[0:00]The key to the war in Iran, turns out it's the war in Lebanon. And the US is now waiting diplomatically into that conflict. Meanwhile, the straight of
[0:08]Hormuz still closed. Oil prices higher. Is there a rift between the Vatican and the Pentagon? And what happened when the
[0:19]two sides met in January? And lastly, what does all of this have to do with French popes from the 1300s? Avatar, a movie franchise, yes, but it
[0:29]is also the code name of an Artemis 2 experiment that could enlarge, I mean really enlarge, our understanding of
[0:37]deep space effects on the human body. Hello everyone, I'm Major Garrett in
[0:50]Washington. Welcome to the Takeout. The road to peace with Iran, it appears, now runs through Lebanon. This is new. Just yesterday, Vice President JD Vance, who
[1:00]by the way will lead US negotiators in talks with Iranian officials tomorrow in Islamabad, Pakistan, said yesterday, just yesterday that Lebanon had nothing to do with Iran and the ceasefire
[1:11]reached with the Trump administration. Today, different machinations and different statements. President Trump, for one, said he urged Israel to scale back military bombardment of targets in
[1:22]Lebanon. The Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu directed his government to engage in talks with Lebanese leaders about a ceasefire. And very late today, the State Department
[1:33]said it would lead efforts to forge a ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon. Quick reminder, Hezbollah, an Iranian financed and supplied terrorist proxy in
[1:44]southern Lebanon, has since the war with Iran began a target of increasingly aggressive Israeli air and ground operations. In those operations, Hezbollah leaders
[1:55]and fighters have been killed and some of their weapon stockpiles destroyed. But also, many civilians have died in what was until very recently a somewhat
[2:05]overlooked part of this conflict. Iran said the ceasefire would fall apart if Israel did not stop attacking Lebanon. White House init least initially said
[2:16]Lebanon wasn't even part of the ceasefire, though, and this is important. Many diplomats in the Middle East, including very importantly the prime minister of Pakistan, thought that
[2:25]it was. Achieving that ceasefire is now clearly part of this very complex mix of negotiations. While the world waits for those to play
[2:35]out, the Straight of Hormuz remains closed. According to CBS News analysis of vessel movements through the street, 70 vessels of all kinds, tankers, cargo carriers, transited the Straight of
[2:47]Hormuz the day the war began. Remember that number 70. By comparison, in the last five days, only 40 vessels, 40 over
[2:56]five days have transited the straight. And that is why oil prices today traded back up, nearing $100 per barrel. That's
[3:05]a signal that anxiety persists. And it's a guarantor of a longer run of high gas prices here. In case you're keeping track at home, the national average
[3:15]price of a gallon of regular gas rose to $416 today. It was $347 a month ago. We turn now to Ed O'Keefe
[3:25]at the White House. Ed, a lot going on and a lot at stake for the vice president and this administration as it tries to now figure out what's going on with Israel and
[3:37]Lebanon in addition to what's going on with it and the Iranians. >> That's right. This will be the biggest diplomatic project of the vice president's
[3:48]modestly lengthy political career and frankly not not that long compared to many that he works with. Uh but he is still scheduled to head as our understanding to Pakistan uh likely
[3:59]tomorrow ahead of these talks scheduled for Saturday. He'll be joined by Steve Whit and Jared Kushner. Uh the we have not seen the president today. We haven't heard from him outside of a handful of
[4:09]modest interviews where he uh essentially reiterated uh as he did on social media that US military assets will remain in the region unless or until there is an agreement with Iran
[4:20]which he anticipates and if not then quote the shooting starts again in a bigger way than it did before. Um you know and as you said so much of this
[4:31]today has been focused on what Israel uh and Lebanon may sort out here. The Israeli prime minister authorizing direct talks with Lebanese officials here in Washington next week. CBS News
[4:42]has confirmed that came however after the Lebanese health ministry said at least 300 people were killed in those attacks on Lebanon yesterday that are
[4:51]designed to fortify northern Israel and security concerns Israel has along the Israeli Lebanon border. But the fact that he's now authorizing these talks signals that the prime minister has gotten the message from the
[5:02]administration here in Washington. You've got to at least appear to be talking to Lebanon so that we can begin talking to Iran. >> The first lady not too long ago today,
[5:12]Ed, did something that was unexpected. She talked about Jeffrey Epstein and herself. And I want to play for the audience what she said and then I want to have you let me let me know what you know about it on the other side.
[5:23]>> The individuals lying about me are devoid of ethical standards, humility, and respect.
[5:34]I do not object to their ignorance, but rather I reject their mean-spirited attempts to defame my reputation.
[5:45]>> Now, Ed, I missed many things in a given news day, but I don't recall and I don't remember seeing a lot of chatter about the first lady and Jeffrey Epstein. >> No, Major. In fact, we got word of this
[5:56]last night that she was planning on saying something today. Initially around here, it was thought that this had to do with her ongoing push to reunite Ukrainian children with their families after they'd been kidnapped from Russia.
[6:06]But then indications came to the CBS News pool producers who were shooting this event on behalf of all the television networks that this was going to get a little more personal perhaps than previous public statements she'd
[6:17]made on that issue of missing Ukrainian orphans. That got everyone's attention because when they said it could be a personal matter, you know, the thought was, does this have something to do with
[6:27]her health? Does it have something to do with the president? Uh, is it some other project she's taking on? We weren't sure. She comes out and just immediately launches into this denunciation of
[6:39]rumors about any associations with Jeffrey Epstein. And everyone, where where on earth did this come from? There doesn't appear so far, at least to have been any kind of report coming or book
[6:49]in the works or some other documentary that would try to connect dots. There appears to be only just one email between Melania Trump and Galain Maxwell several years ago in the Epstein files
[7:00]that signals in its wording at least a chubbiness there, a familiarity with each other. But as she explained today, look, if you're in social circles in New York and Palm Beach and you're Donald and Melania Trump, you're going to run
[7:11]into Jeffrey Epstein and Gain Maxwell back in the early 2000s and late 1990s as they did. But she said any suggestion that I had anything to do with his child uh with his sex trafficking reign or any
[7:23]of the other allegations that I had a relationship with Epste are false. And this was the kicker to me, Major. She called on the Republican controlled Congress to keep this issue up, to keep going, to hold hearings on Epstein and
[7:35]allow the victims to speak out. Well, who's been asking for that? But the victims, Democrats and a handful of Republicans who are already in trouble with this White House on other matters and in trouble because they keep
[7:46]bringing up the Epstein affair. Now they've got one of the biggest advocates of all, the first lady, and it's causing headaches in the West. We're still accounting for >> Ed O'Keefe. Great stuff as always. North
[7:56]of the White House. Thank you. >> Arkansas Republican Congressman Rick Crawford joins me now. He is the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. Mr. Chairman, always good to
[8:05]see you. We'll get to Iran and Lebanon in a second, but I wanted to ask you about something our CBS investigative unit has put together. It has talked to US soldiers who survived an Iranian
[8:17]drone strike that killed six American service members the first day of the war. And they've come forward to us to dispute the Pentagon's assertion that they were adequately protected. They say
[8:28]they were ordered to move to a command post in Kuwait despite intelligence that they told us showed it was a potential drone target and that it didn't have any drone defenses. Here is part of what
[8:39]they told us. Please play that. >> What fortifications existed there? >> I mean, I would put it in the none category from the from a drone defense capability.
[8:50]>> None. There were no fortifications. >> None. But what you're describing could be very painful for a lot of the families of the fallen heroes, for a lot of the families of the injured. >> I'm very sad for their loss, and it's
[9:01]something I'll carry with me for the rest of my life. >> Uh, Mr. Chairman, do you think this is something Congress should look into? >> Well, if that's true, then absolutely. I
[9:12]don't know that that's true. I haven't been briefed on it, so this is the first time I'm hearing about it. Um, I would say that it's it's if you're engaged with an adversary like Iran, pretty much any target is potentially a drone
[9:24]target. Um, so I would I would, you know, obviously have to reserve comment without knowing uh the extent of these claims. This is, as I said, I'm learning
[9:34]this now for the very first time. So if that's true, then certainly um it it bears congressional inquiry. >> And it's not so much that bad things
[9:44]cannot happen against an adversary. Quite obviously, Mr. chairman, they can I think what they're telling us is that there's an assertion by the Pentagon that they were protected when they did
[9:54]not feel like they were protected and and were sent to a place that was possibly even less protected. Would that if true concern you and how much? >> If true, certainly that would be a
[10:05]concern for anyone. But again, I think this is something that um without knowing all the facts, this being heard by me by for the first time as you're playing those clips, I you know, I would
[10:17]have some questions about how we're measuring levels of protection. I mean, you know, if if you lost your life in a drone strike, there's no level of protection that was adequate because you
[10:27]lost your life in a drone strike. So, I'm not sure that it's necessarily a fair characterization of what uh constitutes adequate preparation and and
[10:35]and protection. And it could also be uh it it if it is true, then we certainly need to um you know, take all the appropriate actions to make sure that
[10:45]doesn't happen again. But like I said, not knowing the full um scope of this, I would have to reserve comment until I know a little bit more. And at this point, this has not been briefed to me.
[10:57]So, I'm just I'm I'm responding in real time as you're putting that information out there. And so, yeah, you know, certainly if if this is the case, absolutely, Congress will be all over
[11:07]it. Uh and and we want to find out if in fact that that did occur, if it wasn't properly protected, we're going to want to know that and take the appropriate action. >> I appreciate you responding to that, Mr.
[11:18]Chairman, very much. Uh where do you think things are and how do you evaluate the Lebanon part of the story? Because yesterday the White House said Lebanon was not part of the ceasefire. Now the State Department said it's going to
[11:29]engage in direct negotiations to try to create a ceasefire between Lebanon and Israel. How do you evaluate all this? >> Yeah, you know, Iran always presents
[11:39]somewhat of a moving target and dealing with an adversary like Iran has proven to be difficult on a good day. Um, they routinely violate their word. Um, and so
[11:51]any kind of agreement that you may have had with Iran is certainly subject to change at their whim. And I think it's also reasonable to think that based on Iran's conduct with regard to their
[12:02]relationship with um Hezbollah, with Hamas, with the Houthis, with the Iraqi Shia militia and other proxies that have done and continue to do their bidding,
[12:13]that it's reasonable for us to think that um Lebanon is actually part of this engagement and therefore um you know, we don't necessarily
[12:24]uh think that we're safe from strikes emanating from Lebanon. So, you know, whatever action needs to be taken as it applies to curtailing that, I think is fair game. Now, if you're going to negotiate the solution and say that
[12:35]Lebanon is off the uh um off the list of consideration, then I would think that with your relationship with Hezblah that
[12:44]you could curtail those attacks against Israeli targets or US targets in the region for the sake of negotiations. But if you're going to try to lay this down as a marker, you can't strike Lebanon.
[12:56]But but Lebanon um Hezbollah can strike you. That's that's a non-starter and it's not even realistic. >> How comfortable are you with the negotiations that have been announced
[13:08]between the United States led by the vice president JD Vance and Iranian officials in Islamabad, Pakistan? >> Well, I I think direct engagement is
[13:19]probably the best way to go. If you can sit across the table from the Iranians, that might help quite a bit. I think we've seen in in um initiatives of the past where you've had intermediaries
[13:30]acting on behalf of either Iran or the United States trying to broker deals. It's just never really borne fruit. And
[13:38]so, um you've got three people there who are pretty formidable and Jared Kushner, Steve Wickoff, and JD Vance. And I believe that that team, if there is a if
[13:48]there is a an agreement to be negotiated, they can negotiate it. Do you believe the regime has changed in Iran? >> Absolutely the regime has changed. I
[13:59]think they've gone several tears deep in leadership cadray and I think it has caused at best a disjointed leadership apparatus and at worst um possibly rogue
[14:11]elements of the IRGC and I think that's making it difficult from a targeting perspective. Also, it's difficult to anticipate what might happen next because of a disjointed
[14:22]leadership cadray and and even geographically dispersed also makes a little bit of a challenge as well. So, yeah, I think I think it definitely has
[14:31]changed. You know, a changing regime does not necessarily equal regime change because I still think they're under that
[14:41]mosaic doctrine as it applies to their um ongoing governance. But I do think that's been made very difficult as we've gone several tiers down uh through the leadership cadray. >> Very quickly, so if I hear you
[14:53]correctly, Mr. Chairman, you're saying it has changed in personnel, but not necessarily an ideology or the military firepower in which to internally carry out that ideology and punish those who
[15:04]object to it. >> Correct. And I think this presents not only a challenge to us as it applies to negotiating some sort of a ceasefire or some terms where we can um you know
[15:15]assessation of hostilities as it were, but also presents a challenge to the Iranian people in that the IRGC are extremely ideologically motivated and anyone obviously that stands against
[15:26]them um does so at their own peril. And yet there are millions and millions of Iranians that are crying out for liberation that are that are actually applauding and supporting President
[15:37]Trump and what he's trying to do. And so there are various challenges being presented by this um uh decimated leadership and those that have emerged
[15:48]now at the top of the leadership struggle I think are exacerbating those problems. >> House Intelligence Committee Chairman Rick Crawford of Arkansas. Appreciate the time, sir. Thank you.
[15:57]>> You bet. Thank you. >> Now, Artemis 2. The crew spending its last full day in space, packing things up, getting ready, securing everything
[16:07]for expected splashdown of the coast of, you know, my hometown, San Diego tomorrow night. Along the way, the world has been captivated. I've been captivated. You've been captivated by so
[16:18]many stunning images like the ones you are seeing now. But there might even be a bigger payoff than that than those amazing pictures. What is it? What could it be? Well, lots of experiments
[16:29]conducted. One of them is really fascinating and it includes, you see it right there, carrying computer chips that contain the astronaut's bone
[16:40]marrow. And there is hope that evidence collected from this particular experiment could reshape the practice of medicine here on Earth and tell us more about what it would be like to live for
[16:50]a long period of time in deep space. Earlier I spoke to Donald Ingber who is the founding director of the Vase Institute for Biologically Inspired Engineering at Harvard University. His
[17:01]laboratory was a key collaborator with NASA on this very experiment. Listen, Don, many wonders have come from the
[17:11]Aremis 2 mission. Among them, USB thumb drives, bone marrow cells, and the crew. Explain to my audience what this wonder is about.
[17:22]Well, the the USB thumb drive is describing the size of a small device we call human organ on a chip which is lined with hollow channels and that
[17:33]itself is lined with living human cells from the astronauts that's flying with them around the moon.
[17:42]And the value of those bone marrow cells on these USB thumb drive sized chips is what?
[17:54]>> Well, the idea is to to use them to assess the effects of spaceflight, microgravity and particularly radiation that the astronauts experience. And it's
[18:05]really a proof of concept study to see if we can use these. And again, we have we've matched them with the astronauts. It's the astronaut's own cells. We have these chips both in space and on the
[18:17]ground in parallel and to see if we can uh determine effects on the cells of these astronauts using these devices. Right now we only have a handful of
[18:27]chips, but in the long term if this is proven to be useful, we can send up many chips to the, you know, in in space flights as well potentially on the moon
[18:37]someday to really get larger numbers and to get greater statistical significance and insight into the effects of living
[18:48]in the outside the atmosphere and on distant planets and and and in the long run developing countermeasures that may be protective >> because as you said there's
[18:58]microgravity, partial gravity and all this different forms all these different forms rather of radiation and we don't know that much about them. And if we're
[19:08]going to envision prolonged human exposure on the moon or maybe eventually Mars, we've got to know what these effects are and these chips
[19:18]are a way to get there. We not only need to know what the effects are, we need to be able to develop countermeasures that protect. You know, the radiation is the most
[19:28]dangerous and it's sort of in it's uncontrollable. You know, a solar flare that could happen uh erratically can be really really dangerous. And so, yes.
[19:37]Yes, we it's hard to get insight into how these these conditions in space flight impact the human body for astronauts at a time. But with these
[19:49]chips, in the long term, we may be able to literally use them as avatars um and have many of them to explore, you know, men, women, different different uh
[19:58]ethnic groups, genetic subopuls, and figure out, you know, who might be affected the most, the least, who we need to protect the most. And also on Earth, we use these to develop new
[20:10]drugs. And so we may be able to if we understand the mechanism or the the injury response, we may be able to develop new drugs that could protect in the future. >> So just on that point you made Don this
[20:21]is not only about living in space, it's about improving life potentially on Earth. >> Absolutely. You know the effects of
[20:30]microgravity are muscle and bone wasting which is very similar to the what you see with bedridden patients. If you had countermeasures to protect against that, it could be useful on Earth. Protecting
[20:41]against radiation obviously could be useful on Earth to protect, you know, healthy tissues against cancer radiation therapy or in the case of a major nuclear accident.
[20:52]>> Walk my audience through what's going to happen after splashdown because lots of people are going to be dealing with the data collected. >> Yeah. So, my team is is has been they
[21:03]were in at the Kennedy Space Center for the launch and then they're going to be collecting the samples that will be taken and um we we fix them to freeze
[21:13]the tissues in place in in San Diego when they pick them up from the from the landing and they'll be all transported back to Boston where then all the
[21:22]analyses will be taken will be carried out to determine whether there are effects on um the chrome chromosomes on
[21:31]on inflammation on injury to cells uh and by comparing the ones that were went around the moon and the ones that were on Earth. And we've also have blood samples from the astronauts before and
[21:43]after. And so we'll be comparing the results that we see in the marrow to what we see in the blood cells in the circulation which are produced by the marrow.
[21:53]>> And how long will it be before your team knows what it has learned? That's going to take many months probably to do all the analyses. We're going to be following up I for a number
[22:03]of months with patient with astronaut blood samples to really do all these comparisons. But once again, this is really a pro proof of concept study. Uh can we keep these alive? Do they look
[22:15]anything like uh the individual astronauts? Can we see difference between different astronauts? And um it's really the future where we'd get much more useful information when we put
[22:26]bigger numbers out there. >> And if the concept is in fact proven, it could be electrifying here on Earth and in the heavens. Don Ingra, the Visit, Harvard University. Thank you so very much. I appreciate it.
[22:38]>> Thanks for the opportunity. >> Science. Yay. You can watch special coverage of the Artemis 2 cruise splashdown tomorrow beginning at 7:30
[22:48]p.m. Eastern right here on CBS News 247. Had joked with the reverend that I'm proud to announce that I am not running for president in 2028.
[23:00]>> That New York City Mayor Zoron Mdani at Al Sharpton's National Action Network conference. Mam Donnie born in Uganda ineligible for the presidency. But you're going to have to say the same for
[23:11]many Democrats who were there who might be considering presidential bids of their own. Many of these 2028 potentials were there and several took a jab at,
[23:21]you guessed it, President Trump. The man has been a thorn in the side of working families across the United States, the most vulnerable people in the United States.
[23:31]>> Watching how our gas prices continue to skyrocket. When we push on coalitions, we can force Donald Trump to fire his own attorney general. >> I have had to sue this president as
[23:42]governor 23 times. >> Our Finn Gomez, political director right at CBS News joins us from New York with the latest. Finn, summarize the day for
[23:52]us. >> Hey, Major, how are you? Yeah, greetings from New York. Uh with we just heard from a a a large list of potential 2028 contenders, not just today, but
[24:04]yesterday as well. Governor Shapiro from Pennsylvania. Uh we've heard also from Governor Moore from West Moore from Maryland. Uh and uh also Ruben Ggo,
[24:13]senator from Arizona. Uh JB Pritsker uh the uh governor from Illinois. Uh look, they're all here in large part because here in NAND, the National Action
[24:23]Network, uh it's an organization where this civil rights intersects with politics and there are a lot of big uh political leaders from the black community here. Uh and so uh what you're
[24:34]seeing is this cavalcade, really the largest cavalcade that we've seen so far, major, of these potential 2028 contenders. Uh and uh and it's not what's unifying here. Uh it's not just
[24:45]it or two things major that I'm finding. is like basically they're trying to answer the question how to position themselves against uh President Trump and some of the contro controversial
[24:55]policies uh that a lot of people here are talking about. Uh but also uh there it also there's this uniformity major uh when asked the question if they are
[25:05]running uh for president. Uh no one was confirming that answer today of course. Uh but it's really it's almost like it answers the question uh how do you show that you're running for president
[25:16]without saying you're saying you're running for president and that is why a lot of these folks are here uh because they are getting uh some attention uh the biggest name so far perhaps um in
[25:26]the people that I've spoke to has been Kla Harris who's speaking tomorrow former vice president uh of course lost against President Trump in 2024 but she's been top of mind for many of the
[25:37]people that we spoke to here today at this conference. Major >> and we'll be back to you tomorrow on Kla Harris's remarks. Finn Gomez from New York. Thanks so much. Still to come on
[25:46]the takeout. A new report suggests a somewhat tense relationship between the White House, Pentagon, and the first American Pope. You want to hear about
[25:56]that. Also, The Economist, I call it a magazine, it calls itself a newspaper, whatever you call it, releases its yearly report on the state of global democracy. A look at the new numbers, and those numbers very well may surprise
[26:07]you. Plus, some of the hottest gossip on Capitol Hill. Political reporter Julie Grace Bruffy claims to have it. She calls it the tea. We might even pour some out. You never can tell what's going to
[26:18]happen here. The Takeout returns in 90 seconds. Welcome back to Takeout. Pope Leo,
[26:29]staunch critic of the war in Iran, but as you might expect, praised the fragile ceasefire agreement that's still being dealt with. New piece from the free press finds the relationship between the White House, Pentagon, and the Vatican
[26:40]is quote on the outs. Matia Feresi wrote the piece. He joins me now. He's also a writer for the Italian newspaper Domani. Matia, it's very good to have you with
[26:50]us. Outline for my audience what you believe has put this relationship in a difficult position and why.
[27:00]>> Hi Major, thanks for having me. Uh I think there are fundamental disagreements on pretty much everything that really matters for the Catholic
[27:10]Church, starting from uh immigration policies and enforcement uh to foreign policy and of course the military
[27:19]operation in Venezuela was was was a big blow. Um and last but not least, of course, the war in Iran. And I think
[27:29]we've seen throughout in the last few weeks an escalation in rhetoric from the side of the of Pope Leo uh becoming more
[27:38]and more open and straightforward and explicit about his criticism against Trump to the point
[27:47]that just a few days ago he addressed the American citizens suggesting them to call their congressman and to ask for uh peace on pretty much everything. There
[27:58]is a a deep rift between the Vatican and this administration for sure. >> And you write about a meeting at the
[28:07]Pentagon late January in which French popes from the 1300s were invoked. What was that all about?
[28:18]Yeah, I think that that meeting was very irritual and and really did not it was it was tense. sources involved in that
[28:29]or briefed on the matter reported to me that first uh it's very I I think it's unheard of that there was a meeting with
[28:40]the diplomat so the ambassador of the holy sea summoned or invited to the Pentagon or which is an unlikely place for a diplomatic meeting especially for
[28:51]a small state with no army so does that and also I I think there was some tensions and it was described to me as a bitter lecture in which the
[29:02]US officials voiced their disagreement with some position that the church took recently. And in that context there was what I think was a very unsavory
[29:13]joke uh about the Aignon papacy that um moment in the 14th century in which you know the French crown used its military
[29:25]and its political power to sort of curb the papal authority. So there was a kind of like a veiled uh threat or for sure
[29:35]it was a it was a line that was not designed to make you know Vatican officials uh at ease.
[29:44]Matia, today both the Pentagon and the administration have put out statements describing the reporting that you've done as exaggerating. I want to get your
[29:54]response to that. >> Sure. Uh I think the first they acknowledged the fact that the meeting happened which it was not obvious. It
[30:05]was not acknowledged. The meeting meeting happened in January 22nd. It was never reported. So there's that and as I said it's inherent in the fact that it happened at the Pentagon. There's
[30:17]something absolutely off and not u and not usual about this. Uh second, I do
[30:25]stand by my uh reporting. Um I got several sources uh that described to me um the content of the meeting and the
[30:35]tone of the meeting. I think I I I think I will stand by my reporting and uh I don't see any other evidence that prove
[30:43]that the content of it was different. >> Matia Feresi, reporter with Domani in Italy and also the free press. I appreciate your time very much. Thank
[30:54]you. >> Coming up, I will be joined by the chief economist from the Economist Intelligence Unit. We're going to discuss its yearly democracy index
[31:05]report. Not all doom and gloom. That's next here on the takeout. Welcome back to the Takeout. Thank you for spending time with us, hanging out
[31:15]with us. The Economist Intelligence Unit has released its annual report on the state of global democracy. The headline for 2025 might be better than you think.
[31:25]The report outlines the end of what it refers to as a democratic recession. You can see it on the chart on your screen. That's because 85% of the world's democracies, covers about 40% of the
[31:36]world population either held steady or improved in their democratic strength. Constance Hunter joins me now. She is the chief economist for the economist intelligence unit. Constants, great to
[31:48]have you with us. Let me help my audience understand how you how you measure this. This is your index measures for democracy. Put them up on the screen. Control room, electoral
[31:58]process and pluralism, functioning of government, political participation, political culture, civil liberties. Why was this a marginally better year
[32:08]globally than the year before? Sure, it was a better year because we saw improvements in scores um in political culture and functioning of government.
[32:19]The other thing is that we had seen deterioration in those full and flawed democracies, the top uh scores in our fourpillar index and those countries all
[32:31]showed as you said 85% were the same or improved. And then if we look at the lower part of the index, authoritarian uh regimes and hybrid regimes, we also
[32:42]saw some improvements in hybrid regimes. We saw five hybrid regimes move up into that flawed democracy category, which is not something we have seen in recent years.
[32:53]>> The United States dropped six places, now ranked 34th overall in your democracy scale. Why? >> Well, a number of reasons. We saw a
[33:05]decline in civil liberties. Um we saw a decline in the effectiveness of government. And those are two key scores that that lowered the US this year. And
[33:16]just so you know, we're tied with Poland, and we are neighbors with Latafia, which scores just above us, and Batswana, which scores just below us. >> Political participation is part of your
[33:27]measurement in the Trump era, and I've chronicled this every election. participation, presidential elections, midterms, off the charts and functioning of government. The Trump White House
[33:38]would say is it's it's a high functioning government. >> Well, some of that is determined by the transparency of government. And so, we've certainly seen a reduction in
[33:49]governmental transparency um since this since Trump's second term. And whether we uh count this as um the mass firings
[33:57]that we saw under the Doge uh program or the type and amount of information that uh people have access to, the removal of
[34:07]um journalists from um from the uh defense department um the attacks on journalism that have been seen from this administration all reduce the
[34:19]transparency and the functioning of government. And very very quickly, how would it factor in if at all if someone says, "I'm going to do these things." They're voted into office and they do
[34:30]them. Meaning, this is what I often hear from the Trump White House. We said we were going to do these things. You may not like them, but we said we were going to do it. We got voted in.
[34:39]>> So, that's absolutely a valid um defense from the Trump White House. I think one of the things that we might see is an increase in political participation here
[34:49]in these midterms. Right. We have things like we got the the PC prices this morning. We saw an increase in prices due to tariffs. I think this is going to
[35:00]bring people out to the polls. And we'll see if if all of those points are things that people um agree with the Trump administration on. >> Decades I have been a subscriber. I love
[35:10]the economist Constant Hunter. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. >> Coming up, our political panel will join me to discuss NATO chief Mark Rut's meeting yesterday with President Trump and a lot more. You're watching and
[35:22]thoroughly enjoying. You know it, I know it. The takeout. Welcome back. It is reporter panel time.
[35:31]It is also coincidentally dark suit, blue button-down shirt time here at the Takeout. Ken Thomas, national politics reporter for the Wall Street Journal. You can see he shed his neck time. Appropriately so. Thumbs up. Dave
[35:43]Levventhal, senior editor at Notice. Remember that's news of the US iron rule on this program. If I pitch to it before we go to break, I bring it up in the panel. Mark Rut at NATO Secretary
[35:53]General talked to Jake Tapper at CNN after his meeting with the president yesterday. Said many things. This stood out to me. Listen. President Trump's commitment to progress
[36:06]refers more than a generation of stagnation and atrophy by reminding Europe that values must be backed by hard power.
[36:16]Not Jake Tapper. That's at the Reagan Foundation today. But the point is again, not buttering up Trump, but trying to say to Trump, we value the
[36:28]things you have done. Do not torpedo this alliance. >> Ken. >> Yeah, Major. I mean, I think Ruda's mission this week was to try to sort of
[36:37]soften the blow, minimize any damage uh to NATO. The president said ahead of his visit that NATO is a paper tiger. He's been >> disappointed. >> Disappointed, >> tested, failed.
[36:49]>> We have reporting this week that the White House has been looking to punish NATO by perhaps moving some troops around. Uh, you know, maybe moving some troops out of say Spain or Germany. You
[37:01]know, I'm told that's not operational yet. But >> we discussed this on the program yesterday with former NATO ambassador Evo Dalder and he said, "Yeah, it's come up before. It's on the everyone's nervous about it in Europe.
[37:12]Dave. >> Well, Donald Trump can't get what he wants, which is probably a greater division from NATO than the United States ever could have right now. He would need Congress to do that, and he
[37:23]just simply does not have the votes. You're talking at two/3 supermajority, and that is just not in the card. So, he's working around the margins. Something really unusual happened at the White House today that it took the president of the United States and his
[37:34]communications team by surprise, as I understand it. The first lady came out and made a statement about Jeffrey Epstein and her saying there's no relationship and she's being slandered and defamed when no one's talking about
[37:45]it. Ken, it sounds like she's the first lady trying to get out ahead of something. >> That's what it sounds like. We don't know what the next shoot drop will be, but I do know that this certainly took White House officials by surprise. There
[37:57]were a lot of people who did not know this was coming. And when Caroline Levit previewed this uh appearance yesterday in the White House briefing, she said it
[38:07]was about this legislation that they passed uh dealing with AI and protecting young people. So this certainly came out of left field, >> Dave.
[38:17]>> Yeah. Nope. I mean, this really >> That's not what it was about. >> Not what it was about. And uh and and probably the last thing that Donald Trump actually wants back in the headlines right now. I mean, when was
[38:28]the last time we all focused on Jeffrey Epstein and the Epstein files absent Iran or any of the other things going on in the world now back in the headlines for probably all the wrong reasons, at least as far as Donald Trump.
[38:39]>> And as the ranking Democrat on the House oversight committee noted, almost immediately, the first lady called for hearings with victims before Congress. And a big debate right
[38:50]now as to whether Pam Bondi is going to have to testify before Congress even though she >> Justice Department says she doesn't because she's no longer attorney general. Ken, that was a big development. And when the announcement that she was fired was made, those
[39:02]who've been watching the Epstein story said they're going to try to do something to quash that subpoena. >> Yeah, I think this is a story that a lot of people thought maybe was on the back burner and this could revitalize it.
[39:13]>> No doubt. Very quickly, high stakes for JD Vance, the vice president, in the next couple of days. Sure. Going to be in Islamabad and going to be in in essence leading a team of uh a small
[39:24]delegation that includes uh Jared Kushner along Donald Trump's son-in-law of course uh with Iranian officials ostensibly there at the table as well
[39:34]direct direct uh it's a incredibly fluid situation those talks may occur while the straight is still closed. >> That's right. >> With the president saying we're not doing anything collaboratively with you
[39:45]while the straight's still closed. He may have to. >> Yeah. And that I I talked to White House officials today and they said like that is the key objective here to try to get the straight reopen in the short term. And so, you know, that's that's top of
[39:57]the list. >> Dark suits, blue button-down. It's a really killer look, folks. It's underestimated. Ken Thomas, Dave Lemonthal, thank you. >> Thank you. >> What's the hottest gossip in Washington? Julie Grace Busky says she has it. The
[40:08]Hill Spill is her newsletter. She joins me. There might be tea. Try not to spill it. Well, the other tea. I guess we might. when you come back. Welcome back to the Takeout. Welcome to
[40:22]the conversation corner. Now, the young people who help me on this show have explained to me that tea is gossip. And when you spill the tea, you relay gossip. So, we're going to try to do
[40:32]that. Spill the tea. Not literally, cuz I have a tea kettle here. And listen to this cool sound. Wow. See, we're going to pour the tea out. See, there we go. Like that. There. Oh, it looks like
[40:42]looks like formidable tea. I like that. None of that pale wimpy stuff. All right, done the tea, made the sound. We're moving along. Julie Grace Bruffky
[40:51]hosts the Sources Say podcast and now this is a new thing, a new endeavor. She writes the Hill Spill newsletter. >> Welcome. >> Thanks for having me. >> Have some tea. All right.
[41:03]>> Cheers. We love the tea. >> Bernie Sanders on a plane. What happened? So, I had some sources that were on this plane and TMZ initially tweeted out a picture of him sitting in first class, but people on the plane called me
[41:14]shortly afterwards and they were like, "He got the guy sitting next to him kicked out of first class." >> Uh, then the flight attendants escorted back like, "Sorry about that." And had a staffer go sit next to him. So, I reached out to their office multiple
[41:25]times and heard nothing back. But, >> wow, heard people on the plane. It was uh not a huge seat. >> Like, you have a first class seat and you got to move. >> Yeah. >> Oh, man. The people Bernie, I don't know. Well, look look Bernie, if you
[41:36]want to if you want to say you didn't do that, you come on the show, you get free time. But Julie Grace says she heard so. So anyway, old hobby Republican Congressman Rob Breznahan. What is it?
[41:47]>> It's Rob Brezahan. I talked to him last week. He I got a whole oppo file and he was a ghost hunter back in the day, which I feel like >> a ghost hunter. >> A ghost hunter. So you go into like Zack
[41:58]would go in >> Yes. I've watched Ghost Adventures. Send me to reality TV prison. He's actually going to come on my podcast in a couple weeks and was telling me about an alien encounter. So, I feel like that's going to be a very interesting episode.
[42:10]>> Sounds like tea to me. George Santos now out of jail after a Trump pardon. What is he doing as a free man? >> So, I talked to him this morning and he is >> just this morning. Wow. Very fresh tea.
[42:21]>> He after giving me some pointers on White House correspondents dresses, he uh told me he is having a baby. So, they uh they he and his husband have found a surrogate and they're excited about it. They're uh he's excited for baby
[42:33]clothes. That is that is his tea of the day. >> So George Santos and his partner. >> Yes. >> Have a surrogate. Yes. >> And they're going to through the surrogate >> bring a baby into the world and raise
[42:44]the child >> that they are in. That is he is excited about it. He uh also just got a house in Florida. So I think uh in Orlando. >> Get on with your parenting self. And did I hear you say he gave you advice on
[42:55]White House correspondents dinner? >> Dresses. >> Dresses. He did. So he was suggesting I go up to New York and go shopping this weekend. Good advice. it. You know, he has no problem telling you when he doesn't like a dress. So, I can I can
[43:07]tell you that there have been a couple years where he's he has given >> He told you personally he did not like your dress. >> Well, no. I I ran something because he's always hating on people on Twitter about it. So, I was like I was like I was like
[43:18]that thing that Twitter approval. I spend no time there. I really don't. But you probably do. It's kind of an occupational you know >> requirement hazard. Julie Grace Broky the tea. It was delicious. Thanks
[43:29]Christian for that. Excellent tea. Happy Thursday everyone. We had tea and made noises and all sorts of cool stuff. This is the takeout. You know what we are? Relentlessly curious, reliably civil,
[43:40]and with tea occasionally clever. Daily report coming your way next.