[0:00]We want to think it's a few rotten apples. We want to think it's psychopath, but it's actually good guys who do this. And this is where Gizelle's
[0:09]book is extraordinary. The truth is both that he was a good dad and that he took incestrous pictures of his daughter, that he was a good husband, and that he
[0:21]almost tortured me to death. I mean, for me as a moral philosopher, that's a fascinating question. All of the women there looked at Jiselle and thought,
[0:30]"This could be me." Are enough men looking at the men and thinking, "Could this be me?" Hello and welcome to the forecast. The
[0:42]trial of Jazelle Pelico shocked France and far beyond. It was a case so disturbing it forced a national reckoning at home, but raised questions everywhere about consent, complicity,
[0:53]and the terrifying ordinariness of the men accused. But as the world continues to confront the vast scale of abuse linked to billionaire financia Jeffrey Epstein, it raises a deeper question.
[1:04]Are these crimes the work of monsters? Or do they reveal something far more deeprooted about power, entitlement, and men? Joining me today is the French philosopher, Professor Manon Garcia,
[1:16]whose latest book, Living with Men, reflects on what she witnessed while observing the Pelico trial and poses the question, how can women live with men? Now, Professor Garcia, thank you so much for joining us.
[1:27]>> Thank you for having me. >> I mean, we want to believe, don't we, that the men who carry out terrible sexual crimes are in some way an
[1:37]aberration, a perversion? And we can look at a man who drugs his wife and then invites other men to come and rape her as a monster,
[1:48]a one-off. But it doesn't explain the scores of men who took up his invitation to come and rape his wife. >> Yeah. So I think this is what I found
[1:58]very interesting with the pitical trial is that usually the cases that get uh public attention are cases that are extraordinary that are like the horrible
[2:09]case of Sarah Everard in the UK. So you know women walking at home and and getting raped on the way. And so this corresponds to a a a fake um horrible
[2:20]scenario of the a known man in a parking lot etc. But we know when we work on sexual violence that most most of the times it happens in the family at home
[2:31]with people you know. And so with the pelico trial with with the pelico case you have the the extraordinary dimension of at least 70 men something that really
[2:42]catches the attention of everyone. That sounds horrible. We we have a sort of voyer desire to know more how horrible it is. And then what we see is the
[2:54]normaly of sexual violence. We see a man that rapes his wife that you know he loves her but he also does horrible
[3:03]things to her. we see really complexity of uh patriarchy, complexity of human actions, complexity of responsibility,
[3:13]moral questions which for me was as a philosopher was really fascinating. I mean, you know, it's a particularly pertinent moment to be talking to you for for a number of reasons. You know,
[3:23]the headlines are full of the Epstein case at the moment and all the talk is about rich and powerful men and the way they abuse that wealth and that power that they have. These were not
[3:34]particularly rich men. These were ordinary men. These were lorry drivers, a nurse, a journalist, a soldier. And that messes with our with our head, doesn't it?
[3:46]>> Yes. But it's so interesting because when it happened, people were saying, "Look, it's a class thing. They're lower middle class or workingclass men.
[3:57]They're from or they are from France or they're from the south of France." So basically the the people in Germany or in the US or in the UK were telling me, "Oh, it's such a French case." The
[4:07]people in Paris were telling me it's a South France case. The bourgeoa were telling me it's a workingclass case. And now people are saying, "Oh, the Epstein
[4:16]scandal, it's an upper class case." And so the in both cases it's a it's the same system of entitlement of
[4:27]social structure of men not like lacking accountability and thinking that women victims don't matter and so it's their so of course the
[4:39]Epstein files are particularly outrageous because it's men in power but it's fundamentally the same idea of we don't get to pay for anything we do. We
[4:51]protect each other exactly like these men in in Mazon protected each other because some of them knew each other. Actually, some of them talked to their friends about what they had done. No one
[5:02]called the police. Even in the trial, there were two men who had come to the house of the pedico and who said, "No, I'm I'm not doing this." But and and she
[5:12]said, "Pico, ask them during the trial, why didn't you call the police? Why didn't you send me an anonymous letter? Like imagine, you know, we've watched all these TV shows. They had just to cut
[5:23]a few letters from the newspapers and tell her your husband is having you raped and drugged, you know, but there is this sort of we protect each other um
[5:34]feeling that we see exactly the same way in the Epstein files. So, it's not a matter of class. So whether you're a lorry driver or Jeffrey Epstein, you are still able to rape a woman and you are
[5:46]enabled by the people and and by the men around you and not just the men in very often. What does that tell us? >> So I think it tells us something about
[5:55]masculinity. Not at all that all men are rapist or anything like that. That's not I'm not interested in individual well in the case in the Epstein files I'm particularly interested in
[6:06]responsibility at the individual level but I'm a philosopher. What interests me is the the social structures that make
[6:14]that possible. How men are raised to think that women as singular human beings don't count. Um
[6:24]that they're a woman that they're a body to which they can do things. Not to whom, to which because that's what you see in the videos, because I had to
[6:34]watch these videos is that they're not seeing her as a who. They're saying her, she says it herself as a ract doll, as
[6:42]trash. They just do things to her body as if she were not a human being. And so what is happening socially is that men
[6:54]are raised to think of women partly that way. that women's sexuality is not seen as an alter ego
[7:04]with whom you can do things but rather a thing to whom you can do things. But how does that come about? So as I say you have Jeffrey Epstein a billionaire, a
[7:14]financier, you have a a soldier say or a journalist in Mazon. The grooming trials that have rocked the UK are ordinary
[7:26]men, fathers, sons, brothers who can do terrible things to women, girls, and are often in denial about and and and are
[7:37]shocked to be held to account very often. >> Yes. And that's something that really fascinated me on the day of the verdict because for random reasons I found
[7:46]myself in a room with the family members of the accused. And so of course you wouldn't be surprised to know that it was only women who had come. So the
[7:57]mothers, the daughters, the sisters, the wives who had come to see their husbands, fathers, sons be sent away to jail for rape. And
[8:08]they were broken, you know, really like one fainted, one threw up, they were like yelling during the the verdict. And
[8:19]you could see that it hadn't counted. It it didn't count for these men. So it's not just that they destroyed Gizel Pelico is that they destroyed their own
[8:30]families and all these women you know like even we're we're hearing about Melinda Gates being asked about the acts
[8:38]of Bill Gates. you see that the women the women's life don't count and and this is really something that that
[8:49]fascinates me what is happening in the culture so that men are raised to think that way >> and what is your best assessment of that that is the biggest question perhaps how has this happened where has it come from
[9:00]>> so I think it comes from everywhere I think it comes from the movies I mean you and I we grew up with James Bond you know we grew up seeing these women who are pushed into a wall and say, "No,
[9:11]James, no." And then they say, "Oh, James." Yeah. You know, like it's this idea that um the the hunter prey system
[9:20]is the way eroticism functions that um men will always have a woman at home who cares for them. this sort of myth of the
[9:30]prostitute and the mom, these these two feminine figures um instead of thinking of women as another human being with
[9:41]whom you can do things. And I think it's really hard to disentangle this and to yeah invite men to think differently than the boys club because what we're
[9:52]seeing in Westminster, it's the boys club, but what we're seeing in Mazon is also the boys club. It's just a different one. >> But it's interesting. Is that just about You talk about the social structures. Is
[10:02]that just about masculinity when it comes to sex and sexual desire? Or is it something that actually permeates every aspect of life, work, you know, home,
[10:14]home life? >> I think it's a question of entitlement. It's entitlement to sex. It's entitlement to care. It's entitlement to
[10:22]to housework. It's entitlement to um Yeah. Yeah. >> to behave terribly without being held accountable. >> No, but what I mean is that men feel
[10:33]entitled to women's attention, to women's sexual availability, to women's work for them. They think it's normal. And I think this is what we're seeing
[10:44]right now with the backlash is that suddenly men are like, "What? I'm going to have to clean the toilet as well? I'm I'm gonna have to pick my kids up from school. Like I have men who would say
[10:55]this is outrageous, you know, that they help at home, that they're not rapists, that they're they're decent men. >> Yes, of course. But, you know, for in my husband is a wonderful man. So, I'm I'm
[11:06]in a situation of being a heterosexual woman, and I want to believe that some of the men out there are really good. But when he takes care
[11:16]of our kids, he gets high-fived in the streets all the time. Every time he takes our kids, I don't know, on a train, people are like, "What a wonderful dad." Every time, you know,
[11:28]people tell me all the time, "Oh, you're so lucky that he takes care of the kids when you're traveling. That's extraordinary. So, but people tell him
[11:37]that. So, it makes even the the most well-meaning people give us the feeling that this is extraordinary that he's treating me as an equal because he
[11:49]travels for work. No one tells me, "Oh, you're alone for two weeks. How like you're babysitting your kids." No one thinks that I'm babysitting my kids, you
[11:59]know. So I think there's very many layers. So of course not all men behave actively badly but all men
[12:10]reap the benefits of the men the the system of nonaccountability for men. >> The thing you know when you said earlier that you know it is not all men and of
[12:21]course you know that me too that was the the the echo that came back not all men. The thing about the Pelico trial was by
[12:31]the time you have understood that Pelico puts out a message and the men have to live really close because he can't risk the seditive wearing off. So
[12:41]>> he wants them to come in less than 24 hours. So he plans it for the day, but he has this rule that it has to be if he goes online in the morning, they have to
[12:50]come that day. And so that eliminates a lot of people and they need to so they he geollocize them but also they need to be available
[13:00]that very day. So it can't be something that is planned with time etc. So to imagine that you can find 70 men in the
[13:11]blink of an eye that are ready to come the day off. I mean recently because I know I'm I'm very curious about what happens in other countries because I see people thinking you know the French and
[13:22]sex but recently in Quebec there was um a journalist who put on an ad on a website a bit like Koko that Pelico used
[13:32]saying oh my wife like I drug her and offer her really like describing the Pelico case would you be interested to come? He said he had over a 100
[13:43]responses in 48 hours. You know, it's in Quebec. In Germany, they found some uh German journalists found a a telegram
[13:52]group of 70,000 men exchanging recipes of chemical submission and pictures of how they raped their significant others
[14:01]asleep. So, it's not just these men in these town. So first of all, yeah, not all men, but
[14:11]so many men. So many men and Yeah. So many of them. >> And in that sense, I mean, you sat in
[14:19]the trial every day and and listened to the what what excuses or what explanations the men gave. What were they saying?
[14:31]So it was very complicated because I mean you need to put yourself in their shoes which is a bit um but they can't say anything. There are videos I had to
[14:41]watch the videos. The videos leave no doubt you know like you see that you see that they did what they did but you also
[14:50]see that every time she moves by one millimeter they're ready to run away. So it shows that they know that it's absolutely forbidden. It is very clear
[15:00]that she's in a in a coma really and so there's no doubt they they can't believe that she's half asleep or that it's a um
[15:10]scene setting as some said. So they invented things like he gave us her consent. So I I thought
[15:20]it was very interesting because there is a a very old history of women being the possession of men, right? And so there
[15:29]is this guy who said it was his house, his room, his bed, his wife. And I found it fascinating this this list because it really showed that for him it was
[15:41]comparable the bed and the wife and that you own your wife the same way you own a bed. >> Um, >> but also what else could they say there?
[15:52]There was no possible line of defense. Um, but what was interesting for me is that because there was no possible line of defense, you could think and and the
[16:04]the French criminal law allows for it. If you recognize your crimes, if you show that you've thought about it, that basically if you're seen as much less
[16:15]dangerous because you've thought about what happened, you get much fewer years in prison. And in this case in particular, you we don't show the video. They didn't show the videos for the men
[16:26]who recognized. So they had a lot of incentives to do a ma kulpa and still they did not I mean there are so many layers to this.
[16:38]So you talked earlier about how you know Jazelle is seen you know she she's described like a ragd doll isn't she lying on this bed she's snoring. she's
[16:49]she's an older woman and they they there she is seen as this thing and at the same time there is the men's entitlement the sort of denial that they've done
[16:59]anything wrong. I mean how have we got here and what does it say more widely? >> So there are two anecdotes about the trial that I found very telling. One is
[17:09]one of the judges asked the few maybe three or four men that had erection problems on the videos and he said, "But what happened?"
[17:19]But he was really incredulous. But he never asked any of the other men, "Why did you have an erection?" Which was the question that I wanted to hear
[17:30]and the response that I wanted to hear. And it showed that there was even inside the courthouse
[17:39]a shared understanding of what was hot about the scenes. And that I found very troubling because I really think this
[17:48]judge had no idea that it made him side with them in a certain way to >> he understood how the the men were able to do it or were aroused. >> Yeah. >> He he didn't understand the men who
[17:59]weren't. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> And that is the judge. That is really bizarre. And then there is one of the accused who said that the next day after he raped Gizelle Pelico, he talked to
[18:10]friends about it and they said, "Dude, that's hardcore. You raped her. That's a rape." And he said, "Yeah, I realized I really had done a bad thing." But then,
[18:21]so a part of me was really relieved when that happened. I thought, "Okay, at least one that recognizes." But then I thought, a none of these friends
[18:32]notified anyone and b the way he told the story it sounded like what you would say when I don't know
[18:41]someone said well last night I drove too fast or uh I took my parents' car and didn't tell them but it was very clear
[18:51]that their day had kept going etc. But you know had he had he said last night I killed someone or last night I cut the
[19:01]leg of someone the story would have been very different. So there is a question about why are we so used to the idea that women get raped. What are we and
[19:13]and I think as women this is something we have internalized. So I talk I talk about this it's very depressing. I agree. But this fact that we have internalized that
[19:23]we're rapable, that we need to protect ourselves from this rapability, but that this is always on the horizon. There is a very famous feminist philosopher
[19:34]called Susan Bryson who wrote a book about um the aftermath of the rape she was a victim of. And she said in the moment that she got raped, her first
[19:45]thought was, "Oh, that's it. That's the thing against which I was told to protect myself to always be on
[19:55]the lookout etc. that's happening. So it was as if women's lives are kind of oriented by the sexual violence that is
[20:06]permanently threatening them. But it's crazy, you know, like imagine I don't know another then I promise I'll stop with the anecdotes, but I I really don't
[20:17]want to make an analogy, but in Germany, you know, you have and and actually all through Europe, but in Germany, you see it more. You have those little stones they put in front of the houses of Jews
[20:28]who were and and of people who were deported by the Nazis. And I I find it a very powerful thing because it's a sort of decentralized memorial of Nazi
[20:39]violence. And it got me thinking, imagine what were happening if in just one street we were materializing on the
[20:48]walls. How many women have been raped in the street? How many times, you know, like what it would look like? So I think as a society we we are in a sort of
[21:00]collective constantly renewed amnesia of the the size of sexual violence and yeah
[21:09]and I I mean you you you also explore that Hannah Arent's argument about which was made about the Holocaust and the benality of evil that you know ordinary people
[21:21]can do terrible terrible things and that is exactly true here isn't Yes. So I think what I found very interesting with
[21:30]Arent. So to be honest, the reason why I used Arent in the first place is because you know there are not a lot of women philosophers. And so I knew that as a
[21:40]woman philosopher who goes to a trial, everyone would be like, "Oh, you're doing the same as Arent." Even if it's two completely different trials. So I thought okay I'm going to show what I
[21:50]have in common with her um or which thoughts we we can have in common and I think what she is saying about um the
[22:00]Aishman trial is that Aishman first of all can't say anything about what he did and this was also very striking for me that there was this sort of complete
[22:12]lack of introspection complete these men they can't say anything about who they are, what drives them. Um, and that was terrifying
[22:22]because if they can't say anything, then you can't change them. It's as if they are stuck, you know, they they don't have access to their feelings. You know, one of one of the things they said that
[22:34]I found very interesting is many of them said, well, it was a time where my wife or my partner was not having sex with me for X and Y reason. So I went to Gizel
[22:45]Pelico and then you think okay so are the two funible like can you really replace the sex that you're having with your wife by
[22:57]raping a semi dead body of a woman you don't know. So that was for me that was the in a way the most terrifying thing. if they really think that the two are
[23:08]exchangeable, what is it about male sexuality that is going on? Like how can we live with men? Um and then the second point that Arin
[23:19]makes that I find very useful is the question >> about Aikman's crimes and his relation to it in during the during the Holocaust. >> Yeah. So what one thing that she says is that she says we need to look at the
[23:30]complicity of German society. Without German society, Aishman doesn't exist. It's not an individual problem. And this is something that I'm trying to make
[23:39]very explicit in the book. The the reason why there's something unsatisfying about the criminal trial is
[23:49]that we're there are individuals that are trial, but it's very clear that the problem is systematic and and social. It's a social
[24:00]problem of how we perceive women, how men feel um that they don't have accountability, etc. And so the the logic of the criminal law, which is
[24:12]punishing one responsible individual for one crime, is very limited in front of rape culture. I I don't
[24:22]really like rape culture as a but in front of the the whole system of gender hierarchy and and so I really feel like okay you know some people say and I
[24:33]agree with this like rapist should be sent to jail okay but it's really trying to empty the ocean with a little spoon you know like we're going to take one rapist by one rapist when we know that
[24:45]Dominic Pelico can find 70 guy in the blink of an eye in like the in his own surrounding things. How are we are we going to build prisons every week? More
[24:56]prisons and more prisons to put all the rapists there because, you know, we talked about not all men. That's true. But I think you and I know that almost
[25:06]all women have at least one story of sexual violence. And so there's an arithmetic problem. It can't be the case that all women were
[25:18]violated and no men we know violated anyone, you know, like because we feel we have this feeling and I mean that's what you see in Gizelle Pelico's book.
[25:29]She thinks he's a she she calls him a great chap, you know, when when she's first arrested, she says Dominic, he's a great chap. So she thinks the love of
[25:40]his li of her life is a wonderful guy and her sons are wonderful guys and her well she's she she doesn't have doubts about his family but and I think we're all like that. We think the people
[25:52]around us are great but there is an arithmetic problem. It can't be the case that all our friends got violated and none of our male friends violated. But but that business of you know because it
[26:03]wasn't just Jazelle who in that first instance says you know my husband is a good guy. Other other partners said it can't be he can't have done this because he's a great dad. He's a good partner. >> Yes. But
[26:15]>> and why does society in a sense as you say people didn't go the men didn't go away and and phone the police? >> Yes. But that's something I mean as a
[26:25]researcher on these issues I know that rapists are guys next door. I know it. But then I arrived in the courthouse and I talk about it in the book. I was
[26:35]waiting in line and there were these guys that were kind of cutting the line and I thought, well, it's not really the time to play your toxic masculinity that you cut the line >> to get into the public gallery. You thought?
[26:47]>> Yeah. Well, to to enter the courthouse. And so I thought, who are these guys who are cutting the line? And then I realized it was actually the accused. So they didn't have to wait in line with
[26:58]the public because they were forced to be there. And so it was my first moment of oh wow I'm very close to a rapist right now
[27:07]even physically you know and then a bit later that first day there was this guy that I saw several times in the corridor and where I thought you know a bit
[27:17]amused oh he was so my type 15 years ago 20 years ago like as a teenager I would have loved him as a guy and um and then
[27:29]I saw him in the room and And I had really a very troubling experience because he's actually exactly the same age as me. He
[27:40]has a kid who's born I think one week away from my first kid. And as I said like I found him very sexy. And so I
[27:49]could see myself as his wife, as his victim, as his, you know, suddenly I I could occupy very different places
[27:59]around him. And I could see his wife. She thought, "Oh, he's very depressed and I'm helping him and he's such a good guy." But the problem is that we need to
[28:09]recognize that you can both be such a good guy and do this. And this is what we don't want to see. We want to think it's a few rotten apples. We want to
[28:21]think it's psychopath. We we have really this impulse to psychologize it. But it's actually good guys who do this. And this is where Gizelle's book is
[28:32]extraordinary. Is that she could have said, well, I was a victim of a monster and I didn't see it coming. But the whole book is about
[28:41]how do I deal with the fact that there is no doubt that he was a good guy, that he was a good dad, that he was a good husband, that we really loved each
[28:53]other. And the truth is both that he was a good dad and that he took incestrous pictures of his daughter, that he was a
[29:03]good husband and that he almost tortured me to death. And how do we look? I mean, for me as a moral philosopher, that's a fascinating question. Like, how does
[29:14]that work? But it's a terrifying question for all of us, isn't it? And so, you've you've been speaking to Jazelle very recently and she has her book out, her finally she can tell her
[29:25]side of the story. What do you think she achieved given given your sort of the the inadequacies of the court system to
[29:34]to to tackle more broadly this issue of sexual violence against women? She was waving her anonymity. She knew what she was doing because she knew people would
[29:45]sit up and pay attention. Maybe the voyerism or something that you touch on. But what has she achieved in doing this? Do you think what she's achieved? imagined for one second that it would
[29:55]have that much impact. Um, but I think what happened so I told her I I don't want to talk in her place because I
[30:05]think she's less feminist than me or less radical in her feminism than me. But I do think that her book you really see the trial as the
[30:15]birth of a feminist that she really she arrived there really thinking I don't want to pit men against women etc. And then she went through four months
[30:26]at the end of which she was talking about patriarchy and toxic masculinity and she had just experienced in her flesh how the system had patriarchal
[30:36]sides. How these men didn't feel sorry. how how these lawyers were helping them not feel sorry were were enabling them
[30:45]in in their crimes etc. Um and I think it it was really a it was really a consciousness raising exercise for her.
[30:55]But also what is fascinating about what she did is that you know her husband one thing that strikes me is that he only talks about her even during the trial. He never
[31:06]calls her by her name. She is only my only love, my saint, my absolute love, my So she's this abstract figure of
[31:17]perfection. Um, and by the way, we know that there is this sort of trope of I'm going to kill the woman for the love I have for her. This is a very old
[31:28]trope of men with women. But and these 50 other men that were trial, they just saw her as a body or a thing.
[31:38]And she claimed her name. She, you know, it used to be a trial. It used to be the Pelico trial because of Dominic Pelico, but now for everyone it's the Gizelle
[31:49]Pelico trial. She got a first name. Her her last name became her last name, not his. And it's very interesting because in philosophy so Simo B in the the
[32:00]second sex talks about um how women are seen in a sort of general way they're always a woman you know like you have a
[32:10]we see it on on the news when when we're told oh Peru has a female prime minister or a woman got named at the head of the World Bank or something like that. So
[32:21]it's always a woman and what BVA says is we need to fight sexism by recognizing women are as singular human beings and
[32:33]that's exactly what Gizelle managed to do. She became a singular human being that had a name, a last name and a story because this is what she does in her
[32:43]book. She tells the story of her life. She she narrates herself as a full subject with a singular specific
[32:52]history. And that is exactly the counter move of patriarchy which is why so so this is how the shame changed sides is
[33:03]that instead of being voiceless she managed to have not only a voice but her voice her own voice.
[33:14]What does it change that I mean Bvoir was Bvoir was writing decades ago and so what does it change in the fight against violence against women for example if
[33:26]your your book paints the bleakest of pictures about the men not all men who are willing and able to go and rape a
[33:33]comeomaos woman lying on a bed and yet still be in denial still be quite sort of cocky and and sort of arrogant
[33:44]in their not not willing to be held accountable. So are we left with the idea that unless men want to stop raping women, it will
[33:55]never happen. >> So I mean we can look at it the Gizel's way. You know her book is a an optimistic book. It's about joy. It's
[34:05]about renewed hope etc. So it's from the inside the story of a possible reconstruction. So that in itself is a
[34:15]source of hope. I'm I have the the sad work of being the outsider that describes the how how it even happened, how it was made possible. But I think
[34:27]what I do in the book is that I'm not just writing a sort of abstract objective philosophy book. I write a lot in the first person about what it does
[34:36]to me. Um, and I think one of the things I experienced in this courthouse is a is the most the strongest feeling of
[34:46]women's solidarity I've ever felt in my life. And that, you know, I'm I'm an academic. Feminist academics talk a lot about can we even say we the women. Is
[34:57]there even a we? Like women's lives are very different. But you know, Giselle Peliko, she received thousands of letters from everywhere in the world every day. So she really says she
[35:07]received letters that were addressed as Gizel Pelico Avenue. It was just the address on and it got to her and you know there was these aboriginal women
[35:18]from Australia who came and gave her a scarf. She was recently in Brazil at the Corkovado and women were crying saying,
[35:28]"Oh, you're cool." She We were in this room applauding her every morning and every night. And in this applause, there
[35:38]was something about we're here with you. It could be us. Maybe it is some of us. And we're having this consciousness of
[35:49]this needs to stop. And I think, you know, like this is the thing about chemical submission and about her case that people think, oh, you know, I hear some people say, "Oh, yeah, it's gotten
[36:01]really bad sexual violence." I'm like, "No, it's always be like that. It's just that finally we get to talk about it." The cases of chemical submission in the
[36:10]UK, like, who knows if we would have heard about it without the pit trial. Right now, there are cases in Germany, in France, in the US, in the UK.
[36:20]Suddenly people acknowledge, yeah, they are husbands who drug their wives and their daughters to rape them. And there is also this strong feeling that it has to stop.
[36:31]>> I mean, we're running out of time, but I do want just a couple more really quickly if I can. Um, you talk about, you know, all of the women there looked at Jeazelle and thought, "This could be
[36:41]me." Are enough men looking at the men and thinking, "Could this be me?" So the the whole book, so that's why I call my
[36:51]book Living with Men is that I wanted it to be like, "Guys, we need you, you know, and I haven't heard you enough. We haven't heard you enough." And I don't
[37:00]want men to be shamed about their masculinity or anything like that, but I want them to look at themselves. The way we look at ourselves and at what could
[37:11]happen to us, I mean, it's way easier to identify with the victim than with the torture. So, I understand that there are men who say, "Well, no, I'm sorry. I'm a good person. I would never do this." But
[37:22]the question is when like, has it happened that you've left your best friend bring back a drunken girl from the pub? Have you
[37:32]turned a blind eye to sexist jokes? Have you made other let other women be made uncomfortable by things that happened, etc.? Like the only way we're going to
[37:44]change things is if men look at painful parts. And the the problem is that just as much in the Epstein case as in this
[37:55]case, people say, "Oh, we didn't know." But the question is rather we didn't want to know is how comfortable it is to
[38:05]not look at the difficult sides, at the difficult tendencies. So I want to tell men like please look at it even if it's really uncomfortable.
[38:16]>> And when you've spoken to Jazelle and she says she she is hopeful. It's a she has optimism. I just wonder do you >> I'm less optimistic than her certainly.
[38:27]Um because also I think she gets she she is in her own story, you know, but I'm I remember the my first day in the courthouse was the day of the election
[38:39]of Donald Trump and I used to live in the US and um I remember seeing all these reactions to this masculinist incel influencer Nick Fuentes who had
[38:51]tweeted your body my choice, you know, and I was in this courtroom seeing the tweets It's like all these manosphere retweeting your body my
[39:02]choice and seeing all these videos about her body their choice. It it kind of contained my enthusiasm and my optimism
[39:13]about the future. >> And just to be clear, your body, my choice is is is men claiming. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it's men that are um uh reusing this feminist slogan of my body,
[39:24]my choice, and saying now that Trump is elected, you see, we're going to go back to the good old times of your body, my choice. And I think
[39:34]>> we need to be careful about optimism >> and and and just finally, everyone talks about it is about how we bring up our boys, mothers and fathers. Is it as simple as
[39:46]that? I think it's partly as simple as that. But um I don't want to think only my kids would get to see a better world. So
[39:56]it's not just the boys. We need to educate our husbands, our brothers, our friends, etc. It's a lifelong education I think. But also one thing maybe like a
[40:07]very practical aspect to to conclude is that now we've seen studies that show the best predictor of the gender views
[40:16]of children is not um how much time their father spends with them is how their father treats their mom and um participates in the everyday life etc.
[40:28]So all these guys who are absent are training their kids, educating their kids much more than the mothers that are home or taking care of the kids and
[40:38]juggling a job and child care etc. The men who are absent are educating just as much or even more than the women. And so
[40:49]it needs to be also a question about fathers. We need to educate the fathers so that they can educate the boys. Professor Manon Garcia, thank you so much for talking to us.
[41:00]>> Thank you for having me. >> That is it from us right now. Until next time, goodbye.