[0:02]Justice can be slow and then it can also be swift. Two months to the day after the US Justice Department first started releasing the Epstein files, the arrest
[0:12]of King Charles's brother. Andrew had already been stripped of his titles over allegations of relations with sex traffked minors. Now he stands accused of leaking state secrets to the
[0:24]disgraced financeier from the time when his late mother had pushed for his appointment as trade envoy. What consequences for Andrew, for the British
[0:34]monarchy, and for institutions already rattled by Peter Mandlesson's appointment as the current prime minister's ambassador to the United States, even though he too stands accused of leaking inside information to
[0:45]Epstein during the financial crisis. Will these will this arrest restore faith or further fuel cynicism? Moreover, will the arrest of Andrew force Donald Trump's Justice Department
[0:57]to come clean over what's still unreleased and to pursue wrongdoers in an impartial manner? Whether it's sex trafficking, trading state secrets, or
[1:07]tax evasion. Who is above the law and who is not? Today in the France 24 debate, will it be justice for all? be joined by from Heraford in Western
[1:17]England by historian Ed Owens, author of After Elizabeth, Can the Monarchy Save Itself. With us now from New York, investigative reporter Barry Lavine, the author of The Spider Inside the Tangled
[1:28]Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Galain Maxwell. Thanks for being with us. >> Thank you. >> Uh for also in New York City, former US federal prosecutor Frederick Davis,
[1:39]lecturer in law at Columbia University. Good to see you. Good debate here. >> Uh you can always uh listen, that's right, listen to the France 24 debate
[1:50]wherever podcasts are streamed. Now, even though there are fewer no fewer than nine inquiries by uh police forces in England and Wales surrounding Andrew,
[2:00]our correspondent Benedict Pavio was telling us earlier, the shock is palpable after news that the Temp Valley's Temp's Valley police had descended on the king's private
[2:11]Sandringham estate. That's where Andrew had recently re relocated after being chased from Windsor Castle. Searches at both locations. Yinka Oat has more.
[2:22]>> Arrested on his 66th birthday on suspicions of misconduct in public office. The man once known as his Royal Highness Prince Andrew, the Duke of York
[2:34]and now simply called Andrew Mountbatton Windsor was arrested on Thursday morning by British police. Unmarked cars pulled up to the Sandreham estate and searches were also carried out in Burkshshire and
[2:46]Norfolk. Police have now opened an investigation. As is standard, Andrew Manbatton Windsor was not named in the police report which noted that the Tempame's Valley police had arrested a
[2:56]man in his 60s and taking him into custody. The investigation is centered on claims that emerged in the Epstein files relating to Andrew's time as trade envoy. He appeared to have sent
[3:07]sensitive government emails to Epstein as well as other friends in the finance world. The Epstein files also appear to show that he forwarded official reports to the pedophile about trips to Hong
[3:18]Kong, Singapore, Vietnam, and China in November of 2010. >> Following a thorough assessment, we have now opened an investigation into this allegation of misconduct in public
[3:30]office. We understand the significant public interest in this case and we will provide updates at the appropriate time. >> Andrew Manbatton Windsor has previously
[3:40]denied any wrongdoing in regard to accusations of having sex with a minor or in regard to his friendship with Epstein. But with the release of a fresh trove of documents, including an image
[3:51]of him leaning over a young woman, pressure had been mounting against him. Hours before the news broke of the arrest, the British prime minister said even members of the royal family are not above the law.
[4:03]>> One of the core principles um in our system is that everybody is equal under the law and nobody is above the law and it is really important that that is
[4:13]applied across the board. >> It was still business as usual for King Charles III who continued with public engagements Thursday. >> Good afternoon, your majesty. Do you have any reaction to the arrest of your brother, sir?
[4:25]>> He was greeted with questions about his brother's arrest as he arrived at London Fashion Week. Earlier, King Charles had released a statement expressing his deepest concern, adding that the law
[4:35]must take its course. Not since 1647 with the arrest of King Charles I during the English Civil War has a member of
[4:44]the British royal family been arrested. >> Promised. We're also joined by Ed Owens who's with us from Heraford in Western England. Thanks for joining us here in
[4:53]the France 24 debate. >> Good evening. Great to be with you. >> And Anise Mout, columnist at the Daily Telegraph and the Sunday Telegraph. Paris traffic could not keep you away on this day.
[5:04]>> Yes. >> Let me begin with you. Uh Ed, uh were you were you shocked when you heard the news that Andrew was uh uh being
[5:12]questioned and is detained? >> Uh yes and no. Um I was slightly shocked by the timing um of the arrest. However,
[5:23]I felt that after the king's statement last week uh where he made it very clear that he would uh cooperate uh with the
[5:34]authorities um in the event that there was a formal investigation. I think it was clear from that point onwards that this was this was a clear likelihood that a an arrest could take place and
[5:45]that therefore the the king was willing to cooperate with any wi-i with the authorities in this instance. >> And the king again as we saw in that report sticking to his public schedule
[5:55]going to a a fashion show. What does that tell you? >> Fashion week. >> Indeed. Indeed. Um well this is about business as usual for the British royal
[6:06]family. a clear emphasis that despite the the trauma of the this unfolding this unfolding crisis that the rest of the family are rallying together in
[6:16]order to put on you know a united front demonstrating to the public that the the work of the monarchy goes on uninterrupted.
[6:26]Uh so the uh uh again as we saw in that report it's a it's about the sex uh and it's about leaking state secrets. The
[6:37]former Prince Andrew was trade envoy from 2001 to 2011. Uh he is accused of uh uh leaking sensitive government documents and
[6:46]commercial uh information. In the Mail on Sunday reported how after a 2010 trip by Andrew as trade envoy to China,
[6:56]Jeffrey Epstein's aid, David Stern, plotted with the late pedophile to do quote discreet deals uh with the the Chinese. Uh Ed Owens, uh is this
[7:08]treason? >> I don't think it's it's it's treason in any in any in any way. I think what is clearly uh at stake here is potentially
[7:19]misconduct in public office. um that Andrew essentially abused uh potentially uh his his public role uh as a UK trade
[7:31]envoy um benefiting from this position um given that he was sent on trade missions on behalf of the United Kingdom's government and then relaying
[7:41]information sensitive confidential information to to confidants uh including Epstein. That is what is at stake here. Um the the and the issue the
[7:52]issue clearly I think is is is potential impropriy on Andrew's part if he is indeed found to have communicated information that was confidential and
[8:03]sensitive to the wrong people. Barry Lavine, after the research that you did for your book, um the revelations of the
[8:13]li that have started coming out again, two months ago today was when the US Department of Justice began uh releasing documents. Uh is it worse than you thought or is it just confirm your
[8:25]suspicions? Well, we're certainly learning horrific new details from the uh the documents that we've been reviewing. I mean,
[8:36]again, there's 3 million documents. There's 2 million that are still missing. But what we're finally getting and and what is most satisfying to me uh
[8:47]having interviewed so many of the uh survivors over the years is that there's finally an international reckoning of this case.
[8:58]>> We have investigations. >> Go ahead. >> Yes, I can. We're having it. Yes, we're having investigations not only in your own country, but of course in England
[9:08]with former Prince Andrew, Norway, uh so many other countries are finally stepping up and investigating uh political individuals, financial
[9:18]individuals related to the findings in these files. So this is a long time coming, but I I you know I I applaud all
[9:28]the efforts that are taking place and I know that the survivors are particularly happy today because uh former Prince
[9:38]Andrew is in custody. They of course would have liked him to be in custody related to the allegations made by at
[9:48]least one victim of three instances of sexual abuse with her. There was also groping involving another uh survivor.
[9:57]uh but this has opened up the fact even though uh this is about uh him sharing uh government reports from visits to
[10:06]Vietnam, Singapore and China to Epstein uh in in addition to that investment opportunities in gold and uranium and Afghanistan
[10:16]uh relating to his role as the uh UK envoy. Everything is off the table now. Depending on what the investigators
[10:26]there may find in his own computers. In addition to that, will they find any incriminating photos or or videotapes?
[10:36]So, you know, this is this is just beginning. And I do hope that they do uh uh perform a absolutely thorough investigation uh into former Prince
[10:48]Andrew. And and it's unfortunate uh that here in the US we don't have the same type of reckoning from a um from the top of the government.
[10:59]>> Let's get to the let's get to the US in in a moment. I I first want to just just get the ramifications here what it means for the House of Windsor. Uh as you just
[11:10]said an important point. Uh there were searches done both at Saningham and at Windsor Castle. Uh Andrew, it's been a while that he's been the black sheep of
[11:19]the family and the uh even in the pro- royals tabloids. We could show you, for instance, the cover of uh last Saturday's uh Daily Mirror uh where the
[11:30]current Prince of Wales distances himself uh from uh from uh Andrew. Uh a stain on the family uh was that headline. But there's also revelations
[11:41]regarding the help that Andrew continued to get along the way. uh Queen Elizabeth and uh uh her late husband coughing up
[11:51]most of the 12 million pounds to settle with Virginia Grey uh in 2022 including one and a half million at the time from
[12:01]then uh Prince Charles. Now, the Sun uh uh puts in its headline, oh, he hasn't paid any of it back, but still Charles
[12:10]is doing his best to distance himself uh from uh from his brother. Uh and Moute, how much can he distance himself from
[12:20]it? And is this a real problem for the royalty as a whole? >> It's a problem, but yes, he wanted to distance himself. And Prince William has
[12:31]wanted to distance himself from his uncle. a very long time ago. He thinks he's sleazy. I mean, he was perfectly aware of what it was like, possibly not with the abuse of women, but all the rest. It was perfectly obvious that he
[12:42]and his ex-wife, who's, you know, they're closer than many people who are still married to one another, uh, were interested mostly in in in money and and advantages and free trips and, you know,
[12:54]free plane trips on private planes and stuff like that. Um I I disagree with one of the participants uh about the fact that it's not treason. Uh some of
[13:04]the documents that were immediately forwarded by uh Andrew to about Epstein to Epstein were uh the documents after
[13:13]the visit to Hong Kong. Uh Hong Kong is of great matter to China. At the time when he was doing this, I think China had not completed the political takeover of the territory which is already part
[13:25]of China. It was supposed to be one one country two systems and that's the time of the transition and um the fact that any any way shape or form in which you
[13:35]can have you can have pro you know there were documents there were some of those documents were uh summaries of the meetings that were established by not by Andrew who's not capable of that they were established by uh civil servants
[13:47]who were and diplomats and so they were explaining very much the way they explained it is a wonderful cue for the the Chinese should they get access to it of how Britain is going to react to some
[13:58]things, where the weaknesses are, where the the disincclination to to to >> Are you shocked by that? >> I'm extremely shocked by this. I don't think heite I don't think he I don't think he quite understood what he was
[14:09]doing because you know he's not a very very clever bloke but uh I'm absolutely shocked by the fact that whenever he was somewhere there was there was the concentrate of not just the business
[14:19]policy but the political outlook that was leading that business policy in various places where he was and that was passed on without any kind of redaction whatever it was just sort of sent over
[14:29]to Epstein who could use it for any kind of influence trafficking that he would he wanted to do. >> Yeah. And there there's uh uh and uh we heard Barry Lavine touch upon it. Of
[14:40]course, the the the uh sex trafficking aspect of it. Uh allegations surrounding three uh uh underage girls. These are not proven in court, but they're
[14:52]allegations, including uh Virginia Duay when she was 17. Gain Maxwell acting uh as the the conduit, if you will. Gain
[15:03]Maxwell uh whose money came from her media tycoon father the high-flying Robert Maxwell and iset mute we can uh go back to 1990
[15:14]uh perhaps show there you see her at the can film festival in the company uh of the late Maxwell and go back to 1990 and show a picture of the enthusiastically
[15:24]pro-EU Robert Maxwell at the Tasbul launch of his new newspaper at the time the European and he's >> where I used to work
[15:35]>> uh where I used to work and uh I was the Paris bureau chief uh for the the nine months that Maxwell was alive and and the thing was kicking and then it was bought by Maxwell died. It was bought by
[15:46]the Barklay brothers and we went on for uh eight more years. So it was actually it was great. It was a panuropean paper and it was a great paper and it was also a very good place to work at. But what's
[15:57]interesting about this is that the officers, the early officers were in the same building on Rudik near the Sburn where the Maxwells had the family flat. And so Gilen, aged, you know, early 20s,
[16:09]would every now and then sort of rush into the office, you know, impuriously asking people to do stuff for her that had nothing to do with her jobs. Uh, and I I used to type my pieces on a
[16:21]computer. And I hope every time she came in, I hoped that, you know, I hope that she would mistake me for a secretary. But she asked uh the man who was in charge of international advertising one
[16:30]day to go and and u uh get her mother's car which had broken down in Fontenblau. And so he go and organize this so that my mother gets her car fixed back. And
[16:41]another time she rang up from the Ritz hotel and she said, "I'm the Rit. I'm at the Ritz. Uh the service is awful. Call them and shout at them." I mean that was the kind of woman she was in her early
[16:52]20s. She may have changed, but she was the most spoiled brat in existence at the time. >> So, an entitled socialite. >> Yes.
[17:01]>> Uh we've been talking about Andrew uh who to a degree was also an entitled socialite of a different order. >> Yes.
[17:11]>> How does this all lead to all of this? >> Uh Maxwell gave money to Oxford University. His residence was in Oxford. It was actually leased from the council
[17:22]and it was a sort of former uh historic house. Uh and uh he managed to get his daughter into Bale and I do not know whether she had the qualifications to get into one of the best colleges and
[17:32]most prestigious colleges at Oxford but she certainly got there and she certainly used it. I don't even know what she read there but uh she made lots of connections there and she never
[17:42]stopped. She was a great networker. She admired her father. She wanted in in many ways she was she was very much like him. She was mcurial, difficult and and absolutely interested in making
[17:54]connections and everybody who met her who was not the help which you know the European people were seen by her as being the help. She was I'm told quite charming and fun and amusing and fun to
[18:04]be with. Uh and when her father died uh and nobody knows how he died, whether it was a stroke, whether it was suicide, some some people said there was, you know, an assassination conducted in the
[18:15]high seas on the boat. Uh she was devastated. She was also devastated because he was ruined. So suddenly there was no money at all because he spent everything on his various companies and
[18:25]he couldn't meet his obligations and she moved to America where she she met Epstein and Epstein reminded her in many ways of her father. >> And so Barry Lavine this is uh in your
[18:36]book you talk about how it's all about networking in the end. When does networking turn to something so dark? Well, this was the thing with Jeffrey
[18:49]Epstein and and using Gillan in the sense that uh uh particularly for the uh recruitment of um of girls for Epstein,
[19:00]Gilan meshed with him in the sense that she presented herself with him as a protector, a big sister, a mother-like
[19:10]figure, and she was she was nothing but uh uh she recruited these uh these victims. And as she later told a friend who I quoted in my book, uh she she
[19:21]referred to these girls as uh nothing but trash. uh she had no empathy at all uh for the victimization and the criminality uh that was taking place,
[19:31]but she played a very important role with Jeffrey Epstein and and that included the recruitment of uh rich and
[19:40]powerful men around the world uh that Jeffrey Epstein would use to take advantage of and in you know in my belief uh and and many others uh for
[19:51]blackmail purposes uh to gain uh money and and other things that he needed. Uh so uh you know this was so
[20:03]wide uh is unbelievable in terms of what we're seeing from the documents. We knew about a core group of of of men uh in
[20:13]his circle, but the uh tentacles that we're seeing now that have branched out all over the world uh is is absolutely unbelievable to me. And you've se you
[20:24]talked about it earlier. It's not just the British royals. Ties between Epste and Norway's crown princess were already known. Now documents reveal that Meta Marit and Crown Prince Hakan borrowed an
[20:35]Epstein-owned property in Palm Beach, Florida for several days in 2013. This after being uh convicted for soliciting uh sex with a minor. Former prime
[20:44]minister uh Torbj Bjorn Yagland whose home uh with police raided last week in Oslo faces a corruption investigation for dealings with Epstein when he was head of the Norwegian Nobel Committee
[20:56]and the head of the European and the Council of Europe rather. And uh speaking of raids, French police this past Monday combing for evidence at the Arab World Institute whose longtime boss resigned last week. Iconic former
[21:08]culture minister Jacqu Long. him and his film producer daughter suspected of benefiting from more than just helpful hints on tax optimization. Frederick
[21:17]Davis, I know that you uh hang your hat uh part of the time here in Paris. Your thoughts? We have these criminal probes taking place on this side of the
[21:26]Atlantic. How's it going where you are? >> Well, criminal pros. Look, we have the distinction of having a president who's a convicted felon. Uh he was convicted
[21:37]not related to Epstein but was related to sex. He uh forged uh fake documents to hide sex with a porn star. Um uh look the Epstein thing as as everybody said
[21:48]is fascinating in terms of the number of people that got caught up by this guy who was a genius at uh making money and then using it to buy influence and then uh also used young women to have
[22:00]influence and a lot of reputations are being changed and ruined. the the issue we don't know yet is what what what's the impact is going to be on Trump. Uh
[22:09]he's unlikely to learn we're unlikely to learn that he committed a further crime out of this at this point. Oddly he seems immune to a lot of bad news on his
[22:20]impact on his reputation other than with respect to the Epstein stuff and even his base seems very concerned that he crossed some terrible lines with respect
[22:30]to young women. So, um, it's clear to me that his justice department is dragging this out as long as they can. There's some reason to believe that the trove of
[22:40]unreleased documents, the 3 million that we know we don't know about, may well contain allegations concerning Trump. Uh whether enough comes out that really
[22:50]changes the uh course of uh the momentum that he still has uh among his base where still a lot of people uh are going
[23:00]to resist uh having him diminished in terms of his authority remains to be seen. So, let me ask you a practical question here. Uh, last week the deputy head of the Justice
[23:11]Department said, "Well, there's there's still more to come. Um, some estimating that there could be double the numbers of documents that still are to be released." And then, uh, we had the head
[23:22]of the the the attorney general, who's the effectively the minister of justice, if you will, um, she's now said uh, oh, no, that that that's all that that's all for now, folks. So, which one is it? And
[23:34]are you expecting more? >> Who knows? Look, you know, I u let me share my opinion. I don't believe anything they say very frankly. I mean,
[23:44]Pam Bondi has said any number of things. It's fairly clear just in terms of looking at the documents and the dates on them that there are a lot of documents we don't have. It could well
[23:55]be that the the chronological set of documents we don't have are during the period when a number of younger women whose names are unknown were making
[24:05]their complaints about various men who violated them uh under Epstein's authority and and that was that during the chronological period when we know
[24:14]Trump was very close to Epstein. Uh so to me there's a strong possibility that there are documents out there that uh put Trump in a very very unflattering
[24:25]light and it's so very very clear to me that Pam Bondi and everybody around here are doing whatever they can to people from knowing them. >> And just to ask about the you know how
[24:34]how slow or fast justice is. 2018 is when uh the heat starts to get turned up on Epstein. He dies in prison shortly
[24:44]after that. Then uh we have investigations going on behind closed doors. We have the conviction of Virginia Duay. Uh but really everything
[24:56]seems to have gone into fastforward since the release of these documents the last two months. Was justice too slow before that?
[25:06]>> Well, look, uh Epstein and Trump, both of them were very good at gaming the system. uh Epstein reached a deal uh 20 years ago,
[25:17]>> but there was four years of Joe Biden and there was four years of Joe Biden in between. Couldn't they couldn't a justice have gone quicker during those years?
[25:26]>> Well, certainly uh yes and no. Look, uh under Joe Biden, Attorney General Merrick Garland, whom I know quite well, uh started a very thoughtful, painful,
[25:36]and slow investigation of Donald Trump, which ended up not going any place. Uh there are a number of people who criticize attorney general uh Garland
[25:45]for that. I don't I I think if you're going to go after the pre president, you have to very very carefully. And uh Trump has gamed the system in terms of whether more investigations could have
[25:57]come out about uh uh related to Epstein. I'm just not sure. We haven't seen that. You know, Eugen Maxwell was, as you pointed out, prosecuted because we knew what the case was against her. I haven't
[26:09]seen that many other criminal cases uh coming out of the Epstein stuff. The real scandal is that is that Trump uh never faced justice on the insurrection claim and on the misuse of public
[26:20]documents. You know, the evidence on that was very very strong in my opinion. And uh he never faced justice on that. >> Ed Owens, again, it's about heads of state, whether they're monarchs or
[26:31]presidents. Uh it's very delicate how you dance. Again, we're talking on the day when the eighth in line to the throne has been arrested in the UK.
[26:43]>> Yes, but maybe not for much longer. I think already the king has signaled very clearly that um he will not put up any resistance should the government come
[26:55]forward with legislation to remove Andrew formally now from the line of succession. And I think that's probably that that is where we're logically headed. that was uh reported last week
[27:05]in the the Times of London. Um that that whereas before King Charles had said something along the lines of I don't want parliamentarians to waste their time discussing uh how what that they
[27:17]would remove a member of the royal family from the line of succession. But then it was it was uh it was put out that in fact the king would do nothing to to put up resistance. In fact, I
[27:28]think they will they will probably be actively encouraging the parliamentarians in Westminster to get on and legislate to formally remove him from the line of succession because that
[27:38]will look a lot better for the monarchy full stop. >> All right. So the taking action in the in the UK uh on Capitol Hill last week there was a lot of arguing and Frederick
[27:50]Davis alluded to it uh where you had the head of the Justice Department Pam Bondi challenging the right of a congressional panel to even questioner over the unruly partial release of those Epstein files.
[28:01]Uh so many still under wrap. This is how uh the the boss says we only for now can only take his word on the matter. I have nothing to hide. I've been
[28:12]exonerated. I have nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. They went in hoping that they'd find it and found just the opposite. I've been totally exonerated. In fact, Jeffrey Epste was fighting that
[28:22]I don't get elected with some author, a slee bag, by the way. And I've been totally exonerated. >> Barry Levine. Barry Lavine. Uh again,
[28:33]your thoughts on the contrast between the UK and the United States. Yeah, I I I would just want to point out quickly that uh uh I don't think he's
[28:44]really been exonerated in terms of the president. We we know that the uh according to the files uh that uh one um underage alleged victim uh was
[28:55]interviewed uh uh three or four times by the FBI. uh we don't uh we don't know the extent of the specifics of that and I do think uh uh that there's more
[29:07]material in the two million files uh that we have yet to see. Uh the president has uh uh had a 15-year relationship with with Jeffrey Epstein.
[29:18]Uh we we learned recently that uh uh he he uh alerted Palm Beach police after Jeffrey Epstein's arrest that a lot of local people uh knew about this. It
[29:30]raises questions as to when he knew and did he ever uh take any action uh to bring this to the attention of
[29:39]authorities. Uh but uh I'm hoping to see now that the um uh what's happening here in the US is that particular states are
[29:49]are going after uh in investigations. For instance, in New Mexico, uh there was some information in the files that
[29:57]uh uh two uh two young girls may have been uh killed and and buried uh near his Zoro ranch in New Mexico. Now,
[30:08]officials there are taking the action to do a full investigation on this. And so, we need to see this all over uh the United States because Epstein had
[30:19]tentacles in to many individuals and there was wrongdoing and a and uh mostly here in the in the US, but also
[30:28]internationally. There are 20 men that uh representative uh Thomas Massie who was spearheaded the transparency act in Washington uh he said that there were 20
[30:39]men who took part in Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking. Six billionaires, one of them in Canada, uh a wealthy individual in Italy, uh a a former
[30:51]politician, a government official. Uh we have not seen all the details on these men. There are FBI, what's called 302
[31:01]witness reports uh that would have the uh details on what actions uh the FBI uh took to investigate these men. And you
[31:12]know, it's troubling. Just yesterday, in fact, uh uh Jeffrey Epstein's main financial benefactor uh Lesie Wexner uh
[31:21]was uh finally uh grilled by the oversight committee in Ohio. uh and he acknowledged uh that uh he had uh uh not
[31:31]been uh not been interviewed until 2019. And that is flabbergasting in the sense
[31:39]that this was a key individual who for uh almost two decades escaped any type of scrutiny even though he claims uh he
[31:49]was not aware of Epstein's wrongdoing. So there's still so much uh that needs to be done >> and mut you were with us two weeks ago in those two weeks uh a lot has come
[32:01]more has come out and because it's taking a long time to sift through these three million documents >> even with AI >> even with AI especially with AI some might say uh and and there's the the the
[32:12]the question is as in those two weeks do you feel as though again and with the news today more faith in the justice system
[32:23]that in the end, you know, when there's wrongdoing of this magnitude, you do face the consequences or will this fuel more cynicism? >> I wouldn't say there's more cynicism. I
[32:34]mean, lots of stuff is coming out. It's coming out in a very disordered way and I think this is by design. Uh I'm told that there's about another three million plus documents that haven't been sort of
[32:45]released and you know I don't see anybody calling for their release now because they are still working on on what's been released. Um I uh I also
[32:55]think that we are seeing something that took place over a quarter century and the world was a different place. Uh so women did not get justice at the time
[33:06]and they do now we hope. uh they were not taken seriously. Uh models who sort of found themselves having affairs with billionaires in a flat on Avenue F and
[33:16]uh sort of 8,000 square ft flat on Avenue first the swankiest where Jeffrey in Paris his his apartment uh where you know well you know what's wrong with
[33:28]having hanky panky with a billionaire with this is not the way people look at this anymore. So I think eventually it will come out. Um, the other thing is that the one thing that was not so
[33:38]obvious in the beginning was the incredible network of of Jeffrey Epstein, which is all about influence pedling and um and sort of compulsive uh
[33:50]uh need to to make connections. I mean one thing that we found out very recently in in the Dy Mail of London is that uh it's Epstein who introduced it's
[34:01]Andrew Prince Andrew former Prince Andrew who introduced um um Epstein to Muhammad Ben Zed uh the president and shake of uh Dubai and president of the
[34:12]United Arab Emirates who is a leading politician in in in the Gulf. And very obviously Andrew wanted to show that he knew people too. Um and and uh he made
[34:22]those connections which is which tells you everything about how useful he was because he did meet lots of people if only on state visits in in Buckingham Palace and returning state visits. So uh
[34:34]we I don't think we know enough about this. Uh but the horrible thing is that all those poor girls who were horribly mistreated were a commodity to Epstein,
[34:44]>> a commodity to these men. They were not the main story. They, you know, they should have been the main story, but they're not the main story because they were just one of the various ways like the private planes and the invitations
[34:55]and and the money to help uh Sarah Ferguson pay whatever. >> And here in this case, the the criminal charges are are about the his his duties
[35:05]as a as a trade envoy, not about the sex trafficking yet. No, because he had an arbitration and a settlement out of
[35:15]court with Virginia Ju and it is a legal it's a there's a legal document that came out of it where you know she would no longer sue him uh and and she would
[35:25]receive I reported 10 to 12 million pounds uh and you can imagine that somebody who'd been sort of trying to reconstruct herself and fight against this in such difficult circumstances it
[35:37]may not have been such a bad agreement but that also means that if you want to sort of reintroduce this uh uh this as a as a judicial case. It's not it's not often ready. Uh Boris Johnson would say
[35:47]it's not it's not possible. Other women who now come to the foreign finally listen to that would be something else. But it wasn't something that would have warranted Prince Andrew, the former Prince Andrew being arrested this
[35:58]morning. It was only this morning. uh the it's it's the it's the influence and uh uh and in in in in politics and international politics and trade and
[36:09]it's it's also the discovery that it was he made his own country vulnerable. >> Frederick Davis something interesting in what Anie Zabed said about uh the fact
[36:19]that you know there are things that uh you could get away with before that you can no longer get away with in the end.
[36:28]uh the uh insider trading, the selling state secrets. Is that an easier conviction than uh the sex trafficking
[36:38]ones? In the end, what will be the I guess you could say the top of the bill? >> Well, there's two separate subjects. There's the subject of the law, as it
[36:49]should be, and the subject of the law under Donald Trump. And I hate to sound cynical, but I really am. Um, look, prosecuting insider trading, which I'm very familiar with, prosecuting sex
[37:00]crimes, which I'm not so familiar with. Those are straightforward enough cases. We we know how to do it. Um, the the problem with the Justice Department, and I'll be very uh cynical in and
[37:10]expressing an opinion is the current Justice Department is uh essentially corrupt to the core. Uh the cases they are bringing are against uh Trump's
[37:21]enemies. And I've looked in great detail a case against James Comey who's head of the FBI uh against our attorney general here in New York and I've gone I've really read every document filed them.
[37:32]They are incompetently done. They're badly done and they're totally uh politically motivated. Uh and so when Pam Bondi appears in Congress and sort
[37:42]of gets into this uh cage fight against the uh uh Congress, people in Congress, uh she's just there representing her her client. And her client is not me as a citizen of the United States. It's not
[37:54]the people of the United States. Her client is Donald Trump. >> And that brings us to what's going to happen next week. Former President Bill Clinton and his wife Hillary are up before the House of Representatives Oversight Committee. uh the former first
[38:06]lady who lost in the race for president to Trump in 2016. Well, she spoke to the BBC. >> What we're seeing, I think it's fair to say, is a continuing cover up by the
[38:16]Trump administration. In fact, when the attorney general testified last week, uh it uh was quite a scene because she refused to answer questions.
[38:28]>> Do you regret the links that there have been? >> You know, we have no links. We have a very clear record that we've been willing to talk about which my husband
[38:39]has said he took some uh rides on the airplane for his charitable work. I don't recall ever meeting him.
[38:49]>> Uh Barry Lavine, uh your thoughts on how it will go next week. Will everyone who's uh to the right believe one story and everyone who's to the left believe another?
[39:01]Well, I I I definitely think that's, you know, that's the case because this has become so politicized. Uh to begin with, uh the only reason that uh uh they're
[39:12]being called is because uh u you know, Trump is going after his enemies. Uh he he wanted to go after uh uh Bill Clinton and they're doing that now. He's trying
[39:24]to put him through the mud. Even though uh let's remember uh for the sake of history here that Donald Trump uh had a 15-year relationship with with Jeffrey Epstein where they socialized a great
[39:35]deal. We also have allegations uh from three uh uh women uh talking about uh and one in particular that disturbs me a groping incident that took place that
[39:47]she alleged with Donald Trump right in front of Jeffrey Epstein while he was in the room. Uh we don't have allegations like that against uh former President
[39:57]Clinton. Uh we do know from the files that uh he was uh there was a photograph of him uh in a swimming pool or a hot
[40:05]tub uh with a uh with a young woman. We don't know the circum all the circumstances of that. Uh at the very least it's embarrassing. I don't know if
[40:15]there's anything more to it. Go ahead. >> No, no, we're listening. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I so you know I mean we
[40:25]we need to we need to focus on the individuals to me that are really important in moving this case along. For instance, the um oversight committee uh
[40:36]interviewing Lesie Wexner yesterday was w was extremely important and and I want to see the um oversight committee really
[40:45]take the task um bringing in the two co-executives of Jeffrey Epstein's estate, his lawyer and his longtime accountant, Darren Indk and and uh uh
[40:56]Richard Khan. Uh these were men that have been with Jeffrey Epstein from the very beginning. Uh there was a lot of financial uh uh questions over uh
[41:07]Senator Ron Weiden said that uh Jeffrey Epstein put put forward more than$1 billion dollars in suspicious wire trans transactions to individuals. Uh these
[41:18]two men while they deny any wrongdoing are right in the middle of that. They they they uh put Jeffrey Epstein in a position to have 150 different bank accounts. Money was being filtered
[41:29]through not only US banks but Russian banks. So there's a lot for these men to uh speak about >> a lot a lot to parse through. Ed Owens, quite the contrast, isn't it? Uh in the
[41:40]United States, uh it's happening before congressional panels. It's quite performative. Uh in the UK, we don't even uh know, the public doesn't know uh
[41:49]where uh Andrew is being questioned at this time. It's a very different kind of investigation. >> Yes, it is. Um a bit more quiet, bit
[42:02]more discreet, I think, a bit more British in that respect. Um the the the pressure uh ultimately uh for the police to act has come from um both the the
[42:13]public and the media. Um it's notable that the leading Republican organization in the United Kingdom, Republic, um reported Andrew to the police just over
[42:24]a week ago specifically in relation to the documents that came out of the the Epstein files um regarding uh Andrew's
[42:34]time as a trade envoy and this this suggestion that uh he may have used his time as a trade envoy to to to gain information which he then passed on to Epstein. So it's significant that a lot
[42:46]of that pressure groups like Republic have have have played an active role in in pushing for a formal investigation as
[42:55]well. I think um you know that Andrew's fall from grace comparable also to the to the recent fall from grace of former
[43:04]Labour uh polit uh MP former Labour MP and uh and party grande Peter Manderson. very very significant
[43:16]that these two prominent individuals uh public individuals the last 30 years have you know had their their their public careers completely derailed uh by
[43:26]this episode and of course in the in in the pursuit of justice uh up until this point um it has been justice in the case of Andrew um as led by as led by the
[43:38]media uh and it now remains to be seen what the police make of uh Andrew's behavior his conduct Um and they they will have undertaken the interviews with him today. There
[43:48]might be further interviews with members of the British royal family. Certainly um the king has made clear that the the Buckingham Palace will cooperate uh with the investigation and therefore we could
[44:00]anticipate that evidence will be forthcoming uh which which might help the police with this uh this inquiry. >> All right. So a stress test for the House of Windsor, a stress test for UK
[44:11]politics. Uh, I want to thank you so much, Ed Owens, for being with us from Heraford. I want to thank Barry Lavine and Frederick Davis in New York and Elizabeth Moute. Thank you for being
[44:21]with us here in the France 24 debate.