[0:01][Music] Hello and welcome to the world this week
[0:12]with me Gavin Lee breaking down assessing the biggest global stories of the past seven days with context clarity every week with a different panel of distinguished world affairs journalist. Our podcast version selected as one of the world's best 25 podcasts and current
[0:24]affairs for 2025. We were in the top 100, but this year top 25. Thank you for watching and listening. And it's been a critical week in Ukraine which started with President Zalinski on maneuvers in
[0:34]Europe. He's been shoring up support as Ukraine enters its fourth winter of war. All the while Russian and American officials reportedly maneuvering too on a secret 28-point peace plan that includes Ukraine seeding control of the
[0:46]Donbass, an area roughly the size of Croatia that includes slimming down its military. There's been push back from European allies. The French foreign minister said it amounts to capitulation. And while the country
[0:57]forces uh in the meantime, it faces rolling back out blackouts and constant aerial assaults, a corruption scandal at the heart of the state-run energy firm, risking unseating the government. Two
[1:07]opposition parties now calling for a vote of no confidence. The leader of the Hollos party, Kira Rudik, set out her position to me on Sunday. >> We think there should be a vote of no
[1:18]confidence to the government in total. Uh Ukrainian people obviously want um to see some justice. >> It's been a week that's seen a defining
[1:29]moment in President Trump's second term. A MAGA rebellion defying their leader, choosing their interests over his in forcing the vote for the release of all government and FBI files and the investigation into Jeffrey Epstein
[1:40]overwhelmingly pushed through. An extraordinary case which has seen constant shape-shifting in the president's position. Explicit promises to declassify if reelected. A Democrat hoax once back in office. Now he's
[1:50]signed the vote into law. He's describing it as a major step towards transparency. Quote, "Something I've fought for since day one, although he appeared snappy this week with several reporters asking about the Epstein case,
[2:01]telling one, quiet piggy. >> If there's nothing incriminating in the files, why not piggy?" >> Mr. President, why wait for Congress to
[2:13]release the Epstein files? Why not just do it now? >> You know, it's not the question that I mind. It's your attitude. I think you are a terrible reporter. >> It's been a week where Britain announced
[2:24]a massive shakeup to its asylum system. Home Secretary Shabban Mammud declared it as her moral mission against illegal immigration, she said, is tearing the UK apart. A copy and paste of the Danish
[2:35]model, it seems, where asylum claims have significantly reduced, refugee status becoming temporary instead of permanent and guaranteed housing support and weekly pay will end aimed at reducing the pull factors. But the
[2:46]Labour Party faced a fight to get the proposal through parliament from within several backbenches describing it as performative cruelty to appeal to the hard right voter. Not the case, says Shabban Mammud, whose speech had to be
[2:56]bleaked for profanity in parliament. >> I wish it were possible to say that there isn't a problem here, that there's nothing to see and that it is all in fact just extremist right-wing talking
[3:07]points, but this system is broken. And it's also been a week where the military regime in Marley's dismissed reports that the capital Bamako could fall in the face of a jihadist threat while relations between Tokyo and Beijing have
[3:18]soured dramatically since Japan's new prime minister Sani Takahichi suggested a Chinese attack on Taiwan could prompt a Japanese military response. Q diplomatic insult threats amplified
[3:29]nationalist sentiments on both sides. Hopefully tonight peaceful relations not too many insults in the studio but you never know. Let's meet the panel tonight. First we start with Richard Worley. Good evening, Europe
[3:40]correspondent for Switzerland's most widely read newspaper, Blit. Good evening to you, Richard. Author two of a new book, Set America that hates us. Pleasure to have you with
[3:50]us, Richard. Let's uh get a sense of >> your new book. And what do we learn? >> You learn about what the American MAGA really think about Europe. As you know,
[4:01]I was uh for quite a long time in the US last year covering the campaign trail of Donald Trump and I returned this year with one goal trying to understand what
[4:11]is behind the MAGA movement and what do these people think those who vote for Donald Trump think about Europe and the reason why I decided to write the book and I realized that now Europe is
[4:22]becoming the target. We Europeans are targeted for Donald Trump for JD events. We are seen as weak, no value, no defense of western values. So they want
[4:32]us to be on their side. They want us to be there. Not their allies, but kind of uh their I would say hostage. >> And this is no armchair book of somebody writing from a distance. You've been
[4:43]there. When you talk about meeting the story, you have to get to the story. You've been inside. At one point, I remember JD Vance's old house. >> True. I want to mention something else to you because a note for those watching the world this week last week we joked
[4:54]that Nicola Sakoi had come out of prison was going to release his Christmas memoirs this Christmas. It was a joke turns out he has. So this is uh the prisoners diary ljunaldon prisonier to
[5:06]release uh December the 10th. He hasn't missed a beat there has he? Well, I think the justice system in France has made somebody very happy. The publisher of Nicolas Sarcoi because clearly the
[5:17]journal prisonier, the prisoner's diary is it may be a bestseller for Christmas. Uh let us remind that Sarosi spent only three weeks in jail and in very specific
[5:28]condition. He was not at all a normal inmate. He was in a single cell. He had two police officers by his side. He did not meet any other prisoners during his
[5:38]stay in the prison lante in Paris. But nevertheless, he find enough information to write a book. I'm not sure the judge and I'm not sure the justice system will appreciate. Keep in mind that he's
[5:49]having these appeal uh to be uh to take place in around March somewhat and he may he may have to go to jail if he's condemned again. >> We will find out too whether it's
[6:01]ghostritten. Yours certainly wasn't. Richard, great to have you with us. Let's also bring in Laura Cayle, defense correspondent for Politico Europe. Great to see you tonight, Laura too. You've been looking at something very interesting this week. This is the
[6:12]Russian threat to France, denied by the Kremlin, but it's the top military general. This is Faben Mandon who's warned to prepare. His words of warning
[6:21]have ruffled feathers. >> Yes, he did. uh he spoke in front of the assembly of mayors, the yearly meeting of mayors and he he had quite strong
[6:33]words but uh his speech was much longer than the few tidbits that kind of made the round of of media and controversy. So basically the gist of the message was
[6:43]that Russia is a threat to Europe as a whole and that France should be resilient because resilience is what makes you win wars basically. But he
[6:53]said if we're not ready to lose our children then we are at risk. So the thing is people understood it as children in the way of kids or the youth
[7:04]or the next generation. But when military people talk about children it actually means the armed forces soldiers. So he was saying which is
[7:14]still sad but he was saying we must be ready for our soldiers to die in the front not regular civilians. He wasn't saying that everyone would be called to the front. So there was a bit of a
[7:25]misunderstanding here about what he said. >> It's been picked up. There's a lot of hot water from politicians on the left and the extreme right as well that this is alarmist. But it's not too dissimilar a few months ago from Mark Rut saying
[7:36]unless you sort yourselves out, you'll all be learning Russian soon. >> Yes, but I guess French politician don't listen to R as much as they listen to French generals. But it is true that the
[7:47]message was particularly controversial here in France because we are far away from Russia. We're not a front frontline state and people do not feel an immediate threat if the same speech was
[7:58]was given in Sweden or Estonia like no one would budge and they are already readying for war and for resilience and for civilian also resilience.
[8:09]>> It is really interesting. It takes us nicely to our next guest across the channel to London. Bring in Francis Durnley, executive editor of audio the telegraph, co-host of the brilliant podcast Ukraine the latest with Dom
[8:20]Nichols. Welcome back to the world this week, Francis. It is great to have you and I should say the most downloaded podcast in the Telegraph's history. Podcast of the year two at the London Press Club last month. Welld deserved.
[8:31]And now you're doing live events with audiences. Francis, before I ask you about it, let's take a look. >> This war and the agony of its prolonging is what
[8:42]failed deterrence looks like. >> The people in this room are the target for war in the 21st century. what comes in their phone, the turning off of their power, the turning off of their fuel and
[8:53]food. >> With what Laura was just talking about there, whether Europe's prepared, let me ask you, Francis, what is the most frequently asked question you've been getting by these audiences?
[9:05]>> Oh, well, thank you very much for having me again, Gavin. Um, I think what what's going to happen next is the most common question that we get asked. And I would say that this week it's a question on my
[9:16]lips too because one can't say that history doesn't have a morbid sense of humor. On the very day that it is freedom day in Ukraine and it is the
[9:28]anniversary of the beginning of the Nuremberg trials. We see extraordinary events this week with President Trump's
[9:38]team and the Russians striking a deal that or seeking to do so without the say of Europe and without the say of the Ukrainians
[9:48]that would see the end of Ukrainian sovereignty fundamentally and the defenistration of the legal architecture brought about by the end of the second
[9:59]world war. And if I had been asked what you think is going to happen even six months ago that we would be presented with this at this stage three and a half
[10:09]years into the bloodiest war on European soil. I'm not sure I would have believed you. It is an extraord extraordinarily historic period and I would say a tragic
[10:20]and exceedingly dangerous one. >> The most dangerous moment since the war began and also not just this early this week, Francis, I'm guessing at the start of the day we're in a completely different position. Now we have this
[10:30]Thursday deadline and you ceue up what we're going to talk about beautifully in a moment. Brilliant to have your insight with us tonight Francis. Thank you. Let's cross to Washington DC. Let's bring in and welcome Abigail Houseona, the US-based foreign affairs
[10:41]correspondent at the FT, the Financial Times specialist on US relations with Africa and the Middle East. Fantastic to have you with us too, Abigail. Tell us about your week in Washington. The how it started, how's it going question.
[10:52]What caught you by surprise too if if anything can nowadays. >> Right. If anything, Ken is the key question. Uh, this was a busy week in
[11:04]Washington. The highlight here before Trump uh surprised everyone with Ukraine uh was the visit by the Saudi Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman to the White
[11:15]House for uh a two-day visit. Trump rolled out the red carpet. Uh a lavish black tide dinner. Um they announced a
[11:26]series of deals. uh the details of which for the most part are are still actually pretty vague. Uh but the probably most surprising part uh was were these
[11:37]exchanges that we saw this exchange we saw in the Oval Office uh when Trump was asked about Jamal Kashogji, the Saudi
[11:47]journalist uh who was murdered in a Saudi consulate in Istanbul um and whom the CIA believe uh was was murdered at
[11:58]the request of or at the approval of the crown prince himself. And Trump responded by lashing out at the journalist. Uh he accused her of
[12:09]embarrassing his guest. Uh and then he also had some harsh words for Kashoji. Um and and remember the CIA made these this this killing occurred during
[12:19]Trump's first term in office and the CIA made these findings then as well. But Trump said, you know, uh that NBS knew nothing about it. Um and that Kashoji,
[12:31]uh wasn't a very well-liked guy. >> Very interesting. Things happen, I think, was a quote as well, wasn't it? I'm very looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Also, it's bizarre conversation that that seems to have
[12:41]kickstarted peace attempts in Sudan because of the conversation between those two men. I want to get the panel's thoughts on that as well coming up. Thank you. Great to have you with us, Abigail. Okay, let's begin. The Lisa Palace, Paris, 1:00 Monday afternoon.
[12:53]President Zilinsky in the middle of a short European tour, a deal agreed in principle producing a letter of intent to acquire 100 Rafal fighter jets over 10 years. The crown jewel of French
[13:02]aviation and off limits for Kev up until now. President Mron was asked, "Is this not an escalation making France a party to the war?
[13:12]>> These are defense capabilities um to defend Ukrainian skies. This complements our anti-missile systems and these are relevant and necessary." Well, after stopping in Athens and Madrid for deals
[13:23]on Greek provision of gas and Spanish financing of almost a billion euros, the signal from European partners was stepping up against the backdrop of US signaling fatigue and disengagement. Good news at a bad time for President
[13:34]Zalinski under more pressure than at any point since the start of the full-scale Russian offensive as Francis was talking about a moment ago. Now in its fourth winter as his troops defend against Russian forces and drones which are
[13:45]gnoring away at the front lines in the Donbass. And now a corruption scandal eating away at his government's credibility. The issue is a hund00 million embezzlement scheme, a laundromat operation, the state's own
[13:56]operator of the country's nuclear power plants, war critical energy infrastructure implicating some of the president's inner circle, including the alleged mastermind, a close friend, a
[14:06]former associate who's now scared, fled abroad. Calls for a vote of confidence against the government are increasing. The economist running this headline this week saying outrage is justified.
[14:16]Letting Vladimir Putin win would be disastrous. All the while, it's reported, well, we now know that US officials uh reportedly hammering out with Russian officials a secretive joint
[14:27]peace plan unveiled to Ukraine by the US on Thursday. Russia today says it had nothing to do with it, though it agrees to it, says Mr. Putin, the president. 28 points to end the war, including Keefe
[14:37]letting go of Donbass, giving Russia uh away to Russia and losing a third of its military force. And there we will start. Francis, President Zilinski presenting
[14:47]this tonight as a binary choice, risk losing a key partner or betraying his country. >> Well, it remains to be seen whether that
[14:57]is the case. We've seen of course threats deals offered by President Trump before and they haven't come to pass. Indeed, it seems a sort of staple of his
[15:07]premiership really. And yet, I do think this is a very, very serious and precarious moment for the Ukrainians. And I think President Zilinsky is right, as he did articulate in that speech to
[15:18]the nation, that this is one of the most dangerous moments that the country has faced because of European weakness. I would argue there has been a
[15:30]overdependence on the Americans for European and Ukrainian security not just uh in the last three and a half years but indeed for decades and we should
[15:41]have done much more after the annexation of Crimea in 2014. We did not. And as a consequence of that, the Americans still have considerable leverage with regard to the weapons that they provide, the intelligence that they provide, not only
[15:53]to the Ukrainians but to us. And that is why unfortunately despite this peace plan which as you say um is horrific for the Ukrainians and for anybody who
[16:03]believes that there is should be a just end to this war. European leaders feel obliged to not say what they want to say which is that this is an outrage and it's dangerous for the Ukrainians and it's dangerous for them and that is
[16:15]because they are overly dependent and overextended when it comes to the Americans. Now, one has to hope that they do have a long-term strategy and that they are simply preparing for the worst case scenarios and trying to buy
[16:27]time by not criticizing President Trump's actions, including this one. And yet, it's hard to be optimistic when we have seen again and again and again
[16:37]European opportunities to carry out more decisive action and have chosen not to do so. So, it's a very, very worrying time, Gavin. But I would say that this
[16:47]police plan, if we can even call it that, would have massive ramifications not only for Ukrainian security and sovereignty, but for ours in Europe. It
[16:57]would see the end of an independent country in the center of Europe, Europe's largest country in the form of Ukraine, and there would be no allowance
[17:08]for European soldiers to be stationed there to secure it from another invasion. that I would argue alone and there are many other worse aspects of this would be extremely serious and it
[17:18]should be a non-starter as a consequence. >> Okay, you raised a couple of really extraordinary points there. I'm going to mention one of them first to Laura on the issue of Europe being frozen out on this allies some are raging as a result.
[17:29]We heard from Jeano Bah the French foreign minister saying this is capitulation a peace deal like this perhaps more diplomatic on Ursuland saying essentially that nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine. What's your
[17:41]take? And it shows again that since Trump came to power, Europe is completely sidelined from from negotiations, if we can call it that, between the US and the Russians. It's not the first time a few month a few
[17:53]months ago, there are also kind of hopes of a peace deal between, but it was also negotiated without the Europeans. But it's true that the Europeans, they do see this as capitulation. And that's
[18:04]also important for Ukraine to have the backing of Europeans because if France and the UK and Germany was like, "Oh, this is fine. We can go with it." that would be terrible for for Zalinski and
[18:14]Zilinski he talked today with Germany's merch Francis Makon the UK starmer so they are trying to kind of um engage with him and the thing that is the most
[18:25]unacceptable for European countries and they have been saying this this for a long time is the disarmament of sorts of Ukraine they have said for even before
[18:36]Trump was was in power like this is a a big red line because if Ukraine no longer longer has the means to military defend itself first of all that means that Ukraine can be like fully invaded
[18:47]and Europeans feel that if Ukraine falls then the next step is Europe >> listening to Laura it's a really good point I'm minded and what Francis said a moment ago Russia denying that it's had
[18:58]any knowledge of this Mr. Putin president talking tonight saying that they agree that Ukraine should accept this deal I'm thinking about the Vagnner group when they were operating in Africa Mr. Mr. Putin knew nothing about that.
[19:09]Suddenly it's now the official Africa corps, the paramilitary there. The there the suggestions are from Axios and others that Steve Wickoff, Mr. Fixer on foreign affairs, was there with his opposite number in Miami on a number of
[19:18]nights um Kir Demitriv and this has been fleshed out and I heard from one analyst short while ago, John Loff saying that this is not negotiators. This is quite roughly uh sketched out. What's your take?
[19:30]>> Well, my take is that first of all, there is nothing surprising in that plan, so-called plan. Nothing surprising. That's what Trump wants from
[19:40]the very beginning. He Trump thinks, keep in mind the meeting of February 28 in the White House. He said repeatedly
[19:50]to Zalinski, you don't have the cards. And he when when Trump and he showed a map several time when the European leaders were in Washington, he showed a
[20:00]map. Trump wants Ukraine to get rid of the different areas that Russia wants to have and that Russia by the way has already annexed in its constitution and
[20:12]there was a vote in the Duma. So that's what Trump wants. The the real question to me now I have I have two question for which I don't have answer. Maybe Francis will have the the answer. Number one is
[20:23]is it a starter or not? If it's a starter, it's a very different. Is it the endgame for Trump or is he ready to accept a negotiation? That's my first
[20:34]question. And the second question is the political uh strength of Zelinsky at the moment. The difficulty is that not only
[20:41]Zalinski is in uh dire straits in the front line, but is in dire straits politically speaking. You were showing uh you were talking interviewing this
[20:52]political opponent. At the moment, people in Ukraine are kind of fed up or they are doubting, let's say, they are doubting the ability of Zilinski to to
[21:01]to remain a president that can fight for Ukraine. So, we have a president that has been weak on two front. How do you want him to negotiate? And do you think the Europeans are going to come up to
[21:13]his rescue completely? I have my doubts. You raised two very interesting points. Francis and I would like Abigail your point off the back of this because it refers to both of you on the issue of whether this is a start point. Francis
[21:24]first and then we'll come to you Abigail and your your take for the Trump administration as in that there's room to maneuver or this is the end point. And I guess it depends on whose take you listen to whether it's Steve Wickoff and
[21:35]Trump or whether it's Marco Rubio the Secretary of State, doesn't it? >> Indeed. Well, if we were to base this proposal uh on previous Trump proposals
[21:45]such as the minerals deal, there were various incarnations of the minerals deal before it was eventually signed by the Ukrainians that were far far worse from
[21:56]Kev's perspective than the one that was ultimately signed. So I think you can say and we've seen it of course in the Trump playbook with the uh tariffs and
[22:06]towards other countries around the world that often the first proposal is not the settled agreement. And yet I do think that this is so far from what Europe
[22:18]could accept not least the Ukrainians that I don't think it is a starter. I don't think it is a point for discussion many of those that points that frame it. And yet I do think that we should expect
[22:30]the European leaders and the Ukrainians to say yes, we want to talk about this because the thing they've got to avoid now is Trump actually cutting off weapon
[22:40]support and intelligence on Thursday, which is what he is threatening to do. So they've got to do what the Russians are very good at, which is kicking the can down the road for as long as possible to prevent the very worst case
[22:52]scenarios, I would say. But just on the point about Zalinsk's security in domestic terms, I think it's important to underscore that yes, there is anger among the Ukrainian population around
[23:03]some of the corruption issues that we've just been discussing, but they're not realistically calling for President Zilinski to be ousted. What they want to see is changes beneath him in the next
[23:14]level. Individuals like the head of his presidential office, Andre Yermach, or indeed the commander of the Ukrainian armed forces, Selski. So, if Zalinski is to ride this out, I think that he's
[23:25]going to have to feed something to the opposition or at least to the Ukrainian public to say, "I hear you." Um, but I think some of these calls that President Zilinski himself is in danger are overplayed.
[23:37]>> Abigail, President Zilinski said tonight he's spoken to Mark Rutter, Secretary General of NATO, to say what essentially are his diplomatic options. If you were in the the Kev cabinet tonight, wanted
[23:46]to make a call to the US, which member of the government would you want to talk to? Well, there are famously very few uh at
[23:57]this stage who diplomats and foreign heads of state want to talk to and that is the president himself. I imagine that would be his first call. Uh or Steve
[24:08]Wickoff and if not them then Secretary of State Marco Rubio. >> I just wonder on Steve Wickoff. There's supposed to be reportedly different opinions between him and Marco Rubio as
[24:19]to how hard ball you play Ukraine. Reportedly more sympathy from Marco Rubio to the plight of Ukraine. And I want to mention Steve Wickoff, the man at the center of this, the US Mr. Fixit on foreign affairs, credited with
[24:30]getting this peace deal in in Gaza, of course, and somebody you've been monitoring over that issue. Do you see, you know, has he got the mightest touch when it comes to to Trump on this? Look, Trump trusts uh Steve Wickoff. He
[24:46]says he trusts Marco Rubio, too. But it's true, they have very different approaches. Rubio um is a loyalist to Trump. He will do what Trump instructs
[24:55]him to do. And that is why Trump that that is why frankly I think the secretary of state has been uh in his job as long as he has uh in an administration that is of course famous
[25:06]for uh people falling out of favor certainly with Trump won uh and getting kicked to the curb. But Rubio Rubio
[25:15]traditionally is a is a more traditional uh foreign policy broker. He he believes in statesmanship. um he believes in uh
[25:25]sort of more traditional diplomacy. Wickoff uh represents Trump's more sort of businessminded approach to the world. Uh that's certainly uh what we're seeing
[25:37]with uh you know the the sort of rolling target of a of a peace plan. uh Trump and Witoff by extension appro tends to
[25:47]approach uh wars, you know, this idea of resolving different conflicts including in Ukraine, including in Gaza as a negotiation like a business negotiation.
[25:58]And so, uh you come out tough on, you know, both sides sort of irrespective of of who, uh, you know, the Europe and the United States traditionally would see
[26:09]as, you know, at fault. uh and and to sort of bully or or push both sides into a compromise uh with the aim of ending
[26:20]the war. Again, another driving thing for the president uh is this idea that he can have a list of of of wars that he has has ended and that he can pick up
[26:31]the Nobel Peace Prize at the end of next year. >> Yeah. Hence this manual kind of speeding up and giving this this deadline of Thursday to try to get this done. And Francis, talking of the Midas touch, you touched upon it a moment ago that the Ukrainian press are calling this the
[26:42]golden toilet case, the corruption case around Zilinski. And I mention it because a number of analysts say that look, he's flawed by this. It's coined the case after the literal discovery of a goldplated toilet in Teor Mitch's
[26:53]gaff, the alleged mastermind of this scandal. And there are those that say, forgive the pun, but it literally added to the pressure of what's going on. It could seat not only the the government,
[27:02]but it could unseat him as well. Very good. No, I think the um the image is terrible, right? At a time when the
[27:12]country is facing an existential crisis to have golden toilets in your house as it were of this individual close to President Sensky is horrific, not least
[27:23]when he's just fled the country. And many people speculate that he was given permission to do so. given uh uh very um speedy advice to get out of the country
[27:32]as soon as possible when it was obvious that the anti-corruption bodies investigating him uh were about to arrest him. So I think you know it is
[27:43]obviously very bad but it is also important to emphasize something here which is the fact is this is out in the open. Okay, you sometimes people may critique Ukraine for its corruption
[27:53]practices, but we have seen in this war so many initiatives that Ukraine has adopted to try to erase the Soviet legacy of corruption. And so the fact
[28:04]that we're even talking about this is indicative of the change that has undergone been undergone in Ukrainian society as a consequence of this war. The European Union is heavily involved
[28:16]in that. Britain is heavily involved in helping Ukraine enter the western fold. So the idea that all of a sudden uh this peace plan that's been put forward by
[28:25]President Trump which offers the ultimately I would say a repudiation of that whole view would be a tragedy because Ukraine actually is becoming a much more western liberal democratic
[28:37]country and if we don't want to see the end of that then we should be supporting Ukraine. And if I could just make one other comment, Gavin, something that is not being talked about anywhere near enough in my opinion in the wider media,
[28:48]and I'm pleased to be able to do so this evening, is that as part of this proposal put forward by Mr. Wickoff and the Russians, it says that anybody involved in carrying out alleged war
[29:00]crimes or corruption practices would not be eligible to be legally prosecuted. That is the end of the post-war
[29:11]architecture built and represent represented and resembled by Neuremberg. So the fact that we have seen an illegal war started with genocidal
[29:22]characteristics, tens of thousands of Ukrainian children taken away, civilians murdered in their homes night after night, and we potentially conceivably
[29:34]could see a deal signed which would ensure that Putin in any level, soldiers, generals who have participated in that crime would get away with it
[29:43]forever more. It should appall all of us because it would be the end of a world that we all believed that we lived in. And once you see the end of that world, then I would argue that in the long
[29:54]term, nobody is safe. >> And a world which is a dream right now, is it not for Russian bots having a field day with all of this? And I should say as well that gold toilet you saw is a gold toilet was sold by Sabes this
[30:05]week for 12 million. It wasn't Teor Mitch's toilet, but you get the picture as spotted by Richard Worley a moment ago. Well, it takes us a day later. Across the Atlantic, fighter jets were on the agenda again at the White House.
[30:17]The Saudi Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman, the guest of honor, the red carpet roll out, including a fly past of all the finest attack aircraft in the US in the fleet. Considered the world's
[30:26]most advanced, the F-35. Saudi Arabia wants 48 of them, but till now, Israel's had the exclusive use on them in the region, and there's been fears that if Riad gets them, its biggest trade partner, China, could access the
[30:37]technology. Well, President Trump already indicated the approval of the sale by the time he was showing NBS around the White House Garden, the colonade, lying with the faces of president's past on the wall, where they stopped at the image that represented
[30:48]his predecessor, Joe Biden. Trump replaced his face with an auto pen, referencing his long-standing claim of Biden not being aware of the things he signed. Biden, remember, was keenly aware of avoiding shaking hands with the
[30:59]Saudi prince, opting for a fist bump instead, and keeping Riyad at arms length out of the US intelligence assessment alleged the de facto monik was culpable in the murder of the Washington Post journalist Jamal
[31:10]Kashoji, who was tortured and dismembered with a bone saw in the Saudi embassy in Turkey in 2022. "The past is a different country. They do things differently there," said LP Hotley. Trump, after just agreeing a
[31:21]multi-billion dollar deal with Saudi Arabia in exchange for defense technology and a tie-in on AI chips and data centers, put it like this when the issue was raised.
[31:31]>> As far as this gentleman is concerned, he's done a phenomenal job. You're mentioning somebody that was extremely controversial. A lot of people didn't like that gentleman that you're talking about. Whether you like him or didn't
[31:43]like him, things happened, but he knew nothing about it. And we can leave it at that. You don't have to embarrass our guest. Abigail, this is real politic in action here, isn't it? Regarding the
[31:53]brutal murders you touched upon a moment ago, things happened. He said >> that's right. Uh it was a remarkable
[32:03]uh sort of pivot from from what was accepted information uh in Washington about that murder and what we know about it.
[32:14]>> Henry Kissinger said this uh Richard in his memoirs. He said, "The task of a statesmanship is to bring ideas into the world uh but ideals without basis in reality on mere slogans. Essentially,
[32:26]you have to deal with the world you're in, not as you wish." What's your take? Well, I think probably the same quote by Donald Trump be would would be uh take
[32:38]uh take the world depending on the amount of dollar of US dollar uh the leaders is offering you because you cannot separate the attitude of Donald Trump to the amount of investment that
[32:49]Muhammad bin Salman is promising in the US and you cannot dissociate that from the fact that Trump really wants the Saudi Arabia to be in the Abraacore the Abraham agreement.
[33:01]So, so Trump is ready to do anything to convince Muhammad bin Salman that they are friends that the US will protect Saudi Arabia and the US needs Saudi
[33:11]Arabia. So, we we are looking what we are looking at here is not simply a deal between two head of states. Uh I would not go further as said it's a kind of
[33:22]mafia deal, but you have a godfather Donald Trump who has a project for Gaza. He has a project for the Middle East. He has a project for his own country and he
[33:32]wants Muhammad bin Salman to finance that in one way or another. So, so that's what we are seeing at the moment. Is this real world? Well, I contest
[33:41]that. I disagree. Real world could could be different. You could certainly not say upfront to Muhammad bin Salman, you are a murderer. That would be beyond the diplomatic tradition. But you could at
[33:53]least not treat the journalist like he treat the journalist. So, so it's a disgrace. It's a political disgrace. It's a disgrace to do that in the White
[34:03]House. And that's no surprise why I wrote a book called This America That Hates Us. Trump hates the way we see the world. And luckily, we don't see the world like him.
[34:14]>> A pressing point, Laura, it's also worth saying that kind of the pull factor for Trump as well is his F-35s. And you've got Saudi Arabia asking for it for a long time. looks like there might be a
[34:24]breakthrough at least in in in word only. There's a handful of EU NATO countries that can use them. Plus Canada, plus Israel and Turkey wants them too. >> So yes, that would be a big deal if
[34:35]Saudi Arabia does get them. But as you were saying, for now it's words only. So it will take a lot of time. There are already like delivery delays for customers who have already paid for them. So I don't think it's tomorrow
[34:47]that we will see like F-35 fighter jets flying in Saudi skies. But it's true that if they do arrive in Saudi Arabia like that will rebalance a bit the
[34:57]military landscape in the Middle East because uh the US and and Israel they had kind of a deal that that they would sell weapons and Israel would retain what they call military edge. So for
[35:08]sure that's not news that is welcome in in Israel and that would rebalance a bit and as you were mentioning earlier as well there is a fear that Saudi Arabia
[35:18]having a deal defense deal with China then China could come and look at the aircraft and kind of have a closer look in the same way that when France sold Rafal fighter jets to Serbia there was
[35:30]also this fear since Serbia is close to Russia and China that they could come and look at the technology but more than the F-35s The United States also decided to make Saudi Arabia what is called a
[35:41]major non-NATO ally and that is even of a bigger deal I think because it's kind of a long-term commitment that comes with a lot of perks that are that could
[35:52]materialize earlier than actual deliveries of F-35s. >> That is a very interesting point. Well, meanwhile, about half an hour's walk from the president and the prince at the White House in the lower house of
[36:04]Congress on Capitol Hill, Democrats and Republicans were voting for the release of the Epstein files, all the records held on the late convicted sex offender, and they voted overwhelmingly for it, 40 427 to1. It sped through the Senate by
[36:16]the afternoon. By the next day, President Trump signed the bill to release the files within 30 days. Laura's colleagues at Politico in Washington ran this headline. Trump signs Epstein bill that he once labored
[36:28]to kill. And it was his party, his MAGA acolytes, who wanted them released. Just days ago, Marjorie Taylor Green, the Republican congresswoman for Georgia, longtime loyal Trump ally, was called a
[36:38]traitor for pushing for the vote. Her core claim is a debunk QAnon theory that a deep state, a secret cabal of satanic pedophiles, have been running a global child sex trafficking ring and believe
[36:48]the Epstein case unlocks the truth. While standing with the victims of Epstein, she told reporters that Trump's actions were tearing MAGA apart.
[36:58]This has been one of the most destructive things to MAGA is watching
[37:07]the man that we supported early on three elections for people that stood hours slept in
[37:16]their cars to go to rallies. um have fought for truth and transparency and and to hold what we consider a corrupt government
[37:27]accountable. Watching this actually turn into a fight has ripped MAGA apart. >> Abigail, to look at the Republicans first and look at the Epstein files,
[37:38]I'll mention to Richard, but for you, is this the first sign of disscent we're seeing in the Republicans MAGA fragmenting? What's your take from where you are? No, we've seen a few glimmers of this so
[37:51]far, but this we've seen uh some Republican dissatisfaction with uh tariffs, for example, uh with the hits that individual states have gotten, you
[38:03]know, farmers, for instance, uh the auto industry, uh when lawmakers, constituents feel that they are being negatively impacted by Trump's policies.
[38:13]We've also seen uh some m murmurss of dissent uh around Gaza um around generally you know US support for other
[38:25]countries as in it's not just Europe but also this idea from some uh that the US gives too much support uh to Israel and certainly to Ukraine. Uh but the Epstein
[38:37]files are unique in that they have really highlighted this wedge in the party. You have a lot of people ordinary sort of ordinary Americans not in Washington who consider themselves part
[38:48]of the MAGA movement who have been deeply invested in finding out what are what is in these documents uh and they
[38:58]feel betrayed uh by you know the president to an extent that he hasn't uh released these uh in full and Democrats have also really seized on this as an
[39:08]opportunity. They've seized on this as an opportunity. Richard, how significance do you see this in for the case itself of Epstein and the transparency around it? >> Well, I would say it's a matter of trust
[39:20]and results. Why I'm saying that? It's a matter of trust for the voters. Do they still trust Donald Trump? And when when they see that he may had some link and
[39:31]he indeed had some link with Epstein and his if his name surface in the files that are to be released probably the trust is going to be the key word. But let's look also at the results because
[39:43]the very same voters uh they are the same person. The one who dislike Trump links with Epstein is also the one who goes to the grocery store and the
[39:53]supermarket and see the result of his economic policy. So, so what has to to be seen now is whether these MAGA voters will consider that Trump results the
[40:04]outcome of his administration are enough positive enough to compensate the misdeeds and his behavior with Epstein. That being said, so far nothing
[40:15]incriminating has surfaced as far as the Epstein files are concerned. >> And it's probably worth saying, Francis, probably battling or even dominating Ukraine for headlines in the UK is the
[40:26]face of Andrew Mountbat. And if we look at the events there, I think it's fair to say that his downfall from Royal has probably heightened the appetite uh in the US for transparency. >> Indeed. And I think also we should
[40:40]factor in here the fact that when President Trump does have these kind of domestic issues that it impacts his foreign policy. And I would wager there
[40:49]is a part of President Trump's mindset which is it would be rather helpful to distract the world at the moment and the domestic press by throwing the dead cat
[40:59]of a Ukraine peace proposal plan um at us all and then setting a deadline for Thursday. It it does scream of that kind of political opportunism. But yes, here
[41:08]in London, it's been an extraordinary few weeks um with the loss of Prince Andrew's title or formerly Prince Andrew's title. Um and him becoming a
[41:19]commoner just like you and me. Extraordinary. I don't think anybody of us would have predicted that when this scandal first broke all of those years ago. >> Speak for yourself, Francis. Uh let's go to Suetto, South Africa this weekend.
[41:31]The biggest international moment for the country since the World Cup. The biggest gathering of global leaders since the funeral of Nelson Mandela. A G20 summit. the first for an African state. The yearly meeting of the largest economic nations, those emerging too, except
[41:42]three of the leaders, notable by their absent, President Trump, she and Putin, with Trump saying it's a disgrace being held in South Africa. Abigail, this goes back to allegations of human rights abuses and alleged white genocide, say
[41:54]the White House, debunked by fact checkers and police in South Africa. What's your impression of of why the Americans are boycotting and what's behind it?
[42:05]>> Right. Well, there's a couple of themes uh here that that might be feeding this. Uh you know, one, as you as you mentioned, this White House has had a
[42:15]big issue with South Africa since Trump returned to office. A lot of that, um you know, appears to be linked to Elon Musk, uh the the tech mogul, richest man
[42:24]in the world, who was uh a close aid to Trump during his first couple of months in office. Um Musk is South African uh
[42:33]by birth, a white South African. Uh and you know, Musk has had been agitating uh about his his perception of the South
[42:44]African government's discrimination against white South Africans. And then we heard Trump start repeating this mantra and really getting uh on the wagon with this, trying to trying to
[42:55]push some sort of policy. And we saw um a big division between the South African government and Washington. Huge tensions that remain. Uh also another big factor
[43:07]in this was South Africa's uh support of course or or leadership of the case against Israel uh for war crimes in the International Criminal Court. Um,
[43:18]another thing that I think could be at play here is is again this is an administration who has a that has a very uh transactional approach to the world. It it does not Trump does not like these
[43:30]sort of traditional mechanisms uh for diplomacy and international organizations. And so I think that's also uh part of the resistance to taking part in this.
[43:41]>> It's a good point. Uh briefly Richard and Laura 30 seconds each on this. Let me ask what you're making of President Mron's Africa trip. He's at the G20s, Maitius, South Africa, Gabon, Angola for
[43:51]five days, four countries. A positive legacy push. He's got 18 months left of his term. Is it useful for him, do you think? >> I think that's a no impact African tour.
[44:02]He cannot have an impact. He's not in position anymore to have any impact. He may say whatever he wants. Emmanent Mron is weak now and especially French influence in those country except maybe
[44:14]the Mauritius islands are very low I would say very I mean it's not significant so uh I would not say he's doing geopolitical tourism but we are close to it Laura
[44:24]>> yeah he's escaping the like local and national turmoil because we might not have a budget like the two coming days are crucial in knowing if France will have a budget so definitely since the
[44:36]political crisis that he created a year and a half ago. He's been focusing a lot more on on international affairs as a boy to build his legacy. >> Thank you all of you. A brilliant panel
[44:47]tonight. A unique insight on the ground reporting and with a context that is more than necessary now than ever. Thank you Richard Burley correspondent for Blick the Swiss publication and author. Good luck with a new book as well. Thank
[44:59]you Laura K. Ali defense correspondent for Politico Europe in London. Francis, thank you. Francis Derley, executive editor for audio the telegraph, co-host of the unmissable podcast on Ukraine, the latest. Thank you, Francis. And in
[45:10]Washington, DC, thank you to Abigail Houseon, the US foreign affairs correspondent for the FT, the Financial Times. Thank you for watching. We will leave you to consider Elon Musk Guide to the Galaxy in 10 to 20 years under AI.
[45:20]Work, he says, will be optional. Money irrelevant. Nice work if you can get it. We'll see you in seven days for the world next week. a video game or something like that. Um,
[45:33]if you want to work, uh, you know, in the same way like you can you can go to the store and just buy some vegetables or you could grow vegetables in your backyard. It's much harder to grow
[45:45]vegetables in your backyard, but some people still do it because they like growing growing vegetables. Um that will be what work is like