[0:00]Over the summer, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch conducted a two-day interview with longtime Jeffrey Epstein associate Galain Maxwell. Maxwell is currently serving a 20-year sentence after being found guilty of sex
[0:11]trafficking charges in connection to Epstein. During her meeting with Blanch, she claimed to have never witnessed any inappropriate behavior and that she never saw President Trump engage in any
[0:21]wrongdoing. After the meeting, she was transferred from her prison in Florida to a minimum security facility in Texas, the type of prison camp that typically does not allow sex offenders. Her emails that she sent since her move to the
[0:33]Lonear State show she's received preferential treatment from the warden, benefits from a host of privileges not usually provided to other inmates, and writes in a tone that is quote notably
[0:43]free of regret, remorse, shame, and self-doubt. According to Atlantic staff writer Isaac Stanley Becker, who obtained the correspondence, Stanley Becker joins Forb's true crime to discuss his takeaways from Maxwell's
[0:55]emails from prison. Hi everybody, I'm Britney Lewis, the host of Forbes True Crime. Joining me now is Isaac Stanley Becker, staff
[1:07]writer at The Atlantic. Isaac, thanks so much for joining me. >> It's great to be with you. In the past few weeks, troves of emails and text messages sent to and from Jeffrey Epstein, released by the House
[1:18]Oversight Committee, have really been driving the headlines. But you have some reporting on the emails that Gain Maxwell, Epstein's accomplice, has been sending from prison. So to start off the conversation, what did you learn from
[1:29]this correspondence? Yeah, I was really interested in looking at these emails because as you mentioned there's been so much attention on Jeffrey Epstein and a kind of drip drip of release of some of
[1:40]his communications. Um, but Jeffrey Epstein is dead and there is someone who was convicted of crimes, you know, related to his conduct who is still
[1:50]living and and that's Gain Maxwell. So over the past couple months, she's been emailing um uh family members of hers as well as a member of her legal team and
[1:59]describing the vastly improved conditions at this new prison in Texas that she was transferred to. So she had been held at a facility in Tallahassee in Florida and then she was moved to
[2:11]this facility in Texas shortly after her interview uh in July with the number two at the Justice Department, Todd Blanch. And it's it's unusual for a number of reasons. I mean, most starkly just the
[2:23]fact that Bureau of Prisons guidelines state that sex offenders are supposed to be held at a low security prison minimum. Uh, and this is less than that. It's minimum security. So, that's
[2:35]unusual for starters. And then in the emails, the tone of the emails is is really cheerful and um kind of grateful because what she's doing is kind of
[2:43]reveling in the um uh vastly improved situation she's in and also the the kind of particular treatment and even perks
[2:53]that she's getting at this facility. So most most starkly to me, she has this very unusual relationship with a warden of the prison where the warden is acting as this kind of go-between for her with
[3:04]her legal team, emailing documents, scanning documents, um setting up and kind of facilitating particular visits by members of her family, clearing those visits, allowing them to bring in
[3:15]personal technology, ensuring they get snacks and drinks during the visits. So, she's really quite happy. She's been quite happy over the past couple months and it's easy to see why because she is
[3:25]in this relatively comfortable situation in prison. >> I want to talk about all of that, but first I think we should start with the tone because that was most shocking to
[3:34]me in your piece. I listened to a lot of the interview with Glen Maxwell and Deputy Attorney General uh Todd Blanch and what struck me the most about those
[3:44]conversations, those tapes, was that the tone a lot of the time in her conversation didn't really match what exactly they were talking about. And Ghislaine Maxwell in 2021, she was sentenced
[3:55]to 20 years. She was found guilty of really heinous sex crimes, some involving minors. She was a member of the elite. Now she's a pariah in all of polite society. She's most notoriously
[4:06]known as Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice. But you're reporting that there was not a shred of remorse, self-reflection, sadness for the victims in these emails.
[4:17]I mean, dive a little deeper in there for us. >> Yeah, Britney, I was I was I didn't know exactly what to expect when I first uh started sifting through these, but I thought that there would be some kind of
[4:27]sadness in them if not for the victims, then for kind of her own situation, her own conditions. This is a person who, as you said, has had a kind of spectacular
[4:37]fall from grace, a member of high society, coordinating with politicians, business elites, academics, and now she's serving a 20-year prison sentence. So, I expected there to be some kind of
[4:49]sadness. Again, if not for the victims, for her, but at least in the dozens of emails that I reviewed, there isn't a trace of that. Now, it's possible that this is just one piece of it and maybe
[4:59]it's not representative of the kind of larger um set of emails that she's sending, but if this is representative, it's it's absolutely um devoid of of
[5:10]that kind of emotion. And what it is is cheerful and optimistic and talking about uh vacation destinations that she likes. She talks about Cro how, you know, she loves Croatia. It's one of her
[5:21]favorite places in the world. one of her family members was visiting there or was emailing her from there. Uh she she uses little expressions like we it gladdens the cockals of my heart and and remarks
[5:32]on that as a as a classic English expression. So uh it's it's the way one would email under ordinary circumstances uh with with with family members and
[5:43]with others. Um it's I found that really striking. >> The timing of this all is really important, right? because Maxwell was moved to that Kushy prison camp in Texas after that summer meeting with the
[5:54]number two at the DOJ deputy attorney general Todd Blanch. So when you're looking at these emails, what are the perks that she's describing now at this new Texas camp?
[6:05]>> Right. I mean, I think that the notable thing here is the contrast. So, of course, there are still limitations. she's she's um being being held here. Um
[6:15]and it's it's not the kind of life that she once had, of course, but I think the contrast is really what's striking and what has sunk in on her. The way she described the facility in Tallahassee
[6:25]was really bleak. She described it as lawless. She said it was filthy. There was vermin everywhere. People got into fights. She's described drug deals. And again, this is in her telling and maybe
[6:35]it's an exaggeration. And the facility in Texas is just worlds away from that. and the the kind of unusual treatment that she's getting is wide ranging. And
[6:45]this this this I I I learned this both through the emails and also talking to other people who are familiar with with her situation there and it ranges from everything to uh special access to
[6:57]toilet paper. So um you know this is a really severe um situation where ordinarily inmates are allotted two rolls of toilet paper a week and then they have to buy more from the
[7:08]commissary with a rather meager wages that they earn from tasks they perform in prison or from other uh resources that they may have and and um you know I was told that other inmates have
[7:20]resorted to using toilet using paper towels to wipe themselves. Uh but for whatever reason, Galain Maxwell has been allowed an unlimited supply. They basically they've stockpiled toilet
[7:30]paper for her use. Uh she doesn't uh receive visitors in the ordinary space where other inmates receive visitors. She receives them in a special in the prison's chapel apart from the others.
[7:42]Uh she um they have access to drinks and snacks when she's meeting with members of her legal team who've been authorized by the warden specifically to bring in
[7:52]personal electronics. And then the the thing that that most struck me as I mentioned is this very unusual relationship with a warden where it's almost as if the warden who you know is the is the leader of this facility
[8:03]overseeing I think it's about 650 inmates is acting almost as a kind of legal secretary for her team scanning and emailing documents making sure they have they have what they need uh
[8:14]arranging particular visits authorizing the use of of personal um technology and I spoke to uh defense attorneys in the in in the area in this part of Texas,
[8:24]seasoned defense attorneys, including some who've represented clients who've been held at this facility. And they said that this is just so outside the
[8:33]norm. Um, one likened it to the CEO of a major company attending to the concerns of an individual customer. They said
[8:43]that the warden just does not engage and interface with individual inmates like this. So because of that, because of just how unusual that relationship is, obviously
[8:54]the next question would be why is the warden acting this way based on what you've read in these emails, is there any answer to that question? >> This is really the mystery and I wasn't
[9:04]able to arrive at a satisfying answer to this. And I should say I sought answers from the warden. the word and had a had an opportunity before my story published to uh you know go point by point through
[9:16]some of the um aspects of her dealings with Gla Maxwell and to to explain and talk about the kind of instructions she's been given. So this remains somewhat of a mystery. One of the
[9:26]defense attorneys I spoke to um put it this way. He said really there's only two possible explanations. One is that this warden has some kind of special relationship, special loyalty or
[9:37]feelalty to to Glame Maxwell. And and we just have to think of that as is extremely unlikely. You know, why would this warden at this random facility uh in Texas, 90 minutes from Houston, have
[9:48]some particular relationship with Galain Maxwell? And the other possible explanation is that she was given some sort of instructions by higherups at the Department of Justice in the Trump
[10:00]administration to attend to this inmate. in a particular way and that would be really concerning. >> And based on what she said to Todd Blanch in those summer meetings, she
[10:10]said that according to her, she never witnessed anything inappropriate when it came to the world of Jeffrey Epstein. She had really complimentary things to say about President Trump. She kind of
[10:20]distanced President Trump from Epstein. Said they weren't really close friends. She said something to the effect of, "He's always been a gentleman or I've never seen him act inappropriate." Does it seem based on your reporting, based
[10:30]on what she's saying that that meeting and what she said benefited her and now that's why she's experiencing this better treatment? >> I can't point to a cause and effect, but
[10:42]it certainly seems that she went out of her way to um uh both both try to exonerate um President Trump of any kind
[10:53]of improper conduct and then beyond that just to just to praise him to say that she admired him. she admired his election victory which really goes beyond the scope of what she was being
[11:04]interviewed about and and and the kind of realm of the the set of knowledge that she has about the issue at hand here. Um, you know, I should also say
[11:13]she at at that point back in July still she was she was hoping to have the Supreme Court review her case. she was appealing and in October the Supreme
[11:23]Court declined to hear that appeal and and and after that point um uh the basically the last best hope she has is
[11:33]some form of clemency from Trump's uh you know some form of commutation or a pardon and in these emails it was suggested that she was preparing that kind of application but I think that
[11:45]just underscores the um level of of of control and um you know how much power President Trump has over her fate and
[11:57]how really that is now her last chance to get early release uh and not serve the remainder [clears throat] and not serve the remainder of this lengthy sentence.
[12:08]>> And at this prison camp, she's not the only big name there. There's Elizabeth Holmes of Theronos, the former real housewife of Salt Lake City, Jen Shaw. Is there any indication of how Glenn
[12:20]Maxwell is interacting if at all with any of these prisoners and if any other prisoner is even getting the same level of treatment that she's getting? >> Yeah, it's a really good question. I
[12:31]should say I I didn't do an exhaustive account of uh each inmate's uh situation or conditions in this facility, but I was able to learn you a little bit in in
[12:41]in the course of the reporting about the way in which an inmate's uh situation is oftentimes shaped by their personality, by their way of relating or interacting
[12:52]to to others. And so that may have an effect on the type of treatment they get, um the sort of situation they're in, how they interact with other inmates as well as the prison staff. So um
[13:04]whether it's more high-profile inmates or others, they may often have somewhat uh different um uh get somewhat different treatment. Now, I think that
[13:14]the prison is doing its best to keep her away from some of the others because they know that she is a lightning rod in many ways. So, I know for instance that when she was brought to the facility,
[13:26]she did her kind of medical check-in uh not in normal operating hours. And I think part of the reason at least why she may be seeing visitors in the prison
[13:37]chapel as opposed to elsewhere is because they just want to create a kind of buffer um uh for her with with other inmates. There was an incident in which
[13:46]another inmate whose uh child uh actually faced um uh sex trafficking was extremely alarmed by Glain Maxwell's presence there spoke out. She was
[13:57]transferred which her legal team saw as a form of punishment. So these are um uh these are uh um you know really sensitive charges that she was convicted
[14:09]of and I think that there's an understanding that um uh you know that could be grounds for difficult and uh even possibly violent interactions with
[14:20]other inmates that they're trying to avoid. And like you said, someone who's usually found guilty of sex trafficking crimes like this isn't in a facility
[14:29]with this few of uh you talked to the prison nurse who was fired for leaking these emails. Can you talk to us about those conversations and what exactly she said? What was her
[14:41]reasoning behind leaking the emails? >> Yes, she she really emphasized that she didn't do this for political reasons. She said that she was raised in a
[14:51]conservative Republican family and what really troubled her was again this appearance of a of kind of special treatment and this very unusual
[15:01]relationship with a warden that she felt needed to be brought to the public. And then when you're looking at these emails, did it seem like to you that
[15:12]Galain Maxwell knew, hey, these might one day get in the hands of a staff writer at the Atlantic and be posted for the world to see. Does it indicate to
[15:22]you that because it indicated to me when I read your piece that she doesn't think she's in there forever. I mean, she joked that she could be a lawyer maybe when she gets out. I mean, talk to us
[15:31]about what you think, go into her head. What do you think she thinks is next? Right. I think she is certainly holding
[15:41]out hope for that and she does have she does have those plans for the future. It was hard to tell if that was just um you know joke that she was making about all this legal work that she's doing and
[15:51]trying to um get an early release and how that you know sets her up for possibly some kind of late in life legal career. Um who knows? Never say never. Uh, I think that she, you know, it's
[16:03]interesting about whether she was aware that these emails could be released in some way. They're both, they're both in in the emails, she is both um, uh, you
[16:13]know, engaged in fairly private uh, back and forth uh, with her family members, you know, advising them. Uh, be low profile when you come in, dress as if you're my lawyer, don't make a big show
[16:25]of things. So, in a somewhat personal way, having a back and forth with them. But there's other moments in which she's pretty cryptic about the way that she refers to certain things and telling her lawyer kind of don't take that meeting
[16:37]or I don't want to take that meeting because it's too good to be true and she doesn't she doesn't refer exactly to what she's talking about. So I think she I think she is aware you know she's a smart person. And I think she's aware
[16:47]that that is a risk and her um her her family and her other interlocutors including this lawyer of hers do also uh keep her ab breast of the intense public
[16:59]interest um in her including the the paparazzi that's been stationed outside this facility and just telling her about about that and uh the this the swarm of
[17:09]cameras that that have been following her. And I think I mean I can't state it enough that the crimes that she was convicted of are heinous sex crimes
[17:19]against minors. And you know she said in an email you're reporting that she said to her brother that she was finally on the right side of Alice in Wonderland's looking glass. I mean it seems like she
[17:30]has this almost optimistic tenor. Maybe because she has nothing to look forward to. But you know does she realize that the optics if President Trump pardoned her or commuted her sentence or anything
[17:41]like that? I mean, aren't very good because her crimes are so heinous. Do you think she's tethered to reality in any way? >> Well, I can't really speak to what's
[17:52]going on um inside of her head. I do think that the the the power of the power to an ability to kind of
[18:00]rationalize these things um is uh is often times can be pronounced. And also of course an aspect of this story has been about impunity has been about
[18:11]impunity first for Jeffrey Epstein initially before the law caught up with him. Um and then also the way in which uh even though she was associated with him for many years and known as his
[18:22]longtime companion, even after he was arrested for the first time, she was able still to move in polite society, be invited to fancy events, sit on fancy
[18:32]boards, and so I think that that kind of impunity um uh doesn't uh uh you know, it it it may persist uh even after this
[18:43]kind of harsh punishment And Congressman Jamie Raskin wrote a letter to Trump. He revealed there that Gla Maxwell is working on that commutation application. He also added
[18:54]that the federal law enforcement staff working at the camp have been waiting on Miss Maxwell hand and foot just like your reporting. And then he posed this question. What information is Miss Maxwell agreeing to suppress in order to
[19:05]receive such outlandishly favorable treatment as a federal prisoner and convicted sex offender? You know, based on these emails, do you have that question, too?
[19:15]I do and and the uh members of Congress have written to the president about this, have also written to the warden and sought answers. As far as I understand, they have not received those
[19:26]answers. But I think that if there's an explanation for her special treatment, if it has to do with ensuring her safety, ensuring the safety of other prisoners, maintaining order at this
[19:36]facility, then uh then let's then let's uh let's air those um uh let's air those ration and air those answers and then let's let's discuss it and let's discuss
[19:46]the basis for it. But as of now, uh I think there are grounds for suspicion about what's going on here because of the very unusual circumstances starting with her presence at this facility that
[19:56]the uh federal guidelines bureau prison guidelines state is improper for the nature of her offenses. >> Well, Isaac, I really appreciate your reporting. Really eye-opening stuff. And
[20:08]as we perhaps get answers to these questions and see more from her, I hope you can come back on and join me. Thanks for the time. >> Thanks, Britney.