[0:03]Hi everyone, I'm Maggie McGrath, senior editor at Forbes. The Justice Department's latest release of documents related to Jeffrey Epstein shows new ties with some of the world's most
[0:14]powerful people, including billionaires Richard Branson, Bill Gates, and Elon Musk. There has been widespread fallout with the UK police arresting Andrew
[0:24]Mountbatton Windsor, formerly Prince Andrew, on Thursday for alleged misconduct in public office based on these new files. Joining us to discuss this fallout and the billionaire names
[0:36]we have seen in the Epstein files is my colleague John Hyatt. He's a New York City-based Forb staff writer covering Wall Street. John, thanks so much for being here.
[0:46]>> Thanks for having me, Maggie. So, we were talking before we started recording about how there have been a number of releases of Epstein Files, but it feels like the most recent release is the one that really broke open the
[0:58]Forbes universe. Can you talk about how monumental the most recent document release is as it relates to our understanding about these powerful men and their ties to Jeffrey Epstein?
[1:09]>> Yeah. So, the recent document release, which is over three million uh documents, uh released as part of the Epstein Files Transparency Act, really
[1:18]does shed light on the inner workings of Jeffrey Epstein's social, business, and sex trafficking networks, which uh the documents show were very intermingled in
[1:30]a way that I think a lot of folks knew about, but couldn't really dig into in a way that they can now that we have uh pretty much all of Epstein's correspondence over years long periods
[1:42]of time. And so what these new files show is uh the network that Epstein cultivated among the rich and powerful uh which includes many of the
[1:53]billionaires that we cover at Forbes regularly. Two of his closest business associates were uh Les Wexner and Leon Black. Uh Les Wexner is a fashion and
[2:04]retail mogul who founded the limited behind brands like Victoria's Secret. And Leon Black is one of the wealthiest people on Wall Street. He co-founded Apollo Global Management, the private
[2:14]equity firm. Uh but you know, Epstein's relationships were not just limited to these billionaires. He also cultivated friendships and other sorts of relationships with a lot of powerful
[2:25]people including household names like Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Sergey Brin. These are some of the wealthiest people in the world and uh Epstein had relationships with them.
[2:37]>> We'll get into the stories behind some of these men in just a second, but I'm curious as we talk about the fallout from the release of these files. What's your sense of the breakdown between
[2:48]those who have lost jobs or stepped down from positions versus those who are under increased scrutiny? Are we seeing
[2:56]more in one bucket versus another? Well, I think what we're seeing is a sort of geographical disparity in terms
[3:05]of how Epstein associates are uh being held to account. If you look at the United Kingdom, for example, you have, of course, Prince Andrew, as you
[3:14]mentioned up front, being arrested on suspicion of uh violating the law when he was a trade ambassador uh sharing potentially sharing confidential
[3:24]information with Jeffrey Epstein. He's under investigation now. Um, you have Pete Mandelen, um, you know, a very prominent UK labor politician have to
[3:35]resign and step down after revelations of his ties, uh, to Epstein. Uh, in Norway, you know, you had a prominent politician having to step down. Whereas in the US, the uh, you know,
[3:45]accountability has perhaps been less so. uh perhaps in part because there's just so many US figures who have ties to Epstein that the public uh as well as
[3:55]you know justice systems are trying to dig through all the documents and understand the nature of Epstein's relationships with all these individual people and you know we should note upfront that his relationships with
[4:06]people really did vary in terms of the extent to which he knew them the extent to which he interacted with them uh because he was a a serial networker in addition to being you know a serial sex
[4:16]trafficker he was somebody who was constantly emailing, constantly setting up dinners, constantly trying to insh himself in the lives of the rich and famous, which he achieved to varying degrees of success depending on those
[4:27]people's uh willingness to uh engage with him. Uh but yeah, in the US, you know, we're still sort of seeing the fallout live. Of course, the President Donald Trump was, you know, a longtime friend of Epstein before that
[4:39]relationship uh fell apart for uh somewhat mysterious reasons around 2005, 2006. Uh and so of course you know that figures into uh you know justice
[4:49]department's handling of the release as well. You know there are a lot of redactions that uh folks who have been reading through the files don't believe should be there. So you know it's really
[5:00]a chaotic situation right now as governments around the world and institutions around the world uh grapple with uh these revelations.
[5:10]>> That's really good context. And let's get into some of the details. You mentioned Les Wexner, but he testified in front of US lawmakers on Wednesday
[5:21]and he he says that he visited Jeffrey Epstein's island for quote a few hours, but denied any knowledge of alleged
[5:29]abuse. I think other reports say that he said that he was naive, foolish, and gullible or he confessed to feeling that
[5:38]way for trusting Jeffrey Epstein. But John, take us through who is Les Wexner and why is it so important to know about
[5:49]his appearance in the Epstein files. >> So, let's back up to the late 1980s, early 1990s when Epstein and Les Wexner meet. At the time, Epstein was a
[6:00]littleknown former Bear Sterns trader who uh kind of cast a mysterious uh personality and figure on Wall Street. Didn't seem clear where he was getting
[6:11]his money from, but clearly was wealthy. Uh but by no means was he wealthy like Lex Westerner was at that time. As I mentioned, he's the founder of the Limited. Uh he built a massive retail
[6:22]empire of thousands of stores. uh and he was one of the wealthiest men in the world uh by the early 1990s. And you know, Epstein and Wexner meet and they
[6:33]develop a relationship, a friendship it appears. Uh and before long, Jeffrey Epstein is managing Les Wexner's finances. And he's doing so with uh the
[6:44]extraordinary power of attorney that was given to him by Wexner. So this means that Epstein was in full control of Les Wexner's finances. He could borrow money. he could sell assets. He could
[6:55]basically do what he ever he wanted with Les Wexner's extraordinary billionaire portfolio. Uh Wexner ultimately paid Epstein something to the tune of you
[7:06]know well over hundred million I think approaching $200 million. Uh and you know, Waxner was Epstein's key client during the 1990s while Epstein was uh
[7:17]creating with the aid of Galain Maxwell and other co-conspirators his global sex trafficking network of minors. Uh Wexner denies knowing anything about it. Uh but
[7:28]you know, he was an unindicted co-conspirator uh in you know, US Justice Department uh investigations of uh Epstein. But uh
[7:38]yeah, there is no Epstein without Wexner. >> There is no Epstein without Wexner. Do we know what happens next for Wexner? He he just testified this week. Do we know anything about what next week or the
[7:49]following look like? Does he have further testimony that we can expect? >> Not that I'm aware of, but I mean he will continue to be under the microscope. I think for as long as the
[8:00]Epstein files fallout continues, uh, you know, people are going to be following Les Wexner and trying to dig up more information on the nature of their relationship. Why did Les Waxner give
[8:10]Jeffrey Epstein power of attorney over his entire finances? Why did he give so much trust to uh, Epstein? >> When we talk about the flow of money to Jeffrey Epstein, I think it's very
[8:22]important to talk about Leon Black. And you had a really interesting story, John, with the headline, how Picasso, Van Gogh, and Seaison helped finance
[8:31]Epstein client Leon Black's billionaire lifestyle. Can you break that down for us? Who is Leon Black and what was his relationship to Jeffrey Epstein?
[8:42]>> Leon Black is a private equity billionaire. He founded Apollo Global Management and was its largest individual shareholder. uh he and
[8:51]Epstein met in the 1990s. Uh the two became friends and you know in 2008 uh Jeffrey Epstein pleads guilty uh to
[9:02]counts of prostitution and procuring a minor in Florida. Uh serves jail serves uh you know is on house arrest and you know while he's trying to restore and
[9:12]rehabilitate his reputation in the 2010s. Epstein and Black rekindle their relationship. Uh the Epstein files show that the two were close and were often
[9:23]getting drinks, getting dinner together, getting breakfast together. Uh around this time and between 2012 and 2017, uh Epstein and Black enter into a formal
[9:34]business relationship together in which Epstein is advising Black, who is becoming wealthier all the time. His firm Apollo had just gone public in 2011. He's sitting on a massive
[9:45]multi-billion dollar fortune. Uh, and Black hires Epstein as a tax and estate planning advisor, somebody to work with folks in Black's own family office to
[9:56]not just help manage money, but to devise creative ways to, uh, grow his fortune. So, for example, uh Epstein was involved in helping to collateralize
[10:06]Leon Black's massive art collection in order to take on hundreds of million dollars of debt uh to so he could, you know, avoid selling capital gains taxes on this tremendous art collection that
[10:18]Leon Black has built up over decades. He's really used that as a as a piggy bank in a way to get loans from banks. And Epste kind of helped with that. Epste helped advise on
[10:28]various estate planning matters. Uh, you know, Black has said that, uh, Epste ultimately did help Black save uh, up to
[10:38]a billion dollars uh, in tax taxes that he might have owed uh, through estate planning means. Uh, when Leon Black was ultimately, you know, retired from
[10:48]Apollo in 2021, uh, the firm hired an independent law firm which also found uh, that uh, Epste helped Black save a lot of money on taxes. But I mean it was
[10:59]an extraordinarily costly uh service uh that Epstein provided Black. He Black paid Epstein $170 million between 2012
[11:09]and 2017 uh for uh purported tax and estate planning services. And that's an extraordinary number. It's not a number you see with other sophisticated uh
[11:20]financial advisors and analysts hired by billionaires to help manage their finances. Uh, and so it does beg the question of, you know, what exactly was Leon Black paying Jeffrey Epstein so
[11:31]much money for? Uh, and you know, Black has denied all wrongdoing uh, in connection with Jeffrey Epstein. >> And are we close to getting an answer to the question that you just asked, or are
[11:42]we not going to see US lawmakers interrogate Leon Black? >> We might. I mean, it is clear that the two had a social relationship and that
[11:52]women were involved in that uh social relationship. Uh Bloomberg recently reported uh on a woman who uh was affiliated with Epstein, who ultimately
[12:03]received uh over a million dollars in gifts from Leon Black during the time that Black and Epstein were uh in business together. Um and so, you know,
[12:14]the nature of that relationship might be opened up further. Uh, you know, there Leon Black has a lot to to answer for. He has denied all wrongdoing, but uh, you know, his money really helped
[12:25]sustain Jeffrey Epstein from 2012 to 2017. He was Epstein's primary client bankrolling uh, his advisory and tax business. And, you know, during this
[12:35]time, we know uh, according to lawsuits, documents uh, that Epste continued to operate a sex trafficking network. He was no longer f focused on minors, but
[12:46]he was essentially importing women from Europe uh through modeling agencies and through contacts to sort of be a part of this uh trafficking network. Uh and so
[12:57]and that dozens and dozens of women were abused during this time and uh you know so you know Leon Black has claimed to not have knowledge of you know Epstein's uh activities here and that he you know
[13:09]did not participate in any wrongdoing in connection to Epstein. Uh but the two were close friends and uh it does raise some questions. >> It raises significant questions given
[13:19]the financial involvement and and the friendship. You wonder if he has told the truth. But let's deal in facts and not speculation and move on to Bill
[13:29]Gates and Elon Musk, two of the world's wealthiest men. We've seen their names connected to Jeffrey Epstein in prior document releases, but John, take us
[13:39]through what do we know about Bill Gates and Elon Musk's appearance in the Epstein files? >> Well, let's start with Musk, currently
[13:48]the richest person in the world. Uh so you know Musk is interesting because you'll recall uh gosh was it just a couple months ago when Musk split from
[13:58]Trump that uh you know Musk issued that uh scorching tweet that you know Trump doesn't want to release the Epstein files because he's in it. Uh and you
[14:06]know Musk has long uh fan the flames of you know release the Epstein documents like there is a cabal out there that needs to be uncovered. Uh and Musk has
[14:17]long positioned himself in that way. Uh what the recent documents reveal is that you know Musk felt differently uh around a decade ago when he would occasionally
[14:26]email with Epstein. Uh emails from Musk show that uh he had wanted to visit Epstein's island at the time and was looking to have a good time on Epstein's
[14:37]island. Uh there's no evidence that he ultimately did visit the island, but it does contradict what Musk has previously said, which was that he had been l that
[14:48]Epstein had tried to get him to go to his island and Musk had refused. The emails actually show the opposite of that. Um, but there's no evidence from the emails that Musk and Epstein had any
[14:58]sort of long-term relationship or that Musk was involved in any of Epstein's wrongdoing or even was aware of any of Epstein's ongoing wrongdoing or uh the
[15:08]extent of Epstein's crimes. Bill Gates is a bit of a different matter. Um, Bill Gates and Epstein did have a close relationship. Uh, the two often met and
[15:20]spoke about philanthropic issues. Of course, Bill Gates has been a huge philanthropist, giving away billions of dollars to various causes around the world. And uh Epstein during his
[15:31]rehabilitation tour post 2008 uh guilty plea really tried to style himself as a philanthropist and as somebody who cared about these weighty global issues and uh
[15:42]that ultimately served as entree for him to get on Bill Gates's radar and the two men did develop a relationship and uh you know Gates has denied all wrongdoing. Uh there was an interesting
[15:54]email in which uh Epstein emailing apparently to himself but uh uh a note essentially to Gates uh saying that you
[16:03]know Gates had uh protracted an STD from a Russian woman that he had slept with whom he met through Epstein and that Gates was surreptitiously
[16:13]uh giving antibiotics to his then wife Melinda French Gates uh in connection to that sedd. Gates has denied all of this called the patently false and absurd. Uh but what is clear is that the two men
[16:24]did have a relationship and of course uh ultimately that relationship played a part in the the ending of the marriage between Bill Gates and Melinda French Gates. They divorced a couple of years
[16:35]ago. Melinda French Gates now one of the world's wealthiest women uh large one of the largest philanthropist as well. Uh a and so you know formerly the world's richest man global renowned
[16:46]philanthropist Bill Gates has crafted this amazing reputation for himself uh ever since you know leaving Microsoft when he was known as the sort of bullying wannabe computer monopolist.
[16:58]He's really solidified his image as a global philanthropist. But his Epstein connections are tearing apart that image. Uh and he is definitely going to be continue dealing with the the
[17:09]blowback for years to come. It's interesting hearing you talk about Bill Gates, John, and I I'm wondering when we think about the ongoing fallout as it relates to him specifically, what
[17:20]do you expect? Are there legal consequences or is it more in the realm of his public image? Is he is his legacy effectively ruined because of these
[17:31]close ties to Jeffrey Epstein because of what we know has been implied about his divorce from Melinda French Gates? Will the world ever look at Bill Gates the
[17:42]same way again? >> Probably not. I mean, I think like anyone who is close with Epstein, you know, this is now part of their story.
[17:51]Uh the Epstein story will never really go away. Uh at least probably not in our lifetimes. And anyone who had a relationship with Epstein uh will be
[18:01]marked uh kind of like a scarlet letter uh in that way for the foreseeable future. As for what can Bill Gates expect, like you know, like Elon Musk, he's not somebody who's been accused of
[18:12]any sort of criminal wrongdoing. I mean, there are lots of men in Epste's orbit who've been accused of of rape and of sexual assault. Uh, and, you know, Bill Gates, as far as I'm aware, is not one of those people. So, I don't think he
[18:23]has legal repercussions that he needs to be worried about, as far as I know. But, reputationally, Epstein association is devastating. And it's been devastating to him for years
[18:35]as the slow drip drip of revelations about his ties to Epstein have been coming out over the last couple years. And uh you know this most recent release
[18:43]is just sort of a a crescendo of that. >> Another name we've seen in the release is Howard Lutnik, the current United States Secretary of Commerce, the former
[18:54]CEO of Caner Fitzgerald. I checked his real-time net worth according to Forbes is $3.3 billion as of about 45 minutes ago. But what is important to know about
[19:04]Howard Lutnik and his appearance in the Epstein files, John? >> Well, there's no evidence that, you know, Lutnik participated in any of
[19:14]Epstein's uh criminal activities. I think the extraordinary thing about Lutnik is that just within the last year or so he gave an interview in which he
[19:24]fidiously denied any sort of connection to Epstein and that he was totally creeped out by Epstein that you know he would never go and hang out with
[19:33]Epstein. Uh and what the recent files really shows is that actually uh he did have a relationship with Epstein and a and he and his wife and his children
[19:44]even spent time on Epstein's island uh in the US Virgin Islands which you know is a sort of startling thing uh to learn about somebody who just months earlier was saying that they were completely
[19:55]creeped out by Epstein and had no affiliation with Epstein. I mean, the other curious thing about uh the commerce secretary is that he was actually neighbors with Epstein in the Upper East Side in New York. And so, you
[20:07]know, the two men uh you know, live next door. Uh not that that means anything significant, but you know, the two were in each other's orbit. Two, you know,
[20:16]Wall Street guys uh who ran in similar circles. Uh and so, you know, of course, the two knew each other. And I think, you know, what Howard Lutnik's uh, you
[20:27]know, big sin here seems to have been was just fabricating an untruth about his relationship with Epstein because the files have exposed that. Uh, and now
[20:36]he's having to account for that and uh, the public is taking him to task for it and rightly so. >> Continuing on, billionaires who have been found in these files, Richard
[20:46]Branson, current net worth $2.8 8 billion according to Forb's real-time net worth tracker. How imshed in
[20:55]Epstein's world was Richard Branson? >> You know, it's not clear that they were super close, but uh you know, it does seem that the two did have a friendship
[21:05]and a relationship. Uh Branson uh sort of infamously said in an email to Epstein uh after the two had seen each other that he would love to see Epstein
[21:15]again as long as you bring your herum. Uh Branson also uh asked Epstein for his public relations thoughts uh on on Bill
[21:25]Gates actually and you know the sort of whether Gates could have a public association with Epstein after you know Epste had already pleaded guilty um for charges of soliciting prostitution and
[21:37]procuring a minor. Uh, and you know, to quote uh, Branson here, he said, "I think if Bill Gates was willing to say that you've been a brilliant adviser to him, that you slipped up many years ago by sleeping with a 17 and a
[21:48]half-year-old woman and were punished for it, that you've more than learned your lesson and have done nothing that's against the law since." And yes, as a single man, you seem to have a pension for women. Uh, so it's clear that, you
[21:58]know, Branson uh, and Epstein had a relationship and that Branson was aware uh, at least of Epstein's uh, sexual proclivities. uh at least in terms of
[22:09]him, you know, seeking out lots and lots of women. Uh but again, uh Richard Branson has not uh been accused of any wrongdoing uh in connection with Epstein, and he has, you know, denied any wrongdoing.
[22:21]>> He has denied wrongdoing. Let's move out west. It's not just Wall Street financiers and CEOs that have ties to Jeffrey Epstein. Sergey Brin, Google
[22:33]co-founder. Reed Hoffman, billionaire co-founder of LinkedIn. Both names have appeared in these files. What has stood out to you, John, about what we've seen
[22:43]from Sergey Brin and Reed Hoffman here? >> Yeah. So, let's start with Brin, uh, co-founder of Google, obviously one of the wealthiest men in the world. Uh, what stood out to me was, uh, a picture
[22:54]of Brin in an undated photo uh, that appears to show him at Epstein's private island. Uh and the photo includes women whose faces have been redacted. Uh an
[23:04]Epstein victim uh has also claimed in court uh that she met Brin and his then fian fiance anjiki uh founder co-founder of 23 and me at Epstein's island. So it
[23:15]does seem that Brin had visited Epstein's island which you know is not necessarily uh does not necessarily indicate involvement in any wrongdoing. We should note uh but he and Epstein did have a
[23:26]relationship. There are also emails from 2003 uh in which uh Epste and Brinn discuss a dinner at Epstein's New York mansion um and that he was in touch with
[23:36]Gla Maxwell as well. Uh it doesn't seem that Brinn was, you know, had a deep relationship with Epstein. Uh not like somebody like Leon Black or Donald Trump
[23:46]or Les Wexner. uh but he was another tech finance billionaire who had fallen into uh Epstein's world or who had allowed himself to have a relationship
[23:56]with Epstein. Uh Reed Hoffman, sort of a similar camp here. Uh co-founder of LinkedIn, he previously admitted that, you know, he had ties to Epstein. Uh and
[24:06]so new emails show that Reed Hoffman had visited several of Epstein's properties, including Epstein's island. Hoffman had participated in a fundraising trip to
[24:15]Epstein's Island in 2014 uh with MIT uh whose media lab of course depended heavily uh on Epstein's uh donations. Uh
[24:25]and so this is just sort of confirmation of sort of what was already out there that you know Reed Hoffman and Epstein had uh you know a relationship and that the two were in touch a lot. And I
[24:37]think, you know what's interesting about a lot of these guys, including Hoffman, is that this relationship either began or grew after Epstein
[24:46]pleaded guilty to two felony counts of procuring a minor and of soliciting prostitution. I mean, he was a known and registered sex offender. Uh, and so it
[24:57]does raise some bigger questions about why all of these powerful men were okay with being friendly with or being friends with a convicted sex offender.
[25:08]It's not the type of person that you would want to be friends with uh if you had good judgment. And so it raises some bigger questions, I think, about money, power. It's interesting, John, as I have followed some of the online commentary
[25:20]about this just from regular folks who've been following the news, some of the reactions I've seen have been hyperbolic, but it's been to the effect of it feels like every industry, every
[25:31]titan of every industry has associations with and to Jeffrey Epstein. And is there any sector of American business that's not affected by this? And again,
[25:42]I say hyperbole because I'm sure there are some, but we've been talking about Silicon Valley, we've been talking about Wall Street, and then there are some NFL names. Uh, can you talk about Robert
[25:53]Craft? >> Yeah, so Robert Craft, owner of the New England Patriots, he was not somebody who was on my radar uh for having an Epstein connection. I don't think he was
[26:04]on many people's radar. What was curious uh was to see that Epstein was emailing uh with one of Robert Craft's lawyers
[26:13]after he was arrested in 2019. Uh and I mean that's interesting since Craft had his own sort of uh prostitution scandal years ago. Uh it's not clear what Epste
[26:24]and Craft's relationship was, although Epste did say uh in one of his emails to Craft's lawyers that you need to know about a past issue with Craft that you that may come to light. Uh, Craft has
[26:35]denied all wrongdoing. It's not clear what Epstein was talking about. Uh, he might have just been making stuff up. He was a serial liar. Uh, so we have to acknowledge that possibility. Uh, and then I think another interesting NFL
[26:46]name is uh, Steve Tish. This is the chairman and executive vice president of the New York Giants. Uh, Epstein and Tish uh, discussed women uh, in these
[26:56]emails uh, during the 2010s. Uh, and it seemed according to the emails that uh, Epste was sort of helping set up dates uh, for Tish. Uh, and and so, you know,
[27:07]Tish has, you know, said he regrets his relationship uh, with Epstein and that, you know, they exchanged emails about adult women and discussed other things and that, you know, Tish never went to his island. You know, I think that's
[27:19]really interesting. Uh it's something that people who did not go to Epstein's island but have an association with Epstein are uh always inclined to say I didn't go to his island. Well, people
[27:29]went to his island who maybe didn't have any involvement uh with women that Epstein was procuring uh as part of his sex trafficking ring, right? I mean, are
[27:40]you telling me that Anne Wjiki, because she tagged along with Sergey Brin on a trip to the island once had more or less involvement uh or had more involvement with Epstein than Steve Tish who was
[27:51]talking about women with Epstein in the 2010s when Epstein was already a convicted sex offender. Uh, so I think it is interesting from a public relations perspective to see, you know, people like Steve Tish after being
[28:02]essentially, you know, caught emailing about women with Epstein when Epstein was already convicted sex offender say, "I never went to his island." Um, but no, you're right. I mean, broader point is that, you know, NFL owners, many of
[28:14]them billionaires, uh, Robert Craft and Steve Tish, you know, are two who, you know, had a relationship with Epstein. Uh, but again, this isn't terribly surprising because we know Epstein was a serial networker. We know he was a con
[28:26]man and a brilliant uh deviser of relationships with other men. Uh and that he could really manipulate people into having a relationship with him. Uh
[28:35]so I'm not surprised personally. >> We have Casey Wasserman, the chair of the Los Angeles Olympic Organizing Committee and also founder of a talent
[28:45]agency. We saw just within the past week or so Chapel Rowan announced that she was going to leave that talent agency.
[28:53]She didn't specifically mention Epstein, but her statement included a comment about morals. And then across the ocean
[29:03]in Dubai, we have Sultan Ahmed bin Sul Sullam. I hope I pronounced that correctly. He resigned from his position
[29:13]as CEO of trade and logistics company DP World just within the past week. Can you talk about these two cases, John? Because these feel like two of the more
[29:23]prominent resignations and actual consequences to people's jobs that we've seen. >> Yeah, let's start with Werman. Uh so
[29:34]Wasserman is facing uh consequences already. Uh he's selling his talent agency. It was been reported this past week. So, uh, you know, with the likes
[29:44]of Chapel Ron leaving his agency, uh, they've essentially forced Wasserman to put that put his agency up for sale. So, this has been an enormous consequence for Wasserman. Uh, what's interesting
[29:55]from what I've seen is that Wasserman was sort of exchanging flirty emails with Gain Maxwell in 2003. Uh, this is interesting for a couple reasons. uh one
[30:06]because it was during the time when Epstein was running his child sex trafficking network in Miami and Florida uh in Florida and New York, excuse me. And so this was a period before he had
[30:17]pleaded guilty. Uh so it does sort of beg questions about what was the nature of Wasserman's relationship with Gain Maxwell who was facilitating uh Jeffrey Epstein's child sex trafficking network.
[30:29]Why why did he have a relationship with her? What was his relationship with Epstein? Did that relationship persist in the 2010s? Uh I'm actually not sure. I haven't been following Watserman
[30:38]closely. I think uh the the Dubai guy though uh is quite interesting. Um so the the case of Sultan Ahmed bin Sleman uh is actually really interesting. Uh he
[30:50]was CEO of a major trade-in logistics company called DP World. uh he was forced to resign uh from that position after the release of Epstein files shed light on the extremely close
[31:01]relationship between Slayman and Epstein. Uh the files include numerous exchanges uh which suggests that Slayman visited Epstein's private island. The
[31:11]two were discussing women together. They conversed repeatedly uh up until 2019 when Epste was arrested. And I think most infamously uh the the Sultan as
[31:22]he's often referred to uh was uh involved in an email uh between himself and Epstein uh in which Epstein said to
[31:32]the Sultan that he loved the torture video. So uh you know it's not clear what the torture video is, but it's an extremely disturbing revelation and uh I
[31:43]think it's no surprise that he's forced to step down from this uh position. This was an extremely powerful Emirati businessman. Uh DP World is responsible
[31:52]for something like 10% of uh Dubai's GDP. Uh so for him to have to step down is is pretty startling. We've covered a lot of ground across
[32:04]billionaires and businessmen, but before I let you go, I think we have to talk about two people in the world of politics and policy. US President Donald
[32:14]Trump and the former Prince Andrew. Let's start with the latter just because UK authorities did arrest the former Prince Andrew just this week. US
[32:24]Congressman Roana says that Andrew's ties to Epstein could bring down the UK monarchy. That sounds extreme, but
[32:34]what's your sense of Andrew's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and what it means for the British monarchy? Well, Andrew, Prince Andrew, former
[32:45]Prince Andrew was one of, he's been stripped of his titles, of course, was one of Epstein's close friends in the 2000s and 2010s. And, uh, you know,
[32:56]Andrew has been accused uh, uh, by the late Virginia Dufrey, a survivor of Epstein's uh, sex trafficking network of children. She has publicly accused
[33:07]Andrew of uh raping her on several occasions uh when she was under uh was part of Epstein's criminal enterprise. Uh and they ultimately settled uh Mu
[33:18]Frey and uh the former prince did reach an outofc court settlement uh the terms of which have not been disclosed. Um so you know Andrew is not somebody who was
[33:29]peripheral to Epstein's orbit. He is somebody who is you deeply inshed in the Epstein world and this has been a slow
[33:38]drip drip of uh leaks essentially. You know the photo of him of Andrew and Juy first came out gosh I think it was over a decade ago but people weren't following the Epstein story then. It was
[33:49]really Julie Brown's 2018 reporting in the Miami Herald which blew this all back out into the open and you know resulted in the uh US Department of
[33:59]Justice ultimately arresting uh Epstein in 2019. Uh and everything has snowballed from there. So there's no s I don't think anything in the latest batch of emails about Andrew is that
[34:10]surprising in so far as it pertains to his uh relationship with women in Jeffrey Epstein's orbit uh uh who are you know part of his sex trafficking uh
[34:20]criminal enterprise. But what's quite interesting uh are revelations that Prince Andrew was also sharing sensitive government information in his role uh
[34:32]with the UK uh with Epstein uh and that's why he was arrested and is being investigated by the UK. Uh so as for you know whether it brings down the monarchy
[34:42]I'm I'm not a a royal follower. I'm not really one to say, but uh it certainly, you know, raises more and more questions
[34:50]about the legitimacy of the taxpayer funded lares that members of the monarchy live off of. I mean, this is
[35:00]somebody in Andrew who was, you know, able to live a a life of luxury but also alleged criminality uh at the expense of the British taxpayer. Uh, so it raises
[35:12]huge questions about the monarchy. Uh, and then >> yeah, the fallout there is something that we'll be following. I I think we're only just beginning to see it if I had to predict benign predicts him, but
[35:23]nonetheless. >> Indeed. And then you mentioned uh what was it? Donald Trump. >> I I do think we would be remiss not to
[35:33]mention the president. Earlier in this conversation, you did say that Donald Trump had a pre had a friendship with Jeffrey Epstein that appeared to have ended at a certain point of time, but
[35:42]his name does appear quite frequently uh in these in these files. What is important to know about the ties between the US president and the late Jeffrey
[35:53]Epstein. >> What's important to know is that the two were extremely close friends for a number of years in the 1990s and early 2000s. I think perhaps one of the most
[36:05]interesting revelations about Trump from this latest batch of documents is that, and this was found by the Miami Herald reporter, Julie Brown, that in 2006,
[36:14]Donald Trump actually spoke with the Palm Beach police chief who was investigating Epstein's sex crimes. And this is according to notes from that
[36:26]call. Trump told the police chief that everybody knew that Epstein was doing something horrid. and he even identified Gla Maxwell as somebody who was involved
[36:34]and who was evil. This is interesting and uh super important because one, it shows that Trump knew what was going on
[36:45]about uh Epstein and his sex trafficking network at the time that Trump had an idea of what was going on there. But also, it shows that Trump has lied uh
[36:56]subsequently about his uh supposed lack of knowledge of Epstein's crimes. He said publicly that he had no idea what Epstein was getting up to. Uh and that
[37:06]he didn't know. Uh so it shows that those were not true statements from the president. Uh what's curious though uh really is what's not in the files with Trump. I
[37:18]mean, a lot of people suspect that large portions of the Epstein files that involve Trump have been, you know, redacted or not released. And so, this
[37:29]is going to be potentially a years'sl long effort to get fully unredacted documents. And by unredacted, I mean documents that, you know, still keep redactions of victims whose uh whose
[37:41]identities must be concealed. According to the law, the Epstein files transparency act, it's un it's u unlawful for their names to be disclosed. Of course, the Justice Department completely botched that and
[37:52]released dozens of women's names uh that were later redacted. Uh but anyways, uh but no, there there are big questions about what other documents testify to the relationship between
[38:04]Epstein and Trump that are part of the Epstein files that have been withheld uh in violation of the law. So, it's going to be a year'slong slog.
[38:14]>> A year'sl long slog. So, John, that leads me to my final question for you, which is what is next for you as a reporter? What will you be asking your sources? What will you be looking for in the coming days, weeks, and months when
[38:26]it comes to this story? I think there are more questions to be answered about how Jeffrey Epstein was
[38:34]able to revive his reputation as well as his business prospects in the period of 2009 through his arrest in 2019. How was
[38:46]a convicted sex offender able to procure the business of a private equity tycoon like Leon Black? What was the nature of Jeffrey Epstein's sex
[38:58]trafficking network during this period? We know that he was recruiting women from Europe, women from Russia and Ukraine. What was the nature of that operation? Who was involved? Who were
[39:09]beneficiaries of that network? Uh and then I think you know the broader questions are about how institutions continue to respond to the fallout. A
[39:20]lot of the folks we've talked about are men of extraordinary power and wealth who sit on boards of museums and of
[39:29]foundations and whose capital is very powerful. How do we as a society
[39:37]respond to this extraordinary output of revelations? Uh it's going to be unfolding as I said for years to come.
[39:47]John Hyatt, reporter, staff writer at Forbes. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing all of this information. For folks who want to read his story on Leon Black, find his author page on
[39:57]Forbes.com. John, thank you so much for being here. >> Thank you so much, Maggie. I really appreciate it.