[0:03]Hi everybody. I'm Britney Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes. Joining me once again is Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz. Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining me. >> Thanks for having me as always, Britney.
[0:14]>> I want to pick your brain on something that you did this week. You looked through the unredacted Epstein files. Walk us through that experience. What was it like? >> I did. Um,
[0:26]unfortunately the uh the transparency law that we passed to require the unredacted version of the Epstein files to be public was violated by the Trump
[0:37]administration because when you know the files were released and under that law um there were thousands and thousands of
[0:47]redactions. Uh now had there just been redactions of the names of victims as the law required then that would have been one thing but it was very clear that there's there was far more than
[0:59]that and so we have an opportunity at the department of justice to go and un look at the unredacted version and what I saw Britney was incredibly disturbing.
[1:09]Um there were not only government lawyers who were involved in the uh the negotiation of the sweetheart deal that
[1:18]Epstein got whose names were redacted illegally. Um, but also I saw the names of individuals like a hedge fund, a
[1:27]billionaire hedge fund manager who was implicated in the likelihood that he knew uh about Jeffrey Epstein's crimes,
[1:38]traveled to Jeffrey Epstein's island, was on his plane, and it clearly indicated that uh that that he had that information. Why wasn't he interviewed?
[1:49]Why isn't the FBI investigating him? These are things that absolutely should occur so that the that the Epstein survivors can get a measure of justice.
[2:00]There was another name redacted that was of a private investigator who was accused of going into Jeffrey Epstein's
[2:08]home to remove items to hide his crimes and and he his name was redacted. Why isn't he being investigated? Why hasn't he been brought before the oversight
[2:18]committee to uh to testify about what he knew? So, I mean, that just scratches the surface and it's all incredibly disturbing, unlawful, and I'm going to just continue to fight for the trans the
[2:30]full transparency that the public and the surviv that the survivors deserve. >> Those types of names weren't supposed to be redacted. So, the next question is
[2:39]obviously why were they redacted, right? Has the DOJ said anything? because there's millions and millions of documents and I can I'm sure there's probably a mistake or two on redactions,
[2:50]but you think that this is a cover up, right? >> Oh, there's no question. I mean, there's just too many names for it not to be a cover up. I mean, when I was looking through the files, uh there were
[3:01]government lawyers who were discussing their concern over the possibility that Gain Maxwell was going to get a pardon
[3:10]in 2020. I I mean, why would And these were lawyers that were concerned and seemed in the correspondence not not to want to get her uh to to have her get a
[3:20]pardon. Um there was another another uh name another series of names that were redacted that shouldn't have been where
[3:30]they were discussing something uh that was unethical and suggested that the email should be deleted and those names
[3:41]were uh redacted. Um it it's just it's certainly possible that uh and even likely that some of the names were accidentally redacted but there are
[3:51]thousands of redactions and I mean just just by example the number of times that government lawyers involved in the negotiation over the sweetheart deal
[4:01]that Jeffrey Epstein got were whose names were redacted. None of them should be redacted ever and uh and and they were redacted counsel countless times.
[4:12]What's the DOJ's excuse for why there were all these redactions then? What have they said to you? >> They haven't really said much of anything. I I mean it it it's not clear. It it shouldn't even be that we have to
[4:24]go down as members of Congress, the Department of Justice sit in only four in front of only four computers for limited periods of time to be able to review the files. The name should all be
[4:35]redacted. Uh that they shouldn't they they shouldn't be hidden. And it's uh I mean the name should all be uncovered. They shouldn't be be hidden. And they're only being hidden to protect guilty
[4:47]people who absolutely should be investigated who could potentially should potentially be prosecuted and should certainly be some of them be brought in front of the oversight committee and the judiciary committee.
[4:58]Uh now what I've done because we have to continue to fight here for full transparency and also for accountability is I've I've introduced legislation called the No Escaping Justice Act. That
[5:10]legislation would a make sure that foreign uh foreign perpetrators uh that committed the crimes that Jeffrey
[5:20]Epstein helped propagate would lose their visa privileges in the to enter the United States and their assets would be frozen in the in the United in the
[5:30]United States banks as well because uh there there's no way that we should be allowing people who have committed these kinds of heinous crimes into the United States and they certainly certainly shouldn't have access to their assets
[5:41]and should be under full investigation and held accountable. >> If these names are illegally redacted, if you're saying this is a cover up for the rich and the powerful, can you share
[5:51]who these names are? >> I mean, for now, I'd prefer to just describe um who they are and you know, I mean, you can the some the name the two
[6:02]the two instances that I just named both of both of them have had their names publicly described. Um, so it it it's certainly not difficult to figure out who I'm talking about, but for now I'll
[6:13]just describe them and uh and you know, I'll I'm going to continue to pursue uh reviewing the files so I can get to the bottom of more individuals who
[6:24]definitely uh or at least at least allegedly uh seem to have been directly involved in either helping Jeffrey Epstein commit his crimes or were very aware of them and did nothing and make
[6:36]sure that we can uh we can helped get uh some justice brought to bear for these victims. >> I keep coming back to this point, but I'm really curious how these names got
[6:46]redacted. I mean, who gave the order to redact them? >> I mean, the the the the trail leads right to Pam Bondi. Pam Bondi has the absolute ability and the requirement
[6:56]under the law to have released all of the files with only the names of victims redacted and no one else. And there are
[7:05]thousands of hidden names. And it's clear to me that they are hiding those names almost in in almost all cases to
[7:14]protect guilty people to make it to put obstacles in the path of the possibility of having these people who committed heinous crimes against minors or were
[7:26]aware of and you know look the other way uh of heinous crimes committed against minors and allow them to get away with it. If someone's illegally redacting names
[7:37]from these files, what kind of trouble can they get into? Could they receive jail time over that? I mean, what does that punishment look like? I I I'm not I'm not entirely sure what
[7:48]the what the penalties are uh in the law, but um I I will tell you that, you know, because included in the redactions
[7:57]alongside that, you have several very serious files that have deeply serious accusations from a 13-year-old against
[8:06]Donald Trump himself. And until today, those files weren't even available and weren't released in in the uh in the file in the file release that was
[8:16]required by the law. So that they they have been now and uh you know what it's going to be incredibly important to try to follow up with the uh obviously now
[8:27]not no longer a minor individual to get to the bottom of you know credibility and uh and the possibility that Donald Trump committed the crime that she's she
[8:38]accused him of. >> I hear you when you say you want to just describe who these people are. Not name their names but are they household names? Would people know who these
[8:48]people are? >> Um, they are people who have been named in the news in the in the past. Uh, again, one is a hedge fund billionaire
[8:59]and who flew on Jeffrey Epstein's plane who spent time with him on his island. and the other is a private investigator who was accused of removing documents
[9:10]and items from Jeffrey Epstein's home um ostensibly um at least allegedly to hide help him hide his crimes. >> You and I have talked before about that
[9:20]2008 sweetheart deal that Jeffrey Epstein got. And just to remind our viewers, Alex Aosta at the time he was serving as US attorney for the Southern District of Florida. He cut a deal with Jeffrey Epstein that allowed him to
[9:32]dodge serious federal charges. The deal also granted him federal immunity along with four other women who were named as accompllices and arguably one of the most controversial parts of this deal.
[9:43]Um it also granted federal immunity to any potential co-conspirators. What did you find out about this deal when reviewing the unredacted files?
[9:52]>> Well, Alex Aosta's name him himself was redacted in in those files. Uh I saw numerous instances in which he and his
[10:02]uh US attorneys that worked on the case. Their names were redacted. There were co-conspirators uh that were named in the sweetheart deal that also whose
[10:12]names were also redacted. So not victims but co-conspirators. Um and you know there was a lot of chatter and discussion and emails back and forth. Um
[10:22]if if the purpose of the law that required the the release of all the files uh with only the names of victims
[10:32]redacted was so that we could have full transparency and gets to the bottom of what happened and look at the examine this sweetheart deal and I have
[10:42]legislation as you know and we've talked about it the Courtney Wild legislation that would make sure that the crime victim's rights act fully applies in cases where you where you would prohibit
[10:54]sweetheart deals from preventing victims uh prohibit sweetheart deals and ensure that victims have the ability to go to court and know about the proposed plea
[11:04]deal and be able to object to it like crime victims are able to under the crime victim's rights act that that was not afforded to these victims. They never knew that this sweetheart deal was
[11:16]cut and that he was going to get just get a slap on the wrist and they've been fighting ever since and I continue to fight alongside them to make sure that uh that that kind of justice can happen. >> You told me the last time that we spoke
[11:27]that the DOJ was making this process really restrictive. It was very clunky. You only had four or so computers to look at these files on. Was that the case? >> Yes. You have to go all the way down to
[11:39]a Department of Justice building, uh, you know, up several floors to a small room. You're escorted by staff. There are only four computer terminals, so only four members can review those files
[11:50]at a time. You have to make an appointment. Um, you know, there's limited period of time that you're able to to be at the at the computer. the system itself um has a lot of keystrokes
[12:02]that you have to go through to be able to unredact the name and you know it it actually kicks it didn't happen to me but several colleagues of mine who were
[12:12]there uh got kicked out of the system or having computer glitchy problems so it's um it's a preposterous outrageous process that they've established that
[12:23]that the law doesn't allow I mean the files should just the available searchable there is a searchable database but there is so much darkened
[12:34]including the content of emails that shouldn't be darkened either there were instances while I where I was searching for specific documents and found emails
[12:44]when not only the names that should not have been redacted were darkened but I could not unredact the names or the content of the email that I was looking
[12:55]for that I was trying to And I asked why and they said they would, you know, take it back, take the document number back and try to get me the information. Um, you know, hopefully they'll follow up, but I had other
[13:06]colleagues tell me that that had happened to them be as they've been searching and the DOJ never gets back to them. >> The word in this conversation that's come up a few times is cover up. That
[13:17]came up in our last conversation as well. You're saying this runs up all the way to Attorney General Pam Bondi. What question would you ask her if she was sitting across from you right now? >> Well, she's going to be sitting across
[13:28]from my colleagues on the oversight committee where a bipartisan vote to subpoena her uh was adopted by the committee rightfully so. Um I mean the
[13:37]questions that I would ask her include I want to know the details of how this sweetheart deal was decided upon. The names should be unredacted as to who was
[13:49]responsible for them. the timeline and and how it is that that that that that sweetheart deal that resulted in a slap on the wrist for Jeffrey Epstein uh was
[13:58]uh was allowed. Um there were some very concerning exchanges that I that that I saw with redacted names that I was able to unredact that um had individuals
[14:09]involved in the discussions really cruy speaking about the victims. Um, so this whole thing was a rotting pile of of
[14:20]sewer trash and uh and Pam Bondi uh who is now the head of the DOJ uh needs to answer for why she is violating the law
[14:31]and has been obfiscating the ability to be able to get to the bottom of questions like that. Like you and I talk about every time, at the heart of this is a sex trafficking
[14:43]network that really expands around the globe. What you're saying is really concerning stuff. I mean, what was the most concerning thing to you that you saw in this unredacted in these
[14:54]unredacted files? >> The most concerning thing was the clear effort to hide who was responsible for
[15:05]some of the most serious parts of the coverup. um like the like the document that I saw that uh that had the private
[15:13]investigator's name who seems to have been trying to assist with the cover up so that Jeffrey Espine wouldn't be able to be held accountable. This is all
[15:23]alleged, but that's the problem is that, you know, they've hidden this for so long and prevented the information from getting out. And now, Pam Bondi, it's another question that I um I'm sure will
[15:34]be asked of her is uh why have you been hiding all of this and covering up for Jeffrey Epstein and his crimes and for people who covered up his crimes and allowed him to get away for so many
[15:46]years with sexual abuse and trafficking of young women. And there's over a thousand women who deserve justice. And
[15:56]I mean, shame on Pam Bondi uh as a woman leader and the highest ranking law enforcement officer in the country for not being a champion of these of these
[16:06]survivors instead of continuing to victimize them. >> Some people we've seen around the globe have faced consequences over their ties to Epstein. Some have not. Do you think
[16:16]that we're any closer to revealing really the extent of Epstein's criminal network? Well, I mean there's millions of files and you know there are many individuals
[16:27]going through them. It has begun to be revealed the extent of some people who are foreign um foreign citizens and
[16:36]their involvement. And it it's appalling to me that there are leaders in other countries who are holding their uh their individuals who have been discovered to
[16:47]have really wildly inappropriate relationships with Jeffrey Epstein even after he served in prison. Um I mean, excuse me, he really served jail time in the evenings and was allowed under the
[16:58]sweetheart deal to go to work every day. Um that they continued their relationships with him. Um but that the Justice Department under Pam Bondi and Donald Trump um are refusing and have
[17:10]shut everything down or saying no one else is going to be investigated. Uh that that's revoling. uh the message that that sends not only to the survivors but to you know other criminal
[17:20]elements uh who are engaged and human and sexual trafficking Britney is a really huge scourge uh that that is very widespread in the United States and around the world and you know allowing
[17:32]it to continue and not making a very significant example of the perpetrators of these crimes is uh is an outrage and uh and and allows millions of other
[17:43]young women and and young and young and frankly to be victims again be victims in the future because this is sends a strong message. The the the government of the United States of America to the
[17:54]highest office in the land, the president of the United States has no regard for the the fact that over a thousand young women were victimized and
[18:05]and sexually assaulted through a network run by Jeffrey Epstein. Um a close friend of the president of the United States. Um, and there is a there is a
[18:15]way to open these investigations and allow for account accountability, but they're refusing because it's obvious that they are trying to cover up where
[18:25]this might actually lead. >> I do not want to totally switch gears and just pick your brain a little bit on some breaking news from yesterday, and that is that Christy Gnome was
[18:36]officially fired from her position as DHS secretary. She's out after a controversial tenure. What do you make of that firing? >> Well, it's about time, long overdue. She
[18:47]never should have become the Secretary of Homeland Security in the first place. Uh she was wholly unqualified for the job. Uh that is one of the largest agencies in in the federal government.
[18:58]Um she abused her power. Uh she was responsible for revoking the temporary protective status of Venezuelans,
[19:06]Haitians, uh the protective status of uh folks from Ukraine who are here. Um
[19:15]this is someone who spent $600,000 building a immigration detention center in the middle of the Everglades. um a a
[19:25]heinous place that uh that that abusive practices have uh have been committed against undocumented immigrants. Someone who said uh like Donald Trump that they
[19:36]were going to go after the worst of the worst criminals but presided over the murder uh and then called them domestic terrorists of two people who were doing nothing more than you know exercising their first amendment rights in
[19:47]Minnesota. Um she is part of the a large part of the reason she and Donald Trump are the the reason that ICE is out of control and needs to be reigned in. And it's good that she's gone.
[19:59]Unfortunately, her successor is likely to just continue Donald Trump's, you know, really heinous abusive practices. Um I I I hope for progress, but I am not optimistic.
[20:10]>> Her successor is Senator Mark Wayne Mullen. He served in Congress, so he was your colleague at a time. You're not too confident is what you sounded like. Why not talk to us about that pick?
[20:21]>> Well, I I have a a good relationship with Mark Wayne Mullen and but unfortunately what I've seen so far um during Donald Trump's second term is
[20:31]that he really has just fallen in lock step with uh the president's agenda and appears that he's as a senator been really willing to do his bidding. And I
[20:43]I can't imagine Donald Trump would uh bring on anyone as the Secretary of DHS that wouldn't uh be willing to continue to to just fall in line. Um I'm I'm I'm
[20:54]happy to be surprised, but um from what I've seen out of Senator Mullen, he has uh pretty clearly walked in lock step with Donald Trump and uh and not pushed
[21:04]back on the heinous abusive practices of ICE. Look, all we have to do with ICE is follow the law and the Constitution. I mean, and and maybe keep your word. Go
[21:15]after the worst of the worst. I, as I've told you, every interview we've done on this topic. I am absolutely supportive of deporting criminals. If you've committed a crime in the United States and you've abused the privilege of being
[21:26]here or you're an undocumented immigrant and you were trying to find some kind of lawful pathway to be here, then bye-bye. Um, but there were the DHS's own
[21:36]statistics show that only 14% of those that have been detained and deported had any kind of a criminal record. Uh, I mean that that has to change. Um, it
[21:46]also has to be that ICE takes the mask off. You should you have the right to face your accuser in the United States, wears identification, you know,
[21:56]engages in due process, seeks judicial warrants. You can't just expect that someone's going to barrel your door down in the United States. We have a we have a prohibition against illegal search and
[22:08]seizure. That applies to everyone, not just citizens. Um, and you know, they need to uh they need to compromise with uh and work with us as Democrats and
[22:19]Republicans to get DHS reopened and make sure that ICE is brought under control and under the law. >> Congresswoman, I really appreciate the time today. I appreciate your
[22:30]perspective. Thank you so much for joining me and until next time. >> Thanks a lot. Great to be with you. Great. Thank you. Take care.