[0:00]Faith in certain people. Yeah, I lost that because they got duped by the Democrats. The Democrats are good for nothing. They've done a terrible job. They almost destroyed our country. If I didn't get elected, all these numbers
[0:12]you're hearing about, they found $25 billion and another 25 is coming in, and hundreds of billions of dollars is pouring into our country. And we just got the biggest tax cut in history. We just got the biggest regulation cuts in history.
[0:25]There'll be no tax on tips. There'll be no tax on Social Security. There'll be no tax on overtime. There'll be no tax on so many other things. You're allowed to deduct your interest from a car payment. That's never happened before.
[0:38]You borrow interest you borrow money to buy a car. If you if the car is made in America. And by the way, factories are being built all over America. Car factories, AI factories. But you get a deduction
[0:51]on your interest. Nobody ever thought of that before. That was President Trump's moment to go blasting some of his fellow Republicans who are demanding answers in the Jeffrey Jeffrey Epstein investigation. And it comes shortly
[1:04]after he called supporters who were upset about this weaklings and said he doesn't need their support. Let's talk more about this with a terrific group of reporters here. CNN's Priscilla Alvarez, Marc Caputo of Axios,
[1:17]Tia Mitchell of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution and CNN's Aaron Blake. Mark, yes, there's so much there to react to. I think the most
[1:29]interesting thing for me, as someone who covers Trump is he reacts to these crises and a crisis that's been fueled by conspiracy theories, by adding more conspiracy theories, instead of just saying, you know, I knew Jeffrey Epstein.
[1:41]there's no credible evidence against me. Let's move on. He says this is a Jim Comey, Barack Obama, Joe Biden plot, and it's the Jeffrey Epstein hoax. And so if anyone thinks
[1:54]that the conventional way of dealing with a crisis is to not talk about things you don't want to talk to, Donald Trump is here to prove him wrong. Or is he? I mean this to me, this is such a fascinating
[2:06]test case in the power of Donald Trump's persuasion slash the power that he has over the base, because now, I mean, he's sort of gone
[2:18]through the analysis stages of grief, and now he's in the anger phase. And the fact the way that he's lashing out and making it really personal, he's not naming names. but we'll show you some of the names that he's talking about
[2:31]when he says he's lost faith in people who are asking questions about that, not only, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene and some of his biggest supporters, on the Hill, some of his
[2:44]biggest supporters with the loudest MAGA megaphones in the on the internet, you know, in the podcast space sort of all over saying,
[2:57]we don't believe that there's nothing there. And again, there is no evidence that there doubt or there questions were born out of Democrats.
[3:10]This is all coming from Republicans who have been pushing this for a very long time. Yeah. And I think the question right now is whether he can get people off of this hobby horse that they've been talking about
[3:23]for a very long time here. And he's certainly shown in an ability to do that. You know, we we have recently when he decided to strike Iran, that was initially something that MAGA was very skeptical of. You know, they were very noninterventionist.
[3:36]He got them on board with that very quickly. I think this is a different thing, though. This is something that has been building not just since Jeffrey Epstein's suicide in 2019, but going back further than that. You know, we had the whole QAnon thing
[3:49]where the idea there was that there's this big, ring of pedophiles that Donald Trump is going to come into office and reveal. You know, that was much more extreme. I think Jeffrey Epstein is something that people
[4:01]who are more in the mainstream can get their arms around. We've seen polling that shows. Connected to. That. It's very much I mean, the, the, the, the ethos of both of these conspiracy theories is very similar. But Epstein is more accessible
[4:14]for people. And we've seen polling that shows a plurality of people, you know, most of the people who have an opinion on this don't believe that he actually killed himself. we have a new CNN poll this week that shows only 3% of Americans
[4:26]are satisfied with the answers they've been getting from the government. So this is a very live issue, and this is something that people have really lined up behind for a very long time. That makes it much harder to get them off of that issue. Go ahead. To your point to you
[4:39]about the base part of Donald Trump's appeal has been that he has been an. Outsider and. That he is going to go after the establishment and the parts of government that are concealing and that has given way
[4:51]for these conspiracy theories. And I think what's really interesting about this week is that it is his base kind to see him now aligned with that establishment. Is he now part of that deep state that they have been railing against? And that is why this
[5:05]this in particular to strikes at the core of the bench, it goes beyond this particular issue. And who He's aligning himself with this exact moment. It's so interesting that you say that because in the break,
[5:18]I got a text from somebody saying, who is he tried to protect? Yeah, I mean, it totally speaks to that. Before you come in, I do want to play for our viewers some of what I was referring to earlier, which everybody has seen, but I think is appropriate to
[5:31]remind them now, some of the examples of the president, now president again, and some of the people who are in his administration now pushing this idea.
[5:45]We'll start with the president, on Fox and Friends in June of 2024. Would you declassify the Epstein files? Yeah. Yeah, I would. All right. I guess I would.
[5:58]I think that less so because, you know, you don't know if you don't want to affect people's lives, if it's phony stuff in there, because it's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world. but I think I would or at least. Do you think that would restore
[6:10]trust? Help restore trust? I don't know about Epstein so much as I do the the certainly about the way he died will be interesting to find out what happened there, because that was a weird situation and the cameras didn't happen to be working, etc., etc.
[6:22]but yeah, I'd go a long way toward that one. Seriously, we need to release the Epstein list. that is an important thing. Put on your big boy pants. And let us know who the pedophiles are. We have, flight logs.
[6:35]We have information, names, that will come out. Now, I will say it is interesting, given the prism through which we're looking at this now,
[6:47]to hear the president saying, well, we got to be a little careful about phony stuff, like he there was something going on in his brain. I don't know if it's something that he knows because he knew Jeffrey Epstein very well or another.
[7:01]We spoke about it with nuance. Right. But he also leaned into the conspiracy theories and definitely has elevated and given, jobs to people who were way more bought into the conspiracy theory.
[7:14]And that's, to me, the biggest break up. And talking to people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, I've seen her reaction. She's not backing down so far into not just saying release the files, but saying, I'm not going to cater to
[7:28]a king. I'm not going to bow down to someone just because of a personality in Marjorie Taylor Greene. And the people like her are focusing on consistency because they bought into the conspiracy theories, and they're not
[7:41]willing to back down just because Trump is now saying, well, now it's a hoax. You know, she and many others are saying, we've long said that. We think that Democrats are evil in protecting, child abusers.
[7:53]That's a conspiracy theory they've peddled for years. And they thought that Trump was with them and would help them bear that out. And now that he's kind of backtracking, they're saying, well, wait a second, we're still there. We haven't moved.
[8:06]I just want to go back to the original post from this morning. that was so remarkable in how he told off his supporters. He said, my past supporters
[8:19]have bought into this bullshit hook, line and sinker. They haven't learned their lesson. They probably never will, even after being conned by the lunatic left. And then he said, let these weaklings continue forward
[8:32]and do the Democrats work. And then he said, I don't want their support anywhere anymore. Marc, you mentioned this, but I'll just underscore you have covered Donald Trump for a while. You've covered his base intensely.
[8:45]What are we not thinking about here? When you talk to his aides and you talk to his advisers, what they'll say when you ask them, look, this is what a guilty guy sounds like. They say, no,
[8:58]what Trump doesn't like is his name is going to be in the files. And he knows that when a story comes out about the files that are going to be released, he's going to get that headline. He just doesn't want to deal with it. He also identifies
[9:10]he has repeatedly, I should say, defended men who have been accused of sexual impropriety. And he has a tendency to sort of project onto those people who are attacked his own experience
[9:24]and automatically rise up and defend them and then promulgate again his own sort of conspiracy theories with always reacting to this is similar to the way he reacted to Covid. It was something beyond his control,
[9:36]and that rather than handle it in sort of a more rational and predictable and reasonable way, he just sort of lashed out and went a little crazy and started saying things that were wild. And that's what he's doing again. But again,
[9:48]when you talk to his aides, you talk to advice, you talk to people who know him. They say, we don't think that there's any there there. But his reaction is just sort of his immune system response to these sorts of allegations. And this is what you get.
[10:01]I will say, you know, the idea that he's going at his base on this issue. there was another finding from the CNN poll this morning that I think is really applicable, applicable here. And it found that 21% of Americans
[10:14]strongly approve of Donald Trump. That is the lowest that number has been in any CNN poll in his first or second terms, we often think of Donald Trump having 40 to 45% of this country locked down. But there is an issue of
[10:26]of motivation. There is an issue of how strongly people support him. And right now he's at a low ebb on that measure. Really. That's not real quick. I'll just say it's not and it's exhaustive dismissed. Because it's also the farm worker
[10:38]issue and immigration and also the wars. This stuff is piling up. Yeah. No, that's a good point. I just had President Trump lash out again at the amount of attention the Jeffrey Epstein files are getting. It's all been a big hoax.
[10:51]It's perpetrated by the Democrats and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net. And so they try and do the Democrats work. the Democrats are good for nothing other than these hoaxes.
[11:06]Well, this comes as some of the president's most loyal allies in Congress aren't satisfied with the amount of information shared about files on Epstein and accused sex trafficker. Time now for the exchange. Joining us is Republican strategist and founder of Blue
[11:19]Sack Strategies, Maura Gillespie. Maura, it's good to see you. So if people are getting whiplash now hearing the president saying that the Epstein files have all been perpetrated now by the Democrats, I'd like to remind viewers of what really happened
[11:32]and how this actually became a problem for the president. Put very succinctly by Marc Short this morning. He was on CNN and he, of course, was the former chief of staff to former vice
[11:44]president Pence during Trump's first term. Here's how he laid it out. Last year itself during the campaign cycle. You're now attorney general, your FBI director, your deputy FBI director,
[11:56]your vice president all proclaimed that there's a lot of nefarious information in those files, and they're going to make sure that they're released. And then you come into office and you say, I have the files on my desk, and then you say that
[12:08]we've had an issue, the release, the files. So a group of social media influencers. And then your narrative becomes, actually there are no files. And yet now the narrative is of the files were created by Comey, Obama and Hillary.
[12:21]I think it's quite a remarkable narrative arc. And that is the actual narrative arc. How much of a problem is this for the president and the Republican Party in his base right now?
[12:36]It's a it's actually a big problem because it's just this idea of Trump can usually get away with it, right? He can usually convince his supporters, that it's a hoax. And his last line, just a few minutes ago, he said it's a hoax.
[12:49]The hoax, the hoax. And that usually works, but it's not sticking. And now, by calling everyone who is questioning him, childish and stupid people, I don't think it's going to sit. Well,
[13:02]I don't know how much abuse that his supporters can take. but this is clearly someone who is very angry, very defiant and frustrated that his attempts to push the blame off on Clinton and Obama,
[13:14]didn't work. So now he's just going to double down on defiance, and disparaging, which is an unfortunate, thing, because Republicans in Congress are stuck kind of in the middle. They're trying to decide, you know, who do they align with today?
[13:28]ask for more transparency, which is what they all campaigned on and what they told their constituents they were fighting for. or do they stand behind the president no matter what he says and does? And so I think that that's what you're seeing, play out right now is it's a real problem.
[13:42]but I will say, too, you know, I think that for Republicans talking about it, right, you had like, speaker Mike Johnson talk to, reporters in an interview yesterday. Republicans talking about this. That's a problem for Trump when Democrats
[13:54]you know, take this up and want to focus on it so heavily that actually it benefits Trump. so it's probably better for them to focus more so on, the big vehicle bill. They don't like, the polling there seems to be in their favor.
[14:06]I and Democratic strategists, I wouldn't tell them to focus on this. I think Republicans talking about it is the actual problem for the president. Yeah, absolutely. and and when obviously over the past sort of eight years
[14:19]or ten years almost, we've gotten to know President Trump quite well. One of the strategies that he employs when he's cornered, or when they're headlines that he doesn't like, is the sort of tried and true strategy of deflecting,
[14:32]of coming up with sort of other headlines for the media to talk about. how likely is it that Donald Trump is going to, in the coming days and months, employ that strategy, i.e. make news for other reasons?
[14:45]something outlandish that we might see in the press, for example, and that just being a strategy to get everybody to stop talking about Epstein. I would expect that to happen if it doesn't happen today. It will happen tomorrow.
[14:58]I truly believe that he has seen that work in his favor. but he also likes being part of the news cycle when it serves him well. He enjoys kind of riling it up and seeing how much control he can have over, the media
[15:10]and what they talk about from one minute to the next. he likes to play, the stock market, right? He likes to say, that, you know, again, with the whole tariff deadline moving from April to July to August,
[15:23]you know, he's playing with things that he knows that he has that kind of power in that control. and I think that that becomes incumbent upon members of Congress, those in leadership, to take the step back and to not necessarily
[15:35]feed into that, because it's going to be really important. And the media as well, not necessarily always feed into, his attempts, because I do think that you're going to have some of those in the MAGA base that he is now calling stupid people get very upset about this.
[15:48]I don't think they're going to let this go. because so much of the campaign focused on the Department of Justice being, you know, Trump constantly said it was being weaponized. Well, and what is happening now, is he now up analyzing it
[16:01]by concealing the truth? And so for money and MAGA, that's how they feel. they feel it's of happening right now. Perhaps. Maybe that's why the president so he's repeatedly bashed fed chair Jay Powell in the past,
[16:13]all of a sudden, as there's more pressure on him about Epstein, come more reports, perhaps, of firing Jay Powell. That is quite a deflection. and again, this is something
[16:25]the president has spoken out against, on in the past, but it is worthy of considering, as we know, that this is one of his tactics as well. Maura Gillespie, thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
[16:39]He's not just mad at his Fed chair. He's also insulting a lot of people who voted for him when it comes to this Jeffrey Epstein issue. until actually, the speaker just said something. So I want to play what he said.
[16:51]This is Speaker Johnson calling for information about Epstein to be released. Let's listen. I have been, misquoted and misrepresented on all of that. Go watch the interview I did with Vinnie Johnson.
[17:04]Pretty clear. I mean, we're for transparency. I'm saying the same thing outside of stanchions that I think I mean, you need to have all of the credible information released to the American people
[17:17]to make their decision. We trust the American people, and I know the president does as well. It's important principle to abide by here. What they have to do, though, what the president has to do is, attack the innocent. I mean, there are, you know, whistleblowers and minors
[17:31]names involved in things related to thing. Obviously you can't you gotta be careful not to release that. I think that speaks to the difficulty that some members, especially in the House
[17:43]GOP, are having with Trump stance on this. What do you make of what you just heard from the speaker, and how Trump is navigating this issue? I think you key on a really important point. This is a box canyon of their own making that is very difficult to get out of when you've been promising something
[17:56]to your voters and very active voting base over the course of a period of years. and that's what makes what the president has done so fascinating over the course of the last couple days, both on Truth Social, but also in his comments today.
[18:08]He is always so careful, to take good care of his base. We see it in his policies. We see it in his priorities. We see it in how his emergency services work sometimes, and his willingness to try and go down the path
[18:20]of saying all those things I told you and all those things you saw. They don't actually exist anymore. If they do exist, they're the Democrats fault. and it's a hoax, and we need to move on. Why aren't you paying me more attention for my successes? It's a tough game
[18:34]to actually pitch when you've been saying the alternative for the better part of years, and people have voted on it, and your members have gotten behind it, and your members who support you deeply across the board on everything are saying, wait,
[18:46]we said we're going to do this. You've delivered on everything else you promised during the campaign. There's a very long list. It's actually quite impressive, except for this. That seems strange. Yeah, they're having a hard time selling that. It's a Democratic led hoax.
[18:59]Like he is alleging that it is because it so clearly isn't. and they're struggling with. That's the hole in it. Yes. Yeah. Phil, thank you so much for taking us through that. Super helpful. Let's dig deeper on this with Will Sommer. He is a senior reporter
[19:11]for The Bulwark and author of Trust the Plan The Rise of QAnon and the Conspiracy That Reshaped the World. Well, thanks so much for being with us. How do you think Trump's message is being received specifically on this Epstein scandal
[19:25]and him calling it a hoax? I think it's going very poorly for the president. I mean, I think the Epstein case and the idea that, you know, there was this pedophile cabal, is sort of an article of faith among MAGA, MAGA voters.
[19:38]And I think a lot of other people as well. and now the Trump excuse me, the president not only saying, you know, there's nothing here. But now today, going on the offensive against his own supporters, saying, you know, I don't want you as a Trump supporter
[19:51]if you believe in this stuff, or, you know, calling them stupid weaklings. I mean, it's really unprecedented and they're not taking it well. You've described this as five different MAGA factions who are waging this civil war
[20:04]over the Epstein issue. Explain why that makes it so unmanageable for Trump in the White House. Yeah. I mean, I think you have one group that is really falling in line behind Trump and saying, you know, Trump
[20:16]said to move on. We cited the commentator, Dinesh D'Souza basically said, I know we were all excited about Epstein in that case, but we're just going to have to, you know, almost like a dictator. We're just gonna have to do what he says. and then you have a lot of people. I mean,
[20:28]the big groups here are people who have, you know, in terms of the right wing media, have really built a significant part of their careers on Epstein and related conspiracy theories, and they know their audience. I think, you know, somewhat reasonably thinks that there's something more than the public
[20:41]has seen going on here, at least, and then suddenly is getting a lot of whiplash when the president is saying, never mind. I mean, a few months ago, JD Vance himself was talking about seeing the seen client list and wanting to see it. Yes.
[20:54]Another court in this sort of weird place. I, I do think it's important to sort of dissect some of the word salad that we've heard from Trump when he's asked questions specifically about these files,
[21:06]and he suggests that James Comey was involved, that former President Obama or former President Biden were involved. Jeffrey Epstein was arrested and prosecuted when Donald Trump was president,
[21:19]prosecuted by an AG that he, had confirmed by the Senate an FBI director that he appointed. So this was the Trump administration overseeing this investigation, right?
[21:32]That's right. I mean, look, I mean, he he died in a jail that is that was controlled by the Trump Justice Department. and so it's very bizarre now in this idea that Obama or Comey or Biden was involved in, like, cooking these files
[21:45]is really coming out of nowhere. and I think that's partially why that that idea that Trump is floating sort of a distraction, a deflection to his supporters, really has been getting no traction with them. Is there any danger? And we're hearing
[21:57]Democrats say, you know, they're they promised something they didn't deliver. but long have we heard Democrats, will talking about how it's really dangerous that Republicans plan a conspiracy theory
[22:10]at theories. And we're hearing a number of Democrats now sort of saying, well, what is being buried? Is there a danger in them doing that and fanning the flames of that, because it's not just Republicans who are wondering
[22:22]what's in these files? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, certainly the FCC case has been the source of a lot of, I think, dangerous conspiracy theories, including QAnon. On the other hand, I think reasonable people
[22:34]can think a lot still hasn't come out. I mean, I know reporters who have followed this case very closely. Very legitimate people are saying there's still a lot we don't know. and that I think we reasonably could expect to know. Why was Jeffrey Epstein given such a nice,
[22:48]prosecute, guilty plea deal back, in 2008? And, you know, all these other questions. why did he have such high powered connections? and so I think that's why people are just so surprised
[23:00]that Trump is now saying, you know, we're closing the door on this. Why do you even care about it? Yeah. We have to remind people he was a convicted sex offender when he died. or, certainly one who had admitted to that. Will Sommer,
[23:12]Thank you. So much. We really appreciate it.