[0:00]right now on law and crime report as protests continue in portland the outcry against federal intervention reaching a fever pitch video showing the mayor of portland
[0:10]being tear gassed alongside protesters plus in the case of elaine maxwell a federal judge says a trove of secret
[0:20]documents under seal must now be made public the documents stem from a 2015 case brought by an alleged victim of jeffrey epstein what's in them we discuss she is a
[0:31]monster she's worse than epstein and later the president's former personal attorney is yet again freed from prison why a federal judge says michael cohen was a victim of retaliation
[0:43]law and crime report diving into true crime and all the legal stories making headlines it's friday july 24 2020 [Music] and thanks so much for joining us today
[0:57]on law and crime report i'm stacey delicat we have a packed show for you today lots to get to i have two wonderful guests joining me this hour and we're going to start in portland oregon where federal law enforcement and
[1:09]protesters have been locked in a tense standoff for days now protests in portland started more than 55 days ago and those protests were over the use of police brutality they were
[1:19]demanding racial justice police accountability but things in portland oregon took a turn around july 4 when president trump sent in federal agents to try to quell some of the
[1:29]unrest there well it all came to a head on wednesday night when portland's mayor ted wheeler was tear gassed himself let's take a look at footage from that night
[1:40][Applause] [Music] [Music]
[2:03]so i want to bring in my two guests to discuss what has been going on in portland these last few days and nights we have judge brandon birmingham with us from dallas texas today as well
[2:14]as long crimes own analyst terry austin trial attorney thank you both so much for being with me this afternoon to discuss these topics uh judge judge birmingham i want to start with
[2:24]you you know the um federal agents here i mean we know they're in their right to come in and protect federal buildings but when we've seen a tear gas rubber bullets being shot into
[2:35]crowds heard reports of people being taken by federal agents into unmarked cars are those agents going too far are they stepping beyond their right
[2:45]there is a extreme public outrage i think from all across the country because of the perception that they are indeed going too far as far as the you know the people that are being
[2:57]you know taken off the streets you know it depends on who the person is and why they're being taken off the street and there has to be transparency in law enforcement there's got to be a good reason why they have used the force that they used on
[3:09]the mayor the other night and if there's not then that is a real problem and right now i think one of the things that this nation is wrestling with is
[3:16]how are we going to deal with the the the interplay between law enforcement and the public and things like this are causing great distrust in our
[3:27]society we know that the justice department's inspector general his counterpart at the department of homeland security now say they're going to review the actions of federal agents after complaints and
[3:38]requests by lawmakers in portland uh terry i want to hear your thoughts on this uh is an investigation first of all warranted and what are sort of the conflicts of interest here when we have
[3:47]federal government now investigating federal agents this is absolutely a positively an opportunity to investigate because there are conflicting interests here
[3:59]although in my opinion there was excessive use of force so what trump is arguing and his administration will be arguing is that they had the right to go in either under the patriot act or the insurrection act
[4:11]and opposing that is the fact that under the insurrection act no one asked for his help and he had said recently that he would wait until his help was asked for and it wasn't and
[4:22]under the patriot act we have a right this isn't terrorism people have a right to demonstrate there is a first amendment right of free speech so going in the way
[4:33]that trump and the administration went in here with this use of force when no one asked for it and when these individuals have a right to protest and using
[4:42]tear gas is absolutely unnecessary and we definitely should be investigating it let's go ahead and look at a little bit more video from these protests from federal agents
[4:53]using force on the protesters [Applause] [Music] [Applause]
[5:02][Music] what are you doing use your words what are you doing
[5:13]use your words what are you doing i haven't done anything wrong use your words what is going on who are you
[5:24][Music] tell us your name what's your name okay you're fine we'll get you out bro we got you friend
[5:32]we got you the fuck nlt you just violated their rights [Music]
[5:43]you just violated their rights thanks for keeping a fucking well certainly those clips are disturbing to see those protesters being taken away or we saw the first protester being
[5:54]hit with what appeared to be a baton it wasn't clear what he was doing to warrant that although these are selective clips they're not telling us the whole story but based on what we're seeing here judge birmingham what is your reaction to those scenes
[6:06]well as far as the arrest goes i sure hope that they have a good reason why they're arresting him because it appears as though he wasn't doing anything wrong maybe they know exactly who he is and and there better be a good lawful reason
[6:17]for his arrest uh you know the the shot of the the young man who is in the navy he is a veteran from our navy and you know i i would suggest to you that whenever an
[6:29]officer is using force that there has to be a reason for him to use force and if you look at that video maybe there was something that happened before but at the instant time that the force was being used
[6:39]i don't really see what was the reason that the force was being used terry do you agree i mean certainly you know i think most observers would be pretty disturbed
[6:49]by that video is is it is it proof that the federal agents are you know out of their rights they're going too far well i absolutely agree and here's the issue
[7:01]these agents haven't been identified are they the military are they national guard which is what you would send under the insurrection act or are they homeland security agents which is what
[7:12]you would send if it were under the patriot act so these individuals have a right to know who is perpetrating the arrest and where it is they are being taken
[7:23]and why they are being taken away it is very frightening when these unmarked cars come up and it's very difficult to identify who the arresting officers are
[7:34]yeah i mean absolutely there are a lot of questions you know the there it's suspicious almost like a movie right i mean and it looks like a war zone when we look at that footage but to see these uniformed
[7:44]agents with the gas mask with their weapons up taking people away uh it's certainly very disturbing and and really seems like a scene out of a movie another development uh in the last 24 hours is that a
[7:55]federal judge specifically blocked u.s agents from arresting or using force uh physical force against journalists and legal observers who are watching these protests happen
[8:06]that is a good first step forward i suppose but is that enough judge birmingham well i just hope that and throughout the life of these cases after you know at some point in the in the
[8:17]future the man who was arrested is going to have his day in court and what i'm very hopeful for is that those days in court are made public that the public has access to those court proceedings so we can see exactly why
[8:28]we talked a little bit before about oversight and accountability there has to be oversight and accountability in all of these cases so that the public's trust if it has been eroded may be able to be
[8:38]restored at this point terry you know can the public's trust be restored when things have reached this level of almost chaos there i mean
[8:48]it's going to take a while i would think well i think it can be restored but i think the more important issue here is this is a democracy and the way that
[8:58]the administration is sending troops in without being asked and using this excessive force it's almost like it is anarchy and he is trying to be a dictator
[9:09]and controlling the public so i think we can get the public trust to judge birmingham's point i think if we see what happened to the people who are arrested and they are you know
[9:20]making sure that they are safe and that they get out and that their rights aren't being violated their constitutional rights i think if we see that then the public you know trust
[9:29]can then be restored the state of oregon has sought an order limiting the federal agents arrest powers during the demonstrations beyond just uh being able to arrest journalists or legal observers
[9:41]the protest general judge birmingham you know how do you see that playing out do you see a judge um granting that order well i i would think that the only reason why somebody can be arrested is
[9:53]if there is a lawful warrant that's signed by a judge or because a felony was was being committed within their presence and that's the test and if there wasn't then the person should not be arrested that goes whether you're in portland or
[10:04]whether you're in dallas whether you're protesting or not you've got to be able to have a valid lawful reason for each and every arrest and if you don't then you have some real
[10:15]problems well certainly this is something we're going to be keeping an eye on because it does not appear that those protests are going to be dissipating anytime soon uh we're going to take a quick break though when we come back lots more
[10:26]to talk about today including a trove of secret documents in the jalane maxwell case relating to jeffrey epstein yesterday a judge ruled that those documents can be made public so when will we see them
[10:38]what did they say we're going to talk about it right after the break welcome back jelane maxwell she is
[10:53]jeffrey epstein's lover and alleged co-conspirator in the big case against him sexual abuse case involving minors and a number of young women well she's been behind bars in a
[11:05]federal prison for her role in allegedly recruiting young women for jeffrey epstein since july 2nd well now a judge has ruled that a set of
[11:16]documents apparently a trove of top secret documents relating to a civil case filed against maxwell in 2015 by one of epstein's accusers
[11:26]virginia jeffrey can be released and made public the court found that any minor embarrassment or annoyance resulting from the disclosure of jelane maxwell's non-testimony during
[11:37]that civil case uh the public has a right to know the judge ruled it's more important for the public to know than to protect what is in those documents now again this relates to a civil case stemming from
[11:48]2015 a civil case in which virginia jewfrey one of jeffrey epstein's most vocal alleged victims came forward suing jillaine maxwell for defamation because jillian
[11:58]maxwell called jewfrey a liar just to give you a little refresher on some of jufre's allegations let's listen to a bit of an interview she did and i asked her and i said why are you
[12:12]having all these girls come in and sleep with your boyfriend and um she was like so i don't have to do it all the time you know so she made like a joke out of it
[12:22]why do you think she did it she did it to keep jeffrey happy for sure she did it because she loves the control
[12:33]over people jeffrey was a sick pedophile um but she was the mastermind so that was virginia jeffrey in a
[12:43]previous interview now this extensive collection of what's being called extremely personal documents relating to the civil case that you free filed against maxwell had been under seal but there had been
[12:55]uh requests to unseal these documents in light of the new charges against jelaine maxwell and as i said yesterday the judge ruled that the documents could be unsealed but not so fast we
[13:04]won't be seeing what's in them just yet that is because maxwell's attorneys asked for the court to put a stay on the release of those documents until they could appeal her decision the judge gave them a week
[13:16]to appeal uh this decision to unseal the documents so once again i have my two wonderful guests joining me this afternoon terry austin long prime analyst and trial attorney and
[13:26]judge brandon birmingham out of dallas texas today so terry let me uh start with you were you surprised at all by this ruling that the judge said these documents can be made public
[13:38]well i do think it was a reasonable response what she's weighing is the probative versus the prejudicial value of having these documents come into trial and the documents have something to do
[13:49]with the allegations so i think it was probably the right decision the one thing the judge did say however is that if there is personally identifiable information as it relates to
[14:00]anyone frankly but as it relates to the defendant maxwell and also she said that the names of the jane does cannot be revealed but other than that she said that these documents can come
[14:11]into the case yeah absolutely that's a good point we know when and if the documents do end up being unsealed there will be a lot of redaction so a lot of people saw this headline and thought wow will
[14:22]there be names in here will we know who else was perhaps tied to jeffrey epstein's alleged the sex rings he's been he's been alleged to run we will we see some more high profile names perhaps of other men that were involved
[14:33]unclear because there will be redactions but judge birmingham let me ask you um the judge loretta prescott a federal judge said the court finds the countervailing interest identified failed to rebut the presumption of public access and
[14:45]accordingly those papers shall be unsealed if you're the judge in that case do you agree do you make the same move well i do want to just underlie the the connection between what we're talking about now what we were just talking
[14:56]about about transparency in the process there is a presumption that what happens in a court should be public and the only reason to keep something not from being public is because it might interfere with an investigation or there's
[15:08]one of the other factors there so the presumption is everything should be public i really do think it's a good idea in our court system that things be as transparent and as accessible as possible for the same
[15:20]reason we should have cameras in the courtroom filming these trials all the way to releasing information that won't affect anybody's rights in a particular case i do support and think it's a good idea to have
[15:30]these types of records released and accessible to the public no surprise here that maxwell's attorneys are appealing this decision they have asked for two weeks to file their appeal
[15:41]given the new criminal case but judge prescott said they could have one week to file the appeal motion in the meantime she asked attorneys to get the documents ready for release either way hard to predict how an appeals court could rule but terry what
[15:53]is your sense could is it possible that the appeals judge will say you know hold on let's keep these documents secret it's possible but i don't think it's probable i think that the
[16:03]documents will ultimately be certainly released as far as the court proceedings are concerned and ultimately i think really as far as the public is concerned
[16:12]i think like the judge said there is a great argument for transparency here and again you know this is a democracy and making sure that there is a trial it's a fair trial
[16:24]that is impartial that it's subject to the public viewing i think all of that makes complete sense so i don't think that the decision is going to be reversed in
[16:34]any way and this is such a high profile case now i mean you have jeffrey epstein you have julian maxwell two super powerful wealthy people we know that um you know obviously all
[16:46]everything about jeffrey epstein who's suicide huge headlines big story and then we had the release of this netflix series right about the case which everyone was talking about this is something that is so much i think in the public
[16:57]dialogue you know splashed across the pages of tabloids even i mean how much do you think the public interest in general in this case perhaps drummed up by the netflix series drummed up by
[17:08]what's uh you know posted magazine articles tabloids so forth um sort of influences the judge's decision obviously the judge is not supposed to be influenced by that but the fact that there is so much interest perhaps
[17:19]because of the way this story has been portrayed does that play a part in this at all judge well when you're trying to make decisions in high profile cases like this
[17:29]you have to be aware and cognizant of how anything any publicity might impact the rights of the people who were involved directly in the case and if you can do that then you're doing
[17:40]a very good thing and the law will not tolerate a judge being influenced by public opinion the court of public opinion and things like that you can't do that you got to be mindful of it you can't ignore it you will have to confront it
[17:52]like for example during jury selection a lot of the jurors may have formed opinions so you have to be a cognizant of it so that you can make sure that all of the rights of the people involved no matter what they're charged with
[18:04]are adhered to and they are given their full due process absolutely well uh some other big another big headline related to the epstein-maxwell story this week actually
[18:15]coming out of the white house when during a press conference president trump was asked what he thought about maxwell's arrest and the federal charges she is now facing
[18:25]let's take a listen his response criticize bill clinton's behavior i'm wondering do you feel that she's going to turn in powerful men how do you see that working out i don't
[18:36]know i haven't really been following it too much i just wish her well frankly i've met her numerous times over the years especially since i lived in palm beach and i guess they lived in palm beach uh but
[18:47]i wish her well whatever it is uh i don't know the situation with prince andrew just don't know not aware of sis lane maxwell is in prison and so a lot of people want to know if she's going to turn in powerful
[18:59]people and i know you've talked in the past about prince andrew and you've criticized bill clinton's behavior i'm wondering do you feel that she's going to turn in powerful men how do you see that working out
[19:10]i don't know i haven't really been following it too much i just wish her well frankly i've met her numerous times over the years especially since i lived in palm beach and i guess they lived in palm beach but i
[19:21]wish her well whatever it is uh i don't know the situation with prince andrew just don't know not aware of it not a great look there uh the president said he wishes her well twice uh terry
[19:33]when you heard this what was your reaction obviously it sparked immense chatter on social media in general on the cable shows president trump saying he wishes julian maxwell
[19:43]well listen his credibility is always at issue here and wishing her well was definitely not a good look this is someone who's been
[19:54]arrested for heinous crimes against underage girls so to say i wish her well obviously every defendant has a right to be you know innocent until proven guilty
[20:06]but to say i wish her well i think wasn't the right response he should have been ready for that question and frankly to say that he isn't familiar with the situation
[20:16]it leads me to believe that he's not either telling the truth or that he just doesn't want to comment and that's his standard statement so everyone knows about these cases for him to not be
[20:28]aware of it just doesn't seem credible to me yeah i mean of course everyone is innocent until proven guilty but i think a lot of people felt that that was not the right way to go
[20:38]on the statement judge you care to respond well i think we're going to see how wise or unwise those statements uh were when we see and uncover in a
[20:50]court of law exactly what she has been proven to have done and once we know that well then we'll be able to that'll speak volumes about whether the president should or should not have said
[21:01]the things that he said in the press conference well everyone is going to be watching closely in terms of what happens with these documents i think and what is contained in the documents again the judge
[21:12]basically giving maxwell's team a week to file an appeal but asked lawyers to still prepare the documents to be released so it is possible uh if the appeal court uh does rule to
[21:22]go ahead and let those documents be released that we could be seeing them in the coming weeks lots of interest for sure we're going to take another quick break much more to go here on the long crime report today stay with us welcome back to law and crime report we
[21:40]turn now to michael cohen president trump's former personal attorney michael cohen was sentenced to three years behind bars after pleading guilty to charges of campaign finance violation
[21:52]among other charges he was surfing out his sentence in otisville new york when in may he was released on furlough because of coronavirus fears well on july 9th
[22:01]he was sent back to prison it was allegedly because he had been working on a book a tell-all book about president trump and
[22:10]michael cohen sued asking to be released well a judge ordered that his jailing was completely retaliatory in fact i want to read you
[22:21]what the judge said he said in his 21 years of being a judge and sentencing people and looking at terms and conditions of supervised release he has never seen such a clause that's judge alvin alvin
[22:33]hellerstein referring to a clause that cohen be allowed to remain at home but sign a document that would barred him from publishing a book during the rest of his sentence judge
[22:44]brandon birmingham joining us from dallas texas let me start with you here i mean do you agree have you heard of a clause like this allowing someone to be released from prison on furlough but saying a condition is but you can't work on any
[22:56]kind of book that has to do with the president or anything else for that matter while you're out it's it is a peculiar type of condition to be sure but it's also somewhat related
[23:08]to the sentence as well and that's really the test is is there a condition of of release that is related somehow to the case that would
[23:16]keep the public safety uh at top of mind and or not allow somebody i mean let's let's just take it like this the man was put into prison
[23:27]okay that is a punishment and there's a feeling i think in this country right now that there are the haves and the have-nots in our criminal justice system and there's a lot of people who are very critical of
[23:38]release in the very first place of of him because it's perceived that he is released because of his ties to the president for no other reason that the law applies differently to those that are connected
[23:50]and i think that is really a major problem that we need to tackle in this country you know it's interesting because i think that that may be a perception for some
[23:59]but others would argue president trump you know does not want to protect michael cohen anymore michael cohen turned on his former boss majorly and is now working on this book disloyal the
[24:10]tell-all about you know what he says is president trump acting like a racist and an anti-semite behind closed door so uh while yes he's certainly connected uh certainly represents that other half i
[24:22]don't know you know whether his connections to president trump actually helped him be furloughed i mean what do you think terry well look i think these concepts of
[24:32]making sure the law is equally applied and the concept of making sure people have a first amendment right to say whatever they want i believe can not you know those two concepts can can
[24:43]be stated together and work together so for instance you know michael cohen if he gets out okay but other people should be able to get out of jail too because of covet 19
[24:55]and not just because they are high profile or because they have money but because they might be sick and so that rule should apply to everyone equally i do agree
[25:05]with the judge's ruling here though that from a first amendment perspective if you are going to say he has to stay in jail unless he doesn't publish a book i i
[25:17]don't think that's the reason that he should stay in jail because like everyone else they're all in jail or he should stay in dale because he's a flight risk or he should stay in jail because he's going to commit another crime
[25:27]i don't believe the reason that was purported here the fact that he can't publish that's not a reason to keep him in jail so i think it was the right decision but i agree with judge birmingham these
[25:38]decisions have to be evenly applied to all defendants yeah i mean the judge in this case judge hellerstein says that the reason he was sent back to jail to begin with
[25:49]was retaliation by the federal government because perhaps the government was quite angry you know the government president trump his administration that he was working on this tell-all book obviously if that
[26:00]was the case that would be retaliation but do you think that there could have been orders from that high up judge birmingham saying let's bring him back we got to put him back in prison well i certainly hope not i mean i
[26:12]really do i really choose to believe that we live in a country that is not so crooked basically and not so top-heavy but you know if if there is those orders that were handed down well then
[26:22]we need to deal with that and that's one of the reasons why people are protesting now i think that's one of the reasons why we have such unrest is there's such dissatisfaction with the courts there's such a belief whether it's
[26:34]political connection or whether it's because of access to resources that people are treated differently and that's the problem should he be in jail or should he not that decision was made based on the crime that he was convicted of
[26:46]and the appropriate sentencing at the time of the sentencing that's really what you need to be focused on and you're determining what a sentence should be things come in afterwards that uh of impact that that are
[26:57]that are crooked or unlawful then that shouldn't happen yeah i mean i i agree with you completely well mr cohen now um will be released again and i believe later
[27:09]this afternoon he'll be fitted with an ankle braces he will be on home detention to serve out the rest of his sentence and we'll see what happens with the publication
[27:18]of that book supposedly supposed to come out two months before the november election stay tuned on that one well let's switch gears and talk about george floyd's murders
[27:28]the george george floyd's murder rather the police officer behind bars charged with killing floyd is now being accused of tax fraud
[27:38]of tax evasion derrick chauvin and his wife apparently did not file their state tax returns for three years and also failed to properly report
[27:48]their income for a number of years so now they are facing additional charges completely unrelated to those charges uh murder charges involving george floyd but nonetheless
[28:00]other charges that are not a great look here terry what did you make of this when you saw this headline and and heard that this couple was now being accused of tax evasion well the first thing i thought
[28:11]is when it rains it pours i guess they went in they saw his computer they realized that you know it wasn't just the fact that this man is a police officer and you know murdered somebody that in addition
[28:23]to that and obviously i'm not making light of it that is the most serious charge that you could possibly have against you but now he has these other charges which are quite serious as well nine counts i think they're five years
[28:34]of peace in terms of penalty that's a lot of years 45 years and if in fact he's convicted of that as well he has a lot of problems down the line so i think that
[28:46]it's interesting they went in they found this and they brought it you know it looks like they are going to bring these they have brought these charges against him and he's got a lot to deal with right now
[28:56]yeah i mean no no question about it as you said when it rains it pours totally unrelated charges but serious charges nonetheless although not nearly on the level of those charges involving judge floyd
[29:06]one thing i thought was interesting was that uh derek chovan and his wife were actually recorded on a prison phone call talking about these charges his wife making reference to people
[29:17]digging into their tax information uh you know they have to know those calls are being recorded and judge birmingham and was was that a mistake for them to discuss this on a phone call
[29:27]from uh chovin's prison jail well if it was a mistake it's a mistake that is made so frequently i i can't even tell you the number of times that people make
[29:37]statements like that on recorded jail calls they're told at the beginning that their calls are being recorded and those types of phone calls come into trials that i've presided over and i used to
[29:48]prosecute when i was a prosecutor almost every single time that there was a trial there was some statement that's made is it a mistake well it certainly doesn't help his defense in the tax
[29:58]evasion case i'll tell you that do you think i mean granted completely different charges here not nearly on the same level but uh you know when it comes to the criminal case
[30:08]involving the charges the murder charges involving george floyd i mean does this do these now tax evasion charges play any role whatsoever could they be brought into that case or are we just
[30:18]totally talking apples and oranges judge it sounds like apples and oranges tax evasion is one thing i don't i don't know that there's a connection between tax evasion and
[30:28]the the conduct that we saw for those horrific 8 minutes and 46 seconds on the street minneapolis where it may come into play though is in assessing punishment
[30:38]and in in texas for example in a lot of jurisdictions like texas minnesota might be one of them you know a person's life is admissible essentially in the punishment phase of a case
[30:48]so that jurors can use anything relevant and certainly in addition to the crime that he's been convicted of any other felonies that that he's been accused of or has committed or that the
[30:59]state can prove he's committed is going to weigh in on the appropriate sentencing sentence terry uh a quick question before we go i mean this certainly
[31:09]leads to the appearance that he thinks that he's just above the law whether it's filing taxes or arresting a man and putting his knee on his neck do you agree i absolutely agree it definitely shows
[31:20]his character safety the thing is when you saw him with his knee on george floyd's neck he looked as though he could care less he could do anything he wanted he totally ignored
[31:31]what the other police officers were saying and now you see he didn't even bother to file taxes knowing that there's an obligation in the state to do that so he does act as though
[31:41]he is above the law it shows what his character is really about yeah well another case we are going to be following closely in the coming weeks and months we're going to take another quick break when we come back
[31:52]new developments in the brianna taylor case and we'll talk about a man who spent 20 years behind bars for a murder he says he did not commit he walked free we'll show you the
[32:02]footage stay with us welcome back now to the case of brianna taylor tragically murdered in her
[32:14]own home by police cnn is out with a new analysis in which they say there were a series of missteps by police officers
[32:22]that led up to this wrongful death this case obviously has generated attention and calls for justice from around the country really
[32:33]around the world cnn's review found that there was a key miscalculation by police they assumed briana taylor was home alone but actually her boyfriend was there and he was legally armed they also
[32:44]say uh there were just some bad decisions made on the night of her death i mean not entirely surprising a woman promising with a promising future emt
[32:54]wound up dead who was not supposed to even you know have been involved in this let me start with you terry what are your feelings on the findings of this new cnn analysis
[33:05]well you know cnn took a look at the affidavits they took a look at all of the interviews and based on the information they found that there were some
[33:14]pieces of information that the police were using that weren't accurate to your point you said that they thought she was there alone they also thought that her house was being used to deal
[33:25]drugs they also thought that she was still with her ex-boyfriend glover who actually was arrested that evening so here they go into this house ramming into the door
[33:36]thinking that it's a you know drug house and it was not so the premises of going there the underlying thoughts that the police had were all wrong
[33:46]and they charged this house as though you know there were weapons and guns and drugs and in fact it was as you say brianna taylor who was an emt and her new boyfriend is there
[33:58]they're asleep and they're in their home they have a right to defend themselves so it was a horrible situation uh before i bring judge birmingham in on this let's listen to a clip from a police interview sergeant
[34:09]jonathan mattingly of the louisville metro police at that point lieutenant hoover said go ahead and hit it so i looked at mike said go ahead
[34:20]so he hits the first time and it hits right on the door handle and didn't didn't move the door and every time he hits people are announcing please search warrant please search one second time he hits he hits the good
[34:31]spot and it almost knocks the door open you can see i can see the deadbolt uh at an angle and i could see a crack in the door into the leading into the apartment
[34:41]so i said uh this one's gonna go so he hit the third time and as soon as he hit the door came open the young police search warrant please search warrant i go to around the corner i can see i
[34:52]clear the living room on the right hand side where you can see the the sliding glass door as i turn the corner as soon as i cleared the threshold of
[35:03]the of the front door i could see down the hallway my mind went just your mind works so quick in this situation it's unreal um because as soon as i cleared it i'm face on about
[35:15]probably 20 feet away right down the hallway there's a bedroom door on the right and there's a the male and a female the male's closest to the door so it's to my right
[35:26]and as i turn the doorway he's in a stretched out position with his hands with a gun and as soon as i clear he fires boom and uh it was almost like at the
[35:37]shooting range where two two things flip at the same time and you gotta shoot no shoot but i mean they were like shoulder shoulder my mind's going this ain't right you know something's off here because all the doors i've made entry and i've never seen this
[35:48]and so i hit this corner and it goes boom and as soon as the as soon as the shot hit i could feel the heat in my leg and so i just returned fire i got four rounds off
[36:00]um and it was like simultaneously boom boom boom boom boom and then i went back and went down on the side of the door and then reached around and i think i got two more off around the corner of the door and then i
[36:12]could really feel the blood in my legs so i reached out and felt it my hand was full blood and i knew it hit my femoral at that point again that was louisville police sergeant jonathan mattingly
[36:22]he is the sergeant who led that late night raid in march which resulted in briana taylor being shot to death he is giving his account of the series of events that led up to
[36:32]the shooting that night and how he felt this is an interview done after that shooting months ago and now of course uh we are learning more and more about what happened the events that led up
[36:44]to her killing again a new cnn analysis uh finding there were major missteps by police failing to coordinate on all different levels here um judge mattingly how
[36:55]um do we sort of compare what we hear from the uh sergeant in that interview to you know what sort of um we're finding out after the fact right when we do
[37:06]investigations i mean in hindsight what we are learning about what happened that night what's going to be critical is at each point at each decision that was made what was the information available to
[37:17]the officers and then what information could have or should have been available to the officers if they had done things properly and this review of their work is
[37:28]something that i think we need to do and whenever you have a situation like the brianna taylor case there has to be an independent review to see who knew what and when some of these officers might
[37:39]have gone in because they received the information from other officers ahead of them uh and if that there were miscalculations in there then why was there miscalculations how bad was it
[37:49]and why why why what can we do to make sure those miscalculations don't ever happen again absolutely and judge let me apologize i called you judge mattingly obviously i was
[38:00]referring to sergeant mattingly whose uh interview we just heard judge birmingham well i want to switch topics to one other story that made headlines yesterday and that is involving a man
[38:11]who spent 20 years behind bars for a murder that he says he did not commit i'm talking about a man out of camden county georgia
[38:22]dennis perry he was arrested in 2000 he was later convicted of murders that happened back in 1985 the murderers of harold and thelma swain they were shot inside their church
[38:33]and she and perry was arrested and charged in their murders some 15 years later there were elements of racism involved in this case dennis perry is white the couple is black
[38:45]well his convictions were overturned last week because of new evidence that linked a former suspect to the crime scene perry maintained his innocence all along he finally
[38:55]walked out of that camden county jail yesterday after a judge ruled his original conviction could be overturned let's take a look at that scene i uh told my wife i can bring myself out
[39:10]of here and that's what i've done because i asked god for some help
[39:18]and he sent me 12 disciples 12 people from your law firm it means the world to me because i've made a mini a trip to this
[39:29]same parking lot to have to walk away and lead him in there but today i don't have to walk away without him so it's the world it's the world's leader
[39:40]the georgia innocence project involved in this case and getting dennis perry's conviction overturned now we've seen a lot of cases like this where really there's been no physical evidence linking a defendant to the crime
[39:52]uh yet the defendant is put away on the charges in this case dennis perry apparently agreed to not appeal to avoid the death penalty this new
[40:03]evidence became apparent however after news reports and investigations found that another suspect who had originally been considered at the scene actually was a positive match for dna dna found on a pair of
[40:14]eyeglasses found near the bodies now that dna had been tested back then technology is certainly not what it is today but the dna was not a match for dennis perry um
[40:24]terry many cases like this where we see you know the facts just didn't match up yet a suspect uh is convicted and sent to jail yes and it's
[40:35]so tragic and that's why it's really great that we have these organizations like the innocence project that take on these cases that no one else can take on and that they push to get these
[40:46]individuals out of jail and this family the dennis perry family and his wife they seem like such humble people and obviously they're praying that something happens and
[40:57]it did finally happen and i'm grateful that it did happen you know we should have more cases where the dna shows that it wasn't this individual and it was someone else so hopefully
[41:09]there will be you know justice here they'll go after the right individual and hopefully dennis perry and his family won't have to deal with this anymore in the future yeah i mean dennis
[41:20]perry now free but it's not over for him or his family yet because prosecutors in camden county have not agreed to completely drop the charges against him i mean there's still a chance that they may
[41:30]go ahead with a new trial i mean judge birmingham what do you think are the chances that now there's this strong evidence linking another suspect but the prosecutors in this case were really reluctant to pull back on their initial
[41:42]claims leading up to his release how do you see this playing out it's it's not over for mr perry well it's it's technically not over for mr perry i think this case
[41:52]illustrates so uh so well why we need to never stop investigating and seeking the truth and justice in a particular case and the dna evidence certainly implicates somebody who was not the
[42:04]person convicted he's out now it's going through the process they're investigating the person to whom that dna does actually belong and that's a that's a very good thing all of that happened though after he
[42:15]entered a plea of guilty and there was a lot of fighting going on because he entered a plea of guilty that you shouldn't even test the evidence that might undo that plea or might cast doubt on that plea and i think what we need to do is make
[42:25]sure that we never stop seeking the truth in these cases i mean terry you know without knowing too much about the prosecutor's office there as i said obviously they were reluctant
[42:36]to backpedal at all on their you know initial charges they at least projected that they were confident they had the right man i mean do you think that at this point they will say all right you're free it's over we're
[42:46]not going to charge you again well i certainly hope so i think that if in fact he was wrongfully imprisoned which it does appear because there was
[42:56]no dna of his at the scene i think that you know for the prosecution to try to stand their ground and to save face and still say that there's
[43:06]some reason here to go after dennis perry is i i think not fair and hopefully you know to judge birmingham's point the
[43:15]information will be pursued justice will be pursued and the right person will be convicted for this horrible time i mean we're 35 years out from this crime
[43:26]it's certainly not unheard of to see trials this much later but how difficult is it to prove someone committed a murder when we're 35 years out from the date of the crime judge well i've tried
[43:37]my oldest one that i did when i was on the cold case unit was from 1981 which at the time was about 35 years and yeah memories fade documentation becomes absolutely vital and critical
[43:48]locating witnesses is difficult however you know the strength of your case before you ever have to go in front of of a jury or else you don't go in front of the jury so yes it presents
[43:59]unique challenges however it does sound like they do have biological evidence that certainly is a good indicator against at least one person that will definitely be presented and probably be the cornerstone of that case
[44:10]well certainly we wish mr perry and his family well and we do hope that they find uh the person who is truly responsible for the murder of this couple well thank you all so much for joining
[44:20]us today online crime report thank you to terry austin law and crime analyst and trial attorney and to judge brandon birmingham be sure to stick with us our regular programming will continue and we'll be
[44:31]back on monday with the law and crime report have a great weekend and thanks for watching