[0:00]To what extent was the queen complicit in hiding the truth and trying to cover this up? >> Well, she was I mean, you know, I've got plenty of testimony from people who went
[0:11]and complained to the queen and were sent away. >> I think it's clear that Andrew lied to everybody. He was using his royal connections to get in with all kinds of dictators all over the world, but also
[0:22]to be there with Epstein. And that's very concerning. Hello and welcome to the forecast. If you thought the Epstein files would damage Donald Trump, it is here in
[0:34]Britain where they have caused the most devastation. The most damning material yet about the former Prince Andrew include photographs that seem to show him on all fours over a woman on the
[0:44]floor, as well as humiliating emails from his ex-wife Sarah Ferguson to Epstein, in which she appears to suggest he marries her. It all raises new questions about the conduct of certain
[0:54]royals, the monarchy, and the palace's handling of this over many years, and what this new low means for the whole institution. Andrew has said nothing new, but consistently denies any
[1:05]wrongdoing despite his financial settlement with Virginia Grey. I'm joined by biographer Andrew Lowey, whose work has explored the private world of the Windsor, and historian Kate
[1:16]Williams, who has chartered the monarchy's turbulent existence across generations. Thank you both very much indeed. Andrew, I mean more and more comes out that takes this to new
[1:28]pathetic lows really. Uh and and you had warned that it was only going to get worse all along. >> Yes. And I think it's going to get even worse. I mean there's still 3 million uh pages that haven't been released and I
[1:39]think there's still many more people who can come forward and and talk. So I think it's it's he's not out of the woods. Are are you guessing that it could get worse or or or have you heard more than we've already
[1:50]>> Well, I've certainly got a lot of material from my own sources which I'm going to be putting in my paperback of my book. Uh so $5 million bribes uh the whole national security question which people haven't really looked at. The
[2:02]fact is both the Russians and Chinese saw the vulnerabilities of basically coing up to greedy royals as the way in. Uh and um there's there's I think quite a lot still I'm I've found to come out
[2:14]quite separately from whatever there is in the DOJ files. >> Um he he of course has always denied any wrongdoing. He hasn't said anything new.
[2:24]But Kate um how how much damage is this doing to the monarchy? I mean, you know, if the king thought he was stemming the the flow of
[2:35]the the blood flow, if you like, by cutting Andrew off, it's not really worked, has it? >> It is very damaging to the monarchy. I
[2:45]mean, we had everything that happened last year at the end of October just about when Mrs. Shifro's memoir was going to come out that Andrew, he he lost the title of Duke of York. He stepped back from it. He lost the title
[2:57]of prince. He's now about to move into this different residence in Sandreham that both Andrew Lowey and I think he's not going to last very long in. Uh but this doesn't seem to be enough because the revelations keep on coming and this
[3:09]latest photograph of Andrew on all fours. It seems like Andrew on all fours over this I mean very young woman. It's really very distressing to look at where you think of all these victims, all
[3:20]these survivors and what they've been through. And the fact is that they've not just been through this at the hands of Epstein, the hands of wealthy men all over the world it seems, but also a
[3:31]British royal and also Prince Andrew and no longer call Prince of course. And this, you know, what's it mean for the monarchy? It is damaging to the
[3:40]monarchy. It we we know that the certainly there were some we know that Virginia said she wasn't allowed to say anything. There was an NDA given to her throughout the year of the Queen's
[3:51]Jubilee in 2022. She said she wasn't permitted to speak out during the that was the terms of the NDA. They know it's damaging. It is damaging. And I think that no matter how much uh Charles and
[4:03]also William distanced themselves from Andrew, the fact is this was a senior member of the royal family. And he was using, as Andrew Lowi has shown in his book, he was using his royal connections
[4:14]to get in with all kinds of dictators all over the world, but also to be there with Epstein. And that's very concerning. I mean I I do want to come to the whole question of sort of using
[4:24]royal privilege and palaces and and you know what what he had to offer but doesn't it also just make us reappraise
[4:33]the way the queen um the king uh and others in the royal household dealt with this all along. you know, as
[4:44]you say, there was a deal uh with with Virginia Gupy. There was an NDA. Um and and it it makes us wonder, you know, to
[4:55]what extent were they just trying to protect themselves and the institution? And to what extent were they actually trying to do something about the truth
[5:05]and the behavior? >> Well, I think it's clear that Andrew lied to everybody. I mean, let's just think of those statements he put out saying he was at a he I think he said,
[5:16]"I'm at a loss to understand Mr. Epstein's lifestyle." I mean, lifestyle, it's not. >> Can you just blame Andrew is my point. >> No, I if I could interrupt there perhaps. I don't think you can. I mean, the royal family have known about this
[5:26]for years and had the opportunity to deal with it years ago. So, this is this is an accident that's been waiting to happen and I think they need to be held responsible. Uh, I think also the Met
[5:36]now need to look at the um their case again. It's very clear that women were trafficked to Andrew uh and they need to reopen their investigation. But I do think they're big questions for the palace. They haven't handled this at all. Well,
[5:48]>> Kate, >> I think this is true. I think that the palace were obviously I mean I feel that Andrew did lie to them but and constantly thought he was innocent. I mean let's just think about when we was
[6:00]the juke of judges of Kent's funeral last year. He was cozing up to William. He was trying to talk to William and William was trying to get away from him. Andrew simply, I think we can say this, didn't believe he's guilty of anything.
[6:11]He thought he was, he's just simply thought he was just absolutely innocent. And some members of the royal family clearly bought that. And yet it was a total total lie. And we have the whole
[6:23]case of paying Miss Jafrey for her for, you know, the the the settlement we believe is $12 million simply. And and also the fact that Andrew kept saying he was going to speak to authorities,
[6:35]didn't he? over and over again he's going to speak to authorities and then the American authorities actually came out and said no no no he's just giving us the runaround and this is the question I think that we now have is
[6:44]Andrew going to speak to authorities >> I think my question go it kind of goes to that place where nobody dares go which is
[6:53]>> you know to what extent was the queen complicit in hiding the truth and trying to cover this up
[7:03]>> well she was I mean you know I've got plenty of testimony from people who went and complained to the queen and were sent away. >> This the significance of that is really deep, isn't it? Because so far this has
[7:14]been a story about one bad apple uh in the royal family and how damaging it is to all the other honorable members. Most
[7:23]honorable of course the queen, the late queen. Um but that it it forces us to think about this differently. >> I was vilified when I said that back in August. No one believed me. Charles was
[7:35]also in a position of power in the last few years of the queen's reign when he could have handled this. Um, but I I agree it it it does call if this isn't a moment for the for the monarchy to make
[7:46]itself fit for purpose to actually modernize and adapt to a modern society or it can continue to bury its head in the sands and actually just lead to its own decline. >> Are you sure it can? It's not too late.
[7:58]>> I think there are opportunities there if we have more parliamentary scrutiny. I think if William actually in the younger generation who I think realize the reputational damage that's been done, uh I think they need to look at a whole
[8:08]series of things. I mean, we've got a number of royal palaces that are empty. Uh we've got art treasures and not seen. There's a whole there needs to be a lot of sort of slightly thinking outside the
[8:18]box here to win back the trust and respect of the public because at the moment that contract has been broken. >> Kate, do you think it's possible? I think it's possible, but I think yes,
[8:28]there has to be transparency and there has to be a question of whether or not Andrew is going to testify. There has been this story just recently that a woman has said that she was sent to
[8:40]Buckingham Palace. Now, that I think is particularly serious suggestion that Andrew had women or well a woman and that maybe there were others sent to him in Buckingham Palace because obviously,
[8:51]you know, they would have been waved through by security. it would have been aware aware they were there and first of all Miss Shafrey wanted the Met Police to investigate the fact that she'd been trafficked to Andrew in London and just
[9:02]as Andrew was saying there about the Met Police you know there was first of all Miss Shafrey wanted the Met police to investigate the fact that she'd been trafficked to Andrew in London that
[9:13]investigation didn't happen the suggestion that Andrew had asked his royal protection officer to go and find Muay's social security number and um you know so that he can try and dig up dirt
[9:23]on These are really serious uses of royal privileges. And if there's a suggestion that other royal residences were used for Andrew to and ex Epstein obviously visited Andrew at various
[9:35]royal residences if there were women sent there as well. I mean that's very serious for me you know as a woman looking at these some of these pictures. I mean the women are girls are so young.
[9:45]They're so young. And I think of Miss Chafrey saying that Andrews always wanted women to be thin. He always kept them on very um hardcore diets. They are these women seem so young, so
[9:56]vulnerable. I mean very very young. And the fact was that if they are being they were being trafficked by Epstein and if there are women being trafficked to royal palaces that is I mean that's
[10:07]that's a very very distressing allegation. >> Yes. I mean Andrew Lani I mean this is not the first time we've heard an allegation u of women being brought to
[10:18]Andrew. um you know in in a royal uh building uh and we haven't had a official denial or anything of this
[10:27]particular latest allegation but but as Kate points out what what it raises is this whole question of to what degree uh
[10:36]people working in the royal household facilitated or turned a blind eye or didn't think this was wrong and should be reported to the police. Well, I think
[10:48]some people did try and report it. I mean, people I mean, PPOs who tried to report it found themselves threatened with being put back on the beat in Brixton. We had members of staff making complaints. I mean, one of them told me
[11:00]the other day that Sarah Ferguson was still bringing her laundry into Windsor um to be done and she complained and was told by the head of household should be allowed. >> That's slightly lower order, isn't it? It's lower order, but they've been
[11:11]entertaining also business figures with whom they were doing business until quite recently uh and using royal palaces to to basically promote their own business interests. We've seen in
[11:20]the the the the uh revelations that various uh tours were being offered to various people as part of it. So, they've kind of just treated all these royal palaces as their as their as their
[11:32]places to to play >> as transactional. >> Yeah. Um, Kate, I mean, is that is that an entirely new thing or is that the way
[11:42]it's always worked? You know, that that being royal um means that you have these sort of privileges and access to things
[11:51]that you can dangle in front of people you want on your side and and that it might not always be for nefarious purposes, but that's what you've got as
[12:01]a royal. And and so it's not surprising that they were using it in this way because because to some degree they all use it for for what they want whether
[12:13]it's charitable work or or anything else. Yes, Krishna, as you say, charitable work. This is what the royals as patrons, that's the benefit. That's one of the great benefits is that there can be receptions at the palace and meetings
[12:24]at the palace. And we all knew that Andrew used to sort of exploit the palace in terms of pitch at the palace in his businesses, but I think the fact that women, not only he's having Epstein
[12:36]over for tea and meeting up, but also the women might have been trafficked to Royal Lodge, that's where the woman said she was sent to, and other residences, I think is is is very serious. And yes,
[12:46]royals have always acted, you know, the 18th century with sense of entitlement, but uh but certainly I would say, you know, the royal George IV who was very entitled um you know, monarch would said
[12:57]that the women were consenting and this is a very different matter. You know, people say to me, oh, but you know, there's no crime that was done to Miss Shafrey because she was over 16. And I say that that's not the the point. The
[13:08]point is that she was trafficked and that's not consenting. That's why she wanted a police investigation into what happened between her and Andrew. And of course, Andrew said he never met her. The photo was photoshopped. All this
[13:19]sort of thing. And it was all made. It was all lies. And the fact is that Andrew has used his privilege in as all you know all royals do to forward their
[13:30]charity work, but he's used his privilege not for charity work, but for nefarious instances. Are are you at all surprised, Kate, that um somebody like
[13:40]Epstein wanted this sort of access? I mean, I I look at Epstein and I think, well, here's this billionaire and he flies around the world and he mixes with
[13:50]the most famous rich people in the world who are, you know, genuine achievers and have done things and built business empires and all the rest of it. Wh why
[14:00]did he want to hang out with um Andrew Mountbatton Windsor or Prince Andrew as he was? >> Well, there have been lots of there have been lots of allegations, haven't there
[14:10]about where Epstein's money came from, and there have been various articles in the Sunday newspapers over the weekend about where the money came from, what he was you using footage for. Probably
[14:20]can't say them too clearly here, but they are. But I think you know where Epstein's money came from is a very mysterious issue where he accelerated into this very rich man. He clearly was
[14:30]seen as a fixer by the innocent people who by by people we might say were innocent who went to Epstein Island went to his house. They clearly thought he was a fixer who could introduce him to various people. But there are clearly
[14:42]people uh who are being who I think he's getting photos of he's getting information of. There have been various girl young women said they were sent to men for in and of extracting
[14:53]information. I think Epstein was a man who you used everyone he came in contact with. And that's not to say that any of these men are victims or survivors at
[15:04]all. He used people and he used people because there are ways that he could use them as sort of balance for his influence. But also I think he was getting information on them and I think
[15:14]he was using this information and I think that according to some Sunday Sunder newspapers he was selling this information as well. >> Um Andrew I mean do do you have any
[15:23]sense of what it was that the then Prince Andrew really had to offer something like >> access to the queen. The queen was the ultimate trophy. Uh and so he was hoping
[15:33]that he would it gave him credibility. He was just a boy from Brooklyn and to be able to have pictures of him at Balmor Moral uh pictures of him with Andrew gave him a cudos with other
[15:44]people. But Kate is right. He operated he traded information. He traded blackmail uh material. It was all part of a huge ecosystem. He traded information with intelligence services.
[15:55]Um and um Andrew was a very useful way into some of these useful contacts. Let's talk briefly about um Sarah Ferguson as well because I mean the the
[16:05]emails if true are truly humiliating. >> Yes. I mean I'm pray that's what Sarah Ferguson is like. Uh and um you know you can't believe a thing she says. I mean she clearly kept IAT discovered she was
[16:16]still in touch with staying at properties years after she had uh supposedly cut off contact. But you know in the way she hung on to Andrew because
[16:25]he was a sort of uh useful gravy train. Same with Epste. I mean, she accuses Epste of using her as a way of getting to Andrew. >> Yes, that's not true. I mean, you know,
[16:36]the point is I mean that that he was Epstein was paying a lot of Fergie's debts and um that's why she had to keep in with him. >> But again, the tone and obviously we don't we still don't know in truth
[16:48]whether these are definitely true. We haven't had a denial. Um the tone of it suggests she wanted some sort of relationship with Epstein. I mean, she she I mean, I presume she was joking,
[16:59]but she sort of says something about, well, you know, you could marry me. >> Yes. I mean, Sarah Ferguson, I mean, it's part of the her style, but she she certainly had relationships with many of
[17:10]her her financial backers, so that doesn't surprise me what's what at all. I mean, you say there'd be no denials, but actually these disclosures back up what I had in my research, much of which
[17:20]wasn't used in the book because we uh wasn't believed at the time. I had a lot of material, for example, on Peter Mandlesson. So, I mean, what for me is gratifying is that this disclosure has
[17:30]uh backed up the the the separate research I did with my sources. >> So, how how much damage has she done or is she sort of separate because she's Sarah Ferguson, she's not really royal. >> I think she's she's done less damage
[17:42]because uh she wasn't abusing the her position as a as a taxpayer funded civil servant, which is what he was doing. Uh but yeah, clearly it's embarrassing. I mean, it's embarrassing the royal family
[17:52]embraced her again. King uh Prince Philip got the measure of her and kept her out. Uh I think the royal family kind of felt she was better inside the tent than out of it. But you know she's now all sorts of rumors that she's
[18:04]trying to sell stories. She's trying to get some sort of stipend because she has no other way of earning a living at the moment. >> Yeah. I mean to what extent do they need the money? >> Well, they live very extravagantly. I
[18:15]mean they had a staff of about 30 three chauffeers. So they they went through this money very very quickly. Um u so I don't think they they are poor now. I think
[18:26]>> what I mean is is it that they they were not given enough uh by you know to to live a a royal life. >> Oh, they were given plenty and I mean >> and therefore needed to go and raise more.
[18:37]>> No, they just they were just very greedy. Greedy and needy is the way that people describe Sarah Ferguson. Uh and one of the reasons that she wasn't given a huge sum at the divorce settlement because they thought she would go through it. The queen bailed her out
[18:48]several times to the tune of many millions of pounds until she got fed up. So, I I don't think it's a shortage of money that that they they just lived so extravagantly that they were just going
[18:58]to burn through this money. But, you know, they've got plenty of money. Nothing is now said about the 4 million pound house in Belgravia that she's just sold. Uh there was money made when they sold a Swiss chalet a few years ago. Uh
[19:10]he's on record as making 3.8. He didn't get the money in the end, but could have taken 3.85 million on a um a commission in for a Greek water company. He's we're not dealing with small sums and those
[19:21]sums are there. He earned money from a trust income. Uh he's continued to do business in the last few years in the Middle East under the radar. Um so there's no problem with money there. They just don't like spending their own money.
[19:31]>> Kate, I mean you you've mentioned some past historical precedent. I mean to what extent is this always the way um some royals have behaved and that it's
[19:41]just incompatible with a modern world of modern media and uh and social media and uh you know exposees Well, we do have a modern world, a
[19:53]modern media, and we also have a sense in which the monarchy was really being refigured in terms of being a civil servant. That was very much the message of her majesty. Her first speech, you
[20:05]know, her first major speech when she was 21 was, I I will dedicate my life to serving you. And her and her letter in 2022 at her her jubilee was a signed off
[20:15]your servant. So this idea that the monarchy are civil servants is very much one that the monarchy are moving forth with. But obviously what they've got that totally undermines that is the fact that this senior member of the royal
[20:27]family is doing everything opposite to serving the populace. He's doing the absolute opposite. He is using his at the very best, you might say. He's using his contacts to make himself huge
[20:39]amounts of money with very um dubious uh businessmen a lot of the time, but also exploiting it in in these very in these sort of terrible examples being involved with Epstein, being being involved in
[20:51]the exploitation of these poor suffering young women who have been through horrific amounts of of, you know, of horror really. And I think that's what we really have to think about is that
[21:02]there's been a more documents have been released as Andrew says more documents are going to be released and is it going to lead to anything because these young women these survivors are being
[21:12]revictimized and all of them a lot of them have said we don't want to come out and speak because we've seen what happened to Virginia. We don't want to say more because you are destroyed. Is this going to lead anywhere or is this
[21:24]just revictimizing the victims? More information because what we are seeing is is is at the moment I'm not excusing Elaine Maxwell. It's terrible what she
[21:33]did but at the moment Epstein is dead in prison and the only person in prison for all of this is is a woman is Gileain Maxwell. So where what happens next?
[21:43]>> Andrew finally I mean can you actually see uh Andrew Manbat and Windsor testifying? I mean, we've seen how hopeless he is in interview. >> He he's not going to go and testify to
[21:54]the Senate. I mean, he's spent the last 15 years avoiding uh saying anything. He never responds to anything. Uh I think the only way that he's going to uh speak is if PC Plaude comes and knocks on his
[22:05]front door. Uh and that's what needs to happen. The Met need to now investigate him. And there's always been this trope in the royal family and the crown brought it out between public duty and
[22:14]private pleasure. Uh, and as Kate says, this is on the unfortunate private pleasure bit. >> And do you think the Met is genuinely free to investigate him? I mean, you know, I think a lot of people kind of
[22:25]assume this is the kind of thing that just can't happen. >> Well, I mean, we can had King Juan Carlos of Spain uh had to flee to Dubai because of corruption charges. We've had
[22:34]the um crown princess of Norway's uh son uh who's now up on charges of rape. So, think these things can happen. But I think it is important uh that we stress
[22:44]that there's the the royals are not above the law uh and that there does need to be a proper investigation and he does need to answer these charges.
[22:52]>> Kate, um h how do you see this possibly playing out? I mean, it it's inconceivable, isn't it, that uh Andrew
[23:03]does actually testify, whether it's by video link or any other way to US Congress. It is very I mean very very unlikely. I mean let's remember Krishnan that he
[23:15]thought that that interview with Emily Mateless had gone marvelously in 2019. He was very pleased with it. He thought he def he defended himself very well. I
[23:23]mean he simply is in a dream world about what constitutes responsibility, what constitutes criminal responsibility. And so his advisers have done everything to
[23:35]stop him from testifying. He said he would, he didn't. And of course the pressure is going to be put on him. So I think unless he is compelled he won't do it. But the question of him being
[23:46]compelled I think is one about public opinion because people might increasingly say yes as Andrew was saying are royals above the law because many of the rest of us would have been hauled in by the police for similar
[23:58]matters such as this. And that is the question. I think if public opinion starts to swell, I think the government will will consider about whether or not the Metropolitan Police need to look
[24:09]again at questions about what happened to Miss Shafrey um in Yel Maxwell's house, the invest that being asked to police detective what Andrew asked him
[24:18]to do because the simple fact is that um Andrew, you know, he he denies that anything has gone wrong. He denies any wrongdoing whatsoever, but the evidence
[24:30]is mounting and it seems to be that there's just going to be more evidence when more and more of these documents come out. They're going to be much more damning. And the fact is that Epstein is
[24:41]dead. We can't question him. But what I do wonder is that perhaps more and more survivors might come through. I think they've been I I sus my suspicion is they've been silenced by NDAs. But
[24:52]whether or not more and more survivors might come through might speak out and that when we have more survivors speaking out, I think that could be very very damning and the swell of public
[25:03]opinion will make it seem as if Andrew people will actually he'll actually be forced to answer questions. >> Right. But but but do you do you do you
[25:12]think it is it is possible that forcing Andrew to answer police questions about his behavior would be the thing that saves the monarchy and enables it to get through
[25:24]this or would it not just seal its fate and and finish it for good? >> I think Krishnan I think you've hit the nail on the head there. That is the question that the monarchy is going to
[25:34]and the advisers are going to be asking themselves in in future years. they're in in the sort of years to come. Uh Charles's advisers, Williams advisers are going to be saying what is the best
[25:45]thing to to sort of cover it up and hope it brushes under the carpet or is sunlight the best disinfectant? Is it we supposed to put it all out there? Put all the information out there. And really, I think what we might see under
[25:57]William is that more of a cutting off with Andrew. But of course, the question is, you know, I think many of us suspect that Andrew won't stay long in Norfolk. he might go to another country. So
[26:09]there's going to be more complicated questions if he's not in Britain anymore and questioning is want to is wanting to put to him. But I think you know the as Andrew was saying the monarchy so far
[26:20]have been hoping that they can kind of kick the can down the road and it'll go away. But you know, as I think in terms of the public, in terms of the newspapers, if the pressure is kept up,
[26:31]then eventually it really will seem to the monarchy as if Andrew must be made to answer these questions. >> Kate Williams, Andrew Lonnie, thank you both very much indeed for joining us.
[26:42]And that's the forecast for today. Bye-bye.