[0:00]Any association with this prolific, internationally famous pedophile and sex groomer should have been a red flag. >> Virginia is very clear. She wasn't talking about one man. It was that whole
[0:11]world. She's talking about the 1%. That 1% who think they can do anything. >> His incredibly long letter. It fit the language of the rest of the birthday
[0:22]notices to Epstein perfectly. They all had that kind of like grim, icky, euphemistic chatter about sort of sexuality. The thing that's hanging over this whole conversation is the fact that Donald
[0:33]Trump is in that book as well. >> And does it actually put more heat on him that Mandelon has gone over his relationship with Epste? [Music]
[0:43]Hello and welcome to the forecast. For the third time in his political career, Peter Mandlesson has fallen from high office in a scandal linked to rich and powerful men. This time it was his
[0:54]relationship with the disgraced financia Jeffrey Epstein that proved his undoing. Sacked from his role as UK ambassador to the US after leaked emails showed him offering support for Epstein even after
[1:05]a sex offense conviction. Downing Street said the prime minister found the depth and extent of the relationship reprehensible. But questions are now being asked about Sakir Starmer's judgment in appointing him in the first
[1:16]place given Lord Mandelson has attracted some would say courted controversy throughout his career. He was widely considered to be doing a good job in Washington though with a good rapport with President Trump. Is that
[1:28]relationship now damaged? To discuss this, I'm joined by the filmmaker Richard Sanders who produced the Dispatches documentary that first revealed the friendship between the two men, the Labour peer Aisha Hazera, and
[1:40]the author and political journalist Ian Dun who has written extensively on Lord Mandlesson. Well, Aisha first, he had to go, didn't he? >> Absolutely. I mean, I think many people
[1:51]felt that when the extent of his close personal friendship with Jeffrey Epstein came to to light, you know, people knew that they were friends, but I think the
[2:02]the level of kind of affection, I mean, they felt like they were love letters being being written and, you know, to use colloquial phrase, I mean, they kind of gave everybody the ick. I mean, it
[2:13]really was some of it was quite kind of stomach turnurning. stomach training anyway, but to have these letters to somebody who, you know, was really kind of the modern day equivalent in America of what
[2:24]Jimmy Savile was in in the United Kingdom. So, absolutely without question, he definitely had to go. >> Ian Dun, it it's been a shameful episode and and shaming to Britain as well in
[2:34]the eyes of the US maybe. >> Yeah, I mean, it's quite hard. There's not a lot more of our national reputation for us to uphold at the moment and we're really struggling to keep what we do have. this isn't really
[2:45]helping. We had a really good ambassador to the US. We had Karen Pierce, you know, seasoned diplomat, not the kind of person who ends up on the kind of islands that we're talking about here.
[2:56]You know, had a long career stretching back to the 80s starting in Japan, had managed to, you know, build the bases in that kind of subtle old-fashioned British Foreign Office sort of way across the spectrum in the US. And then
[3:08]you get this decision which felt kind of weird at the time being, well, we need a political operator. and you say, "Well, you don't really need it. You're absolutely you've got a really good amb. Why would you be making any of these changes?" And at that point, we knew
[3:18]everything that we know now. I mean, fine. So, a few emails have come to light, but it wasn't like the basic facts. We said today the material facts have the material facts have not changed at all. >> Well, let me bring in Richard on that point, British Sanders, because you
[3:29]know, we made this film together back in 2019. The government pops up today and says, "Well, there's a material change now in what we knew about Mandleston's Mandlesson's relationship with Epstein."
[3:39]What did we find out in 2019 that we broadcast to the world? Yeah, >> it was very frustrating really because back in 2019 we had an interviewee. He was an anonymous interviewee. He was a
[3:48]close friend of um of Epstein's you know a man interesting man a very very wealthy man had had his own yacht had various connections with the intelligence services um himself and he
[3:59]told us this extraordinary story of visiting Epstein while he was supposedly in prison um your sort of very very luxurious prison and while he's there he gets this phone call >> because he was allowed out on day
[4:11]release to do calls in his office >> yes I mean you know and he was only in prison for a year and he gets this extraordinary a phone call from this gentleman called Pety and he's sort of listening to he's trying to work out
[4:22]what it is and and the phone call itself is interesting. This person wants Epstein to arrange a meeting. Once the phone was hung up, it became quite clear that that Pety was Peter Mandlesson and and it was clear that they were very
[4:33]close friends. The tone of it was they were very close friends and and also in Peter Mlesson didn't deny this at the time. What he said is I have no recollection >> of that meeting which is a rather rather
[4:44]different thing from denying something. We got a lot of legal push back at the time. >> Lot lot of legal push back, but it evaporated after we'd actually um gone to But he also said an interesting thing. He said, "Why would I need Jeffrey Epstein to make my bookings for
[4:56]me in New York?" Which is precisely the point. Why indeed? >> And we'll talk, we'll come to, you know, why Mandlesson was sort of seduced by rich and powerful men in a second. But
[5:05]Aisha, all of this, given what we knew back in 2019 that we put out on air and what has dribbled out since, it raises serious questions, doesn't it, about
[5:15]Sakir Stalmer's judgment in appointing Peter Mandlesson to this plum job? >> Well, it's now coming to light that concerns were raised. the Labour payer
[5:26]Morris Glassman who's very close to Morgan Mweeny who is K Star's chief of staff you know it said that he submitted a memo you know close to the time saying
[5:36]look I'm think this is a a difficult appointment but I think the calculation was from K star's team that
[5:46]the prospect of negotiating with Donald Trump was going to be so difficult particularly when a lot of people in the cabinet had sort of slagged Donald Trump off over the You needed somebody >> including Peter Madison though.
[5:57]>> Absolutely. But you needed somebody who could kind of sort of be a Trump whisperer who could move in those sort of circles which Peter is very good at doing because he does like wealth and he
[6:08]likes wealthy men and powerful men as as as we've seen. But I think what what should have been a big red flag is the fact that anybody with a close
[6:19]friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, massive massive red flag. Don't forget the Prince Andrew story and saga in our country. The Emily Mateless interview. Um the fact that he kept his friendship
[6:31]going with Jeffrey Epstein even after he had been uh convicted and the fact that you know Prince Andrew had to be sort of discarded from from from the royal
[6:39]family. I mean any association with this prolific internationally famous pedophile and sex groomer should have been a red flag. But I think the
[6:50]calculation was that the government and I I kind of understand from a you know from a business point of view from a trade point of view you know they were just thinking about look we don't want to get massive tariffs from Trump we
[7:00]want to have a good deal with Trump but I think you also have to remember your your values in this. >> Yeah Ian don't he should never have been appointed in the first place. >> No I mean obviously not and then having
[7:11]been appointed they needed to be much quicker off the mark of realizing what the significance of what's happened this week was in fact they failed. So yesterday you get like prime minister in PMQ speaking very confidently about
[7:23]something that you're looking at him and thinking like is that line going to hold? Like it it doesn't feel like it's going to hold. Sending out minister this morning and the immigration minister >> to hold that line and you're thinking
[7:33]like this line is not going to hold. So that's someone there who's not going to forget the fact that they've been sent out to do that who will be a bit more reticent about going out to hold the government line next time. Once you build a lot of people around you who
[7:44]feel that way, who question your judgment, who don't know if they'll be hung out to dry and made to look a fool by the fact that you're going to U-turn on something that you currently seem terribly confident about, that's when things start to become quite difficult for you in parliament. That's what
[7:56]scuppered plenty of Conservative prime ministers over the last, you know, decade and a bit. So, no, I would worry quite a lot about the decision-making that lay behind both the original appointment and the things that have happened this week.
[8:06]>> And Peter Mandlesson has already been turfed out of cabinet jobs in the past. Well, >> and you were there when some of that happened. >> Yeah. I mean, look, he he's very much seen as the sort of Icarus um you know,
[8:17]kind of character in in in the Labour party. He was um you know, he had to resign because of a loan he took from a man called Jeffrey Robinson. Um he then had to resign over an issue about
[8:29]passports for two Indian businessmen, the Hinduja brothers, although he was subsequently cleared of that. So he is somebody that is kind of a high risk
[8:39]high voltage person. But I think the other thing that I'd just like to sort of say in all of this Kathy is that look >> this new Labor government has also got a really important mission and that is to
[8:50]half violence against women and girls and it's really proud to be a party even though we haven't had a female leader. We're very proud of of delivering for women particularly in terms of violence
[9:00]against women. And I think a lot of women in the Labour party were really horrified about this. We've just had this big grooming scandal in this country, the Pakistani uh grooming
[9:10]scandal. I met some victims recently in parliament and it was so painful listening to them and the long tale of
[9:20]this kind of abuse from women who were groomed from a young age by pedophiles and raped for sex. People think these are crimes that happened like, you know, 20 years ago. Get over it. Move on. No.
[9:30]for these women, the long tale of these crimes. I mean, Virginia Jeffrey took her own life and I think in a midst in the midst of all this, who's up, who's down, what kind of characters, Peter,
[9:41]there are victims who are everyday reliving this horror and trauma. >> Well, and Richard, it was very clear in that just excruciating birthday book
[9:51]that we're we're that we saw, 238 pages, the running joke about Epstein's appetite for young women. I mean, horrifying. Um, but there'll be other
[10:02]people now sweating because they know that they've looked at what's happened to Peter Mandlesson. They know that they might be next. Tell us about that. >> Well, there's a lot of people. You see, when we did the film in 2019, all this
[10:13]business about the the Epstein list and will the Epstein list be be produced? I don't think it's quite as mysterious as that. We there had been a lot of legal proceedings over the years and we looked
[10:24]into those legal proceedings really carefully and there was a massive documentation online and when you really picked it apart you got you know a lot of names all very rich and very powerful
[10:36]a lot of them very well known um some world leaders in there now in the year after our film I got to know Virginia um quite well I used to speak to Virginia
[10:45]on the phone all all the time and she was very keen to go go after um she she wanted to go after them, but obviously it's the legal implications. You you're going to get sued by these people. >> But is that going to start happening
[10:56]now, do you think? I mean, because there's talk the Epstein victims talking about sort of putting together their own client list and getting out there naming and shaming. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, it would it would all depend on the lawyers. I mean, you know, we we we discussed this making
[11:08]follow-up um films and and and the problem was the the risk of being sued by extremely wealthy people. >> Are you sure, you know, a client list?
[11:18]Is that is that where this now goes? >> Well, I think where this should go now is um instead of just talking about the careers of very you know rich men, I
[11:28]think this needs to move to the victims and justice for the victims. There are many many men implicated in this. This is a you know a very elite network of of
[11:38]men. And I think when Peter Mandlesson did that interview with the son and he said you know my heart goes out to to those victims. I hope and I sincerely
[11:49]hope he did mean that and I think one thing he could do because nobody is coming forward to help those victims and you know give any evidence or talk to them about what they know and that's
[12:01]what you know will move this case forward. So I would strong I would like to see him reach out to the victims groups now and sit down with them and
[12:10]tell people what he saw and what he knew to help these victims. I mean, there's no implication that he was involved in the abuse in any way whatsoever. I should just make that clear. But Ian,
[12:22]what do you think of that suggestion that Peter Mandlesson should sort of help expose and name and shame some of these rich and very powerful men? >> Yeah, that would be helpful. I I don't think it's likely, but but I mean, you know, it would be encouraging if we were
[12:34]to see something like that. I mean, I think we we've understood the the pattern with him. It's strange, you know, because we just had like a summer of Oasis and everything's about the late '9s. Now I just feel like I'm back in
[12:45]the late '9s. It's exactly the same story that we were dealing in like 1998. It's the first time he had a resignation. It's the same the resignation is always the same. It's always the same circumstance. It's like should you really have been friends with
[12:55]this tremendously wealthy man when he was EU commissioner by the way in between these two lives. Exactly the same stories coming out. Should you really have been seeing this Russian oligarch? Should you really have been hanging out with this person from Microsoft when they were under
[13:06]investigation? You know over and over it's the same story with him. When someone exhibits the kind of behavior you see like that just happening over and over with regularity unchanged over about 30 decades, you sort of think, I
[13:17]very much doubt this person's going to change anytime soon, and I'm afraid I wouldn't have much hope that he will. >> What is it about, you know, wealthy men that appeals to Peter Mandlesson?
[13:28]>> And I mean, for certain people that is a very attractive kind of social millu to be in, and I guess he's one of them. What's interesting about his incredibly
[13:37]long letter was that it fit the language of the rest of the birthday notices to Epstein perfectly. They all had that
[13:46]kind of like grim icky euphemistic chatter about sort of sexuality. You saw the same with man stuff about the yum yum this and that. It was all it was icky, right? But it was the exact language that all the other letters were
[13:58]using. He clearly fit in that society in that kind of social context. Asia. >> Well, I mean, I think Peter has always been very um seduced by by wealth and
[14:09]he's always obviously always been attracted to it and you know, you know, I I know Peter reasonably well. I've worked with him over the the years and I think for people who are very very close
[14:21]to him the frustration is he's a he is a great political mind and he's also his own worst enemy in the sense that you know he has this ability to
[14:32]self-sabotage his his his career and he is obviously you know like a moth to the flame attracted to extreme wealth and these very particular types of very
[14:43]wealthy very powerful men you don't really get that many powerful wealthy women. So, it is powerful wealthy men. >> Ian, how's the state visit going to go now? >> That's going to be really good
[14:54]difficult. I mean, mostly because of course the thing that's hanging over this whole conversation is the fact that Donald Trump is in that book as well. Despite the fact that, you know, the far right in the US have been pretending for over a decade now that they're
[15:04]tremendously worked up by elite networks. So, they've completely imagined in their head. The second that they get presented with a real elite network that implicates their hero, they suddenly don't have anything to say. Nevertheless, he is in that book and in
[15:15]any rational world, that would be the the first thing and the only thing that we would be talking about over the last week as as a globe, as a world, that's what we would be discussing. >> And does it actually put more heat on him that Mandelon has gone over his
[15:27]relationship with Epstein? >> It's going to make it a tremendously difficult thing for Karma to navigate, which is the conversation about Peter Manson on the one hand, and what he needs to do to keep Donald Trump sweet during a state visit on the other. And
[15:39]there's a very small area in between those two circles that you can operate within in a way that isn't going to upset attitudes on one side or the other. And I think Sama is going to really struggle with that. That is a
[15:49]problem of his own making. And if they'd been a little bit more cognizant and strategic about the way that these things could work out, that problem would not necessarily have had to have taken place. >> Ian is right. Look, Peter Mandlesson not
[16:00]being here orchestrating and conducting this uh state visit will make it more difficult and of course there will be more scrutiny and more heat on Donald
[16:10]Trump now because of of of the Epstein um connection and of course all of this also makes it quite difficult for the royal uncomfortable for the royal family because of the Prince Andrew link as
[16:20]well. This is all going to be very very tense but you know um also we've got a new foreign secretary as well who will be kind of navigating this. I mean it
[16:32]helps that David Lammy does have a good relationship with JD Vance. I'm sure David Lami as deputy prime minister will will now probably move into quite an important position but I don't think we should kid ourselves this state visit is
[16:43]going to be quite quite tricky. Just on the point about about Trump, it's very important to bear in mind >> who denies any wrongdoing and and Virginia was quite clear that she'd never been abused by Trump. Um Epstein's
[16:54]world was fundamentally a democratic world as was Harvey Weinstein's. Okay. Um Bloomberg have 18,000 of Epstein's emails. All right. I think Trump's name pops up three times. There's a story that is very odd. It hasn't been picked
[17:06]up more. Yesterday the Times reported that there's a memo Peter M. Mandlesson sent to Tony Blair in 2002 saying, "You really ought to meet this man." Now, it wasn't meet him to discuss this or something specific. It was just in
[17:17]general, he's a useful person to know. I'm amazed. No one seems to have asked Tony Blair, "Did you meet him?" >> Don't worry, we've been bidding for him. But, um, but I mean, how damaging is this whole thing to Trump, though? I
[17:29]mean, I I take your point that this was a sort of a bigger problem for the Democrats, but you know, Trump happens to be the one in power. So, how problematic is the whole thing for him? >> I think it is problematic. Trump and he fell out at a certain point before
[17:41]Epstein went to prison. They fell out and that that relationship stopped. So I I'm not sure how much more there is to come out about Trump than has already come out. I mean I used to talk to Virginia a lot. >> That's been bad enough though.
[17:52]>> It's been bad enough. I used to talk to Virginia quite a lot about Trump. She he was sleazy. You'd see him around. He was a sleazy unpleasant presence. But other men loomed much larger in her memory. >> Um just coming back to the state visit
[18:04]and sort of picking up the pieces from this mess. Uh, who will be I mean we know we've got an acting ambassador, but who's going to be the permanent replacement
[18:13]>> or who should be question? Well, I mean, look, I do agree with what Ian said. I mean, Karen Pierce was a really wellrespected figure. I think having a a
[18:24]female ambassador is a is a is a really um good thing. She was somebody who, you know, the White House felt that they could work with. you know, she was
[18:33]really respected by the um by the the department. And I think as well, I think civil servants and the diplomatic service were always felt slightly
[18:44]uncomfortable about this top job being a political appointment rather than being an appointment that went to sort of a top diplomat who had really, you know, cut their teeth around the the world. And
[18:55]>> so it should revert to that in your view? Well, I just think after after everything that's happened, I think that would make a lot of sense. I mean, let's see what number 10 decide to do, but I think bringing Karen back would be no
[19:07]bad thing. Ian, is it got to be sort of a political now? >> Hopefully, we would go back to the default setting and go for that kind of person. There is a reason that we have these people in those kind of jobs and
[19:17]and they don't typically get themselves into trouble like this. Yeah, >> it would also be quite good for the Labor government to just have a think about the kind of language and principles that had established at the
[19:28]beginning when it came. We are going to show that you can kill populism by virtue of just shown like we are going to get rid of sle. We're going to get rid of this kind of behavior.
[19:38]Now, we've we've seen things that I think are very I thought the Angela Raina thing was very very minor and extremely forgivable and a bit silly on tax. It's not it's nowhere near the kind of >> other people see it differently. I think we do see it differently, but I mean I I
[19:49]would be surprised if you went to most people with what do you think the moral severity of these two stories is last week or this week? Most people would obviously think this is a much graver kind of situation that we're talking about this week. So on that basis, it's a good chance for them to say hang on a
[20:01]minute, let's make sure we're living up to that language and those principles that we expressed when we first came into government. I just think so what's so kind of um fascinating from a kind of a feminist point of view, it just shows
[20:12]you about this kind of network of these incredibly powerful this these elite men and the sort of impunity with which they
[20:22]thought they could behave and the fact that they earned a lot of money or they ran these big businesses or they held these great positions in office.
[20:31]I I I mean I I hope so. I don't know. And I think so many people will will look at this and just think, you know, this sort of in inherently sort of
[20:42]patriarchal sort of behavior, which is and this sort of behavior without impunity, men who clearly felt that they could just get away with it because these were the masters of the universe.
[20:52]These were kind of these global emperors and they were above the law and they were above morality and they were above decency. I mean and and and the tentacles of Jeffrey Epstein go, you
[21:03]know, as you say, it's not just one political party. It was Democrats, Republicans, you know, the Labour. I'm sure there's political parties all over the world, >> business, >> business, the royal family. You know,
[21:14]there is a nexus of this absolutely like disgusting, venal, sickening behavior which these men for decades have just been able to get away with. >> And so that that's Virginia used to talk
[21:26]about that all the time. She was very clear. She wasn't talking about one man. She wasn't even talking about the the the sort of circle around him. It was that whole world he moved to. She used to talk about the 1% that 1% who think
[21:37]they can do anything. >> Well, let's talk about the politics more broadly. Aisha, you're well plugged into the entire uh parliamentary party, of course. How disgruntled are people? >> Well, I mean, there's no way to sort of
[21:48]sugar the pill. I mean, it has been a very very difficult couple of weeks for the for the I mean, it's been disastrous, hasn't it? >> Of course, it's been very very difficult. been coming back doing a reset and then at the end of that week
[22:00]you know losing Angela Raina who you know I think she had to go given what she did but it was a great loss to the party because she was a really good communicator she was held in a great
[22:11]amount of affection she was a great campaigner um and now a week on losing you know one of the kind of prime jobs in in in the government you know in
[22:23]terms of the sort of trinkets given out it's terrible and I the members and the parliamentary Labor Party are are definitely sort of jittery, but they're not just sort of
[22:33]jittery in an internal way. They want this get Labor government to succeed, right? They really want this Labor government to succeed because the alternative is absolutely terrifying.
[22:44]The prospect of staring down the barrel at Prime Minister Nigel Farage is absolutely terrifying. From >> Labour's incompetence is is bringing that day further forward by the minute. Listen, things have not been going well
[22:55]and the Labour Party does and the the kind of leadership absolutely needs to to get a grip. But in terms of where the mood of the party is, it's it's very worried and it wants the kind of
[23:07]leadership and it wants to pull together to sort of do good for the country and tell that story. But at the moment it just feels like there's so many sort of scandals happening and they want to they
[23:17]want this Labor government to as as Ian said do what they promised to do which is come in change the country fix this country for the for the better you know a and and and get on with building a
[23:29]sort of positive Britain and they want to move on from from from these distractions. Ian, >> I just think anyone at the moment who is like even from the center right to the
[23:39]sort of socialist left is just desperate for this government to succeed cuz you're seeing the stuff in the wings and the stuff in the wings is not the conservatism that we're used to. We
[23:50]we're having some like a mainstream politician stand up and talk about basically like mass deportations like it's what like some kind of normal policy. It's a farright policy. That's what it is. It's farright
[24:02]talk. is farright rhetoric. We know that there is this poison and yet when you look for some kind of leadership, what you see from the top of the Labour Party is just this sort of sense of like we we
[24:13]are unwilling to speak about our values. Like we're just not going to say we're unwilling to speak with any kind of emotion at all. The only criticism we will make of even a policy as extreme as that is we think that you've constructed
[24:24]it incompetently. It's like that's not the problem with the policy. The problem with the policy is that it's a moral obscenity. So there is just no sense of a progressive voice seemingly like in this country at all. It's really hard to
[24:34]find it anywhere to the point that you end up with you know like the leader of the Green Party and the FT like you know that's where you're getting your prog ridiculous state of affairs. >> So Aisha if the leadership doesn't get
[24:45]his act together is K star potentially out of a job before the next election. >> I I don't I don't think so because I do think that even though people are disgruntled remember I think you have to
[24:56]just look back through history. It is not often that Labour wins a general election. Kost Dharma is only the seventh Labour prime minister in the history of British politics. Right. Uh
[25:07]and so I think even though people are are definitely not happy at the moment and grumbling, I think people do also remember that we don't often have a Labor government. It was hard fought for
[25:19]and to be fair to Kia Star, he is the person that got the party over the line for many, many years. Labor is very very good at losing elections. He did something that that no Labour leader has done for a long time and I've worked for
[25:30]a number of different Labour leaders. He got Labor over the line. But what he's got to do is um he's got to sort of get his team together. And look, there are
[25:41]some really important things that happening. Things are starting to turn a corner with the NHS. There's record investment going into infrastructure and planning. you know, the defense spending
[25:52]is is is is doing lots of good work for kind of jobs up and down the country. Massive ship building coming back to to to to Scotland with this Norway deal. So, >> and the economy is stalling and immigration is still skyhigh,
[26:04]>> but that but it's wrong to say that there's like it's not balancing, but Labor absolutely has to get a grip. And one thing you said, you said emotionally, and that's so important.
[26:15]It's no point just pointing to charts and graphs going look what's happening. It's about having an emotional connection and having an emotional dialogue because people out there right now are so anxious. They're anxious
[26:26]about the economy. They're anxious about immigration. They're anxious about crime, antisocial behavior, what they're seeing. And Labor has got to be more on the front foot of better kind of
[26:36]speaking a language that connects with people. >> Ian Karma has never been capable of speaking that language. Do you see him safe in his job until the next election or do you think if things keep on you
[26:47]know far is still ahead in the polls for the next year two whatever then it's curtains for K the you can hear the whispers I mean even the way the people have been
[26:57]talking about Andy Burnham you know in this slightly sci-fi sort of way it's quite hard to see the blocking of how you get him into part of it but you know even that the sort of you know these attempts at just finding some kind of alternative you can hear the whispers
[27:08]starting to build now still the good money would be on Kama leading into the next election Absolutely. >> Aisha, finally, you're in the Lords for Labour. You looking forward to sharing those benches with Peter Mandlesson. >> Well, let's see if he, you know, comes
[27:20]back and wants to I mean, he might want to stay in America for for a while. That would be a decision for him. >> Would he be welcome in the Lords, though? >> You'll have to ask some of his other colleagues. >> Well, I'm asking you, do you welcome him
[27:31]back to the Lords? I mean, is is it appropriate that he's been sacked from one of the plum jobs? Is it right that he turns up back in the Lords lab? That is an I mean the way the lords operates there's there's a lot of uh people that
[27:42]are under you know a lot of scrutiny and I think it's important to say he's not broken the law and you've said that he hasn't done we've established you know we're not saying that he himself but it was his >> but he might have broken the lord's code
[27:54]of conduct which would require him to be >> suspended that will be for the for the lord's authorities to to to have a look at all I can say is he hasn't done you know things like other people have done
[28:04]like dodgy PPE and things like that and you know sort of done he hasn't I think really really clear he's not broken any rules or you know done anything like like that. But you know as I say for
[28:14]Peter if he's serious about having sympathy for those victims I would really like to see him to reach out to
[28:23]you know the the lawyers of the victims some of the victims and and and talk to them because his knowledge and we're not saying he is he's done anything wrong but his knowledge could really help them. >> Richard would the victims welcome that.
[28:35]>> Oh yes certainly. I mean anyone who can who can speak up and provide evidence. The other one who personally knows absolutely everything is Gain Maxwell as well. Of course, >> Richard Sanders, Ian Dunt, and Aisha Hazerica. Thank you all very much for
[28:47]joining us. That is it for this episode of the forecast. Until next time, goodbye.