[0:03]Hi everybody, I'm Britney Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes. Joining me now is Texas State Representative Anne Johnson, who also served as a chief human trafficking prosecutor. Representative, thank you so much for joining me.
[0:14]>> Thank you for having me. It's honored to be with you. >> I'm really grateful for your expertise here in this conversation and your perspective because you were a human trafficking expert. Can you talk to us a
[0:24]little bit about your background there? >> Certainly. Back in 2007, I was doing indigent defense work for children and I got appointed to represent a 13-year-old
[0:35]little girl who was charged with prostitution in the state of Texas. I believed that that was wrong. I believed that the state ought to be focusing on who were the people that were abusing
[0:46]that child and who were the individuals that were selling that child. And it took years to get that case to the Texas Supreme Court. But I am proud to tell the nation that the Texas Supreme Court
[0:57]got it right and said that child BW is a victim and the focus of our policy should be to go after those that are exploiting the child. I then became the
[1:09]chief human trafficking prosecutor in Harris County around 2013 and had the honor of starting that division as one of the first individuals in Texas's
[1:18]lawyer to actually prosecute and go after what I'm going to call this trifecta of folks involved in trafficking. You'll have an individual
[1:30]that sells a human being. You have an individual that is sold. But what we're really talking about here in these Epstein files is the demand, the buyers,
[1:42]the people that want to purchase, and how many people in trafficking think that they can get away with basic child
[1:50]abuse that we all find abborant, but they can get away from it simply because they offer money to a middleman to provide the child for their sexual pleasure.
[2:02]The Epstein Files is about a lot more than just Epstein. It's about our nation recognizing that we will no longer tolerate this behavior and we will not allow the wealthy and the privileged to
[2:13]shield themselves from responsibility. >> I do want to dive in and talk about what we've learned so far about the Epstein files and what was in them because last month the Department of Justice released over three million more materials
[2:25]related to the disgraced finance year and convicted sex offender. And we all know about Jeffrey Epstein, right? He's a convicted sex offender. He's a pedophile. But what we're continuing to
[2:35]learn is just how deep the relationships he had with the rich and powerful and the well-connected all around the world. And the DOJ released these documents well past the December 19th date that
[2:47]the Epstein Files Transparency Act gave. But we're learning more now based on all these millions of documents. So to start off the conversation from the perspective of someone who represented
[2:57]victims of sexual exploitation, what are some of your takeaways and specifically from your earlier point, what if anything are you learning about the buyers? I mean, you absolutely have to
[3:08]give credit to the victims and the fact that the victims are dogged and their requirement that there be transparency and exposure of the demand side, the
[3:18]buyers, they lived as victims and often times children are groomed into not only a situation where they can be abused, but often times they think they did
[3:29]something wrong or they deserve it. I'm not surprised to see this group of victims who have now reached an age where they are mothers and they are now
[3:38]recognizing that it is up to them to protect the future children because they were not protected in that moment. And so now when you look back and look into
[3:50]the history of Ebstein, the parties, the events, the island, the fact that there were rapists, there were abusers that were taking advantage of the fact that
[4:00]not only does it appear that Epstein is a pedophile, but he is a trafficker. He is in essence a pimp. He was supplying these young girls so that other men of
[4:12]power and privilege could abuse them believing that it would continue to be shielded from the halls of Hollywood to government to Wall Street and worldwide.
[4:23]And so the fact that these victims today will not let it go and are trying to ensure that there is some level of transparency into who bought them, who
[4:34]abused them, and who were the other people around that effectively condoned it by not saying anything at the time. And so if we really are as a nation
[4:44]going to acknowledge that for long time people had it wrong. People thought boys will just be boys that somehow this was acceptable behavior. That victims were
[4:55]shamed and groomed into believing that they had done something wrong and deserved the abuse that had happened to them. These women are a credit to not only writing this wrong, but ensuring
[5:06]that this powerful society does not attempt to continue to engage in it or engage in it in the future. And that's why we absolutely need some level of transparency we're not getting from the
[5:18]Trump Department of Justice. >> I want to talk about how you think that investigation's going because, as I said earlier, over three million documents have been released so far. There's
[5:28]apparently three million more that are not being released. The Department of Justice said they're not releasing any more documents. But just this week, two lawmakers, it was a bipartisan duo, a Republican and a Democrat in the House,
[5:39]reviewed the unredacted files. And after that, the DOJ released the unredacted parts of a 2019 FBI document that listed three people as co-conspirators of
[5:50]Epstein's. One of them being Les Wexner, who is the former CEO of Victoria's Secrets parent company. And Roana, he's a congressman, one of them who reviewed the unredacted files. He said, "If we
[6:01]found six men that they were hiding in two hours, imagine how many men they are covering up up for in those three million files." What do you make of that? And what do you make of the redactions that you're seeing coming out
[6:13]of the DOJ? >> Well, if you're going to redact a file, it is typically to protect the victim. You're looking for pseudonyms. You're looking for initials and to protect the
[6:24]victim. But in this case, it's the victims that are being doxed. It's the victims that are being put out there and the perpetrators that seem to be getting redacted. Co-conspirator. Co-conspirator
[6:36]means somebody that is engaged in the criminal conduct of the trafficker. And so you would expect that those are the demand, the perpetrators, the buyers.
[6:46]And so you see this particular Department of Justice turning everything on its head, exposing the victims and protecting the perpetrators. And so I am
[6:55]grateful that this is a bipartisan congressional approach where you have two members of Congress who have had the backing of these women to say we're going to continue to push this issue
[7:07]because these women are telling us that the most rich and powerful individuals not only in the nation but in the world were engaged in this trafficking ring.
[7:17]And so at a time where everybody talks about wanting to protect victims of human trafficking, you can't do that here when you have the largest trafficking ring at the highest levels
[7:28]of power that are being and continue to be uh redacted, protected, and shielded by the attorney general herself, Pam
[7:37]Bondi, in that hearing in which the victim stood and said, "Look at me." And she basically told the nation, "Don't look at them. Look at the Dow. That is
[7:48]indicative of the entire corruption of which these powerful men think that they can get away with it because it has something to do with money. And so I am proud that the nation I hope has a
[8:00]resounding response that says no. This is about actually healing the pain of the women who suffered this abuse. and you cannot distract us with the idea
[8:10]that somehow the Dow Jones is more important than protecting the integrity of the judiciary system. >> I think what's startling for a lot of people when they're looking at these documents because I'm sure the people
[8:22]who were writing these emails, they never thought they were going to see the light of day, right? And now we're seeing their communications, their interactions, we're seeing how deep these relationships were. When some of
[8:33]these people publicly they said one thing, they distanced themselves from Epstein. Now we're seeing a different story come to light here and it really feels like for a lot of people that the elite who are mentioned in this believe
[8:44]that they are operating on a different playing field than the rest of the than the rest of the world really. And you mentioned that um that hearing that Attorney General Pam Bondi was in that she was testifying in front of the House
[8:56]Judiciary Committee earlier this week. It was very fiery when the Epstein files were brought up. And during one moment, Congressman Jamie Rascin, he said to Bondi, "You're running a massive Epstein
[9:08]coverup right out of the Department of Justice." He went on to say this, "You redacted the names of abusers, enablers, accompllices, and co-conspirators, apparently to spare them embarrassment and disgrace, which is the exact
[9:19]opposite of what the law ordered you to do. Even worse, you shockingly failed to redact many of the victim's names, which is what you were ordered to do by Congress." Do you agree with him there? Would you think you would go as far to
[9:29]say that the DOJ is running a cover up when it comes to these Epstein documents? >> Yeah, I mean this is a completely unique circumstance. I mean this is one trial and one case in which Congress passed a
[9:41]law to say we want transparency behind this particular file. And while the Department of Justice or law enforcement may have normal methods of what becomes public and what doesn't, this is
[9:52]completely different. There has been such a public outcry. In fact, Trump ran and said that he would release the Epstein files. And now it looks like the whole purpose of getting there was to
[10:04]actually shield him. And so when Congressman Raskin says that Congress had said in this particular case, you must release the entire file and by a
[10:14]date certain, that is completely unique. The entire nation, the entire public, both Republican and Democrat said that this one case needs to be put out there
[10:26]for the purpose of the transparency of healing not only what has happened to the victims, but how Epstein represents the whole case represents the entire
[10:36]nation trying to move towards protecting children. And so I've seen my Republican colleagues often jump up and down about what they think are in books and libraries or school activities claiming
[10:47]to protect children. But now that it looks like it's Trump and Hen's inner circle that is what's being named in these files, they are going beyond to try to continue to shield it. And that
[10:58]goes straight to the attorney general. Um it's appalling. The attorney general and the department of justice is supposed to represent the United States and each and
[11:09]every citizen, not the elected president. The job is to serve us, not him. What we're learning from the materials that have been released is that Epste had relationships around the
[11:20]world. He was well connected with the rich and the powerful around the globe. And since these Epstein files came out, there's been fallout worldwide. And I
[11:31]was talking to a guest earlier this week about that fallout and how other countries are handling it. And I was speaking with an English historian and we were talking about how Prime Minister Kier Starmer's job was threatened
[11:42]earlier this week because of what was revealed about someone that he appointed to the UK ambassador to the US. And Starmmer never even met Epstein ever in his life, never had a relationship with
[11:53]him. Yet his job was on the line. The king also indicated that the royal family would cooperate into an investigation into his little brother, the former Prince Andrew. Some of the
[12:05]people mentioned in these files have faced questions since the nature of their relationship with Jeffrey Epstein was revealed. Some have faced personal and professional consequences. However,
[12:15]most have not. So, do you think that the United States is doing enough to hold people accountable? What do you think needs to be done here? I mean, I think there has been public outcry, but I
[12:25]think as a nation, you have a you have a choice right now. You can either stand with the victims or you can stand with Trump. And that seems to be the clear divide here. And so, the victims are
[12:36]telling you that there are individuals who have not yet been held to account. They are telling you that they were raped by men in power that they want the world to know and hold them accountable.
[12:47]And you are seeing the world respond in a way to hold people that are accountable. And let's be clear, co-conspirator doesn't mean witness necessarily. Doesn't mean person of
[12:58]interest. That means somebody that they found is part of a crime. And there are obviously going to be people that may have committed crimes that have not been prosecuted. And there may just be people
[13:09]that were witnesses. You don't know that distinction or that difference until these files actually come out. and the fact that Pam Bondi and those at the Department of Justice are doing
[13:20]everything that they can to seemingly redact the information on Trump's inner circle when they are at the seat of American power. That should frighten
[13:30]everybody. The election should about transparency, integrity, and releasing those files. And it sure does look like it became the greatest opportunity for
[13:41]them to cover it up. And so I am grateful that the women are holding strong, that with everything that is happening to them right now, they continue to doggedly say that this
[13:52]victim population needs to be protected. It's not just about them. It's about the integrity of the system and whether or not we're truly going to protect children going forward. And so I I pray
[14:04]that this nation responds in the way that we've seen the world, which is to stand with the victims, not with the perpetrators, and not with the corrupt system right now that's trying to redact
[14:16]and keep those men from being exposed. There have been long been calls for transparency when it comes to details about Jeffrey Epstein, who was in his network, what exactly that really looked
[14:26]like. And it seems like a lot of people, according to a recent Reuters Ipsos poll, only 21% of Americans approve of the way the administration's handling information related to Epstein. And
[14:38]around 3 million more documents, as I said, related to Epstein. They're not being released to the public. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch said there's not some trunch of super secret documents about Jeffrey Epstein that
[14:49]we're withholding. What do you make of that? What's your reaction to that? A and B, what questions do you have? What do you exactly want to see next? >> Again, this is a completely different
[15:00]circumstance. This is not your garden variety criminal case. This is a criminal case in which the United States Congress and the United States Senate said, "You should release the
[15:11]information in this particular case because of the public and national interest that has been brought up because of these victims and the stories that are yet to be told and exposed and
[15:22]the people that have raped and abused them for it looks like years. And so this is unique and either the rule of
[15:31]law and the people that you elected that took a vote that you asked them to take and now the administration is not following that law, either that rule of
[15:42]law means something or it doesn't. And so for every voter that thought that when Trump said that he was going to release the files, when they put out
[15:52]those those um binders and said, "Here it comes. Here it starts to now know that that was a complete sham. That was
[16:02]a complete fraud. And it seems all it was was about putting his people in power that would keep that information secret. And so they're not complying
[16:12]with the law. They're not complying with a public vote. And this is a unique situation in which the entire nation has said that they want to see it. They want
[16:22]the transparency on it. And it is now law. And they clearly are not following it. And so I think you have two questions. One, what do you do about the Department of Justice failing to comply
[16:33]with the most recent law passed by Congress and the Senate? And what do you do about the fact that the people in power seem to potentially be continuing to shield their inner circle from public
[16:44]view on a pedophile ring that reaches all levels of power and wealth in this nation? And it seems like we don't even
[16:54]know the true extent of where this reaches. And I think at the heart of this, obviously, it's disgusting. We're talking about victims of sexual exploitation, victims of sex
[17:06]trafficking, some of them minors. I mean, it's just so tragic. And yet, we're seeing this political theater sometimes, this political circus, this fighting, this partisan bomb throwing
[17:18]really when it comes to what calls for transparency. But if you had the opportunity to sit across from Attorney General Bondi, what exactly would you ask her? >> I would ask her why she's not following
[17:29]the current law. I mean, she's the attorney general, but this particular incident, Congress most recently passed a law that says you need to turn over this file and she's not doing it. And
[17:41]so, why are you not following the law? What's in there that you're afraid of? And who in particular are you trying to protect? because it sure does seem like she's not serving the people of the United States or the victim population
[17:52]in this world. It seems like she's serving the person who appointed her to the position. And so I think everybody needs to look at that. Um it is potentially a disgrace and and I
[18:04]have had the opportunity to represent victims and there are victims at every part of this nation. Human trafficking is a massive issue and it is something
[18:14]that we all need to be ready to combat. But if you can't combat that and you can't be honest about the largest
[18:25]trafficking ring known known he is convicted by a jury and everybody knows it. If you can't expose the truth around that because the people who were raping
[18:37]these children could get on private jets and fly to private islands, then it does show you that there is a billionaire or wealthy class that is being protected at the highest levels of government. And
[18:49]that has to offend every citizen, not only in this nation, but in the world. >> And I'm not a lawyer, so explain this to me because I just have a question. If
[18:59]the deputy attorney general is saying there's not super secret documents on Epstein that we're withholding and there's three million that are being withheld and let's say and obviously if
[19:10]there's sensitive information about victims obviously redact that of course why not release it then >> I don't know I I can't you can't answer that question like if there's nothing
[19:20]that needs to be shielded because it's super secret then why do you have black lines all over the paragraph so we the public can't see what's behind it. Every time you see one of those blacked out
[19:32]boxes, there is clearly words on the other side of that page that this administration doesn't want everyday Americans to see. And so, if it's not a secret, why are you why are you putting
[19:43]the black shield on the page? Let it out. And again, this is not a normal prosecution. This is not a normal case where everyday individuals can say, "Look, I'd like to see that file."
[19:53]There's public information on just about every filing, but to see the full case, that's not normal. This is extraordinary. But it's extraordinary because the Congress and the Senate
[20:04]almost unanimously voted that this particular file and this particular piece of information needed to be released to the public. And so the fact
[20:13]that they continue to one violate that law, they are violating that law that just got passed that most Americans knew
[20:23]about the vote and called in and said, "You're my representative. I want you to vote this way. I want the exposure on this issue." And in part, it is because
[20:32]the nation wants to heal its own soul around this wrongdoing. And this is no different than any other level of abuse that as a nation you look at, whether
[20:42]it's a church scandal or a camp scandal. You get beyond it and then you realize what the nation had done wrong that allowed those children to be victimized
[20:52]and you do better. But we can't do better here by the people that need it because the highest level of government right now, the Department of Justice,
[21:02]while the president's name is riddled throughout these files, continues to publish pages with blacked out sections on it despite the fact that the law says stop doing it. They should protect the
[21:14]victims. And I would understand if they said we're trying to shield the victim information, but we know that they didn't because they've been putting that information out. So this is either incompetent or pure levels of
[21:26]corruption. And I think that's the question that continues to be raised by people is whose interest do they really serve? And it sure doesn't look like it's the victims. When when Pam Bondi
[21:37]can't turn around and look at the victims, that should tell you a whole lot. And the fact that the victims continue to come to Congress and to stand there and to highlight, let me tell you, every one of those women and
[21:49]they know it because they know the shame they felt and they know how they were not heard or seen. When they stand there, they stand there for thousands of victims of abuse that right now are not
[22:00]being heard from and don't have the strength to stand up. And so, thank God for those women and those are the folks that we should be protecting and taking
[22:09]cues from them when they are telling us there is vital information that this nation doesn't know about its own pain and how to move beyond into healing and
[22:21]some level of protection of actual children. >> Congressman Massie said that this was a scandal that was worse than Watergate. So, I'm sure as we continue to look at
[22:30]these documents, more will be revealed. Congress is going in. They are going to be seeing the unredacted documents. I'm sure more will be revealed then. And as this investigation continues, I hope you and I can have another conversation on
[22:42]what we're learning and where we're at. Representative, thank you so much for the time today and your expertise. You're welcome back anytime. >> Pleasure to be with you. Thank you.