[0:00]Welcome to the 60-Minutes podcast Extra-Minutes. I'm Tara Brown. And I'm Laura Sparks. >> Welcome Laura. We're here to talk about the woman of the moment, Virginia Giuffre. Yes. Someone that you know very
[0:11]well and one of the few journalists in the world you have spent a lot of time with Virginia. Well, comparatively. Yeah, I mean, I met her
[0:19]in 2019 and uh traveled to Queensland to interview her and her husband and and uh spent some time with her in Australia
[0:28]there. We went horse riding and um met up at the pub. >> [laughter] >> Um and then traveled to New York to interview her uh more fulsomely in New
[0:38]York. And so, yes, we've been following this story for some time and um and you know, and have followed Virginia's travails as well. I also spoke to her
[0:49]when um Ghislaine Maxwell was finally uh found and arrested and and that was certainly a very happy moment for Virginia. So, I've also spoken to her at
[0:59]that time. So, I do feel like I do I've had time with her and I got to know her a little bit. I can't say we knew each other intimately at all, of course, but um but no, she was she was a very
[1:11]down-to-earth, very giving, uh very warm human being. And so, for you knowing what's happening at the moment, how sad is it do you think that she's
[1:22]not here to see all this? >> Oh, it's really I mean, it's very sad, full stop. Um you know, she's a mom of three kids and as I said, a very warm and loving
[1:32]person. So, it's incredibly sad, but you know, she she has been, if you like to say, beating the same drum for for a long time. >> Mhm.
[1:41]Long before I'd met her and uh so, for the world to kind of catch up is bittersweet. It's it's it's very bittersweet. >> Yeah. And um you and I both spent time
[1:53]with the family in Colorado. Well, you got a sense. Yeah. Her brothers are very much like her, especially Sky. >> Yeah, I sort of more than humor. Yeah,
[2:02]he's a he's a really sweet-natured man and um you know, we could well, that day we were there interviewing them, we could feel his heartache at losing his sister and also the frustration of her
[2:14]not being able to see this through. Um you know, in your recent interview that you did with them just last week. Yes. Um it's it's incredibly frustrating for that family, but isn't it fantastic that
[2:26]they're moving her memory forward and reminding people that this came about largely because of what our sister did and had to say. Yeah, absolutely. And they you know, they're confronting some
[2:37]very personal allegations now that Virginia's memoir has been released. Uh specifically allegations against uh
[2:45]Sky's natural father and and Danny's um the man who raised Danny. Um those allegations, you know, uh go right into their home. They've come
[2:56]out in support of their sister. Uh he denies those allegations, of course, but um you know, they have had to take on the mantle. And I when I say take on, I
[3:06]don't think it was ever their natural position to be lobbying, to be out there on camera, to you know, talking and pleading for uh
[3:17]help and and support, but they've been doing that in their sister's name. So, I think that the the the the change that we've seen coming out of Great Britain and um and the moves against Prince
[3:28]Andrew, the former former Prince Andrew, uh you know, his reckoning has come in terms of his friendship with Epstein. I think that's a a win that the family
[3:39]feels very keenly. They've definitely risen to the occasion, haven't they? Yeah. You know, we we No. >> No, no, we've met them. They're they're lovely people who are not used to
[3:50]television, um are not used to giving interviews. And when I spoke to them the other day, the morning of when we found out that Prince Andrew was no longer Prince Andrew, uh I rang Amanda and
[4:00]Amanda says, "Oh, we're getting a um a mobile studio parked out the front and we're going to go back-to-back CBS, you know, CNN, you know, ABC, BBC. Oh, we can fit you in as
[4:12]well." I'm like, "What? Oh, okay. I've never heard of a mobile studio." >> [laughter] >> But you know, And I bet you Amanda hadn't either. >> No. Until now. Amanda being um
[4:21]Virginia's sister-in-law, yeah. And I and I think, you know, meeting the family gives us an even greater insight into Virginia as well. I mean, you know,
[4:32]she's known because she's appeared on camera on the steps of the courts in New York and she's gone up against, you know, Prince Andrew formerly and and Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell,
[4:43]these big names. She she has a big presence, but her beginnings were humble. Um she's you know, she was so down-to-earth. They she was not from a wealthy family. She had a very troubled
[4:55]childhood and um you know, she she told me and and she details in her book that she, you know, was first sexually assaulted when she was 7 years old uh by
[5:05]a family friend and and we've since discovered uh since her memoir was released that that she she then accuses her father of doing similar. So, and then she's got trafficked by someone
[5:16]else, not even in the Epstein circle and and then that leads to her that vulnerability really puts her in front of Ghislaine Maxwell who who then, you know, convinces her to meet with Jeffrey
[5:26]Epstein to follow her dream to become a masseuse, a professional masseuse and and she's sexually assaulted in that very first meeting. I mean, it is such a tragic story.
[5:37]>> Yeah. How quickly did they act on that? Well, so I'll put it this way. We did the back of him. We did the back of Epstein. So, we did the feet, the calves, the thighs, the buttocks, the
[5:48]back, shoulders and scalp. And then when he turned over, um that's when I was instructed to um
[5:59]to That's when I was instructed to um get undressed and um
[6:10]and have sex with Jeffrey Epstein while Ghislaine Maxwell was participating as well. Getting back to Sky, I think it must,
[6:19]you know, Sky talks about reading for the first time what his own father did to his own sister. Mhm. I can't imagine how difficult that would have been for him.
[6:30]>> No, I No, because every your world is turned upside down over and over, isn't it? >> Yeah. Well, where do you how do you make sense of it? And and how that plays out,
[6:40]I guess we're yet to learn. But it was going to play out, wasn't it? From what Sky said, you know, he's he he he positioned himself behind his sister. He believes her and he he has, you know,
[6:52]asked his father to own up to a shameful act as I said, an act that the father denies. I believe my sister. That's the thing, I believe her. We
[7:03]believe her. We've always believed her. I mean, he knows what he did. This is the first time he's even hearing me speak about this, Tara. And like, this is the first time he will even know that
[7:14]I'm coming up against him in some [music] ways and saying, "You know what? No. I believe her." I can't imagine how difficult it is for
[7:23]you. I mean, what but what do you believe should happen to your father? For me to not come out and tell you the same thing should happen to him that should have happened to Prince Andrew
[7:34]would be remiss of me as an as a basic human being as Also, and it's so hard to say as his son,
[7:45]as his child, to say, "You know what? You should be publicly shamed. You should be shameful of what you did." >> In the book, she also details in she
[7:56]talked to you about the blackmail of Epstein um moving in that house and one day discovering that there's cameras in every room. I think she walks in and sees Epstein talking to two security
[8:08]guards who she didn't even know existed. >> Well, she didn't know the room existed. It was sort of on the way out and it must have been hidden. Um you know, we we went to the mansion, but um I I didn't get to go in. There was nobody
[8:19]answering the door when I knocked. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, surprise, surprise, 2019 is the year Jeffrey Epstein died in prison. It was when it really hit the the airwaves, but um
[8:30]yeah, she tells this terrifying story really of discovering this room and seeing this bank of monitors and realizing that's the room she stays in,
[8:40]that's the bathroom she uses. Every room was covered and uh and she said it was very, very clear that Epstein was
[8:49]recording this and keeping these tapes. And she said to me, her belief that time was because she believed he always wanted to have something on people,
[8:58]something in his back pocket. And he's you know, he had all manner of guests, but her position was that they were being watched and they were being filmed
[9:07]and those tapes are somewhere. Mhm. How did he gather evidence of this trafficking? You know, how did he enable the threat of
[9:17]blackmail to exist? Otherwise, it's just the word against mouth. Yeah, exactly. No, um so, I got proof in New York in his New York mansion. I don't even think
[9:29]he meant to bring me into this room, but we were walking we were going out of his house. We were walking out and um right before you walk out to the front door, there's this door that I never
[9:38]even really noticed was there. And it it led to this room where he brought in and he was talking to some of the security guards. I didn't know there were security guards in there. And
[9:48]there's like so many little TV monitors everywhere. I mean, just stacks and stacks and stacks of them. And I saw my room
[9:57]and I saw my toilet and where my shower was I and I saw the massage room and I was so utterly mortified. I was like
[10:09]this guy's watching me go to the toilet. He's watching everything that happens in the massage room. He's watching in me in my bedroom. He's you know, like everything's being recorded and that's
[10:19]when I realized that's how he's getting away with blackmailing everybody. The blackmail was part of his sort of toolbox, wasn't it? I mean, she's also told you about how he
[10:29]blackmailed her with saying that he knew where Sky was going to school at the time. Yeah, threats. That's right. I mean that you know, he threats were part of his modus operandi
[10:41]when anybody ever came up against him and yes, she did say that that that she was basically warned that if she was ever to mention what was going on in that house and in the other houses
[10:53]that she was transported to uh that he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he had somebody he could hurt. And that was her little brother, five
[11:03]years five years younger than her. So he would have been a what? 12 or something? Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mhm. So yeah, she's confronted with a photograph of her brother from school.
[11:14]I mean uh it just speaks to this man, doesn't it? >> Yeah, Sky talked about that as well recently to you, you know, um that must
[11:23]make I think it would make you feel slightly like it's it's your fault, you know, like without obviously she's got he's got nothing to do with it, but it would have been a terrible thing for him to read. I think
[11:35]I think you know, that that's right. It's coupled with this inadequacy to help in any way and then to realize you've also been used to allow the abuse
[11:45]to continue, you know, it trapped her uh there. She couldn't escape because he might hurt her family. Um she couldn't complain or tell anybody because he might hurt her family. I mean
[11:57]I think if you're that family member, not that he should feel any sense of responsibility, but I think Sky does. >> Yeah, but it also speaks to you know, a lot of people have always said why did
[12:08]she stay for so long? Well she stayed because she was threatened with situations like this against her own little brother. Yeah, absolutely. I think that
[12:18]the reason behind her staying is multi-layered from her own accounts and that is you know, prominent foremost um
[12:27]but also she'd been schooled into believing that this is all she deserved, you know, that she had a history of of
[12:37]of being shown that all she was good for was to be sexually abused by older men and and well it turned out the allegation was
[12:47]by women also when Ghislaine Maxwell was in the picture, but um she was primed to be a victim of Epstein's is how she put it, you know, that that because
[12:58]cuz I said to her, you know, this happened to you in your very first encounter with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And she said yes, I said I know it's an
[13:08]awful question, but why did you go back? You know, she got dropped home after it by their driver, but she went back. And she said it was I
[13:18]my all my dreams evaporated in that moment. I felt stupid for thinking I could dream and that somebody would make my dream come true and that was to be a masseuse. Um
[13:29]and she thought this is normal. This is what normal is. This is what I have to do. This is all I can do because every time she encountered adults of that who promised her anything, they did that
[13:41]to her. It's interesting and she obviously eventually, you know, she she managed to escape, but also she ended up in this country in Australia. Yes.
[13:50]>> Um where you first met her and she loved it, didn't she? Oh, she absolutely loved it. She she she called our crew her favorite little Aussies and um
[14:02]um and you know, when I said earlier we went horse riding together and she talked there about oh, she loved horses. She'd loved horses all her life, but we got to go horse
[14:12]riding together which was great fun. But she talked there about her love of Australia and it wasn't just the country, though she really did enjoy the
[14:22]the quiet of the country. Um but it was just she could be herself here. This is where she became an adult. This is where she learned that she had value beyond
[14:34]being some sort of sex toy and um so she learned to cook, you know, mother-in-law helped her cook. Um she had children. She she became a mother. Which was
[14:45]everything to her. Everything to her. >> Everything. Yeah. For me it was a second chance at a new life. I'll always be grateful to Australians. Um
[14:55]down to his blood. I love it. It was the birth of her daughter that led to her giving up her anonymity and and coming
[15:06]out and and discussing this in the headlines publicly. Um you know, she just she just wanted to change the world. face what she'd gone through and and it
[15:20]was looking down at her baby daughter in her arms that made her decide to tackle this on publicly. Yeah, you say she wanted to make a difference and so in that interview that you did with the family last week, Amanda brought
[15:32]that up that she said I just want to make a small dent. >> [laughter] >> But she did a lot more than that, didn't she? Yes, I I think so. [laughter] She brought down a prince.
[15:42]>> She brought down a prince and I don't think she ever thought she would actually. I mean she'd hoped to and when we talked about it, whether she was confident that that she would ever get
[15:53]justice in that way. I don't she wasn't convinced and it went on for years, so you can understand why not, but she kept going, didn't she? And yeah, I think
[16:03]to bring down a prince is a big thing. Family thinks that their little sister big sister did it. You know, they they accredit her with that.
[16:14]Uh it's it's quite extraordinary when you look at that, you know, where it where it was and where it ended up. You know, this
[16:25]Jeffrey Epstein just he just had there were just so many young women involved, hurt by this person. He had homes everywhere. He was
[16:36]connected to everyone. He was so wealthy. And you know, you had you had voices like Virginia's who came out against him. But to imagine that that at the end of the day Epstein would
[16:47]be dead, Maxwell in jail is in jail and the man that she accused of being trafficked to the man formerly known as Prince Andrew
[16:56]has been humiliated and and lost everything that is important to him. I mean I don't think anybody thought it would end this way. >> No, and and and sad as it is, what an
[17:07]incredible epitaph for her. Yeah, yeah. >> She brought down the prince. Yeah, I mean you know, as as you were saying and and as her sister-in-law pointed out in the book, she just wanted to make a
[17:18]small dent. Well, she's made a huge huge dent. And you know, I think I think the regret perhaps is that people didn't realize that earlier. It took us so long. Yeah, that she's not
[17:29]here to see it. Yeah. Part of us just wanted to to call her and and tell her that the truth is out for you to [music] see
[17:39]and the world believes you when they didn't believe you before and that is just so bittersweet and there is this chapter in the book where she says, I just want
[17:51]to make a small dent in this huge world. And when all these things came to surface with Prince Andrew, I wanted to tell her, man, you broke
[18:02]you broke it. You broke the system and it's such a beautiful thing and you just made the biggest impact. Well, thank you for letting me chat
[18:14]about Virginia. I look back on that interview with her and I just feel very sad, you know, that she's not here and um because she was she was as I said a
[18:25]delight to be around and very warm and very insistent that what she was saying was the truth and um and when you know that people are sort of you know, they're they're gobbling up
[18:36]her book and and there's great sympathy towards her. It's just sad that she didn't see that. Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah, I know it's incredibly sad. Thank you, Tara, for inviting me onto the
[18:47]couch. [laughter] Thank you for helping with this story. >> [laughter] >> We're lucky, aren't we? We meet great people and and tell some
[18:57]amazing stories. Yeah. And if you've missed our stories on Virginia Giuffre and the man formerly known as Prince Andrew, you can always catch it on our
[19:06]YouTube channel. Thank you for watching.