[0:00]Out of the disaster and tragedy of Epstein, what is the take-home message? What do you want the world to know? >> That our voice matters. Your voice
[0:12]matters. It's never okay to be sexually abused ever. And that you [clears throat] we have the choice to speak out and that people will listen to
[0:22]you and believe you and that it wasn't your fault. Did you always know you'd been sexually abused?
[0:31]>> No. For a long time I battled with that. Um, for a long time I didn't identify myself as a victim because I willingly went to
[0:42]Jeffrey over and over again. Um but over time just you know when
[0:51]maturity sets in and you become an adult and a woman and you have kids yourself you just look back and you realize that you were definitely a victim and you
[1:01]were prayed on and [clears throat] yeah what was Jeffrey Epstein's skill as a manipulator? you know, how did he get
[1:11]you to come back? As you say, you say willingly, >> but you were drawn into his web. So, how did Jeffrey Epstein manipulate you? How did he get you to come back?
[1:23]>> I think it all started with, for one, it was just a different world. He offered me an unrealistic world. Um, where I came from, I came from a
[1:34]lower income household. um you know I didn't have a personal chef and I didn't have all the things that he offered me
[1:45]and when I went to his house he did pay me each time I went. So it was the money aspect of it and then it was just the unrealistic fairy tale world to go hang
[1:56]out on Palm Beach Island in a mansion and um just get away from my everyday life. Did he offer you any sort of hope of a future?
[2:07]>> Um, I don't He didn't make any promises as if he was going to do anything for me, but he
[2:16]always made the impression on me that I was very lucky to be in his presence and that if I ever needed anything, he was there for me. Like he was my saving grace or,
[2:27]you know, he was helping me. When you consider the world where you came from at that age, how important was it to have somebody who offered you that
[2:38]who who you felt you could trust? It was so important. And I literally held him up on a pedestal.
[2:48]Um Jeffrey, I held him up on a pedestal. I just felt like he was saving my life. um he was helping me just because of the neighborhood I grew up in when I met him
[2:59]and my situation where I was practically homeless living with friends and Jeffrey gave me a stable income, [clears throat]
[3:10]excuse me, a stable income and he just, you know, he made me feel safe. He made me feel like if he I ever needed
[3:21]anything that he would be there for me and that was something I didn't have at that time from anybody. So I definitely fell back on that and relied on him and
[3:31]um I it was an exchange of him molesting me, you know, to for
[3:40]you know him financially helping me. So the cost of what he gave you was to be sexually abused, >> right? >> And that was a trade that you accepted.
[3:52]>> Um I think yeah, it was definitely a trade that I accepted without it hap and it happened all so fast. It
[4:02]wasn't anything that I was planning on happening for sure. And then after it did happen, it just turned into my dirty little secret where I didn't want to
[4:13]tell anybody. Um, and it was just a secret I, you know, I kept to myself. >> Did he ever threaten you? Did he ever
[4:23]tell you not to tell people? >> No, he never he never told me not to tell anybody. >> I guess because he knew he didn't have to. >> Yeah, right.
[4:34]I mean, you were, you look at photos of you at that stage. You're a 14year-old. You're wearing braces. >> You're not the woman you are today, obviously. Did you even feel like a
[4:46]sexual being at that stage? >> No. Um, I think I might have encountered like one sexual experience before going
[4:56]to Jeff and that's what makes it even more uh devastating about it. um that some of my first
[5:06]sexual experiences were with him. Um so no, I wasn't sexually experienced at all going to him the first time.
[5:17]>> Would you have expected a man of his age to have been attracted to you at that stage? You're such a school girl. Such a young thing.
[5:26]>> No. No. I would never expect I did. You know, my mind at that age didn't work that way. And it was just a it was just so confusing at that age and that stage. You
[5:40]considered him somebody to trust, somebody who could have been a lifeline out of the neighborhood you lived in today. How do you view Jeffrey Epstein? I have so many of you know I'm so angry
[5:53]at him and I'm resentful and you know after I met him as a young girl my life drastically changed in so
[6:05]many ways. Um, especially just like my mental state of mind was taken from me for sure. And because of that, I battled with, you know, addiction and, you know,
[6:17]poor coping skills. Um, I'm angry at Jeffrey and I'm upset. I'm hurt. I just have questions.
[6:27]Um, like, why why would you do this to so many girls? Why did you do this to me? Um, [clears throat] but it's so many mixed emotions I have
[6:39]towards that man. He was such a significant part of my life. And when somebody plays a role like that uh for such a long time and you're actually
[6:50]abused by this person, you know, it just takes a toll on you. And I'm just I have anger and, you know, sadness, you know,
[7:00]feelings. When you say he changed your life so significantly, describe yourself to me. What were you
[7:11]like as a 14-year-old before you met Jeffrey Epstein? >> Um, at 14 I was, you know, still in middle school. I was straight A student,
[7:21]sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. Never even got a B. I played the first chair trumpet. I was the captain of the cheerleading squad. Um,
[7:31]and then the summer of going from 8th to 9inth grade was when, you know, my world was kind of flipped upside down and
[7:41][clears throat] I had problems at home as well as, you know, being introduced to Jeffrey. So it was it went from, you know, being
[7:52]active in school um and everything to do with school, wanting to do school work, you know, being a cheerleader and doing all those all those proactive things to
[8:02]just, you know, completely after I met Jeffrey, I just completely quit. I just dropped out. I never went back. It was
[8:12]just night and day difference. when you reflect on your experience, what what do you think is the worst part of it? What's the most enduring damage do you think?
[8:23]>> I think um on my the worst part would be how I've questioned whether I'm a victim or not. Um how I've beat myself up, you
[8:35]know, because the the question of the year is, well, why did you go to him? Why did you continue to go to him when you had the free will not to? And that's
[8:46]a question that I've asked myself, you know, daily. Um, just the the whole [clears throat] manipulation
[8:58]part of that, how he lured girls in like myself that were easy to manipulate and
[9:09]just just the mastermind plan of, you know, I really felt like Jeffrey Epstein was my saving grace at one point. Um, I really looked up to him. I felt like he
[9:20]was a wonderful guy that he was there for me and all along it was just a, you know, a sex ring of underage girls that
[9:31]he was running. And so when you feel some way about somebody that's such a significant part of your life and then you know you grow up to realize that you were just being prayed on, you know, it
[9:43]takes a toll on it takes a toll on you. So, I think that would be probably the most upsetting part.
[9:55]>> Why do you question whether you're a victim? >> Well, um, for a couple reasons. Um, just for the record, I know that I am a
[10:06]victim. But over the years, just because um I did go to him and I went back to him several times on my own will and
[10:15]then because I also brought other girls, I brought my friends, you know, underage as well to him. So, you know, I just hold a lot of guilt and shame for doing
[10:26]those things. And I know how I felt the first time I ever went to his house and was sexually abused by him. And you
[10:35]know, it was one of the most devastating days of my life. And just to know that I had any influence on that happening to
[10:45]somebody else just, you know, it really it's just devastating and breaks my heart. >> How many girls do you think you brought to Jeffrey Epstein?
[10:56]Um, I would say at the minimum minimum 50, but anywhere from 50 to 70 girls. I know that I can't
[11:06]remember the exact number now, but And what were their ages?
[11:12]>> The same ages of me. Um, 14, 15, 16. >> Is there any chance that Jeffrey Epstein didn't know your age or their ages?
[11:23]>> No, absolutely not. He definitely he definitely knew that I was not 18 years old. Um you you could just look at pictures and it's just
[11:33]clear as day that we are young not even women. We are you know teenagers. What uh what impression did you get from
[11:46]Jeffrey about the sorts of girls he wanted you to bring to him? He always just made it clear. Um, like if I brought a girl that resembled me
[11:58]and was young and was his type, quote unquote, you know, he would just always let me know like after he se after I brought a girl, oh, I like her and
[12:08]that's my type. if I brought a girl that was, you know, a little bit older or ma, you know, he would just pull me aside and say, "Hey, Courtney, you know what I
[12:19]like and that's not my type." But it was the younger the better is basically he he didn't say that to me. He didn't
[12:29]say the younger the better, but that was that was what his type was. Anybody I brought young was his type. Anybody else it was like I should have known better.
[12:39]Do you have any doubt of whether he was a pedophile or not? >> No. Today, no. When you know this all happened, like I just just how my mind
[12:51]was just so messed up back and forth, I didn't I didn't want to view him as that because this is somebody that helped me oh so much, you know. But without a shadow of a doubt, yes, he Jeffrey
[13:01]Epstein is a pedophile. How did you come, you know, how did you come to terms with what was actually happening to you that your dirty little
[13:13]secret was actually you being sexually abused, being caught up in a sex ring, as you say? >> Was there a light bulb moment?
[13:23]Yeah, there was um in 2008 when he took his plea agreement, the
[13:32]secret plea deal, um I received a bunch of paperwork of all the victims statements um that they had given to the
[13:41]police, you know, and the first time they ever went to Jeffrey's house. So, I received all these, you know, documents and I remember one night I just stayed
[13:52]up and I I read them and there were just it was me and all these and all these um documents. It was if I could say if I could describe the first
[14:03]time I went to Jeffrey's house, it was page after page. It was what these girls had wrote. And at that moment, I was like just a light bulb went off and I'm
[14:15]like, "Okay, this is it was such an emotional time. I just like fell to my knees and started crying like, you know, this I've been sexually abused by this
[14:27]man and this isn't my fault and who do I tell?" >> And could you tell someone? Was it an easy step?
[14:38]So, um, throughout this whole case, there's never been justice. And it started back in 2008 with the secret, um, plea deal that
[14:49]Jeffrey was offered by the state of Florida. And, um, so at this time, you know, there was a federal ina
[14:59]investigation happening and the you feds were asking me questions and everything else. Well, when I come to the realization that, okay, well, I've
[15:09]been sexually abused by this man. What What am I going to do about it? I started calling um the US government saying, leaving messages, hi, my name is
[15:19]Courtney Wild. I'm a victim of Jeffrey Epstein. I would just like to know where the case is, what's going on with the case. Um, I just want information. And
[15:29]nobody would call me back. Uh, I never got a direct answer of what was happening with anything.
[15:36]Um, I soon, you know, was it was represented by Brad Edwards. I found my attorney. Um,
[15:47]and it was something that we, you know, went through together. Uh, I I remember countless times Brad calling me and saying, "Courtney, they are violating your rights. You have rights and they
[15:58]are violating them. They, you know, they just kept everything was just a huge secret." And it's been a huge huge secret this whole time. >> Did Jeffrey Epstein ever try and pressure you not to say anything to the
[16:09]authorities about what had happened between you two? >> I had one incident where I was a waitress at a little bagel shop
[16:19]and his investigators came there like just trying to prime me to talk to them. And when you know I respectfully said no
[16:29]that I couldn't talk to them at that point I was at work or whatever they just became very aggressive and [clears throat] they tried to like you know block the entrance to my work where I couldn't get
[16:40]back in it where I had no choice but to talk to them and then soon you know my supervisor was involved and you know they ended up leaving but I did have one
[16:51]incident like that with them. >> What was the message from them? What were they trying to get you? >> I still don't know. I still don't know. And I I wonder what they were what they
[17:00]wanted or what they wanted to say to me. I'm not even sure. >> In terms of the the the case and finding out about the case,
[17:12]did you when did you discover that there had been a secret deal and that's why you couldn't make any progress? Well, I didn't discover that until, you
[17:23]know, Brad I h I hired Brad Edwards to be my attorney. And I received a whole bunch of paperwork. You know, I received a letter from the
[17:33]government stating that this could be a lengthy process and that please be patient with them, that they, you know, are going to confer with me to let me know what's going on, but to just be
[17:43]patient. So, you know, once I once I was with Brad, I ended up giving him the
[17:51]letters and then all come to find out, you know, that the secret plea agreement deal was already was already signed,
[18:01]sealed, and delivered on the date that they sent me that letter. So, I'm sorry, you know, before. So, by the when that letter was wrote, you know, it the the
[18:12]deal was already done. So, the government lied to you, >> right? >> They said they'd tell you, they'd let you know how it was progressing and it had all been done. >> Mhm.
[18:23]>> How do you feel about that? >> It's just, you know, the same government that's supposed to protect me um worked with the perpetrator against
[18:35]me. So, it's it's so upsetting. It's um you know trust issues to the fullest to
[18:45]say the least. You know when it comes to our government I don't have much faith in them because of what they've done to
[18:54]me. you know, to be sexually abused by a man and have the government know and then actually, you know, co-conspire
[19:04]with the perpetrator to make sure nothing happens with to him is just so it just sounds unreal. [snorts]
[19:14]>> It It does. It except it is real. >> Except it is real. >> And it happened to you plus a whole heap of other women, >> right? Why do you think the government did
[19:24]that? >> My personal opinion about that is, you [sighs and gasps] know, money power
[19:33]and I think that there was a lot of people involved in this um this underage minor sex ring that they were running.
[19:44]And I think everybody wanted it to go away. I don't think that um I think that they wanted Jeffrey to get off. I don't whatever information he knew about, you
[19:55]know, the higherups that rule the world basically was enough to um keep everybody everybody quiet.
[20:06]>> So, you believe that there was a conspiracy at play here? >> Oh, absolutely. Yeah. >> It wasn't that they were just intimidated by Jeffrey Epstein's lawyers and his money and the fight that would go on for years, but that there was an
[20:16]actual conspiracy. >> I do believe that. I believe both. I believe that because of his who, you know, his wealth and his attorneys, I think that, but I also believe there was
[20:28]a conspiracy. >> What aspect of the secret deal angers you the most? Um, [sighs] the fact that pretty much all my civil
[20:39]rights were violated as a crime victim, that would be pretty upsetting. Um, the fact that the government revictimized me, I was sexually abused by somebody
[20:51]and then basically they took it took 11 years litigating back and forth with the government for them to, you know, finally declare that yes, my rights were
[21:02]violated. and um the government was wrong um to Yeah. So that's just the whole thing. I mean uh
[21:14]for them to just constantly um treat me with unfairness and no respect
[21:24]and it's just it's just upsetting. Why do you believe the victims were cut out of this? Why do you believe this deal was done where the victims were not
[21:36]told of the outcome? >> I I because that that would have never happened. I feel if the victims were involved, there's no way [clears throat]
[21:48]if they would have told me, okay, um he's going to sign a plea for 18 months. He's never going to go to prison. he's actually going to stay in his own
[21:58]private cell and the you know if I would have known that that were there's no way that I wouldn't have showed up at that court date and fought for my voice to be
[22:09]heard and fought for justice if we were aware and there's many of us that you know were in that position to want to do that and um it would have never happened
[22:20]I feel and they knew that >> the nonprosecution agreement wouldn't have happened He would have gone to jail, >> right, >> for longer. >> Right.
[22:31]>> What's your view of the deal done regarding the co-conspirators? So,
[22:41]everybody needs to be held accountable and that's just the bottom line, you know. Um, every we're, you know, we're all adults.
[22:54]We all know what we did. They know what they did. And anybody who was involved with Jeffrey Epstein's um sex ring of underage girls needs to be held
[23:05]accountable. >> The fact that prosecutors were prepared to say, "No, we're not going to hold them accountable. We're not going to hold the ones we know accountable, and
[23:16]nor will we ever hold any new names accountable." It just makes you It makes you like
[23:25]scratch your head. It makes you question um our government. It makes you question a lot of things. Um what you we
[23:36]literally can buy almost anything here in America is what is the standard they sat they set, you know. Um,
[23:46]and just the example that they propose to anybody else with money, hey, you know, that this is okay, that you could do
[23:55]this, you know, um, just because he had his wealth. And I mean, it literally um, saved him from going to prison and
[24:07]actually being held accountable for everything he's done and his co-conspir. Wow. I mean, you you you've said to me that
[24:18]your life really spiraled out of control. I mean, you you have spent more time in jail >> for your drug related problems than Jeffrey Epstein spent in jail. >> Is any part of that fear in your mind?
[24:33]>> Yeah. Um during the time that I was incarcerated, that's what I I was just so angry cuz I'm thinking, okay, [clears throat] here I am paying the, you know, doing the time for my crime or
[24:45]however you want to say it. And then I would just think about Jeffrey, how he was, you know, probably in Paris or in on his own private island and probably
[24:56]sexually abusing young girls just like myself, you know, and it's it's just it's just mindboggling.
[25:06]It just is to think about, you know, it's so upsetting and just change needs to happen and justice needs to be served because still to this day there's not
[25:17]any justice being served when it comes to this case. H >> how do you see justice playing out? If it was to be served, what would it look like today now that Epstein is dead?
[25:28]I think that um first and foremost um the co-conspirators be held accountable and you know
[25:38]sentenced to jail time sentenced to [clears throat] sentenced to jail time. Um I also feel
[25:49]that all the victims deserve at least an apology from the government. we at least deserve an explanation. Hey, we did this because of this.
[26:01]Whether if it's the truth hurts type thing, but I I myself and other victims want to know why. Why did you sweep us under the rug and
[26:13]act like we didn't matter? Why did this man get to continue roam the streets freely and sexually abuse other young girls when you knew what he was doing?
[26:23]This was no secret. Like I think that we deserve that, you know, and I mean, and that would be the least what you would think would be an apology
[26:35]letter. You know, there's no price on your mental health. You know, there's no price on um sexually abusing somebody.
[26:47]So, you know, how do we make it right? I think the first thing is to hold these people accountable and to at least apologize. Give us a reason on what happened. Everything's so secretive
[26:58]still. Well, what is your view of the case being dismissed because of the death of Jeffrey Epstein? >> Um, [sighs]
[27:09]I'm very upset about that as well. This year has been I don't want to say an amazing year, but a lot of a lot has happened this year about the Jeffrey
[27:20]Epstein case. And um I do take pride in the fact that he was finally, you know, apprehended in New York. Um, I feel like
[27:32]that the CV case, my, you know, my case against the government definitely persuaded that, um, to happen, which I take pride in.
[27:43]Um, but however, the ruling is so it's just confusing on the fact that Jeffrey
[27:53]Epstein, you know, death and is dead now, so he dismissed the case. But I'm just confused because I sued the government for violating my rights. Um,
[28:04]the remedy when we were coming up with remedies did involve Jeffrey Epstein being that, you know, one all the victims would be able to confront him
[28:14]one by one. Um, so a lot of the remedies did have to do with Jeffrey. So that's one of the main reasons the judge said
[28:24]that he was dismissing it because okay well this person's not even alive anymore. So if the remedies include him and he's not here then there is no remedy basically. However, there's other
[28:35]live co-conspirators that that are alive and here there's people that are alive that need to be held accountable for the ring that they you know ran for Jeffrey.
[28:46]Jeffrey didn't do this all by himself. He did not, you know, he didn't schedule the appointments. He didn't talk to the girls. He didn't go find the girls. You
[28:56]know, he had people doing it for him. And these people need to be held accountable. So, the fact that the judge dismissed my case due to his death is just very
[29:06]confusing and upsetting because although I take pride in, you know, him finally being apprehended because of the CV, at the end of the day, that's not justice.
[29:18]you know, at the end of the day, Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide, and he has never paid the price for his
[29:27]actions, but somebody needs to. So, it's just confusing and it's upsetting. And um, you know, I hope that the appeal goes through.
[29:37]>> I was going to say, do you do you expect one day for justice to be served? I do and I feel like it's a long shot, you know. Um I've talked to my attorneys
[29:49]and one of my attorneys has said, you know, Courtney, there's like a 1% chance that we can come back on this appeal. But um this whole experience has been
[29:59]super crazy and um things keep on happening that nobody would expect. So, you know, I'm just giving it my all. I'm
[30:08]putting everything in on that 1%. Um, and I just pray that justice is served. Definitely. >> 11 years on, what is driving you?
[30:20]>> Um, it's kind of funny because I before I wouldn't be able to answer that question. I've always thought, Courtney, why it's been, why are you doing this?
[30:30]This is like pointless. This is going to go on and on. It's going to be prolonged for years so nothing comes of it. Um, but today I know that I'm doing this and
[30:42]I'm driving, you know, I've been for the past 11 years doing this just because, you know, I it's I want to give back. Um, I want
[30:51]to empower other women who have had hard lives, who have been sexually abused as kids and don't know how to cope with
[31:01]their problems and, you know, turn to drugs and ultimately prison and, you know, have struggled. And I just want to share my story and let these people know
[31:11]that they're not alone and that, you know, bad things happen to good people and we all have the power to change our future. And if you've been ever sexually
[31:22]abused or anything like that, that people will believe you and that it's not your fault that that happened. And um
[31:32]and justice needs to be served. People need to be held accountable. It's not okay to sexually abuse anybody. And so for the past 11 years, I've just been fighting to get that message across that
[31:44]it doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter if you have money or not. Um, you don't deserve to be treated that way. So,
[31:55]>> do you feel like you're being heard? >> Yeah. Um, so why are you crying? >> I know. [snorts] I do. I do finally feel like I'm being
[32:06]heard. And it's it's a good it's a good cry, you know. Um and I I take pride in that that people
[32:17]are listening to me and believing me um and standing in my corner and supporting me through all this because it's intimidating to go against um somebody
[32:28]of such power and wealth. [snorts] Um, but yeah, I do feel like my voice is being heard. And if I could just get to
[32:40]one person, you know, and just, you know, if one person sees me on TV or hears about me and says, "Okay, hold on. She could do it." Then so could I, you
[32:50]know, that's just that's what it's about at this point. >> What was it like to go to New York and and face Jeffrey Epstein in court?
[33:00]Um, so it was it was bittersweet. I just kept on preparing myself for when
[33:10]I seen him in the courtroom. I was like, "Okay, Courtney, you got this. You got this." But like as soon as he walked out and I could I looked at him, it just
[33:19]brought back so many memories of him, you know, almost like flashbacks of like this the abuse and stuff. Um,
[33:28]however, I got to voice that I felt like he should not be left, you know, be let out on bond and that he sexually abused me. And I got to say that in open court
[33:39]where he actually had to hear my voice. He had to listen to that. So, it was so bittersweet because I got to face him and [clears throat] I got to say, "Hey,
[33:49]you know, my name's Courtney Wild and I'm a victim of Jeffrey Epste and he sexually abused me as a young girl." you know, and just to say that, make him
[33:58]listen to it was um it was a wonderful thing for me. It really was. >> And so that testimony helped keep him
[34:09]behind bars even before his case was heard. His his bail was denied. >> Mhm. >> And how do you feel about that? Um, I feel that I for one am just so
[34:25]thankful that the judge gave me the opportunity to even speak and for two um the fact that I had an influence on um him remaining behind bars was just like
[34:35]so powerful for me because um if anybody knows that man the way I do, he's just not going to stop being, you know, um I want to say sexual
[34:47]predator to young girls. Like there was no way he was just going to stop. He wasn't just going to go home and not do that. Um I don't think he would have
[34:56]anyway. So it was just it it was just a powerful moment for me. >> Just speaking to that his sort of compulsion, what predatory behaviors did
[35:07]you see in your time with Jeffrey Epstein? >> He just became um it was just you could tell his addiction wasn't drugs or alcohol. It was definitely young girls
[35:18]and if I couldn't bring him a girl or if um I wanted to bring him a girl and they canled or whatever the situation was if the
[35:27]girl was not brought to him, you know, um he would just get rude and snippy and it was just he would get upset and yell,
[35:38]you know, call and yell and it was just over over from when I first met him till the last, you know, the days that I
[35:47]stopped um dealing with him, he was just, you could just tell it was definitely an obsession. And when he didn't get his obsession, he just would
[35:57]get so mad. When you first went into that house here at Palm Beach, I mean, to see other girls there, to know that he was he was
[36:08]having sex with other girls while he still wanted you there. How did you reconcile that as a 14-year-old? >> Well, as a 14-year-old, I don't even think my mind went there. Like, I don't
[36:20]think I was aware like, okay, these are sex slaves and these like I legit thought that these were like just models
[36:29]or I was so confused and I never asked. It was kind of like don't ask don't tell with a lot of things. the whole situation with him,
[36:40]you know, and the girls were definitely one of them, but I never thought that, you know, these girls were being sexually abused, too. I don't know why
[36:48]my mind didn't go there, but um it was just from the moment I walked into his Palm Beach mansion, I just knew
[36:59]that something was wrong. Okay, why does this man want me here? I'm 14 years old. Um, I have braces on half of my teeth.
[37:10]Um, homeless. And it's not like I didn't tell him these things, you know. I shared very intimate details about my life with him. And that's how why I felt
[37:21]so safe around him, you know. So, it was from the first day that I was there, I just knew that something was wrong. I just couldn't put my finger on it. in the complicated
[37:33]case of Jeffrey Epstein and all the young girls who were caught in his web. And it was part of it that he was likable. Was part of it that that you
[37:44]you you wanted him to like you? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I remember [clears throat] being so excited to go to his house. Like when he would call me and say,
[37:55]"Hey, you know, you come spend the day here." I'd be so excited. And he he was a likable guy. I don't know if it was just like I wanted to like him because
[38:05]he did give me money and he did, you know, do these things for me or if I really cared for him. But I mean, at 14,
[38:15]15 years old, it's not hard to manip manipulate a child's mind. You know what I mean? So I feel like he definitely but and I wanted him to like me, you know? I
[38:26]wanted to like him. I wanted [clears throat] a better life. I didn't know, you know, I wanted a way out of my reality and he was that for me.
[38:36]And so in dealing with your feelings about his death and the case, is it also complicated about still liking him to a degree or having
[38:47]feelings for him? >> And it's so complicated. Um, when I first initially heard that he committed suicide,
[38:56]I was sad for probably two days. I was so sad. I I felt um so sorry for his family and I just felt it was like
[39:07]definitely a moment of silence, you know, and then, you know, with him being just such a sign significant part of my life.
[39:18]Um, there was a time where I felt like I did care for him, you know, and that's just confusing when you break it
[39:29]down. Like, you know, you start questioning, okay, what's what is wrong with me? Like, there's got to be something wrong with me to feel any empathy towards this man who sexually abused me and did all these things to
[39:40]me. Why do I care? you know, um, and I still feel sad about it to a degree just because I'm a kind-hearted
[39:50]per I can't, you know, change that about myself. But I'm I'm so angry that man Jeffrey Epstein has done nothing but lie,
[40:01]manipulate, and find a way out of every situation he's encountered when it comes to He has never faced justice. He has never been
[40:12]held accountable. And you know, when we were in New York and the judge gave all the victims the chance to um, you know, speak their peace, I just
[40:24]remember looking around the courtroom and literally the only thing missing is Jeffrey, [snorts] you know, and that it was just like
[40:34]it was just crazy. It's just crazy. Do you have any doubt today that he's a monster? >> No. No doubt.
[40:46]>> To look around that courtroom to meet the other women >> Mhm. >> the victims, the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein. What's that been like for you? >> Um,
[40:56]it's actually such an amazing experience. uh for so long. I've heard about so many I've heard about all the other victims all over and it was just
[41:07]like phantom people because you hear I've heard about them for the past 11 years but when we all went to court in New York it was like okay these are real
[41:19]people the here's you know over 30 women and you have no choice but to look at them and hear their story and it's just
[41:28]it's it's unbelievable the monster he really really was. You know, the monster [snorts] I had in my mind, you know, just did that to me. But when you hear
[41:38]the same story just about time after time after over 30 women, it's just it's just there's no words for it. But
[41:49]when me and these women are together, it's a bond and that we only share. And it's a very it's a very weird feeling.
[41:58]It's an empowering feeling as well. Um, like I could just you could just it's just the whole vibe in the room like when me, Virginia, Michelle, Jenna,
[42:10]Lisa, when we were all together, it's just an empowering strength that and we all just share something common. It's just it's it's amazing and we're definitely bonded for
[42:21]life, all of us. to learn of Virginia's experience with Epstein that that she like you was abused but she was also trafficked.
[42:31]>> Uh what you know did you what was again your reaction to her experience her story that she shared with you?
[42:41]Virginia is such a strong, amazing woman and um I just I couldn't I could never relate to with what she's been through when it
[42:52]comes to that because my circumstances were a little bit different. But um the fact that she's taking this she's taking such a negative time in her
[43:03]life and making it a positive thing just speaks volumes, you know, of the person she is. And um I'm just so sorry so it it just
[43:14]breaks my heart that she had to deal with that. You all had to deal with it, >> right? I know. >> Do you feel that it it seems like you're
[43:27]turning your anger into the fight? >> That that's what's maintaining the fight. This anger. That's a positive, isn't it? >> Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way of putting it, too.
[43:38]>> It's a good way to deal with anger. Yes. So, where does the fight end? Well, um, moving forward,
[43:49]you know, besides the appeal and doing all that, um, for me, the fight ends where I just want
[43:58]to, I guess, give back. Um, I want to start a nonprofit organization helping women that were in
[44:07]my situation at that time, you know, um, at that age, 14. Not just women, men, too. Um, I I just want to uh be an impact on a
[44:21]better a better world, you know. Um, and I just want to be a part of it. And when you say give back, what why is
[44:31]it giving back? >> Well, I feel like um there when you're sexually abused and you have somebody who's lived through
[44:42]this, you know, lived through the same thing you have and you you can relate. Um there's a c there's something there's a chemistry that happens between those two people that are just like inexplainable.
[44:54]And for me, that's kind of like a sense of therapy, you know, me sharing my testimony um with women who have or men that h
[45:04]have gone through my struggle. And it's just a freeing moment, you know,
[45:13]you laugh, you cry, and it just makes me feel better. And as long if that's helping other people, then that's my
[45:23]definition of giving back. Is there any way that what happened with the girls here
[45:33]in Florida where this deal was kept secret from them as the victims of sex abuse? Could that ever happen again?
[45:41]>> No. Okay. So, just recently they're passing a bill. It's still they still haven't signed off on it yet, but it's
[45:50]called um it used to be the CVR, which is the Crime Victim's Rights Act, but it's been proposed that they're going to
[46:00]change it to the Courtney Wild Crime Victims Rights Reformed 2019. And so, basically, it would change the
[46:12]law. um it would change the crime victim's rights act and to make sure that that can't happen again.
[46:21]Um there was just in the CVA there were loopholes that the government definitely used to their advantage to be able to do what they did to me and the other victims. And so they will not those
[46:33]loopholes will now be um closed as well as you know [clears throat] making sure that the victims are treated with um fairness, kindness, you know, dignity,
[46:45]respect. Um making sure that you have an attorney. Um, my attorney Brad Edwards took this case on with the CV pro bono
[46:55]and there's not a lot of people that would fight for 11 years on a pro bono on that case specifically. Um, [clears throat] however, now if you
[47:06]can't get an attorney, one will be appointed to you. Um, if somebody doesn't want to take a pro, you'll have an attorney. If the government now
[47:14]violates your rights um under the CVA, you are eligible to um to sue them for
[47:24]monetary settlement where it was in the law before that you cannot sue the government for monetary settlement. Um,
[47:34]yeah. So, it's it's it's amazing, you know. Um, just to know that somebody else isn't going to have to go through that, you know, and it's so it's so
[47:45]bittersweet because it happened to me. So, it's like, okay, well, thanks, you know, [laughter] but in the same way, it's paying it forward and it's never going to happen to anybody else again. You you don't
[47:56]ever have to worry. So, it's an amazing it's an amazing thing and I'm couldn't be I couldn't be more happy and I couldn't be more proud.
[48:07]>> Your fight has made a real difference. >> Yeah. Thank you. [snorts] Okay, just two last things to cover off on. Um, the co-conspirators, were were
[48:17]you ever sexually abused by any of the co-conspirators? Um, no. Only I had a sexual relation with Nadia.
[48:28]Um, but nobody else. So, well, she's considered one of them. So, yes, I did. So just in terms of understanding the
[48:44]>> the role that these co-conspirators played, they they weren't just recruiters, were they? No. Um
[48:54]no. Well, Nadia is kind of a you know, it's kind of a weird
[49:03]weird thing. Um no, but they had different roles definitely. um finding the girls, you know, showing the girls, you know, the first time they
[49:14]went, you know, showing them what to do, how to, you know, what he liked, how to set up the massage table, kind of talking you through it. I mean, those
[49:23]are all roles for um people to be held accountable for. And were you ever trafficked or were you ever at the risk of being trafficked to
[49:34]other men? There was, you know, there was a time where Jeffrey did call me and ask me to come over to meet a friend. And at that
[49:45]point, um, I can't remember what kept me from going or not, but I didn't make it. So, I was definitely at risk for that.
[49:55]>> Did he say who his friend was? >> No, he just told me that it was a um friend of his that was a magician. So, >> is there anything else you'd like to add? No.
[50:06]>> Thank you so much. >> Thank you.