[0:00]Why is Prince Andrew back in the news? What has triggered it this time? >> Well, Prince Andrew never really leaves the news, but there's been a sort of tsunami of coverage over the last couple
[0:11]of weeks, and this is largely due to leaked emails that have come, I think, from Gain Maxwell. >> Why do you believe Ghislaine Maxwell is leaking these emails? Aren't they great, mates?
[0:21]>> I think Gain Maxwell is still keen to get her pardon or to get some sort of um yeah, cushy life. I think she clearly was friends with Andrew. I mean, they're
[0:31]former lovers, but um uh I I think she's she's she's doing her own survival at the moment. Uh and if that requires bringing Andrew down, then that's fine. >> So, by bringing Andrew down, she's
[0:43]protecting Donald Trump in some way. I mean, is that the motivation? >> Yes, I think Donald Trump uh uh is worried about what Andrew might say. There's a lot of disc I mean,
[0:52]discrediting of Andrew in order to avoid any sort of scrutiny elsewhere. Uh, and this, I think, is very much a mark by Gain to to earn some brownie points with
[1:03]Donald Trump. >> Some of these emails, if we look a little more at the details, suggest uh by Andrew's own admissions that he might have known Virginia Gre there might well
[1:14]that he did know Virginia Grey, that there might be a photo coming out. Um, I mean, it reveals that he was completely misleading when he said he'd never met her.
[1:25]>> Yes. I mean I I've known for a long time and I put this in the book that I mean you know the evidence for their their meeting is is pretty overwhelming. I mean this is from independent testimony and witnesses apart from her own
[1:37]testimony and the things like the flight logs from Lolita. So I mean it was very obvious that he was lying. He has a long history of of of lying and he's got away
[1:45]with it in the past. Um but I think now exactly that there was um this cooperation in the emails that he knew her, he'd met her, he was worried about the photograph, which no one everyone
[1:57]claims his fate. And indeed, I found evidence that he um Gain and Epstein were working with a PR firm to try and discredit uh Jeffrey very early on.
[2:08]>> Well, you reveal in your book that Andrew actually chose Virginia from a series of photos that Ghislaine Maxwell had sent him. Yes, from two different sources. Uh I mean people have seen
[2:18]basically this book of photographs that would be circulated and people would choose who they wanted to to meet. Uh and it makes sense. I mean this it would be it's not a a set menu, shall we say,
[2:29]and it was alikart and he was able to to decide what he wanted. And I think it's pretty sorted. I mean this poor 17-year-old ordered like as you might order a takeaway. But this I think you know points to just his sense of
[2:41]entitlement the sort of element of Dwight deser that he has uh he doesn't sort of think of anyone except his own personal interests and this is why I think he's found it so hard to to to
[2:52]make any sort of apology or to show any sort of contrition about actually what he's been up to and this is just another example of the sort of nastiness I suppose of Andrew.
[3:04]>> How much trouble do you think he's in? Yes, I think Prince Andrew should be in big trouble. I mean, this is an offense here. Uh there's problems under the data protection act, a malfcence of public
[3:14]conduct. He's placed as protection officer, paid for by the taxpayers in a difficult position. And we need to discover whether that um uh request was passed up uh up up the chain of command
[3:25]at the police or within the palace, whether actually he he did make investigations. I suspect he did. I think there are many other things that he could be charged with. uh I think the
[3:35]sex trafficking um of Virginia Gifrey, she was underage um at the time. Uh that and and and people did ask for this to be investigated. I think three times the
[3:45]the Met said nothing to see here. Uh and I think also there's a case um for his basically financial corruption, the way that he abused his position as the special representative for trade and
[3:57]investment between 2001 and 2011. He was helping his business chums do business uh for example in China and the Middle East. Uh and he was himself doing
[4:06]business on his own behalf. Uh and I think there's a strong case there uh for him to be investigated, charged, and I believe he should be convicted. >> What do you think the chances are of that happening?
[4:18]>> Well, we're at a tipping point. uh public opinion is is uh rather like the death of Diana is way ahead of uh of the the palace and I think they also want
[4:28]him to be investigated to be charged and I think they would like him to be detained at his majesty's pleasure. I think they need to be able to start reading the rumor a bit better than they
[4:38]have so far. I think there will be and the media have picked up on this. There have been lots of editorials talking about the the monarchy being in peril. uh this infection has sort of spread
[4:48]into the wider uh body politic. I think it's it's actually I wouldn't say it's going to bring the monarchy down, but it's certainly diminishing any respect there is for the monarchy and members of the royal family. It's affecting the
[5:00]government who are fudging it and refusing to do give parliamentary time to removing his titles as people want. I think of the almost twothirds of of the population
[5:10]want uh this to happen. So um I'm not holding my breath. Um, I put in, for example, freedom of information requests over the years to find out what the police investigations were. They refused
[5:21]to answer them, which suggests they did nothing. But we do have a new commissioner of police. We do, I think, uh, have um, a different situation. I think there's just much more evidence
[5:32]about his activities now in the public domain. And I don't think the public will put up with some sort of cover up again. So I think if they are uh going to try and get ahead of this scandal,
[5:43]they need to do something quite drastic. >> And with the passing of the queen, does Prince Andrew actually have any support within the palace? And does he have anyone on his side?
[5:54]>> No, I don't think Andrew has many people on his side. I think uh Charles gave an undertaking to to their mother that he would take care of Andrew, but uh no one in the royal family likes him. Um uh
[6:05]he's made a lot of enemies on the way up. I don't think anyone in the palace likes him. So, I can't think he's going to be left to hang out to dry. And they need some sort of sacrificial victim to
[6:15]keep the baying mob away from what they call their principles, which is the king himself. >> And clearly, Prince William doesn't like him very much, going by his facial uh
[6:26]expressions the other day. >> No, I mean, I think this is the other strong factor. I think Charles is a much more uh um less confrontational figure. I think William realizes the threat to
[6:37]the reputation of the monarchy. He has no time for his uncle uh who's been rude about his own wife Katherine uh who he despises because of the way he's behaved
[6:47]uh who has completely different values. Uh and he is much more ruthless I think about cutting him off. I mean there's there talks of him not being invited to the coronation in the way the Duke of Windsor wasn't invited to the queen's
[6:58]coronation. >> And what about Sarah Ferguson? Well, Sarah Ferguson's interesting because she's the great comeback kid. Uh, and I think she will find some way to emerge from this. Uh, I think there's a good chance she may go to Switzerland where
[7:10]she once wanted to move and take a Swiss nationality and be have a tax dodge. Um, I mean, she clearly is a highly diminished figure. I mean, no charity or publisher, I think, would want to touch
[7:21]her now. But she has, you know, these contacts in places like China and the Middle East. She's a great um, uh, pecky sharp figure. uh she'll have sharp elbows and find some way of making some
[7:32]money. Uh she will uh uh go to some chat show uh and she will reinvent herself with with a litany of lies in the way that she has in the past. So I think
[7:44]that'll be interesting what happens to her. Whether she sticks with her ex-husband now he's no longer a member of the royal family uh and they're not living in royal lodge is an interesting question. Um he may need to go somewhere
[7:55]where there's no extradition treaty for example with Britain. Do you really think that uh Prince Andrew will flee that he'll leave? >> I think he will go somewhere where the jurisdiction can't reach him if it gets
[8:06]to that stage >> like where where do you think? >> Well, the Middle East is the obvious place. He's been offered a palace in Abu Dhabi. He has a lot of protectors and friends there. I mean, his great play
[8:17]place was Thailand. That's another option. That's where he used to go and have fun. Again, um a very traditional society in many ways where he would be protected. In your book, you you make
[8:28]the claim that in Thailand, not only did Prince Andrew enjoy the company of young women, but that he enjoyed the company of effeminite young men.
[8:39]>> Yes. I mean, you know, there have been long rumors about um his bisexuality. I mean, there's clearly nothing wrong with with bisexuality, but it's clearly another secret that he's been hiding.
[8:50]Just to take you back in terms of Virginia's date of birth and social security number, how did he get hold of that? Who would have supplied Prince Andrew with that information?
[9:01]>> Well, I think it's pretty clear that the material uh this information was supplied by Epstein. Epstein would have been given this material, this information if he was employing uh uh
[9:10]Virginia. So, it's an abuse of of uh you know, Epstein's position as her employer. But you know these people they they were a little sort of group of elites who were sort of passing
[9:21]information passing girls between themselves passing information uh who kind of felt that they were masters of the universe and they could do what they wanted. They had bought off the police
[9:30]as Epstein said. Uh they had very good lawyers who could intimidate anyone who who challenged them. They had uh intimidated the media. Uh we remember
[9:41]the way that ABC television backed off any investigation into Andrew. uh um for threat of losing access to members of the royal family after pressure from the palace. Uh and so we're actually not
[9:53]really just talking about a rogue royal. We're talking about endemic corruption which has permeated I think the institution itself. The queen protected him. She was often giving him honors
[10:02]immediately after some new disgrace. Um complaints that were made to her were ignored. uh when the press went to the palace with uh various claims
[10:12]allegations they were then they were denied when they were found to be absolutely true and the proof was provided the police the palace would then uh try and set lawyers onto the
[10:23]press. So I mean this is a much bigger problem than I think people have realized and this is why unless the palace gets a grip on it is much more open about in the future about how they
[10:33]deal with it um they will uh it will give a sense of a a stench of corruption right through the institution. >> How has the public there responded to
[10:44]understanding the depth of the friendship between Epstein and Prince Andrew? that Andrew again lied, that he claimed he'd cut off all contact uh with
[10:56]Epstein in 2010, only to reveal that he in fact was writing emails to them to the man in 2011. >> Well, I think that the public are
[11:06]appalled by what they're discovering literally day by day. I found when I was researching the book, a lot of people were happy to talk to me from the Navy, for example, and diplomats because they were appalled about the cover up and how
[11:17]Andrew being protected. Uh but I think the public has become aware I mean clearly first with the publication of my book in August and then with the sort of series of revelations since then in the
[11:29]media I I think they they they they haven't realized how bad the problem was. Particularly I think with Sarah Ferguson who'd always had this reputation as a slightly ditsy um but
[11:39]rather good-hearted woman. uh and to see the levels of deception, the way that she'd abused her position as a charity, as a humanitarian, the way that she had made money off her royal position. I
[11:51]think this shocked a lot of people. It had been covered up and the press has become much more emboldened in revealing these things now. Um you know, after since my book's come out, I mean, they reported it very widely and they've
[12:03]actually continued their own investigations finding uh new material. So, I think there really has been a change of public attitude and media attention, too. People are not scared
[12:13]now. Uh, I I think Andrew is on the ropes. So is Sarah Ferguson. And I think people are just hoping to put in the knockout blow. >> Speaking to the depth of that friendship, you claim that Sarah
[12:25]Ferguson was indebted to Epstein to the tune much more than what she's claimed. We've heard figures of £15,000 to perhaps £100,000. How much do you believe she was in debt
[12:37]to him? I >> I believe it's about 2 million. I mean, both Epstein and and Sarah Ferguson don't deal in small amount, but I I've got two very good sources separately have said the same figure of 2 million.
[12:47]I mean, she talked about $100,000 being for her small bills. Uh, and at one point she was £5 million in debt. So, uh, £15,000, which she insisted, she would often get newspapers to correct it
[12:59]to £15,000. Again, showing what a a liar she is. It could be more. I mean it was over a long period of time. Uh and um you know who knows what how it all added up.
[13:10]>> The words in the email from Prince Andrew to Jeffrey Epstein in 2011 when he at just before the photograph comes out where he says we're in this
[13:22]together, you know, stay in touch and we'll play again soon. What do you make of those words? Well, it shows that the relationship with Epstein was much closer than he's claimed. I mean, he would say that he
[13:34]only saw him a few times, but they were very good friends in the way that Epstein was very good friends with Trump. Uh Epstein described Andrew as the only person he's found that's more
[13:46]perverted than I am. He called him the king of kink. And it's very clear from this the tenure of the conversation and indeed the number of times that Andrew stayed with Epstein. I mean, housekeepers talk of
[13:57]him being a regular guest. There was a a suite of rooms at the Manhattan townhouse called the Bratannia Suite reserved just for Andrew because he was there so often. I think what also I
[14:08]found shocking was that the court were covering up some of these visits. So he would be if you look at the court circular it would say he was some at one particular place let's say somewhere in Britain when in fact the flight logs
[14:19]show uh that Andrew was was was visiting Epstein. So, you know, it wasn't that there was a sort of concerted plan to to protect Andrew on these visits, which I
[14:30]find pretty shocking. >> And we'll play some more soon. Four exclamation marks, knowing the world that Epstein played
[14:41]in. It's stomach churning really. >> Yes, it is. Exactly. Uh, and I think, you know, they they they clearly, you know, you got to remember that they didn't expect these emails ever to emerge. uh they probably weren't
[14:52]thinking. Uh they didn't really care. They thought that they were safe. Um that no one could touch them. And so we get this this actually very honest uh communication between the two of them.
[15:04]Uh and I think as you say, it says it all because we know what playing was. You know, Virginia Gifrey talks about for example the orgy with young girls with Andrew on the island. Um, and there
[15:14]are plenty of examples of this of this sense of of elites just operating exactly as they wish. Uh, treating young
[15:23]girls as just foder meat that they can they can play with. >> How much of a tipping point is this for the public there to to actually believe
[15:35]Virginia what what Virginia has been saying for years? >> Well, I I I hope it is a tipping point. I mean, you know, she un withstood huge number of attacks uh particularly from
[15:47]people like Victoria Harvey and others who were sort of put up to this by Andrew. I mean, he has a sophisticated PR machine. Maxwell family too were paying people to try and discredit her.
[15:58]People were constantly sending material saying that the photograph is fake and she is, you know, she is a worse worse person than than even Glain Maxwell. You know, really horrible horrible things.
[16:10]And of course, this must have, you know, been very upsetting to her. The fact she'd raised her head above a parapit and they were out to get her. Even I was pretty much vilified when the book came out. People didn't really believe the story. I was accused of being just a
[16:21]salacious gossip munger. Um, and things have changed uh since her book came out. and I think some of these um revelations from the Epstein papers, but I think you
[16:31]know a lot of it was she was patently it was patently clear that she was an honest witness uh very bravely coming forward. Without her, none of this probably would ever have emerged. Uh and
[16:42]you know, everything when I did my book checked out. I I went into it in a skeptical manner to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and just time and time again she was proved to be correct
[16:53]and Andrew was proved to be a liar. >> It's just so sad that it's happening after her death. >> Yes, it is. And you know, you see these interviews with her uh and u you know
[17:05]and now you know you real you know knowing what was going to happen uh you know and I do find it strange. I mean there's a great mystery about the circumstances of her death. very little information has been released. Talking
[17:16]to people who knew her well said that she was excited about the publication of her book. She was actually quite a strong woman. But, you know, she was going through maritable problems at the time. And you can imagine that after all
[17:26]the pressure that had been put on her over all those years, the attempts to intimidate her and uh and denigrate her that, you know, maybe that eventually caught up with her.
[17:36]>> How has her book been received? Well, I think it's been received with great uh respect, with a lot of tension. Uh Amy Wallace is a wellrespected ghost writer that a lot of due diligence has been
[17:47]done so that the people cannot uh level the the accusations they made before. I hope that people will look again at some of the things that were said. For
[17:57]example, Alan Dersowitz, uh she had to apologize to um because she claimed that he had been involved. Um uh uh my own investigation suggests that Alan Dowitz
[18:08]is much more involved than perhaps people realize and I hope some of those stories will emerge. I think the one sad thing uh is that um uh that that the
[18:18]people weren't named in her book. Uh and it's a shame that Amy Wallace hasn't felt able perhaps because I'm sure they've been identified to put them in now that Virginia is dead. But you know
[18:29]these are rich and powerful people. They can make life very difficult for for for anyone who calls them out. Um so whether we'll ever really know who these perpetrators were, I just don't know. I
[18:40]hope so because they do deserve to be uh brought to account. >> Did you have to be brave? Did you have to find courage to write your book? >> Well, I'm very fully. Uh I do these
[18:51]books all the time and every time anyone says that they're going to come after me, I just say bring it on. Um so, you know, who knows? uh as as Joan Collins said of a much younger husband, if he
[19:02]dies, he dies. Um I do think it's important that we know that journalists and historians do try and get the truth out about the past. Uh whatever personal
[19:12]cost and there've been huge financial cost to me in the past for doing so. Uh and of course attempts to to undermine my reputation as a as a writer and historian. Um but you know I think in
[19:24]the end people power will will will work enough people if you bring this to people's attention enough of this stuff comes out that can actually uh deal with this sort of sense of entitlement and
[19:35]and and this corruption. >> Yeah. Why did you choose Prince Andrew as your subject? >> Well, it's a third of a trilogy of books on royal marriages. So the one on Lord and Louis Mountbatton was about an open
[19:46]marriage. The second on the Duke of Windsor was about um the great love story of the 20th century. And this is about the happiest divorced couple ever. But of course, using the prism of looking at the marriages, I want to look
[19:57]at wider issues. And all of these people, I suppose I've been revisionist in. They're what I would call rogue royals. Uh who I don't think the full story has been told about. They've been
[20:07]uh there's been a sort of um um well, a lot of the material has disappeared or people haven't wanted to dig deep enough. Uh and I knew with Andrew that there were scandals there. Uh, and I
[20:18]just wanted to see what the extent of those scandals might be and if if the accusations against him, both as a trade envoy and with his links to Epstein, were were accurate. Uh, and of course, I
[20:28]found that in spades. Um, you know, it was far worse than I actually envvisaged. >> You've described it as the greatest royal scandal in living history.
[20:38]>> Well, Daily Mail did uh uh um I can't take credit for that. I've been described as the mortician of the royal family, too. Do you feel that that's what you're
[20:48]doing? That you're killing it? >> Well, I mean, you know, it's I am concerned because I'm a monarchist. I want it to survive, but I want it to survive as an institution that people
[20:57]can respect and not to uh that people feel uncomfortable about that they've actually abused their position. Uh, and it is only really Andrew and Sarah Ferguson. I mean, the rest of them do a
[21:08]terrific job. Uh, so I don't really want a byproduct. I I describe myself as an honest friend. um uh you know calling out some of the things that are wrong in order for them to be corrected in order
[21:20]for the monarchy to survive. Um I don't think the monarchy will fall certainly not because of me. I mean it survived a lot of things over the last thousand years but I do think that if it's to
[21:30]command uh trust and respect it needs to get its act together. Now, >> I understand you're going to uh release a a soft
[21:40]version and uh which will include more information more more material that has come out since. Can you tell us some of what that material might be?
[21:51]>> Yes. Well, I mean, a lot of material was taken out for legal reasons. So, for example, I had a lot of material on Peter Mandlesson, who's a a British um was the British ambassador in Washington
[22:01]and his links with Epstein. Um there's going to be material about Andrew's uh activities in various countries like Libya. Um his links with other um well-known political figures and their
[22:12]and their children. Uh there is more material almost every day I get new material from former school friends of the couple and colleagues, people who've
[22:21]worked with them in charities. Um so there's a lot more detail, a lot more new things, a lot more for example Andrew's activities in Mongolia which I
[22:30]didn't know anything about. um so uh much more on their uh romantic lives. Uh so yes, I mean I've got probably about
[22:39]100 pages of material. Some uh I I don't know 30 40,000 words was taken out already for this hardback. So there's a lot of new material there and the
[22:49]question is how I integrate it into the existing hardback. But yes, next in about 9 or 10 months time there will be an updated version.
[22:59]Do you expect more shocking emails to emerge? >> Yes, I do. I mean, you know, we've only got I think just the the tip of the iceberg of what's available. Um, I mean,
[23:09]the the Epstein files are voluouss. I mean, thousands and thousands of pages, but I think other people will come forward, witnesses. There'll be other sealed depositions which will be
[23:18]unsealed. Um, so this is this is only the beginning of the end for this couple. And do you think that they feel that? Do
[23:28]you think they fear it? >> Well, I think Andrew is still in denial. I think he feels hard done by. He cannot understand, you know, why everyone's picking on him because he feels so
[23:38]entitled. I think Sarah uh probably is a little bit more self-aware. I mean, she's disappeared. Um, she must be frightened because, you know, her whole
[23:48]raising being duchess of of York and being able to to monetize that for her business career. She's very extravagant and lives uh lives in a very luxurious way. So how this is going to be
[23:59]sustained in the future is the big question. Um what's happened in the past is she's gotten involved with more and more um nefarious sorts of figures in order to to to sustain her lifestyle. And I suspect that's what's going to
[24:11]happen now. But it won't matter so much because she's no longer a member of the royal family living in crown property. Do they I mean that that sort of self-d delusion that you describe of Prince Andrew,
[24:22]does that mean he lives without worry that he doesn't he's not worried about what is about to be revealed? What will come next? >> Well, it was interesting when I interviewed a member of his staff and said, you know, how does he feel? His
[24:32]reputation is trashed. I mean, you know, his relations with his daughters must be terrible. He said the only thing he really cares about is he can no longer appear on the balcony at Buckingham Palace. He can no longer get dressed up
[24:43]in his garter robes. can no longer, you know, swan around as the son of the queen. Uh, and that is the problem. He has no sense of his own identity except as a royal. I mean, he describes himself
[24:55]primarily as a prince. Uh, um, and I think that's that the the loss of that the loss of that identity is what's really hit him. There's been no sense of
[25:05]contrition about uh, you know, what happened with these trafficked victims. Um, there's no sense of the shame he's brought on the monarchy, for example. So, uh, it's it's an extraordinary
[25:15]thing, but both of them are narcissists. Everything is about them. We saw this at the Duchess of Kent's funeral, which was, uh, they were actually should have been bit players, but they tried to put themselves center stage. They tried to
[25:26]ham it up in front of the cameras. Um, there was no sense of decorum, um, because they they they don't have it. It's it's all about attention seeking for both of them, which is what
[25:36]actually's driven them all their lives. >> And no sense of how ridiculous. I I like how you coined Prince Andrew the perspiring prince. >> Yes. And she called him an intellectual
[25:48]zombie. Yes. Yes. Well, he does. I mean, he is he is um he is a figure uh with um uh no sense of of of self-awareness. I mean, he's so used to telling lies, he
[26:00]doesn't realize and sometimes he's telling lies. I think this is the part of the problem. Um you know, and no one will speak to him. Anyone who speaks truth to power basically is dismissed.
[26:11]um or finds their careers curtailed. Uh and the palace machinist supported that. You know, admirals who who who who criticized him, you know, or rather naval officers who criticized him found
[26:22]that their careers went nowhere. Ambassadors who who complained found they were posted to terrible hardship postings. Protection officers who complained found they were back on the
[26:31]beat in in South London. Um so it's not, as I say, just the problem of this rogue royal. It's the problem of the system itself which is knowing what he was like
[26:41]pro protected him >> or perhaps he will learn to sweat now. >> Yes, I think he's shown that he can he he he may well be able to sweat.
[26:51]Exactly.