[0:00]Could this be the last formal appearance of Prince Andrew in public? Or at least one where he is so close to both the crown and the heir? In September at the
[0:10]funeral of the Duchess of Kent, Andrew was still using his title, the Duke of York, still a member of the Order of the Garter. Now he's relinquished those titles. A
[0:21]prince cut loose due to his relationship with the convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, detailed in a new book. We were just another toy to be passed around and that's what they did.
[0:33]>> The postumous memoir of Virginia Roberts Juprey is published tomorrow. She was trafficked by Epstein and allegedly forced to have sex with Prince Andrew.
[0:43]She took her own life this year. >> Her allegations are not new, but her memoir will reveal distressing details about her life. And this is a story that
[0:54]goes back two decades. Robert Jafrey claims she was introduced to Prince Andrew by Epstein's accomplice, Gileain Maxwell, in 2001 and was forced to have sex with him. She was 17 at the time.
[1:05]She alleges they met two other times. Prince Andrew has always strenuously denied these accusations and says he never even met her. In 2008, Epstein is
[1:15]found guilty of soliciting underage sex. Andrew claims he severs all ties with him in 2010. In February 2011, this picture of Andrew with Robert Jafrey is
[1:26]published. And a day later, Andrew emails Epstein saying, "Keep in close touch and we'll play some more soon." In 2014, Robert Jafrey first alleges abuse
[1:36]by Andrew in US court. And the next year, the Metropolitan Police interviews her about the alleged assault in London, but they decide not to investigate. In 2019, Epstein is arrested on new sex
[1:48]trafficking charges and later takes his own life. The Met Police reopens its case following his death, but again decide not to investigate. This is also when Prince Andrews speaks with BBC News
[1:59]Night and denies having sex with or remembers ever meeting Roberts Juprey. Two years later, she files a civil lawsuit against the prince. That year, Channel 4 News also reports claims from
[2:11]six women who make allegations against Epstein and Maxwell in the UK. The Met police look again and again say they will not investigate. Maxwell is
[2:21]sentenced to prison in the US at the end of that year. In 2022, Andrew reaches a financial settlement with Robert Stufrey, but makes no admission of liability. He stops using the title His
[2:33]Royal Highness. But with this memoir, yet more questions about Andrew's actions as well as that of the police. The Mets say they are now actively looking at claims that back in 2011 when
[2:44]the photo with Robert Jafrey was published, Andrew asked his police protection officer to obtain personal information on her. And Channel 4 News has calculated that between 1997 and
[2:54]2012, Epstein's private jet flew in and out of UK airports on more than 50 separate occasions. Will this be investigated, too? The chickens are
[3:05]perhaps beginning to come home to roost as more and more evidence emerges of the extent to which he may have not just potentially been involved in the abuse
[3:15]and trafficking allegations, but in in using his access to resources such as police protection officer to ensure that
[3:25]he remains protected. Regarding Epstein, the Met Police has always said it was clear that any investigation would largely involve activities outside of the UK. Therefore,
[3:36]it was not appropriate for them to investigate. There are still questions for the royal family, too. Why allow the drip drip of Andrew slowly and voluntarily losing title after title?
[3:47]Some politicians are calling for them to be formally removed by Parliament. >> Take them off him. This is a man who said that he wanted to play some more with a convicted international notorious
[3:58]pedophile. In in what world is he able to to keep those titles? >> The memoir could have implications in the US too given Epstein was formerly a friend of President Trump and he's been
[4:10]criticized for his handling of files related to the convicted pedophile. Robert Jeff Fray's book looks set to draw attention away from the king's visit this week to the Vatican where he
[4:21]will become the first British monarch to pray with the pope since the reformation. They will do so in the cyine chapel beneath the famous ceiling and in front
[4:31]of Michelangelo's the last judgment. The king will know a definitive end to Prince Andrew's scandal is far from over. >> Kieran Roodley reporting. Well, earlier
[4:41]I spoke to Virginia Roberts Jafrey's brother Sky Roberts and his wife Amanda and I began by asking them for their reaction amid a week when Prince Andrew has relinquished his titles.
[4:53]>> Yeah. Um I think it's you know the best way to put it is over the last couple of weeks we've had a lot of happy tears and a lot of sad tears because
[5:03]we've had a many moments where she's been vindicated. It is really really difficult to come forward but um she would be she'd be really proud of this moment. It's a very vindicating moment
[5:14]for her. >> She suffered a great deal throughout her life. That is clear. One of the things that has struck me endlessly about this story is there's so much talk about how
[5:24]rich Jeffrey Epstein was, all his friends, the private planes, the private island, the fancy houses. It's a world that, you know, awful connotations of
[5:36]glamour in this context, all details that hide the brutal reality of what was happening. We get caught up in the salaciousness of of survivors
[5:46]naming names. So many people critiqued these girls for saying, you know, they could have just left and and you know, they received money so and and it was
[5:56]lavish and that salaciousness of it, but it was abuse. It was coercive control. It was intimidation. It was threats to their lives. It was violent.
[6:06]>> They were just girls and they were begging the world to believe them and fight for them. >> And you absolutely get the sense
[6:15]that she was begging for accountability, for people to take responsibility. And not only did the individuals fail to take responsibility, but the
[6:27]organizations, the structures around them in too many instances didn't force anyone to take responsibility. I think with this Jeffrey Epstein Galain
[6:37]Maxwell case and why it's so strong and why people care about this case so much. It's it's not just about the ab abuse of children which is
[6:48]heinous. But it also shows the exposure of systems that have said for far too long there is one set of laws for the rich and powerful and then there is
[6:59]another set of laws for those who aren't. And it really is that exposure of the abuse of power of of the abuse of the rich and powerful. The lengths that
[7:09]they went to intimidate these girls to discredit them to defame them threatening their lives. It makes you angry. We have to do better. We have to go after legislation and we have to
[7:20]expose those who have been abusing their positions for far too long. Now, obviously, we got the announcement last week that Prince Andrew has voluntarily
[7:30]agreed to give up his royal titles. Is this in your view enough or should this actually be the beginning of a new process to look at again at his involvement with Epstein?
[7:42]>> They're kind of starting to take some sort of action to that. Now, you know, he he didn't do himself any favors by any means, especially with um you know,
[7:51]commenting uh in 2018 that uh you know, he had ceased contact and then in 2011 we've got this uh set of emails that are released that essentially say we'll play
[8:01]again soon and we're in this together, right? So, do I think it's enough? No, absolutely not. I think we have a lot of work to do. I can hear my sister saying that she she would not stop here. There
[8:12]is more work to do and there's more people that are complicit here, not just Prince Andrew, but so many others that we need to be held to account. >> And I want to ask you a couple of things
[8:22]about about potential justice, potential more potential accountability. First of all, though, if you don't mind, he has voluntarily given up these
[8:32]titles. They He wasn't forced, although there's discussions in the background, reports that the king did try to force his hand. Should the king strip him of
[8:43]the title of prince, do you think? >> I think yes. I think again it's it's just it's not enough. Survivors have been living in the shadows with this
[8:54]trauma that has happened to them. They haven't been able to heal for so long. When do we actually start to see repercussions that that really affect him? Um, you know, the royal family
[9:06]needs to really go further on this. There's a discussion now about whether the British Parliament could change the law so it would make it easier for the
[9:15]king to formally remove the titles that Andrew has only voluntarily um agreed not to use. But senior members of our government are saying this is not an
[9:25]issue for parliament. We would be led by the monarchy. Is that disappointing to you? >> Yes. I mean, I think anytime you you put obstacles in place that would
[9:35]essentially be able to bring people to justice, that is absolutely um unfortunate. It's a dis it's a disj disj justice to the people of the UK. It's a
[9:45]disjustice to survivors out there um of Jeffrey Epstein, Glain Maxwell amongst many others. So yes, I I would say it's very disappointing that any form of
[9:56]government, including the US. We have our own work to do here, would put any obstacles in place to bring any of these men, women, powerful figures to account. >> It has emerged that the Metropolitan
[10:08]Police here are now looking into these claims. I know you've heard them, that Prince Andrew asked his police protection officer to try to uncover information about Virginia. What did you
[10:19]think when you heard this? It wasn't so much a shock to be quite honest. I think you know Virginia had been saying it for so long that people had tried to intimidate her and this is exactly what
[10:30]she's been screaming for decades. >> And it's interesting the lengths that the the prince appeared to go to. He managed to get her social security number to ask his close protection officer to gather information about
[10:42]Virginia. All of this about a young woman he would later say he had no recollection of ever meeting. >> His actions are speaking louder than words. and she would be coming forward
[10:52]fully vindicated right now saying do you see I told you the entire time and now the world is starting to believe because you know there's this slow trickle of information including you know what you
[11:03]had just stated about obtaining I mean why would you want to obtain somebody's social security or or you know information if they're if they if in one way shape or form you weren't
[11:14]potentially complicit. We know now that the Met police are investigating this idea that he asked his personal protection officer to investigate
[11:23]Virginia as far as we can see. Do you have confidence in the Met Police to do this properly? I I don't live in the UK. I can't say that I know their everyday
[11:34]workings. What I can say is that this is this is a global cover up and abuse of systematic power that we've seen over and over. I know
[11:46]that currently right now we're extremely let down by our own government and they have the key to a lot of information.
[11:56]What I what I feel is happening right now is so much evidence and this is just one fraction of it, but it's inescapable. You'll know, of course,
[12:07]that Virginia did first speak to the Metropolitan Police in London as far back as May 2015. They decided not to continue with any investigation. They reviewed that again
[12:17]in 2019, deciding again not to investigate. Another complaint comes forward in 2021. They decide not to investigate. That year, our program handed them
[12:29]Virginia's civil claim. They decided not to investigate. Is it time for them to review those decisions, do you think?
[12:38]>> 100%. What else does it have to take? I think the cost of proof is too high for these survivors. And we've seen that over and over again. It doesn't matter
[12:49]who is being implicated. There is no separate law for those in power >> and and if the Metropolitan Police don't investigate or or or review their decisions, there is a police a police
[13:01]watchdog here. Do you think they must step in and say to the Met, we're going to look at those decisions you took in the light of what is coming forward now?
[13:11]>> Absolutely. I think it's very similar to what's happening here in the US. the Department of Justice decided that there was no credible information when we know
[13:20]that that's far from the truth. And then our House of Representatives and our Senate decided to take it a step further
[13:28]and subpoena documents. And so every branch of government needs to take this seriously. If one door closes and you have the opportunity to reopen that
[13:40]door, you should take it upon yourself to do that. And Sky, can I ask you? Virginia's story, like the story of so many abuse victims, is littered with
[13:52]being gaslit by individuals who don't take responsibility by the organizations that don't force them to take accountability.
[14:01]How hard was that for Virginia to go to the Met Police say here in the UK and constantly have them say, "We're not
[14:12]going to investigate." Do you think that did take a toll on her >> by continuously being gaslit by the UK government, the UK Metropolitan Police,
[14:22]the US government here? I mean, she was incredibly hurt by the sweetheart deal that Jeffrey Epstein was given um by Alex Aosta. I mean, it was a a kick. It
[14:32]was just a kick in the stomach to her. And I know this is difficult, but watching her get knocked back after knockback, what do you think that did to
[14:41]her personally? >> I think it's the story of a lot of survivors out there that they constantly feel like they're getting these wins,
[14:53]these little wins, and then there's just this big knock from the side. I think it took a tremendous toll on her through time. I will say during the last couple weeks of her life, I was with her. Um,
[15:04]she was really proud. She was really proud of her survivor sister. She was really proud of what she was able to accomplish accomplish with Gla Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. And I hope her kids can see their mom for what she truly is,
[15:16]which is an international and an American hero. And >> and that pride she felt in those last weeks. Did you get any sense that it was
[15:26]in any way it was outweighed by the toll that everything else had taken on her? I do think her body took and her mind took a very large toll through the years. Um
[15:36]but she had a lot of personal tolls in her personal life um towards the end there um that I think led to the ultimate decision of her taking her life.
[15:47]>> We've got evidence from court papers that show lawyers sent a letter to Prince Andrew asking him to cooperate. The letter was FedEx to Buckingham Palace. The palace refused delivery. Do
[15:58]they owe you? Do they owe Virginia's legacy in terms of doing more now because of that?
[16:07]>> Absolutely. I think they owe answers at the very least. I think they owe not just Virginia, but but the UK people and
[16:18]and answer the questions that have been asked of them for decades. They owe Virginia that for sure and they owe their people that. And what does accountability in the US look like? What
[16:30]exactly is it that you need to see? >> Well, real accountability here is first getting all all documents released, allowing the redactions of the names for
[16:40]people specifically survivors and then the unredaction of names for anybody that could be complicit. And then what we need to do from there, we got to take these in steps, right? So first step,
[16:51]release the documents. Second step, we need to take it. We need to take it further and fully investigate anybody that was on the flights in the logs. There was a movement of money, video,
[17:02]evidence of you potentially being in that room. And we need to hold them to the fullest extent of the law. We want we want to see every single person that was complicit in this sex trafficking ring held to account.
[17:13]>> Just very briefly, you talk about flights and flight logs. We know that flights went in and out of the UK, not just in London. Would you like to see
[17:22]those flights fully investigated? >> Yes. Th this is an international investigation that needs to take place. And if the UK is safeguarding any type
[17:33]of information that could be valuable to the public, to the FBI, which I think they probably already have, then you know, then shame shame on our government. Shame on our government for
[17:44]safeguarding and and being the fact that it's taken this long to even really start this conversation is a bit of is an injustice to the survivors. But be
[17:53]very very mindful that we will not stop until justice is served. My sister was very clear about that. That rings in our head every day. >> What is your message to President Trump on this?
[18:05]>> Remember that you were elected for this position. This is not a party issue. It's not a political toy that you or
[18:14]your min administration can dangle. You promised from the very beginning of your campaign and even your last presidency that you
[18:25]would be a president that was going to drain the the swamp, that was going to uncover corruption. This is one of the biggest cases of corruption and we are
[18:36]asking you to do the right thing. Will you hold to your promise? And can I just ask, I know you said you'll keep fighting. Your sister fought
[18:46]for such a long time. The cost to you is already enormous in losing your sister. How do you feel about continuing that
[18:59]fight potentially for years going forward? My sister fought
[19:08]not want to be care not careful I want to be very clear here that the reason she fought it's very at a very human level it's very simple when she held her
[19:18]baby girl for the first time and she knew this could never happen
[19:25]again to her daughter to your daughters to your sisters it's a sex trafficking ring that essentially went on for
[19:35]decades without any account to any of these men, really any investigation as you've alluded to as well. And so we won't stop until justice is served.
[19:45]>> She has become she became such a public figure. How do you remember her privately as a family, as a sister, as a sister-in-law? I remember her as Joy.
[20:00]um in spite of everything that she had gone through in her life, she still had this capacity for joy and love in her life.
[20:10]>> I mean, Amanda said it great. I think she was just light. She was joy. She's my big sister. She, you know, we didn't sit around the family table talking
[20:20]about Epsteed and Maxwell. We we enjoyed time with each other. She always wanted to find the best in the world. I mean, even to some of her detriment, to be honest, she always wanted to see the good in people and not and not to hurt,
[20:32]right? She wanted to teach her daughter that there was good in this world. It wasn't all evil. >> And you clearly miss her very much. >> Yeah.
[20:41]>> Every day. Every day. Yeah. It's >> Sky and Amanda Roberts, thank you very
[20:50]much for talking to us today. >> Thank you. Prince Andrew has repeatedly denied all allegations against him. We approached
[21:00]the Metropolitan Police for a response and they reiterated that they are not the appropriate authority to investigate. We also asked Buckingham Palace, but have not yet received any response. And you can see the full
[21:12]interview with Sky and Amanda Roberts on tomorrow's episode of the forecast. You can watch it on our YouTube channel. It's also on Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts.
[21:22]Well, when Virginia Roberts Jafrey first made a complaint about Prince Andrew in 2015, a police investigation should have taken place, according to the former chief prosecutor at the Crown
[21:33]Prosecution Service, Nazir Absal. I spoke to Mr. Aal earlier and asked for his reaction to these latest developments. >> I remember back in 2015 asking for an
[21:44]investigation take place. Uh, as people know, there was a an inquiry into whether there ought to be an investigation. uh and the Met police decided there wouldn't be an investigation.
[21:55]>> I mean, you were pressing for that on what basis at that point? >> Uh because of what people were saying. I mean, obviously I'd just left prosecuting and I' it was one of those cases that I'd been familiar with or
[22:05]allegations I've been familiar with and I was concerned that um you know, as a I suppose, you know, speaking truth to power, but that was one of the reasons why nothing was being progressed. So, it was important to say something publicly on the matter. Then
[22:17]>> I mean the Met's constant argument seemed to be that most of the alleged offenses took place in the US. Was that ever an an acceptable argument?
[22:27]>> No, Jackie. 2003 is when the law changed um which allowed the UK authorities to prosecute offending carried out by alleged offending carried out by British
[22:37]citizens abroad. If you yourself don't feel able to investigate because all the witnesses are in a foreign country, you encourage the foreign country to carry out an investigation. None of this seems to be happening. There seems to be no
[22:48]dialogue on the subject. >> And and your feeling is it was because Prince Andrew was one of the people. >> I can't think of any other reason. Um you know, we we've said before that unless you prosecute or investigate the
[23:00]powerful, then everybody feels they can get away with um whatever it is that they get away with. I mean in you you talked about in 2021 this program found evidence at that stage there were half a
[23:11]dozen women who had been targeted by Epstein and Maxwell again the Met decided there should be no investigation. >> You said at the time it raised questions. How loud are those questions now as we know more and more?
[23:23]>> I mean it's uh it's the decibel rate is you know very high now. The clamor for an investigation is is just something that must happen.
[23:33]People are the level of confidence that what happens, Jackie, is if people don't see powerful people being investigated, it means that everybody thinks they can get away with it and victims will not come forward with it.
[23:44]>> We spoke to Virginia's family today and they felt the inaction by the Met over a decade essentially had a detrimental effect on her because as elsewhere she
[23:55]hadn't been taken seriously. If it was a factor in her deciding she could no longer go on, what would be the position for the Met then? People feel there's institutional bias here. Uh and
[24:06]the only way you can deal with institutional bias is transparency and there is a lack of transparency. >> But the families want the Met to answer questions about all those decisions they took because they believe it was detrimental to her mental health in
[24:16]>> and those questions need to be answered. >> But how is that done now? What would be the process? Would it be an internal review with the Met? At what point would the police watchdog get involved? >> Well, some the police watchdog should be involved already. I'll be honest with
[24:28]you. um the the the lack of transparency, the the fact that people feel that the whole thing is just not credible. Uh they should be proactive in this area and you know carrying out
[24:40]inquiry into what did or didn't happen. That's not happened. Um we there should be a clamor for it and you know maybe the home office should be asking the OPC to carry out this investigation. Uh if nobody else will.
[24:51]>> Is that how it would work? Would would it be enough say for the family to call or does does some other authority have to call for the >> the should do it themselves when they feel there is a something that
[25:02]potentially damages the credibility of the of a police institution? >> I mean we do know that the Met has become directly involved in all of this again following the release of these emails which show the the prince asking
[25:14]his public protection officer essentially to gather information on Virginia Jaffrey. I mean, what would be the potential area of concern here? Or would there be potentially an area of criminality?
[25:25]>> If people are doing favors uh for people in power, then that's misconduct in public office. Uh and that's a criminal offense. There is so much here that requires looking at and it it beggars
[25:36]belief that nobody's doing that. >> Nazaril, thanks very much for talking to us. >> You're welcome. Well, I also spoke to the government minister, Jackie Smith, and I started by
[25:45]asking her if MP should change the law to allow the king to remove all honors more easily. Well, look, what I think is important is that first of all, we bear in mind the
[25:57]victims of Jeffrey Epstein's horrible uh crimes and secondly, we recognize the decision made by the king in consultation with Prince Andrew that has
[26:08]removed his use of his uh titles, which we think is the right thing to do. >> I mean, he's voluntarily said he won't use the titles. Some MPs say we need to
[26:17]go further than that given the um seriousness of all of this that parliament should do something to allow the king to strip him of titles altogether.
[26:28]>> Well, if if the king who clearly has been very involved in this uh came to the government and asked us to do something like that, that would be a different issue and I think you know the
[26:38]king has been very involved. We should follow the lead of him and the royal family on this. >> Although Rachel Muscll, the MP for York Central, says it could be done by adding
[26:48]one sentence to a private members bill take up much much time. >> Rachel knows better than that that that things going through Parliament do take up time. They take up attention. And I
[26:58]I'm not convinced that Rachel and certainly I don't think this is uh the top priority for the things that we need to be dealing with at the moment. We put this point the the same point you're
[27:09]making the education secretary made this morning to Virginia Jafrey's family a short while ago. They said it was very disappointing that the government wouldn't move on this. That the government said that they would be led
[27:20]by the monarchy on this. They said it was disappointing that any government would put any obstacles in place >> to stop bringing any of these powerful figures to account to to to force them to take accountability.
[27:31]>> Well, that's something slightly different. Uh the decision has been made quite rightly by the royal family that that Prince Andrew isn't using his titles uh anymore. The point about uh
[27:41]accountability I think is one for for the justice system and I do think that everybody who can ensure that the victims get uh justice. I I obviously I think that's important. I think that's
[27:53]slightly different from whether or not simply to demonstrate that you're doing something. Parliamentary time should be used up for something that has already happened. Now, the Met over several years going back to 2015 looked at
[28:05]allegations revolving around Epstein and what he did or didn't do in this country. They looked at the direct allegations against Andrew himself and decided repeatedly not to investigate.
[28:16]With hindsight, does that look wrong to you now? >> Well, I don't think I can comment on what they did or did not believe that they had in terms of evidence, but certainly if there was evidence to be followed, then they should have followed it.
[28:28]>> Nazir Rafala, the former chief prosecutor, you'll know him very well. is best known for prosecuting child sexual offenders says that says indeed that the Met should definitely be forced to look at this again and maybe he said
[28:38]the home office should ask the IOPC the police watchdog to investigate if no one else will. >> It is important that where there is more investigation or more justice that can
[28:50]be provided for victims that anybody who is able to ensure that that happens should play a role in in doing that. But I think we need to focus less on what we
[29:01]think is newsworthy here and more on what we think would actually make a real difference to the victims. Baroness Smith, we'll have to leave it there. Thank you so much for talking to us. >> Thank you.