers in mind.
[23:25]SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's right.
[23:27]SPEAKER_01:The future computer had an intent to be born.
[23:30]SPEAKER_04:There's an interesting difference, it seems to me, between the biological viruses and the computer viruses, which is sort of what you were saying, but it's that the...
[23:43]SPEAKER_04:the origination is totally different, where the biological ones are emergent as a result of selection.
[23:50]SPEAKER_06:Evolution versus intelligent design.
[23:52]SPEAKER_06:Exactly, exactly.
[23:54]SPEAKER_05:Some of the most virulent viruses were not supposed to be virulent, right?
[24:01]SPEAKER_05:What was this one in the 1990s?
[24:03]SPEAKER_05:This guy, he just met it to kind of like,
[24:06]SPEAKER_05:slightly infect a whole bunch of computers and just lay low.
[24:09]SPEAKER_05:But because he made a mistake in programming it, it infected a bunch of computers and then went viral and infected vast quantities of computers.
[24:17]SPEAKER_05:So the effect was not intended to bring down all these computers.
[24:22]SPEAKER_06:So you were saying there's never been a naturally emerging virus, but has there ever been just an error in a design virus that actually made it better?
[24:33]SPEAKER_06:Not a human error.
[24:34]SPEAKER_06:That was a human error in the design of errors.
[24:40]SPEAKER_06:But you could imagine, like a copying error that actually made it worse.
[24:44]SPEAKER_06:Does that ever happen?
[24:45]SPEAKER_00:I believe, so this must be the expertise, but I believe that computer programs that people write cannot mutate in the various DNA and RNA in order to give something reason.
[24:58]SPEAKER_06:Well, they're living in an environment with all this error correction.
[25:01]SPEAKER_00:Really, I mean, it's just very accurate.
[25:03]SPEAKER_05:The transcription is extremely accurate.
[25:06]SPEAKER_00:No, but what I mean is, if you write on a C program, and you say, now I make a random, I flip a bit somewhere, that will never do anything better, you know?
[25:14]SPEAKER_00:They are not...