[0:00]Tonight, a warning from MI5 about Chinese [music] espionage as the security minister announces a package of measures to counter the threats.
[0:10]Let me speak plainly. This activity involves [music] a covert and calculated attempt by a foreign power to interfere
[0:20]with our sovereign affairs in favor of its own interests. And this government will not tolerate it. Two women [music] are accused of
[0:31]masquerading as recruitment head hunters to target parliament and the government. Tonight, the Chinese embassy has dismissed the [music] allegations as purification and malicious slander.
[0:42]Also ahead in the next hour, Nigel Farage tells us that the Home Secretary's [music] new asylum policy is designed to stave off the threat from his party as new figures show [music] that the so-called
[0:53]immigration bors wave was even bigger than previously thought. Cammy Benort talks tough on welfare spending but tells Sky News she won't commit [music] yet to keeping the
[1:04]pension triple lock and around the world in 502 days as the prime minister heads off on another foreign trip. We look at the risks [music] and rewards of playing the
[1:16]global statesman. Well, all that and more with our panel tonight who haven't traveled that [music] far. Jim Murphy and Baroness Jenny Jones will be with us for the next
[1:26]hour. It's Tuesday. I'm Darren McAffrey live from Westminster and this is the politics [music] hub. A very good evening and welcome to the
[1:46]program. We'll be getting on to all of those stories in just the next couple of minutes, but we want to start with a developing story tonight. Uh, and that is live pictures from the House of Representatives in Washington DC where
[1:57]members are beginning to vote on a bill that would compel the Trump administration to release case files in regards to Jeffrey Epstein. The measure would still need to be passed by the
[2:08]Senate and indeed signed, of course, by President Trump. Over the weekend, Donald Trump said that Republicans should vote for the release as there is nothing to hide. But as I say, that vote
[2:19]is uh due to get underway at any minute. We are expecting a result, I think, within the next hour. When we have that, of course, we will bring it live here on Sky News. The expectation, of course, is
[2:31]that it will pass the House of Representatives. H But, as I say, we will bring you that result here on Sky News probably within the next hour or so.
[2:42]But let's start with our main story tonight and that is their MO5 have warned that figures linked to the Chinese intelligence service are trying to recruit people inside UK's
[2:52]parliament. The warning from the security service was issued to MPs, peers and parliamentary staff and it concerns two women who operate online as head hunters. Now, interestingly, since
[3:03]this story came out, I decided to check my LinkedIn today, and it turns out that I was also contacted by one of them, claiming to be Shirley Shen. This was
[3:14]last year, and this is what she said in a DM message to me. She said, "Hi, my name is Shirley, a global head hunter. A very famous research center is looking
[3:25]for virtual global consultants. luckily to see your LinkedIn. We find you are so excellent candidates. We really look forward to cooperate with you. If you
[3:35]have interest, please contact me. As you can see, that was sent in May of last year. Now, perhaps unsurprisingly, um I didn't even read that message and I certainly did not respond. But what is
[3:46]clear is that this is pretty widespread because we heard from the speaker of the House of Commons today claiming that the messaging was widespread and also targeted. Meanwhile, a spokesperson for
[3:58]the Chinese embassy this afternoon has branded the accusations as pure fabrication and accused the UK of a selfstaged sherat. Well, our political
[4:07]correspondent Mori Rora has tonight's first report. >> Behind a year of nicities between Westminster and Beijing, serious security concerns from the heart of the
[4:19]Chinese state. Not for the first time this year. We're talking about allegations of spying within Westminster backed by the Chinese government. This time, a stark warning
[4:30]direct from MI5. In a letter to parliamentary staff, Common Speaker Lindseay Hy warns, "The Chinese Ministry of State Security is
[4:40]actively reaching out to individuals in our community. Their aim is to collect information and lay the groundwork for long-term relationships." The alert
[4:50]explicitly accuses two people, Amanda Chu and Shirley Shen, of posing as head hunters on LinkedIn to reach out to people in parliament. Both have been approached for comment.
[5:02]>> Done job. >> The government warns the threat extends beyond parliamentarians. >> Let me speak plainly. This activity
[5:11]involves a covert and calculated attempt by a foreign power to interfere with our sovereign affairs in favor of its own
[5:20]interests. And this government will not tolerate it. >> The government has reacted with fresh measures. New funding for security programs, briefings for political
[5:31]parties and election candidates, and working with recruitment sites like LinkedIn to clamp down on spying. But the opposition says the government should be tougher.
[5:41]>> It can impose sanctions. It can cancel propaganda visits to China and it can put the Chinese Communist Party in the enhanced tier. When they do any of these, we will be here and ready to
[5:52]help. A spokesperson for the Chinese embassy dismissed the allegations as pure fabrication and malicious slander, adding, "We urge the UK side to immediately stop this self-staged
[6:02]sherard of false accusations and self a grandement and stop going further down the wrong path of undermining China UK relations."
[6:12]These fresh allegations come weeks after the collapse of the case into two men accused of spying for China around Westminster. Accusations both men
[6:22]continue to deny and repeatedly delayed plans for a Chinese super embassy in central London have become a flash point in the discussion around UK China relations. With a decision due next
[6:33]month, China has warned of consequences if a decision continues to be pushed back. Experts warned this is not just a Westminster problem.
[6:42]>> We know from previous cases that tens of thousands of people are being approached right across the UK economy. So it's not even especially parliament. It's
[6:53]actually more likely to be businesses and businesses are very much more exposed, more susceptible. The government is walking a tight rope between wanting to look tough on China
[7:04]and keeping trade doors open with an economic superpower. But with repeated allegations like this, MPs are mounting pressure on the government to take
[7:14]bigger steps as far as labeling China a national security threat. With future diplomatic visits to Beijing
[7:24]not off the table, allegations of spying only serve to hinder the relationship between the two nations. Mari Aurora, Sky News. >> Well, let's bring in the former
[7:37]Conservative leader and cabinet minister, Serene Dun Smith, who has been sanctioned by China in the past. Ian, very good evening to you. Were you
[7:46]surprised by today's announcement? Well, not really because this has been going on for some time. I mean, a lot of us, the organization I set up, the interpolamental answer on China's got 53
[7:57]countries in it now. We've been warning about this. This is what they do everywhere they go. The Chinese Communist Party, uh, they have this low-level attempt to get as much information as possible. They gather it
[8:08]in the hope of getting something very important, and they've already been accused of spying in parliament. that case collapsed because the government could not say that they China was a
[8:19]continuing threat uh to national security. And that's ridiculous because 2 weeks after the collapse of that case, what happens? They're back here today telling us that China has been
[8:29]threatening uh because of its uh spying attempts again through another unit, but they're still spying on us. And that makes it a mockery of their position.
[8:41]Well, of course, the Chinese have denied this and they repeatedly do deny um that they are spying in the UK. I think they brand these things as a fabrication.
[8:49]What I'm intrigued by is in many regards how a widespread this is, but also that it's not it doesn't seem at least on the
[8:59]surface terribly sophisticated. Well, the low-level stuff is not particularly sophisticated because they're there to gather amounts of information about how Parliament works,
[9:10]what they're doing, you know, so they can target more exactly later on. That was the whole point of the original spying trial. They're not after supersonic in involvements where they can really
[9:20]get to grips with key facts and technology. They already do that. They steal the IPs, they take over companies, they steal all of that. And today what was interesting was that the the
[9:31]minister said they posed a threat now on a whole variety of areas. You know they have a threat to uh people who have fled China. They're being threatened with bounties on their head. It's a threat to
[9:42]our industry, our manufacturing industry, threat to our security of that. We've got a threat to uh MPs like myself who have been sanctioned. A whole row of threats he announced. And then
[9:53]when I asked him, well, does China pose a continuing threat to British national security? And he wouldn't answer the question because what they won't do is say that China is an overall threat to
[10:03]our national interests because they're so desperate to get some strange trade arrangement with the Chinese government. It's pathetic really. >> Yeah. I mean, well, it may well be pathetic, but that was also the position under previous conservative governments
[10:15]as well. The government may well make the case that it is trying to strike a balance. At the end of the day, you know, China is the second most populous nation on the planet and the second
[10:25]wealthiest economy. >> Well, for what it was worth, the last government, after pressure from people like myself was about to put China in the upper tier of the foreign influence registration scheme. This government
[10:37]should have done the same. The government published a China audit that they published. They haven't published it. They now got it under lock and key. We don't know what unhelpful [music] stuff was going to come out of that was going to hurt the government. The fact
[10:48]is very you don't do a trade-off between trade and national security. National security is supreme. It's the one reason you elect governments. >> We haven't got national security. If
[10:59]we're not very wealthy, we don't. And also, let's be honest about this. All countries spy on each other, don't they? >> Oh, this is completely ridiculous argument. Honestly, what we're not very wealthy, so we can't protect our
[11:11]country. We're wealthy enough to do that, let me tell you. And the reality here is that the China poses a very significant threat to us and to many of our European friends and neighbors and
[11:22]also to the United States. Most of them recognize it. The UK government has got very weak on this. It is a complete weak attempt on their part to curry favor with the Chinese government. It's time
[11:33]they owned up to the fact China poses a distinct and continuing threat to the United Kingdom's national security. There is no question. Anybody that knows anything about it knows that to be the case. >> You saying essentially we should just
[11:45]kind of draw the drawbridge if you like that ministers shouldn't go to China anymore. I mean at what level do you want us to >> this idea that you suddenly have this this false comparison between drawing up
[11:57]the drawbridge or calling them a threat and then having much sharper tools to make sure that we stop those threats happening is a critical element. drawing up the drawbridge isn't the case because
[12:07]China and the UK will continue to engage one way or the other. And the reality to us is right now we've been importing solar arrays from China which we know had slave labor involved in them in
[12:18]Shing Jang the mining and the use of polyilicon. We've had to push the government to eventually get an amendment in to stop that happening. The government is very weak over their
[12:28]relationship with China. Lots of other countries are much tougher with them and China then respects that that sense of toughness because then they have to deal with it. With us, it looks like we're a
[12:39]complete pushover. The government is utterly failing even to call them a threat. They are a threat. They know that. Everybody else knows it. The government refuses to admit it and that's a weakness. And we got
[12:50]>> Do you think ministers you think the prime minister shouldn't visit China anymore? Now I think what he should be saying to them categorically any more of that uh the the way in which you and spy on us
[13:01]we're not going to cooperate with you that is a a a moment of strength to the government they should be saying that categoric to China respects strength for goodness sake what they think is a joke
[13:13]is the way that we are behaving about oh my god we won't get trade with China threatens everybody the whole time what you have to do is stand up to them and they will accept that they're not going to get you was a pushover.
[13:25]>> Is that a harsh reality here in Smith? I know that we that we frankly do need China more than they need us. That's the hard political reality in 2025.
[13:35]>> Not at all. That's utter rubbish. >> Really? How is that utter rubbish? >> We don't Yeah, we don't need that. There is plenty. No, there isn't. Let me Let me finish. You asked me a question. We
[13:46]don't need China by abandoning everything else that we believe in and for considering that we don't criticize China when they make mistakes or they get it wrong. That is a ludicrous position for a government to take. There
[13:58]is no peculiar choice we have to make between cowtowing to China or standing up to them. The fact is we have to set out where we are, what we believe and that as a free nation we are not going
[14:09]to put up with this any longer. China wants things from us. They want to have a super embassy in the middle of London, which is really hopeless. It'll just get an extra 200 spies involved in it.
[14:20]That's nobody else believes they should have it. None of the Europeans do, and the Americans don't, and most of the parliament doesn't believe that. But they'll probably get that granted by a weak Labor government. And I think it's
[14:31]the important feature, which is know who you are. Don't put up with nonsense from other countries, and they will respect you for it. But cowtowing to China only makes the US look wet and pathetic.
[14:43]>> Okay, Indith live for us there in Parliament. We appreciate your time. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. >> Well, let's get more on this with our panel for this evening, the former
[14:54]leader of Scottish Labor, Jim Murphy, and the Green Party P baronist Jenny Jones. Very good evening to you both. >> How are you? Hello. Hello. Um Jim, what's your sense in Dr. Smith saying
[15:05]that governments can't should stand up to China. >> Look, the relationship with China is complicated and we shouldn't pretend it isn't. It's an enormous economic opportunity for the UK. So, we have to
[15:16]engage. There's real pools of capital and investment that can come to the UK. But at the same time, we have to tell them the truth, which is that we don't tolerate their interference in our
[15:27]democracy. But it also opens questions for all of us. All of us in this country have to come to terms with to what degree are we willing to allow chi
[15:36]Chinese technology into our lives because I see these new cars on our streets, these new electric vehicles, they're Chinese manufactured. I see some
[15:46]cheaper and they work pretty well. >> They are cheap. They are cheaper. They work well. They don't drive many jobs in the UK. But what they do do is give the Chinese government if they wish in the
[15:58]future an ability to log in, listen in and act based upon anything that's going on in those cars. So for example, the last couple of days we've seen the
[16:07]Ministry of Defense say don't carry out conversations in these vehicles for fear of Chinese listening devices in them. Question for all it's a question for all of us.
[16:18]>> Okay, Jenny, what's what's your view on all of this? Well, we have to ask ourselves why these cars are so cheap and why so many products from China are so cheap. And that's because they're using slave labor and that's something
[16:29]that we should be concerned about. We do buy an awful lot from China. It is um quite often made by people like weaguers and so on who um have absolutely no
[16:39]choice in the work and be thinking about um >> making our own. just just on the on the spying stuff on the wider picture. Yeah. Are we getting the balance wrong?
[16:51]>> I think I think on the whole um we uh have to stand up to China. We have to say this isn't acceptable. But at the same time, it's very difficult to cut off all diplomatic relations with any
[17:02]country regardless. And so um I I'm delighted that um there are there are people who feel that they can talk to China, but it is a very difficult
[17:13]conversation. But at the moment, do you think that balance is right? Do you think, you know, we need to be tougher or do you think actually Labor have got a pretty good I think I think it's kind
[17:22]of challenge cooperates is kind of the the the government's argument on all this. I'm not >> and compete. I I'm well, I agree with the compete, but I I don't see them challenging very much. And I think
[17:33]that's where they fail. China's not very good at the rule of law. It actually abuses all sorts of systems, international systems, and that's something we really ought to stand up about and be clear that it's
[17:45]unacceptable. I don't see that coming out of this government. >> Jim, I put it to IDS and he obviously massively disagreed this idea that like we need China more than they need us. I
[17:55]mean, the cold hard reality in 2025 is they are a superpower. We are not. We're a middle ranking power. Look, it's a brave argument to say that a country of
[18:04]a billion people needs a country of 70 million people more than we need them. But it's an argument that Ian makes. I agree with some of the things that he had said. The truth for the UK, I think
[18:16]in the future is how do we um level the playing field in our engagement with China and it's through European allies in particular because the European Union
[18:26]of what 500 million people regrettably were no longer in the European Union but that's the new reality. operate on so therefore cooperating elsewhere cooperating I don't NATO is not the right way to do that
[18:36]>> no I'm not suggesting that but the >> through but through the Europe through European structures that coordination with France Germany ourselves multiplies our influence multiplies our power and I think that cooperation is
[18:48]the way to do >> just finally on this for both of you Jenny I'll start with you Smith brought it up at the end there about this Chinese embassy should it go ahead >> well I think not um I think you know we
[18:58]we should be thinking much more about um how we use our city and having a giant Chinese embassy and it probably isn't the best way forward. No. >> Okay. No. From you, Jim?
[19:08]>> Personally, no. But we should realize that if we if the government says no, there will be consequences. Now, we shouldn't we shouldn't um be scared of those consequences.
[19:19]But we should realize that look, and your engagement with China is I've been many times as a government minister over the years. It's a complicated set of politics that requires patience and
[19:29]diplomatic engagement. and then telling the the hard truth when necessary. But realize that for every action there's a disproportionate overreaction and we
[19:40]should just be prepared for that happening. Okay, for the moment Jenny Jim, thank you very much indeed. We're just going to take you back actually to the House of Representatives. The other story that we're following this evening,
[19:51]as you can see, h that vote is now underway into the release of those Jeffrey Epstein files. Now, this is a vote in the House of Representatives. If it passes, and the expectation is that
[20:02]it will, it will then move on to the US Senate before landing on Donald Trump's desk, he has done somewhat of an about turn, it must be said, in the last week or so, suggesting that he has no problem
[20:14]with the release of those files. But as I say, we are expecting that result some point in uh the next hour, probably before the end of the program actually, and we will bring it to you here on Sky
[20:25]News uh as we get it. Okay, you're watching the politics hub. Up next though, we'll be focusing on politics here in the UK as new figures
[20:37]show that the number of people who came to Britain in the so-called [music] Boris wave was higher than previously thought. Talk about that after the break. She's preparing [music] the ground to
[20:57]raise taxes. >> The budget. I've [music] got to do the things that I think are right. >> There are tax rises coming down from [music]
[21:09]>> You can't rule out further tax rises. It's exactly what she's going to have to do. >> She'll be talking about that when it comes to the budget. We'll be talking everything money as the chancellor [music] reveals what's in her budget.
[21:20]knows how it's going to play out if these tax rises are announced. We are under uh Israeli military
[23:32]restrictions in terms of some of the things that we can film. But it's important to be in there. >> What a slow drive for the president as
[23:41]he approaches his golf club. >> Free wherever you get your news. I'm Mark Stone and I'm Sky correspondent [music]
[23:51]based here in Washington DC. Welcome back. Now, the home secretary
[24:02]has unveiled plans for hardline asylum policies yesterday. She's attempts, of course, to tackle illegal immigration, but new figures released today show the peak for total net migration, by legal
[24:13]and irregular routes, was higher than previously thought. These figures from the Office for National Statistics, which frankly not having a good time at the moment, says that it now believes 257,000
[24:24]Britons left the UK last year, compared with a previous estimate of 77,000. essentially increased threefold. The number of British nationals who return to the UK has also been revised. It now
[24:36]stands at 143,000 compared to the previous estimate of 60,000. Meanwhile, net migration, that's the difference between the number of people entering compared to those leaving the
[24:46]country was 944,000 in the year ending to March 2023. The so-called Boris wave. That's higher than the previous estimated peak of 96,000.
[24:58]Centi as you can see that figure almost a million people. Well, there's been ongoing reaction to the home secretary's plans on asylum earlier skies tomorrow asked the reform leader Niger Farage if
[25:09]he would be voting for the proposals and here's what he had to say. >> Oh, the rhetoric of it. I mean, she sounded like she was auditioning to become a reform MP, you know. I mean I
[25:20]mean of course we liked all of that. Uh I do believe it was highly performative. I do believe it was done to sort of stave off what they see as the threat of the reform vote, particularly in the Red
[25:30]Wall. Um, but I just don't believe it's doable. I'm not sure it's going to pass the backbenches. But when it comes to how we're going to >> Why not vote for it anyway? >> Well, hang on, hang on. If if I thought it was going to work, I would vote for
[25:41]it. I do not believe. All the while the Human Rights Act is still in place with ECHR, etc., I don't believe any of this can really work. And on that basis, no. The home secretary um heard your
[25:53]invitation to defect to reform and she told you [laughter] quotes to to sod off. Uh she's also said that your uh your party's policy of abolishing indefinite leave to remain even for
[26:04]people who are here millions of people who are already here she said is immoral and shameful. What do you think about that? >> No, I think abolishing indefinitely to remain is the right way for us to go in the future. As ever with these things,
[26:15]you know, it's easier to say you won't do something in the future, but but let's go back for those that are here under indefinite leave to remain and let's find out, you know, are they actually a benefit to the country and
[26:26]then we can have a conversation. All right. What we can't do, what we can't do is to go on adding massively to the benefits bill against the interests of Britishborn people from those from
[26:37]overseas. And and you know, it's all very well and hope. I mean she herself is now saying that if you come as a as a migrant you might have to wait 20 years to get some some some categorization. So she went a long way towards our
[26:49]position. >> Hamar Cohen speaking to Nigel Farage a little earlier. As you can see by the way on the side of your screen we are looking at those pictures from the House of Representatives as that vote is
[27:00]underway on Jeffrey Epstein and those files. Uh we are expecting that to finish in the next couple of minutes or so. We will be live in DC for that. But let's bring in our panel on immigration,
[27:12]Jim Murphy and Jenny Jones. Jenny, you were signed throughout everything Nigel Farage had to say there. >> Do you know what? I've never said this before, but I do agree with Farage that the chancellor is trying to out Farage
[27:24]him. She's trying to out >> the home secretary. >> So, sorry, the home secretary, sorry. Um, and uh clearly she is sinking to a
[27:33]new low. It's absolutely incredible that a Labor government could could bring in such measures or try to. Let's hope uh some of us in the House of Lords and perhaps MPs can stop them.
[27:45]>> Jim, a new low for Labor. >> Well, I'm looking at the result that you were pointing to on our screen here in the US House of Representatives. And the result I'm actually looking for is when the Scotland game gets going in in a few
[27:56]minutes time. Um look the this issue look legal migration to our country is undoubtedly a positive. It's
[28:06]>> even at the numbers of a million people or close to >> well I was I was genuinely surprised by those numbers but in general people come to this country as my family did from Ireland and they enrich our country they
[28:17]diversify our country they contribute to our country in all sorts of different ways but there's a social deal in our country which is that there's a tolerance for a degree of legal
[28:28]migration in return for dealing with illegal migration. So what the home secretary is doing is talking about people in the future coming to this country. Personally I don't think it's
[28:39]unreasonable to say that if you come to this country by breaking our law that you shouldn't be allowed to stay in the country. Complete rubbish. You know it's not complete rubbish. It's my opinion.
[28:50]>> The big problem here is the big problem here is that Labor has not created enough safe managed routes. We've done it for Ukrainians. We've done it for a few other nationalities. Um people from
[29:00]Hong Kong for example. If we had safe, managed routes, then people would be able to come here, justify that their arrival, uh start to work, start to pay tax, start to create businesses, and
[29:11]actually be a huge benefit to our society. >> Does do the Greens believe in any migration controls? >> Oh yeah, of course we do. What is the policy? What is the policy? >> You have to have safe managed roots and labor has been completely
[29:23]>> Jenny, what would you do with Jenn first? Oh, please. >> You know what? Um, during the time I've been in the House of Lords, I've watched the Conservative government. I've watched the Labor government, and the Labor government said all sorts of
[29:34]things when they were in opposition. They are now saying the opposite. They're starting to sound like the Conservative Party. It's very distressing for somebody like me who understands, and it appears he does as
[29:44]well. Um, you know, that that migration can be extremely healthy for our country and yet Labor seems hellbent on this inhumane policy. Okay, we are going to pick this up in a second, I promise
[29:56]because it is a fascinating debate uh and one that I want to get involved in as well. But as promised, we are going to go just because we are expecting this vote now in the next minute or so or two minutes as you can see there. H in
[30:07]Washington DC in relation to the Jeffrey Epstein files. David Blevens, our US correspondent is there for us. And David, looking at that, it seems
[30:17]essentially unsurprisingly a foregone conclusion. Yes, just one Republican vote against as you can see in the nay column in the nay
[30:27]column, but very close to the end of the vote now. Just about 2 minutes left uh for the House of Representatives uh to decide what way it's going to go on this
[30:38]motion to suspend the normal rules and pass a bill on the release of the Epstein files in full. While we wait for that uh vote to conclude, let me just
[30:48]explain that if it is passed, and it is looking extremely likely, in fact, that nay vote has just switched as we speak. And that can happen, of course, right up until the gavvel falls. People can
[30:59]change their minds if they voted in error or decide to change at the last minute. But if this passes the House of Representatives, it then goes to the Senate. If it passes in the Senate, it
[31:10]lands on the desk of the president for his signature. And this is the telling bit. If it passes both the House and Senate by a twothirds majority, then the president loses any sense of veto.
[31:21]Democrats are concerned that once it goes from the House to the Senate, that there may be some amendments tabled and they fear that the files could be
[31:32]delayed or could the bill could be tampered with in some sense before it ever reaches the desk of the president. But this will be a significant moment. It looks like we're just about 40
[31:43]seconds away uh from a result. We'll know the result once the gavvel falls. Uh the person in the chair has to declare that result. And really this is
[31:53]the culmination of a remarkable campaign by women who survived the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and have been urging uh politicians on Capitol Hill for some
[32:03]time now to release the files in full. They don't want them released in some kind of redacted way. They understand there are investigations going on, but they believe it's very important for as
[32:14]much information as possible to be in the public domain and to end years of conspiracy around this issue. Uh well, there we go. As you say, that
[32:30]vote has ended. We haven't quite got the gvel hitting uh the bench there in the House of Representatives. Uh but David with that result now in it goes as you
[32:41]were suggesting to the Senate. But what I can't understand and what many people here can't understand and indeed it's not been explained why the US president himself Donald Trump is allowing this
[32:51]process to happen rather than just releasing the files which he says he's got no problem in doing so. >> Yeah, that is a question being asked by many people. It was asked on the floor
[33:03]of the House in the moments leading up to this vote. Democrats saying there's no need for a vote in the House, no need for a vote in the Senate if the president himself chooses to put all of
[33:13]this information in the public domain. He is a man, Donald Trump, who has been under some pressure around this issue really for the best part of a week. It was last Wednesday, you will recall,
[33:25]Darren, some 23,000 documents were released by the oversight committee on Capitol Hill. That's the committee investigating the crimes of uh Jeffrey
[33:34]Epstein. And uh that uh really fueled something of a storm around all of this. Not just because of the content of those files, but because at that moment four
[33:46]Republicans aligned themselves with Democrats to force the vote that we've been watching in the House right now. Uh we know that there was some pressure brought to bear from the Trump
[33:58]administration on some of those Republicans. And we also know that's been a very public row between the president and a woman who was until very recently one of his most loyal and vocal
[34:08]allies, Marjgerie Taylor Green. He has taken to calling her Marjgery Traitor Green. This morning she said he he was calling her a traitor for standing with
[34:19]these women. These women being the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's crimes and she claimed a traitor is an American uh who serves foreign countries. So a
[34:29]very public falling out between the two. But all of that going on within his own Republican party with own within his own MAGA base has brought us to the point
[34:40]really now where the House of Representatives has held a vote that many believe should have been held uh some time ago on the release of the files in full. It looks as I see the
[34:50]numbers clocking up like they're still voting despite the official time having expired. The speaker did suggest earlier
[34:58]that he expected this to be an anonym um unanimous vote when the time came. So let's just see when they finish on the gavvel falls what the number is. It's
[35:10]sitting at 373 there. So that tells us already that they have gone beyond the twothirds majority. 435 voting members in the house. So they
[35:21]only needed uh something like 290 of them to hit that twothirds majority and they've done that. >> Um okay uh David uh live for us there in
[35:31]the United States. Uh we will return to you uh once we've got uh that absolute confirmation but it does seem that uh that legislation compelling department of justice to replace more Jeffrey
[35:42]Epstein documents has won enough uh support. I just want to briefly in the briefest form return to what we talked about just a second ago because Jenny and Jim are still with us and Jenny you
[35:53]and you both feel very passionate about this subject of immigration. So my question to you is essentially why do you feel or why is it that the argument that you make is not settling
[36:04]with the majority of the British public? >> Well, I'm not sure that's true. I think the British public have a quite complex reaction. And when you start to create an atmosphere of fear and distrust,
[36:16]which is what reform has done, and then the Labor government mimics it and makes it worse, what you're doing is you're blaming all the woes of society on a group of people who are desperate for
[36:27]for safety. And instead of looking at the people who really have caused all these problems, it's inequality that causes the problems that we're facing. you know, a shortage of money for the
[36:37]for the NHS and problems with the police and and all those things. It's inequality. It's wealth going to into the hands of very few people and not being spread through society. >> Jim, just briefly on this.
[36:48]>> Yeah, I think it's a lazy and out of touch argument to say that Labour's like reform, >> but I get that that's the Green Party's core argument. I'm not Please do let me please do let me finish. Sure.
[36:59]>> But I'm not involved in politics anymore. My job is to just reflect what I think. I think that we have a responsibility to those people who are here legally to support, enable,
[37:11]educate, train, and integrate in any way and every way we can. Those people who break the rules to come here, I just don't think we have a responsibility to allow them to stay. But while they're
[37:22]here, what we should do is ensure their safety. And I worry that there's a polarization of the debate between the reform folk who want to kick everyone
[37:32]out and the Greens who want to let everyone in. >> That's not true. And I >> What would you What would you do for an illegal im What would you do if an illegal immigrant in this country? Would you want to return illegal immigrants out of this country or not?
[37:44]>> If we have um if we have a good system here in Britain, then we wouldn't have all the problems that we're facing. >> Jim, Jim, the last question was what the border controls would be for the Greens that you would implement. And you said
[37:55]more safe routes. That's not a border control in essence of trying to bring the numbers down. That is just suggesting so so if people can if if you created more safe routes and people continue to cross the channel in small
[38:07]boats what would you do with them? >> The point is that people are coming across the channel in small boats and making huge fortunes for for the um for for the people who are actually allowing
[38:17]it making it happen for them. Um it it they're still coming because there are no safe routes. If we want to stop the small boats, we make safe managed
[38:27]routes. That's the only way to do it. >> Okay. Well, it is a debate uh that is certainly going to continue and we will have to see how parliament reacts to the home secretary's proposals for the moment. Thank you very much indeed because we're going to turn on to the
[38:39]other big issue in British politics at the moment and that of course is the economy and the budget which the chancellor is set to deliver of course a week tomorrow. Well, we've sat down with Chem Badnock to get a clearer picture of what the Conservative Party would do
[38:51]with the economy. She was speaking to our deputy political editor Sam Coats and the toy leader said that she backs the triple lock pension for the moment but wouldn't explicitly rule out
[39:01]reforming it in the next parliament. Kimmy Bnock at the press conference just now you talked about the importance of stopping bankruptcy by squeezing wealth for that. That's your big message today.
[39:12]Um I just want to know where you think this has worked around the world. You've been praising the Argentinian president Y Mir Mill. Is he the model? >> Well, Argentina has a different economy
[39:23]from Britain. The principle still stands that we need to live within our means. The government needs to live within its means. It's no good telling people that it needs to take uh more taxes out of
[39:34]their pockets and then wasting it. I believe that there are a lot of people who are out of work who should be in work and we should do everything we can to help them into work. Let's get Britain working again. Because the key
[39:45]detail with him is in order to make it fair, he's cutting welfare across the board. But you differ from him in one big way, which is you are protecting
[39:55]pensioner benefits. Why is he wrong and you right? >> Well, because we are not growing at the same rate that Argentina is. Uh I believe the question you're really asking is about um the triple lock. One
[40:07]of the things that I said is that if we were growing at 2 3%, we wouldn't have a problem with pensions. Argentina is growing at 6%. What we're seeing right now is growth at 0.1%. Growth is
[40:19]flatlining. We need to start with getting growth and that means focusing on getting people into work. People working are productive. That's how we get the growth. Businesses create jobs. So, let's not punish businesses. Let's
[40:31]help them create jobs and invest. >> But I was going to ask about the the big picture of the welfare bill. Look, we spend £175 billion on benefits for pensioners, but less £141 billion on
[40:42]working aid uh benefits and children's welfare and 75 billion on benefits to support disabled people and people with health conditions. Look, you've taken
[40:51]off the table 55% of that given your rhetoric today. I is that responsible? >> It is responsible because we want people who have paid into a system to
[41:01]understand that their contribution is recognized. We don't want to punish people who are paying into the system while leaving those uh who are not paying into the system alone. That is
[41:11]why we want to start with work. We have to growth is the fundamental problem. We have to get growth. Cutting pensions does not create growth. So all we're
[41:21]doing is slicing a shrinking pie into different um into different pieces. >> How does shrinking things like welfare for uh the disabled help growth? >> Well, we're not trying to go after
[41:31]people who are disabled. We're trying to go after people who are out of work when they should be in work. When we left office in July, 2,000 people, new people a day, 2,000 new people a day were
[41:43]claiming health and sickness benefits. That number is now 5,000 new people each day claiming benefits for health and sickness. That has got to be tackled. >> And and sorry, just one more on the
[41:52]triple lock. Are you saying never ever will you look at reforming it? Look, in in 2010 when it was brought in by the Toryled coalition, I think there was a recognition that pensioners got
[42:04]something of a raw deal, but now it cost 12 billion pounds more than it did then. Is there no moment where you where you might say we're going to look again at this policy? >> That moment is not now. And I don't want
[42:15]people to be confused about what our policy is right now. Our policy is to keep the trickle lock. Let us focus on welfare. That is the question. >> I'm sorry. What do we mean by right now? So, how long does that last for? Well,
[42:26]let's see what mess labor leaves. Uh, let's see what mess labor leaves for us. But what I can't do, >> so you could change what I can't do. I have said that triple lock is conservative policy. It has been since
[42:34]2010. In 2010, we came in to fix a mess. >> But sorry, just to be clear what that means, >> repeatedly clear over the times or at the dispatch box again and again. And I will be clear now. Conservative policy
[42:45]is to keep the triple lock >> for the whole of the next parliament. >> Conservative policy is to keep the triple lock. Well, let's get more on this with the very Sam Coat who is with me in the
[42:57]studio. And Sam, an interesting answer there from Chem Bade No. The Triple Lock potentially in question or its removal, I should say. I mean, great question. I
[43:08]I have to say that the manner in which he answered that question surprised me. Um, as you just heard very clearly and and I
[43:19]saw you noticed this, um, when asked, "Can you promise to commit to the triple lock all the way through the next parliament?" There wasn't a clean answer. She said, "Let's wait and see
[43:30]what kind of mess labor leave for us." So, there was just a little bit of wiggle room there. Um, there are other conservative voices who are urging the
[43:40]Tories to look again at the triple lock. So let's just see if this is the beginning of something. Interestingly, there is pressure now to the right of Kem Bay to do something. Listen to this
[43:52]from Nigel Farage today. >> What about the triple lock on pensions? >> Open debate. Depends. Depends on the state of the economy. >> When will you decide? >> Not now. Near the election.
[44:02]>> Lots of pensioners will be quite worried about that. >> I'm sure they would be, but they're right now they're getting above inflation increases. Now that doesn't mean they're wealthy. The real worry for
[44:12]many pensioners will be even with modest pensions, this budget could drag them all into the tax system. That'll worry them even more. Uh well, fascinating all of that. Of
[44:23]course, we've just had the gavvel bang in uh Washington DC uh which I think we'll be able to uh play to you. Of course, that's the confirmation of uh
[44:34]that vote. Uh let's have uh listen into uh what's coming out of the House of Representatives >> on this vote. The yays are 427,
[44:45]the nays are won, 2/3 being in the affirmative. The rules are suspended. The bill is passed and without objection, the motion to reconsider is
[44:56]laid on the table. Well, there we go. Uh, that is official
[45:12]confirmation. A bit of two and throwing earlier on, but we do now have, as I say, confirmation the US House has has passed that bill to release those Epstein files. It will now go to the US
[45:22]Senate. David Legends is with us from Washington. And David, cheers from the public gallery, it seems there. and claps. I would just lodge you from
[45:33]Democrats members. Yes, that's right. And in the public gallery at the House of Representatives this evening are survivors of Jeffrey
[45:44]Epstein's crimes. 435 voting members. There are 427 of them have voted to suspend the rules,
[45:53]to rush through this bill, to release the Epstein files. That really is extraordinary. I counted just one Republican vote against. There were a handful of other members who didn't vote
[46:05]at all. But it does now move this to the next stage. The twothirds majority is pretty overwhelming as it makes its way this bill now to the Senate. Democrats
[46:14]are concerned that uh the Senate, which has a Republican majority of just three, could seek to tamper with the bill in some way, to add uh some amendments to it, which could result in it having to
[46:25]go back to the House of Representatives. But it becomes increasingly difficult for them to do that when you're looking at 427 members of the House of Representatives
[46:35]having weighed in behind it. And if the Senate approves it also by a twothirds majority, this bill then ends up on the desk of the President of the United States. At that point, the only thing
[46:47]standing in the way of the release of the Epstein files in full is Donald Trump's own signature. Asked yesterday if he would be prepared to sign it, he
[46:57]said, "Sure, I would." But things have moved remarkably quickly since the oversight committee, that congressional committee on Capitol Hill released
[47:06]23,000 documents from the Epstein estate last Wednesday. That really was the moment when four Republicans crossed the floor, so to speak, aligned with
[47:16]Democrats to force this vote this evening. And really it means the effort uh to bring the Epstein files out into the public has cleared the first of
[47:27]three very significant hurdles. Okay, David live there for us in Washington DC. Thank you very much indeed. And of course we'll have continuing coverage of uh the consequences of that vote throughout the
[47:38]night here on Sky News. Let's return now though to the economy, the debate we were just having uh before we got confirmation of that vote, particularly around the triple lock. Timmy, it's
[47:50]fascinating that we are starting to question this that even parties that have been pretty resolute on backing it are starting to question whether the triple lock is a sensible policy to have.
[48:02]>> I don't know what Labour's going to do and I'm not sure that anybody does know what Labour's going to do. >> I don't even know where number 11 to be fair. Well, quite we had um we had a minister in front of us in the House of Lords today and we were asking him
[48:12]questions and he stonewalled us. He refused to give us any uh answers and he just kept saying I refuse to speculate. Now, in fact, of course, the government's leaked so many little
[48:23]snippets about this budget that that they have invited speculation and that's actually probably not very healthy because we want what we want is a strong government. >> Just particularly on the triple lock
[48:33]though, I mean would you for example like to see it roll back? Do you think we can afford it? >> I at the moment it seems a sensible way forward. Um quite honestly I don't know what our policy is on the triple lock um
[48:45]because I didn't know we were going to discuss it this evening and so I didn't check. Um but at your personal view though >> I suppose it it seems like a sense of a way forward at the moment and god am I
[48:57]going to agree with far again? Um it sort of does depend on how the economy performs >> which is potentially not very good. I
[49:06]think it is affordable um if the economy um outperforms some of the projections but the government and business and their international partners have got to
[49:16]do more. These global tariffs are damaging. Um uh lack of connectivity to the EU is damaging and the investment environment has to be
[49:28]predictable for major investors into the UK. >> Is it we've got an aging population. Is it fair that younger people are going to have to pay more tax, probably more
[49:38]income tax, even if it just means moving the thresholds to help fund pensioners? >> Well, look, there isn't there's >> can't afford to buy a house for >> Yeah, there is generational disadvantage
[49:48]in this country. Um, it cascades down the generations and the tax system reinforces that. That's just a fact. Now, if you want to I'm not in politics
[49:57]anymore. Jenny and other people are, but if you want to win an election in this country, you've got to persuade people to go and vote for your policies. That's a well- tested and the right way to to
[50:07]go about these things. And but when there's such generational disadvantage that affects the people who vote in the smallest numbers to the benefit of those people who vote to the largest the largest numbers, I think we have to look
[50:19]at the tax system. But the solution to all of this is a growing economy. Well, I mean, yes, and I think everyone would love to see a growing economy. Whether we're going to see that or not is a big challenge, of course, for the Labour
[50:29]Party, isn't it? And that budget is next Wednesday, but there'll be little doubt that despite what Jenny said, there's probably going to be continued speculation, maybe even some more links,
[50:40]leaks as we get closer to it. It's going to feature, of course, in tomorrow's papers. And we've got our extended press preview from 10:30 this evening with tonight's news and tomorrow's headlines. H joining us tonight is the journalist
[50:51]and broadcaster Jenny Kleman and the columnist and lead writer of the Times Sebastian Payne. Okay, we're going to take a quick break here on the politics hub. Up next, as
[51:01]the prime minister has heads to Berlin, racking up yet more miles, we'll be asking whether appearing on the world
[51:07]stage is helping him back here at home. >> She's [music] preparing the ground to
[51:17]raise taxes. the budget. I've got to do the things that I think are right. [music] There are tax rises coming down. >> You can't rule out further tax rises.
[51:30]It's exactly [music] what she's going to have to do. >> She'll be talking about that. When it comes to the budget, we'll be talking everything money as a chancellor reveals what's in her budget. >> Miss knows how it's going to play out if
[51:41]these tax rises are announced. It's like a football final with only one team on the pitch. This isn't just a
[51:51]call to vote, but a call to remember. The freedom fought for by the African National Congress. I'm Yustra Albar, Sky Africa correspondent [music] based in
[52:02]Johannesburg, South Africa. A cyclone and two burst dams wiped out hundreds of generational homes. This was the second dam that the flood waters hit
[52:14]before it tore into Dna. >> We are in the heart of Nairobi and we're watching as protesters were heavily tear gas. >> The sheer fearlessness and persistence
[52:25]of these guys is astonishing. >> We help you understand the world with us. I remember going into the iconic Urman
[52:37]market in the heart of Sudan's capital for the first time since the war started and this is what's left of it. Bullet holes through buildings, shelled
[52:46]balconies, bullet cases on the floor. I witnessed the complete destruction of a place linked to my childhood memories and the lives of millions of people.
[52:58]>> This is insane. This was a bustling residential area. So many friends who lived here. My most memorable interview was with a
[53:10]15year-old boy who'd survived being stranded on a migrant boat on its way from Sagal [music] to the Canary Islands.
[53:19]>> After 13 days, our food, water, and fuel supply ran out. >> I felt awe when we saw the mountain gorillas in Rwanda. They call him the
[53:29]king of the jungle. This is the alpha silver back. >> Sky News. Get the full story first. Yur
[53:39]Sky News. >> Right. Welcome back to the politics hub. Now, given the difficulties facing the prime minister at home, you could maybe
[53:50]hardly blame the prime minister for wanting to escape. And as it happens, he is on his way to Berlin today for the latest in a long list of foreign trips. In fact, according to the Times
[54:00]newspaper, by the end of the month, he'll have spent one sixth of his premiership abroad and have completed six laps around the Earth. Here's some
[54:10]of the places he's escaped to. >> I've beenwhere [music] cross the desert, man. I breathe the
[54:20]mountain air, man. I've traveled. I've had my [music] share, man. I've been everywhere. I've been everywhere.
[54:35][music] [music] uh certainly been around the world
[54:56]ticking off those countries. Is it a bad thing? Now, Jim and Jenny are with me. Jim, we've been a little bit harsh here. At the end of the day, being prime minister also means traveling and representing the country abroad.
[55:07]>> It does. the the the most important thing I think he can achieve in all of these travels is trying to keep the sort of western democratic coalition together
[55:16]at a time when the US's commitment to it is open to question. So I actually celebrate the fact that on many of these trips it's been about keeping that
[55:26]European cohesion while being a Trump whisperer. Well, because ultimately all the things we've been talking about this evening, public services, the triple lock and everything else,
[55:36]>> if Trump renegades on article five of NATO commitment, which is a defense of one, an attack on once an attack on all, >> the UK and others would unfortunately have to rearm at a level that makes
[55:48]other things unaffordable. So if Kia achieves nothing else in his travels other than keeping Trump committed >> okay to some degree in to the western
[55:58]alliance then every one of these air miles is a great investment. >> Jenny, what about you about I mean because it's not just him that's been accused of politicians in the past and you know when when things are tough at home it's important to look kind of good
[56:10]on the world stage. Do you think that's what's happening here or do you think >> I think that's probably what he thinks is happening but in fact what we need here now is strong stable leadership and we're not getting that from the Labour party and we're definitely not getting
[56:22]it from the prime minister. I I met him a few times before he was elected as an MP and he came across as an honorable principal person. He didn't come across as a leader and I think that's what's
[56:33]happening here. He doesn't understand how to lead and hence all the problems at number 10 and all the leaks and and all the changes of mood and changes of mind. >> Just in the space of 15 seconds, is he
[56:44]more comfortable on the world stage than he is in the T- rooms of the Commons? That's been an accusation accused. >> Well, I've not been in the T- rooms of the Commons with [laughter] him. But I do know that in the work that he's doing internationally. If he wasn't doing it,
[56:56]we'd be having a conversation saying, "Why isn't Kia Star whispering to Trump?" Okay, Jim Murphy Jenny, thank you very much indeed for joining us here on the politics hub this evening. Thank
[57:06]you. H Well, that is it from us for [music] tonight. I'm going on holiday myself for a couple of days. Matt Bobette will be with you from 7 tomorrow. Up next, it is the UK tonight
[57:16][music] with Sarah Jamie, including more on that China spying scandal. Stay tuned for that and I'll see you on Monday. Good evening.