[0:00]It's been a week of drama in Washington over the Epstein files. The files relating to the convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Both houses of Congress say they want everything the Justice
[0:10]Department has that can be revealed to the American public to be revealed. Donald Trump says he'll go along with that. So, is he going to do enough now to heal the rift between himself and
[0:22]many members of his own support? Welcome to Americ Sarah here in the BBC's bureau in
[0:34]Washington. >> And it's Justin in the worldwide headquarter of American, England. >> And it is Mariana sitting next to Justin in the worldwide headquarters in London. >> We have so much to talk about in this episode, don't we, Justin? Mariana,
[0:46]because I think that this vote in Congress to force the release of the Epstein files is going to be one of the most momentous things that has happened in this first year of President Trump
[0:56]being back in office. It's it's huge news. People are fascinated, gripped by what's in the Epstein files. It's a moment of jeopardy for President Trump, who hasn't wanted to release them, and
[1:07]for many of the other people who may well be mentioned in them. But it's also the first time his congressional Republicans have stood up against him and they've won. So I think on many different levels, this is this is a
[1:18]really important story for us to dig into. >> Yeah, it's an interesting point that, isn't it? When you say stood up against him and won, he changed his mind, didn't he, at the last minute. So sort of said, "Go ahead and vote." But let's let's be
[1:29]absolutely clear. He did not want this vote to take place. They they delayed it, didn't they, Sarah? Quite considerably. They didn't want to hold it at first. They tried to find ways,
[1:38]procedural ways of not holding it. And in the end, only one uh member of the House of Representatives, guy called Klay Higgins. Do we know much about Klay Higgins, Sarah? We assume it was some
[1:50]sort of point of principle, was it? That led him to be the only vote in the whole House of Representatives against it. >> Yes. He says he is worried about the release of information in these files
[2:01]that could harm um victims um or um underage people that he thinks that there's stuff in there that shouldn't be made public because it it would be harmful to the people involved. But but
[2:13]let me walk you through how 427 other members of the House of Representatives all bar Klay Higgins ended up voting for this measure. So it's been wrangling on
[2:23]for months through Congress. you had um two congressmen, one Republican, one Democrat, had put together this petition that if they got enough representatives to sign, it would force a vote on the
[2:34]floor of the House. The speaker couldn't stop it. So, they had been gathering signatures for months. They had four Republicans on there and then they just needed one more name. Uh and then after
[2:45]a bi-election, another um Democratic Congresswoman was eventually um sworn in after the government shutdown came to an end. She added her name to the petition and that was it. There was going to be a
[2:56]vote on the floor of the House. Now, Donald Trump had really put a lot of pressure on those four Republicans to get them to remove their names from the petition. He even had one of them, Nancy Mace, not just into the White House,
[3:07]into the situation room to try and persuade her to remove her name from the petition. He couldn't do that. And this was barreling towards a vote which it was pretty clear he was going to lose.
[3:19]We were looking at dozens, possibly a hundred Republican representatives defying Donald Trump and voting to release the Epstein files. And they were doing that because their constituents
[3:30]will be furious with them if they voted to keep this stuff covered up given the promises so many of Republicans have made during election campaigns, saying they want the Epstein files out there.
[3:40]Then on Sunday at the last minute facing this rebellion, Donald Trump put on social media that he was in fact encouraging House Republicans to vote in favor of the release of the Epstein files. So they had permission to do so
[3:52]and as we say all Democrats, all Republicans bar um that one Klay Higgins voted in favor of releasing the Epstein files. Um and then the Senate actually
[4:02]agreed unanimously to pass this as well. So that means it's on its way to the president's desk. this bill that actually compels the Justice Department to release all the information. And
[4:13]Donald Trump did say on Monday, if it gets to his desk, he'll sign it. He hasn't yet, but that's what we're waiting for. >> Yeah. And some of the most vocal people understandably uh in calling for the vote and then also for the files to be
[4:24]released have been the survivors and their families, particularly um the family of Virginia Frey, who accused uh Jeffrey Epstein of of sexual abuse and took her own life earlier this year. and
[4:35]Sky Roberts um her brother told NBC News yesterday that it was time finally for accountability. >> It is going to go on President Trump's desk. I mean, we are we are very hopeful for that. Um but there's a lot of fight
[4:46]left because the first step in the healing journey or just in this journey of justice is acknowledgement first and then it's accountability. Once we do get the files released and we do uncover the names of some of the most rich and
[4:58]powerful politicians and financiers um and world leaders, I mean it's time to to hold them to account whether that's social justice or whether that's that's true justice which is which is
[5:09]our legal system. >> Now that's an important point that Sky Roberts made there which I think is worth stressing. People don't want these files released simply for um the salacious content in them or because it
[5:20]might be politically embarrassing to some high-profile people. They believe that some of Epstein's friends and associates who participated in the abuse of these young women are named in the files and that there might be enough
[5:31]evidence in there to prosecute them. Um and that's the reason that they're campaigning so hard for this. They want to see other abusers brought to justice and they think the route to that is um releasing these files and see seeing
[5:43]what information is in there. >> Yeah. And of course, as part of that, that's why prosecutors and lawyers for the abused women want former Prince
[5:53]Andrew to be part of this process, not because they necessarily think that he did anything wrong himself and he's always denied it, but because he might be a witness, because he might have been there at various stages, have seen
[6:04]various things, and it's been long been a demand of theirs, hasn't it? that he takes part now in a process that allows him to say on oath what he saw. And it
[6:15]won't stop with him, will it? That's the whole point, sir. Exactly. That that there are all sorts of other people who may now be called to testify because it will become obvious and publicly obvious
[6:25]that um that they were involved if not in any wrongdoing, then they actually were were there at a time when wrongdoing might might have happened. And that's important. >> That's right. the the congressional
[6:36]committee um looking into this really want um former Prince Andrew to come and speak to them and tell them who he saw um what he saw and some of the details
[6:46]around the parties and and social life of Jeffrey Epstein. But they can't compel him to come and give evidence. But if there are uh American citizens named in these files who it would appear
[6:57]might have valuable evidence, they could subpoena them and compel them to come before Congress. I know U-turns don't sort of exist in Donald Trump world. Um,
[7:06]but like the big question, what has gone on? Why? >> Well, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, Sarah? Whether or not it's a U-turn, it's absolutely unquestionably something
[7:17]he has been forced to do that he didn't seem to want to do. And that in Donald Trump world is unusual, isn't it? I mean, it really genuinely is. And forced to do it by Congress as well. And we've spent goodness knows how many months
[7:29]saying, "Where's Congress? What are they up to? Why aren't they doing X, Y, or Z? Why aren't they why don't they have a bigger role in the tariffs or a bigger role in this or or that? Well, suddenly here we are. They do have a big role,
[7:40]don't they? Because this essentially has been foisted on him. >> Yeah, absolutely. And by the four Republicans who um signed on to that um petition. So that's Thomas Massie who um
[7:51]along with Roana who's a Democrat um congressman um authored this bill. Um and then three probably of the most prominent MAGA women um Marjgerie Taylor
[8:00]Green, Lauren Boowbert and Nancy Mace were the other three who signed on and it did provoke the eye of Donald Trump. He has been lashing out against them. He's even been calling Marjgerie Taylor
[8:10]Green a traitor and she says that that's led to death threats against her and that she's worried about um violent attacks. I mean it's a real nasty spat
[8:20]right at the heart of MAGA. uh and it matters because we thought that these were three of the most loyal um of Donald Trump's representatives, but also
[8:29]they represent the MAGA constituency. And this is an issue which is actually, you know, it's driven right to the heart um of Donald Trump's supporters because a lot of them um as faithfully as they
[8:41]follow him and everything else really want these files published. And so it's led to a split in Congress, but also a split in his support as well. And I think it could go on to be really quite um important and meaningful.
[8:53]>> I think that's especially interesting that the you know the way that a lot of the pressure has come from within the the MAGA movement and we chatted on another episode of Americas have played particularly on sites like X
[9:07]actually which might be small but still has a kind of mighty impact in terms of political discourse and the ability of some of these influencers who have really really gone hard at Donald Trump about the Epstein files really wanted
[9:18]them released. um you know a lot of them post quite frequently about their concerns around um abuse of power and specifically abuse of power when it comes to um you know sexual abuse and
[9:28]sexual abuse of of minors. Um and so I think actually another thing as well aside from the Congress point which is an important point is that this shows that this kind of small but mighty very
[9:40]loud bunch of influencers on social media have also managed to basically direct the discourse and Donald Trump is slightly having to you know that's part of why this has become such a big deal as well not just the kind of political
[9:51]mechanisms >> they've got under his skin and it's not clear why is it I mean given that he says he he didn't like Epstein he fell out with him etc etc uh And there's no evidence again that Donald Trump has done anything wrong. But given all of
[10:02]those things are out there, he is weirdly affected by all of this. Weirdly and publicly and openly had this strange
[10:13]um uh interaction, didn't he, with a Bloomberg reporter, a woman called Katherine Lucy on Air Force One when she tried to ask him about all of the the
[10:23]files and and his own reaction to them and why they hadn't already been released. Let's listen to that. >> Jeffrey Epson and I had a word bad relationship for many years. Uh, but he
[10:35]also saw Skype because I was impressive. So, he dictated a couple of melons to himself. Give me a break. You're going to find out what did he know with respect to Bill Clinton, with respect to
[10:46]the head of Harvard, with respect to all of those people that he knew, including JP Morgan. Yes. Go ahead. Venezuelan.
[11:00]>> Yeah. So, if you didn't quite um catch that there, that was um the reporter Katherine Lucy trying to ask if there's nothing incriminating in the files, why not just release them? And he interrupted her to say, "Quiet, quiet
[11:11]piggy." Um which is uh pretty disgusting remark um to make towards anyone, particularly um a female reporter on Air Force One with him there. But it also
[11:21]shows you how deeply this has got under his skin. He hates being asked about the Epstein files. He doesn't like talking about them full stop. But he also thinks it's distracting from the wider agenda
[11:31]that instead of talking about what he says are his great successes in office, he's being constantly berated with questions about the Epstein files. And it happened again in the Oval Office on Tuesday when he was welcoming the Saudi
[11:43]crown prince Muhammad bin Salman. He was asked by Mary Bruce of ABC about the Epstein files and that turned into a really nasty exchange. >> Mr. Mr. President, why wait for Congress to release the Epstein files? Why not just do it now?
[11:55]>> You know, it's not the question that I mind. It's your attitude. I think you are a terrible reporter. Uh it's the way you ask these questions. You start off
[12:05]with a man who's highly respected asking him a horrible uh insubordinate and and just a terrible question. And you could even ask that same exact question
[12:16]nicely. You're all psyched. somebody psyches you over at ABC, they're going to psych it. Uh, you're a terrible person and a terrible reporter.
[12:27]>> Just to kind of address that why it bothers him so much question and and as ever, we can't get inside his head and know exactly why. Although, like you say, Sarah, you know, the the distraction point I think probably makes
[12:37]sense. What I would say from looking certainly at the kind of social media world that Donald Trump has so effectively harnessed over many years, including during his first presidency, is that themes around sort of the
[12:48]corrupt elites and powerful people doing bad things, abusing their power, and particularly around sort of the issue of, you know, pedophiles and sexual abuse. Those have been such powerful
[12:59]topics within those circles. And Donald Trump has actually succeeded in pointing his finger at many enemies by kind of sending them in that direction and saying, "Look, look, look, these people are really bad people who do bad
[13:09]things." Um, and so I think that that, you know, this is we've spoken about it before, but this is sort of where like those kinds of conspiracy theories which make up a kind of section of the MAGA
[13:21]support kind of bite back. And um but then also I guess the other thing people are talking about is well is there is it because he's worried about something that's going to be going to be released in the files and that's obviously been
[13:32]the kind of question on everyone's lips you know very specifically is there something really embarrassing >> and I suppose on that Sarah what what the question now is what does he do about all of this when it comes to
[13:42]actually in practical terms letting people have access to information and we've had a question good question I think from someone called Derek who's got in touch with us to say could Trump avoid embarrassing disclosures by simply
[13:54]classifying such embarrassing material. How would anyone know? Surely in the context of Trump pushing the legality to the limits, uh lawmakers are alive to this. Are steps being taken even to
[14:05]prevent it? Sarah, >> we know that Donald Trump thinks that he can classify material simply by thinking about it because that was a famous statement that he gave when he was being asked about all of those um classified
[14:16]documents he'd taken from the White House and that the FBI found stored at Mara Lago whilst he was um out of office. But uh but yeah, but but that aside, um frankly, I don't know. But I mean, I think it would be very difficult
[14:27]to say that something that was just embarrassing about Republican politicians or rich donor friends of his made it into classified information. Now, what they might be able to do is
[14:38]refuse to release some information if it might jeopardize an ongoing investigation. And just a few days ago, to try and distract from some of this, Donald Trump specifically ordered the
[14:48]Justice Department to investigate um some well-known Democrats and their links to Epstein. So, former President Bill Clinton, um Larry Summers, former Treasury Secretary and President of
[14:58]Harvard, who um served in Democrat administrations, and um Reed Hoffman, a very very wealthy um Democrat donor. Um and so the Justice Department is is
[15:08]looking at them. They could plausibly say as part of ongoing investigations there is some stuff that we cannot release. But I think it's going to be quite difficult to hold back too much
[15:19]just given the political pressure um that has now well defeated Donald Trump basically on this issue. And Marian, I'm sure you're aware that there's there's a new conspiracy theory going around that
[15:30]the that 10,000 FBI agents have been combing through the documents already to remove um any mention of Donald Trump. >> Yeah, it's quite interesting. um as ever sort of the conspiracy theories are out
[15:41]and about in full force. So some of it is genuine conspiracy speculation all that kind of stuff. Some of it is satire. So some of it is people kind of joking about you know oh classic he now
[15:53]wants to release the files and and tweeting out kind of like funny you know posting on X with with just like entire documents that just black lines. No doubt when when these files are
[16:03]released, um, conspiracy land especially will go quite bonkers, but also actually quite validly, there probably will be some things that have been unfounded, theories that we didn't know the truth about that we might actually finally get
[16:14]answers to. Um, and it's where we sit in that murky bit of what actually is conspiracy theory. >> And it's worth saying as well, Sarah, I mean, there's a load of material here which for perfectly proper reasons can't
[16:24]be brought out. So, number one, some of the victims don't want their names to be known. and obviously that that will be kept to um number two there is CCTV
[16:36]footage and you can imagine um it would be quite easy for some of that to be lost indeed another conspiracy theory is that when Epstein killed himself in
[16:46]prison it is interesting that uh the tapes at one stage his his cell was taped that the tapes are missing for a crucial minute or two etc etc and that led to a whole load of conspiracy
[16:57]theories and there are people including Epstein's brother actually who think he may have been murdered in jail. So the the the the fullness of the CCTV records from Epstein's properties will also be
[17:08]questioned, won't it? And and there is other material as well, potentially video material, etc., including potentially um uh talk of of child abuse
[17:19]videos, and none of that is going to see the light of day, and nor obviously should it. So there will be I suppose the point I'm making Sarah is that this is not going to be one great um uh
[17:30]announcement of everything. There is going to be stuff that isn't in it. And I guess that will lead to a further wave of calls for it to be released and
[17:41]further wave of suggestions that actually everything that should have come out won't have come out. >> Oh, almost certainly. And we heard from Pam Bondi, the attorney general, earlier in the year when she announced that they
[17:52]weren't going to release the Epstein files after all. And she said that basically all that was left in there that hadn't been made yet public was was yes, the names of victims and that there was nothing in there that could plausibly lead to anybody else being
[18:04]prosecuted. So it' be fascinating to see if that's the case. But I mean, of course, the first thing everyone's going to do is comb through it looking for mentions of Donald Trump who who did socialize with Jeffrey Epstein. That's
[18:16]well known. who has been mentioned in some of the emails and other documents that have been released, but never with any real suggestion of wrongdoing. And this is what is so bewildering about
[18:27]this is if Donald Trump never did participate in any wrongdoing in Jeffrey Epstein's company or circle, why does is he so keen to keep these files locked
[18:39]down? Because he said during the election campaign that he would publish them for the first couple of months of the administration. They seemed prepared to do that. Then suddenly around about Easter there was this U-turn from the
[18:49]Justice Department. Um so there's all sorts of speculation from whether it could be mentions of him, mentions of his friends or um wealthy donors. He
[18:59]frequently makes the point though that actually Epstein hung out with former Democrats, donated to former Democratic politicians, that they've got more to lose. Well, if that's the case, why isn't he publishing them? He also says,
[19:11]"Look, the Biden administration had these for four years um when there wasn't such pressure to publish them." He said, "If there was anything incriminating about me in there, don't you think they would have used it already, not least during the election
[19:22]campaign?" Not a bad point. But again, if he's so sure he's not incriminated, why on earth has been so opposed to publishing him? That's what I mean, no wonder it fuels conspiracy theories when
[19:33]nobody can work out what his motives are there. We ought to talk a bit about what is actually in them when it comes to what the the the material is that we almost certainly know will be released
[19:43]and why that material is so important and part of it as you say Sarah is about Donald Trump but part of it is much wider than Donald Trump isn't it? So we got a question from Rebecca which I think we ought to try to approach. So
[19:55]what Rebecca asks is I get that the Epstein files are some kind of political Pandora's box of torid goings on but what exactly are they? who compiled them and when and who is the keeper of the
[20:05]afor said and I think the first thing to say Sarah about that is you've got to go back to 2008 haven't you that that year is really important in all of this
[20:15]because it was in 2008 that Epstein actually goes to jail. He pleads guilty to one offense. It's the solicitation for prostitution of a minor, a girl who
[20:26]was 14 years old. Uh it's a state offense and he goes to jail for it, but a very open jail. He's actually allowed to leave every day in a car and go and
[20:37]work in his office and then go back to the prison. There is a ton of other material around at the time, isn't there? So there's a federal case being built against him because there are lots
[20:48]of other girls and they're not young women. They are girls. They are underage. The age of consent in Florida is 18 and a lot of these girls were under that age. And yet he doesn't get
[21:00]prosecuted except for that one uh offense. Uh and that prosecution in 2008 is when everyone is fair to say, isn't
[21:11]it Sarah could have known should have known what kind of a man Epstein was. And that is why all the material relating to that case, the federal uh
[21:23]investigation that never went anywhere and then eventually when there was an investigation that went anywhere and he was arrested again in 2019, all of the
[21:33]material surrounding that as well. So this will be all the emails, all the contexts uh of his life will be in these files
[21:43]and that's why it's it's so important. Yeah, essentially it's the product of a lengthy FBI investigation into well two different criminal investigations as you
[21:54]say in 2008 and eventually in 2019. And in the normal course of events, we might have seen quite a lot of the evidence that had been gathered against him during the course of a trial. Of course,
[22:05]he died in prison before this case ever came to trial. So, this information has been locked away by the FBI. It's kept by the Justice Department now. So ultimately in charge of that is Donald
[22:17]Trump's attorney general Pal Bondi. She says that she has reviewed all of the files. So she technically knows what's in there. And it is a huge trove of documents. It's interviews um with
[22:28]victims, with witnesses. It's items that were taken from Jeffrey Epstein's properties that were seized in the course of these criminal investigations. All kinds of evidence that was building
[22:39]the case against him were it to have gone to court, but but but hasn't. So, it's sitting in, I don't know, boxes, filing cabinets, or on on hard drives somewhere. Um, and that's what people
[22:49]are very eager to get a look at. Now, some of it's been released um earlier this year, but but the well, people assume it's the less interesting bits that have been um made public already,
[23:01]and that's why they want to see what's at the heart of these files. But I should explain um Mariana Justin, it can get really confusing because you've got so basically the product of this
[23:12]criminal investigation locked away in the justice department. Entirely separately from that, we've got um a committee of the House of Representatives trying to find out all they can and they have been subpoenaing
[23:24]Jeffrey Epstein's estate to get material from them. So they obviously have his computers and you know control of his accounts and things like that. So when
[23:34]you see large tranches of emails um being made public uh as they were last week for instance, that's not stuff leaking out of the so-called Epstein files in the Justice Department. That's
[23:44]the oversight committee um getting hold of his communications via the Epstein estate and then putting them into the public domain. So exactly as you say Sarah there is there is material out
[23:55]there already and I suppose this is what has piqu people's interest so much in recent days actually in weeks is that there is material now that has come from those committees and as you say the
[24:06]material itself originates in the Epstein estate. It is not part of the criminal cases, but nonetheless, it contains names uh and tantalizing names,
[24:18]including uh an email uh apparently about Donald Trump um from Jeffrey Epstein in which he says uh I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't
[24:29]barked is Trump um a victim. It the name of the victim is redacted. Spent hours at my house with him. It seems to be an email that suggests that Donald Trump
[24:40]Sarah was in the room with someone um uh for a period of time. Again, no suggestion he did anything wrong, but nonetheless, this is material that does link him with Epstein.
[24:52]>> Yes. Um and in fact, um the White House has named that victim as being Virginia Grey. In the recently published um postuous memoir from her, she does say that she never saw Donald Trump doing
[25:02]anything wrong and that he behaved very well anytime she associated with him. to the White House point to that and say, "Look, you know, if this if this is the most incriminating thing you can find about him spending hours with a woman
[25:13]who has subsequently said he never did anything wrong, then there's nothing to see here." But of course, as we said earlier, that then raises the question once again, if there's nothing to see here, why don't you show us the files? But yeah, every time emails like this
[25:25]come out and they are poured over for for details and particularly to see who's mentioned. So, there were there were a couple of other mentions in that latest trunch of emails about the former Prince Andrew, for instance. Um, and
[25:36]other other men's names have come up. Um, Larry Summers, um, who we were saying is a former, um, Treasury Secretary under Bill Clinton, former Harvard president. He's in a lot of
[25:46]trouble this week because, uh, it was clear that he was relying on Jeffrey Epstein for romantic advice about how to pursue a woman whom he described as his
[25:56]mentee whilst he was married to somebody else. And he's had to step back from basically all public facing roles as a result of this. The New York Times is ending its contract with them and um
[26:08]yeah, I mean Larry Summers has essentially been cancelled for being named in these XE emails and it does have consequences like that for for other people. >> There's there's one side of it which is
[26:18]the political side which Trump himself as we've already heard says Bill Clinton's involved and there's no doubt that Bill Clinton was friendly with with Epstein for a period. uh and Larry
[26:29]Summers as well is a a figure on the the left of American politics and there are others as well. Nurm Chossky, figure on the far left of American politics, trenchant critic of American foreign
[26:39]policy for decades and decades, hugely um uh important academic as well back in the days, a very elderly guy now. He's also involved at one stage with Epstein
[26:50]and and has has been friends with him. And there are lots of other people as well, some socialites in New York, including women who've been involved with Epstein. So it goes right across
[27:01]American politics. But what fascinates me, Sarah, and the reason why I think all of this matters so much is it's not just a political dog fight. It also
[27:12]reinforces, doesn't it, in the minds of many Americans, including Americans who frankly don't think much about politics that there is what they would see as a
[27:21]two-tier justice system that actually if you are rich and well-connected, you can pretty much avoid anything unpleasant
[27:31]happening to you in most circumstances. And that's really what this says to Americans. And I think I I think in that respect it has this sort of undermining
[27:42]sense in American social cultural life. It it it proves to people and this is why it's regarded as so important by so
[27:53]many of them. It proves to people back in 2008 um Epstein essentially gets off. He all sorts of federal investigations were
[28:03]being conducted. They had the testimony. they didn't in the end bring the federal case against him. Um, and it took actually the Miami Herald, didn't it, the newspaper to to get him really
[28:13]prosecuted back in 2019. And he had all these friends in that intervening period. Uh, all these rich, well um, connected friends who knew perfectly
[28:24]well that he was a convicted sex offender, but still were willing to be friendly with him. And I I I think never mind the politics. It seems to me that that is the kind of crucial thing here
[28:36]when it comes to what these files when they are released says to America. >> And isn't the problem for Donald Trump here? Right. Okay. Looks like the files will be released and you know it might be that this story I mean certainly
[28:47]snowballs for other people. It might be that it calms down for him or it snowballs more. Who knows? But is the problem not that when it comes to certainly the very committed and loud vocal people on social media, for some
[28:59]of them this is like the damage is really done. I they don't they they really don't agree with Donald Trump on this and um they feel like he for far
[29:09]too long was very against you know very against releasing the files and actually is this kind of you know do some factions of MAGA just split forever for do they actually start saying oh
[29:19]actually we don't we like Donald Trump very much we're going to you know follow whoever Elon Musk tells us or is it what usually happens which is that these people are still undyingly loyal to Donald Trump and they prefer him to the other options even though They're
[29:31]critical over him on this point. >> Yeah, I I I think the latter. Yeah, because you know what Donald Trump's like? He is perfectly capable of turning this around once these files um are released, presuming that they are,
[29:42]making it seem like it was his idea all along. Um he could even point to statements he made on the um campaign trail saying that he thought the files should be released. He will just suddenly decide um that the last seven
[29:53]or eight months of him refusing to um put this stuff in the public domain never happened. He's always been in favor of releasing the files. There you go. Particularly if it produces a lot of information about Democrats and he sees
[30:05]his political opponents. Um, and there will be such a frenzy of people combing through them looking for names, questioning whether or not there will now be investigations and prosecutions
[30:16]to follow. Um, all sorts of new conspiracies, no doubt, um, coming out about why these people's names were being kept secret. I think I think people will be able to move on pretty fast as they d as they digest the
[30:27]contents of the files rather than worrying about how they finally got hold of them. That's it for this episode. You can hear all of our episodes wherever you get your podcasts. For now though, bye-bye.