[0:04]We'll go on the record.
[0:07]This is a deposition of Mr. Leslie H. Wexner conducted by the House Committee on Oversight
[0:12]and Government Reform under the authority granted to it pursuant to House Rule 10.
[0:18]Accordingly, House Rule 10 grants the Committee broad jurisdiction for the Committee to conduct
[0:22]investigations of any matter at any time.
[0:26]On January 7, 2026, the Committee voted to approve a motion directing the Chairman
[0:31]to authorize and issue a subpoena to you for a deposition.
[0:35]On January 23, 2026, Chairman Comer issued a subpoena for Mr. Wexner to appear today
[0:42]for a deposition and furtherance of the Committee's investigation into the actions
[0:46]and investigations of Mr. Jeffrey Epstein and Ms. Collane Maxwell.
[0:51]I will enter the subpoena and corresponding cover letter as Exhibit 1.
[1:00]The Committee noticed the deposition for Mr. Wexner on February 9, 2026.
[1:05]I will enter the notice for this deposition as Exhibit 2.
[1:59]Can the witness please state his name and spell his last name for the record?
[2:04]Leslie H. Wexner.
[2:11]Thank you.
[2:12]My name is Leslie H. Wexner.
[2:16]Under the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform's rules, you are allowed to have
[2:19]a council present to advise you during this deposition.
[2:23]Do you have a council representing you in a personal capacity present with you today?
[2:27]Yes.
[2:28]Yes.
[2:29]Will council please identify themselves for the record?
[2:32]Michael Levy of Ellerman and Zena Levy on behalf of Mr. Wexner.
[2:37]Elizabeth Martin with Ellerman and Zena Levy for Mr. Wexner.
[2:41]And Matthew Zeiger from Zeiger Tickets and Little on behalf of Mr. Wexner.
[2:47]For the record, starting with the majority staff, can the additional staff members please
[2:51]introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation?
[2:58]Welcome and sorry Congresswoman from Phoenix, Arizona.
[3:01]Well, first we are making a member, Oversight Committee.
[3:09]Thank you all.
[3:10]Mr. Wexner, before we begin, I would like to go over the ground rules for this deposition.
[3:16]The questioning will proceed in rounds.
[3:18]The majority will ask questions for an hour and then the minority will have an
[3:21]opportunity to ask questions for an hour.
[3:23]If they choose.
[3:25]To the extent members have questions for the witnesses or witness, they will be propounded
[3:29]during their sides respective rounds.
[3:31]The clock will stop if you need to confer with council.
[3:35]Your council is speaking and when members or staff are speaking during the opposing
[3:39]sides rounds of questions, we alternate back and forth until there are no more
[3:45]questions.
[3:46]Do you understand?
[3:47]I think so.
[3:50]There is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say to make a
[3:54]written record of the interview.
[3:56]For the record to be clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you finishes
[4:01]each question before you begin your answer and the staffer will wait until you finish
[4:05]your response before proceeding to the next question.
[4:09]Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this deposition, please speak
[4:13]clearly, concisely, and slowly.
[4:17]Also the court reporter cannot record nonverbal answers such as nodding or shaking your head,
[4:22]so it is important that you answer each question with an audible verbal answer.
[4:26]Do you understand?
[4:27]Yes, I do.
[4:29]Exhibits may be entered into the record.
[4:31]Majority exhibits will be identified numerically.
[4:34]Minority exhibits will be identified alphabetically.
[4:37]Do you understand?
[4:38]Yes.
[4:39]We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and truthful manner possible,
[4:44]so we will take our time.
[4:46]If you have any questions or do not fully understand the question, please let us know.
[4:50]We will attempt to clarify, add context to, or rephrase our questions.
[4:55]We ask about specific conversations or events in the past and you are unable to recall
[4:59]the exact words or details.
[5:02]You should testify to the substance of those conversations or events for the best
[5:06]of your recollection.
[5:07]If you recall only a part of a conversation or event, you should give us your best
[5:12]recollection of those events or parts of the conversations that you do recall.
[5:16]Do you understand?
[5:18]I think I do.
[5:21]You are required by law to answer questions from Congress truthfully.
[5:26]This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in this deposition.
[5:30]Do you understand?
[5:31]Yes.
[5:32]If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you could be subject to criminal
[5:36]prosecution, including but not limited to perjury.
[5:39]Do you understand?
[5:40]Yes.
[5:41]This includes both knowingly providing false testimony, but also stating that you do
[5:46]not recall or remember something when in fact you do.
[5:49]Do you understand?
[5:51]Yes, of course.
[5:52]Furthermore, you cannot tell half truths or exclude information necessary to make
[5:56]the statements accurate.
[5:58]You are required to provide all information that would make your response truthful.
[6:04]A deliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement.
[6:08]Do you understand?
[6:09]Yes.
[6:11]Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's interview?
[6:15]No.
[6:17]None.
[6:19]Please note, if you wish to assert a privilege over any statement today, that
[6:23]assertion must comply with the rules of the Committee on Oversight and
[6:26]Government Reform.
[6:28]Pursuant to that, Committee Rule 16C1 states for the Chair to consider
[6:31]assertions of privilege over testimony or statements, witnesses or entities must
[6:36]clearly state the specific privilege being asserted and the reason for the
[6:39]assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or appearance.
[6:45]For the purposes of this deposition, objections must be stated concisely and
[6:49]in a non-argumentative and non-suggestive manner.
[6:52]If the witness refuses to answer a question to preserve a privilege, the
[6:56]Committee may seek a ruling from the Chair.
[6:59]If the Chair overrules any such objection, the witness shall be ordered to answer.
[7:04]If the witness continues to refuse to answer a question despite being ordered
[7:08]to do so, the witness may be subject to sanction.
[7:10]Do you understand?
[7:11]Yes.
[7:13]Ordinarily, we take a five-minute break at the end of each hour of questioning,
[7:17]but if you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know
[7:21]and we will be happy to accommodate.
[7:24]However, to the extent that there is a pending question, we would ask that
[7:27]you finish answering the question before we take a break.
[7:30]Do you understand?
[7:31]Yes.
[7:33]Finally, I will note for everyone here today that the contents of what we
[7:37]discussed in the deposition is confidential under the House Deposition Regulation.
[7:42]Under the rules, the Chairman and ranking minority members shall consult
[7:46]before any release of testimony or transcripts, including portions thereof.
[7:51]This means it is a violation of House and Committee rules to disclose
[7:55]contents of this deposition prior to its official release.
[8:00]For this reason, the marked exhibits that we will use today will remain
[8:04]with the court reporter so that they can go into the official transcript,
[8:09]and any copies of those exhibits will be kept at the table or returned to us
[8:14]when we wrap up.
[8:16]Can the reporter please swear in the witness?
[8:20]Would you raise your right hand for me, please?
[8:22]Do you solemnly declare and affirm under penalty of perjury that the
[8:25]testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
[8:27]and nothing but the truth?
[8:28]Absolutely.
[8:33]Do you have any questions before we begin?
[8:37]I'd like a cup of hot coffee.
[8:42]Do you mind?
[8:43]No, some could get it, but...
[8:45]We can go off the record.
[8:51]We will go back on the record.
[8:55]Another member of Congress joined.
[8:57]Can he please identify himself for the record?
[8:59]Dave Mann, California court step.
[9:02]Thank you for being here.
[9:02]Dave Mann at the California court step.
[9:06]Sorry?
[9:08]Amen.
[9:10]California court step.
[9:14]The time reads 10.17, and the majority's time will begin now.
[9:20]Mr. Wexner, is it true that you submitted a statement to the
[9:24]committee this morning?
[9:26]Yes, I did.
[9:27]I will now enter as exhibit one the statement of Leslie H.
[9:31]It's exhibit three because you've...
[9:33]Oh, exhibit three, excuse me.
[9:35]The statement of Leslie H. Wexner submitted the committee on
[9:38]Oversight and Government Reform, February 18th, 2026.
[9:48]Mr. Wexner, let's start by briefly discussing your education
[9:53]and experience.
[9:54]Where did you attend undergraduate school?
[9:56]The Ohio State University.
[9:58]And what degree did you graduate with?
[10:00]Business degree.
[10:02]And I know you had a long career, but can you briefly
[10:06]summarize your professional career for the committee?
[10:16]I was raised in a very poor family, and we had no money.
[10:19]And I had an aunt, Ida, and she gave me, loaned me her
[10:23]life savings, which was $5,000.
[10:26]And on the end of the state, I could put it in the
[10:28]bank so it appeared that I'd have money.
[10:31]And I could borrow money from a bank, and I opened a
[10:33]store in 1963.
[10:36]And I opened a store every year for the next five or
[10:38]six years.
[10:40]And so by 1969, I had six stores.
[10:45]I took that company public, not to raise money, because it
[10:49]was remarkably successful.
[10:52]And I wanted the associates of the business to own a
[10:56]piece of the business.
[10:57]So I gave stock to virtually everybody that worked in the
[11:01]stores and the back rooms and cleaning people.
[11:06]I'm very proud of that.
[11:08]And then opened more stores and more stores and figured out
[11:13]at one point that there was a limit to how many limited
[11:16]stores I could open.
[11:18]So I invented a second business called Express and
[11:23]opened up more and more stores.
[11:25]And what the business then turned into was the largest
[11:31]multi-division fashion specialty business
[11:36]in the world.
[11:38]And in hindsight, I kind of invented multi-store national
[11:43]and international store retailing.
[11:47]And just a remarkable, as I look back, I don't know how I
[11:52]did it, but probably in my lifetime, I opened 10,000
[11:56]stores around the world, probably 20 different brands.
[12:01]So that's what I did.
[12:03]And that's what I did in business.
[12:10]I started to tell you what I do personally, but that's
[12:14]another story.
[12:17]Thank you.
[12:18]Let's move on to your relationship with
[12:21]Mr. Epstein.
[12:23]When did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein?
[12:29]Probably 35 years ago, 40 years ago.
[12:34]I don't remember exactly.
[12:39]And met him through friends.
[12:41]Approximately what year would you have met him?
[12:52]Probably between 80 and 85.
[12:55]I don't remember.
[12:56]And how did you first come to meet Mr. Epstein?
[13:01]It was really by accident.
[13:05]I was friends with a couple, Bob and Wendy Meister.
[13:11]I was in Florida, and I'd never been to Florida.
[13:16]So they were driving me around, showing me what South
[13:18]Florida looked like.
[13:22]And they showed me the Breaker's Hotel, and they
[13:23]were just driving around the driveway.
[13:26]And Bob stopped the car, and he said, there's somebody
[13:29]you should meet, a really smart, savvy guy named
[13:34]Jeffrey Epstein.
[13:35]And so they stopped the car.
[13:37]I was sitting in the back seat.
[13:40]They introduced me to Jeffrey, and we drove off.
[13:43]That was about it.
[13:44]So at that time, you had no knowledge of Mr. Epstein
[13:47]until Mr. Meister introduced you to him?
[13:52]Never heard of him, never saw him, never met him.
[13:56]Did Mr. Meister ever raise any concerns
[13:58]about Mr. Epstein?
[14:01]No.
[14:03]He didn't.
[14:05]And you meet him in Florida.
[14:08]What's your first impression of Mr. Epstein?
[14:15]Kind of a medium, dark-haired guy.
[14:18]I don't remember saying much more hello, shaking his
[14:21]hands or maybe nodding from the back seat of the car.
[14:24]What was your first impression of Mr. Epstein?
[14:28]Just a guy about medium height and with dark hair.
[14:31]At that time, did you have any understanding of what
[14:34]he did for work?
[14:35]No.
[14:37]Did you understand Mr. Epstein to already be
[14:40]wealthy when you met him?
[14:41]No.
[14:54]At this time, I'd like to introduce what will be
[14:56]marked as Majority Exhibit 4.
[15:00]This is a Vanity Fair article entitled Inside
[15:03]Jeffrey Epstein's Bond with Les Wexner from 2021.
[15:09]The article reports on the origins of your relationship
[15:12]with Mr. Wexner.
[15:31]I'll note a hearsay objection for the record.
[15:37]I'll note a hearsay objection for the record.
[15:40]For the record here, federalist evidence do not
[15:43]apply to congressional deposition.
[15:46]I'm noting my objection.
[15:47]I'm not instructing him not to answer.
[15:48]I'm noting that this is hearsay.
[15:49]That's all.
[15:59]So in the article, it says that you met Epstein
[16:03]sometime around 1986.
[16:07]Consistent with your testimony today, it says
[16:09]that you were introduced by Mr. Maeser.
[16:15]Do you agree with the article's characterization?
[16:17]I don't know him.
[16:19]I've never seen the article.
[16:23]Do you agree with the article's characterization
[16:26]that you met Mr. Epstein through Mr. Maeser?
[16:31]In fact, he said he didn't read it.
[16:33]What characterization are you referring to?
[16:44]Go off the record.
[16:48]So you previously testified that Mr. Maeser introduced
[16:51]you to Epstein.
[16:51]Is that right?
[16:53]Maeser introduced me.
[16:55]Bob and Wendy introduced me to Jeffrey Epstein.
[16:59]And at that time, what was your relationship with Bob
[17:01]and Wendy Maeser?
[17:02]Well, I met Bob because he was an international insurance
[17:09]broker.
[17:10]And they had our business insurance business.
[17:15]And Bob wanted me to meet his wife.
[17:17]And Bob and Wendy became friends.
[17:26]Did you trust Mr. Maeser with advice?
[17:36]Well, I trust him with insurance advice,
[17:39]because that's what he did.
[17:42]He was the vice chairman of an international insurance company.
[17:46]But I didn't trust him for business advice or anything
[17:51]beyond the scope of what his profession was.
[17:57]I want to direct your attention
[17:58]to page nine of the article.
[18:10]And we're specifically looking at the paragraph, the sixth
[18:13]paragraph from the bottom.
[18:14]It starts in September 1997.
[18:44]And when you're ready, I'll read the relevant.
[18:47]I just read that paragraph.
[18:55]It reads, in September 1997, Wexner
[18:58]celebrated his 60th birthday with a dinner
[19:00]at his Ohio estate.
[19:02]Maeser says he used the occasion
[19:04]to once again tell Wexner how untrustworthy Epstein was.
[19:08]My wife and I told him and Abigail hundreds of times
[19:11]to stay away from Epstein.
[19:15]Mr. Wexner, do you recall this occurring?
[19:17]Objection.
[19:18]Double hearsay.
[19:20]Are you directing your witness to not the witness
[19:22]to not answer the question?
[19:23]No, no, no.
[19:23]I will direct the witness not to answer if that's my intent.
[19:27]I'm just raising an objection to the record.
[19:33]As far as I understand this, I never
[19:36]had a birthday party for myself.
[19:38]In fact, I never had birthday parties.
[19:41]My mom and dad just didn't do that.
[19:44]And Abigail's been great, because every milestone
[19:48]birthday has been a surprise party.
[19:51]And I think, I don't remember for sure,
[19:54]but the 60th birthday party, if Senator Lieberman was there
[20:00]and Marshall Rose was there, Shimon Perez was there,
[20:07]John Glenn was there, Max Fisher was there,
[20:16]and I don't think Maeser was there.
[20:18]Let me ask you a different question.
[20:20]So he never said this.
[20:22]He wasn't there and didn't ever said this.
[20:24]Let me ask you a different question, Mr. Wexner.
[20:29]Do you recall Mr. Maeser and his wife
[20:32]repeatedly warning you to stay away from Epstein?
[20:35]Never.
[20:41]I want to now direct your attention to the fifth page.
[20:51]And we are looking at the sixth full paragraph.
[20:57]You want to start soon after?
[20:59]Yes.
[21:14]I assume it's OK for me to help him identify
[21:16]the right paragraph.
[21:17]Yes.
[21:38]Yeah, just read it.
[21:41]For the record, it reads, soon after introducing
[21:43]Wexner and Epstein, Maeser started
[21:45]hearing disturbing stories about Epstein's
[21:47]sexual pro-colivities.
[21:49]Think of whatever the worst thing anyone could do is,
[21:52]and Epstein did them all, Maeser said.
[21:56]Did Maeser ever express concerns
[21:59]related to Mr. Epstein's sexual pro-colivities?
[22:02]Never.
[22:03]Objection, double hearsay.
[22:05]He answered.
[22:05]Never.
[22:09]The very next sentence continues,
[22:11]Mr. Epstein showed up unannounced
[22:12]at Maeser's Park Avenue apartment
[22:15]with five models for Maeser's sexual entertainment.
[22:20]Epstein thought he was bringing me a gift,
[22:23]according to Mr. Maeser.
[22:25]Were you aware of this occurring?
[22:27]Objection, double hearsay.
[22:29]No.
[22:30]Did Mr. Epstein ever present you
[22:32]with women for your sexual entertainment?
[22:34]Absolutely not.
[22:51]Mr. Wexner?
[22:52]Are we done?
[22:53]Are we done with that exhibit?
[22:54]We are.
[22:58]Mr. Wexner, at any time, did Jeffrey Epstein
[23:01]ever inform or represent to you that he
[23:04]was a part of any intelligence service of any nation,
[23:08]including the United States?
[23:09]Absolutely not.
[23:11]Did you ever learn that he was involved
[23:12]with any intelligence service?
[23:17]Never.
[23:18]Never.
[23:23]Let's move on to talking about Ms. Maxwell.
[23:28]When did you first meet Elaine Maxwell?
[23:30]Probably about the time that I got engaged to Abigail.
[23:41]So it must have been about 1990.
[23:51]And do you recall how you met Ms. Maxwell?
[23:56]Jeffrey wanted me to meet the person he was going to marry.
[23:59]And I was engaged to Abigail.
[24:03]And period.
[24:08]Do you have any recollection of where you met Ms. Maxwell?
[24:12]No.
[24:14]And based on your testimony, is it
[24:16]fair to say that Mr. Epstein introduced you to Maxwell?
[24:21]Absolutely, yeah, sure.
[24:24]And you mentioned it previously,
[24:26]but what was your understanding of Ms. Maxwell's relationship
[24:30]to Mr. Epstein?
[24:34]They dated, they were in love,
[24:35]they were going to get married.
[24:40]Would you characterize it as a monogamous relationship?
[24:43]I thought so.
[24:44]So during this period, you had no knowledge of Mr. Epstein
[24:48]ever having any relationship with any man or woman
[24:52]besides Ms. Maxwell?
[24:56]No, no.
[24:57]Didn't.
[25:01]How would you characterize your relationship
[25:03]with Ms. Maxwell?
[25:14]Wendy Meister was Bob's wife.
[25:16]We were friendly and friends.
[25:23]I met Galan Maxwell because she was Jeffrey's girlfriend
[25:29]and my fiance, it never went beyond that.
[25:33]I knew she was smart.
[25:35]I think she was an honors graduate of Cambridge
[25:37]or something.
[25:39]So she was like, you know, spoke with an English accent,
[25:41]so I thought he was really lucky because he finally
[25:44]met somebody that was really smart and nice.
[25:48]And you said that Ms. Maxwell was Epstein's fiance,
[25:53]so was your understanding that they
[25:54]were engaged to be married?
[25:59]I don't remember if they were engaged to be married
[26:03]or they were planning to get married,
[26:05]but I was engaged and they talked about they
[26:09]were going to get married, so I
[26:12]don't know if it was engagement or just they
[26:14]both agreed.
[26:18]During your relationship with Ms. Maxwell,
[26:21]how often did you see her?
[26:25]Very few times.
[26:40]Mr. Wexner, the committee is investigating
[26:43]the circumstances surrounding Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell
[26:47]and the trafficking of young women,
[26:49]trafficking and sexual abuse of young women or girls.
[26:54]Did Ms. Maxwell ever introduce you
[26:57]to any young woman or girl?
[27:02]No, I don't think she ever introduced me
[27:05]to any female or man.
[27:10]Did Ms. Maxwell ever ask you to introduce a young woman
[27:14]or girl to your friends or associates?
[27:19]No.
[27:23]Did you ever introduce any young woman or girl
[27:26]that you met through Ms. Maxwell to any of your friends
[27:28]or associates?
[27:30]Objection assumes, in fact, not in evidence.
[27:35]You're fine.
[27:35]That's all.
[27:36]Just the right to answer the question.
[27:37]That's fine.
[27:38]Give me the question.
[27:40]I think the answer is no, but let's.
[27:41]Did you ever introduce any woman or girl
[27:44]that you met through Ms. Maxwell to any of your friends
[27:47]or associates?
[27:48]No, never.
[27:54]Did Ms. Maxwell ever visit your home in New Albany, Ohio?
[27:59]I don't recall.
[28:14]We're going to discuss your business relationship
[28:16]with Mr. Epstein in more detail later,
[28:19]but did Ms. Maxwell ever play
[28:21]a role in your business relationship with Epstein?
[28:25]Never, none.
[28:33]During your relationship with Ms. Maxwell,
[28:35]did she ever represent or inform you
[28:37]that she was a part of any intelligence service
[28:40]of any nation, including the United States?
[28:42]No.
[28:47]Did you ever meet Ghislain's father, Robert Maxwell?
[28:51]No.
[29:02]When did you hire Mr. Epstein to officially work for you?
[29:07]I think it was about the mid-'80s.
[29:12]Do you have any recollection of how long
[29:13]you knew Mr. Epstein prior to you hiring him?
[29:25]Not specifically.
[29:28]Maybe I met him in a visit in the car,
[29:33]and maybe it was six months or a year later
[29:36]that I asked Bob about, I needed somebody to help me.
[29:42]And I think he said, did you talk to Jeffrey Epstein?
[29:45]I think so.
[29:46]I'm guessing from when I met him first
[29:49]to actually having a conversation,
[29:51]it was probably a year.
[29:54]Just to clarify, that's not actually the time
[29:57]that you hired him, though.
[29:58]That's the time you had the conversation.
[29:59]Yeah.
[30:02]Yes, that's for the record.
[30:04]You don't recall the exact days that you hired him.
[30:06]No, I don't.
[30:09]Another member of Congress has joined us.
[30:12]Can she please introduce herself for the record?
[30:15]Yeah, he's at the 12th Congressional District
[30:18]in Michigan.
[30:19]And Mr. Marsden, can you please
[30:20]say a voice just a little bit?
[30:22]He is trying.
[30:23]I keep telling him he's trying.
[30:28]Speak more.
[30:29]Better if I sat more in the middle.
[30:33]We have the video set up.
[30:35]I'll try to speak louder.
[30:37]If I'm not speaking, if you waver something,
[30:39]it'll remind me.
[30:43]Mr. Wexner, would you characterize
[30:45]your relationship with Mr. Epstein
[30:47]at least initially to be solely business related?
[30:50]Yes.
[30:51]Did you at any time ever consider
[30:54]him to be a close friend?
[30:56]No.
[31:04]How often did you interact with Mr. Epstein
[31:06]throughout your relationship?
[31:16]A lot of phone conversations.
[31:18]But meetings didn't see him much.
[31:27]I was traveling a lot because of business.
[31:34]And it was erratic.
[31:35]He might call three times in an hour
[31:37]and not talk to him for three months.
[31:40]That's how I remember it.
[31:50]When you were interacting with Mr. Epstein,
[31:53]did you enjoy spending time with him?
[32:00]Enjoyment was fun.
[32:01]No, it was work.
[32:05]Can you elaborate on that?
[32:06]What were the nature of your interactions
[32:09]with Mr. Epstein?
[32:14]Professional.
[32:16]This is what's going on.
[32:17]Have you paid this bill?
[32:18]Do you know about that?
[32:20]I took an inventory of your house
[32:23]and no one had ever taken an inventory
[32:25]of your furniture.
[32:26]Do you know how much furniture you have?
[32:27]And it was like, no, I never thought about it.
[32:29]Well, you should know that I have an inventory.
[32:32]Things are buttoned up.
[32:33]It was like what an office would.
[32:39]I don't think I can explain it.
[32:43]It's like people talk about family offices.
[32:47]And I'd managed all my stuff, or my admin paid my bills
[32:53]because I was so busy.
[32:54]And I realized there was a complexity
[32:56]in my personal life.
[32:57]And somebody had to just do this stuff
[33:01]because it wasn't getting done.
[33:03]And so it was like professional.
[33:09]I guess what a fiduciary would do more than what
[33:14]just your accountant would do or your lawyer would do.
[33:17]And something I thought was unfair for my secretary
[33:20]to do.
[33:21]And you testified that at times,
[33:27]he would call you three times a day.
[33:28]Is that a fair characterization of your testimony?
[33:31]No.
[33:32]What I'm saying is that he would call me three times,
[33:35]maybe in an hour, if he wanted to tell me something
[33:38]about what he was doing or would ask me
[33:40]a question about taxes so he could understand
[33:42]what he was preparing.
[33:44]And then he might not call me for three months,
[33:46]maybe six months.
[33:47]I couldn't pay attention.
[33:50]It wasn't important at the time.
[33:53]Mr. Lechner, is it your testimony today
[33:56]that your conversation with your lawyer
[33:59]today that your conversations with Mr. Ebsen
[34:04]were predominantly focused on your business relationship
[34:08]with him?
[34:09]That would be very accurate.
[34:10]That would be very accurate.
[34:16]What common interests did you share with Mr. Ebsen
[34:19]outside of work?
[34:22]None.
[34:24]So you didn't have any personal relationship
[34:27]with Mr. Ebsen whatsoever?
[34:32]I don't think I ever went to lunch or dinner or a movie
[34:35]or had a cup of coffee with Jeffrey.
[34:39]And I thought about that recently.
[34:44]I'd say the same thing about my attorney.
[34:46]I'd never been to his office.
[34:48]My current attorney, who's been our family attorney
[34:51]for 30 years, how could you?
[34:55]I mean, I can't explain to myself
[34:56]how I could have an attorney who's
[34:59]lives in Columbus, who's my personal attorney,
[35:01]and I'm friendly with, and never visit his office.
[35:04]I just, my focus was on my business,
[35:09]and my focus was on community before my family.
[35:15]That is, before my family existed.
[35:18]Until your family not existed.
[35:19]Yeah, that's a better way of phrasing it.
[35:25]It's a general question.
[35:26]But approximately how many years
[35:28]were you associated with Mr. Ebsen?
[35:36]I don't recall exactly.
[35:41]And to be clear, you at no point
[35:45]ever considered him to be a friend.
[35:51]No, I didn't see Jeffrey as a friend.
[35:55]I saw Jeffrey, as I see Matt, my attorney, as friend.
[36:01]We're friendly, but we're not friends.
[36:06]I mean, obviously, someone that worked for you in a trust
[36:08]position that you're friendly with.
[36:11]You're not in a hostile, adversarial argument
[36:15]of position with the people that are advising you.
[36:21]It's been reported repeatedly that you were close friends
[36:27]with Mr. Ebsen.
[36:28]Why do you think people would come to that conclusion?
[36:33]Objection, you're saying?
[36:42]Speculation, because he would tell him that.
[36:47]But he told me he was friends.
[36:49]If you told me that you were friends with Bill Clinton,
[36:52]I would believe it.
[36:53]Or if anybody told me somebody was a friend,
[36:56]I would believe it.
[36:58]So I think the perspective that I have now
[37:07]and I think it's really important for this group
[37:09]to understand is that as I look back at it,
[37:13]I was conned by the world Olympic all-time con artist.
[37:20]And you look at, I read in the news all the people he knew,
[37:25]royalty, kings, princes, and all that.
[37:29]An incredible con artist.
[37:34]Do you think Mr. Ebsen thought you two to be friends?
[37:40]Objection.
[37:44]I don't know what he thought.
[37:52]When did you learn that the Palm Beach Police Department
[37:56]was investigating Mr. Ebsen?
[38:03]I don't recall.
[38:06]Mr. Ebsen was convicted in 2008.
[38:11]Did you maintain any contact with Mr. Ebsen
[38:13]after his plea deal?
[38:20]As I recall, concomitantly with Abigail
[38:24]taking over the finances, my wife is a M&A lawyer.
[38:29]She worked for Davis Polk.
[38:30]She's really smart.
[38:32]And she took over the finances and concomitantly
[38:36]she was discovering that he stole money from us
[38:40]and concomitantly finding out about these accusations
[38:45]and the criminal activity that he pursued.
[38:48]And when we found out about it,
[38:52]we severed relationships with him immediately.
[38:57]Mr. Weichner, I appreciate the context,
[38:59]but when was the last time you were in contact
[39:03]with Mr. Ebsen?
[39:04]I have no recall.
[39:08]Did you have any contact with Mr. Ebsen after 2008?
[39:16]What happened in 2008 again?
[39:19]Mr. Ebsen entered a plea deal
[39:25]related to the solicitation of minors.
[39:29]Oh, OK.
[39:35]Never talked to him, never saw him,
[39:37]as far as I was concerned.
[39:39]Once we knew how bad he was, he was dead.
[39:45]Did Mr. Ebsen ever ask you for personal favors of any kind?
[39:51]Not that I recall.
[39:53]Did you ever ask Mr. Ebsen for personal favors of any kind?
[39:57]No.
[40:01]How involved was Mr. Ebsen in your personal life?
[40:15]I mean, think about that.
[40:24]Not at all, really.
[40:26]I think he met Abigail after we were engaged,
[40:29]and he didn't know we were going to be engaged.
[40:32]So I didn't discuss my personal life with him or anything.
[40:43]He was kind of the business manager of my personal affairs.
[40:46]And at the time, I probably had 20 CEOs reporting to me.
[40:52]And so I was used to having business relationships
[40:56]with people, whether it's attorneys, accountants,
[41:01]investment banks that we were doing business with,
[41:04]commercial banks.
[41:05]But I never had personal relationships with people
[41:10]that I worked with.
[41:11]I was pretty much a loner.
[41:15]Is it true that Mr. Ebsen oversaw
[41:17]your prenuptial agreement?
[41:20]I don't recall that I had one.
[41:24]If you did, would you consider that
[41:25]to be a business transaction between you and Mr. Ebsen?
[41:32]Judging calls for speculation, but you can answer.
[41:35]If I had one, I would guess I would have talked to my attorney.
[41:40]Was Mr. Ebsen involved in hiring personal staff?
[41:54]I think the answer is none.
[41:57]I can't remember anybody that he would have
[42:01]met that I hired personally.
[42:05]And personally, I'm thinking also business and household
[42:08]staff, people like that.
[42:12]I can't think of an exception.
[42:17]We will discuss your financial relationship with Mr. Ebsen
[42:21]in greater detail later.
[42:22]But broadly, did Mr. Ebsen ever
[42:24]ask you for any financial favors?
[42:38]Let's talk about your property here in New Albany.
[42:43]When did you first buy the New Albany property?
[43:01]Probably in the early mid-'80s,
[43:04]I started buying property as land.
[43:09]This was what you saw today if you drove around New Albany.
[43:13]This was all farmland.
[43:15]Where the house was was a sod farm.
[43:18]So it was just in the country.
[43:22]Did Mr. Ebsen play any role in the acquisition
[43:25]of the property?
[43:26]No.
[43:27]Did he play any role in the development of New Albany?
[43:31]Oh, no.
[43:35]On your property, would you often
[43:39]conduct business meetings?
[43:41]Would he?
[43:42]Would you?
[43:45]With whom?
[43:46]With anyone he's doing business with.
[43:49]OK, including L Brands?
[43:50]Yes.
[43:53]I think the only business meetings
[43:55]we ever had in the house were business meetings
[43:59]in L Brands, community meetings, some university
[44:03]meetings.
[44:04]But no, I don't think we ever had like a New Albany meeting.
[44:08]As a business in the house, we'd
[44:11]have it at the New Albany office.
[44:17]Mr. Wexner, did you ever meet with, socialize with,
[44:21]or otherwise engage with Jeffrey Ebsen at your New
[44:23]Albany, Ohio home?
[44:26]Say it again.
[44:27]Did you ever meet with, socialize with, or otherwise
[44:30]engage with Jeffrey Ebsen at your New Albany home?
[44:38]I'm sure he was in the house, but I
[44:40]can't remember a specific time.
[44:43]I don't remember setting meetings with Jeffrey.
[44:49]Most of the business I had with him was over the phone.
[44:52]Was over the phone.
[44:56]Most of the business was over the phone.
[45:00]Do you have any recollection of when
[45:02]he first visited the property?
[45:06]No.
[45:07]And do you have any recollection of how often
[45:12]he would visit the property?
[45:14]No.
[45:23]So is it your testimony today that you would not
[45:28]have been aware of every time you visited the property
[45:31]here in New Albany?
[45:33]Without question, I wouldn't have known.
[45:39]Something to explain to you is that I wonder about now.
[45:44]Jeffrey would call the office, and my admin
[45:47]would say, Mr. Epstein's on the phone.
[45:49]He has to talk to you right away.
[45:51]And I'd pick up the phone and say, what is it?
[45:53]And he'd say, well, I'm in Switzerland
[45:55]talking to a Swiss bank about something.
[45:59]And he'd try to explain it to me.
[46:01]He said, well, you wouldn't understand the transaction.
[46:03]It's really complex, and I'm really busy,
[46:06]but I needed to tell you this or know that.
[46:09]And I'd say I'm in the middle of a meeting,
[46:11]and I'd hang up.
[46:12]And then, as I said earlier, 15 minutes later,
[46:15]he might call me back.
[46:16]And I'd look at it now and say,
[46:17]he was probably in bed in New York.
[46:19]I didn't know where the hell he was.
[46:23]Were you aware that Mr. Epstein
[46:24]stayed on your property?
[46:29]I know he bought Jack Kessler's house,
[46:33]but I don't know when he was there.
[46:35]And that wasn't on your property?
[46:37]No.
[46:38]That's in my neighbor's property,
[46:41]my business partner in New Albany's friend,
[46:44]or his house, right?
[46:46]Were you aware that Mr. Epstein stayed
[46:50]at one of your guesthouse on the property?
[46:58]No.
[46:59]The house he stayed at was Jack Kessler's house,
[47:01]which is an adjacent property.
[47:03]It's about a half mile away.
[47:10]Mr. Wexner, Epstein's survivor, Maria Farmer,
[47:13]was reportedly brought to the guesthouse
[47:15]located on your property in 1996.
[47:18]Objection.
[47:18]He's already told you it wasn't on his property.
[47:22]I am only bringing up the recollection
[47:30]of an Epstein survivor, for the record.
[47:32]Your client is welcome to provide a statement.
[47:36]So again, Maria Farmer was reportedly
[47:38]brought to the guesthouse in 1996.
[47:42]She stayed there for a summer and claimed
[47:44]she was assaulted there by Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell.
[47:47]Mr. Wexner, do you recall who Maria Farmer is?
[47:53]I know her name from the press.
[47:55]Did you ever meet Maria Farmer?
[47:57]Never.
[48:04]Is it your testimony today that you do not
[48:06]know whether Maria Farmer's ever stayed on your property?
[48:10]That would be correct.
[48:16]Do you have any reason to not believe
[48:18]Maria Farmer's account of being abused by Jeffrey
[48:21]Epstein on your property?
[48:24]Objection.
[48:26]On his property.
[48:33]Let me be sure I answer this correctly.
[48:35]I never met her.
[48:36]Didn't know she was here.
[48:38]Didn't know she was abused.
[48:48]You have a large staff that works
[48:50]on your property in New Albany?
[48:54]The reason I'm laughing, I don't know.
[48:56]There's a lot of people around,
[48:57]but I don't know how many.
[48:58]Can you estimate how many people
[49:01]are working on the property at any given time?
[49:10]20.
[49:11]Do you have private security on the property?
[49:15]I've had private security since 1975.
[49:25]Are you aware of allegations that security staff
[49:28]on the property stayed with Maria Farmer
[49:31]until her family was able to pick her up?
[49:36]I didn't know she was here, so I didn't know her.
[49:40]I didn't know she was here, so I didn't know shit about her.
[49:43]Pardon me.
[50:02]And I believe that you testified to this earlier,
[50:06]but to your recollection, did Mr. Epsien personally
[50:09]own property near your home?
[50:13]He bought the house from Jack, so half a mile away,
[50:17]if that's near.
[50:20]Was that the address at the 7500 block of King George
[50:23]Drive?
[50:25]I don't know that address.
[50:30]Are you aware of the entity New Albany Company LLC?
[50:35]I think that's what we call the New Albany Company.
[50:39]Why was this LLC organized?
[50:45]Because it made business sense.
[50:47]What was the LLC used for?
[50:50]I assume it was for the New Albany Project.
[50:54]Was Jeffrey Epsien involved with this entity?
[50:59]Only to the degree as fiduciary financial advisor
[51:03]would be, as Dennis Hirsch was,
[51:07]it was a complex project, and if you would,
[51:14]the family office would look at it.
[51:16]To be clear, the LLC was used to develop surrounding
[51:20]properties in New Albany?
[51:21]I don't know that.
[51:23]I would assume that it's in an LLC,
[51:25]or it could be the New Albany Company or Corp or Inc.
[51:29]I don't really know that.
[51:34]How would Jeffrey Epsien travel to New Albany
[51:37]in the beginning of your relationship with him?
[51:42]I would assume he flew, and either that or he took
[51:45]the train or drove.
[51:46]Did he fly on your plane?
[51:52]Very rarely.
[51:55]When he did fly on your plane,
[51:56]did you charge him for using it?
[52:01]I don't think so.
[52:03]Do you have any recollection of when you first
[52:07]would have started providing flights to Mr. Epsien?
[52:15]I think that's kind of a trick question.
[52:16]I don't think I ever provided flights for Mr. Epsien.
[52:23]And you testified that he very rarely flew on your airplane.
[52:29]Can you elaborate on that?
[52:35]The only time I really remember that I mentioned earlier,
[52:38]my wife would have surprise parties.
[52:41]As I'd get on the airplane, and there'd be acquaintances,
[52:46]friends, and I was always shocked who was there
[52:51]or some people might fly to wherever the party was,
[52:55]which was always a surprise to me.
[52:56]And then some of guest friends would be at the party
[53:00]when I got there, and that was another surprise.
[53:03]So I don't remember specifics.
[53:07]So Mr. Epsien would have been invited
[53:08]to surprise parties for you?
[53:14]Obviously so, because he was there.
[53:16]You testified earlier that you didn't consider him a friend.
[53:22]Do you invite people you don't consider to be friends
[53:26]to surprise parties?
[53:28]Objection assumes that he invited them.
[53:35]Can you answer that again?
[53:38]Why would Mr. Epsien have been invited
[53:41]to these surprise parties?
[53:42]My wife would have invited him.
[53:44]Why do you think your wife would have invited him?
[53:47]Because he's our financial advisor.
[53:50]Did your wife consider him a friend?
[53:53]No, I don't think so.
[53:57]Can we take a quick break?
[53:59]Yes, we can go off the record.
[54:02]Oh, we need to wait.
[54:03]Oh, sorry.
[54:04]Excuse me.
[54:04]We'll go off the record.
[54:08]We can go back on the record.
[54:10]The time is 11.10.
[54:12]We took a short break for the witness
[54:14]to confer with counsel.
[54:15]We have approximately 15 minutes left in the majority's hour.
[54:19]We understand that the witness would
[54:22]like to make a statement of clarification.
[54:26]Yeah, I think I was inaccurate in that I remember Jeffrey
[54:31]being on a plane at a surprise birthday party,
[54:35]but I don't remember him being at the party.
[54:39]Because I think you asked the question, at the party,
[54:41]and then where did he go?
[54:43]I don't remember him being at the party.
[54:47]I can remember being on the plane.
[54:50]You bring up the surprise party on the plane.
[54:53]Do you recall where the plane was going?
[54:56]This party wasn't on the plane.
[55:00]Where was this surprise party?
[55:03]I don't.
[55:05]There were a bunch of men.
[55:06]I don't remember specifically which one it was.
[55:11]Were you on every flight with Mr. Epstein
[55:13]when you traveled on your plane?
[55:18]Objection.
[55:19]How is he supposed to know that?
[55:24]If he doesn't, he's one who's
[55:25]satisfied that he doesn't know.
[55:27]Say the question again.
[55:28]Would Mr. Epstein ever use your plane
[55:31]while you were not present?
[55:33]Never.
[55:35]Did Mr. Epstein have to ask you for permission
[55:37]to use your plane?
[55:41]He would have, but he never did.
[55:47]In regards to using your plane, would you consider?
[55:50]It wasn't my plane.
[55:51]It was the business's.
[55:53]The business had an aircraft.
[55:54]We didn't own our own airplane till maybe 15 or 20 years ago.
[56:04]And he wasn't on that plane either.
[56:07]Do you recall Ms. Maxwell being present
[56:12]when you were traveling on your company's plane?
[56:16]No.
[56:20]Do you recall if Mr. Epstein would bring other guests
[56:23]besides Ms. Maxwell while traveling on your company's
[56:27]plane?
[56:29]No.
[56:46]There's an address at the 7500 block of King George Drive.
[56:49]Are you familiar with that property?
[56:52]No, not familiar with that address.
[57:27]Mr. Wexner, how did Mr. Epstein
[57:32]act towards women or girls around him?
[57:38]In his presence?
[57:39]In your presence, yes.
[57:48]I guess the answer would be normal and nice.
[57:54]He would send my secretary or admin flowers for a birthday.
[58:00]Courteous, I would say.
[58:04]Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein
[58:06]have sexual contact of any kind with young women or girls?
[58:11]Absolutely not.
[58:13]Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein sexually
[58:15]abuse young women or girls?
[58:18]Absolutely not.
[58:19]Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein receive massages
[58:22]from young women or girls?
[58:24]Absolutely not.
[58:25]Did Mr. Epstein ever discuss sexual acts
[58:27]of any kind with you?
[58:29]No.
[58:30]Did he ever discuss receiving massages?
[58:33]Yes.
[58:36]What were the nature of those conversations?
[58:39]He told me massage therapy was great
[58:42]and I should get massages.
[58:44]Did he ever discuss who he was receiving massages from?
[58:48]No.
[58:48]So it is your testimony today that you don't recall him ever
[58:51]saying anything about receiving massages
[58:54]from young women or girls?
[58:56]Absolutely not.
[58:58]Perhaps I'm agreeing with you.
[58:59]Didn't do that.
[59:02]Was it common for Epstein to bring young women or girls
[59:04]to any other place where the two of you would meet?
[59:08]Never.
[59:13]Did Mr. Epstein ever request that you
[59:15]bring Victoria's secret models to events at your home?
[59:20]No.
[59:21]And no Victoria's secret models ever came to my home,
[59:25]even for business purpose.
[59:27]Did he talk about one exception?
[59:32]Oh yeah, I forgot about that.
[59:35]There's one exception.
[59:36]My wife had, for about 20 years,
[59:40]a horse show here for charity.
[59:43]And one of the models' husband was a polo player.
[59:50]And I don't know how they showed up as a couple
[59:53]and he gave either me or my wife a polo horse, which was,
[1:00:00]I don't ride and Abigail wasn't
[1:00:02]interested in a polo horse.
[1:00:03]So that would have been the only exception.
[1:00:09]Did Mr. Epstein ever request that you introduce him
[1:00:12]to Victoria's secret models?
[1:00:15]Never.
[1:00:21]And I just want to clarify your testimony earlier,
[1:00:26]but did you ever receive any massages
[1:00:28]from any young woman or girl brought to you
[1:00:31]or by or introduced to you by Mr. Epstein?
[1:00:34]Never.
[1:00:48]We discussed Mr. Epstein's arrest previously,
[1:00:52]but I would like to return to it just
[1:00:54]to make sure the record is clear.
[1:00:57]In 2005, police in Palm Beach, Florida
[1:00:59]began investigating Epstein.
[1:01:01]In July 2006, Epstein was arrested for the first time
[1:01:04]for soliciting prostitution for minors.
[1:01:08]Prior to Mr. Epstein's arrest,
[1:01:10]were you aware of any investigation into Mr. Epstein?
[1:01:15]Not that I recall.
[1:01:20]When did you become aware of an investigation
[1:01:23]into Mr. Epstein?
[1:01:27]Probably whenever it was in the press.
[1:01:29]I don't know when that was.
[1:01:33]And you mentioned the press.
[1:01:35]Was there anyone that was a part of your business
[1:01:40]that may have alerted you to his arrest?
[1:01:43]Could have been.
[1:01:46]For the record, did you have any knowledge
[1:01:48]of illegal activity by Mr. Epstein
[1:01:51]prior to his arrest in 2006?
[1:02:01]The only thing I recall is my chief of staff told me,
[1:02:06]and I don't know how he knew the press,
[1:02:08]whether it was the newspapers or radio
[1:02:12]or TV, that Jeffrey had been accused,
[1:02:21]or a woman was suing him, for being aggressive.
[1:02:27]And I remember calling him and saying,
[1:02:31]what the hell is this?
[1:02:33]And he said, I was being shaken down by a hooker.
[1:02:38]And I believed him.
[1:02:42]I think the follow-up to that conversation was, I hope,
[1:02:46]you're not bullshitting me.
[1:02:48]Because if it is, the party's over.
[1:02:51]He said, absolutely not.
[1:02:52]Do you think I'm stupid?
[1:02:55]Which is probably what I would say to an attorney
[1:02:58]or say to you or anybody that I worked with.
[1:03:02]If you do something off, you're out.
[1:03:06]So after you had that initial conversation with him,
[1:03:08]did you discuss the allegations as they
[1:03:13]were being investigated with Mr. Epstein?
[1:03:16]Excuse me.
[1:03:19]No, I don't think I discussed it.
[1:03:21]It was done.
[1:03:24]I believed that he wasn't stupid.
[1:03:27]And you mentioned your chief of staff.
[1:03:30]For the record, who is that?
[1:03:32]His name is Bruce Saul.
[1:03:34]And I met him through an acquaintance.
[1:03:42]That's the question.
[1:03:44]It's going to help if you answer the question that he asks.
[1:03:47]OK, thank you.
[1:03:49]Thank you.
[1:03:49]We'll all get out of here a lot faster.
[1:03:51]Did your chief of staff have any relationship
[1:03:53]with Mr. Epstein?
[1:03:56]Other than how do I answer it?
[1:04:01]None, except if he would call him.
[1:04:03]I wouldn't know it.
[1:04:06]Everybody knew where I was all the time.
[1:04:08]So if somebody wanted to find me,
[1:04:09]would he call Bruce or call my admin?
[1:04:12]Where's Les?
[1:04:13]Because I try to be available to people,
[1:04:18]but I don't tell everybody where I am and where I'm going
[1:04:20]because it's traveling so much.
[1:04:23]So I would guess conversations.
[1:04:25]I'm speculating that those conversations might
[1:04:27]have happened.
[1:04:29]For the record, you were surprised
[1:04:30]by Mr. Epstein's arrest?
[1:04:32]Yes.
[1:04:33]Do you recall people around you
[1:04:35]being surprised by his arrest?
[1:04:40]Don't specifically recall.
[1:04:42]Probably at the time they were, but I don't remember it.
[1:04:45]Do you recall whether anyone around you
[1:04:47]advised you that you should cut ties with Epstein
[1:04:50]after his arrest?
[1:04:58]I'm going to instruct you not to disclose
[1:05:00]any communications you had with your wife or your lawyers
[1:05:03]in answering that question.
[1:05:04]So are you asserting, for the record,
[1:05:07]attorney-client privilege and spousal privilege?
[1:05:09]Correct.
[1:05:09]To be clear, the House does not
[1:05:11]recognize common law privileges.
[1:05:13]And so if you are asserting that in order
[1:05:16]for him to not testify to those,
[1:05:19]in order to preserve that, we may discuss and may take that
[1:05:23]to the chairman for a ruling, and potentially may direct
[1:05:26]your client to answer those questions.
[1:05:28]That's fine.
[1:05:29]The Supreme Court has also made clear
[1:05:30]that those privilege do exist in the congressional context.
[1:05:34]And I doubt very much that whatever
[1:05:36]his answer would be to this is that important.
[1:05:38]But I'm directing him to preserve those two privileges,
[1:05:41]those two well-recognized common law privileges.
[1:05:44]I forgot the question.
[1:05:45]Go ahead, Master K.
[1:05:53]Did, after Mr. Epstein's arrest,
[1:05:56]did anyone around you advise you
[1:05:59]to cut ties with Mr. Epstein?
[1:06:03]And I'm going to, again, arrange
[1:06:04]you to answer without discussing any communications you
[1:06:07]had with your wife or your lawyers
[1:06:10]in answering that question.
[1:06:11]So you can go ahead and answer.
[1:06:13]I'm confused again.
[1:06:14]Did anybody in the answer be nobody?
[1:06:17]I can't remember anybody.
[1:06:21]Did you instruct your companies
[1:06:22]to do an internal review of your company's relationship
[1:06:26]with Mr. Epstein at this time?
[1:06:31]I probably would have, but I don't recall.
[1:06:36]That would have been anything that
[1:06:40]was untoward that happened in the business,
[1:06:42]around the business.
[1:06:44]I would always say, this has to be investigated.
[1:06:48]And I would always, in community and business,
[1:06:56]have the same attitude, but I don't specifically remember.
[1:07:04]Were you suspicious of any others around Mr. Epstein
[1:07:08]that they may have aided in the solicitation of minors
[1:07:11]for prostitution when you learned of his arrest?
[1:07:16]Can you repeat the question?
[1:07:18]Let me clarify.
[1:07:19]Mr. Epstein had individuals such as Maxwell, Sarah Kellan,
[1:07:25]among others who have been identified
[1:07:28]as potential co-conspirators.
[1:07:30]Were there any individuals that you understood
[1:07:34]to be affiliated with Mr. Epstein
[1:07:37]that you may have suspected to have aided in his crimes?
[1:07:44]No, because I don't recall any people
[1:07:47]around him and his business.
[1:07:51]My business is with him.
[1:07:53]I don't know my attorney's admin
[1:07:56]or who his associates are.
[1:08:01]Mr. Wexner, we're approaching the end of our hour,
[1:08:04]so I will just ask you one final question
[1:08:07]before we take a break.
[1:08:08]With the benefit of hindsight,
[1:08:11]were there any things you witnessed or observed
[1:08:13]about Mr. Epstein that could have suggested
[1:08:16]he was trafficking and sexually abusing women?
[1:08:20]Absolutely not.
[1:08:21]I've asked myself that question over and over,
[1:08:25]why I didn't see there should have been a clue
[1:08:28]or something that I should have picked up on.
[1:08:31]There's nothing I can recall,
[1:08:33]nothing, not even a clue of a clue.
[1:08:38]And I think the reason, in hindsight,
[1:08:42]and I think for the understanding
[1:08:44]to get to the bottom of what Jeffrey did
[1:08:48]is to understand how great a con he was,
[1:08:52]because that's the explanation I have to myself.
[1:08:55]How could I have never thought he was a thief?
[1:08:58]How could I never thought he was a pervert?
[1:09:01]All the terrible things, never clue.
[1:09:06]We will go off the record.
[1:09:09]We can go on the record.
[1:09:11]Good morning, Mr. Wexner.
[1:09:14]My name is, I will be doing most of the questioning
[1:09:20]for the minority today.
[1:09:22]We appreciate your time.
[1:09:24]As you know, our conversation today will focus
[1:09:26]on your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.
[1:09:29]We'll touch on probably your financial
[1:09:31]and business relationship with him.
[1:09:33]We'll also discuss your personal relationship with him.
[1:09:37]You already discussed with our colleagues
[1:09:39]the way that you originally met Jeffrey Epstein.
[1:09:42]I would just like to ask a couple of questions
[1:09:45]on that topic.
[1:09:47]When you first met Epstein,
[1:09:48]how did he originally present himself to you?
[1:09:52]What services did he say he was offering?
[1:09:56]Well, when I first met him, it was just hello
[1:10:00]and he didn't represent anything
[1:10:02]and I didn't ask anything.
[1:10:03]I was just meeting a friend's acquaintance.
[1:10:07]As that business relationship became closer
[1:10:11]and you eventually hired him,
[1:10:12]I assume he pitched his services in some way.
[1:10:16]What was his way of framing what he was offering to you?
[1:10:26]I think it was his experience
[1:10:30]at an industrial level,
[1:10:31]like looking for a big company like Bear Stearns
[1:10:35]and then he had done personal work
[1:10:38]for the Rothschild family in France.
[1:10:41]Personal wealth management, essentially?
[1:10:46]I don't know.
[1:10:48]We've seen some reports that he would present himself
[1:10:51]as a bounty hunter,
[1:10:53]that he would find people's missing money.
[1:10:56]Do you recall him saying anything like that?
[1:10:58]No.
[1:11:02]One of the articles that my colleagues
[1:11:05]already introduced,
[1:11:06]I won't make you look back through it,
[1:11:08]but it was the Vanity Fair article.
[1:11:10]I will just read you a paragraph out loud.
[1:11:12]It's the only paragraph I have a question about.
[1:11:15]But that article reported that during a conversation,
[1:11:18]Jeffrey Epstein asked Mr. Meister
[1:11:22]to introduce Epstein to you, Mr. Wexner.
[1:11:26]And Epstein told Meister that Epstein had learned
[1:11:29]that Wexner's current money manager was stealing from him.
[1:11:34]And the article identifies Harold Levin,
[1:11:36]I think, as your previous financial advisor.
[1:11:40]Do you have any recollection of whether Mr. Epstein
[1:11:42]ever claimed that Mr. Levin was stealing from you?
[1:11:46]Objection to the article on hearsay grounds.
[1:11:48]You can answer.
[1:11:56]As I recall, Jeffrey never thought Harold was stealing
[1:12:00]and I didn't think Harold was stealing.
[1:12:03]Did anybody ever say that Harold was stealing?
[1:12:06]No.
[1:12:07]Okay, no recollection of that.
[1:12:09]No recollection of that.
[1:12:11]That article also describes a story
[1:12:13]where you sent Mr. Levin to meet with Mr. Epstein
[1:12:16]and just discuss an investment opportunity,
[1:12:18]but Mr. Levin came back to you
[1:12:20]and told you to stay away from Mr. Epstein.
[1:12:23]Do you have any recollection of that type of a warning
[1:12:26]from Mr. Levin?
[1:12:27]No.
[1:12:28]Objection.
[1:12:29]No.
[1:12:33]When you initially hired Mr. Epstein,
[1:12:37]do you recall, and some of this may be repetitive,
[1:12:39]so you have my apologies,
[1:12:41]do you recall what year you initially hired Mr. Epstein?
[1:12:44]No.
[1:12:47]Would it be right to say
[1:12:48]that it may have been either 1989 or 1990?
[1:12:58]Yeah, back then.
[1:12:59]Okay.
[1:13:01]Do you recall anybody warning you
[1:13:05]not to get involved with Jeffrey Epstein
[1:13:07]when you first hired him?
[1:13:10]No.
[1:13:15]I'd like to talk about Epstein's roles
[1:13:18]and responsibilities while he worked for you.
[1:13:22]You touched on this in the last hour.
[1:13:24]The total amount of time that he worked for you,
[1:13:27]how long was that approximately?
[1:13:29]It started maybe in 1989 or 1990,
[1:13:34]and I think you testified it ended in 2000,
[1:13:37]and what year did you say?
[1:13:39]They didn't.
[1:13:40]Okay.
[1:13:41]Well, what year do you recall the relationship ending?
[1:13:43]Did your statement help with fresher recollection?
[1:13:46]Yeah.
[1:13:47]But where I said in the statement
[1:13:49]would be the correct date,
[1:13:50]and so whatever period,
[1:13:53]that 89 or 90 it had been about then,
[1:13:58]and it ended when it ended.
[1:13:59]Was that upon his final plea in 2008?
[1:14:06]Whatever I said in the statement is accurate.
[1:14:09]I remember this being concomitant,
[1:14:11]with finding out he was stealing from us.
[1:14:14]In terms of the different things or roles
[1:14:16]that he would play for you,
[1:14:19]is it right to say that he acted
[1:14:21]as an investment advisor or a money manager?
[1:14:24]What would be the right term for that role?
[1:14:34]The term wasn't part of my vocabulary,
[1:14:38]but he was kind of like the family office manager,
[1:14:42]and so where they oversaw investment,
[1:14:45]oversaw people getting paid,
[1:14:49]made sure taxes were done,
[1:14:51]and talked to accountants,
[1:14:53]just I had in hindsight a very,
[1:14:59]because I had done so well,
[1:15:01]and I was dating Abigail,
[1:15:02]and we were engaged,
[1:15:03]and I was married and running 20 businesses.
[1:15:06]I was very busy,
[1:15:08]and all that just stuff
[1:15:13]that was in my personal life
[1:15:15]was either managed,
[1:15:17]wasn't managed by me,
[1:15:18]it was like my admin was like the,
[1:15:21]which sounds kind of crazy,
[1:15:22]was the closest thing I had to any kind of supervision.
[1:15:26]Would he be making investments on your behalf
[1:15:28]the way a traditional investment advisor would?
[1:15:34]I must have known at the time,
[1:15:36]I don't recall specifically asking him about investment.
[1:15:42]I would like to introduce a minority exhibit
[1:15:47]A, and this is an article from the Wall Street Journal
[1:15:58]titled Epstein Flourished as He Forged Bond
[1:16:02]with Retail Billionaire,
[1:16:19]and you don't have to read through this whole article,
[1:16:21]it's just helpful to have it in front of us,
[1:16:23]but on the bottom of page three,
[1:16:25]I will read just a single sentence to you,
[1:16:30]and it, the article,
[1:16:31]Sure, it starts with the word soon,
[1:16:33]it's the very last sentence
[1:16:35]on the bottom of page three,
[1:16:45]and that sentence,
[1:16:46]I'll read it out loud as well,
[1:16:47]says that soon Mr. Epstein was presenting Mr. Wexner
[1:16:52]with a variety of investments,
[1:16:54]including apartment buildings
[1:16:57]and a development involving a former post office building,
[1:17:00]says Mr. Morowski,
[1:17:02]and we understand that to be Robert Morowski,
[1:17:05]a former vice chairman of your company.
[1:17:08]Is that consistent with what you remember
[1:17:11]Epstein doing for you?
[1:17:13]Objection here so you can answer.
[1:17:15]No.
[1:17:16]No, okay.
[1:17:17]Do you have any recollection of Epstein
[1:17:19]presenting you with investment opportunities
[1:17:21]such as these?
[1:17:23]I'm sure he did,
[1:17:24]but they weren't apartment buildings or post office,
[1:17:29]but it didn't, you know.
[1:17:34]Do you remember?
[1:17:35]No, I don't remember.
[1:17:37]Is it that you don't recall at all,
[1:17:40]or that as far as you recall,
[1:17:42]that statement is just not accurate?
[1:17:45]Well, there's two parts of it.
[1:17:46]In reading this, one, not accurate,
[1:17:50]and I fired Bob Morowski for bad behavior.
[1:17:54]But as to the substantive part,
[1:17:56]is it that you don't recall whether or not
[1:17:58]Epstein would present you
[1:17:59]with these types of investments?
[1:18:00]I don't, no, I do not recall.
[1:18:02]Okay.
[1:18:03]And the quote is from somebody that I fired.
[1:18:06]Okay.
[1:18:08]In addition to the, I guess, family office role
[1:18:12]that you described,
[1:18:13]I'd like to ask about whether Epstein provided
[1:18:16]other services to you.
[1:18:18]We know that he provided some later clients
[1:18:20]with tax planning services.
[1:18:22]Did he ever do anything like that for you?
[1:18:26]Must have, but I have no specific recollection.
[1:18:29]I mean, somebody, my attorney, tax attorneys,
[1:18:33]have kind of a model about who did what.
[1:18:36]And so is it fair to say again
[1:18:38]that that is, that you just don't recall either way?
[1:18:41]Yeah, I don't recall at all.
[1:18:43]Okay.
[1:18:44]Separately from that, Mr. Epstein was a trustee
[1:18:49]for various trusts and charities of yours.
[1:18:53]I'd like to touch on both of those roles,
[1:18:56]starting with trusts.
[1:18:58]And so I will introduce Minority Exhibit B.
[1:19:18]And that article is from ABC News,
[1:19:22]and it's titled Billionaire Businessman Leslie Wexner
[1:19:25]Refuses to Reveal Full Scope
[1:19:28]of Jeffrey Epstein's Alleged Multi-Million Dollar Theft
[1:19:31]Dated January 23rd, 2020.
[1:19:35]And-
[1:19:36]It's January 25th.
[1:19:37]Ah, great.
[1:19:38]Thank you.
[1:19:39]Well, I have January 23rd.
[1:19:42]Oh, I'm looking at the date in the upper right.
[1:19:44]You're right.
[1:19:45]Under the byline is January 23rd.
[1:19:47]There you go.
[1:19:48]It's got two dates, I don't know which is correct.
[1:19:49]All right.
[1:19:51]On page three of this article,
[1:19:55]and I'll let you take a moment,
[1:19:57]in the middle of that page,
[1:19:59]the article says that they identified
[1:20:02]nearly a dozen trusts connected to you.
[1:20:05]I don't think-
[1:20:06]Where is it?
[1:20:07]Sure, it starts in the paragraph,
[1:20:08]Vulture and Boyd, in the middle of the page.
[1:20:11]Okay.
[1:20:13]Who are those?
[1:20:14]I think they're associated with ABC's
[1:20:16]investigative reporting team.
[1:20:18]Thank you.
[1:20:18]It tells us that they found nearly a dozen trusts
[1:20:22]with names like health and science interests,
[1:20:25]arts interests, and community interests
[1:20:28]connected to Wexner that listed Epstein as trustee
[1:20:32]and received large gifts of stock in Wexner's company.
[1:20:35]So I'll stop there.
[1:20:38]Do you have a recollection of the trusts
[1:20:40]that are described here?
[1:20:42]None.
[1:20:43]None.
[1:20:44]And so, do you have any recollection
[1:20:46]of Mr. Epstein's role with those trusts?
[1:20:50]None.
[1:20:50]Okay.
[1:20:53]We will come back to that,
[1:20:55]but I'd like to touch for a moment
[1:20:57]on Epstein's role with the Wexner Foundation.
[1:21:03]And I, for that, will introduce
[1:21:06]Minority Exhibit C.
[1:21:26]And this document is titled
[1:21:29]Independent Review of Jeffrey Epstein's Involvement
[1:21:34]and Interactions with the Wexner Foundation.
[1:21:37]And the document is dated February 24th, 2020.
[1:21:40]I'm not going to ask you to read through this.
[1:21:42]It's a long document.
[1:21:43]I will point you to a specific part of it.
[1:21:45]But first, we understand this to be
[1:21:48]an independent review that was undertaken
[1:21:51]by a law firm at the request of the Wexner Foundation
[1:21:54]in the wake of Mr. Epstein's arrest in 2019.
[1:21:57]Is that also your understanding?
[1:22:00]I never knew of it.
[1:22:02]And I'm looking at this, I'm laughing,
[1:22:05]because the address is 65 East State Street,
[1:22:07]and that was the address of my dad's first store
[1:22:09]when I was 13.
[1:22:12]Okay, well, so is the report unfamiliar to you?
[1:22:16]Yes, completely.
[1:22:18]And I think page four of the report says
[1:22:20]that you were interviewed by the law firm
[1:22:23]for this report.
[1:22:24]Do you have any recollection of that?
[1:22:28]Nope, none.
[1:22:30]Do you have any reason to doubt the report
[1:22:33]that you were in fact interviewed for the report?
[1:22:37]No.
[1:22:38]Okay.
[1:22:39]I don't remember it, so I can't doubt it.
[1:22:44]Page nine of the report simply tells us
[1:22:47]that Epstein, and I'll let you term to it
[1:22:50]if you'd like, but it just tells us
[1:22:51]that Epstein was elected as a trustee
[1:22:54]of the Wexner Foundation in 1992,
[1:22:58]and that he remained a trustee until September 2007.
[1:23:05]Epstein would not have been the only trustee
[1:23:08]of the Wexner Foundation, correct?
[1:23:10]Objection to hearsay as to the document,
[1:23:13]the question is fine.
[1:23:14]Can you repeat it?
[1:23:15]Sure.
[1:23:16]Would Epstein, did the Wexner Foundation
[1:23:18]have more than one trustee?
[1:23:24]I'm sure it did, and I think there was
[1:23:26]a legal requirement to have three.
[1:23:28]And I don't know that, I just think that.
[1:23:34]Okay.
[1:23:35]On the next page, page 10, under the header number two,
[1:23:42]there's a header that reads,
[1:23:44]Epstein played no role in the operation
[1:23:47]of the Foundation's fellowships or other programs.
[1:23:50]And the first sentence afterwards says,
[1:23:53]based upon our review of Foundation records
[1:23:56]and interviews with Foundation leaders,
[1:23:58]we concluded that although a trustee,
[1:24:01]Epstein played no role in the management
[1:24:04]or administration of the Foundation's operations
[1:24:07]or programs.
[1:24:09]Now, on that topic, I'd like to introduce
[1:24:12]one more single page exhibit for you.
[1:24:16]So I'm just gonna object to this statement
[1:24:19]as both a statement and hearsay, but go ahead.
[1:24:21]I think as the majority general counsel noted,
[1:24:24]the objections have no legal grounding in this forum.
[1:24:28]I'm making it for the record.
[1:24:30]It is a deposition, so I'm making the objection,
[1:24:32]that's all.
[1:24:45]So this is a single page.
[1:24:47]Single page.
[1:24:48]And I'll give you a moment to look it over.
[1:24:51]This is D?
[1:24:52]That's D.
[1:25:01]I'll describe it briefly.
[1:25:03]This is.
[1:25:04]Can you give me a chance to read it?
[1:25:05]Sure, of course.
[1:25:06]Thank you.
[1:25:24]I think I read it.
[1:25:26]I'd never seen this before, but go ahead.
[1:25:29]Great.
[1:25:30]It's an email chain from 2006
[1:25:32]between starting with Peg Ugglund,
[1:25:35]who we understand was the financial controller
[1:25:37]for your family office,
[1:25:39]a person named Darren,
[1:25:40]who we understand to be Mr. Epstein's lawyer,
[1:25:43]Darren Indyke, and Jeffrey Epstein.
[1:25:45]And the chain appears to relate to a foundation grant,
[1:25:49]and the question is whether the funds
[1:25:50]should come from the Wexner Foundation
[1:25:53]or some other related entity.
[1:25:56]Epstein appears to make the decision
[1:25:58]that if the recipient is a U.S. charity,
[1:26:01]then the funds should come from the Wexner Foundation.
[1:26:05]There are, I'll just represent to you,
[1:26:06]there are other emails with similar themes.
[1:26:09]This email chain seems to clearly show Mr. Epstein
[1:26:12]acting as a final decision maker
[1:26:14]with respect to the disbursement
[1:26:17]of Wexner Foundation funds.
[1:26:19]And that obviously does not square
[1:26:21]with findings in the independent report.
[1:26:23]So having been interviewed for the report,
[1:26:26]my question is whether you had any understanding
[1:26:29]of Mr. Epstein playing this kind of role
[1:26:31]for the foundation.
[1:26:37]I'm not sure I understand the question.
[1:26:38]No problem.
[1:26:41]Are you asking me, did Jeffrey decide
[1:26:43]that money should be given to Abeben?
[1:26:45]Or do I write a personal check
[1:26:49]or is it a foundation check?
[1:26:51]It seems in this example,
[1:26:52]Mr. Epstein was deciding whether or not
[1:26:55]the funds for this entity should or should not come
[1:26:58]from the Wexner Foundation.
[1:27:01]Or from someplace else,
[1:27:02]not whether the donation should be made itself.
[1:27:05]I think that's the distinction he's trying to draw.
[1:27:09]I have no recollection of where it came from.
[1:27:19]I regularly helped Abeben
[1:27:23]after he retired from government.
[1:27:26]And I probably would have started
[1:27:28]with writing a personal check
[1:27:29]and then I would speculate how it was paid.
[1:27:33]I don't remember writing the check.
[1:27:35]But Abeben was a very good friend
[1:27:38]and he had no money.
[1:27:39]He worked for the government of Israel
[1:27:41]and social security was,
[1:27:44]his income was nothing.
[1:27:46]He was living in public housing.
[1:27:48]And my sense was that it wasn't fair.
[1:27:51]So I took care of him privately
[1:27:54]and his wife Susie until they both died.
[1:27:58]Did you have any knowledge that Mr. Epstein
[1:28:00]was acting as a final decision maker
[1:28:03]for whether or not to spend foundation funds?
[1:28:07]Not at all.
[1:28:08]He would never have done that.
[1:28:09]He does appear to have done it here.
[1:28:11]As a decision maker, no, absolutely not.
[1:28:17]I wouldn't have thought it.
[1:28:19]So this role would have,
[1:28:21]him playing this role would have occurred
[1:28:23]without your knowledge.
[1:28:25]Objection seems in fact not in evidence.
[1:28:31]It happened without my knowledge.
[1:28:34]But I did give money to my friend Abeben
[1:28:38]and his wife Susie.
[1:28:39]Okay.
[1:28:40]Thank you.
[1:28:46]I think we've had an additional member of Congress
[1:28:49]join us if that individual could identify themselves,
[1:28:52]please.
[1:28:53]Congressman Steve Lynch of the Eighth Congressional
[1:28:56]District of Massachusetts.
[1:29:01]Hello, I'm Les.
[1:29:06]I'd like to spend a little bit of time
[1:29:08]on the development of New Albany,
[1:29:10]and I know my colleagues also touched on that topic.
[1:29:14]Could you just briefly describe for us
[1:29:16]your role in the development of New Albany?
[1:29:21]I know it was substantial, so a brief overview.
[1:29:26]It started out with me thinking
[1:29:28]I wanted to have a house in the country.
[1:29:31]And it began with thinking I would buy an old barn
[1:29:33]and restore it, and that'd be kind of a cool thing.
[1:29:37]And as I worked through the project,
[1:29:40]my personal project, I asked my friend Jack Kessler,
[1:29:44]who was a professional in the real estate business
[1:29:48]and a developer, what land cost
[1:29:51]and what he thought of the idea.
[1:29:54]And then I got to thinking,
[1:30:00]do I really want to build a barn?
[1:30:01]And then I thought I'd want to build a house.
[1:30:03]And I kept telling Jack about what I was thinking
[1:30:05]I was going to do, having not done anything.
[1:30:08]And it started out pretty modestly.
[1:30:10]I think I bought like a 30-acre farm,
[1:30:13]which is about a mile from here,
[1:30:16]and then, which I thought was a good location.
[1:30:18]And over time, I kept thinking about it,
[1:30:21]decided that wasn't a good location.
[1:30:23]This was a good location.
[1:30:26]And in the conversations with Jack,
[1:30:27]he kept saying that these are good ideas.
[1:30:29]You're not overpaying for land,
[1:30:30]because it was something entirely new to me.
[1:30:34]And one day I said, Jack, if it's such a good idea,
[1:30:37]why don't you live here?
[1:30:39]And he said, I would, but my wife wouldn't move.
[1:30:42]And then one day he called up.
[1:30:42]He said, she thinks it's a good idea,
[1:30:45]and we're going to sell our house
[1:30:46]and we'll build one near yours,
[1:30:47]which is the house that's half a mile away.
[1:30:50]And I said, if we're going to live here,
[1:30:52]do you think any of our friends
[1:30:53]would want to live out near us,
[1:30:55]or acquaintances of his?
[1:30:57]And he said, yeah, I think a lot of people
[1:30:59]would like that, the idea of having more land around
[1:31:02]and it's not that far from the airport,
[1:31:04]stuff like that.
[1:31:05]And that's how the idea began.
[1:31:11]And then the next idea was, how do you do it?
[1:31:13]And Jack is a professional,
[1:31:17]the only professional I know in the real estate business
[1:31:19]other than shopping center developers
[1:31:21]relied on his judgment
[1:31:23]about prices we were paying and acquisitions,
[1:31:26]because I had a full-time job
[1:31:28]and I didn't know anything about this.
[1:31:31]And then I got to thinking one day, how do you do it?
[1:31:35]I mean, acquire the land, how do you plan it?
[1:31:38]And I thought there's a lot of smart people at Harvard.
[1:31:41]So I made a cold call to the School of Architecture,
[1:31:45]talked to the dean, I said, I have this idea,
[1:31:47]you don't know me, could you recommend some architects?
[1:31:52]And he said, I don't recommend architects
[1:31:54]to strangers and projects I don't know about.
[1:31:58]And we talked a while more and he said,
[1:32:00]if you'll buy a day of my time,
[1:32:01]if you're really serious, I'll come out and look at it
[1:32:03]because I don't know whether you're really
[1:32:05]really serious about doing this.
[1:32:07]And then he gave me a list of architects
[1:32:10]and I didn't know any of them.
[1:32:12]Want me to keep going?
[1:32:13]No, I think I've got the sense of it, yes.
[1:32:18]It kind of just grew by topsy.
[1:32:20]I appreciate it.
[1:32:21]You also touched on this earlier,
[1:32:23]but what was the role of the New Albany Company
[1:32:27]in the development of the town of New Albany?
[1:32:32]Well, it was just the name of the community,
[1:32:35]so we called it the company
[1:32:36]because we were developing New Albany.
[1:32:39]If we'd developed it in Poughkeepsie,
[1:32:41]it'd be called the Poughkeepsie Company.
[1:32:44]Well, what was that, as far as you recall,
[1:32:47]Mr. Epstein's role in the development of New Albany?
[1:32:51]None.
[1:32:53]What was his role with the New Albany Company?
[1:33:01]As a fiduciary, being my financial advisor
[1:33:04]to understand what was going on financially,
[1:33:08]I thought I knew what was going on in our businesses,
[1:33:11]but we always had a CFO,
[1:33:13]so I'd rely on the CFO to do what the CFO did
[1:33:16]because I did the marketing and the planning.
[1:33:23]Every business had a CFO, every business had an overview,
[1:33:27]and I had a lot of complexity
[1:33:30]that I didn't realize at the time in my life,
[1:33:33]so it was either somebody had to do this.
[1:33:38]And there's paper, I don't want to throw paper at you
[1:33:41]if I don't have to, but I'll represent to you
[1:33:44]that yourself and Mr. Epstein were,
[1:33:46]at least at one point,
[1:33:47]co-presidents of the New Albany Company,
[1:33:50]and I'm happy to show that if that would be helpful.
[1:33:53]But I guess my question would be,
[1:33:54]what would his role have been
[1:33:56]as co-president of the New Albany Company?
[1:34:00]I think, I don't remember it,
[1:34:04]but if he did it, it was just, I don't know.
[1:34:09]I was the president chairman of the board
[1:34:11]and then the CEO of the company,
[1:34:13]but I really just thought my job was to be the president
[1:34:16]so that the titles wouldn't have meant anything to me.
[1:34:20]It is right, I think,
[1:34:21]you tell me that the purpose of the New Albany Company
[1:34:24]was to assist in the development of New Albany,
[1:34:27]is that right?
[1:34:29]It was more than that.
[1:34:30]New Albany was just a farm village,
[1:34:33]I bought land here and developed it,
[1:34:37]built the schools, built the fire station,
[1:34:39]built the police station,
[1:34:40]did all the community public facilities,
[1:34:47]planted streets, I can remember, did all the drawings.
[1:34:50]So I was the master developer
[1:34:55]of New Albany as a community.
[1:34:58]Did the New Albany Company have any purpose other than
[1:35:01]to assist in the development of New Albany?
[1:35:04]No.
[1:35:05]Okay, Mr. Epstein was at one point president
[1:35:08]of the New Albany Company.
[1:35:11]Objection, I think you said he was co-president?
[1:35:13]That's correct, co-president,
[1:35:16]but just so I understand it,
[1:35:17]your testimony is that Mr. Epstein played no role
[1:35:20]in the development of New Albany.
[1:35:22]Absolutely no role.
[1:35:23]Okay, I'd like to talk about the limited company.
[1:35:35]Was Mr. Epstein ever employed by the limited company
[1:35:38]or any of its affiliated entities?
[1:35:41]Ever.
[1:35:42]Did Mr. Epstein ever have an informal role
[1:35:45]with the limited company
[1:35:46]or any of its affiliated entities?
[1:35:49]Ever.
[1:35:50]Did he ever provide any services or advice to the company
[1:35:53]regardless of compensation?
[1:35:55]That I recall.
[1:35:58]The Vanity Fair article we looked at earlier,
[1:36:02]I'll just relay the anecdote,
[1:36:04]you're welcome to look at it if you want to,
[1:36:06]but it retells a story that in 1996,
[1:36:10]the limited was preparing to spin off Abercrombie and Fitch
[1:36:13]on the New York Stock Exchange.
[1:36:15]And Epstein reportedly flew to Columbus
[1:36:18]and told your executives
[1:36:19]that he would decide the share price.
[1:36:23]Do you have any recollection of that occurring?
[1:36:27]Nailed nothing, nothing.
[1:36:29]And the article says that Tom Hopkins,
[1:36:31]who I think was the vice chair
[1:36:33]of the limited at the time,
[1:36:35]told you at that point that Epstein was a con man.
[1:36:39]Do you have any recollection of that occurring?
[1:36:41]No.
[1:36:44]I'll note there's been a lot of reporting
[1:36:46]that Mr. Epstein held himself out
[1:36:48]as affiliated with Victoria's Secret.
[1:36:51]We will come back to that topic a little bit later.
[1:36:54]Were there any instances at all that you can recall
[1:36:57]in which Epstein got involved
[1:36:59]in the limited business affairs?
[1:37:03]No.
[1:37:08]In terms of Mr. Epstein's compensation,
[1:37:11]how was he compensated for his work for you?
[1:37:18]I don't specifically recall, but I would guess fairly.
[1:37:22]That should be more clear.
[1:37:24]Was he compensated with a salary
[1:37:26]or would it have been investment-based or securities
[1:37:30]or fee-based, do you recall?
[1:37:32]What was the way in which you would compensate him?
[1:37:34]I don't recall.
[1:37:40]We discussed earlier, I think,
[1:37:42]that the breadth of his theft from you,
[1:37:46]I think, has been estimated by your counsels
[1:37:48]to be the hundreds of millions.
[1:37:50]Do you recall approximately
[1:37:52]what Mr. Epstein's total compensation
[1:37:55]would have been in his time with you?
[1:37:59]I'm sure I would have known them, but I don't recall.
[1:38:11]I'd like to talk about Mr. Epstein's misappropriation
[1:38:15]or theft of your assets.
[1:38:17]And so I will introduce as exhibit E.
[1:38:42]So this is an excerpt from a memo
[1:38:45]that the Department of Justice wrote in December of 2019.
[1:38:49]And DOJ was assessing the extent to which
[1:38:54]people around Epstein might have been liable
[1:38:56]for their conduct.
[1:38:58]The memo is long.
[1:39:00]I will represent, I have given you only the excerpt
[1:39:02]that relates to you.
[1:39:03]There's nothing else in this document
[1:39:05]that relates to you directly.
[1:39:08]The section that I've given you on pages,
[1:39:11]on the second and third pages of the document,
[1:39:14]that's 65 and 66 at the bottom.
[1:39:20]This is a summary of a proper
[1:39:22]that your lawyer or lawyers gave to DOJ in July of 2019.
[1:39:31]With respect to Epstein's theft from you,
[1:39:35]in the second half of the second paragraph,
[1:39:39]I'll read it out loud.
[1:39:40]Your attorneys, quote,
[1:39:42]explained that over his years handling Wexner's finances,
[1:39:46]Epstein stole or otherwise misappropriated
[1:39:49]several hundred million dollars from Wexner.
[1:39:52]That misconduct, together with the fees
[1:39:55]that Epstein paid himself for his services to Wexner,
[1:39:59]appears to account for virtually all of Epstein's wealth.
[1:40:04]So several hundred million dollars
[1:40:06]is a large but not precise figure.
[1:40:10]To the best of your knowledge,
[1:40:11]how much exactly did Epstein steal?
[1:40:15]I don't know.
[1:40:16]I don't think I'll ever know.
[1:40:21]I'd like to try to understand a little bit better
[1:40:23]how Epstein was able to steal
[1:40:26]or misappropriate that many funds.
[1:40:30]One way, reportedly, is that the trusts
[1:40:34]that we described earlier,
[1:40:36]which I know you said you have no recollection of,
[1:40:38]I just want to be thorough,
[1:40:40]the trusts that he was trustee of
[1:40:42]would receive gifts of limited stock,
[1:40:45]and he would then sell that stock
[1:40:47]on the New York Stock Exchange
[1:40:49]and then use a portion of those proceeds
[1:40:52]for his own personal purposes.
[1:40:54]Do you have any knowledge or recollection
[1:40:56]of what I just described?
[1:40:58]I'm effing surprised.
[1:41:01]I'm shocked.
[1:41:04]I didn't know this.
[1:41:04]Is it that you have not previously
[1:41:06]heard what I just described?
[1:41:09]I never heard of it, never saw this document.
[1:41:11]And it was publicly reported, I think,
[1:41:14]by ABC several years ago,
[1:41:15]but not ever on your radar.
[1:41:18]Never.
[1:41:20]The report indicates that it was more than
[1:41:24]or around $1.3 billion of stock
[1:41:28]that Epstein moved around that way,
[1:41:30]not that he kept all of that money for himself,
[1:41:32]but the total amount of stock sales
[1:41:34]was over a billion dollars.
[1:41:35]You have no knowledge or awareness of that.
[1:41:41]I don't know the amounts.
[1:41:42]The only trust that I'm aware of
[1:41:44]is my wife set up trusts for our kids.
[1:41:49]So wherever she set them up in the amounts,
[1:41:52]I have no idea what's in them then or now.
[1:41:56]And then separately, it's been reported
[1:41:57]that around $20 million of stock and cash
[1:42:01]were contributed by two of your charitable foundations
[1:42:05]to one of Epstein's charities.
[1:42:07]Do you have any knowledge or awareness of that?
[1:42:09]Effing shocked.
[1:42:12]I'm appalled.
[1:42:14]I never heard that.
[1:42:15]Do you know that?
[1:42:22]No.
[1:42:27]Thank you, Mr. Director.
[1:42:28]We have some additional questions
[1:42:29]and questions from some of the members here.
[1:42:31]I'll start.
[1:42:33]I wanna just go back to something.
[1:42:36]Earlier in the deposition, Mr. Director,
[1:42:37]you said that you were never aware
[1:42:40]of Jeffery Epstein or Elaine Maxwell
[1:42:43]sexually abusing minors or adult women.
[1:42:46]Is that correct?
[1:42:49]I know Jeffery was accused by an adult woman
[1:42:54]of abusing her.
[1:42:56]And that's the only thing that I knew
[1:43:00]until the shit hit the fan.
[1:43:02]So prior to becoming public knowledge,
[1:43:05]you were never aware of Jeffery Epstein or Elaine Maxwell?
[1:43:07]No, absolutely not.
[1:43:10]Were you ever aware?
[1:43:10]We have to wait until he finishes
[1:43:11]asking the question.
[1:43:12]Sorry.
[1:43:13]The court reporters will get mad at you if you don't.
[1:43:15]So I think you said that you think you said being or not.
[1:43:18]Were you ever aware of Jeffery Epstein or Elaine Maxwell
[1:43:22]sexually abusing men or boys?
[1:43:25]No.
[1:43:29]How about trafficking men or boys?
[1:43:31]No.
[1:43:33]Prior to it becoming public knowledge,
[1:43:35]were you ever aware of Jeffery Epstein
[1:43:37]or Elaine Maxwell arranging for a prominent person
[1:43:41]to have sex with another person?
[1:43:42]Never.
[1:43:45]Can I ask you, Mr. Wexler,
[1:43:46]were you ever with Jeffery Epstein
[1:43:50]in the presence of women or men
[1:43:53]in bathing suits or underwear?
[1:44:00]No.
[1:44:01]Never in the presence of women or men
[1:44:04]in bathing suits or underwear with Mr. Epstein?
[1:44:08]No.
[1:44:12]I mean, if he was at the fashion show that,
[1:44:15]if he was at the fashion show,
[1:44:15]he would have seen women in underwear.
[1:44:17]But, you know, I don't understand.
[1:44:19]So you're saying that if he was at a fashion show
[1:44:23]with you through the fashion business,
[1:44:24]it may have been the case, but maybe,
[1:44:26]but could it have been the case
[1:44:27]that you were with Mr. Epstein maybe
[1:44:30]prior to the fashion show or in another space?
[1:44:33]No, absolutely not.
[1:44:35]So did any women or men ever model clothes for you
[1:44:40]in the presence of Mr. Epstein?
[1:44:43]No.
[1:44:44]So not at a fashion show
[1:44:46]and not in a private home or residence?
[1:44:49]As a, you know, being in the audience
[1:44:51]at a fashion show would have been the only possible time.
[1:44:58]Are you aware of any individual
[1:45:00]that has given either a public statement
[1:45:05]or any information of anyone that has actually said
[1:45:08]that they believe you were with Mr. Epstein
[1:45:12]in the presence of women or men
[1:45:16]modeling clothes or underwear?
[1:45:22]I think the answer is no,
[1:45:23]but I'm not sure I understand the question.
[1:45:25]I'll move on.
[1:45:26]Did, just a direct question for you, sir, also.
[1:45:30]Did you yourself ever have a sexual encounter
[1:45:34]with any individual that was introduced to you
[1:45:37]by Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?
[1:45:38]No.
[1:45:41]Did you personally have a sexual relationship
[1:45:45]with Jeffrey Epstein?
[1:45:46]No.
[1:45:50]Are you aware that others have claimed
[1:45:54]that you had a sexual relationship with Jeffrey Epstein?
[1:45:58]No.
[1:46:01]Did you ever suspect, sir,
[1:46:03]if Jeffrey Epstein ever had any sexual relationships
[1:46:07]with other men?
[1:46:08]No.
[1:46:11]But you, since it being public knowledge,
[1:46:14]you are now aware that Jeffrey Epstein
[1:46:16]had inappropriate sexual relationships with other women.
[1:46:18]Is that correct?
[1:46:22]Yes, what I know from the press, the stories, yes.
[1:46:25]Okay, thank you.
[1:46:26]Mr. Sari?
[1:46:29]Thank you.
[1:46:30]I'd like to ask you about Epstein's properties
[1:46:32]and your visits to them.
[1:46:34]Of course, Epstein and New York
[1:46:36]and New Albany houses were originally yours,
[1:46:39]we discussed earlier.
[1:46:40]And you also had a house in Palm Beach,
[1:46:42]is that correct?
[1:46:43]Objection.
[1:46:45]I think he testified that the house in New Albany
[1:46:48]was Mr. Kessler's.
[1:46:52]I'm just trying to clarify.
[1:46:53]No, thank you.
[1:46:55]And the house in Palm Beach,
[1:46:57]was there a house that you had in Palm Beach, sir?
[1:47:00]I had a, I did have a house in Palm Beach.
[1:47:02]Okay.
[1:47:03]Did you ever visit Epstein's home in Palm Beach?
[1:47:07]Once.
[1:47:10]Can you tell us about that visit?
[1:47:15]He bought a house in Palm Beach
[1:47:17]and he wanted me to see it.
[1:47:20]I think he wanted me and Abigail to see it.
[1:47:23]And we flew down on like a Sunday morning
[1:47:27]with friends of ours from Columbus,
[1:47:31]looked at the house, you know, congratulations,
[1:47:35]got back on the plane and came home.
[1:47:37]And it was a pretty modest house.
[1:47:41]Nothing special.
[1:47:42]One trip, in that trip,
[1:47:44]did you ever witness Donald Trump at the house?
[1:47:47]No.
[1:47:48]Do you recall any other prominent figures
[1:47:50]at the Palm Beach house?
[1:47:52]No, just Jeffrey and my friends.
[1:47:57]Who were the other friends?
[1:47:58]Judy and Steve Tuckerman,
[1:48:00]Dr. Stephen Tuckerman and his wife Judith.
[1:48:06]I'm sure they'll be delighted about that.
[1:48:07]No, they won't be.
[1:48:09]Did you ever visit his island
[1:48:12]in the U.S. Virgin Islands?
[1:48:13]Yes.
[1:48:15]Can you tell us about those visits?
[1:48:17]Yes, Jeffrey invited us to see it.
[1:48:24]And we were on a boat
[1:48:26]and we went to the island with our kids.
[1:48:29]So Abigail, myself,
[1:48:31]but I can't remember how many kids
[1:48:33]we had, two, three or four,
[1:48:34]but at least two,
[1:48:35]walked around for a while
[1:48:37]and left at probably an hour visit.
[1:48:41]Okay, an hour.
[1:48:42]So on that trip,
[1:48:43]do you recall seeing any prominent figures
[1:48:46]on the island?
[1:48:47]No, it was a pretty crummy island.
[1:48:50]Okay.
[1:48:51]Did you ever visit his ranch in New Mexico
[1:48:53]or his house in Jarros?
[1:48:56]Do you want to break those up for clarity?
[1:48:59]Did you ever visit his ranch in New Mexico?
[1:49:01]It was the same thing.
[1:49:02]You wanted Abigail and I to see his ranch.
[1:49:05]We flew down there
[1:49:07]and drove around for an hour or two,
[1:49:09]got back on the plane and came home.
[1:49:11]And I don't think he had a house.
[1:49:13]So you would fly just to go visit for one hour?
[1:49:17]Yeah, I would fly to Europe
[1:49:20]for one hour on business trips.
[1:49:22]It's crazy, it is.
[1:49:25]Getting on the plane to one place for me
[1:49:27]was like going to the mailbox.
[1:49:33]And he didn't have a house on the ranch
[1:49:36]and I never knew he had a house in Paris.
[1:49:39]And in the ranch in New Mexico
[1:49:41]that you spent an hour at,
[1:49:42]were there any comet figures
[1:49:44]or anyone that you recall else being there?
[1:49:46]No, as I recall, it was just Abigail and myself
[1:49:49]and I think he'd rented a trailer
[1:49:51]so it wasn't a house.
[1:49:55]That's all I know.
[1:49:57]Okay, and so to clarify,
[1:49:58]you didn't know he had a house in Paris
[1:50:00]or you did not agree to go to the house in Paris?
[1:50:02]I didn't know he had a house in Paris
[1:50:05]and therefore I didn't go to the house in Paris.
[1:50:08]Okay.
[1:50:09]Do you?
[1:50:10]During any of your visits to any of these properties,
[1:50:14]did you ever see any girls or women
[1:50:17]that looked unusually young?
[1:50:19]No.
[1:50:21]Did you ever hear rumors of any girls or women
[1:50:24]who looked unusually young visiting Epstein's property?
[1:50:27]No, never did.
[1:50:30]During any visits to Epstein's property,
[1:50:32]did you ever see photographs
[1:50:34]or other images of women or minors?
[1:50:36]Not that I recall.
[1:50:39]Did you ever become aware of Epstein
[1:50:41]transporting women or minors using assets that you owned,
[1:50:44]whether that's a plane that you owned
[1:50:46]or a yacht that you owned?
[1:50:48]Absolutely not, no.
[1:50:51]And did you ever hear of any rumors
[1:50:54]related to Epstein's personal life
[1:50:56]or in sexual activities?
[1:50:58]No.
[1:51:01]Rumors that you may have heard in the grapevine?
[1:51:09]That's kind of ambiguous.
[1:51:12]I think I'll answer you in this.
[1:51:15]I think you're asking an ambiguous question.
[1:51:20]I would go to visit David Gergen at Harvard
[1:51:24]because I was very interested
[1:51:26]in the center of public leadership.
[1:51:29]And David would say Jeffrey was up here,
[1:51:32]your friend Jeffrey was up here,
[1:51:34]and he was visiting Henry Rosovsky,
[1:51:36]who was the Dean of Harvard College,
[1:51:37]or he was visiting Larry Summers,
[1:51:39]and he always has an admin with him,
[1:51:42]or a girl, and he says he never,
[1:51:44]a woman, maybe more accurate.
[1:51:46]He never travels by himself.
[1:51:50]And I think that's what I'm referring to.
[1:51:52]I don't think I'd get through a day
[1:51:54]without hearing a rumor about somebody,
[1:51:56]so I imagine somebody close to you probably heard.
[1:52:00]No, but it wasn't,
[1:52:01]it was more like he was traveling
[1:52:03]with his admin or his secretary
[1:52:06]or his lady lawyer or his lady accountant.
[1:52:08]That's what I would hear,
[1:52:10]but it wasn't, I never heard rumors
[1:52:14]about Jeffrey was traveling around
[1:52:18]with a girlfriend for this,
[1:52:20]or a girl, it was part of his,
[1:52:23]I don't know, social visits or something.
[1:52:26]It was always, if I heard,
[1:52:27]it was in reference to work, his work.
[1:52:32]Okay, thank you.
[1:52:33]Ms. Glockert.
[1:52:35]Yes, thank you.
[1:52:38]I actually want to start
[1:52:39]in a little bit of a different place really quickly.
[1:52:43]Dr. Mark Landon, are you familiar with him?
[1:52:46]Who?
[1:52:47]Dr. Mark Landon.
[1:52:48]Yes.
[1:52:49]Okay.
[1:52:50]He was paid by Epstein on your behalf
[1:52:53]to consult on biomedical investments, is that correct?
[1:52:58]I just heard about that.
[1:53:00]I didn't know that
[1:53:03]till maybe, I don't know, the last few days.
[1:53:05]Okay, so with you knowing Dr. Mark Landon,
[1:53:10]are you aware as to whether or not Dr. Landon
[1:53:13]ever was paid to render medical services
[1:53:17]to any of the alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein?
[1:53:22]No.
[1:53:23]What is your relationship with Dr. Landon?
[1:53:30]Abigail had a complicated pregnancy,
[1:53:34]and their general obstetrician,
[1:53:38]Abigail, we've referred her to Mark Landon,
[1:53:40]he is an obstetrician,
[1:53:43]and that's how I met him,
[1:53:45]and he delivered our children.
[1:53:49]Okay.
[1:53:50]And so our relationship,
[1:53:51]my relationship with him is my wife's doctor.
[1:53:54]Did you ever introduce him to Jeffrey Epstein?
[1:53:58]No.
[1:54:00]All right, did you ever spend time
[1:54:03]with Epstein and Donald Trump?
[1:54:08]Together?
[1:54:09]Yes.
[1:54:20]Oh, and I'll answer this question accurately.
[1:54:24]I would go to some of the Victoria's Secret fashion shows,
[1:54:27]it was very important to the brand.
[1:54:29]At some of the fashion shows,
[1:54:30]Jeffrey was there and some Trump was there,
[1:54:32]and I remembered,
[1:54:33]because Trump would always introduce himself to me,
[1:54:36]and I always thought it was kind of odd
[1:54:39]that he was at the fashion show
[1:54:40]because he had nothing to do with fashion.
[1:54:43]So the coincidence of them being together at an event,
[1:54:49]it could have been that,
[1:54:50]but I have no specific recollection,
[1:54:53]never had a social,
[1:54:54]or like a drink or a cup of coffee,
[1:54:56]something that would put them together.
[1:55:03]Okay, so just to clarify,
[1:55:05]because I want to make sure we're clear on the record,
[1:55:07]you're saying that you can recall instances
[1:55:10]potentially where Epstein and Trump were together
[1:55:13]and you were in their presence,
[1:55:15]or just a random scenario where Epstein may be there,
[1:55:19]Trump may be there separately,
[1:55:21]and then you would?
[1:55:23]It would be at random, that would be accurate,
[1:55:26]if it happened, but I have no specific recollection.
[1:55:29]Okay, did you ever see or become
[1:55:36]aware of President Trump having a sexual relationship
[1:55:40]with a person who was introduced to him
[1:55:43]by Epstein or Maxwell?
[1:55:45]No.
[1:55:49]Has Donald Trump ever discussed Jeffrey Epstein with you?
[1:55:54]Nope.
[1:55:57]Did Jeffrey Epstein ever discuss Donald Trump with you?
[1:56:09]Describe it, he would name drop it.
[1:56:12]So he would say things like,
[1:56:14]I know President Clinton, or I know the Pope,
[1:56:16]or I know God, or I know you.
[1:56:20]It was that kind of name dropping,
[1:56:21]but never, I can't remember a specific place,
[1:56:26]but Jeffrey dropped a lot of names.
[1:56:29]Okay, so to clarify,
[1:56:32]you believe he specifically dropped Donald Trump's name?
[1:56:36]No, I'm saying it could've, and I don't remember.
[1:56:39]Okay.
[1:56:41]Did Epstein ever share any information with you
[1:56:44]about Donald Trump's sexual activities?
[1:56:47]No.
[1:56:48]Do you have a relationship with Donald Trump?
[1:56:52]No.
[1:56:54]But you've met him before.
[1:57:01]He introduced himself to me at the fashion show
[1:57:04]a couple of times, but I wouldn't say,
[1:57:08]hello, how are you?
[1:57:11]Like, you say met, like in, we knew each other,
[1:57:14]we don't know each other, he wouldn't,
[1:57:16]I'd be shocked if he remembered me.
[1:57:18]Okay.
[1:57:19]And I know that you specifically mentioned the island
[1:57:24]that you have been to, Jeffrey's island.
[1:57:27]Do you recall seeing any of those persons
[1:57:29]that Jeffrey Epstein name dropped
[1:57:32]while you were on his island?
[1:57:34]Nobody was there, but Abigail, myself, Jeffrey,
[1:57:39]maybe somebody cutting grass or something.
[1:57:42]There was a maintenance person, I think,
[1:57:44]if I don't specifically recall.
[1:57:47]I know for sure I was there, Abigail was there,
[1:57:50]Jeffrey was there.
[1:57:51]And there wasn't anything abnormal
[1:57:53]about the appearance of the home on the island?
[1:58:00]And the reason that I asked,
[1:58:02]just to give you clarification on what I mean by abnormal,
[1:58:06]we've heard reports of people being thrown off
[1:58:10]when they walked into his home in New York
[1:58:13]because there was a massage table
[1:58:15]that was just sitting randomly in the middle of a room.
[1:58:19]Did you see anything like that
[1:58:21]when you visited any property that belonged
[1:58:23]to Jeffrey Epstein?
[1:58:28]Well, first to clarify, when we visited the island,
[1:58:31]there was like a Pueblo building,
[1:58:34]like maybe a one room and a bathroom or something.
[1:58:38]It was pretty crummy.
[1:58:39]And the island was crummy.
[1:58:43]Trees, there was no sand, there was no beach.
[1:58:45]It was just kind of a peculiar thing.
[1:58:47]It was an island, but it was like a pile of rocks.
[1:58:50]It's just, I was kind of shocked that it was,
[1:58:54]that anybody would buy it for any purpose.
[1:58:59]As far as seeing things,
[1:59:01]I never was in the house, it is house in New York.
[1:59:07]The house in Florida, we were there after he bought it,
[1:59:09]because I mentioned with the couple,
[1:59:11]so I never saw a massage table or anything.
[1:59:18]Well.
[1:59:19]Thank you so much for your sharing.
[1:59:21]Thank you, Mr. Weinstein,
[1:59:22]for your ability to answer a lot of questions.
[1:59:25]I think when you meet the survivors,
[1:59:27]it becomes incredibly personal,
[1:59:28]especially for women on this committee, so I appreciate it.
[1:59:31]But I'd like to introduce an exhibit, I believe it's F.
[1:59:35]But the article is titled,
[1:59:36]Jeffrey Epstein Made Regular Payments
[1:59:38]to Ohio State Head of Gynecology Record Show,
[1:59:42]which is from a local affiliate.
[1:59:43]It's dated February 10th, 2026.
[1:59:45]And we'll be able to give it to you.
[1:59:47]And it's about that good.
[1:59:59]I know they're passing it out,
[2:00:00]but Mr. Weinstein, in the article,
[2:00:02]explains that recent Department of Justice files
[2:00:05]indicate that in early 2000,
[2:00:08]Epstein was making quarterly payments
[2:00:10]to Dr. Michael Landon, who is the OB-GYN
[2:00:13]and the chair of the OB-GYN department
[2:00:15]at Ohio State University.
[2:00:17]And you said that your wife received services
[2:00:20]from Dr. Landon, so you know him.
[2:00:23]Yes.
[2:00:24]Okay, Dr. Landon said the payments
[2:00:25]were consulting services.
[2:00:27]He provided for New York Strategy Group,
[2:00:30]which was some kind of firm associated with Epstein.
[2:00:33]Do you know why?
[2:00:34]Why was he getting paid the quarterly payment by Epstein?
[2:00:38]Not a clue.
[2:00:41]Do you know if there is gynecology services
[2:00:42]being offered to Epstein for victims, women?
[2:00:48]No idea.
[2:00:49]Because you're very associated
[2:00:51]with the Ohio State University, right?
[2:00:53]Yes.
[2:00:54]You were the board chair, okay.
[2:00:55]Were you aware that Jeffrey Epstein
[2:00:57]was paying him quarterly payments?
[2:00:59]No.
[2:01:00]You weren't?
[2:01:00]No.
[2:01:02]Okay, so the article suggests that Epstein
[2:01:04]would bill you and your wife
[2:01:07]for at least one of these payments in 2005,
[2:01:10]quote, as we have in prior years.
[2:01:13]That's evidence within the Department of Justice,
[2:01:15]Mr. Wexner.
[2:01:17]Were you aware of these 25,000 quarterly payments
[2:01:20]coming from your accounts in 2005 and earlier?
[2:01:24]Not till this moment.
[2:01:26]You know, Mr. Wexner, I'm watching this all unfolding.
[2:01:29]I just want you to know it's incredibly hard
[2:01:32]for people to understand you don't know this.
[2:01:38]Maybe you don't know the specific details.
[2:01:40]Maybe you don't know the dollar amounts.
[2:01:42]But Epstein was able to be empowered and able
[2:01:45]to hurt more people with your money.
[2:01:48]You understand that?
[2:01:50]Oh yeah, you're correct.
[2:01:51]I know.
[2:01:53]But you don't know the purpose of the payment
[2:01:55]and the money's coming from you.
[2:01:56]It's your money.
[2:01:58]And you don't know why he's paying a doctor
[2:02:00]at Ohio State University.
[2:02:01]Sadly, I don't.
[2:02:03]Did you introduce him to Dr. Landon?
[2:02:05]No.
[2:02:06]How did he meet Dr. Landon?
[2:02:08]I wouldn't know that he met him.
[2:02:09]Cause he's, your wife received services
[2:02:13]from Dr. Michael Landon.
[2:02:15]Yes, and so did my daughter.
[2:02:16]Okay.
[2:02:18]So was it a routine practice
[2:02:19]for the New York State strategy groups,
[2:02:21]expenses to be paid by your accounts?
[2:02:24]I never heard of it.
[2:02:25]It's weird because it's your money going in
[2:02:27]to pay for this consulting services
[2:02:30]with another company.
[2:02:33]It's weird to me too.
[2:02:34]So Dr. Landon never talked to you about these?
[2:02:37]Never.
[2:02:38]Never.
[2:02:42]Something else that comes up,
[2:02:43]because one of the claims that you're saying
[2:02:45]that you're not close friends and everything,
[2:02:47]you know, some of us have access to the redacted email.
[2:02:50]Some of us already,
[2:02:51]I think majority of us have gone down there.
[2:02:54]There is constant claims from survivors.
[2:02:57]Again, they're redacted from some of the communication
[2:02:59]directly with Maxwell or directly with other women
[2:03:02]that were helping in that scene.
[2:03:04]And your name comes up synonymously sometimes
[2:03:06]with that scene.
[2:03:08]Did you know that?
[2:03:10]Well, I know it now.
[2:03:11]Well, they also said that you were lovers.
[2:03:14]And I know it's nothing to be ashamed of.
[2:03:17]I just want you to know.
[2:03:19]It's so good.
[2:03:19]No, it's nothing to be ashamed of.
[2:03:21]But it would explain, I think,
[2:03:23]the closeness that everyone consistently says.
[2:03:26]No one ever says you're not close.
[2:03:29]Everyone says that you had a close relationship,
[2:03:32]that you and Epstein were close friends.
[2:03:36]Did you know that?
[2:03:37]Objection here, say.
[2:03:38]Okay.
[2:03:39]I think, Mr. Wexner,
[2:03:41]could you provide us with the name
[2:03:43]of every registered legal entity?
[2:03:45]And this is important,
[2:03:46]because if you don't know now,
[2:03:47]then give us the information.
[2:03:48]Help us find the people that hurt the girls
[2:03:51]with your money.
[2:03:52]I'm asking and urging you to, please.
[2:03:55]You started your business with your AIDA's money.
[2:03:58]You don't want your legacy to be not just Epstein,
[2:04:00]but Dr., what is the guy's other name?
[2:04:02]Dr. Richard Strauss?
[2:04:05]Richard Strauss, who also the,
[2:04:07]well, it doesn't matter.
[2:04:08]You were chair of the Ohio State University.
[2:04:10]You were the board chair
[2:04:12]at the time that he hurt other women,
[2:04:14]athletes on campus.
[2:04:16]This is to say to you,
[2:04:18]it's not only one person that hurt women,
[2:04:21]but now two that are affiliated with you directly.
[2:04:24]And I just want to urge you
[2:04:26]that if you don't know the answers to this,
[2:04:27]follow up with our committee.
[2:04:28]Give us the information
[2:04:29]so we can find out who hurt the women
[2:04:32]and who benefited from it.
[2:04:34]So could you provide us with the name
[2:04:35]of every registered legal entity
[2:04:37]of which you were the beneficial owner
[2:04:39]between the start of your relationship
[2:04:41]with Mr. Epstein and his death?
[2:04:44]Can you provide that to the committee, sir?
[2:04:45]I would provide you with everything
[2:04:47]and anything I could to nail this up at that.
[2:04:49]Please provide that to his names,
[2:04:51]where they were registered,
[2:04:52]and the date of registration,
[2:04:53]and the names of whoever acted
[2:04:55]as the agent of those entities.
[2:04:58]You just put that request in writing
[2:05:00]and direct it to me,
[2:05:02]and we will take it in response to it.
[2:05:06]And it's important because Mr. Wexner,
[2:05:08]so you know the women that the survivors told us
[2:05:10]to follow the money consistently.
[2:05:13]The other question, and this will be my last.
[2:05:17]You claimed that you have been a victim
[2:05:20]and defrauded by Epstein, correct?
[2:05:23]Correct.
[2:05:24]Then why didn't you file charges,
[2:05:26]go after him?
[2:05:28]He used money to hurt girls
[2:05:30]and probably let young men.
[2:05:32]Why didn't you do anything to recruit your name,
[2:05:36]which has been synonymous with Epstein?
[2:05:40]Do you know your name comes up
[2:05:41]in the emails among victims
[2:05:45]who never met you,
[2:05:46]but your name was used consistently?
[2:05:49]I'm not sure I understand what the question did.
[2:05:51]The question is,
[2:05:52]why didn't you file any charges against Epstein
[2:05:54]if you congealed of $200 million that we know of?
[2:05:58]Why didn't you go after him?
[2:06:00]Well, at the time, I didn't know.
[2:06:03]And-
[2:06:03]But when you found out,
[2:06:04]why didn't you go after him?
[2:06:08]Is it because he was a good friend?
[2:06:10]No.
[2:06:14]My dad is probably laughing.
[2:06:18]No, no.
[2:06:19]One of the things my dad told me
[2:06:20]that you don't get a pissing contest with an elephant
[2:06:23]and running a public company for a long time.
[2:06:25]I'm not good at public relations
[2:06:28]or financial public relations.
[2:06:30]And so I would answer questions to analysts.
[2:06:33]I'd call people up and I'd tell them the truth.
[2:06:36]And what I learned in the course of my business career
[2:06:40]is whether it was my chief of staff,
[2:06:42]a company lawyer, personal lawyers,
[2:06:44]what should I do?
[2:06:46]And the advice is, let us handle it.
[2:06:48]You don't wanna get ahead of this.
[2:06:51]So I'm happy that today is happening
[2:06:56]because I want to help
[2:06:57]and I would do everything I can
[2:07:01]to nail that son of a bitch.
[2:07:03]And I-
[2:07:04]Please let him finish.
[2:07:06]And I can't tell you
[2:07:11]how much I value my own ethics,
[2:07:14]my own moral compass,
[2:07:16]that it has a true north.
[2:07:18]And what I think happened,
[2:07:20]now knowing about all the cons,
[2:07:23]is that Jeffrey would tell somebody
[2:07:25]that they were me or this was somebody else.
[2:07:28]I don't, you and I've never met, right?
[2:07:31]I don't recognize you, but you're a congresswoman.
[2:07:35]I think, cause-
[2:07:36]Yeah, I never met you,
[2:07:37]but you're all over the emails.
[2:07:38]Yeah, but so I presume you're a congresswoman
[2:07:41]and I presume you're not a man in women's clothing.
[2:07:45]I don't know what I didn't know.
[2:07:47]And I, this is-
[2:07:51]You know now and you can do something about it.
[2:07:53]Oh yeah.
[2:07:55]So Wexner claims,
[2:07:56]you claim that you cut ties with Epstein in 07, right?
[2:07:59]Okay.
[2:08:01]But you emailed Epstein, quote,
[2:08:03]Abigail told me the response,
[2:08:05]all I can say is I feel sorry.
[2:08:08]You violated your own number one rule.
[2:08:11]Always be careful, end of the quote.
[2:08:13]That was an email in 2008, Mr. Wexner.
[2:08:18]I know, I'm letting you know that the public knows.
[2:08:20]Probably, I was giving him the finger.
[2:08:25]That's it, thank you.
[2:08:26]We'll briefly, did the FBI or the Department of Justice
[2:08:30]ever directly speak to you about Epstein or Maxwell?
[2:08:35]Has the FBI or DOJ ever directly contacted you
[2:08:38]or spoken to you about Epstein or Maxwell?
[2:08:40]Not to my knowledge.
[2:08:40]Never.
[2:08:41]Never.
[2:08:42]And then finally, would you consider Donald Trump
[2:08:45]and Jeffrey Epstein friends or friendly?
[2:08:48]Would you classify them that way
[2:08:49]in the information that you have?
[2:08:56]I think it's really two questions.
[2:08:59]Would I think they were friends?
[2:09:01]No, Jeffrey Epstein held him out as a friend.
[2:09:07]Great, thank you.
[2:09:09]We can go off the record.
[2:09:16]We'll go back on the record.
[2:09:18]What's that?
[2:09:20]That is a microphone.
[2:09:22]Mr. Wexner, it is 1.17 in the afternoon.
[2:09:27]Our minority colleagues touched
[2:09:29]on a lot of different subject areas
[2:09:31]and I just wanna go back through
[2:09:33]and parse out some things.
[2:09:37]First, though, I want to enter as exhibit five
[2:09:40]the letter from LESS.
[2:10:06]This document is titled Letter from LESS,
[2:10:09]General News Directed to the Wexner Foundation Community.
[2:10:14]I will stipulate to you there's no date on here.
[2:10:16]The date it was posted on the website
[2:10:18]was August 8th, 2019.
[2:10:20]Do you guys have any reason to dispute that?
[2:10:25]In this letter that you wrote in August of 2019,
[2:10:30]you mentioned that you had,
[2:10:33]that Mr. Epstein had various well-known
[2:10:35]respected individuals as financial clients
[2:10:38]and in his inner circle.
[2:10:40]My question to you is,
[2:10:41]could you elaborate a little bit
[2:10:43]to who some of those financial clients were
[2:10:46]that you were aware of?
[2:10:49]Just, it says Epstein represented that he had that.
[2:10:52]He wouldn't know if he did or not.
[2:10:55]Were you aware of any of Mr. Epstein's other clients?
[2:11:01]Let me think.
[2:11:15]Well, specifically, I talked to Eli De Rothschild
[2:11:18]and so I mentioned that earlier.
[2:11:22]So, he represented their whole families
[2:11:25]that had been a whole bunch of people.
[2:11:27]I mean, most of them I never would have met,
[2:11:29]but I knew Eli.
[2:11:35]I never met people,
[2:11:39]but there were people that called me
[2:11:43]that either insinuated or said they knew Jeffrey
[2:11:51]through a financial relationship.
[2:11:54]And so, I mean, they could have been actors,
[2:11:59]but at the time, a guy calls me up.
[2:12:02]I'll give you an example.
[2:12:05]Just, it's just a question.
[2:12:07]No, no, no, because I want you to understand,
[2:12:08]this is, it's so confusing to me.
[2:12:10]He would say, like, I'm providing financial advice
[2:12:13]to the founders of Google.
[2:12:15]I'm financial, providing financial advice to Jeff Bezos.
[2:12:20]I'm providing financial advice
[2:12:24]for the chief technologist at Google.
[2:12:27]Wow, I'm in good company,
[2:12:29]because these are really smart guys with a lot of money.
[2:12:32]And you have to put yourself in the mindset of you,
[2:12:37]if my attorney said, you know,
[2:12:40]he was qualified to argue in front of the Supreme Court,
[2:12:43]I'd believe him.
[2:12:44]I didn't say to call the Supreme Court and say,
[2:12:47]tell me, is he really an attorney or did he do this?
[2:12:51]And I'd get a phone call from someone like a guy
[2:12:54]named Meyerwald.
[2:12:54]He said he was the chief technologist of Google.
[2:12:58]Jeffrey has been helping me as financial advisor.
[2:13:01]I told Jeffrey I was building a boat.
[2:13:02]He told me to call you.
[2:13:05]I said, I never built a boat, because I hadn't.
[2:13:09]But if I wanted to build a boat,
[2:13:10]I would go to Fedship, because reputationally,
[2:13:13]they're the best boat builders.
[2:13:15]Then, you know, it was,
[2:13:20]and that's the part that is so embarrassing,
[2:13:23]is what a connie was.
[2:13:25]And if you, I don't know,
[2:13:27]you believe your priest or your minister,
[2:13:29]your rabbi is what they are, you believe them.
[2:13:33]It was mostly phone calls that people would say,
[2:13:36]or if you'd bump into somebody,
[2:13:40]Jeffrey's my advisor, or Jeffrey's talked to me
[2:13:43]about stuff, or Jeffrey's helped me
[2:13:46]with financial things.
[2:13:48]I can't remember specifically.
[2:13:50]But as I look back at it, it was part of the con.
[2:13:53]So I never met Meyerwald.
[2:13:57]Can I have one second?
[2:13:58]Because I think it will move this thing along
[2:14:00]a little faster.
[2:14:03]Tell me stories, okay?
[2:14:05]Just answer the question.
[2:14:09]Mr. Wexner, you mentioned some of these phone calls
[2:14:13]from other individuals, you know,
[2:14:15]boasting about their ties with Mr. Epstein.
[2:14:18]Do you have a recollection of when most of these
[2:14:20]would have occurred, these phone calls?
[2:14:24]Pretty regularly.
[2:14:26]But specifically, I can't remember any of them.
[2:14:28]Understood.
[2:14:30]In Majority Exhibit Three,
[2:14:38]your statement from this morning,
[2:14:42]your written statement from this morning,
[2:14:44]you mentioned on the second page, I believe it is,
[2:14:50]second paragraph, approximately middle of the paragraph
[2:14:54]that you consulted Ace Greenberg and Jimmy Kane
[2:14:57]of Bear Stearns, Epstein's former employer,
[2:15:01]did I read that correctly?
[2:15:02]Correct.
[2:15:04]What did you reach out to Mr. Greenberg and Mr. Kane
[2:15:07]about at Bear Stearns with regard to Mr. Epstein?
[2:15:10]Checking references.
[2:15:12]And as far as checking those references,
[2:15:15]did anything come up surprising to you
[2:15:20]about Mr. Epstein's background?
[2:15:22]All positive.
[2:15:23]And you also mentioned, let me take a step back,
[2:15:30]Bear Stearns has mentioned and previously reported
[2:15:37]that Mr. Epstein didn't have a degree
[2:15:40]or some of the proper qualifications for his job there.
[2:15:43]Did you have any reason to doubt the qualifications
[2:15:46]of Mr. Epstein when it related
[2:15:47]to being your financial advisor?
[2:15:51]I don't recall any question that he had a degree.
[2:15:58]I don't remember asking the question.
[2:16:00]And so going off of that, other than making
[2:16:03]some phone calls to some individuals,
[2:16:05]did you ever formally check in to Mr. Epstein's past?
[2:16:10]Not beyond talking to the people I mentioned.
[2:16:19]Understood.
[2:16:21]You also state going, sorry to jump back and forth,
[2:16:24]the letter from last exhibit five,
[2:16:27]that same paragraph, the third one in the middle there,
[2:16:32]the last sentence after the comma says,
[2:16:34]I believed I could trust him.
[2:16:35]What about him, meaning Mr. Epstein,
[2:16:38]did he do that you thought you could trust him?
[2:16:50]Well, I put him in a position of trust.
[2:16:54]He was a fiduciary, it was to act in my interest
[2:16:59]and I trusted that he could do that.
[2:17:06]And your trust in him came before he actually handled
[2:17:10]any of your finances, is that correct?
[2:17:13]Correct, because initially he was like a friend of a friend
[2:17:17]who I perceived as being skilled to review Harold's work.
[2:17:22]Understood.
[2:17:25]Moving along a little bit, you may have touched on this
[2:17:28]with our minority colleagues.
[2:17:30]What was the rough portfolio
[2:17:32]that Mr. Epstein was handling for you?
[2:17:38]Probably all my personal finance, houses,
[2:17:42]equipment, cars, just inventorying of stuff
[2:17:46]the stuff, I don't know, all the financial things
[2:17:50]that someone would handle outside of their business.
[2:17:55]I'd have someone do, because it was so much stuff.
[2:18:02]And your previous, the financial advisor
[2:18:07]previous to Mr. Epstein,
[2:18:09]did that individual have power of attorney?
[2:18:14]I don't specifically remember it, but I think he did.
[2:18:18]And Mr. Epstein did have power of attorney
[2:18:21]over your financial matters?
[2:18:22]Yep, as did Dennis.
[2:18:24]And why did this become your practice
[2:18:27]to give them power of attorney?
[2:18:35]So busy traveling so much, the papers had to be signed,
[2:18:39]tax returns filed, people had to act on my behalf,
[2:18:43]so many things to sign that I needed to have
[2:18:48]somebody to do that.
[2:18:50]Understood.
[2:18:54]How involved were you with Mr. Epstein's determinations
[2:18:58]over your finances?
[2:18:59]Did you have any involvement?
[2:19:03]I'm confused about what determinations mean.
[2:19:06]More of like, did you have any oversight
[2:19:09]of what Mr. Epstein was doing as your financial advisor?
[2:19:14]Well, I'm sure he did at the time, yeah.
[2:19:16]And did he bring every decision to you,
[2:19:19]some decisions to you?
[2:19:21]What did that look like?
[2:19:23]I don't know.
[2:19:25]I mean, I was running a 20 division business
[2:19:31]in community responsibility, so if you ask me
[2:19:33]what the president of the university brought to me
[2:19:35]or what the head of the foundation,
[2:19:38]I can't remember, but I was involved in everything
[2:19:40]except just a lot of stuff.
[2:19:45]So is it a fair characterization of your testimony
[2:19:52]that Mr. Epstein had pretty wide latitude
[2:19:55]over your financial affairs?
[2:19:58]Yes, I think it's fair, pretty wide.
[2:20:05]And Mr. Epstein had access to your personal bank accounts?
[2:20:08]Is that correct?
[2:20:09]I don't recall.
[2:20:11]Do you recall if he had access
[2:20:13]to any of your business bank accounts?
[2:20:15]I'm sure he wouldn't.
[2:20:19]Did Mr. Epstein ever ask you to lend him money
[2:20:22]for any reason?
[2:20:23]No.
[2:20:25]Did Mr. Epstein ever make any attempt
[2:20:27]to blackmail you for any reason?
[2:20:29]No.
[2:20:38]Did Mr. Epstein's control over your personal finances
[2:20:42]extend to any decisions that affected
[2:20:44]the rest of your family members?
[2:20:58]I wouldn't say no, but I know that he was involved
[2:21:01]with the Children's Trust,
[2:21:02]because I learned that today.
[2:21:06]What he did that I didn't know
[2:21:07]that would have been personal,
[2:21:09]I don't know what I don't know.
[2:21:11]But to my knowledge, he would have,
[2:21:15]in a civilian way, been involved.
[2:21:17]And just to clarify to your testimony earlier
[2:21:21]about setting up trust for your children,
[2:21:27]was Mr. Epstein who helped set up
[2:21:29]the trust for your children?
[2:21:32]I don't recall.
[2:21:36]Did he handle, did Mr. Epstein handle
[2:21:38]any other financial decisions in regard to your children?
[2:21:41]Not that I'm aware of.
[2:21:48]Why, and I'm sorry, gonna switch gears
[2:21:50]a little bit here about your foundation.
[2:21:54]Why ultimately did Mr. Epstein
[2:21:56]become a trustee of your foundation?
[2:22:00]Just convenience for signing documents,
[2:22:04]financial oversight, not for the family,
[2:22:10]not anything that would be the operation
[2:22:13]of the foundation, its purpose,
[2:22:14]or review of people.
[2:22:16]It was just part of the complexity
[2:22:19]of my personal life.
[2:22:21]And forgive my ignorance,
[2:22:27]you have usually board members of foundations
[2:22:31]and separately trustee members.
[2:22:32]Is that an accurate statement?
[2:22:42]I wish I had that in mind too.
[2:22:44]I think we just had trustees.
[2:22:45]Okay.
[2:22:48]And just to clarify,
[2:22:55]Mr. Epstein, did he receive any compensation
[2:22:58]for his role on the board of the Wexner Foundation?
[2:23:02]Not to my knowledge.
[2:23:10]Do you recall who Mr. Epstein replaced on the board
[2:23:14]or how that board seat became available to him?
[2:23:18]No.
[2:23:20]Did your mother used to be a member
[2:23:23]of the foundation board?
[2:23:25]I think so.
[2:23:27]And was, due to circumstances,
[2:23:31]was she forced to step down from the board?
[2:23:36]No.
[2:23:38]She left her board position willingly?
[2:23:42]Yes.
[2:23:57]Can you describe in a little bit more detail
[2:23:59]the circumstances for why your mother left
[2:24:01]the board of the Wexner Foundation?
[2:24:10]Probably age.
[2:24:21]Mr. Wexner, what sort of materials did you use
[2:24:25]to prepare for today's deposition?
[2:24:28]I'm gonna object to anything that counsel showed him.
[2:24:30]That's my work product.
[2:24:31]Anything you reviewed on his own,
[2:24:33]he's welcome to testify about.
[2:24:36]A few documents and smart advice,
[2:24:41]like just answer questions, yes or no.
[2:24:44]Don't discuss what your attorney told you.
[2:24:47]Yeah, I mean, nothing.
[2:24:48]The question was, okay, say it again.
[2:24:52]I want to be honest.
[2:24:53]Excuse me.
[2:24:55]What documents or other materials did you use
[2:24:58]in preparation for today's deposition?
[2:25:00]Other than anything that your lawyer showed you.
[2:25:02]Oh, nothing.
[2:25:05]Are you aware of any litigation from your mother
[2:25:09]and the Wexner Foundation
[2:25:11]about her stepping down from the board?
[2:25:14]No.
[2:25:19]Was there any, excuse me,
[2:25:21]was there ever any pressure from Mr. Epstein
[2:25:23]to keep his position on the foundation's board?
[2:25:26]No.
[2:25:35]When you were in the, I'll call it the prime
[2:25:41]of your career as a CEO over your company's
[2:25:44]corporation, would you say that you were heavily evolved
[2:25:49]in the operations of the company
[2:25:51]and its related entities?
[2:25:53]Is it a big enough word?
[2:25:58]Could it be described that you like to micromanage
[2:26:05]what was going on through your companies
[2:26:07]and your corporation?
[2:26:19]I would describe my involvement
[2:26:20]and I don't think the people that I work with
[2:26:22]ever described me as a micromanager.
[2:26:26]But I was involved in so many things in the business.
[2:26:30]I love my business.
[2:26:33]And did you ever face any criticism
[2:26:38]from your corporation or its related entities
[2:26:41]about allowing Mr. Epstein to handle finances in any way?
[2:26:49]We never handled business finances
[2:26:51]and yet no one in the business was critical
[2:26:54]of Jeffrey handling his responsibilities to me personally.
[2:27:03]No one ever brought any concerns to you at all?
[2:27:07]Not that I recall.
[2:27:25]I want to circle back again to some testimony
[2:27:27]you provided earlier.
[2:27:30]You testified that Mr. Epstein stole large amounts
[2:27:35]of money from you, is that correct?
[2:27:37]Yes, I did, that's the statement.
[2:27:39]And I can't recall, did you know
[2:27:47]some partial amount of how much he stole?
[2:27:59]Well I didn't know he was stealing
[2:28:01]till after we discovered that he was a crook.
[2:28:04]And my wife's attorneys told me about it.
[2:28:08]Not that they told you what you understood.
[2:28:10]What I understood, I only understood
[2:28:13]what they told me.
[2:28:15]So I didn't discover it or count it
[2:28:19]or whatever one would do.
[2:28:21]That's the essence of your question.
[2:28:25]Does $46 million sound like an approximation
[2:28:29]of the amount that you were alerted to after the fact?
[2:28:35]I don't remember specifically.
[2:28:38]Initially Abigail just told me this is really.
[2:28:41]No, not what Abigail told you, what you understand.
[2:28:43]What I understood, there was a large amount of money
[2:28:46]and I didn't know the specific amount
[2:28:48]when it was first raised.
[2:28:51]Subsequently I found out that it was
[2:28:54]at least $100 million.
[2:28:57]Does that represent the grand total
[2:29:00]of the amount that Mr. Epstein stole from you?
[2:29:03]I don't know.
[2:29:06]I don't think I'll ever know.
[2:29:10]Do you, understanding that you
[2:29:15]found out he stole largely after the fact,
[2:29:20]were you able to piece together
[2:29:23]how he was able to accomplish this theft of you?
[2:29:27]No.
[2:29:30]You never figured out if he was, say,
[2:29:34]embezzling funds of some sort
[2:29:36]or how he would be allegedly
[2:29:37]embezzling funds of some sort?
[2:29:39]No.
[2:29:46]And you testified earlier that
[2:29:50]you did not end up pressing any charges
[2:29:54]against Mr. Epstein for the theft of your funds.
[2:29:58]Could you briefly explain to me
[2:29:59]why, again, you decided not to?
[2:30:03]Advice of advisors.
[2:30:07]Advice of advisors.
[2:30:19]And to be clear, you never suspected any wrongdoing
[2:30:22]until you ultimately know, is that correct?
[2:30:31]Did, are you aware of any advisors
[2:30:39]fearing any type of retribution from Mr. Epstein
[2:30:41]if you pursued litigation over the theft
[2:30:43]of your funds?
[2:30:47]Say that again.
[2:30:48]Did you have fear of, did your advisors
[2:30:51]have come to you with any fear of retribution
[2:30:54]from Mr. Epstein if you threatened litigation
[2:30:56]over the theft of your funds?
[2:30:58]No.
[2:31:00]No, I don't remember that at all.
[2:31:05]Are you aware of Elan Maxwell having any role
[2:31:09]in the theft of your funds?
[2:31:11]No.
[2:31:14]I want to move now to the New York City town hall
[2:31:20]home 9 East 71st Street.
[2:31:25]I believe you first purchased that home
[2:31:28]before Mr. Epstein lived in it, is that correct?
[2:31:31]Correct.
[2:31:33]Do you remember the time period
[2:31:35]in which you would have bought it, best guess?
[2:31:42]I don't know, five or 10 years before.
[2:31:45]It was a school.
[2:31:48]And then the remodeling took three years,
[2:31:50]and so I don't remember when it was,
[2:31:55]but I'm guessing it was, I don't know.
[2:31:58]And in the 80s sometime.
[2:32:01]Excuse me.
[2:32:03]And you said five to 10 years before,
[2:32:05]five to 10 years before what exactly?
[2:32:09]Before I met Jeffrey.
[2:32:10]Okay.
[2:32:13]Did you ever live in this house yourself?
[2:32:17]I described I visited it,
[2:32:19]but I never lived in New York really.
[2:32:20]I hate New York.
[2:32:25]When are you first aware of Mr. Epstein
[2:32:27]moving into that mansion?
[2:32:35]He moved in sometime after I sold it to him,
[2:32:37]but I don't know when that was.
[2:32:44]Would you be able to best guess
[2:32:47]when you sold the house to Mr. Epstein?
[2:32:55]It would have been after 1993.
[2:33:02]Are you aware that the deed to the property
[2:33:08]did not officially change hands to Mr. Epstein
[2:33:10]until the mid 2000s?
[2:33:14]No.
[2:33:21]Do you recall how Mr. Epstein purchased this house
[2:33:23]from you?
[2:33:27]Take note of that.
[2:33:28]Resume.
[2:33:33]And the sale of this townhome was at the time
[2:33:36]that Mr. Epstein was managing your personal finances.
[2:33:39]Is that correct?
[2:33:41]Correct.
[2:33:43]Is it possible that Mr. Epstein sold the house
[2:33:47]to himself without your knowledge?
[2:33:52]No, I wouldn't know or I know of course that he bought it.
[2:33:56]Did he approach you to buy that home?
[2:34:00]Yes.
[2:34:19]Do you recall approximately how much money
[2:34:21]you sold that townhome to Mr. Epstein for?
[2:34:24]I think about $20 million.
[2:34:27]Do you recall what the market value
[2:34:29]on that home was at the time?
[2:34:31]I believe it was $20 million.
[2:34:34]So you believe you got a fair deal for selling that home?
[2:34:38]I believe so, yes.
[2:34:43]It's been recently reported that your company
[2:34:49]or I guess technically one of your subsidiaries,
[2:34:52]the Two Ink,
[2:34:56]was transferred to Jeffrey Epstein's
[2:34:59]financial trust company in or around 2001.
[2:35:05]Do you have any knowledge of that happening?
[2:35:07]I don't know what Two Ink is
[2:35:09]and I did not know what it did.
[2:35:13]Two Ink wasn't one of your clothing brand subsidiaries?
[2:35:17]It was called Limited Two.
[2:35:19]That was a business that was part of the company.
[2:35:24]That's the only thing it means to me.
[2:35:27]Did you have any of your subsidiaries
[2:35:33]of your company transferred to Mr. Epstein's
[2:35:38]personal business side control?
[2:35:42]I don't think so.
[2:35:56]We previously, and we'll switch gears on you again.
[2:36:01]Um, we previously mentioned accusations from Maria Farmer
[2:36:08]and there were a subsequent set of allegations
[2:36:12]from another individual.
[2:36:14]Are you aware of who Virginia Jufre is?
[2:36:22]Familiar name, but I've heard it,
[2:36:24]but I don't connect it to anything.
[2:36:28]Did you ever have any sexual contact
[2:36:30]of any kind with Ms. Jufre?
[2:36:32]No, I have contacts that I don't even know.
[2:36:40]Ms. Jufre has accused you of performing sexual acts
[2:36:45]with her multiple times.
[2:36:47]You dispute these allegations?
[2:36:50]She must be confused.
[2:36:54]It never happened.
[2:37:01]Did Mr. Epstein ever bring up Ms. Jufre to you?
[2:37:05]No, not a familiar name.
[2:37:09]Ever mentioned Ms. Jufre giving you a massage?
[2:37:12]No.
[2:37:16]Did Ms. Maxwell ever bring up Ms. Jufre to you?
[2:37:19]No.
[2:37:28]What about her former maiden name, Virginia Roberts?
[2:37:32]Does that ring a bell to you?
[2:37:34]Never heard.
[2:37:58]I wanna return to some things we discussed
[2:38:02]and earlier in the day about travels with Mr. Epstein.
[2:38:09]I believe it was your testimony
[2:38:10]that Mr. Epstein was only on your corporate jet
[2:38:14]when you were present.
[2:38:15]Is that accurate?
[2:38:18]Yes, to my knowledge.
[2:38:21]And to your knowledge,
[2:38:26]I believe it was your testimony earlier
[2:38:28]that there would be surprise parties
[2:38:31]in which the jet was traveling to a location
[2:38:34]for one of those parties,
[2:38:36]but you could not recall Mr. Epstein
[2:38:37]being at the party, is that correct?
[2:38:39]Correct.
[2:38:40]If Mr. Epstein was not attending the party,
[2:38:43]what were the purposes of his travel with you
[2:38:45]on your corporate jet?
[2:38:48]I don't know.
[2:38:56]You have a rough estimation
[2:38:59]of how many times you would have traveled
[2:39:00]with Mr. Epstein on your corporate jet?
[2:39:05]I don't specifically recall any,
[2:39:07]but if it would have been once, twice,
[2:39:12]it would have been very few times,
[2:39:14]because the aircraft was used primarily
[2:39:17]for business purpose, and when we used it personally,
[2:39:20]we paid for the airplane.
[2:39:22]So the notion of him using the plane
[2:39:29]or being on the plane for kind of social reasons
[2:39:32]or just bumming a ride kind of thing
[2:39:36]just never happened with anybody.
[2:39:39]And I take that to mean you also never flew
[2:39:45]Mr. Epstein to locations
[2:39:48]where any of his various homes were located.
[2:39:52]Absolutely not.
[2:39:54]It was absolutely not, I never did that.
[2:40:02]And just to clarify,
[2:40:04]I believe this might have been asked earlier,
[2:40:09]did Mr. Epstein ever bring guests on these flights?
[2:40:13]Not that I recall.
[2:40:18]Your corporate plane at that time was a Boeing 727.
[2:40:24]Is that accurate?
[2:40:28]We had two aircraft, a 727,
[2:40:32]and we replaced it with a 737,
[2:40:35]and I don't remember,
[2:40:37]they looked alike except for their motors,
[2:40:40]so I can't remember,
[2:40:42]I know which came first and which came second,
[2:40:44]but I can't tell you in time.
[2:40:47]And just to back up for a brief second,
[2:40:51]did you keep detailed flight logs
[2:40:54]for the personal travels on your corporate jet?
[2:40:59]I believe we kept personal,
[2:41:02]we kept flight logs on our business aircraft
[2:41:06]and our personal airplane, always.
[2:41:12]And the corporate jet,
[2:41:16]did you sell one of these airplanes to Mr. Epstein?
[2:41:21]Are you giving me the company?
[2:41:22]The company, yes.
[2:41:23]Yeah, the company sold an airplane to Mr. Epstein.
[2:41:29]Do you recall when that sale was made?
[2:41:34]No.
[2:41:37]Can you guesstimate when that sale was made?
[2:41:43]When they delivered the 737,
[2:41:45]I don't know when it was.
[2:41:52]Do you, understanding your posture
[2:41:58]with the corporation has changed over the years,
[2:42:01]do you, have you maintained any of those flight logs?
[2:42:04]Do you have them still as records today?
[2:42:07]Never had them and don't have them.
[2:42:12]Do you know why you do not have those flight logs?
[2:42:21]I would assume CEOs don't keep flight logs
[2:42:24]of their company airplanes.
[2:42:27]It's a kind of shocking question.
[2:42:30]You wouldn't have the corresponding flight logs
[2:42:32]of when you personally used the jet
[2:42:34]on your personal finances?
[2:42:41]I think there are probably two reasons
[2:42:44]that I know we kept flight logs.
[2:42:49]I think it's a government requirement
[2:42:51]that you have to have flight logs on an airplane.
[2:42:53]But two, so many people in the business,
[2:42:56]different CEOs would be using the planes
[2:42:59]and every plane request would come to me
[2:43:03]because one, I wanted them to travel
[2:43:06]and I wanted to make sure that they were then traveling
[2:43:09]with the people that they were traveling with.
[2:43:12]So I know I approved or my admin approved on my behalf
[2:43:17]when I wasn't around who was on the airplanes and the trip
[2:43:22]because like funnily a CEO would request a trip,
[2:43:28]say they were gonna go to Denver to visit stores
[2:43:30]and there were eight people that were going
[2:43:32]on the store visit.
[2:43:33]Then I'd get and I'd approve it
[2:43:35]because that would be a good use.
[2:43:37]And then so it's a, the CEO went with by themself
[2:43:40]and I was like, no, it's not the purpose.
[2:43:42]So it was a very expensive and valuable asset
[2:43:47]to the business and I wanted to know
[2:43:49]that it was being used appropriately.
[2:43:52]But I never reviewed the flight logs.
[2:43:58]It's just that level of minutiae was beyond me.
[2:44:02]Understanding you might not have reviewed flight logs
[2:44:05]or even necessarily had a reason for acquiring them
[2:44:10]is that a record that would still be kept in the custody
[2:44:15]of either yourself for personal travel or for the business
[2:44:19]if those records were ever needed for some sort of purpose?
[2:44:23]I don't know what the business kept,
[2:44:26]but if they're there,
[2:44:27]I'm sure that they're welcome to look at them.
[2:44:31]And so would you be able to obtain those records
[2:44:33]assuming they do exist?
[2:44:34]From the company?
[2:44:35]Yes, or personally.
[2:44:37]I don't think he has access to them at the company.
[2:44:40]You guys have to be in authority.
[2:44:47]Do you recall how much you sold the plane
[2:44:51]to Mr. Epstein for?
[2:44:52]The company?
[2:44:53]The company, the company sold, sorry, my apologies.
[2:44:55]Yeah, I did, it was approximately $6 million.
[2:45:02]And what would have been the,
[2:45:05]do you recall what would have been the market value
[2:45:06]for that aircraft at that time?
[2:45:08]$6 million.
[2:45:11]Do you believe you got a fair deal for that aircraft?
[2:45:12]The company got a fair deal.
[2:45:13]Sorry, yes, the company got a fair deal
[2:45:15]for that aircraft.
[2:45:18]Yeah, I thought it was a very fair deal.
[2:45:26]Similar question to Mr. Epstein's acquisition
[2:45:30]of the New York town home.
[2:45:32]How did Mr. Epstein purchase this plane from you?
[2:45:39]From the company.
[2:45:41]I'll get there, I promise.
[2:45:42]Okay, I presume we wrote a check.
[2:45:51]And you weren't privy to any of the fine details
[2:45:57]of that deal as far as which entity Mr. Epstein
[2:46:01]would have used to buy that plane from the company?
[2:46:09]No.
[2:46:11]The plane, the value of the plane
[2:46:14]was appraised by an airplane broker.
[2:46:16]That plane was for sale for a year.
[2:46:19]And the value was $6 million.
[2:46:24]That's all I know.
[2:46:25]Understood.
[2:46:33]And excuse me, this is repetition,
[2:46:36]but did Ms. Maxwell ever travel with you on the plane?
[2:46:40]Not that I recall.
[2:46:41]On the company's plane?
[2:46:41]Not that I recall.
[2:46:47]Did you ever fly on an aircraft owned or operated
[2:46:51]by Jeffrey Epstein?
[2:46:52]Absolutely not.
[2:46:56]Did Mr. Epstein ever invite you to fly
[2:46:58]on any of his aircrafts that he owned or operated?
[2:47:11]I think he might have,
[2:47:15]but I can't specifically remember the circumstance.
[2:47:20]Some of this is really difficult to remember
[2:47:24]because Jeffrey was such a con.
[2:47:27]As I look back at it,
[2:47:33]he was much better at being a crook
[2:47:35]than I am as an honest person.
[2:47:38]And I think for the committee to understand this,
[2:47:42]the con part, I can't imagine a bigger crook or con
[2:47:47]that the world has ever seen.
[2:47:52]Do you recall what rationale you would have had
[2:47:54]for declining, taking flights with Mr. Epstein
[2:47:58]on planes owned or operated by him?
[2:48:02]I was busy.
[2:48:05]Very busy.
[2:48:07]In busy years, I was in the air flying
[2:48:09]on business purpose in the air
[2:48:11]three to 400 hours a year.
[2:48:15]If you can imagine somebody traveling in the air
[2:48:19]58-hour days and running a company,
[2:48:21]I ran it from the air as much as I did on the ground.
[2:48:28]That's the last thing I wanted to do
[2:48:29]was take a trip with anybody.
[2:48:32]Understood.
[2:48:47]Same people?
[2:48:48]I didn't recognize all of them.
[2:48:52]Okay, just focus on one.
[2:48:54]Okay.
[2:48:56]One of the subsidiaries of your corporation
[2:49:01]was Victoria's Secret, is that correct?
[2:49:04]Correct.
[2:49:05]And what is Victoria's Secret known for primarily?
[2:49:15]It's the biggest, best lingerie brand in the world.
[2:49:20]Kind of like Nike as to running shoes.
[2:49:23]Understood.
[2:49:24]And what type of events would occur
[2:49:30]to market or advertise that company
[2:49:35]while you were in control of it?
[2:49:38]Print advertising, it was TV ads.
[2:49:44]While the marketing was point of purchase,
[2:49:46]the design of the stores and of course the fashion show
[2:49:49]was kind of a magical thing for the brand.
[2:49:54]And I believe you touched on this a bit earlier.
[2:49:57]Were you aware of Mr. Epstein holding himself out
[2:50:01]to be affiliated with Victoria's Secret?
[2:50:04]Only once.
[2:50:06]When were you made aware of that?
[2:50:10]I don't remember when.
[2:50:12]Do you recall who brought that to your attention?
[2:50:15]Somebody in the company probably.
[2:50:18]I don't remember specifically who.
[2:50:24]Do you recall how he was holding himself out
[2:50:26]to be part of Victoria's Secret?
[2:50:29]He was a talent scout looking for models.
[2:50:35]Did you ever have the sense that Mr. Epstein
[2:50:40]had a certain odd interest in Victoria's Secret?
[2:50:46]No.
[2:50:48]Would he discuss the models
[2:50:50]at Victoria's Secret with you?
[2:50:52]No.
[2:50:55]Would he ask you to attend Victoria's Secret fashion shows?
[2:51:02]Would he ask me?
[2:51:03]Correct.
[2:51:04]No.
[2:51:06]Did you ever personally invite him
[2:51:08]to any Victoria's Secret fashion shows?
[2:51:10]No.
[2:51:13]I never invited him to any business event
[2:51:18]along the fashion show.
[2:51:35]Do you, or sorry, let me rephrase,
[2:51:39]are you aware of how Mr. Epstein
[2:51:41]would have been able to attend Victoria's Secret's events
[2:51:46]if not invited by you?
[2:51:56]I would presumably have called somebody in the business
[2:51:58]and said, could I come, could I get a ticket?
[2:52:01]We were, I know that we were, for business reasons,
[2:52:05]very careful about the audience that was there
[2:52:09]and about, I would guess two thirds of the audience
[2:52:12]were employees, store managers,
[2:52:16]people that had done heroic things inside the brand
[2:52:20]because it was a big company event
[2:52:23]and all the CEOs of all the companies
[2:52:25]in the company were invited.
[2:52:29]And so the people that were outside the company
[2:52:32]wasn't what I was concerned about.
[2:52:34]I was more concerned about internally
[2:52:37]that people came that should come
[2:52:41]or were at least invited because if not,
[2:52:43]it would have been the right thing to do.
[2:52:47]So my answer is I really don't know.
[2:52:59]Are you aware of Jeffrey Epstein
[2:53:01]having any other contacts
[2:53:04]within Victoria's Secret specifically,
[2:53:08]executives or anyone of that such?
[2:53:10]I'm sure you knew people or would reach out
[2:53:13]to people in the business, but I don't know.
[2:53:21]Did you ever make executives at Victoria's Secret aware
[2:53:24]that you would prevent Mr. Epstein
[2:53:25]from coming to any fashion shows or around any models?
[2:53:32]I thought you'd call.
[2:53:41]Are you aware of Mr. Epstein bringing any women
[2:53:44]to Victoria's Secret to potentially model
[2:53:48]for Victoria's Secret?
[2:53:51]No.
[2:54:02]Do you know who John Luke Brunel is?
[2:54:06]Never heard of him.
[2:54:19]Did you ever take a recommendation
[2:54:21]from Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell
[2:54:25]about hiring young women or girls
[2:54:27]for any of your companies or subsidiaries thereof?
[2:54:30]No.
[2:54:35]Did Mr. Epstein ever suggest to you
[2:54:39]that he could find models on your behalf
[2:54:41]for Victoria's Secret?
[2:54:42]No.
[2:54:55]Did you ever consider cutting ties
[2:54:57]with Mr. Epstein professionally or personally
[2:55:01]after he was caught lying
[2:55:04]that he was a scout for Victoria's Secret?
[2:55:12]Because the answer would be if I thought he was,
[2:55:14]I would have fired him.
[2:55:35]I am now going to enter as majority exhibit six
[2:55:40]a letter from a birthday book
[2:55:47]compiled for Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday
[2:55:52]in January of 2003.
[2:55:59]I will give you a second to familiarize yourself
[2:56:03]with the letter.
[2:56:03]Let's exit from those.
[2:56:05]Six.
[2:56:22]Mr. Wexner, is this letter familiar to you?
[2:56:27]I have seen it before, yes.
[2:56:31]Where have you seen it before?
[2:56:33]Part of the, I think the documents preparation
[2:56:38]for today's meeting.
[2:56:44]Did you yourself write this letter to Mr. Epstein?
[2:56:47]Sadly, I did.
[2:56:52]Did Ms. Maxwell approach you to write this letter
[2:56:55]for Mr. Epstein's birthday?
[2:57:01]The request was to write a card or a note
[2:57:04]or something for a birthday book.
[2:57:07]And did that come from Ms. Maxwell?
[2:57:09]I don't remember.
[2:57:14]Mr. Wexner, would you please read the main body
[2:57:18]of the birthday note for the record, please?
[2:57:20]I wanted to get you what you want.
[2:57:23]So here it is.
[2:57:25]Happy birthday, your friend, Leslie.
[2:57:27]And what was your understanding
[2:57:30]of what Mr. Epstein would want?
[2:57:35]He was a bachelor, so I drew a pair of boobs.
[2:57:42]As a kind of a joke and offhandedly, I'd say.
[2:57:46]Understand.
[2:57:48]I hope you do.
[2:57:50]You've said a few times throughout this deposition today
[2:57:55]that you did not consider Mr. Epstein a friend of yours.
[2:57:58]However, you signed this letter,
[2:58:00]and I quote, your friend Leslie.
[2:58:03]Why would you sign your friend Leslie
[2:58:06]to someone you did not consider to be a friend of yours?
[2:58:09]I don't know.
[2:58:14]I normally say Les, not Leslie,
[2:58:16]either when I write notes.
[2:58:18]You know, I guess I could,
[2:58:22]I can't explain why I would say you're friends
[2:58:24]if we weren't friends.
[2:58:29]Did you ever speak to Ms. Maxwell directly
[2:58:32]about this particular letter?
[2:58:35]No.
[2:58:36]Did you ever speak to Mr. Epstein directly
[2:58:38]about this particular letter?
[2:58:41]No.
[2:58:43]Was this letter something that you would commonly send
[2:58:48]to black or better term business associates?
[2:58:54]No, of course not.
[2:59:00]I was trying to be funny.
[2:59:13]I'm going to mark as majority exhibit seven a photo.
[2:59:31]I'll give you a second to reveal.
[2:59:33]Give one more.
[2:59:34]One more.
[2:59:45]Are you in this photo?
[2:59:48]Yes.
[2:59:48]And Mr. Epstein is also in this photo?
[2:59:51]Yes.
[2:59:52]And a third individual is redacted in this photo?
[2:59:55]Yes.
[2:59:57]Do you have any way of knowing
[2:59:58]who the redacted individual in this photo is?
[3:00:01]I know who the redacted person is in this photo.
[3:00:03]Who is that redacted person?
[3:00:05]My wife.
[3:00:06]Understood.
[3:00:08]Do you recall?
[3:00:09]The man in the back is Peter Lurssen
[3:00:11]and the picture was taken in Bremen
[3:00:12]when the vote was launched.
[3:00:14]We got a bunch of pictures of the vote launching.
[3:00:18]Do you recall what year that was?
[3:00:27]We had two children,
[3:00:31]probably three or four years after we were married.
[3:00:35]And did you invite Mr. Epstein
[3:00:38]to this vote launch party or event?
[3:00:40]Not that I recall.
[3:00:44]Can you recall who would have invited
[3:00:46]Mr. Epstein to this event?
[3:00:48]No.
[3:01:13]It is 2.08 and the majority will end this hour now
[3:01:18]and go off the record.
[3:01:24]We can go back on the record.
[3:01:29]Welcome back.
[3:01:32]Got just a couple of follow ups
[3:01:34]about some things you've already touched on.
[3:01:38]The New York City House.
[3:01:43]Do you remember when Epstein first
[3:01:47]had some kind of ownership interest in the home?
[3:01:53]I think you may have said after 1993.
[3:01:57]It wasn't, but I sold it to him.
[3:02:00]But I don't remember the date.
[3:02:02]The sale is reported as 1998.
[3:02:06]As far as you know, would that be the first time
[3:02:09]that Mr. Epstein had any kind of ownership of the home?
[3:02:15]Do you know?
[3:02:16]I don't know.
[3:02:18]You could tell me any date.
[3:02:20]I know it was after we were married.
[3:02:23]And whether it was a year or two, I don't remember.
[3:02:25]Was that 1993?
[3:02:27]We got married in 93, yes.
[3:02:30]Do you recall at all Mr. Epstein
[3:02:32]talking about why he wanted the home?
[3:02:36]No.
[3:02:40]With respect to the home,
[3:02:44]I think you were asked whether
[3:02:48]you felt like the sale price was a fair deal for you.
[3:02:52]And I think your answer was yes.
[3:02:54]Is that right?
[3:02:56]Yes, that's right.
[3:02:57]And with respect to the plane,
[3:03:03]I think you were asked whether you felt like
[3:03:05]the company got a fair deal at six million.
[3:03:08]And I think you said yes, is that right?
[3:03:12]Yes, because that was the asking price.
[3:03:16]I think your counsels represented to DOJ in 2019
[3:03:22]that Mr. Epstein sold himself both those assets
[3:03:25]at deeply discounted prices
[3:03:28]and that that was part of his theft from you.
[3:03:32]I'd never heard that before.
[3:03:33]Do you have any sense of why
[3:03:35]that discrepancy would exist?
[3:03:37]Not a clue.
[3:03:50]In terms of Mr. Epstein's repayment to you,
[3:03:54]I think your counsels also represented
[3:03:56]that he repaid you about $100 million in 2008.
[3:04:01]Would you have any knowledge of
[3:04:03]exactly how much he repaid you or how?
[3:04:07]No.
[3:04:12]There were a few other physical assets
[3:04:15]I just wanted to quickly touch on.
[3:04:17]Sure.
[3:04:18]There was a second home in New York City
[3:04:20]at 11 East 71st Street,
[3:04:22]so it's right next to the home that we've been discussing.
[3:04:26]And it sounds like you bought the home in 1988,
[3:04:30]Epstein bought the home from you in 1992.
[3:04:33]Do you have any recollection of that home?
[3:04:38]Take your time.
[3:04:39]Are you saying two homes in New York
[3:04:41]built next to each other?
[3:04:42]Yeah, right next to it.
[3:04:43]The address for this one would have been
[3:04:44]11 East 71st Street.
[3:04:48]No recollection of that happening.
[3:04:52]There was and still is a condo building
[3:04:58]at 301 East 66th Street in New York.
[3:05:02]It's been reported that Epstein lodged
[3:05:05]many of his victims at that building.
[3:05:08]The reporting has also been that
[3:05:11]you once owned that building
[3:05:12]and that you sold it to Mark Epstein,
[3:05:15]Jeffrey Epstein's brother, in the early 90s.
[3:05:17]Do you have any recollection of that?
[3:05:19]The building or the condo?
[3:05:20]The building.
[3:05:22]No recollection.
[3:05:27]With respect to, I think what we understand
[3:05:30]to be two homes in New Albany
[3:05:32]that Mr. Epstein owned at one point or another.
[3:05:36]So there was first a home
[3:05:39]on the 7500 block of King George Drive
[3:05:43]that Epstein received from you in 1990.
[3:05:47]Do you have any recollection of that home?
[3:05:50]I know he bought a house from Jack Kessler.
[3:05:52]It's the one we'd mentioned before.
[3:05:54]That's the only one I know about.
[3:05:56]Got it, this I think is a separate home
[3:05:57]and was earlier in time.
[3:05:59]No, no recollection.
[3:06:03]That second home, I think you mentioned
[3:06:07]that Mr. Epstein bought it from Mr. Kessler.
[3:06:12]I think the documents show that it was a company
[3:06:15]that Epstein bought the home from
[3:06:18]and I'll represent to you that it was you
[3:06:20]who signed the deed to Epstein.
[3:06:23]Would you have any knowledge
[3:06:24]about why that might have been the case?
[3:06:28]I understand the question.
[3:06:30]I signed the deed to sell the house to Jack,
[3:06:33]to sell Jack Kessler's house to Jeffrey.
[3:06:35]Yeah, and it was in your capacity representing an entity
[3:06:39]of some kind that seems to have been associated
[3:06:41]with yourself and Mr. Kessler.
[3:06:45]Just shocking.
[3:06:49]Okay.
[3:06:56]Does everyone agree that stuff like that
[3:06:58]could be just four juries?
[3:07:00]I think in this case.
[3:07:01]He asked the question.
[3:07:03]No, I mean, it's like me signing a deed
[3:07:07]to somebody else's house.
[3:07:09]It's okay.
[3:07:10]Okay, I'm sorry.
[3:07:16]And the entity for that sale was JW and CPK and company.
[3:07:22]Does that ring any bells for you?
[3:07:24]No.
[3:07:30]What is the history of that home, if you recall?
[3:07:33]In other words, was it originally built
[3:07:35]for Mr. Kessler to live in?
[3:07:38]Was it his primary residence?
[3:07:40]Yeah.
[3:07:41]And what do you recall as the purpose
[3:07:44]of the sale to Mr. Epstein?
[3:07:46]Why would Jeffrey Epstein,
[3:07:48]why did he buy that home, if you recall?
[3:07:52]First of all, I didn't recall that he bought it.
[3:07:56]I don't remember that.
[3:07:58]I know Jack had financial problems
[3:08:01]and he came to me and said,
[3:08:02]I've got problems, I gotta sell my house.
[3:08:06]That's all I recall about it.
[3:08:07]I don't think it's ever in the house.
[3:08:10]Do you recall Epstein purchasing it at the time?
[3:08:13]Were you aware of that?
[3:08:14]No, I wasn't.
[3:08:22]I'd like to ask a little bit
[3:08:24]about your personal relationship with Mr. Epstein.
[3:08:28]Some of the reporting has described you as close.
[3:08:31]I think that's been mentioned earlier today.
[3:08:34]I would just like to ask about a few examples
[3:08:37]that have been reported
[3:08:38]and just understand your knowledge of that.
[3:08:40]Sure.
[3:08:41]The New York Times, for example,
[3:08:42]has reported that sometime in the late 80s,
[3:08:45]Mr. Epstein managed the design
[3:08:48]and construction of your yacht, the Limitless.
[3:08:51]Do you have any recollection of that being the case?
[3:08:55]For this thing from the truth.
[3:08:57]Not true.
[3:08:59]I worked on the design for 10 years, me.
[3:09:04]And it took three years to build the yacht
[3:09:07]and the only person that was there beside me
[3:09:10]watching the construction was Abigail, period.
[3:09:15]And a gentleman who represented himself
[3:09:18]to the New York Times as your former captain,
[3:09:20]Craig Tafoya, seemed to be of the understanding
[3:09:23]that Mr. Epstein had a role in designing the yacht,
[3:09:27]Mr. Tafoya.
[3:09:28]From your point of view,
[3:09:29]Mr. Tafoya is simply mistaken.
[3:09:33]Absolutely mistaken.
[3:09:36]If you wanted to,
[3:09:37]I can draw it in detail for you right now.
[3:09:42]The Wall Street Journal has reported
[3:09:44]that Mr. Epstein would sometimes do personal tasks
[3:09:47]for you, such as helping your wife, Abigail,
[3:09:50]find a nanny or showing up at a restaurant
[3:09:53]with a gift for a mutual friend.
[3:09:55]Do you have any knowledge or recollection
[3:09:57]of those types of activities?
[3:10:00]Never happened.
[3:10:03]No recollection or you believe
[3:10:05]that those things did not happen?
[3:10:08]I have no recollection and believe they never happened.
[3:10:15]Vanity Fair has reported that Mr. Epstein
[3:10:17]once broke up with a woman for you here in Columbus
[3:10:21]by going to her house.
[3:10:22]This, of course, was before you met your wife.
[3:10:25]Do you have any knowledge or recollection of that?
[3:10:29]Well, did I break up with a woman?
[3:10:34]Yes.
[3:10:35]Did Mr. Epstein perform the act directly or indirectly?
[3:10:38]No.
[3:10:59]I'd like to introduce as Minority Exhibit G,
[3:11:12]an email from 2006.
[3:11:15]I'll give you a moment to look at it.
[3:11:27]I'll only be asking about a very short part,
[3:11:30]but feel free to scan it.
[3:11:32]What it looks like is an email from Mr. Epstein
[3:11:36]to somebody with a limited brand's address, D. Larson.
[3:11:40]I don't know if you would have an idea
[3:11:42]of who that probably is.
[3:11:45]My admin, Don Larson.
[3:11:47]Great.
[3:11:48]Can we have a chance to just read the email?
[3:11:49]Sure, of course.
[3:11:50]Thanks.
[3:12:32]Thanks.
[3:12:33]I've got a new email written this time.
[3:12:57]And at a certain point,
[3:12:58]I'll just direct your attention to a sentence.
[3:13:00]Yeah, no, that's fine.
[3:13:01]He's not on this, so.
[3:13:02]Yeah.
[3:13:04]So. Let's try and get it.
[3:13:04]At the very end of this email, Mr. Wexner,
[3:13:09]I would say close to the very end,
[3:13:11]there's a sentence that starts with,
[3:13:12]I believe that this information,
[3:13:16]and if you see that,
[3:13:17]I'm sure your counsel can guide you to it.
[3:13:22]And I'll read that out loud.
[3:13:25]This long email seems to relate to business topics
[3:13:29]and people,
[3:13:30]but Epstein signs off by saying,
[3:13:32]I believe that this information belongs to you,
[3:13:35]and under gang stuff rules,
[3:13:37]I cannot simply be the repository
[3:13:39]of people's hushed calls and not share with you.
[3:13:43]And the subject of the email is,
[3:13:46]for less's eyes only, please do not circulate.
[3:13:49]So the phrase gang stuff rules,
[3:13:52]is that a familiar phrase to you
[3:13:55]in this context?
[3:14:03]Jeffrey was like a Brooklyn guy,
[3:14:06]and he, in hindsight,
[3:14:07]he didn't use words like have a confidential discussion
[3:14:10]or my opinion or this is secret or private
[3:14:13]or confidential personal things
[3:14:15]that lawyers or accountants might use in normal language.
[3:14:18]He would say, this is gang stuff.
[3:14:21]Got it, so.
[3:14:23]That was just how we talked.
[3:14:25]So it was a phrase that Mr. Epstein would use
[3:14:28]to mean confidential conversations.
[3:14:31]To me, yes.
[3:14:31]Okay, and this-
[3:14:32]I don't think he ever used the other words,
[3:14:35]which, in hindsight, I didn't.
[3:14:39]But my wife would never say,
[3:14:41]it's between us, dear,
[3:14:43]but they're just,
[3:14:45]they're words or phrases
[3:14:46]that you associate with some people.
[3:14:48]And to me, it was just kind of funny
[3:14:49]that this Brooklyn guy would talk about gang stuff
[3:14:52]and gang stuff might be what he ate
[3:14:54]for dinner or something.
[3:14:56]Would he use that phrase pretty commonly,
[3:14:58]whether it's in a verbal conversation
[3:15:00]or a written email?
[3:15:03]I don't specifically remember,
[3:15:06]but I would, I don't think he ever said
[3:15:09]confidential or private.
[3:15:11]It was like his language.
[3:15:15]Thank you.
[3:15:18]With respect to, we can move on from that email.
[3:15:21]With respect to the power of attorney
[3:15:25]that gave Mr. Epstein in 1991,
[3:15:28]I know it was discussed earlier,
[3:15:30]could you just flesh out for us a little bit
[3:15:35]the theory of an unfettered power of attorney?
[3:15:39]In other words, it wasn't conditional
[3:15:41]or restricted to a particular account
[3:15:43]or a particular type of asset.
[3:15:44]It covered, as we understand it,
[3:15:46]all of your assets,
[3:15:48]which is an enormous, I think, step of trust.
[3:15:51]What is your recollection of why you made that choice?
[3:15:58]Finally, I think power of attorney is that.
[3:16:02]So the notion of having a limited power of attorney
[3:16:07]was kind of, and it's just not how I would think about it.
[3:16:11]So Harold had a power of attorney.
[3:16:14]Jeffrey had a power of attorney.
[3:16:15]Dennis Hirsch had a power of attorney
[3:16:17]because they needed it to do their work.
[3:16:20]And that's, did the advisor,
[3:16:22]as you recall, it sounds like,
[3:16:23]the previous advisor before Mr. Epstein
[3:16:26]and the subsequent advisor after Mr. Epstein
[3:16:29]both had the same scope of power of attorney?
[3:16:34]I don't know specifically, but I would think they were.
[3:16:39]I don't recall what the words say,
[3:16:41]but I think power of attorney is that.
[3:16:49]We've seen reporting, I think in the New York Times,
[3:16:52]that you accompanied Mr. Epstein
[3:16:55]to visit the White House in 1993,
[3:16:59]a few months after President Clinton took office.
[3:17:03]Do you have any recollection of that?
[3:17:06]Absolutely, it didn't happen.
[3:17:09]Didn't happen?
[3:17:10]Well, I'd been at the White House.
[3:17:12]But the only time I was at the White House
[3:17:14]when Clinton was president,
[3:17:16]he invited a group of like 20 CEOs from around the country
[3:17:20]to get feedback on the economy.
[3:17:22]And that was said,
[3:17:26]and I was there like the president
[3:17:28]of one of the lumber companies,
[3:17:30]the chairman of JP Morgan, Sears, companies like that.
[3:17:35]I was kind of the smallest fish in that bowl.
[3:17:39]But it was that purpose.
[3:17:40]And Mr. Epstein was not present?
[3:17:42]Of course not.
[3:17:44]So as far as you know,
[3:17:46]you did not visit the White House
[3:17:47]under any administration with Mr. Epstein?
[3:17:50]I never visited the White House
[3:17:53]under any administration,
[3:17:54]under any circumstance with Mr. Epstein.
[3:17:57]That I'm positive of.
[3:18:01]The New York Times has also reported
[3:18:03]that at your 59th birthday party,
[3:18:06]Mr. Epstein acted as sort of a master of ceremonies.
[3:18:10]He would give toasts and introduce guests
[3:18:12]and arrange for some people such as Alan Dershowitz
[3:18:15]and Simone Perez to attend.
[3:18:17]Do you recall the party that I'm describing?
[3:18:23]Well, Shimon was at a couple of birthday parties.
[3:18:25]I don't remember Jeffrey being there.
[3:18:30]If the party was in Columbus,
[3:18:32]I probably can remember four or five of the people
[3:18:34]that were there, and it was a surprise too.
[3:18:37]Do you recall, I suppose, at any birthday party,
[3:18:41]but that one in particular,
[3:18:42]Mr. Epstein playing that sort of a role
[3:18:45]as a master of ceremonies of sorts?
[3:18:50]No, I'm thinking even at the party
[3:18:55]that I was thinking about,
[3:18:56]the Shimon Perez, I don't,
[3:18:58]if you asked me who was there,
[3:18:59]he wouldn't have been on the list.
[3:19:01]That's not who I remember.
[3:19:02]It was a different kind of group of friends
[3:19:07]that Abigail picked to come to the party.
[3:19:10]But to the original question,
[3:19:11]do you recall Mr. Epstein ever acting
[3:19:13]as a master of ceremonies at a birthday party for you?
[3:19:16]No, absolutely not, did never.
[3:19:25]You're gonna keep quoting the New York Times?
[3:19:29]It's a good thing I don't read these papers very often.
[3:19:35]That's crazy.
[3:19:42]Like to introduce as Minority Exhibit H.
[3:20:11]I'll give you a moment to look this over.
[3:20:13]It's just one page.
[3:20:28]Three copies.
[3:21:10]So this is a file that was part of the recent DOJ release
[3:21:15]and it's some kind of draft or fully composed email
[3:21:19]from Mr. Epstein.
[3:21:20]It appears to be intended for you.
[3:21:23]We do not have knowledge of whether you ever received it.
[3:21:26]Did you ever receive this email?
[3:21:28]No.
[3:21:29]Sorry, just for the record.
[3:21:30]Did you ever receive this email?
[3:21:32]I never received this email.
[3:21:35]Or whatever it was.
[3:21:37]Understanding that you have not received it
[3:21:39]and therefore have not previously seen it, is that correct?
[3:21:42]Other than anything that counsel may have shown him.
[3:21:45]I would like to touch on a few discreet parts of it.
[3:21:51]Mr. Epstein at one point early in the email
[3:21:55]says that, quote, I owe a great debt to you
[3:21:58]as frankly you owe to me.
[3:22:01]Would you have any sense of why he might feel that way
[3:22:04]in general or did he ever express
[3:22:05]that type of a sentiment to you?
[3:22:08]No.
[3:22:09]When I saw this,
[3:22:12]like I know what you do or people do,
[3:22:16]they write letters to the file.
[3:22:17]I've never written one like a memo to myself.
[3:22:21]And so I read this and I thought,
[3:22:23]this is like cover your ass kind of thing.
[3:22:26]And this doesn't even sound the way he speaks
[3:22:30]and just nonsense in it.
[3:22:33]He also said, quote, as I'm sure you recall,
[3:22:36]you didn't sit with your mother or sister or Sharon
[3:22:39]when the conflict arose as I did it for you.
[3:22:42]You didn't sit with Jack Kessler,
[3:22:44]Stanley or Stanley's son.
[3:22:46]I did it for you.
[3:22:48]Do you have any sense of what Mr. Epstein
[3:22:50]might be referring to there?
[3:22:54]Well, I don't know what he's referring to
[3:22:55]about my mother or my sister.
[3:22:58]I know who Sharon was.
[3:23:00]Stanley, I presume was our previous attorney.
[3:23:05]Stanley Schwartz and his son worked in our business
[3:23:08]and worked in it until he retired
[3:23:12]so that I don't know what that was talking about.
[3:23:15]Did you ever ask Mr. Epstein to mediate a dispute
[3:23:19]or otherwise insert himself into a dispute
[3:23:22]with the individuals he mentioned here,
[3:23:24]your mother or sister or Sharon, for example?
[3:23:27]No.
[3:23:29]Mr. Epstein also says that, quote,
[3:23:31]Abigail and I sat, she asked many questions,
[3:23:34]she made many unfair, aggressive and false accusations,
[3:23:38]none of which could have been fully answered
[3:23:40]without violating a confidence with you.
[3:23:44]Firstly, do you have an understanding
[3:23:46]of what he's referring to in terms of Abigail
[3:23:48]and he having a conversation?
[3:23:53]Well, my wife and I have no secrets
[3:23:55]of the fact that he's having a secret.
[3:23:58]It's just nonsense.
[3:24:00]He goes on to say that you and I had gang stuff
[3:24:04]for over 15 years, a great deal of it,
[3:24:06]that she was unaware of.
[3:24:08]I had no intention of divulging any confidence of ours
[3:24:11]no matter what accusations she made.
[3:24:14]So Mr. Epstein, at least, seems to be asserting
[3:24:16]that there was something confidential between you and he
[3:24:19]that your wife was not aware of.
[3:24:22]Do you have any sense of what that might be?
[3:24:25]No, I'm gonna object to the whole thing.
[3:24:29]This is why we have the hearsay rule, but keep going.
[3:24:34]Mr. Epstein goes on to say the quote,
[3:24:35]I always told you I would never under any circumstances
[3:24:39]give it up or put you in harm's way
[3:24:41]no matter who, what or when do you have any sense
[3:24:45]of what he might be referring to there?
[3:24:50]And I'll need a verbal audible.
[3:24:52]No, absolutely not.
[3:24:57]This is cover your ass psycho babble
[3:24:59]as far as I'm concerned.
[3:25:07]I'd like to do one more exhibit
[3:25:09]on your personal relationship with Mr. Epstein.
[3:25:18]So this will be Minority Exhibit I.
[3:25:59]I'll just tell you briefly what this is.
[3:26:01]Well, good.
[3:26:01]It's long and you're not gonna have to read it.
[3:26:03]It's a PowerPoint presentation
[3:26:06]that the FBI put together that looks like
[3:26:09]within the last year, summarizing their investigations
[3:26:13]into Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.
[3:26:16]It's just their summary of the steps they took
[3:26:18]during their investigation and who was charged with what.
[3:26:21]That's what the document is.
[3:26:24]There is one page of the document that mentions you
[3:26:28]and I'll direct you to that.
[3:26:31]It is all the way towards the back.
[3:26:34]So I've never seen an FBI document
[3:26:37]but should they be giving this shit to me?
[3:26:41]So there's one page towards the back
[3:26:43]that ends in nine, five, six.
[3:26:46]I think it's the third from the last page
[3:26:48]of the presentation.
[3:26:50]There's an earlier reference on nine, four, nine.
[3:26:57]Oh, right, confirming the proper.
[3:26:58]Apologies, there is, agreed.
[3:27:01]Which page do you want me to look at?
[3:27:02]Ending in nine, five, six,
[3:27:05]the only substantive mention of you.
[3:27:08]Yes.
[3:27:09]You can see, this is a slide that's titled Prominent Names
[3:27:15]and it's naming some prominent individuals
[3:27:17]who have some connection or link to Mr. Epstein.
[3:27:21]Your name appears in the middle column
[3:27:24]all the way down at the bottom.
[3:27:26]And under Les Wexner, it just has one entry.
[3:27:30]There's a name that's redacted
[3:27:32]and it's redacted name stated,
[3:27:34]Epstein earned his money
[3:27:35]from having homosexual sex with Wexner.
[3:27:38]I know you were asked this question earlier
[3:27:40]but in the context of this FBI report,
[3:27:44]is it correct that you did not have any sexual
[3:27:46]or romantic relationship with Mr. Epstein?
[3:27:50]Absolutely not, or any man ever.
[3:27:53]I'm very straight, super straight.
[3:27:57]Thank you.
[3:27:59]That's wacky.
[3:28:17]I just never read an FBI report like this.
[3:28:29]Go ahead.
[3:28:30]Thank you, Mr. Wexner, for your testimony here today.
[3:28:34]Just wanted to start with a question around
[3:28:38]U.S. Senator John Husted
[3:28:42]and it's been reported that you gave him
[3:28:46]something like $117,000 in donations, is that correct?
[3:28:52]I think you mean John Husted.
[3:28:53]John Husted, yeah.
[3:28:55]I don't know how much money I gave him.
[3:28:57]Would that sound about right?
[3:28:57]It was a substantial sum.
[3:29:00]Well, I'm thinking I met John
[3:29:02]when he was a state representative
[3:29:04]and I'm sure I helped him.
[3:29:05]Helped him politically.
[3:29:08]But he ran for a lieutenant governor.
[3:29:12]I probably contributed to his centorial campaign,
[3:29:15]so is it possible over time
[3:29:17]I would have given him that much money it is?
[3:29:20]Let me be more accurate.
[3:29:21]I think it was recently reported
[3:29:22]that you gave him $117,000
[3:29:26]sometime shortly before he voted no
[3:29:28]on releasing the Epstein files.
[3:29:30]Would that sound familiar?
[3:29:31]No.
[3:29:32]No?
[3:29:33]Did you or any of your representatives
[3:29:36]ever lobby Senator Husted
[3:29:38]or anybody else in the federal government
[3:29:41]to prevent the release of materials
[3:29:44]related to Jeffrey Epstein files?
[3:29:45]Absolutely not.
[3:29:47]Did you or your representatives ever request
[3:29:50]that the Department of Justice
[3:29:51]redact your name in any files?
[3:29:54]Absolutely not.
[3:29:56]I wanted to move on.
[3:29:58]Now, I remember the document
[3:30:00]you referenced a little earlier mentioning
[3:30:03]former Prime Minister Ehud Barak.
[3:30:06]Did you ever have a relationship
[3:30:07]with the former prime minister?
[3:30:10]Can you define relationship?
[3:30:11]I'm sure I did.
[3:30:12]Any relationship.
[3:30:13]Do you know Prime Minister Barak?
[3:30:17]If so, could you elaborate on
[3:30:19]how familiar you were with him?
[3:30:21]Well, I was only with him
[3:30:22]a couple or three times in my life.
[3:30:25]I happened to be in Israel
[3:30:29]when he was elected
[3:30:30]before he was sworn in as prime minister.
[3:30:33]We had a brief meeting in his political office.
[3:30:37]It wasn't the government office.
[3:30:41]May have met him in Israel
[3:30:46]when he was prime minister, but I don't recall.
[3:30:49]I know that I had dinner with him
[3:30:53]and I think his wife and daughter and Abigail
[3:30:57]in New York after he was out of office, I think.
[3:31:01]I don't think he was prime minister.
[3:31:03]Did you ever communicate with the prime minister
[3:31:05]outside of personal meetings, phone calls, emails?
[3:31:08]He came here once, I think, for Jewish community stuff
[3:31:12]when we went to a football game.
[3:31:14]That's all I remember.
[3:31:15]Did you ever communicate by email or phone call
[3:31:17]or other correspondence?
[3:31:18]No, I don't think I ever had his address
[3:31:20]or phone number or email address
[3:31:22]or text number or whatever.
[3:31:27]Are you aware of the Wexner Foundation
[3:31:29]or any other trusts or foundations
[3:31:32]or organizations affiliated with you
[3:31:34]ever donating money to the former prime minister?
[3:31:38]No.
[3:31:39]Would it surprise you if I told you
[3:31:41]that an FBI report stated a report
[3:31:44]that the Wexner Foundation transferred
[3:31:46]at least $2.3 million in U.S. dollars
[3:31:48]to former Prime Minister Aguilar Barad?
[3:31:51]Shocked.
[3:31:52]Shocked.
[3:31:55]I wanna move to a different topic here.
[3:31:57]Are you familiar with the gentleman named Richard Adrian?
[3:32:00]Who?
[3:32:01]Richard Adrian.
[3:32:02]No.
[3:32:04]Do you remember anybody being a bodyguard
[3:32:05]from you by that name?
[3:32:08]No.
[3:32:08]1991 to 1992?
[3:32:11]No.
[3:32:11]How many bodyguards have you had
[3:32:12]over the course of your career?
[3:32:17]I don't know.
[3:32:18]Hundreds, dozens?
[3:32:19]No, not hundreds, but I don't know.
[3:32:21]Dozens.
[3:32:23]Okay, now Mr. Adrian reported that
[3:32:27]he had accompanied you between 1991 and 1992
[3:32:29]when he was your bodyguard to Epstein's Palm Beach home.
[3:32:33]Does that sound familiar at all?
[3:32:34]Objection, that's not what it says.
[3:32:37]That he accompanied Mr. Epstein,
[3:32:40]Mr. Wexner to Epstein's property.
[3:32:42]No, it doesn't say that.
[3:32:44]Are you looking at the-
[3:32:45]EFTA 1249191?
[3:32:47]Yeah, it should.
[3:32:49]I don't have it in front of me like that.
[3:32:50]No, it says that he did accompany him
[3:32:54]and then it says the bodyguard
[3:32:55]was at the Epstein residence.
[3:32:56]It doesn't say the bodyguard was at the Epstein residence
[3:32:58]with Mr. Wexner.
[3:33:01]I'm sorry, did you ever accompany the bodyguard
[3:33:04]to Epstein's Palm Beach home?
[3:33:07]Everywhere when they had security.
[3:33:09]And so what surprised you then,
[3:33:10]I believe that this is correct,
[3:33:12]that the bodyguard said that he noticed
[3:33:14]a number of young girls there, noticeably young.
[3:33:18]You've never seen young girls at the Epstein property?
[3:33:21]I was only there once for an hour
[3:33:23]and they were with my wife and another couple.
[3:33:25]I have one last question and then I'll kick it back.
[3:33:30]You mentioned a couple of times
[3:33:31]that you received $20 million for the mansion
[3:33:35]on 71st Street in Manhattan.
[3:33:37]How was that money transferred to you?
[3:33:38]I don't know.
[3:33:39]You don't know?
[3:33:42]How do you know it was ever paid to you?
[3:33:45]Well, I guess Abigail would have known.
[3:33:47]Abigail wouldn't know?
[3:33:48]Whether it was a check or it was a money order,
[3:33:50]whether it was a bag of money.
[3:33:53]I have no idea.
[3:33:54]You said $20 million,
[3:33:55]or was it just like someone say so for it?
[3:33:57]No, no, $20 million is a lot of money.
[3:34:01]Airplanes cost a lot of money too
[3:34:02]and I don't know exactly how we pay for them
[3:34:04]or if we sold an airplane exactly how we get paid.
[3:34:06]But we've bought and sold personally a few airplanes.
[3:34:10]I don't know if you asked me the same question.
[3:34:12]I don't know.
[3:34:13]And so I think we have a number of media references
[3:34:17]in the New York Times.
[3:34:18]I think the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg,
[3:34:20]all noting that no cash was transferred
[3:34:23]at the time of a central transaction.
[3:34:26]No exchange of money was noted at the time.
[3:34:29]So do you have any records,
[3:34:31]like after the fact, after you learned
[3:34:33]that Jeffrey Epstein, as you put it, stole from you,
[3:34:37]did you ever look into how that money was transferred
[3:34:39]to you?
[3:34:40]No.
[3:34:41]No, didn't strike your interest even though you knew
[3:34:43]that Jeffrey Epstein was stealing from you?
[3:34:49]Once I knew he was stealing from me,
[3:34:50]it was, again, my wife's a very competent
[3:34:53]business attorney with good accountants.
[3:34:57]I believe good counsel and it's not what I do.
[3:34:59]And I don't go back and, you know,
[3:35:03]if I fired somebody in the business,
[3:35:05]I didn't follow them to see if they behaved badly again.
[3:35:08]They were done.
[3:35:09]That's just how I am.
[3:35:10]Let me then follow up and ask,
[3:35:11]did your wife ever mention to you
[3:35:13]how the money was transferred?
[3:35:15]No.
[3:35:16]Or that it was transferred?
[3:35:17]Objection as to spousal privilege,
[3:35:18]but he's already answered.
[3:35:20]All right, thank you very much then.
[3:35:25]Steve Lanch, math officials.
[3:35:29]How long did you know Mr. Epstein?
[3:35:32]When did you first meet him?
[3:35:40]I think they asked me that question earlier
[3:35:42]before you joined this group.
[3:35:44]I think it was like five years before I got married
[3:35:46]about early eighties, I would guess.
[3:35:48]Early eighties?
[3:35:49]I think so, I don't remember precisely.
[3:35:51]And in all the time that you knew him
[3:35:56]and he worked for you,
[3:35:57]he was your power of attorney,
[3:35:59]handled a lot of really important things in your life.
[3:36:06]Did you ever, do you remember him ever having
[3:36:12]a romantic interest or women in your presence
[3:36:16]as his guests or associates?
[3:36:22]I mentioned earlier too,
[3:36:24]the first one was Dr. Ava Anderson.
[3:36:26]I met her, and Jeffrey said they,
[3:36:30]when I first met her, whatever that was,
[3:36:32]the day before early eighties.
[3:36:34]And my understanding, because meeting her,
[3:36:39]that Ava was a very attractive woman.
[3:36:43]I think she was in med school.
[3:36:45]So she was a serious person,
[3:36:50]and she is a serious person.
[3:36:52]She's an oncologist, she's married, she has children.
[3:36:55]And then, I don't know how many years later
[3:36:58]he broke up with Ava, and Glenn came into his life
[3:37:02]probably about the time I got engaged in.
[3:37:07]What was that, sir?
[3:37:09]I got engaged in nine,
[3:37:13]I got engaged on September 8th, 1992,
[3:37:17]because I got engaged on my birthday.
[3:37:19]And so at that point, Mr. Epstein's relationship
[3:37:23]with Ghislaine Maxwell was romantic at the time.
[3:37:27]It was about then that I met her,
[3:37:30]and they said they were gonna get married.
[3:37:32]And it was, I was getting married.
[3:37:40]Jeffrey was getting married,
[3:37:42]so it seemed like everybody was gonna be
[3:37:45]in Happy Valley in terms of their life.
[3:37:50]And both women,
[3:37:55]I mean, there were grown-up women.
[3:37:57]Ghislaine is exactly the same age as Abigail,
[3:38:01]and very smart.
[3:38:04]She said she was like an honors graduate
[3:38:06]of Cambridge or Oxford, and it's quite charming,
[3:38:10]and you know, she acts an attractive woman,
[3:38:14]so I was very happy for them.
[3:38:17]Do you ever remember spending time with Epstein
[3:38:20]and any of his other romantic interests,
[3:38:22]girlfriends, especially younger women in your presence?
[3:38:27]No, there were no others that I was present,
[3:38:32]or mentioned.
[3:38:34]Ever in his presence with
[3:38:38]women who may have been a teenage or minors?
[3:38:46]You know, I thought about that.
[3:38:48]What did I miss about this guy?
[3:38:52]And I don't think I was ever with him,
[3:38:55]or he was ever with anyone, may he get in my memory,
[3:38:59]that I would say was under the age of 28, 30.
[3:39:02]I mean, he was with adult women,
[3:39:06]or women that, they looked adult,
[3:39:09]they said they were a lawyer and accountant or something.
[3:39:12]I know this name has come up earlier in the deposition,
[3:39:15]Virginia Dufray, Dufray, I'm sorry.
[3:39:19]Now, do you recall ever meeting her in Jeffrey's presence?
[3:39:25]Absolutely never, I don't.
[3:39:27]Or Virginia Roberts, I think her maiden name was?
[3:39:32]No, absolutely not.
[3:39:34]How about Ms. Farmer?
[3:39:36]I thought Ms. Farmer might have made allegations
[3:39:39]about something that happened here on your property.
[3:39:44]We've actually covered it.
[3:39:45]It wasn't his property, it's an adjacent property.
[3:39:48]An adjacent property, thank you for the clarification.
[3:39:51]Or certainly, on the adjacent, next door.
[3:39:55]No, never.
[3:39:56]Was that Mr.
[3:39:58]Kessler?
[3:39:59]Who's property is next door, I'm sorry.
[3:40:01]My friend, my friend was business partner
[3:40:04]in New Almanac, Jack Kessler.
[3:40:10]So no women who seemed unusually young then.
[3:40:15]Absolutely.
[3:40:16]Okay.
[3:40:18]We also understand from your counsel's proffer
[3:40:22]that you interacted with a number of other prominent
[3:40:24]people who knew and had dealings with Epstein,
[3:40:29]including Prince Andrew, various professors at Harvard,
[3:40:37]perhaps a sultan of some sort in Dubai,
[3:40:42]perhaps Howard Lutnick.
[3:40:46]With respect to Prince Andrew,
[3:40:48]who has also been accused of sexual misconduct
[3:40:53]in connection with at least one woman
[3:40:56]trafficked by Mr. Epstein,
[3:40:59]did you ever see or become aware of this interaction
[3:41:03]between Prince Andrew and one of these young women?
[3:41:10]I never met Prince Andrew.
[3:41:14]So I wasn't aware of anything other than.
[3:41:17]No chatter about that in terms of
[3:41:22]you're dealing with Mr.
[3:41:23]Either introduced by Mr. Epstein or by Ghislaine Maxwell.
[3:41:29]That whole interaction between those two and Prince Andrew.
[3:41:33]Do you have anything to add to that?
[3:41:35]I had no conversations, interactions
[3:41:40]with Prince Andrew about women or anything.
[3:41:43]I had one brief, like two sentence phone conversation.
[3:41:48]He called me here in Columbus.
[3:41:52]What was that for?
[3:41:55]To me, it's a funny story.
[3:41:58]I'm getting ready to go to work.
[3:42:00]I think I was in the garage and my wife or somebody
[3:42:03]came out and said, you have a phone call.
[3:42:05]Maybe it wasn't my wife, but it was somebody.
[3:42:07]And he said, it's a guy that says he's the Duke of York.
[3:42:10]And I thought the Duke of York, what the hell is that?
[3:42:13]So I went in the kitchen, hello, this is Andrew.
[3:42:19]I don't think he said this is Andrew, Duke of York.
[3:42:22]This is Andrew Windsor or whatever he called himself.
[3:42:25]And I said, hello.
[3:42:28]And he said, I helped my mother buy her airplane.
[3:42:33]And I know that you buy and sell airplanes.
[3:42:35]So if I could be of service with you
[3:42:38]in airplane transactions, I could help.
[3:42:41]And I said, no, thank you.
[3:42:43]We're covered.
[3:42:44]Have a nice day at home.
[3:42:45]I just kind of left my ass off
[3:42:48]that the Duke of York called me about.
[3:42:50]So he cold called you to sell you an airplane
[3:42:53]or to help you buy an airplane?
[3:42:55]It was airplane advice because he helped us.
[3:42:57]Was that a plane that you eventually sold to Mr. Absalom?
[3:43:00]Oh no, no, no.
[3:43:01]It was just, it had nothing to do
[3:43:03]with anything that was going on.
[3:43:04]It was like, I know that you buy
[3:43:06]and sell airplanes in your business.
[3:43:07]I know you have buy an airplane personally
[3:43:10]and I know you buy and sell airplanes.
[3:43:12]And when you do, if you need an advisor, I'm available.
[3:43:15]And it's like, no, thank you, I'm covered.
[3:43:17]So he offered to advise you
[3:43:19]on purchasing airplanes?
[3:43:21]Pardon?
[3:43:23]Did he?
[3:43:24]He offered to advise you?
[3:43:24]I'm just trying to understand why the Prince of York
[3:43:27]would be calling you about buying an airplane.
[3:43:29]Yeah, me too.
[3:43:30]It was like out of the blue.
[3:43:34]I mean, you could have called me up that day
[3:43:36]and said you were the Prince of York
[3:43:37]and you want to advise me on my lunch or something.
[3:43:39]It was like, what the hell's this?
[3:43:42]If you were to recognize the difference in accents.
[3:43:45]Yeah, maybe, maybe.
[3:43:49]And with respect to those other figures who I mentioned,
[3:43:53]did you ever see or become aware
[3:43:54]of any prominent academic figures
[3:43:58]or this so-called Sultan of Dubai
[3:44:03]or Howard Lutnick or any other notable person
[3:44:10]being introduced to young women
[3:44:18]by either Epstein or Maxwell?
[3:44:23]Well, I've never met Howard Lutnick.
[3:44:26]Didn't know his name until he became popular
[3:44:29]or in the news.
[3:44:31]Yeah, his names extensively in the news,
[3:44:34]like you're wrong.
[3:44:36]I just never heard his name, didn't know him.
[3:44:39]Some of the people that were on that list,
[3:44:42]I knew their names and some of them
[3:44:46]introduced themselves to me.
[3:44:48]But that wasn't his question.
[3:44:49]I understand.
[3:44:52]Wasn't it?
[3:44:53]No.
[3:44:54]Because you asked me,
[3:44:55]I thought you asked if I knew this.
[3:44:57]Any other of those prominent individuals,
[3:45:00]were you aware that either Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell
[3:45:05]was facilitating introductions or contact
[3:45:10]between those individuals and young women?
[3:45:12]No, no, absolutely not.
[3:45:17]And you yourself, sir, never had physical contact
[3:45:21]with any of these young survivors or victims
[3:45:24]as they are alternatively called,
[3:45:27]these young women?
[3:45:28]Never, ever.
[3:45:34]I think that's all I have, thank you.
[3:45:37]Just two more and then we'll give you a break.
[3:45:40]First, with respect to the birthday note
[3:45:43]that we looked at earlier for Mr. Epstein's birthday,
[3:45:47]making sure we have your testimony,
[3:45:49]it's that you signed the note, your friend,
[3:45:53]but Mr. Epstein was not ever actually your friend
[3:45:56]from your point of view, is that correct?
[3:45:57]Correct.
[3:45:58]And you do not have any understanding
[3:46:00]of why you would sign that card, your friend?
[3:46:11]I think if I was sending a birthday note to somebody,
[3:46:13]I'd say your friend or something,
[3:46:16]I wouldn't just sign my name.
[3:46:18]It would be like a, I don't know,
[3:46:20]it's not a salutation, is it?
[3:46:23]It's the end of a letter or something.
[3:46:26]Yours truly, best, something like that.
[3:46:30]Do you recall ever drawing a pair of women's breasts
[3:46:34]on any correspondence with any other business associate
[3:46:38]of yours?
[3:46:39]No.
[3:46:40]We can go off the record.
[3:46:48]We will go on the record, it's 312 p.m., Mr. Wexner.
[3:46:55]I am going to ask you to bear with me for a second.
[3:47:00]I have a list of names.
[3:47:03]I will ask you one question
[3:47:07]that applies to the entirety of the list,
[3:47:10]and you will just answer yes or no.
[3:47:13]And if you answer yes to one of the names,
[3:47:15]we will come back to further explore that name.
[3:47:19]Does that make sense?
[3:47:21]You think so?
[3:47:22]Let's try it, see how it works.
[3:47:25]So the question is, have you ever had a conversation
[3:47:27]with any of the following people
[3:47:29]about Jeffrey Epstein, his crimes,
[3:47:31]his criminal investigations,
[3:47:33]or in regard to sexual activity of any kind?
[3:47:37]Okay, so not have you ever had a conversation
[3:47:40]with them, but have you had a conversation
[3:47:42]with them about those topics?
[3:47:44]Do you want to repeat it so that we are solid here?
[3:47:46]Sure.
[3:47:48]Have you ever had a conversation
[3:47:49]with any of the following people
[3:47:52]about Jeffrey Epstein, his crimes,
[3:47:55]his criminal investigations,
[3:47:57]or in regard to sexual activity of any kind?
[3:48:00]First name is Gielan Maxwell.
[3:48:03]No.
[3:48:05]Richard Kahn.
[3:48:07]No.
[3:48:09]Darren Indyke.
[3:48:11]No.
[3:48:13]Sarah Kellan.
[3:48:14]No.
[3:48:17]Leslie Groff.
[3:48:18]No.
[3:48:21]Nadia Marcinkova.
[3:48:22]No.
[3:48:24]Kathy Rumler.
[3:48:26]No.
[3:48:29]Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, formerly Prince Andrew.
[3:48:32]No.
[3:48:35]Peter Mandelson, former UK ambassador to the United States.
[3:48:41]Stephen Hoffenberg.
[3:48:42]No.
[3:48:44]John Luke Brunel.
[3:48:46]No.
[3:48:48]Jess Staley.
[3:48:50]No.
[3:48:52]Paul Morris.
[3:48:53]No.
[3:48:56]Steven Cutler.
[3:48:57]No.
[3:48:59]Mary Casey.
[3:49:00]No.
[3:49:03]Justin Nelson.
[3:49:04]No.
[3:49:06]Leon Black.
[3:49:08]No.
[3:49:10]Glenn Dubin.
[3:49:14]No.
[3:49:17]Eva Anderson Dubin.
[3:49:23]Can you kind of put those as question marks?
[3:49:25]Because I think, I'll tell you the answer later,
[3:49:31]because I want to be completely-
[3:49:33]Understood.
[3:49:36]Bill Gates.
[3:49:37]No.
[3:49:38]Any person elected or appointed to any federal office?
[3:49:42]No.
[3:49:43]Any foreign government officials?
[3:49:45]No.
[3:49:47]So you said you wanted to clarify
[3:49:49]on Glenn Dubin and Eva Anderson Dubin?
[3:49:52]Do you have clarification on that?
[3:49:55]Yeah.
[3:49:56]I know both of them.
[3:49:58]I met Eva when I thought she and Jeffrey
[3:50:02]were engaged and gonna get married.
[3:50:05]And I met Glenn at Harvard,
[3:50:13]I don't know, 10 or maybe 20 years ago.
[3:50:16]He was acquainted with someone there.
[3:50:21]And I was at David,
[3:50:28]it might have been David Gergen's funeral,
[3:50:31]something like that.
[3:50:32]And I saw them and I hadn't seen them
[3:50:34]in 10 or 15 years.
[3:50:36]And they said hello and said something.
[3:50:38]Isn't this a shame?
[3:50:40]What happened to Jeffrey?
[3:50:42]And I said, yeah, it's a shame, something like that.
[3:50:44]It was that vague.
[3:50:46]But most of the names that you mentioned,
[3:50:48]I've never heard before.
[3:50:49]I don't know those people.
[3:50:55]With Glenn Dubin, you said it was 10 to 20 years ago
[3:50:58]at Harvard.
[3:51:00]When you mentioned Eva Anderson Dubin,
[3:51:06]you said you thought she was engaged to Jeffrey Epstein.
[3:51:08]Do you know approximately when that was?
[3:51:11]About the time I got engaged to Abigail,
[3:51:13]so about 92.
[3:51:16]But I haven't seen either of them
[3:51:19]until David Gergen's funeral for maybe a decade.
[3:51:22]I hadn't talked to him.
[3:51:23]Never socialized with him.
[3:51:26]Can we just verify something?
[3:51:27]Because I think you previously testified
[3:51:28]that when you met Ms. Maxwell,
[3:51:30]it was around the time of your engagement to Abigail.
[3:51:33]Right, didn't I just say that?
[3:51:34]No, you were talking about Eva Anderson.
[3:51:36]Oh, I'm sorry.
[3:51:40]That I met Eva about the time I got...
[3:51:49]How could I do that thing?
[3:51:50]I must have met Eva when I met Jeffrey,
[3:51:54]and then met Glenn when I got engaged.
[3:52:00]So Eva would have been...
[3:52:02]10 years earlier.
[3:52:03]Early to mid-80s.
[3:52:04]Yeah, whatever it was.
[3:52:09]And I think it was only with them once.
[3:52:20]So you never, just to clarify one more name on here,
[3:52:24]you never spoke with Gillen Maxwell
[3:52:27]about Mr. Epstein or his criminal investigations
[3:52:31]of any kind?
[3:52:32]Never.
[3:52:42]It had come out a few years ago now
[3:52:46]that Ohio State University did a review
[3:52:48]of their donations,
[3:52:50]and they identified a little over $300,000
[3:52:55]in donations directly from Mr. Epstein
[3:52:58]and one of his foundations.
[3:53:00]They also...
[3:53:01]Ohio State also reported a gift
[3:53:03]of approximately two and a half million
[3:53:05]from the COUQ Foundation,
[3:53:09]which is another entity of Mr. Epstein's.
[3:53:13]Did you help facilitate any donations
[3:53:15]from Jeffrey Epstein to Ohio State University?
[3:53:18]Never.
[3:53:24]Did you personally ask Mr. Epstein
[3:53:26]to donate to Ohio State University?
[3:53:27]Never.
[3:53:33]Did you ever speak to any Ohio State University
[3:53:36]Board of Trustees members regarding Mr. Epstein
[3:53:38]or his donations to the University?
[3:53:41]Never.
[3:54:00]We discussed earlier in this deposition
[3:54:05]around the timeframe of 2019
[3:54:08]if you had any involvement with law enforcement
[3:54:12]as they investigated Mr. Epstein for his crimes
[3:54:15]he was ultimately charged with in New York.
[3:54:18]Just to clarify, did you speak
[3:54:21]to any law enforcement agency of any kind
[3:54:24]regarding Jeffrey Epstein's investigation
[3:54:26]in New York in 2019?
[3:54:31]Never, didn't.
[3:54:32]No, I don't remember ever talking
[3:54:34]to any law enforcement agency.
[3:54:39]Did you ever provide any documentation
[3:54:41]to any law enforcement agency of any kind
[3:54:44]regarding Jeffrey Epstein
[3:54:45]and his investigation in New York in 2019?
[3:54:48]Not to my knowledge.
[3:55:10]And just to be clear, you never formally interviewed
[3:55:12]with anyone from the FBI or Department of Justice
[3:55:15]about Jeffrey Epstein or his criminal investigation
[3:55:18]in 2019?
[3:55:19]Never.
[3:55:25]Did Mr. Epstein ever contact you
[3:55:27]or attempt to contact you after his arrest in 2019?
[3:55:32]I don't think so.
[3:55:34]He was dead.
[3:55:36]Well, before he died?
[3:55:37]No, I mean dead with me.
[3:55:46]Did anyone affiliated with Mr. Epstein
[3:55:48]ever reach out to you in 2019
[3:55:50]regarding his investigation in New York?
[3:55:54]Never, no.
[3:56:13]How did you first learn of Jeffrey Epstein's death
[3:56:18]in the MCC in New York City?
[3:56:25]Probably watching CNN.
[3:56:28]No one directly contacted you about his death?
[3:56:31]No one ever contacted me about Jeffrey's death.
[3:56:35]Did you ever have any reason to believe
[3:56:39]that Mr. Epstein's life was in any sort of danger?
[3:56:43]No.
[3:56:46]You mentioned in what is majority exhibit three,
[3:56:55]majority exhibit three, your statement from this morning
[3:57:03]on page three in the second to last paragraph,
[3:57:08]last sentence while others visited Epstein in jail
[3:57:10]and associated with him after his release.
[3:57:12]I did not.
[3:57:13]Are you aware of who did in fact visit Mr. Epstein
[3:57:16]in jail during that time?
[3:57:24]Directly, David Gergen told you he did after he did.
[3:57:30]And can you remind us who David Gergen is?
[3:57:34]David Gergen was a professor of practice
[3:57:38]at the Kennedy School.
[3:57:40]He was advisor for presidents
[3:57:41]of the United States TV personality.
[3:57:45]And did he tell you?
[3:57:46]My friend.
[3:57:47]Sorry, I already cut you off.
[3:57:51]Did Mr. Gergen tell you anything about his visit
[3:57:54]to Mr. Epstein while he was incarcerated?
[3:57:55]No, he just told me that he and his wife visited Jeffrey
[3:57:59]and he asked me if I did.
[3:58:00]And I said, no, I wouldn't visit that son of a bitch.
[3:58:04]Asked him why he did.
[3:58:15]Did Mr. Gergen inform you as to why he went
[3:58:19]to visit Mr. Epstein while he was incarcerated?
[3:58:23]Yeah, surprisingly he said like,
[3:58:25]sometimes people that you're acquainted with
[3:58:27]get into trouble and you should be kind or nice to them.
[3:58:32]Something that vague which seemed completely
[3:58:36]out of character for Gergen.
[3:58:38]Did you, what was your response to Mr. Gergen
[3:58:41]when he posed that to you?
[3:58:45]I think I said I'm surprised at you, David.
[3:58:54]I'm gonna switch gears a little bit here.
[3:59:06]You mentioned that David Gergen was a friend of yours.
[3:59:10]How do you characterize that Mr. Gergen was a friend?
[3:59:18]What made him a friend to you?
[3:59:24]We probably met when he went to the Kennedy School
[3:59:30]from his job at the White House.
[3:59:33]And so he was like a professor of practice
[3:59:37]in the center of public leadership.
[3:59:41]And then he became the director
[3:59:42]of the center of public leadership.
[3:59:44]And that was one of my main interests is public leadership.
[3:59:51]And we became friends and from very different backgrounds.
[4:00:01]And I didn't have much of an education,
[4:00:04]Yale, Harvard, working in the White House.
[4:00:07]And we became very close friends.
[4:00:10]And his wife reminded me after his funeral
[4:00:13]we would talk every Sunday.
[4:00:15]And it's like, I know you might have friends
[4:00:20]or acquaintances you talk to regularly.
[4:00:21]I didn't even realize that we did that.
[4:00:22]We'd share books, talk about what was going on
[4:00:24]in the world.
[4:00:25]And it was very much a part of my life.
[4:00:30]And he was a wonderful person.
[4:00:32]So he was someone you would communicate with frequently?
[4:00:36]Well, about?
[4:00:38]If I was bitched out about the government,
[4:00:40]I'd call David or we'd be talking
[4:00:42]about what was going on in the CPL.
[4:00:45]And we would talk about fundraising for CPL
[4:00:48]or interviewing professors for CPL,
[4:00:51]raising money for fellowships.
[4:00:53]It was pretty much focused
[4:00:55]about government public interest things
[4:00:58]because that we had in common.
[4:01:00]I wasn't, he was a lawyer and I sold apparel, so.
[4:01:08]Would you say that you talked to Mr. Gergen
[4:01:10]more frequently than you talked to Mr. Epstein?
[4:01:16]Oh yes.
[4:01:16]Of course, prior to you and Mr. Epstein
[4:01:18]terminating your.
[4:01:20]Yeah, I talked to him more regularly.
[4:01:23]I wouldn't have remembered the repetition
[4:01:26]or the curiosity.
[4:01:30]Anne Gergen told me that after David's death
[4:01:32]how much he looked forward to our Sunday calls.
[4:01:36]And I don't know, as you get older sometimes
[4:01:38]you look back and somebody touches your life
[4:01:41]and you don't realize that you're calling him
[4:01:45]every Sunday because that was just
[4:01:47]like you brush your teeth every Sunday
[4:01:49]I'd call him or he'd call me.
[4:01:55]Apologies, gonna switch gears quite a bit here.
[4:02:00]We were discussing a lot earlier
[4:02:03]that the property that Mr. Epstein had owned
[4:02:07]that was, I believe you characterized as
[4:02:10]adjacent to your property formerly Jack Kessler's house.
[4:02:16]When at any point did people need to use
[4:02:23]your gates or go through your property
[4:02:25]to access that house?
[4:02:28]No, the properties weren't connected.
[4:02:31]There's kind of a woods between them and fields.
[4:02:36]There was no driveway.
[4:02:38]They were separate.
[4:02:43]It would be a struggle to walk
[4:02:45]between the two one foot.
[4:02:46]I understand.
[4:02:49]Speaking about your boat design and manufacture
[4:02:56]and boat launch has been mentioned
[4:02:58]a couple of times here today.
[4:03:00]Did Mr. Epstein ever travel with you
[4:03:05]or board your yacht at any point?
[4:03:09]Not that I recall.
[4:03:11]Did Ms. Maxwell ever travel with you
[4:03:13]on that boat at any point?
[4:03:16]Absolutely not.
[4:03:18]Were there any other boat trips
[4:03:21]that you and Mr. Epstein would have taken together
[4:03:24]at any point?
[4:03:26]None.
[4:03:31]I don't think I ever went anywhere on that boat
[4:03:33]without my wife and family.
[4:03:35]Understood.
[4:03:38]Do you use any aliases or nicknames
[4:03:42]when you communicate with people you're associated with?
[4:03:46]No, less.
[4:03:50]Sometimes LHW, that's it.
[4:03:57]Are you aware of Mr. Epstein having any aliases
[4:04:00]or nicknames that he would commonly use?
[4:04:02]No.
[4:04:03]Are you aware of Ms. Maxwell having any aliases
[4:04:06]or nicknames that she would commonly use?
[4:04:08]No.
[4:04:15]When speaking about your boat,
[4:04:18]you seemed to be very certain
[4:04:20]that Ms. Maxwell had never taken
[4:04:23]any type of boat trip with you.
[4:04:25]Is there a reason why you are more sure
[4:04:27]about her not attending any boat trips with you?
[4:04:33]Because it couldn't be, I'm not sure that,
[4:04:36]I know that Jeffrey didn't take any boat trips with me.
[4:04:40]That's for sure.
[4:04:44]I might not have perfect recall,
[4:04:46]but I'm positive he never took any boat trips.
[4:04:49]So I'm positive that she never took any boat trips
[4:04:51]because I only saw her a couple times in my life.
[4:04:54]Understood.
[4:04:58]Are you aware of, let me back up first.
[4:05:04]Mr. Epstein did a lot of foreign travel.
[4:05:08]Would you say that's an accurate statement?
[4:05:16]That's kind of a, I want to answer,
[4:05:18]because I don't want you to be tricking me.
[4:05:22]I thought he traveled a lot.
[4:05:25]When I thought he traveled a lot,
[4:05:27]once I knew he was a fraud,
[4:05:28]I don't believe he traveled at all.
[4:05:31]I mean, he'd tell me he was in Switzerland,
[4:05:32]he'd tell me he was anywhere in the world,
[4:05:34]and I believed him.
[4:05:35]That son of a bitch could have been in bed.
[4:05:37]I didn't know where he was calling from.
[4:05:41]To the best of your knowledge,
[4:05:42]he would inform you that he was
[4:05:44]traveling all over the world.
[4:05:45]Oh yeah, I'm in Saudi Arabia working for the king.
[4:05:48]I'm in Switzerland talking to banks,
[4:05:51]and I'm really busy and I'm tired and need to hang up.
[4:05:54]So he would reach out to me
[4:05:57]erratically and sometimes frequently,
[4:06:03]but I never believed that he said,
[4:06:11]if my wife told me she was in Chicago,
[4:06:13]I would believe it.
[4:06:14]If my walker said he was in Columbus,
[4:06:15]I would believe it.
[4:06:16]If I call Matt up, I don't ask my lawyer
[4:06:18]from Columbus, I say, are you in Columbus?
[4:06:20]Are you in bed or wherever the hell you are?
[4:06:24]And I think that was part of Jeffrey's con,
[4:06:27]and it just grinds the hell out of me
[4:06:30]that he was so busy,
[4:06:32]but I don't believe any of it now.
[4:06:35]I think it was complete bullshit,
[4:06:37]and it was part of the con.
[4:06:38]Understood.
[4:06:43]Is it fair to say that Mr. Epstein would
[4:06:48]flout that he had foreign contacts,
[4:06:51]whether it be foreign dignitaries
[4:06:54]or contacts in foreign governments,
[4:06:59]something to that effect?
[4:07:00]Do you mean flaunt?
[4:07:01]Flaunt, yes, sorry, long day.
[4:07:03]It's been a long day.
[4:07:05]Yes.
[4:07:08]Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Epstein
[4:07:12]holding citizenships in any other countries
[4:07:16]other than the United States of America?
[4:07:18]No.
[4:07:19]Have you ever seen Mr. Epstein possess
[4:07:23]any other foreign country's passport?
[4:07:27]No, or any passport, including an American one.
[4:07:39]If Mr. Epstein was talking about connections he had
[4:07:46]with foreign nations or entities,
[4:07:50]is there anyone he would most commonly refer to
[4:07:53]when speaking to you?
[4:08:05]Over the period of time, mentioned a lot of them,
[4:08:09]and somebody would repeat at some curiosity,
[4:08:11]somebody would mention once,
[4:08:15]but it's kind of a muddle.
[4:08:16]Of, yeah, but it was a pretty regular flow.
[4:08:26]Was there anyone he mentioned more often than others?
[4:08:30]More often, maybe several times
[4:08:43]he'd mentioned the Queen of England.
[4:08:45]The Queen of England?
[4:08:46]Yeah, the one that died.
[4:08:54]Did you ever get the impression that
[4:08:58]Mr. Epstein was trying to get close with
[4:09:06]people of power, influence, wealth,
[4:09:09]to better shield himself from any type of scrutiny?
[4:09:18]No, it seemed to me that that was the milieu
[4:09:20]that he operated in, and so it made sense to me,
[4:09:26]in terms of advice he was giving me,
[4:09:27]that he was dealing with the most sophisticated people,
[4:09:30]and they were his clients.
[4:09:39]And so, based off that response,
[4:09:42]would it be fair to say that you would believe
[4:09:48]that could be part of his con,
[4:09:50]was touting all these connections
[4:09:52]he had all around the world?
[4:09:55]As I look back at it today,
[4:09:56]I'm positive it was his con.
[4:09:59]I mean, as positive as I could know.
[4:10:01]I mean, the founders of Google,
[4:10:05]the President of the United States,
[4:10:08]the King of Saudi Arabia would go on and on.
[4:10:11]Every month, I'm off to do this with that,
[4:10:14]or I'm going here and there,
[4:10:16]and he was in a trust position,
[4:10:18]and foolishly, I never questioned it.
[4:10:23]It was just, it wasn't just,
[4:10:24]they was bullshitting me,
[4:10:25]or these weren't really his clients.
[4:10:30]And is it your testimony today that
[4:10:38]if Jeffrey Epstein was enriched by his connection to you,
[4:10:44]that all of that enrichment was gained through theft,
[4:10:48]deceit, and or without your knowledge?
[4:10:55]I'm not sure I understand the question.
[4:10:58]Do I know where Jeffrey got his money?
[4:11:02]I know he stole money from us.
[4:11:03]I believed he had substantial income
[4:11:07]from these make-believe clients
[4:11:10]that afforded him the lifestyle that he had,
[4:11:14]but that made sense to me.
[4:11:18]And you were, you got engaged in 1992.
[4:11:28]Do I have that correct?
[4:11:30]September 8th, 1992.
[4:11:32]And you were married then in the following year, 1993?
[4:11:37]One, two, three.
[4:11:38]That's how I remember that one.
[4:11:39]And at any point after your engagement
[4:11:44]and your ultimate marriage,
[4:11:46]did you ever engage in any extramarital affair?
[4:11:50]Or sexual contact with anyone other than your wife?
[4:11:55]No, I'm really happy you asked that question.
[4:12:57]Is it, Mr. Wexner, is it your testimony here today
[4:13:03]that Mr. Epstein's wealth came from not only yourself
[4:13:13]but also this extensive network of
[4:13:19]clients that also were wealthier,
[4:13:22]otherwise influential individuals?
[4:13:24]Good question, absolutely.
[4:13:27]And sitting here today
[4:13:33]with the benefit of hindsight being 2020,
[4:13:40]how do you think that the United States Congress
[4:13:43]could prevent the crimes, and in your words,
[4:13:47]cons and deceits that Mr. Epstein,
[4:13:50]and by extension Miss Maxwell,
[4:13:52]committed on victims around the world
[4:13:55]and specifically in the United States?
[4:14:02]Well, I would hope that this interview
[4:14:07]or whatever it is today would help you to understand
[4:14:11]that he was a crook and a con man.
[4:14:14]And in hindsight, looking back,
[4:14:21]he would make Bernie Madoff look like a Boy Scout.
[4:14:25]So complete, so diabolical, I mean,
[4:14:29]just incredible, sinister.
[4:14:32]If I were giving the government advice,
[4:14:35]I'd tell the IRS to look into Jeffrey.
[4:14:38]He couldn't have made all that money
[4:14:39]and spent all that money,
[4:14:41]and had the lifestyle he did
[4:14:43]and be the crook that he was and pay taxes.
[4:14:47]If he would do the things that he did
[4:14:51]to those women and do the things that he did to me,
[4:14:56]then anything is possible, I believe.
[4:15:01]And so the, you know, Al Capone got,
[4:15:07]he went to jail for being a crook and tax evasion.
[4:15:11]It would be so obvious to me today
[4:15:14]that now that I know Jeffrey's a crook
[4:15:16]and the things he did
[4:15:17]and the people he was associated with,
[4:15:19]there was a lot of money,
[4:15:21]and he got it from a lot of people.
[4:15:22]I can't believe that he had time to really work
[4:15:29]because he was playing so goddamn much
[4:15:31]and I never knew it.
[4:15:34]If it's my attorney or your attorney,
[4:15:37]I don't know if you're,
[4:15:37]I would assume your attorney,
[4:15:38]but if you had one and every time you talked to him
[4:15:41]and he said, I'm in the office working on your stuff,
[4:15:43]I don't think you'd run over there
[4:15:44]to see whether he was working on your stuff
[4:15:46]or believe that he wasn't in the office.
[4:15:48]But the con was so just crazy.
[4:15:54]I mean, I've searched my memory and say,
[4:15:57]why didn't I pick up clues?
[4:15:59]And I think he would have,
[4:16:01]he could trick me all over again
[4:16:03]if I was, you know,
[4:16:04]if I was in that position of trust
[4:16:07]with someone like that.
[4:16:08]Really bad, I think unbelievable stuff to me
[4:16:14]now that I look back.
[4:16:17]People that he said he knew,
[4:16:19]I believe he knew them.
[4:16:20]People that he said he worked for or where he went,
[4:16:24]but you don't do what he did,
[4:16:26]it just robbed one bank.
[4:16:28]You know, I think bank robbers rob a lot of banks.
[4:16:31]That's how I look at him.
[4:16:34]Are you aware,
[4:16:38]did any other individual come to you at any point
[4:16:44]and make clear to you
[4:16:47]that they felt they had been defrauded
[4:16:49]or otherwise wronged by Mr. Epstein in any way?
[4:16:54]No, and crazily enough,
[4:16:56]no one ever called for a reference.
[4:16:59]No one ever called you for a reference?
[4:17:01]No one.
[4:17:02]People would call that he said,
[4:17:05]like the chief technologist of Google.
[4:17:10]And then a guy would call up and say,
[4:17:11]he was the chief technologist of Google
[4:17:14]and I wanna build a boat.
[4:17:16]So somebody says they know the chief technologist.
[4:17:19]A guy calls you up and says,
[4:17:20]hello, I'm the chief technologist.
[4:17:23]I didn't, I mean, I could have been talking
[4:17:26]to an actor in hindsight.
[4:17:34]I don't think I'd ever been conned
[4:17:35]before I've seen movies about it.
[4:17:39]I think if the government really understands that,
[4:17:44]then a lot of things you'd be able to dig into
[4:17:48]that I just, he should be exposed.
[4:18:07]I think that ends it for us right now.
[4:18:08]We'll go off the record.
[4:18:14]We can go back on the record.
[4:18:21]I've got just a few sort of individual cleanup questions
[4:18:25]about things we've talked about earlier.
[4:18:29]I'll just move through them chronologically,
[4:18:31]going all the way back
[4:18:33]to when you first hired Mr. Epstein.
[4:18:35]If you could just articulate what you recall
[4:18:39]about what you thought you were getting from him.
[4:18:41]Will you describe what he ended up doing for you?
[4:18:44]But what did you understand yourself
[4:18:46]to be hiring him for at the time?
[4:18:56]You need to figure out.
[4:18:59]Look, when I met Jeffrey,
[4:19:05]I had somebody managing my personal stuff
[4:19:10]because there's just a lot of stuff suddenly,
[4:19:12]complexity in my personal life.
[4:19:14]And I didn't realize that I had so much complexity
[4:19:18]until one day it's there.
[4:19:20]To me it was, my personal set of stuff was like
[4:19:24]one day it's coal and the next day it's a blizzard.
[4:19:27]And I realized I've got houses and stuff
[4:19:30]that should be inventoried and bought,
[4:19:33]buying a car, selling a car,
[4:19:35]but just a lot of stuff.
[4:19:37]And hired Harold.
[4:19:40]And just to make sure that I went somebody
[4:19:44]who had accounting, not financial sense,
[4:19:47]because I wasn't looking to make more money,
[4:19:48]just someone that kind of managed things.
[4:19:51]And so today I guess you'd call it a family office person
[4:19:56]because I wasn't looking for accounting
[4:19:57]and I wasn't looking for investment,
[4:20:00]I was just looking for someone to just
[4:20:02]make sure that everything was in order
[4:20:04]and nothing crazy was happening.
[4:20:07]And I had sense that Jeffrey,
[4:20:10]or that Harold wasn't doing a good enough job,
[4:20:15]just didn't have the bandwidth for the complexity.
[4:20:18]And mentioned to Bob and Wendy
[4:20:21]that things were a mess,
[4:20:24]or I was worried they were a mess.
[4:20:27]And then coincidentally drove down the street,
[4:20:30]as I mentioned, met him,
[4:20:32]and asked him, I don't know,
[4:20:36]it was six months later, a year later, something,
[4:20:39]talking to Bob and Wendy.
[4:20:40]They said, we should call him.
[4:20:42]I said, call him,
[4:20:43]I said, you remember when we met?
[4:20:45]You know, I said, I've got a guy running my stuff,
[4:20:50]personal stuff,
[4:20:51]because I wanted to keep business away from personal.
[4:20:54]Could you take a look at it?
[4:20:56]You're smart, you're financially oriented.
[4:20:59]And he said, it's not what I do,
[4:21:00]but you know, you're Wendy's friend,
[4:21:02]you're Bob's friend, I'll come and take a look.
[4:21:05]So he started doing that and said,
[4:21:10]Harold isn't very competent.
[4:21:13]Nothing's amiss, just it's not tidied up the way
[4:21:16]you think you should,
[4:21:17]the way I think a professional would think
[4:21:19]things should be tidied in your financial personal life.
[4:21:24]And I said, you know,
[4:21:25]well, but you looked at this,
[4:21:29]what do I owe you?
[4:21:30]And again, part of the con was,
[4:21:33]I don't want to be paid.
[4:21:35]And so after two years of him sorting it out,
[4:21:39]cleaning it out, I thought,
[4:21:44]I started to pay him for the work.
[4:21:48]I don't remember what it was at the time,
[4:21:52]but in terms of professional fees and whatever,
[4:21:55]I thought it was fair.
[4:21:58]And that's how it happened.
[4:21:59]So I think I'm giving a long answer,
[4:22:03]but to understand in context,
[4:22:06]because if I just say yes or no,
[4:22:08]you won't understand it.
[4:22:10]I really want this whole group to understand it.
[4:22:14]And I never would have guessed I was being conned.
[4:22:20]Never, ever.
[4:22:23]The deceit was so subtle.
[4:22:26]Yes, I know.
[4:22:27]Answer the question.
[4:22:28]Okay.
[4:22:30]I'm sure we all appreciate the stories.
[4:22:31]We're just trying to answer the questions
[4:22:34]they actually wanted to answer.
[4:22:35]That's very helpful, thank you.
[4:22:37]I hope it is.
[4:22:38]And could I ask you,
[4:22:40]I think you said in the last hour,
[4:22:41]it was your understanding that Mr. Epstein,
[4:22:45]while he was working for you,
[4:22:46]also had other clients, is that right?
[4:22:49]Yes.
[4:22:51]So would that mean that his work for you,
[4:22:53]you understood it to be part-time?
[4:23:03]I wouldn't describe it that way.
[4:23:05]You know, I knew it wasn't full-time.
[4:23:07]I thought it was in full-time,
[4:23:09]because he had other clients of substance,
[4:23:12]real substance.
[4:23:13]As a listener,
[4:23:14]it sounds like substantial demands
[4:23:17]that you're describing.
[4:23:18]You were, and of course are,
[4:23:19]one of the wealthiest people in the country
[4:23:21]managing all of your personal affairs,
[4:23:24]I would think,
[4:23:25]would typically demand all of somebody's bandwidth.
[4:23:27]It sounds like that was an issue
[4:23:28]with the guy before Epstein.
[4:23:31]How was he able to do that job,
[4:23:32]but also do work for other clients at the same time?
[4:23:39]I think Peg does the work now.
[4:23:44]I think you could supervise the work,
[4:23:49]overview it,
[4:23:52]which isn't the work that I do,
[4:23:54]and say you could do really thorough work
[4:23:57]if you were doing it three or four days a month,
[4:24:00]certainly a week or a day a month,
[4:24:03]just focusing on these things,
[4:24:05]because there were accountants and tax lawyers
[4:24:07]and other people.
[4:24:09]And then in setting up, as an example,
[4:24:13]I didn't have the idea to inventory furniture
[4:24:18]or valuables.
[4:24:20]It is like,
[4:24:21]how could you have all the silverware in your house?
[4:24:25]And I didn't count forks and spoons.
[4:24:28]And it's like,
[4:24:29]Jeff said people could be walking out
[4:24:31]with forks and spoons.
[4:24:32]Gee, that's a good idea.
[4:24:34]We ought to have an inventory.
[4:24:35]Then there was,
[4:24:37]I hired a lady to be like the house manager
[4:24:42]who had run the US Embassy in Rome
[4:24:44]and said, yeah, I know how to do this.
[4:24:46]And I said, well, why don't we keep inventories of stuff?
[4:24:50]And she said, well, yeah, I could do that.
[4:24:52]So she did that as kind of a puny example,
[4:24:55]but I wouldn't have had the idea.
[4:24:58]But then all the things were inventoried
[4:25:00]that wasn't work for me or Jeffrey.
[4:25:02]It was just regularly done.
[4:25:13]Answer the question.
[4:25:14]Okay.
[4:25:15]A discrete question on a different topic.
[4:25:19]We know that at one point,
[4:25:20]you owned a property in Palm Beach.
[4:25:23]It was a large oceanfront estate.
[4:25:26]We understand that you sold that estate
[4:25:29]to a guy named Abe Ghostman or Gosman.
[4:25:32]And that later, Mr. Trump and Mr. Epstein
[4:25:35]got into a bidding war over that property.
[4:25:38]Do you have any knowledge of,
[4:25:39]or did you have any involvement in that dispute
[4:25:42]between Mr. Epstein and Mr. Trump?
[4:25:52]No.
[4:25:53]I'd like to touch on a few specific allegations
[4:25:56]that have been made with respect to Mr. Epstein's crimes.
[4:26:00]Maria Farmer has been discussed several times today.
[4:26:03]I'll try not to repeat that too much,
[4:26:05]but there are a few aspects of her story
[4:26:07]that I did want to touch on with you.
[4:26:10]Ms. Farmer has said that the home that we've discussed,
[4:26:14]you said Mr. Kessler sold it to Mr. Epstein,
[4:26:16]it's adjacent to your property.
[4:26:19]Ms. Farmer has said that that home at the time
[4:26:22]was guarded by your security staff.
[4:26:25]And at least one member of your security staff
[4:26:28]told the Washington Post that that was accurate
[4:26:30]at least at the time, which I think was 1996.
[4:26:34]Do you have any sense of why this home
[4:26:37]that at that point was not on your property
[4:26:39]and wasn't your home
[4:26:40]would have been guarded by your security staff?
[4:26:44]The objection of the hearsay, but answer.
[4:26:47]No.
[4:26:48]Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not
[4:26:49]the home was guarded by your security staff
[4:26:52]either then or now?
[4:26:58]Then, for sure not.
[4:26:59]My daughter lives there now with her husband,
[4:27:01]so I'm sure they pay attention to it,
[4:27:03]but I don't know for sure that,
[4:27:06]because it's part of the family,
[4:27:08]they pay attention to it,
[4:27:09]but that's as close as I can get.
[4:27:11]When it was owned by Mr. Kessler and Mr. Epstein,
[4:27:14]you have no knowledge of whether or not
[4:27:16]it was guarded by your security staff?
[4:27:20]I have no knowledge.
[4:27:21]I would doubt that.
[4:27:23]Frankly fucking awesome, very fucking awesome.
[4:27:26]Does that sound strange at all?
[4:27:27]It sounds a little strange to us as readers and listeners
[4:27:30]that a home that is not yours
[4:27:32]would be affirmatively guarded by your security.
[4:27:35]Me too.
[4:27:39]Ms. Farmer says that she, in the wake of her assault,
[4:27:42]reached out to the county sheriff's office
[4:27:45]and that she was told, quote,
[4:27:46]we work for Wexner,
[4:27:48]and the sheriff's office confirmed that at that time,
[4:27:50]they were contracted to assist with your security detail.
[4:27:55]Do you have any sense of why that would have been the case?
[4:27:59]Same objection to the hearsay, but can you answer?
[4:28:02]No, the closest I could get to that
[4:28:06]would be sometimes,
[4:28:09]people who work for county security,
[4:28:11]Columbus Police Force,
[4:28:12]we would use part-time police,
[4:28:16]like at entrances or patrolling,
[4:28:20]but not, they wouldn't have been employees of ours.
[4:28:23]I mean, so it's possible, but I didn't.
[4:28:27]It's weird.
[4:28:28]I don't know the sheriff.
[4:28:29]Could you elaborate for a moment
[4:28:31]on what would that part-time role have been,
[4:28:33]like a special event they would be at the entrance?
[4:28:37]Yeah, it would have been special events.
[4:28:40]Yeah, that's very accurate.
[4:28:44]Ms. Farmer says that that summer,
[4:28:45]when she wanted to leave the home,
[4:28:48]she had to call the main house, your house,
[4:28:51]and ask for your wife's permission.
[4:28:53]Do you have any knowledge about whether that's accurate?
[4:28:56]I doubt that it's accurate, and I have no knowledge.
[4:29:01]And I think you said earlier, but just to make sure,
[4:29:05]when did you first become aware
[4:29:06]of Ms. Farmer's allegations?
[4:29:09]In the press.
[4:29:11]Did your security staff or anyone else on your staff
[4:29:15]ever alert you to any unusual incident or event
[4:29:19]that happened at Mr. Epstein's house,
[4:29:22]or Mr. Epstein at the home that we've been discussing?
[4:29:31]None.
[4:29:32]Are you aware of any other incidents
[4:29:34]related to sexual assault or misconduct
[4:29:37]where somebody on your property
[4:29:39]or Mr. Epstein's former property adjacent
[4:29:42]called the sheriff's office for help?
[4:29:50]Absolutely not.
[4:29:51]Not aware.
[4:29:52]I'd like to touch on Victoria's Secret
[4:29:56]and Mr. Epstein presenting himself as a recruiter.
[4:29:59]I think you had testified that you were alerted
[4:30:04]to that issue once.
[4:30:06]It's been publicly reported that in 1993,
[4:30:10]President Cynthia Fidesz-Fields,
[4:30:12]who was an executive at Victoria's Secret at the time,
[4:30:15]was alerted that Epstein was holding himself out
[4:30:18]as a Victoria's Secret scout,
[4:30:20]and that you were alerted to the problem
[4:30:22]and, quote, said that you would stop it.
[4:30:24]Does that sound like the timeframe
[4:30:27]in which you recall being told about the issue?
[4:30:30]Maybe it doesn't, it could have been.
[4:30:32]I was trying to think when she worked in the business
[4:30:35]and when she left.
[4:30:37]But yeah, probably right.
[4:30:39]I don't know for sure.
[4:30:40]What do you specifically recall
[4:30:42]about when you were alerted to the issue?
[4:30:45]In other words, who approached you
[4:30:47]and what did they describe specifically?
[4:31:00]Something like,
[4:31:02]Jeff Lee's trying to pick up women
[4:31:04]and he says he's a Victoria's Secret talent scout.
[4:31:08]I said, that's terrible,
[4:31:12]but nonsense, or I'll put a stop to it.
[4:31:15]Something like that,
[4:31:16]because it could be possible, I think, in my memory,
[4:31:20]but I didn't believe it.
[4:31:21]But I know I called him up and said,
[4:31:25]are you, you know, Jeffrey, what is going on?
[4:31:28]He said, do you think I'm stupid?
[4:31:31]I said, because I hope not,
[4:31:32]because if not, you'll be dead.
[4:31:34]It was a very brief conversation.
[4:31:37]I remember him being definite about it didn't happen,
[4:31:41]and it wasn't a long conversation, I was mad.
[4:31:47]So it was a blanket denial from Mr. Epstein?
[4:31:51]That's very accurate.
[4:31:52]And did you believe or were you convinced
[4:31:56]by his denial at the time?
[4:31:58]At the time, yes, I did believe it.
[4:32:01]So is it right that you were no longer upset
[4:32:04]following that conversation,
[4:32:05]because you believed that he had not, in fact,
[4:32:08]held himself out as a scout?
[4:32:10]That's accurate, yes.
[4:32:11]That's how I felt.
[4:32:13]Do you recall whether you had the impression
[4:32:14]that your executives simply made the story up?
[4:32:18]I don't recall.
[4:32:26]Just knowing how I think about things,
[4:32:31]I probably would have said this is just
[4:32:34]Jeffrey Single, it's a thing to say,
[4:32:39]a rumor could get started, I gotta chase it down,
[4:32:42]because God forbid that anybody was in the business,
[4:32:46]let alone outside the business,
[4:32:47]was dating people in the business,
[4:32:49]or dating models, or recruiting them,
[4:32:51]or any of the stuff that we now know is true,
[4:32:55]I would have fired them on the spot.
[4:32:58]In May 1997, a young woman named Alicia Arden
[4:33:02]says that she was introduced to a man
[4:33:04]who identified himself as a talent scout
[4:33:06]for Victoria's Secret, that was Jeffrey Epstein.
[4:33:09]Mr. Epstein allegedly invited Miss Arden
[4:33:11]to his hotel room in Santa Monica, California,
[4:33:14]to audition for the catalog.
[4:33:17]When she arrived, Mr. Epstein grabbed her,
[4:33:19]tried to undress her, and said he wanted to, quote,
[4:33:22]manhandle her.
[4:33:23]Miss Arden fled in tears and filed a police report.
[4:33:26]It's one of the earliest allegations
[4:33:28]that are known against Mr. Epstein.
[4:33:31]Were you alerted to this sexual assault at the time?
[4:33:34]Same objection to hear, say, but go ahead.
[4:33:36]Kind of the same answer.
[4:33:39]I don't know how I knew about it.
[4:33:43]Called Jeffrey, like, what the hell's going on, Jeffrey?
[4:33:45]And I was like, do you think I'm stupid?
[4:33:49]This was a bad girl, I was on a date,
[4:33:52]she made all this stuff up,
[4:33:53]you don't think I'd behave this way, would you?
[4:33:56]And I was like, I hope not, was probably what I said,
[4:33:59]because I couldn't believe that anybody that I knew
[4:34:03]would behave like that.
[4:34:05]And what you're describing,
[4:34:06]is that the original single conversation
[4:34:09]you described earlier,
[4:34:10]or is that a separate conversation
[4:34:12]with Mr. Epstein about the issue?
[4:34:17]I'm confused.
[4:34:19]This question about the lady in the hotel in New York
[4:34:22]was one conversation, and the notion,
[4:34:25]or the discussion about Jeffrey's interviewing models,
[4:34:30]I think was a separate one, and they didn't happen,
[4:34:34]I understand, it sounds like that might have been
[4:34:35]about four years apart from each other.
[4:34:38]You could tell me four years or four months,
[4:34:39]I don't remember.
[4:34:40]So it sounds like at that point,
[4:34:42]there would have been at least two conversations
[4:34:45]with Mr. Epstein about the broader
[4:34:47]Victoria's Secret issue.
[4:34:50]In 2004, a woman named Elizabeth Attai
[4:34:53]had a similar experience.
[4:34:55]She was invited to Mr. Epstein's New York home
[4:34:58]under the impression that he would be able
[4:34:59]to get her a job as a Victoria's Secret model.
[4:35:02]Mr. Epstein apparently, allegedly,
[4:35:05]undressed and handed her a vibrator.
[4:35:08]Ms. Attai threw the vibrator at his head
[4:35:10]and ran out of the room,
[4:35:12]where you made aware of this allegation at the time.
[4:35:15]I never heard this story before.
[4:35:23]In 2005, the New York Post ran an article
[4:35:26]describing a Romanian model who allegedly
[4:35:30]land a gig at Wexner's Victoria's Secret brand
[4:35:34]thanks to Mr. Epstein.
[4:35:36]Did you have any knowledge about models
[4:35:38]who actually acquired jobs at Victoria's Secret,
[4:35:42]directly or indirectly, through Mr. Epstein?
[4:35:46]Well, I think, no,
[4:35:48]but I didn't meet, interview, or pick models.
[4:35:54]That wasn't what I did,
[4:35:55]and no one in the business did.
[4:35:59]But just to phrase it clearly,
[4:36:00]to your knowledge, did Victoria's Secret
[4:36:02]ever hire or contract with a model
[4:36:05]at the recommendation of Jeffrey Epstein?
[4:36:09]I can't imagine they did.
[4:36:12]I wouldn't know if they did,
[4:36:13]but the way that we handled our marketing,
[4:36:18]it couldn't have happened.
[4:36:20]I think I would have known,
[4:36:22]because it just wasn't the practice.
[4:36:25]Could I ask one follow-up question?
[4:36:27]With respect to that second conversation
[4:36:30]and the young woman named Alicia Arden,
[4:36:32]I know they were a few years apart,
[4:36:34]but if you recall, was there any part of you
[4:36:37]that doubted whether Mr. Epstein had been truthful
[4:36:39]in his denial with you the first time?
[4:36:48]At the time, I don't think I connected them.
[4:36:56]You can't imagine how busy I was.
[4:36:58]I was engaged, I was married,
[4:37:00]I'm running 20 businesses.
[4:37:03]I never made the connection.
[4:37:06]And as far as you recall,
[4:37:07]those are the only two times
[4:37:09]that you were alerted to Mr. Epstein
[4:37:11]holding himself out as affiliated with Victoria's Secret.
[4:37:14]Those stories, yeah.
[4:37:17]It's been reported that following Mr. Epstein's arrest
[4:37:20]in 2019, the limited company L Brands retained,
[4:37:24]two different law firms were retained
[4:37:26]to investigate Epstein's affiliation with the company.
[4:37:30]We're not aware of those reports
[4:37:31]ever having been made public.
[4:37:33]To your knowledge, were those investigations completed?
[4:37:37]When was it?
[4:37:38]This would be after the arrest.
[4:37:39]So in 2019 and 2020.
[4:37:43]I'm not aware that the board investigated Jeffrey.
[4:37:48]And I think the first law firm investigation
[4:37:51]was for the board, broadly speaking,
[4:37:53]and then some individual board members
[4:37:56]engaged a law firm to perform a second investigation.
[4:37:59]But it sounds like you have no knowledge
[4:38:00]of either investigation.
[4:38:03]I found out about two weeks ago
[4:38:05]from one of our ex-board members
[4:38:08]that he hired Kroll to investigate Jeffrey,
[4:38:11]and I never knew it.
[4:38:14]Could you elaborate on that just a moment?
[4:38:16]In other words, a board member,
[4:38:19]describe what exactly?
[4:38:22]Two weeks ago, he was worried about Jeffrey,
[4:38:30]and he asked Jules Kroll to investigate him.
[4:38:34]Is Jules Kroll an investigator?
[4:38:37]White collar, criminal,
[4:38:39]he was a Justice Department, FBI kind of a guy
[4:38:41]that started his own, I think it's the largest
[4:38:45]international and private investigation firm
[4:38:47]in the world.
[4:38:49]And so he said, and I said, so what happened?
[4:38:54]And he said, he didn't think Jeffrey was a good guy.
[4:39:00]And he said, what else?
[4:39:01]He said, that's all he would say.
[4:39:02]He said, just not a good guy.
[4:39:04]And he said, he asked him for specifics.
[4:39:06]And Jules said, I don't have any specifics.
[4:39:08]He's just not a good guy.
[4:39:10]Whatever that meant.
[4:39:12]Do you recall approximately what time frame
[4:39:15]the Kroll review was undertaken,
[4:39:17]or how was it described to you?
[4:39:20]Well, the way it was described to me
[4:39:22]is the board member asked Jules Kroll,
[4:39:27]he didn't tell me it was a board thing.
[4:39:31]And so it must have been,
[4:39:35]I don't know, about 19 or 20,
[4:39:37]because I know when I retired,
[4:39:40]and I think I know when COVID was
[4:39:43]and all those things that happened,
[4:39:46]but I had no knowledge of it.
[4:39:48]And I was quite frankly,
[4:39:49]it wasn't, it made no difference to me,
[4:39:52]but I was kind of surprised
[4:39:54]that somebody on the board would investigate,
[4:39:56]somebody and not tell me,
[4:39:58]or as the founder principle, whatever,
[4:40:03]they didn't, which is probably a good thing.
[4:40:07]So for the two law firm investigations I described
[4:40:12]and this separate Kroll inquiry,
[4:40:15]it sounds like you had no awareness of those
[4:40:19]when they occurred.
[4:40:20]Nothing.
[4:40:26]I would like to introduce Minority Exhibit J.
[4:41:05]So as you can see,
[4:41:07]this is an email from June of 2008,
[4:41:10]right around the time that Epstein pled guilty
[4:41:13]to soliciting a minor for prostitution.
[4:41:16]And you said to him, quote,
[4:41:18]Abigail told me the result.
[4:41:20]All I can say is I feel sorry.
[4:41:22]You violated your own number one rule.
[4:41:24]Always be careful.
[4:41:26]And Epstein replied, no excuse.
[4:41:29]So clearly either you knew or Epstein had said to you
[4:41:33]that his number one rule was to be careful.
[4:41:36]What in your recollection was he so careful about?
[4:41:41]About being honest and stealing from me, us,
[4:41:49]these criminal, terrible, horrible things that he did.
[4:41:54]And I don't know what prompted me
[4:41:56]because when I saw this,
[4:41:58]I think it was just giving him the finger.
[4:42:01]It's just something in the news, something.
[4:42:05]Maybe it was the fact that Abigail told me
[4:42:07]and I was cooking on it.
[4:42:10]And I just went, like,
[4:42:15]you sold yourself as a careful, honest fiduciary
[4:42:19]and you completely robbed us,
[4:42:22]did all these terrible things.
[4:42:26]It sounds like you, at least at the time,
[4:42:29]understood that Mr. Epstein,
[4:42:31]it sounds like Mr. Epstein would say
[4:42:33]that his number one rule was to be careful.
[4:42:35]Is that correct?
[4:42:37]Correct. Okay.
[4:42:38]What do you recall that being in the context of
[4:42:41]when Mr. Epstein would say that?
[4:42:46]Why was that his number one rule?
[4:42:47]I'll phrase it that way.
[4:42:49]Well, again, he alleged himself to be a fiduciary
[4:42:54]and I'm always careful about my clients.
[4:42:57]You know, I don't do risky investments.
[4:42:59]I don't do, I'm not looking for,
[4:43:01]I wasn't looking for cleverness.
[4:43:03]I was looking for accuracy, conservative.
[4:43:05]Like, you just run things really smoothly
[4:43:08]and Jeffrey would say, don't worry.
[4:43:10]You know, I'm always very careful.
[4:43:12]And that might have meant to be not abusive to my admin
[4:43:18]or to be prompt and accurate with tax returns.
[4:43:22]He's just careful because that's what you would expect.
[4:43:26]If my personal attorney would have said,
[4:43:29]don't worry, I'm always careful on your account,
[4:43:32]that would ring, you know, comfortably for me
[4:43:37]and complete program.
[4:43:42]And you touched on it, but in terms of how,
[4:43:46]what you can recall about how you felt at the time,
[4:43:49]the crimes, even the crime that he pled to
[4:43:52]was not insignificant, it involved a minor.
[4:43:56]That, do you recall, I mean,
[4:43:58]that would seem not to necessarily be the product
[4:44:01]of simply not being careful.
[4:44:03]So do you recall whether you felt anger, shock,
[4:44:06]or simply how could you have been so careless?
[4:44:13]I remember how I felt.
[4:44:16]Probably anger, that a person in a trust position
[4:44:21]could be so mistrusted, so crooked, so bad.
[4:44:30]As far as you can recall, when was the last time
[4:44:32]you spoke with Mr. Epstein?
[4:44:36]Well, it was probably sometime before I gave him a finger.
[4:44:38]So it probably was in 07 or 08,
[4:44:41]sometimes when he got in trouble.
[4:44:43]In my mind, he died.
[4:44:45]Well, definitely at this point,
[4:44:48]you two were in communication,
[4:44:49]so that's the middle of 2008.
[4:44:52]You asked someone who spoke to him.
[4:44:54]Sure, I'll clarify.
[4:44:55]Any form of electronic or verbal communication?
[4:45:00]I wouldn't remember that I did this.
[4:45:02]What I remember is when I found out
[4:45:04]how bad his sexual behavior was,
[4:45:07]and he was stealing from us, dead.
[4:45:11]If you recall, I think you had said
[4:45:13]that he initially framed the investigation to you
[4:45:17]as involving a massage and an overzealous police chief.
[4:45:23]At least that was what your counsels represented to DOJ.
[4:45:27]Do you recall that?
[4:45:31]I don't recall it.
[4:45:35]I think that's, I think,
[4:45:37]I don't know that he told Abigail that,
[4:45:40]and she told me.
[4:45:42]No, not what she told you.
[4:45:43]I don't know.
[4:45:44]I don't, how I know I don't know.
[4:45:48]Do you recall when you first became aware
[4:45:50]of his crimes involving minors?
[4:45:59]There is evidence that Mr. Epstein
[4:46:02]tried to get in touch with you in 2010 and 2011.
[4:46:07]We don't know whether that continued later.
[4:46:10]Do you have any recollection of having any form
[4:46:13]of contact with him after 2008?
[4:46:17]Nothing.
[4:46:19]I'm positive that I had no communication of any kind.
[4:46:25]I think you're keeping repeating it
[4:46:28]from my point of view, he died.
[4:46:31]I didn't want to even think about it.
[4:46:33]Yeah.
[4:46:38]Starting to wrap up,
[4:46:40]are there other individuals from Mr. Epstein's orbit
[4:46:45]at the time that you think we should talk to
[4:46:48]who might have an understanding of Mr. Epstein's crimes?
[4:47:05]What I'm thinking is that he referenced several people
[4:47:10]that I never met.
[4:47:14]Do I think they might have information?
[4:47:19]Possibly, but I don't know whether he made it up
[4:47:22]or he really did it.
[4:47:23]Do you recall some examples
[4:47:25]of people he would reference?
[4:47:27]Yeah, like he'd say, I was in Aspen last week,
[4:47:31]and I say, oh, what were you doing in Aspen?
[4:47:34]And he said, the family that owns Fidelity
[4:47:42]in Massachusetts, Johnson.
[4:47:44]He said, I worked for Abigail Johnson,
[4:47:47]and I was there talking to her
[4:47:49]about their family situation.
[4:47:54]But he could have been making that up,
[4:47:56]but at the time, I said, geez,
[4:47:57]he works for the Johnson family,
[4:47:59]they're pretty sophisticated.
[4:48:02]He would talk about the founders of Google,
[4:48:06]that they were friends and he'd visit them.
[4:48:07]He would talk about,
[4:48:11]you gotta come out to San Francisco,
[4:48:13]you should meet the Amazon guy.
[4:48:17]Bezos. Bezos.
[4:48:19]And I said, no, I'm not too busy and I'm interested
[4:48:22]and I don't do what he does.
[4:48:23]And he said, but he's really a smart guy,
[4:48:25]you should meet him.
[4:48:26]I said, if I'm ever in San Francisco,
[4:48:28]I'll look him up, I'm too busy.
[4:48:32]Trying to think if there's any others.
[4:48:36]The Google guys,
[4:48:40]and I never met them.
[4:48:41]I never met Abigail Johnson,
[4:48:45]but I know the name.
[4:48:57]That's all I can recall.
[4:48:59]But there were so many names dropped,
[4:49:03]that, and I'm not,
[4:49:05]I don't know.
[4:49:07]I didn't know he was much interested in celebrities,
[4:49:10]political celebrities or whatever.
[4:49:14]He was just like, I know so-and-so
[4:49:16]or I know so-and-so.
[4:49:18]I don't wanna mislead you and get a woman
[4:49:28]I don't know in trouble like Abigail Johnson.
[4:49:31]But up until the fact that I believed that he was a crook,
[4:49:36]I believed that he knew all these people.
[4:49:38]Do you recall whether he ever described anybody
[4:49:41]as his closest personal friends?
[4:49:43]Do you have an understanding
[4:49:44]of who his close friends would be?
[4:49:57]No, he would talk about friends that he had.
[4:50:03]He would say he told me how friendly he was
[4:50:08]with Ava's husband.
[4:50:10]And I was like, that's kind of funny
[4:50:12]that you're friends with your ex-fiancee,
[4:50:15]girlfriend's husband.
[4:50:22]It was stuff like that.
[4:50:24]Did I believe that he knew Clinton?
[4:50:26]No, I didn't believe it.
[4:50:29]But sometimes people say that.
[4:50:31]They knew five people in five places.
[4:50:35]Do you have any reflections as we close this conversation,
[4:50:38]whether it's on your relationship with Mr. Epstein
[4:50:42]or the pain and suffering that he and his accomplices
[4:50:45]inflicted on countless victims and survivors,
[4:50:47]largely with your resources?
[4:50:50]Any reflections of any kind on the entire topic?
[4:50:52]Objection assumes effect not in evidence.
[4:51:01]I believe he had a lot of resources beside mine.
[4:51:06]I think the only thing I said earlier
[4:51:08]was I think if you understand,
[4:51:14]I think he had, in hindsight,
[4:51:16]multiple personalities, incredibly smart,
[4:51:22]which I didn't really see.
[4:51:24]I mean, you can bullshit Nobel laureates about physics
[4:51:28]and university professors and physicians
[4:51:30]and all the people that I've read about.
[4:51:33]I mean, if it was a movie, no one would believe it.
[4:51:37]I mean, but what I read about him and the connections
[4:51:43]is so, and I think that the perspective to understand it
[4:51:47]would be to understand how intelligent he was
[4:51:58]in his, as a criminal, and all the things that he did.
[4:52:03]And I mean, I have trouble imagining
[4:52:07]how he could just do all the shit that he did,
[4:52:09]forget about work, in a 48-hour day
[4:52:14]because it was always so busy with my stuff
[4:52:17]and then you find out all these relationships.
[4:52:19]It's just mind-boggling.
[4:52:22]And some of it, even today,
[4:52:25]I can't believe that it's so,
[4:52:29]but some of the stuff I believe because I read about it.
[4:52:34]I mean, stuff I read yesterday, I said,
[4:52:36]I can't fucking, pardon me, I can't believe this.
[4:52:41]And I think to understand the criminal activities,
[4:52:45]all this stuff, it's like,
[4:52:49]I hope you guys are really good.
[4:52:50]And as I said earlier, I hope, you know,
[4:52:54]probably the dismay of my advisors
[4:52:58]to give you an accurate picture of how I am
[4:53:01]and how he was, how I perceived him.
[4:53:05]And I mean, diabolical isn't a big enough word.
[4:53:11]And I think I said earlier,
[4:53:12]Bernie Madoff was a boy scout compared to Jeffrey.
[4:53:16]I mean, if I just believe what I read in the press
[4:53:19]about people that he contacted,
[4:53:21]that he, university presidents, Gergen, my friend,
[4:53:26]I mean, it's just crazy.
[4:53:28]But he was beyond perfect or good
[4:53:34]at doing all the shit that he did.
[4:53:36]It's just, I think it's the rumor and innuendo
[4:53:41]that goes around, makes me very mad
[4:53:44]because I think I'm a very straight arrow
[4:53:46]and a very responsible person.
[4:53:53]I don't wanna give you a speech of my virtue,
[4:53:55]but I'm comfortable in my own skin.
[4:53:58]And I look up and say, it's so preposterous to me
[4:54:03]what he got away with so long with so many people
[4:54:06]that I can't imagine how a mind could do that
[4:54:09]and be robbing banks.
[4:54:11]It's crazy.
[4:54:15]Thank you.
[4:54:16]And then one last question.
[4:54:18]I think your counsel is represented to DOJ
[4:54:21]that your assets accounted for virtually
[4:54:23]all of Mr. Epstein's wealth.
[4:54:26]Sounds like you don't agree with that?
[4:54:29]I wouldn't know it.
[4:54:32]But I really don't know what his wealth is,
[4:54:34]but you know, island house, all that lifestyle,
[4:54:38]buying people's gifts.
[4:54:43]It would seem to me that having a good sense
[4:54:47]of how much money now he probably stole from us
[4:54:50]or more than that that we don't even know about yet
[4:54:53]because it was disguised.
[4:54:58]I think it's a vast, I don't know if you said it,
[4:55:01]to do all the things he did.
[4:55:03]And now I know he was, if you were a bank robber,
[4:55:06]bank robbers don't rob one bank.
[4:55:10]That was just, there's more there.
[4:55:13]And I can understand why people like myself
[4:55:16]who were robbed don't wanna be mentioned
[4:55:20]because they don't wanna talk about it.
[4:55:22]They don't wanna, you know, appear naive or dumb.
[4:55:28]I mean, when I look in the mirror,
[4:55:30]I know I see an honest person,
[4:55:32]but in this I was completely blind.
[4:55:36]Thank you, you can go off the record.
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