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[1:26][Music] all right welcome to law and crime
[1:38]network's law and crime report i am your host bob bianchi just uh eight days ago rocking the nation rocking our democracy a raid an insurrection
[1:49]in the capital the seat of democracy loved and respected around the world and you all know the story about what happened there and the consequences of it now
[1:58]are the biden inauguration has up to close we're being told 20 000 national guard troops that will be there in addition to other law enforcement assets
[2:09]it is an unbelievable nick mark with consequences that will go on both domestically and internationally for many years let me bring in my guest very quickly so we can get started
[2:19]we have michelle heyman cantor out of new york a former ada at a queen queens county district attorney's office with over 10 years experience handling many felony trials white-collar crimes sex
[2:30]crimes and domestic violence cases and interesting she was a broadcast news writer and we have bob hilla um a law and crime analyst always here on the long crime network and a former
[2:41]new jersey morris county friend of mine we practice in the same area he focuses in insurance and health care law state and federal white-collar investigations he's a certified supreme court
[2:53]uh civil trial attorney a very very coveted distinction to get here in the state of new jersey the past president of the new jersey state bar association guys let's just jump right into this we
[3:04]are being told that the secret service is in charge of this investigation they have cordoned off and blocked with fences and barricades and barriers blocks and blocks around where the vice
[3:15]president's residence is where the white house is and the capital as well as where the inauguration is to take place um bob let me go to you first i mean
[3:26]i i know there's two sides and people feel one way or the other but there is absolutely no justification that what went on here shocking to me was the fact that we could actually have this happen with
[3:37]literally no police response no law enforcement response so what are your thoughts bob about this whole thing and what impact this is going to have on how people view
[3:48]us even bad actors internationally as we now have to take our law enforcement assets and concentrate on domestic terrorism which takes away our ability to investigate uh international
[4:00]terrorism bob terrible situation what do you think well i think the first thing obviously those who were in charge of keeping security
[4:08]um you know that day on january 6 misjudged the size of the of the crowds and misjudged how the crowd would respond
[4:20]they clearly weren't ready for the type of activity that occurred in terms of how we're viewed outside our borders i think that's a lot of that's going to
[4:30]be determined by how we respond uh on um inauguration day and as you talked about bob you know security's been beefed up uh intelligence is being monitored the
[4:42]secret service has taken over jurisdiction and is coordinating national guard forces of about 20 000 u.s capitol police the park police washington metropolitan police
[4:53]department so this time you have everybody working together and the key i think the success here is they're trying to keep the crowds further away they're trying to create a configuration that's going to
[5:04]keep crowds from getting large and then they're going to have the forces in place to make sure uh that they can minimize uh any harm that that
[5:14]those crowds might try and do okay uh michelle they're i my spidey instinct as a former prosecutor are in the red here right now
[5:24]there is i think going to be a lot of information that's going to come out that there were people that were involved in law enforcement potentially the capital police themselves and in the military that were part of
[5:35]all this so that's going to be a big thing that we're going to have to cover with respect to that and moreover from this point going forward what do we do to uh as far as use of force is
[5:45]concerned i'm just curious if people breach a perimeter at this inauguration i'm not even sure if it's lawful so i don't know the answer but i'll throw it to you is shoot to kill is that an appropriate response at this
[5:56]point because you cannot let people get to the new president uh by any way shape or for means and don't get me wrong folks before people start getting agitated i'm not suggesting that people just be shot and killed but
[6:07]i'm unfortunately good people that are protesting are mixed in with these elements that are bad and innocent people are going to get hurt what do you think is going to happen with the use of force policies
[6:17]here well i think even in just the first clip that you showed it was really poignant to see that the police officer was chased back in the capital
[6:27]by a mob itself so that is the first thing that has to change and i think it's going to because as you mentioned with 20 000 national guard being brought in plus thousands of other police officers
[6:38]they're already on the right road to getting this taken care of and they're going to be armed which i think is a difference from before and you juxtapose that with 8 000 troops for trump or 6 000 for
[6:50]obama you can already see a staggering presence and a difference from what happened last week shoot to kill would obviously be everyone's last choice but i think they're going to be armed right now and they're going to be
[7:01]prepared in a much more different way than they were for the capital siege yeah the problem to those innocent people and i can't emphasize this enough as a public service announcement if you are a protester
[7:12]that's what our country is about stay away because infiltrated within these groups are people that are there dying to destroy this government not democrats not republicans they are just anti-government
[7:24]you don't want to be anywhere near them if something bad happens let's switch gears a little bit to talk about some of the folks that are involved in this everybody will remember the famous picture of the individual that was in there uh with the
[7:35]uh camp auschwitz shirt and had that uh german logo which is a very offensive work uh brings freedom
[7:42]robert keith packer has been arrested again another you know incredible thing let's let's just throw to the u.s
[7:51]attorney as they're talking about this the men and women of the fbi will leave no stone unturned in this investigation since these events
[8:02]the fbi has worked hand-in-hand with the united states attorney's office and our law enforcement partners here in d.c and across the country to arrest
[8:11]and charge multiple individuals who took part in the destruction in six days we have opened over 160 case files and
[8:21]that's just the tip of the iceberg the significance of this investigation is not lost on us this is a 24 7 full bore
[8:31]invest extensive operation into what happened that day we cannot do our job without the help of the american people
[8:41]since our call for tips videos and pictures we have received more than one hundred thousand pieces of digital media which is absolutely fantastic and we are
[8:51]scouring everyone for investigative and intelligence leads you know one of the beautiful things about this whole thing as far as an investigative standpoint is this is a group that typically
[9:02]believes that their quote-unquote freedoms don't require that they wear masks thanks for that as far as law enforcement is concerned and then posted their stuff on social media double thanks for that i don't know if
[9:13]you get credit for stupidity with regard to that or what have you but uh bob let me go back i mean it's not just this guy from you know auschwitz uh the asteroid shirt that's been arrested over 12 times we have people like that the kid that you saw that's
[9:25]from new jersey 28 years old where a woman was shot and killed by capitol police as she tried to enter into uh the chamber who had blood on his hand well he's been arrested a william pepe
[9:36]31 who is a new york mta worker uh he's been arrested uh two rocky mountain police officers just amazing they they've been arrested and there's
[9:47]indications that there are more police that may be involved with that and i can go on and on with the list of people including an elected state representative who has been arrested as well
[9:58]bob what do you think like what is the dynamic here is have they been unleashed has crazy been unleashed and now they're taking advantage of of
[10:09]the environment we're in politically and is the genie out of the bottle bob well it could be when when that wave crashes and loses its energy we don't
[10:20]know but you know as as the fbi director talked about um earlier there's an ongoing investigation here now most of the people this is not about first amendment um
[10:31]they're not being arrested because they even had an auschwitz hoodie they're being arrested because they disregarded directives they had no
[10:42]authorization to be where they were they had no entitlement to cause damage to cause physical harm and so once they passed those barriers
[10:53]they stopped exercising their first amendment rights and became criminals now what's interesting is most of the initial crimes that these people have been charged with have all been sort of
[11:05]criminal trespassing charges destruction of property charges and disorderly persons but as they pointed out there's an ongoing investigation social
[11:15]media as you said people were advertising their bad acts the gentleman showing the blood on his hand from the woman who was shot in the neck trying to get through a glass window
[11:26]so this investigation is far from over and i think the charges will get worse for some of these people and i think it's also going to start to paint a picture of
[11:38]where that mayhem was organized where it was planned how it was executed and that is where you're going to find out and get the answers to the question you just
[11:49]asked who's behind this is this a concerted effort by a number of organized groups and domestic terrorists a massive breakdown in intelligence as well as policing
[12:01]those who did the job congratulations they fought off immeasurable odds because the right thing wasn't done beforehand we got national guard troops that are now stationed
[12:10]inside the capital of the united states of america as a result of this and i know those on the fringe groups and on the far right are cheering it but i expect as bob is indicating an overwhelming
[12:21]response by law enforcement with regard to not only prosecuting but deterring for future acts like this as well so sad so unfortunate we're gonna have to take a quick break here but when we
[12:32]come back on the other end ahmad aubrey is back in the news we'll be right back was he defending himself did you like
[12:44]his defending himself yeah i mean if the guy would have stopped you know i mean find out what was going on i mean this would have never happened um you know
[12:53]should we even chase me i don't know i mean but uh yeah no at that point he was he one time when i cornered him up over here
[13:04]he was trying to get my truck he tried to get in my door okay so that was on his road here yeah it was on that road that road so he did he come up your door and was pulling your door hand on the
[13:14]driver's side so let me ask you this what you know what did it look like he was trying to do he was trying to get he was trying to get on this side of the car right what did it look like he was trying to do what
[13:25]yeah i mean i'd cut him off pretty good now you know but i mean he actually pulled your hand i wouldn't be surprised if that's his works right there okay he's trying to get the handle okay
[13:35]yeah all right all right did uh nobody got this on video you just witnessed it i got it you got it on video okay you
[13:46]ready yes sir yeah at what point did you start videoing well i thought he's gonna get away okay so that was you was getting trying to get capture who you look like yeah i mean to be honest with you i probably got two videos three videos i mean i
[13:58]probably started over here i don't know what i got because half the time i was trying to drive then i realized i was having a damn seat belt on if i could throw in a damn windshield trying to chase this joker okay you know so i kind of threw the phone down so they didn't tell
[14:09]what's on there be honest with you okay but i think this is on there okay because at this point i could see his face with my camera okay and because he had turned back around coming this way so that's the reason i could
[14:20]i picked the phone back up the video at that point all right yeah let's take a look man okay so that's william roddy brian jr you've seen that tape probably a number of times you're following following this case he has a
[14:31]new application made to the court now he was the individual that was behind the father and son team as uh the altercation occurred and he was videotaping the incident well he is
[14:42]now saying through his attorney that he has seen the prison cardiologist and that he is on meds and he's being treated but his blood pressure is still
[14:51]180 over 100 plus at any given time and that he's not able to meaningfully participate and they're asking in his defense and they're asking for a compassionate release
[15:01]uh from prison while he is uh waiting for trial as you know all three defendants have been denied bail on the case bob uh let me go to you first now
[15:10]that blood pressure of 180 over 110 uh when it's being controlled by meds is extremely high it's it's very high in the jail in my estimation with all due respect and i
[15:21]don't know this particular jail but i've been around the block for 30 years doing this i've prosecuted cases in which people didn't get the right health care i've defended cases in which they can get in help their proper health care
[15:32]a number of people that i've been involved with in the criminal justice system have died because of the neglect of health care it now keeping in mind that he's presumed
[15:42]innocent and of the three and it's gonna be people get agitated of the three he is the least culpable of all three individuals i don't believe he's got a prior record
[15:54]there's no uh instances of failure to appear in court that i am aware of and those are traditionally the factors that courts look at in order to assure the presence of the defendant at trial
[16:05]i mean not having proper medical care should not result in a death sentence and i know that may sound odd as a prosecutor who was very hardcore on criminals but if they can't maintain and control
[16:17]it they either control it or in my mind the judge has to make the tough call what do you think well i think a couple things number one you're right first amendment's implicated here
[16:28]uh i mean um not the first presumption of innocence is implicated here so um you know we're in an issue where
[16:37]now the due process uh gets employed and part of that is going to be that he's able to fairly defend himself and if he's medically in a bad position he may not be able to do that so those are facts the other point you
[16:48]made is that all these cases are really um unique so you have to look at the facts and the first fact is number one um you know justice's
[17:00]interest in this case is to make sure that he appears for trial that he's not a threat to the community and that he was not a threat to the process in terms of witnesses or
[17:11]tampering evidence or anything like that so presumably those were there and and if there was bail set i'm not sure what the bail circumstances were here
[17:21]so he could have been out uh on that assuming that he couldn't get out on that now you have the compassionate release and that's that's where you get this due process and presumption of innocent considerations
[17:32]as well um you know so i again it's going to depend on whether he can get the adequate care there if he can't then the judge has to look at what do you think michelle you're a former prosecutor and
[17:42]you've handled lots of felony cases i'm interested in your perspective from a prosecutorial standpoint so i think this is a little bit different because we're talking almost about a bail argument versus somebody who's been
[17:53]in prison for a long time who's asking for a humanitarian race which is a granted and rare circumstances and usually for a terminal illness so because this is dealing with bail and
[18:04]somebody who they're just trying to get back to court i think if he makes a strong case that um his life is in danger um he's got a shot um i have dealt with cases where
[18:15]defendants have been released um we had one where he was on dialysis on a non-violent felony he was released so i mean yes you're right this shouldn't be a death sentence for him he wants to stand trial
[18:25]he wants to be able to participate i will make note that this is the second time they've tried to use another reason to get out the first time i believe his defense attorney said that he was just the cameraman and he wasn't
[18:36]really involved and just a concerned citizen so i think they're really going to have to make a strong argument for his case that he can't get the proper medical treatment but he might have a shot okay great you
[18:48]know uh ahmad's mother has been very vocal about this case and it's heartbreaking let's take a listen to what she's had to say so far about what's been going on about the death of her son which is
[18:59]being alleged to have been a murder as the court may imagine i have suffered i continue to suffer mentally and
[19:10]emotionally while i wait for justice for my son my daughter jasmine's older sister jasmine ammar's older sister
[19:21]his best friend just had our first baby i often think as she begins to journey motherhood will i have the words of wisdom
[19:35]to help her along the way mothers protect the children i wasn't given the opportunity to protect my son
[19:46]i'm here to ask this court to help me be a mother who protects my grandchildren and fight for justice for my son he ran this path
[20:00]many times and our home was just a light jog away but for him no matter how he maneuvered
[20:15]no matter how he how fast he ran no matter how fast he ran or how quickly
[20:25]he turned these men refused to let him go home they should not go home now to prepare for their defense
[20:36]to enjoy their children and grandchildren and to be embraced by the community these men are as dangerous today as they
[20:47]were on february 23rd of 2020. michelle you know as a prosecutor that i i i i'll be interested in your feelings i always liked trying cases against
[20:58]really skilled defense lawyers because it just seemed you didn't have to deal with the crazy sometimes you deal with lawyers that aren't i mean you play you play a better game uh when you have an adversary that's worthy
[21:08]these defense attorneys have filed motions such as to stop prosecutors from using the word victim in court because they say that that is
[21:17]reversing the burden of uh proof because he can't be the jury makes a decision as to whether he's a victim or not because they're claiming self-defense they want to limit the amount of trial
[21:28]photos and autopsy photos to one and they don't want a person from the family to make those identifications they want to forget forbid spectators from wearing masks that have things on it like black lives matter i can't
[21:39]breathe or similar slogans and they're looking for all of the medical records criminal records disciplinary records mental health records telephone records and social media
[21:49]accounts etc if any to be produced um that's a pretty significant array of motions something's telling me these lawyers know what the defense lawyers know what they're doing here
[22:01]right well i completely agree with you you would rather go up against somebody who knows what they're doing it ups your game although sometimes it is nice to have somebody who doesn't but um these motions are going to depend
[22:11]you know they're arguing that calling um an arbor a victim is going to be more prejudicial to the jury than probative that's an argument for the judge to determine especially if it's self-defense
[22:21]um i don't know if it's going to work he was shot while he was running in broad daylight so that's gonna against that and as you uh bob mentioned right now they are presumed innocent
[22:33]the defendants but that means the prosecutor it's their burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt a very high criminal standard that these three are guilty of the
[22:43]murder so if they meet the prosecutors have to be armed with all of the material that they need to in order to meet their high burden so i think the judge probably will give them leeway to use the materials that
[22:53]they need right and bob you know a lot of people get um in the lay community get agitated when they hear this but the defense attorneys point out that first amendment writes if you want to do
[23:05]that outside if you want to call him a victim outside if you want to wear those mashing shirts and so on and so forth fine but when you breach that line and come into a courtroom it's about fairness and the defendant getting his
[23:15]sixth amendment rights and all of his other constitutional rights to a fair trial um and so that's why these motions are being filed so whether the judge grants them or not the defense does have a fair argument to
[23:25]say that we want to mitigate any prejudice and let it be more about the facts and law as opposed to the court of public opinion which is more and more over the years bob you tell me in your experience
[23:36]becoming more about trial by court of public opinions about as opposed to trial by law in a courtroom well the explosion of media on you know in every facet of our life it's really
[23:47]hard to get away from what's going on um so yeah i mean it you're you're not going to be able to shield people uh from perhaps comments that shouldn't
[23:58]impact what they're going to be do doing for instance if they're a juror in terms of deciding a case so you know with respect to the defense counsel's arguments what they're saying is look we're not saying you can't have a
[24:10]first amendment right to exercise how you feel about the process how you feel about how that process is applied to certain communities but what goes on in that courtroom both
[24:21]from the defendant's standpoint as well as the public standpoint is we need to maintain an integrity of a system the sixth amendment says you have an impartial jury
[24:31]you don't want to threaten intimidate or influence that jury in any way and that is why the judges have a lot of
[24:41]leeway for what goes on in that courtroom because the focus should be on allowing the parties to uh address what justice needs to do and that's that the defendant committed a
[24:52]crime or didn't commit a crime um and uh and that that that's the person that should be subjected to the process all right guys galen maxwell believe it
[25:04]or not who's been deny bail twice is back in the news we're gonna get to that on the other end of the break stay with us today after many years glenn maxwell
[25:21]finally stands charged for her role in these crimes these charges we announced today are the
[25:33]latest result of our investigation into epstein and the people around him who facilitated his abuse of minor victims
[25:42]that investigation remains ongoing my office and the fbi remain committed to doing all within our ability to bring justice to individuals
[25:53]who enabled facilitated and participated in the acts of abuse combating the exploitation of children is a priority of our office
[26:04]we are committed to pursuing and prosecuting those who exploit and abuse minors in case and in this case in every case and to that end i want to say to anyone
[26:15]who is watching or hears about this prosecution if you believe you are a victim of jeffrey epstein or glenn maxwell or anyone else who helped them
[26:26]regardless of when it occurred or have information about the conduct alleged in the indictment unsealed today please let us know you can reach the fbi and have access to victim and witness services
[26:38]by calling us at one eight hundred call fbi right delay maxwell has three times a charm tried to file for bail to be released
[26:49]three times denied and now is appealing the latest denial the prosecutors of course are saying pre-trial detention is necessary uh because to reasonably assure the defendant's appearance
[27:00]that she has contacts to france that doesn't have an extradition treaty she's got a ton of money she's facing extraordinarily serious charges in the federal government that could put her away
[27:10]for a lifetime as far as i can see and that there's been deceptive conduct on her past in her past michelle um the defense is saying here that this is de facto solitary confinement
[27:21]uh that under the most severe circumstances she's been excessively and invasively searched every day monitored 24 hours a day that there's camera surveillance in her cell
[27:32]supplemental cal cameras follow her when she's allowed out of herself just for short periods of time um and that she's woken up essentially every 15 minutes to see if she's still breathing when she's trying to sleep and
[27:43]that she is basically completely isolated give me your prosecutor version as to what you're going to say as to why the prosecutors are correct that glean maxwell
[27:54]is a threat and a danger and should not be released as opposed to michelle to their suggestion that they'd have a guard watching her she was released gps monitoring and home confinement
[28:05]why isn't that enough well right this is a huge break from her rich and famous lifestyle um that she's been living her whole life she is in for sex trafficking so it's
[28:16]going to be a huge difference but prosecutors are exactly right to want to keep her in this woman has so much money she's asking for almost 29 million dollars worth of security which
[28:27]goes exactly to the point that she has this much money to escape she has three passports for the united states the uk and france so she has all the means to flee she has
[28:39]almost no ties to the community she is charged with exceedingly serious charges of sex trafficking so all of those go to the reason why she should be behind bars yes she could get granted bail but she
[28:50]has a huge flight risk and that's the number one thing in trying to keep somebody and assure them that they're going to come back to court okay well we just listened to the prosecution's argument bob hiller i'm throwing it on to you as
[29:02]a defense lawyer what are you going to be arguing as to why she should be released to counter the great argument that michelle just made well you're going to say that look there
[29:13]number one there's a presumption of innocence so the defendant is entitled not to be subjected to the system or detention um
[29:21]until there's been a finding of of guilt against that society has an interest in making sure justice is done for that defendant and and holding them accountable if they committed a crime and that is where you
[29:33]get into the factors of flight risk danger to the public threat to witnesses once this defendant poses no risks in any of those categories then they're really entitled to bail
[29:44]under the eighth amendment here because we're dealing with federal court i think the southern district issued the indictment so the argument is going to be that the amount of money here rather
[29:55]than indicating she can just pay and disappear is is substantial enough to ensure her appearance and that there are no other factors the other interesting thing with respect to her treatment in the jail is that they don't want a
[30:07]repeat of jeffrey epstein which is really what this case is all about right absolutely guys let's switch skills real quick a major decision by the supreme court of the united states in a case that
[30:18]rocked new orleans and that was with regard to reversing a conviction for the killing of uh will uh i apologize will smith who was the victim of a shooting he was
[30:29]a player a former player for the new orleans saints cardell hayes um basically was convicted but this was like an altercation that occurred on the street where they were driving their vehicles
[30:39]there was an accident it's alleged that will smith had driven away from the accident cardell hayes went in pursuit got into an accident with will smith's car they got out of the car they were
[30:50]exchanging heated words will smith's wife was part of this whole thing and then eventually will smith retreated to his vehicle with his wife when cardell hayes fired a
[31:00]number of times striking and killing will smith and injuring and wounding his wife he went to trial and he was convicted by a 10
[31:09]to two jury that's right 10 to 2 not 12 not a unanimous verdict while the supreme court had issued a decision earlier in 2020 in the case of ramos versus louisiana
[31:20]that indicated that yet non-unanimous verdicts are not constitutional and as a result of that decision cardell hayes has been released the case has been remanded
[31:32]back to the lower courts to make a determination as to whether prosecutors will continue to pursue cardel uh who was basically arguing that this was a situation of self-defense because
[31:43]cardell argued he said that he was going back into his car to get a gun bob um i mean no-brainer in terms of the decision of ramos versus louisiana
[31:54]but there's been a lot of controversy about this louisiana law i think there was only other one state that had it that you could have a non-unanimous verdict many argue and i believe rightly so that
[32:04]this was part of the jim crow laws all the way back to 1898 in order to ensure that minorities who may serve on jurors voices were quelched
[32:16]by a majority of white jurors anyway it's been on the books forever what are your thoughts about how the supreme court ruled both in the ramos case and here well i think in this case the supreme
[32:27]court of course they got it right from their own perspective and it's their call but um the fact that only two states were in this situation where they had non-unanimous verdicts
[32:39]um oregon and louisiana indicate that it was about time to overturn the apodaca versus oregon decision from 1972 which ramos did
[32:50]last year so um you know it's no surprise here that this conviction based on a 10 to 2 jury vote was running counter to now what the law
[33:02]of the land is that the sixth amendment requires a unanimous jury or a conviction on in this case it was uh manslaughter and attempted manslaughter of the wife
[33:13]uh who was shot once so michelle by by the accounts at least by the news the jurors came out excuse me and indicated it was a compromise verdict and that they weren't
[33:25]even happy with that and still the question was as they were waiting for deliberations to come through and get a verdict was it murder is it manslaughter or would the stand your ground self-defense law apply
[33:36]and exonerate cardell hayes so tell me from a prosecutor's point of view he spent five years in jail so far you had a jury that even with the ten to two couldn't come up with the murder conviction
[33:48]but only came up with manslaughter which is significant he got a 25 25-year sentence of what you spent five years in what is the evaluation that you go through as to whether or not you're going to continue with prosecution
[33:58]or at least in my mind you tell me if you think differently after all this time has gone by witnesses memories fade trying a case twice is never great for prosecutors you may go to the defense and say let's
[34:10]make a deal i think you're exactly right i think it's very hard often to retry a case especially one that's about six years old at this point just like you mentioned witnesses
[34:20]memories fade you rely on testimony that's already out there so you have many impeachable lines and evidence um you have a bunch of things that have changed and i think it is in their best
[34:31]interest to try to maybe strike a deal depending on how much is left on cardell hayes sentence the jury clearly split the baby a little bit between murder and decided that he was guilty of
[34:42]manslaughter which is a less less culpable mind state so that would factor into it as well so i think i think from this perspective they do have an opportunity to revisit it
[34:53]save everyone at trial and maybe come to a different plea excellent guys great analysis guys we're going to take a break right now but on the other end of it we're going to have a primer on the law
[35:03]in a case in which a prosecutor's office on the second time after a lot of public pressure refuses to indict a police officer in a police related shooting fatality we'll
[35:13]be back on the other end of the break in response to the request from mr grant's family
[35:24]in october of 2020 i assembled a team of highly experienced attorneys to conduct an exhaustive review of the facts and the evidence surrounding the events
[35:34]that led to and resulted in oscar grant's death we then analyzed the statutes governing the law of murder manslaughter and any other crimes that could apply
[35:45]we looked at applicable legal doctrine and case law as each applies to the facts and the evidence we took our time had many meetings and
[35:55]delved deeply into the legal analysis before coming up with the conclusion that i have now reached and am endeavoring to explain to mr grant's family
[36:05]as well as to our community the california supreme court rendered an opinion recently in fact on december 17th of 2020
[36:15]which is incorporated into our review and our decision today i will be meeting with the grant family and their supporters
[36:23]to explain our decision okay so this is with respect to the oscar grand case and the incident was back in 2009 and i'm in possession of
[36:34]the report for those of you who are really interested in this case you should take a look at it because it really has a an incredibly detailed whether you agree with the decision or not
[36:43]analysis of the law and what prosecutors do when they're looking at evaluating a case michelle um let's let's talk a little bit about what went on here one of the facts was
[36:54]that unanticipated to the police officer that they're looking at now tony perrone another officer is the person who shot the victim in this case and that tony
[37:05]perron had no idea that he was going to shoot him and there seemed to be any reason to to know that he was going to shoot him the family got 50 000 signatures
[37:14]demanding prosecution which honestly you know bothers me because you shouldn't demand probably demand an investigation fine but like the attorney general is saying it has to be based on facts and has to be based on law
[37:24]now the other police officer went to trial on murder charges and was only convicted of manslaughter manslaughter is now barred by the statute of limitations in this case
[37:34]because so much time has gone by but the prosecutor lays out the fact that they just did not have significant enough evidence to connect officer perrone with the
[37:44]activities of the other officer who shot and therefore did not aid in the bet he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time and then she finally concludes there's a very detailed legal analysis here
[37:55]that she believes her ethical duties as a prosecutor are only to bring cases that she can prove beyond the reasonable doubt the 12 jurors based upon probable cause what are your thoughts about how this all broke out
[38:05]right decision wrong decision you know i'm not the one investigating it so i have to go off what the prosecutor is saying and it is very difficult for people who are not
[38:16]involved in the internal process to understand sometimes how a crime that looks so vicious can go unpunished or uncharged but here it seems like she's claiming that there is just isn't
[38:27]enough evidence to go forward that he was a part of the entire um murder so i think you know based on what she's saying in her investigation that's what i have to go off but i do sympathize and empathize
[38:39]with the family and community because it is very hard to understand sometimes how something so heinous can go unpunished or uncharged bob michelle makes an excellent point that i've been talking about on the long
[38:50]crime report and the network forever uh there's a difference between the feelings and and they say very clearly that because by the way he had hit the victim in this case and he had done
[39:01]some things that were not right the fact of the matter is he died from gunshot wounds not from those injuries and it does become difficult for the public to make a distinction between the fact that still the police officer is considered a
[39:12]defendant entitled to all the rights of the defendant including the presumption of innocence proof beyond the reasonable doubt and qualitative evidence that points towards guilt to some crime so there can be a lot of confusion with
[39:24]the public they see something that's horrible and don't understand why it's not being prosecuted what do you think well i think that's just it there is a lot of confusion between
[39:33]indictment and conviction and the level that you need to indict and the level that you need to prove guilt and convict and you and i have discussed you know the ethical
[39:45]dilemma that lawyers have and which the public doesn't see because not in that law is the ethical obligation that a lawyer has not to make frivolous claims and that does put a burden on a
[39:56]prosecutor to say hey look you know i can do a great splash you know i can indict a cabbage okay and find some way to get probable cause but at the end of the day i'm gonna have
[40:07]to prove this case in a trial with a jury and if i know that i don't have the evidence necessary to get to likely get a conviction then there's an ethical
[40:18]uh really consideration there that should keep that prosecutor from proceeding with the case and and being honest with the public about it that they can't because that can
[40:29]get that conviction as far as i see murder would be the only thing to be charged with the guy who shot the victim was not convicted after trial for murder-only manslaughter and manslaughter is now time-barred by
[40:40]the statute of limitations let's listen to a little bit more of the district attorney here former officer perroni cannot be charged with the crime of murder
[40:51]under a traditional theory of criminal liability because both prongs of murder are not met peroney did not commit the murder caught that or the act that caused the death of
[41:02]mr grant johannes messily pulled the trigger and that act directly caused mr grant's death michelle talk to us a little bit about what the the d.a is saying there
[41:14]and and what you need to prove for a murder um and what separates that from what happened in in this case where she's saying there is no tie-in to any plan or participation even in the thing that
[41:26]killed the victim right she's talking about the fact that peroni wasn't aiding and abetting this officer um in this so that's a totally different separate crime you need an overt act
[41:37]and clearly in this case she's saying perroni did not have that mental state and he wasn't acting as part of that so that's sort of going to differentiate why the one officer was charged and peyronie was not
[41:48]and those are distinctions that you have to make through the investigation and through the exact facts you know you have to parse out the video you have to parse out the witness statements you have to parse out exactly what's happened to ensure that you're charging the right
[41:59]people yeah and bob let's go to some of the other cases that we've seen where i personally have felt that the court of public opinion drove the prosecutor to charge in order to satiate the the
[42:10]the public and again no one is saying these things they said right here his actions were inappropriate but they don't rise to the level of criminal culpability for hitting him in the head inappropriately
[42:20]which was not the cause of death but the fact of the matter is do we do a service by just saying let's throw it up against the wall and let the person be tried and if they're not convicted then you have a big problem with respect to
[42:32]that and bob lastly what about this idea that signatures and petitions are now being a basis upon which people are demanding charges not demanding an investigation but demanding charges i i think it's
[42:44]we're headed down a bad path with that well i think the first thing is is that there's got to be integrity in the process so that's got to be preserved and that goes from the stage of indictment all the way through
[42:56]conviction petition people have a right to petition they have a right to be heard on something but again the obligation and it's a difficult job for the prosecutor
[43:05]to be able to stand ground against an overwhelming groundswell of uh support to indict and to prosecute not necessarily convict
[43:16]and then of course you know um the the final issue with respect to that um with that overwhelming community is that um you know at the end of the day where the
[43:28]more heinous the shooter's conduct was the less likely you're going to be able to show that this other person that was there wasn't just as surprised as everyone
[43:39]else was on the platform uh when this occurred well michelle when i was the county prosecutor i always said let's not let the tail wag the dog we make the right decisions and if we have to deal with what we have to deal with in the media at least we
[43:50]can hold our head up high let me ask you the question that everyone asks it's the chicken innate question is it better to have elected district attorneys that are more tethered to the constituency that votes
[44:01]for them or appointed ones by the governor where they have much more independence we got a short period of time i'm going to each ask you that question where do you stand on that michelle i'm going to go with elected
[44:12]where the people buy the people okay oh my goodness all right let me give the counter argument when i got the term for five years after being appointed by the governor i didn't have
[44:23]to worry about what people felt about my decisions i was freer to do what i thought was right and in these cases that you see around the country where these bad prosecutions of cops result in not guilty verdicts i say swayed by the court of public opinion
[44:35]and that wasn't right we got 30 seconds bob do you have can you give me anything like a little bit like that's a that's a good argument michelle real quick appointed prosecutors are going to have greater insulation against
[44:46]um bending the public opinion how about you michelle quick i think one man should not be making all these decisions you need team you need a community i think just like i said for the people by the people i'm gonna stand by
[44:58]okay guys thank you so much we gotta go stay tuned for our regularly scheduled program
[45:02]you can find me at rbyonkey esque
[45:17][Music] [Music] you