[0:03]Today's date is Thursday, July 24th. This will be the recording of a proper agreement of Gilain Maxwell
[0:14]from the deputy attorney general DOJ and the time is currently 9:16. Maxwell and councel are arriving to the
[0:26]US attorney's office and we will commence the profer shortly. >> I'm gonna ask everybody to put their name on the record of course. >> Good morning. My name is Assistant
[0:40]Special Agent in charge Spencer Horn of FBI New York. Today we're doing a proper of Ms. Maxwell. The date is July 24th
[0:50]and the time is 10:12 a.m. This interview is being recorded. [Applause]
[1:01]And my name is Todd Blanch. I'm the deputy attorney general. And um before we start formally asking questions of Miss Maxwell, I'm going to put on the
[1:12]record everybody that's in this room in addition to me. Um, starting with you, Diego. >> Diego Pastana, associate deputy attorney general.
[1:22]>> And then you heard from special agent um in charge Horn. Um, Mark Beard from the United States Marshall Services is here as well. Um, and then David.
[1:32]>> Yes, this is David Oscar Marcus and I'm uh council for Ghislaine Maxwell. >> My name is Theo Safian and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell. My name is Melissa
[1:44]Maxwell and I'm council for Genan Maxwell. Go >> ahead. >> And I'm I'm Gilen Maxwell. >> Good morning, Miss Maxwell. How are you?
[1:54]>> Good morning, Mr. Black. >> Good. Um, okay. So, before we started recording, we met for a few minutes. I introduced myself and we we chatted and now I told you that we were going on the
[2:05]record. And before we start asking questions, I know that you've been given by your lawyer um a copy of a what's called a profer
[2:15]agreement. And I just want to spend two minutes making sure that you understand um what what governs our conversation today. The most important part of this
[2:26]agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement. Meaning that by you meeting with us today, we're really just meeting. I'm not promising to do anything. Um I'm not promising to ask
[2:37]Judge Nathan or any of the judges that's been assigned to your case to do anything. Um it we're just talking and so that's the most important important
[2:46]part of of this agreement. Um however, almost as important is the fact that um what this agreement does for you is it gives you protection. So what it means
[2:57]is that the government cannot use what you say today against you. um with some exceptions which we'll talk about in a minute. But whatever you talk about today, you have what's called immunity.
[3:09]So that means that the words that you say today, we cannot use against you in a case and chief if we were ever to bring one. Okay. >> Thank you. >> Um there's exceptions to that. The most
[3:20]meaningful one of which is that if you say something today that's not true, that's a lie, um we can bring a prosecution against you for what's called um false statements. So, um I'm a
[3:31]federal officer. Um I have several officers here. Um the FBI is here and if if you lie to someone that's a like me or like um Special Agent Horn, um it's a
[3:41]crime. So, you have to be truthful. The other exception to this that doesn't necessarily apply directly to you, but if there ever was a retrial in your case
[3:51]or if there ever was a a criminal case, a future criminal case against you and your lawyer or you said something
[4:01]different or took a position that's different than what you say today, um, we can then cross-examine you or witness based upon what you say today. So, it's
[4:12]a little bit nuanced, meaning I can't use what you say against you in our case and chief. However, if you were to testify or if your lawyer called a
[4:22]witness to testify and they said something that is totally different than what you say today, we could then cross-examine you or the witness and say, "Hey, do you remember when we met with Miss Wax? When we met with Miss
[4:33]Maxwell back in July of 2025, she told us." And then say what she said. Okay. >> I am skinny. >> Okay. Um, other than that, you I know you didn't have a lot of time this
[4:45]morning to meet with with um with Mr. Marcus, but did did you have a chance to go over this briefly with him? >> Um, I did. >> Okay. All right. So, I've already signed it as has special agent um Horn
[4:57]>> and Mr. Marcus signed it as well. So, you got a pen. Please sign it right where it says client. Yep. >> And I will provide a copy of this to to your lawyer so you guys have it.
[5:08]>> Okay. Thank you. So, Miss Maxwell, um about a week and a half ago or two weeks ago, um
[5:19]you see the light blinking on there on the Sony? >> Yeah, there it is. Okay. We're just
[5:30]confirming that it works and it does. Miss Maxwell, I guess about a week and a half or two weeks ago, uh Mr. Marcus reached out to me and said that that you
[5:40]wanted to speak with somebody from the government about not only your case but about um everything that's been in the media and that's been publicized about
[5:51]Mr. Epstein in your case. Did he >> that is true and I did speak to him and I did uh ask him if they did tell him
[6:00]that I would very keen to um talk to anyone because No one from the government at any time ever in the since the inception of the case, so dating
[6:11]back to the um early 2000s, has ever spoken to me and indeed uh I believe ever reached out to me at any time to
[6:21]even speak to me. And that includes up to when I was um indicted and prosecuted. Um I
[6:30]believe that or I understand I should say rather that um my attorneys at the time did tell the government that I wanted to
[6:40]speak to them because I was very keen to meet with anyone so that I could tell or have them ask me any question. had never
[6:50]had any problem um to to speak to anybody and I offered myself and I kept asking if they would meet with me so I could talk to them and um for whatever
[7:02]reason that was not happening. >> Okay. Um I have questions that I want to ask you but I'm not um if there's a path
[7:12]that a question that I'm not asking that you think should be asked I invite you to volunteer. And same thing goes to your lawyers. Um, just to start a little
[7:21]bit very briefly, um, can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epste? I know that goes back a while. And just very
[7:33]generally talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein from the time you met him all the way up until um until his death.
[7:42]>> Um, I uh met Mr. Epstein in 1991. uh my uh I I'd never heard of him or met him
[7:56]before and um no one in my family had ever either. Um my father never knew him and I'll explain why that is the case. Um I met
[8:06]>> Where did you where did you meet him? >> Um I had a girlfriend who I I was Yeah.
[8:14]I'd moved to America briefly in uh well I'd moved to America in 1990. >> Okay.
[8:24]>> Um I well moved was a good word. I'd come to visit America in 1990. I had been um running my own company up until
[8:34]that time which was a company called Max Corporate Gifts and um I had also been working for my father at the time. I've had multiple jobs with him where I was
[8:46]um in 1990 I was working with um a a new company of his, a new a new newspaper that he was
[8:56]launching called the European and I was uh in charge of launching a um magazine
[9:03]to go with the the European and I was traveling at that time um from England to America.
[9:13]Uh because uh my father was looking to uh well he'd also bought McMillan the
[9:22]the publishing house and he had purchased the New York Daily News and um it's true to say that my father always
[9:34]wanted me to come back full-time and work with him but that's a much longer story I don't think we need to go into at this time. So uh but I was always working with anyone. There was no
[9:45]escaping if it were as it were to to work for him. So in 1990 um I had come over to New York uh
[9:55]to help look at some of that. He was having some advertising issues with the New York Daily News. And in fact um I met I may have met Donald Trump at that
[10:06]time because my father was friendly with him and um liked him very much and I think should be said that he also very much liked um
[10:17]Ivana because she was also from Czecha Slovakia where my dad was from. So, uh, I don't I don't remember if I did meet him or not in 1990 with my dad, but I
[10:28]knew that that's how I knew about, uh, Mr. Trump. >> And this was before you met >> this was before I met. >> So, I was already going backwards and
[10:38]forwards in America. And then in um, April of 1991, I came to New York.
[10:49]uh I can't remember for what reason, what business reason, but there was a business something to do with my dad at that time and a girlfriend of mine uh who an American
[11:00]uh told me I I I broken up with my long I've been engaged getting with a very long time boyfriend and we've broken up and she
[11:11]says I got you know some girlfriends do I got a guy for you to meet and like who is it and she goes um it's he's been dating meeting my sister. I love him. He's looking for a wife. I'm edging
[11:23]towards 30. I don't need to tell you guys. That's a very important moment for a girl to like think about important things. And I sure was really happy to
[11:31]meet him. And um so sometime in 1991, now we're in 1991. Um, I met him at his
[11:41]offices in uh on Madison and um I think the most memorable thing I can think about that is he was wearing a tie which he didn't often give. It had a
[11:53]giant tomato ketchup thing on it. So I was like, "Wow." Okay. Um and that was how we met. Was your meeting at his office
[12:04]for you to meet him just personally or were you were you there for >> I was just >> work related reasons? >> No. Well, I I knew nothing about him. I
[12:13]he just invited me to come and have tea and I was like tea that's English. Okay. But what was unusual was in his offices. So I went to his offices and we met and
[12:24]I found him very engaging and um that was that. >> So okay. So that's how you meet him. So we and again I don't want to spend a lot
[12:33]of time you know on on this particular issue but what happened with your relationship over the years from the
[12:42]time you meet him in 1991 um up until the time he he passed away just give the highlights. >> Okay. So um uh
[12:53]I was looking for real estate for my dad to buy some and Epstein told me that he was also looking to move from his apartment and would I help him and I I said sure I'm looking already so I could
[13:04]look for him. So that's how it started and then in 1991 my father passed away and I returned to New York after that originally to come back and help with
[13:15]the family businesses which was um and then the tobacco of my father's passing hit
[13:25]the family and um oh and we lost all our businesses and my family thought that it would be best if I stayed in America because of the
[13:37]intensity of the press and the drama surrounding my father's death in England. So, I stayed and um Epstein said, "Well, you can keep helping me.
[13:49]You can help me find the house and you can decorate the house and it gave me something to do." >> Were you in um a romantic relationship with him at this point or just friends?
[14:00]>> Just friends. And while we're just with respect to your father, there have been um multiple questions about whether he worked for
[14:11]any intelligence agency. Do you have any knowledge about that? >> Um I think most certainly my father had background in intelligence because he
[14:22]was uh I believe he did in the Second World War. he was an intellig a British intelligence officer. Um I think that my
[14:33]sort of belief is that once you've been an intelligence officer, you're kind of always it doesn't mean that you're formally employed. So I don't think my
[14:40]dad in any formal sense was a you know employed by the any agency but when you um are a very
[14:51]significant businessman and politician as my father was you meet with people all the time
[15:00]and you I guess trade business or ideas. I think if if that would fall under that definition, that's how I would think it.
[15:09]Now, he certainly um I have no formal knowledge of anything specifically that he did in that thing. But if you're asking me if I thought that he did help
[15:20]people, the answer would be yes, I did. >> Did your father and Mr. Epstein have a business relationship over the years? I know we're maybe jumping around a little bit tonight. >> They never met. So,
[15:30]>> as far as you know, they never even met. >> No, I I >> You know, they never met. No, they never met. >> Well, how do you know they never met? >> Just categorically know they never met.
[15:39]Well, because after um in 1991 before my father died, um he asked me uh if I'd met anybody interesting or whatever, you
[15:49]know, cuz I was still trying not to be sucked back into the family business. And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein. And the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Extin because um I
[16:00]believed at that time that exit worked for bests and bests was one of our banks and I knew that my father was friendly with both Jimmy Kaine and with Ace
[16:11]Greenberg. So my dad came was actually in New York I think if I'm I may I don't think I had this conversation on the phone but I I honestly we're talking 30 years ago so
[16:23]I'm not sure but um if I I maybe I told him this verbatim because I have I know that what my dad did whether I saw it or
[16:32]whether I he did it and told me later I that I don't remember but um he called both Jimmy Kaine and Ace Greenberg to
[16:42]bargif what sort of guy he was and was he even allowed to because um so uh >> so they never they never met
[16:53]>> he didn't even know >> but they had they they knew some of the same people it sounds like or certainly the Bear Sterns connection was something that that you that you knew that they had >> no well he never had a connection with
[17:04]Epstein he had a connection with the bank I mean I'd never heard of him knew of him before and I certainly if my dad had known him, right? When I said this is who he was, he didn't know who he
[17:15]was. So, he rang Ace and he rang Jimmy to ask if it was okay that I even knew him. And I just want to explain
[17:24]um briefly why my father would even um do such a thing. Sorry.
[17:42]Um, I've had um some interesting things that have happened in my life and uh one of them was to be uh
[17:53]found on a IRA kidnap and murder list. And so after that happened, well, there
[18:03]were other related I'm not going to bore you with all the horrible things in that vein, but if you want the details, of course,
[18:12]I can. But um after that happened, my father wanted to put a lot of protection on obviously.
[18:22]And um I declined on the grounds that that would be a very life restricting event. You're all in law enforcement. I know you understand
[18:32]this. And um so he had told me that I you know God would be taking my life in my own hands and whatever. And so I
[18:44]think after that event and several others where I had stalkers and all that thing at one house, he was always quite protective. And so if I met somebody, he
[18:53]would try and um verify that they weren't going to do anything hideous. And so in case you thought it was weird that he
[19:03]would call Jimmy an ace, it might you may think it is, but in my from my perspective, he was just because he was
[19:11]concerned I was in America alone and he had an opportunity to verify who this person was. And so I don't know if I was in the room with him. I don't recall. But I know that at some point my father
[19:23]told me, "He's fine. You can see him." >> Yeah. >> He's safe. >> Okay. >> Well, okay. So, we might come back and touch a little bit more on that at some point, but >> yeah,
[19:35]>> I went down a rabbit hole for a minute. >> That's right. I just wanted to No, that's helpful. Thank you. So, okay. So, you're you're now in the '9s and you're friends with Mr. Epstein, your house,
[19:46]decorating the house or the apartment. Um, what what happens with your relationship? Again, I know we're talking about a 35 year time period or whatever, but to the extent you can kind
[19:57]of at a very high level talk about it. >> Listen, I think just full disclosure is the best way to go at this point. >> Yeah. >> So, in 1992,
[20:06]um I slept with him one time and I was like, whoa, that's it. We're going to be dating. Cuz that's how I thought. And um
[20:16]and I kind of thought of myself in that moment like because if you I felt if you slept with someone you were then dating them. That's the world I came
[20:27]from. Um but that really was well that's how it worked and but we didn't sleep together again for I don't know really a significant period of time. when I say
[20:37]>> years or >> um I don't know if it was a year. I don't I feel that feels long but maybe 9 months.
[20:49]I mean a long time. Okay. Um I just want to go back. So, uh, I had found, um, a house for him to rent in New York cuz he
[20:59]had asked me. I've been looking for my father and I found one, which was, um, a former Iranian embassy, I think it was. I think it belonged to the Iranians or
[21:09]the Iraqis, someone. And, um, I didn't know that he had any money really. And it was like, I want to say it was $12,000 a month, which to me
[21:20]seemed like fortune. And I said to myself, I found this house, but I don't think you can afford it. And he was like, ridiculous. Of course, I can afford it. We rented it. And that house came with it was a state department
[21:32]house because it was I think it was under seisation or whatever it was. And I put it back together, but there was like rules. He couldn't paint because he had to go back and gave it back to the
[21:42]country then. So he had this house and I had um moved into a 10t by 10t apartment because all
[21:53]of our stuff had been either lost or frozen or whatever. So he became in this moment my life really
[22:04]because I was like everything was it felt very similar to this moment if that makes any sense. Anyway, so but I had no
[22:13]key to his house. I had no free access to his house. And in the entire time that he lived there, which is I believe until um the beginning of 1996, I never
[22:24]slept a single night in that house with ever. Not. But you so you said a minute ago that the first that you had um slept
[22:36]with him on one occasion and at the time you remember thinking you know that this meant you were in a relationship but then it didn't you really were not in that type of relationship. Did that
[22:46]change over between 91 and '92 or whatever and and and years forward? >> Um so >> I did travel with him. Okay. So I would
[22:57]go to his houses in Palm Beach. He only had that house actually on uh No, that's not true. He had the house in Palm Beach and he had a house in uh Ohio. >> In where? >> Ohio.
[23:09]>> Okay. >> And he had the house in Ohio because of um his business relationship with uh Mr. Wexner. And he had a and I had to go and
[23:20]decorate and put that house together. when we traveled together, we um stayed
[23:27]in the same bed, but not in but I didn't >> Go ahead. It's okay. Talk.
[23:38]So you you stayed So when you would travel with him to his houses in Palm Beach, Ohio, or even just traveling if if if it was just traveling with him,
[23:48]you would um stay in the same bed. So, sleep in the same bed with him. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Epstein told me that he had a um heart
[24:04]condition. >> A what? >> Heart condition. >> Heart. A heart condition. Okay. which um meant that he didn't have intercourse a lot
[24:16]which suited me fine because I actually do have a medical condition which precludes me having a lot of
[24:27]intercourse. >> So what what was your understanding of his heart condition and why that prevented him from having intercourse
[24:36]regularly? I don't know. I mean, he liked other forms of uh
[24:47]sexual act. >> Well, let's come back. We're going to obviously spend some time, a lot of time
[24:57]on the actual conduct he was accused of. So, we'll come back to that. So pick up where you where you were talking about
[25:06]you traveling around with him. He rented the New York um I former Iranian house. >> Iranian. There you go. Yeah.
[25:15]>> Until around 96. Um that time you I believe you said that he was basically your life like you were with him pretty regularly.
[25:24]>> Well I no. So I never was with him regularly. That is one of those misnomers. I mean, at the beginning, I did see more of him, but I worked in his office. So, I would go to the office and
[25:36]I would see him and I would count in my head when I would see him, I would count that I would that would be a day that I would see him. But I didn't I never ever
[25:45]stayed with him. I believe certainly until 93 or 94. What I didn't know was that I think he was still with his actual
[25:55]girlfriend who was uh Eva Anderson. He became either Dublin they had been together my understanding
[26:05]I think about 10 years I'm not sure but that's what I think 10 years and um I had understood from my girlfriend initially that they weren't together and
[26:16]um Epstein himself had told me that they were not together but I don't I don't think that was true in fact I know it's not true so they were still together up
[26:25]until I think 94 when at some In that period of time, Eva met Glenn Dubin and they got married I think in '94. I don't remember when they got
[26:35]married, but her um she was his best friend and his everything. He told me that he always wished that he
[26:46]had married her and had a child with her. And I know that they she was family for him for his whole life. And I think even I'm not sure this is true, but you
[26:56]guys will know if this is true or not. When he came from back from Paris and they arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the plane. Now, I think that
[27:05]either I read it in the in the discovery that I received or I saw it somewhere, but even if she wasn't on the plane, there must have been some email communication where she was in Paris at
[27:17]the same time and going to fly back one or the other. I don't know which one is the correct version of that but so they were still obviously very close and
[27:26]remained throughout the entire fact he was saw her and so I also know now which I didn't know at the time was that
[27:36]he saw lots of other women and I know that now because I can see I can see it from the flight logs and I know it now because
[27:47]I can see from the emails So, you know from the case that what happened? Yes, I did know that a long time. >> I contemporaneously I absolutely didn't know.
[27:56]>> So, okay. So, just and we're going to spend time on everything you're talking about, but just to kind of close out big picture your relationship. So, we're now
[28:06]in the late '9s. Um, continue on with again staying high level to the extent you can about your relationship with him. So after
[28:17]so my responsibilities increased with each acquisition that he and each new project. So um I believe the first thing
[28:27]that he purchased after was um the ranch in New Mexico.
[28:38]>> Okay. And so what he had tasked me with up until I think that was purchased in 94 if I'm right. So he had tasked me one of the things that we did was visit
[28:50]in my mind I say every state but it wouldn't have been every state but many states to go look at real estate property. And so I know we went to Montana I know we went to Utah and and
[29:00]it was it were to go look at real estate was fun to be honest. And then I arranged for us to go to New Mexico and
[29:08]he just loved New Mexico and then um I don't remember how the ranch happened. I don't remember that now it's lost and then he ended up buying the ranch and I
[29:18]think it came from one of the kings who may have been the governor you know bought the ranch and then
[29:27]I had to deal with that and dealing with that was extensive. I mean the way that I thought of myself or the way that I think is the best way to explain how I
[29:37]view my role was as a a general manager because each property to me was like a a hotel. So the ranch was very challenging
[29:47]because not only that but it had BLM land. So to maintain your BLM, you have to have um cattle and I'm love animals
[29:57]and so the first thing horses and so I wanted it if you're going to have a ranch I like authenticity and so I don't think you should have a ranch you're not
[30:07]going to have the things that make it special. >> So were you were you um paid by him along the way? So I I became I became
[30:17]salaried um >> at some point I I my memory is that I got paid 25,000 a year to begin with. That's my memory. and maybe one. And
[30:28]then with each as it became more obvious because I kept thinking I was going to go home home and but it
[30:38]>> did you and financially you were not relying on him the 25,000 or whatever amount you were paid. Were you relying on that money to live and his generosity
[30:49]to live or did you have your own um your own money? So there's a >> and again I I want to just make sure we're talking about like keeping it between like the late 90s, you know, maybe I guess into a little of the
[31:01]2000s. >> I just want to hit something on the head right now. There's a tremendous amount of reporting that said that I had a um trust fund. >> Thank you. A trust fund. I have never had a trust at any time.
[31:13]>> So how did you live? Did you live with with I mean 25,000 is not enough to live on. >> No. So I had during this period of time the secret secret uh the serious sports
[31:23]squad had come to see me in relation to my father's passing and to establish whether I had been involved in any way with his uh business or with any
[31:34]shenanigans. Um I think I've told the story many times so I don't know if it's now somewhat hypocritical but I'll tell you what my memory is. I received a letter from them
[31:45]that said go about my business and my memory maybe hip hop was a PS it said I used Snow White's cousin I had nothing there was no I was never involved in any
[31:57]of his business whatever so I was free >> were you so but your you know obviously your your father and your family had a
[32:07]lot of businesses um did is it because the money whatever money or whatever or equity was in the businesses just stayed with your other family members.
[32:18]>> No, there was no money. So, my father was never attached to money. Uh he was uh born a peasant,
[32:29]a real one, dirt floor, no shoes, no clothes, some clothes, but not, you know, sorry, I don't need to say um and nothing. And
[32:40]he never he was never into that. I mean there were things that he had his extravagances. He loved his boat and his plane. So obviously you need money for that but there was no nothing else. And
[32:52]there was not a single penny that came to any of us at any time ever. >> Okay. So So when you're talking about
[33:01]your life with Mr. Epstein in the '9s, um you you're you're not you're very different financially. You're very different financially positioned than he
[33:12]is. Meaning he's giving you money. He's paying for your when you fly, he I assume pays for your flights. >> Yes. >> Okay. Um Okay. So you you I interrupted you when
[33:23]you were saying how you were functioning as general manager. You helped with the New Mexico ranch. Um so did did your role with him continue like that for
[33:34]many years or for how long? So I continued um in 2000. Well in by 1999
[33:42]our relationship had founded in >> why >> I well two reasons. We were never sleeping together again. So we stopped
[33:54]having sexual relations in 1999. Not full sex. Sorry. Just to be clear. didn't mean that we didn't still share a
[34:05]bed bedroom sometimes or whatever. Um he had another girlfriend. >> He had what >> other girlfriends. Um, I definitively
[34:15]knew that it was over um after 9/11 actually because uh we were both in New York
[34:24]and I don't know were you in New York 91 I mean 911's um and it was a scary time if you were in New York you didn't know I didn't
[34:35]know what was going on and he was in 71st Street and I was uh in
[34:43]60th Street my house and um he wouldn't see me at all asked me his mom who I'm very
[34:54]close to who was in the hospital at Lennox Hill just asked me to look after her and then I knew as anyone did at that time if you're not going to be there for someone at 911 you're never going to be
[35:06]there so for me that was the language and he had um another English girlfriend actually from 2000.
[35:18]>> Are you though still on his are you still being paid by him at this point? >> Yes. >> Um Okay. So, so go ahead. So what what
[35:28]at that point when you say you realize kind of >> well I mean I'm talking about the the I had had there was a I wanted to get married and have children and um Epstein
[35:40]had encouraged me to believe that that would I don't know about the certainly by the mid late 90s I knew the marriage part
[35:51]was never going to happen. And I had believed that maybe in 96 97 98 maybe. But then I realized it wasn't that. But I did think that we might have a child
[36:01]which is what I had really wanted. Um and um I realized >> so so okay. So what happens between 2001
[36:13]and then 2019 with your relationship with him? >> So >> give or take 2001. So, we stopped having physicality. I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't friends. I certainly did stay
[36:25]sometimes in his room. I mean, friends with benefits, if you will, just not sex. Sorry, just
[36:34]um and I started dating. >> Okay. >> Um and I met someone that I fell very much in love with in 2003.
[36:45]Um his name was Ted W. Um Ted W as the founder of Gateway the computers.
[36:56]And we had an amazing relationship that ended in went on until
[37:04]um 2010 I think and I was with Ted from that time. >> Did you meet him through Mr. Epson? >> No. Well, indirectly I suppose you could
[37:15]say no, they never met. Um I was um at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't I was from President Clinton.
[37:30]President Clinton was my friend, not Epstein's friend. And um Epstein had flown him um and there was a dinner and Ke came to the dinner. So I guess indirectly
[37:41]through Mr. interesting because it was his plane, but I'd have been there anyway without him. I had was not >> Was Epstein on the plane when you guys flew
[37:49]>> on that trip? Yes. Oh, well, uh, yes. That Yes. >> So, when you say
[37:58]the the dinner was was where? >> Okay. And so then you had flown over with So, who was on the plane for that trip? >> I don't mean everybody when you said So,
[38:09]Mr. Epstein was on the plane. Yes. >> You were on the plane? >> Yes. >> Um, who else that you can remember? I'm not, you know, you only know what you remember. >> Was President Clinton on the plane?
[38:20]>> Clinton. Um, they would have he would have had his uh guy Doug Lance maybe Jason Cooper. Oh,
[38:32]>> and you and so why so so how did you meet? So, so why why do you say that's when you met him and that he met him through Clinton? >> Well, it was a I don't think Ted would
[38:43]have been there had it not been a it was a President Clinton dinner and Ted came to with President Clinton not to be with Mr. Epstein. Does that make sense? >> Yes. >> That's why I say that.
[38:54]>> Okay. So, you're you're So, in the time that you're dating that you're with him to 2009, um are you still working for Mr. Epstein during that time? So here's
[39:04]to um it'd be true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard he actually tried very hard to keep me to working for him because
[39:15]I mean this is a complex operator. I'm not talking about anything unto just the sheer size of the projects. I'm talking the construction projects, the houses,
[39:24]the staff. It's a it's a really significant job and I ran all the properties, the staff in the property, the
[39:36]management of the properties that and all the construction and we're talking tens of millions of dollars that I need to I can't remember what the budget was for
[39:47]construction on any given year. It's gone. But it it was these are very significant projects and so that was what I did and I managed the budgets.
[39:58]Well, not I didn't manage the budgets. I oversaw the budget. So I would just make sure that if you said you bought um an uh a air conditioning plant. I saw an air conditioning plant and I could call
[40:10]the island manager. Did you receive the carrier? Whatever. You know >> when did Mr. trips and purchased the
[40:20]island. >> I want to say 96 or 97, something like that. >> Okay. So, we're going to come back and spend more time on the money with m with
[40:31]respect to Mr. Epstein and and his wealth, but just so we can finish this. So, in 2009, you end your relationship with Ted
[40:40]>> 2009 2010. I can't remember if it was 10. I don't remember. >> So, in that time period, what happens next with as far as your relationship with Mr. Epstein? I don't have one with him.
[40:50]>> You don't have one of them. Like you don't see him or it's just a different relationship. >> I did see I maybe saw him once or twice, maybe even three times. I certainly went
[41:02]to his house once for sure, maybe twice, but I was not seeing him. The only time that I was in touch with him was when
[41:13]the things happened, like things I mean in the press that affected me or when the CB case was filed and there was all that
[41:23]rubbish that went out cuz I needed information cuz I didn't know I didn't know anything about what was happening and I needed his help.
[41:32]a to I I doesn't make it sound right. Rephrase that. I don't mean his help. I meant to have answers so that I had an ability to
[41:44]defend myself. That's what I'm talking. I'm not talking. >> When does that relationship change? So, so you're working, you talked about when your the physical relationship stopped
[41:54]and then you're still working for him or with him, managing his properties and being serving as like a general manager. You then start your own relationship with another individual from with Ted
[42:05]from 2003 till 2009 or 10. At what point in that whole period is there like more of a break where you're no longer acting as his job?
[42:14]>> I wanted to have a full break when I started dating Kevin and he was clever. Um I I I suppose it would be
[42:25]true to say that I sort of viewed Mr. At that point it's sort of family if you will like someone I could rely on and um I should have had more confidence in
[42:37]myself. I can see that now. But at the time given everything that had happened in my life. I thought that it would and I saw how he was with other people like
[42:47]Eva who seemed to be very comfortable saying that I thought this would be and he always said I was like family. So he worked hard to m maintain a relationship
[42:58]with me. He was generous with me. Um he never used to pay for instance which was very generous. Um he would um check in with my mom.
[43:12]He things that were meaningful to me in that time. Um, and then it may still not have worked, but that his his mother,
[43:22]uh, Paula, um, had been in a very serious car crash, and I, um, she had become sort of
[43:32]like a a surrogate mother for me, sort of because my mom wasn't there, I could I could look after her um, the way that
[43:41]I would have sorry >> the way that I would have liked to look after my own mom. So I became very close
[43:53]to his mother and um she had been in a car crash and in 2004 I believe it it may have been five I I
[44:04]don't recall exactly she took a her health took a serious decline and Epstein called me and asked me if I
[44:14]could look after her. um by looking after her. That meant um organizing her doctors, uh
[44:24]making sure she had new clothes, making sure our house was clean. >> Where was she? >> She lived in um in a retirement uh establishment in outside of Palm
[44:36]Beach, outside of it's West Palm. I wanted I was going to say something like the Golden Girls, but it's not called that. I just don't remember what it's called. But it was an old age. It was a
[44:47]retirement home, if you will. >> Todd, I don't know. We've been going for maybe about an hour now. Do you think is this a good time? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, we'll take a we'll take a break. Y >> All right. So, we're going to take a
[44:58]break. The time is 10:56. >> I I definitely witnessed a progression
[45:06]in Mr. Epstein's behavior and a a modification if you will where in in
[45:16]the past in the early '90s I don't remember traveling so much with other people or there be a masseuse or a yoga person but now he started to travel
[45:25]with more always a masseuse whereas in the past it wasn't always a masseuse or always an instructor there was now starting to be always an individual or a
[45:35]friend or whatever it's always a like maybe the word would be entourage. Um,
[45:46]but these were always people in their 20s, late 20s, early 30s, in my as my memory sees it, as I as
[45:57]I observed that time. and um he tasked me with finding a local
[46:07]masseuse for him in St. Thomas because sometimes even though I say he would always travel with an entourage sometimes he didn't and he wanted to have a massage locally. So I visited the
[46:18]m the spars that were local in St. Thomas in St. Thomas and in St. on and if I met someone a man or a woman actually because it was difficult to
[46:29]find somebody in St. Thomas it's not exactly you know so and I did find a couple of people who would come so that's how they came because also it was
[46:39]a it was a schle so if you had somebody who came it would be you'd have to you know boat ride and you you several
[46:49]hours it wasn't just a it's not like arriving with your massage table and stuff so there was that um so I did do that >> so did over the years um males also
[47:01]give massages to Mr. Yes, I did say I don't think at the beginning definitely and I would say towards sort of
[47:10]again late ' 90s I don't remember any men they were at the beginning I think in that towards the late ' 90s I cannot think of any men I only think of women
[47:20]>> did you um you talk about entourage flying right now we're talking about to the island um
[47:30]did you observe any sexual ual um I was going to say miscon but any sexual any sex at all whatsoever on the plane?
[47:40]>> Never on the plane. Never. >> Um was there a part of the plane that was closed off from others where Mr. Epstein could go and get a massage or
[47:52]what? >> Okay. So that's a that's a good question. So there were two planes. So you had the there was a Gulf Stream and that's open plan. So
[48:02]anything I mean there was a sofa that turned into a bed and he did sleep on that and then but in
[48:12]the Boeing which he flew on a lot there was his area could be closed off with a door and behind that door there would be there was a bedroom and an office so if
[48:23]that door was shut you wouldn't see it. But do you so if you never So but you never observed Mr. Epstein engaging in sex or getting a massage with somebody
[48:34]with where the masseuse was not clothed on the plane. >> Um I can't say that. I I might have. I definitely might have either both in the
[48:43]Gulf Stream or in the uh in the I'm sure I did, but it's not I can't >> That's fair. >> Okay. >> Um >> I'm I'm absolutely sure I did. I must
[48:55]have because you know he was so obsessed of someone rubbing his feet or just when you ask me about massages I just want to be clear I generally what what I think of that is somebody on a massage table
[49:06]>> but other people might think of it as something different you know you could have someone rubbing his feet or his shoulder I saw that all the time that I did but se that's separate from being on a massage table
[49:17]>> how again I know we're talking about a decade long period but during the period we're talking Um, in a 7-day week, how often would Mr.
[49:27]Aine get a massage? >> In the '9s, when we're talking, he would get one every day. I think as that time progressed, he would get one maybe twice
[49:39]a day. I do want to say that there was um maybe a reason that things
[49:50]altered or morphed or progressed. Um and um it is maybe part
[49:59]of the reason also that I he and I uh our relationship or however somebody wants to call it altered
[50:10]and um he he started doing testosterone and that altered his character
[50:20]and I believe that started in uh the late ' 90s. And um I believe that the FBI has his medical records and you may see that on
[50:31]his medical records. >> So you you you believe that he started taking testosterone in the '9s and when you say that altered his behavior, you're saying it wanted him made him get
[50:43]more massages or that was just one part of of of what changed about him? >> Well, he became more aggressive. >> Nice. And
[50:51]I think that he may be uh well now I'm just imagining that the the testosterone altered his
[51:02]desires or something. Does that >> And so so when given what you've said the past couple hours about his kind of progression or
[51:14]change, let's focus on that time period. the more towards the late 90s 96 97 8 you know to when you when you've said that
[51:23]he changed um did you know flat out that he was um
[51:31]having sex or otherwise um some sort of sexual conduct with massuses regularly >> flat out no I denied that I couldn't
[51:43]imagine that he would but I think looking back now that Um, I I I did not, but I started to suspect
[51:54]that he was not faithful. Seems ludicrous, but that's what I thought.
[52:01]>> But if look, if if if if he's flying from Palm Beach to to St. Thomas or if
[52:10]he's flying um all over the country to New Mexico or to New York um or even in Palm Beach and there's young women putting aside whether they're under the
[52:21]age of 18 or in their 20s um every day at the house multiple massuses multiple massages on some days um you're interacting with the massuses constantly
[52:32]um or maybe that's not right. Let me take back let me take back what I just said. Ignore that part. But you understand these getting massages every day, sometimes multiple times a day. The by the late 90s it's all women
[52:43]presumably. They're um some of them are new, but they're also repeat massuses. Um what did you I mean you you had to know at that point that there was
[52:55]something going on beyond just he really needed to get massaged. >> Very fair question. There's two things. The first is the person that he saw the most at that period of time was in her 40s
[53:05]>> and she was with him all the time and I'm like married as well. >> Yeah.
[53:16]and as I'm square and it never occurred well I don't believe it occurred to me at the time that with this woman he would be
[53:26]having relations and he was with her that was the person he had the most massages yoga and that with at that time in the '9s
[53:37]period. The second thing is that um was was uh he told me he didn't he had
[53:49]difficulty having an erection and I believed him. >> When you said he said that, you mean he regularly told you that? like you
[54:00]>> when I when I first because when I didn't have sex with him after the first time and it took so I asked him was it
[54:10]me and he told me it was him and I'd never up until this moment in my
[54:20]life I as I'm not stupid I'm very bright I've had an excellent education I traveled all over the world I had had boyfriends But
[54:30]I had never met or understood that somebody could be
[54:37]so uh would would lie to me about I could it never occurred to me. I didn't have a a frame of context within my life
[54:47]experience where somebody would be so um manipulative and devious with me. I just and plus I just didn't have I just and I
[54:59]was happy not to have sex because I have a condition that does doesn't lend itself to that. does um
[55:10]when you learned so fast forward just for a moment to the 20079 time period and he's arrested and charged and there's all kinds of press around his
[55:21]purported contact at that point did you at that point did you accept that that was true meaning did it make sense at that point when you were reading about
[55:33]um women who claimed that they had been abused even underage and at that point did you think to yourself, well, geez, that makes sense now that I think about it or no? >> First of all, I didn't that's I only
[55:44]read what was in the newspapers. I didn't have any other thing and I'm embarrassed to say I didn't I didn't believe it. >> Okay. >> Right. I mean, you you didn't believe
[55:55]that the accusations were true at the time. >> Yeah. Um, so let's >> and and sorry, I need to say even if
[56:04]they were true, I believe that he was duped and he didn't know that they were whatever was in the papers at that time, whether they said that they were 17 or I
[56:14]didn't, it didn't register because along with all of those, well, not in 2006, but later when the more salacious and other allegations
[56:26]came out, I knew were utterly false, which then just reinforced my belief that the rest was not true. >> Let me ask you a question about the age
[56:36]of of um the massuses over the years. Um, it I think in my mind there's a difference
[56:46]between you knowing or not knowing that a masseuse is under the age of 18 and coming to give a massage and you knowing
[56:56]that Mr. Epstein, you know, sexually abused the the underage person or made her strip or something like that. meaning um and I want to understand
[57:07]whether you believe that nobody that came to give massages none of the women were under 18 or that you
[57:17]you didn't focus on their age but you you were more focused on whether
[57:23]any underage woman um was abused by him. I think I think it's better to answer this
[57:33]question with corroborating evidence and then go back and explain so that I frame your your understanding of what I'm saying of the
[57:43]>> my understanding is that in 200 let's say 2008 they had interviewed 44 women let's say
[57:53]or around that number. Oh, you have to understand not a single one of those 44 women mentioned me in a single report.
[58:03]And it's not because go back. They didn't mention me in the report because they never met me. They never saw me and they never interacted
[58:15]with me. So to go back to your question, it's not that I thought one way or another. It's that I didn't see them. >> Okay. I see. Okay.
[58:27]>> Does that >> Yeah. Yeah. That that's that's helpful. So, >> and not and but when I say not one, not one single one of those reports talks about me. And I just want to clarify
[58:38]exactly because I'm obviously aware that one of those girls is was one of the witnesses in my trial, but specifically to use her own testimony so that you
[58:54]don't have to hear my point of view. It's better if it comes from her own words and that way there's no um
[59:03]second guessing whether what I'm saying herself said that recruited her
[59:11]brought her and trained her. Those are own words. >> Where was I getting this? >> Well that you were that you didn't know. I mean, I assume.
[59:22]>> Oh, yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. It's okay. It's good. >> I I really do have some >> slow cognition issues. Um the uh
[59:33]>> So, she says she testifies that it was that that recruited her and trained her and and not you.
[59:40]>> So, so wait. So then in her first FBI uh meeting, she reports seeing a woman
[59:49]with short dark hair at the house, which then is used as evidence that that
[59:56]person was myself. But the um maid lady that who helped keep the house, John's Allessie's wife,
[1:00:07]oh with an accent, I believe she says John Allessie's wife had short dark hair and an accent. I'm sorry, but I find and you can ask
[1:00:18]yourselves this. I mean, I've obviously modified my accent. I've been in America a long time, but I'm British. I've been brought up with a very strong British accent and I don't believe there's American on planet Earth that doesn't
[1:00:30]recognize this to be British or Australian maybe if you really don't know but it's not some random accent. Now the Hispanic maybe okay that was
[1:00:40]John's wife that she saw not me and I'd like to point out further how you potentially her own through her own words
[1:00:48]>> she identif >> so it's so just and look I want to I
[1:00:58]want to try to I think probably tomorrow we'll I want to talk more about kind of the evidence against you and and and how to address that. So that No, no, no.
[1:01:10]Don't apologize. That that's so that's helpful. But I don't I don't want you to be burdened. I want you to just tell the truth the best you can. So I don't want you to be burdened by what people said at trial or what you know the press says about you.
[1:01:22]>> I just thought it was illustrative when you asked question because it doesn't I did not >> I absolutely have no memory at any now I'm
[1:01:33]leaving separate to this obviously. So that's a separate story. I'm not going to pretend. Well, >> we'll we'll get to >> But but in the terms of the scheme or
[1:01:43]whatever, however you want to determine what you're calling that, >> I have no no memory, no active
[1:01:55]anything of having seen anybody that resembles a young child, let's call it what it is, at that house giving him a massage.
[1:02:06]at all. It's not even like I did this. It's an at all. And 44 people didn't see
[1:02:14]me or talk about me either, including >> Did Did um And when you say that house, >> Oh, sorry. Palm Beach.
[1:02:25]>> Yeah, I understand what you mean. And I does the same memory or lack thereof apply to on planes at at in New Mexico in New York and
[1:02:36]>> well with some other important caveats. Uh well on that um Bulin Jane in my trial was clearly underage clearly a child and I only saw
[1:02:48]her in Palm Beach and I only saw her with her mother. Um the other person who is clearly also
[1:02:57]uh not an adult or even close I believe I remember her now. Um that would be the only two or three whatever that is.
[1:03:07]>> So um did you ever know Mr. Epstein to communicate with um FBI agents either
[1:03:19]like intelligence FBI agents like as a source or just generally with FBI agents? >> No. >> Do you think if he had done that you would have known like he would have told you something like that? Like if I said
[1:03:31]to you um Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI, would you say that's crazy? No, he wasn't. Or maybe he was. I would he
[1:03:41]would have told me that anyway. >> Um, I have two answers for that. I think if he was for real,
[1:03:52]I think he would have bragged about it to me as a showoff cuz he could be a showoff. And if he wasn't, he might have
[1:04:03]dropped it like he was cool. And I don't think I don't remember him doing either. Now with again the caveat
[1:04:14]that in his before I met him finding money I think he may have suggested that there were some people who helped him but that's the only context that I
[1:04:25]recall that in. >> What do you mean by that when you said finding money? What do you mean? Well, his business where he remember I told you
[1:04:34]>> I think in that context he made he showed me a photograph that he had with some um African warlords or something
[1:04:43]that he told me and you know I I don't remember if I that's what I interpreted like that kind of thing or whether it was something like that.
[1:04:54]That's the only actual active memory I have of something nefarious. Not nefarious. I don't even know if it was nefarious, but covert, I suppose, would be the word.
[1:05:06]>> And what about any other intelligence agency like um the CIA or Defense Intelligence or or any other law enforcement agency? >> Okay. I don't I don't think so. I think
[1:05:23]that I don't remember anything like that. I just don't think he had the wherewithal and I think that whole aspect of that is
[1:05:33]can I use a bad word? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> [ __ ] >> Okay. And what do you um you think is [ __ ] meaning um
[1:05:44]what do you mean? >> Would you have known if he was would he have been bragging to you? Would he have been saying these things? Yeah, >> I think he was because I I think well,
[1:05:54]sorry. I think that um I think one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my, you know, my family connections and and why he liked
[1:06:05]other people was because they were cool or whatever. And I think that certainly early in when I met him, he would have tried to impress me or tried to show
[1:06:16]off, if you will, like he was that guy, you know? and he wasn't that guy and so and I think that he would have tried to
[1:06:26][ __ ] me and and he didn't. So I think it's >> did um >> he may try to [ __ ] me but not >> sorry >> so I want to just shift for a few
[1:06:35]minutes to talk about post 2000 2000 to kind of when your relationship changed over the years with
[1:06:43]him um did there come a time when he he Mr. did meet members of the royal family. >> Yes. >> Um, when was that?
[1:06:53]>> So, I need to go back cuz I think I may have misspoke. I didn't misspe but I something that I had forgotten. >> Before I met Epstein. >> Mhm. >> He lived in London for a period of time.
[1:07:05]I don't know for how long. and he met and knew some truly fancy people like people
[1:07:14]high society people that included Princess Diana's best friend her name was Rosa Monton and Ros's husband Dominic Lawson who's a famous journalist
[1:07:26]actually is a very well-known journalist and um when I um and he had he was friends with the
[1:07:35]bearings bearings I mean he had like sort of >> that was you're talking >> before he met me >> before so in the >> 80s
[1:07:44]>> 80s he was dating Eva Anderson Miss Sweden I think I don't know when she became Missed >> okay so earlier when you said that he met them later you think he may have met
[1:07:56]some members of the royal family or certainly British high society >> he met I don't know about the royal family but certainly high society and the reason why I know >> this is because sometime I'm we this is
[1:08:07]a document documentable I think docu whatever there's a photograph that can give you the date cuz I don't remember what the date is of this so there's something that will peg whatever this
[1:08:18]date is I don't remember when that is um Epstein went to London without he often went everywhere without me but he was in
[1:08:28]London without me which was decently unusual because London's my hometown but anyway he went without me and he went to a big event in I think it was in the park. Anyway, it's
[1:08:40]a big event. It's on it's on it's on the news. It's like a there's photographs of it and he I don't know if he sat with Diana or he met Diana and he already met her. I don't know. But this I believe
[1:08:49]was organized by Rosa. And so there's I don't know if she was being set up as a date for him maybe because she I don't want I don't want to speak bad of Diana
[1:09:01]but like I'm not going to do that. >> Okay. So that was premeating you. >> No, that was when that event happened. When we were >> Oh, okay. That was >> when I some No, it's when we were I'm
[1:09:11]not going to say together, but or how about this? When I was his employee. Better. >> So, now moving back to the 2000s, there come a time when um Mr. Epstein met
[1:09:23]Prince Andrew? >> Yes. >> And others in the royal family or just Prince Andrew as far as you know? Well, so as as much as I can piece it together.
[1:09:36]All right. First of all, let's just state I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson. That is a flat untruth. Start with that. So
[1:09:48]now I'm going to tell you how he did actually meet him. So um I if you find me that photograph, I can date that time when he met Princess Diana at that event. I and based on that I'll be able
[1:09:59]to tell you if it's pre or post that event cuz I haven't looked it up and I've never bothered to check. So, um Lynn Forester who was a client or some
[1:10:09]type of client or I think she actually tried to date him or might have dated him for the record. Um she was in
[1:10:20]Do you want to ask me something? No. >> Okay. She was um she had a house or she rented a house in the vineyard. I think it was in the vineyard or or Nucket. I can't remember now which one it was. It was one of
[1:10:32]those. It's either Nucket or the vineyard and invited Epstein to go and I believe
[1:10:43]I believe that's when he met Prince Andrew. However, I believe that before that event, he had gone to the Bahamas
[1:10:51]and had hung out with Sarah Ferguson and Sarah had called Epstein and had arranged with Lynn or I don't
[1:11:02]know. I don't know. Now, I'm speculating. Anyway, long and short, he met Andrew at there. And I'm not holding you to an exact date, but when >> we can date it from that picture if you find me the picture.
[1:11:14]>> Would you know without looking at a photo in your mind approximately when was that? >> I want to say it was the 2000 2000. No, probably 2001 2002.
[1:11:25]>> Early 2000s. >> Yes. >> And I think it was actually um Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met Jeffrey Epstein through you.
[1:11:37]I think that's true. So, uh, well, >> it's true that Henry said that. >> Yeah. No, I'm sure it's true. Um,
[1:11:45]because I I'm English and my close friends are all
[1:11:54]close friends with Sarah and Andrew. And I would not um say that I was close friends with Andrew before, but certainly we were friendly and certainly
[1:12:05]his best friends. Some of them are very very close with me. And I think that my friendship
[1:12:13]uh my me being present or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey Moore like trust him or I think that's
[1:12:24]>> you don't dispute that you're that you kind of had a role in um getting together. You're just saying you didn't say >> I would never have introduced them. It would never have occurred to me to
[1:12:36]introduce them. I couldn't imagine them being very good. Two two chalk and Jesus would never I mean for real there's nothing there to connect them. So he met
[1:12:45]Prince Andrew and then he had a relationship. I don't I don't like that word. It sounds funky. They had a >> acquaintship.
[1:12:54]>> Thank you. and through Sarah. Actually, I think Sarah is the one that pushed that. And they met and hung out, I want
[1:13:05]to say two or three times. That had nothing to do with me. I wasn't communicating with Andrew. I wasn't in touch with him. And I know this because
[1:13:14]I was annoyed and I felt left out and I felt the disrespected and I was like this is
[1:13:26]weird. I couldn't even imagine Epstein and Andrew together and I thought that Sarah was trying to put the movies on Jeffrey if I'm being honest and I thought the whole thing was annoying and I was
[1:13:37]pissed. >> So what happened with their relationship? Putting aside the the publicity around Prince Andrew's purported relationship with
[1:13:48]um what happened as far as you know with Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein's relationship from from the times you just described
[1:13:56]>> after that um at some point Jeffrey told me Epstein told me that um Andrew was coming to New York and I needed to organize the whole thing.
[1:14:08]That's classic by the way. classic Epstein. Of course, if someone I'm like, "All right, fine, whatever." And because he wanted to make sure that Andrew was taken care of, and that he was
[1:14:19]comfortable, he had whatever he needed, and yada yada yada. And I'm like, "Well, am I going to meet him or you just going to have me do all the job?" And he said, "Well, you know, you can come and say hello."
[1:14:30]Wow. Well, that's so nice of you for real. Because you have to understand, like I don't know if I told you this before, but I did not have the keys to his I was not allowed to go to his house
[1:14:39]unless I was summoned or told. I was not allowed to answer his phones. We can go there. But anyway, so this we can tell was a bit of a sore point perhaps.
[1:14:50]Anyway, so Andrew came and of course the minute we got together, I was like, "Yay, hi." And then it was so nice
[1:15:00]because the the difference of being in England with Prince Andrew versus being in New York without all the [ __ ] was
[1:15:12]insane. And our friendship just like lit up like this because first of all he knew that I'm safe. I mean safe as in I'm not Yeah. You know Nigel Demper or
[1:15:23]taking a page. I mean, not in a million years would I do something so gross. And we honestly got on like a householder. I
[1:15:32]really liked him a lot. And he's it was so nice and we just became really really good friends, >> much more so than when we were in London if I'm honest.
[1:15:43]>> And then with respect to and Prince Andrew, um what do you know about that relationship? >> Would you like to ask that again?
[1:15:54]Relationships a big word. Like I said, I don't like the word. Let's just start there. Okay. So, I have read I I I just want to like piece together. >> Well, but don't say before you say what
[1:16:05]you read because that's one of the problems is that we're all kind of >> All right. All right. >> We're all informed by like all the publicity and information around what everybody else has said. But like what do you what do you
[1:16:15]>> what do you think >> or what did you see? What did you hear? >> What's what's an even bigger word than [ __ ] >> Okay. Why? Well, go ahead. Just but finish that thought. Why do you think that?
[1:16:26]>> I'm going to tell you right now. I'm so happy to tell you. I'm like excited. I'm beyond excited. Okay. So, there's going to mixture of what I've
[1:16:36]actually seen and know from the evidence and versus what I've put together. I'm impossible for me at this point to separate everything, but I'll tell you what I know versus what I saw and what I
[1:16:47]physically have in here, but it's helpful for you to know. So um the allegation I have to go with the allegation. The allegation was that at
[1:16:58]my house in London in March whatever that was 200 one I believe uh we went to London specially so that
[1:17:09]could have a could have a relationship with Prince Andrew and she was paid a vast amount of money for that purpose. Okay. and that she then um
[1:17:23]got in the in my bathroom in my house in London and had sexual relations with him and then went into my guest room and had full-blown sex and then left my house or
[1:17:34]he left and she felt used and disgusting and a photograph was taken of them just before all these events took place in my
[1:17:42]study. That is what is the story. Oh, and then after that she met him several other times, but we'll come to that. We'll come This is where it will allegedly started. >> And they went to [ __ ]
[1:17:54]>> Oh, right, right, right. We went to a nightclub that night. Oh, we went to dinner. Right. We went to dinner and then to [ __ ] Okay. So, the first thing about that weekend, that specific weekend, was that it's my mom's 80th
[1:18:06]birthday and I was in the country. And I have some corroborating evidence for that and a lot of testimonial that you can check. So, that takes care of
[1:18:17]the reason why I one of the reasons why her story doesn't hold water. The second reason why so by the way when I say that
[1:18:27]my mom turned 80th that actual weekend was her birthday is on March the 11th and the reason why I went to London and I presume but I this I don't remember is
[1:18:38]why when we were so the whole trip started because of Alberto Pinto who is the
[1:18:45]decorator for the island and for and for New York as well and uh He had wanted Epstein to go to see
[1:18:57]a house in Marrakesh if I remember rightly and went via the Alhhamra and was also for for New Mexico. So there's
[1:19:09]architectural pieces that complain and that's was the basis of that trip and I suspect now that that trip was planned all around the fact that I had to be in wanted to
[1:19:20]be in I was going to be in London no matter what for my mom's 80th birthday at my brother's house in the country which is approximately an hour outside of London. an hour and a
[1:19:31]half, an hour and a half outside of London and my brother's home and we all congregated on the Saturday for her birthday celebration on the Sunday and
[1:19:42]then we left. So that's that. The second reason why probably maybe even the more important
[1:19:54]reason than my mom's birthday that I think it's absolute rubbish is that Prince Andrew the idea of him doing anything of that
[1:20:03]nature in my house that's the size of this room is so mindblowingly not conceivable to me as
[1:20:15]the man or what I I just can't I can't even >> No. >> Is there any way that that it could have happened? >> No. >> Okay.
[1:20:26]>> Describe the physical plans. >> Oh, the physical. So, the my house was tiny. I think it's 900 square ft in total. Well, maybe that. Is
[1:20:37]that right? Maybe. Maybe n It's on It is on three floors, however. So, you're talking about a little It's a jewel. It used to be a stable for a horse. It was
[1:20:47]the stables for the big houses. It was the It was the little poor man's home behind the rich man's home. It's a jewel. It's a was a gorgeous little place, but it is the size of a nut. If
[1:20:59]you make a noise, let's say you did a little burp or something, you didn't want you'd hear it. It just
[1:21:09]Where she says that they had relations in a bathroom. I first of all the bath is an old Victorian bath. I I could I'm
[1:21:20]quite quite small. It's tight for me. I put my brother in there to see what would happen and it was looks like oblivid which is a sausage in a layer very tight tight
[1:21:31]skin. So her her description of whatever the two people were doing in the tub that would work. The bathroom itself is so small you can't lie flat on the floor. It couldn't happen on the floor
[1:21:42]cuz you physically physically can't. This bathroom is too small to even be on the floor. And then the kicker of all kickers is that because the bathroom was so small, I decorated it to try and make
[1:21:54]it look huge, which meant that I put mirrors the whole way around it. And what was so fun about being in there is that if you stood in the bathroom, you saw like a hundred of you like you do if you were in um >> a fun house.
[1:22:05]>> Yeah. But Alice in Wonderland or one of those things that you would see yourself going stretching everywhere and the image if you said you were let's say you were let's let's say the is telling the
[1:22:15]truth. She could say she was having sex with 5,000 generations of the royal family cuz that's how far back you could see yourself. There is no way in God's
[1:22:26]green earth if that had taken place that this is something that you would miss because it's you can miss it. If you were standing there now, you'd see the whole of the FBI, the whole of the Department of Justice standing behind
[1:22:37]you. It's like, no, you >> let me just also explain where the tap was in the bathtub.
[1:22:45]>> Oh, well, it's an old V had a tap. So, if you were in God, if you were in the tub, my This was the
[1:22:56]tub. My tap would be here. I think H. No. >> So, you think it's kind of logistically and physically
[1:23:06]not something that could have >> Well, there's that. And there's just Andrew, he he's so English.
[1:23:23]He's so He has had a tie on. Do you think there's any way it could have happened or No,
[1:23:32]>> absolutely on no way. No how. >> Absolutely not. Wait, I haven't finished. So, >> no. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Sorry. Go ahead. Go, go, go. Finish.
[1:23:44]Please go ahead. >> Go ahead. >> Sorry. Can I finish? when all this nonsense took place where this whole story with the picture and
[1:23:54]the this and the that and this [ __ ] I believe that this whole thing was manufactured and I can
[1:24:04]point you to some potentially corroborating evidence of this. So when she gave the photograph to the FBI in Australia, >> just just to be clear, the photograph you're talking about, you're talking
[1:24:16]about the the famous one where >> I have a I have a image of it here holding and you're in the background >> the fake
[1:24:25]just to be Yeah. So uh on the back of that and this is in the Discovery by the way. Uh I don't know if it's in I don't
[1:24:36]know where which discovery I saw it in now but this she wrote she wrote in the back that it was a picture that was taken in January of 200
[1:24:45]in 2000 or 2001 I don't remember. >> Okay. >> So now in her handwriting that she's giving the FBI this picture suddenly now it's March. So how do you go from her
[1:24:56]writing it's January to March? It's because it only that's the only one that fit with the flight logs that when she could be in London and this took place.
[1:25:05]The second thing is that um Oh, I'm so excited to tell you this. There is a journalist. I know you guys are quite Oh, I don't
[1:25:16]know. The fake news is at work here. So, there's a journalist called Sharon Church. There is a lawyer called Brad Edwards.
[1:25:30]These two and there is a Southern District of Florida prosecutor called Vilifana. I would very much look forward to
[1:25:41]showing you the relationship between these three parties that created that story. >> Why? Well, without putting aside the
[1:25:51]relationship, why why do you think they created that story? >> Um, I believe that story was created for the
[1:26:01]purposes of well, there are multiple. The first one is financial. The second one is for the purposes of
[1:26:12]the CV case. Uh the third one was for uh the serialization both of her book and in the papers for the story to attack the
[1:26:24]royal family >> and just as a >> So I I think when when you were just asked about the photo, you said you
[1:26:34]actually thought the photo was fake. Do you think it was just misdated or do you think it's a literally a fake photo? >> I believe it's literally a fake photo.
[1:26:44]Um, why do you think that? >> Um, well, first of all, I don't remember it. We'll start. >> Right. Okay. But the outfit I'm wearing >> Yeah.
[1:26:56]>> is the outfit from my mom's birthday party. >> So, but you don't have any Do you dispute that they've met each
[1:27:06]other? >> Do you know whether they've met each other? >> I do not know that they met. >> Okay. So, so you not only So, you think the photograph is fake, but you also are not even positive they actually ever met
[1:27:18]each other. >> I know. >> So, you don't have a specific recollection of kind of being at an event or a party or your apartment or
[1:27:27]your, you know, your flat in London with Prince Andrew. And >> absolutely, >> she doesn't know one way or the other. >> I want you the reason why I I'm not
[1:27:38]hesitant. I'm not I don't have any memory of that. So that that's not the issue. The issue is could Andrew have come to the house to see me or see Epstein and say hi and she had been
[1:27:48]there. Yes, I can't say that that hadn't happened. But what I can absolutely categorically say is that I never at any
[1:27:58]time said Andrew up to have relations with her or any other human being ever. And I can categorically state that her
[1:28:09]her characterization of whatever may or may not have happened could physically would just know. And plus I was in the
[1:28:18]country so all of that's just not conceivable. Did you attend um did you attend social parties o over and
[1:28:35]again I really now I'm focused on 2000 plus so so not not the earlier years where um Missy would host the party or be a big
[1:28:47]part of the hosting of the party and some of or many of the young women who or massuses would be invited to the party as guests or as entertainment.
[1:28:57]>> Um, I certainly went to his house when he would have people who would be there that were I call them I would the way I
[1:29:09]would think of it and I would characterize it were his entourage. That's how I thought about it. And that certainly was in the later 2000s. Yes. Did um
[1:29:20]did you attend um any weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein? Again, I'm mostly focused on post plus post post
[1:29:31]2000, but if there's something that comes to mind in the '90s, that's fine as well. >> A wedding >> weddings >> with with Epstein.
[1:29:42]I don't think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein. I I can't think of a wedding that I ever went to with him. >> Um
[1:29:51]do you know um so you don't remember you didn't attend um President Clinton's daughter's wedding? >> I did. >> Chelsea Clinton's but that wasn't with Mr. Epstein.
[1:30:00]>> No, it was with Ted Wait, my boyfriend. >> Say it again. >> With Ted Wait, my boyfriend. >> Okay. Um do you know whether Mr. Epstein was at that wedding? >> He was not.
[1:30:10]>> Okay. And how did you did you have a relationship? Well, why did you get invited that way? >> Because Ted and Clinton were very close
[1:30:21]>> and why how are you close to them? Like what what was the reason you were close to them? >> I met um President Clinton. Well, I first of all, I went to the White House
[1:30:30]with Epstein once for uh I think it was for a historical like one of those benefits and um I met the president then, but like thousand other people
[1:30:41]shook his hand. Then after that, um, I had a very a good friend of mine that was the known to be the mayor of Miami Beach,
[1:30:51]Philip Lavine. And Philillip and the president were very good friends. And Philip was a very and I were very good friends. And so I actually
[1:31:01]was introduced to the president post his coming out of the White House and became friendly with him because of Philip Lavine. >> Because of what?
[1:31:12]>> Philip Lavine. >> Um there's some names that have been publicly associated with um Mr. Epstein
[1:31:24]that I just want to ask you if you know about. Um, Piers Morgan >> is friendly with who? >> With with Mr. Epstein. >> I have no idea. Never. I doubt it.
[1:31:35]>> Yeah, there's no trick question. I'm not I'm not I'm not suggesting that I know the answer to it. I'm genuinely just asking. >> Well, I would be astonished. I can't imagine they'd have anything in common either.
[1:31:44]>> How about friends with Piers Morgan? >> I I've met him. Um I've met him. I met him at an event in Manhattan. uh
[1:31:55]I can't remember what uh in more recently so probably in 200 12 30 something in that and and we had a
[1:32:06]very nice conversation. So I remember I remember that I remember thinking I'd never I don't remember if I'd ever met him before but I remember thinking how nice he was and how I was surprised. So
[1:32:16]I I liked him. What can I tell you? So that that's the only one that's the only memory I have of that. I I'm not sure if that's correct, but that's what I think. >> I don't have a correct or incorrect answer.
[1:32:27]>> No, I just No, I just I just want to try and >> No, no, but I I don't I want you to believe me and because I I mean this there is so much information in the
[1:32:36]public sphere around you and Mr. Epstein and others around and some of it is definitely true and some of it is definitely false. I just >> when I ask a question, if I think that
[1:32:48]you're not being honest or that you're missing something, I'm not This isn't got you. I'll say that to you. >> Um, did you ever meet JFK Jr.? >> I'm sorry. >> Did you ever meet JFK Jr.? >> Yes.
[1:33:00]>> When was that? >> I would I um I met him at um
[1:33:11]Andrew Cuomo's wedding. No, Kerry. Kerry. K's wedding. K's wedding. Who did Carrie Mary? Andrew Quman. Yes. Sorry. >> Okay. >> Andrew Qumer's wedding in >> So when would that have been approximately?
[1:33:22]>> 1990. >> So before >> 1989. >> I don't something like that. >> But would that have been before you met Mr. Epstein?
[1:33:33]>> Uh yes. >> Um did you have any sort of professional or social relationship with John F. Kennedy Jr.? >> I fancied him.
[1:33:44]>> You would? I thought he was very attractive. >> Oh, you fancied him. >> Sorry. >> Besides finding him attractive and fancing him, did you did you have any sort of, you know, social relationship with him?
[1:33:55]>> I mean, we knew each other and I I thought he was wonderful and fun and I enjoyed meeting him, but I we went out. I I wanted to say we had a dinner or
[1:34:06]two, but I was very excited, but that was it. Um, and then Alan Dersowitz, >> I What's the question with Allan? >> Do you say it again? >> What's the question?
[1:34:16]>> Do Do you know Do you know Mr. Durowitz? Do you know whether he knew Mr. Epstein? Do you know the nature of their relationship? >> Um, I definitely do know Allan. Um,
[1:34:27]I want I'm just trying to remember if I knew him. I I'm trying to remember how I met him and if I met him separate from I don't remember. So that I have no
[1:34:36]recollection. Um, I remember um I know that he was Epstein's lawyer. I don't know if they had any
[1:34:46]relationship prior to that. I don't remember. Oh, I do actually. So, I think they met at the same Martha's Vineyard through Lin Forester. Now, I I think
[1:34:57]that's what happened. I think that's it. >> And why do you think that? >> Um, because it just popped in to my head. >> Okay. Um, and did you did you um you
[1:35:08]said that Mr. Dersawitz was Mr. Epstein's attorney. Do you know whether they also socialized? >> Um, so my personal memory of when I I
[1:35:19]remember two I have two distinct memories with Alan. one is with him and his wife at the island and I I absolutely remember that and I
[1:35:30]remember I I think going to his house in Boston if he had a house in Boston. That's the only two times I remember. >> Did you ever observe um Mr. Dersitz
[1:35:42]doing anything inappropriate with young women around Mr. Epstein? >> Never. Um, did you ever hear anybody did anybody ever tell you that he had done anything inappropriate? >> Absolutely no.
[1:35:53]>> Did you ever did you do you know one way or the other whether m Mr. Dur was ever got a massage at the island or any of the locations
[1:36:02]that um he was at with Mr. Epstein? >> I I don't remember anything about him ever getting massage. I don't ever have any rec I don't believe I ever even saw
[1:36:12]him in a bathroom. I have no knowledge of that. >> Um, >> I'm I'm jumping around a little bit. Um,
[1:36:27]you mentioned I think briefly, but the Terramar project. >> Yes. >> What is that?
[1:36:34]>> Um, I founded Terramar in Oh, the idea of Terramar came I think in 2010. So, um I want to just explain
[1:36:46]Terramar a little bit. So, uh Ted and I bought a boat. Well, Ted bought the boat
[1:37:02]and um it's the basis of the boat was to do explorations and um sea sea exploratory stuff.
[1:37:14]This really started because I have and have had since I was a child a love of the ocean and everything aquatic and um
[1:37:25]I um I've always been I just I'm nervous about the state of the ocean.
[1:37:37]When Ted and I we worked with National Geographic and we did exploratory work and The most exciting what we did many exciting things but one of the most
[1:37:47]fabulous ones that we did was we looked for Amelia Heheart twice. I did two expeditions to look for Amelia Heheart as as an example of an of a exploration
[1:37:59]that we did. Um and he he had a foundation for the ocean and uh we wor
[1:38:06]with Nat Gio, we wor with um Woods Hull. Um, we we did amazing things. We bought he bought the Remis 6000. So
[1:38:18]when the plane went missing, the plane that went was it France from Brazil to Paris and went down, it was the Remis 6000 that found that plane. It's one of
[1:38:28]those deep sea underexplored. Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, I I just one of the things I did not want to give up was uh the my love of the ocean and
[1:38:40]everything that we did. And Terramar, the the genesis of Terramar came from that. So, Terramar obviously means land, sea, and the story of the ocean is that um
[1:38:51]earth really shouldn't be called Earth. It should be called ocean because 3/4 is the ocean. So, and uh so I wanted to not clash with anything to do with Ted
[1:39:02]because it was a bit awkward between us and I so he took all the part of the ocean that was close to land so within 200 miles and so I decided I would focus on all the part of the ocean that was
[1:39:14]outside of national borders Tiramar and that's how that that's the genesis of Tamar. Okay. >> So, what was the time period of that? >> That I think after I broke up with Ted.
[1:39:24]So, 2010 11 is when it started and then I ran it all the way up until whenever the Epstein drama struck. And then I just shut it down. not uh I shut
[1:39:36]it down because I didn't want what was happening to hurt any the the Smithsonian or Nat Geo or the I just
[1:39:46]couldn't let everything be hurt by what was happening to me. >> Do you know um Jean Luke Bernell? >> Yes.
[1:39:56]>> How do you know? Um, I met him. So when I told you I was working for the European for my dad. Um, and I was in >> back in like 90, early '90s.
[1:40:06]>> Yeah. And I was, um, running a magazine. One of the things in the magazine is fashion. And so, uh, I
[1:40:16]was going to some fashion shows and I was looking for fashion sponsorship. And in fact, when I came to America, one of the um the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron
[1:40:28]Pelman at at Revlon, who was great. And um I met Jean Luke through just in
[1:40:38]Paris like that, but socially not. >> Did Mr. Epstein know him as well? Did you later learn whether they knew each other? >> I'm not sure. I I don't He would have
[1:40:49]Epstein had his own fashion situation so he would have I I don't He didn't meet John Luke through me. >> Did you ever observe them together over the years? >> Absolutely. Yeah, I saw them many times together.
[1:41:01]>> Did Did he um visit the island? Did he go to Palm meet go to Palm Beach? >> Yeah, he went everywhere. I saw him in every place.
[1:41:11]Did do you ever observe him um uh getting a massage >> or do you ever know whether got a massage? Maybe you didn't observe it personally? >> You don't remember?
[1:41:23]>> I don't know. I mean I don't I never I have no conscious memory of John Luke. I would imagine that he did, but I never I don't
[1:41:34]>> How about um Mr. Weinstein? Harvey Weinstein. >> What would you like to know? >> Do you know him? Yes. >> How do you know him? >> Like I guess when I say how do you know
[1:41:45]him, is it a relation you had kind of separate from Mr. Epstein or did you guys did you meet him through Mr. Epstein or um >> I wouldn't first of all I wouldn't say I had any type of relationship with Harvey
[1:41:56]Weinstein. >> Okay. in any context. Socially, I would meet him because I would go to events that Harvey would be at and also his wife was English than Georgina
[1:42:07]>> and I was I mean friendly also would be a big word more of acquaintance. So we would see each other and I would go to Mirramax events. There was a couple of
[1:42:17]people who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with. his primary producer whose name is Mel Poster who I was
[1:42:26]friendly with and um >> do you know whether Mr. Epstein had his own relationship with Mr. Weinstein? >> He did.
[1:42:37]>> Did they um socialize together at the island or in Palm Beach or >> I never saw Harvey at any of houses. socialize. I don't know that they were
[1:42:48]friends. I mean, I can't see them together either. I mean, literally, but um I know that they certainly do that. I would >> Good afternoon. We are continuing the
[1:42:58]recorded proper interview of Miss Maxwell. The time is 12:59, Thursday, July 24th. >> Um Okay. So, just continuing we're
[1:43:13]talking about Miss Maxwell. um still focused on the '9s time period with understanding that could spill over in the early 2000s, but still that part
[1:43:25]of your of your life with Mr. Epstein. Um there's been
[1:43:32]um public reporting about conduct by Mr. Epstein and others at Little St. James.
[1:43:40]>> Yes. Um so can you talk about um the frequency with which you went there
[1:43:48]um and address some of those um some of the reporting namely around young massuses or young women who would
[1:43:58]be present and um what you observed relating to them and then I'll ask questions around that. So, if I'm right, he purchased the
[1:44:09]island in 1996 and he was friendly with the owners and originally we went to the island as guests of the owners and then
[1:44:19]I guess at some point the owners told him he they wanted to sell and he decided to purchase it. So, um the island was very rustic. I
[1:44:30]loved it. of course have completely different ideas and um I would say there was none of what you were describing at
[1:44:40]that early period of time. So the frequency was was often often on the island because um he loved it. He really
[1:44:50]really loved it. Um, and we we would go all the time. Mostly all the early phase was based on
[1:45:02]improvements that could be made on the island. Always going with new architects, new designers, new construction people. I'd say the first
[1:45:13]two years, almost every trip, not everyone, but almost every trip contained some an individual who would be brought on board
[1:45:24]to have an opinion as to how to uh I don't want to use the word improve the island because I don't think you could improve it, but to uh I can't think what
[1:45:34]the word would be to um what's the word to develop it. Sorry, that's the word.
[1:45:45]Okay, develop develop the island. That's the word I'm looking for. So, >> so there were trips, constant trips with that in mind. And I would say now if
[1:45:54]we're moving to the late 90s, 96, 97, >> right, we're resuming the recorded profer of Miss Maxwell. It is 216 on
[1:46:04]Thursday, July 24th, and the recording device is now on. So when we stopped to take a break, we
[1:46:14]were talking about um what has been publicly discussed as um a black book or the Epstein list and um
[1:46:25]and that's where we are. So you said you you think you might know or that you're aware of kind of the the origin of of this narrative. >> All right. I just want to reiterate
[1:46:35]again. There is no list that I am aware of. I've never at any time at least during the period of time when I was >> okay >> present. >> Okay. The origin of this story, I believe,
[1:47:02]begins or it has a it has a beginning in 2009 and then it has a it has a prequel that
[1:47:11]we have to start in 2009. In 2009 there is uh
[1:47:21]Epstein is I think out of jail and there are civil suits taking place.
[1:47:32]Many of these are coming out of a disgraced law firm. Roststein and Adler. Roststein
[1:47:42]Rosenfeld and Adler. At that law firm
[1:47:50]is a lawyer who started there in April May 2009 called Brad Edwards. In
[1:48:08]2009, allegedly, the FBI gets a call in October of 2009
[1:48:21]from Brad Edwards. He allegedly tells them that he has come across a piece of
[1:48:32]evidence that belongs to Epstein that contains a list
[1:48:42]of all of his clients and victims,
[1:48:50]underage girls, massage therapists, and his uh and the men who are having sex
[1:49:00]with them and he becomes he Brad Edwards becomes a cooperating witness cooperating >> confidential >> confidential informant sorry
[1:49:11]confidential informant for them and in a sting operation obtains
[1:49:20]the list from a former battler of Xines called Alfredo Rodriguez.
[1:49:30]And it becomes evidence in the civil suit. in the
[1:49:43]uh Alfredo Rodriguez is subsequently prosecuted for having an AK-47 or something weird, some
[1:49:53]guns or something, and goes to trial and there's a criminal complaint that the FBI produced. And in that criminal complaint, it says that
[1:50:04]Brad Edwards became aware of the list, but we'll call it the list for the purposes of this.
[1:50:13]after Alfredo Rodriguez's two depositions that are held in
[1:50:21]Epstein's a Epstein civil suit. It's in the FBI's affidavit that the evidence was collected and Brad Evans
[1:50:32]became aware of it after the second deposition. It's in the criminal complaint. The truth is different from what's in
[1:50:48]both the criminal complaint and in that FBI affidavit and in Brad Edwards's own statements on the subject. The truth
[1:50:57]is that Alfredo Rodriguez was deposed twice, once in July and once in August.
[1:51:05]And in the July deposition told Brad Edwards that he had handwritten notes or a journal, whatever
[1:51:16]in the deposition. And Brad Edwards replies, "Well, we're going to come back for a second deposition." And the second deposition takes place in August. What this means is that Brad Edwards had
[1:51:31]access to the list from sometime between July and August until when he actually called the FBI in
[1:51:42]October. So, we're talking 6 months or so. Rostine's firm
[1:51:55]was raided a few days after the list went into the
[1:52:02]FBI's hands and uh subsequently Rosstein himself was prosecuted for RICO and I believe went to jail for 50 years. As
[1:52:13]part of that RICO case, he admitted to on the record and was I don't know whether he was prosecuted for creating fake settlements and fake evidence in
[1:52:25]Epstein's case in
[1:52:35]2009. Simultaneously, whilst this was going on, my
[1:52:45]boyfriend Ted Wait, was asked for $10 million to keep me out of any of Epstein's civil suits.
[1:52:55]Up until then, I had not been in any of Epstein's civil suits. In fact, I wasn't even sure. Save for the first time I was mentioned was by
[1:53:07]I hadn't been I was basically nowhere. Um and then Ted was called for this $10 million and had been shown his people
[1:53:18]had been shown evidence that included the list
[1:53:27]uh the flight logs and various other pieces of evidence. Now we're going to the prequel part of
[1:53:37]the story. So then it can tie to how this starts. Um in
[1:53:47]2007, Epstein signs the nonprosecution agreement. He then fights the procution agreement or debates it through the DOJ or
[1:53:58]whatever happened there and and is goes to the court in 2008 when it it's
[1:54:06]accepted or whatever that is. Vilifana was the lead prosecutor. Oh,
[1:54:14]the lead yes in that case. And um she I think was not happy
[1:54:24]with the outcome and
[1:54:31]utilized at that time Brad Edwards to
[1:54:39]file the CV case. Now what is
[1:54:49]what I have managed to understand from this is within the OPR itself there is evidence that it says that Brad Edwards was the only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to. So, I just want to preface
[1:55:01]that the reason why uh I know that she went behind
[1:55:12]Aosta's back and everything else to do this is because Brad Edwards in a podcast made the revelation.
[1:55:23]What he says is that he'd never heard of the CVA case before and Vilifana called him and told him to file it. The sole
[1:55:33]purpose of the CV was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement. So what I believe is that Vilifana
[1:55:44]worked with Brad Edwards who she had also been he was the lawyer that she had selected as a proono lawyer for some of the victims
[1:55:55]and he was also working for Roststein's firm that was under RICO investigation for that entire time creating fake
[1:56:04]evidence in Epstein's case and she had just filed hidden secret using Edwards to overturn the NPA by
[1:56:15]filing the non this CB case that sole purpose was to overturn it. And so when he approached her with the list,
[1:56:27]this was part of the effort to utilize and find new evidence to support the overturning either of the NPA andor of a new case
[1:56:38]against Epstein. Because Brad Edwards, or I don't know it was Brad Edwards, because Rostine's firm
[1:56:47]asked my then boyfriend for $10 million to kick me out of suits that I had no knowledge of at that time whatsoever. I now know that the base of this story was
[1:56:57]a blackmail of a billionaire cuz Ted Wait was a multi-billionaire. He had everything. He was way way more
[1:57:08]wealthy than Epstein if anyone cares. And that is the reason why Ted and I broke up or was the basis of it.
[1:57:21]>> So, >> and that list was created. So, then the the the masseuses that were on that list, I had never heard of some of them.
[1:57:31]I I not even from the civil suits that had come up since I've seen it. And this is me now knowing what's in the list
[1:57:39]today. And I believe that oh uh Alfredo Rodriguez, so there's a metamorphosis of this list. So the
[1:57:49]original statement that Brad Edwards makes that's in the documents contemporaneously is that it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has. It then morphs into
[1:58:00]something that Alfredo took a book that Alfredo took from Epstein's computer, but there's no computer I know, certainly not in 2005
[1:58:11]when this was allegedly taken that came out as a book. And then it morphed into at the civil time of my civil cases into a book that was taken from my computer
[1:58:23]and then it morphed into the southern district of New York as a combination list of minor Epstein. That is a a metamorphosis through documents that
[1:58:34]you can trace. So, so the the there in your mind from what
[1:58:46]you just described there is a list. It's just it's just manufactured. I mean, have you seen the the the the
[1:58:56]list even fake? Like, do you know? I I haven't seen it, but but what >> I just I was confused. >> So I guess my my thing is that what Brian Edwards says in all of these things is in in the paperwork and whatnot and then
[1:59:08]>> so all this story is basically controlled by five people. There's four alleged victims that speak about the list and the blackmail and the men and
[1:59:17]the sex and whatnot and and the lawyers and now the prosecutors, sorry, the Southern District of New York for sure, but no one else. None of these stories
[1:59:28]carry from any of the 44 alleged original victims. They never ever say that they were farmed out to anybody. >> But the list itself, >> yes, >> where is it
[1:59:38]>> that there is no list, but Brad Brad Edwards said that he created confused about >> Sorry. He created a list. He so in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez produced
[1:59:50]that became evidence exhibit 52 in my trial has markings all over it circles and dots and whatnot. And Al uh Brad
[2:00:00]Edwards says that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of all the people who were involved. It includes Alan Derswitz for the record who's marked. I don't remember what it does
[2:00:12]with Donald Trump. I I don't I don't know. You'd have to look. I don't have it. But um I believe so what he did he marked up I
[2:00:23]don't know who somebody marked up that book of names and I think all the names of the people that they went for were originally selected between two sources.
[2:00:33]One was this alleged book of names and one was also from the telephone locks that were collected from the house in
[2:00:42]Palm Beach. And just to finish it off, um there is a note. Um I have some papers for you if you wanted them where
[2:00:53]Brad Edwards says that he has a list of 25 men that he got money off. >> So okay. So, so, so the list that
[2:01:04]everybody the black book, the list, what what you're saying is that your your your exhibit 52 from your trial, which is like an more of an address book, a
[2:01:14]rolodex type thing that Mr. Rodriguez, Alfredo Rodriguez, your understanding is that somewhere along the way he went through and kind of marked that list to say, >> I don't know where that book actually
[2:01:25]comes from. >> Okay. >> I don't know what that book is. That book is some type of a compilation, but what it is is it's just pieces of paper with type. So if you had
[2:01:37]you could have made a list. I could put >> But you're referring to something that's been public for a long if we're thinking about the same thing. You're talking about the You're right. It's like a
[2:01:49]bunch of different types of paper or whatever. I only have a copy of it, but with big parts of it redacted publicly because SQL's addresses and what? >> Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
[2:02:00]>> Okay. >> So, it Oh, perfect. Yes. So, you will find >> We're looking at exhibit 52 now. >> Okay. So, you're looking at exhibit 52. So,
[2:02:10]the one they produced they the Southern District of New York actually produced a book for me to see as evidence the actual thing it was. And I it has marks,
[2:02:21]it has tabs, it has things, it has names I've never seen. It had like that list of those that list was basically the names that they choose to produce at
[2:02:32]trial. Now, in Rostine Adler's firm, I also have some documents where Rostine
[2:02:40]his his original scheme Rostine Adler was to place prostitutes. He had a a
[2:02:47]bar, a dancy bar where he had girls and I believe he would use them and put them as fake secretaries in people's offices
[2:02:58]and then she might touch him or he might touch her or something and boom, he got $25,000 for that. And those girls, I'm not saying that those are the girls that
[2:03:07]came in Epstein's case necessarily, but the [Applause]
[2:03:16]So, um, so but again, let's like so with separating the evidence that came in at your trial
[2:03:27]and what you just talked about with Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez, um, during the time that you were with
[2:03:36]Mr. Epstein and even in the 2000s when you were around less frequently, you never observed or you never saw any
[2:03:47]sort of list or black book or a list of individuals who um you know linked to certain massuses or anything like that.
[2:03:57]>> Absolutely. No, there is no list. There is no I'm not aware of any blackmail. I I never heard
[2:04:08]I never heard that. I never saw it and I never I never imagined it. >> Um while we're on this topic, just again, I
[2:04:19]know we're jumping around and we've been going at it for a while, so I apologize, but um there's recently been reports about a birthday book that you assembled
[2:04:29]for Mr. reps I think for his 50th birthday in 2003. >> That's true. >> What do you what do you know about that? >> So, um
[2:04:41][Applause] my mom did a birthday book for my father at his 60th and when I Epstein would talk about his 50th he
[2:04:52]said I don't know what I'm going to do and I said well there's a nice thing is my mom did this book for my dad. He said I love that idea. He said, um, can you
[2:05:02]help coordinate it? And he organized who he called a lot of the people himself. I coordinated the putting together of the
[2:05:12]book and some in some instances I called people to ask them to. >> What was in the book? Like what was the ask of the of the people you called? >> It's his 50th birthday. Say anything you
[2:05:24]want on a piece of paper. >> Okay. >> I mean, nothing more than that, >> right? I mean it was an obvious question but you basically his folks were invited to send something to you to celebrate his birthday.
[2:05:35]>> Yes. To say happy birthday with like have a wonderful day or something else. It it there was no there was no ask but I I wasn't responsible for everybody in that book and there were people that he
[2:05:47]would ask himself to contribute. And do you remember some Do you remember specific names of individuals who did
[2:05:55]send letters or who did contribute? >> It's been so long. I want to tell you that I I don't remember.
[2:06:06]>> I honestly don't remember. >> The the the article talks about um several names, but including the focus of the article, which is on Donald Trump. Do you remember President Trump
[2:06:16]submitting um a letter or a card or a note? >> I I I don't. >> Um do you think the articles well do you
[2:06:25]remember seeing um that book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York? >> Yes.
[2:06:37]>> Okay. What do you remember seeing? I remember um there was there were some portions of that book, but what surprised me?
[2:06:48]Yeah. What surprised me was how few there were because I thought if you had those, where are the rest? Um there was none of Mr. Trump
[2:07:00]>> in your discovery. Oh, >> in my discovery, sorry. President Trump, right? There was nothing from President Trump. >> And do you remember, but separate apart from your discovery, do you remember one way or the other
[2:07:10]whether President Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday? >> I do not remember. >> Um, and the the article that references the letter talks about
[2:07:22]um like a like either naked a picture of naked woman or something like like that. Do you have any recollection of that? >> I do not. Wait, just No, I don't.
[2:07:32]Um, do you remember so what do you remember seeing from your discovery around the the book? Like you said portions of it or some of the pictures. What do you remember?
[2:07:44]>> I remember there were maybe that's I just want to say about the discovery that I had about
[2:07:55]maybe this is an exaggeration I'm not sure but in my mind it's about close to 5 million page 5 million documents. It was a lot. And of that giant document
[2:08:05]dump that I received, I was only a maybe as much as 30 to 35% I was never able to access. And this is documented on at the
[2:08:16]court. And so I cannot say that I saw everything because I didn't. >> Yeah. Okay. >> I just want you to know that. And I think that that was by design.
[2:08:27]>> But you But you do remember. I do remember some pages. >> Seeing some pages. >> Okay. Do you remember which pages you saw >> like from it was from who who wrote
[2:08:38]written those letters or No, >> I really don't remember. Sorry. >> It's okay. Um did you did you andor so the same questions we've asked
[2:08:49]about some other individuals. Did you have did you meet Bill Gates over the years? >> Yes. >> Um because of your relationship with Mr. Abstein or separate
[2:08:59]>> that one? Well, I met Mr. Gay. I went to the TED conference. I gave I went to TED conference and I actually spoke at the TED conference. not the main stage, the substage and I also gave several TEDexes
[2:09:11]but and I met him there but we weren't friendly and I actually did uh meet him uh because I knew his I don't know if he
[2:09:21]was a chief of staff or whoever Boris and I met him I think once I I may have met him actually at 71st Street I I may
[2:09:32]have once I don't remember if I met him there or at a restaurant I don't And that would have been because of Epstein because Epstein was friendly with Boris and Boris that's all I remember.
[2:09:43]>> Do you know whether um Mr. Gates traveled with Mr. Epstein on his plane to any of his houses? >> So if that that friendship was after,
[2:09:53]you know, was in the late 2000s. So if I met him, like I said, I went to Epstein's house maybe once or twice and maybe I met him there. I don't remember. >> So you don't. So I wouldn't know if he had been on Epstein.
[2:10:05]>> And you weren't you don't recall ever being on like a plane with him flying to the island or to anywhere? >> No. >> Um, >> do you know somebody named Reed Hoffman?
[2:10:16]>> I do. >> Who's that? >> Reed's a Silicon Valley guy. >> Is what? >> Silicon Valley. >> And how do you know him? >> Um, through my friends in San Francisco.
[2:10:27]I have a I used to have a very close friend who was in San Francisco who's part of that whole I have several actually or had >> So is that a relationship you have kind of separate and apart from Mr. Epstein
[2:10:38]>> or separate? >> Do you know whether um Mr. Epstein had a relationship with Reed Hoffman? >> I don't know. >> Did you ever observe Mr. Hoffman flying
[2:10:48]anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein um or getting massages? No. No. Um, [Applause]
[2:11:09]so there was there's a list a list of multiple massuses that that is floating around. I think you had new discovery. I think you were just talking
[2:11:18]about that. Um, that list, do you know how that list was created? >> No. That all that stuff that came out of
[2:11:30]that book, >> I now find suspect. >> It's it's part it's part of the story you just told us. >> Yes. Now, I'm not saying it's all fake. I don't know what's real, what's not. I don't know what name is true. Now that
[2:11:41]it's been to my mind anyway, now that it has been without a doubt contaminated and possibly fraudulent, I I I'm not I don't know. I mean,
[2:11:52]obviously the numbers that I recognize are my own, those are real. But how it was actually ended up put together and compiled and the purposes for it for which then they blackmailed my
[2:12:02]boyfriend. Now I I'm just >> over the years when you were act serving as like the general manager. So the mid
[2:12:11]90s all the way into the 2000s. Did you or do you know whether anyone maintained a list of all the massuses like a running list? >> So there would have so there's two thing
[2:12:22]well three ways. So I know that uh the house itself John Allessie had a rolodex that he kept the names and
[2:12:34]numbers of all the people that came to the house so that he could call. So because I only was with Epstein even at
[2:12:43]best half the time. So when I was there, he had like his chief of staff who could find whatever he needed. And when I wasn't there, he had to rely on somebody
[2:12:53]else, right? So be that John Allesie or whoever else. So everybody, whoever was traveling with him or how wherever he was, he needed somebody else to access
[2:13:03]information. So he had an an assistant chief who was his secretary who would be the one that would update his his computer,
[2:13:13]you know, like everybody has an address book, >> but was was what you're describing which I'm not It makes sense. I'm just
[2:13:23]Was that a list of massuses or a list of people that might need to be contacted which would necessarily include a lot of massuses? That's the latter.
[2:13:34]>> Um, and did you did you update that? Like were you part of were you one of the people that would
[2:13:44]would add names to it? Like if if a if a masseuse came and leaves and Mr. Robson says yes, she was good. Would you be part like how was the list kind of maintained or who maintained it?
[2:13:56]Typically, no, because there would be an assistant who would do that. Plus, Epstein would not allow me to answer the telephone ever. So, or maintain or keep
[2:14:08]any of his messages in the office or at the house. So, typically that wouldn't be because I wouldn't be the one. Could I say to you I never did it? No, of course not. Cuz
[2:14:19]that just seems ludicrous. But as a rule of thumb, the answer would be no. >> Um,
[2:14:28]during the 2007 89 investigate the investigation out of the Southern District of Florida, so you said that you weren't contacted by law enforcement. Um,
[2:14:40]>> after Mr. Epstein was charged, did you have conversations with him about the investigation? >> He never talked to me about it. Did you um
[2:14:52]>> I mean I can't let's put it this way. If he did I have no recollection of it. I mean I'm sure he must have said this is all whatever he said or it's nothing or
[2:15:01]whatever. I mean I just don't have any I just don't have any memory. I mean I just I was I was with Ted my I was like
[2:15:11]gone. I plus I just didn't want to know either I suppose. So, you don't know firsthand why the US attorney in Florida
[2:15:22]made the deal that he did? Meaning, you weren't part of that discussion along the way. Like, Mr. Epstein didn't say, "I'm getting a good deal," or, you know, I something's happening with the case
[2:15:34]that's very good. You were you you to the extent you know anything about it, it's just from what you've heard or read from others, not from Mr. Epstein. Is that right? >> He never talked about the nonprosecution
[2:15:44]directly with me. No. But um he did >> but it's still enforceable as to her. >> I mean he never said hey do are you
[2:15:54]happy with this deal like that? But I understood >> I mean he never he never enjoined me to
[2:16:04]the MPA. But I understand that he included me specifically and I'll tell you why. >> Well it's okay. You don't need to get into that. No. Yeah. I'm not I don't
[2:16:14]want to talk about the legal the the what's on appeal. I'm just >> No, I what the the reason for my question just to be I'm not trying to hide something, but there's there's a
[2:16:24]very strong belief that he got a very good deal and that and and that he should she he should have been sentenced to more time or got a different sentence
[2:16:36]from the feds than a nonprosecution agreement. And I'm not asking you to opine on that, but I'm wondering whether um he ever talked to you about that, but it sounds like he didn't
[2:16:47]>> that he got a good deal. No, I think actually well his comments that I've read was that he didn't get a good deal. And I think that the you know when he fought it so hard is because he didn't think he did.
[2:16:58]>> When when he was serving his sentence, were you ever were you around during that time? like when he was allowed to leave during the day or travel during the day. >> I never called him. I never saw him and
[2:17:10]I never went to the jail. >> Um, so I'm going to ask you questions that you shouldn't read into them. I just want to know whether you whe whether
[2:17:21]they they resonate with you. Um, have you ever had any contact with um any representative that you know of from MSAD, the Israeli intelligence agency? Can you
[2:17:32]ask me that again? >> Has have you ever had any contact with an individual that you understand to be from MSAD, an Israeli intelligence agency? >> Well, not deliberately. >> Pardon me?
[2:17:43]>> Not deliberately. >> Okay. Um, and did you know, we asked this, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but just to put a finer point on it, did you ever know that Mr. Did you ever, were you ever told, do you
[2:17:54]ever think that Mr. Epstein was getting any money from any intelligence agency, including MSAD? I Well, I don't believe so, but I
[2:18:04]wouldn't know. I mean, I would be very surprised if you did. I don't think so. No, we've talked about a lot of names and
[2:18:15]I'm sure we've there's some that we haven't covered. Are there any um foreign nationals? So, right now we've talked about um
[2:18:25]some British the royal family a little bit and and maybe high society folks in Britain. Were there any international um
[2:18:35]businessmen or politicians that that had a very close relationship or a close relationship with Mr. Epstein that we haven't already talked about? >> Off the top of my head, I can think of
[2:18:49]the Hood Barack. >> Did you said that Mr. At some point in the mid to late 90s, he
[2:19:00]started taking testosterone. Did you ever know him to take any other drugs? >> No. I mean, he took pills for his heart, I
[2:19:12]think, but I don't No other no substances. >> What do you know anything about his heart condition? And I know we talked about this at, you know, 9:45 this
[2:19:23]morning, but do you do anything about his heart conditioning beyond that you understood he had a heart condition that affected his ability to um to have sex? >> Other than what he told me, no, he never
[2:19:34]shared anything, but he did take pills. I don't know. I don't know anything above that. And like I said, he did the testosterone, which made him mean.
[2:19:44]>> And we're jumping around a little bit. Sorry. Um, do you know someone named Donald Bar? >> No. >> He is I can represent to you. Um, was
[2:19:55]the former headmaster of the Dalton school which you mentioned earlier. >> All right. >> Um, do you remember any conversations with Mr. Estee about um a book that Mr.
[2:20:06]Bar wrote called Space Relations? >> I've never heard of that. >> About aliens and sex. No. Um,
[2:20:17]>> do you know whether well have you ever met the former attorney general of the United States, Bill Barr? >> No. >> Um, do you remember whether Mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came
[2:20:28]up in conversations you had with Mr. Epstein? >> I don't I don't recall any. >> Okay. Um, did you have a relationship or No,
[2:20:42]I'm using relationship and I appreciate you don't like that word. Did do you have did you know um Mr. Epstein's um brother Mark Epste? >> Yes.
[2:20:53]>> How did you know him? >> Through Jeffrey. >> Um, how would you describe your rel your relationship? Close, friendly? >> My personal? >> Yes.
[2:21:02]Um, not that close, but friendly enough. I mean, you know. >> How was Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with his brother Mark from what you
[2:21:14]observed? >> I mean, they were brotherly, but I think look, I don't know. I I don't know. They had
[2:21:26]periods when they were closer and then when they weren't. I think sometimes uh Epstein found his brother irritating.
[2:21:36]>> Um and I think I know the answer is given what you just said about Bill Bar, but did you ever hear any
[2:21:47]from Mr. Epstein or anybody else that that Bill Bar had any role in Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida or any role in that process with
[2:21:58]Mr. A Costa. >> I never heard that. [Applause] >> Um I think you said this in an interview, but if I'm wrong,
[2:22:09]forgive me. Um do you do you have a view of of Mr. Epstein um of of whether he committed suicide or whether something
[2:22:20]else happened? >> Can Can we take a break? >> Yeah, sure. Yeah, we can break. Yeah, sure. Actually, it's a good time to take a break anyway cuz this will be our last
[2:22:31]one of the day. >> All right, so we're going to take a break at it's 2:53, Thursday, July 24th. We are continuing with the recorded
[2:22:41]profer of Miss Maxwell. The time is now 3:10 p.m. Thursday, July 24th. [Music]
[2:22:50]Um, my colleagues alerted me to a couple questions I think I may have forgotten to ask you. Um, one is, sorry, I'm just going through my notes.
[2:23:06]Well, let we talked a few minutes ago about this birthday book that there's been press about. I understand you don't remember anything with President Trump or a lot about the book. Anyway, um, do
[2:23:17]you remember asking President Trump to submit a letter for that? >> I do not. Um,
[2:23:26]and do you remember um would you have been the one to do that or could somebody else would somebody else have done that? >> Um,
[2:23:37]I did ask some people I don't remember Mr. Trump. I don't remember who I did ask but Epstein also asked people himself directly. >> So it could have happened that way if it
[2:23:47]happened at all. trying to find all the guy. [Applause]
[2:24:00]>> Where is it? >> You mentioned Ahub Barack. >> Yes. >> What was his involvement? >> Um, this would have been in the later
[2:24:11]2000s. So, I do not know um how they met, but I do know that that they I don't know if friendly would be the
[2:24:22]right word. I don't I don't know that, but I know that they saw each other. And mainly because um my father, you know, anything that touches Israel
[2:24:34]or uh the state of Israel, I'm always interested in because my father loved Israel and and so I pay attention to it
[2:24:43]and we have ties to you know to Israel. >> When you say it was later though >> ties meaning friends and family relations >> was the president was Mr. Brock Prince
[2:24:53]Brock do you know what the nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein? >> I don't >> do you know were you ever with them
[2:25:03]together? I I think I met I have a memory of meeting a hood, but I don't know if he was with Epstein or I I don't remember. I just know that I did see him
[2:25:14]and I I'm trying struggling to remember the context around it. But if I if I'm sure it happened, but it must have been very brief because I I don't have any
[2:25:23]serious memory of it, any like deep memory of it. >> And maybe this is obviously >> and maybe it comes also because I've read it in the press that maybe something that brought it to my memory.
[2:25:33]So that's also I mean I'm also I think the press has been very contaminating. So I just it's hard sometimes to separate those stories from you know
[2:25:42]your memory sometimes. >> Do you know um a British gymnast by the name of Heather Man? >> Yes. >> Did Did she
[2:25:53]>> I didn't know she was a gymnast. >> Oh, okay. I'm I'm reading something that says she was a gymnast, but don't please don't assume that that's correct based upon my words. Okay. Um, did she ever
[2:26:04]travel with you andor Mr. Epstein? >> I Yeah, she did actually. I think that she might have been one of Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point. >> Um, what again? I know we're talking
[2:26:15]about time periods that are vast. What time period would that have been? >> Like after you like since 2000?
[2:26:24]>> I want to say I don't know. Could be the 90. Could be the 90s. I don't know. But I mean, listen, there are people that pop out of the woodwork all the time. I just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend
[2:26:36]in 93 and 94. He obviously was very busy. >> Um, >> where she's flying. >> Well, there's that.
[2:26:48]>> Did someone named Mark Middleton? >> Yes, I remember him. He was um in the Mr. Clinton's administration. President
[2:26:58]Clinton's administ I think. And how do you do you know him? >> Well, I met him and that is I met him through Mr. Epste. >> Um, and do you was he
[2:27:09]from what you observe, was he a friend or business acquaintance with Mr. Epstein? >> Um, I mean, I only saw him a handful of
[2:27:20]times, but I did see him with him. I mean, he seemed friendly. I I don't know if I would characterize I mean having seen him briefly I don't know how to characterize that. >> Do you know whether he like flew on
[2:27:31]airplanes with Mr. Epstein? Did he visit the island? Do you know anything about that their relations but as it relates to that? >> I never I don't have any recollection of seeing Middleton at the island.
[2:27:42]>> Um how about former US Senator George Mitchell? >> Yeah, I do remember George. >> What do you remember about him? >> I traveled with him. We went to the most
[2:27:53]memorable I went to well I I was friendly with his wife start with that with Heather and Heather was in New York so I hung out with her a few times we have dinners
[2:28:04]and I just friendly I would say >> separately with separately from her husband I'm was friends with Heather I met I met Heather through her husband but we became friends >> you became friends with with Heather
[2:28:16]>> yes >> was Mr. Epstein friends with um Mr. Mitchell. >> Yes. >> Did they travel together besides New York? Did they travel to the island or to New Mexico?
[2:28:26]>> I don't remember George ever at the island, but the most memorable check I I do recall with Senator was to Italy. >> Was to where? >> To Italy. >> Ah, okay. >> We went to Rome
[2:28:38]>> as um the four of you. So, Heather and Mr. Mitchell and you and Mr. Epste. >> That's my recollection. >> And what were you there for? This well
[2:28:48]the most memorable aspect of that trip is we went to the Vatican. It was extraordinary. But the most extraordinary thing was going to the to
[2:28:56]the archives and holding Henry V8's um document to the Pope asking his divorce.
[2:29:06]>> Um do you know the former president of Colombia Andre Pastana? >> Yes. >> How do you know him? I met Andreas Pastana in a pub in
[2:29:19]Dublin. >> And did he travel with Mr. Estein that you know?
[2:29:30]>> Um I don't I don't know if if I don't know if he ever was ever on the plane. I don't know if he ever I don't
[2:29:40]think he ever came to the island. But um I went two places with um Andreas
[2:29:50]Pastano. One was to Colombia and Epstein came to that and the other was to Cuba and Epstein was there and Pastrano was I think was there. >> And what were the purposes of traveling
[2:30:01]to to Colombia then Cuba? Um, I'm a helicopter pilot and
[2:30:17]Andres is a helicopter pilot and um, we just became friends and
[2:30:27]I flew a Blackhawk in Colombia. >> And how about to Cuba? Um my I have a
[2:30:36]friend of mine who uh was the cigar distributor for um Monte Cristos maybe I can't remember
[2:30:46]which cigar it was and uh so we went there and he organized the trip and um we met Pet Castro.
[2:30:56]>> When was that approximate? had to be
[2:31:09]had to be 2002 2003. >> Okay. >> Something like that. I think
[2:31:19]>> uh there's some more names that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type of questions just but as far as a a catch all there's been a tremendous
[2:31:30]amount of um public information about all kinds of names including some of the folks we talked about today and their relationship with Mr. Epstein andor you.
[2:31:42]Um, for for any of the folks that we've talked about today, did you observe them doing anything improper with Mr.
[2:31:52]Epstein, whether with massuses or with women who were or girls who were traveling or at the residences that they were at or at the parties that they were at?
[2:32:01]>> I did not ever at any time see that. Um, and for any of the names we've talked about today, and then tomorrow we'll talk about some more, but for today, um,
[2:32:13]do you recall having any conversations with anybody else where they reported to you that they had seen something that one of these individuals had done, whether someone else that works with Mr. Epstein or somebody that observed
[2:32:25]something? >> If anybody had ever reported anything, first of all, the answer to that is no. And also I just want to be clear that had anybody ever reported anything
[2:32:33]illegal or disgusting like that I would have immediately done something and I never heard it. I never saw it and no
[2:32:43]one ever ever complained to me or tears nothing like that. >> Okay. All right. So we took a break when we were talking about um Mr. Epstein and
[2:32:52]his death. Oh bless you. That's okay. Take your time. Um, so
[2:33:03]Mr. Epstein and his um, death. So you you were not obviously at the MCC during that time. Correct. >> Thank you.
[2:33:15]>> Thanks. >> Thought I would give you something blew up my nose. >> So just take some water. It's okay. No problem.
[2:33:24]Um, you were not at the MCC during that time, correct? >> I was not. >> So, you're going to tell us what you believe, but just to I just want to make
[2:33:34]sure I I understand your basis for belief is kind of what you've read and seen and your knowledge of Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew them, knew him, right?
[2:33:46]>> Um, actually there's a third component. Okay. >> The answer to that is yes. And there's a third component which is uh having
[2:33:54]experienced now uh the mismanagement and inefficiencies and total dereliction of duty at the bureau of prisons
[2:34:06]>> from BOP from okay fair. Okay. So, you know, I want to what I do want to be careful about is,
[2:34:17]you know, asking me to speculate because because anybody can do that and and I don't think that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give us your kind of opinion. But
[2:34:28]um do you think that the third point you say which is ab which is kind of a failure by the bop there's been a lot of there's OIG report there's SDNY
[2:34:40]investigation about that. Um do you so you think he was he was he did not die by suicide given all the things we just talked about? >> I do not believe he died by suicide. No.
[2:34:50]And do you believe that um do you have any speculation or view of who killed him? >> I no I don't.
[2:35:00]>> And I asked that because if you don't believe that there's any truth to the allegations of blackmail or
[2:35:11]um that he had kind of a list or that he had reasons to um have people hate him. Um, why would somebody kill him in
[2:35:21]prison? in prison where I am. They will kill you
[2:35:35]or they will pay somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of commissery is about the
[2:35:49]going rate for a hit with a lock today. >> So that goes to the the third reason which is kind of the >> mismanagement or the the shortfallings
[2:36:00]or shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisons. Yes. >> Um, which is a little bit different than my my question is which is um
[2:36:10]do you think there was somebody on the outside of prison? So, putting aside what could happen on the inside on the outside of prison who would who wanted him dead so badly that he would have or
[2:36:21]she would have, you know, caused him to be killed on the inside. >> I think that's I I don't see that. I think is it possible? Of course, it's possible, but I don't know of any reason
[2:36:32]why. And I don't believe in the blackmail or in any of this. I don't think Epstein had a hit on like that. If it if it is indeed murder, I believe it
[2:36:42]was an internal situation. >> Yeah. So, you're not you don't have any reason, firsthand knowledge or even speculation, it sounds like, to think that um
[2:36:53]that he was if that he was killed to kind of silence him or to keep him from going public about people he he knew about. >> I don't no because I I I think that is
[2:37:05]just part of the story that's been created that started back in 2008 9.
[2:37:15]Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's the point like I I don't want I don't think there's value in talking, you know, there's there's been a lot of there's a lot of information about what happened, you know, at the MCC and but what is
[2:37:26]important to me is is whether, you know, if if is the idea that that he didn't die by suicide, that's one thing. But if if to
[2:37:38]the extent that folks believe that he was murdered to keep him quiet or because he had information on rich and powerful people, that's what I do. You have any reason to believe that that's true?
[2:37:49]>> I do not have any reason to believe that. And I I also think it's ludicrous because if that I also happen to think if that is what they wanted, they would have had plenty of opportunity when he
[2:38:00]wasn't in jail. And if they were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he would have been a very easy target
[2:38:10]>> in the time. So we've talked about a lot of time all the way up through 200910 and then your the time that after Mr. Repson was arrested. When's the last
[2:38:20]time you spoke with him? Um
[2:38:32]maybe 2016 2017 maybe 2016 2015 2016 2017 in that area I believe.
[2:38:42]>> And what what when you're thinking about that last time was that you had talk been talking to him a lot and then you stopped or was that a oneoff time and it was infrequent?
[2:38:52]>> I I I really wasn't in communication. The only communications I had with him was in with regards to the civil suits that the civil suit that I found myself in, the defamation suit I found myself
[2:39:02]in. I needed help. I needed information and I I didn't have what I needed. And so that was really what it was that what
[2:39:17]drove it was me trying to get myself out of this situation which I ultimately led to where I am today. And so when when
[2:39:27]all that when that I don't remember even if I stopped talking to him before that I think he was I thought he was angry with me anyway. He didn't like what I did and I wasn't wasn't interested in
[2:39:37]what he had to say to me. And >> what what what did you think he was angry with you about? >> I think he was angry that I had even said that uh I had referred to to her
[2:39:47]being a liar. He said I should have not said anything. But >> um when when
[2:39:56]the civil suits that were ongoing before Mr. Epstein's death >> Yes. Um, did your lawyers coordinate with his lawyers like in
[2:40:08]discovery and things like that on anything? >> I don't I don't think we coordinated in dis I don't I'm not sure. I I don't want to misspeak. >> I don't I there was some degree of
[2:40:19]communication for sure. Uh I just don't know the degree that that took place. So definitely I mean I was definitely
[2:40:30]hoping for him to be more helpful and I was definitely coordinating is not a good word because that sounds like I was trying to make align myself. That's not where we were going here. But I was definitely trying
[2:40:41]to get help as in documents or information that I could use to defend myself. That's 100% true.
[2:40:49]and the degree to which that took place. I'm not I don't I don't recall. There was definitely some of that though. I don't I don't want to mislead. >> And we touched on this earlier, but I
[2:41:00]just want to I don't think we really ran it to ground maybe as much as we could. Like going up through that
[2:41:08]time, you know, so in the 16, 17, 18 up until the time he's arrested. Um had your view or your um understanding of
[2:41:19]what had happened changed? Um meaning did you believe that in the late 90s or early 2000s when when
[2:41:30]he started, you know, behaving much differently, did you did you believe what you were hearing about him at that point? my views.
[2:41:43]I didn't like the people he was with anyway. So, I I I don't find um
[2:41:52]how do I say this? I don't like I like people who my age or older and I don't find the society of
[2:42:02]all the companionship of younger people who are young people, I suppose, is really that
[2:42:13]enjoyable. So, I don't like the company that he chose to be with. And so, I just was kind of boring and fundamentally
[2:42:25]uninteresting. That's probably the nicest way I can say. >> Yeah. Okay. So, I I think what we should do is just
[2:42:36]spend a few minutes talking about tomorrow. Um, everything was great today. I think that it was very helpful and and I appreciate you
[2:42:46]um trying to be as complete as you can. I think tomorrow you've said a few things today about materials that you
[2:42:55]brought. Um, when we're done, we'll give you a few minutes with with Mr. Marcus to to if there's things that you want to show him that you think we should see.
[2:43:06]Like I said, I'm not asking you to corroborate anything. If I was asking you to corroborate something, I would tell you. But if there's something you think that that you don't think that the government has seen or you think that is
[2:43:17]important for me to see, um, let Mr. Marcus know and and and he can he can share it with me. Um, tomorrow I we'll we'll certainly have
[2:43:27]some follow-on questions when we we all think about tonight and and I think you will too. You know, we can we can all think about stuff we've talked about. We covered a lot of different areas. We are
[2:43:37]I do want to talk about more about you. So, um, by design today, we wanted to focus on Mr. Epstein and talk about, you
[2:43:47]know, kind of, well, everything under the sun that we've gone through today. Um, I do think it's important when when we all evaluate what you've said today
[2:43:58]and and kind of your story to understand to also understand your why you're here, right? So, you you were indicted, you
[2:44:07]were charged, you went to trial. Um, and and I want to do that in a way that gives you an opportunity to to to say to kind of say your piece or to say what
[2:44:17]you what you haven't said before. Um, but also understanding that there was people who took the witness stand and swore to tell the truth and and testified about you and what you did and
[2:44:28]what they think you saw and what they heard you say and um and and I I'm not I said to Mr. Marcus, I'm not trying to
[2:44:36]create a um kind of a she said she said situation or a he said she said situation, but I do want to hear from
[2:44:46]you about your conduct because um it's important I think for when we evaluate what you say and how you say it and and and
[2:44:57]um your recollection of things to also to talk about that. So, we're going we'll do that tomorrow. I want to talk about, you know, the circumstance leading up to your arrest. There's a lot of I think
[2:45:09]misinformation or there's a lot of information out there that I don't know whether it's misinformation, but about the time from um you know, 2019 up until the time that
[2:45:19]that you were that you were arrested. And then, like I said, that'll take us through lunch tomorrow and then and then we'll be done. I'm not I I don't have a plan. I didn't know that I was coming
[2:45:31]here until this week. Okay. So, I'm not there isn't like a um we don't have like a schedule of what happens next or what happens. Um but the but that's not a
[2:45:42]negative thing. I'm just saying that that's so so you shouldn't take the lack of a a next step as anything other than we don't have a next step yet. So, um >> may I say something? >> Of course. Yes.
[2:45:53]>> I just would like to put out there that I also focused on how I think the president got swept into some of this
[2:46:01]>> unnecessarily by the way and I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I certainly don't subscribe to all the
[2:46:11]all of everything that I see but I do believe that there is animous in some areas that may have
[2:46:21]contributed to how the the use of the president to harm him that I find deeply offensive.
[2:46:32]And whilst I can't obviously say um definitively that that is what it is, I would like to show you what I see so
[2:46:43]that you can evaluate it and do with that as you see fit >> if it needs to be addressed. I've seen it. It struck me and I would like to give it to you for what it's worth. >> Okay.
[2:46:54]>> Does that seem something that I >> Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. I don't like that. >> Okay, that's fine. That's great. Um, okay. So, why don't we stop for today?
[2:47:05]I'll give you a little bit of time to chat and then um see you in the morning. Thanks. Great. >> This will conclude the recorded proper
[2:47:15]interview for Thursday, July 24th. We will continue tomorrow, Friday, July 25th. The time is 3:34. [Applause]
[2:47:24]Good morning. Today is Friday, July 25th. The time is 9:24 a.m. My name is Spencer Rhorn. I'm the assistant special agent in charge of FBI New York, and we
[2:47:36]are here for a recorded profer agreement with Ms. Maxwell. >> Good morning. Good morning, Miss Maxwell. How are you? >> Good morning. >> Good. So the profer agreement we signed
[2:47:48]yesterday I um I just there's there's a place on it for us to all kind of initial it's exactly the same document and you'll see your
[2:47:59]your signature if you can just initial right to the left of right here >> right there >> and then Mr. Marcus will initial as well.
[2:48:10]>> Thank you. And just to kind of um before we get going, I'll just say that exactly the same folks that were here
[2:48:21]when we met yesterday are here today. So there's no I'm not going to do formal introductions because it's exactly the
[2:48:29]same group of folks. Um so we're we're continuing Miss Maxwell our discussion of yesterday. Um, and the same
[2:48:40]the same kind of rules apply. If you will take breaks, if you need to talk to Mr. Marcus or your lawyers, no, absolutely no problem. Just let me know.
[2:48:50]Um, I'll try to ask my questions in a coherent manner, but if there's anything that I say that's confusing, definitely um, interrupt me.
[2:49:01]>> I will. Thank you. So, I I think the easiest thing to um to start with is is there anything that we talked about yesterday that um we're
[2:49:12]going to go through some more names? I think that we we that's that's one of the places that we that we interrupted just because there's there's a lot of names, but aside from additional names,
[2:49:23]is there anything that you wanted to kind of follow up on that we talked about yesterday or anything that you thought maybe you remember more of or or not? Um
[2:49:33]some more names uh did come to me in the night and I did have uh some um additional memories um just for clarity.
[2:49:45]I I believe I said that I couldn't think of anybody who I may have asked from um Mara Lago but then I I realized that I I
[2:49:56]was the allegation at least is that I met in Mara Lago. So I felt that I needed to address that and I didn't want to leave that hanging cuz that seems weird under circumstances
[2:50:08]>> and also but I couldn't remember anyone and that maybe you know it's a long period of time. So the issue is not that I'm trying to not say, but I just don't I don't remember anybody that I would
[2:50:19]have, but it's not impossible that I might have asked someone from I >> I don't I don't know exactly what you said yesterday, but I don't think what you said yesterday is different than
[2:50:30]what you just said. So yes, >> okay. I just wanted to be I just didn't want to feel that I had said no to something and that it didn't and >> definitely >> has said that she was working at Mara
[2:50:42]Lago and that you received a treatment of her from her at some point and that you recruited her to to to meet Mr. Epstein. Do you know affirmatively whether that's true or false or do you
[2:50:53]just not have a memory either way? I I really don't believe it's true, but I know that I did go to spars and if I met someone, I did ask if they're
[2:51:04]home. So, I don't it in the realms of possibility it could have, but I have no memory of it and I I don't believe that it's how it went down, but I don't want to.
[2:51:14]>> Okay. So, I want to talk about we talked a little bit yesterday about the financial part of your relationship with Mr. Epstein kind of being on payroll, for lack of a better word, for many,
[2:51:26]many years, starting around 25,000 and ending up at around 250,000 um per year. Um there's, as you know
[2:51:36]from your trial, there's banking information that shows a ton of money being sent to you from Mr. Epstein um over the years in in you I think
[2:51:48]totaling something like $30 million something like this. What's what's the um why was that money sent to you? Like what was that for?
[2:51:59]>> Well, first of all, I don't I dispute the characterization that the money was sent to me. >> Okay. So, tell me what I I am I am I am stuck with the the witnesses at trial
[2:52:10]and and what was said at trial on that issue. So, what what what what is the um what do you dispute about that? >> Well, I believe I I don't have full recollection. I'm not even sure I ever
[2:52:22]saw what they accuse me of, but my uh belief is that that money also contained money that was for a helicopter, for
[2:52:32]instance, that I never owned and I was never mine. And >> in other words, money was sent to you that you then used to purchase things or
[2:52:44]>> Well, I'm not even sure that I purchased it. So, the accounts those accounts would be controlled by his accountants and >> even accounts in your name you're saying or one of your entities.
[2:52:54]>> Well, I'm not even sure I knew of all the entities. I'm not I don't it maybe I did contemporaneously, but I simply wouldn't know today. So, if there was an entity,
[2:53:06]let's say account X, if I really set that up myself or whether they said we're doing this and the money's coming, or whatever, but in no um
[2:53:18]substantive way, I can't think of the right word. >> Did you have control of >> I had no control is what I'm saying. So when when the government when there was testimony or the government admitted
[2:53:27]evidence that showed, for example, $5 million in 2002 coming from Epstein in to you. Okay.
[2:53:38]What you're saying is that that mayor that that happened, but that the U there wasn't money that he wasn't giving you money. I I'm not going to say that for everything because maybe there were
[2:53:49]accounts that money was sent to me, but I can say that I've know like the helicopter I can definitively say. I'd
[2:53:57]have to look at all of them to be um accurate for you, but um to explain how or why I could be receiving monies, and
[2:54:08]I certainly did. So, I'm not disputing all of it. But when you said let's go back to helicop why would why did money have to go into your accounts or account that was controlled by others but in
[2:54:19]your name to like purchase a helicopter? >> Oh that's a very good question. Um I I'm not sure I know the answer to that. Um I don't
[2:54:30]>> so let me ask this maybe a different way that gets to the the issue right so the accusation by the government based upon
[2:54:40]the evidence they collected is that Epste paid you millions and millions of dollars over the years and the reason why he paid you that is because you were performing an extraordinary service for
[2:54:52]him by recruiting young women. um many of whom were underage to to um so that he could sexually abuse them. Okay, that's their that's their allegation.
[2:55:03]Okay. From what you said yesterday and from what I've reviewed about you and Mr. Epstein,
[2:55:14]he paid for a lot in your life. Your flights, >> where you stayed with him. I mean, he didn't expect you to reimburse him along the way for food and you know, so he
[2:55:25]took care of you for many years. >> That is true. >> On top of that, he actually paid you a salary as we talked about 25,000 took 250,000. What else did he give you or what what
[2:55:37]purchase like was there a time when he gave you a million or $500,000 as a bonus or what what financial benefit did you receive from him besides what we've already talked about? We don't have to talk about what you know.
[2:55:48]>> Okay, I got it. I got it. Okay. So my goal always uh was to become independent independently financially
[2:56:00]secure uh and work for myself. I've never been one to not work. And in in
[2:56:08]that regard uh over the course of my friendship and my working relationship with Epstein, I expressed to him my desire to be
[2:56:19]independent of him everywhere, just to be freestanding. And that in with that in mind, I wanted to have my own
[2:56:29]businesses or my own um my own money coming in independent and separate from any salary that I received from him.
[2:56:41]And I needed that for my self-esteem. I've never been uh I mean obviously salary and it was a very generous one. Please, I'm not belittling the sum of
[2:56:50]money cuz it's huge, but um I I was brought up to work and I was brought up to be my own, you know,
[2:57:02]the first time. So I would either propose businesses to him or he would actually suggest why didn't I do something in the first deal that we did
[2:57:13]or the first uh business that we had or I had and that he financed for me. So he gave he lended me all the money to enable me to
[2:57:24]do this and then I reap the profits which I I don't remember now because we varied over the deals that we did that I
[2:57:32]would give him 50% or 25. It was sort of >> it was random. So and I can tell you what it is. So it was in um Palm Beach actually and it was in real estate and
[2:57:43]they sold um what was the grounds originally of uh an estate called the FIPS estate and then they they converted
[2:57:53]the land that came with that estate into uh houses and um I did I think two or
[2:58:03]maybe I can't remember now but certainly one and maybe two possibly three I don't think so I think that then were flipped and there was a profit. So that would be an example of
[2:58:15]that. But I didn't have the money. So he lent me the funds to do that business transaction and then I reap the profits. >> And so but when
[2:58:26]>> and that's millions of dollars. >> When a when a financial investigator like the FBI looks at accounts, they don't know kind of the conversations you're having. They just see the money. Right. >> So in those cases when that happened
[2:58:38]when he would when he financed that with you would he send money to you? So does that explain some of the money? Like I guess >> I believe I think it does. I think for
[2:58:49]instance there were two um Gullwing Mercedes that that they did with Mercedes and Aston Martin. You can look up I think if I'm right that had all the
[2:59:01]doors that would come up like this that were only very limited number that were made. So, I knew that we could get those and would flip them like within 24
[2:59:10]hours, for example. Um, also, um, my, uh, here's another example of something that you guys wouldn't have known about is I
[2:59:21]became a banker. I got my series 63, series 67 uh, banking license and became a broker for like a new minute. And then because
[2:59:32]I was day trading everything I had I day traded with through an account and I think I was lucky more than smart but I made quite a lot of money doing that.
[2:59:44]And so >> when was that like what >> that's again that's in the '9s again. I don't I think well you can find it cuz it'll be my banking license right that'll be
[2:59:55]something that you can look up probably. So what whatever that is is and I I just don't remember when that is. I'm sorry. >> So okay. So
[3:00:05]>> and so so for example, I was I was doing really really really well. And so he was like how do you do that? How are you what do you why are you investing in I don't know Apple when nobody liked
[3:00:17]Apple. This is you know before Apple or Microsoft. I didn't know Bill Gates, so this is not related to him, but um my family >> don't charge with insider.
[3:00:27]>> Please don't. No, I'm trying. I'm not trying to suggest that. Oh goodness. Please no. I I had >> that was just a joke. Okay. >> Yeah. No, I
[3:00:38]um but uh my my going back to my family, I my dad had given me an account when I was 12 and I had had always an interest
[3:00:50]in business and finance, not not terribly sophisticated. I'm not suggesting that. >> Um and so I like I like to trade and so
[3:00:59]I I did and I did well and so then I would tell him what I was doing. Now whether he did or he didn't he told me he matched me in some other accounts that he had because he did a lot of he
[3:01:11]my observation to go back to what he did I observed him personally and have recollection personal recollection of
[3:01:18]him trading uh money a lot tens of millions hundreds of millions of dollars >> that was that he was trading for other
[3:01:29]people or that was his own money >> I I want also to um clarify something for you or clarify or underline. Wexner
[3:01:38]was in my opinion his closest friend in this time period from when I met him in
[3:01:45]uh 91 right all the way until well till I don't know cuz I I wasn't that um
[3:01:56]friendly with well I did travel with Mr. Wexner. But um Epstein told me that uh Wexner didn't want to be seen too much
[3:02:06]with me because of my family problems. >> The the problems that your father's company had with embezzlement or allegations of
[3:02:18]>> Yes, that's what I'm talking about. And now actually today, not contemporaneously, but today I don't believe that that's even true. I think
[3:02:27]it was used as a means to not have me travel with him to Ohio or whatever. It was just a way to park me. And I believe
[3:02:38]that now because within the discovery there was a lot of well not a lot but there was some indications that he would actively tell other people to lie to me
[3:02:47]or conceal things from me and that he never loved me and I wasn't his type. That's in the discovery somewhere. So,
[3:02:57]okay. So, the government had evidence that even as late as 2007,
[3:03:06]he paid you a lot of money. Um, >> what was that? What was the money? >> Like several millions and millions of dollars in 2007. Um, $7.4 million, I think.
[3:03:18]>> What was that for? Was it Was that the head of >> That was That's my question. I don't I don't know. >> So, so in 2007, That was That's probably the helicopter. That could have been That could have been the helicopter, the
[3:03:28]Sakski. Those big chunks like that. I don't I don't I don't personally have any memory of receiving a check from him
[3:03:37]for $7 million. I just I just don't. But I I would have to I know I So the answer to your question to be >> remember if it went into your pocket and
[3:03:49]>> I would remember if it went I would he never paid me to for services that you just described $7 million to for any nefarious reason. I think I understand
[3:04:01]what you've said about being on the payroll and and help him helping you with businesses and giving you a lot of life things along the way. You travel
[3:04:12]with him, you ate with him is, you know, um but but there is the this these massive amounts of money, one time payments that >> I don't you'd have to trace that, right?
[3:04:22]So I I don't believe that came into my account or I had any control. I have no memory of that. I have no no >> Well, but if there's records that show it coming into your account, it sounds like what you're saying is that not
[3:04:34]putting aside your you have no memory of that money being yours. Like you didn't that money is not >> No, I wouldn't be like, "Oh, yippy, let me go. I got $7 million. I'm going to go buy myself a yacht." No. Or, I don't
[3:04:45]know, something else or move it to some other. No, I don't think I don't think you look you'll have to check. Well, obviously you will, but I don't think
[3:04:57]you'll find that money moving in any to any account other mine or it shouldn't show I don't believe anyway as far as I rec it wouldn't show me spending it. >> Right. >> Does that make sense? >> Okay.
[3:05:09]>> Um, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I I think if I don't think there's any dispute by anybody, even your your lawyers at trial, that >> that the money went in
[3:05:19]>> $7 million in when? What year? Well, there's a several years in 2007 >> and >> um it's the 2002 there was $5 million that that you were paid in 2002.
[3:05:29]>> Oh, well, I'd have to I don't I don't remember, but Okay. So, there's there would be another large sum, but it wouldn't have come from him later, but nothing to do.
[3:05:38]>> The biggest one was in 1999. There's over 18 million 18.3 million. >> I I don't know what that is. So what but
[3:05:50]you but what you're saying it sounds like and and then if if you don't know we we're going to we can move on but when we're talking about 18.3 million in
[3:05:58]99 5 million in 3 years later in 2002 um 7.4 million in 2007 um that those that money adds up to
[3:06:08]around $30 million you were not paid that by Mr. Epstein meaning that's not money you received for your benefit even if it was put into your accounts. I don't believe any of
[3:06:19]that was my money. Now, I do I just like I said, we did do these things with the cars and we >> as as I don't I don't know if any of that
[3:06:29]money some of it if it moves some of that may have come from the car or a house that was sold that I had a interest in with him. That's possible. But but I don't think this money is mine. >> But also the record should reflect too
[3:06:40]that there were times Gilen's name was used. For example, heir Gilen. Her name was in the name of the entity. It had nothing to do with her. And if you pulled signatures, >> yeah,
[3:06:52]>> there's no >> No, my what I'm trying to just make sure I that I understand is that the idea that you were paid $30 million
[3:07:03]between 99 and 2007 in order to um by Mr. Rep to reward you for recruiting young women. That is and you're you're saying that is
[3:07:14]categorically completely false. >> That is categorically false. Correct. >> Um okay. So, I want to um
[3:07:33]just we went through several individuals yesterday and and I want to go through just a couple of more names and ask if you if you know them and if
[3:07:43]you do know them, how you know them? Um do you know um Elon Musk? >> I do. >> And how did you meet Mr. Musk? Um, I met
[3:07:55]him um in um I don't remember the year but it's going to be in 200 10 11 something like that I think if my
[3:08:09]memory serves and um I was at uh an event for uh Sergey Brin
[3:08:19]the found co-founder of Google um and Sergey they had arranged for it was for his birthday and we were or a
[3:08:30]bunch of us I don't even remember how many we were but it not many of us maybe I don't know if I say 40 I I could be
[3:08:39]wrong if it was 30 or 50 I don't remember I'm sorry >> went to um another friend's island
[3:08:48]somebody called Mr. bigots in in the Caribbean and not with Epstein. He was not there um to celebrate Sergey's
[3:08:58]birthday and we were there together for I want to say three or four days something like that in my memory and um
[3:09:07]Mr. Musk was a present for that >> and that was the first time you met him as far as >> as far as I remember. Yes. >> Did you meet did you know his brother?
[3:09:17]Mr. Musk's brother. Um, I don't I don't know if I've ever met him. I know that he has a brother and um, but I don't think I met him.
[3:09:28]>> Aside from that time in around 2010 on the island of the Caribbean for a couple days, did you have you seen do do you know Mr. Musk beyond that time?
[3:09:39]>> Um, we met at um I was at the Oscars and we met at the Oscars. >> What year was that? Earlier or later? >> It was post that event. I believe.
[3:09:50]>> And do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Mr. Musk? >> I I believe they did. And the only reason I say it's not from my memory, but because I saw I I think I saw my
[3:10:02]memory is that in Discovery they were communicating on email. >> So you you have no personal knowledge of that. It's just what you've what you've seen from the press or from Discovery
[3:10:13]>> and I believe his brother as well actually. >> Excuse me. um Mr. Musk's brother as well, but I I don't my like I said, my
[3:10:22]memory is not um is it's not as good as I would like it to be. And I just want to say that. >> Do you you mentioned I think yesterday
[3:10:32]in passing um not in passing but as part of another answer um Andrew Cuomo. >> Yes. >> Did you know Mr. Cuomo? >> Um well only because he was married to
[3:10:44]Kerry. >> Yes. Okay. And um I think uh I knew his brother as well. What's it? He has a brother, right? He's on TV. >> What's his name? >> Um Chris,
[3:10:56]>> right? >> Yes. The You mean the TV the former TV anchor or the TV anchor? Chris. Okay. >> So, but um I would say just socially, not I'm not close friends or anything,
[3:11:07]but because we I was friends with Kerry and I met him a few times and I've certainly met his brother as well a few times. And the same questions that I asked
[3:11:18]about Mr. Mosque. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Andrew Cuomo or Chris Cuomo or um Miss Kennedy, your friend?
[3:11:28]>> Um I I don't think so. >> And so you never you don't recall any of those three individuals like flying on Mr. Epstein's plane or visiting him in
[3:11:39]Palm Beach or at the island? >> No. Um, I think you mentioned former Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday, but if if not, do you know Mr. Kerry or No,
[3:11:49]>> I have met him, but I I don't know if Mr. Epste met him. I met him at only well really I I can't even pro probably characterize that as a meeting but I was
[3:12:00]very very involved in the ocean uh at work through the you asked me yesterday about Terramar and um if if I recall
[3:12:09]right I met Mr. uh the secretary that way through the ocean, but he wouldn't know who I am, I doubt. I don't think >> Do you know whether Well, do you know um
[3:12:21]former Senator Ted Kennedy? >> Yes. >> Um and does is that through your own life or through Mr. Epstein? >> My life.
[3:12:30]>> Do you know whether um Mr. Epste County? >> I don't believe so. And so for the folks we just talked about, so former Secretary of State John Kerry, Ted
[3:12:41]Kennedy, um did you don't know whether Mr. knew him. So I take that to mean you have no recollection of them flying on his planes or visiting him.
[3:12:52]>> Um but um Bobby Kennedy knew him. >> Bobby the health >> Sorry, say that again about Bobby Kennedy.
[3:13:02]>> Bobby knew Mr. How do you know that? >> Cuz we went on a trip together. Was we went to um
[3:13:13]>> dinosaur bone hunting in the Dotas? >> When was that? You know, approximately. I'm not looking for an exact date, but when was that?
[3:13:24]>> That was early. That was in the early night. Well, let me back up. I knew um Bobby's wife Mary pretty well actually
[3:13:34]and before he met her. >> And just to help us, I know we're talking about a wide span of time, but what are you when when are you talking
[3:13:43]about that you knew um Mr. Kennedy's wife before they were married? So, when are we talking about that? >> Um, I uh
[3:13:54]um in 19 right to get my head straight. In um >> Well, would this have been before you met Mr. Epstein? Yes. >> Or after? Okay. So,
[3:14:06]>> I met him before I met >> So, we're talking about the 1980s. >> Oh, yes. Yes. Thank you. The 80s. >> Okay. Okay. So, we're talking about the 1980s and then
[3:14:16]>> I was the the the I had a very very long-standing boyfriend and he had his brother was uh dating Mary at the time
[3:14:28]and we were all good friends. >> And then Mr. Epstein, did did Mr. Epste meet Bobby Kennedy
[3:14:37]through you? I don't I I don't think so because um Mr. Epstein surprisingly everyone says everything happens through
[3:14:47]me. That that's just not true. I mean I think yesterday I explained that he had friends from London and those are very they were what the people would call
[3:14:58]fancy. They were fancy people. Um and but he had the same types of relationships before I met him in um in
[3:15:08]America. So when I met him, he was uh already, you know, Wexner and he had Henry and he had he was I don't know if then he was at the in the council of
[3:15:18]relations, but he was friends with Ace and you know like he he was >> he was well established. he didn't need
[3:15:28]me. And he was, you know, his Eva was um a major model. So he had all these modeling connections and friends in that
[3:15:38]business that long before I met him. >> And so the trip that you went on with Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy. Was that
[3:15:50]in the '9s and 2000s when >> I think it was in the It would have been in the um I want to say 93 94.
[3:16:00]>> Okay. So, a very long time ago. >> Very very long time ago. >> A few years into the your relationship. A few years into the time that you knew
[3:16:11]Mr. Epstein. >> Yes. I mean, I I don't want to hold myself to the dates because I really >> No, no, I'm not holding you to dates. I think I've said that a lot because I appreciate we're talking about the 80s and 90s and even
[3:16:23]>> to know I haven't had any I don't have anything to review. So I haven't had any ability to short of my legal material obviously which I you can you know I
[3:16:33]have so I came with a box work but short of that I have nothing with which to refresh well very limited stuff I should say I don't want to say nothing to refresh my mind >> understand that. Do you have any
[3:16:44]recollection of Mr. Kennedy of there being anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy and um massuses or young women
[3:16:54]on the trip you just talked about? I never saw anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy. >> And do you know whether he ever got a massage from one of the massuses? Do you know either way?
[3:17:06]>> I do not. >> But not something you remember. >> I mean, absolutely not. I mean, he Well, I mean, yesterday, if I didn't make it clear, I will reiterate today. I never
[3:17:17]ever saw any man doing something inappropriate with a woman of any age. I
[3:17:26]never saw inappropriate ev I'm not going to say you know your hands or I that to me is not inappropriate.
[3:17:36]Now somebody's inappropriate and mine may be different but we're not talking about anything that's resembles the accusations that we're
[3:17:46]discussed here. So that would be a flat note to any man. >> Did your or Mr. Epstein's relationship with Mr. with Bobby Kennedy continue
[3:17:56]into the 2000s as far as you know? >> I I would say yes. >> Um >> well mine yes >> yours with you >> with me for sure.
[3:18:07]>> And do you know whether Mr. Epstein and Mr. Kennedy Bobby Kennedy continued to have relationships into the 2000s? >> I have no personal knowledge of that. I
[3:18:17]mean I would I because >> Yeah. Here's another another thing is that everyone puts us together like a monolith. He literally had a separate loaf from me. I literally had a separate
[3:18:28]loaf from him. Now, did they say? Of course they did. I'm not That's not crazy. But he kept a lot to himself and he didn't like to share. He was not a sharer. Well, at least not with >> Mr. Epstein didn't share. You're saying
[3:18:40]>> not with me. No. >> Did you um >> do you know somebody named Cheryl Mills? You used to work in the White House as a lawyer. Yes. >> How do you know Miss Mills?
[3:18:50]>> I met Miss Mills through uh President Clinton. >> And do you remember generally the time frame that you that you met her?
[3:18:59]>> I do actually. Um >> hang on. I I'm sorry. I'm just trying to
[3:19:14]I'm trying to get my dates right >> approximately. Well, okay. I I can't get my dates right, but it's something you probably can It's going to be in the early 2000s. >> Okay.
[3:19:25]>> So, I don't recall. >> I wanted to say 2002. >> After President Clinton left office. >> Oh, yes.
[3:19:36]>> And so, it was in the 2000s. Um, >> definitely. >> And how what how did you meet her? What were the circumstances under which you met, Miss Mills? I went on a trip with the president to
[3:19:47]South America. >> With which president? >> Oh, sorry. Uh, President Clinton. >> Yeah. Okay. Just >> Sorry. >> Just want it was I just wanted to make sure it was clear. Okay. So, you went on a trip to to where?
[3:19:58]>> Latin America. >> Um, and who? And so, Miss Mills was on that trip. >> She was. >> Um, and President Clinton was on that trip. >> He was. >> Who else was on that trip?
[3:20:08]>> Doug Band. Um who worked with President Clinton? >> Yes. >> And um was Mr. Epstein? >> No. >> Um and what was the purpose of that
[3:20:19]trip? >> Um well uh the president had been I I don't know. I mean I the president met
[3:20:31]with I can't even remember every all the I don't know presidents and we we were >> but was this part of President Clinton's work after he left office with the with his foundation
[3:20:42]>> or was meaning something for him >> I don't remember when um the Clinton Global Initiative started. So, if you date me, if you give me that date, I can tell you if it was
[3:20:53]pre or post, cuz without that, I can't pin the the reason. >> Do you remember what it was for or not? >> Uh, no, I don't recall. I mean, >> yeah, that's that's Don't don't overthink or underink the reason for my
[3:21:04]questions. I I I I don't I don't have any idea why you went on that trip. So, I don't I don't know an answer that I'm keeping. >> No, I'm just trying to be as accurate as possible and give you the information. >> Why would you do you remember why you
[3:21:15]were invited to go? Like, were you were you friends with somebody? What was your role going on that trip? >> I didn't have a role.
[3:21:24]>> So, do you remember why do you remember who invited you to go? >> If probably Doug Band.
[3:21:38]>> And how did you know um Doug? >> Um because Doug and again back with Philip Lavine. Got >> it. And do you know whether he had a
[3:21:49]relationship with Mr. Epstein? >> Who? >> Doug. >> I I don't know. I mean, nothing. He I don't believe there was any relationship
[3:21:59]other than I helped. Well, without me, I don't think there would have been those flights because I was the one who asked Epstein to provide the plane for Well,
[3:22:11]certainly I remember the one to um to Africa, of course, that big trip. And I thought it was an honor and a
[3:22:22]privilege to be part of something so amazing and to have an opportunity to spend time with a man that I found truly extraordinary.
[3:22:33]>> And please, I don't mean it in any other way other than who's a former fantastic president. Um, so I was asking around the question, but I was asking like were
[3:22:44]you basically asked to go because you were kind of responsible for the plane? Not responsible is the wrong word. They they use you they were able to use you to make sure that they could you you
[3:22:55]helped them get Mr. Epste's plane for the trip. >> No, I don't even know if when I was on that. In fact, >> I think I think that trip I'm not even sure that Epstein had met the president.
[3:23:06]>> Okay. I think this was I if I'm right and I think I am I think that trip happened when Epstein and Clinton had never even not that they'd never met because Epste had gone to the White
[3:23:16]House but they had not met I'd never asked Epstein for the plane then because they'd never met and it would be weird but they met because of me and the plane was because of me but that trip was the
[3:23:28]first I think the first trip I took with the ex-president um and I don't believe Epstein and he had met and we're talking in a time
[3:23:38]period when I was trying to >> leave not very successfully obviously but I was branching out on my own and
[3:23:48]being more independent of Mr. Epstein and trying to I had all kinds of businesses that I was
[3:23:59]into. I was trying to start the first teley health medicine with the Cleveland Clinic. I mean, I'm not going to bore you cuz I don't think that's what you guys are interested in, but um those were the sorts of things that I was
[3:24:10]looking for him to finance so that I could stop being, you know, general manager of a hotel. >> Did you So,
[3:24:20]did you take other trips with some or all of those individuals kind of without Mr. Epste in later years? Like you said that was the first time that you you you
[3:24:31]kind of been on something like that and it was an honor and you were spending time with with former President Clinton and and and others. Were there other over the years did you do that more than once? >> Yes.
[3:24:42]>> Um we'll talk about those. >> Um >> like multiple times like too many to count or there three or four times like how many times? >> A lot. A lot. I I went on a lot of
[3:24:54]trips. Now I don't recall all of them. Not because I'm trying to be evasive or anything, but I just don't remember them all. And after a while, you know, in the
[3:25:06]incredible job that you have, all of you, that when you're so highressured and you're spending so much time with extraordinary people like you do with um
[3:25:15]President Trump, it it can blur. It just does. And there's few things that stand out because at the end it's all just
[3:25:24]extraordinary. there's um cars and sirens and president. It's like whoa. Okay. >> So
[3:25:35]I understand but talk so so don't give me spec understanding you can't give specific numbers. >> What describe more about kind of your that part of your life and your relationship.
[3:25:46]>> I'm using relationship. You don't like relationship. And your sorry and and your >> my employer. >> Yes. So just describe your what you were doing
[3:25:56]>> um with those individuals. So when I say those individuals I'm talking about former President Clinton, Doug, um other folks that worked with >> all of them. Yes, there were loads of
[3:26:08]them and basically all of them, you know, the team. I don't need to give you all the names. You you have them at your fingertips and I can confirm if you give me names, I'll say yes cuz they're not all going to pop into my head. So, right.
[3:26:20]>> Okay. So I started um spending a lot of time well I don't want to characterize that but I started to spend time with the former president and with Doug and
[3:26:31]his team and there um I had no purpose really other than I had
[3:26:43]I I obviously offered something I don't know ideas of I don't Anyway, and um he started to
[3:26:55]uh travel uh that I don't remember if the first trip was Africa or how it went, but at some point I think there was actually two trips, but I'm not
[3:27:03]sure. So, there was to Europe and then to af Africa. I think maybe it was all one trip. And at some point, um
[3:27:15]Mr. Epstein said he didn't want to to go on the trip and he was going somewhere else and he just left
[3:27:24]and I was like, "Well, okay." And so I ended up doing the whole trip without Mr. Epstein or his plane. >> And
[3:27:35]when you were traveling with them, what were the purposes of the trips? like is this one? >> I think these were all I think actually
[3:27:44]was the AIDS was one of the primary ones for his AIDS uh foundation when he was working to do that. And um there were
[3:27:54]always a humanitarian side to the trips >> and we went to Egypt and uh there was Oh
[3:28:04]yeah. So there. So it sounds like you're describing one right now. One trip with lots of >> It could be, but I have a feeling that I went on other trips, but I can't
[3:28:15]remember. >> When you when you went on this >> went to London to London. Okay. >> I don't know if that's the same trip. >> When you went on these trips
[3:28:26]that were you always on Mr. Epstein's plane or did you sometimes accompany them on a different plane? >> Correct. Yes. How many were on Mr. Epstein's plane?
[3:28:36]Again, I'm not holding to exact, but >> that was a full that was packed because there was a lot of Secret Service. It took all the Secret Service as well. So, it was whatever the detail is for Secret
[3:28:46]Service, it's a lot. >> Um, and on how many occasions besides the trip you just described, were there other times when they used pres when
[3:28:57]President Clinton and the folks he was with used Mr. Epstein's plane? I I think it was there was twice maybe there was that but it will reflect on the logs. There won't be anything that's not on
[3:29:08]the logs that you have already. So >> were you by the way responsible for the logs in any way? Like you've seen the logs and they're public and you had them in discovery but over the years when you were working with or for Mr. Epstein,
[3:29:20]did you have access to the logs? >> No, never. The pilots that the log book was their p personal log book. I never even saw them have it. I never saw them
[3:29:30]fill it in. And then there was a second uh set of logs, the um the flight for flight manifests, and I never saw those
[3:29:41]either. I was never I was never allowed, I suppose, because want me to see. >> Um do you know
[3:29:51]so do you know whether um Mr. Epstein had a separate relationship with with President Clinton different from the what you just described. So different than than being
[3:30:03]with him with respect to his foundation or something like this. >> I would say no. >> Um when's the last time that you went on a
[3:30:14]trip or saw President Clinton? >> It was in uh was late 200 [Music] Um
[3:30:31]I don't know 16 17 okay something in it was in Los Angeles >> and what was the purpose of that meeting >> I don't uh he was hosting something or
[3:30:41]he was at an event and I was in LA and I had dinner with them. Um, had did you ever meet um, Secretary
[3:30:56]Clinton, Hillary Clinton? >> Yes. >> When did you meet her? Um, I want to say
[3:31:10]again, please don't hold me to it, but I want to say that uh it was on a flight that came from
[3:31:19]the island from not from the island from the Nantucket or or Martha's Vineyard back to New York is what I think. I might be wrong.
[3:31:28]>> Okay. So some an an an east coast island like Nantucket or something like this? >> No, I the Clint um the ex-president never came to the island. >> And did you Is that the only time that
[3:31:40]you met Hillary Clinton? >> No. Um I went to the house in Chapuran a few times. >> And why did you go to the house? >> I was invited.
[3:31:49]>> Um just to see President Clinton or Hillary Clinton or both or >> Yeah. I mean as a as a friend not for I
[3:32:00]don't there was no I don't remember any reason either was somehow I communicated that was in coming driving back past Chaffar if they were home I'd stop in
[3:32:09]it's I know it sounds a little flippant but it could it could have been even something as >> and do you know whether Mr. Epstein had knew or had a any sort of business
[3:32:20]dealings or or associated with Hillary Clinton? >> I would say no. Did did you ever see them together? >> No. >> Um, did do you know whether Mr. Epstein
[3:32:32]ever did any business transactions with the Clintons? I would well I'm not sure I can I'm not sure how to quite uh I don't know the answer to that
[3:32:44]strictly um because uh I was uh I was part of the beginning process of the Clinton Global Initiative
[3:32:54]and uh that was something that I helped with and that was me and Epstein may have helped me help them and in that
[3:33:05]context He may well have involved himself, but only in the context of something that I was trying to do.
[3:33:15]>> So when you say involved himself, meaning like give money to the Clinton Global Initiative or something like this. >> Well, so there's that. I think he did do
[3:33:26]that and that I believe the money that he may have given could have been independent of me but um I think it's just easier if I just tell you how it happened rather than otherwise sounds
[3:33:37]sounds all odd and funky. Um I went to um Davos with the former president and
[3:33:45]um I uh have you been to Davos >> in what >> have you been to Davos? >> I have not. >> Okay. Well, you know, it's a you know
[3:33:56]what it is, right? Okay. So, and I was I thought that the former president should have his own doubles
[3:34:06]because it would be and they had it turned out that they had been thinking about it anyway. And so we were talking about it and you know it's a very heavy
[3:34:18]lift to get something like that to go. And I was friendly with um one of the people who had um I don't know if he was
[3:34:27]at the beginning of Davos or but he was running Davos. I was just I don't know how to describe his actual role at Davos and I had conversations with him about
[3:34:36]what did he think you know what just because I was having dinner with him about if Clinton could get something like that to go what was his thoughts and he was very very enthusiastic. I
[3:34:47]mean he was like that's just an incredible idea. So, I put them together. >> Who's What's that person's name? Do you remember? >> I knew you were going to ask me. >> Okay. >> Um I can I can >> um
[3:34:58]>> I just You said I didn't know if you knew his if you remember his name. >> I do, but I just >> can't remember his name. >> I It will come to me. It It may come to me tomorrow, but eventually these things like surface from like in the middle of
[3:35:09]the night. I was scribbling names that I couldn't remember from yesterday. >> Okay. >> But his name will come to me and if not, we can find it. So, so you when the just
[3:35:20]still stay staying on your relationship with sorry the your association with the the Clintons um you were part of the ramp up or the startup of the Clinton
[3:35:32]Global Initiative and helping them and supporting that effort. >> I would I I would say very very central to that. Yes.
[3:35:41]>> And Mr. Epstein. Was he part of the work around that or
[3:35:49]just in support of you? >> He supported me to help them, but then I think he may have tried to use that to insert himself in some way. That would
[3:36:01]not have surprised me at all. And I know that he was annoying in terms I could catch him on the phone and he wouldn't always agree with what I wanted to do. you know, it's like it was not your idea. I
[3:36:13]don't really care what you think, >> but that didn't go over so well. >> Um, and >> I just want to say it wasn't my idea for his CGI. I didn't say it again.
[3:36:24]>> It was not my idea. They had had that idea before. I just helped bring key personnel to >> You're saying the idea of President Clinton kind of having his own data. >> No, I understand. Okay.
[3:36:40]>> Um, did you go to Davos with President Clinton more than once or just once? >> I can't remember. Once for sure and I
[3:36:50]think maybe twice, but I don't remember. >> Um, did and you're not I think you said you don't you you're not aware of President
[3:37:01]Clinton ever going to the island? He never absolutely never went and I can be sure of that because there's no way he would have gone I don't believe there's any way that he would have gone to the island had I not been there because I
[3:37:13]don't believe he had an independent friendship if you will with Epstein. Did he speak? Did he go on? Yes. But that's very different from going to spend time
[3:37:22]on night and plus the story as told is so patently absurd that I flew him in the helicopter. I am a helicopter pilot. That is true. But The notion of me
[3:37:34]flying an ex-president on a machine would terrify me. I would never even take that responsibility. Can you imagine? Yeah. No, I'm not I'm No.
[3:37:44]>> Did Did you ever go with President Clinton to any of Epstein, Mr. Epstein's um properties? >> So like New Mexico, Palm Beach, or in New York.
[3:37:56]>> I I have no memory of him in any of those places. When you were in London with President Clinton, did you did you ever
[3:38:06]go to your to your flat with him? >> I don't think he did. I don't I don't think so because this is like you wouldn't even he wouldn't even be able
[3:38:17]to carry all his secret service with him. >> I don't think so. No. >> Okay. Um, do you know um we talked a little about
[3:38:28]the Duchess of York about Sarah Ferguson yesterday. Did um when's the when's the last time you like when's the
[3:38:39]last time you you saw her? Like were you were you do you have a Were you with her, hang out with her, socializing with her in the 90s, 2000s,
[3:38:49]both? She's well um I had a I don't know if she liked me very much.
[3:39:06]I think my friendship with her ex-husband um well sometimes she really did like me
[3:39:17]and sometimes she didn't. So maybe a friend of me, I don't know. >> I It was always friendly when we were together, but I think that there was some latent hostility. >> And
[3:39:28]>> is that something you've heard since everything came out or along the way you felt that way? >> No, that's how I felt. That's that is a characterization of myself. That's how I felt about her. Um I would never I I was
[3:39:39]always friendly with her. I mean, she's I mean, I I've seen her many many times and she's also super super close with other people very good friends with in
[3:39:51]England. I think that um I think that she liked Mr. Epstein. >> Why do you think that?
[3:40:02]>> My female intuition. >> Okay. >> What discovery? >> Oh, a letter. No, I don't remember it. Well, >> it's okay.
[3:40:13]>> Okay. I don't It's possible that there's things Well, I It's not possible. I know that there is Discovery, but I don't recall. But I think she had a thing.
[3:40:24]>> Did um there's some actors or some folks from Hollywood that I want to ask you about just to understand whether you
[3:40:35]knew them or Mr. Epste knew them. Chris Tucker. >> Yes. >> How did you know Mr. Tucker, >> I think only from that flight uh to Africa, but I do think that they >> You say that flight to Africa, the one
[3:40:46]we were just talking about with President Clinton. So, >> okay. >> Sorry. >> Sorry. Go ahead. Yep. >> But I also think that they kept a little
[3:40:53]bit in touch and I think they met or I have a memory of him maybe in LA. I don't know. I think they sort of loosely stayed in touch. I wouldn't I don't
[3:41:04]think it I don't know. I don't know how to say that. >> Do you know Mr. Tucker besides that flight. >> No. >> And do you know whether
[3:41:13]um when you say you think that they kept in touch, you mean you think that Mr. Epstein and Mr. Tucker? >> They may have. I didn't, but he might have. I I'm sure.
[3:41:25]>> Um Kevin Spacy. >> I I know him also from that same flight. >> Aside from that flight, do you know him from any other thing? >> No.
[3:41:35]>> Naomi Campbell? Yes, I do know Naomi and I knew her before I met uh Mr. Epstein
[3:41:42]and uh Mr. the former President Clinton. >> Do you know whether Mr. Epstein separately knew Miss Campbell?
[3:41:53]>> I think he probably met her through me. That I I imagine. >> And so um for those three, Mr. Tucker,
[3:42:02]Mr. Spacy and Miss Campbell, did they ever travel to um any of Mr. Epstein's properties, the island or or New Mexico?
[3:42:12]>> Not Mr. Tucker. Well, not to my knowledge, Mr. Tucker or Mr. uh Spacy. Naomi Campbell may have >> to where? She may have gone well she
[3:42:24]certainly well I believe she visited him in Palm Beach and I believe she may have gone to the island and she may have gone to see his house in New York whether she went to
[3:42:36]New Mexico or Paris as well maybe they they were friends or friendly. >> Were you the what you just said she may have were you on those trips?
[3:42:47]>> Um I don't have any independent memory of that so I'm not sure. I don't think so. >> Um, do you know >> her relationship, her friendship, her
[3:42:58]making me use your word, >> her >> her um friendship or whatever with Mr. Epste is independent of me. >> Okay. But you also had a separate
[3:43:10]friendship with her even before you met Mr. Epste. >> I did. >> Okay. Um, Larry Summers, the former secretary of the Treasury. Did you know that person? >> I did. Yes. How
[3:43:21]>> uh I met Mr. Summers through Mr. Epstein. >> Um and the same question just generally time period. Are you talking about early 2000s 90s after that?
[3:43:32]>> I honestly really don't know. Okay. >> I want to say something I forgot that there was yesterday um you asked me about Mr. Epstein's properties. He had a
[3:43:43]rental in Boston as well, but not for very long, but it was another place that I had to put together. And um I only went with him once and he would go there independently of me. I would not go with
[3:43:54]him. >> Was that in the '9s? >> I think it was. Yes. >> Mr. Summers, do you know why? Do you know what his relationship
[3:44:06]was with Mr. Epstein? Business, personal, both or don't you know? >> I I think he spoke to Mr. Epstein about business or not, but I think they were
[3:44:15]friends and friendly. Um, did do you know whether Mr. Summers ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes to any of the properties that Mr. Epste owned? >> He may have, but I don't think if he
[3:44:26]did, I was on any of the flights. I mean, there's another issue. I mean, I went I traveled so so much that I really the flights just blur.
[3:44:35]>> Understand? Um, George Soros, >> I don't think he knew him. I did, but I don't think he did. I don't think >> How did you know Mr. Soros? >> I was friends with his kids.
[3:44:47]What? Which kids? >> John and um I >> can't think of I can't think of his
[3:44:57]other child. I can't think. I've lost his name. >> Who? >> Howard. >> I don't know. Um I met him but just
[3:45:09]socially and he may not remember even having met me. I was excited to meet him. When are you thinking when would you have met him? >> If I met him I think it was either at an event or at his kids. It wouldn't have
[3:45:20]been at his house at an event I think or I think actually no in the Hamptons I met him. He was staying at somebody's house if if my memory serves. >> And what was your relationship?
[3:45:32]How did you know his kids? >> I was out and about in New York a lot. >> So just socially?
[3:45:41]>> Just socially. Yes. And um yeah, just socially I think. >> Do you know do you know whether Mr. Soros or his kids ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes? >> I don't think so.
[3:45:52]>> And ever visit either the island or to Mexico or >> No, I don't think so. >> Paris? No. Um,
[3:46:01]so I we we tried to to identify names that have come up either in publicly or in in in in other lawsuits. Are there
[3:46:13]any names that you that come to mind that we haven't we've talked about a lot of names, a lot of there's some folks that that you think we've forgotten to ask you about? Well, you asked me about
[3:46:25]names and I have some names and I just want to give you some context for the names as well. >> So, we talked about Elizabeth Johnson yesterday. >> Um, she had a boyfriend and he was
[3:46:36]Frederick Fakai, the hairdresser, and he and Nepine were friendly, very friendly. >> Um, and then what time period are you
[3:46:45]talking about? Um, well, >> like 90s or 2000s or both?
[3:46:56]>> I think the 2000s actually for that. >> Um, >> you can date that because from when he I I think he probably knew Frederick
[3:47:03]before he dated Elizabeth. But um, >> and when you say they were very friendly, did they go do they travel together? I don't know if they traveled
[3:47:14]together, but I mean Epstein didn't go out very much. Oh, I mean he did go out, but not and sometimes if he did, he I think he would go out and maybe see Fred
[3:47:23]Frederick. And then there was um I mean he had a bunch of guys that he would I would know that he would see or meet,
[3:47:34]but he really I guess not. So he had friends. I don't know. But >> Okay. What other names? Okay. So, um
[3:47:44]Henry Cherki who had an island near his Henry was a financier who's the guy who cornered the silver market back in the day. >> He had an island in the Caribbean in the
[3:47:56]Caribbean near >> in the British Virgin Islands. Okay. And there was Branson's Island there. Now, I know that there's an allegation that they met. I I think I I think I remember
[3:48:07]that I went to Richard Branson's Island with Mr. Epstein and maybe he went another time, but I don't I wouldn't characterize Richard Branson and him as friends, but he did
[3:48:18]go and I think I went with him. >> Do you know whether Mr. Branson ever came to Mr. Epstein's island? >> If he did, I was not there. >> Okay. >> Okay.
[3:48:28]>> So, but it's possible. So, I wanted to >> Who else? >> Um Marvin Minsky. He had a group of scientists that he was very very
[3:48:40]friendly with all centered around Harvard. So I remember him Martin Novak who's a mathematician. Um Steven J. Gould I don't know if Steven
[3:48:53]J. rule was came through that Harvard angle, but I know that there was a he would excuse me, Epstein would have dinners at
[3:49:03]the house that I was tasked to organize and the scientists were a very major component of that. They weren't social
[3:49:13]dinners as much as they were scientific. He would discuss whatever he would discuss. But if you were in the area of
[3:49:22]brain uh cognition or um he would invite them to the house and they would come all of them all any name you can name me they would be there.
[3:49:34]>> So let's talk about that top that relation those those associations or relationships yeah with the mathematicians and with Harvard and
[3:49:44]I think with MIT to some extent >> official MIT too. what >> what from what you observed
[3:49:51]what's the reason behind him having um developing those ties with with Harvard with MIT and with certain professors and
[3:50:02]and others associated with those institutions. he really was uh profoundly interested in that area of science and in the brain and in I mean
[3:50:14]if you were in Steven Jay Gould or um the major scientist on happiness I mean it it came I believe from a genuine area
[3:50:24]of interest not from anything um >> and how did he um how did he become friends with them how was was he able to
[3:50:35]spend time with them? Meaning um did he donate to the university and then they were kind of it was mandatory fund for them or did he have relations with them where he would you know
[3:50:46]>> I don't know >> host them or >> I don't know if the chicken or the egg came first. >> Okay. >> But but um when I met him first I mean he was already doing a lot of this
[3:50:56]stuff. This is not I I've I've read so this is why I'm saying this. I was not responsible for these for this area of I mean I certainly sorry just to bounce a
[3:51:07]second before it slips my mind and I leave something out. Um there was an institute in New Mexico called um anyone
[3:51:20]uh the institute of it's very famous. We're not talking to Alamos anyway. All right. There's a very famous institute in New Mexico. You can look it up. you'll it'll come to you the minute you
[3:51:30]put it in your computer. And there had some of the biggest brains ever. Those that relationship came through me. So I
[3:51:39]that's me and that is because my father was um one of the major scientific my family
[3:51:49]fortune when I had one came from scientific publishing and when uh started from the thing that you were asking me
[3:51:59]yesterday my father was in uh the second world war I told you and he won the military cross and then he actually did become was part of intelligence back in
[3:52:08]the war and his job was to um interrogate German scientists and prisoners of war and then that parlayed into a business
[3:52:19]with Springer Verlag and then into Pergman Press which was the scientific journals business and he had an interest he he believed
[3:52:29]that um it's knowledge is what would prevent war and the biggest scientific discoveries well not all of them but many of them coming from the eastern
[3:52:39]block and that's how we have the relationship with Santa Fe Institute and Marie Galman specifically and I introduced Epstein to Marie Galman.
[3:52:49]Sorry. >> Yes, thank you. and um Murray Galman was there and Murray Galman and Epstein got along very very well and he was the man of the book.
[3:53:01]>> So So do you know whether um so while you when you meet Mr. I've seen in the early '90s continuing on so not what he had
[3:53:12]done before. Um did he why do you think from what you saw or what you heard he had the relationship or wanted to have the relationships that
[3:53:24]he had with Harvard and with and with MIT? >> So I think that that may have come with Wexner. I'm not sure, but that's something that I think that Wexner maybe
[3:53:34]had a relationship with Harvard and that he used that relationship to uh I believe he funded a lot and if he didn't that his clients of which Wexner
[3:53:45]obviously was one would fund and he would he would then make he would arrange the fund or >> did organize the fund or
[3:53:56]>> I'm going to take we'll take a break in a in a in a minute but just to to kind of set us up where we're going to talk about next. Um, Mr. EP, we talked the
[3:54:06]yesterday morning about Mr. Epstein's kind of business and how he had money. Um, did he seem to live beyond his means as
[3:54:17]far as what he was making? So, did you ever get the sense while you were with him that it was um suspicious or curious
[3:54:28]how he was able to have the funds to, you know, buy, you know, two planes, you know, an island, New Mexico, you know, the ranch, um almost almost unlimited funds.
[3:54:39]>> Uh you said it perfectly. I thought it was astonishing, but I didn't have any reason to believe that it came from
[3:54:48]anything nefarious. I saw him work I I never saw him really do anything other than be on the phone. There's that. And he had a lot of meetings, but he had a
[3:54:59]lot of accounts and he dealt with pretty much every financeier that you could care to mention. And if I could have access to the names, I'd be able to tell
[3:55:10]you which ones you I just don't remember them all. But in every bank, Goldman, Lehman, um all of them
[3:55:22]to my mind anyway and most of the major businessmen at that time. He was in the Council of Foreign Relations. So you had access that's an extraordinary list of
[3:55:33]people. It just is. And then he you asked me about his so I thought about it last night how to try and explain what it was and I think the best thing is to
[3:55:42]focus only on Wexner's business. So I was present for some of their meetings in some of their business.
[3:55:50]Um and I listened and um so things that I personally recollect and I know I heard was that he would when I I told
[3:56:01]you yesterday I think that he would no detail was too small. So he would do the contracts with the staff. I think and I saw that myself. Um and he also
[3:56:12]organized all the trusts for all the children. So if Wexner had kids in if he did he did have children. So every time there was a child he would create a trust for that child. And I don't these
[3:56:24]were complex uh financial structures um that would contain stocks of the various businesses. He restructured when I was
[3:56:33]there Wexner's business in its entirety if as I recollect. And then not only that, but there were business interests. So Wexner owned or built or designed or
[3:56:44]I don't quite know how to characterize it, but New Albany, which is a center outside of uh Ohio, Columbus, Ohio specifically. And he built I remember
[3:56:56]this conversation. He he built himself a very large house, like truly enormous. It's one of the biggest private homes I've ever been to. And he built all the houses around him. And I'm like, "This
[3:57:07]is so random. Why would you do that?" And he said to me, "Well, because I want to make sure that the people around me, my friends I want my friends around me and my neighbors." And I was like, "Well, whatever. Okay." You know, I I
[3:57:19]I've been around enormous wealth my whole life and I've like at some point I'm just like, "Okay, whatever. I get it." And I don't And so that's what he did. But Epstein ran New Albany, which
[3:57:31]included a country club and a golf club and a I mean, gosh, your boss is one of the all-time great, you know, businessmen in this area. You know what that is, and he certainly does. So,
[3:57:43]there'd be that. And there was a business business that Epstein, well, he told me he owned it. Of course, I can't say that for sure because I don't know, but it's a sports thing. Redell. Is that
[3:57:53]a business? Redell's. I thought about it last night. It's red >> and hats, helmets. >> Riddell's >> Ryel.
[3:58:04]>> Ryel. Yeah, Ryell's >> Okay. >> Now, how he owned that, well, he told me he owned it, but how he owned that, I But that was before I I think I came in
[3:58:13]and he had it or he said he did. >> Got it. >> And he had other businesses. He had I know this notion that he did nothing and he just was a grifter and whatnot. Okay,
[3:58:24]I'm not going to say that's not true, but it's not what I saw and it's not what I believe is true. Not because it couldn't have been that he didn't grift or whatever the word is of of people,
[3:58:36]but I saw what I thought looked like real work. >> Well, why don't we take a take a break? Okay. Yeah. Thank you. All right. The
[3:58:46]time is now 10:35 and we'll take a break. [Applause] We are resuming from break. The time is
[3:58:55]10:49 on Friday, July 25th. All right. Um, [Applause] so
[3:59:11]we've talked around this issue, but but talked about it a little bit. I want to spend the next hour or so or however long it takes. Um
[3:59:22]when when you when we I want to talk focus kind of exclusively on Epstein and like his criminal conduct with respect to to
[3:59:32]women. Um, do you you said yesterday a couple times that
[3:59:43]like you now kind of recognize or or or think that there was things that he did that you didn't know about and that that he um kept from you or or that you
[3:59:53]didn't see. What did you see? So, you said yesterday, and I I'm not I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but at some point he was getting massages seven days
[4:00:04]a week, sometimes multiple massages a day. Women have said that that that were there that that say they were there giving him massages. said that that
[4:00:16]those included some sort of sexual conduct, however you define that in the broadest sense, not just a traditional massage regularly.
[4:00:26]So, what do you what did you see and hear at the time? And then I think
[4:00:38]aside from what you saw and heard at the time, now that you've been through what you've been through and and heard people say what they've said and read what they read, what do you where does that leave
[4:00:47]you in your mind with what happened? >> Okay. So I saw Epstein with
[4:00:58]women. And what I mean by that is he would have women around him or women on the plane or women in his house or
[4:01:09]that's how I'm explaining that those women were very interested what my my
[4:01:22]characterization of the inter the relationships between all women that I saw with him and him was characterized
[4:01:32]by excuse me their interest in him as I as I would see it and by that I mean
[4:01:41]I never saw anybody who didn't want to be with him and be with him maybe socially or whatever. I
[4:01:50]never saw anybody not under any form of duress in any type of situation where they were as as as I would characterize
[4:02:00]it looking uncomfortable or in any way distressed in the entire time I was with him or traveled with him. I never saw that. So
[4:02:12]anytime I saw anybody with him, they were happy to be with him. He would ask people all the time, whoever you were,
[4:02:21]to massage his feet. It just was he'd be sitting there and he'd have somebody massage his feet or squeeze his
[4:02:28]shoulders or I saw that a lot. It It was an ubiquitous interaction, if you will.
[4:02:36]So, I did see that. Um, I saw physicality, but not anything that was uh I don't how to characterize anything
[4:02:52]that looked aggressive, I suppose, to define that. So, I never saw an aggressive move. I never saw anything that was >> non-consensual. Well, thank you. Okay. I
[4:03:03]never saw anything that was non-consensual. So, if he Well, maybe they didn't. I never saw anything that looked like they didn't
[4:03:12]like the hug or uh I never saw what I would characterize as anything that was unconsensual. >> Did you see um
[4:03:23]did you see him either get receiving or participating in sexual conduct during massages? Understanding you never saw
[4:03:33]something non-consensual. Did you see him engaged in sexual conduct during massages? >> Well, you could define sexual conduct as in I did see women who could have been
[4:03:44]uh you know less than normally clad for massage, but especially on the island where they would be in a bikini or possibly even topless. Yeah, I did see that. So, you would
[4:03:55]>> But what about in so Yes, I agree. That's one area like so women who were either not clothed or um
[4:04:05]topless with just a bottom on. Um but beyond that, did you see as part of that him touching them? And again, I'm not talking about consent or not consent or
[4:04:16]age or, you know, I'm saying like there's multiple multiple, you know, dozens and dozens of of women who have said that they were that they engaged in
[4:04:28]um sexual contact and I agree there's a broad range of what that can how that can be defined, but defining it in the broadest of of terms. >> I saw him being physical with women. I
[4:04:39]did see that, but nothing that was not consensual. and and to address the issue of the large number of women who today say that he was non-conceptual or
[4:04:50]coercive with them. I'm not sure
[4:05:01]I in my mind I sort of have to characterize the two distinct areas. There's one where is the women who are not of age. Therefore, anything with them is immediately unconsensual. >> Correct.
[4:05:12]>> So, let's start. And I want to define >> anyone who's underage versus anybody who's overage because I do think that there's a very significant differential between the two. >> Well, so does the law. >> Yeah.
[4:05:24]>> Okay. I don't mean that. >> No, I agree with you. Yes. I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. So, I want to deal with the thing which is really why we're here. I mean, not that I'm not going to deal with
[4:05:34]other, but I just want to make a distinction with underage situation because there's nothing about that. That's right. I never saw anything with anybody who
[4:05:46]was certainly to be categorical in my from my trial. Let's deal with that cuz that's something that I can say in I never saw
[4:05:57]that with them at all. And I would say that as as described anyway in my trial did not happen as described.
[4:06:08]I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do those things. I'm not casting those. I'm not going to say I don't feel comfortable saying that today given what I now know to be true. So I'm not here
[4:06:19]to defend him. But what I can say is that I did not participate in the that activity. And >> so let's divide this into two areas. Maybe there's more, but we'll start with two
[4:06:31]areas. One is there was testimony and there's certainly been depositions and public statements that some of these young women had
[4:06:42]conversations with you about their age. So, for example, conversations about the fact that they were in high school or conversations about the fact that they wanted to go to college one day, which
[4:06:53]would necessarily mean, well, not necessarily, but would would be more likely to mean that they were in high school when they talked to you about that. And so,
[4:07:03]were there time were there women that you knew were underage? And I say that because that's different than whether
[4:07:12]um they were sexually abused in any way by Mr. Epstein, just merely their age and going to give him a massage.
[4:07:22]>> No, I never knew that. And I can categorically state that had any child said to me that they were 14, 15,
[4:07:33]16. Maybe not 17 cuz 17 in England I mean if someone had said they were 17 I don't I've read so much that that did happen. I mean I just but I had no I would never have permitted such a thing.
[4:07:44]I would I don't even know what I would have done. What? So, some of the I think even someone who testified at trial, but certainly publicly talked about was as
[4:07:55]young as 14 when when she was introduced to Mr. Epstein. Um, in in your mind today,
[4:08:08]you you don't you you you kind of reject that that happened, that you saw that, meaning you don't recall any obviously under 18 woman coming to give him a massage.
[4:08:19]>> Well, I believe you're talking about Jane, and I'm very happy to address that. I actually don't think that the testimony is correct. >> I don't believe No, no, I'm not. I I just want to tell you how.
[4:08:31]>> Yeah. I don't want to get into it. >> No. I'm not I'm not No, no. Absolutely not. I don't want to go there either. I'm not I'm not going to do that. >> But I believe that what took place with a lot of these people is that there was
[4:08:41]a slide, right? So there was a a zone and I I he did meet her and I did meet her and I knew that she was a young
[4:08:50]child and I knew that she was not an adult because but I don't believe he met her till she was 16. So, I'm not I'm not doing a he said, she said. I'm not doing
[4:09:02]that cuz nobody that's not what we're here for. >> But he didn't meet her till she was 16. And the entire testimony of the 14, 15,
[4:09:12]and 16 year old is therefore not accurate. Did I meet her when she was 16 with her mother? I absolutely did. And did I know that she was young? I
[4:09:22]absolutely did. But everything that took place that was alleged at trial at the 14 and 15 and 16 is is not accurate. And
[4:09:34]uh >> there's there's testimony or there's and again I'm I'm using testimony in the broadest sense. Some of this is just public statements or something that's
[4:09:44]come out in civil lawsuits um about you and Mr. Epstein giving um like an 18 you're turning 18 birthday card to
[4:09:54]somebody which again if true would by definition mean you knew that she was under 18. Um do you recall doing that? >> I do not. I mean no memory of that at
[4:10:06]all. >> Um and I believe that would be uh the person that called herself Kate has now announced herself in her own podcast for
[4:10:17]who she really is. that name is. So I did not meet until actually she was either 20 or 21. So uh it would be very hard for me to have given her an 18 birthday card. And
[4:10:29]the testimony there that slid >> back. >> Do you accept that at some point and we talked about this yesterday about how
[4:10:39]Mr. Epste changed but at some point Mr. Epstein definitely um preferred younger women. I accept. >> And I think you said yesterday, but say it again since we're talking about it.
[4:10:51]Is that something that you in your mind one of the areas where he changed from when you first met him until later? >> So I I when I just also want to be
[4:11:00]clear, I never understood that change to encompass children. I did see from when I met him, he was uh involved or
[4:11:11]involved or friends with or what, however you want to characterize it, with women who are in their 20s and then the slide
[4:11:21]to, you know, 18 or youngerlooking women, but I never considered that this would encompass criminal
[4:11:31]behavior. it. >> And so when you read I guess two different times, right? One
[4:11:42]was during the Florida investigation when there were eventually public statements from some of these um these now women who who
[4:11:52]testified about what they did with Mr. Epstein when they were under 18. Um, at that point, did you realize or did you think to yourself,
[4:12:03]"This happened or this could have happened, I missed it." Or um or were you at that point still in the mindset that they were either not telling the truth or or were not remembering what
[4:12:15]happened um the way that accurately? >> That's a very fair question. So I think that um
[4:12:23]my view of this at that time can call it as contemporaneously as it did because I don't think that stuff came out in
[4:12:33]public. I I mean I may have read things but I don't my first real memory of that is at the trial but
[4:12:40]>> um my viewpoint if you will was set from the minute that lied in her
[4:12:50]civil deposition and I could never recover from that because >> what are you what are you which liar what are you referring to >> her entire character characterization
[4:13:03]Okay. >> Of now I I I don't remember how she came and whether I did, but I'm talking about the first time she came to Epstein's house, which I knew to be false. So,
[4:13:13]from that first lie of that description, I could never recover from that. >> I understand. Okay. So, >> and that tainted, sorry, just so that
[4:13:25]we're clear, it tainted then the the testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post that because I had my own personal experience which I knew to be false.
[4:13:35]>> Yeah. And the reason why I think and I I I said to Mr. Marcus that this morning that we were going to talk
[4:13:45]about this because when I think about you and the public's perception of Mr. Epstein,
[4:13:53]um the public is left with the view that nobody in the world knows what really happened except for you. Okay. Now, you've explained the last day and a half how some of that's just a misperception
[4:14:05]because you weren't you didn't have a key to his house. you weren't around as much as as maybe everybody claims you were. Okay. But there still is this perception out there that oh my gosh, if
[4:14:17]if if we could talk to Miss Maxwell, we would know um how horrible Mr. Epstein was or how misperceived he was, what whatever the truth is about
[4:14:28]Mr. Epstein. And the challenge in my mind just to be I told you I would tell you when I had con issues. And the challenge in my mind is that so many
[4:14:38]women have have said that Mr. Epstein um sexually assaulted them whether
[4:14:47]juveniles or or adults that um I don't find it you know at some that's persuasive right that that happened. >> Okay.
[4:14:58]And so if if that's persuasive then and I think it's without beyond contestation that he preferred younger women and and
[4:15:08]and it's also beyond I think at this point there were certainly circumstances that underage women um >> well I don't want to say that that you agree with me on that. I certainly
[4:15:20]believe that there were younger age women that were abused by him. Okay. Um and so and then so the layer that I want you to that I really want to have a
[4:15:31]frank discussion about is some of these women have said oh yes you know Miss Maxwell was there you know to varying degrees. She saw me there. She the door
[4:15:42]was open when I was there and then and then much more egregious right that you participated and that you were part of it. And so what I what I really want you to have an opportunity to to to say to
[4:15:53]us is where on the spectrum the truth is whether it's somewhere in the middle whether it's one extreme or another extreme understanding in my mind I'm
[4:16:04]talking about 1994 5 to whenever late 90s early 2000s >> and and let me just interrupt and all I would say is
[4:16:15]we're not here to say anything one way or the other about Epstein. I agree with you that that the evidence is overwhelming against him and and he he's his own person and has to deal with
[4:16:27]that. But Glenn can speak about what she knows and from her point of view and what she did >> and and that's what you can talk about Golen.
[4:16:35]>> Okay. So I think it it's helpful to put this on the the time on the calendar because I think without that we we're lost.
[4:16:46]So I would say we'll go from the beginning 91 no 2 no 3 no four no five no six Now in that time frame you have
[4:16:57]the allegations of Jane who I dispute I don't think he met her until she was >> let's not talk about individual >> no I'm just saying but there's only but there's only so in that time period I
[4:17:08]only aware of her I'm aware of uh a girl who said but
[4:17:15]and and those I I don't know of any others and if there are other people who are making allegations about I don't I'm not even I'm not actually aware of them. I may have read them in the but I don't
[4:17:27]I don't know. So I think in the early '90s period I think I'm fairly confident and I can say that at least as characterized it's just it's just false.
[4:17:38]It's just it didn't happen as said now. Didn't did it happen did he did he involve himself? I I knew about Jane because I saw her come to the house but
[4:17:48]I saw her with her mother. I know that her allegations are that there were orgies for instance but the people that she suggests were in her
[4:18:01]orgies didn't even work for Epstein until 98 or 99. Did he do orgies with those people? And I don't know anybody who was there who
[4:18:12]said that they did. I certainly didn't see it. I can't say that that happened. Um, did she do it with someone else? I don't know. The stories really start the
[4:18:21]the the allegations really begin with and I think that you have to shift his behavior such as it was bar there was one in California who made an
[4:18:32]allegation. There was a woman who said that she and she's I didn't know about. So, I think I would call her the first person. I'd be aware of him using his position to
[4:18:42]>> But sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to I don't want I don't want to have you I don't think it's helpful for for us to have you kind
[4:18:54]of address each allegation. I want you to clear your mind and just tell the truth about it. So, I'm not saying you're not telling the truth. saying just putting aside what other people have said or what their lawyers have
[4:19:04]said or what they testified to or you know the rumors in the press push those aside. You you were there and um and so when when you go back to that
[4:19:16]time period 92 93 99 2000 2001 during that time period >> um what did you see when it comes to young women and massages? >> All right. So I saw him receive
[4:19:28]massages. He had regular massuses in the 90s, people who were standard and who who traveled with him. And I saw that he was living in that Iranian house. And
[4:19:38]now that I look back, he had I didn't stay there, but I would go to manage the house. I would see women uh models or people that he would have come
[4:19:50]to the house. Um I I know that I thought that he was with Eva still at that time. That's what I believed. And then subsequently believed
[4:20:02]that even though she married him, I actually >> subsequently believed that the baby that she had was his. >> Can can I interrupt for one second? Can I just ask some some basic topline questions? >> Yes.
[4:20:13]>> Were you ever in a massage room with him and a masseuse? >> Yes. >> Okay. Who when was that? Well, he would come in sometimes and he
[4:20:23]would like say, "Oh, like put give her a massage here." Or he would grab my, you know, but not often. I mean, he did come in from time to time. >> Were you ever in a massage room with him
[4:20:33]with a a masseuse that was naked or giving him any sexual favors? >> I never saw that. >> Okay. >> That I remember. >> Okay. Um, did you did you ever did did
[4:20:43]any of the massuses ever discuss with you giving that that they gave sexual favors to Epstein? >> No. Um, did you ever see an underage girl go
[4:20:53]into a massage room with Mr. Epstein? >> No. >> Um, if if you had seen that, what would you have done? >> Would you have left?
[4:21:04]>> I can't even conceive. I I can't even conceive of I can't imagine what I would have done. >> All right. I'm sorry. >> No, that's okay. Okay. Did you ever
[4:21:15]observe um Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage. >> Yes. >> Um >> I mean when I'd seen him on a massage
[4:21:26]table, I had seen him masturbate. I don't know if there was a masseuse present, but I've seen him on a massage. Okay. Sorry. I just >> Did you ever see him masturbate with a masseuse, you know, with was with a
[4:21:36]naked woman um either giving a massage, reporting to give him a massage? >> I I don't remember seeing that. Um, did you give him massages, by the
[4:21:47]way? I mean, there's a photo of you rubbing his feet and I think >> I I never I I certainly have been in the massage room with him and I have certainly rubbed his feet and when he
[4:21:58]would would talk and but I I was not a masseuse and I didn't perform massage
[4:22:05]on him. Did you um along during the over the years did you pay the massuses?
[4:22:14]>> I I it was typically not my job but if there was nobody else normally. So in Palm Beach the housemen would give the money and in New York he would do that
[4:22:26]because I wouldn't be in New York when he I mean I don't remember ever paying him a suit in New York. So it wasn't your it wasn't your job on a regular ma basis to pay the massus. So if there was
[4:22:37]a masseuse seven days a week um it wasn't expected that seven days a week you would be the one handing them money. I >> mostly I would not I'm not saying I never did it because that wouldn't be
[4:22:48]true but it was not my job to pay him. I mostly recall he would either pay them himself, he would have money or the housemen and I think some of them would have
[4:22:59]probably received checks. Um, and so just picking up on what Mr.
[4:23:06]Marcus was just asking you, um, did you participate in sexual activity with him with a masseuse like at the same time?
[4:23:17]>> No. And so this the test I don't know if there was testimony but the women who have said that that happened um categorically that's not true.
[4:23:27]>> That is categorically not true. >> Um did you moving past the
[4:23:38]moving into the 2000s? >> I I just want to say that I have been I mean I remember there'd be times when he'd be getting a massage and I would be in the room. I could be on his feet and somebody else could be on his feet and
[4:23:48]we could be talking. So there is that. >> But that's not You're not talking about something that's sexual. You're talking about literally just rubbing his feet. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> But I mean
[4:23:59]>> that's not what I'm talking about. I'm sorry. >> Well, he there could be sometimes the women might be topless who were giving that. So you could say that was sexual in that context. No, I'm I'm talking
[4:24:10]about the repeated reports of of certain sex acts happening with you present and even participating. >> No.
[4:24:20]>> Um, did you did in the 2000s time period, so moving a little more recently when you talked
[4:24:30]about it yesterday about how your relationship with with Mr. changed and was changing and and and you ultimately
[4:24:39]met somebody else. Um did you observe
[4:24:48]um any you know massages or young women giving him massages later on? So after 20201 time period
[4:24:58]>> I'm sure I did. And was there anything different about what you observed during that period and the '9s as far as frequency, his conduct towards them? Um,
[4:25:09]>> I think the frequency increased. I think he went from one to two in that time period. And
[4:25:17]but I did not see I have no recollection of ever seeing a child
[4:25:27]entering the house and giving him a massage. I at that time he had moved me out of the main house. I had moved into an
[4:25:38]office where John Allesie the former butler under the stairs. So I had an office where I would be that was not part of that part of the house. If I saw
[4:25:49]people and I'm not saying I didn't see people come to give a massage that that wouldn't be true either. But if I saw someone let's say
[4:26:00]I wouldn't I don't remember ever seeing anybody that I would characterize as a child. Now, specifically someone who accused me of
[4:26:12]seeing her at the time when she came, if I did see her, and I don't believe I did see her or meet her at all, but if she did, she was as she's described herself
[4:26:23]now, was very mature and looked in her 20s. So, could somebody have come that was more mature-looking than the
[4:26:34]allegation of what she did look like with a photograph that was produced as evidence? Yes. I never recall at any time seeing what I
[4:26:45]would characterize as a child coming to give him a massage and going upstairs. Did I see people come? I absolutely did. Did I?
[4:26:55]I just didn't see children. I didn't see anybody I would think of as a child. And if I had seen a child, I wouldn't I I'm
[4:27:04]not sure what I would have done. I mean, did you just talking like coming out a little bit of just bigger picture? Do you at at
[4:27:14]the time that you were in his life, did do you was he a um did he seem to you to be a sexual deviant or or um I don't know what the right way to describe it,
[4:27:26]but when you say to me um he was getting massages every single day, right? So, young women were everywhere. Multiple massages on some days, flew with the women to the island, to New York, um
[4:27:37]Paris. There's always women. They're always rubbing him um giving him massages. Um I think it's it would be an understatement to say that that's not normal. >> I agree.
[4:27:46]>> Um we've all kind of been part of the Epstein um story over the past several years, but you were there at the time. Okay.
[4:27:58]Um, what was it like at the time? I mean, was he a a a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing? Was he protective of how he looked publicly image-wise? Like at the time, what was
[4:28:08]it like? >> I think if he had been creepy, like as you would define, and you would expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be creepy, I don't think the women would
[4:28:19]have been there. I don't think that they thought of him as creepy. And if they did, I never saw them
[4:28:28]behave like he was being weird. Was it a lot? Yes, it was for sure. I found it overwhelming and I couldn't understand
[4:28:38]why it was interesting because to me it's not interesting. Um, but he as he defined it, he found it invigorating. He
[4:28:49]liked being with younger people. And I'm not just younger people. I'm just saying because they gave him ideas and they were up to date on music and
[4:28:58]>> Yeah. But that's different coming. I mean I I mean to me I just found it a drag and
[4:29:08]difficult and annoying. [Applause] >> Did you um >> But understand I wasn't the only person
[4:29:20]present. So this time in the 2000s, you're talking about other people like Sarah Cullen who was around who interfaced with him.
[4:29:30]I didn't have to she she was really interfacing with Epstein at this point in time in his life. She was running his she was his assistants
[4:29:41]>> and so I didn't have to >> That's a fair point. But move beyond the his assistants or the folks that work with him. um what about his friends and the people that were associated with
[4:29:52]him? Um that it couldn't be it doesn't I don't understand how that how this is um an afteract of of of Mr. Epstein. So
[4:30:02]once he's arrested in Florida, it becomes part of his story and then later on um he's charged in the Southern District and then here we are now in 2025. But he was a very successful,
[4:30:13]hardworking guy and he had a lot of clients and he flew with them on vacations and went to the island. It it it doesn't I'm I don't understand how
[4:30:23]he was able to hide this what seems to me to be um some sort of sexual fixation or issue from from others. >> I don't think he did hide it. I think
[4:30:34]that's the answer. And I think that the people around him think myself included obviously normalized his uh behavior on a number
[4:30:44]of fronts. one, I think it because it was a self uh because so many people saw it of so of
[4:30:56]so many of such a high caliber down that never seemed to think it would well if they thought it was strange probably they never said it at the time. So it
[4:31:06]became sort of like it was his thing, right? He was always around with women. Now you don't
[4:31:17]I understand that it's very unattractive especially in light of everything that we know today but at the time the only
[4:31:25]way I can sort of try and describe it is through Sex in the City the movie the
[4:31:37]the the show on telly where the this is that lifestyle is described on the TV constantly. There are always these women
[4:31:46]around and men who like it. And a lot of the men that I know like women and so maybe not as overtly as Epstein, but he
[4:31:58]was overt, not covert, except obviously in the context of the criminal behavior. So what we're discussing now, there's a difference between the criminal behavior
[4:32:08]and the noncriminal. You don't like the lifestyle. I concur. I agree especially now and I
[4:32:17]I own my side of that fence that I was there and that I saw his behavior with women and didn't
[4:32:28]challenge him more or do something. But I don't I don't think back in the '9s or the 2000s we've had a cultural shift.
[4:32:39]And the cultural shift I think is a very important um part of the analysis here. Not because I'm trying to justify this because I'm not and I'm not trying to
[4:32:50]and I absolutely I'm not here to do the poor me program. So please don't misunderstand this. However, in the n in the 2000s when this behavior was going
[4:33:02]down in the initial blush of the Palm Beach investigation, the women who brought the women who were underage age 17, 16,
[4:33:14]I believe, if I'm if my memory serves, were actually targets of the investigation and could have been charged with prostitution and trafficking. I would if trafficking was
[4:33:24]even a law. So you're taking you're taking behavior and I did
[4:33:31]introduce him to women. I I did but not underage women. I understand that there are allegations. I have read them about
[4:33:42]myself going to schools. I can categorically tell you that I have never in my life gone to a school to pick up a child. Uh
[4:33:53]well, not for this purpose. I mean, like my stepchildren or what? Okay. Sorry. Just >> No, I understand. >> Okay. Thank you. I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to be cute or
[4:34:04]anything. Um but and I did look for massuses. I I I did I went to spars and if I met somebody who said she was a
[4:34:14]masseuse, I I did not check their credentials. And of course, if she was attractive, I did introduce her. Yes, if I met friends who were interested, he was constantly asking me for to meet new
[4:34:26]and interesting people. I I did I did do that at the time. I viewed it as well
[4:34:34]first of all part of my job I think or part of my responsibility if you were to introduce because it wasn't just women. if I met somebody who was interesting
[4:34:44]like like Mary Galman or who I thought he would like I did that so it's not exclusively but he did and I did do that >> so
[4:34:54]but then so I want to layer on top of what you just said what we talked about yesterday more but a little bit today already um which is everybody that was around him besides you like his friends
[4:35:05]so I I accept the lifestyle I've seen the photos the fact everybody's we're all going to go to the island for the a couple days or fly on a private plane and there's beautiful women everywhere.
[4:35:15]Um is there any I mean do you as you sit here today think that the people around him um didn't also weren't also of the
[4:35:25]same um place where they were also um getting massages where there was sex going on during them or um or or things
[4:35:36]like that. And I and I'm obviously asking this because that's what the that's what what what everybody has said and when when you just described what what it was like the the very next step
[4:35:48]from that is is everybody's going to Vegas for the weekend, you know, and so and so you it seems kind of far-fetched to say that yes, that was
[4:35:57]his lifestyle, but then when he's taking groups of folks to the island or groups of folks to New Mexico or whatever that they're all um you know going to church in the morning while he's getting a
[4:36:09]massage. >> I I I hear you. I I I was there though and yeah >> and you're talking about very substantial people and you are
[4:36:20]extrapolating because the narrative that started in by the way not until 2009 is when it really started.
[4:36:30]So that narrative that was created and then built upon and it just mushrooded into what basically this is like a Salem witch trial. People go and lost their
[4:36:40]minds for this thing. I understand that. But the issue is how do you satisfy a mob who can't understand the lifestyle
[4:36:50]cuz it's like P Diddy and Redux on TV with Clintons and Trump. I mean, it's it's bananas.
[4:36:59]And whilst some of it is real, he did do those things. I'm definitely not disputing that. But this was a man,
[4:37:10]he didn't even believe he had a real business. I happen to believe he did. Did he grip? I don't I don't know because I wasn't really in his business.
[4:37:19]But this is this is a one man. He's not some They've made him into this ex this He's not that interesting. He's a
[4:37:31]disgusting guy who did terrible things to young kids. You're not going to hear me say what he did to people who are over the age of 18. I I'm sorry. I'm not going to
[4:37:42]go there. That's just not what I'm here to do. I mean I Okay, but to suggest that Larry Summers or uh
[4:38:00]Clinton would suddenly go, "Oh my gosh, this is like a guy I'm going to get my body rubbed and have some sex." The men that went and had a massage and
[4:38:10]maybe did something sexual. I'm in. I I wasn't in the room. I cannot tell you if that happened. And if it
[4:38:20]did, not as I never paid for that. Just so that we're clear. Nobody ever said to me, "Oh, you know, we had sexual intercourse and was a three." Uh-uh. I
[4:38:30]be like, "Okay, TMI. No, not my business. You want It's just not." And I didn't want to know. Maybe there's that. But did I like think these guys were
[4:38:42]coming for that? I really don't. If you met Epstein, there is no way that this cast of characters of which it's extraordinary and some of you in your
[4:38:51]cabinet who you value as your co-workers and you know would be with him if he was a creep or because they wanted sexual
[4:39:01]favors. A man wants sexual favors, he will find that they didn't have to come to Epstein for that. Now did some
[4:39:11]Okay, I don't know. I wasn't there. I didn't see it. >> Um, so when's the last time you think
[4:39:25]you were with Mr. Epstein when he got got a massage? >> Um,
[4:39:36]I want to say 2007. >> 2007. Yes. >> Um, and
[4:39:50]the frequency at that point, so 2007, is that when it was at its peak, would you say? Meaning the number of of
[4:39:59]interactions he was having daily with women and massuses. So >> I wasn't really in his life. I happened to be in the Caribbean in 2000. And I was with Ted
[4:40:10]>> and we I I was still speaking with that team cuz I was still involved in his, you know, loosely with his uh the houses
[4:40:19]and the staff and some of the billing and he and I was going back from being with Ted in the Caribbean to New York and Epste offered me a ride and so Ted
[4:40:30]dropped me off in St. Thomas and I was on the island, I believe, for one day and one night only. on that visit. I believe well I know we
[4:40:40]would have gotten a massage but I have uh there were people there but I did not there were women and I was just relieved
[4:40:52]not to be leaving the next day. >> Um let's take a break. >> We're gonna take a break. The time is 11:31. [Applause]
[4:41:03]We are resuming the audio recorded proper agreement with Ms. Maxwell and the time is 11:49 a.m.
[4:41:12]All right. I wanted to um follow up about um um former President Clinton's relationship
[4:41:23]with Mr. Epstein, not not you. Um can you we touched on it but can you just to set the I have a couple questions about it but what's your
[4:41:34]understanding of their relationship from what you observed meaning for President Clinton and Mr. Epstein, >> I saw them talk. I saw them sit down and
[4:41:45]have chats about I don't know cuz I wasn't either party or didn't listen. Um, and I know I would characterize
[4:41:56]originally anyway Mr. Epste is interested in him because obviously he's the former president, but I never saw him other than that. I saw them be friendly on the plane, but I never I
[4:42:07]don't believe I I don't recollect anyway ever seeing them in any other context. I don't remember him at his house in New York. Like I said, I don't believe he ever went to the island. I think that
[4:42:18]was just a that was a story that I did. >> Do you know one way or the other whether their relationship continued
[4:42:29]without you? Like when you kind of moved on past Mr. Epstein. >> I don't believe so. >> Why do you say that? You don't believe so? >> Because I don't think they had a relationship even when I was there. I
[4:42:40]was I President Clinton liked me
[4:42:48]and we got along terribly well, but I never saw that warmth or that that warmth like however you want to
[4:42:58]characterize it with Mr. Epste and Mr. So, I didn't see that. I didn't see any interest in I didn't see President Clinton being interested in Epstein. He was just a rich guy with a plate.
[4:43:09]>> When when the Southern of New York case kind of became public and there was a search warrant of Mr. Epste's house, there was like a there was some sort of painting or picture with Mr. Clinton and
[4:43:20]and like a blue dress that had been signed. Did you know do you know where he got that picture or that painting? >> The first I saw it was in the press. So
[4:43:28]you never observed that in his um >> brownstone? >> No, I thought it was hideous. >> What's that again? >> I thought it was hideous.
[4:43:39]>> And but you had never So you don't know sitting here today where Mr. Epson got it, the circumstance under which you got it? >> No. Um, do you know of any other
[4:43:50]gifts or paraphernalia or art or pictures that former President Clinton gave to Mr. Epstein?
[4:44:00]>> Um, no. I mean, did he maybe get him a gift? I don't know. I have no knowledge of that. And then going back to the topic we were talking
[4:44:13]about before our last break while when you you said something yesterday at the very beginning of our conversation
[4:44:22]um that when you first met Mr. Epstein um and you ultimately have sex with him that he had um
[4:44:33]I'll use the word erectile dysfunction but he had issues having sex. Um >> that's what he told me. >> That's what he told you. Okay. >> And um and then over the years you said
[4:44:44]sometime in the 90s you started taking testosterone. >> Yes. Um >> I don't know if it was in the 90 I don't remember when he started but it it wasn't he he had patches testosterone patches >> um dermal
[4:44:56]>> like on his arm. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And then he was ridiculous because you shouldn't take more than one but sometimes he had like what are you doing? It's like unhealthy.
[4:45:06]>> Okay. Um, from what you observed or saw or heard, um, did he continue to have challenges sexually over the years or do you think that whatever he told you,
[4:45:17]whatever issue he told you he had was fixed? >> I think it was a lie. >> You think he was lying about what? >> About his erectile dysfunction. >> Oh, you mean you never you don't think he ever had any issues? You think he
[4:45:29]just told you that? >> I that was what I believe today. Yeah. But given if any of the stories are true, he couldn't have had erectile dysfunction. and the thing had priism for Christ's sake. >> Well, that's that's one of the reasons for my questions. I mean, you're right.
[4:45:41]I mean, and again, we're we're we've talked about this a fair amount, but um what did like the stories of of what massuses
[4:45:51]underage and overage have said about him is or you know, and what he liked and what he demanded that they do, whether it's watching him
[4:46:03]masturbate or um pinching his nipples, you know, kind of things that that are um unusual. Um, do you believe that? Like do you from what you saw and from what you observed from what you did when
[4:46:15]your relationship with him um is that true? >> I well the bulk of what I read he did not have sex. So that is consistent with what he told me actually and his
[4:46:27]masturbating that is also consistent with what I knew myself and um I'm going to use a a bad word. >> Please you can use whatever word you need. Yes. >> [ __ ]
[4:46:38]>> Okay. He liked [ __ ] that I did observe. Then he didn't seem to have an erectile dysfunction for [ __ ] But sex he didn't have. So when
[4:46:47]I read the stories about the allegations of sexual rape, I find that challenging because that was not his modus operenda from my perspective.
[4:46:59]>> But when you read about um [ __ ] that does that that would be consistent with >> that would be consistent as would masturbation. Yes.
[4:47:09]Did you talk to massuses or women that either he was in a relationship with or um who asked you
[4:47:19]about working with him? Did you tell them yes, he likes [ __ ] yes, he'll masturbate in front of you? Like, did you have conversations with any of those
[4:47:29]with women about what Mr. Epstein liked or what would make him happy or things like that? I don't have any memory of telling anybody about that. I think I may have
[4:47:40]joked like saying, "Oh my god, you know, like from a Sex in the City scene that uh you know, he's but not I never instruct the question you're asking me." Sorry, let's just be clear.
[4:47:51]>> Did I ever instruct anyone how to pleasure Mr. Epstein? Your question? No. >> Um, and you said this earlier, but I want to just you you kind of said it on on your
[4:48:02]own. And I want to ask the question just so I make sure that there's no confusion. Um >> when
[4:48:12]when you o over the years um >> sorry can I just I just want to say the idea that I would have to explain to a woman how to satisfy with their scene is
[4:48:23]patently absurd because he clearly was able to explain himself. He didn't need an interlocer to explain what he liked. He's been doing this obviously or this some version of this story his whole
[4:48:34]life and did not require any help from me. >> Then um
[4:48:44]so did you did did you ever observe him having sex with a masseuse regular intercourse, not a [ __ ] nothing else where you either walked in or you were in the room?
[4:48:54]>> I never saw I've seen have sex with any person. Um, and so how about um oral sex?
[4:49:06]Did you ever observe a woman giving him oral sex, whether you were in the room or walked in or >> I never I never saw anyone give Epstein a [ __ ]
[4:49:16]>> No. >> Um, but you said earlier you you did see him masturbating in front of massuses. >> I don't know if I said that. I don't know.
[4:49:26]>> Okay. Sorry. I don't want Let me ask a question. Sorry. >> No, that's fair. That's fair. >> I I said I saw him. I'm sure I saw him in a what some people could define as
[4:49:37]sexual context. Somebody could not have their clothes or topless. I would say maybe I I could say that if I saw him having masturbating when someone was
[4:49:47]like I don't recall that. I don't have a specific memory of it. >> But no, I'm not I didn't say that. >> Okay. I understand. That's fair. Sorry, I'm not >> That's okay. >> Surely not trying to put words in your mouth.
[4:49:58]>> No, no. That absolutely not explained. So um and you you said I think in passing maybe not in passing yesterday about
[4:50:10]about you know whether whether other people who travel with him would get massages or so that would I'm when I say that I'm
[4:50:21]referring mostly to the island or potentially New Mexico um but also at the his Palm Beach residence or even in New York Um, do you know can do you have
[4:50:32]a list of names in your head or um names that come to mind of of people that you know did get massages um when they were with Mr. Epstein?
[4:50:43]>> No, there's no list. There's no list of people getting massages. I don't have I can barely recall all the people. I can barely recall.
[4:50:52]I I struggled to recall actual people that I met and I may have met a long time. In fact, I had even forgotten that about Mr. Kennedy or probably brought it up yesterday. It just came to my mind
[4:51:04]now. So, I don't have and there's no list. There was never a list. There was no or certainly none that I ever saw. None I ever heard of. None that I ever witnessed. None that I
[4:51:14]There's no list. There's never been a list. >> And you never heard Mr. Epstein talk about such a list. >> Never. >> Um, and you never heard Mr. Epstein
[4:51:26]suggest that he had some sort of control over somebody because of what he knew about what they had done or had photos of him.
[4:51:36]>> I never heard him. No, I never heard him ask questions about that. I never heard him. So, I've been present many times with massus. I'd never who presumably
[4:51:46]could or maybe did massage somebody. I'm not saying whether they I'm not just in the god. I never heard him ask any question of any masseuse who may have given a massage to a friend that was on
[4:51:58]the island or in Palm Beach or anywhere else for that any details about that massage like does he have a funky foot? No. I I never heard that be weird.
[4:52:09]And I think at one of the breaks today, your lawyer may have showed you um something that just came out in the paper, I think this morning or last
[4:52:19]night, a letter that you that that is attributed to you um associated with this birthday book from 2003 that we
[4:52:29]talked about um yesterday. Is did you see that letter? >> I did see the letter. >> Is that in fact does look like your handwriting or something you wrote? >> So I don't remember the letter. >> Okay. But it does look like my
[4:52:40]handwriting and it does look like my name and it looks like it could be real. But I have no memory of writing that and I I don't remember it at all. >> Do you remember what the birthday book
[4:52:51]as they're calling it? What it like look like? Like how it was put together? >> I do. >> What do you remember about it? >> I remember it. It was leather bound. I remember it being about yay big. It was big. Right. Like
[4:53:03]>> So you're saying it looks like it's like over 12 in 14 15 in. >> Yes. It was like sort of like a folio size I guess or something like that and like this and it was brown and thick
[4:53:14]about this thick. >> Okay. >> And um >> so just so you so I understand >> on heavy stock paper >> heavy stock paper like 14 in high.
[4:53:25]>> That looks about right. And then around like >> well A4 A4 is okay. It had A4 cuz it was done on heavy stock paper but I can't remember if it was folio size paper or
[4:53:36]it could have just been A4. >> Oh I see. So it could have just been letter size or it might have been legal size. Yes. >> Heavy stock paper. >> Yes. And the so the the folks that submitted
[4:53:47]letters were given the stock paper or how were the letters or did you like glue or something the letters to the sock paper >> every which way? Some were given a paper
[4:53:57]and they did their own thing. Some would send me some scrap of paper and I would put it on the thing. Some I didn't get because they went straight to Epstein and I was just told to put them in like
[4:54:09]I said. And how was it bound? >> It went to a professional binder who did it like a book that you'd see in the library. >> So like like the glue that keeps a a
[4:54:20]regular book, a novel that you would read together. It was bound that way. >> I I believe so. I don't think it was stitched, but I don't remember. I mean, it was professionally down by a
[4:54:30]professional book binder. And then after you presented it or after it was presented to him when he turned 50, did you see the leatherbound book?
[4:54:41]Did he keep it somewhere in particular? >> It was in his bookcase in 71st Street >> in Manhattan. >> In Manhattan. >> And did you see it over the years and until you stopped going to the
[4:54:53]Brownstone? >> I saw it. I know I did see it because it was right behind his desk. And after I stopped going, I don't know what happened to it.
[4:55:03]>> Um, do you know, do you remember being told or knowing where the book is now? >> No, but I when I received in discovery
[4:55:14]those pages, I assumed that it had been found when uh either New York or the island was searched and I assumed that the Southern District of
[4:55:24]New York had it. But I think you said yesterday, but just to go over it again in case you remember anything differently, you recall seeing some of the letters in Discovery? >> I do.
[4:55:36]>> But you don't recall kind of seeing the leather book start to finish. >> No, but remember, I didn't see all discovery because they were very clever about, you know, I didn't receive all
[4:55:46]discovery period. And um in fact very important items were not given to me at all including witness testimony from grand jury.
[4:55:56]>> So whether so you don't know one way or the other whether it was part of discovery. You just know that you didn't get it. It wasn't part of discovery that was given to you. >> Correct.
[4:56:05]>> But there I I am absolutely sure that the Sun District of New York hid very important pieces of evidence from me. >> Okay. Um,
[4:56:16]>> and I assumed that they leaked it cuz where else would it be >> if that's what it is? If it's true.
[4:56:27]>> Um, okay. So, I've just So, I put I'll say it to you. I've talked a little
[4:56:36]about it. Um, I said to you yesterday, um, that the purpose of what we did yesterday and today was was exactly what we did, which is to have a conversation
[4:56:47]about about about Mr. Epstein and about you. And um, I think it's it's very challenging to talk about everything we talked about
[4:56:58]in, you know, one and a half days or in in just a period of hours. So, I'll talk to to Mr. Marcus about kind of what
[4:57:08]we're going to do next, if anything. Um, there's no and I don't I'm not being um coy or I I just I don't know yet. I I
[4:57:17]don't know. So, we I have a lot of um we have some work to do. Um we'll do it with your lawyers to to the extent we have questions or followup. Um
[4:57:29]and um this has been very helpful. I I I think it's it was you, you know, who who kind of said you wanted to talk, but but it we
[4:57:41]we gladly accept it. So So I do appreciate you um being willing to meet with us. Um and and I I expect that
[4:57:51]we'll that we'll be in touch um soon. This concludes the recorded proper
[4:58:02]interview of Miss Maxwell. The time is 12:05 p.m. on Friday, July 25th.