[0:00]light to let you know that it works today's date is Thursday July 24th this
[0:10]will be a recording of a proffer agreement of Delaine Maxwell from the
[0:18]Deputy Attorney General DOJ and the time is currently 9 16 Maxwell and
[0:27]Council are arriving to the US Attorney's Office and we will commence
[0:31]the proffer shortly. Good morning my name is assistant special agent in charge
[0:43]Spencer Horn of FBI New York today we're doing a proffer of Ms. Maxwell the date
[0:50]is July 24th and the time is 10 12 a.m. this interview is being recorded and my
[1:05]name is Todd Blanch I'm the Deputy Attorney General and before we start formally asking
[1:11]questions of Ms. Maxwell I'm gonna put on the record everybody that's in this
[1:17]room in addition to me.
[1:22]Diego Pastana associate deputy attorney general and then you heard from
[1:26]special agent in charge Horn Mark Beard from the United States Marshal
[1:31]Services here as well and then David yes this is David Oscar Marcus and I'm
[1:36]counsel for Delaine Maxwell. My name is Thea Sapien and I'm counsel for Delaine Maxwell.
[1:45]My name is Melissa Madrigal and I'm counsel for Delaine Maxwell.
[1:50]Go ahead. And I'm Delaine Maxwell. Good morning Ms. Maxwell how are you? Good morning Mr. Blanch.
[1:59]Okay so before we started recording we've met for a few minutes I
[2:04]introduced myself and we chatted and now I told you that we were going on
[2:07]the record and before we start asking questions I know that you've been
[2:12]given by your lawyer a copy of what's called a proffer agreement and I just
[2:19]want to spend two minutes making sure that you understand what governs
[2:25]our conversation today. The most important part of this agreement is
[2:29]that this isn't a cooperation agreement meaning that by you meeting with us
[2:34]today we're really just meeting. I'm not promising to do anything. I'm not
[2:39]promising to ask Judge Nathan or any of the judges that's been assigned to
[2:43]your case to do anything. We're just talking and so that's the most
[2:47]important important part of this agreement. However almost as important
[2:54]is the fact that what this agreement does for you is it gives you
[2:58]protection. So what it means is that the government cannot use what you say
[3:02]today against you with some exceptions which we'll talk about in a minute
[3:07]but whatever you talk about today you have what's called immunity so that
[3:12]means that the words that you say today we cannot use against you in a
[3:16]case in chief if we were ever to bring one. Okay. Thank you. There's exceptions to
[3:21]that. The most meaningful one of which is that if you say something today
[3:25]that's not true that's a lie. We can bring a prosecution against you for
[3:29]what's called false statements. So I'm a federal officer. I have several
[3:36]officers here. The FBI is here and if if you lie to someone that's a like
[3:41]me or like Special Agent Horn it's a crime. So you have to be truthful.
[3:45]The other exception to this that doesn't necessarily apply directly to
[3:50]you but if there ever was a retrial in your case or if there ever was a
[3:55]criminal case a future criminal case against you and your lawyer or you said
[4:02]something different or took a position that's different than what you say
[4:08]today we can then cross examine you or witness based upon what you say
[4:14]today. So it's a little bit nuanced meaning I can't use what you say
[4:18]in our case in chief. However if you were to testify or if your lawyer called a
[4:24]witness to testify and they said something that's totally different than
[4:29]what you say today we could then cross examine you or the witness and say
[4:33]hey do you remember when we met with Ms. Maxwell back in
[4:37]July of 2025 she told us and then say what she said. Okay. Okay. Other than
[4:45]I know you didn't have a lot of time this morning to meet with with with
[4:50]Mr. Marcus but did you have a chance to go over this briefly with him? I did.
[4:54]Okay. All right so I've already signed it as has Special Agent Horn and Mr.
[5:00]Marcus signed it as well. So you got a pen please sign it right where it
[5:03]says clients. Yep. And I will provide a copy of this to to your lawyer so
[5:09]you guys have it. Okay. Thank you. So Ms. Maxwell about a week and a half ago
[5:19]or two weeks ago. You see the light blinking on that? On the sonar. Yeah there we see. Okay we're just
[5:32]confirming that it works and it does. Ms. Maxwell I guess about a week and
[5:36]a half or two weeks ago Mr. Marcus reached out to me and said that that
[5:41]you wanted to speak with somebody from the government about not only your case
[5:47]but about everything that's been in the media and that's been publicized about
[5:53]Mr. Epstein in your case. That is true and I did speak to him and I did ask him if he did tell him that I was very keen to talk to anyone because no one from the government at any time ever since the inception of the case, so dating back to the early two councillors, has ever spoken to me and indeed I believe ever reached out to me and I did speak to him.
[6:23]I believe that, or I understand I should say rather, that my attorneys at the time did tell the government that I wanted to speak to them because I was very keen to meet with anyone so that I could tell or have them ask me any question.
[6:53]I never had any problem to speak to anybody and I offered myself and I kept asking if they would meet with me so that I could speak to them for whatever reason that was not happening.
[7:09]I have questions that I want to ask you but I'm not, if there's a question that I'm not asking that you think should be asked I invite you to volunteer.
[7:17]Same thing goes to your lawyer. Just to start a little bit very briefly, can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein, I know that goes back a while, and just very generally talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein from the time you met him all the way up until his death.
[7:24]I met Mr. Epstein in 1991. I was a lawyer and I was a lawyer and I was a lawyer and I was a lawyer and I was a lawyer.
[7:57]I've never heard of him or met him before and no one in my family has ever either. My father never knew him and I'll explain why that is the case.
[8:09]Where did you meet him?
[8:11]I had a girlfriend who, I moved to America briefly in 1990. I had been running my own company up until that time which was a company called Maxwell's Corporate Gifts.
[8:42]I had also been working for my father at the time. I've had multiple jobs with him. I was in 1990, I was working with a new company of his, a newspaper that he was launching called The European.
[9:00]I was in charge of launching a magazine to go with The European.
[9:11]I was travelling at that time from England to America because my father was looking to, well, he'd also bought McMillan the publishing house and he had purchased the New York Daily News.
[9:18]It's true to say that my father always wanted me to come back full-time and work for him but that's a much longer story. I don't think we need to go into it this time.
[9:25]But I was always working with him. There was no escaping, as it were, to work for him.
[9:31]In 1990 I had come over to New York to help look at some of that. He was having a lot of trouble with the
[9:45]I was always working with him, although there was no escaping, as it were, to work for him.
[9:50]So in 1990, I had come over to New York to help look at some of that.
[9:59]He was having some advertising issues with the New York Daily News, and in fact, I met...
[10:06]I may have met Donald Trump at that time because my father was friendly with him
[10:12]and liked him very much. And I think it should be said that he also very much liked
[10:20]Ivana because she was also from Czechoslovakia, where my dad was from.
[10:24]So I don't remember if I did meet him or not in 1990 with my dad, but I knew that
[10:30]that's how I knew about Mr. Trump. And this was before you met Mr. Epstein?
[10:36]This was before I met Mr. Epstein, yes. So I was already going backwards and
[10:41]America. And in April of 1991, I came to New York, but I can't remember for what reason,
[10:54]what business reason, but there was a business, something to do with my dad at that time.
[10:58]And a girlfriend of mine, who is an American, told me, I'd broken up with my long...
[11:08]I'd been engaged, getting the very long-term boyfriend and we'd broken up.
[11:14]So I got, you know, as your girlfriends do, I've got a guy for you to meet,
[11:18]and I was like, who is it? And she goes, he's been dating my sister,
[11:22]you'll love him, he's looking for a wife. I'm edging towards 30, I don't need to tell
[11:27]you guys, that's a very important moment for girls to like think about important things.
[11:32]I sure have been happy to meet him. And so sometime in 1991, we're in 1991,
[11:41]I met him at his offices in... And I think the most memorable thing I can think about that is
[11:53]he was wearing a tie, which he didn't often do, he had a giant tomato ketchup stain on it.
[11:59]So I was like, wow, okay. And that was how we met.
[12:03]Was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally, or were you there for
[12:12]work-related reasons? I knew nothing about him.
[12:15]I keep just inviting me to come and have tea, and I was like, tea, that's English,
[12:21]okay. But what was unusual was in his offices, so I went to his offices and we met.
[12:26]And that kind of thing, very engaging, and that was that.
[12:31]So, okay, so that's how you meet him. And again, I don't want to spend a lot of time
[12:39]on this particular issue, but what happened with your relationship over the years from
[12:45]the time you meet him in 1991 up until the time he passed away? Just give the highlights.
[12:51]Okay, so I was looking for real estate for my dad to buy some, and Epstein told me that he
[13:00]was also looking to move from his apartment, and would I help him? And I said, sure,
[13:06]I'm looking already so I could look for him. So that's how it started.
[13:10]And then in 1991, my father passed away, and I returned to New York after that,
[13:15]originally to come back and help with the family businesses, which was
[13:21]limited. And then the debacle of my father's passing hit the family, and
[13:33]we lost all our businesses. And my family thought that it would be best if I stayed
[13:37]in America because of the intensity of the press and the drama surrounding my father's
[13:45]death in England. So I stayed, and Epstein said, well, you can keep helping me, help me find
[13:53]a house and decorate the house. It gave me something to do. Were you in a romantic
[14:00]relationship with him at this point, or just friends? Just friends. And while we're just,
[14:06]with respect to your father, there have been multiple questions about whether
[14:13]he worked for any intelligence agency. Do you have any knowledge about that?
[14:20]I think most certainly my father had a background in intelligence because he was,
[14:27]I believe he did in the Second World War, he was a British intelligence officer.
[14:34]I think that my sort of belief is that once you've been an intelligence officer,
[14:38]you're kind of, always it doesn't mean that you're formally employed.
[14:41]So I don't think my dad in any formal sense was, you know,
[14:48]employed by any agency. But when you are a very significant businessman and politician,
[14:58]as my father was, you meet with people all the time and you, I guess, trade business
[15:07]ideas. I think we fall under that definition. That's how I would think it now. He certainly,
[15:13]I have no formal knowledge of anything specifically that he did in that thing,
[15:18]but if you're asking me if I believe that he did help people, the answer would be yes, I do.
[15:24]Did your father and Mr. Epstein have a business relationship over the years? I know
[15:29]we're maybe jumping around a little bit. They never met. As far as you know,
[15:33]they never even met. No, I know they never met. Well, how do you know they never met?
[15:39]Just categorically know they never met. Well, because after, in 1991, before my father died,
[15:48]he asked me if I'd met anybody interesting or whatever, you know, because I was still
[15:54]trying not to be sucked back into the family business. And I told him that I had met Mr.
[15:59]Epstein, and the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Epstein because I believed at that time
[16:04]that Epstein worked for Best Earns, and Best Earns was one of our banks. And I knew that
[16:10]my father was friendly with both Gina Cain and with Ace Greenberg. So my dad, Cain was
[16:17]actually in New York, I think. I don't think I had this conversation on the phone that I
[16:23]honestly was talking 30 years ago, so I'm not sure. But maybe I told him this verbatim
[16:31]because I haven't. I know that what my dad did, whether I saw it or whether he did it and
[16:36]told me later, that I don't remember, but he called both Jimmy Cain and Ace Greenberg to
[16:44]ask if what sort of guy he was and was he even allowed to.
[16:53]So they never met, but they knew some of the same people, it sounds like,
[17:00]or certainly the Best Earns connection was something that you knew that they had.
[17:05]No, well, he never had a connection with Epstein. He had a connection with the bank.
[17:09]I mean Epstein, I'd never heard of him or knew of him before, and I certainly, if my dad had
[17:15]known him, right, when I said this was who he was, he didn't know who he was. So he rang Ace
[17:20]and he rang Jimmy to ask if it was okay that I even knew him. And I just want to explain
[17:27]briefly why my father would even do such a thing. I've had some interesting things that
[17:50]have happened in my life, and one of them was to be found on an IRA kidnapper, a murderist.
[18:00]And so after that happened, well there were other
[18:07]related, I'm not going to bore you with all the horrible things in that vein, but if
[18:12]you want the details, of course, if I can. But after that happened, my father wanted to
[18:22]put a lot of protection on Epstein, and I declined on the grounds that that was a very
[18:29]life-restricting event. You're all in law enforcement, I know you understand this.
[18:35]And so he had told me that I would be taking my life in my own hands and whatever. And so I
[18:46]think after that event, and several others where I had seen crazy things that one has,
[18:52]he was always quite protective of people. And so if I met somebody, he would try and verify
[18:58]that they weren't going to do anything hideous. And so in case you thought it was weird that he
[19:05]was called Jimmy and Ace, you may think it is, but from my perspective, he was just because
[19:14]he was concerned. I was in America alone, and he had an opportunity to verify who this person
[19:20]was. And so I don't know if I was in the room with him, I don't recall. But I know that
[19:24]at some point, my father told me, he's fine, you can see it, he's safe.
[19:32]So we might come back and touch a little bit more on that at some point, but
[19:37]I went down a rabbit hole for a minute. No, that's helpful, thank you. So you're now
[19:44]in the 90s and you're friends with Mr. Epstein, decorating the house or the apartment.
[19:52]What happened with your relationship again? I know we're talking about a 35-year time period
[19:57]or whatever, but to the extent you can kind of at a very high level talk about it.
[20:02]I think just full disclosure is the best way to go at this point. So in 1992,
[20:10]I slept with him one time, and I was like, oh, that's it, we're going to be dating,
[20:15]because that's how I thought. And I kind of thought of myself in that moment, like,
[20:21]because I thought if you slept with someone that you were then dating them, that's the world I
[20:29]came from. But that really was, well, that's how I thought. But we didn't sleep together
[20:35]again for, I don't know, a really significant period of time. Years or?
[20:41]Right. I don't know if it was a year. That feels long, but maybe
[20:51]nine months, I mean, a long time. I just want to go back. So I had found
[20:59]a house for him to rent in New York, because he had asked me. I'd been looking
[21:03]for one from my father, and I found one, which was a former Iranian embassy, I think it
[21:09]belonged to the Iranians, or the Iraqis. And I didn't know that he had any money,
[21:18]but even it was, I wanted to say it was 12,000 dollars a month, which to me seemed like
[21:23]culture. And I said to myself, I found this house, but I don't think you can afford it.
[21:32]And that house, it was a State Department house, because I think it was under
[21:36]sequestration, or whatever it was. And I put it back together with a set of rules
[21:41]you couldn't pay if you had to go back, and gave it back to the country. So
[21:48]he had this house, and I had moved into a 10 foot by 10 foot apartment, because
[21:56]all of our stuff had been either lost, or frozen, or whatever. So he became a
[22:04]misnomer by black and green, because I suspect everything was, it felt very similar to his
[22:11]mother, if that makes sense. Anyway, so, but I had no key to his house, I had no
[22:18]free access to his house, and then the entire time that he lived there, which was I believe
[22:23]until the beginning of 1996, I never slept a single night in that house, ever.
[22:31]So you said a minute ago that you had slept with him on one occasion, and at the time
[22:41]you remember thinking, you know, that this meant you were in a relationship, but then
[22:44]it didn't, you really were not in that type of relationship. Did that change
[22:49]between 91 and 92 or whatever, and years forward?
[22:54]Um, so I did travel with him, so I would go to his house in Palm Beach, he only had
[23:02]that house actually open. No, that's not true. He had the house in Palm Beach, and he had a
[23:08]house in Ohio. In where? Ohio. Okay. And he had the house in Ohio because of
[23:15]his business relationship with Mr. Wexner. And he had a, and I had to go and decorate
[23:23]and put that house together. When we traveled together, we stayed in the same bed, but
[23:32]not in the same room. But I didn't. Go ahead, it's okay. Talk. So you stayed,
[23:42]so when you would travel with him to his house in Palm Beach, Ohio, or even just
[23:47]traveling, if it was just traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed,
[23:55]so sleep in the same bed with him? Yeah. Okay. Ed's been told me that he had a
[24:06]heart condition. A what? Heart condition. Heart condition, okay. Which meant that he
[24:13]didn't have intercourse or anything, which suited me kind of, because I actually do
[24:21]have a medical condition, which proves me having a lot of intercourse. So what was
[24:33]your understanding of his heart condition and why that prevented him from having
[24:38]intercourse regularly? I mean, he liked other forms of sexual activities. Well,
[24:55]let's come back. We're going to obviously spend some time, a lot of time on
[25:01]the actual conduct he was accused of, so we'll come back to that. So pick up where you
[25:08]were talking about you traveling around with him. He rented the New York,
[25:15]a former Iranian house, until around 96. That time, I believe you said that he was
[25:24]basically your life, like you were with him pretty regularly. Well, no. So I never was
[25:30]with him. That is one of those misnomerings. At the beginning, I did see more of him,
[25:35]but I worked in his office, so I would go to the office and I would see him,
[25:39]and I would count in my head when I would see him, I would count that I would,
[25:43]that would be a day that I would see him. But I never ever stayed with him. I believe
[25:50]certainly until 93 or 94, what I didn't know was that I think he was still with his actual
[25:57]brother, who was Eva Anderson, who became Eva Dubey. They had been together, my understanding,
[26:07]I think about 10 years. I'm not sure, but that's what I think, 10 years. And I had
[26:14]understood from my girlfriend initially that they weren't together, and Epsi himself had
[26:20]told me that they were not together, but I don't think that was true. So they were still together
[26:27]up until, I think, 94, when at some point, in that period, when Eva met Glenn Dubey,
[26:33]and they got married, I think in 94. I don't remember when they got married, but her,
[26:41]she was his best friend, and he told me that he always wished that he had married her,
[26:49]and had a child with her. And I know that they, she was family for his whole life,
[26:56]and I think even, I'm not sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is true or not,
[27:00]when he came back from Paris and you arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the plane.
[27:07]Now I think that either I read it in the discovery that I received, or I saw it somewhere,
[27:14]but even if she wasn't on the plane, there must have been some email communication where
[27:18]she was in Paris at the same time and going to fly back. One or the other, I don't know which
[27:22]one is the correct version of that, but so they were still obviously very close, and remained
[27:29]throughout the entire flight. She was, saw her love, and so I also know now, which I didn't
[27:37]know at the time, was that she saw lots of other women, and I know that now because I can
[27:44]see it from the flight notes, and I know it now because I can see from the emails.
[27:52]So you know from the case? Yes. What happened? Yes, I didn't know. Contemporaneity, I absolutely
[27:58]didn't know. So okay, so just, and we're going to spend time on everything you're talking
[28:03]about, but just to kind of close out a big picture of your relationship. So we're now in
[28:08]the late 90s. Continue on with, again, staying high level to the extent you can about your
[28:16]relationship with him. So after, so my responsibilities increased with each acquisition that he
[28:26]put, and each new project. So I believe the first thing that he purchased after was the
[28:38]ranch in New Mexico. And so what he had tasked me with, I think that was purchased in
[28:46]1994, so he had tasked me, one of the things that we did was visit,
[28:52]in my mind I say every state, but it wouldn't have been every state, but many states,
[28:56]to go look at real estate, and so I know we went to Montana, I know we went to Utah,
[29:02]and it was, it was, to go look at real estate was fun, to be honest. And then I arranged for us
[29:08]to go to New Mexico, and he just loved New Mexico. And then, I don't remember how
[29:16]the ranch happened, I don't remember that, now it's lost. And then he ended up buying
[29:20]the ranch, and I think, Contemporaneity came from, well, the king who may have been the
[29:25]governor, I bought the ranch, and then I had to deal with that, and dealing with that was
[29:33]extensive. I mean, the way that I thought of myself, or the way that I think is the best
[29:38]way to explain how I view my role was as a general manager, because each property to me
[29:45]was like a hotel. So the ranch was very challenging, because not only that, but it
[29:51]had BLM land, so to maintain your BLM, you had to have capital. And I love animals, and so
[30:00]the first thing are horses, and so I wanted it, you're going to have a ranch, unlike
[30:06]authenticity, so I don't think you should have a ranch if you're not going to have the things
[30:11]that make it special. So were you, were you paid by him along the way during this time?
[30:19]I became salaried at some point. My memory is that I got paid 25,000 a year to begin
[30:27]with. That's my memory, I may be wrong. And then with each, as it became more obvious,
[30:34]because I kept thinking I was going to the home thing. And, but it...
[30:41]Did you, and financially, you were not relying on him, the 25,000 or whatever amount you
[30:47]were paid, were you relying on that money to live, and his generosity to live, or did you
[30:53]have your own money? And again, I want to just make sure we're talking about keeping
[31:00]it between like the late 90s, you know, maybe I guess into a little of the 2000s.
[31:04]I just want to hit something on the head right now. There's a tremendous amount of
[31:08]reporting that said that I had a trust fund. Thank you. A trust fund? I have never had a
[31:13]trust at any time. So how did you live? Did you live with, with, I mean, 25,000s on
[31:19]a night to live on? No. So I had during this period of time the secrets, the serious
[31:25]boards board had come to see me in relation to my father's passing, and to establish
[31:31]whether I had been involved in any way with his business or with any shenanigans. I've
[31:41]told the story many times, so I don't know if it's now somewhat hip-hop-able, but I'll
[31:44]tell you what my memory is. I received a letter from them that said you can't
[31:49]go about my business, and my memory may be hip-hop-able. There was a PS, I used
[31:55]to know what it's custom. I had nothing. I was never involved in any of his
[32:00]business, whatever, so I was free. Were you, so, but you're, you know, obviously
[32:07]your father and your family had a lot of businesses. Is it because the money,
[32:14]whatever money or whatever equity was in the businesses just stayed with your other family
[32:20]members? No, there was no money. So my father was never attached to me. He was born a
[32:29]peasant, a real one, dirt floor, no shoes, no clothes, some clothes but not, you know,
[32:38]sorry, I don't mean to say, nothing. And he never, he was never into that. I mean,
[32:46]there were things that he had his extravagances, he loved his boat and his
[32:50]clean, so obviously you need money for that, but there was no, nothing else.
[32:54]And there was not a single penny that came to any of us, at any time, ever.
[33:00]Okay, so when you're talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the 90s,
[33:08]you're not, you're very different financially, you're very different financially
[33:13]positioned than he is, meaning he's giving you money, he's paying for your, when you
[33:17]fly he, I assume, pays for your flights? Yes. Okay, so you, I interrupted you when
[33:26]you were saying how you were functioning as general manager, you helped with the
[33:28]New Mexico ranch. So did your role with him continue like that for many years or for how
[33:37]long? So I continued, in 2000, by 1999 our relationship had founded. Why? Well,
[33:53]two reasons. We were never sleeping together again, so we stopped having sexual
[33:57]relations in 1999. Not full sex, sorry, to be clear. It didn't mean that we
[34:06]didn't still share a bedroom or something. He had another girlfriend. He had what? Other
[34:13]girlfriends. I definitively knew that it was over after 9-11 actually, because we were both
[34:24]in New York. And it was a scary time if you were in New York. You didn't know,
[34:38]I didn't know, nobody knew what was going on. And he was in Sunday First Street and I was
[34:43]in 65th Street, my house. And he wouldn't see me at all. I saw his mum, who I very
[34:57]close to, who was in this little, Lennox Health, starting to look after her. And
[35:02]then I knew, as anyone did at that time, he was not going to be there, because
[35:07]someone had known 11-year-old Americans would be there. So to me that was the
[35:11]line in the second. And he had another English girlfriend actually, from 2000.
[35:20]Are you still being paid by him at this point? Yes. Okay, so go ahead. So
[35:31]at that point when you say you realize kind of-
[35:33]Well, I'm talking about the, I had had, there was a, I wanted to get married
[35:40]and have children. And Epstein had encouraged me to believe that that would, I don't know
[35:50]about them, certainly by the late 90s I knew the marriage part was never going
[35:54]to happen. I had believed that maybe in 96, 97, 98 maybe, but then I realized
[36:00]that it wasn't that. But I did think that you might have a child, which is
[36:04]what I had believed. And I realized- Okay, so what happens between 2001 and then 2019,
[36:17]what's your relationship with him? Give or take 2001. So we stopped having
[36:23]physicality. I mean that doesn't mean we weren't friends. I certainly did stay sometimes in his
[36:28]room. I mean, mental benefits, if you will, just not sex. Sorry. I started dating.
[36:42]And I met someone that I found very much in love with in 2002. His name was Ted Waite.
[36:52]Ted Waite, whom you may know as the founder of Navel computers. And we had an amazing
[37:02]relationship that ended in, went on until 2010, I think. And I was with Ted from that time.
[37:11]Did you meet him through Mr. Epstein? No. Well, indirectly. I suppose you could
[37:18]know. They'd never met. I was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't- I was with
[37:30]President Clinton. President Clinton was my friend, not Epstein's friend. And Epstein
[37:37]had flown here. And I was at dinner and Ted came to the dinner. So I guess indirectly
[37:43]through Mr. Epstein, because it was his plane, but I'd been there anyway without him.
[37:48]Was Epstein on the plane when you guys flew? On that trip, yes. Well, yes.
[37:58]So when you say- the dinner was what? Okay. Okay. And so you had flown over with- so who
[38:08]was on the plane for that trip? I don't mean everybody. You said Mr. Epstein was on the
[38:12]plane? Yes. You were on the plane? Yes. Who else? That you can remember. I'm not,
[38:18]you know, you only know what you remember. Was President Clinton on the plane? Clinton.
[38:24]He would have had his guy, Doug Vance. Maybe Jason Cooper.
[38:34]And you- and so why- so how did you meet- so why did you say that's when you met him and
[38:42]you met him through Clinton? Well, it was a- I don't think Ted would have been there
[38:46]had it not been a- it was a President Clinton dinner and Ted came with President Clinton,
[38:51]not to do with Mr. Epstein. Does that make sense? Yes. That's why I say that.
[38:57]Okay. So you're- so in the time that you're dating, that you're with him to 2009,
[39:04]are you still working for Mr. Epstein during that time? So his- so it would be true to
[39:10]say that Geoffrey tried very hard, Mr. Epstein tried very hard to keep me to work for him because
[39:18]I mean this is a complex operation. I'm not talking about anything
[39:22]untoward. Just the sheer size of the projects and thinking about construction projects,
[39:26]the houses, the staff. It's a really significant job and I ran all the properties,
[39:37]the staff in the property, the management of the properties that- and all construction.
[39:43]And we're talking tens of millions of dollars that I ended up doing. I can't remember what
[39:49]the budget was, construction on any given year. It's gone. But it was- these are very
[39:54]significant projects and so that was what I did and I managed the budgets. Well not-
[40:01]I didn't manage the budgets. I oversaw the budgets. I would just make sure that
[40:05]if you said you bought an air conditioning plant, I saw an air conditioning plant and I could
[40:12]call the island manager, did you receive the carrier, whatever, you know. When did
[40:22]Mr. Epstein purchase the island? I want to say 1996 or 1997, something like that. Okay,
[40:29]so we're going to come back and spend more time on the money with respect to Mr. Epstein
[40:35]and his wealth, but just so we can finish this. So in 2009, you end your relationship with Ted?
[40:43]Yes, in 2010. I can't remember if it was 2010. So in that time period, what happens next
[40:49]as far as your relationship with Mr. Epstein? I don't have one with him. You don't have one
[40:53]with him like- you don't see him or it's just a different relationship? I did see- or maybe
[41:00]saw him once or twice, maybe even three times. I certainly went to his house once for sure,
[41:07]maybe twice, but I was not seeing him. The only time that I was in touch with him was when the
[41:18]things happened, like things happening in the press that affected me or when the CVRA case
[41:24]was filed and there was all that rubbish that went out because I needed information
[41:28]because I didn't know- I didn't know anything about what was happening and I needed his help.
[41:35]A, to understand- I don't mean his help, I meant to have answers so that I had an ability to
[41:46]defend myself. That's what I'm looking at. I'm not talking- So when does that relationship
[41:51]change? So you're working- you talked about when the physical relationship stopped
[41:57]and then you're still working for him or with him managing his properties and being serving
[42:02]as like a general manager. You then start your own relationship with another individual
[42:06]from with Ted from 2003 till 2009 or 10. At what point in that whole period is there like
[42:13]more of a break where you're no longer acting as his general manager? So I wanted to have
[42:18]a full break when I started dating Ted and he was clever. I suppose it would be true to say
[42:28]that I sort of viewed the steps in that point as sort of family, if you will,
[42:32]like someone I could rely on and I should have had more confidence in myself. I can see that
[42:40]now but at the time given everything that had happened in my life I thought that it was-
[42:46]and I saw how he was with other people like Eva who seemed to be very comfortable saying that.
[42:52]I thought this would be- and he always said I was like family so he worked hard to maintain
[43:00]a relationship with me. He was generous with me. He never used the plane which was very
[43:07]generous. He would check in with my mum. He thinks that we were meaningful to me in that
[43:18]time. And then it may still not have worked but that his mother, Paula, had been in a
[43:28]very serious car crash and she had become sort of like a surrogate mother to me
[43:37]sort of because my mum wasn't there. I could look after her the way that I would have liked
[43:52]to look after my own mum. So I became very close to his mother and she had been in a car
[43:59]crash and in 2004 I believe, it may have been five, I don't recall exactly, she took her health
[44:10]a serious decline and Epstein called me and asked me if I could look after her. By looking
[44:20]after her that meant organising her doctors, making sure she had new clothes, making sure
[44:29]her house was clean. Where was she? She lived in a retirement establishment outside of Palm
[44:38]Beach, it's West Palm. I was going to say something like the Golden Girls but it's not
[44:45]called that. I just don't remember what it's called. But it was an old age, it was a
[44:50]retirement home if you will. Todd, I don't know, we've been going for maybe about an hour
[44:54]now, do you think? Is this a good time? Yeah, so we'll take a break. All right so we're
[45:00]going to take a break. The time is 10.56. We're continuing the Crocker interview
[45:13]with Miss Maxwell. The time is 11.07 a.m. on Thursday, July 24th. All right, so
[45:22]just picking up where we just stopped, so you have basically a break, well not a break,
[45:28]that's the wrong word, but your relationship with Mr. Maxwell, professional and other
[45:33]changes in 2003-04? Yeah, I mean over the time that I stay with Ted, the more time I'm with Ted,
[45:41]the more distance I have with him. And then when the arrest, well let's go back,
[45:49]when he, whatever happened in 2005 and he became arrested in 2000. So when he's
[45:56]charged and arrested in what we'll call the Florida investigations,
[46:00]that's what you're talking about. I am. Okay, go ahead. So I had, I was not in,
[46:09]well. Well, were you part of that investigation? Absolutely not. Did law enforcement ever talk to
[46:13]you as far as that? No. Did you, like the feds never talked to you, the FBI never talked
[46:18]to you? No. I never even received a phone call. Did you, so you didn't receive a subpoena?
[46:23]No. Did the state law enforcement ever reach out to you? No. As far as you know,
[46:31]did the government, either state or federal, subpoena your bank records or subpoena anything
[46:38]from your financial life during that time? Not as far as I'm aware. Now if they did,
[46:43]I don't know it and I have no idea about that. To be honest, but I'm not aware of it and I
[46:48]would say no, but maybe you guys do things that I don't know. So how did, how did you learn of
[46:55]that case when Mr. Epstein was arrested or did you know that something was happening before then?
[47:00]First thing I knew was he had told me he was deciding to redecorate the house in Palm Beach.
[47:11]Didn't surprise me. It was like a rolling situation. But by that time, are you doing,
[47:15]are you, like he tells you because he wants your help or had your relationship
[47:19]changed by this time where you were no longer kind of acting as his general manager?
[47:23]No, I was, I was still around. I wasn't gone. I was with Ted. I was traveling. I wasn't daily.
[47:34]If you'd asked me where he was in any given time, I'm not sure I would have known then.
[47:39]I mean, it was, I felt like, I suppose the relationship moved into sort of like a
[47:48]long-term friend, family, you know, like, like I felt he had with Eva, if I'm honest.
[47:54]Yeah. Okay. So, so he says to you, he's going to redecorate the Palm Beach house?
[47:58]He asked me specifically which decorator he thinks he should use because I had a lot of
[48:04]contacts with decorators and he was not very good with people. He was useless at
[48:14]maintaining relationships with people who worked for him. I'm not. So anyways, I recommended,
[48:27]I think I recommended, I can't be 100% sure because it's a long time,
[48:30]but I think I recommended Mark Zeff at that time.
[48:33]Who? Mark Zeff.
[48:34]Okay. I believe. And I don't know why. I don't remember. That's all lost to time.
[48:41]But anyway, at some point I think his mother had died now. I can't remember the timing of
[48:49]all of that either. Okay. But I ended up in Palm Beach and he had asked me to come and look
[48:56]at the swatches or whatever he was doing because they had laid it all out over the house
[49:00]and various things and I think he'd asked for my opinion. That's my memory of this.
[49:05]It may also be that Ted and I were going to Palm Beach because Ted had a golf match or
[49:09]something. There was a reason I was in Palm Beach. It wasn't so leaf. Maybe that's not
[49:14]true either. I don't know. Okay. Sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was there.
[49:20]I don't know if that's part of that time or not or Ted went there and left me. I don't
[49:23]know. Something. Anyway, I was there. No, that's not allowed either. No.
[49:31]Anyway, at some point in that time I saw all the swatches. At some point in 2005,
[49:37]I think that was. And then I believe, I don't remember. I think I got a phone call actually.
[49:44]I wasn't in Palm Beach. I think I got a phone call that there was police at his house or
[49:51]something. Would you have gotten a phone call from him or do you think you were just told
[49:55]by somebody that knew that it had happened or don't you remember? Definitely not him.
[50:00]I think it would have been the house. So when that happens, whenever it was,
[50:04]that's kind of the first time you know that Ms. Repstein is being investigated for.
[50:10]I didn't even know. I didn't even understand. Okay. I didn't have a context for that. It was
[50:16]like I didn't even know. I didn't know. Okay. I'm not sure even what I thought.
[50:23]I was like, that's weird. After you find out about
[50:26]what happens with your relationship. I asked him. I asked him what was going on
[50:30]and he said, not to worry. Nothing. Nothing. Don't worry about it. And then it went quiet.
[50:39]I didn't, he didn't say, he didn't share. I wasn't part of it at all. I was off with Ted
[50:45]and I really just. But did he tell you, well, why don't we come back to more specifics
[50:51]around that time period in a few minutes? I want to just finish this opening part. So
[50:56]that case goes on. Ultimately it ends. What was your relationship like with him during that case
[51:08]when he goes, you know. He told me, he said, listen, I'm going to jail. And he goes,
[51:17]I'd like you to stay on board to manage the properties, the animals, this and that, and
[51:24]just stay put. And I'll continue to pay you in case there's any emergency. I don't trust anyone.
[51:29]And I was like, okay. Well, and you said continue to pay you had he had he
[51:35]he'd never stopped paying me. He never said. So even when your relationship changes, you're
[51:38]getting, does the amount increase from the 25,000 or so a year in the beginning? Like,
[51:43]how much are you getting paid yearly? I think it ended at the time. Well,
[51:47]we had different payment structures and I'm happy to explain how that works. But I think
[51:50]salary wise, if I'm right, it ended at around a quarter of a million a year.
[51:55]How much? Quarter of a million, 250,000.
[51:57]And when and when did it end? When was that that it stopped? 2008 or nine.
[52:05]So nine. When did he come out of jail? Whenever he came out of jail.
[52:09]Okay. So and over the years, it increased from what you said was you thought about 25,000
[52:16]to 250,000. That's between like 90, early 90s until 2009 or 10, whatever he stopped.
[52:23]Is that right? Yes.
[52:24]And how were you paid? W-2.
[52:27]W-2 from which from what company? He just moved me around over to this company there.
[52:36]I didn't care. And I didn't care and I didn't think I didn't understand any
[52:40]rhyme or reason. It doesn't matter. You know, whatever.
[52:43]Okay. So when he's going to go to jail, he says, can you stay around and manage everything?
[52:48]Yeah. And do you do that?
[52:50]I do. Okay. And then we'll come back to that.
[52:53]We'll not manage everything now. I mean, there are other people at this point. My
[52:56]specific role then was very, very diminished. I reviewed the bill structure that came from
[53:02]the constructions that was storming the island and wherever else I was going to Paris
[53:08]at this point because I speak French. I'm fluent in French. And also my relationship
[53:12]with the French decorate was critical to him. And the French component part of that
[53:18]aspect was really vital. And so you'd have had to find someone who was, well actually
[53:24]in the Spanish trilingual, you would have had to find someone who was trilingual
[53:29]and that he trusted. Did you?
[53:31]To not steal from him. Did you?
[53:38]So when he gets out of jail between that time, 2009 to 10 and 2019,
[53:47]what's your relationship like with, with Mr. Epstein?
[53:50]Almost nonexistent.
[53:52]Why?
[53:54]I had just moved on and I just didn't want to have anything. I didn't want the drama.
[53:58]I didn't want to be associated with.
[54:03]So do you recall when you say almost nonexistent, does that mean?
[54:08]Some phone calls, some visits, some trips.
[54:14]I don't think there were any trips. Oh, I don't think so.
[54:19]Where were you living during that time period?
[54:21]Which time period?
[54:23]Between 2009, 10 and 2019.
[54:26]I was back in New York.
[54:30]So you had no, so you had phone calls with him on occasion?
[54:36]Yes. Well, I certainly did whenever there was any legal drama or any like serious press intention,
[54:42]I always called him to try and find out what was going on.
[54:45]Okay. Okay.
[54:46]And I did email him at that time for those types of details.
[54:50]It was like, what do I do? I mean, I was like.
[54:54]And then when he's charged in New York, federally,
[54:57]how did you learn about that case?
[54:59]In the press.
[55:01]And had you, as far as you know, been contacted by law enforcement
[55:06]before his arrest?
[55:07]No, I wasn't in an indictment.
[55:10]No, I know that, but even as a witness or asking you if you would give documents or materials.
[55:15]I had never, up until when my lawyers said that I don't even know.
[55:24]I had no knowledge of them being interested in me, honestly.
[55:29]I don't, I want to say until he had died.
[55:32]Now I know that my lawyers were in touch with
[55:37]Southern District of New York at some point after his arrest.
[55:40]I'm pretty sure that happened, right?
[55:42]But my understanding is that they had not shown any interest.
[55:46]I know my lawyers went to see them once, I believe.
[55:50]And.
[55:51]Went to see him, meaning Mr. Epstein?
[55:52]No, them, Southern District of New York.
[55:55]Sorry.
[55:56]And that they had been in regular in touch with them.
[56:00]And.
[56:01]But now you're talking about after Mr. Epstein died or are you talking about before he died?
[56:07]I think.
[56:08]If you can't remember.
[56:11]Easily verifiable.
[56:13]My memory is that they were in touch with him when he was arrested.
[56:19]I don't know if anything happened until after his death, then after that.
[56:23]I don't think they saw them, met with them,
[56:26]Southern District of New York I'm talking about now, until after he died.
[56:30]I know that they were in regular telephone contact with them.
[56:34]And that my lawyers believed that they had been told that there was no interest in me.
[56:40]And were absolutely stunned when I was arrested.
[56:44]Maybe stunned is too big a word, but surprised.
[56:47]I certainly was.
[56:48]Okay.
[56:49]So.
[56:52]Okay, so that was a long description of what was a very long life.
[56:58]And that was very helpful.
[56:59]So I want to go back and talk more specifically now about.
[57:03]Particular areas and that was a very helpful kind of foundation for us.
[57:09]The first.
[57:11]The first thing I want to talk about you talk about earlier on.
[57:14]About Mr. Epstein's financial success.
[57:19]What you know, do you know how he when you first meet him at some point.
[57:24]You say, I got this place for you to rent.
[57:25]You can't afford it.
[57:26]And he laughs at you and says, yes, I can.
[57:30]What did you learn about his wealth and how he was.
[57:34]And how he accumulated his money.
[57:35]I can tell you what he told me.
[57:37]Yes.
[57:38]So I, I know that he was hired from working at a private school whose name eludes me at this point.
[57:45]Dalton.
[57:46]Dalton.
[57:46]He was working at Dalton who is a math teacher.
[57:49]And he met, I think it was Ace.
[57:57]I'm not sure.
[57:57]He met someone from Bear who hired him because he was very good at math.
[58:02]And I believe that he then worked on creating a trading of.
[58:19]Just describe it.
[58:20]It's okay.
[58:21]Go ahead.
[58:24]He kind of came up with some new type of trading system.
[58:26]Not, not a system so much, but as a, as a, as a vehicle, a trading vehicle.
[58:32]That I'm just escaping right now.
[58:33]And this is while he was working at Bear.
[58:35]At Bearstowns, yes.
[58:37]Okay.
[58:38]And whilst.
[58:39]And was this before you met him?
[58:41]Yes.
[58:41]So this is what he told you?
[58:43]Yes.
[58:43]And what you learned?
[58:44]Yes.
[58:44]This is what he told me.
[58:45]Okay.
[58:45]Himself.
[58:46]And so, and then eventually he starts a financial firm?
[58:51]You know that to be true or no?
[58:53]J. Epstein and Company, you ever heard of that or no?
[58:56]Yeah, yes.
[58:56]So hang on a minute.
[58:57]So I, this I did not know, but this I had subsequently learned is that he had some
[59:04]problem or some issue at Bearstowns and there was some, I don't know,
[59:10]disagreement.
[59:11]He wasn't fired because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace and with
[59:15]Jimmy, at least by the time I met him.
[59:18]But they were working with him and he ran.
[59:20]He had money at Bearstowns and his money, his client's money.
[59:27]Well, I'll come to that.
[59:28]But he started, he told me himself that he started a business
[59:36]where he looked for stolen money.
[59:41]So if somebody, let's see, I'm trying to think of some intelligent way to say it,
[59:52]but I can't think of anything.
[59:54]I've been with, not really, I'll give it to you.
[59:56]So let's say you have El Chapo.
[59:58]God, I don't know where he comes from, but anyway, we've got El Chapo
[1:00:02]and El Chapo is laundering money or he's working with the Sinaloa cartel
[1:00:07]and he steals money from the Sinaloa cartel and he moves it to wherever.
[1:00:11]So he's got stolen money from the Sinaloa goes to Epstein.
[1:00:15]This didn't happen.
[1:00:15]I'm just coming up with something in my head.
[1:00:20]And the Sinaloa says to Epstein, can you track down my billion dollars
[1:00:25]that the other cartels stole from me in Epstein?
[1:00:29]We'll go and find the billion dollars and we'll take a portion of the money
[1:00:32]that was stolen as a fee and give back.
[1:00:36]I mean, that would be on a percentage basis.
[1:00:38]No, but like what you just described, which I appreciate was just a hypothetical.
[1:00:42]Please, that was completely hypothetical.
[1:00:44]That would involve like so too, kind of drug cartels stealing from each other.
[1:00:49]Practically speaking, he was more of a businessman, correct?
[1:00:55]So here's how I think that started is that he had a girlfriend.
[1:00:57]It was always good, you're always to the girls.
[1:01:00]I guess there was a girl whose name will come back to me,
[1:01:03]maybe not whilst we're here, but I don't know, maybe.
[1:01:06]There's a woman.
[1:01:07]There's always a woman and she was the daughter of a billionaire, for instance.
[1:01:14]And that billionaire, whatever his name was, had had some money stolen.
[1:01:20]And for some reason, this woman introduced Jeffrey and Jeffrey,
[1:01:24]I think that's how that business started.
[1:01:26]That's what I remember.
[1:01:28]And is that something he told you about or something that happened while you knew him?
[1:01:32]No, something he told me before I met him.
[1:01:34]And so when you meet him and once you're part of his life in the early to mid 90s,
[1:01:40]what is he doing to make money that you see?
[1:01:43]Does he have clients?
[1:01:44]Does he have rich clients?
[1:01:45]Does he have famous clients?
[1:01:47]And if he does have clients, what service is he providing them?
[1:01:52]Obviously, there's the one very famous client that everybody talks about,
[1:01:56]which is Les Wexner.
[1:01:57]And that was a very important client to him.
[1:01:59]And I think it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine,
[1:02:06]what I know to be true about what he managed for us.
[1:02:10]And there's some bits that I'll be improvising.
[1:02:14]I want to just make you understand I was not part of Epstein's business world,
[1:02:19]except tangentially and obviously.
[1:02:22]So what I'm talking about is either what I observed or what I overheard or what I saw
[1:02:28]within the business.
[1:02:29]But I wasn't responsible for any of the client's money or anything like that.
[1:02:33]So it's separate.
[1:02:34]Yeah, I understand.
[1:02:35]Okay.
[1:02:35]Go ahead.
[1:02:36]So with Les, for instance, it was really encompassing.
[1:02:44]It could go from the structure of the business.
[1:02:53]So he structured or restructured the limited.
[1:03:00]I know that.
[1:03:01]And I'll come back to that, because I also traveled with him and Les.
[1:03:04]And I was in business meetings with them on the plane when they were there.
[1:03:07]So I could observe and I could hear some of this.
[1:03:10]And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly business sophisticated,
[1:03:14]I'm sophisticated enough to be able to at least
[1:03:18]have some knowledge of what was happening.
[1:03:19]All right.
[1:03:19]So then he restructured the business.
[1:03:23]He restructured his entire personal finances
[1:03:28]and would also handle all of the investment strategy.
[1:03:36]I don't know if it was 100%
[1:03:37]Mr. Wexner, you're saying?
[1:03:39]Sorry, yes.
[1:03:39]This is all Wexner I'm talking about now.
[1:03:42]So let's say you had a billion dollars to invest.
[1:03:48]So you would, you know, in people's investment portfolios,
[1:03:52]you'd have, you know, some tea bars and this and that.
[1:03:55]But Epstein's strategies would be much more sophisticated than that.
[1:04:00]So just staying with Mr. Wexner,
[1:04:04]from what you heard or saw,
[1:04:08]is Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages?
[1:04:12]So there would be a deal and he would be paid?
[1:04:14]Or did you understand it to be like a flat fee?
[1:04:16]Was he a business partner?
[1:04:18]How did you understand him to be paid?
[1:04:20]I think it was more a la carte.
[1:04:22]So let's say, this is a conversation that actually Epstein told me.
[1:04:26]So he illustrated for me, said if I saved someone five billion dollars,
[1:04:33]he would take a flat percentage of that five billion.
[1:04:36]He wouldn't have five billion back.
[1:04:37]When you say you think that,
[1:04:39]is that because you heard him talking about that or you?
[1:04:42]It'd be a combination of both.
[1:04:43]I certainly told me that and I heard him talk to people like that.
[1:04:47]I couldn't, sorry.
[1:04:49]No, no, go ahead.
[1:04:50]No.
[1:04:51]Did he give, did Mr. Wexner gift a property in New York to Mr. Epstein?
[1:04:56]So we're talking about 71st Street.
[1:04:58]I don't know what the business deal was,
[1:05:02]because again, I'm not part of his business thing,
[1:05:04]but I think what happened would be that,
[1:05:07]let's say Les owed him in theoretically for his services,
[1:05:14]a hundred million or whatever it was,
[1:05:17]he could have traded that against the property.
[1:05:19]But do you know that that happened?
[1:05:22]Do you remember whether there was conversations about that
[1:05:24]or are you just thinking that could be one way that it happened?
[1:05:30]I'm not sure.
[1:05:31]I'm not trying to be.
[1:05:32]I just don't remember if that's something I know
[1:05:34]or if that's something that I remember
[1:05:35]or if it's something that I subsequently know.
[1:05:38]I believe that to be what happened,
[1:05:39]but I don't want to tell you that I have.
[1:05:41]Does that make sense?
[1:05:42]Did Mr. Wexner and Mr. Epstein,
[1:05:45]are you aware of their falling out that they ultimately had?
[1:05:49]I think I wasn't there and I don't know how it happened.
[1:05:57]I only know what Les has said in the press.
[1:05:59]So you only know about their, you know,
[1:06:02]their falling out or whatever you want to call it
[1:06:04]from what you've kind of read,
[1:06:06]not from any firsthand knowledge.
[1:06:08]You weren't there.
[1:06:08]You weren't part of that.
[1:06:09]Correct.
[1:06:13]Do you know somebody named Stephen Hoffenberg?
[1:06:19]Only from the press.
[1:06:21]Okay.
[1:06:23]And so you don't know anything about
[1:06:24]whatever business relationship they may have had, Mr. Epstein?
[1:06:28]Never spoke about him.
[1:06:29]Never mentioned it.
[1:06:30]I only learned about that, whatever that is.
[1:06:34]I don't even know what the truth is of that story from the press.
[1:06:39]How about Leon Black?
[1:06:41]Oh, I did meet Leon.
[1:06:42]I do know Leon.
[1:06:44]And again, I know we're talking about a very long time ago,
[1:06:46]but do you remember approximately when you met him?
[1:06:55]I could have met Leon, not really.
[1:06:57]So I might have met him.
[1:07:00]Nothing to do because Leon Black is very good friends
[1:07:03]with other friends of mine.
[1:07:05]I would have met him when I say socially,
[1:07:08]I might have met him.
[1:07:09]How Leon and Epstein became really good friends,
[1:07:13]I don't know.
[1:07:14]I'm not sure.
[1:07:14]But not through you as far as you're concerned?
[1:07:16]Not through me as far as I know, no.
[1:07:19]I'm sure that's not through me.
[1:07:21]Do you know what kind of work
[1:07:23]Mr. Epstein was doing for Mr. Black over the years?
[1:07:27]Same as what he did for Weixner.
[1:07:30]So we just talked about two individuals.
[1:07:35]And again, I know we're talking about
[1:07:38]maybe a 15-year time period or even longer.
[1:07:42]How many clients like that do Mr. Epstein have?
[1:07:45]Well, why don't I just give you the names that I remember?
[1:07:48]Why won't I just give you the names?
[1:07:50]Do you want the names?
[1:07:51]No, sure. Go ahead.
[1:07:54]Elizabeth Johnson, Johnson & Johnson.
[1:07:57]When did, as far as you know,
[1:07:59]when did the relationship between
[1:08:00]Ms. Johnson and Mr. Epstein start?
[1:08:02]90s, 95, 96.
[1:08:10]So during the time period?
[1:08:11]Yes, we're talking 90s.
[1:08:12]We're talking when I was there, when I was around.
[1:08:14]How did their relationship start?
[1:08:18]I don't know how he became that friendly boy.
[1:08:20]He ended up managing her money.
[1:08:21]I wasn't there.
[1:08:22]I mean, I really had a separate life.
[1:08:26]We really had separate lives.
[1:08:29]Except where they said.
[1:08:30]But it wasn't from?
[1:08:32]It wasn't from me.
[1:08:32]From you?
[1:08:33]No, it was not.
[1:08:33]Okay.
[1:08:34]And what's your understanding of what
[1:08:36]Mr. Epstein did for Ms. Johnson?
[1:08:38]Same as what he did for Wexner.
[1:08:40]And when I, and you have to understand,
[1:08:41]it went down to, in tiny detail.
[1:08:44]So I remember, this I remember,
[1:08:46]this is an actual memory,
[1:08:47]that he would make the contracts for the maids,
[1:08:51]for the people who worked in their homes.
[1:08:53]So he would assist his clients at times with,
[1:08:57]you're saying, with even small things,
[1:08:59]like contractual relationships.
[1:09:00]He said no detail was too small,
[1:09:02]because everything that affected how they lived
[1:09:05]and how they managed their life
[1:09:07]was something that he felt he was,
[1:09:10]if they wanted, would be responsible for,
[1:09:12]to make sure that the contracts,
[1:09:13]so that if you had to fire someone,
[1:09:15]it wouldn't come back and sue you,
[1:09:17]or if it, that sort of thing.
[1:09:20]Okay, so Mr. Black, Mr. Werner,
[1:09:24]Ms. Johnson, who else?
[1:09:26]What's the name of the woman?
[1:09:37]There's someone named Jess Staley?
[1:09:39]Yeah, I do know Jess.
[1:09:40]Who's that?
[1:09:40]He was at Morgan Stanley and at Barclays.
[1:09:45]What, do you know whether he
[1:09:46]and Mr. Upsheen had a relationship?
[1:09:49]Well, not a, not a physical one.
[1:09:52]Well, I didn't suggest it.
[1:09:53]I'm sorry.
[1:09:54]No, I'm saying a relationship,
[1:09:56]in the broadest sense of the word,
[1:09:57]business, personal, both?
[1:09:59]Yes, both.
[1:10:00]Okay, and do you know when they met?
[1:10:10]No, I, no, I don't know when they met.
[1:10:14]But you can time it.
[1:10:15]No, I don't know that you can.
[1:10:16]No, I don't know.
[1:10:17]So, but what was the nature of their relationship
[1:10:19]as far as you know?
[1:10:20]I think they were friends
[1:10:21]and I think that they were business partners.
[1:10:23]Well, partners, too strong a word,
[1:10:24]but they worked, they did business together.
[1:10:27]So, did you, again,
[1:10:30]I want to stay focused on the time
[1:10:31]when you were the most involved in his life.
[1:10:33]So, the early 90s through early 2000s?
[1:10:36]Beginning of the 2000s, yes.
[1:10:38]Did you, so we talked about four people.
[1:10:43]There's more.
[1:10:44]Were there more?
[1:10:45]Oh yes, there were more.
[1:10:46]There was a lady whose name I just can't,
[1:10:49]can I get my book?
[1:10:50]Maybe I wrote them down.
[1:10:51]Sure.
[1:10:52]Epstein wouldn't really let me meet his clients.
[1:11:16]What book are you, what is that?
[1:11:18]I've got some notes for the meeting.
[1:11:19]Okay, great.
[1:11:20]Is that right?
[1:11:21]No, that's fine.
[1:11:21]I just was curious what we're looking at.
[1:11:23]Oh, okay.
[1:11:24]Not the birthday book.
[1:11:25]It's not the birthday book.
[1:11:26]No, we're gonna come to that, I'm sure.
[1:11:27]Yeah.
[1:11:28]All right, I wrote down some names because I tried to make,
[1:11:31]I just want you to understand,
[1:11:33]my memory's not as good as it was
[1:11:35]because when I was in Brooklyn,
[1:11:38]I was in the shoe for almost two years
[1:11:41]and I was on suicide watch for almost two years,
[1:11:44]which meant that they woke me up every 15 minutes
[1:11:46]for the entire time
[1:11:48]and it really did affect my ability to.
[1:11:52]I understand.
[1:11:53]Okay.
[1:11:53]Yeah.
[1:11:54]So, I'm not.
[1:11:54]So, you've taken some notes.
[1:11:56]I just made some names in advance of it.
[1:11:59]And you're happy to look at them.
[1:12:00]No, go ahead.
[1:12:02]Okay, well, funny you say.
[1:12:04]First two names, one is Wexner,
[1:12:06]two is Staley, three is Leon Black.
[1:12:08]Okay.
[1:12:10]Glenn Dubin was a client.
[1:12:11]Who's that?
[1:12:12]Eva Dubin's husband.
[1:12:14]Okay.
[1:12:15]What was their, I mean, if you can,
[1:12:18]do you know about when that relationship started?
[1:12:22]Well, it wouldn't have been before they got married for sure,
[1:12:24]so you're going to start,
[1:12:26]you're going to date that from wherever that was.
[1:12:29]And then Epstein was heavily involved
[1:12:33]with Highbridge Capital
[1:12:35]and the financing or selling of Highbridge to JP Morgan.
[1:12:40]Okay.
[1:12:42]Go ahead.
[1:12:43]There's a Dubin.
[1:12:44]Yep.
[1:12:47]Okay, you're only looking for clients.
[1:12:48]So, all right, there's a woman,
[1:12:56]well, there's a woman in Ohio
[1:13:00]I just can't think of her name,
[1:13:02]but it will, I tried to remember it yesterday and I can't.
[1:13:05]So this is a good thing,
[1:13:06]you know, as you think of things,
[1:13:08]write it down and if they have any other names,
[1:13:10]they'll ask you, but don't force it out.
[1:13:13]So you'll have time to think about this,
[1:13:15]especially today, this afternoon, overnight,
[1:13:17]because we'll probably meet tomorrow.
[1:13:18]But you can find them.
[1:13:19]I mean, if you basically find a billionaire female.
[1:13:22]So the woman in Ohio who's wealthy.
[1:13:24]Well, you can identify her yourself
[1:13:25]because she had the largest client
[1:13:29]painting that was huge.
[1:13:31]So you can find her because it'll be in the museum.
[1:13:34]So that's her.
[1:13:34]So he, that was one of Mr. Epstein's clients.
[1:13:37]She was one of Mr. Epstein's clients as well.
[1:13:39]Yes.
[1:13:39]Okay, who else?
[1:13:43]Well, I think that there was people,
[1:13:47]other people that he would like assist.
[1:13:50]I know that he helped Lynn Forrester
[1:13:52]who became Linda Rothchild.
[1:13:54]She'll deny it and she has, but she can't.
[1:13:57]Okay.
[1:13:59]And when you say help, the same
[1:14:01]help in business or what will help?
[1:14:04]I have no idea what he did for her.
[1:14:05]I know he helped her financially.
[1:14:07]Her husband was the controller of New York.
[1:14:10]So, but I don't, again, I'm not inside his business,
[1:14:12]but he would have, his, his,
[1:14:16]this notion that he blackmailed men
[1:14:19]we don't really have to go there.
[1:14:20]That he wasn't a businessman
[1:14:21]and that everything he did was a fraud
[1:14:23]or a funk or whatever.
[1:14:24]I don't believe that to be true.
[1:14:25]Why?
[1:14:27]Sorry?
[1:14:27]Why do you, so you say you don't believe it to be true,
[1:14:29]but show me why you think that.
[1:14:31]I know you've been talking about it
[1:14:33]that he was very, he was very conscientious.
[1:14:35]He was very good at math.
[1:14:36]He was, paid a lot of attention to his clients.
[1:14:39]But, but yes, you're right.
[1:14:40]There's allegations of blackmail
[1:14:43]or also that there was some level of fraud
[1:14:45]involved in what he did and you don't believe it.
[1:14:47]Why do you, why do you say that?
[1:14:48]Well, I, let me rephrase that.
[1:14:51]If there was fraud, I never saw it.
[1:14:54]What I saw or what I felt
[1:14:56]when I, his, I ran that office.
[1:14:58]I mean, ran.
[1:14:59]I didn't, I was responsible for the staff.
[1:15:01]People worked.
[1:15:02]There were lawyers.
[1:15:03]There were accountants.
[1:15:06]I never heard him.
[1:15:08]I never, I never felt anything icky.
[1:15:16]Did you ever see him blackmail a client?
[1:15:20]No.
[1:15:20]Did you ever see him blackmail a friend or an acquaintance?
[1:15:24]No.
[1:15:25]Well, so I think when folks talk about blackmail
[1:15:30]and we can talk about, sorry about that.
[1:15:31]We can talk about that now.
[1:15:34]There are a lot of allegations about him,
[1:15:37]which we should talk about and we can do that now.
[1:15:40]And the fact that he abused young women.
[1:15:43]Yes.
[1:15:44]Full stop, okay.
[1:15:46]Which means the way that I'm defining abuse,
[1:15:49]as has been widely reported,
[1:15:51]is that he would cause young women in high school
[1:15:57]to be recruited to come to his house
[1:15:58]and give him massages.
[1:16:00]And as part of that, he would sexually abuse them.
[1:16:06]Yes.
[1:16:07]So I want to talk about that.
[1:16:09]But as it relates to blackmail,
[1:16:12]the question is whether you're aware of any time
[1:16:16]that any of the individuals we're talking about
[1:16:18]and we'll talk about others.
[1:16:22]Receive massages from women who are under 18
[1:16:26]or may have been under 18
[1:16:28]and that whether there was any sexual assaults
[1:16:31]or sexual contact between any of these people
[1:16:34]and those masseuses,
[1:16:37]which would have allowed them, Mr. Epstein,
[1:16:39]potentially to blackmail them and say,
[1:16:42]you have to continue to work with me
[1:16:43]or you have to give me money
[1:16:44]or else I'm going to tell the world that you did this.
[1:16:50]Right.
[1:16:51]I think this is a really good place to start
[1:16:54]with how this story began.
[1:16:56]Okay.
[1:16:58]So even let's assume that that premise is correct,
[1:17:03]that he was doing that
[1:17:05]and he was going to tell everybody,
[1:17:07]you know, going to say,
[1:17:08]oh, you know, you had inappropriate relations
[1:17:11]with an underage girl.
[1:17:13]If you don't have video or photographic evidence,
[1:17:19]I'm not sure that even the FBI would take that,
[1:17:21]well, maybe today,
[1:17:22]but certainly not back then,
[1:17:24]would take that seriously.
[1:17:26]So you have to have something to say,
[1:17:29]hey, you know, look,
[1:17:30]I've got this video of you doing terrible things
[1:17:34]and you need to.
[1:17:35]So I built those houses,
[1:17:39]many of them.
[1:17:40]I decorated those houses.
[1:17:42]I put the electricians in for the wiring.
[1:17:46]I never wired nor saw
[1:17:49]a single house that had any type of inappropriate,
[1:17:56]let's say, video surveillance.
[1:17:58]And I'll define that for you.
[1:18:00]Inappropriate surveillance would mean
[1:18:02]in a bathroom, in a bedroom,
[1:18:05]in any private area of a home.
[1:18:07]In a room where there were massages given.
[1:18:10]Inappropriate.
[1:18:12]I would say I would define appropriate
[1:18:16]surveillance to be the front door of a house
[1:18:19]or potentially, as in 71st Street,
[1:18:23]the physical plant.
[1:18:27]Anywhere else would be grotesque.
[1:18:30]So I just want to come back to,
[1:18:33]I know I'm just hopefully saying the obvious,
[1:18:35]but when you say the houses,
[1:18:37]you're talking about his New York brownstone.
[1:18:42]Yes.
[1:18:42]You're talking about the island in the Caribbean.
[1:18:47]Yes.
[1:18:48]You're talking about the residence in Palm Beach.
[1:18:50]Yes.
[1:18:51]And you're talking about the ranch in New Mexico.
[1:18:53]Yes.
[1:18:54]Anywhere else?
[1:18:55]Paris.
[1:18:55]And in Paris.
[1:18:58]And the plane.
[1:18:58]I saw some ridiculous thing with the plane.
[1:19:00]That was what I did.
[1:19:02]I didn't hire any electrician on the plane.
[1:19:04]So unequivocally, from what you know,
[1:19:07]and you only know what you know.
[1:19:09]I only know what I know.
[1:19:09]But from what you know,
[1:19:11]you do not believe a camera exists
[1:19:14]or a video camera or a camera that takes pictures
[1:19:20]inside any of his residences.
[1:19:23]Correct.
[1:19:23]So even the appropriate cameras
[1:19:25]that you just talked about,
[1:19:26]which would be kind of exterior security cameras.
[1:19:29]Did you know whether there was any cameras
[1:19:32]that you're aware of inside any of the locations?
[1:19:36]Never.
[1:19:37]With one exception.
[1:19:38]Okay.
[1:19:38]What's the exception?
[1:19:39]The exception is Palm Beach.
[1:19:41]Okay.
[1:19:41]And the reason...
[1:19:42]So in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen.
[1:19:46]He noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase.
[1:19:49]Or his briefcase.
[1:19:51]And he called in the Palm Beach police.
[1:19:58]And they, the Palm Beach police,
[1:20:01]installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase.
[1:20:06]Where was that, do you remember?
[1:20:07]At his desk.
[1:20:09]So the house on the ground floor was...
[1:20:15]He had a desk sort of in a corner.
[1:20:19]There was that camera.
[1:20:20]I think there was another camera.
[1:20:21]I think there were two or maybe three cameras.
[1:20:23]I believe only on the ground floor,
[1:20:25]wherever he may have had.
[1:20:27]Maybe he had another office in the cabana.
[1:20:29]There may have been a camera there.
[1:20:30]When was this?
[1:20:32]I'm not looking for an exact date,
[1:20:33]but what time period are you thinking about
[1:20:35]when you said this?
[1:20:35]2003.
[1:20:37]I think I can date it for you precisely, actually.
[1:20:39]2003, I'm pretty firm on that date.
[1:20:42]And I can be firm because John Alessi,
[1:20:45]the butler, was fired in the end of 2002
[1:20:51]and he was the thief.
[1:20:53]So aside from law enforcement installing a camera
[1:20:57]to try to catch somebody stealing money
[1:20:59]from Mr. Epstein,
[1:21:01]you're not aware of any cameras
[1:21:04]at the island...
[1:21:08]No, sorry, just so we record.
[1:21:11]Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.
[1:21:13]That's okay.
[1:21:13]You were nodding your head no.
[1:21:15]So what about...
[1:21:17]No cameras anywhere outside of possibly things
[1:21:21]that I would consider myself,
[1:21:23]I would consider normal.
[1:21:24]So the garage gate, something like that,
[1:21:28]a front door.
[1:21:28]Outside, like security cameras?
[1:21:30]Security cameras.
[1:21:31]There were cameras inside in the 71st Street
[1:21:34]that did the plant, the physical plant,
[1:21:37]because it was a commercial building.
[1:21:39]So you had the whole...
[1:21:40]That's a real thing.
[1:21:41]That's a commercial building.
[1:21:42]And there was one camera on the front door,
[1:21:45]internal, from the internal that did the front door,
[1:21:48]as I recall.
[1:21:49]But there were no other cameras inside the house.
[1:21:55]How about photographs?
[1:21:56]Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein
[1:21:59]or anybody around him take pictures of anybody
[1:22:04]in compromising positions with women or with anybody?
[1:22:10]Did you ever hear, when you were present
[1:22:14]for conversations that Mr. Epstein was having
[1:22:16]or others were having,
[1:22:17]anybody accuse him of blackmailing them
[1:22:21]or of trying to extort them
[1:22:25]because of something Mr. Epstein knew?
[1:22:27]No.
[1:22:30]There have been...
[1:22:36]In the discovery you got in the New York case,
[1:22:40]and in the civil cases that you've been part of
[1:22:45]associated with Mr. Epstein,
[1:22:48]have you ever been given or ever been told
[1:22:52]that video exists like what we're talking about
[1:22:55]or photos were taken that were compromising?
[1:22:59]So in both of those,
[1:23:02]I didn't receive no pictures or anything
[1:23:04]from the civil case.
[1:23:05]But in the criminal case,
[1:23:06]I received videos of Epstein talking to women
[1:23:11]and stuff like that.
[1:23:12]I did get those.
[1:23:13]I also saw binders, photographs of women,
[1:23:20]in determine.
[1:23:21]I never saw any...
[1:23:23]I don't know how old some of these women were.
[1:23:25]They were definitely some of the victims
[1:23:27]from Palm Beach.
[1:23:29]Photographs of them.
[1:23:33]In those photographs,
[1:23:35]were the victims that were photographed,
[1:23:39]were there any of the people you've talked about?
[1:23:42]Were there men with the victims
[1:23:43]or were they just photographs of the victims?
[1:23:46]There was no men with these pictures.
[1:23:50]There was no client of his with those pictures.
[1:23:53]They would be standalone,
[1:23:58]for want of a better word,
[1:24:00]modeling shots.
[1:24:05]Pictures that Epstein had with the girls,
[1:24:07]but not Epstein with the clients and the girls?
[1:24:09]Correct.
[1:24:12]I understand you said you got those
[1:24:15]in the discovery.
[1:24:19]Did you know those pictures like that existed?
[1:24:22]Right now I'm talking about photographs of victims
[1:24:27]or photographs of women
[1:24:29]that Mr. Epstein had on his computer
[1:24:32]or wherever he had them.
[1:24:33]Did you know that those photos existed
[1:24:35]before you got them in discovery?
[1:24:37]Some of them, absolutely,
[1:24:39]because they were in his house.
[1:24:41]Some of these pictures were on his credenza
[1:24:44]or whatever.
[1:24:46]Some pictures I'd simply never seen before.
[1:24:50]I mean there was...
[1:24:52]I'd never seen some of them.
[1:24:54]Some of them I had,
[1:24:54]some of them I hadn't.
[1:24:55]I mean...
[1:24:57]Did you...
[1:24:58]So you're right,
[1:24:59]and I accept that having video or photographs
[1:25:04]of somebody famous or powerful
[1:25:06]in a compromising position
[1:25:09]would be good blackmail.
[1:25:13]Putting aside what you've said about
[1:25:15]the fact that you don't know
[1:25:16]of any existence of those,
[1:25:19]did you observe over the years
[1:25:23]the folks we're talking about or others,
[1:25:25]which we can talk about,
[1:25:26]getting massages from young women?
[1:25:29]So I just...
[1:25:32]I think it's really helpful
[1:25:34]to understand a few things
[1:25:35]that has been missed in this whole Michigan.
[1:25:41]That's a technical term.
[1:25:43]I'll look it up later.
[1:25:45]Go ahead.
[1:25:46]I've thought about this obviously a lot
[1:25:50]and I've given it some...
[1:25:52]So this is the benefit of...
[1:25:55]Some benefit of what I saw
[1:25:57]and some benefit of what I now think.
[1:25:58]So just for clarity's sake.
[1:26:02]I think...
[1:26:03]I just want to say for the record
[1:26:05]that I do believe that Epstein
[1:26:07]did a lot of...
[1:26:08]Not all, but some of what he's accused of
[1:26:11]and I'm not here to defend him
[1:26:12]in any respect.
[1:26:14]I don't want to
[1:26:14]and I don't think he requires
[1:26:16]nor deserves any type of protection
[1:26:18]or for me in any way to sugarcoat
[1:26:22]what he did or didn't do.
[1:26:23]So there's that.
[1:26:26]However, the man I met
[1:26:31]and the man he became.
[1:26:34]I believe that there is a progression
[1:26:38]and I don't think that the man I met
[1:26:43]is the man that he became.
[1:26:44]I believe he became that man
[1:26:46]over a period of time.
[1:26:47]Now, we can discuss anything you want
[1:26:51]and I'll tell you everything I know.
[1:26:54]But I think somebody who has an interest,
[1:27:01]however you define it,
[1:27:03]in underage people
[1:27:05]is obviously someone who is unwell.
[1:27:08]But I don't think that you wake up one day
[1:27:11]and you start doing what he's accused of.
[1:27:14]I think this is something that you develop
[1:27:19]or you progress to.
[1:27:22]I think.
[1:27:24]Before you get into all that,
[1:27:26]let's answer the top line question
[1:27:28]and then get into it.
[1:27:28]Okay, the top line question is...
[1:27:30]Did you ever see any of these people
[1:27:32]with underage...
[1:27:33]No, no.
[1:27:34]So the reason I'm saying that
[1:27:36]is not to avoid that question
[1:27:38]but it's because by the time
[1:27:39]when you're talking in the 90s,
[1:27:41]I don't think he was there.
[1:27:45]There's that description.
[1:27:47]I think that this,
[1:27:48]what you're talking about is a later version.
[1:27:50]Yeah, and...
[1:27:51]Does that...
[1:27:51]Is that...
[1:27:52]No, I understand that
[1:27:53]and I do want to talk...
[1:27:54]I'm not...
[1:27:54]So it's just I think you need
[1:27:56]to separate the periods of time.
[1:27:58]Sure.
[1:27:58]Because one of the things
[1:28:00]that was definitely missing in my trial
[1:28:02]and definitely missing from the narrative
[1:28:04]is this notion that everything happened
[1:28:07]and he was always a bit...
[1:28:08]No, I don't believe that to be true.
[1:28:10]So that's fine
[1:28:12]and I do want to talk about that.
[1:28:13]I'm not pushing that away.
[1:28:16]I'm just putting it aside for a moment.
[1:28:19]What Mr. Epstein did
[1:28:21]and frankly what you did
[1:28:23]or are accused of doing
[1:28:25]is one thing that we'll talk about.
[1:28:27]But right now what I want to understand
[1:28:30]is whether one of the ways
[1:28:34]that Mr. Epstein befriended his clients
[1:28:37]or took care of them
[1:28:39]or some would say blackmailed them
[1:28:41]was by encouraging them to have,
[1:28:44]to interact with women underage or not.
[1:28:48]So I think in the 90s
[1:28:50]he may have encouraged them
[1:28:51]but these were people
[1:28:52]who were in their 20s or 30s.
[1:28:55]So...
[1:28:56]So he would have a masseuse, right?
[1:28:58]And he did, male and female by the way
[1:29:00]in the 90s that's never been discussed
[1:29:02]both in yoga and everything
[1:29:04]there were men as well as women.
[1:29:05]And so if you would travel
[1:29:07]and I can show them to you
[1:29:08]I've highlighted them on the flight record
[1:29:11]so you could see that there really were men
[1:29:12]that were also there.
[1:29:14]He would say would you like to do yoga with Tito
[1:29:17]or would you like a massage with this one?
[1:29:19]But they would be in their late 20s
[1:29:23]and professional masseuses.
[1:29:25]So...
[1:29:26]So I think there's a distinction.
[1:29:27]And I want to talk about actual individuals here
[1:29:29]but...
[1:29:29]And I understand the distinction
[1:29:31]between somebody who's an adult
[1:29:33]and someone who's underage.
[1:29:35]But even with somebody who's an adult
[1:29:38]did you know Mr. Epstein
[1:29:39]to encourage folks to do that
[1:29:42]whether it's a client or somebody else?
[1:29:45]I certainly witnessed him.
[1:29:47]So if you were staying with him
[1:29:49]and you had a massage
[1:29:50]that he would often travel with a masseuse
[1:29:53]he would say hey would you like a massage?
[1:29:54]And he did do that, yes.
[1:29:56]But would you or him or anybody else
[1:29:59]follow up with the masseuse afterwards
[1:30:01]to find out if there was any inappropriate
[1:30:03]sexual concept?
[1:30:04]I never did, no.
[1:30:05]So meaning...
[1:30:06]And coming back to the blackmail issue
[1:30:07]there's nothing wrong with getting a massage.
[1:30:09]Of course not.
[1:30:13]Especially if somebody's obviously an adult masseuse
[1:30:15]I'm not quibbling with that.
[1:30:17]My question is that there's a lot of accusations
[1:30:20]that one of the way Mr. Maxwell
[1:30:22]I'm sorry Mr. Epstein was successful
[1:30:24]was through this idea of blackmail.
[1:30:26]I never...
[1:30:27]Yes, young women is a crime.
[1:30:30]Children is a crime.
[1:30:32]But even women over the age of 18
[1:30:35]if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men
[1:30:39]or whomever to get massages
[1:30:41]and have inappropriate sexual contact
[1:30:42]with the masseuses
[1:30:44]that's a separate issue.
[1:30:46]Maybe slightly nuanced
[1:30:48]but did you ever know him to do that?
[1:30:51]I never did, absolutely, myself.
[1:30:53]I never heard him ask someone.
[1:30:55]I never heard that.
[1:30:57]I never...
[1:30:57]No one in the entire time I was with him
[1:31:00]or friends with him or had anyone
[1:31:01]no one ever reported to me
[1:31:03]or came to me and said that
[1:31:06]anything inappropriate happened
[1:31:07]or was upset by it.
[1:31:08]I never saw it.
[1:31:09]I never saw ever any of that.
[1:31:12]When you say no one ever reported to me
[1:31:14]meaning like the masseuses
[1:31:15]or any of the house staff?
[1:31:17]Or the clients.
[1:31:18]Or the clients themselves?
[1:31:20]Never.
[1:31:21]Um so so let's again
[1:31:29]I want to stay
[1:31:30]and coming back now
[1:31:32]to what you were talking about
[1:31:33]a moment ago
[1:31:33]with Mr. Epstein's kind of progression
[1:31:36]or getting worse
[1:31:38]just staying within the 90s.
[1:31:42]What role did you have
[1:31:44]or what did you observe?
[1:31:45]Which are two different issues
[1:31:46]but both important
[1:31:48]with respect to recruiting masseuses
[1:31:51]to come to either
[1:31:53]I guess Palm Beach
[1:31:54]or to travel
[1:31:55]or eventually New Mexico.
[1:31:58]What role did you have in that?
[1:31:59]He asked me to find masseuses for him.
[1:32:01]Say it again?
[1:32:02]He asked me if I could find him
[1:32:04]masseuses.
[1:32:06]Like as part of
[1:32:06]like you said
[1:32:07]you were his general manager
[1:32:07]so as part of all your duties
[1:32:09]that was one of them.
[1:32:09]And I did do that.
[1:32:11]So the first person
[1:32:14]I believe that I introduced him to
[1:32:16]as a masseuse
[1:32:16]was somebody called
[1:32:17]she was I don't know
[1:32:22]late 20s professional masseuse.
[1:32:25]Was this something that happened
[1:32:27]early on in your relationship
[1:32:28]or and again I know
[1:32:29]we're talking about the 90s
[1:32:30]but are we talking about early 90s
[1:32:32]or is this later on?
[1:32:33]So in terms of massage
[1:32:36]I have a lot of injuries.
[1:32:40]I do a lot of dangerous sports
[1:32:43]and have had
[1:32:46]multiple serious accidents
[1:32:48]and walk without any
[1:32:51]to lameness
[1:32:53]because of physical therapy
[1:32:55]and massage.
[1:32:56]I've that to me is a very
[1:33:01]it's medicinal for me.
[1:33:03]So Epstein
[1:33:06]whatever his massage situation
[1:33:08]or whatever he loved massage
[1:33:10]and if I met somebody
[1:33:11]who I thought was a good masseuse
[1:33:12]or masseur
[1:33:13]I introduced them
[1:33:15]and he because I got them
[1:33:16]and he asked me if I did
[1:33:17]and I said yes
[1:33:18]and that's I'm pretty sure
[1:33:20]that would have
[1:33:24]93, 92 from the beginning.
[1:33:28]So go ahead.
[1:33:30]So then what happens
[1:33:31]over the next
[1:33:34]there's been
[1:33:35]there's a ton of writing
[1:33:36]and a ton of
[1:33:37]I guess testimony as well
[1:33:38]but also public reporting
[1:33:41]about how the recruiting
[1:33:42]was a very aggressive effort
[1:33:45]that you were part of
[1:33:46]and that he was a part of
[1:33:47]and others
[1:33:48]to try to find more
[1:33:49]and more masseuses.
[1:33:51]Is that true
[1:33:52]and what role did you have
[1:33:53]in that?
[1:33:56]That is partially true.
[1:33:58]So it is true
[1:33:59]that I found masseuses
[1:34:00]and he became more insistent
[1:34:07]he liked new all the time
[1:34:09]he got bored
[1:34:10]so he would be bored
[1:34:11]with that masseuse
[1:34:12]and he would say
[1:34:13]find me a new masseuse.
[1:34:15]I am the entire opposite
[1:34:17]if I find someone that I like
[1:34:18]I stay with them
[1:34:19]I'm like I don't want new
[1:34:21]he would drive for new
[1:34:22]so that is true
[1:34:24]and in my effort to find them
[1:34:26]I would go to massage spas
[1:34:29]like legitimate spas
[1:34:32]we're not talking
[1:34:33]you know funky ones
[1:34:36]and I if I got a massage
[1:34:38]from somebody in a spa
[1:34:39]that was I liked
[1:34:42]I liked
[1:34:43]I asked them
[1:34:43]if they would do home visits
[1:34:44]if they said yes
[1:34:46]I would ask them to come
[1:34:47]to the house
[1:34:48]and he would see
[1:34:48]if he liked them or not
[1:34:49]but these were
[1:34:51]people who worked in spas.
[1:34:52]I never ever checked their age
[1:34:54]and I never checked
[1:34:54]their credentials
[1:34:55]I never asked for a certificate.
[1:34:57]What um
[1:34:58]but just to be clear
[1:34:59]you never thought anybody
[1:35:00]was underage.
[1:35:00]I never crossed my
[1:35:01]I never no
[1:35:02]that was never my
[1:35:03]that was never a drive.
[1:35:05]What um
[1:35:08]what did you know
[1:35:09]at the time about him
[1:35:11]Mr. Epstein
[1:35:13]requiring masseuses
[1:35:15]to be naked
[1:35:16]or requiring masseuses
[1:35:18]to either perform
[1:35:21]sexual favors
[1:35:22]for Mr. Epstein
[1:35:22]or to be there
[1:35:23]if Mr. Epstein masturbated
[1:35:25]or things like that
[1:35:26]and again I'm asking you
[1:35:27]about a 15 year period
[1:35:28]or whatever 10 year period
[1:35:30]so I appreciate
[1:35:31]it's a very broad question
[1:35:32]so answer it in a way
[1:35:33]that you know
[1:35:34]addresses what you've been
[1:35:35]charged with doing
[1:35:36]but also what's been said
[1:35:37]about you.
[1:35:38]Okay so I don't
[1:35:40]the 90s I don't think
[1:35:41]that I ever thought
[1:35:42]that never would cross my mind.
[1:35:44]Um I'm not sure
[1:35:46]that I thought about that
[1:35:47]in those contexts at all
[1:35:49]until uh his arrest
[1:35:51]and those papers came out
[1:35:52]but I believe the
[1:35:55]the um subject
[1:35:57]of the question
[1:35:58]that you're asking me
[1:35:59]I believe started in the
[1:36:01]2000s.
[1:36:04]In the 2000 time period?
[1:36:05]Yes 2000.
[1:36:06]Why do you
[1:36:07]why do you think
[1:36:08]like what in your mind
[1:36:09]makes you think
[1:36:09]that that's the time
[1:36:10]that it started?
[1:36:12]I think because in
[1:36:14]December of 2001
[1:36:15]he met and I think
[1:36:19]I think
[1:36:21]was um
[1:36:23]responsible for
[1:36:27]that
[1:36:29]in its entirety
[1:36:31]and the reason I believe that
[1:36:33]so this
[1:36:35]she was a
[1:36:37]self-confessed
[1:36:39]having been
[1:36:41]sexually abused as a
[1:36:43]young girl and
[1:36:45]was trained, her words
[1:36:47]I'm quoting now, not mine
[1:36:49]in all the arts of
[1:36:51]whatever that is
[1:36:55]sex program
[1:36:57]or
[1:36:59]by a man called
[1:37:01]Ron Appinger who was her
[1:37:03]pimp from when she was 14
[1:37:05]actually or 15 I don't know
[1:37:07]and in her book
[1:37:09]describes him training her
[1:37:11]to be what every
[1:37:13]man wants in all
[1:37:15]its manners
[1:37:17]fellatio and everything
[1:37:19]else. I believe
[1:37:21]that then what happened was
[1:37:23]that he met her
[1:37:25]and she came as a masseuse
[1:37:27]to his house in December
[1:37:29]of 2001
[1:37:31]is when I think it
[1:37:33]started. Now what their
[1:37:35]relationship was on what
[1:37:37]happened with them
[1:37:39]in that early period of time I cannot
[1:37:41]say. What I can
[1:37:43]say is that he
[1:37:45]liked her and she started to travel
[1:37:47]with him at that time period.
[1:37:49]I believe, I know then
[1:37:51]what happened was that she
[1:37:53]when she first started to see him
[1:37:55]or first came
[1:37:57]into his orbit as his
[1:37:59]masseuse or whatever
[1:38:01]she was engaged to be married
[1:38:03]and wearing an engagement ring
[1:38:05]and was living with her fiancé.
[1:38:07]She broke up
[1:38:09]after a few months
[1:38:11]with her fiancé
[1:38:13]and took up with the
[1:38:15]medical drug dealer.
[1:38:17]So let's say after
[1:38:19]four or five months of
[1:38:21]the time period when she was seeing
[1:38:23]Epstein let's say
[1:38:25]we're now May, June
[1:38:27]of 2002
[1:38:29]or so
[1:38:31]whenever she
[1:38:33]hits the whatever that is
[1:38:35]I think it's 2000
[1:38:37]I think it's when she met him
[1:38:39]December of 2000.
[1:38:41]So then you go through
[1:38:43]I don't remember you'll have to
[1:38:45]look.
[1:38:47]I'm not holding you to exact dates.
[1:38:49]No I mean I'm just trying to
[1:38:51]so then I think
[1:38:53]she takes up with the local drug dealer
[1:38:55]and she becomes
[1:38:57]druggy, druggy.
[1:39:01]You know how druggy's
[1:39:03]normally are. I live with them
[1:39:05]in Tallahassee. They become
[1:39:07]even more unreliable than normal.
[1:39:10]And at some point
[1:39:14]she's now working somewhere else. He stops
[1:39:16]seeing her because he doesn't like people who do drugs.
[1:39:18]And I think that not seeing
[1:39:22]her lasted five or six
[1:39:24]months and in that period of time she got
[1:39:26]arrested for
[1:39:28]theft
[1:39:30]and she had a warrant out for her arrest.
[1:39:32]Now this I've pieced together because
[1:39:35]this piece I didn't know.
[1:39:37]She then
[1:39:39]called
[1:39:41]Epstein to have help
[1:39:43]avoiding the
[1:39:45]warrant for her arrest.
[1:39:47]And he
[1:39:49]sent her to Thailand to get
[1:39:52]a massage
[1:39:54]therapy license.
[1:39:56]This is the bit that I guess.
[1:39:58]This is the bit that I extrapolated.
[1:40:00]In the period of time from when she came back
[1:40:02]to when she left
[1:40:04]he asked her to replace herself
[1:40:06]as his masseuse or whatever
[1:40:08]whatever she was doing.
[1:40:10]And she brought the first
[1:40:12]replacement for her
[1:40:14]that would have been
[1:40:18]one of the accusers in my case
[1:40:20]I think would have been
[1:40:22]and that
[1:40:24]and then everyone who came subsequent
[1:40:26]simultaneously if she
[1:40:28]wasn't the first I don't know
[1:40:30]everyone
[1:40:32]every single person who came to his house
[1:40:34]came through
[1:40:36]and her boyfriend Tony
[1:40:38]and then whoever else
[1:40:40]underneath her. And that is how it started.
[1:40:42]So before
[1:40:44]Tony Figueroa
[1:40:46]before
[1:40:48]her, so now going back
[1:40:50]into the 90s
[1:40:52]you don't believe
[1:40:57]that Mr. Epstein was
[1:40:59]abusing
[1:41:01]masseuses.
[1:41:03]Underage.
[1:41:05]Or overage. I mean I think
[1:41:07]I'm using abuse in the broadest sense of word because
[1:41:09]I'm assuming that you
[1:41:11]you said that you have no idea
[1:41:13]over the years. You always
[1:41:15]assumed that masseuses were overage right?
[1:41:17]I'm talking about abuse. I'm even talking about
[1:41:19]an adult masseuse who comes in to give
[1:41:21]a massage and is told to take off their clothes
[1:41:23]told they're not going to get paid and they don't care about their clothes
[1:41:25]basically suggested
[1:41:27]they had to watch him masturbate. Like the things
[1:41:29]that have been publicly said about what he did
[1:41:31]for now I'm not distinguishing
[1:41:33]between adults or young
[1:41:35]or underage women for that. I'm saying abuse.
[1:41:37]I'm going to think that that would have been a habit.
[1:41:39]I'm going to say that the massage
[1:41:41]game was a habit.
[1:41:43]What does that mean?
[1:41:45]That means that
[1:41:48]I'm sure that he didn't suddenly start
[1:41:50]having relations with masseuses in
[1:41:52]2002. I'm sure
[1:41:54]he must have had relations with masseuses
[1:41:56]who knows when.
[1:41:58]But you're saying as far as you, I use the word
[1:42:00]abuse. You're saying that as
[1:42:02]far as you sit here today
[1:42:04]you would describe them more as
[1:42:06]consensual. Meaning the masseuse
[1:42:08]did those, did this
[1:42:10]willingly.
[1:42:12]I saw him with lots of
[1:42:14]masseuses. I never saw a single
[1:42:16]masseuse ever
[1:42:18]look unhappy or
[1:42:20]not come back or whatever.
[1:42:22]So based on my
[1:42:24]observation I don't think
[1:42:26]that if you are being
[1:42:29]raped as now he's like
[1:42:31]this prolific, I just
[1:42:33]can't imagine why you would return.
[1:42:35]It's not what you observed at the time.
[1:42:37]Not what I observed at the time.
[1:42:39]We're going to spend
[1:42:41]more time on this issue
[1:42:43]because I think it's important.
[1:42:45]But
[1:42:47]just going back to kind of the question
[1:42:49]that I started
[1:42:51]with in this area which is that
[1:42:53]it ties into the blackmail issue.
[1:42:55]So
[1:42:57]we talked about people that were his clients
[1:42:59]and you mentioned
[1:43:01]President Clinton and then early on
[1:43:05]Oh I never said he was a client.
[1:43:07]I'm saying you talk about his clients.
[1:43:09]Put his clients off the side.
[1:43:11]Then you mentioned some other people. You mentioned
[1:43:13]President Clinton. You mentioned
[1:43:15]President Trump early on.
[1:43:17]Who were other
[1:43:19]famous slash politicians?
[1:43:21]Who were other individuals
[1:43:23]in Mr Epstein's life
[1:43:25]during that time period?
[1:43:27]So the early 90s.
[1:43:29]Congressman
[1:43:31]McMillan.
[1:43:33]Henry
[1:43:35]Rizovsky
[1:43:37]who was the provost of Harvard.
[1:43:39]Hang on.
[1:43:41]Sure. You're looking at your notes.
[1:43:43]Go ahead.
[1:43:45]Joe Pagano
[1:43:47]Jerry Goldsmith
[1:43:49]Joe Roberts
[1:43:51]Kenny Lippa
[1:43:53]Dan Abramson
[1:43:55]I don't know if in the 90s
[1:43:57]Tom Pritzker
[1:43:59]Ace, Jimmy Kane
[1:44:01]Lou Ranieri
[1:44:03]What about the royal family?
[1:44:05]No. He didn't know them in the 90s.
[1:44:07]What about
[1:44:09]Prince Andrew?
[1:44:11]Didn't know him in the 90s.
[1:44:13]Oh well. Is that right?
[1:44:15]I wasn't in there. I do not know.
[1:44:19]So I don't want you to
[1:44:23]worry about exact dates. You're not positive
[1:44:25]about that but you don't have a specific
[1:44:27]recollection of that being in the 90s.
[1:44:29]I can date it for you
[1:44:31]I think.
[1:44:33]But I can't give you the dates.
[1:44:35]So with respect to
[1:44:37]We'll take a break in a minute to get some food.
[1:44:39]But just with respect to
[1:44:41]Mr.
[1:44:43]With respect to the individuals you just
[1:44:45]talked about. So again, focus on the 90s
[1:44:47]and so the people that I'm talking about right now
[1:44:49]and we might add some names later
[1:44:51]so we're talking about the clients
[1:44:53]that he worked with which you've mentioned
[1:44:55]several of and I know that that wasn't exhaustive
[1:44:57]but you've mentioned several of them
[1:44:59]and then the kind of
[1:45:01]what I called famous friends but
[1:45:03]the prominent individuals that were in his
[1:45:05]life in the 90s.
[1:45:07]Did
[1:45:09]does any stick out in your mind as having
[1:45:11]received massages?
[1:45:13]All of them. Henry Rosowski
[1:45:15]received a massage. And why do you
[1:45:17]why does that stick out in your memory?
[1:45:19]Because I
[1:45:21]saw him in a bathrobe
[1:45:23]at 71st Street and he
[1:45:25]had received a massage. He told me.
[1:45:27]Do you know whether that
[1:45:29]whether the masseuse was
[1:45:31]naked during that massage? I wouldn't have any idea.
[1:45:33]I doubted he was like in his 80s.
[1:45:35]I doubted he was like in his 80s.
[1:45:37]But do you know
[1:45:39]notwithstanding his age.
[1:45:41]Minsky.
[1:45:43]Minsky was another person.
[1:45:45]Do you know whether for example
[1:45:47]President Clinton ever received a massage?
[1:45:49]I don't believe he did.
[1:45:51]What makes you say you don't believe he did?
[1:45:53]Because I don't so
[1:45:55]that's a good question.
[1:45:57]The time
[1:45:59]that Epstein and President Clinton
[1:46:01]spent together. The only times I believe.
[1:46:03]Well obviously they travelled.
[1:46:05]They went on
[1:46:07]the plane 26 times or whatever.
[1:46:09]That would be one journey. So they
[1:46:11]spent time on the plane together and I don't believe
[1:46:13]there was ever a massage on the plane.
[1:46:15]So that would have been the only
[1:46:17]time that I think that President Clinton
[1:46:19]could have even received a massage and he
[1:46:21]didn't because I was there.
[1:46:23]And you mentioned that
[1:46:25]early in the very beginning
[1:46:27]of the conversation you mentioned President Trump
[1:46:29]in the early 90s.
[1:46:31]What did you observe
[1:46:33]as far as President Trump and
[1:46:35]his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein?
[1:46:37]Well I just
[1:46:39]want to say for my relationship
[1:46:41]with President Trump
[1:46:43]relationship is a big word but I just want to say that
[1:46:45]I met him or I believe I may have
[1:46:47]because of my father in the 90s.
[1:46:49]So my father
[1:46:51]liked him very much and
[1:46:53]he really liked his
[1:46:55]wife as well because they were both Czechoslovakian.
[1:46:57]And as far as I'm concerned
[1:46:59]President Trump was always
[1:47:01]very cordial and very
[1:47:03]kind to me and
[1:47:05]I just want to say that I find
[1:47:07]I admire his
[1:47:09]extraordinary achievement
[1:47:11]in becoming the president now
[1:47:13]and I like him
[1:47:15]and I've always liked him.
[1:47:17]So that is the sum and substance of my
[1:47:19]entire relationship with him.
[1:47:21]What about Mr. Epstein's relationship with him?
[1:47:23]I don't know how they met and I don't
[1:47:25]know how they became friends. I certainly saw them
[1:47:27]together and I remember
[1:47:29]the few times I observed them together
[1:47:31]that they were friendly.
[1:47:33]Was that in social settings
[1:47:35]or was that in private settings?
[1:47:37]I believe I only ever saw them in social settings.
[1:47:39]I don't recall any private settings.
[1:47:41]Have you ever been to
[1:47:43]Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach?
[1:47:45]I have.
[1:47:47]In what time period are you thinking about when you say yes?
[1:47:49]I don't remember when
[1:47:51]the president
[1:47:53]purchased Mar-a-Lago so from
[1:47:55]whenever it turned into a club
[1:47:57]I went there and
[1:47:59]I was
[1:48:01]loved going there.
[1:48:03]Did you go there alone or with Mr. Epstein?
[1:48:05]Mostly alone.
[1:48:07]The only times I went there was for an event
[1:48:09]maybe once or twice.
[1:48:11]Do you know whether Mr. Epstein ever went there?
[1:48:13]I believe he did but again
[1:48:15]we really
[1:48:20]he didn't
[1:48:22]take me with him
[1:48:25]all the time so he would go and
[1:48:29]he never, I never
[1:48:31]well he did from time to time but
[1:48:33]he would go alone. I think he would maybe
[1:48:35]go himself to the spa. I certainly did.
[1:48:37]Did you ever observe
[1:48:39]President Trump
[1:48:41]receive a massage? Never.
[1:48:43]Did you ever observe
[1:48:45]you said that you
[1:48:47]I mean have you seen
[1:48:49]there's photographs
[1:48:51]public photographs of
[1:48:53]Mr. Epstein and
[1:48:55]President Trump together? Yes.
[1:48:57]And there's photographs of
[1:48:59]I think you're in some of the photographs
[1:49:01]as well. Those all appear
[1:49:03]to be social settings. Yes.
[1:49:05]That's my memory if there was social
[1:49:07]settings. I don't know
[1:49:09]Epstein's, if he had whatever the
[1:49:11]nature of the president's
[1:49:15]friendship if you will or however you
[1:49:17]want to define that with Epstein I was
[1:49:19]never witness. I think they were
[1:49:21]friendly like people are in social settings.
[1:49:23]I don't think
[1:49:25]they were close friends or
[1:49:27]I certainly never witnessed
[1:49:29]the president in
[1:49:31]any of, I don't recall
[1:49:33]ever seeing him in his house
[1:49:35]for instance. I actually never saw
[1:49:37]the president in any type of massage
[1:49:39]setting. I never witnessed the president
[1:49:41]in any inappropriate
[1:49:43]setting in any way. The president was never
[1:49:45]inappropriate with anybody
[1:49:47]in the time that
[1:49:49]I was with him he was a gentleman in all
[1:49:51]respects. When's the last time you
[1:49:53]think you saw in person
[1:49:55]President Trump?
[1:50:01]It's been a long time
[1:50:03]probably not
[1:50:05]sometime in the beginning
[1:50:09]mid-2000s maybe and it would only
[1:50:11]have been a social setting as far as I
[1:50:13]recall. And did you
[1:50:15]ever hear Mr. Epstein
[1:50:17]or anybody say
[1:50:19]that President
[1:50:21]Trump had done anything inappropriate
[1:50:23]with masseuses or with anybody
[1:50:25]in your world? Absolutely
[1:50:27]never. In any
[1:50:29]context.
[1:50:31]Do you know
[1:50:33]whether masseuses from
[1:50:35]Mar-a-Lago spa
[1:50:37]ended up giving massages
[1:50:39]to
[1:50:41]private massages to Mr. Epstein?
[1:50:43]I'm not asking what you may have read
[1:50:45]but at the time from
[1:50:47]your personal knowledge do you know if that's true?
[1:50:49]I don't
[1:50:51]recall. Is it possible? Yes.
[1:50:53]But I don't remember
[1:50:55]I don't remember that.
[1:50:57]I don't recall that but it's possible.
[1:50:59]Do you have recollection of you ever
[1:51:01]recruiting a masseuse from
[1:51:03]Mar-a-Lago spa
[1:51:05]to go give a private
[1:51:07]massage to Mr. Epstein? I've never
[1:51:09]recruited a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago
[1:51:11]for that as far as I remember.
[1:51:13]I can't ever recollect it.
[1:51:15]Okay so
[1:51:17]what I think we should do now it's about
[1:51:19]12.15. We'll take a
[1:51:21]break and
[1:51:23]we will come back
[1:51:25]in a little bit. Okay.
[1:51:31]This is the afternoon test
[1:51:33]of the recording device.
[1:51:35]I see the red light blinking
[1:51:37]and we are continuing
[1:51:39]with the lunch break.
[1:51:41]Good afternoon. We are continuing
[1:51:43]the recorded proffer
[1:51:45]interview of Ms. Maxwell.
[1:51:47]The time is 12.59
[1:51:49]Thursday July 24th.
[1:51:51]Okay.
[1:51:57]So just continuing with talking about
[1:51:59]Ms. Maxwell.
[1:52:05]Still focused on the 90s time period
[1:52:07]with understanding that could spill over in the early
[1:52:09]2000s but still that part of your
[1:52:11]of your life with Mr. Epstein.
[1:52:15]There's been
[1:52:19]public reporting about
[1:52:21]conduct by Mr.
[1:52:23]Epstein and others
[1:52:25]at Little St. James. Yes.
[1:52:27]So can you talk about
[1:52:29]the frequency with which
[1:52:32]you went there
[1:52:34]and address
[1:52:36]some of those
[1:52:38]some of the reporting
[1:52:40]namely around
[1:52:42]young masseuses or young women who would be present
[1:52:44]and
[1:52:46]what you observed
[1:52:48]relating to them and then all ask
[1:52:50]questions around that.
[1:52:52]If I'm right he purchased the island
[1:52:54]in 1996 and he was
[1:52:56]friendly with the owners
[1:52:58]and originally we went
[1:53:00]to the island as guests
[1:53:02]of the owners and then
[1:53:04]I guess at some point the owners told
[1:53:06]them they wanted to sell and
[1:53:08]he decided to purchase it.
[1:53:10]So
[1:53:12]the island was very rustic.
[1:53:14]I loved it.
[1:53:16]It caused completely different
[1:53:18]ideas and
[1:53:20]I would say there was
[1:53:22]none of what you were
[1:53:24]describing at that early period
[1:53:26]of time. So the
[1:53:28]frequency was often
[1:53:30]on the island because
[1:53:34]he loved it. He really, really loved it
[1:53:36]and we
[1:53:38]would go all the time.
[1:53:40]Mostly
[1:53:42]all the early phase was
[1:53:44]based on
[1:53:46]improvements that could be made
[1:53:48]on the island, always going
[1:53:50]with new
[1:53:52]architects, new designers,
[1:53:54]new construction people.
[1:53:56]I'd say the first two years
[1:53:58]almost every
[1:54:00]trip, not everyone but
[1:54:02]almost every trip, contained
[1:54:04]an individual who
[1:54:06]would be brought on board
[1:54:08]to have an opinion
[1:54:10]as to how to
[1:54:12]I don't want to use the word improve the island
[1:54:16]because I don't think you could improve it but to
[1:54:18]I can't think what the word would be to
[1:54:26]develop it, sorry
[1:54:30]that's the word.
[1:54:32]Develop the island, that's the word.
[1:54:34]So there were trips,
[1:54:36]constant trips with that in mind.
[1:54:38]And I would say now, if we're moving
[1:54:40]to the late 90s, 96,
[1:54:42]97, I definitely witnessed
[1:54:44]a progression in Mr. Epstein's
[1:54:46]behaviour and
[1:54:50]a modification,
[1:54:52]if you will, where
[1:54:54]in the past, in the early 90s
[1:54:56]I don't remember
[1:54:58]travelling so much with other people
[1:55:00]whether it be a masseuse or a yoga person
[1:55:02]but now he started to travel with
[1:55:04]more, always
[1:55:06]a masseuse, whereas in the past it wasn't always
[1:55:08]a masseuse or always an instructor, there was now
[1:55:10]starting to be always an individual
[1:55:12]or a friend or whatever.
[1:55:14]There's always a
[1:55:16]maybe the word would be
[1:55:20]entourage.
[1:55:24]But these were always
[1:55:26]people in their
[1:55:28]20s, late 20s,
[1:55:30]early 30s in my
[1:55:32]as my memory sees it, as I
[1:55:34]as I observed that
[1:55:36]time. And
[1:55:38]he tasked
[1:55:44]me with finding local masseuses
[1:55:46]for him in
[1:55:48]St. Thomas because sometimes, even though
[1:55:50]I say he would always travel with an entourage,
[1:55:52]sometimes he didn't and he wanted to have a massage
[1:55:54]locally, so I visited
[1:55:56]the spas that were
[1:55:58]local in St. Thomas
[1:56:00]in St. Thomas and in St. John.
[1:56:02]And if I
[1:56:04]met someone, a man or a woman actually
[1:56:06]because it was difficult to find somebody
[1:56:08]in St. Thomas, it's not exactly
[1:56:10]you know, so and
[1:56:12]I did find a couple of people who would come
[1:56:14]so that's how they came.
[1:56:16]Because also it was a
[1:56:18]schlepp, so if you had somebody who came
[1:56:20]it would be, you'd
[1:56:22]have to
[1:56:24]boat ride
[1:56:26]and several hours.
[1:56:28]It wasn't just, it's not like
[1:56:30]arriving with your massage tape and stuff, so there
[1:56:32]was that. So I did
[1:56:34]that. So did, over the years
[1:56:36]males also
[1:56:38]give massages to Mr. Epstein?
[1:56:40]Yes. I did say, I don't
[1:56:42]think, at the beginning
[1:56:44]definitely, and I would say towards
[1:56:46]sort of
[1:56:48]again, late 90s,
[1:56:50]I don't remember any
[1:56:52]men, they were at the beginning I think
[1:56:54]towards the late 90s, I
[1:56:56]kind of don't think of any men, I only think of
[1:56:58]women. Did you
[1:57:00]you talk about entourage
[1:57:02]flying, right now
[1:57:04]we're talking about to the island,
[1:57:06]did you
[1:57:08]observe any sexual
[1:57:12]I was going to say misconcon, but
[1:57:14]any sex at all whatsoever
[1:57:16]on the plane?
[1:57:18]Never on the plane, never.
[1:57:20]Was there a part of
[1:57:22]the plane that was
[1:57:24]closed off from
[1:57:26]others where Mr. Epstein could
[1:57:28]go and get a massage?
[1:57:30]Okay, so that's a good question.
[1:57:32]So there were two planes.
[1:57:34]So you had, there was a Gulf Stream
[1:57:36]and that's open plan.
[1:57:38]So
[1:57:40]anything, I mean, there was
[1:57:42]a sofa that turned into
[1:57:44]a bed, and he
[1:57:48]did sleep on that. And then
[1:57:50]but in the Boeing, which he flew on
[1:57:52]the lot, there was, his area
[1:57:54]could be closed off with a door.
[1:57:56]And behind that door there would be
[1:57:58]there was a bedroom
[1:58:00]and an office. So if that door was
[1:58:02]shut, you wouldn't see it.
[1:58:04]But do you, so if you'd never
[1:58:06]but you never observed
[1:58:08]Mr. Epstein engaging in sex
[1:58:10]or getting a massage with somebody
[1:58:12]with where the masseuse was
[1:58:14]not clothed on the plane?
[1:58:16]I can't say that.
[1:58:18]I might have, I definitely might have
[1:58:20]either both in the Gulf Stream
[1:58:22]or in the
[1:58:24]I'm sure I did, but it's
[1:58:26]not, I can't.
[1:58:28]Okay.
[1:58:31]I'm absolutely sure I did. I must
[1:58:33]have because he was so obsessed
[1:58:35]with someone rubbing his feet.
[1:58:37]When you ask me about massages, I want to
[1:58:39]be clear. I generally, what
[1:58:41]I think of that is somebody on a massage
[1:58:43]table. But other
[1:58:45]people might think of it as something different.
[1:58:47]You could have someone rubbing his feet
[1:58:49]or his shoulder. I saw that all the time. That I did.
[1:58:51]But that's separate from
[1:58:53]being on a massage table.
[1:58:55]How, again I know what we're
[1:58:57]talking about a decade long period
[1:58:59]but during the period
[1:59:01]we're talking about, in a
[1:59:03]seven day week, how often would
[1:59:05]Mr. Epstein get a massage?
[1:59:07]In the 90s
[1:59:09]when we're talking, he would get one
[1:59:11]every day. I think
[1:59:13]as that time progressed
[1:59:15]he would get one maybe twice
[1:59:17]a day. I
[1:59:19]do want to say that there was
[1:59:23]maybe a reason that things
[1:59:25]altered or
[1:59:29]morphed or
[1:59:31]progressed.
[1:59:33]And
[1:59:35]it is maybe
[1:59:37]part of the reason also
[1:59:39]that I, he and I
[1:59:43]are relationship or however
[1:59:45]somebody wants to call it, altered.
[1:59:49]And he started doing
[1:59:53]testosterone.
[1:59:55]And that altered his character.
[1:59:57]And I believe that started
[1:59:59]in
[2:00:01]the late 90s.
[2:00:03]And
[2:00:05]I believe that the FBI has
[2:00:07]his medical records and you may see
[2:00:09]that on his medical records.
[2:00:11]So you believe that he
[2:00:13]started taking
[2:00:15]testosterone in the 90s.
[2:00:17]And when you say that altered his behavior
[2:00:19]you're saying it made him get
[2:00:21]more massages or that was just one part
[2:00:23]of what changed about him?
[2:00:25]Well he became more aggressive.
[2:00:27]And
[2:00:29]I think that he
[2:00:31]maybe, well
[2:00:33]now I'm just
[2:00:35]imagining that
[2:00:37]the testosterone altered his
[2:00:39]desires
[2:00:41]or something.
[2:00:43]And so
[2:00:45]so when
[2:00:47]given what you've said the past
[2:00:49]couple of hours about his
[2:00:51]kind of progression or change
[2:00:53]let's focus on that
[2:00:55]time period. So the more towards the
[2:00:57]late 90s. So 96, 97,
[2:00:59]98. When you've
[2:01:01]said that he changed.
[2:01:03]Did you know flat out
[2:01:05]that he was
[2:01:07]having sex or
[2:01:11]otherwise
[2:01:13]some sort of sexual
[2:01:15]conduct with masseuses regularly?
[2:01:17]Flat out no.
[2:01:20]I denied that. I couldn't imagine that he
[2:01:22]would. But I think looking back
[2:01:24]now that
[2:01:29]I did not.
[2:01:31]But I started to suspect that he was
[2:01:33]not faithful.
[2:01:35]Seems ludicrous.
[2:01:37]But that's what I thought.
[2:01:39]But if
[2:01:41]look if
[2:01:43]he's flying
[2:01:45]from Palm Beach to
[2:01:47]St. Thomas or if he's flying
[2:01:49]all over the country to
[2:01:51]New Mexico or to New York
[2:01:53]or even in Palm Beach
[2:01:55]and there's young women
[2:01:57]putting aside whether they're under the
[2:01:59]age of 18 or in their 20s
[2:02:01]every day at the house.
[2:02:03]Multiple masseuses.
[2:02:05]Multiple massages on Sundays.
[2:02:07]You're interacting with the masseuses
[2:02:09]constantly.
[2:02:11]Or maybe that's not right.
[2:02:13]Let me take back what I just said.
[2:02:15]But you understand that he's getting massages
[2:02:17]every day, sometimes multiple times a day.
[2:02:19]By the late 90s
[2:02:21]all women, presumably
[2:02:25]some of them are new but they're also
[2:02:27]repeat masseuses.
[2:02:29]What did you
[2:02:31]you had to know at that point that
[2:02:33]there was something going on beyond just
[2:02:35]he really needed to get massaged.
[2:02:37]Very fair question.
[2:02:39]There's two things. The first is the person that he saw
[2:02:41]most at that period of time was in her 40s
[2:02:43]and she was with him
[2:02:45]all the time.
[2:02:47]And I'm like married
[2:02:51]as well.
[2:02:54]I'm square.
[2:02:58]And it never occurred.
[2:03:00]I don't believe it occurred to me
[2:03:02]at the time that with this woman
[2:03:04]he would be having
[2:03:06]relations.
[2:03:08]That was the person he had
[2:03:10]the most massages, yoga
[2:03:12]at that time in the
[2:03:14]90s period.
[2:03:16]The second thing is that
[2:03:26]he told me he didn't
[2:03:28]he had to fully
[2:03:30]having an erection.
[2:03:32]And I believed him.
[2:03:36]When you said he said that, do you mean he regularly told you that?
[2:03:38]When I first
[2:03:40]because when I didn't have
[2:03:42]sex with him
[2:03:44]after the first time
[2:03:46]I asked him
[2:03:48]he asked me
[2:03:50]and he told me it was him.
[2:03:53]And I'd never
[2:03:57]up until this moment in my life
[2:04:01]I'm not stupid, I'm very bright.
[2:04:03]I've had an excellent education.
[2:04:05]I've traveled all over the world.
[2:04:07]I had had boyfriends.
[2:04:09]But I had never met
[2:04:13]or understood
[2:04:15]that somebody could be so
[2:04:19]would lie to me about
[2:04:21]never occurred to me.
[2:04:23]I didn't have a frame of context
[2:04:25]within my life experience
[2:04:27]where somebody would be so
[2:04:29]manipulative and devious
[2:04:31]with me.
[2:04:33]Plus I just didn't have
[2:04:37]and I was happy not to have
[2:04:41]sex because I have
[2:04:43]a condition that
[2:04:45]doesn't lend itself to that.
[2:04:47]Does
[2:04:49]when you learned, so fast forward
[2:04:51]just for a moment to the
[2:04:53]2007-8-9 time period
[2:04:55]and he's arrested and charged
[2:04:57]and there's all kinds of press around
[2:04:59]his purported contact.
[2:05:01]At that point
[2:05:03]did you
[2:05:05]at that point did you accept that
[2:05:07]that was true, meaning did it make sense
[2:05:09]at that point when you were reading about
[2:05:11]women who claimed
[2:05:13]that they had been abused even underage
[2:05:15]and at that point did you
[2:05:17]think to yourself, well geez, does that make sense
[2:05:19]now that I think about it or no?
[2:05:21]First of all, I only read
[2:05:23]what was in the newspapers. I didn't have any
[2:05:25]other thing and I'm embarrassed
[2:05:27]to say it. I didn't believe it.
[2:05:31]Right. I mean, you didn't believe
[2:05:33]that the accusations were true at the time.
[2:05:41]Sorry, I need to say, even if
[2:05:43]they were true, I believe
[2:05:45]that he was duped and he didn't know that they
[2:05:47]were whatever was in the papers
[2:05:49]at that time, whether they said that they were
[2:05:51]17 or 18.
[2:05:53]It didn't register
[2:05:55]because along with all of those
[2:05:57]well, not in 2006, but later
[2:05:59]when the
[2:06:01]more salacious
[2:06:03]and other allegations came out
[2:06:05]I knew were utterly
[2:06:07]false, which then just
[2:06:09]reinforced my belief that the rest was
[2:06:11]not true. Let me ask you a question
[2:06:13]about the age of
[2:06:15]the masseuses over the
[2:06:17]years.
[2:06:19]I think
[2:06:22]in my mind there's a difference
[2:06:24]between you knowing
[2:06:26]or not knowing
[2:06:28]that a masseuse is under the age of 18
[2:06:30]and coming to get a massage
[2:06:32]and you knowing that
[2:06:34]Mr. Epstein
[2:06:36]sexually abused
[2:06:38]the underage person or
[2:06:40]made her strip or something like
[2:06:42]that, meaning
[2:06:44]and I want to understand whether
[2:06:46]you believe that nobody
[2:06:48]that came to give massages,
[2:06:50]none of the women were under 18
[2:06:52]or that you
[2:06:54]you didn't
[2:06:56]focus on their age, but you
[2:06:58]you were more focused on
[2:07:00]whether any
[2:07:02]underage woman
[2:07:04]was abused by him.
[2:07:06]I think
[2:07:09]I think it's better to answer
[2:07:11]this question with
[2:07:13]corroborating evidence
[2:07:15]and then go back and explain so that I
[2:07:17]frame your
[2:07:19]understanding of what I'm saying.
[2:07:21]My understanding is that in
[2:07:23]2000
[2:07:25]let's say 2008
[2:07:27]they had interviewed
[2:07:29]44 women, let's say
[2:07:31]around that
[2:07:33]number. You have to understand
[2:07:35]not a single one of those
[2:07:37]44 women mentioned
[2:07:39]me in a single report
[2:07:41]and it's not because
[2:07:43]they didn't mention me in the report
[2:07:49]because they never met me
[2:07:51]they never saw me and they never
[2:07:53]interacted with me.
[2:07:55]So to go back to your question
[2:07:57]it's not that I
[2:07:59]thought one way or another
[2:08:01]it's that I didn't see them.
[2:08:03]Okay, I see, okay.
[2:08:05]Does that? Yeah, yeah, that's
[2:08:07]helpful, so
[2:08:09]When I say not one, not one
[2:08:11]single one of those reports talks about
[2:08:13]me and I just
[2:08:15]want to clarify exactly because
[2:08:17]I'm obviously aware
[2:08:19]that one of those girls was one
[2:08:21]of the witnesses in my trial
[2:08:23]specifically
[2:08:30]to use her own testimony so that you don't
[2:08:32]have to hear my
[2:08:34]point of view. It's better if it comes from
[2:08:36]her own words and that way there's
[2:08:38]no
[2:08:40]second-guessing
[2:08:42]what I'm saying.
[2:08:44]...herself said
[2:08:46]that ...recruited her
[2:08:48]...brought her
[2:08:50]and ...trained her. Those are
[2:08:52]...own words.
[2:08:54]What was I getting with this?
[2:08:58]That you didn't know.
[2:09:00]Oh yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry.
[2:09:02]It's okay, it's okay.
[2:09:04]I really do have some
[2:09:06]slow cognition issues.
[2:09:10]So she says, she testifies
[2:09:12]that it was
[2:09:14]...that recruited her and trained her
[2:09:16]and not you.
[2:09:18]So wait, so then in her
[2:09:20]first FBI
[2:09:22]meeting
[2:09:24]she reports
[2:09:26]seeing a woman with short
[2:09:28]dark hair at the house, which
[2:09:30]then is used
[2:09:32]as evidence that
[2:09:34]that person was myself.
[2:09:36]But the
[2:09:38]maid
[2:09:40]lady who helped keep the house
[2:09:42]was John Alessi's wife
[2:09:44]and with an accent.
[2:09:46]I believe she said.
[2:09:48]John Alessi's wife
[2:09:50]had short dark hair and an
[2:09:52]accent. I'm sorry
[2:09:54]but I find, and you can ask
[2:09:56]yourselves this, I mean
[2:09:58]I've obviously modified my accent. I've
[2:10:00]been in America a long time but I'm British.
[2:10:02]I've been brought up with a very strong
[2:10:04]British accent. And I don't believe
[2:10:06]there's American on planet Earth that doesn't
[2:10:08]recognise this to be British or
[2:10:10]Australian maybe, if you really don't know.
[2:10:12]But it's not some random accent.
[2:10:14]Now the Hispanic
[2:10:16]maybe, okay, that was John's
[2:10:18]wife that she saw, not me.
[2:10:20]And I'd like to point out further
[2:10:22]how you potentially her
[2:10:24]own, through her own words.
[2:10:26]She identified...
[2:10:28]Why don't we stop there and then ask the next question.
[2:10:30]So,
[2:10:32]so just, and look
[2:10:34]I wanna
[2:10:36]I wanna try to, I think
[2:10:38]probably tomorrow
[2:10:40]we'll, I wanna talk
[2:10:42]more about
[2:10:44]the evidence against you and how to
[2:10:46]address that. No, no,
[2:10:48]don't apologize. So that's
[2:10:50]helpful but I don't
[2:10:52]want you to be burdened, I
[2:10:54]want you to just tell the truth the best you can. So I don't want you
[2:10:56]to be burdened by what people said at trial
[2:10:58]or what you know the press says about you.
[2:11:00]I just thought it was illustrative when you asked the question.
[2:11:02]It was. It was.
[2:11:04]I did not.
[2:11:06]Absolutely
[2:11:08]have no memory.
[2:11:10]Now, I'm leaving
[2:11:12]separate to this obviously. So that's
[2:11:14]a separate story. I'm not going to pretend.
[2:11:16]Well, we'll come back to that.
[2:11:18]But in the terms of the
[2:11:20]scheme or whatever, however
[2:11:22]you want to determine what you're calling that,
[2:11:24]I have
[2:11:26]no
[2:11:28]memory,
[2:11:30]no active
[2:11:32]anything of
[2:11:34]having seen anybody
[2:11:36]that resembles a young
[2:11:38]child, let's call it
[2:11:40]what it is, at that house giving
[2:11:42]him a massage. At all.
[2:11:44]It's not even
[2:11:46]like I did this.
[2:11:48]It's an at all. And 44
[2:11:50]people didn't see
[2:11:52]me or talk about me either, including.
[2:11:54]Did, did
[2:11:57]and when you say that
[2:12:01]house. Oh sorry, Palm Beach.
[2:12:03]You know, I don't understand what you mean but
[2:12:05]does the same
[2:12:07]memory or lack that I've applied to
[2:12:09]on planes at
[2:12:11]New Mexico, in
[2:12:13]New York. Well, with some other
[2:12:15]important caveats. Well, on
[2:12:17]that
[2:12:19]Bajulin Jane in my
[2:12:21]trial was clearly
[2:12:23]underage, clearly a child.
[2:12:25]And I only saw her in
[2:12:27]Palm Beach. And I only
[2:12:29]saw her with her mother.
[2:12:31]The other person
[2:12:33]was clearly also not
[2:12:35]an adult or even
[2:12:37]I believe I
[2:12:39]remember her now.
[2:12:41]That would be the only
[2:12:43]two or three.
[2:12:45]So did
[2:12:50]you ever know Mr.
[2:12:52]Epstein to communicate
[2:12:54]with FBI agents
[2:12:56]either like intelligence FBI
[2:12:58]agents like as a source or
[2:13:00]just generally with FBI agents?
[2:13:02]No. Do you think if he had
[2:13:04]done that you would have
[2:13:06]known, like he would have told you something like that?
[2:13:08]Like if I said to you
[2:13:10]Mr. Epstein was a source
[2:13:12]for the FBI, would you
[2:13:14]say that's crazy
[2:13:16]no he wasn't or maybe
[2:13:18]he was, he wouldn't have told me that anyway?
[2:13:22]I have two answers for that.
[2:13:26]I think if he was for
[2:13:28]real, I
[2:13:30]think he would have bragged about it to me
[2:13:32]as a show-off because he could be a show-off.
[2:13:36]And if he wasn't
[2:13:38]he might have
[2:13:40]dropped it
[2:13:42]like he was cool.
[2:13:44]And I don't think
[2:13:48]I don't remember him doing
[2:13:50]either. Now with again
[2:13:52]the caveat that in his
[2:13:54]before I met him, finding money
[2:13:56]I think he
[2:13:58]may have suggested that
[2:14:00]there was people who helped him.
[2:14:02]But that's the only context that I recall that in.
[2:14:04]What do you mean by that?
[2:14:06]When you said finding money, what do you mean?
[2:14:08]Well his business where he
[2:14:10]remember I told you
[2:14:12]I think in that context
[2:14:14]he showed me a photograph
[2:14:16]that he had
[2:14:18]with some African
[2:14:20]warlords or something that he told me
[2:14:22]and you know
[2:14:24]I don't remember if that's
[2:14:27]what I interpreted
[2:14:29]that kind of thing or whether it was
[2:14:31]something like that. That's the only
[2:14:33]actual active memory I have
[2:14:35]of something
[2:14:37]nefarious, not nefarious
[2:14:39]I don't even know if it was nefarious but
[2:14:41]covert I suppose would be the word.
[2:14:43]And what about any other
[2:14:45]intelligence agency like
[2:14:47]the CIA or defense
[2:14:49]intelligence or any other
[2:14:51]law enforcement agency?
[2:14:53]Alright.
[2:14:59]I don't think so. I think that
[2:15:01]I don't remember anything like that. I just don't
[2:15:03]think he had the
[2:15:05]wherewithal and I think that whole
[2:15:07]aspect of that is
[2:15:12]can I use a bad word?
[2:15:14]Bullshit.
[2:15:16]And what do you
[2:15:18]you think is bullshit
[2:15:20]meaning
[2:15:22]what do you mean?
[2:15:25]Would you have known if he was
[2:15:27]would he have been bragging to you? Would he have been saying
[2:15:29]these things? I think he was because
[2:15:31]I think, I'm sorry, I think that
[2:15:35]I think one of the reasons why he liked
[2:15:37]me was because of my
[2:15:39]family connections
[2:15:41]and why he liked other
[2:15:43]people was because they
[2:15:45]were cool or whatever and I think that
[2:15:47]certainly early in
[2:15:49]when I met him he would have tried to impress
[2:15:51]me or tried to
[2:15:53]show off, if you will, like he
[2:15:55]was that guy.
[2:15:57]And he wasn't that guy.
[2:16:01]And I think
[2:16:03]that he would have tried to bullshit me
[2:16:05]and he didn't so I think it's
[2:16:07]well he may have tried to bullshit me
[2:16:09]but no, sorry.
[2:16:11]So I want to just shift for a few
[2:16:13]minutes to talk about
[2:16:15]post-2000,
[2:16:17]2000 to kind of when your relationship
[2:16:19]changed over the years with him.
[2:16:21]Did there come a time
[2:16:23]when
[2:16:25]he, Mr. Epstein, did meet members
[2:16:27]of the royal family? Yes.
[2:16:29]When was that?
[2:16:31]So I need to go back because I
[2:16:33]think I may have misspoke.
[2:16:35]I didn't misspeak but I
[2:16:37]have something that I have forgotten.
[2:16:39]Before I met Epstein
[2:16:41]he lived in London for a period of
[2:16:43]time, I don't know for how long
[2:16:45]and he met and knew some
[2:16:47]truly fancy people
[2:16:49]like people,
[2:16:53]high society people
[2:16:55]that included Princess Diana's
[2:16:57]best friend, her name was
[2:16:59]Rosa Monkton and Rosa's
[2:17:01]husband Dominic Lawson
[2:17:03]who's a famous journalist, actually he's a very
[2:17:05]well-known journalist.
[2:17:07]And when I,
[2:17:09]and he had
[2:17:13]he was friends with the Bearings, Bearings Bank
[2:17:15]and he had like
[2:17:17]sort of there.
[2:17:19]Before he met me.
[2:17:21]So in the 80s.
[2:17:23]Yes. He was dating Eva
[2:17:25]Anderson, Miss Sweden
[2:17:27]I think, I don't know when she became Miss Sweden.
[2:17:29]So earlier when you said that
[2:17:31]he met them later,
[2:17:33]you think he may have met some members of the royal
[2:17:35]family or certainly British high society?
[2:17:37]He met, I don't know about the royal family but
[2:17:39]certainly high society. And the reason why
[2:17:41]I know this is
[2:17:43]because sometime we get
[2:17:45]this is a document
[2:17:47]documental, I think documental
[2:17:49]whatever, there's a photograph
[2:17:51]that can give you the date because I don't
[2:17:53]remember what the date is of this so there's something
[2:17:55]that will peg whatever this date is
[2:17:57]I don't remember when that is.
[2:18:01]Epstein went to London without me
[2:18:04]often went everywhere without me but he was in London
[2:18:06]without me which was
[2:18:08]decently unusual because London's my hometown
[2:18:10]but anyway he went without me and he went
[2:18:12]to a big event
[2:18:14]in
[2:18:16]I think it was in the party, it was a big
[2:18:18]event, it's on the news
[2:18:20]it's like there's photographs of it
[2:18:22]and he, I don't know if he sat with Diana
[2:18:24]or he met Diana or he already met her
[2:18:26]I don't know but this I believe was
[2:18:28]organised by Rosa.
[2:18:30]And so there's, I don't know
[2:18:32]if she was being set up as a date
[2:18:34]for him maybe because
[2:18:36]I don't want to speak
[2:18:38]bad of Diana but I'm not going to
[2:18:40]So that was pre-meeting you
[2:18:42]No, that was, when that
[2:18:44]event happened when we were
[2:18:46]Oh, ok that was not right
[2:18:48]No, it's when we were, I'm not going to say together
[2:18:50]but how about this, when I was
[2:18:52]his employee.
[2:18:54]So now moving back to the
[2:18:56]2000s, there come a time
[2:18:58]when
[2:19:00]Mr Epsi met Prince Andrew?
[2:19:02]Yes. And others in the royal family
[2:19:04]or just Prince Andrew as far as you know?
[2:19:08]So
[2:19:12]as much as I can piece it together
[2:19:14]first of all, let's just state
[2:19:16]I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew
[2:19:18]I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew
[2:19:20]or to Sarah Fox
[2:19:22]that is a flat untruth
[2:19:24]start with that. So now
[2:19:26]I'm going to tell you how he did actually meet him
[2:19:28]So I
[2:19:30]If you find me that photograph
[2:19:32]I can date that time when you met Princess Diana
[2:19:34]at that event
[2:19:36]and based on that I'll be able to tell you if it's pre or post
[2:19:38]that event because I haven't looked it up
[2:19:40]and I've never bothered to check
[2:19:42]So
[2:19:44]Lynne Forrester who was a client
[2:19:46]or some type of client
[2:19:48]I think she actually tried to date him
[2:19:50]or might have dated him for the record
[2:19:54]She was
[2:19:56]in
[2:19:59]Do you want to ask me something?
[2:20:01]She had a house
[2:20:03]or she rented a house in
[2:20:05]the vineyard, I think it was in the vineyard
[2:20:07]or Nantucket, I can't remember now which one it was
[2:20:09]It was one of those. It was either Nantucket
[2:20:11]or the vineyard
[2:20:13]and invited Epstein
[2:20:17]to go
[2:20:19]and I believe
[2:20:22]that's when he met Prince Andrew
[2:20:24]however I believe that before
[2:20:26]that event he had gone
[2:20:28]to the Bahamas and had hung out
[2:20:30]with Sarah Ferguson
[2:20:32]and Sarah
[2:20:34]had called Epstein
[2:20:38]and had arranged with
[2:20:40]Lynne or I don't know
[2:20:42]I don't know now, I'm speculating, anyway
[2:20:44]long and short he met Andrew
[2:20:46]at that
[2:20:48]I'm not holding you to an exact date
[2:20:50]but when approximately was that?
[2:20:52]We can date it from that picture
[2:20:54]Without looking at a photo
[2:20:56]in your mind approximately when was that?
[2:20:58]I want to say it was
[2:21:00]2000, 2000
[2:21:02]No, probably 2001, 2002
[2:21:04]Probably 2000s
[2:21:06]I think it was actually
[2:21:10]Prince Andrew himself
[2:21:12]who suggested that he met
[2:21:14]Jeffrey Epstein through you
[2:21:16]I think that's true
[2:21:20]It's true that Andrew said that
[2:21:22]I'm sure it's true
[2:21:24]because I
[2:21:28]I'm English
[2:21:30]and my close friends are all
[2:21:32]close friends with Sarah and Andrew
[2:21:36]and I would not
[2:21:38]say that I was close friends
[2:21:40]with Andrew before
[2:21:42]but certainly we were friendly
[2:21:44]and certainly his best friends, some of them
[2:21:46]very very close with me
[2:21:48]and I think that my friendship
[2:21:52]me being present
[2:21:54]or me
[2:21:56]is what made Andrew
[2:21:58]like Jeffrey more
[2:22:00]like trust him
[2:22:02]I think that's me
[2:22:04]So you don't dispute that
[2:22:06]you kind of had a role in
[2:22:08]getting together, you're just saying
[2:22:10]you didn't say
[2:22:12]I would never have introduced them
[2:22:14]it would never have occurred to me to introduce them
[2:22:16]I couldn't imagine them being friends
[2:22:18]two chalk and cheeses would never
[2:22:20]I mean for real
[2:22:22]there's nothing there to connect them
[2:22:24]so he met Prince Andrew
[2:22:26]and then he had a really good relationship
[2:22:28]I think that word sounds funky
[2:22:30]they had a
[2:22:32]quaint ship
[2:22:34]and through Sarah actually
[2:22:36]I think Sarah is the one that pushed that
[2:22:38]and
[2:22:40]they met
[2:22:42]and hung out
[2:22:44]I want to say two or three times
[2:22:46]that had nothing to do with me
[2:22:48]I wasn't communicating with Andrew
[2:22:50]I wasn't in touch with him
[2:22:52]and I know this because I was
[2:22:54]annoyed
[2:22:58]left out
[2:23:00]and I felt
[2:23:02]that it disrespected
[2:23:04]and I was like this is weird
[2:23:06]I couldn't even imagine
[2:23:08]Epstein and Andrew together
[2:23:10]and I thought that Sarah was trying to put the moves on Jeffrey
[2:23:12]if I'm being honest
[2:23:14]and I thought the whole thing was annoying
[2:23:17]So what happened with the relationship
[2:23:19]putting aside the publicity around
[2:23:21]Prince Andrew's
[2:23:23]purported relationship with
[2:23:25]what happened
[2:23:27]as far as you know with
[2:23:29]Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein's relationship
[2:23:31]from the times you just described
[2:23:33]Okay so after that
[2:23:35]at some point
[2:23:37]Jeffrey told me
[2:23:39]Epstein told me that Andrew was coming to New York
[2:23:41]and I needed to
[2:23:43]organize the whole thing
[2:23:45]that's classic by the way
[2:23:47]classic Epstein
[2:23:49]of course if someone's like alright fine whatever
[2:23:51]and because
[2:23:53]he wanted to make sure that Andrew
[2:23:55]was taken care of
[2:23:57]and that he was comfortable he had whatever he needed
[2:23:59]and yada yada yada
[2:24:01]and I'm like well am I going to meet him
[2:24:03]or are you just going to have me do all the job
[2:24:05]and he said well you know you can come and say hello
[2:24:07]oh hi wow
[2:24:09]wow that's so nice of you for real
[2:24:11]because you have to understand
[2:24:13]like I don't know if I told you this before but I did not
[2:24:15]have the keys to say I was not allowed to go
[2:24:17]to his house unless I was
[2:24:19]summoned or told
[2:24:21]I was not allowed to answer his phones
[2:24:23]I don't know that but anyway so this
[2:24:25]we can tell this is a bit of a sore point
[2:24:27]perhaps, anyway
[2:24:29]so Andrew came
[2:24:31]and of course the minute
[2:24:33]we got together I was like
[2:24:35]yay hi
[2:24:37]and it was so nice because
[2:24:39]the
[2:24:41]the difference
[2:24:43]of being in England
[2:24:45]with Prince Andrew versus being
[2:24:47]in New York without all the bullshit
[2:24:49]was insane
[2:24:51]our friendship just like lit up
[2:24:53]like this because first of all we knew
[2:24:55]that I'm safe
[2:24:57]I mean safe as in I'm not
[2:24:59]you know the idle damsel or
[2:25:01]taking a pit
[2:25:03]not in a million years would I do
[2:25:05]something so gross and
[2:25:07]we honestly got on like a house
[2:25:09]off I really liked him a lot
[2:25:11]and he's
[2:25:13]it was so nice and we just became
[2:25:15]really really good friends
[2:25:17]much more so than when
[2:25:19]we were in London if I'm honest
[2:25:21]and then with respect to
[2:25:23]and Prince Andrew
[2:25:25]what do you know about that
[2:25:27]relationship
[2:25:29]would you like to ask that again
[2:25:31]relationship's a big word
[2:25:33]like I said I don't like the word let's just start
[2:25:35]there okay so
[2:25:37]I have read
[2:25:39]I just want to like piece
[2:25:41]together but don't say before you say what you read
[2:25:43]because that's one of the problems is that we're all
[2:25:45]kind of well informed
[2:25:47]goodbye like all the publicity
[2:25:49]and information around what everybody else has said
[2:25:51]but what do you
[2:25:53]what do you think
[2:25:55]or what did you see
[2:25:57]what did you hear what's an even bigger word than
[2:25:59]bullshit okay
[2:26:01]why well go ahead just but finish that thought
[2:26:03]why do you think that I'm going to tell
[2:26:05]you right now I'm so happy
[2:26:07]to tell you I'm like excited I'm beyond
[2:26:09]excited okay so
[2:26:13]there's going to be a mixture of what I've actually seen
[2:26:15]and know from the evidence
[2:26:17]and versus what I've put together
[2:26:19]I'm impossible for me at this point to separate
[2:26:21]everything but I'll tell you what I know
[2:26:23]versus what I saw and what I
[2:26:25]physically have in here
[2:26:27]but it's hopeful for you to know
[2:26:29]so the allegation
[2:26:33]I have to go with the allegation the allegation
[2:26:35]was that at my house in London
[2:26:37]in March whatever that was
[2:26:39]2001 I believe
[2:26:43]we went to London especially
[2:26:45]so that
[2:26:47]we could have a
[2:26:49]relationship with Prince
[2:26:51]Andrew and she was paid a vast amount of money
[2:26:53]for that purpose
[2:26:57]okay and that she then
[2:27:01]got in my bathroom
[2:27:03]in my house in London and had
[2:27:05]sex sexual relations
[2:27:07]with him and went to my guest room and had
[2:27:09]full blown sex and then
[2:27:11]left my house oh he left
[2:27:13]and she felt used and disgusted
[2:27:15]and a photograph was taken
[2:27:17]of them just before all these events
[2:27:19]took place in my study
[2:27:21]that is what is
[2:27:23]the story
[2:27:25]oh and then after that she met him several other
[2:27:27]times but we'll come to that we'll come this is where
[2:27:29]it will allegedly start and they went to
[2:27:31]tram oh right right right
[2:27:33]we went to a nightclub that night oh
[2:27:35]we went to dinner right we went to dinner
[2:27:37]and then to tram okay so
[2:27:39]the first thing about that weekend
[2:27:41]that specific weekend was it's
[2:27:43]my mum's 80th birthday and I was in the country
[2:27:47]and I have some
[2:27:49]corroborating evidence for that
[2:27:51]and a lot of testimonial that you can check
[2:27:53]so that takes care of
[2:27:55]the reason why I
[2:27:57]one of the reasons why
[2:27:59]her story doesn't hold water
[2:28:01]the second
[2:28:03]reason why
[2:28:05]so by the way when I say that my mum turned 80th
[2:28:07]that actual weekend was her birthdays
[2:28:09]on March the 11th
[2:28:11]and the reason why I went to London
[2:28:13]and I presume but this I don't
[2:28:15]remember is why when
[2:28:17]we were so the whole trip
[2:28:19]started
[2:28:21]because of Alberto Pinto
[2:28:23]who is the decorator for the island
[2:28:25]and for
[2:28:27]New York as well
[2:28:29]and
[2:28:31]he had wanted Epstein to
[2:28:33]go to see
[2:28:35]a house in
[2:28:37]Marrakesh if I remember rightly
[2:28:39]and went via
[2:28:41]the Alhambra
[2:28:43]it was also for
[2:28:45]New Mexico so there's
[2:28:47]architectural pieces
[2:28:49]and that was the basis
[2:28:51]of that trip and I suspect
[2:28:53]now
[2:28:55]that that trip was planned all around the fact
[2:28:57]that I had to be and wanted to be
[2:28:59]I was going to be in London no matter what for my mum's
[2:29:01]80th birthday at my
[2:29:03]brother's house in the country which is
[2:29:05]approximately
[2:29:07]an hour outside of London
[2:29:09]an hour and a half an hour and a half outside
[2:29:11]of London and my brother's house
[2:29:13]and we all congregated
[2:29:15]on the Saturday for
[2:29:17]her birthday
[2:29:19]celebration on the Sunday and then
[2:29:21]we left
[2:29:23]so that's that
[2:29:25]the second reason
[2:29:27]why
[2:29:29]probably
[2:29:31]maybe even the more important reason than my mum's birthday
[2:29:33]that I think it's absolute
[2:29:35]rubbish is that Prince
[2:29:37]Andrew the idea
[2:29:39]of him doing
[2:29:41]anything of that nature in
[2:29:43]my house that's the size of this
[2:29:45]room
[2:29:47]is so
[2:29:50]mind-blowingly not
[2:29:52]conceivable to me as the man
[2:29:54]or what I just can't
[2:29:56]I can't even know
[2:30:02]Is there any way that it could have happened?
[2:30:04]No
[2:30:06]Oh the physical so
[2:30:10]my house was tiny
[2:30:12]I think it's 900 square feet in total
[2:30:14]Is that right?
[2:30:16]It is on three floors
[2:30:18]however
[2:30:20]we're talking about a little
[2:30:22]it's a jewel it used to be a stable for a horse
[2:30:24]it was the stables for the big houses
[2:30:26]it was the little
[2:30:28]poor man's home behind the rich man's
[2:30:30]home
[2:30:32]it's a jewel it was a gorgeous
[2:30:34]little place but it is the size of a nut
[2:30:36]if you
[2:30:38]make a noise
[2:30:40]let's say it's a little burp or something
[2:30:42]you'd hear it
[2:30:44]it just
[2:30:48]where she says that they had relations
[2:30:50]in a bathroom
[2:30:52]first of all the bath
[2:30:54]is an old Victorian
[2:30:56]bath
[2:30:58]I'm quite small
[2:31:00]it's tight
[2:31:02]for me I put my brother
[2:31:04]in there to see what would happen
[2:31:06]it looks like a blivet which is a sausage
[2:31:08]very tight skin
[2:31:10]so her
[2:31:12]description of whatever the two people
[2:31:14]were doing in the tub that wouldn't work
[2:31:16]the bathroom itself is so small you can't
[2:31:18]lie flat on the floor so it couldn't happen
[2:31:20]on the floor because you physically
[2:31:22]can't the bathroom is too small
[2:31:24]to even be on the floor and then
[2:31:26]the kicker of all kickers
[2:31:28]is that because the bathroom was
[2:31:30]so small I decorated it to try and make it
[2:31:32]look huge which meant that I put mirrors
[2:31:34]the whole way around it and what was
[2:31:36]so fun about being in there is that if you
[2:31:38]stood in the bathroom you saw like a hundred
[2:31:40]of you like you do if you were in
[2:31:42]a fun house
[2:31:44]Alice in Wonderland or one of those things
[2:31:46]that you would see yourself going stretching
[2:31:48]and it's the image if you said you were
[2:31:50]let's say you were
[2:31:52]telling the truth
[2:31:54]she could say she was having
[2:31:56]sex with
[2:31:58]five thousand generations of the royal family
[2:32:00]because that's how far back you could see yourself
[2:32:02]there is no way in God's
[2:32:04]clean earth that had taken place that this
[2:32:06]is something that you would miss because
[2:32:08]you couldn't miss it
[2:32:10]if you were standing there now you'd see the whole of the FBI
[2:32:12]the whole of the Department of Justice
[2:32:14]standing behind you
[2:32:16]it's like no
[2:32:18]did you
[2:32:20]also explain where the tap was
[2:32:22]in the bathtub
[2:32:24]well it's an old victim
[2:32:28]and a tap
[2:32:30]so if you were in
[2:32:32]this was the tub
[2:32:34]my tap would be here
[2:32:36]I think
[2:32:40]so you think it's kind of
[2:32:42]logistically and physically
[2:32:44]not something that could have happened
[2:32:46]well there's that
[2:32:48]and there's just Andrew
[2:32:52]he's so
[2:32:59]English he's so
[2:33:02]he's had a tie on
[2:33:04]do you think there's any way it could have happened or no?
[2:33:09]absolutely
[2:33:11]on no way, no how
[2:33:13]absolutely not, wait
[2:33:15]I haven't finished
[2:33:17]go ahead
[2:33:19]go ahead
[2:33:21]finish please
[2:33:23]go ahead
[2:33:27]when all this nonsense
[2:33:29]took place where this whole story
[2:33:31]with the picture and the this and the
[2:33:33]that and this bullshit
[2:33:35]I believe
[2:33:37]that this whole thing was
[2:33:39]manufactured and I can
[2:33:42]point you to some potentially
[2:33:44]corroborating evidence of this
[2:33:46]so when she
[2:33:48]gave the photograph
[2:33:50]to the FBI in Australia
[2:33:52]just to be clear the photograph you're talking about
[2:33:54]the famous one
[2:33:56]I have an image of it
[2:33:58]holding and you're in the background
[2:34:00]the fake
[2:34:02]just to be clear
[2:34:04]so
[2:34:06]on the back of that
[2:34:08]and this is in the discovery
[2:34:10]by the way I don't know if it's in
[2:34:12]I don't know where
[2:34:14]which discovery I saw it in now but
[2:34:16]she wrote
[2:34:18]wrote in the back that it was a picture that was taken
[2:34:20]in January of 2000
[2:34:22]on 2000 or 2001
[2:34:24]I don't remember
[2:34:26]so now in her handwriting
[2:34:28]that she's giving the FBI this picture
[2:34:30]suddenly now it's March
[2:34:32]so how do you go from her writing
[2:34:34]it's January to March it's because
[2:34:36]it's the only one that fit with the
[2:34:38]flight logs
[2:34:40]that when she could be in London and this took place
[2:34:42]the second thing is that
[2:34:44]oh I'm so excited
[2:34:46]to tell you this
[2:34:48]there is a journalist
[2:34:52]I know you guys are like oh
[2:34:54]the fake news is at work here
[2:34:56]so there's a journalist called
[2:34:58]Sharon Churcher
[2:35:00]there is
[2:35:05]a lawyer called Brad Edwards
[2:35:08]these two and there is a
[2:35:10]Southern District of Florida prosecutor
[2:35:12]called Villafana
[2:35:16]I would very much
[2:35:18]look forward to showing you
[2:35:20]the relationship between
[2:35:22]these three parties
[2:35:24]that created that
[2:35:26]story
[2:35:28]put aside the relationship
[2:35:30]why do you think they
[2:35:32]created that story
[2:35:36]I believe that story was created
[2:35:38]for the purposes
[2:35:40]of
[2:35:42]well there are multiple
[2:35:44]the first one is financial
[2:35:46]the second one is
[2:35:48]for the purposes of
[2:35:50]the CVRA case
[2:35:54]the third one was
[2:35:56]for the serialization
[2:35:58]both of her book and in the papers
[2:36:00]for the story to attack
[2:36:02]the family
[2:36:06]so I think
[2:36:08]when you were just
[2:36:10]asked about the photo
[2:36:12]you said you actually thought the photo was fake
[2:36:14]do you think it was just
[2:36:16]mis-dated or do you think it's
[2:36:18]literally a fake photo
[2:36:20]I believe it's literally a fake photo
[2:36:22]why do you think that
[2:36:26]well first of all
[2:36:28]I don't remember it
[2:36:30]we'll start
[2:36:32]but the outfit I'm wearing
[2:36:34]is the outfit from my mum's
[2:36:36]birthday party
[2:36:38]so but you don't
[2:36:40]have any
[2:36:42]do you dispute that
[2:36:44]they've met each other
[2:36:47]do you know whether they've met each other
[2:36:49]I do not know that they met
[2:36:51]so you not only
[2:36:53]so you think the photograph is fake but you also are not even
[2:36:55]positive they actually ever met each other
[2:36:57]I am not
[2:36:59]so you don't have a specific recollection
[2:37:01]of kind of being at an event
[2:37:03]or a party or your apartment
[2:37:05]or your flat in London
[2:37:07]with Prince Andrew
[2:37:09]and
[2:37:11]she doesn't know one way or the other
[2:37:13]the reason why
[2:37:15]I'm not hesitant
[2:37:17]I don't have any memory of that
[2:37:19]so that's not the issue
[2:37:21]the issue is could Andrew who has come to the house
[2:37:23]to see me or see Epstein
[2:37:25]and say hi and she had been there
[2:37:27]yes I can't say that
[2:37:29]but what I can
[2:37:31]absolutely categorically
[2:37:33]say is that I never
[2:37:35]at any time
[2:37:37]said Andrew up to have
[2:37:39]relations with
[2:37:41]her or any other human being
[2:37:43]ever
[2:37:45]and I can categorically state that
[2:37:47]her characterisation
[2:37:49]of whatever may or may not have happened
[2:37:51]could physically
[2:37:53]just no
[2:37:55]and plus I was in the country
[2:37:57]so all of that's
[2:37:59]just not conceivable
[2:38:01]did you attend
[2:38:03]did you attend
[2:38:11]social parties over
[2:38:13]and again I really now am
[2:38:15]focused on 2000 plus
[2:38:17]so not the early years
[2:38:19]where
[2:38:21]Mr Epstein would host the party
[2:38:25]or be a big part of the hosting of the party
[2:38:27]and some of
[2:38:29]or many of the young women who are
[2:38:31]masseuses would be invited to the party
[2:38:33]as guests or as entertainment
[2:38:35]I certainly
[2:38:39]went to his house when
[2:38:41]he would have people who would be there
[2:38:43]that were
[2:38:45]I call them
[2:38:47]the way I would think of it
[2:38:49]and I would characterise it with his entourage
[2:38:51]that's how I thought about it
[2:38:53]and that's certainly within the later 2000s
[2:38:55]yes
[2:38:57]did
[2:38:59]did you attend
[2:39:01]any weddings
[2:39:03]of famous people
[2:39:05]with Mr Epstein
[2:39:07]again I'm mostly focused on
[2:39:09]post 2000
[2:39:11]but if there's something that comes to mind in the 90s
[2:39:13]that's fine as well
[2:39:15]weddings
[2:39:18]with Epstein
[2:39:20]I don't think I ever went to a wedding
[2:39:22]with Epstein
[2:39:24]but I can't think of a wedding that I ever went to with him
[2:39:30]do you know
[2:39:32]you didn't attend
[2:39:34]President Clinton's daughter's wedding
[2:39:36]Chelsea Clinton's
[2:39:38]no it was with Ted Wade
[2:39:40]my boyfriend
[2:39:42]with Ted Wade my boyfriend
[2:39:44]do you know whether Mr Epstein was at that wedding
[2:39:46]he was not
[2:39:48]and how did you
[2:39:50]did you have a relationship
[2:39:52]well why did you get invited to that wedding
[2:39:54]because Ted and Clinton were very close
[2:39:56]and how were you
[2:40:00]close to them what was the reason you were close to them
[2:40:02]I met
[2:40:04]President Clinton
[2:40:06]first of all I went to the White House
[2:40:08]with Epstein once
[2:40:10]for I think it was
[2:40:12]for a historical like one of those
[2:40:14]benefits and
[2:40:16]I met the president then
[2:40:18]like a thousand other people shook his hand
[2:40:20]then after that
[2:40:22]I had a
[2:40:24]very good friend of mine that was
[2:40:26]known
[2:40:28]to be the mayor of Miami Beach Philip Levine
[2:40:30]and Philip and the president
[2:40:32]were very good friends
[2:40:34]and Philip was a very
[2:40:36]and I were very good friends and so
[2:40:38]I actually
[2:40:40]was introduced to the president
[2:40:42]post his
[2:40:44]coming out of the White House
[2:40:46]and became friendly with him because
[2:40:48]of Philip Levine
[2:40:50]because of what Philip Levine
[2:40:52]there's some names
[2:40:55]that have been
[2:40:57]publicly associated with
[2:40:59]Mr
[2:41:01]Epstein that I just want to
[2:41:03]ask you if you know about
[2:41:05]Piers Morgan
[2:41:07]is friendly with who
[2:41:09]with Mr Epstein
[2:41:11]I have no idea I doubt it
[2:41:13]yeah there's no trick question I'm not
[2:41:15]suggesting that I know the answer to it
[2:41:17]I'm just asking
[2:41:19]I would be astonished I can't imagine they'd have anything
[2:41:21]in common either
[2:41:23]are you friends with Piers Morgan
[2:41:25]I've met him
[2:41:27]I've met him I met him at
[2:41:29]an event in Manhattan
[2:41:31]I can't remember
[2:41:35]more recently
[2:41:37]so probably in
[2:41:39]2012
[2:41:41]something in that
[2:41:43]and we had a very nice conversation
[2:41:45]so I remember that
[2:41:47]I remember thinking I'd never
[2:41:49]I don't remember if I'd ever met him before but I remember thinking how
[2:41:51]nice he was and how surprised
[2:41:53]so I liked him
[2:41:55]what can I tell you
[2:41:57]so that's the only memory I have
[2:41:59]I'm not sure if that's correct
[2:42:01]but that's what I think
[2:42:03]I don't have a correct or incorrect answer
[2:42:05]I just want to try and
[2:42:07]I want you to believe me
[2:42:09]because I mean this
[2:42:11]there is so much
[2:42:13]information in the public sphere
[2:42:15]about you
[2:42:17]and Mr Epstein and others
[2:42:19]around and some of it is definitely
[2:42:21]true and some of it is definitely
[2:42:23]false so when I ask a question
[2:42:25]if I think that you're not being
[2:42:27]honest or that you're missing something
[2:42:29]this isn't got you
[2:42:31]I'll say that to you
[2:42:33]did you ever meet JFK Junior?
[2:42:35]did you ever meet JFK Junior?
[2:42:37]when was that?
[2:42:41]I met him
[2:42:43]at
[2:42:45]Andrew Cuomo's wedding
[2:42:49]no
[2:42:51]Carrie's wedding
[2:42:53]who did Carrie marry? Andrew Cuomo
[2:42:55]yes sorry
[2:42:57]Andrew Cuomo's wedding
[2:42:59]when would that have been approximately?
[2:43:01]1990?
[2:43:03]1999
[2:43:05]something like that
[2:43:07]would that have been before you met Mr Epstein?
[2:43:11]yes
[2:43:16]did you have any sort of professional
[2:43:18]or social relationship with
[2:43:20]JFK Junior?
[2:43:22]I fancied him
[2:43:24]I thought he was very attractive
[2:43:26]sorry
[2:43:28]did you have any sort of
[2:43:30]social relationship with him?
[2:43:32]we knew each other
[2:43:34]I thought he was
[2:43:36]wonderful and fun and I enjoyed
[2:43:38]meeting him but
[2:43:40]we went out
[2:43:42]I wanted to say we had a dinner or two
[2:43:44]but I was very excited
[2:43:46]but that was it
[2:43:48]and then Alan Dershowitz?
[2:43:50]what's the question?
[2:43:52]with Alan?
[2:43:54]do you know Mr Dershowitz?
[2:43:56]yes
[2:43:58]do you know whether he knew Mr Epstein?
[2:44:00]do you know the nature of their relationship?
[2:44:02]I definitely do know Alan
[2:44:05]I'm just trying to remember
[2:44:07]if I knew him
[2:44:09]I'm trying to remember how I met him
[2:44:11]I met him separate from Epstein
[2:44:13]I don't remember
[2:44:15]I have no recollection
[2:44:17]I remember
[2:44:19]I know that he was
[2:44:21]Epstein's lawyer
[2:44:23]I don't know if they had any relationship
[2:44:25]prior to that
[2:44:27]I don't remember
[2:44:29]I think they met at the same
[2:44:31]Martha's Vineyard
[2:44:33]to Lynn Forrester
[2:44:35]I think that's what happened
[2:44:37]I think that's it
[2:44:39]why do you think that?
[2:44:41]because I just put it to my head
[2:44:45]you said that Mr Dershowitz
[2:44:47]was Mr Epstein's attorney
[2:44:49]do you know whether they also
[2:44:51]socialized?
[2:44:53]so my present memory
[2:44:55]of when I
[2:44:57]I have two distinct memories
[2:44:59]with Alan
[2:45:01]one is with him and his wife
[2:45:03]at the island
[2:45:05]and I actually remember that
[2:45:07]and I remember
[2:45:09]I think
[2:45:13]going to his house in Boston
[2:45:15]if he had a house in Boston
[2:45:17]that was the only two times I remember
[2:45:19]did you ever observe Mr Dershowitz
[2:45:21]doing anything inappropriate with
[2:45:23]the men around Mr Epstein?
[2:45:25]did you ever hear anybody
[2:45:27]did anybody ever tell you
[2:45:29]that he had done anything inappropriate?
[2:45:31]did you ever
[2:45:33]do you know one way or the other
[2:45:35]whether Mr Dershowitz ever got a massage
[2:45:37]at the island
[2:45:39]or any of the locations that
[2:45:41]he was at with
[2:45:43]Mr Epstein?
[2:45:45]I don't remember anything about
[2:45:47]him ever getting a massage
[2:45:49]I don't believe I ever even
[2:45:51]went to the bathroom
[2:45:53]I have no knowledge of that
[2:45:55]I'm jumping around
[2:46:02]a little bit
[2:46:04]you mentioned I think briefly
[2:46:07]the Terra Mar project
[2:46:09]what is that?
[2:46:13]I founded Terra Mar
[2:46:15]in
[2:46:18]the idea of Terra Mar came I think in 2010
[2:46:20]so
[2:46:22]I want to just
[2:46:24]explain Terra Mar a little bit
[2:46:26]Ted and I
[2:46:32]bought a boat
[2:46:38]well Ted bought the boat
[2:46:40]and
[2:46:42]the basis of the boat was
[2:46:44]to do explorations
[2:46:46]and
[2:46:48]sea
[2:46:50]exploratory stuff
[2:46:52]this really started because I have
[2:46:54]and have had since I was a child
[2:46:56]a love of
[2:46:58]the ocean and everything
[2:47:00]aquatic and
[2:47:02]I
[2:47:04]I've always been
[2:47:09]I'm just
[2:47:13]nervous about the state of the ocean
[2:47:15]Ted and I we work with
[2:47:17]National Geographic
[2:47:19]and we did exploratory
[2:47:21]work and the most exciting
[2:47:23]we did many exciting things but one of
[2:47:25]the most fabulous ones that we did was
[2:47:27]we looked for Amelia Earhart
[2:47:29]twice added two expeditions
[2:47:31]to look for Amelia Earhart
[2:47:33]as an example
[2:47:35]of an exploration
[2:47:37]that we did
[2:47:39]and
[2:47:41]he had a foundation for the ocean
[2:47:43]and we
[2:47:45]worked with Nat Geo
[2:47:47]we worked with Woods Hole
[2:47:51]we did amazing things
[2:47:53]we bought
[2:47:55]he bought the Remus 6000 so when the plane
[2:47:57]went missing the plane that went
[2:47:59]to Air France from
[2:48:01]Brazil to Paris
[2:48:03]and went down was the Remus 6000
[2:48:05]that found that plane
[2:48:07]one of those deep sea under exploratory
[2:48:09]anyway when I broke up with Ted
[2:48:11]I just
[2:48:13]one of the things I did not want to give up
[2:48:15]was
[2:48:17]my love of the ocean and everything
[2:48:19]that we did in Terramar
[2:48:21]the genesis of Terramar came from that
[2:48:23]so Terramar obviously means land, sea
[2:48:25]and the story of the ocean is that
[2:48:27]earth really
[2:48:30]shouldn't be called earth it should be called ocean
[2:48:32]because three quarters is the ocean
[2:48:34]and
[2:48:36]so I wanted
[2:48:38]to not clash with anything
[2:48:40]to do with Ted because
[2:48:42]it was a bit awkward between us and so
[2:48:44]he took all the part of the ocean
[2:48:46]that was close to land
[2:48:48]within 200 miles and so I decided
[2:48:50]I would focus on all the part of the ocean
[2:48:52]that was outside of national borders
[2:48:54]Terramar and that's how
[2:48:56]that's the genesis of Terramar
[2:48:58]What was the time period of that?
[2:49:00]I think after I
[2:49:02]broke up with Ted so 2010-11
[2:49:04]is when it started
[2:49:06]and then I ran it all the way up until
[2:49:08]whenever
[2:49:10]the Epstein drama struck
[2:49:12]and then I just shut it down
[2:49:14]I shut it down because I didn't want
[2:49:16]what was happening
[2:49:18]to hurt any
[2:49:20]the Smithsonian or Nat Geo
[2:49:22]or the
[2:49:24]I just couldn't let everything
[2:49:26]be hurt by what was happening
[2:49:28]to me
[2:49:30]Do you know
[2:49:32]Jean-Luc Bernal?
[2:49:34]How do you know him?
[2:49:36]I met him
[2:49:38]when I told you I was working for the
[2:49:40]European for my dad
[2:49:42]back in like early 90s
[2:49:44]and I was
[2:49:46]running a
[2:49:48]magazine
[2:49:50]one of the things in the magazine is fashion
[2:49:52]and so
[2:49:54]I was going to
[2:49:56]some fashion shows and I was looking for
[2:49:58]fashion sponsorship
[2:50:00]and in fact when I came to America
[2:50:02]one of the first sponsors
[2:50:04]that I got for it was
[2:50:06]Ron Pellman at Revlon
[2:50:08]who was great
[2:50:10]and I
[2:50:12]met Jean-Luc
[2:50:14]through just
[2:50:16]in Paris like that
[2:50:18]but socially not
[2:50:20]Did Mr
[2:50:22]Epstein know him as well? Did you later learn
[2:50:24]whether they knew each other?
[2:50:26]I don't
[2:50:28]Epstein had his own fashion situation
[2:50:30]so he would have
[2:50:32]he didn't meet Jean-Luc through me
[2:50:34]Did you ever observe them together over the years?
[2:50:36]Absolutely yeah I saw them many times
[2:50:38]together
[2:50:40]Did he
[2:50:42]visit the island?
[2:50:44]Yes
[2:50:46]He went everywhere I saw him in every
[2:50:48]place
[2:50:50]Do you ever observe him
[2:50:52]getting a massage?
[2:50:54]Or do you ever know what they got a massage
[2:50:56]maybe you didn't observe it personally?
[2:51:00]You don't remember?
[2:51:02]I don't I mean
[2:51:04]I have no conscious memory of Jean-Luc
[2:51:06]I would imagine
[2:51:08]that he did but I never
[2:51:10]How about Mr. Weinstein
[2:51:14]Harvey Weinstein?
[2:51:16]What would you like to know?
[2:51:18]Do you know him? Yes
[2:51:20]How do you know him?
[2:51:22]I guess when I say how do you know him
[2:51:24]is it a relation you had
[2:51:26]separate from Mr. Epstein or
[2:51:28]did you meet him through Mr. Epstein
[2:51:30]or
[2:51:32]I wouldn't say I had any type of
[2:51:34]relationship with Harvey Weinstein
[2:51:36]in any context
[2:51:38]Socially I would meet him because I would go
[2:51:40]to events that Harvey would be at
[2:51:42]and also his wife was English
[2:51:44]Georgina
[2:51:46]and so I was friendly also
[2:51:48]would be a big word more requien
[2:51:50]so we would see each other and I would go to
[2:51:52]Miramax
[2:51:54]There was a couple of people
[2:51:56]who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with
[2:51:58]his primary producer
[2:52:00]his name is
[2:52:02]Meryl Poster
[2:52:04]who I was friendly with
[2:52:09]Do you know whether Mr. Epstein
[2:52:11]had his own relationship with Mr. Weinstein?
[2:52:13]He did
[2:52:15]Did they socialize
[2:52:17]together at the island
[2:52:19]or in Palm Beach or New Mexico?
[2:52:21]I never saw Harvey at any of Epstein's houses
[2:52:23]I don't know that they were friends
[2:52:25]I mean I can't see them together either
[2:52:27]I mean literally
[2:52:29]but I know
[2:52:31]that they certainly do that
[2:52:33]I would imagine
[2:52:35]and in fact I think I have a memory
[2:52:37]but I can't
[2:52:39]that when Harvey was trying
[2:52:41]to raise money for
[2:52:43]whatever his business was called
[2:52:45]I can't remember what his business was called
[2:52:47]Maybe he went there
[2:52:49]because Epstein was good at raising money
[2:52:51]I just don't know
[2:52:53]but I never saw them
[2:52:55]I don't recall seeing Harvey
[2:52:57]in any of the properties
[2:53:01]Let's go a few more minutes and take a break
[2:53:03]after lunch
[2:53:05]We talked
[2:53:07]several hours ago about your father
[2:53:09]and his business a little bit
[2:53:11]After your father passed
[2:53:13]do you know whether Mr. Epstein
[2:53:15]was involved in
[2:53:17]your family business
[2:53:19]that you know of?
[2:53:21]Absolutely not
[2:53:23]First of all there was no family business left
[2:53:25]to start with that problem
[2:53:27]and the second one is
[2:53:32]my family didn't like him
[2:53:34]very much
[2:53:36]and they were busy dealing with their own problems
[2:53:38]and there was no relationship whatsoever
[2:53:40]My mum and he
[2:53:42]got along quite well
[2:53:44]She's an old lady
[2:53:46]He was nice to her
[2:53:49]We're now
[2:53:51]being a little repetitive
[2:53:53]You're confident that
[2:53:55]before you met Mr. Epstein
[2:53:57]he didn't know your father
[2:53:59]and so there's no
[2:54:01]he wouldn't have done business
[2:54:03]with your father's companies
[2:54:05]in the 80s either
[2:54:07]Absolutely
[2:54:09]I'm 100% sure of that
[2:54:11]I never met him, I never saw him
[2:54:13]I never heard his name
[2:54:15]Nothing
[2:54:17]There's been
[2:54:19]a lot of conversations
[2:54:21]about whether Mr. Epstein
[2:54:23]maintained a list of people
[2:54:25]like a book of
[2:54:29]famous people that he knew
[2:54:33]It's called a black book
[2:54:35]or a client list
[2:54:37]Did you know of the existence
[2:54:39]of any such list?
[2:54:43]There is no list
[2:54:45]We'll start with that
[2:54:47]The genesis of that story
[2:54:49]I can actually trace for you
[2:54:51]an absolute inception
[2:54:53]if that is what you're interested in
[2:54:55]First
[2:54:57]to be sure
[2:54:59]there is no list, there is no client list
[2:55:01]Nothing like that
[2:55:03]You know
[2:55:05]You say you think you know the genesis
[2:55:07]Go ahead, tell us
[2:55:12]I'd like you to know that I have brought
[2:55:14]some supporting corroborative evidence
[2:55:16]Tell me what it is too
[2:55:20]Do you want to take a break here?
[2:55:22]Is this a long story?
[2:55:24]Let's take a break
[2:55:26]Alright, the time is
[2:55:28]2.03 and we're going to take a break
[2:55:30]right now
[2:55:33]Alright, we're resuming the recorded
[2:55:38]proffer of Ms. Maxwell
[2:55:40]It is 2.16
[2:55:42]on Thursday, July
[2:55:44]24th and the recording device
[2:55:46]is now on
[2:55:48]So when we
[2:55:50]stopped to take a break
[2:55:52]we were talking about
[2:55:54]what has been publicly discussed
[2:55:56]as
[2:55:58]a black book or the Epstein
[2:56:00]list
[2:56:02]and that's where we are
[2:56:04]So you said you think you might
[2:56:06]know or that you're aware of kind of
[2:56:08]the origin of
[2:56:10]this narrative
[2:56:12]I just want to reiterate again
[2:56:14]there is no list
[2:56:16]that I am aware of
[2:56:18]at any time at least during the period of time
[2:56:20]when I was present
[2:56:22]The origin
[2:56:35]of this
[2:56:37]story
[2:56:39]I believe
[2:56:41]begins
[2:56:43]or it has a
[2:56:45]beginning in 2009
[2:56:47]and then it has a prequel
[2:56:49]that we have to start in 2009
[2:56:51]In 2009
[2:56:55]there is
[2:56:57]Epstein is
[2:57:00]I think out of jail
[2:57:02]and
[2:57:06]there are civil suits
[2:57:08]taking place
[2:57:10]Many of these
[2:57:12]are coming out
[2:57:14]of a disgraced
[2:57:16]law firm, Rothstein
[2:57:18]Rosenfelt
[2:57:20]and Adler
[2:57:26]At that law firm
[2:57:28]is a
[2:57:30]lawyer who started
[2:57:32]there in
[2:57:34]April, May 2009
[2:57:36]called Brad Edwards
[2:57:38]In 2009
[2:57:46]allegedly
[2:57:50]the FBI
[2:57:52]gets a call
[2:57:54]in October of 2009
[2:57:58]from
[2:58:00]Brad Edwards
[2:58:02]He allegedly
[2:58:04]tells them
[2:58:06]that he has come across
[2:58:08]a piece of
[2:58:10]evidence
[2:58:14]that belongs to Epstein
[2:58:18]that contains a list
[2:58:20]of all
[2:58:22]of his clients
[2:58:24]and
[2:58:26]victims
[2:58:28]underage girls
[2:58:30]massage therapists
[2:58:34]and the
[2:58:36]men who are having sex with them
[2:58:38]and he becomes
[2:58:42]Brad Edwards becomes a
[2:58:44]cooperating witness
[2:58:46]cooperating
[2:58:48]confidential informant
[2:58:50]for them
[2:58:52]and in a sting operation
[2:58:56]obtains
[2:58:58]the list
[2:59:00]from a former
[2:59:02]butler of Epstein's
[2:59:04]called Alfredo Rodriguez
[2:59:06]and it becomes
[2:59:09]evidence
[2:59:11]in the civil suit
[2:59:13]In the
[2:59:20]Alfredo Rodriguez
[2:59:22]is subsequently
[2:59:24]prosecuted for
[2:59:28]having an AK-47
[2:59:30]or something weird, some guns or something
[2:59:32]and goes
[2:59:34]to trial and there's a criminal complaint
[2:59:36]that the FBI produced
[2:59:38]and in that criminal complaint
[2:59:40]it says that
[2:59:42]Brad Edwards became aware
[2:59:44]of
[2:59:46]the list, we'll call it the list
[2:59:48]for the purposes of this
[2:59:52]After Alfredo Rodriguez's
[2:59:54]two depositions
[2:59:56]that are held
[2:59:58]in
[3:00:00]Epstein's civil suit
[3:00:02]it's in
[3:00:05]the FBI's affidavit
[3:00:07]that the evidence was collected
[3:00:09]and Brad Edwards became aware
[3:00:11]after the second deposition
[3:00:13]it's in the criminal complaint
[3:00:15]The truth is
[3:00:22]different from
[3:00:24]what's in both the
[3:00:26]criminal complaint and in that FBI
[3:00:28]affidavit
[3:00:30]and in Brad Edwards's
[3:00:32]own statements on the subject
[3:00:34]The truth is that
[3:00:36]Alfredo Rodriguez was deposed
[3:00:38]twice, once in July
[3:00:40]and once in August
[3:00:42]and in
[3:00:44]the July deposition
[3:00:46]told Brad Edwards
[3:00:48]that he had
[3:00:50]handwritten notes or
[3:00:52]a journal, whatever
[3:00:54]in the deposition
[3:00:56]and Brad Edwards replies, well we're going to come back
[3:00:58]for a second deposition
[3:01:00]and the second deposition takes place
[3:01:02]in August
[3:01:07]What this means is that Brad Edwards
[3:01:09]had access to the
[3:01:11]list
[3:01:13]from
[3:01:15]sometime between July and August
[3:01:17]until when he actually called
[3:01:19]the FBI in October
[3:01:21]so we're talking
[3:01:23]six months or so
[3:01:25]Rostein's firm
[3:01:33]was raided
[3:01:35]a few days
[3:01:37]after the list
[3:01:39]went into the FBI's
[3:01:41]hands
[3:01:43]and subsequently Rostein
[3:01:45]himself was prosecuted
[3:01:47]for RICO and I believe went to jail
[3:01:49]for 50 years
[3:01:51]As part of that RICO case
[3:01:53]he admitted to
[3:01:55]on the record and was
[3:01:57]I don't know whether he was prosecuted for creating
[3:01:59]fake settlements
[3:02:01]and fake evidence in
[3:02:03]Epstein's
[3:02:11]In
[3:02:13]2009
[3:02:15]simultaneously
[3:02:17]whilst this was going on
[3:02:21]my
[3:02:23]boyfriend, Ted Waite
[3:02:25]was asked for
[3:02:27]10 million dollars to keep me out of any
[3:02:29]of Epstein's
[3:02:31]civil suits
[3:02:33]Up until then
[3:02:35]I had not been in any
[3:02:37]of Epstein's civil suits in fact
[3:02:39]to even sure
[3:02:41]say for the first time I was mentioned
[3:02:43]was by
[3:02:45]I hadn't been, I was basically
[3:02:47]nowhere
[3:02:51]and then Ted was called
[3:02:53]for this 10 million dollars and had been
[3:02:55]shown, his people had
[3:02:57]been shown
[3:03:00]evidence that included
[3:03:02]the list
[3:03:05]the flight logs
[3:03:07]and various other pieces of
[3:03:09]evidence. Now we're going to the prequel
[3:03:14]part of this story so then it can
[3:03:16]tie to how this starts
[3:03:18]In
[3:03:23]2007
[3:03:26]Epstein signs the non-prosecution
[3:03:28]agreement. He then
[3:03:32]fights the non-prosecution agreement
[3:03:34]or debates it through the DOJ
[3:03:36]or whatever happened there
[3:03:38]and is
[3:03:40]goes to the court in 2008
[3:03:42]when
[3:03:44]it's accepted or whatever
[3:03:46]Vilafana
[3:03:50]was the lead prosecutor
[3:03:52]or the lead, yes
[3:03:54]in that case and
[3:03:56]she
[3:03:58]I think was not happy
[3:04:01]with the
[3:04:03]outcome and
[3:04:06]utilized
[3:04:10]at that time Brad Edwards
[3:04:12]to
[3:04:16]file the
[3:04:18]CVRA case. Now
[3:04:22]what is
[3:04:28]what I have managed to understand
[3:04:30]from this is within the OPR
[3:04:32]itself there is evidence
[3:04:34]that it says that Brad Edwards
[3:04:36]was the only lawyer that she was allowed to
[3:04:38]talk to so I just want to preface that
[3:04:42]The reason why
[3:04:44]I know that she
[3:04:46]went behind
[3:04:49]Acosta's back
[3:04:51]and everything
[3:04:53]else to do this is because
[3:04:55]Brad Edwards
[3:04:57]in a podcast made
[3:04:59]the revelation
[3:05:01]what he says is that
[3:05:03]he'd never heard of the CVRA case
[3:05:05]before and Vilafana called him
[3:05:07]and told him to
[3:05:09]file it. The sole
[3:05:11]purpose of the CVRA
[3:05:13]was to overturn
[3:05:15]the non-prosecution agreement
[3:05:19]so what I believe is
[3:05:21]that Vilafana worked with
[3:05:23]Brad Edwards who she had also
[3:05:25]been, he was the lawyer that she had
[3:05:27]selected as a pro bono
[3:05:29]lawyer for some of the victims
[3:05:33]and he was also working
[3:05:35]for Rothstein's firm
[3:05:37]that was under RICO investigation
[3:05:39]for that entire time
[3:05:41]creating fake evidence in Epstein's case
[3:05:45]and she had just filed
[3:05:47]hidden secret
[3:05:50]using Edwards to overturn
[3:05:52]the NPA by filing
[3:05:54]the non-prosecution of this CVRA case
[3:05:56]that's sole purpose was to overturn it
[3:05:58]and so when he
[3:06:00]approached her with
[3:06:02]the list
[3:06:04]this was part of
[3:06:06]the effort to
[3:06:08]utilise and find new evidence
[3:06:10]to support the overturning
[3:06:12]either of the NPA
[3:06:14]and or the new case against Epstein
[3:06:16]because Brad Edwards
[3:06:21]or I don't know if it was Brad Edwards
[3:06:23]because Rothstein's firm
[3:06:25]asked my then boyfriend for
[3:06:27]10 million dollars to kick me out
[3:06:29]of suits that I had no knowledge of
[3:06:31]at that time whatsoever
[3:06:33]I now know that the base of this story
[3:06:35]was a blackmail
[3:06:37]of a billionaire
[3:06:39]because Ted Wade was a multi-billionaire
[3:06:43]he had everything, he was
[3:06:45]way, way more wealthy than
[3:06:47]Epstein if anyone
[3:06:52]and that is the reason why Ted and I broke up
[3:06:54]was the basis of it
[3:07:00]and that list was created
[3:07:02]so then the
[3:07:04]masseuses that were on that list
[3:07:06]I had never heard of some of them
[3:07:08]I
[3:07:10]not even from the
[3:07:12]civil suits that had come up
[3:07:14]since I've seen it, this is me now knowing
[3:07:16]what's in the list today
[3:07:18]and I believe that
[3:07:20]oh
[3:07:22]Alfredo Rodriguez
[3:07:24]so there's a metamorphosis
[3:07:26]of this list so the original
[3:07:28]statement that Brad Edwards makes
[3:07:30]that's in the documents contemporaneously
[3:07:32]is that it's pieces of paper
[3:07:34]that Alfredo has
[3:07:36]it then morphs into
[3:07:38]something that Alfredo
[3:07:40]took
[3:07:42]a book that Alfredo took from
[3:07:44]Epstein's computer but there's no
[3:07:46]computer I know, certainly not in
[3:07:48]2005 when this was
[3:07:50]allegedly taken that came
[3:07:52]out as a book and then it morphed
[3:07:54]into at the civil time
[3:07:56]my civil cases into
[3:07:58]a book that was taken from my computer
[3:08:00]and then it morphed into the Southern District
[3:08:02]of New York as a combination
[3:08:04]list of mine and
[3:08:06]Epstein's that is
[3:08:08]a metamorphosis
[3:08:10]through documents
[3:08:12]that you can trace
[3:08:14]so the
[3:08:21]in your mind
[3:08:23]from what you just described
[3:08:25]there is a list
[3:08:27]it's just
[3:08:29]manufactured
[3:08:33]have you seen the list
[3:08:35]even fake or do you know?
[3:08:37]I haven't seen it but
[3:08:39]I guess my thing is that
[3:08:41]what Brad Edwards says in all of these things
[3:08:43]is in the paperwork and what not
[3:08:45]and then
[3:08:47]all this story is basically controlled
[3:08:49]by five people there's
[3:08:51]four alleged victims that speak about
[3:08:53]the list and the blackmail and the men
[3:08:55]and the sex and what not
[3:08:57]and the lawyers
[3:08:59]and now the prosecutors sorry
[3:09:01]the Southern District of New York for sure
[3:09:03]but no one else
[3:09:05]none of these stories carry from
[3:09:07]any of the 44 alleged
[3:09:09]original victims they never ever say
[3:09:11]that they were farmed out to anybody
[3:09:13]but the list itself
[3:09:15]where is it?
[3:09:17]there is no list but
[3:09:19]Brad Edwards said that
[3:09:21]he created the list
[3:09:23]so in that book
[3:09:25]that Alfredo Rodriguez
[3:09:27]produced that became evidence
[3:09:29]exhibit 52 in my trial
[3:09:31]have markings all over it
[3:09:33]circles and dots and what not
[3:09:35]and
[3:09:37]Brad Edwards says
[3:09:39]that he got Alfredo Rodriguez
[3:09:41]to mark up the book of
[3:09:43]all the people who were involved
[3:09:45]it includes Alan Dershowitz
[3:09:47]for the record who's marked
[3:09:49]I don't remember what it does with Donald Trump
[3:09:51]I don't know you'd have to look
[3:09:53]I don't have it
[3:09:55]but
[3:09:59]I believe
[3:10:01]I don't know who
[3:10:03]somebody marked up that book of names
[3:10:05]and I think all the names of the people
[3:10:07]that they went for
[3:10:09]were originally selected between
[3:10:11]two sources one was this
[3:10:13]alleged book of names
[3:10:15]and one was also from
[3:10:17]the telephone logs that were collected
[3:10:19]from the house in Palm Beach
[3:10:21]and just to finish it off
[3:10:23]there is
[3:10:25]a note
[3:10:27]I have some papers for you
[3:10:29]where
[3:10:31]Brad Edwards says that he has
[3:10:33]a list of 25 men
[3:10:35]that he got money off
[3:10:39]so the list
[3:10:41]that everybody
[3:10:43]the black book the list
[3:10:45]what you're saying is that
[3:10:47]your exhibit 52 from your trial
[3:10:49]which is
[3:10:51]more of an address book
[3:10:53]a Rolodex type thing
[3:10:55]that Mr Rodriguez
[3:10:57]Alfredo Rodriguez
[3:10:59]somewhere along the way he went through
[3:11:01]and kind of marked that list
[3:11:03]I don't know where that book actually comes from
[3:11:05]I don't know what that book is
[3:11:07]that book is some type of a compilation
[3:11:09]but what it is
[3:11:11]is it's just pieces of paper
[3:11:13]with type so if you had
[3:11:15]you could have made a list
[3:11:17]I could put
[3:11:19]but you're referring to
[3:11:21]something that's been public for a long time
[3:11:23]if we're thinking about the same thing
[3:11:25]you're talking about the
[3:11:27]a bunch of different types of paper
[3:11:29]or whatever
[3:11:31]I only have a copy of it
[3:11:33]with big parts of it redacted
[3:11:35]publicly because of people's addresses
[3:11:37]that's what I'm talking about
[3:11:39]so it
[3:11:41]oh perfect yes
[3:11:43]we're looking at exhibit 52
[3:11:45]so you're looking at exhibit 52
[3:11:47]so
[3:11:49]the one they produced
[3:11:51]the Southern District of New York actually produced a book
[3:11:53]for me to see
[3:11:55]that's the actual thing it was
[3:11:57]and I
[3:11:59]it has marks, it has tabs
[3:12:01]it has names I've never seen
[3:12:03]it had like that list
[3:12:05]that list was
[3:12:07]basically
[3:12:09]the names that they choose to produce at trial
[3:12:11]now in
[3:12:13]Rosteen Adler's firm
[3:12:15]I also have some documents where
[3:12:17]Rosteen
[3:12:19]his original scheme
[3:12:21]at Rosteen Adler
[3:12:23]was to place prostitutes
[3:12:25]he had a bar
[3:12:27]a dance bar
[3:12:29]where he had girls
[3:12:31]and I believe he would use them
[3:12:33]and put them as fake secretaries
[3:12:35]in people's offices
[3:12:37]and then she might touch him or he might touch her
[3:12:39]or something and boom he got $25,000
[3:12:41]for that
[3:12:43]and those girls
[3:12:45]I'm not saying that those are the girls
[3:12:47]that came in Rosteen's case
[3:12:49]necessarily
[3:12:51]so
[3:12:55]but again
[3:12:57]what's like
[3:12:59]separating the evidence
[3:13:01]that came in at your trial
[3:13:05]and what you just talked about
[3:13:07]with Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez
[3:13:11]during the time
[3:13:13]that you were with Mr. Epstein
[3:13:15]and even in the 2000s
[3:13:17]when you were around less frequently
[3:13:19]you never
[3:13:21]observed
[3:13:23]or you never saw
[3:13:25]any sort of list or black book
[3:13:27]or a list of individuals who
[3:13:31]linked to certain
[3:13:33]masseuses or anything like that
[3:13:35]absolutely no
[3:13:37]there is no list
[3:13:39]there is no
[3:13:41]I'm not aware of any
[3:13:43]blackmail
[3:13:45]I never heard
[3:13:47]I never saw it and I never
[3:13:49]I never imagined it
[3:13:53]while we're on
[3:13:55]this topic
[3:13:57]and again I know we're jumping around
[3:13:59]we've been going at it for a while so I apologize
[3:14:01]but there's recently been
[3:14:03]reports about a birthday book
[3:14:05]that you assembled
[3:14:07]for Mr. Epstein I think for his
[3:14:09]50th birthday in 2003
[3:14:11]that's true
[3:14:13]what do you know about that
[3:14:15]so
[3:14:21]my mum did a birthday book for my father
[3:14:23]at his 60th
[3:14:25]and when I
[3:14:27]Epstein would talk about
[3:14:29]his 50th he said I don't know what I'm going to do
[3:14:31]and I said well that's a nice thing
[3:14:33]my mum did this book for my dad
[3:14:35]he said I love that idea
[3:14:37]he said
[3:14:39]can you help coordinate it
[3:14:41]and he organized
[3:14:43]who
[3:14:45]he called a lot of the people himself
[3:14:47]so I coordinated
[3:14:49]the putting together of the book
[3:14:51]and in some instances I called
[3:14:53]people that asked them to contribute
[3:14:55]what was in the book what was the ask of the
[3:14:57]people you called
[3:14:59]it's his 50th birthday
[3:15:01]say anything you want on a piece of paper
[3:15:03]I mean nothing more from him
[3:15:05]it was an obvious question but you basically
[3:15:07]his folks were invited
[3:15:09]to send something to you
[3:15:11]to celebrate his birthday
[3:15:13]to say happy birthday
[3:15:15]have a wonderful day
[3:15:17]or something else
[3:15:19]there was no ask
[3:15:21]I wasn't responsible for everybody
[3:15:23]in that book and there were people that he would
[3:15:25]ask himself
[3:15:27]to contribute
[3:15:29]do you remember specific
[3:15:31]names of individuals who did
[3:15:33]send letters or who did contribute
[3:15:35]it's been
[3:15:40]so long I want to tell you
[3:15:42]I don't remember
[3:15:44]I honestly don't remember
[3:15:46]the article talks about
[3:15:48]several names
[3:15:50]but including the folks of the article
[3:15:52]which is on Donald Trump
[3:15:54]do you remember President Trump submitting
[3:15:56]a letter or a card
[3:15:58]or a note
[3:16:00]do you think
[3:16:02]the articles
[3:16:04]do you remember seeing
[3:16:08]that book
[3:16:10]or any portion of the letters
[3:16:12]in your discovery in New York
[3:16:14]yes
[3:16:16]I remember
[3:16:18]there was
[3:16:22]there were some portions of that book
[3:16:24]but what surprised me
[3:16:26]yeah
[3:16:28]what surprised me was
[3:16:30]how few there were
[3:16:32]because I thought if you had those
[3:16:34]where are the rest
[3:16:36]there was none of Mr Trump
[3:16:38]in your discovery
[3:16:40]in my discovery sorry President Trump
[3:16:42]there was nothing from President Trump
[3:16:44]do you remember
[3:16:47]do you remember one way or the other
[3:16:49]whether President Trump submitted a letter
[3:16:51]for his 50th birthday
[3:16:53]I do not remember
[3:16:55]and the article that references the letter
[3:16:57]talks about
[3:17:00]like either
[3:17:02]a picture of a naked woman or something like that
[3:17:04]do you have any recollection of that
[3:17:06]I do not
[3:17:08]no I don't
[3:17:10]do you remember
[3:17:14]so what do you
[3:17:16]remember seeing from your discovery
[3:17:18]from the book
[3:17:20]portions of it
[3:17:22]I remember
[3:17:24]there were maybe
[3:17:28]I just want to say about the discovery
[3:17:30]I had about
[3:17:32]maybe this is an exaggeration
[3:17:34]I am not sure but in my mind
[3:17:36]it is about close to 5 million documents
[3:17:38]it was a lot
[3:17:40]and of that giant
[3:17:42]document dump that I received
[3:17:44]I was only
[3:17:46]maybe as much as
[3:17:48]30 to 35%
[3:17:50]I was never able to access
[3:17:52]and this is documented at the court
[3:17:54]and
[3:17:56]so I cannot
[3:17:58]say that I saw everything because I didn't
[3:18:00]I just want you to know that
[3:18:02]and I think that was by design
[3:18:04]but you
[3:18:06]do remember
[3:18:08]seeing some pages
[3:18:10]do you remember what
[3:18:12]pages you saw
[3:18:14]who had written those
[3:18:16]letters or no?
[3:18:18]I really don't remember
[3:18:20]I am sorry
[3:18:22]did you
[3:18:24]and or
[3:18:26]the same questions we have asked about some other individuals
[3:18:28]did you have
[3:18:30]did you meet Bill Gates over the years
[3:18:32]yes
[3:18:34]because of your relationship with Mr. Epstein or separate
[3:18:36]that one
[3:18:38]I met Mr. Gates
[3:18:40]I went to the TED conference
[3:18:42]and I actually spoke at the TED conference
[3:18:44]not the main stage
[3:18:46]the sub stage
[3:18:48]and I also gave several TED exes
[3:18:50]and I met him there but we weren't friendly
[3:18:52]and I actually did meet him
[3:18:56]because I knew his
[3:18:58]I don't know if he was chief of staff
[3:19:00]or whoever, Boris
[3:19:02]and I met him
[3:19:04]I think once
[3:19:06]I may have met him actually at 71st street
[3:19:08]I may have
[3:19:10]once
[3:19:12]I met him there or at a restaurant
[3:19:14]and that would have been
[3:19:16]because of Epstein
[3:19:18]because Epstein was friendly with Boris
[3:19:20]but that's all I remember
[3:19:22]do you know whether Mr. Gates
[3:19:24]traveled with Mr. Epstein
[3:19:26]on his plane to any of his houses
[3:19:28]so if that friendship
[3:19:30]was after
[3:19:32]it was in the late 2000s
[3:19:34]so if I met him
[3:19:36]like I said I went to Epstein's house maybe once or twice
[3:19:38]maybe I met him there I don't remember
[3:19:40]so I wouldn't know if he had been on Epstein's plane
[3:19:42]and you don't recall him
[3:19:44]playing with him flying to the island
[3:19:46]or to anywhere? No
[3:19:53]Do you know someone named Reed Hoffman?
[3:19:55]I do. Who's that?
[3:19:57]Reed's a Silicon Valley guy
[3:19:59]Silicon Valley
[3:20:01]and how do you know him?
[3:20:03]Through my friends in San Francisco
[3:20:05]I used to have a very close friend
[3:20:07]who was in San Francisco
[3:20:09]who was part of that whole
[3:20:11]or had
[3:20:13]So is that a relationship you have kind of separate
[3:20:15]and apart from Mr. Epstein?
[3:20:17]Separate
[3:20:19]Do you know whether Mr. Epstein
[3:20:21]had a relationship with Reed Hoffman?
[3:20:23]I don't know
[3:20:25]Did you ever observe Mr. Hoffman
[3:20:27]flying anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein
[3:20:29]or giving massages?
[3:20:31]No
[3:20:33]So there was
[3:20:48]a list
[3:20:50]of multiple
[3:20:52]massages that
[3:20:54]is floating around. I think you had a new discovery
[3:20:56]I think you were just talking about that
[3:21:00]That list
[3:21:02]Do you know how that list was created?
[3:21:04]No
[3:21:06]All that stuff that came out of that
[3:21:08]book
[3:21:10]I now find suspect
[3:21:12]It's part of the story you just told us?
[3:21:14]Yes. Now I'm not saying it's all fake
[3:21:16]I don't know what's real and what's not
[3:21:18]I don't know what name is true
[3:21:20]Now that it's been to my mind anyway
[3:21:22]and without a doubt
[3:21:24]contaminated and possibly
[3:21:26]fraudulent
[3:21:28]I don't know
[3:21:30]I mean obviously the numbers that I recognize
[3:21:32]on my own, those are real
[3:21:34]but how it was actually ended up
[3:21:36]put together and compiled
[3:21:38]and the purposes for it, for which then
[3:21:40]the blackmailed my boyfriend
[3:21:42]Now I'm just...
[3:21:44]Over the years when you were
[3:21:46]serving as like the general manager
[3:21:48]so the mid 90s
[3:21:50]all the way into the 2000s
[3:21:52]Did you or do you know whether anyone
[3:21:54]maintained a list of all the masseuses?
[3:21:56]Like a running list?
[3:21:58]So there's
[3:22:00]two things, well three ways
[3:22:02]I know that the house
[3:22:04]itself
[3:22:06]John Alessi
[3:22:08]had a Rolodex
[3:22:10]that he kept the names and numbers
[3:22:12]of all the people
[3:22:14]that came to the house so that he could call
[3:22:16]So because
[3:22:18]I only was with Epstein
[3:22:20]even at best, half the time
[3:22:22]so when I was
[3:22:24]there he had like his
[3:22:26]chief of staff who could find
[3:22:28]whatever he needed and when I wasn't there he had
[3:22:30]to rely on somebody else, right? So be that
[3:22:32]John Alessi or whoever else
[3:22:34]So everybody
[3:22:36]whoever was traveling with him or
[3:22:38]however he was he needed somebody else
[3:22:40]to access information so
[3:22:42]he had an assistant
[3:22:44]chief who
[3:22:46]was his secretary who would be the one
[3:22:48]that would update his computer
[3:22:50]Like everybody
[3:22:52]has an address book
[3:22:54]But was
[3:22:56]what you're describing
[3:22:58]which makes sense
[3:23:00]Was that a list
[3:23:02]of masseuses or
[3:23:04]a list of people that
[3:23:06]might need to be contacted
[3:23:08]which would necessarily include a lot of masseuses
[3:23:10]That's the latter
[3:23:12]And did
[3:23:17]you
[3:23:19]update that? Like were you
[3:23:21]one of the people that would add names to it?
[3:23:23]Like if a masseuse came
[3:23:25]and leaves and
[3:23:27]Mr. Epstein says yes she was good
[3:23:29]How was the list kind of maintained?
[3:23:31]Or who maintained it?
[3:23:33]Typically no, because
[3:23:35]there would be an assistant
[3:23:37]who would do that, plus
[3:23:39]Epstein would not allow me to answer the telephone
[3:23:41]ever
[3:23:43]So he'll maintain
[3:23:45]or keep any of his messages
[3:23:47]in the office or at the house
[3:23:49]So typically
[3:23:51]that wouldn't be, because I wouldn't
[3:23:53]be the one. Could I say to you I never
[3:23:55]did that? No, of course not, because
[3:23:57]that just seems ludicrous
[3:23:59]But as a rule of thumb
[3:24:01]the answer would be
[3:24:03]no
[3:24:05]During the
[3:24:07]2007-89
[3:24:09]investigation
[3:24:11]out of the South District of Florida
[3:24:13]So you said that you weren't
[3:24:15]contacted by law enforcement
[3:24:17]After Mr. Epstein was
[3:24:19]charged, did you have conversations
[3:24:21]with him about the investigation?
[3:24:23]He never talked to me about it
[3:24:25]Did you
[3:24:29]I mean I can't
[3:24:31]Let's put it this way
[3:24:33]If he did, I have no recollection of it
[3:24:35]I mean I'm sure he must have said
[3:24:37]this is all whatever he said or it's nothing
[3:24:39]I mean I just don't have
[3:24:41]any
[3:24:45]memory. I was with Ted
[3:24:47]I was like gone
[3:24:49]Plus
[3:24:51]I just didn't want to know
[3:24:53]either, I suppose
[3:24:55]So you don't know first-hand
[3:24:57]why the U.S. Attorney
[3:24:59]in Florida made the deal
[3:25:01]that he did? Meaning you weren't
[3:25:03]part of that discussion along the way
[3:25:05]Mr. Epstein didn't say
[3:25:07]I'm getting a good deal
[3:25:09]or something's happening
[3:25:11]with the case that's very good
[3:25:13]To the extent you know anything about it
[3:25:15]it's just from what you've heard
[3:25:17]or read from others, not from Mr. Epstein
[3:25:19]Is that right?
[3:25:21]He never talked about the non-prosecution directly with me
[3:25:23]But he did
[3:25:25]But it's still enforceable
[3:25:27]as to her
[3:25:29]I mean he never said
[3:25:31]Hey, are you happy with this deal?
[3:25:33]Like that
[3:25:35]But I understood
[3:25:37]He never
[3:25:39]He never enjoined me
[3:25:41]to the MPA
[3:25:43]But I understand that he
[3:25:45]included me specifically
[3:25:47]and I'll tell you why
[3:25:49]It's okay, you don't need to get into that
[3:25:51]I don't want to talk about the legal
[3:25:53]what's on appeal
[3:25:55]I'm just
[3:25:57]The reason for my question
[3:25:59]I'm not trying to hide something
[3:26:01]There's a very strong belief
[3:26:03]that he got a
[3:26:05]very good deal
[3:26:07]and that he should
[3:26:09]have been sentenced to
[3:26:11]more time or got a different
[3:26:13]sentence from the Feds than a non-prosecution
[3:26:15]agreement and I'm not asking you
[3:26:17]to opine on that, but I'm wondering
[3:26:19]whether
[3:26:21]he ever talked to you about that
[3:26:23]but it sounds like he didn't
[3:26:25]That he got a good deal? No
[3:26:27]I think actually
[3:26:29]Well, his comments that I've read
[3:26:31]was that he didn't get a good deal
[3:26:33]and I think that when he fought it so hard
[3:26:35]it's because he didn't think he did
[3:26:37]Serving his sentence
[3:26:39]Were you around during that time
[3:26:41]when he was allowed to leave during the day
[3:26:43]or travel during the day?
[3:26:45]I never called him
[3:26:47]I never saw him and I never went to the jail
[3:26:53]So I'm going to ask you questions
[3:26:55]that you shouldn't read into them
[3:26:57]I just want to know whether
[3:26:59]they resonate with you
[3:27:01]Have you ever had any contact
[3:27:03]with any
[3:27:05]representative that you know of from
[3:27:07]Mossad
[3:27:09]The Israeli Intelligence Agency
[3:27:11]Can you ask me that again?
[3:27:13]Have you had any contact with
[3:27:15]an individual that you understand to be
[3:27:17]from Mossad, an Israeli intelligence agency
[3:27:19]Well, not deliberately
[3:27:21]Pardon me? Not deliberately
[3:27:25]We talked about this a little bit earlier
[3:27:27]just to put a finer point on it
[3:27:29]Did you ever know that
[3:27:31]were you ever told
[3:27:33]that Mr Epstein was getting any
[3:27:35]money from any intelligence agency
[3:27:37]including Mossad?
[3:27:41]I don't believe so, but I wouldn't know
[3:27:43]I mean, I would be
[3:27:45]very surprised if he did, I don't think so
[3:27:47]No
[3:27:53]We've talked about a lot of names
[3:27:55]and I'm sure there's some that we haven't covered
[3:27:57]Are there any foreign nationals
[3:27:59]So right now we've talked about
[3:28:03]some British
[3:28:05]the Royal Family a little bit
[3:28:07]and maybe high society folks in Britain
[3:28:09]Were there any international
[3:28:13]businessmen or politicians
[3:28:15]that had a very close relationship
[3:28:17]or a close relationship with Mr Epstein
[3:28:19]that we haven't already talked about?
[3:28:21]Off the top of my head
[3:28:26]I can think of Ehud Barak
[3:28:34]You said that Mr Epstein
[3:28:36]at some point in the mid
[3:28:38]to late 90s, he started taking testosterone
[3:28:40]Did you ever know him to take any
[3:28:42]other drugs?
[3:28:46]I mean, he took pills
[3:28:48]for his heart, I think
[3:28:50]but I don't
[3:28:52]know other, no substances
[3:28:54]Do you know anything
[3:28:56]about his heart condition?
[3:28:58]I know we talked about this at 9.45 this morning
[3:29:00]Do you know anything about his
[3:29:02]heart condition beyond that you understood
[3:29:04]he had a heart condition that affected his ability
[3:29:06]to have sex?
[3:29:08]Other than what he told me
[3:29:10]No, he never shared anything
[3:29:12]but he did take pills
[3:29:14]I don't know anything about that
[3:29:16]and like I said, he did the testosterone
[3:29:18]which made him mean
[3:29:22]And we're jumping around a little bit
[3:29:24]Do you know
[3:29:26]someone named Donald Barr?
[3:29:28]No
[3:29:30]He is, I can represent to you
[3:29:32]was the former headmaster
[3:29:34]of the Dalton School
[3:29:36]which you mentioned earlier
[3:29:38]Do you remember any conversations
[3:29:40]with Mr Epstein about
[3:29:42]a book that Mr Barr wrote
[3:29:44]called Space Relations?
[3:29:46]I've never heard of that
[3:29:48]About aliens and sex?
[3:29:53]Do you know whether
[3:29:56]Well, have you ever met the former attorney general
[3:29:58]of the United States, Bill Barr?
[3:30:00]No
[3:30:02]Do you remember whether Mr Epstein knew him
[3:30:04]or whether his name ever came up
[3:30:06]in conversations you had with Mr Epstein?
[3:30:08]I don't, I don't recall
[3:30:10]any
[3:30:17]Did you have a relationship
[3:30:19]I'm using relationship
[3:30:21]but I appreciate you don't like that word
[3:30:23]Did you know
[3:30:25]Mr Epstein's
[3:30:27]brother
[3:30:29]Mark Epstein?
[3:30:31]Yes
[3:30:33]Through Jeffrey
[3:30:35]How would you describe your relationship?
[3:30:37]Close, friendly?
[3:30:39]My personal?
[3:30:41]Not that close
[3:30:43]but friendly enough
[3:30:45]I mean, you know
[3:30:47]How was
[3:30:49]Jeffrey Epstein's relationship
[3:30:51]with his brother Mark from what you observed?
[3:30:53]I mean, they weren't brotherly
[3:30:55]but I think
[3:30:59]I don't know
[3:31:04]they had periods when they were closer
[3:31:06]and then when they weren't
[3:31:08]I think sometimes
[3:31:10]Epstein found his brother
[3:31:12]irritating
[3:31:14]And I think
[3:31:18]I know the answer is given what you just said about
[3:31:20]Bill Barr
[3:31:22]but did you ever hear any
[3:31:24]from Mr Epstein
[3:31:26]or anybody else that
[3:31:28]Bill Barr had any role in
[3:31:30]Mr Epstein getting a good
[3:31:32]plea deal in Florida
[3:31:34]or any role in that process
[3:31:36]with Mr Acosta?
[3:31:38]I never heard that
[3:31:42]I think you said this
[3:31:44]in an interview but if I'm wrong
[3:31:46]forgive me
[3:31:48]Do you have a view
[3:31:50]of Mr Epstein
[3:31:52]of whether he
[3:31:54]committed suicide
[3:31:56]or whether something else happened?
[3:31:58]Can we take a break?
[3:32:04]Yeah, sure
[3:32:06]Actually it's a good time to take a break anyway
[3:32:08]because we don't last more than a day
[3:32:10]Alright, so we're going to take a break
[3:32:12]at 2.53
[3:32:14]Thursday, July 24th
[3:32:16]We are continuing with
[3:32:18]the recorded proffer of
[3:32:20]Ms Maxwell
[3:32:22]The time is now 3.10pm
[3:32:24]Thursday, July 24th
[3:32:26]My colleagues alerted me
[3:32:31]to a couple of questions I think I may have forgotten
[3:32:33]to ask you
[3:32:35]One is
[3:32:37]Well, we talked a few minutes
[3:32:46]ago about this birthday book that there's been press
[3:32:48]about. I understand you don't
[3:32:50]remember anything with President Trump
[3:32:52]or a lot about the book anyway
[3:32:54]Do you remember asking
[3:32:56]President
[3:32:58]Trump to submit a letter for that?
[3:33:00]I do not
[3:33:02]And do you
[3:33:04]remember
[3:33:06]would you
[3:33:08]have been the one to do that or would somebody else
[3:33:10]have done that?
[3:33:12]I did ask
[3:33:16]some people. I don't remember Mr Trump
[3:33:18]I don't remember who I did ask but Epstein
[3:33:20]also asked people himself directly
[3:33:22]So it could
[3:33:24]have happened that way if it happened at all
[3:33:26]Where is that?
[3:33:39]You mentioned Ehud Barak
[3:33:41]Yes
[3:33:43]What was his involvement?
[3:33:45]This would have been
[3:33:47]in the later
[3:33:49]2000s
[3:33:51]I do not know
[3:33:53]how they met
[3:33:55]but I do know
[3:33:57]that they
[3:33:59]I don't know if friendly would be the right word
[3:34:01]I don't know that but I know that they
[3:34:03]saw each other and
[3:34:05]my father
[3:34:10]anything that touches Israel
[3:34:12]or the state of Israel
[3:34:14]I am always interested in because
[3:34:16]my father loved Israel
[3:34:18]and so I
[3:34:20]pay attention to it
[3:34:22]and we have ties to Israel
[3:34:24]Ties meaning
[3:34:26]friends and family, relations
[3:34:28]The prominent
[3:34:30]was Mr Barak
[3:34:32]Do you know what the nature
[3:34:34]of his relationship was with Mr Epstein?
[3:34:36]I don't
[3:34:38]Do you know
[3:34:40]were you ever with them together?
[3:34:42]I think I met
[3:34:44]I have a memory of
[3:34:46]meeting Ehud
[3:34:48]but I don't know if he was with Epstein
[3:34:50]I don't remember, I just know that I did see him
[3:34:52]and I am struggling to remember
[3:34:54]the context around it
[3:34:56]but if I
[3:34:58]I am sure it happened but it must have been very brief
[3:35:00]because I don't have any serious
[3:35:02]memory of it
[3:35:04]any deep memory of it
[3:35:06]Maybe this is obvious
[3:35:08]Maybe it comes also because I have read it in the press
[3:35:10]maybe something that brought it to my memory
[3:35:12]so that is also
[3:35:14]I think the press has been very contaminating
[3:35:16]so it is hard sometimes
[3:35:18]to separate those stories
[3:35:20]from your memory
[3:35:22]sometimes
[3:35:24]Do you know
[3:35:26]a British gymnast by the name of Heather Mann?
[3:35:28]Yes
[3:35:30]Did she
[3:35:32]I didn't know she was a gymnast
[3:35:34]I am reading something that says she was a gymnast
[3:35:36]Please don't assume that
[3:35:38]that is correct
[3:35:40]based upon my words
[3:35:42]Did she ever travel with you
[3:35:44]and or Mr. Epstein?
[3:35:46]I think she met
[3:35:48]one of Mr. Epstein's girlfriends
[3:35:50]at some point
[3:35:52]I know we are talking about time periods
[3:35:54]that are vast
[3:35:56]What time period would that have been?
[3:35:59]Like after you
[3:36:01]since 2000?
[3:36:03]Could be the 90s
[3:36:08]I don't know
[3:36:10]There are people that pop out of the woodwork
[3:36:12]all the time
[3:36:14]I just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend
[3:36:16]in 93 and 94
[3:36:18]He obviously was very busy
[3:36:24]Where is she flying?
[3:36:26]Did
[3:36:28]someone named Mark Middleton
[3:36:30]Yes
[3:36:32]He was in the
[3:36:34]Mr. Clinton's administration
[3:36:36]President Clinton's administration I think
[3:36:38]Do you know him?
[3:36:40]Well I met him
[3:36:42]I met him through Mr. Epstein
[3:36:44]Was he
[3:36:46]from what you observed
[3:36:48]was he a friend
[3:36:50]or business acquaintance of Mr. Epstein?
[3:36:52]I only saw him
[3:36:57]a handful of times
[3:36:59]but I did see him with him
[3:37:01]and he seemed friendly
[3:37:03]I don't know if I would characterize
[3:37:05]I've only seen him briefly
[3:37:07]I don't know how to characterize that
[3:37:09]Do you know whether he flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein?
[3:37:11]Did he visit the island?
[3:37:13]Do you know anything about their relationship as it relates to that?
[3:37:15]I don't have any recollection
[3:37:17]of seeing Mark Middleton at the island
[3:37:21]How about former US Senator George Mitchell?
[3:37:23]Yes I do remember George
[3:37:25]What do you remember about him?
[3:37:27]I traveled with him
[3:37:29]We went to
[3:37:31]the most memorable place
[3:37:33]I was friendly with his wife
[3:37:35]I'll start with that, with Heather
[3:37:37]and Heather was in New York
[3:37:39]so I hung out with her a few times
[3:37:41]we had dinners
[3:37:43]I was just friendly I would say
[3:37:45]separately from her husband
[3:37:47]I was friends with Heather
[3:37:49]I met Heather through her husband
[3:37:51]but we became friends
[3:37:53]You became friends with Heather
[3:37:55]Was Mr. Epstein friends with Mr. Mitchell?
[3:37:57]Yes
[3:37:59]Did they travel together
[3:38:01]That's New York, did they travel to the island
[3:38:03]or to New Mexico?
[3:38:05]I don't remember George ever at the island
[3:38:07]but the most memorable trip I do recall
[3:38:09]with Senator was to Italy
[3:38:11]To where?
[3:38:13]To Italy
[3:38:15]We went to Rome
[3:38:17]The four of you?
[3:38:19]So Heather and Mr. Mitchell and you and Mr. Epstein?
[3:38:21]That's my recollection
[3:38:23]What were you there for?
[3:38:25]The most memorable aspect
[3:38:27]of that trip was going to the Vatican
[3:38:29]It was extraordinary
[3:38:31]The most extraordinary thing was going
[3:38:33]to the archives
[3:38:35]and holding Henry VIII's
[3:38:37]document to the Pope
[3:38:39]asking his divorce
[3:38:41]Do you know
[3:38:47]the former President of Columbia, Andres Pastrana?
[3:38:49]Yes
[3:38:51]How do you know him?
[3:38:57]I met Andres Pastrana in a pub in Dublin
[3:39:02]Did he
[3:39:04]travel with Mr. Epstein that you know?
[3:39:06]I don't know
[3:39:12]I don't know if he ever
[3:39:16]was ever on the plane
[3:39:18]I don't think he ever came to the island
[3:39:20]but
[3:39:22]I went
[3:39:24]two places
[3:39:26]with
[3:39:28]Andres Pastrana
[3:39:30]One was to Columbia and Epstein came to that
[3:39:32]and the other was to Cuba
[3:39:34]and Epstein was there and Pastrana
[3:39:36]I think was there
[3:39:38]What were the purposes of traveling
[3:39:40]to Columbia than Cuba?
[3:39:42]I'm a helicopter pilot
[3:39:53]and
[3:39:55]Andres
[3:39:57]is a helicopter pilot
[3:39:59]and
[3:40:02]we just became friends
[3:40:04]and I flew
[3:40:06]a Black Hawk in Columbia
[3:40:10]And how about to Cuba?
[3:40:12]I have
[3:40:14]a friend of mine who
[3:40:16]was the
[3:40:18]cigar distributor
[3:40:20]for Monte Christmas maybe
[3:40:24]I can't remember which cigar it was
[3:40:26]and
[3:40:28]something like that
[3:40:30]and he organized the trip and
[3:40:32]we met
[3:40:34]When was that approximately?
[3:40:36]It had to be
[3:40:44]2002-2003
[3:40:55]Something like that I think
[3:40:57]There's some more names that we might
[3:40:59]talk about tomorrow
[3:41:01]with the same type of questions
[3:41:03]But as far as a catch-all
[3:41:05]there's been
[3:41:07]a tremendous amount of
[3:41:09]public information
[3:41:11]about all kinds of names
[3:41:13]including some of the folks we talked about today
[3:41:15]and their relationship
[3:41:17]with Mr. Epstein
[3:41:19]and or you
[3:41:21]For any of the folks that we've talked about today
[3:41:23]did you
[3:41:25]observe
[3:41:27]them doing anything
[3:41:29]improper with Mr. Epstein
[3:41:31]with Missouces or with women
[3:41:33]or girls who were traveling
[3:41:35]or at the residence that they were at
[3:41:37]or at the parties that they were at
[3:41:39]I did not ever at any time see that
[3:41:43]And for any
[3:41:45]of the names we've talked about today
[3:41:47]and then tomorrow we'll talk about some more
[3:41:49]but for today
[3:41:51]do you recall having any conversations
[3:41:53]with anybody else
[3:41:55]or they reported to you that they had seen something
[3:41:57]that one of these individuals had done
[3:41:59]someone else that works with Mr. Epstein
[3:42:01]or somebody that observed something
[3:42:03]If anybody had
[3:42:05]ever reported anything, but first of all the answer
[3:42:07]that is no, and also I just want to be clear
[3:42:09]that had anybody ever reported anything
[3:42:11]illegal or
[3:42:13]disgusting like that
[3:42:15]I would have immediately
[3:42:17]done something
[3:42:19]and I never heard it, I never saw it
[3:42:21]and no one ever ever ever complained to me
[3:42:23]or tears, nothing like that
[3:42:25]Alright, so we took a break
[3:42:27]We took a break when we were talking about
[3:42:29]Mr. Epstein and his death
[3:42:40]So, Mr. Epstein
[3:42:42]and his
[3:42:44]death
[3:42:46]So, you were not
[3:42:48]obviously at the MCC
[3:42:50]during that time, correct?
[3:42:52]Thank you
[3:42:54]Thank you
[3:42:58]Just take some water, it's okay
[3:43:00]No problem
[3:43:02]You were not at the MCC
[3:43:04]during that time, correct?
[3:43:06]I was not
[3:43:08]So, you're going to tell us
[3:43:10]what you believe
[3:43:12]but I just want to make sure I understand
[3:43:14]your basis for belief
[3:43:16]is kind of what you've
[3:43:18]read and seen and your knowledge
[3:43:20]of Mr. Epstein for the many years
[3:43:22]you knew him, right?
[3:43:24]Actually, there's a third component
[3:43:26]The answer to that is yes
[3:43:28]and there's a third component
[3:43:30]which is having
[3:43:32]experience now
[3:43:34]the mismanagement
[3:43:37]and inefficiencies
[3:43:39]and total dereliction
[3:43:41]of duty at the
[3:43:43]Bureau of Prisons
[3:43:45]Okay, fair
[3:43:47]So, you know
[3:43:49]what I do want to be careful about
[3:43:51]is
[3:43:53]asking you to speculate
[3:43:56]because
[3:43:58]anybody can do that
[3:44:00]and I don't think that's fair to you
[3:44:02]or anybody else to ask you to give us your kind of opinion
[3:44:04]but
[3:44:06]do you think
[3:44:08]that the third point you say
[3:44:10]which is kind of a failure
[3:44:12]by the BOP, there's been a lot of
[3:44:14]there's an OIG report
[3:44:16]there's an SDNY investigation
[3:44:18]about that
[3:44:20]So you think he was
[3:44:22]he did not die by suicide
[3:44:24]given all the things we just talked about
[3:44:26]I do not believe he died by suicide
[3:44:28]And do you believe that
[3:44:32]do you have any speculation
[3:44:34]or view of who killed him?
[3:44:36]No, I don't
[3:44:38]And I ask that because
[3:44:40]if you don't believe that
[3:44:44]there's any truth to the allegations
[3:44:46]of blackmail or
[3:44:48]that he had
[3:44:50]kind of a list or that he had reasons
[3:44:52]to
[3:44:54]have people hate him
[3:44:56]why would somebody
[3:44:58]kill him in prison?
[3:45:00]In prison
[3:45:06]where I am
[3:45:08]they will kill you
[3:45:12]or they will pay
[3:45:14]somebody can pay a prisoner
[3:45:16]to kill you
[3:45:18]for
[3:45:23]$25 worth of commissary
[3:45:25]is about the going rate
[3:45:27]for a hit with a lock
[3:45:29]today
[3:45:31]So that goes to the third reason
[3:45:33]which is kind of the
[3:45:35]mismanagement
[3:45:37]or the short fallings or short comings
[3:45:39]of the Bureau of Prisons
[3:45:43]which is a little bit different from my question
[3:45:45]which is
[3:45:49]do you think there's somebody on the outside
[3:45:51]of prison, so putting aside
[3:45:53]what could happen on the inside
[3:45:55]on the outside of prison who would
[3:45:57]who wanted him dead so badly that he would have
[3:45:59]caused him to be killed on the inside
[3:46:01]I think that's
[3:46:03]I don't see that
[3:46:05]I think
[3:46:07]is it possible? Of course it's possible
[3:46:09]but I don't know of any reason why
[3:46:11]and I don't believe in the blackmail or
[3:46:13]in any of this
[3:46:15]I don't think Epstein had a hit
[3:46:17]If it is indeed murder
[3:46:19]I believe it was an internal situation
[3:46:23]Yeah, so you don't have any
[3:46:25]reason, first hand knowledge
[3:46:27]or even speculation it sounds like, to think that
[3:46:31]that he was
[3:46:33]killed to kind of
[3:46:35]silence him or to keep him from going public
[3:46:37]about people he knew about
[3:46:39]I don't, no, because I
[3:46:41]I think that is
[3:46:43]just part of the
[3:46:45]story that's been created
[3:46:47]that started back in 2008
[3:46:49]2009
[3:46:51]Yeah, I mean that's the point
[3:46:55]I don't think there's value in
[3:46:57]talking
[3:46:59]there's been a lot of information about
[3:47:01]what happened in the MCC
[3:47:03]but what is important to me
[3:47:05]is whether
[3:47:09]is the idea that
[3:47:11]he didn't die by suicide
[3:47:13]that's one thing but
[3:47:15]to the extent that folks believe
[3:47:17]that he was murdered
[3:47:19]to keep him quiet or because he
[3:47:21]had information on rich
[3:47:23]and powerful people, that's what I
[3:47:25]I don't have any reason to believe that that's true
[3:47:27]I do not, I have any reason to believe
[3:47:29]that and I also think it's
[3:47:31]ludicrous, because if that
[3:47:33]I also happen to think if that is what
[3:47:35]they wanted, they would have had plenty of opportunity
[3:47:37]when he wasn't in jail
[3:47:39]if he were worried about
[3:47:41]blackmail or anything from him
[3:47:43]he would have been a very easy target
[3:47:45]In the time
[3:47:49]so we've talked about
[3:47:51]a lot of time all the way up through
[3:47:53]2009-10 and then
[3:47:55]the time that after
[3:47:57]when was the last time you spoke
[3:47:59]with him?
[3:48:11]Maybe
[3:48:13]2016, 2017
[3:48:15]maybe 2016
[3:48:17]2015, 2016, 2017
[3:48:19]in that area I believe
[3:48:21]and what, when you're
[3:48:23]thinking about that last time
[3:48:25]was that you had been talking about a lot
[3:48:27]and then you stopped or was that
[3:48:29]a one off time and it was infrequent
[3:48:31]I really wasn't in communication
[3:48:33]The only communications I had with him was
[3:48:35]with regards to the civil
[3:48:37]suits, the civil suit that I found myself in
[3:48:39]the defamation suit I found myself in
[3:48:41]I needed help, I needed
[3:48:43]information and
[3:48:45]I didn't have
[3:48:47]what I needed
[3:48:49]and so
[3:48:52]that was really what
[3:48:54]what drove it was me trying to
[3:48:56]get myself out of
[3:48:58]this situation, which I
[3:49:00]ultimately led to where I am today
[3:49:02]and so when
[3:49:04]when all that, when that
[3:49:06]I don't remember even if I stopped talking
[3:49:08]to him before that I think he wasn't
[3:49:10]I thought he was angry with me anyway
[3:49:12]he didn't like what I did and he
[3:49:14]wasn't interested in what he had to say to me
[3:49:16]What did you think
[3:49:18]he was angry with you about?
[3:49:20]I think he was angry that I had even said that
[3:49:22]I had referred
[3:49:24]to her being a liar
[3:49:26]he said I should have not said anything
[3:49:28]When
[3:49:34]the civil suits that were
[3:49:36]ongoing before
[3:49:38]Mr. Epstein's death
[3:49:40]Did your
[3:49:42]lawyers coordinate
[3:49:44]with his lawyers like in discovery
[3:49:46]and things like that?
[3:49:48]I don't think we coordinated in this
[3:49:50]I'm not sure
[3:49:52]I don't want to misspeak
[3:49:54]There was some degree
[3:49:56]of communication
[3:49:58]for sure
[3:50:00]I just don't know the degree
[3:50:02]that that took place
[3:50:05]so definitely
[3:50:07]I was definitely hoping
[3:50:09]for him to be more helpful and I was definitely
[3:50:11]coordinating is not a good word
[3:50:13]because that sounds like I was trying
[3:50:15]to make a line myself
[3:50:17]that's not where we were going here
[3:50:19]but I was definitely trying to get help
[3:50:21]as in documents
[3:50:23]or information that I could use
[3:50:25]to defend myself, that's 100%
[3:50:27]and the degree to which that took place
[3:50:29]I don't recall
[3:50:33]there was definitely some of that
[3:50:35]that I don't want to misspeak
[3:50:37]We touched on this earlier but I just want to
[3:50:39]I don't think we
[3:50:41]really ran it to ground
[3:50:43]maybe as much as we could
[3:50:45]going up through that time
[3:50:47]so in the 16, 17, 18
[3:50:49]up until the time
[3:50:51]he's arrested
[3:50:53]had your view
[3:50:55]or your understanding
[3:50:57]of what had happened changed
[3:50:59]meaning
[3:51:01]did you believe that
[3:51:03]in the late 90s
[3:51:05]or early 2000s
[3:51:07]when he started
[3:51:09]you know, behaving
[3:51:11]much differently
[3:51:13]did you believe what you were hearing about him
[3:51:15]at that point?
[3:51:20]My views
[3:51:22]I didn't like the people he was with anyway
[3:51:24]so I
[3:51:26]I don't find
[3:51:28]how do I say this
[3:51:34]I don't like, I like people
[3:51:36]my age or older
[3:51:38]and I don't find the society of
[3:51:40]or the companionship of
[3:51:42]younger people who are
[3:51:45]younger people I suppose
[3:51:49]is really that
[3:51:51]enjoyable
[3:51:53]so I don't like
[3:51:55]the company that he
[3:51:57]chose to be with
[3:51:59]and so I just
[3:52:01]kind of boring and
[3:52:03]fundamentally uninteresting
[3:52:05]probably the nicest way I can say it
[3:52:07]yeah
[3:52:09]okay, so
[3:52:12]I think what we should do is
[3:52:14]just spend a few minutes talking about tomorrow
[3:52:16]everything was great today
[3:52:18]I think that it was very helpful
[3:52:20]and I appreciate you
[3:52:24]trying to be as
[3:52:26]complete as you can
[3:52:28]I think tomorrow
[3:52:30]you've said a few things today about
[3:52:32]the goals that you brought
[3:52:34]when we're done
[3:52:36]we'll give you a few minutes with
[3:52:38]Mr. Marcus to
[3:52:40]if there's things that you want to show him
[3:52:42]that you think we should see
[3:52:44]like I said, I'm not asking you to
[3:52:46]corroborate anything, if I was asking you to corroborate
[3:52:48]something I would tell you but if there's something
[3:52:50]you think that
[3:52:52]you don't think that the government has seen
[3:52:54]or you think it was important for me to see
[3:52:56]let Mr. Marcus know
[3:52:58]and he can share it with me
[3:53:02]tomorrow
[3:53:04]we'll certainly have some follow on questions
[3:53:06]when we all think about tonight
[3:53:08]and I think you will too
[3:53:10]we can all think about stuff we've talked about
[3:53:12]we've covered a lot of different areas
[3:53:14]I do want to talk about
[3:53:16]more about you
[3:53:18]so
[3:53:20]by design today we wanted to focus
[3:53:22]on Mr. Epstein
[3:53:24]and talk about
[3:53:26]everything under the sun that we've gone
[3:53:28]through today
[3:53:30]I do think it's important
[3:53:32]when we all evaluate
[3:53:34]what you've said today
[3:53:36]and your story
[3:53:38]to understand
[3:53:40]to also understand
[3:53:42]why you're here
[3:53:44]you were indicted, you were charged
[3:53:46]you went to trial
[3:53:48]and I want to do that in a way
[3:53:50]that gives you an opportunity
[3:53:52]to say
[3:53:54]or to say what you haven't said before
[3:53:56]but also
[3:53:58]understanding that there was
[3:54:00]people who took the witness stand
[3:54:02]and told the truth and testified
[3:54:04]about you and what you did
[3:54:06]and what they think you saw
[3:54:08]and what they heard you say
[3:54:10]and I'm not
[3:54:12]I said to Mr. Marcus
[3:54:14]I'm not trying to create a
[3:54:18]kind of a
[3:54:20]she said situation
[3:54:22]or he said she said situation
[3:54:24]but I do want to hear from you about your conduct
[3:54:26]it's important
[3:54:28]I think for when we evaluate
[3:54:30]what you say
[3:54:32]and how you say it
[3:54:34]and your recollection
[3:54:36]of things to also
[3:54:38]talk about that
[3:54:40]I want to talk about
[3:54:42]the circumstances leading up to your arrest
[3:54:44]there's a lot of
[3:54:46]misinformation
[3:54:48]or there's a lot of information out there
[3:54:50]that I don't know whether it's misinformation
[3:54:52]but about the time from
[3:54:54]2019 up until the time
[3:54:56]that you were arrested
[3:54:58]and then like I said
[3:55:00]that will take us through lunch tomorrow
[3:55:02]and then we'll be done
[3:55:04]I don't have a plan
[3:55:06]I didn't know that I was coming here
[3:55:08]until this week
[3:55:10]so I'm not
[3:55:12]we don't have
[3:55:14]a schedule of what happens next
[3:55:16]or what happens
[3:55:18]but that's not a negative thing
[3:55:20]I'm just saying that
[3:55:22]you shouldn't take the lack of a
[3:55:24]next step as anything other than
[3:55:26]we don't have a next step yet
[3:55:28]May I say something?
[3:55:30]I just would like to put out there
[3:55:32]that I also focus on
[3:55:34]how I think the president
[3:55:36]got swept into some of this
[3:55:38]unnecessarily
[3:55:40]by the way
[3:55:42]and I'm not a conspiracy theorist
[3:55:44]and I certainly don't subscribe
[3:55:46]to all of
[3:55:50]everything that I see
[3:55:52]I believe that there is
[3:55:56]animus in some areas
[3:55:58]that may have contributed
[3:56:00]to the use
[3:56:02]of the president
[3:56:04]to harm him
[3:56:06]that I find deeply
[3:56:08]offensive
[3:56:10]and whilst I can't
[3:56:12]obviously say
[3:56:14]definitively
[3:56:16]that that is what it is
[3:56:18]I would like to show you what I see
[3:56:20]so that you can evaluate it
[3:56:22]and do with that as you see fit
[3:56:24]if it needs to be addressed
[3:56:26]I've seen it, it struck me
[3:56:28]and I would like to give it to you
[3:56:30]for what it's worth
[3:56:32]does that seem something that
[3:56:34]I don't like
[3:56:36]okay, that's fine
[3:56:38]that's great
[3:56:40]okay, so why don't we stop
[3:56:42]for today, give you a little bit of time
[3:56:44]to chat and then
[3:56:46]see you in the morning
[3:56:48]this will conclude
[3:56:50]this will conclude the recorded
[3:56:52]proffer interview for Thursday
[3:56:54]July 24th
[3:56:56]we will continue tomorrow, Friday
[3:56:58]July 25th, the time is
[3:57:00]3.34
[3:57:02]test, test
[3:57:04]test, test
[3:57:06]I don't see
[3:57:14]I can't see it's blinking
[3:57:16]hello
[3:57:18]test, test, test, test
[3:57:20]test, test, test
[3:57:22]I see it blinking
[3:57:24]we're good
[3:57:26]we're shutting it down
[3:57:28]test, test, test
[3:57:30]it is Friday
[3:57:32]July 25th
[3:57:34]9.07am
[3:57:36]my name is Spencer R. Horne
[3:57:38]I'm the assistant special agent in charge
[3:57:40]in FBI New York
[3:57:42]this is day two
[3:57:44]of the proffer agreement
[3:57:46]recorded order
[3:57:48]of Ms. Maxwell
[3:57:50]good morning
[3:57:52]today is Friday
[3:57:54]July 25th, the time is
[3:57:56]9.24am
[3:57:58]my name is Spencer R. Horne
[3:58:00]I'm the assistant special agent in charge
[3:58:02]of FBI New York
[3:58:04]and we are here for a recorded proffer
[3:58:06]agreement with Ms. Maxwell
[3:58:08]good morning
[3:58:10]good morning Ms. Maxwell, how are you?
[3:58:12]good morning
[3:58:14]so the proffer agreement we signed yesterday
[3:58:16]I
[3:58:18]I just
[3:58:20]there's a place on it for us
[3:58:22]to all kind of initial
[3:58:24]it's exactly the same document
[3:58:26]and you'll see your signature
[3:58:28]if you can just initial right to the left
[3:58:30]of right here
[3:58:32]right there
[3:58:34]and then Mr. Marcus will
[3:58:36]initial as well
[3:58:38]and just to kind of
[3:58:40]before we get going
[3:58:42]I'll just say that
[3:58:44]exactly
[3:58:46]the same folks that were here
[3:58:48]when we met yesterday
[3:58:50]are here today
[3:58:52]I'm not going to do
[3:58:54]formal introductions because
[3:58:56]it's exactly the same group of folks
[3:58:58]so we're
[3:59:00]continuing Ms. Maxwell
[3:59:02]our discussion of yesterday
[3:59:04]and the same
[3:59:06]the same
[3:59:08]kind of rules apply
[3:59:10]if you will take breaks
[3:59:12]if you need to talk to Mr. Marcus or your lawyers
[3:59:14]absolutely no problem
[3:59:16]just let me know
[3:59:18]I'll try to ask my questions
[3:59:20]in a coherent manner
[3:59:22]but if there's anything that I say that's confusing
[3:59:24]definitely
[3:59:26]interrupt me
[3:59:28]I will, thank you
[3:59:30]so I think the easiest thing to
[3:59:34]to start with is
[3:59:36]is there anything that we talked about yesterday
[3:59:38]that we're going to go through
[3:59:40]some more names
[3:59:42]that's one of the places
[3:59:44]that we interrupted just because
[3:59:46]there's a lot of names
[3:59:48]aside from additional names
[3:59:50]is there anything that
[3:59:52]you wanted to kind of follow up on
[3:59:54]that we talked about yesterday or anything that you thought
[3:59:56]maybe you remember more of or not
[4:00:00]some more names
[4:00:02]did come to me in the night
[4:00:04]and I did have
[4:00:06]some additional
[4:00:08]memories
[4:00:10]just for clarity
[4:00:12]I believe I said that I couldn't
[4:00:14]think of anybody who
[4:00:16]I may have asked from
[4:00:18]Mar-a-Lago
[4:00:20]but then I realised that
[4:00:22]I was
[4:00:24]the allegation at least is that I
[4:00:26]met **** in Mar-a-Lago
[4:00:28]so I felt that I needed to address that
[4:00:30]and I didn't want to leave that hanging
[4:00:32]because that seems weird under circumstances
[4:00:34]and also but I couldn't
[4:00:36]remember anyone that maybe
[4:00:38]it was a long period of time
[4:00:40]so the issue is not that I'm trying to not
[4:00:42]say but I just don't
[4:00:44]I don't remember anybody
[4:00:46]that I would have but it's not impossible
[4:00:48]that I might have asked someone
[4:00:50]I don't know
[4:00:52]exactly what you said yesterday
[4:00:54]but I don't think what you said
[4:00:56]yesterday is different than what you just
[4:00:58]said so yes
[4:01:00]I just didn't want to feel that I had said
[4:01:02]no to something and that
[4:01:04]**** definitely
[4:01:06]has said that she was
[4:01:08]working at Mar-a-Lago and that
[4:01:10]you received a treatment
[4:01:12]from her at some point and that you
[4:01:14]recruited her to meet
[4:01:16]Mr. Epstein. Do you know affirmatively
[4:01:18]whether that's true or false
[4:01:20]or do you just not have a memory either way?
[4:01:22]I really
[4:01:24]don't believe it's true
[4:01:26]but I know that I did
[4:01:28]go to spas and if I met
[4:01:30]someone I did ask if they're home so I don't
[4:01:32]in the realms
[4:01:34]of possibility it could have
[4:01:36]but I have no memory of it and I don't believe
[4:01:38]that it's how it went down
[4:01:40]but I don't want to
[4:01:42]So I want to talk about
[4:01:44]we talked a little bit yesterday about
[4:01:46]the financial part of your
[4:01:48]relationship with Mr. Epstein
[4:01:50]being on payroll for lack
[4:01:52]of a better word for many many years
[4:01:54]starting around 25,000
[4:01:56]and ending up at around
[4:01:58]250,000 per year
[4:02:00]There's
[4:02:02]as you know from your trial
[4:02:04]there's banking information
[4:02:06]that shows a ton of money being
[4:02:08]sent to you from
[4:02:10]Mr. Epstein over
[4:02:12]the years
[4:02:14]I think totaling something like
[4:02:16]30 million dollars
[4:02:18]something like this. What's
[4:02:20]the
[4:02:22]why was that money sent to you?
[4:02:24]What was that for?
[4:02:26]First of all I don't
[4:02:28]I dispute the characterization that
[4:02:30]the money was sent to me
[4:02:32]Ok so tell me
[4:02:34]I am stuck
[4:02:36]with the witnesses at trial and what was
[4:02:38]said at trial on that issue so
[4:02:40]what is the
[4:02:42]what do you dispute about that?
[4:02:44]Well I believe
[4:02:46]I don't have full recollection
[4:02:48]I'm not even sure I ever saw what they
[4:02:50]accused me of but my
[4:02:52]belief is that that
[4:02:54]money also contained
[4:02:56]money that was for
[4:02:58]a helicopter for instance
[4:03:00]that
[4:03:02]I never owned and I
[4:03:04]was never mine
[4:03:06]In other words money was sent to you
[4:03:08]that you then used to purchase
[4:03:10]things or? Well I'm not even sure
[4:03:12]that I purchased it so the accounts
[4:03:14]those accounts would be controlled
[4:03:16]by his accountants
[4:03:18]Even accounts in your name
[4:03:20]or one of your entities?
[4:03:22]I'm not even sure
[4:03:24]I knew of all the entities
[4:03:26]Maybe I did
[4:03:28]contemporaneously but I simply wouldn't
[4:03:30]know today so if there was an
[4:03:32]entity let's say
[4:03:34]account X
[4:03:36]if I really set that up myself
[4:03:38]or whether they said we're doing this and the money's coming
[4:03:40]or whatever but in no
[4:03:44]substantive way
[4:03:46]I can't think of the right word
[4:03:48]I had no control
[4:03:50]So when the government
[4:03:52]when there was testimony or the government admitted
[4:03:54]evidence that showed for example
[4:03:56]five million dollars
[4:03:58]in 2002
[4:04:00]coming from Epstein
[4:04:02]to you
[4:04:04]what you're saying is that
[4:04:06]that happened
[4:04:08]but that the you there
[4:04:10]wasn't money that he wasn't giving you
[4:04:12]money? I'm not going to say
[4:04:14]that for everything because maybe there were
[4:04:16]accounts that money was sent
[4:04:18]to me but I can say
[4:04:20]that I know
[4:04:22]the helicopter I can definitively say
[4:04:24]I'd have to look at all of them to be
[4:04:28]accurate for you
[4:04:30]but to
[4:04:32]explain how or why I could
[4:04:34]be receiving money and I certainly did
[4:04:36]I'm not disputing all of it
[4:04:38]Go back to the helicopter
[4:04:40]Why did money have to go into
[4:04:42]your account
[4:04:44]that was controlled by others but in your name
[4:04:46]to purchase a
[4:04:48]helicopter? Oh that's a very good question
[4:04:50]I'm not sure I know the answer
[4:04:52]to that
[4:04:55]I don't
[4:04:57]So let me ask this maybe a different
[4:04:59]way that gets to the
[4:05:01]issue right?
[4:05:03]So the accusation by
[4:05:05]the government based upon the
[4:05:07]evidence they collected is that
[4:05:09]Epstein paid you
[4:05:11]millions and millions of dollars
[4:05:13]over the years and the reason why he paid you
[4:05:15]that is because you were performing an extraordinary
[4:05:17]service for him by
[4:05:19]recruiting young women
[4:05:21]many of whom are underage
[4:05:23]to
[4:05:25]so that he could sexually
[4:05:27]abuse them. Okay that's their
[4:05:29]allocation. Okay from what
[4:05:35]you said yesterday and from what I've reviewed
[4:05:37]about you and Mr
[4:05:39]Epstein
[4:05:41]he paid for a lot
[4:05:43]in your life, your flights
[4:05:45]where you stayed with him
[4:05:47]I mean he didn't expect you to reimburse
[4:05:49]him along the way for food
[4:05:51]so he took care of you for many
[4:05:53]years. That is true. On top of that
[4:05:55]he actually paid you a salary
[4:05:57]we talked about 25,000 to
[4:05:59]250,000. What else
[4:06:01]did he give you?
[4:06:03]Was there a time when he gave you
[4:06:05]a million dollars or 500,000
[4:06:07]dollars as a bonus?
[4:06:09]What financial benefit did you receive from
[4:06:11]him besides what we've already
[4:06:13]talked about? We don't have to talk about
[4:06:15]I got it.
[4:06:17]My goal always
[4:06:21]was to become
[4:06:23]independent, independently
[4:06:25]financially secure
[4:06:29]and work for myself. I've never
[4:06:31]been the one to not work
[4:06:33]and in that
[4:06:35]regard
[4:06:37]over the course of my friendship
[4:06:39]and my working relationship
[4:06:41]with Epstein I
[4:06:43]expressed to him
[4:06:45]my desire to be independent
[4:06:47]of him
[4:06:49]just to be free-standing
[4:06:51]and
[4:06:53]with that in mind I wanted
[4:06:55]to have my own businesses
[4:06:57]all my own
[4:06:59]my own money coming in, independent
[4:07:03]and separate from any salary
[4:07:05]that I received from him
[4:07:07]and I needed
[4:07:09]that for my self-esteem. I've never
[4:07:11]been
[4:07:13]I mean obviously salary was a very generous one
[4:07:15]please I'm not belittling
[4:07:17]the sum of money because it's huge but
[4:07:21]I was brought up to work
[4:07:23]and I was brought up to be
[4:07:25]my own
[4:07:27]the first time
[4:07:30]so I would either propose businesses
[4:07:32]to him
[4:07:34]or he would actually suggest
[4:07:36]why didn't I do something and the first deal
[4:07:38]that we did or the first
[4:07:42]business that we had or I
[4:07:44]had and that he
[4:07:46]financed for me so he gave
[4:07:48]he lent me all the money to enable me
[4:07:50]to do this and then I
[4:07:52]reap the profits which I
[4:07:54]I don't remember now because we
[4:07:56]varied over the deals that we did that
[4:07:58]I would give him 50% or 25
[4:08:00]it was sort of
[4:08:04]it was random and I can tell you what it is
[4:08:06]so it was in Palm Beach
[4:08:08]actually and it was in real
[4:08:10]estate and they sold
[4:08:12]what was the grounds
[4:08:14]originally of an estate
[4:08:16]called the Phipps Estate
[4:08:18]and then they converted
[4:08:20]the land
[4:08:22]that came with that estate into
[4:08:26]houses and
[4:08:28]I did I think
[4:08:30]two or maybe three I can't remember now
[4:08:32]but certainly one and maybe two
[4:08:34]possibly three I don't think so
[4:08:36]I think two that then were flipped
[4:08:38]and there was a profit
[4:08:40]so that would be an example
[4:08:42]of that but I didn't have the money
[4:08:44]so he lent me the funds
[4:08:46]to do that business transaction
[4:08:48]and then I reap the profits
[4:08:50]and so
[4:08:52]but when
[4:08:54]millions of dollars
[4:08:56]when a financial investigator
[4:08:58]the FBI looks at accounts
[4:09:00]they don't know kind of the conversations
[4:09:02]you're having they just see the money
[4:09:04]so in those cases when that happened
[4:09:06]when he financed that with you
[4:09:08]would he send money
[4:09:10]to you so does that explain
[4:09:12]some of the money?
[4:09:14]I think it does
[4:09:16]I think for instance there were two
[4:09:18]gullwing Mercedes
[4:09:20]that they did with
[4:09:22]Mercedes and Aston Martin you can look up
[4:09:24]I think if I'm right
[4:09:26]that had
[4:09:28]the doors that would come up like this
[4:09:30]that were only a very limited number that were made
[4:09:32]so I knew that we
[4:09:34]could get those and would flip them
[4:09:36]right within 24 hours
[4:09:38]for example
[4:09:40]also my
[4:09:42]here's another example
[4:09:45]something that you guys wouldn't have known
[4:09:47]about is I became a banker
[4:09:49]I got my series 63
[4:09:51]series 67
[4:09:53]banking license
[4:09:55]and became a broker for like a new
[4:09:57]and then because
[4:09:59]I was day trading everything I had
[4:10:01]I day traded through an account
[4:10:03]and
[4:10:05]I think I was lucky more than smart
[4:10:07]but I made
[4:10:09]a lot of money doing that
[4:10:11]when was that?
[4:10:13]that's in the 90s again
[4:10:15]I don't
[4:10:17]I think you can find it
[4:10:19]it will be my banking license right?
[4:10:21]that will be something that you can look up
[4:10:23]so whatever that is
[4:10:25]and I just
[4:10:27]don't remember when that is I'm sorry
[4:10:29]so
[4:10:31]for example
[4:10:33]I was doing really
[4:10:35]well and so he was like
[4:10:37]how do you do that?
[4:10:39]why are you investing in
[4:10:41]Apple when nobody liked Apple
[4:10:43]this is
[4:10:45]before Apple or Microsoft
[4:10:47]I didn't know Bill Gates so this is not related
[4:10:49]to him but
[4:10:51]my family
[4:10:53]no I'm
[4:10:55]not trying to suggest that
[4:10:57]please no
[4:10:59]it was just a joke
[4:11:01]oh yeah
[4:11:03]alright
[4:11:05]but
[4:11:07]my
[4:11:09]going back to my family
[4:11:11]my dad had given me an account when I was
[4:11:13]12 and I had
[4:11:15]always an interest in business
[4:11:17]and finance
[4:11:19]not very sophisticated
[4:11:21]I'm not suggesting that
[4:11:23]and so I like to trade
[4:11:25]and so I did
[4:11:27]and I did well and so then I would tell
[4:11:29]him what I was doing
[4:11:31]now whether he did or he didn't
[4:11:33]matched me in some other accounts
[4:11:35]because he did a lot of
[4:11:37]my observation
[4:11:39]to go back to what he did I observed him
[4:11:41]personally and have recollection
[4:11:43]personal recollection of him
[4:11:45]trading
[4:11:47]money
[4:11:49]tens of millions hundreds of millions
[4:11:51]of dollars
[4:11:53]that he was trading for other
[4:11:55]people or that was his own money
[4:11:57]I want also to
[4:11:59]clarify something
[4:12:01]clarify or underline
[4:12:03]Wexner was
[4:12:05]in my opinion his closest friend
[4:12:07]in this time period
[4:12:09]from when I met him
[4:12:11]in 91
[4:12:13]all the way until
[4:12:15]well
[4:12:17]until
[4:12:19]I don't know because I wasn't that
[4:12:21]friendly with
[4:12:23]I did travel with Mr Wexner but
[4:12:25]Epstein told
[4:12:27]me that
[4:12:29]Wexner didn't want to be
[4:12:31]seen too much with me because
[4:12:33]of my family
[4:12:35]problems
[4:12:37]You mean the problems that
[4:12:39]your father's company had
[4:12:41]with embezzlement or
[4:12:43]Yes, that's what I'm talking about
[4:12:45]and now actually
[4:12:47]today not
[4:12:49]contemporaneously but today I don't
[4:12:51]believe that that's even true
[4:12:53]I think it was used as a means
[4:12:55]to not have me travel
[4:12:57]with him to Ohio
[4:12:59]or whatever it was just a way
[4:13:01]to park me
[4:13:03]and I believe that now because
[4:13:05]within the discovery there was
[4:13:07]a lot of well not a lot but there was some
[4:13:09]indications that he
[4:13:11]would actively tell other people to lie
[4:13:13]to me or conceal things from me
[4:13:15]and that he never
[4:13:17]loved me and I wasn't his type
[4:13:19]that's in the discovery somewhere
[4:13:21]So
[4:13:23]Okay, so the
[4:13:25]government had evidence
[4:13:27]that even
[4:13:29]as late as 2007
[4:13:31]he paid
[4:13:33]you a lot of money
[4:13:37]What was that? What was the money?
[4:13:39]Millions and millions of dollars in 2007
[4:13:41]7.4 million
[4:13:43]dollars I think. What was that for?
[4:13:45]Was that the helicopter? That's my question for you
[4:13:47]I don't know
[4:13:49]So in 2007
[4:13:51]I think that was probably the helicopter
[4:13:53]That could have been the helicopter, the Sikorsky
[4:13:55]Those big chunks like that
[4:13:57]I don't
[4:13:59]personally have any memory
[4:14:01]of receiving a check from him
[4:14:03]for 7 million dollars
[4:14:05]I just don't
[4:14:07]I would have to
[4:14:09]I know
[4:14:11]So the answer to your question
[4:14:13]Would you remember if it went into your pocket?
[4:14:15]I would remember if it went, he never paid
[4:14:17]me for services
[4:14:19]that you just described
[4:14:21]7 million dollars
[4:14:23]for any
[4:14:25]nefarious reason
[4:14:27]I think I understand
[4:14:29]what you've said about
[4:14:31]being on the payroll
[4:14:33]and him helping you with businesses
[4:14:35]and giving you a lot of
[4:14:37]life
[4:14:39]things along the way
[4:14:41]You travel with him, you eat with him
[4:14:43]But there is
[4:14:45]these massive amounts of money
[4:14:47]one time payments
[4:14:49]I don't believe that came into my account
[4:14:51]or I had any control, I have no memory of that
[4:14:53]I've no
[4:14:55]Well, but if there's records that show it coming
[4:14:57]into your account, it sounds like what you're saying is that
[4:14:59]not
[4:15:01]You have no memory of
[4:15:03]that money being yours
[4:15:05]No, I wouldn't be like
[4:15:07]Yippee, let me go, I've got 7 million dollars
[4:15:09]I'm going to go buy myself a yacht
[4:15:11]or something else
[4:15:13]or move it
[4:15:15]I don't think
[4:15:17]I don't think if you look
[4:15:19]You'll have to check
[4:15:21]Obviously you will
[4:15:23]I don't think you'll find that money
[4:15:25]moving to any account
[4:15:27]other than mine
[4:15:29]It shouldn't show, I don't believe anyway
[4:15:31]as far as I regulate, it wouldn't show me spending it
[4:15:33]Does that make sense?
[4:15:35]Yeah, that makes sense
[4:15:37]I don't think
[4:15:39]there's any dispute
[4:15:41]by anybody, even your lawyers
[4:15:43]at trial that
[4:15:45]7 million dollars in when, what year?
[4:15:47]Well, there's several years, in 2007
[4:15:49]And?
[4:15:51]2002, there was 5 million dollars
[4:15:53]that you were paid in 2002
[4:15:55]Oh, well
[4:15:57]I'd have to, I don't
[4:15:59]remember, but
[4:16:01]there would be another large sum, but it wouldn't have come from him
[4:16:03]later, but nothing to do with it
[4:16:05]The biggest one was in 1999
[4:16:07]there was over 18 million
[4:16:09]18.3 million
[4:16:11]I don't know what that is
[4:16:16]But what you're saying
[4:16:18]it sounds like, and then if you don't know
[4:16:20]we can move on, but
[4:16:22]when we're talking about
[4:16:24]18.3 million in 1999
[4:16:26]5 million three years later in 2002
[4:16:28]7.4 million
[4:16:30]in 2007
[4:16:32]That
[4:16:34]money adds up to around 30 million dollars
[4:16:36]You were not
[4:16:38]paid that by Mr. Epstein, meaning
[4:16:40]that's not money you received for your
[4:16:42]benefit, even if it was put into your accounts
[4:16:44]I don't believe any of that was my money
[4:16:46]Now, I do, I just
[4:16:48]like I said, we did do these things
[4:16:50]with the cars, and we did
[4:16:52]As, as
[4:16:54]I don't know if any of that money
[4:16:56]some of it, if it moves, some of that
[4:16:58]may have come from the car or a house that was sold
[4:17:00]that I had interested with him
[4:17:02]that's possible, but I don't
[4:17:04]think this money is mine
[4:17:06]But also, the record should reflect too, that there were times
[4:17:08]Gillen's name was used
[4:17:10]for example, Air Gillen
[4:17:12]Her name was in the name of the entity
[4:17:14]It had nothing to do with her, and
[4:17:16]if you pulled signatures
[4:17:18]There's no
[4:17:20]No, my, what I'm trying to
[4:17:22]just make sure I
[4:17:24]understand is that
[4:17:26]the idea that
[4:17:28]you were paid 30 million dollars
[4:17:30]between 1999 and 2007
[4:17:32]in order to
[4:17:34]by Mr. Epstein, to reward you
[4:17:36]for recruiting young
[4:17:38]women, that is, and you're
[4:17:40]saying that is categorically completely false
[4:17:42]That is categorically false, correct
[4:17:46]So
[4:17:54]I want to
[4:17:59]just, we went through several individuals
[4:18:01]yesterday, and
[4:18:03]I want to
[4:18:05]go through just a couple of
[4:18:07]more names and ask if you
[4:18:09]know them, and if you do know them, how you
[4:18:11]know them
[4:18:15]Do you know Elon Musk?
[4:18:17]I do
[4:18:19]And how did you meet Mr. Musk?
[4:18:21]I met him in
[4:18:25]I don't remember
[4:18:27]the year, but it's going to be
[4:18:29]in 2010-11
[4:18:31]something like that
[4:18:35]I think, if my memory serves
[4:18:37]and
[4:18:39]I was at
[4:18:41]an event for
[4:18:43]Sergey Brin
[4:18:45]co-founder of
[4:18:47]Google
[4:18:49]and Sergey
[4:18:51]had arranged for
[4:18:53]it was for his birthday
[4:18:55]and we were
[4:18:57]a bunch of us
[4:18:59]I don't even remember how many we were
[4:19:01]but not many of us
[4:19:05]maybe, if I say 40, I could be wrong
[4:19:07]if it was 30
[4:19:09]or 50, I don't remember, I'm sorry
[4:19:11]went to
[4:19:13]another friend's island
[4:19:15]somebody called Mr. Bigotsi
[4:19:17]in
[4:19:19]the Caribbean
[4:19:21]not with Epstein, he was not there
[4:19:23]to celebrate Sergey's birthday
[4:19:25]and we were there together for
[4:19:27]I want to say 3 or 4 days
[4:19:30]something like that, in my memory
[4:19:32]and Mr. Musk
[4:19:34]was a present for that
[4:19:36]And that was the first time you met him?
[4:19:38]As far as I remember, yes
[4:19:40]Did you meet
[4:19:42]did you know his brother, Mr. Musk's brother?
[4:19:46]I don't know if I've ever met him
[4:19:48]I know that he has a brother
[4:19:52]but I don't think I met him
[4:19:54]Aside from that time
[4:19:56]around 2010
[4:19:58]on the island of the Caribbean
[4:20:00]for a couple of days, did you
[4:20:02]have you seen, do you know Mr. Musk
[4:20:04]beyond that time?
[4:20:06]We met, I was at the Oscars
[4:20:08]and we met at the Oscars
[4:20:10]What year was that, earlier or later?
[4:20:12]It was post that event
[4:20:14]I believe
[4:20:16]And do you know whether
[4:20:18]Epstein knew Mr. Musk?
[4:20:20]I believe they did
[4:20:22]and the only reason I say that is not from my memory
[4:20:24]but because I saw
[4:20:26]I think I saw
[4:20:28]my memory is that in Discovery
[4:20:30]they were communicating on email
[4:20:32]So you have no
[4:20:34]personal knowledge of that
[4:20:36]it's just what you've seen from
[4:20:38]the press or from Discovery
[4:20:40]And I believe his brother as well actually
[4:20:42]Excuse me?
[4:20:44]Musk's brother as well
[4:20:46]but I don't
[4:20:48]like I said my memory is not
[4:20:50]it's not as good
[4:20:52]as I would like it to be
[4:20:54]and I just want to say that
[4:20:56]Do you, you mentioned I think
[4:20:58]yesterday in passing
[4:21:00]not in passing but as part of another
[4:21:02]answer
[4:21:04]Andrew Cuomo
[4:21:06]Did you know Mr. Cuomo?
[4:21:08]Well only because he was married
[4:21:10]to Carrie
[4:21:12]And I think
[4:21:14]I knew his brother as well
[4:21:16]He has a brother right? He's on TV
[4:21:18]What's his name?
[4:21:20]Right, Christopher
[4:21:24]You mean the former TV anchor?
[4:21:26]Yes
[4:21:28]But I would say
[4:21:30]just socially
[4:21:32]I'm not close friends
[4:21:34]or anything but because
[4:21:36]I was friends with Carrie and I met
[4:21:38]him a few times and I certainly met his brother
[4:21:40]as well a few times
[4:21:43]And the same questions that I asked about Mr. Musk
[4:21:45]Do you know whether Mr. Epstein
[4:21:47]knew
[4:21:49]Andrew Cuomo or Chris Cuomo
[4:21:51]or Miss Kennedy your friend?
[4:21:55]I don't think so
[4:21:57]And so you never
[4:21:59]you don't recall any of those
[4:22:01]three individuals like flying
[4:22:03]on Mr. Epstein's plane or
[4:22:05]visiting him in Palm Beach or at the island
[4:22:07]No
[4:22:09]I think you mentioned former Secretary
[4:22:11]of State John Kerry yesterday but
[4:22:13]if not do you know Mr. Kerry
[4:22:15]or not? I have met him
[4:22:17]but I don't know if Mr. Epstein
[4:22:19]I met him at only
[4:22:21]well really I can't
[4:22:23]even probably characterize
[4:22:25]that as a meeting but I was
[4:22:27]very very involved in the ocean
[4:22:29]work through
[4:22:31]the you asked me yesterday about
[4:22:33]Terramore and
[4:22:35]if I recall right
[4:22:37]I met Mr. Secretary
[4:22:39]halfway through the ocean
[4:22:41]but he wouldn't know who I am I doubt
[4:22:44]Do you know whether
[4:22:46]well do you know former
[4:22:48]Senator Ted Kennedy?
[4:22:50]Yes
[4:22:52]Is that through your own life
[4:22:54]or through Mr. Epstein?
[4:22:56]My life
[4:22:58]Do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew
[4:23:00]Senator Kennedy? I don't believe so
[4:23:02]And so for the folks we just talked about
[4:23:04]so former Secretary of State
[4:23:06]John Kerry, Ted Kennedy
[4:23:08]did
[4:23:10]you don't know whether Mr. Epstein knew him
[4:23:12]so I take that to mean you have no
[4:23:14]recollection of them flying on his planes
[4:23:16]or visiting him
[4:23:18]But
[4:23:20]Bobby Kennedy
[4:23:22]knew him
[4:23:24]Bobby the health
[4:23:26]Sorry say that again about Bobby Kennedy
[4:23:28]Bobby knew Mr. Epstein
[4:23:30]How do you know that?
[4:23:32]Because we went on a trip together
[4:23:34]We went to
[4:23:36]um
[4:23:40]dinosaur bone hunting
[4:23:42]in the Dakotas
[4:23:44]When was that
[4:23:46]you know approximately I'm not looking for an exact date
[4:23:48]but when was that?
[4:23:52]That was early
[4:23:54]Well let me back up
[4:23:56]I knew Bobby's wife
[4:23:58]Mary pretty well actually
[4:24:00]and before he met her
[4:24:04]Just to help us I know we're talking about
[4:24:06]a wide span of time
[4:24:08]So when are you talking about
[4:24:10]that you knew
[4:24:12]Mr. Kennedy's
[4:24:14]wife before they were married
[4:24:16]so when are we talking about that?
[4:24:18]I
[4:24:20]um in
[4:24:22]19
[4:24:24]Let's get my head straight
[4:24:26]in um
[4:24:29]Well would this have been before you met Mr. Epstein?
[4:24:31]Yes
[4:24:33]I met him before I met
[4:24:35]So we're talking about the 1980's
[4:24:37]Okay so we're talking about the 1980's
[4:24:39]and then
[4:24:41]I was
[4:24:43]the
[4:24:45]I had a very very long standing boyfriend
[4:24:47]and he had
[4:24:49]his brother
[4:24:51]was dating
[4:24:53]Mary at the time and we were all good friends
[4:24:55]And then
[4:24:57]Mr. Epstein
[4:24:59]did Mr.
[4:25:01]Epstein meet Bobby Kennedy
[4:25:03]through you?
[4:25:05]I don't think so
[4:25:07]because
[4:25:09]Mr. Epstein
[4:25:11]surprisingly everyone says
[4:25:13]everything happened through me that's just not true
[4:25:15]I mean I think yesterday
[4:25:17]I explained that he had friends from
[4:25:19]London and those were very
[4:25:21]they were what the people
[4:25:23]would call fancy
[4:25:25]they were fancy people
[4:25:27]But he had the same
[4:25:29]types of relationships
[4:25:31]before I met him in
[4:25:33]in America
[4:25:35]so when I met him he was
[4:25:37]already you know
[4:25:39]Wexner and he had Henry
[4:25:41]and he had he was I don't know if
[4:25:43]then he was in the council of foreign relations
[4:25:45]but he was friends
[4:25:47]with Ace and
[4:25:49]you know like he was
[4:25:51]he was well established
[4:25:53]he didn't need me
[4:25:55]and he was you know his Eva was
[4:25:57]you know major
[4:25:59]model so he had all these
[4:26:01]modeling connections
[4:26:03]and friends in that business
[4:26:05]that long before
[4:26:07]I met him
[4:26:11]And so the trip that you went on
[4:26:13]with Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy
[4:26:15]was that in the 90s
[4:26:17]and 2000s?
[4:26:19]It would have been in the
[4:26:23]I want to say 93
[4:26:25]94
[4:26:27]So a very long time ago
[4:26:29]A very very long time ago
[4:26:31]A few years into the
[4:26:33]your relationship
[4:26:35]A few years into the time
[4:26:37]that you knew Mr. Epstein
[4:26:39]Yes, I don't want to hold myself to the dates
[4:26:41]because I really
[4:26:43]I'm not holding you to dates
[4:26:45]I've said that a lot because I appreciate we're talking about
[4:26:47]the 80s and 90s
[4:26:49]and even the 2000s
[4:26:51]I don't have anything to review
[4:26:53]so I haven't had any ability
[4:26:55]to short of my
[4:26:57]legal material obviously
[4:26:59]which you know I have
[4:27:01]but short of that I have nothing
[4:27:03]with which to refresh
[4:27:05]or very limited stuff I should say
[4:27:07]to refresh my mind
[4:27:09]Do you have any recollection
[4:27:11]of Mr. Kennedy
[4:27:13]of there being anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy
[4:27:15]and
[4:27:17]masseuses
[4:27:19]or young women
[4:27:21]on the trip you just talked about
[4:27:23]I never saw anything inappropriate
[4:27:25]with Mr. Kennedy
[4:27:27]Do you know whether he ever got
[4:27:29]a massage from one of the masseuses
[4:27:31]Do you know either way?
[4:27:33]I do not
[4:27:35]I mean absolutely not
[4:27:37]I mean yesterday
[4:27:39]if I didn't make it clear
[4:27:41]I will reiterate it
[4:27:43]I never ever saw
[4:27:45]any man doing something
[4:27:47]inappropriate
[4:27:49]with a woman
[4:27:51]of any age
[4:27:53]I never saw inappropriate
[4:27:55]I'm not
[4:27:57]I'm not going to say
[4:27:59]hands or
[4:28:01]that to me is not inappropriate
[4:28:03]somebody is inappropriate and mine
[4:28:05]may be different but
[4:28:07]I'm not talking about anything that
[4:28:09]resembles the accusations
[4:28:11]that were
[4:28:13]discussed here so that would be
[4:28:15]a flat note to any man
[4:28:19]Did your or Mr. Epstein's
[4:28:21]relationship with Bobby Kennedy
[4:28:23]continue into the 2000s as far as you know?
[4:28:25]I would say yes
[4:28:29]Well mine yes
[4:28:31]Yours with you?
[4:28:33]With me for sure
[4:28:35]Do you know whether Mr. Epstein
[4:28:37]and Mr. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy
[4:28:39]continue to have relationships
[4:28:41]into the 2000s?
[4:28:43]I have no personal knowledge of that
[4:28:45]because
[4:28:47]another thing is that
[4:28:49]everyone puts us together
[4:28:51]like a monolith
[4:28:53]He literally had a separate life from me
[4:28:55]I literally had a separate life from him
[4:28:57]Did they say that? Of course they did
[4:28:59]I'm not crazy but
[4:29:01]he kept a lot to himself
[4:29:03]and he didn't like to share
[4:29:05]He was not a sharer
[4:29:07]Not with me
[4:29:11]Do you know somebody named Cheryl Mills?
[4:29:13]I do
[4:29:15]Yes
[4:29:17]I met Ms. Mills through
[4:29:19]President Clinton
[4:29:21]Do you remember
[4:29:23]generally the time frame
[4:29:25]that you met her?
[4:29:27]I do actually
[4:29:39]I'm sorry I'm just trying to
[4:29:41]get my dates right
[4:29:43]Approximately
[4:29:45]I can't get my dates right
[4:29:47]It's something
[4:29:49]It's going to be in the early 2000s
[4:29:51]So I don't recall
[4:29:53]I wanted to say 2002
[4:29:57]I'm going to say 2002 or 2003
[4:29:59]So it was after President Clinton
[4:30:01]left office
[4:30:03]and so it was in the 2000s
[4:30:05]How did you meet her?
[4:30:07]What were the circumstances in which you met Ms. Mills?
[4:30:09]I went on a trip with
[4:30:12]the President to South America
[4:30:14]With which President?
[4:30:16]President Clinton
[4:30:18]I just wanted
[4:30:20]to make sure it was clear
[4:30:22]So you went on a trip to where?
[4:30:24]Latin America
[4:30:26]So Ms. Mills
[4:30:28]was on that trip? She was
[4:30:30]And President Clinton was on that trip?
[4:30:32]He was
[4:30:34]Don't find
[4:30:36]Who worked with
[4:30:38]President Clinton? Yes
[4:30:40]And
[4:30:42]Was Mr. Epstein? No
[4:30:44]And what was the purpose of that trip?
[4:30:48]Well
[4:30:50]The President had his
[4:30:52]I don't know
[4:30:54]I mean
[4:30:56]The President met with
[4:30:58]I can't even remember
[4:31:00]All the presidents
[4:31:02]Was this part of
[4:31:04]President Clinton's work after he left
[4:31:06]office with his foundation?
[4:31:08]Meaning
[4:31:10]Was it something for him?
[4:31:12]I don't remember when
[4:31:14]the Clinton Global Initiative started
[4:31:16]So if you give me
[4:31:18]that date I can tell you if it was pre or post
[4:31:20]Because without that I can't pen
[4:31:22]the reason
[4:31:24]Do you remember what it was for or not?
[4:31:26]No, I don't recall
[4:31:28]Don't overthink or underthink
[4:31:30]The reason for my questions
[4:31:32]I don't have any idea why you went on that trip
[4:31:34]I don't know an answer that I'm keeping from you
[4:31:36]No, I'm just trying to be as accurate
[4:31:38]as possible and give you the information
[4:31:40]Why would you
[4:31:42]Do you remember why you were invited to go?
[4:31:44]Were you friends with somebody?
[4:31:46]What was your role going on that trip?
[4:31:48]I didn't have a role
[4:31:52]So do you remember
[4:31:54]Why
[4:31:56]Do you remember who invited you to go?
[4:31:58]Probably
[4:32:02]Probably Doug Band
[4:32:04]How did you know
[4:32:06]Doug?
[4:32:08]Because Doug and
[4:32:10]Philip Levine
[4:32:14]Do you know whether he had
[4:32:16]a relationship with Mr Epstein?
[4:32:18]Who?
[4:32:20]Doug
[4:32:22]I don't know
[4:32:24]I don't believe there was any relationship
[4:32:26]other than I
[4:32:28]helped
[4:32:30]Without me I don't think there would have been those flights
[4:32:32]I remember the one who asked
[4:32:34]Epstein to provide the plane
[4:32:36]for
[4:32:38]Well certainly I remember the one to
[4:32:40]Africa of course
[4:32:42]that big trip
[4:32:45]I thought it was an honour
[4:32:48]and a privilege to be part of something
[4:32:50]so amazing
[4:32:52]and to have an opportunity to
[4:32:54]spend time with
[4:32:56]a man that I found truly extraordinary
[4:33:00]Please I don't mean it in any other way
[4:33:02]other than there's a form of fantastic
[4:33:04]ex-president
[4:33:06]So I was asking around
[4:33:08]the question but I was asking
[4:33:10]Were you basically asked to go because
[4:33:12]you were kind of
[4:33:14]responsible for the plane? Not responsible is the wrong word
[4:33:16]They were able
[4:33:18]to use you to make sure that they could
[4:33:20]You helped them get Mr
[4:33:22]Epstein's plane for the trip?
[4:33:24]No I don't even know if when I was on that
[4:33:26]I think
[4:33:28]that trip I'm not even sure
[4:33:30]that Epstein had met the president
[4:33:32]I think this is
[4:33:34]I'm right and I think I am
[4:33:36]I think that trip happened when
[4:33:38]Epstein and Clinton had never even
[4:33:40]not that they'd never met because Epstein had gone to the White House
[4:33:42]but they had not met
[4:33:44]I'd never asked Epstein for the plane
[4:33:46]because they'd never met and it would be weird
[4:33:48]but they met because of me
[4:33:50]and the plane was because of me
[4:33:52]but that trip was the first
[4:33:54]I think
[4:33:56]the first trip I took with the
[4:33:58]next president
[4:34:00]and I don't believe Epstein
[4:34:02]and he had met
[4:34:04]we're talking a time period
[4:34:06]when I was trying to
[4:34:08]leave
[4:34:10]not very successfully obviously but I was
[4:34:12]branching out on my own
[4:34:14]and being more independent
[4:34:16]of Mr Epstein
[4:34:18]and
[4:34:20]trying to
[4:34:22]I had all kinds of
[4:34:24]businesses that I was into
[4:34:26]trying to start the first telehealth medicine
[4:34:28]with the Cleveland Clinic
[4:34:30]I'm not going to bore you because I don't think that's what you guys are
[4:34:32]interested in
[4:34:34]but those were the sorts of things
[4:34:36]that I was looking for him to finance
[4:34:38]so that I could stop being
[4:34:40]general manager of a hotel
[4:34:42]did you
[4:34:44]did you take other
[4:34:48]trips with
[4:34:50]some or all of those
[4:34:52]individuals kind of
[4:34:54]without Mr Epstein in later years
[4:34:56]maybe that was the first time that you
[4:34:58]kind of been on something like that
[4:35:00]and it was an honor and you were spending time
[4:35:02]with former president Clinton
[4:35:04]and others
[4:35:06]over the years did you do that more than once?
[4:35:08]yes
[4:35:10]we'll talk about those
[4:35:12]like multiple times
[4:35:14]like too many to count or
[4:35:16]three or four times, how many times?
[4:35:18]a lot
[4:35:20]I went on a lot of trips
[4:35:22]I don't recall all of them
[4:35:24]not because
[4:35:26]I'm trying to be evasive or anything
[4:35:28]but I just don't remember them all
[4:35:30]and after a while
[4:35:32]you know in the incredible job that you have
[4:35:34]all of you
[4:35:36]when you're so high pressured and you're
[4:35:38]spending so much time with extraordinary
[4:35:40]people like you do with
[4:35:42]President Trump
[4:35:44]it can blur
[4:35:46]it just does
[4:35:48]and there's few things that stand out
[4:35:50]because at the end it's all just extraordinary
[4:35:52]because
[4:35:54]cause and
[4:35:56]sirens and president
[4:35:58]it's like whoa okay
[4:36:00]so
[4:36:02]I understand
[4:36:04]but talk
[4:36:06]understanding you can't give specific numbers
[4:36:08]describe more about
[4:36:10]that part of your life and your relationship
[4:36:12]I'm using relationship
[4:36:14]you don't like relationship
[4:36:16]my employer
[4:36:18]yes
[4:36:20]describe
[4:36:22]what you were doing
[4:36:24]with
[4:36:26]those individuals so when I say those
[4:36:28]individuals I'm talking about former President Clinton
[4:36:30]Doug
[4:36:32]other folks that work with him
[4:36:34]yes there were loads of them
[4:36:36]all of them you know the team I don't need to give you
[4:36:38]all the names you have them
[4:36:40]at your fingertips and I can
[4:36:42]confirm if you give me names I'll
[4:36:44]say yes cause they're not all going to pop into my head
[4:36:46]right
[4:36:48]so I started
[4:36:50]spending a lot of time
[4:36:52]I don't want to characterize that
[4:36:54]I started spending time with
[4:36:56]the former president and with
[4:36:58]Doug and his team
[4:37:00]and the
[4:37:02]I had no
[4:37:04]purpose really other than
[4:37:07]I had
[4:37:11]I obviously offered something
[4:37:13]I don't know ideas
[4:37:15]I don't know
[4:37:18]anyway and
[4:37:20]to travel
[4:37:22]I don't remember if the first
[4:37:24]trip was Africa or how it went
[4:37:26]but at some point
[4:37:28]I think there was actually two trips but I'm not sure
[4:37:30]so it was to Europe
[4:37:32]and then to
[4:37:36]Africa I think maybe it was all
[4:37:38]one trip and at some point
[4:37:40]Mr
[4:37:42]Epstein said he didn't want
[4:37:44]to go on the trip and
[4:37:46]he was
[4:37:48]going somewhere else and he just left
[4:37:50]and I was like well
[4:37:52]okay and so I ended up
[4:37:54]doing the whole trip without
[4:37:56]Mr Epstein
[4:37:58]or his plane
[4:38:00]and when you were
[4:38:02]traveling with them
[4:38:04]what were the purposes of the
[4:38:06]trips like is this one
[4:38:08]I think these were all
[4:38:10]I think actually was the AIDS
[4:38:12]was one of the primary ones for his
[4:38:14]AIDS foundation
[4:38:16]when he was working to
[4:38:18]do that and
[4:38:20]they were always a humanitarian
[4:38:22]side to the trips
[4:38:25]and we went to Egypt and
[4:38:27]that was
[4:38:29]oh yeah
[4:38:31]so there so it sounds like you're
[4:38:33]describing one
[4:38:35]right now one trip with lots of
[4:38:37]stops it could be but I have a feeling
[4:38:39]that I went on other trips
[4:38:41]but I can't remember when you
[4:38:43]when you went on I went to
[4:38:45]London I went to London
[4:38:47]I don't know if that's the same trip
[4:38:49]when you went on these trips
[4:38:51]were you
[4:38:53]always on Mr Epstein's plane
[4:38:55]or did you sometimes accompany
[4:38:57]them on a different plane correct yes
[4:38:59]how many were on
[4:39:01]Mr Epstein's plane again
[4:39:03]I'm not holding you to exact but that was a full
[4:39:05]that was packed because there was a lot
[4:39:07]of secret service it took all the secret service
[4:39:09]as well so it was whatever the
[4:39:11]detail is for secret service
[4:39:13]it's a lot
[4:39:15]and on how many
[4:39:17]occasions besides the trip you just
[4:39:19]described were there other times
[4:39:21]when they used
[4:39:23]when President Clinton and
[4:39:25]the folks he was with used Mr
[4:39:27]Epstein's plane I
[4:39:29]think it was there was twice maybe
[4:39:31]there was that but it will reflect on the
[4:39:33]logs there won't be anything that's not on the logs
[4:39:35]that you have already so were you
[4:39:37]by the way responsible for the logs in any way
[4:39:39]you've seen the logs in the public and you
[4:39:41]have them in Discovery but over the years
[4:39:43]when you were working with or for
[4:39:45]Mr Epstein did you have access
[4:39:47]to the logs
[4:39:49]no never
[4:39:51]the pilots the log book
[4:39:53]was their personal log book I never
[4:39:55]even saw them have it I never saw them fill it
[4:39:57]in and then there was a second
[4:39:59]set of logs the
[4:40:01]flight
[4:40:05]manifests and I never saw
[4:40:07]those either I was never
[4:40:09]allowed I suppose
[4:40:11]to see
[4:40:13]do you
[4:40:16]know so do
[4:40:18]you know whether
[4:40:20]Mr Epstein had a separate
[4:40:22]relationship with with President
[4:40:24]Clinton
[4:40:26]different from the way you just described so different than
[4:40:28]than being with him
[4:40:30]with respect to his foundation or something like
[4:40:32]this I would say no
[4:40:36]when's the last time
[4:40:38]that you went on
[4:40:40]a trip or saw President Clinton
[4:40:42]I was in
[4:40:44]was late
[4:40:46]2000
[4:40:48]I don't know 16
[4:40:59]17 something
[4:41:01]it was in Los Angeles
[4:41:03]what was the purpose of that meeting
[4:41:05]he was hosting
[4:41:07]something or he was at an event
[4:41:09]and I was in May and I
[4:41:11]had dinner with him
[4:41:16]did you ever meet
[4:41:21]Secretary Clinton
[4:41:23]Hillary Clinton yes
[4:41:25]when did you meet her
[4:41:27]I want
[4:41:34]to say
[4:41:36]again please don't hold me to it but I want
[4:41:38]to say
[4:41:40]it was on
[4:41:42]a flight that came
[4:41:44]from
[4:41:46]the island from not from the island
[4:41:48]from the Nantucket or
[4:41:50]Martha's Vineyard back to New York
[4:41:52]is what I think
[4:41:54]I might be wrong okay so
[4:41:56]an east coast
[4:41:58]island like Nantucket or something like this
[4:42:00]yes not
[4:42:02]the ex president never came to the island
[4:42:04]and did you
[4:42:06]is that the only time that you met
[4:42:08]Hillary Clinton no
[4:42:10]I went to the house in Chappaqua
[4:42:12]a few times and why did you go to
[4:42:14]the house I was invited
[4:42:16]just to see
[4:42:18]President Clinton or Hillary
[4:42:20]Clinton or both or
[4:42:22]yeah I mean
[4:42:24]as a friend not
[4:42:26]there was no I don't remember any
[4:42:28]reason either was
[4:42:30]somehow I communicated that was
[4:42:32]in coming driving back past
[4:42:34]Chappaqua if they were home and stop in it's
[4:42:36]I know it sounds a little flippant
[4:42:38]but it could it could have been even
[4:42:40]something as and do you know
[4:42:42]whether Mr Epstein
[4:42:44]had knew or had a
[4:42:46]any sort of business dealings or
[4:42:48]associated with Hillary Clinton
[4:42:50]I would say no
[4:42:52]did you ever see them together
[4:42:54]no
[4:42:56]do you know whether
[4:42:58]Mr Epstein ever did any
[4:43:00]business transactions with
[4:43:02]the Clintons
[4:43:04]I'm not sure
[4:43:08]I don't know
[4:43:10]the answer that strictly
[4:43:12]because I was
[4:43:16]I was part of the beginning process
[4:43:18]of the Clinton Global Initiative
[4:43:20]and that
[4:43:22]was something that
[4:43:24]I helped with and that was
[4:43:26]me and
[4:43:28]Epstein may have helped me
[4:43:30]help them and in that
[4:43:32]context he may well have
[4:43:34]involved himself
[4:43:36]but only in the context of
[4:43:38]something that I was
[4:43:40]trying to do
[4:43:42]so when you say involved himself
[4:43:44]meaning like
[4:43:46]give money to the Clinton
[4:43:48]Global Initiative or something like this
[4:43:50]well so there's that
[4:43:52]I think he did do that and that I believe
[4:43:54]the money that he may have given could have been
[4:43:56]independent of me but
[4:43:58]I think it's just
[4:44:00]easier if I just tell you how it happened
[4:44:02]rather than it's otherwise
[4:44:04]sounds all odd and funky
[4:44:06]I went to
[4:44:08]Davos with former
[4:44:10]president and
[4:44:12]I
[4:44:14]have you been to
[4:44:17]Davos in what have you been
[4:44:19]to Davos I have not okay well you know
[4:44:21]it's a you know what it is right
[4:44:23]okay so
[4:44:25]and I was
[4:44:27]I thought that
[4:44:29]the former president should have
[4:44:31]his own Davos because
[4:44:33]it would be
[4:44:35]and they had it turned out that
[4:44:37]they had been thinking about it
[4:44:39]anyway and so we were talking about it
[4:44:41]and you know it's a
[4:44:43]very heavy lift to get something
[4:44:45]like that to go and
[4:44:47]I was friendly with
[4:44:49]one of the people who had
[4:44:51]I don't know
[4:44:53]if he was at the beginning of Davos
[4:44:55]but he was running Davos
[4:44:57]I don't know how to describe
[4:44:59]his actual role at Davos
[4:45:01]and I had conversations with him about what did
[4:45:03]he think you know
[4:45:05]just because I was having dinner with him
[4:45:07]about if Clinton
[4:45:09]could get something like that to go what was
[4:45:11]his thoughts and he was very very enthusiastic
[4:45:13]I mean he was like that's just an
[4:45:15]incredible idea so I put them together
[4:45:17]what's that person's name
[4:45:19]do you remember
[4:45:21]I can
[4:45:23]I just
[4:45:25]you said I didn't know if you knew if you
[4:45:27]remember his name I do but I just
[4:45:29]can't remember his name it will come to me
[4:45:31]it may come to me tomorrow but
[4:45:33]eventually these things like surface
[4:45:35]like in the middle of the night I was scribbling names
[4:45:37]that I couldn't remember from yesterday
[4:45:39]but his name will come to me
[4:45:41]and if not we can find it
[4:45:43]so you
[4:45:45]when the
[4:45:47]just still staying on your relationship with
[4:45:49]sorry
[4:45:51]your association with the
[4:45:53]Clintons
[4:45:55]you were part of the ramp up
[4:45:57]or the start up of the Clinton
[4:45:59]global initiative and helping them and supporting
[4:46:01]that effort
[4:46:03]I would say
[4:46:05]very central to that yes
[4:46:07]and Mr.
[4:46:09]Epstein
[4:46:14]was he part of the work around that
[4:46:16]or just in support
[4:46:18]of you he supported me
[4:46:21]to help them but then
[4:46:23]I think he may have tried to use that
[4:46:25]to insert himself in some way
[4:46:27]that would not have surprised me at all
[4:46:29]and I know that he
[4:46:31]was annoying
[4:46:33]in terms I could catch him on the phone
[4:46:35]and he wouldn't always agree with what I wanted to do
[4:46:37]it's not your idea
[4:46:39]I don't really care what you think but I
[4:46:41]didn't go over so well
[4:46:44]and
[4:46:46]I just want to say it wasn't my idea
[4:46:48]for his CGI
[4:46:50]it's not my idea
[4:46:52]they had had that idea before
[4:46:54]I just helped bring key personnel
[4:46:56]you're saying the idea of President Clinton
[4:46:58]having his own Davos
[4:47:00]I'm not owning that
[4:47:02]I'm trying to elevate myself
[4:47:04]in any form of importance
[4:47:06]I understand
[4:47:08]did you go to Davos with President
[4:47:10]Clinton more than once or just once?
[4:47:13]I can't remember
[4:47:15]once for sure and I think maybe twice
[4:47:17]but I don't remember
[4:47:20]did
[4:47:22]and you're not
[4:47:24]I think you said you don't
[4:47:26]you're not aware of President Clinton
[4:47:28]ever going to the island
[4:47:30]he never went he absolutely never went
[4:47:32]and I can be sure of that because there's no way he would have gone
[4:47:34]I don't believe there's any way
[4:47:36]that he would have gone to the island
[4:47:38]had I not been there
[4:47:40]he had an independent friendship
[4:47:42]if you will with Epstein
[4:47:44]did he speak? did he go on the boat?
[4:47:46]yes but that's very different
[4:47:48]from going to spend time on the island
[4:47:50]plus the story as told
[4:47:52]is so patently
[4:47:54]absurd that I flew him
[4:47:56]in the helicopter
[4:47:58]I am a helicopter pilot that is true
[4:48:00]but the notion of me flying
[4:48:02]an ex-president on a machine
[4:48:04]terrifies me
[4:48:06]I would never even take that responsibility
[4:48:08]no
[4:48:10]did you ever
[4:48:12]go with President Clinton to
[4:48:14]any of Mr. Epstein's
[4:48:16]properties
[4:48:18]so like New Mexico
[4:48:20]Palm Beach or in New York
[4:48:22]I don't
[4:48:24]have no memory of him
[4:48:26]in any of those places
[4:48:28]when you were in London with President Clinton
[4:48:30]did you
[4:48:32]did you ever go to your
[4:48:34]flat with him?
[4:48:36]I don't think he did
[4:48:38]I don't think so
[4:48:40]because
[4:48:42]he wouldn't even be able to carry all his
[4:48:44]secret service with him
[4:48:46]I don't think so
[4:48:48]do you know
[4:48:53]we talked a little about
[4:48:55]the Duchess of York
[4:48:57]Sarah Ferguson yesterday
[4:49:03]when's the last time
[4:49:05]you saw her?
[4:49:07]were you
[4:49:09]with her
[4:49:11]or hanging out with her
[4:49:13]socializing with her
[4:49:15]in the 90s, 2000s, both?
[4:49:19]I don't know
[4:49:22]if she liked me very much
[4:49:31]I think
[4:49:33]my friendship with her
[4:49:35]ex-husband
[4:49:37]sometimes she
[4:49:43]really did like me
[4:49:45]so maybe a friend of me
[4:49:47]I don't know
[4:49:49]it was always friendly when we were together
[4:49:51]but I think that there was some latent hostility
[4:49:53]is that
[4:49:55]something you've heard since everything
[4:49:57]came out or along the way you felt that way?
[4:49:59]no, that's how I felt
[4:50:01]that is a characterization of myself
[4:50:03]that's how I felt about her
[4:50:05]I was always friendly
[4:50:07]with her
[4:50:09]I've seen her
[4:50:11]many many times
[4:50:13]and she's also super super close
[4:50:15]with other people
[4:50:17]we were very good friends with in England
[4:50:19]I think that
[4:50:22]I think that she liked Mr. Epstein
[4:50:24]why do you think that?
[4:50:28]my female intuition
[4:50:30]oh, a letter
[4:50:35]no, I don't remember it
[4:50:37]well, they
[4:50:39]it's possible
[4:50:41]that there's things
[4:50:43]I know that there is discovery
[4:50:45]but I don't recall
[4:50:47]but I think she had a thing
[4:50:49]okay
[4:50:51]did
[4:50:53]there's some actors
[4:50:55]or some folks from Hollywood
[4:50:57]that I want to ask you about
[4:50:59]just to understand whether
[4:51:01]you knew them or Mr. Epstein knew them
[4:51:03]Chris Tucker? yes
[4:51:05]how did you know Mr. Tucker? I think
[4:51:07]only from that flight to Africa
[4:51:09]but I do think that
[4:51:11]you say that flight to Africa, the one we were just talking about
[4:51:13]yes, yes, sorry
[4:51:15]sorry, go ahead, yep
[4:51:17]but I also think that
[4:51:19]they kept a little bit in touch
[4:51:21]and I think
[4:51:23]they met or
[4:51:25]I have a memory of him
[4:51:27]maybe in LA, I don't know
[4:51:29]I think they sort of loosely stayed in touch
[4:51:31]I don't know how to say that
[4:51:33]do you know Mr. Tucker
[4:51:35]besides that flight?
[4:51:37]no
[4:51:39]and do you know whether
[4:51:41]when you say you think that
[4:51:43]they kept in touch, you mean you think that
[4:51:45]Mr. Epstein and Mr. Tucker
[4:51:47]they may have, I didn't, but he might have
[4:51:49]I'm sure
[4:51:51]Kevin Spacey?
[4:51:53]I know him also from
[4:51:55]that same flight
[4:51:57]aside from that flight, do you know him
[4:51:59]from any other thing? no
[4:52:01]Naomi Campbell?
[4:52:03]yes, I do know Naomi
[4:52:05]and I knew her before I met
[4:52:07]Mr. Epstein
[4:52:09]and Mr
[4:52:11]former president Clinton
[4:52:13]do you know whether Mr. Epstein
[4:52:15]separately knew
[4:52:17]Ms. Campbell?
[4:52:19]I think he probably met her
[4:52:21]through me, that
[4:52:23]I imagine
[4:52:25]and so
[4:52:27]for those three, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Spacey
[4:52:29]and Ms. Campbell
[4:52:31]did they ever travel
[4:52:33]to any of Mr. Epstein's
[4:52:35]properties, the island or New
[4:52:37]Mexico?
[4:52:39]Mr. Tucker, well, not to my knowledge
[4:52:41]Mr. Tucker or Mr.
[4:52:43]Spacey
[4:52:45]Naomi Campbell may have
[4:52:47]to where?
[4:52:49]she may have gone, well she certainly, well
[4:52:51]I believe she
[4:52:53]visited him in Palm Beach
[4:52:55]and I believe she may have gone
[4:52:57]to the island, and she may have gone
[4:52:59]to see his house in New York
[4:53:01]whether she went to New Mexico
[4:53:03]or Paris as well maybe
[4:53:05]they were friends, or friendly
[4:53:07]were you
[4:53:09]what you just said she may have
[4:53:11]were you on those trips?
[4:53:13]I don't have any independent memory
[4:53:15]of that, so I'm not sure
[4:53:17]I don't think so
[4:53:19]do you know
[4:53:21]her relationship, her friendship
[4:53:23]her, making me use your
[4:53:25]word
[4:53:27]her
[4:53:29]friendship
[4:53:31]with Mr. Epstein was independent of me
[4:53:33]okay, but you also had a separate
[4:53:35]friendship with her
[4:53:37]before you met Mr. Epstein?
[4:53:39]I did
[4:53:41]Larry Summers, the former secretary
[4:53:43]of the treasury, do you know that person?
[4:53:45]I did, yes
[4:53:47]I met Mr. Summers through Mr.
[4:53:49]Epstein
[4:53:51]and the same question, just
[4:53:53]generally time period, are you talking about
[4:53:55]early 2000s, 90s
[4:53:57]after that?
[4:53:59]I honestly really
[4:54:01]don't know, I did want to say something
[4:54:03]I forgot that there was
[4:54:05]yesterday you asked me about
[4:54:07]Mr. Epstein's properties, he had a
[4:54:09]rental in Boston as well
[4:54:11]but not for very long, but it was
[4:54:13]another place that I had to put together
[4:54:15]and I only went with him
[4:54:17]once, and he would go there independently
[4:54:19]of me, I would not go with him
[4:54:21]was that in the 90s?
[4:54:23]I think it was, yes
[4:54:25]Mr. Summers
[4:54:27]do you know
[4:54:29]what
[4:54:31]his relationship was with Mr.
[4:54:33]Epstein, business, personal, both
[4:54:35]or don't you know?
[4:54:37]I think he spoke to
[4:54:39]Mr. Epstein about business a lot, but I think
[4:54:41]they were friends, they were friendly
[4:54:43]Do you know whether Mr. Summers
[4:54:45]ever travelled on Mr. Epstein's planes
[4:54:47]to any of the properties
[4:54:49]that Mr. Epstein owned? He may have, but
[4:54:51]I don't think if he did I was on
[4:54:53]any of the flights
[4:54:55]there's another issue, I travelled so
[4:54:57]so much that I really
[4:54:59]the flights just blur
[4:55:01]I understand
[4:55:03]George Soros?
[4:55:05]I don't think he knew him
[4:55:07]I did, but I don't think he did
[4:55:09]How did you know Mr. Soros?
[4:55:11]I was friends with his kids
[4:55:13]Which kids?
[4:55:15]John
[4:55:17]and
[4:55:22]I can't think of his
[4:55:24]other child, I can't think
[4:55:26]I've lost his name
[4:55:30]I met him
[4:55:34]but just socially
[4:55:36]he may not remember
[4:55:38]even having met me, I was excited to meet him
[4:55:40]When are you thinking, when would you have met him?
[4:55:42]If I met him
[4:55:44]I think it was either at an event or at his
[4:55:46]kids, it wouldn't have been at his house
[4:55:48]an event, I think
[4:55:50]in the Hamptons I met him
[4:55:52]he was staying at somebody's house
[4:55:54]if my memory serves
[4:55:56]What was your relationship?
[4:55:58]How did you know his kids?
[4:56:00]I was
[4:56:02]out and about in New York
[4:56:04]a lot
[4:56:06]So just socially?
[4:56:08]Just socially, yes
[4:56:10]and yeah
[4:56:12]just socially, I think
[4:56:14]Do you know whether Mr. Soros or his kids
[4:56:16]ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes?
[4:56:18]I don't think so
[4:56:20]Never visit either the island or New Mexico
[4:56:22]or Paris? No
[4:56:24]So
[4:56:29]we tried to
[4:56:31]to identify
[4:56:33]names that have come up either
[4:56:35]publicly or
[4:56:37]in other lawsuits
[4:56:39]are there any names that you
[4:56:41]that come to mind
[4:56:43]that we haven't, we've talked about a lot of names
[4:56:45]there's some folks that
[4:56:47]you think we've forgotten to ask you about
[4:56:49]Well you asked me about
[4:56:51]names and I have some names
[4:56:53]and I just want to give you some context
[4:56:55]for the names as well
[4:56:57]So we talked about Elizabeth Johnson yesterday
[4:56:59]she had a boyfriend
[4:57:01]and he was Frederick Fekai
[4:57:03]the hairdresser
[4:57:05]and he and Epstein were
[4:57:07]friendly, very friendly
[4:57:09]And then what time pair
[4:57:11]are you talking about?
[4:57:13]Like 90s or
[4:57:21]2000s or both?
[4:57:23]I think the 2000s actually, for that
[4:57:25]You can date that because
[4:57:27]I think he probably knew
[4:57:29]Frederick before he dated
[4:57:31]Elizabeth
[4:57:33]But
[4:57:35]And when you say they were very friendly
[4:57:37]did they go, did they travel together?
[4:57:39]I don't know if they traveled together but
[4:57:41]I mean Epstein
[4:57:43]didn't go out very much, well I mean
[4:57:45]he did go out but not, and sometimes
[4:57:47]if he did I think he would go out
[4:57:49]and maybe see Frederick
[4:57:51]and then there was
[4:57:53]I mean he had a bunch of
[4:57:55]guys that he would
[4:57:57]I would know
[4:57:59]that he would see or meet
[4:58:01]but he really
[4:58:03]I guess now I'm not sure he had any friends
[4:58:05]I don't know but
[4:58:07]Ok, what other names?
[4:58:09]Ok so
[4:58:11]Henry Cherokee
[4:58:13]who had an island near his
[4:58:15]Henry was a financier
[4:58:17]he was the guy who cornered the silver market back in the day
[4:58:19]He had an island
[4:58:21]in the Caribbean near
[4:58:23]In the British Virgin Islands
[4:58:25]and there was Branson's Island there
[4:58:27]I know that there's an allegation
[4:58:29]that they met
[4:58:31]I think
[4:58:33]I think I remember that I went to
[4:58:35]Richard Branson's island with Mr. Epstein
[4:58:37]and maybe he went
[4:58:39]another time
[4:58:41]but I wouldn't characterize Richard Branson
[4:58:43]and him as friends but
[4:58:45]he did go and I think I went with him
[4:58:47]Do you know whether Mr. Branson
[4:58:49]ever came to Mr. Epstein's island?
[4:58:51]If he did I was not there
[4:58:53]Ok
[4:58:55]Sorry but it's possible
[4:58:57]Who else?
[4:58:59]Marvin Minsky
[4:59:03]He had a group of scientists
[4:59:05]that he was very very friendly with
[4:59:07]all centered around Harvard
[4:59:09]so
[4:59:11]I remember him Martin Novak
[4:59:13]who's a mathematician
[4:59:15]Stephen Jay Gould
[4:59:19]I don't know if Stephen Jay Gould came through the
[4:59:21]Harvard angle but I know that
[4:59:23]there was a
[4:59:25]Epstein would have dinners
[4:59:29]at the house
[4:59:31]that I was tasked to organize
[4:59:33]and the scientists
[4:59:35]were a very major component of that
[4:59:37]they weren't
[4:59:39]social dinners as much as
[4:59:41]they were scientific
[4:59:43]he would discuss
[4:59:45]but if you were in
[4:59:47]the area of brain
[4:59:49]cognition
[4:59:51]or
[4:59:53]he would invite them to the house
[4:59:55]and they would come, all of them
[4:59:57]any name you can name me
[4:59:59]they would be there
[5:00:01]Let's talk about that
[5:00:03]talk, that relation
[5:00:05]those associations
[5:00:07]or relationships he had with the
[5:00:09]mathematicians and with Harvard
[5:00:11]and I think with MIT
[5:00:13]to some extent as well
[5:00:15]from what you observed
[5:00:17]what's the
[5:00:19]reason behind him having
[5:00:21]developing
[5:00:25]those ties with
[5:00:27]Harvard, with MIT and with certain professors
[5:00:29]and others associated with those institutions
[5:00:31]He really
[5:00:33]was profoundly
[5:00:35]interested in that area of science
[5:00:37]and in the brain
[5:00:39]and in
[5:00:41]if you were in Stephen Jay Gould
[5:00:43]or
[5:00:45]the major scientist on
[5:00:47]happiness, it came
[5:00:49]I believe from a genuine
[5:00:51]area of interest, not from anything
[5:00:57]How did he
[5:00:59]become friends with them
[5:01:01]How was he able to spend time with them
[5:01:03]meaning
[5:01:05]did he donate to the university
[5:01:07]and they were kind of
[5:01:09]it was mandatory fun for them or did he have
[5:01:11]relations with them where he would
[5:01:13]host them
[5:01:15]I don't know if the chicken or the egg came first
[5:01:17]but
[5:01:19]when I met him first
[5:01:21]he was already doing a lot of this stuff
[5:01:23]this is not, I've read
[5:01:25]this is why I'm saying this
[5:01:27]I was not responsible for these
[5:01:29]for this area of interest
[5:01:31]I mean I certainly, sorry just
[5:01:33]to balance a second before it slips my mind
[5:01:35]and I leave something out
[5:01:37]there was an institute
[5:01:39]in New Mexico called
[5:01:41]anyone
[5:01:45]the institute
[5:01:47]of, it's very famous
[5:01:49]we're not talking about Alamos
[5:01:51]anyway, alright, there's a very famous
[5:01:53]institute in New Mexico, you can look it up
[5:01:55]it'll come to you the minute you put it in your computer
[5:01:57]and there
[5:01:59]I had some of the biggest brains ever
[5:02:01]those, that relationship
[5:02:03]came through me
[5:02:05]that's me
[5:02:07]and that is because my father
[5:02:09]was
[5:02:13]one of the major scientific
[5:02:15]hit up my family fortune
[5:02:17]when I had one
[5:02:19]came from scientific publishing
[5:02:21]and when
[5:02:23]it started from
[5:02:25]the thing that you were asking me yesterday
[5:02:27]my father was in the Second World War
[5:02:29]in 1922
[5:02:31]and he won the military cross
[5:02:33]and then he actually did become part of intelligence
[5:02:35]back in the war
[5:02:37]and his job was to
[5:02:39]interrogate German scientists
[5:02:41]and prisoners of war
[5:02:43]and then
[5:02:45]he partied into a business with
[5:02:47]Springer Verlag and then
[5:02:49]into Pergamon Press which was the
[5:02:51]scientific journals business
[5:02:53]and he had an interest
[5:02:55]he believed that
[5:02:57]its knowledge is what would prevent
[5:02:59]war and the biggest scientific
[5:03:01]discoveries
[5:03:03]many of them coming from
[5:03:05]the eastern block
[5:03:07]and that's how we have the relationship
[5:03:09]with Santa Fe Institute
[5:03:11]and Murray Gellman specifically
[5:03:13]and I introduced Epstein
[5:03:15]to Murray Gellman
[5:03:17]and
[5:03:19]Murray Gellman was there
[5:03:21]and Murray Gellman
[5:03:23]and Epstein got along very very well
[5:03:25]and he was the man of the block
[5:03:27]so
[5:03:29]do you know whether
[5:03:31]so while you
[5:03:33]when you meet
[5:03:35]Mr. Epstein in the early 90s
[5:03:37]continuing on so not what he had done before
[5:03:39]did he
[5:03:41]why do you think
[5:03:45]from what you saw or what you heard
[5:03:47]he had the relationship
[5:03:49]or wanted to have the relationship that he had with Harvard
[5:03:51]and with MIT
[5:03:53]so I think that
[5:03:55]if he didn't come with Wexner
[5:03:57]I'm not sure
[5:03:59]but that's something that I think
[5:04:01]that Wexner maybe had a relationship with Harvard
[5:04:03]and that he used that relationship
[5:04:05]to
[5:04:07]I believe he funded a lot
[5:04:09]and if he didn't
[5:04:11]his clients of which Wexner obviously was one
[5:04:13]would fund
[5:04:15]and he would then make
[5:04:17]he would arrange the fund
[5:04:22]or organize the fund
[5:04:24]we'll take a break in a minute
[5:04:26]but just to kind of set us up
[5:04:28]for what we're going to talk about next
[5:04:32]we talked yesterday morning about
[5:04:34]Mr. Epstein's kind of
[5:04:36]business and how he
[5:04:38]had money
[5:04:40]did he seem to live
[5:04:42]beyond his means
[5:04:44]as far as what he was making
[5:04:46]so did you ever get the
[5:04:48]sense while you were with him
[5:04:50]that it was
[5:04:52]suspicious or
[5:04:54]curious how he was able
[5:04:56]to have
[5:04:58]the funds to buy
[5:05:00]two planes, an island, New Mexico
[5:05:02]the ranch
[5:05:04]almost unlimited funds
[5:05:06]You said it perfectly
[5:05:08]I thought it was astonishing
[5:05:10]but I didn't have any
[5:05:12]reason to believe
[5:05:14]that it came from anything
[5:05:16]nefarious
[5:05:18]I saw him work
[5:05:20]I never saw him really do anything
[5:05:22]he'd be on the phone, there's that
[5:05:24]and he had a lot of meetings
[5:05:26]but he had a lot of accounts
[5:05:28]and he dealt with
[5:05:30]pretty much every financier
[5:05:32]that you could care to mention
[5:05:34]and if I could have
[5:05:36]access to the names I'd be able to tell you
[5:05:38]which ones, I just don't remember
[5:05:40]them all, but in every bank
[5:05:42]Goldman, Lehman
[5:05:44]all of them
[5:05:47]to my mind
[5:05:49]anyway
[5:05:51]most of the major businessmen
[5:05:53]he was in the council of foreign relations
[5:05:55]so you had access
[5:05:57]that's an extraordinary list
[5:05:59]of people, it just is
[5:06:01]and then he
[5:06:03]you asked me about his
[5:06:05]so I thought about it last night
[5:06:07]how to try and explain what it was
[5:06:09]and I think the best thing is to focus only on Wexner's business
[5:06:11]so I was present
[5:06:13]for some of their meetings
[5:06:15]in some of their business
[5:06:17]and I listened
[5:06:19]and so
[5:06:21]things that I personally
[5:06:23]recollect and I know I heard
[5:06:25]was that he would
[5:06:27]when I told you yesterday I think
[5:06:29]that no detail was too small
[5:06:31]so he would do the contracts
[5:06:33]with the staff I think
[5:06:35]and I saw that myself
[5:06:37]and he also
[5:06:39]organised all the trusts for all the children
[5:06:41]so if Wexner had
[5:06:43]not if he did, he did have
[5:06:45]children, so every time there was a child
[5:06:47]there was a trust for that child
[5:06:49]and these were complex
[5:06:51]financial structures
[5:06:53]that would contain
[5:06:55]stocks of
[5:06:57]the various businesses, he restructured
[5:06:59]when I was there
[5:07:01]Wexner's business in its entirety
[5:07:03]as I recollect
[5:07:05]and then not only that but there were business interests
[5:07:07]so Wexner owned
[5:07:09]or built or designed
[5:07:11]I don't quite know how to characterise it
[5:07:13]but New Albany which is a centre outside
[5:07:15]of Ohio
[5:07:17]Columbus, Ohio specifically
[5:07:19]and he built
[5:07:21]I remember this conversation
[5:07:23]he built himself a very
[5:07:25]large house, truly enormous
[5:07:27]it's one of the biggest private homes I've ever been to
[5:07:29]and he built
[5:07:31]all the houses around him and I'm like
[5:07:33]this is so random, where would you do that
[5:07:35]and he said to me well because I want to make sure
[5:07:37]that the people around me, my friends
[5:07:39]they want my friends around me and my neighbours
[5:07:41]and I was like well whatever
[5:07:43]OK, you know
[5:07:45]I've been around
[5:07:47]enormous wealth my whole life
[5:07:49]and I've like, at some point
[5:07:51]I just say OK whatever, I get it
[5:07:53]and I don't, and so that's what he did
[5:07:55]but Epstein ran New Albany
[5:07:57]which included a country club
[5:07:59]and a golf club and a
[5:08:01]I mean gosh your boss is one of the all time
[5:08:03]great, you know, businessmen in this
[5:08:05]area, you know what that is
[5:08:07]and he certainly does
[5:08:09]so there'd be that and there was a business, business
[5:08:11]that Epstein, well he told me he owned it
[5:08:13]of course, I can't say that
[5:08:15]for sure because I don't know but
[5:08:17]it's a sports thing
[5:08:19]Riddell, is that a business? Riddell's
[5:08:21]I thought about it last night, it's red
[5:08:23]and it had
[5:08:25]hats, helmets
[5:08:29]Riddell's? Rydell
[5:08:31]yeah, Rydell's
[5:08:33]now how he owned that
[5:08:35]well he told me he owned it
[5:08:37]but how he owned that, but that was before
[5:08:39]I think I came in and he had it
[5:08:41]or he said he did
[5:08:43]and he had other businesses
[5:08:45]he had, I know this notion that
[5:08:47]he did nothing and he just was a grifter
[5:08:49]and what not, okay
[5:08:51]I'm not going to say that's not true
[5:08:53]but it's not what I saw and it's not what I
[5:08:55]believe is true
[5:08:57]not because it couldn't have been
[5:08:59]that he didn't grift
[5:09:01]or whatever the word is of people
[5:09:03]but I saw
[5:09:05]what I thought looked like real work
[5:09:08]well why don't we take a break
[5:09:12]alright the time is now 10.35
[5:09:14]and we'll take a break
[5:09:16]we are resuming from break
[5:09:20]and the time is 10.49
[5:09:22]on Friday, July 25th
[5:09:24]we've talked
[5:09:38]around this issue
[5:09:40]but talked about it a little bit
[5:09:42]I want to spend the next hour or so
[5:09:44]or however long it takes
[5:09:48]when
[5:09:51]I want to focus
[5:09:53]exclusively on
[5:09:55]Epstein
[5:09:57]and his criminal conduct
[5:09:59]with respect to women
[5:10:08]you said yesterday a couple times
[5:10:10]that you now recognize
[5:10:12]or think that there were things
[5:10:14]that he did that you didn't know about
[5:10:16]and that he
[5:10:18]kept from you or that you didn't see
[5:10:20]what did you see
[5:10:23]so you said yesterday
[5:10:25]and I'm not
[5:10:27]I'm not trying to put words in your mouth
[5:10:29]at some point he was getting massages
[5:10:31]7 days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day
[5:10:33]women have said
[5:10:37]that were there
[5:10:39]that say they were there giving him massages
[5:10:41]said that
[5:10:43]those included
[5:10:45]some sort of sexual conduct
[5:10:47]however you define that in the broadest sense
[5:10:49]not just a
[5:10:51]traditional massage regularly
[5:10:53]so what do you
[5:10:56]what did you see and hear at the time
[5:11:00]and then I think
[5:11:02]aside from what you saw and heard at the time
[5:11:06]now that you've
[5:11:08]been through what you've been through
[5:11:10]and heard people say what they've said
[5:11:12]what do you
[5:11:14]where does that leave you in your mind with what happened
[5:11:18]so I saw Epstein
[5:11:22]with
[5:11:24]women
[5:11:26]what I mean by that is
[5:11:28]he would have
[5:11:30]women around him
[5:11:32]or women on the plane
[5:11:34]or women in his house
[5:11:36]that's how I'm
[5:11:38]explaining that
[5:11:40]those women were
[5:11:46]very interested
[5:11:48]my characterisation of
[5:11:50]the relationships
[5:11:52]between all women
[5:11:54]that I saw with him
[5:11:56]and him was
[5:11:58]characterised by
[5:12:02]their interest in him
[5:12:04]as I would see it
[5:12:06]and by that I mean
[5:12:08]I never saw
[5:12:10]anybody
[5:12:12]who didn't want to be with him
[5:12:14]be with him
[5:12:16]maybe socially or whatever
[5:12:18]I never saw anybody
[5:12:20]under any form of duress
[5:12:22]in any type of situation
[5:12:24]where they were
[5:12:26]as I would characterise it
[5:12:28]looking uncomfortable or in any way
[5:12:30]depressed
[5:12:32]in the entire time I was with him
[5:12:34]or travelled with him
[5:12:36]I never saw that
[5:12:38]so any time I saw anybody with him
[5:12:40]they were
[5:12:42]happy to be with him
[5:12:44]he would ask people
[5:12:46]all the time
[5:12:48]whoever you were to massage his feet
[5:12:50]he'd be sitting there
[5:12:52]and he'd have somebody massage his feet
[5:12:54]or squeeze his shoulders
[5:12:56]I saw that
[5:12:58]it was an ubiquitous
[5:13:00]interaction
[5:13:02]if you will
[5:13:04]I did see that
[5:13:06]I saw physicality
[5:13:10]but not anything
[5:13:12]that was
[5:13:16]had a character
[5:13:18]anything that looked
[5:13:20]aggressive I suppose
[5:13:22]to define that
[5:13:24]I never saw an aggressive move
[5:13:26]I never saw anything that was
[5:13:28]non-consensual
[5:13:30]so if he
[5:13:32]well maybe they didn't
[5:13:34]I never saw anything that looked like
[5:13:36]they didn't like the hug
[5:13:38]I never saw
[5:13:40]what I would characterise as anything
[5:13:42]that was unconsensual
[5:13:44]did you see
[5:13:46]did you see
[5:13:48]him
[5:13:50]either receiving
[5:13:52]or participating in
[5:13:54]sexual conduct during massages
[5:13:56]understanding you never saw
[5:13:58]something non-consensual
[5:14:00]did you see him
[5:14:02]engaged in sexual conduct during massages
[5:14:04]well you could define
[5:14:06]sexual conduct as in
[5:14:08]I did see women who could have been
[5:14:10]less than
[5:14:12]normally clad for a massage
[5:14:14]but especially on the island
[5:14:16]where they would be in a bikini
[5:14:18]or possibly even topless
[5:14:20]I did see that
[5:14:22]yes I agree
[5:14:24]that's one area
[5:14:27]so women who were either
[5:14:29]not clothed or
[5:14:31]topless with just the bottom
[5:14:33]on
[5:14:35]but beyond that did you see
[5:14:37]as part of that him
[5:14:39]touching them and again I'm not talking about
[5:14:41]consent or not consent or age
[5:14:43]I'm saying
[5:14:45]there's multiple
[5:14:47]dozens and dozens of
[5:14:49]women who have said that
[5:14:51]they were
[5:14:53]engaged in
[5:14:55]sexual contact
[5:14:57]and I agree there's a broad range of
[5:14:59]how that can be defined
[5:15:01]but defining it in the broadest of terms
[5:15:03]I saw him being physical
[5:15:05]I did see that but nothing
[5:15:07]that was not consensual
[5:15:09]and to address the issue of the
[5:15:11]large number of women who today
[5:15:13]say that he
[5:15:15]was not consensual or coercive
[5:15:17]with them
[5:15:22]I'm not
[5:15:26]sure
[5:15:28]in my mind I sort of have to characterize
[5:15:30]the two distinct areas
[5:15:32]there's one where is the women who are
[5:15:34]not of age
[5:15:36]therefore anything with them is immediately
[5:15:38]unconsensual
[5:15:40]so let's start
[5:15:42]and I want to define anyone who's under age
[5:15:44]versus anybody who's over age
[5:15:46]because I do think that there's a very significant
[5:15:48]differential between the two
[5:15:50]so does the law
[5:15:52]I don't mean that
[5:15:54]I agree with you
[5:15:56]so I want to deal with the thing which is really
[5:15:58]why we're here
[5:16:00]not that I'm not going to deal with the other but I just want to make
[5:16:02]a distinction with underage
[5:16:04]because there's nothing about that that's right
[5:16:06]I never saw anything
[5:16:10]with anybody
[5:16:12]who was
[5:16:14]certainly
[5:16:16]to be categorical
[5:16:18]from my trial
[5:16:20]let's deal with that because that's something that I can
[5:16:22]say in
[5:16:24]I never saw that with them at all
[5:16:26]and I would say that
[5:16:28]as described
[5:16:30]anyway in my trial did not happen
[5:16:32]as described
[5:16:34]I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein
[5:16:36]did not do those things
[5:16:38]I'm not casting
[5:16:40]those, I don't feel comfortable
[5:16:42]saying that today given what I now
[5:16:44]know to be true so I'm not here to
[5:16:46]defend him but what I can say
[5:16:48]is that I did not participate
[5:16:50]in that activity
[5:16:52]so let's
[5:16:54]divide this into two areas
[5:16:56]maybe there's more but we'll start with two areas
[5:16:58]one is there was testimony
[5:17:00]and there's certainly been depositions
[5:17:02]and public statements that
[5:17:04]some of these
[5:17:06]young women
[5:17:08]had conversations with you about
[5:17:10]their age so for example
[5:17:12]conversations about the fact
[5:17:14]that they were in high school
[5:17:16]or conversations about the fact that they wanted to go to
[5:17:18]college one day which would necessarily
[5:17:20]mean
[5:17:22]not necessarily but would be more likely
[5:17:24]to mean that they were in high school to talk
[5:17:26]to you about that and so
[5:17:28]were there
[5:17:30]were there women that you knew
[5:17:32]were underage
[5:17:34]and I say that because that's
[5:17:36]different than whether
[5:17:38]they were sexually
[5:17:40]abused in any way by
[5:17:42]Mr. Epstein just merely their
[5:17:44]age and going to
[5:17:46]give him a massage
[5:17:48]No, I never knew that and I
[5:17:50]I can categorically
[5:17:52]state that had
[5:17:54]any child
[5:17:56]said to me that they were
[5:17:58]14, 15, 16
[5:18:00]maybe not 17 because 17 in England
[5:18:02]if someone had said they were 17
[5:18:04]I've read
[5:18:06]so much that that did happen
[5:18:08]I would never
[5:18:10]have committed such a thing I would never
[5:18:12]even know what I would have done
[5:18:14]So some of the
[5:18:16]I think even someone who testified at trial
[5:18:18]that certainly publicly talked about
[5:18:20]was as young as 14
[5:18:22]when
[5:18:24]she was introduced to Mr.
[5:18:26]Epstein
[5:18:28]in your mind today
[5:18:34]you don't
[5:18:36]you kind of reject that
[5:18:38]that happened that you saw that meaning
[5:18:40]you don't recall any
[5:18:42]obviously under 18 woman coming
[5:18:44]to give him a massage
[5:18:46]Well I believe you're talking about Jane and I'm very
[5:18:48]happy to address that
[5:18:50]I actually don't think that
[5:18:52]the testimony is correct
[5:18:54]I don't believe
[5:18:56]I just wanted to help you
[5:18:58]I don't want to get into it
[5:19:00]I don't want to go there
[5:19:02]I'm not going to do that
[5:19:04]but I believe that what took place
[5:19:06]with a lot of these people is that there was a slide
[5:19:08]so there was
[5:19:10]a zone
[5:19:12]and
[5:19:14]he did meet her and I did meet her
[5:19:16]I knew that she was a young child
[5:19:18]I knew that she was
[5:19:20]not an adult
[5:19:22]but I don't believe he met her till she was 16
[5:19:24]so I'm not
[5:19:26]doing a he said she said
[5:19:28]I'm not doing that because
[5:19:30]that's not what we're here for
[5:19:32]but he didn't meet her till she was 16
[5:19:34]and
[5:19:36]the entire testimony
[5:19:38]of the 14, 15 and 16 year old
[5:19:40]is therefore
[5:19:42]not accurate
[5:19:44]did I meet her when she was 16
[5:19:46]with her mother? I absolutely did
[5:19:48]and did I know that she was young? I absolutely did
[5:19:50]but everything that took place
[5:19:52]that was alleged
[5:19:54]at trial
[5:19:56]at the 14, 15 and 16
[5:19:58]is not accurate
[5:20:04]there's testimony
[5:20:06]I'm using testimony in the broadest sense
[5:20:08]some of this is just public statements
[5:20:10]or something that's come out in civil lawsuits
[5:20:12]about
[5:20:14]you and Mr. Epstein
[5:20:16]giving like an 18
[5:20:18]year turning 18 birthday card
[5:20:20]to somebody which again
[5:20:22]if true would by definition
[5:20:24]mean you knew that she was under 18
[5:20:26]do you recall doing that?
[5:20:28]I do not
[5:20:30]no memory of that at all
[5:20:34]and I believe that would be
[5:20:38]the person that
[5:20:40]called herself Kate has now announced
[5:20:42]herself in her own podcast
[5:20:44]who she really is her name is
[5:20:46]so I did not meet
[5:20:48]until actually she was either 20 or 21
[5:20:50]so
[5:20:52]it would be very hard for me to have given her
[5:20:54]an 18 birthday card
[5:20:56]and the testimony
[5:20:58]that slid
[5:21:00]back
[5:21:02]do you accept that at some point
[5:21:04]and we talked about this yesterday about how
[5:21:06]Mr. Epstein changed
[5:21:08]but at some point Mr. Epstein definitely
[5:21:10]preferred younger women
[5:21:12]I accept
[5:21:14]and I think you said yesterday
[5:21:16]but say it again since we're talking about it
[5:21:18]is that something that you in your mind
[5:21:20]one of the areas where he
[5:21:22]changed from when you first met him
[5:21:24]until later
[5:21:26]I just also want to be clear
[5:21:28]I never understood
[5:21:30]that change to encompass
[5:21:32]children
[5:21:34]I did see from when I met him
[5:21:36]he was involved
[5:21:38]friends with
[5:21:40]however you want to characterize it with women
[5:21:42]who were in their 20s
[5:21:44]and then the slide
[5:21:47]to 18
[5:21:49]younger looking women
[5:21:51]but I never considered
[5:21:53]that
[5:21:55]this would encompass
[5:21:57]criminal behavior
[5:22:01]and so
[5:22:03]when you read
[5:22:05]I guess two different
[5:22:07]times right one was during the Florida
[5:22:09]investigation when there were
[5:22:11]eventually
[5:22:13]public statements from some of
[5:22:15]these
[5:22:17]these now women who testified
[5:22:19]about what they did with Mr. Epstein
[5:22:21]when they were under 18
[5:22:23]at that point
[5:22:27]did you realize or did you think to yourself
[5:22:29]this happened
[5:22:31]or this could have happened I missed it or
[5:22:33]or were you
[5:22:35]at that point still in the mindset
[5:22:37]that they were either
[5:22:39]not telling the truth or were not
[5:22:41]remembering what happened
[5:22:43]the way that accurately
[5:22:45]that's a very fair question
[5:22:47]so I think that
[5:22:49]my
[5:22:51]view of this
[5:22:53]at that time
[5:22:55]call it as contemporaneously as
[5:22:57]it did because I don't think that stuff came
[5:22:59]out in public I
[5:23:01]I mean I may have read things but I
[5:23:03]don't my first real memory
[5:23:05]of that is at the trial but
[5:23:07]my viewpoint
[5:23:09]if you will was
[5:23:11]set
[5:23:13]from the minute that
[5:23:15]lied in her
[5:23:17]civil deposition and I could
[5:23:19]never recover from that because
[5:23:21]which liar what are you referring to
[5:23:23]her entire
[5:23:27]characterization
[5:23:29]of now I
[5:23:31]I don't remember how she came
[5:23:33]whether I did but I'm talking
[5:23:35]about the first time she came to Epstein's house
[5:23:37]which I knew to be false
[5:23:39]so from that first
[5:23:41]lie of that description
[5:23:43]I could never recover from that
[5:23:45]and that tainted
[5:23:50]sorry just so that we're clear
[5:23:52]tainted then the testimony
[5:23:54]of everybody else that I
[5:23:56]saw that came post that
[5:23:58]because I had my own personal experience
[5:24:00]which I knew to be false
[5:24:02]and the reason
[5:24:04]why I think and I said
[5:24:06]that Mr. Marcus
[5:24:08]that
[5:24:10]this morning that we were going to talk
[5:24:12]about this because when I think about
[5:24:14]you and
[5:24:16]the public's perception of Mr.
[5:24:18]Epstein
[5:24:20]the public is left
[5:24:22]with the view
[5:24:24]that nobody in the world knows what really
[5:24:26]happened except for you
[5:24:28]now you've explained the last day and a half
[5:24:30]how some of that's just a misperception
[5:24:32]because you weren't you didn't have a key to his
[5:24:34]house you weren't around as much
[5:24:36]as maybe everybody
[5:24:38]claims you were okay
[5:24:40]but there still is this perception
[5:24:42]out there that oh my gosh if
[5:24:44]we could talk to Ms. Maxwell
[5:24:46]we would know
[5:24:48]how horrible
[5:24:50]Mr. Epstein was or how
[5:24:52]misperceived he was whatever the
[5:24:54]truth is about Mr. Epstein
[5:24:56]and the challenge in my mind
[5:24:58]just to be I told you I would tell you
[5:25:00]when I had issues
[5:25:02]and the challenge in my mind is that
[5:25:04]so many women
[5:25:06]have
[5:25:08]have said that Mr. Epstein
[5:25:10]sexually assaulted
[5:25:12]them whether juveniles
[5:25:14]or adults
[5:25:16]that
[5:25:18]I don't find it
[5:25:20]that's persuasive
[5:25:22]that that happened
[5:25:24]and so if that's
[5:25:26]persuasive then and I think it's
[5:25:28]without beyond
[5:25:30]the contestation that
[5:25:32]he preferred younger women
[5:25:34]and it's also
[5:25:36]beyond I think at this point
[5:25:38]there were certainly circumstances that underage
[5:25:40]women
[5:25:42]well I don't want to say
[5:25:44]that you agree with me on that
[5:25:46]I certainly believe that there were younger age women
[5:25:48]that were abused by him
[5:25:50]and so
[5:25:55]then so the layer that I want you
[5:25:57]to that I really want to have a frank discussion about
[5:25:59]is some of these
[5:26:01]younger women have said oh yes
[5:26:03]Ms. Maxwell was there
[5:26:05]to varying degrees
[5:26:07]she saw me there
[5:26:09]the door was open when I was there
[5:26:11]and then much more egregious
[5:26:13]that you participated and that you were part of it
[5:26:15]and so
[5:26:17]what I really want you to have an opportunity
[5:26:19]to say to us
[5:26:21]is where on the spectrum
[5:26:23]the truth is
[5:26:25]whether it's somewhere in the middle
[5:26:27]whether it's one extreme or another extreme
[5:26:29]understanding in my mind I'm talking about
[5:26:31]1994
[5:26:33]or 5 to whenever
[5:26:35]late 90s early 2000s
[5:26:37]and let me just interrupt
[5:26:39]all I would say is
[5:26:41]we're not here
[5:26:43]to say anything
[5:26:45]one way or the other about Epstein I agree with you
[5:26:47]that the evidence is overwhelming
[5:26:49]against him and he
[5:26:51]he's his own person and has
[5:26:53]to deal with that but
[5:26:55]Glenn can speak about what she knows
[5:26:57]and from her point of view and what she did
[5:26:59]and that's what
[5:27:01]you can talk about Glenn
[5:27:03]so I think
[5:27:05]it's helpful to put this on
[5:27:07]the time
[5:27:09]on the calendar because I think without that
[5:27:11]we're lost
[5:27:13]so I would say
[5:27:15]we'll go from the beginning 91 no
[5:27:17]2 no 3 no
[5:27:19]4 no 5 no 6
[5:27:21]now in that time frame
[5:27:23]you have the allegations of
[5:27:25]Jane who I dispute
[5:27:27]I don't think you met her till she was
[5:27:29]let's not talk about individuals
[5:27:31]I'm just saying
[5:27:33]so in that time period
[5:27:35]I'm aware of her
[5:27:37]I'm aware of a girl
[5:27:39]who said but
[5:27:42]and
[5:27:44]I don't know
[5:27:46]of any others and if there are other people who are making
[5:27:48]allegations about I'm not
[5:27:50]actually aware of that I may have read them
[5:27:52]in the but I don't know
[5:27:54]so I think in the early 90s
[5:27:56]period I think I'm
[5:27:58]fairly confident and I can say
[5:28:00]that at least as characterised
[5:28:02]it's just false
[5:28:04]it didn't happen as said now
[5:28:06]did it happen
[5:28:08]did he
[5:28:10]involve himself I knew about
[5:28:12]Jane because I saw her come to the house
[5:28:14]but I saw her with her mother
[5:28:16]I know that her allegations are
[5:28:18]that there were
[5:28:20]orgies for instance
[5:28:22]but the people that she
[5:28:27]suggests were in her orgies didn't even work
[5:28:29]for Epstein until 98
[5:28:31]or 99
[5:28:33]did he do orgies with those people
[5:28:35]and I
[5:28:37]don't know anybody who was there who said that they did
[5:28:39]I certainly didn't see it
[5:28:41]I can't say that that happened
[5:28:43]did she do it with someone
[5:28:45]else I don't know the stories
[5:28:47]really start the
[5:28:49]allegations really begin with
[5:28:51]and I think that you have to
[5:28:53]shift his behaviour
[5:28:55]such as it was
[5:28:57]there was one in California who made an
[5:28:59]allegation there was a woman who said that
[5:29:01]she and she's I didn't
[5:29:03]know about so I think I would call her the
[5:29:05]first person I'd be aware of him
[5:29:07]using his position to
[5:29:09]start to interrupt you
[5:29:11]but I just want to
[5:29:13]I don't want I don't want
[5:29:16]to have you
[5:29:18]I don't think it's helpful for us
[5:29:20]to have you kind of address each allegation
[5:29:22]I want you to clear your mind
[5:29:24]and just tell the truth about it so I'm not
[5:29:26]saying you're not telling the truth I'm saying just putting
[5:29:28]aside what other people have said or what
[5:29:30]their lawyers have said or what they testified
[5:29:32]to or you know the rumors
[5:29:34]in the press push
[5:29:36]those aside you were there
[5:29:38]and
[5:29:40]and so when you
[5:29:42]go back to that time period
[5:29:44]99-2001 during
[5:29:46]that time period
[5:29:48]what did you see
[5:29:50]when it comes to young women in massages
[5:29:52]alright so I saw him
[5:29:54]receive massages he had regular
[5:29:56]masseuses in the 90s people who
[5:29:58]were standard and who traveled with him
[5:30:00]and I saw that
[5:30:02]he was living in that Iranian house
[5:30:04]and now that I look back
[5:30:06]he had I didn't
[5:30:08]stay there but I would go to manage
[5:30:10]the house I would see women
[5:30:12]models
[5:30:14]or people that he would
[5:30:16]have come to the house
[5:30:18]and
[5:30:20]I
[5:30:22]I know that I thought that he was with Eva
[5:30:24]still at that time that's what I believed
[5:30:26]and then subsequently
[5:30:28]believed that even though she married him I actually
[5:30:30]subsequently believed that the baby
[5:30:32]that she had was his
[5:30:34]can I interrupt for one second
[5:30:36]can I just ask some basic
[5:30:38]top line questions were you ever
[5:30:40]in a massage room with him and a
[5:30:42]masseuse
[5:30:44]when was that
[5:30:48]well he would come in sometimes and he would
[5:30:50]like say or like
[5:30:52]give her a massage here or he would grab my
[5:30:54]you know but not often
[5:30:56]I mean he did come in from time to time
[5:30:58]were you ever in a massage room with him
[5:31:00]with a masseuse that was naked
[5:31:02]or giving him any sexual
[5:31:04]favors I never saw that
[5:31:06]that I remember
[5:31:08]did you
[5:31:10]did any of the masseuses ever discuss
[5:31:12]with you giving that they gave sexual
[5:31:14]favors to Epstein no
[5:31:18]did you ever see an underage girl
[5:31:20]go into a massage room with Mr.
[5:31:22]Epstein no
[5:31:24]if
[5:31:26]you had seen that what would you have done
[5:31:28]would you have left
[5:31:31]I can't even conceive I
[5:31:33]I can't even conceive
[5:31:35]of I can't
[5:31:37]imagine what I would have done all right I'm sorry
[5:31:39]no that's okay did you
[5:31:41]ever observe
[5:31:43]Mr. Epstein
[5:31:45]masturbating during a massage
[5:31:47]yes
[5:31:49]I mean when I
[5:31:51]had seen him on a massage table
[5:31:53]I had seen him masturbate I don't know if there
[5:31:55]was a masseuse present but I've seen him on a massage
[5:31:57]I see okay sorry I just
[5:31:59]did you ever see him masturbate with a
[5:32:01]masseuse you know with a naked
[5:32:03]woman
[5:32:05]either giving a massage reporting
[5:32:07]to give a massage
[5:32:09]I don't remember seeing that
[5:32:11]did you give him
[5:32:13]massages by the way I mean
[5:32:15]the photo of you rubbing his feet and I think
[5:32:17]I never
[5:32:19]I certainly
[5:32:21]have been in the massage room with him and I have
[5:32:23]certainly rubbed his feet when he
[5:32:25]would talk and
[5:32:27]but I was not a masseuse
[5:32:29]and I didn't perform massage
[5:32:31]on him
[5:32:33]did you
[5:32:35]along
[5:32:37]during the over the years
[5:32:39]did you pay the masseuses
[5:32:41]I was typically
[5:32:43]my job but
[5:32:45]if there was no deal normally
[5:32:47]in Palm Beach the house man would give the money
[5:32:49]and
[5:32:51]in New York he would do that
[5:32:53]because I wouldn't be in New York when he
[5:32:55]I mean I don't remember ever paying a masseuse
[5:32:57]in New York
[5:32:59]it wasn't your job
[5:33:01]on a regular basis
[5:33:03]to pay the masseuses so if there was a masseuse
[5:33:05]seven days a week
[5:33:07]it wasn't expected that seven days a week
[5:33:09]you would be the one handing them money
[5:33:11]mostly I would not
[5:33:13]I'm not saying I never did it because that wouldn't be
[5:33:15]true but it was not my job to pay
[5:33:17]I mostly recall
[5:33:19]he would either pay them himself
[5:33:21]he would have money or the houseman
[5:33:23]and
[5:33:25]I think some of them would have probably received checks
[5:33:31]and so just picking up on what
[5:33:33]Mr. Marcus was just asking you
[5:33:35]did you
[5:33:39]participate in sexual activity with
[5:33:41]him with a masseuse like at the same time?
[5:33:43]no
[5:33:45]I don't know if there was testimony but
[5:33:47]the
[5:33:49]women who have said that that happened
[5:33:51]categorically
[5:33:53]that's not true
[5:33:55]that is categorically not true
[5:33:57]did you
[5:33:59]moving past the
[5:34:03]moving into the 2000s
[5:34:06]I just want to say that I have been
[5:34:08]I mean I remember there would be times
[5:34:10]when he would be getting a massage and I would be in the
[5:34:12]room I could be on his feet and somebody else could be on his feet
[5:34:14]and we could be talking
[5:34:16]so there is that
[5:34:18]but that's not
[5:34:20]you're not talking about something that's sexual you're talking about
[5:34:22]literally just rubbing his feet
[5:34:24]yes
[5:34:26]no that's not what I'm talking about
[5:34:28]sometimes the women might be
[5:34:30]topless who were giving that so you could
[5:34:32]say that was sexual
[5:34:34]in that context
[5:34:36]no I'm talking about
[5:34:38]the repeated reports of
[5:34:40]certain sex acts
[5:34:42]happening with you present and even
[5:34:44]participating
[5:34:46]did you
[5:34:48]in the 2000s
[5:34:54]time period so moving a little more recently
[5:34:56]when you talked about it yesterday
[5:34:58]about how your
[5:35:00]relationship with
[5:35:02]misreporting changed and was changing
[5:35:04]and you ultimately
[5:35:06]met somebody else
[5:35:08]did you
[5:35:10]observe
[5:35:12]any
[5:35:14]you know
[5:35:16]massages or
[5:35:18]young women giving him massages
[5:35:20]later on so after
[5:35:22]2000-2001 time period
[5:35:24]I'm sure I did
[5:35:26]and was there anything different about what you observed
[5:35:28]during that period
[5:35:30]and the 90s as far as
[5:35:32]the frequency
[5:35:34]his conduct towards them
[5:35:36]I think the frequency increased
[5:35:38]I think he went from one to two in that time period
[5:35:40]and
[5:35:42]but I did not
[5:35:44]see
[5:35:46]I have no recollection
[5:35:48]of ever seeing
[5:35:50]a child
[5:35:53]entering the house and giving him
[5:35:55]a massage
[5:36:00]at that time he had moved me
[5:36:02]out of the main house I had moved into an office
[5:36:04]with John Alessi the former
[5:36:06]under the stairs
[5:36:08]so I had an office
[5:36:10]where I would be that was
[5:36:12]not part of that
[5:36:14]part of the house if I saw people
[5:36:16]and I'm not saying I didn't see
[5:36:18]people come to give a massage that
[5:36:20]wouldn't be true either but
[5:36:22]if I saw someone
[5:36:24]let's say
[5:36:26]I wouldn't
[5:36:28]I don't remember ever seeing anybody
[5:36:30]that I would characterize as a child
[5:36:32]now specifically
[5:36:36]someone who accused me of
[5:36:38]seeing her at the
[5:36:40]time when she came if I did see her
[5:36:42]and I don't believe I did see her or meet her at all
[5:36:44]but if she did
[5:36:46]she was as
[5:36:48]she's described herself now
[5:36:50]was very mature and looked in her
[5:36:52]twenties so
[5:36:54]could somebody have come
[5:36:56]that was more mature looking than
[5:36:58]the
[5:37:00]allegation of what she did look like
[5:37:02]with a photograph that was produced as evidence
[5:37:04]yes but I
[5:37:06]never
[5:37:08]recall at any time
[5:37:10]seeing what I would characterize
[5:37:12]as a child coming to give
[5:37:14]him a massage and going upstairs
[5:37:16]did I see people come? I absolutely
[5:37:18]did did I
[5:37:20]I just
[5:37:22]didn't see children I didn't
[5:37:24]see anybody I would think of as a child
[5:37:26]and if I had seen a child
[5:37:28]I wouldn't
[5:37:30]I'm not sure what I would have done
[5:37:34]did you
[5:37:36]just talking like coming out a little bit of
[5:37:38]just bigger picture
[5:37:40]at the time that you were
[5:37:42]in his life
[5:37:44]do you
[5:37:46]was he a
[5:37:48]he seemed to you to be a sexual deviant
[5:37:50]I don't know what the right way
[5:37:52]to describe it but when you say to me
[5:37:54]he was getting massages every single day
[5:37:56]so young women were everywhere
[5:37:58]multiple massages on some days
[5:38:00]flew with the women to the island
[5:38:02]to New York, Paris
[5:38:04]there's always women they're always rubbing him
[5:38:06]giving him massages
[5:38:08]I think it's
[5:38:10]it would be an understatement to say that's not normal
[5:38:12]I agree
[5:38:16]we've all kind of been part of
[5:38:18]the Epstein
[5:38:20]story over the past several years
[5:38:22]but you were there at the time
[5:38:24]what was it like at the time
[5:38:26]was he a
[5:38:28]a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing
[5:38:30]was he protective of how he looked
[5:38:32]publicly image wise
[5:38:34]at the time what was it like
[5:38:38]I think if he had been creepy
[5:38:40]as you would define and you would expect someone
[5:38:42]who was living that lifestyle
[5:38:44]to be creepy, I don't think the women would have been there
[5:38:46]I don't think
[5:38:48]that they thought of him as creepy
[5:38:50]and if they did
[5:38:52]I never saw them
[5:38:54]behave like he was
[5:38:56]was it a lot
[5:38:58]yes it was, for sure
[5:39:00]I found it
[5:39:02]overwhelming and I couldn't
[5:39:04]understand why it was interesting
[5:39:06]because to me
[5:39:08]it's not interesting
[5:39:10]but he
[5:39:12]as he defined it he found it
[5:39:14]invigorating, he liked being with
[5:39:16]younger people, not just
[5:39:18]younger people, I'm just saying because they gave him
[5:39:20]ideas
[5:39:22]and they were up to date on music
[5:39:24]yeah but that's different than like a
[5:39:26]Soos coming every day
[5:39:28]I'm just telling you what he was saying to me
[5:39:30]to me I just found it
[5:39:32]a drag
[5:39:34]difficult and annoying
[5:39:36]did you
[5:39:41]understand I wasn't the only person
[5:39:46]present so this time in the 2000s
[5:39:48]you're talking about other people
[5:39:50]like Sarah Cullen
[5:39:52]who was around, who
[5:39:54]interfaced with him
[5:39:56]I didn't have to
[5:39:58]she was really interfacing
[5:40:00]with Epstein at this point in time
[5:40:02]in his life, she was running his
[5:40:04]she was his
[5:40:06]assistant
[5:40:08]and so I didn't have to
[5:40:10]that's a fair point
[5:40:12]but move beyond his assistants
[5:40:14]or the folks that work with him
[5:40:16]what about his friends and the people that were
[5:40:18]associated with him
[5:40:20]it couldn't be, I don't understand
[5:40:22]how this is
[5:40:24]an after
[5:40:26]fact of Mr
[5:40:28]Epstein, so once he's arrested
[5:40:30]in Florida it becomes part of
[5:40:32]his story and then later on
[5:40:34]he's charged in the Southern District
[5:40:36]and then here we are now in 2025
[5:40:38]but he was a very successful
[5:40:40]hard working guy and he had a lot of
[5:40:42]clients and he flew with them on vacations
[5:40:44]and went to the island
[5:40:46]I don't understand
[5:40:48]how
[5:40:50]he was able to hide
[5:40:52]this, what seems to me to be
[5:40:54]some sort of sexual
[5:40:56]fixation or issue from
[5:40:58]others. I don't think he did hide it
[5:41:00]that's the answer and I think that
[5:41:02]people around him, myself included
[5:41:04]obviously
[5:41:06]normalised his
[5:41:08]behaviour
[5:41:10]on a number of fronts, one
[5:41:12]I think it
[5:41:14]because it was a self
[5:41:20]because so many people saw it
[5:41:22]of so many
[5:41:24]of such a high calibre down
[5:41:26]that never
[5:41:28]seemed to think it
[5:41:30]well if they thought it was strange probably they never said it
[5:41:32]at the time so it became sort of
[5:41:34]like it was his thing right
[5:41:36]he was always around with women
[5:41:38]now you don't
[5:41:42]I understand that it's
[5:41:44]very unattractive
[5:41:46]especially in light of everything that we
[5:41:48]know today but at the
[5:41:50]time the only way I
[5:41:52]can sort of try and
[5:41:57]describe it is
[5:42:01]through Sex and the City, the movie
[5:42:03]the show
[5:42:05]on telly where
[5:42:07]this is, that lifestyle
[5:42:09]is described on the TV show
[5:42:11]constantly, there were always
[5:42:13]these women around and men who like it
[5:42:15]and a lot of the men that
[5:42:17]I know
[5:42:19]like women
[5:42:21]and so maybe not as overtly
[5:42:23]as Epstein but he was
[5:42:25]overt, not covert
[5:42:27]except obviously in the
[5:42:29]context of the criminal behaviour
[5:42:31]so what we're discussing now
[5:42:33]there's a difference between the criminal
[5:42:35]behaviour and the non criminal but you don't like
[5:42:37]the lifestyle, I
[5:42:39]concur, I
[5:42:41]agree, especially now and I
[5:42:43]I own
[5:42:45]my side of that fence
[5:42:47]that I was there and
[5:42:49]that I saw
[5:42:52]his behaviour with women and didn't
[5:42:54]challenge him or
[5:42:56]do something but I don't
[5:42:58]think back in
[5:43:00]the 90s or the
[5:43:02]2000s we've had a
[5:43:04]cultural shift
[5:43:06]and the cultural shift I think is a very
[5:43:08]important
[5:43:10]part of the analysis here
[5:43:12]not because I'm trying
[5:43:14]to justify this because I'm not
[5:43:16]and I'm not trying to and I
[5:43:18]absolutely, I'm not here to
[5:43:20]do the Poor Me programme so please
[5:43:22]don't misunderstand this, however
[5:43:24]in the
[5:43:26]2000s when this behaviour
[5:43:28]was going down
[5:43:30]in the initial blush
[5:43:32]of the Palm Beach investigation
[5:43:34]the women who brought the women who
[5:43:36]were under age 17,
[5:43:38]16
[5:43:40]I believe if my memory serves
[5:43:42]were actually targets
[5:43:44]of the investigation and could
[5:43:46]have been charged with prostitution
[5:43:48]and trafficking, if trafficking
[5:43:50]was even a law
[5:43:52]so you're taking
[5:43:56]behaviour and I
[5:43:58]did introduce him to
[5:44:00]women, I
[5:44:02]did, but not
[5:44:04]under age women
[5:44:06]I understand that there are allegations
[5:44:08]I have read them about myself going to
[5:44:10]schools, I can categorically
[5:44:12]tell you that I have never
[5:44:14]in my life gone to
[5:44:16]a school to pick up a child
[5:44:20]well, not for
[5:44:22]this purpose, I mean like my
[5:44:24]step children or whatever, sorry
[5:44:26]I just want to
[5:44:28]be clear that I'm not trying to be
[5:44:30]cute or anything
[5:44:32]but
[5:44:34]I did look for masseuses
[5:44:36]I did, I went to spas
[5:44:38]and if I met
[5:44:40]somebody who said she was a masseuse
[5:44:42]I did not check their credentials
[5:44:44]and of course if she was attractive
[5:44:46]I did introduce her, yes
[5:44:48]if I met friends who were interested
[5:44:50]he was constantly asking me
[5:44:52]to meet new and interesting people
[5:44:54]I did do that
[5:44:56]at the time
[5:44:58]I reviewed it as
[5:45:00]well first of all
[5:45:02]part of my job
[5:45:04]I think, or part of my responsibility
[5:45:06]if you were to introduce
[5:45:08]because it wasn't just women, if I met somebody
[5:45:10]who was interesting like Mary Gellman
[5:45:12]or who I thought he would like, I did that
[5:45:14]so it's not exclusively
[5:45:16]but he did
[5:45:18]and I did do that
[5:45:20]so, but then
[5:45:22]so I'm going to layer on top of what you just said
[5:45:24]what we talked about yesterday more
[5:45:26]a little bit today already
[5:45:28]which is everybody that was around him besides
[5:45:30]you, like his friends
[5:45:32]so I accept
[5:45:34]the lifestyle, I've seen the photos
[5:45:36]we're all going to go to the island
[5:45:38]for a couple days or flying on a private
[5:45:40]plane and there's beautiful women everywhere
[5:45:42]is there any
[5:45:44]do you, as you sit here today
[5:45:46]think that the people around
[5:45:48]him
[5:45:50]weren't also of the same
[5:45:52]place
[5:45:54]where they were also
[5:45:56]getting massages
[5:45:58]where there was
[5:46:00]sex going on during them
[5:46:02]or things like that
[5:46:04]and I'm obviously asking this because that's what
[5:46:06]everybody has said
[5:46:08]and when you just described
[5:46:10]what it was like
[5:46:12]the very
[5:46:14]next step from that is
[5:46:16]everybody's going to Vegas for the weekend
[5:46:18]and so it seems kind of
[5:46:20]far-fetched
[5:46:22]to say that yes, that was his lifestyle
[5:46:24]but then
[5:46:26]when he's taking groups of folks
[5:46:28]to the island or groups of folks to New
[5:46:30]Mexico or whatever that they're all
[5:46:32]going to
[5:46:34]church in the morning while he's getting a massage
[5:46:36]I hear you
[5:46:38]I was there though
[5:46:40]and you're talking
[5:46:42]about very substantial people
[5:46:44]and you are
[5:46:46]extrapolating because
[5:46:48]the narrative that started
[5:46:50]in, by the way
[5:46:52]not until 2009
[5:46:54]is when it really started
[5:46:56]so that narrative
[5:46:58]that was created and then
[5:47:00]built upon and
[5:47:02]just mushroomed into what
[5:47:04]basically this is like a Salem witch
[5:47:06]trial, people have gone and lost their minds
[5:47:08]for this thing, I understand
[5:47:10]that but the issue is
[5:47:12]how do you satisfy
[5:47:14]a mob who can't
[5:47:16]understand the lifestyle because it's like
[5:47:18]P Diddy in Redux on TV
[5:47:20]with
[5:47:22]Clinton's and Trump, I mean
[5:47:24]it's bananas
[5:47:26]and while some of it
[5:47:28]is real
[5:47:30]he did do those things
[5:47:32]I'm definitely not disputing that
[5:47:34]but this was a man
[5:47:36]and he didn't even believe he had a real
[5:47:38]business, I happen to believe he did
[5:47:40]did he grip
[5:47:42]I don't know because I wasn't
[5:47:44]really in his business
[5:47:46]but this is one man
[5:47:48]he's not some
[5:47:50]they've made him into this
[5:47:54]he's not that interesting
[5:47:56]he's a disgusting
[5:48:00]guy who did terrible things to
[5:48:02]young kids, you're not going to hear me
[5:48:04]say what he did to people who are over the
[5:48:06]age of 18, I'm sorry
[5:48:08]I'm not going to go there
[5:48:10]that's just not what I'm here to
[5:48:12]I mean, I
[5:48:15]but
[5:48:17]to suggest that
[5:48:23]Larry Summers or
[5:48:25]Clinton
[5:48:27]would suddenly go, oh my gosh
[5:48:29]this is like a guy, I'm going to get my
[5:48:31]body rubbed and have some
[5:48:33]the men that
[5:48:35]went and had a massage and maybe
[5:48:37]did something sexual
[5:48:39]I'm in
[5:48:41]I wasn't in the room
[5:48:43]I cannot tell you if that
[5:48:45]happened, and if it did
[5:48:47]I never paid for that
[5:48:49]just so that we're clear, nobody ever
[5:48:51]said to me, oh you know, we had
[5:48:53]sexual intercourse and that's if it was a
[5:48:55]three, uh-uh
[5:48:57]I'd be like, okay, TMI, not my
[5:48:59]business, it's just not
[5:49:01]and I didn't want to know
[5:49:03]maybe there's that
[5:49:05]but did I
[5:49:07]think these guys were coming
[5:49:09]for that, I really don't
[5:49:11]if you met Epstein, there is
[5:49:13]no way that this cast of characters
[5:49:15]of which it's extraordinary
[5:49:17]some of you in your cabinet
[5:49:19]who you value as your
[5:49:21]co-workers and you know
[5:49:23]would be with him if he
[5:49:25]was a creep or because they
[5:49:27]wanted sexual favors
[5:49:29]a man wants sexual favors, he will find
[5:49:31]that, they didn't have to come to Epstein
[5:49:33]for that
[5:49:35]now, did some
[5:49:37]okay, I don't know
[5:49:39]I wasn't there, I didn't see it
[5:49:41]um, so
[5:49:43]when's the last time
[5:49:49]you think
[5:49:51]you were with Mr.
[5:49:53]Epstein
[5:49:55]when he got a massage?
[5:49:57]um
[5:50:01]I want
[5:50:03]to say
[5:50:05]2007
[5:50:07]2007? Yes
[5:50:09]um, and
[5:50:14]the frequency at that
[5:50:18]point, so 2007
[5:50:20]is that when it was at its peak
[5:50:22]would you say? Meaning
[5:50:24]the number of interactions
[5:50:26]he was having daily with
[5:50:28]women and masseuses?
[5:50:30]I wasn't really in his life
[5:50:32]I happened to be in the Caribbean
[5:50:34]in 2000, I was with Ted
[5:50:36]and we, I was
[5:50:38]still speaking with Epstein because I was still involved
[5:50:40]in his
[5:50:42]you know, loosely with his
[5:50:44]the houses and the staff
[5:50:46]some of the billing
[5:50:48]and I was going back
[5:50:50]from being with Ted in the Caribbean
[5:50:52]to New York
[5:50:54]and Epstein offered me a ride
[5:50:56]and so Ted dropped me off in St. Thomas
[5:50:58]and I was on the island I believe
[5:51:00]for one day and one night only
[5:51:02]on that
[5:51:04]visit, I believe
[5:51:06]well I know he would have gotten a massage
[5:51:08]but I have
[5:51:10]there were people there
[5:51:12]but I did not
[5:51:14]there were women
[5:51:16]I was just relieved
[5:51:18]to be leaving the next day
[5:51:20]Let's take a break
[5:51:22]Alright we're going to take a break
[5:51:24]the time is 11 31
[5:51:29]We are resuming the audio
[5:51:31]recorded proffer agreement
[5:51:33]with Ms. Maxwell and the time
[5:51:35]is 11 49 A
[5:51:40]I wanted to
[5:51:42]follow up about
[5:51:44]former President Clinton's
[5:51:49]relationship with Mr. Epstein
[5:51:51]not you
[5:51:53]We touched on it
[5:51:58]I have a couple of questions about it
[5:52:00]What's your understanding of
[5:52:02]their relationship from what you observed
[5:52:04]meaning
[5:52:07]for President Clinton and Mr. Epstein
[5:52:09]I saw them talk
[5:52:11]I saw them sit down and have chats about
[5:52:13]I don't know
[5:52:15]I wasn't either party or
[5:52:17]didn't listen
[5:52:19]and I know
[5:52:21]I would characterize
[5:52:23]originally Mr. Epstein is interested in
[5:52:25]the former president
[5:52:27]but I never saw him
[5:52:29]other than that I saw them
[5:52:31]be friendly on the plane but I never
[5:52:33]I don't believe I don't recollect
[5:52:35]anyway ever seen them
[5:52:37]in any other context
[5:52:39]I don't remember him at his house in New York
[5:52:41]like I said I don't believe he
[5:52:43]ever went to the island I think that was just a
[5:52:45]that was a story
[5:52:47]that
[5:52:49]Do you know one way
[5:52:51]or the other whether their relationship
[5:52:53]continued
[5:52:55]without you like when you
[5:52:57]kind of moved on past Mr. Epstein
[5:52:59]I don't believe so
[5:53:01]Why do you say that you don't believe so
[5:53:03]Because I don't think they had a relationship
[5:53:05]even when I was there
[5:53:09]I was I
[5:53:11]President Clinton
[5:53:13]liked me
[5:53:15]and we got along
[5:53:17]terribly well
[5:53:19]but I never saw that warmth
[5:53:21]or that
[5:53:23]warmth like how you want to characterize it
[5:53:25]with Mr. Epstein
[5:53:27]and so I didn't see that I didn't see any
[5:53:29]interest in I didn't see
[5:53:31]President Clinton being interested in Epstein
[5:53:33]he was just a rich guy with a plane
[5:53:35]When
[5:53:37]the southern New York
[5:53:39]case kind of became public and
[5:53:41]there was a search warrant of Mr. Epstein's
[5:53:43]house there was like a there was some sort of
[5:53:45]painting or picture of Mr.
[5:53:47]Clinton and like a blue dress that had been
[5:53:49]signed did you know
[5:53:51]Do you know where he got that picture
[5:53:53]First I saw it was in the press
[5:53:55]So you never observed that
[5:53:57]in his
[5:53:59]brownstone
[5:54:01]I thought it was hideous
[5:54:03]I thought it was hideous
[5:54:05]But you had never
[5:54:07]So you don't know sitting here today
[5:54:09]where Mr. Epstein got it
[5:54:11]the circumstances in which he got it
[5:54:13]Do you know of
[5:54:15]any other
[5:54:17]gifts
[5:54:19]or paraphernalia or art
[5:54:21]or pictures that
[5:54:23]former President Clinton gave to
[5:54:25]Mr. Epstein
[5:54:27]No
[5:54:29]I mean did he maybe get
[5:54:31]him a gift I don't know
[5:54:33]I have no knowledge of that
[5:54:35]And then going back to the topic
[5:54:39]we were talking about before our last break
[5:54:41]Well
[5:54:43]you said something yesterday
[5:54:47]at the very beginning of our conversation
[5:54:49]that when you first
[5:54:51]met Mr. Epstein
[5:54:53]and you ultimately
[5:54:55]have sex with him
[5:54:57]that he had
[5:54:59]I'll use the word
[5:55:01]erectile dysfunction but he had issues
[5:55:03]having sex
[5:55:05]That's what he told me
[5:55:07]That's what he told you
[5:55:09]And then over the years
[5:55:11]sometime in the 90s he started taking testosterone
[5:55:13]Yes
[5:55:15]I don't know if it was in the 90s
[5:55:17]I don't remember when he started but it wasn't
[5:55:19]He had patches
[5:55:21]Testosterone patches
[5:55:23]Dermal
[5:55:25]Yes
[5:55:27]And then he was ridiculous because you shouldn't
[5:55:29]take more than one but sometimes he had
[5:55:31]like what are you doing
[5:55:33]it's like unhealthy
[5:55:35]From what you observed
[5:55:37]or saw or heard
[5:55:39]did he continue to have
[5:55:41]challenges sexually over the years
[5:55:43]or do you think that whatever
[5:55:45]issue he told you he had
[5:55:47]I think it was a lie
[5:55:49]You think it was a lie about what?
[5:55:51]About his erectile dysfunction
[5:55:53]You don't think he ever
[5:55:55]had any issues you think he just told you that
[5:55:57]That is what I believe today
[5:55:59]If any of the stories are true
[5:56:01]he couldn't have had erectile dysfunction
[5:56:03]he had a prior pistol for Christ's sake
[5:56:05]That's one of the reasons for my questions
[5:56:07]You're right
[5:56:09]We've talked about this
[5:56:11]a fair amount
[5:56:13]What did
[5:56:15]The stories of what
[5:56:17]Masoos's underage
[5:56:19]and overage have said about him
[5:56:21]are
[5:56:25]and what he liked
[5:56:27]what he demanded that they do
[5:56:29]whether it's watching him masturbate
[5:56:31]or pinching his nipples
[5:56:33]kind of things that are
[5:56:35]unusual
[5:56:37]Do you believe that?
[5:56:39]From what you saw, from what you observed
[5:56:41]from what you did in your relationship with him
[5:56:43]Is that true?
[5:56:45]Well, the bulk of what I read
[5:56:47]he did not have sex
[5:56:49]so that is consistent with what he told me
[5:56:51]actually
[5:56:53]and his masturbating, that is also consistent
[5:56:55]with what I knew myself
[5:56:57]and
[5:56:59]I'm going to use a bad word
[5:57:01]Please, you can use whatever word you need
[5:57:03]Blowjob
[5:57:05]He liked blowjobs
[5:57:07]That I did observe
[5:57:09]and he didn't seem to have any erectile dysfunction for blowjobs
[5:57:11]but sex he didn't have
[5:57:13]I
[5:57:15]read the stories about
[5:57:17]the allegations of sexual rape
[5:57:19]I find that challenging
[5:57:21]because that was not his
[5:57:23]modus operandi from my perspective
[5:57:25]But when you read about
[5:57:27]blowjobs
[5:57:29]that would be
[5:57:31]consistent with kind of what you
[5:57:33]That would be consistent as would masturbation, yes
[5:57:35]Did you talk to
[5:57:37]Masoos's
[5:57:39]or women that either he was
[5:57:41]in a relationship with
[5:57:43]or
[5:57:45]who asked you about
[5:57:47]working with him
[5:57:49]Did you tell them, yes he likes blowjobs
[5:57:51]yes he'll masturbate in front of you
[5:57:53]Did you have conversations with
[5:57:55]any of those
[5:57:57]with women about
[5:57:59]what Mr. Epstein liked
[5:58:01]or what would make him happy or things like that
[5:58:03]I don't have any memory
[5:58:05]of telling anybody about that
[5:58:07]I think I may have joked
[5:58:09]from a sex in the city scene
[5:58:11]that he's
[5:58:13]but not, I never instruct
[5:58:15]the question you're asking me, sorry, let's just be clear
[5:58:17]Did I ever instruct anyone how to
[5:58:19]pleasure Mr. Epstein? Your question?
[5:58:21]No
[5:58:25]And you said this earlier but I want to just
[5:58:27]you kind of said it on your own
[5:58:29]I want to ask the question just so I make sure
[5:58:31]that there's no confusion
[5:58:37]When
[5:58:39]you
[5:58:41]over the years
[5:58:43]I just want to say
[5:58:45]the idea that I would have to explain
[5:58:47]to a woman how to satisfy Mr. Epstein
[5:58:49]is patented
[5:58:51]because he clearly was able to explain himself
[5:58:53]He didn't need an interlocutor
[5:58:55]to explain what he liked
[5:58:57]He's been doing this obviously
[5:58:59]with some version of this story
[5:59:01]his whole life and did not require
[5:59:03]any help from me
[5:59:07]Then
[5:59:09]So did you
[5:59:11]did you ever observe him
[5:59:13]having sex with a masseuse
[5:59:15]regular intercourse
[5:59:17]not a blowjob, nothing else
[5:59:19]were you either walked in or you were in the room?
[5:59:21]I never saw Epstein have sex with any person
[5:59:23]And
[5:59:29]so how about oral sex?
[5:59:31]Did you ever
[5:59:33]observe a woman
[5:59:35]giving him oral sex
[5:59:37]whether you were in the room or
[5:59:39]walked in or
[5:59:41]I've never seen a blowjob
[5:59:45]But you said earlier you did see
[5:59:47]him masturbating
[5:59:49]in front of masseuses
[5:59:51]I don't know if I said that
[5:59:53]Let me ask a question
[5:59:55]No that's fair
[5:59:57]I said I saw him
[5:59:59]I'm sure I saw him in
[6:00:01]what some people could define
[6:00:03]a sexual contact
[6:00:05]because somebody could not have their clothes
[6:00:07]or topless I would say maybe
[6:00:09]I could say that
[6:00:11]I'm having
[6:00:13]masturbating when someone was like
[6:00:15]I don't recall that, I don't have a specific
[6:00:17]memory of it, I'm sorry
[6:00:19]I didn't say that
[6:00:21]I understand, that's fair
[6:00:23]I'm not trying to put words in your mouth
[6:00:25]Absolutely not
[6:00:27]So
[6:00:33]you said I think in passing
[6:00:35]maybe not in passing
[6:00:37]about
[6:00:39]whether other
[6:00:41]people who travel with him
[6:00:43]get massages
[6:00:45]or
[6:00:47]when I say that I'm referring
[6:00:49]mostly to the island
[6:00:51]or potentially New Mexico
[6:00:53]but also at his Palm Beach
[6:00:55]residence or even in New York
[6:00:57]Do you know
[6:00:59]do you have a list of names in your head
[6:01:01]or names
[6:01:03]that come to mind
[6:01:05]of people that you know did get
[6:01:07]massages when they were with
[6:01:09]Mr. Epstein? No, there's no list
[6:01:11]there's no list of people getting massages
[6:01:13]I don't have, I can barely recall
[6:01:15]all the people, I can barely recall
[6:01:19]I struggle to recall
[6:01:21]actual people that I met
[6:01:23]and I may have met a long time
[6:01:25]I had even forgotten about
[6:01:27]Mr. Kennedy or I probably
[6:01:29]brought it up yesterday, it just came to my mind now
[6:01:31]so I don't have
[6:01:33]and there's no list, there was never a list
[6:01:35]there was no, well certainly none that I ever saw
[6:01:37]none I ever heard of, none that I ever
[6:01:39]witnessed, none that I
[6:01:41]there's no list, there's never been a list
[6:01:43]And you never heard Mr. Epstein
[6:01:45]talk about such a list?
[6:01:47]Never. And you never heard Mr. Epstein
[6:01:52]suggest that
[6:01:54]he had some sort of control
[6:01:56]over somebody because of what he knew
[6:01:58]about what they had done
[6:02:00]or had photos of him
[6:02:02]I never heard him
[6:02:04]I never heard him ask questions about that
[6:02:06]I never heard him
[6:02:08]I've been present many times
[6:02:10]with masseuses, I never
[6:02:12]who presumably could or maybe
[6:02:14]did massage somebody, I'm not saying
[6:02:16]I'm not just saying the god
[6:02:18]I never heard him ask
[6:02:20]any question of any masseuse
[6:02:22]who may have given a massage to a friend
[6:02:24]who was on the island or in Palm Beach or anywhere else
[6:02:26]any details about that
[6:02:28]massage
[6:02:30]does he have funky furs? No, I never
[6:02:32]heard that, it'd be
[6:02:34]weird
[6:02:36]I think at one of the breaks today
[6:02:38]your lawyer may have
[6:02:40]showed you
[6:02:42]something that just came out in the paper
[6:02:44]this morning or last night
[6:02:46]a letter
[6:02:48]that is
[6:02:50]attributed to you
[6:02:52]associated with this birthday book
[6:02:54]from 2003 that we talked about
[6:02:56]yesterday
[6:02:58]did you see that letter? I did see the letter
[6:03:00]Does that in fact look like your handwriting
[6:03:02]or something you wrote? I don't remember the letter
[6:03:04]but it does look like my handwriting
[6:03:06]and it does look like my name
[6:03:08]and it looks like it could be real
[6:03:10]but I have no memory of writing that
[6:03:12]and I don't
[6:03:14]remember it at all
[6:03:16]Do you remember what the birthday book
[6:03:18]as they're calling it, what it looked like
[6:03:20]how it was put together? I do
[6:03:22]What do you remember about it?
[6:03:24]I remember it was leather bound
[6:03:26]and I remember it being about
[6:03:28]yay big, it was big
[6:03:30]So you're saying it looks like it's over 12 inches
[6:03:32]15 inches? Yes, it was like
[6:03:34]sort of like folio size I guess
[6:03:36]or something like that
[6:03:38]and it was brown
[6:03:40]and thick, about this thick
[6:03:44]So I understand
[6:03:46]on heavy stock paper
[6:03:48]heavy stock paper
[6:03:50]14 inches high
[6:03:52]and then around
[6:03:54]well A4
[6:03:56]we had A4 because it was done on
[6:03:58]heavy stock paper
[6:04:00]I can't remember if it was folio size paper
[6:04:02]or it could have just been A4
[6:04:04]Oh I see, so it could have just been letter size
[6:04:06]or it might have been legal size
[6:04:08]heavy stock paper
[6:04:12]So the folks that submitted letters
[6:04:14]were given the stock paper
[6:04:16]or how were the letters
[6:04:18]or did you like glue or something
[6:04:20]the letters to the stock paper?
[6:04:22]Every which way, some were given the paper
[6:04:24]and they did their own thing
[6:04:26]some would send me some scrap of paper
[6:04:28]and they did their own thing
[6:04:30]some I didn't get because
[6:04:32]they went straight to Epstein and I was just told
[6:04:34]to put them in, like I said
[6:04:38]And how was it bound?
[6:04:40]It went to a professional binder
[6:04:42]who did it like a book
[6:04:44]that you'd see in the library
[6:04:46]So like the glue that keeps a regular book
[6:04:48]a novel that you would read together
[6:04:50]it was bound that way?
[6:04:52]I believe so, I don't think it was stitched
[6:04:54]but I don't remember
[6:04:56]I mean it was professionally done by a professional book binder
[6:05:00]And then after you presented it
[6:05:02]or after it was presented to him
[6:05:04]when he turned 50
[6:05:06]did you see the leather bound book
[6:05:08]did it keep it somewhere in particular?
[6:05:10]It was in his bookcase
[6:05:12]in 71st Street
[6:05:14]In Manhattan
[6:05:16]And did you see it over the years
[6:05:18]until you stopped going to the
[6:05:20]Brownstone?
[6:05:22]I saw it, I know I did see it
[6:05:24]because it was right behind his desk
[6:05:26]and after I stopped going
[6:05:28]I don't know what happened to it
[6:05:32]Do you remember being told
[6:05:34]or knowing where the book is now?
[6:05:38]No, but when I received
[6:05:40]in discovery those pages
[6:05:42]I assumed that it had been found
[6:05:44]when
[6:05:46]either New York
[6:05:48]or the island was searched
[6:05:50]and I assumed that the Southern District of New York had it
[6:05:52]But I think you said yesterday
[6:05:54]but just to go over it again in case
[6:05:56]you remember anything differently
[6:05:58]you recall seeing
[6:06:00]some of the letters in discovery
[6:06:02]I do
[6:06:04]but you don't recall kind of seeing
[6:06:06]the leather book start to finish
[6:06:08]No, but remember I didn't see all discovery
[6:06:10]because they were very clever about
[6:06:12]I didn't receive all discovery period
[6:06:14]and in fact
[6:06:16]very important items
[6:06:18]were not given to me at all
[6:06:20]including witness testimony from grand jury
[6:06:22]So whether
[6:06:24]so you don't know one way or the other
[6:06:26]or whether it was part of discovery
[6:06:28]you just know that you didn't get it
[6:06:30]it wasn't part of discovery that was given to you
[6:06:34]I'm absolutely sure that the
[6:06:36]Southern District of New York hid
[6:06:38]very important pieces of evidence from me
[6:06:44]and I assumed
[6:06:46]that they leaked it
[6:06:48]because where else would it be
[6:06:50]if that's what it is
[6:06:52]if it's true
[6:06:58]Just so I put
[6:07:00]I'll say it to you
[6:07:02]talk a little bit more about it
[6:07:04]I said to you yesterday
[6:07:06]that
[6:07:08]the purpose of what we did yesterday
[6:07:10]and today was exactly
[6:07:12]what we did which is to have a conversation
[6:07:14]about Mr. Epstein
[6:07:16]and about you
[6:07:18]and
[6:07:20]I think it's very challenging
[6:07:22]to talk about
[6:07:24]everything we talked about
[6:07:26]in just
[6:07:28]one and a half days
[6:07:30]or in just a period of hours
[6:07:32]so I'll talk to Mr. Marcus
[6:07:34]about what we're going to do
[6:07:36]next if anything
[6:07:38]there's no
[6:07:40]I'm not being coy
[6:07:42]I don't know yet
[6:07:44]I don't know
[6:07:46]I have a lot of
[6:07:48]we have some work to do
[6:07:50]we'll do it with your lawyers
[6:07:52]to the extent we have questions or follow up
[6:07:54]and
[6:07:57]this has been very helpful
[6:07:59]I think it's
[6:08:01]it was you
[6:08:03]who kind of
[6:08:05]said you wanted to talk
[6:08:07]but we gladly accepted
[6:08:09]so I do appreciate you
[6:08:11]being willing to
[6:08:13]meet with us
[6:08:15]and
[6:08:17]I expect that we'll be in touch
[6:08:19]soon
[6:08:21]This concludes the
[6:08:27]recorded proffer interview
[6:08:29]of Ms. Maxwell
[6:08:31]the time is 12.05 p.m.
[6:08:33]on Friday, July 25th