[0:02]And we're just leaving that report from Riannan Mills because we have uh breaking news this hour and it involves Peter Mandlesson and uh we understand that Peter
[0:12]Manderson has been led away from his London home by uh a man you see there and a woman behind him and others uh
[0:24]wearing body cameras. Uh it's not clear uh exactly who they are. It's not clear if uh Peter Mandlesson has been
[0:34]arrested, but these are the latest pictures. And this follows a month of uh well, certainly earlier this month, two
[0:44]properties linked to Peter Mandlesson uh in Wiltshire and in North London were searched following allegations of
[0:53]misconduct in public office. The same allegations faced of course by uh the former Prince Andrew
[1:02]and now these pictures are what uh are coming into Sky News and uh we cannot say whether he has been arrested but he
[1:12]is certainly being led away uh by uh a man and a woman there wearing uh body cameras and we wait to uh to see and
[1:24]we're told by eyewitnesses there that they were wearing lanyards with um police identification. So uh that is all we can tell you. No word at the moment
[1:34]on whether Peter Mandlesson has been arrested, but the force or the Metropolitan Police uh launched an investigation into uh
[1:45]Peter Mandlesson, an ex- Labour minister of course, former ambassador to the United States earlier this month after suggestions that he had passed on market
[1:57]sensitive information to the sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. At the time, uh, the Metropolitan Police said Peter Mandlesson has not been arrested and
[2:08]inquiries are ongoing and, uh, Lord Mandlesson has chosen not to, uh, talk about the investigation.
[2:17]He's previously expressed his uh regret for his association with Epstein and apologized as he put it unequivocally
[2:27]uh to the women and girls who suffered. Um but uh these are the pictures that are coming into us and uh we await to
[2:38]see any official confirmation of what uh all this amounts to. Uh John Craig is uh
[2:47]at uh Westminster. And so John um well, we know what we can see. Peter
[2:54]Manderson being led away by um people with body cameras and at least one wearing a lanyard saying police. So um
[3:04]it looks like they are police. >> Yes. And uh because uh we know that police arrived at the house earlier on this afternoon, they were seen arriving
[3:13]there and uh as we've just seen, you see the white car on the left there and there's a male assuming we can say an officer. The the officer opens the back
[3:24]door of the car. Uh Mandlesson gets in and in fact the door was already open and then the male officer gets in the back of the car with him. the female
[3:33]officer is gets in the front of the car. Now, we don't know if it's an arrest or perhaps whether he's been invited to go to a police station to answer some
[3:45]questions. Perhaps >> John, I'm just going to interrupt you because we can now confirm that the Metropolitan Police are saying that
[3:55]Peter Manderson has been arrested on suspicion of misconduct in uh public office. Uh there is a statement from the
[4:06]Metropolitan Police, an update on the investigation into misconduct in public office offenses relating to a uh government minister. And the statement
[4:16]says officers have arrested a 72-y old man on suspicion of misconduct in public office. He was arrested at an address in Camden
[4:27]on Monday the 23rd of February and has been taken to a London police station for interview. This follows search warrants at two addresses in Wiltshire
[4:37]and Camden areas. Uh John Craig uh was I I interrupted you, John. Apologies, but there we are. That's the the
[4:46]confirmation. And not naming Peter Mandlesson, but then they the police didn't name uh Andrew Mountbatton Windsor when they arrested him for um
[4:57]misconduct in public office. Sir, so um well now we wait to see what happens regarding Peter Mandlesson.
[5:07]>> Well, we can compare, I suppose, what's happened with Peter Mandlesson today with what happened with Andrew a few days ago. Now, this has happened in broad daylight in the middle of the
[5:19]afternoon. Um he uh you know, he's not been bundled into a car or anything like that. It all looks relatively uh uh civil. Um he's obviously been told it
[5:30]looks like what's going to happen to him. You're going to get in the car. We're going to take you to a police station. We don't know which police station yet. We were told uh where Andrew was interviewed by police in
[5:41]Norolk. But consider the difference. This is happening in the middle of the afternoon uh in full gaze of TV cameras, photographers, and so on with Andrew. It
[5:52]was a raid on his home in Norolk 8:00 in the morning. and we didn't learn about the arrest until later. Now, Andrew was
[6:01]held for questioning uh uh for 11 hours. Well, if it's 11 hours for Peter Mandelson, that's going to take him to the middle of the night. But uh so he
[6:12]has been uh he has been that is his home. It's they say it's in Camden. It's in the Regent Park area of of London in the burough of Camden. And of course, he
[6:22]has a home in Wiltshire. Um and as the police statement says that they they've carried out searches there. They had search warrants for the two addresses.
[6:32]That home you see there and also the home in Wiltshire. So um we knew also that that was the offense that the
[6:41]police were looking into misconduct in public office. And what this is about, this is nothing to do with the uh uh allegations of excuse me of sexual
[6:53]misconduct involving Jeffrey Epstein. What this is about is about the Epstein tapes which suggested that he had passed
[7:02]on commercial secrets, government secrets to Epstein at the time when he was a labor minister, when he was Secretary of State for business and
[7:12]trade. uh back when Gordon Brown was prime minister. Now we know that Gordon Brown is furious at the disclosures that have come in the Epstein files and he m
[7:24]Mr. Brown has been in regular contact not just with the Met but with several police forces uh helping obviously helping them passing on information that
[7:33]he has because of course this was a period when the British government under Gordon Brown as prime minister the late Alistister Darling was chancellor uh
[7:43]were grappling with the aftermath of a world financial crisis and we saw in the uh documents that we a few weeks ago that he was passing on or appeared to be
[7:54]passing on information about government activity uh to try and uh help the financial situation to a financier um uh
[8:05]uh Jeffrey Epstein. There you see the car. Uh there are I'm not sure if there are flashing lights on the car. There are photographers there. And uh I repeat the point. It's so different from the
[8:16]8:00 a.m. Not quite a dawn raid on Andrew up in Norolk. But it's all happening. It's all very visible in the middle of the afternoon uh in a residential area of of London, not far
[8:28]from the center of London. And uh there we >> interrupt you, but I mean there is a difference and the difference is that the searches have already taken place at Peter Mandlesson's house. They were
[8:39]searching Peter Manderson's houses at the beginning of this month. >> Yes. >> Searches had not taken place as far as we know at the properties of uh that Andrew Mountbat and Windsor had been
[8:50]living in. um be before they before they chose to arrest him. >> Yes. What's clearly happened here is um I'm not sure I forget how many days exactly they've been taking making
[9:01]searches at the two Mandlesen homes, but clearly they've found stuff which has led them to uh uh to whether it's correspondence, whether it's uh um stuff
[9:12]on uh computers. U not we don't we don't really know at this stage, but they've obviously found stuff that's led them to feel that an arrest is necessary. Now
[9:22]all this happened uh Mark at the very moment when Darren Jones the uh chief secretary to the prime minister was giving MPs an update in the House of
[9:32]Commons uh about uh the Mandlesson situation and the piece of news uh two pieces of news really. The first was that we're going to see um some of the
[9:43]uh uh tranches as uh Darren Jones called them of the documents that parliament voted should be made public in early
[9:53]March. He said well that's March the 1st is on Sunday. So in a week or so's time we may be seeing some of the documents that parliament voted should be made
[10:03]public uh uh on the 4th of February. The other piece of news actually that he gave was about Andrew uh where he said that the government had not was not
[10:14]ruling out taking further action. Uh for example uh stripping him of his place in line number eight in line to the throne and other action. So we knew that the
[10:25]government was considering that but we've got confirmation from Darren Jones at the dispatch box this afternoon. Uh but uh in terms of uh in terms of the
[10:35]Mandlesson inquiry, well it's been uh uh quite a dramatic day with these events up in north in Regent Park in the Camden air cam bur of Camden and also the news
[10:47]about the release of documents as well. But there you have a very crestfallen I suppose we could say uh Lord Mandlesson as he was Peter Mandolson uh getting
[10:57]into a car um obviously wondering what's going to happen to him over the next few hours. Well, we can assume what's going to happen to him. He's going to face an
[11:06]awful lot of questions because um um uh because as I say Andrew was kept for 11 hours by police when he was arrested.
[11:17]Now, it may well be that uh Mandlesson will be uh allowed back home at some point this in the this evening and then perhaps face further questions tomorrow.
[11:28]We just don't know. But here we are what just before just after 5:00 and uh he will be if he's not arrived already on his way to a police station uh one
[11:39]assumes in central London uh to be interviewed by uh I I believe it's the specialist crime unit in the Met that's looking into this because of course it is the same offense that's both Andrew
[11:50]and Mandlesson are being investigated over and the suggestion is of course that he breached government secrets. He gave away uh commercial information to
[12:01]Jeffrey Epstein at the time in in Mandal in Mandlesson's case when he was a senior minister under Gordon Brown and and of course the government at the time
[12:11]was grappling with the financial crisis all sorts of economic problems and there he was according to those bits of paper that we saw a week or two ago uh telling
[12:22]stuff to Epstein who was a financier at the time And of course uh we know so much more about him now. >> Yeah. I mean it's a good point you make
[12:33]there because it's worth remembering what this is all about. And this is about these messages what from way back 2008 financial crisis when Mandlesen Lord Mandlesson was pretty much right at
[12:45]the heart of Gordon Brown's government. >> Very much so. I mean uh I well remember uh that of course uh he Peter Mandlesson was a ma a minister twice under under
[12:55]Tony Blair. First Trade and Industry, then Northern Ireland. He had to resign in disgrace or he was sacked twice. First time over a mortgage loan from his
[13:05]fellow MP at the time, uh Jeffrey Robinson, second over a passport application from a top in Indian businessman. Uh and then he went off to become a Brussels commissioner. Uh he
[13:17]was commissioner for trade as well. So he was considered an expert in that field. And it was an enormous shock to many at Westminster when Gordon Brown who was uh let's not forget Peter
[13:29]Mandlesson's great foe um going back to the Labour leadership of Tussle of 1994 when John Smith died um um he was uh
[13:41]they the two of them had a dreadful falling out of course because Mandlesson backed Blair and not Brown who was then in trouble. I mean there were there was talk of coups plots bit like now against
[13:52]Gordon Brown. Uh there was David Milliband for example and others were accused of plotting against Brown and he brought Mandlesson back trade and industry at one point he was first
[14:02]became first secretary of state effectively deputy prime minister. So he was right in one of the most senior positions in the government and now we learn that he was sharing secrets uh so
[14:13]it appears with Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, absolutely, John. Um, just bear with us for the moment uh because I want to go and speak to the legal affairs commentator Joshua Rosenberg. And
[14:25]Joshua, it what it was three or four days ago we were talking about something very similar. Um, just talk to us about the process that will now be taking place.
[14:36]>> Well, what the Metropolitan Police said today, as you've been reporting, is officers have arrested a 72year-old man on suspicion of misconduct in public office. He was arrested at an address in
[14:47]Camden on Monday the 23rd of February. Has been taken to a London police station for interview. This follows search warrants at two addresses in the Wiltshire and Camden areas. So I think
[14:59]it follows that the police have obtained a search warrant for Peter Mandlesson's home in the London Bar of Camden uh and also for his property in Wiltshire. uh
[15:10]if they've got a a search warrant then maybe they don't need to arrest him in order to search his properties uh which is what seemed to be the position when
[15:19]the Temp's Valley police arrested Andrew Mountbatton Windsor last Thursday they needed to arrest him in order to search his home but it amounts to the same
[15:29]thing you're arrested you're taken off to the police station your property is searched uh Peter Manderson has obviously seen this coming so have the media who were clearly outside his home
[15:40]uh waiting in case this happened. Uh and uh as we were saying last week, the offense that uh uh he has been arrested for is this common law offense, this
[15:50]judge made offense of misconduct in public office. The elements of that uh were summarized by the court of appeal just over 20 years ago. uh it's
[15:59]committed by a public officer acting as such who willfully neglects to perform his duty or willfully misconducts himself to such a degree as to amount to
[16:10]an abuse of the public's trust in the office holder without reasonable justification or excuse. >> Yeah. And again, the allegation is this
[16:20]leaking of documents. Um, and in Andrews and Mandlesson's case, the allegation is leaking documents to the
[16:30]to the same man, Jeffrey Epstein. >> Yes. It's curious, isn't it? It's the uh same allegations uh relating to the same recipient who of course took his own
[16:40]life uh in prison uh and who uh has nevertheless had this influence on two quite different people u from the grave
[16:51]as it were uh of course uh these are simply arrests there are no charges there have been no charges for Andrew Mountbatten Windsor doesn't follow there will be charges for Peter Mandelson
[17:03]today either. But it is a significant move in the case of both of these men. Uh and it does mean the start of the investigation process. Although I
[17:13]suspect that in both cases it will take some months, perhaps even longer before the police in conjunction with the Crown Prosecution Service decide whether charges are to be issued.
[17:24]>> Yeah. I just want to um warn viewers that there is a lot of flash photography on the pictures you're seeing on the left of your screen there which are on a loop and those pictures show Lord Peter
[17:34]Manderson being arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office. Uh the Metropolitan Police said a 72-y old man was taken into a London police station
[17:43]for interview uh today. Back to Joshua. And Joshu, you were just making the point that you think in both these cases, Andrew Mountbatton Windsor and Lord Mandlesson, these could be long
[17:54]investigations. >> That's right. Because the police are obviously going to look through documents, computer files, anything they
[18:02]can find at the homes of Andrew Mbatton, Windsor, and Peter Mandlesson. But it's unlikely that these by themselves will
[18:12]be sufficient to build a case. uh they will want to look in both cases I suppose at government papers at government documents uh in the case of
[18:21]Peter Mandlesson uh perhaps uh not going back quite as far as Andrew Mbaten Windsor goes back 25 years to the start of his job as a as a trade envoy but
[18:31]nevertheless uh it does look as if they will want to look through these documents and I suspect that it's only when they've looked through these documents compared that with the trove
[18:42]of documents disclosed by the US authorities put together both sides of each email if you like and tried to work out a pattern tried to work out what's going on. It's only then that they can assess the evidence and decide if they
[18:53]have a case. Yeah. And the other emails that uh are involved here we think are indicate that Lord Manderson gave advanced notice to
[19:05]Epstein about a bailout from the EU to save the euro. So, there's a lot of stuff here from the similar from a similar period that uh the police will
[19:16]be wanting to question Lord Mandlesson about. >> That's right. And uh his lawyers will advise him that it's up to him to show that he has a reasonable excuse or
[19:27]justification for what he's alleged to have done. Uh and in both cases, trade envoy, um ambassador, other position in
[19:36]government, uh a person is granted a certain amount of discretion, um uh in how he handles information he receives. Clearly, if he's been given it in
[19:48]confidence and he hands it over to somebody else for personal gain, well, that's something that would amount to an abuse of the public's trust in the office holder to quote from uh the the
[19:59]elements of the offense. Um, on the other hand, he might say that he was not misconducting himself. He was performing his duty as he best could uh and therefore he has a defense. So uh
[20:10]because we've got this this judge made offense um which you know government has successive governments have failed to put onto a statutory footing for years.
[20:21]It's 5 years ago that the law commission recommended there should be a clearer offense created by parliament to replace this judge made offense that goes back centuries because of the fact that we
[20:33]have only this common law offense. It does make life more complicated. I did say to suggest that to the director of public prosecutions who gave a briefing
[20:42]to journalists just over a week ago, nearly two weeks ago now, and he said that the elements of the offense were perfectly clear and he could advise the police on what they needed to establish
[20:54]if and when they decided they wanted to seek his advice on whether charges could be brought. >> Joshua, appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much indeed. Um, we're going to
[21:05]speak to Sam Coat, our deputy political editor. Now, I just want to read out the Metropolitan Police uh statement uh which says that officers uh have
[21:14]arrested a 72-year-old man on suspicion of misconduct in public office. He was arrested at an address in Camden on Monday the 23rd of February and has been taken to a London police station for
[21:25]interview. This follows search warrants at two addresses in the Wiltshire and uh Camden areas. Uh Sam, well these
[21:35]pictures and this moment uh all very difficult for Lord Mandlesson. >> Make no mistake about it, Mark. This is a seismic moment not only for Peter Mandlesson but for British politics as a
[21:47]whole. Six months ago, the man that you can see in the pictures was the British ambassador to Washington. One of the maybe halfozen most powerful figures in
[21:58]this country. personally appointed by Kier Starmmer against elements even of his own better judgment persuaded of it we believe by his then chief of staff uh
[22:08]Morgan Mcweeny because he was thought to be the only man who could bridge the divide with Donald Trump's white house after the US president returned to the white house for the second time Peter
[22:19]Mandlesson believed to be the only person who could help Britain uh and sort out its trading uh and relationship with the US at this tricky time today
[22:30]being taken away as you can see by police. Peter Madison has denied any wrongdoing but I suspect there will be a lot of focus on those emails that we heard so much about. Emails from the
[22:40]last time Gordon Brown was in the British government when uh when Peter Manderson was in the British government when Gordon Brown was prime minister. Peter Mandlesson, then business secretary, alleged to have forwarded
[22:51]emails, that's what the uh Epstein emails suggested, forwarded emails uh to Jeffrey Epstein, uh potentially containing confidential government material. uh the allegation that he
[23:03]tipped off uh Jeffrey Epstein about an impending EU bailout uh and that he notified uh the uh financia about the activities of the British government and
[23:13]gave advice uh to big US bankers to mildly threaten the then UK chancellor uh the late Alistister Darling. All of those things likely uh to come under
[23:24]scrutiny. Uh Peter Mandlesson uh a not a figure shy of controversy. Uh forced to resign from the British government twice when Tony Blair was prime minister uh
[23:36]once over a home loan scandal once uh over his relationship with the Hindu brothers. But this challenge facing Lord Mandlesson is now of a different order
[23:46]uh with the police now uh Metropolitan Police now arresting him. Uh it will go I think the political ramifications of this will go to the very heart of
[23:56]Downing Street because once again the focus will be on Kier Starmmer's decision uh to appoint somebody with a track record as checkered as Peter Mandlesson's politically with those two
[24:08]resignations in knowledge that there was a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein uh that went after his conviction uh for relations
[24:17]uh with uh miners back in 2009. 9 a relationship that possibly involved taking hospitality from Jeffrey Epstein uh in the early 2010s. All of that was
[24:28]known to Kier Starmer at the moment that he appointed him, the British ambassador uh to Washington. The question that Labour MPs will and are asking is why
[24:38]why take such a risk? Is it really the case that Peter Madison was the only person who could solve the conundrum of the UK relationship with Washington? particularly given that there was a
[24:50]talented incumbent in Karen Pierce already occupying that office. But she ended up being hurried out of the British residency in Washington to make way for Peter Mandlesson because he was
[25:01]seen uh by Kier Starmer and his then chief of staff Morgan Mweeny as the only answer uh to the political question that Donald Trump's second presidency posed.
[25:11]And yet that has turned out uh to look like a political misjudgment by the prime minister uh who will now like the rest of us be watching these pictures. Yeah. I mean you mentioned Karen Pierce.
[25:23]I mean all this may not have come up to the extent it has if she had been kept in place. A wellrespected diplomat in Washington. Donald Trump reportedly liked her. But anyway, look that's uh
[25:34]that's going back in time. Sam, um the chief secretary to the Treasury, Darren Jones, had just a few minutes before all this confirmed that the government expected to publish the first trunch of
[25:45]these documents uh relating to Peter Manderson's appointment as uh US ambassador in early March. Now, is there a question mark, do you think, now over
[25:54]that release, given what we're now seeing on our screen here, the arrest of of Lord Mandolson? Well, we wait to find out from the Cabinet Office. What what the Cabinet Office has been doing in
[26:05]recent days is pouring over those documents together uh with the help of the Metropolitan Police to work out what can justifiably and safely be released and what can't. And I think we already
[26:16]knew that there were quite a lot of messages, quite a lot of emails that almost certainly weren't going to be put in the public domain already, those directly relating uh to number 10,
[26:26]thought to have a carve out from the uh publication. some of those messages actually expected as early uh as next week. Whether or not the news of the arrest changes the timetable, well, we haven't we haven't heard that, but
[26:38]already uh those emails that might relate to any kind of case uh were were off the table as it were from the publication. So, we could still get get
[26:47]some that the issue of these uh emails though, Mark, just compounds the political headache. It's unclear quite how wide the scope of this release could
[26:57]be, but if it does include diplomatic cables uh from Washington to London with the most sensitive uh of political advice going in both directions, if it
[27:08]does include personal emails between senior figures in number 10 and Lord Mandlesson, whether or not they relate to some of the issues uh at the heart of the arrest, no government can really uh
[27:19]withstand uh the kind of private conversations being shone uh uh and revealed in the sort of in the public glare in the public in the public light like that. So I think that there are
[27:30]very many dark days ahead for this government and Kalma will be cursing the day that he ever agreed to the suggestion of his chief of staff and appointed Lord Mandelson as our man in
[27:41]Washington. >> Um Sam, thank you very much indeed. And of course, we should uh just uh
[27:50]emphasize that uh the man you see there uh Lord Mandlesson has repeatedly denied all wrongdoing. He previously apologized for maintaining his relationship with
[28:01]Epstein uh which he admitted went on for too long. Well, in an interview with Ali Forscu
[28:11]for uh tonight's politics hub, we got shadow chancellor Saml Stride's reaction to this breaking news. Let's just have a listen to what he had to say. Well, I
[28:22]think it also speaks to a lack of judgment on the part of the prime minister. And part of the process now of getting to the bottom of exactly what happened will also be uh what happened
[28:33]around his appointment, what information was known at what time and by uh whom and were the right decisions justifiable decisions taken in that context. So there's a lot that we need to know
[28:43]about. But it does seem to me that you've got a rather chaotic number 10 uh a prime minister whose judgment has been severely lacking not just in that but in issues around others like uh Matthew
[28:54]Doyle for example. Um and now we've got this situation with uh the journalist Gabriel Program who was uh uh investigated at the behest of uh labor together and there are lots of issues
[29:06]around that. We got Lori Magnus the ethics adviser looking into that as well. There just seems to be this swirl of poor judgment and uh you know inappropriate things going on in and
[29:16]around number 10 Mel there. And just to repeat that warning of the flash photography that you are seeing and will continue to see
[29:26]on your screen as we show these pictures of uh Lord Manderson being arrested in the last few minutes uh by police in
[29:36]London. He's been picked up from his north London home and has been taken to a London police station for uh questioning. I'm joined now by Baroness Smith, the Minister for Women and
[29:47]Equalities, and of course, former Home Secretary who served in the same cabinet as Lord Mandlesson. Good evening. Uh, thank you for being with us, and well, I just wonder what you make of this news
[29:58]that, uh, Lord Manderson is this evening under arrest. >> Well, Marc, as you said, I I was the home secretary, so I think I know better than to comment on what is clearly an
[30:09]ongoing police investigation. the police will do what they need to do in relation to this arrest and this investigation. But I suppose it just behooves us once
[30:20]again to remember first of all that anybody who knows anything about uh Jeffrey Epstein should of course be
[30:29]providing uh that information and once again we need to keep at the heart of our thoughts the victims of his activity and that's what I'll be doing this evening.
[30:40]>> Yeah. And but as um Mel Stride was just saying, these are images which will um not go down well in Downing Street at all. More problems for Kier Stalmer
[30:51]because it does reflect on K Starmmer's decision to appoint him as ambassador to Washington in the first place. >> Well, of course, as soon as Karma understood what the reality of Peter
[31:02]Mandlesson's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein was, he sacked him uh in the middle of the night, actually. So uh you know I think that's an important uh area of judgment but you know yeah of course
[31:14]to be frank I mean I'm here today to talk about a really important set of reforms that the government is undertaking for children in our schools with special educational needs. That's
[31:24]what I'd rather be talking about. >> Well isn't this the the issue here that here we are Peter Manderson is on the left of your screen and we're not going to move away from this story. I mean,
[31:35]isn't it the, you know, isn't that the problem about the way that Peter Mandelson behaved where we don't know whether he's, you know, guilty of
[31:45]misconduct in public office or not, but it is dominating uh the news and um you're not getting in what you want to talk about, which is which is um schools. Well, uh, it is at this moment,
[31:57]and I think I've been pretty clear about our responsibility, uh, as public servants to allow the police to get on with their, uh, investigation. But for years to come, what will make a real
[32:08]difference to our children, is whether or not we've got an education system that allows them to achieve their full potential, including those children with special educational needs. And that's
[32:19]the reason why today we've made important announcements about how we invest more money in providing the support that those children need without their parents having to fight lengthy
[32:30]legal battles uh to get that support for their children. >> Okay. Um the other thing we've learned in the last few minutes is that uh the chief secretary Darren Jones has said
[32:41]that the government expects to publish this first branch of documents relating to Peter Mandlesson's appointment as US ambassador in early March. How
[32:50]embarrassing could that be for uh the government? I mean these will quite possibly be a huge tranch including personal you know correspondence and
[33:02]messages between prime minister and Manderson and other people at the heart of Downing Street and Peter Manderson. Well, of course, the reason why they're being published is because the prime minister has been absolutely clear uh
[33:12]that he wants full transparency uh about the process of appointing uh Peter Mandlesson as well as reviewing the way in which those appointments and
[33:23]particularly uh that the vetting happens. You know, you can't have it to both ways, Mark. You know, if that wasn't happening, you'd be saying to me, why is there not more transparency? The
[33:32]prime minister took swift action uh against Peter Mandlesson when the the extent of his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein became clear and he's now making
[33:43]sure that the information and messages around that are being released as effectively as possible whilst of course
[33:52]not uh prejud prejudicing any investigations that are underway at the moment. >> Right. I mean, but you can't have it both ways either because Peter because Kia Starama made the decision in the first place.
[34:03]>> And that's part of what the messages will identify. It's part of the reason why Karma having apologized for making that decision is now making sure that all of the information around it is available for people to see.
[34:15]>> Okay. And just finally, um Mel Stride described this as a dark day for Downing Street. I mean, he's right, isn't it? It is another dark day for Downing Street.
[34:25]>> Well, yeah. In some ways, as as you've identified, it's not what we want to talk about. More importantly, I don't think it's what those parents currently struggling to get the sort of support
[34:36]for their children with special educational needs that they want are also primarily interested in. You know what they want to hear from me is reassurance that we will put in place
[34:47]for their children the additional support as an earlier stage to enable them to make the most of their lives in schools and to reach their full potential. And that's what we've been
[34:58]talking about today. both the4 billion pounds worth of additional investment, the way in which that will enable more children to get the support they need in the schools which will enable them to
[35:09]learn alongside their uh friends and to achieve everything that they can out of our school system. That's what I've been focused on today. >> Right. Well, Baroness, I'm I'm glad you
[35:20]were able to uh talk about that at least at the end there because we do, as you know, and you'll be aware have this uh story to cover. But Baroness, thank you
[35:29]very much indeed for coming on. Just to repeat the statement which the Metropolitan Police have issued in the
[35:40]uh last few minutes and it is that officers have arrested a 72 year old man on suspicion of misconduct in public office. He was arrested at an address in
[35:49]Camden uh today and has been taken to a London police station for interview. This follows search warrants at two addresses in the Wiltshire and Camden
[36:00]areas. And uh the pictures you can see there are uh Lord Manderson being taken away by police officers outside his home
[36:11]in uh Camden. Right. Let's bring in police commentator Graeme Wetone. And Graeme, it's almost a
[36:21]deja vu, isn't it? I mean it's the it's the the same allegations um >> are quite a different um arrest. I mean but but is the difference because they have already
[36:33]searched Peter Manderson's homes whereas with Andrew no such searches have taken place. >> Yeah. Good evening Mark. I I would think so people are getting this confused because it's the same offense as in the
[36:45]same name type of offense misconduct in public office. People seem to expect the same um process or protocols to be applied by by two different forces and that's not always the case. They've clearly gone out and executed search
[36:56]warrants at Peter Madison's addresses in Camden and Wiltshire, but also then decided to arrest him. The arrest gives him the opportunity to do an interview at the police station uh while he's
[37:06]under arrest. So, while he's detained, so he hasn't got the option of of leaving the police station. The other alternative is to have people come in. We've seen this before in other instance or other cases where they almost do like what's called a voluntary interview.
[37:17]They attend at a pre-arranged time with their solicitor, but you're told that if you do that process that you are free to leave at any time, whereas clearly if you're under arrest, you are detained. You're not free to leave and you have to then come into the interview and stay in
[37:29]the interview until the officers have concluded the interview. So, this follows what I would think be a normal process for this type of investigation. They've clearly been looking and reviewing numerous documents and
[37:39]paperwork over a long period of time. They've now reached the next stage of the investigation where they need to carry out further searches of premises uh owned and occupied by Peter Madison
[37:50]and also to arrest him and bring him in for interview to speak to him about um items they've already discovered just to get some clarity in his account of what they'd found so far. And Graeme, we made
[38:01]a lot on Thursday uh on the program then about how Andrew was being treated effectively as a a run-of-the-mill suspect, not a member of the royal
[38:11]family. Do we expect the same here that Peter Manderson will be treated in that way, not a not as a you know, senior politician or former senior politician?
[38:23]>> No, they're treated exactly the same way as other detainees. So, they're coming to the police station and people already pick up on the fact he's walking to the car himself, but he's got two, I assume, two detectives from the Met. They're
[38:33]walking alongside him. They've already assessed that he's not a threat um to them. So, he's not handcuffed. That'll be one thing I no doubt people pick up on. He's not being handcuffed. He's not a threat to them. He's not a risk to
[38:43]them. They put him in the in the car. They're going to transport him to a London police station. That may well have happened as well with Andrew. We didn't see images of Andrew's arrest or or um being taken to the police station,
[38:54]but that's happened with Peter Mandlesson taken out of his home address by two officers, placed into the vehicle. When he arrives at the police station, exactly the same booking in procedure. The the facts of the arrest will be related to the custody officer.
[39:06]They'll authorize detention, tell him why he's been detained, the offense he's been investigated for, and then he will be read his rights the same as as Andrew would have been. right to a solicitor, right to have someone informed and he can exercise those rights at any time
[39:18]while he's detained. If he's got a solicitor, he will then name his solicitor and either he's contacted them already or the custody officer or another detective will phone them and ask them to attend the police station.
[39:29]Um, and he's also allowed to have somebody informed of his arrest if they haven't already been informed. So, those same rights will be explained to him. He'll then go through a risk assessment process. He will then be searched. his
[39:40]personal property will be taken off him, bagged up um and sealed in his presence and then likely to maybe have fingerprint, photograph, DNA taken. That's normally done normally done now
[39:50]as a process when you're booking in as opposed to in my day as a custo. But police practices have changed slightly. So they tend to take those now. So they've got them already on file
[40:01]if they need them. He will then, if his solicitor is not already at the police station, likely to be placed in a cell waiting for his legal representative to arrive. So, exactly the same process as any other detainee.
[40:12]>> Well, it's interesting because um Andrew was questioned for I'm trying to think now. It was well, he was arrested at 7 or 8 in the morning and then he he didn't leave till what 7 or 8 in the
[40:22]evening. So, most of the day now you've got Mandlesson being Lord Mandlesson being arrested in the early evening. I mean, is there a chance that he would have to spend the night in a cell?
[40:34]>> You're you're right to highlight that. Yeah, there is. if they if they if they can't get him interviewed or aren't ready to interview him until what they would turn to be a reasonable hour as in has he been up all day um we don't tend
[40:45]to interview people in the early hours of the morning we'll get to a period of time say at 10 or 11 p.m. in the evening and if we haven't interviewed them at that stage, they'll be put into a period of arrest. So they'll be given arrest periods, so they could actually spend
[40:56]the whole whole night detained at the police station and then interviewed tomorrow morning. So with the timing of this arrest, which is different to Andrews, which was early in the morning, the police had all day then to interview
[41:07]him and he would, as you're right to mention it, he then got released about 7 or 8:00 in the evening. Peter Mattson's arrest is very different. He's been arrested about 5:00 in the evening, taken to a London police station. If
[41:19]there isn't already a queue of people waiting to be booked in because that can take an hour or two. He's unlikely to be booked in maybe for an hour or two. That puts us closer to 8 or 9:00. They're not going to interview him much past I would
[41:30]imagine midnight unless it's just literally interview him and then release him under investigation. >> Is it likely this could be a shorter investigation because the searches of
[41:40]the properties have taken place uh already? Um I think they began searching other properties in early February,
[41:48]February the 5th or 6th I think. Um so but but with Andrew, you know, the searches are have been ongoing um in the last few days certainly. Could so could
[42:00]it be a a shorter investigation? >> Well, it's possible that they've arrested him to bring him in just to just to carry out a an initial interview uh under caution at the police station with his legal representatives. It may
[42:10]well be that they're already almost like ready to to do the interview. So, just got to bring him in. He will still be booked in, still be searched, but it may well be the detectives and possibly even
[42:20]his legal representative are already um for an interview. So, it could almost go straight into the police station and straight into an interview. And depending what stage the investigation
[42:30]is at, he could then be released under investigation. It depends and we don't know enough details about the investigation. It depends at what stage they're at, what information they've got, the questions they've already got to put in they want to get either
[42:41]answers to or or hi is is entitled to make no comment replies to him or even have a prepared statement. But he will be allowed to have a consultation with his legal representative and they will then decide whether they're going to
[42:52]answer questions, issue a prepared statement or just make no comment and it's up to the investigators then to decide what happens next. >> Yeah. And just finally, Graeme, I mean, this is an extraordinary situation.
[43:02]You've got Tempame's Valley Police um who are investigating a former Prince Andrew for misconduct in public office.
[43:12]And now you have the Metropolitan Police investigating a senior politician or former senior politician or certainly a man who when these allegations
[43:22]um um what the what what they relate to sort of 2008 2009 was right at the heart of the Downing Street operation.
[43:33]>> Yeah, they're same offenses but I think very different circumstances or facts. So, so one's literally um a government minister, other senior member of the royal family as a trade envoy, but
[43:45]clearly there's going to be some crossover at some point with somebody some of the information that's been shared or passed on, but at the moment being dealt with very separately. My understanding is there is a almost like
[43:55]a central investigation, central overview by the National Police Chiefs Council with all the forces involved in it. So forces that are looking at at flights in and out the UK, trade invoice
[44:06]role, ambassadors role, um, details from government. So there will be some sort of central unit that will be overseeing all these albeit we have at the moment we got two separate police forces running almost like a similar type of
[44:17]fence they investigating with two different individuals. >> Yeah. Um, Graeme, thank you very much for coming on once again. Uh it doesn't
[44:27]seem that long ago since we were since we were were talking, but thank you very much indeed. Just to repeat uh what we know this evening, and it is that Lord
[44:38]Mandlesson, Peter Manderson, has been arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office. The Metropolitan Police have said that a 72year-old
[44:49]man was taken to a London police station for interview today. The former Labour minister has been accused of passing uh sensitive information really onto the
[45:00]pedophile financia Jeffrey Epstein during uh Mandlesson's time as business secretary. And this follows uh two of
[45:11]his properties uh previously being searched by police in connection with the allegations uh which uh surfaced
[45:19]like the allegations against uh Andrew Mountbatten Windsor um which surfaced following the Department of Justice's
[45:29]document dump uh relating to Epstein which uh happened last month. Let's go back to our chief political
[45:39]correspondent, uh, John Craig. And John, I mean, it's impossible to look at these pictures and not think of the political
[45:50]problems. I mean, obviously there's a the legal problems now for Peter Mandlesson, but the political problems that all this has caused for Kia Starama,
[46:00]>> and that's a point being made by senior conservatives. Uh we spoke here on Sky News short time ago to Sel Stride, the shadow chancellor, and he said it speaks
[46:11]to a lack of judgment on the part of the prime minister and uh obviously in appointing him as ambassador. The arrest came at the very moment Darren Jones,
[46:23]the chief secretary to the prime minister to the cabinet um was addressing MPs in the commons on the
[46:33]latest developments on the publication of all those documents uh that parliament voted to be released on the 4th of February. Now, uh, what Darren Jones announced was that that's the
[46:45]first tranch as he put it is going to come in early March. Well, that could be as early as next week. But clearly the Tories are going to say this uh this uh
[46:56]this points to the prime minister's bad judgment in appointing him to the job of ambassador. Now during those those exchanges in the commons only an hour or
[47:05]so ago some Labour MPs uh were questioning the vetting the procedure the so-called due diligent diligence uh when Lord Lord Mandlesson as he then was
[47:16]was appointed ambassador one MP Andy McDonald yes from the left of the Labour party said why on earth did anybody think it was a good idea to touch Peter
[47:26]Mandlesson with a barge pole he said uh when he was asking a question to the minister So, um there's going to be a lot of I told you so from critics of the
[47:36]prime minister. Um obviously the prime minister will have probably almost certainly have been expecting this development to happen at any point. Um
[47:47]and uh it was very interesting listening to Graeme Wetone there about what may happen uh to Lord Mandlesson or Peter Mandlesson. He may have to spend a night in the cells. Um because as we were
[47:58]discussing earlier, Mark, the timing of this in terms of the day time of day is completely different from the arrest of Andrew Mountbatten Windsor who was
[48:07]arrested at 8:00 a.m. Uh and also the fact that the police have chosen to do this in the middle of the afternoon in the full knowledge that there would be
[48:17]cameras outside Peter Mandlesson's home. There they are walking to the car, the doors open. Peter Mandlesson gets in and then we see the officer, the male
[48:29]officer gets into the car with him. As as Graeme was saying, no handcuffs on this occasion. Um the uh female officer gets in the front there. You see the police officer who's got a camera on
[48:40]him, a body camera uh obviously recording it. And there's the car being driven away. That that is Peter Mandlesson's home. It's near Regent's Park uh in fairly close to central
[48:51]London. And as the police statement says that that arrest follows search warrants, searches at uh Peter Mandlesson's two homes, one in Wiltshire
[49:01]and that one in the burough of Camden in London. Uh so um a very public arrest uh that by the uh uh by the uh uh uh police
[49:12]um no doubt Peter Mandelson's solister may uh uh complain about that that it's all been so public uh cause him more
[49:21]distress, more humiliation. Uh but what we don't know yet is whether a lawyer is there at the police station with him. Um, but knowing that Andrew was
[49:31]interviewed for 11 hours, well, Peter Mandlesson is what obviously in for a very lengthy interrogation, which is either going to have to be paused later
[49:40]on this evening, or as Graeme Wet was suggesting, he may have to spend a night in the cells. There's no he's not taken any uh there's no baggage, no overnight
[49:51]bag or anything like that. Um so um well let's wait and see how long he is going to be held in a central London police station. But a dramatic development as
[50:02]Sam Coats was saying earlier. This is a man who was ambassador was rubbing shoulders with President Trump less than 6 months ago. He was in the Oval Office
[50:12]and of course it was it's the top diplomatic position in the foreign office. Uh it comes with a luxurious mansion, a Lutchen's mansion. um and um
[50:23]it is the top post and uh of course it was a controversial appointment. There were those who said that it was very very unwise of Sir Star to appoint Peter
[50:35]Mandelon to this post. Gibney had to quit as a cabinet minister twice. Uh and and one pe one cabinet minister Peter Kyle said here on Sky News uh last year
[50:46]it was decided he was worth the risk. Well, um we are now seeing uh the consequences of that appointment. His relationship with Jeffrey Epstein is
[50:56]what's led to this police investigation and today this afternoon uh his arrest by the Metropolitan Police. >> Yeah. Okay. Uh John, thank you very much
[51:08]indeed. Let's go to Washington now and our US correspondent James Matthews. And why Washington? Well, of course, uh this
[51:17]is another direct result uh James of that release that ca of that cache of documents by the Department of Justice
[51:27]um ordered by Donald Trump. >> Yeah, it's all about the documents, isn't it? Right now, uh Mark, I mean Mandlesson very much tied to Jeffrey
[51:38]Epstein in the files that we have seen. Uh, you know, there are a number of connections in terms of the finances, $75,000
[51:49]paid by Epstein into bank accounts, uh, associated with Peter Mandlesson. Mandlesson said he didn't know anything about that or didn't recognize the
[51:59]payments. Documents important as they relate to the files connected to Mandel's appointment as the ambassador
[52:08]to Washington. They are going to be released as a result of MP's demands and they will be fascinating and there are concerns being aired that they may uh
[52:20]yes shed light on the mechanics of his appointment the reasons behind his appointment as UK ambassador but also uh the thoughts of Peter Mandlesen as they
[52:31]relate to the Americans the American president. Mandolson, a man famously indiscreet, remember? But you know, John alluded to to it there, Mark. You know,
[52:42]the the contrast between that picture on your screen of Mandles being led away, face like thunder today, the contrast between the Mandlesson we saw here in
[52:53]Washington, I saw nine months ago inside the Oval Office standing proudly by the Resolute desk as Donald Trump announced
[53:01]a UK US trade deal. He was sent to Washington as the UK's pointman on a whole range of issues clearly, but
[53:11]particularly the most pressing issue of the day and that was a trade deal that would accommodate the business of Donald Trump's tariff. So, you know, amongst
[53:21]the many questions being faced by Lord Mandlesson, I suppose questions would be about that trade deal itself. He stood that day in the Oval Office with Donald
[53:31]Trump at the desk beside Howard Lutnik, a commerce secretary. Both men very much with ties to Jeffrey Epstein in the past. So I think that perhaps is a side
[53:43]issue for Mandlesson right now and certainly for the policemen who will be speaking to him in the coming hours. But it's part of the bigger picture that
[53:52]will need addressed and you know the whole Washington experience. Mark, he was surrounded by an embassy, forced to uh work with Lord Mandlesson and I
[54:03]suppose to rehabilitate him following the controversy, a controversy that he carried lightly through the United States capital didn't, you know, batted
[54:14]it away when he arrived at the airport. The FT asked him about his associations with Epstein. He told them to f off. There was there came a day last May when clearly he felt comfortable in his new
[54:25]surroundings. Invited us to ask him a couple of questions having spoken to the Atlantic Council. He wanted to talk about trade. We did that. I asked him a couple of questions about trade. Then
[54:37]asked him about Jeffrey Epstein. His answer was I regret very much you know my association. Uh and I got a text from the embassy later that day and and it
[54:47]read cheap shot for clicks. they said on historic non news agenda issues. So that was the that was the kind of PR climate
[54:57]that Peter Mandelson created around him. Walking tall in Washington uh only six, seven months ago, but ultimately he left
[55:08]sacked in September. And I remember the dying days when he was whisked away in a car and actually lying down in the back
[55:17]seat to what to avoid the waiting media as the scandal grew around him on this side of the Atlantic. And as we're seeing today, that scandal has reached
[55:29]peak right now. >> Yeah. And um one wonders what the reaction will be in uh in Washington to all this. But uh we're just coming up to
[55:40]the top of the hour, James. And uh uh the big news is uh what you are seeing on your screen right now. Now, these are pictures showing uh in the last uh hour
[55:52]or so uh the arrest of uh Peter Mandlesson, arrested by a couple of uh Metropolitan Police officers at his home
[56:01]in North London. So, good evening to you. You're watching uh the NewsHour at 6:00 and we have the breaking news tonight that Lord Mandlesson has been arrested on
[56:12]suspicion of misconduct in public office. These are the pictures uh that we have been showing you of Lord Mandlesson's arrest. He was led from his
[56:23]home in North London uh near Regent Park by police officers who had obtained search warrants for two addresses, one
[56:33]in Camden, one in Wiltshire. And uh the statement from the Metropolitan Police says this. Officers have arrested a
[56:43]72year-old man on suspicion of misconduct in public office. He was arrested at an address in Camden on Monday the 23rd of February and has been
[56:53]taken to a London police station for interview. Statement goes on. This follows search warrants at two addresses in uh
[57:02]Wiltshire and in Camden. Worth saying that Lord Mandlesson has
[57:11]repeatedly denied all wrongdoing and he has previously apologized for u maintaining his relationship with
[57:20]Epstein which he admitted uh went on uh too long. Um this is uh a live shot of uh Lord Mandlesson's
[57:31]house in London and it was from there as we just saw that uh those two police officers or three police officers in fact took Lord Mandlesson away to a
[57:42]London police station uh for interview. Let's bring in our deputy political editor Sam Coat. And whichever way you
[57:52]view this Sam, uh these are difficult days for Lord Mandlesson and for Kestama. >> That's absolutely right Mark. This is a
[58:03]seismic moment in British politics. One of the most famous faces in Labor politics over four decades being taken away by the Metropolitan Police and
[58:15]arrested. the allegation, passing sensitive information to the pedophile Jeffrey Epstein during his time as Gordon Brown's business secretary in the
[58:24]late 2000s, leaking details allegedly about EU bailouts and about the activities of the UK government. Uh
[58:33]Peter Mandlesen just six months ago was one of the halfozen most important figures in K Star's government. Just six, seven months ago at the start of
[58:43]September, he was our man in Washington, the link man between the British government and Donald Trump's White House. We were told he was worth the risk of the appointment because he was
[58:54]the only figure who could bridge the gap between London and Washington. Kama pushing out his uh Peter Mandlesson's predecessor Karen Pierce to make way for
[59:05]one of the biggest beasts of Labor politics. But now look where we are today. a thunderous-faced Peter Mandlesson dressed uh in a Gile walking
[59:16]towards the police car to be driven off uh for his police interview. Images that will haunt him and Downing Street for weeks and months to come, casting uh
[59:26]aspersions not only uh allegedly on Peter Mandelon's judgment, but much more gravely for this government on Kier Starmer's decision to appoint Peter Mandlesson in the first place. The prime
[59:38]minister knew of the problems involving Peter Mandlesson. He knew that he had had to resign as a cabinet minister twice during the uh Blair government and
[59:49]he knew of Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with Peter Mandlesson that continued after the point that Jeffrey Epstein had a spell a spell in jail in
[1:00:01]Florida uh after he was convicted uh for sex crimes. And yet Kier Stalmer on the advice of his then chief of staff still continued to press ahead to appoint in
[1:00:12]December 2020 for Peter Mandlesson to one of the highest one of the most sensitive uh one of the uh key lynchpin roles of the British government to be
[1:00:22]our man in Washington. A job uh that he did barely uh for a year. Uh he was meant to get in there with the White House. Uh we were told he was the only figure that could do it. My
[1:00:33]understanding is the reports were quite mixed about how successful he was about penetrating Donald Trump's White House falling out in part with the chief of staff. So the idea he was the only
[1:00:44]person and carried out a successful job itself in doubt. But that isn't the the problem. The problem and the challenge for number 10 today. The challenge is
[1:00:54]the image of Lord Mandlesson being led away by Metropolitan Police from his Camden home to be interviewed by police on this allegation of leaking sensitive information. He denies and has
[1:01:05]previously denied uh wrongdoing. Uh but this police interview a very very awkward moment. There will be dozens, Mark, dozens of Labour MPs just again
[1:01:16]with their head in their hands asking why K star ignored all of the warning signals whether or not there is one rule for some and another rule for others when it comes to appointments uh when it
[1:01:28]comes to his judgment and how he didn't spot the pitfalls of the Mandlesson appointment when he made it despite all of the warnings in December 2024. It's a
[1:01:38]huge moment and it's a moment that is going to keep delivering trouble for the prime minister because as early as next week the government will have to start releasing documents about Peter
[1:01:49]Mandlesson's appointment. Communications involving Mandolen and about Mandolson uh are going to have to be disclosed as early la as next week uh after a commons
[1:01:59]maneuver by the Tories forced the government's hand and that data will now have to be disclosed putting in the public realm stuff that will be highly highly embarrassing to Karma's
[1:02:09]government at this moment of peril. A moment of peril that sees a bi-election on Thursday and potentially catastrophic local and national elections in May. at this moment where his own side has
[1:02:21]become increasingly restless and he faces the potential of future challenges even from within his own cabinet. So the image of somebody that Kstar mistake a lot of his reputation and ignored a lot
[1:02:32]of warnings to install in one of the biggest positions of his government that has now come crashing down around him catastrophically with the news of this arrest and the image of one of the most
[1:02:44]famous faces in Labour politics being led towards the police car for questioning by the Metropolitan Police. All of that is the last thing Downing
[1:02:53]Street needs right now. Sam, thank you uh very much. Well, that was Sam. We've also got an um co-host of Politics at Sam and Ans. Aren't we
[1:03:04]lucky? Um an >> two surprise of what? We like that. We like a deal like that. Um well, what do you make of it? >> Yeah, just listening to what Sam was
[1:03:14]saying there telling that story of this extraordinary decision really when you look at it by Kia Starmer. There was already a very capable ambassador in post Karen Pierce. It would have been an
[1:03:26]extension for her, it's fair to say, in Washington, but she was very well seen, including it's quite difficult to be in with all the different tribes of the Trump administration, let alone beyond that. But the Trump administration is obviously what we we needed most, Mark,
[1:03:38]to to try to to get the the trade arrangements over the line, as difficult as they've turned out to be. So, Peter Mandlesson just appeared to be someone who would come in, he would bring
[1:03:48]pizzazz. I went to actually the f one of the first long weekends of receptions, aka parties. um which it frequently held and about particularly at this time in
[1:03:58]in I think it's late April at the White House correspondents dinner weekend and there he was really holding court people were impressed by quite frankly by the fact that he could he could do you know evening after evening hosting
[1:04:09]gladhanding disappearing into corners talking to the right people of course you're going to hear different things from different quarters about was he liked was he not but he was seen I think as broadly being
[1:04:20]successful at that and that's why it was just such a crashing moment when it started really to leak out more and more that the relationships with with Epstein had been had been much more intimate
[1:04:31]than he had suggested and the financial dependency and other things you know the things that he seemed to be asking favors for he I don't think he had gone into that detail at all in this >> I mean is it one of the risks of
[1:04:43]appointing a politician as opposed to a you know a a well practiced long-erving diplomat into that position given also
[1:04:53]of course that the politician in this case was pretty high risk. >> Yeah, I mean they would be the two risk factors that you put your finger on there. I suppose the opposing case that
[1:05:05]was made in Downing Street Kstarma still in some ways a rookie prime minister in in dealing with foreign affairs and the Trump administration not easy to deal with. Whether one agrees or or not, I
[1:05:16]think he felt that having someone who understood Labor, who understood his number 10, who had been a serving politician, but who if you like was you fairly sort of flexible in his ideology.
[1:05:28]I don't think you looked at Peter Mandles and thought he's a little lefty, you know, that he get a lot of his friends were on the right, you know, he was able to do that. So that was a new kind of appointment for a new kind of
[1:05:39]era. Now, as it happens, I think the fact that then the vetting was clearly w was done in haste. I mean, I'm told by people close to Peter Bandlesen, who of course will want to defend himself in
[1:05:50]these pictures, and you can see on his face that is this absolutely devastating moment for someone, you know, over 70 years old, who seen himself being at the top um of British politics and the
[1:06:02]British progressive establishment to to be going through this. he will be saying well yeah I answered the questions that you put to me I'm told that at one point some of these vetting conversations were
[1:06:13]moved through very very fast because it was the prime minister's will to get him into that post now clearly there are big questions to answer there um freedom of Anderson for if as we now seeing you know he will be going through
[1:06:25]questioning and whether we do get to a point um of charge for any offense but either way there are massive questions for the vetting process of someone given what exactly what you He'd come from a a
[1:06:36]non-traditional background to an ambassador's post. >> Yeah. Lots of questions about the vetting process. Other questions, too, because um and we have to emphasize he's
[1:06:47]been arrested, not charged, innocent until proved guilty, and he has always denied wrongdoing. Um, but just going to the heart of the allegations, the
[1:06:56]misconduct in public office appears to relate to the time in 2008 when Peter Manderson was right at the heart of of
[1:07:05]Gordon Brown's Downing Street operation. >> Yes. And it's it's really to do with that and to do with the fact that when he was in in government, he was a business secretary, so he had he's in
[1:07:15]cabinet. He had access to all of the discussions and some documentation about what was happening in the aftermath of the major finan global financial crisis.
[1:07:26]The allegation and that is supported to an extent by some things. But of course when you look in the abstine files you're seeing you know you're seeing a particular context of people who thought they were privately communicating. Did
[1:07:37]he at at that point pass information that in some way could be seen as being being damaging to the UK's interests for it to be shared or was he just being gossipy and a bit irresponsible which is
[1:07:49]is is bad but is is obviously not doesn't cross a bar and I think one thing that we're learning if you look also not to compare these two things directly Mark but you know one thing we will learn in the next weeks months as
[1:08:00]we go through this is it's easy to say gosh that person did something they should never have done it whether that clears any sort of bar uh to be potentially an offense and what is and
[1:08:11]isn't in scope there will I think be a big talking point for all of us as we go through this. >> Yes. And um as Sam Coats was saying I
[1:08:21]mean for Kmer and so many Labour MPs these images whether he's guilty not guilty these images are just the wrong
[1:08:33]time isn't it? Yeah, exactly. I mean, if if you're you're seeing I spent last week a broad Munich security conference. We saw Kia Starmmer, you know, putting on a really good good front after a terrible week
[1:08:44]that he'd had when he really, you know, narrowly kept his own job, but then turning up at Munich, putting the UK on the the stage and it in security and defense genuinely an important thing at
[1:08:55]a time of high risk only then, you know, to find that the next images, the next things I'm constantly and others being phoned up and asked about across Europe and beyond is is first is Andrew Mbat
[1:09:07]and Windsor and now Peter Mandals and I wouldn't say the UK is like massively on the front foot in terms of its international marketing campaign at this moment.
[1:09:16]>> No. Although um the the UK is on the front foot when it comes to at least arresting these I mean it was a point made last week to me on the Thursday
[1:09:26]when Amy Wallace who's a biographer for Virginia Zuay uh made the point that actually the police activity that is taking place is taking place
[1:09:36]>> by and large in the UK not in the United States which which was a point well made. It's a point well made after the Epstein files opened everything up, but it was, you know, one could say that
[1:09:48]there was a lack of curiosity about certain aspects of of life. And I don't use the establishment usually in a s word, you know, to sort of throw rotten tomatoes at it. Journalists who think
[1:09:59]close to politics can also be be seen to be kind part of that world in some way. But yes, I think it did. But there is a sort of asymmetric effect on the UK, isn't there? because we have a Peter
[1:10:09]Manderson, we have a major royal involved relative to the size of the country and relative to process. You're right, we are we do seem to be cracking on with it, but in the short term it is,
[1:10:19]I think, not the image that Kama would be wanting to see. Remember, we have a bi-election coming on on Thursday. Again, you know, would you be having this going on if you could design the leaflets? Probably not.
[1:10:30]>> No. Um, but it's a point you made a little earlier which is interesting that this is a man Peter Mandlesson who likes to be in control and now he most
[1:10:39]certainly isn't in control as the police begin these interviews. >> Well indeed I mean I was actually there part of Wiltshire very close to you to one of his his properties were auto I think being searched your reporting now
[1:10:51]is being searched. I think that's a matter of, you know, that is part of the process when this kind of arrest on this kind of of suspicion takes place and, you know, he he will certainly be be able to have his defense and be able to
[1:11:03]to make that. But what you're seeing is there rows and rows of paparazzi in this country lanes in Wiltshire as it happened. He was in London and was we saw the pictures of him getting into the
[1:11:14]car there in London as he was arrested. But I think what you're seeing is a perception, you know, that this is this sort of sickly cycle in which people who one minute are part of the glitz and
[1:11:25]gloss the front foot for Britain and the world or then in being accompanied into police cars looking miserable and traumatized. I mean I think this does have an impact. It does have an impact
[1:11:36]on on politics and as the story is really only beginning in both cases of what finally comes out of it and also what the lessons will be right now. Now I think you you you make a good point to
[1:11:47]say lesson well lessons in one case for the royal family and lessons for politics for the cabinet office for the Labour party for you know for politics as you know lessons for pretty much
[1:11:57]everyone um involved and there will be more than enough blame to go around. Can we get through it having some sort of improvement to our processes rather than a lot of blame shifting and and saying
[1:12:09]it wasn't me? >> And thank you very much for coming in. Let's go straight to Washington. uh US correspondent James Matthews. And James, pretty clear what we're witnessing here
[1:12:19]is the fallout from this huge release of these files and documents. >> Yeah. And you know it's falling far the
[1:12:30]credibility one imagines of the the UK government a UK government that put Lord Mandlesson into position the the most senior position in the diplomatic
[1:12:41]service. The man who was anointed as the point man to negotiate that most sensitive trade deal with the United States. And you know apart from anything
[1:12:52]else the Trump administration will be questioning the the judgment the credibility of uh Sir Kir Starmer how on
[1:13:01]earth could this have happened and for all the talk about release of files communications you know and that will be interesting in itself uh for all the
[1:13:11]talk about government sources saying look don't worry about the vetting we missed nothing even though it was fasttracked what vetting did it need
[1:13:21]beyond actually just reading the paper and finding out that Lord Mandlesson had associations with Jeffrey Epstein had stayed in Jeffrey Epstein's New York
[1:13:31]apartment subsequent to Epstein being convicted of soliciting uh sex from a minor. He stayed in his New York
[1:13:41]apartment. That was a question that I actually asked him uh Mark at a time when I think he reckoned he was on safe ground that he was suitably
[1:13:51]rehabilitated in Washington having spent several months here. We got a call saying look if you're at uh on a particular street at a particular time he's going to walk out of a building
[1:14:02]Mandelon and you can ask him a couple of questions about trade. Um, I I don't know why they thought that we would ask him only about trades. They seem to be
[1:14:13]caught up in the three-dimensional nature of the way that Lord Mandlesson appeared to do politics. For the public, it was perhaps more onedimensional. You
[1:14:23]stayed with a convicted pedophile and sex trafficker. Why on earth did you do that? Let's have a listen to that exchange. In June 2009, did you stay at the
[1:14:34]apartment in Manhattan of Jeffrey Epstein? >> I'm not answering any questions uh about uh him. Uh >> he was in jail at the time for soliciting prostitution from a minor
[1:14:46]>> and my my knowledge of him is something uh that I regret. I wish I'd never met him in the first place. >> Why did you have an association with him? Because he was in jail at the time.
[1:14:57]>> Why why did many people uh meet him? He was a prolific uh networker and I wish I'd never met him in the first place. >> Well, James, he's never thanked you for
[1:15:08]that interview, has he? But um what about this point that was made to me on Thursday by Amy Wallace, the biographer of Virginia Ju about the way the UK is
[1:15:20]moving on this, but not much is happening policewise in the United States. Yeah, to the constonation of Trump's
[1:15:29]critics certainly uh Mark and we do hear on a repeated basis as we learn more about what's in the files actually that question how can so many uh in Donald
[1:15:40]Trump's orbit including the likes of Howard Lutnik who has been exposed as having told mistruths potentially certainly inaccuracies about when he had his last
[1:15:52]association with Jeffrey Epstein. um he's been allowed to stay in place. Nobody appears to have batted an eyelid. I asked one of his Republican
[1:16:01]colleagues, Nancy Mace, how can he still survive in place? Her answer was, well, lying is not a reason to to fire anybody. So that's the the kind of
[1:16:11]firewall that uh people are coming up against. People who question why Donald Trump and his cohorts appear to be
[1:16:20]insulated uh you know, thus far. But you know UK attention clearly on Mandlesson. I can tell you that US attention uh or heads have been turned here. Mark the
[1:16:32]House uh the House Oversight Committee Democrats on that committee which is looking into the whole Epstein affair. It's tweeted this says that Mandlesson's
[1:16:42]been arrested. As we have said before, nobody is above the law. We will make sure. And it's maybe worth just reading
[1:16:51]uh an email that was put out a couple of weeks ago, a letter sent to Mandlesson from two members of that oversight committee. They said this to him
[1:17:02]inviting him to come and give evidence to that oversight committee. Well, you no longer serve as ambassador uh and you've stepped down from the House of Lords. clear you possessed extensive
[1:17:13]social and business ties to Jeffrey Epstein and that you hold critical information pertaining to our investigation of his operations. Given
[1:17:23]the appalling allegations regarding Epstein's conduct, we request that you make yourself available for a transcribed interview with committee staff regarding the crimes of Jeffrey
[1:17:34]Epstein and his co-conspir conspirators. They're interested in the bigger picture. Uh Mark, you know, yes, he's being looked at for misconduct in public
[1:17:45]office as a minister. Uh but clearly there's a big picture relating to Jeffrey Epstein, child sex trafficker. And we have seen in the Epstein files
[1:17:56]contacts between Mandlesson and Epstein. payments made into bank accounts from Epstein. Bank accounts associated with Mandolson. A picture of Mandlesson in
[1:18:06]his pants in Epstein's Paris apartments in the company of a female. There's a birthday book where Mandlesson talks
[1:18:15]about being in the company of people in Epstein's property. Uh and he used the phrase yum yum seemingly referring to
[1:18:25]these people. So, what more don't we know about Mandlesson? What other questions beyond the questions inside a UK police station does he have to answer
[1:18:35]about the wider Jeffrey Epstein crimes? >> James, thank you very much indeed. Let's talk to uh Adam Bolton, political
[1:18:46]commentator. And uh Adam, good evening. Thanks very much for being with us. And you have seen a thing or two in British politics. So, what do you make of this? >> Well, it's extremely shocking. I can't
[1:18:57]recall a former cabinet minister being arrested by the police. I think we do have to take a step back. While undoubtedly, uh, political opponents will do what
[1:19:08]they can to, uh, attack the prime minister for his judgment in making him an ambassador. Theoretically, what we know about what's happened today could
[1:19:18]have happened if if Karma had never sent Peter Mandlesson to Washington because this police investigation about misconduct in public office, as they
[1:19:28]say, uh relates to what was revealed in the Epstein files, which is about what Peter Mandlesson did uh in uh 2009 and
[1:19:37]2010 when he was a minister, a trade minister in Gordon Brown's government. So, in that sense, they're direct
[1:19:46]parallels to this arrest today and the arrest last week uh of former Prince Andrew. And I think everyone has really been expecting that if Prince Andrew was
[1:19:57]arrested in that way by the police then uh Peter Manderson would be arrested. And so it has come to pass. uh and uh what has happened to both of them is
[1:20:09]they have been caught out by the dump of information in the United States by the Department of Justice of the Epstein files and people have gone through uh
[1:20:20]that material are still going through it because it's so massive 3 million documents and they have turned up very very incriminating things about Peter
[1:20:30]Madison and indeed about former Prince Andrew which although of course they reflect on their friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's conviction uh
[1:20:41]as a um pedophile, they actually relate to how holding an official post and betraying the information you were given
[1:20:52]on a confidential basis in that post to Jeffrey Epstein who of course was an American and also a financier in a position perhaps to exploit uh that
[1:21:03]official information. So that is what they are being charged with and the truth of the matter is however many people now are saying I always knew
[1:21:13]Peter Mandlesson was a wrongan or I always knew that former Prince Andrew was a wrongan that it's only that forensic information not revealed by journalists but revealed by the
[1:21:24]department of justice in America which has brought them into this position for their past behavior. Yes. And I mean you make the point that
[1:21:35]if um if um he hadn't been appointed by Kama, he could well ste still be in this position um this evening. He could still
[1:21:45]be under arrest this evening. But I mean it was it became a question of of judgment hanging over Kama because he did uh appoint him. >> Yeah. I think there's no doubt about it
[1:21:56]that Peter Mandlesson was a very prominent very controversial figure. In fact, you know, divisions even within number 10 Downing Street as to whether it was worth taking the risk of a man who, you know, was an experienced
[1:22:07]politician, a trade expert, uh, sending him to Washington. Uh, and Karma in the in the end took the decision that it was. And and clearly, uh, with
[1:22:18]hindsight, uh, that was a mistake. Uh, and people will say, well, you know, we always knew Peter Manderson was going to blow up at some point. Indeed, some of
[1:22:28]the people who knew him very well dating back to his time in new labor in the Blair government uh were shaking their heads and saying that it was a big mistake uh to send Peter Mandlesson. The
[1:22:39]other point I think is important to bear out in terms of uh the prime minister's responsibility is Karma has said on the
[1:22:49]record that Peter Manslson lied and lied to him about the extent of his uh friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. And
[1:23:00]what was revealed in those documents I think has shocked everybody who knows Peter Manderson. People didn't know the extent of his friendship. They certainly
[1:23:08]didn't know that allegedly uh Mandlesson and his uh now husband uh were taking money from Epstein and above all they
[1:23:20]didn't know that Peter Mandlesson was passing on government information to Epstein and I have to say that you know talking to people who know Peter Mandles
[1:23:30]very well there is a massive sense of betrayal uh by Peter Mandles about Peter Mandlesson because Even after the information came out about his
[1:23:40]friendship with Epstein, he was being asked by some people, well, is there anything more to come out? And he said, oh no, absolutely not. And now it comes
[1:23:50]out subsequently that he's been passing government information uh to Epstein and that I think has led to, you know, him really falling out with a lot of those
[1:24:02]people who might be inclined uh to uh support him. On top of that, it's also important to remember that the uh firm
[1:24:11]global council uh which uh was set up by him and one of his former advisers Ben WG Proer announced this week that that
[1:24:20]has gone into uh effective liquidation. So uh before all this um it was believed that that company was worth uh you know
[1:24:31]to Peter Mandlesson or and to Ben WG Proer the chief executive worth millions and now it's worth nothing. So that is
[1:24:41]very sad. But even worse, by going into liquidation, a large number of those people who were employed by global council are losing their jobs and they
[1:24:52]were completely innocent from any of this involvement uh with Epstein. So he has had an absolutely catastroic a catastrophic impact on the people around
[1:25:03]him. uh whereas if one looks at Prince Andrew, the impact of what he's done is probably confined to the royal family. >> I mean, you make the point about um you
[1:25:13]know, Karma saying he was lied and lied to and lied to again. And we'll know more about this of course because this afternoon the chief secretary of the treasury Darren Jones has confirmed the
[1:25:23]government will publish uh this first branch of documents relating to that whole episode of Mandlesson's appointment to uh to become US
[1:25:34]ambassador and they'll release those unless this arrest changes this of course um they'll release those in early March and one wonders what they will show. I mean these this could be you
[1:25:44]know a huge number of documents and emails of contacts between Kier Starmer and Peter Manderson other people at the heart of number 10 and Peter Manderson. >> Yeah, I think that's certainly the case.
[1:25:55]Although of course as we understand it uh as far as getting stuff into the public domain uh whatever Downing Street releases uh will have to be reviewed by
[1:26:05]the intelligence and security committee chaired by Lord Beish uh a former Labour MP and they are going to take into account uh impact on foreign affairs and
[1:26:16]national security. So we may not quite see everything, but I think you know it's not putting two and two together to make five to say that the departures of
[1:26:27]Morgan Mweeny uh from his job as uh the chief of staff to the prime minister and also uh of Tim Allen as the newly
[1:26:36]appointed media guru uh to the prime minister are related to the fact that they were uh close allies in the past of
[1:26:46]Peter Mandlesson and probably uh some of the messages discussing his appointment uh will be uh an embarrassment to them. Uh it's interesting uh that there's been
[1:26:58]very little focus on Jonathan Powell who of course uh was Tony Blair's chief of staff in Downing Street for 10 years knows Peter Manson very well uh and is now the national security adviser. Uh it
[1:27:10]is being said, I don't have proof of this, that Jonathan Powell, although he knew Peter Mandlesson very well, was one of those people advising caution to Karma in terms of appointing him as the
[1:27:22]ambassador. And I think it is important to say that although it's about offenses which were committed more than 10 years ago that are being
[1:27:32]investigated or potential offenses are being investigated, certainly the prominence uh of Peter Manderson uh seeking that office of going to Washington uh giving reassurances to the
[1:27:44]prime minister have undoubtedly uh contributed to the focus on him and uh the uh heights from which he's fallen.
[1:27:54]uh it's also uh I think um you know significant to say that uh there were many people I was one of them many journalists who felt that it was worth
[1:28:05]taking the risk uh in appointing Peter Mandlesson because of his skills uh politically and in trade matters but that was without the knowledge of what was in the Epstein papers and of course
[1:28:17]Peter Mandlesson himself has said that he didn't have access to uh his past email accounts and his contacts with uh Jeffrey Epstein. So he didn't
[1:28:26]necessarily know uh the full extent of what was going to be revealed which has proved absolutely ruinous for him. >> Adam, thank you very much for uh coming
[1:28:36]on and being with us. Appreciate that. We should just point out uh once again that Lord Mandlesson has repeatedly uh denied uh all wrongdoing. He's previously apologized for maintaining
[1:28:48]his relationship with Epstein, which he uh admitted went on uh far too long. Um we've got more details of the timing of
[1:29:00]the uh operation uh the police arrest of Manderson uh Lord Manderson this afternoon. They went into his home in
[1:29:07]Camden at uh 16 minutes past 4. Uh that's when they entered his house and uh 28 minutes later at 16:44
[1:29:19]uh they loft uh left rather the property uh with him. Uh as we heard of his arrest, my colleague Ali Foriscu was recording an interview with the shadow
[1:29:30]chancellor Saml Stride for tonight's politics hub. Uh she got his reaction to the breaking news. Well, I I think it also speaks to a lack of judgment on the part of the prime minister and part of
[1:29:41]the process now of getting to the bottom of exactly what happened will also be uh what happened around his appointment, what information was known at what time and by uh whom and were the right
[1:29:52]decisions justifiable decisions taken in that context. So there's a lot that we need to know about, but it does seem to me that you've got a rather chaotic number 10. Uh a prime minister whose
[1:30:03]judgment has been severely lacking, not just in that, but in issues around others like uh Matthew Doyle for example. Um and now we've got this situation with the journalist Gabriel
[1:30:14]Program who was uh uh investigated at the behest of labor together and there are lots of issues around that. We've got Lori Magnus the ethics adviser looking into that as well. There just
[1:30:24]seems to be this swirl of poor judgment and uh you know inappropriate things going on in and around number 10. >> Policing and crime commentator, former
[1:30:37]adviser to Iette Cooper, Danny Shaw. Good evening and thank you for being with us. So, well, we have these now two highprofile
[1:30:46]um men um being investigated, interviewed, have been arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office. >> Yes. Extraordinary, isn't it, Mark? Um,
[1:30:56]you know, last week, um, Andrew Mountbatton Windsor, senior member of the royal family, taken away in a police car, held in, um, custody in a police station for 10 to 11 hours, and then
[1:31:08]driven back on suspicion of misconduct in public office, not in the clear, released under investigation, and now Lord Mandlesson, Peter Mandlesson, ex-Cabinet minister, ex- British
[1:31:18]ambassador to the United States just a few months ago in the White House uh, with Sakir Stalmer and and Donald Trump
[1:31:28]um and now you know being taken away in in a police car to a police station for questioning also under the offense of misconduct in public office. I mean
[1:31:38]these are extraordinary moments. What we need to remember though I think is that the police investigations in both cases and they're separate investigations one by temps valley police this by Metropolitan Police are in the early
[1:31:49]stages. That's quite clear. There's there'll be a lot of documents to go through. Um when police question Peter Mandolson, they will hear presumably his
[1:32:00]side of the story. He will give an account. Um he will have a lawyer present, I'm sure. Um and so police will then have to go away and assess what he's told them uh together with the
[1:32:11]other information they've got uh before deciding what to do next, whether they continue their investigations or whether they move to to make a decision about a charge or not.
[1:32:22]Although they involve allegations um that have emerged from these documents um these allegations are from way back what 2008
[1:32:33]you know suggestions of an exchange of emails between Lord and Manderson and Epstein about banker's bonus policy and so forth. Um so um you know not easy to
[1:32:44]fully investigate. Well, what they've got to do, they've got the these emails from the tranch of files, the Epstein files, about 3 million documents or so. What they've got to do is to try and get
[1:32:55]the unredacted copies of those emails because many of those emails have names blanked out or photographs blanked out. So, they want to see that. They want to probably see the emails in their
[1:33:05]entirety to get the full context behind them. That's really important. There may be other documents and emails um held on
[1:33:14]digital devices at Mandolson's homes in Wiltshire or Camden that they will have wanted to look at. There'll be further context around that. And then I suppose
[1:33:25]it's it's looking at the wider picture about you know this information that was allegedly passed on. Was that information already in the public domain? um was that part of a a bigger
[1:33:36]pattern of information sharing that was common practice that these are all all things that they need to to bottom out um and they will do that presumably by questioning him. He will have been
[1:33:48]expecting this these police interviews. Um he's been around long enough to know that police have been searching his properties. He saw what what happened to Andrew Mountbat and Windsor. he will
[1:33:58]have known that he will be required to answer questions in custody and I'm sure will have been thinking about about that and how he's going to approach that. So, this will have come as no surprise. He
[1:34:09]knows that the photographers have been camped outside uh his his addresses. He's used to that publicity, but still uh for a former cabinet minister to be
[1:34:19]led off under arrest and to be booked into a police station, swapped for DNA, fingerprinted, mugsh shot taken, held in a police cell. That is quite a moment.
[1:34:29]And uh Danny, it was while we were on air on Thursday that we heard that the Home Office had been informed of the arrest of Andrew just momentarily. We
[1:34:40]think before it had happened. Do you think that the government would have been informed about this? >> No. And I sincerely hope they were not informed about this. I mean, this is a
[1:34:51]rest of a a Labor politician. Um so it would be completely inappropriate for the government um anyone in the government be it the prime minister or the home sector anyone else to be told
[1:35:02]about his arrest. I can understand just about understand why the home office was tipped off um about Andrew Mountbatten Windsor's uh arrest because you know
[1:35:14]there are security implications I suppose with with such a high-profile uh operation like that. Um, and so I I can understand that to some extent. Um,
[1:35:26]although I hope they won't give him much advanced notice, but this there will be no justification I can see for anyone knowing about it in advance. >> Danny, good to talk to you again. Thank
[1:35:36]you very much indeed. Going to speak more to an Melvoy in just a moment, but let's go to our correspondent Molly Malone who is now outside the uh London
[1:35:45]home of Lord Mandlesson where he uh was arrested uh this afternoon. and just uh uh bring us up to date. What what what's
[1:35:54]the scene there, Molly? >> Well, we've known for a couple of weeks that police have been investigating Peter Mandlesson. We've seen them search
[1:36:03]properties at uh linked to um him in Wiltshire and also here in central London. But a significant development came just after 5:00 as the Metropolitan
[1:36:13]Police confirmed that they'd arrested a 72year-old man on suspicion of misconduct in a public office. as we saw those pictures of Peter Mandlesson being
[1:36:23]led out of his home in central London just near Regent's Park by officers. Now this is all as we know following allegations following the release of a
[1:36:34]load of documents relating to the convicted pedophile and financia Jeffrey Epstein a couple of weeks ago now go now and as we know in those documents we saw
[1:36:44]we appeared to see uh Peter Mandlesson communicating with Jeffrey Apstein allegations of course that he communicated with with him and shared
[1:36:54]market sensitive information when he was a cabinet minister when he was business secretary at the height he height uh of the new Labor government. He was a figure, a political figure at the very
[1:37:05]heart of Downing Street. Now, we should say Peter Mandlesson has long denied any wrongdoing, not responding specifically to these allegations, but he's denied any wrongdoing, saying that his
[1:37:17]relationship with Jeffrey Epstein went on for too long and apologizing for that. But what as we've been hearing in the last couple of hours will happen to him now is that even though despite the
[1:37:27]fact that he is was a man at the very heart of the Downing Street operation in the eyes of the law, he will be treated as any ordinary citizen, he will be uh checked into police custody, an
[1:37:39]undisclosed police station. He'll have his DNA uh swabbed and he'll face police questioning. Interestingly, we've been hearing from police commentators, um,
[1:37:49]our own Graeme Weton in the last couple of hours, saying that the police in this case have arrested Peter Mandlesson fairly late in the day. Could it be, suggested Graeme Weton, that they end up
[1:38:00]questioning him not in the early hours of the morning, suggesting that that's not normally typical, but instead perhaps holding him in a cell overnight and questioning him further perhaps in the morning. But a significant
[1:38:12]development of course arresting Peter Mandlesson a man for so long for four decades at the top of politics at the heart of the new labor operation
[1:38:21]arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office. >> Molly thank you very much indeed and Mckelvo is still with me here. So um I
[1:38:32]mean there's no question about it. It is a as Sam coat said earlier a a seminal moment in in British politics. Sam and Ian don't always agree but I think I
[1:38:43]think as listeners to the podcast may know but I think on this absolutely I do agree with Sam it is a seinal moment in everything that we're seeing there even these very unfortunate optics that we've
[1:38:54]just been watching there on the screen and what that says and the questions that it throws up not just about judgment but I think the deeper question and I enjoyed what Adam Milton had to say I see a couple of things there a
[1:39:05]little bit differently I do think that Peter Manderson was someone who had immense self-belief if he had some swagger, he had poise, he was swave, he was very funny, very witty, and he could also be be quite cruel and quite
[1:39:16]cutting. And I think people took him at his own estimation. And I think this may be, you know, the the moral of the story. Whatever happens in terms of like
[1:39:25]the legal procedures and what he is in the end guilty of, innocent of, as you say, quite rightly to keep repeating, he denies wrongdoing, but he does accept a quite that he made a considerable
[1:39:37]misjudgment. I remember him saying to me, it came back to me when I was watching that Mark at the one of these big events when he was in full pomp and I asked I said oh come on let's go and get a bit of a political gossip of
[1:39:47]what's going on and he said drew himself up and said I am a diplomat now I you know I don't get involved in all this scuttle button about politics he had that ability to shapeshift and to take
[1:39:58]other people with him largely and to be believed in his own Adam said he was a trade expert I would say I don't see an awful lot of proof of that in the biography he certainly did go as trade commissioner to Brussels. If you talk to
[1:40:09]the Brussels bubble, I think they always saw him as a politician on loan for the UK. Was certainly not only his fault that various trade rounds didn't work out, but I don't I think he was he was someone who was good at lots or is
[1:40:21]someone I should say he's still with us. Yeah. Good at many different things. Communication, conviction. He's someone who could convince other people that he was right. That's a great political
[1:40:31]skill. It does come sometimes with a bit of a downside when you convince yourself that nothing you're doing is is perhaps you know needs a more kind of testing eye or you should step back from it.
[1:40:42]>> Right. And just a final thought from you on the impact of the pictures that we have been seeing this evening on K star and his government. >> There's a lot of heads in hands around
[1:40:52]number 10 these days for the last couple of weeks for a kind of concatenation uh of problems. I think Peter Mandlesson that one will strike deep in Kestramama
[1:41:03]because yes as Adam was pointing out this would all still have happened but it wouldn't have happened to someone who had if you like had the benediction of a prime minister to be his trusted ally
[1:41:14]not just to the US but in the relationship back to him personally in number 10 that will hurt Kristama very much and I think he will be feeling it very deeply as he watches these pictures today.
[1:41:25]>> Okay and thank you very much for coming in. Um I appreciate it. Thank you. Right, joining me now is former senior policy advisor Ed Milliban. Sonia Soda, good evening. Thanks for being with us.
[1:41:36]And just first your thoughts about these events. >> Well, I agree with what Sam Coats and Mckelvoy uh were just saying, which is this is a hugely significant moment in
[1:41:48]British politics. It's really really awkward for the prime minister. Peter Mandel is a man that he appointed to be ambassador to the US. There was already
[1:41:58]information in the public domain about the fact that he was close to Jeffrey Epstein. Obviously, we didn't know about some of the revelations that have come
[1:42:08]out of the Epstein files. Um, and th those documents have now uh led to his arrest. Um, and the police are
[1:42:18]investigation investigating him uh for the crime of misconduct in public office. He obviously denies um any wrongdoing, >> right? Of course, at the moment he
[1:42:29]denies any wrongdoing and we need to keep emphasizing that. But nevertheless, these pictures, Sonia, pretty disastrous for number 10.
[1:42:40]>> It is. I mean, I think it would have been just a really shocking moment in British politics anyway. But the fact that he Peter Mandlesson was appointed by the prime minister to be US
[1:42:51]ambassador, it was quite a controversial appointment at the time. There were people at the time in his party who felt that it wasn't the right thing to do. Uh
[1:43:02]that there was too much swirling around Peter Mandelson um you know that that meant that he really shouldn't have been put in that role. Um, and I think, you
[1:43:12]know, it's the fact that this isn't just about Labor past and what happened during uh the new Labor government
[1:43:20]during uh 1997 to 2010. There was a very uh deliberate uh focus on bringing him
[1:43:29]back into government by Kharma by appointing him ambassador to the US. hugely important diplomatic role, probably the most important role in the
[1:43:38]diplomatic service. So, um it's hard not to see these images and think about the consequences not just for labor administration's past, but this labor
[1:43:50]administration as well. But he was trusted by clearly trusted by Kia Stalmer, trusted also of course to by Tony Blair and trusted by Gordon Brown
[1:44:00]very close to Gordon Brown in Gordon Brown's government when these emails are alleged to have been um sent to Jeffrey Epstein with the you know the
[1:44:11]allegations that this is all about. >> That's right. And I think what's quite extraordinary actually is if you look at the role that Gordon Brown is now playing. So Gordon Brown is going the
[1:44:21]former prime minister who uh had of course Peter Mandelson in his government. He was playing a really important role during the financial crisis. He was de facto the deputy prime
[1:44:31]minister as business secretary. And we know from the Epstein leaks now there is evidence of emails that he sent to Jeffrey Epstein that appeared to share
[1:44:41]confidential government information with Jeffrey Epstein, market sensitive information. So he was in Gordon Brown's government uh and now Gordon Brown is
[1:44:51]going through the files himself uh pulling out things, sending things to the police. Uh I think particularly in relation to Andrew Mountbatton Windsor
[1:45:01]and in relation to uh the flight logs of uh jets, Jeffrey Epstein's jets that were landing in the UK. So it's quite a
[1:45:09]sort of uh striking about turn. And just finally, do these images that we're seeing, the arrest of Peter Mandlesson,
[1:45:19]does this sort of thing impact bi-elections? >> Um, I mean, I I suspect that a lot of this will have sort of
[1:45:30]been priced into what's happening in the bi-election. Of course, you've got a bi-election on Thursday in Gordon and Denton. So um I you know I I think
[1:45:40]many people might have been expecting this in the wake of Andrew Mountbatten Windsor's arrest but I think it's certainly not good news for the government. If you look at what voters are saying in focus groups there's huge
[1:45:52]disengagement with mainstream politics. Voters really don't feel like politics is is working for them. And there are a number of voters who sort of feel like well all mainstream politicians are the
[1:46:02]same. They're just in it for themselves. um you know there sort of uh evidence of corruption or whatever that is a strong feeling when you talk to voters. So it's certainly not going to do Labour any favors.
[1:46:14]>> Sonia, thank you very much for coming on. Let's speak now to Donald McIntyre, author of Peter Mandlesson's biography, Mandlesson and the Making of New Labor. Good evening. Thanks for being with us
[1:46:24]and your reaction to Lord Mandlesson's arrest. Well, I mean it's it's obviously very bad news uh for him and it's pretty bad news for the government as well
[1:46:36]though. I I mean just at the risk of spawning the party here, can I just say that we have to remember in terms of Karma, I mean I think my own view is
[1:46:46]that he made a a bad mistake by appointing him as ambassador when as everybody's already said to you, he knew that there was a link with Epstein. Of
[1:46:57]course, the things that Mandlesson is being arrested under suspicion for uh are not are not the not anything to do with
[1:47:06]Karma. They are to do with the fact that he leaked uh material, extremely sensitive material uh at the time that he was working for Gordon Brown. So I
[1:47:18]mean I just I don't want to sound like a labor apparach which is the last thing I am but um it it just needs sort of slightly disagregating from the problem
[1:47:28]of karma. Now the the big issue for Stara is he keeps saying that Mandela lied to him
[1:47:36]at the time of the uh appointment to the embassy in Washington. And apparently we're going to get more information next week on exactly what that means because
[1:47:47]we've had very little detail about that. We don't even know whether Karma sort of looked Peter Mandlesson in the eye and said, "What is this relationship with Jeffrey Epstein?"
[1:47:57]>> Yeah. I mean, what I'm interested in is how you think Peter Manderson will be taking this to today, this this arrest. I mean, he's a man who likes to be in
[1:48:09]control and he's not in control now, clearly. >> Well, that's true. Um, I mean, you know, his famous remark after losing in Heartley Pool, I'm a fighter, not a
[1:48:19]quitter, uh, is very much actually in his DNA, even in terrible situations. I mean, he fought very hard to keep his job after years and years ago, but way
[1:48:31]back in uh uh the early 2000s when he took a big loan from uh Jeffrey Robinson. Uh he fought to keep his job then unsuccessfully and again when he uh
[1:48:42]was Northern Ireland secretary and uh intervened in the Hindu's attitude to the passport. I mean, I'm sure he will get good legal advice and I'm also sure
[1:48:53]that he will want to, you know, he will not surrender over this. Uh, as people have already said to you, he apparently, though he hasn't made any public
[1:49:03]comment, uh, insists that he wasn't doing this for gain. Um, misconduct in public office, as you've already also been told, is quite a complicated issue.
[1:49:14]So, I mean, I'm sure he will, you know, I'm sure he'll get a good lawyer and I'm sure he'll he'll, you know, resist. I mean, I don't think he'll be suddenly confessing. Put it that way.
[1:49:26]>> Yeah. And he's had to leave governments before resignations and so forth. What is it about Peter Manderson that uh and you know, and sailing close to the wind?
[1:49:37]Well, it's a it's a really good question and you know I'm not a psychiatrist but I think one of the striking things about Mandlesson is that he was brilliant in
[1:49:49]his earlier days as a politician at sort of anticipating political trouble ahead for the Labour party or for the
[1:49:58]government that um he was you know when he was in government. I I mean the paradox is that he's always been absolutely terrible at um judging the
[1:50:09]potential pitfalls in his own career and I I I mean I I you know I don't I am at a loss to explain that. I mean it's true as an MVO told you that he has a lot of
[1:50:21]self-belief but there's some blind spot in working out what he can get away with. certainly was always a risk taker. No question. Both politically and
[1:50:32]personally. But why he didn't see that transmitting market sensitive information to Jeffrey Epstein, if indeed, you know, well, we know he did
[1:50:43]actually, um, was a dangerous thing against a protocol which, you know, he'd been used to. He was he'd been held two
[1:50:52]major cabinet offices before. one in the ultra sensitive post of the Northern Ireland office. So, you know, I I I wish I had a clearer answer to give you, but I
[1:51:04]>> Well, and and this this well, I was going to say strange attraction to rich men, but I mean, it explains itself, but I mean, he that is a that is part of his, you know, part of his life.
[1:51:15]>> Yes, it is. I mean, it didn't, I think, become part of his life until two things happened. One was that when it became fairly clear that Tony Blair was going
[1:51:27]to win the 1997 election and Peter Mandlesson was known to be one of his closest advisors, doors started to open
[1:51:37]to you know rich and powerful people and then again that was accentuated when he became business secretary. He was actually quite a good business secretary, but it certainly brought him
[1:51:48]into contact and actually including in the United States with rich rich people. >> Donald, we got to leave it there. I'm sorry to interrupt you. We've got to
[1:51:59]leave it there, but I appreciate you coming on. We've run out of time. And the news uh tonight is that Lord Mandlesson has been arrested on
[1:52:09]suspicion of misconduct in public office. The Metropolitan Police uh said the 72year-old was taken to a London
[1:52:18]police station for interview uh this evening. There we are. That was the NewsHour. Thanks very much for watching. Coming up next, Alli Forscu with the
[1:52:28]Politics Hub. Just taking
[1:55:34]I think it's enough. Hello, good evening. You're watching the
[1:56:06]Politics Hub. We're going to get straight to some big breaking news tonight. Peter Mandlesson has been arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office. These are the pictures of
[1:56:17]his arrest which show him being led away from his home by police officers and into an unmarked car. Shortly after, the Metropolitan Police said this in a statement.
[1:56:28]Officers have arrested a 72y old man on suspicion of misconduct in public office. He was arrested at an address in Camden on Monday the 23rd of February
[1:56:39]and has been taken to a London police station for interview. This follows search warrants at two addresses in the Wiltshire and Camden areas.
[1:56:50]Well, we should say straight away that Lord Manlson has repeatedly denied all wrongdoing. He previously apologized for maintaining his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, which he admitted went
[1:57:01]on too long. Well, as you can see, we have packed the studio tonight with top talent to discuss throughout the hour. We will get their thoughts very shortly, but first,
[1:57:12]let's go straight to our deputy political editor, Sam Coat, who's in Greater Manchester. Sam, I mean, hard to overstate the significance of all of this for the
[1:57:21]Labor Party, isn't it? >> That's right, Ally, with that short Metropolitan uh police statement, a seismic moment
[1:57:31]for politics. You saw Lord Mandlesson, Peter Mandolson being led away in the Gile face thunderous by the Metropolitan
[1:57:41]Police. It's a significant moment, as you say, hard to overstate. Just six months ago, he was one of the halfozen most senior figures in K Starmmer's
[1:57:52]government. He was our man in Washington, subject to the secrets and the relationship with Donald Trump. Now, his career in ruins and facing police
[1:58:03]investigation following that arrest in public, in the glare of the public light earlier this afternoon. This is a tragedy uh uh of proportions for the
[1:58:14]Labour Party and it is an incredibly perilous moment for Lord Mandolen. The allegation is that he passed confidential government secrets to the
[1:58:25]pedophile Jeffrey Epstein when he was business secretary in Gordon Brown's government in the late uh 20 uh 2000s.
[1:58:35]uh that is at the heart of the allegation of misconduct in public office that the Metropolitan Police say they have arrested uh Peter Mlesson and
[1:58:45]are interviewing him as we speak uh about. But this is a treacherous moment for Kier Starma as well because it was Kier Starmmer personally who overrode
[1:58:55]all of the objections who cast aside all of the doubts about Lord Mandlesson, his checkered previous career, his links to Jeffrey Epstein after the point at which
[1:59:06]he was jailed uh for uh uh his engagement uh with uh young women. uh all of that put aside in order to put uh
[1:59:16]uh Peter Mandlesson in the embassy in Washington to manage the return of Donald Trump for the second time and Britain's relationship with his White
[1:59:25]House. He would he they decided that Peter Manelsson was in the words of a cabinet minister worth the risk because of his ability to help forge that
[1:59:36]relationship. far from clear uh that even Peter Mandelson's ability to do that was beyond doubt. Complaints from the Trump White House that he wound them up, didn't forge the closest of
[1:59:46]relationships, but really the disaster for Labour much broader than that as Kier Stalmer faces questions about why he gave in to the suggestion uh
[1:59:57]persistent suggestion from his chief of staff Morgan Mweeny uh to appoint Lord Mandlesson uh with whom Morgan Mweeny was uh very close. uh why he chose not
[2:00:07]to interrogate the allegations about Jeffrey Epstein uh that were in the public domain at the point of his appointment uh more closely uh that might have provided the kind of red flag that would have stopped that
[2:00:19]appointment. Instead, uh, Peter Mandlesson was sacked last September and now is with the police, uh, uh, under allegations, uh, being questioned under
[2:00:29]allegations of misconduct in public office at an absolutely perilous moment for Kier Star Dharma himself. It's the last thing he wants, his judgment being questioned at this point as he faces the
[2:00:41]potential of a difficult bi-election this week, potentially catastrophic elections in May. There are figures in his own cabinet who are circling to potentially take over from him. Uh and
[2:00:52]he is recording some of the worst polling on record for any prime minister. The events of today are the last thing K star would have wanted to see. >> And the timing, Sam, is interesting,
[2:01:03]isn't it? Because we have the chief secretary to the prime minister, Darren Jones, just before we find out that Peter Mandlesson's been arrested saying that we're going to get some of the documents relating to his appointment as
[2:01:14]soon as next week. That's right. The arrest is not the only bit of bad news for Kier Dharma when it comes to Peter Mandelen. The uh a vote
[2:01:26]in Parliament uh a maneuver by the tries in Parliament a couple of weeks ago is forcing the government to disclose potentially tens of thousands of pieces
[2:01:36]of correspondence involving Peter Mandlesson about Peter Mandlesson in the runup and duration of his time as ambassador. uh that they are being uh
[2:01:46]required to disclose uh after essentially losing the argument with their own MPs uh to try and keep stuff secret. Now Karma faces wave upon wave
[2:01:56]of the kind of documentation revealing the inner workings of our diplomacy and our political system that no government would find easy uh to withstand reaching the glare of of the of publicity. Uh
[2:02:08]that no government will find would find in any way comfortable and that is now coming. disclosure starting as early as next week. We are told some documents held back because of the police
[2:02:19]investigation fears it could compromise that. Uh but I think even uh the smallest amount will be picked upon uh now and will provide another reason uh
[2:02:29]another uh area of danger for Karma in the weeks and months ahead. >> Okay, thanks so much Sam Coats. Well, Skies Molly Manone is outside Peter Mandlesson's house in North London. Uh
[2:02:40]Molly, what can you just remind us of what exactly happened there? >> Well, we've known for weeks that police have been investigating Peter Mandlesson. We've seen them conduct
[2:02:51]searches here at this central London home near Regent Park, but also another property linked to Peter Mandlesson in Wiltshire. But that significant development came just after 5:00 uh this
[2:03:03]evening after the Metropolitan Police confirmed that they'd arrested a 72year-old man on suspicion of misconduct in a public office. And we saw those pictures of Peter Mandlesson
[2:03:15]being led out of his property by police officers. Now this is all as we know after allegations that had been uh mounting for a couple of weeks after the
[2:03:26]release of a load of documents related to the convicted pedophile and financia Jeffrey Epstein. Uh, and we appeared in some of those documents to see Peter
[2:03:35]Mandlesson communicating with him with allegations suggesting that he'd been sending Jeffrey Epstein sensitive government market sensitive uh,
[2:03:45]information while he was in government at the heart of the new Labor government while he was a cabinet minister and while he was business secretary appearing allegations suggesting that he
[2:03:56]was offering details sensitive government details and details of an EU bailout. Now, we should say that Peter Mandlesson has long denied any wrongdoing. He'd previously said sorry
[2:04:07]and admitted that his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein had gone on for too long, but he hadn't been responding to specific allegations, though had been
[2:04:16]denying any wrongdoing. Um what will be happening to him this evening though is that despite the fact that he was at the very heart of the Downing Street operation despite the fact that until
[2:04:27]very recently he was a top diplomat. He was Britain's man in Washington he will in the eyes of the law be treated in the same way as any other detainee any other citizen that had been arrested. He will
[2:04:39]be checked in uh to custody into police custody and undisclosed police station. He will have his DNA swabbed. He will be searched and then he will face uh police
[2:04:50]questioning. We've been hearing from police commentators throughout the course of the last couple of hours and our own uh Gray and Weton m making the point that police actually made this
[2:05:00]arrest arresting Peter Manderson fairly late in the day s saying that it's not typical really for police to conduct interviews in the early hours of the morning. So Gray and Wetton suggesting
[2:05:11]that we could have a situation uh where Peter Mandlesson is perhaps held in a cell overnight and then further questioned tomorrow morning. The truth though is that really we don't know at
[2:05:21]the moment. They are in the early stages of their investigation and it will be now for the legal process to play out. Okay Molly, thank you very much. You can see uh live pictures there outside Peter
[2:05:33]Mandlesson's house in Camden. Well, earlier my colleague Mark Austin got the reaction from skills minister Baroness Jackie Smith shortly after news of Peter
[2:05:42]Manderson's arrest broke. I I was the home secretary, so I think I know better than to comment on what is clearly an ongoing police investigation.
[2:05:52]The police will do what they need to do in relation to this arrest and this investigation. But I suppose it just behooves us once again to remember first
[2:06:04]of all that anybody who knows anything about uh Jeffrey Epstein should of course be providing uh that information. And once again we need to keep at the
[2:06:15]heart of our thoughts the victims of his activity. And that's what I'll be doing this evening. >> These are images which will um not go
[2:06:25]down well in Downing Street at all. more problems for Kier Starmmer because it does reflect on Kier Starmmer's decision to appoint him as ambassador to Washington in the first place. >> Well, of course, as soon as K Starmmer
[2:06:37]understood what the reality of Peter Mandelson's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein was, he sacked him uh in the middle of the night actually. So, uh you know, I think that's an important uh
[2:06:48]area of judgment. But you know, yeah, of course, to be frank, I mean, I'm here today to talk about a really important uh set of reforms that the government is undertaking for children in our schools
[2:07:00]with special educational needs. That's what I'd rather be talking about. >> Well, isn't this the the issue here that here we are, Peter Mandles is on the left of your screen and we're not going
[2:07:10]to move away from this story? I mean, isn't it the, you know, isn't that the problem about the way that Peter Mandles behaved where we don't know whether
[2:07:21]he's, you know, guilty of misconduct in public office or not, but it is dominating uh the news and um you're not getting in what you want to talk about,
[2:07:30]which is which is um schools. Well, uh, it is at this moment, and I think I've been pretty clear about our responsibility, uh, as public servants to allow the police to get on with
[2:07:41]their, uh, investigation. But for years to come, what will make a real difference to our children, is whether or not we've got an education system that allows them to achieve their full
[2:07:52]potential, including those children with special educational needs. And that's the reason why today we've made important announcements about how we invest more money in providing the
[2:08:02]support that those children need without their parents having to fight lengthy legal battles uh to get that support for their children. >> Okay. Um the other thing we've learned
[2:08:13]in the last few minutes is that uh the chief secretary Darren Jones has said that the government expects to publish this first branch of documents relating
[2:08:23]to Peter Mandlesson's appointment as US ambassador in early March. How embarrassing could that be for uh the government? I mean these will quite
[2:08:33]possibly be a huge tranch including personal you know correspondence and messages between prime minister and Mandlesson and other people at the heart of Downing Street and Peter Manderson.
[2:08:45]Well, of course, the reason why they're being published is because the prime minister has been absolutely clear uh that he wants full transparency uh about the process of appointing uh Peter
[2:08:55]Mandlesson as well as reviewing the way in which those appointments and particularly uh that the vetting happens. You know, you can't have it to both ways, Mark. You know, if that
[2:09:05]wasn't happening, you'd be saying to me, why is there not more transparency? The prime minister took swift action uh against Peter Mandlesson when the the extent of his relationship with Jeffrey
[2:09:17]Epstein became clear and he's now making sure that the information and messages around that are being released as
[2:09:27]effectively as possible whilst of course not uh prejud prejudicing any investigations that are underway at the moment. >> Right. I mean, but you can't have it both ways either because Peter because
[2:09:38]Kiama made the decision in the first place. >> And that's part of what the messages will identify. It's part of the reason why Karma having apologized for making that decision is now making sure that
[2:09:49]all of the information around it is available for people to see. >> Okay. And just finally, um, Milstride described this as a dark day for Downing Street. I mean, he's right, isn't it? It
[2:10:00]is another dark day for Downing Street. >> Well, yeah. in in some ways as as you've identified it's not what we want to talk about. More importantly, I don't think it's what those parents currently
[2:10:12]struggling to get the sort of support for their children with special educational needs that they want are also primarily interested in. You know what they want to hear from me is
[2:10:21]reassurance that we will put in place for their children the additional support at an earlier stage to enable them to make the most of their lives in
[2:10:32]schools and to reach their full potential. And that's what we've been talking about today. both the4 billion pounds worth of additional investment, the way in which that will enable more children to get the support they need in
[2:10:44]the schools which will enable them to learn alongside their uh friends and to achieve everything that they can out of our school system. That's what I've been focused on today.
[2:10:56]>> Right. Well, Baroness, I'm I'm glad you were able to uh talk about that at least at the end there because we do, as you know, and you'll be aware have this uh story to cover. But Baroness, thank you
[2:11:07]very much indeed for coming on. >> Well, that was immediate response there from the government. Well, in the last half hour, we have heard from the Tory leader, Kemmy Bnock, who's given her reaction.
[2:11:19]>> This is the defining moment of Karma's premiership. Watching the man who he appointed to the highest position in our diplomatic service uh getting arrested
[2:11:30]by police I think is an image that's going to stay with all of us for many many years to come and when people think about Ktorma and his premiership they will see the arrest of Peter Mandlesson
[2:11:41]as the defining moment. >> What does it say about the prime minister's leadership and how much longer can he go on for? Well, I think that the fact that I asked him if he had
[2:11:51]full confidence in Peter Mandlesson uh just a few months ago and he said yes despite all of these uh allegations being known only to see the man arrested shows that the prime minister has
[2:12:03]terrible judgment. Uh he's weak. He could have done more. He has not released the information around the files. Instead uh the he sacked the person who was supposed to be overseeing
[2:12:14]the release. I think that shows what kind of person uh the prime minister is. >> Will you be calling for him to stand down? >> Uh well, actually what I'm calling for first is for him to release the
[2:12:25]Mandlesson files. Uh we had a vote uh in parliament at the humble address. I led on this. I'm the person who's been holding him to account on this issue. He has promised to release the files and he
[2:12:36]hasn't done so. I think before he goes, he needs to be transparent and let us see what is uh you know what it is that has been hidden for so long. We need to know it is parliament's job to hold
[2:12:47]government to account. Uh he's been hoping that people would have been distracted by the arrest of Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. I have said I'm not going to be distracted. My job is to hold him to account. He has not released
[2:12:57]those files. Everybody knows why. He's instead stack sacked the person who was overseeing the release. He needs to release those files now. And if he can't do that, then he absolutely should go
[2:13:07]because it goes back to his judgment, the fact that this is a cover up. Let's see the files. Once we see those files, do you anticipate that it's not going to be much longer left for Karma?
[2:13:17]>> I think it's already uh time running out for Karma. He does not have authority in his party. Uh in parliament today, we saw Labour minister after Labor So, we
[2:13:27]saw Labour MP after Labor MP attack the government. They are not a happy bunch. He is now a hostage to his backbenches. And it's a matter of when he goes, not if he goes. >> Final question. This is a law point for
[2:13:39]the government. How bad really is it? This is an extremely low point for the government. I think that it could actually get worse because they do not have a plan for government. They do not
[2:13:50]know why they are there. They just want it to be uh in government and that's why they're flailing around. And in fact, it is the things that I've been doing that are getting them to shift the agenda. Whether it is on reversing the family
[2:14:01]farms tax, whether it is on uh you know what they did with Winter Fuel, the National Grooming Gang scandal, even today talking about scrapping the interest on student loan payments because it's not fair. The government
[2:14:13]has been nowhere to be seen. They've got nothing to say because they don't know what to do. there as you can see here with me in the studio to discuss this big story our
[2:14:24]panel ply comry westminster leader Liv Savile Roberts journalist and broadcaster Daisy Mccandrew along with our political commentator Adam Bolton thanks all uh for joining us this evening um Adam let's start with you I
[2:14:36]mean it's hard to overstate the significance of Peter Mandlesson the architect in New Labor and six months ago our man in Washington >> yeah I mean he he's had a very long
[2:14:48]history more than 40 years as a key figure in the Labour party and really uh the judgment of all uh the successive Labour leaders except Jeremy Corbyn perhaps is called into question now
[2:14:59]because uh he worked with Tony Blair. He was an architect of new labor. Uh it was then Gordon Brown actually who brought
[2:15:08]him back into government uh in the period which according to these Epstein files was when Peter Mandlesson was passing information to uh Jeffrey
[2:15:20]Epstein for which he's now being investigated for misconduct in public office and then of course uh not knowing what was in the Epstein files and as he
[2:15:31]says having been lied to by Peter Mandles about the extent of his involvement uh with Jeffrey Epstein. Uh the prime minister took the gamble, the present prime minister took the gamble
[2:15:42]of sending him to Washington. Uh there were good reasons for that. He'd been twice uh trade secretary in the cabinet. He'd been the European trade negotiator.
[2:15:52]So given that trade was so important, given also frankly that uh having uh some uh fairly sineuous political skills was also deemed to be important to deal with the Trump administration, you could
[2:16:04]see why he took that gamble and you can see that uh there was the vision within uh Downing Street at the time. Clearly Morgan Mweeny thought it was a good idea. Others didn't think it was a good
[2:16:15]idea. Karma took that gamble and now it's gone disastrously wrong. And Peter Mandlesson is ruined by what's been revealed in those files, whether or not
[2:16:26]he faces trial, conviction, and possible imprisonment. Although it seems likely, given the time of the arrest, at least going to spend some time in a police cell tonight. Um, he's ruined, but also
[2:16:38]the judgment of successive Labour leaders has been ruined, but I stress by what's been revealed, not what they knew at the time when they appointed Peter Mandlesson.
[2:16:49]And Daisy, you know, as Adam says, this is about the prime minister's judgment as well. >> Yes, of course it is. And I take Adam's point, but that, you know, reputations have been ruined by what's been
[2:17:01]revealed, but also it does speak of a lack of judgment because Peter Madison has been sacked, you know, more than once. And he has been proven to have not told the truth to people who asked him
[2:17:12]questions whether it was about mortgages, whether it was about, you know, his his friends in high places, his very very rich associations who he got freebie holidays from or whatever. So for somebody to come back and
[2:17:23]continually trust the word of somebody who's been sacked multiple times before, I think that on its own shows a lack of judgment because you are trying to
[2:17:33]convince the public that you are not like the 14 years of Tory chaos, that you are, you know, a whole new regime. So why take the risk of bringing somebody like Peter Madison back into
[2:17:44]the fold? I think that was very very ill- advised, stupid. I think it's important we should stress that he's obviously denied wrongdoing of course but and also the previous cases don't apply to this case but no no I take your
[2:17:56]point and Liz let's get your reaction as well. Well, of course, we had the first secretary today uh talking about bringing forward the papers for scrutiny in early March, next week possibly. And
[2:18:08]what I would be very concerned now if if the government use this as a reason not to bring them forward because frankly the purpose of scrutiny those papers is to find out why he was appointed as US
[2:18:19]ambassador is not the the same thing as as the charge uh the arrest that we now know of of misconduct in public office. So, it's perfectly possible for the government to bring forward these
[2:18:30]papers, have them at scrutiny with the intelligence and security committee, but I am worried now that the government will use this police action as a reason not to release the papers. It's
[2:18:39]perfectly It's perfectly possible to have decent scrutiny within the houses of parliament through the ISC and the government mustn't be allowed to wiggle off the hook with this because in all honesty, this is exactly what the
[2:18:50]question is. We need to know what the prime minister and his advisers knew when they appointed Peter Mandlesson, which is not the same thing as misconduct in public office. And that is exactly where we need to come to the
[2:19:02]judgment about the prime minister's judgment. Many of us have doubts about it. Those papers, I think, will prove it. And the government mustn't be allowed to wrigle off the hook and delay those. >> Can I come back to you very shortly, Daisy? I know you want to come in, but
[2:19:13]we've got um Graeme Weton on the line. This is our police commentator. Um, and I just want to bring him into the conversation as well. Graeme, thank you so much for joining us. Um, Graeme, what
[2:19:25]would Peter Mandlesson's afternoon have looked like? We know that um officers were in his home for I think about half an hour. >> Yeah, it looks like they went into his home address. Uh, he'd have been
[2:19:36]arrested there. Um, put into a police car by the detectives, driven to a police station. Ordinarily, they when you make an arrest, you then call up the control room and ask to be allocated a custody suite. police station you can
[2:19:48]take them to and they just literally work on like a a rotor basis, see where the spaces are, see where you are in London and what's the nearest one to you. It's possible though that detectives on this occasion uh may have
[2:19:58]already booked a custody suite for him. Uh they could even opened up one of the older police stations. All they need is is a custody sergeant to be waiting there for him. But more likely, he's gone to one of the normal custody
[2:20:09]suites. Uh they'd have called up, said they got one arresting. Um the space would be allocated at a police station somewhere in London, driven to the custody suite and then booked in as every other detainee is. If there's a
[2:20:20]queue, he would have joined the queue to be booked in. Um walked in front of the custody sergeant the facts of the arrest related to the custody sergeant who then authorizes authorizes detention. Tells the person being detained why they're
[2:20:32]being detained, the offense they're being detained for, and then they will read in their rights. The right to have a solicitor present, the right to have someone informed of their arrest. Now you can actually you can nominate a solicitor if you have one possibly like
[2:20:44]likely in this case or the duty solicitor is then called for you um then be searched but your personal property is bagged up and sealed. So wallets,
[2:20:53]phones, keys, belts, ties etc. shoelaces put into a property bag and sealed. Um normal practice now is for fingerprint photograph and DNA to be taken on arrival. Uh, and then if your legal
[2:21:05]representative isn't at the police station, by that stage, you are put into one of the cells to wait for your legal rep to turn up. What will then happen is the legal representative turns up. They are then given almost like pre-in
[2:21:16]disclosure by the interviewing officers, as in this is the offense we're interviewing. This is what we're going to these are the points we're going to ask questions about. So, not the full disclosure, but the points they're going to ask questions about during the
[2:21:27]interview. They then get a private consultation where they decide either to answer the questions, to make no comment or offer a prepared statement. They will then go into the interview room and the interview commences. As Adam mentioned
[2:21:39]though, it's very late in the day to start this process. This could take two or three hours to be ready for an interview. So, there's a possibility he could end up being detained overnight because we put people into a rest
[2:21:49]period. So, they are rested for a suspect interview. We don't tend to interview in the early hours of the morning because people can then say they were too tired to answer the questions etc. >> Okay. So there's a possibility he could
[2:22:00]be held overnight and remind us on the time frame frame for any charge should remind people he's been arrested not charged but it could take months even years for a charge potentially.
[2:22:10]>> Yeah possibly as as we've seen with other cases uh you have 24 hours an initial detention. So from the time of arrival at the police station 24 hours at the 24-hour stage um you then have to
[2:22:21]go to the superintendent at the police station for an extra then it's up to up to 12 hours but the your detention is reviewed after 6 hours initially by the inspector on duty who then reviews it
[2:22:32]again after another 9 hours. Then when you hit the 24-hour stage the superintendent will will be approached for a deta further detention up to 12 hours. At that stage, it has to go
[2:22:43]before a court for a warrant of further detention. But as we've seen in some other cases, there's a possibility you're either released on police foul or you're charged or you're uh released under investigation.
[2:22:55]>> Okay, Graeme, thanks so much for your analysis there. Let's bring our panel back in, shall we? Liz, Daisy, and Adam are still here. Uh Adam, I mean, it's
[2:23:06]they were extraordinary images, weren't they? >> Yeah, absolutely extraordinary. And I think everyone and I imagine including Peter Madison has expected him to be arrested following the treatment of of Prince Andrew because you know there
[2:23:18]there is or former Prince Andrew there is a direct parallel in terms of uh this issue of misconduct in in public life. I I have to say there is one question as
[2:23:27]to why uh they've been arrested in this way. It's not necessary to arrest people. you can uh ask them to come in for an interview or whatever and that
[2:23:38]has been the way in which the the police have gone about this and indeed there was a article in the times by Fraser Nelson making exactly this point and I do think there is a certain amount of
[2:23:49]theater both in the case of Peter Mandlesson and Andrew in the way they've been treated that such as the public and certainly uh the um sort of Westminster
[2:24:01]level of disapproval of their behavior that the police have taken the opportunity to almost do what they do routinely in America, which is the so-called perp walk of bringing people
[2:24:10]out to humiliation. And when this is all over, I fully understand the public outrage with what they've done, uh perhaps people will ask questions as to whether this has been handled. So on
[2:24:22]that I I get your point that perhaps there is a bit of the authorities wanting to be seen very publicly to be doing their job. But this particular story you know the whole Epstein story
[2:24:33]the fact that there's suspicions now that there is an establishment elite who are running everything you know in this murky world behind the scenes. I think that also lends itself to the
[2:24:44]authorities needing, not just wanting, but needing to be seen very publicly to be doing their job without favor and without, you know, looking like they're
[2:24:54]giving the establish a special. >> You know, most most people who are arrested um don't have to the knowledge of everyone cameras parked outside their house, do they?
[2:25:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. But nonetheless, I think what people will take away from this this week is these striking images of these men who have been very very
[2:25:15]powerful in UK public life, in international public life, seeing their status
[2:25:24]allegedly evaporating before their eyes >> and the fear and that loss of power. But at the same time, let's just take a step back. What they're being charged with is
[2:25:33]this misconduct in public office. Not a good thing, but it's not the same as trafficking. And you'll have heard over and over again that we should remember, as we should,
[2:25:44]>> arrested, we should say, >> the the the the char well arrest and yes, with his conduct in public office. But it is striking how there have been no arrests or charges in relation to
[2:25:55]trafficking. And that brings us back to what has happened to the the victims of Alied. And we know what has happened to the victims of Epstein >> and that really America and and no this
[2:26:06]has not happened in America at all. I'm for I'm sure that the Met Police and Times Valley police are very aware of that. >> But there is something here that fundamentally we know those who have
[2:26:16]suffered most deeply at the hands of Epstein are those children. No, you're you're entirely >> and there is no actual >> Well, you're entirely correct in that
[2:26:26]and the real question now is whether in the case of uh Mandy and Andy this whole thing could broaden out because uh
[2:26:37]obviously the police investigate sometimes they arrest people and and then they for example find something on the devices which they go through the
[2:26:46]computers or the phones and we have uh the former prime minister Gordon Brown actually sending evidence to the police uh relating to as far as we can
[2:26:58]understand the trafficking and the use of planes and suggesting that there may be some connection with uh certainly with former Prince Andrew but possibly
[2:27:09]with Manderson. So it could you know it could go wider is all I'm saying just to pick up that is the real jeopardy which um they're in. There are
[2:27:19]eight other police forces, English police forces, who are looking in specifically to the the trafficking allegations. And I think it those allegations are harder and more complicated even though we know public
[2:27:31]office misconduct in public office is an incredibly difficult accusation to prove and so on, but they are working off documents. So that enormous dump of documents and the trafficking
[2:27:43]investigations were led to believe that is all about the jet and whether when it landed at various English airports and we know that those investigations are ongoing. It's really interesting because
[2:27:53]that was raised when Epstein was arrested back what seven years ago looking at the security detail and the records of what they held was raised at the time and it has taken till now for
[2:28:05]us to realize that the RAF only keep records for 30 days and the police may not keep records for long enough either. There is a fundamental question. One of the big shifts that has happened is this
[2:28:15]sort of culture of difference and now we realize you those questions were raised back then nothing came of them but now something is beginning to come and it's revealing the fact but they're not
[2:28:25]necessarily going to reveal that much there if that's okay we will come back to you Adam I promise um but let's speak to our legal affairs commentator quickly Joshua Rosenberg
[2:28:34]>> um I just want to talk to you about um this offense of misconduct in public office it is quite unusual isn't it It is an unusual offense uh except of
[2:28:45]course this is the one that Andrew Mountbatton Windsor was arrested for and presumably questioned about last week. It's as I was saying to you and your
[2:28:55]colleagues last week. It's what lawyers call a common law offense. In other words, it's one laid down by the judges. The government's been under pressure for some successive governments to actually
[2:29:06]put it onto a statutory footing. And indeed, there is a bill before parliament that would do just that. uh but the bill hasn't yet been passed and indeed it wouldn't be retrospective
[2:29:15]anyway. So what the police have got to fall back on is this judge made offense which says that it's an offense for a
[2:29:25]public officer um and that presumably includes a trade envoy. certainly includes a government minister who is acting in that capacity, acting as such
[2:29:35]and willfully neglect to perform his duty or misconducts himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in the office holder and
[2:29:45]without, and this is important, without reasonable excuse or justification. Quite complicated, but you get the general idea. uh if somebody is misconducting themselves to such a
[2:29:56]degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in that person, well, that's a criminal offense. And because it's never been limited by Parliament, the maximum sentence is life
[2:30:07]imprisonment. >> These allegations relate back to 2008, we think his time in Gordon Brown's government. Does that make the job for police more difficult because it was
[2:30:18]such a long time ago? Well, I think that this sort of case depends on a paper trail. Uh although when we say paper, we mean electronic
[2:30:28]records. Um and the question really is whether the electronic records still exist, whether they've been preserved. Now, governments keep some papers um for
[2:30:39]many years and they're released uh after 30 years or whatever it may be, but other records, emails, and so on may well be destroyed. So what the police
[2:30:49]are going to have to do is not just look through Peter Mandlesson's computers to see if there are any emails from you know nearly 20 years ago and I don't know how many of us still have our
[2:31:00]emails going back that far systems change but also look at public records departmental records ministerial records and see what information they can put
[2:31:11]together and whether they can assemble a case >> and as you're saying it would need to be proved that he willfully misconducted himself. I mean the is the bar for that quite high? >> Yes. Although again it's going to be
[2:31:22]quite tricky because uh since it's something that is casebased uh any court trying anybody for this offense has to go back through past
[2:31:33]cases see what previous judges have said work out what this means in modern language and so on. Um it's all a bit uncertain. Although, as I think I said
[2:31:44]last week, we did raise this with the director of public prosecution, Steven Parkinson, at a briefing nearly two weeks ago when it looked as if people might be arrested for these charges. And
[2:31:56]he said that it was perfectly straightforward. It was after all laid down by uh a court just over 20 years ago in the terms that I've been describing. And he thought there would be no difficulty in giving the police
[2:32:07]the advice they need from the Crown Prosecution Service if they were to make arrests. and want to bring charges. >> Do you think the government would have known that Peter Manderson was going to
[2:32:18]be arrested? >> No, I don't think so. Because the whole point of perhaps turning up at an unexpected time of day, not first thing in the morning, but quite late in the
[2:32:28]afternoon is the element of surprise. Uh you want to see what somebody will say as soon as they arrive on the doorstep. You know, we saw that one of the detectives was wearing a bodywn camera
[2:32:39]just in case uh Peter Mandlesson actually said anything when they arrived. We don't know what that might have been or anything that he might have said. And also uh because you don't want
[2:32:49]them to uh destroy documents or whatever it may be. Uh so um the police would tell as few people as possible. We do
[2:32:58]know that uh when they were about to arrest Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, they did tell the home office uh an hour earlier. Uh but um that may be uh what
[2:33:10]that particular false temps valley did and when they were arresting a former member of the royal family, it might be that the Metropolitan Police in London would take a different approach uh when
[2:33:21]they're arresting a member of the House of Lords and a former minister. A point that our panel been making here is that police could have just questioned him. They didn't need to arrest him
[2:33:32]necessarily. Was there a degree of theater in this? >> I think that is a fair point. Um and don't forget that um the Metropolitan
[2:33:41]Police may be seen as playing catchup in a way to Temp's Valley police. You know, somebody might say to the Met, "Well, look, you know, that other force has
[2:33:51]arrested that other suspect, Andrew Mountbatton Windsor. How come you haven't arrested Peter Mandlesson?" I don't know whether that's how these things work. U but yes, I can see that
[2:34:02]this is very public. Uh the police will have known perfectly well that there were cameras outside Peter Manderson's home, presumably have been for several days, and that this would all be very
[2:34:12]visible on camera and and on Sky News and other news networks. So there may be some of that. There is um a fact. It is a fact that when you arrest somebody,
[2:34:22]you're able not just to search them as as your uh crime commentator was explaining, but you can also search uh where they live. Uh but we're told by the Metropolitan Police that they
[2:34:34]obtained search warrants apparently for Peter Mandlesson's homes in London and in Wiltshire. Uh so again, it might not have been necessary. On the other hand, if you're going to arrest, if you're
[2:34:45]going to search somebody's home, you certainly don't want that person in their home. So, it would be uh it would certainly facilitate the search of his home in London if he wasn't there. >> Okay, Joshua Rosenberg, thank you for
[2:34:56]joining us on this significant day. Well, the pictures you can see now are outside Peter Mandlesson's home where he was arrested in North London earlier.
[2:35:08]Liz, Daisy, and Adam are still here. And as you can see, they've been joined by our chief political correspondent, John Craig. Um, John, what was your reaction to this news today?
[2:35:18]>> Well, Joshua touched on it really, just how public the whole thing was. Um, I mean, the timings are the police, those officers arrived at about uh about quarter 4 in the afternoon. So, they
[2:35:30]would have been seen arriving uh by by all the journalists and the photographers and camera crews that were there. And then it was about half an hour later about quarter to 5 when the p
[2:35:41]these pictures uh were were shot uh Peter Mandlesson faced like thunder as some have said today um and being led away by the two officers and then the confirmation that he'd actually been
[2:35:53]arrested came just after 5:00 about quarter of an hour or so after they this happened. Um there are those other politicians have uh said that did did
[2:36:04]they really need to arrest him? Uh David Blunkett, a former home secretary, has said this evening, um they could have just been interviewed at home. They uh a
[2:36:13]bit of a show, he said. Um I mean, I remember, you'll remember this, when the cash for honors and Tony Blair was ftting, wasn't he, about being uh questioned by the police. And I think I
[2:36:24]can't remember, he wasn't interviewed under caution, was he? That was 2007, I think it was. But I mean we >> well people I mean in the past people have been asked to come go to a police station and been arrested and then been
[2:36:36]arrested at a police station. It's possible to do it. And just on the the point Joshua Rosenberg was making Peter Mansson's homes as indeed uh the homes
[2:36:46]of uh former Prince Andrew. Both of them have already been searched. I mean Peter Mansison's were searched last weekend. We saw the police going in. We saw the police taking material away. Peter
[2:36:56]Madison had his devices confiscated and subsequently returned to him. So the argument that they were going to arrest him and then search his home, it doesn't apply in this case. Well, they it's
[2:37:07]already been done. >> They That's right. They said that in their statement. Um the arrest follows search warrants at the two addresses. Now, we know those searches began on the 6th of February, over just over two
[2:37:18]weeks ago, and we saw um a few days later boxes being taken away from I think it was the house in Wiltshire, possibly the one in near Regent's Park
[2:37:28]as well. Um but it it the middle of the afternoon, broad daylight, and Andrew, of course, his arrest was first thing in the morning, and we didn't know about it, I don't think, until after it had happened, did we? But I mean, arrested
[2:37:40]are live on t not quite live on TV, but almost. And also on the point of lawyers, um we know that Pete Manson has been visited by lawyers which who've
[2:37:49]been identified in the media already. So there wouldn't have been a question of calling a duty solicitor. >> Daisy, I mean it's extraordinary to think last week we saw the king's
[2:38:00]brother being arrested. Now we are seeing this towering figure in the Labour party being arrested. It's it's worth taking stock. >> No, it is. And actually on this issue of whether the home office knew and obviously we did find out last week
[2:38:11]after Andrew's arrest that Iette Cooper did know just just before and Joshua was saying maybe >> mood sorry may maybe you know maybe it would have been the same in this case or
[2:38:22]maybe it wouldn't because this is a Labour party figure. One of the things I found fascinating last week is that the arresting officers who drove from Tempame's Valley to Norfolk, which is a three-hour journey, they didn't know who they were going to arrest when they were
[2:38:33]dispatched because there was so much secrecy around Andrew's arrest. So, again, you wonder, did these Metropolitan Police arresting officers, did they know who they were going to arrest on the way? >> You telling me that police are being
[2:38:44]told, "Right, you're going to Norolk." Uh, yeah, I think I know who we're going to go and see. But it wasn't it wasn't put on any official channels and it wasn't because they were so concerned that it would leak which I mean that tells you something about
[2:38:54]>> it did seem the leakiness a total surprise. >> Liz, what are your thoughts >> for Peter Mandlesson? >> Yeah, >> I mean he was if the the houses were
[2:39:06]searched previously, we know what has been released so far on the Epstein files. I I would venture to say purely in lay person's terms that I would imagine that there is a lot that has
[2:39:17]been released in the Epstein files which is what has been looked at has been considered is this sufficient evidence to reach a certain threshold and we're looking for more evidence on top of that. We shall wait and see what
[2:39:27]happens. At the same time of course this this is a political scandal. This is a massive political scandal for the government and they have a duty now to
[2:39:38]behave. If they were talking about the end of Tory chaos in 2024, it's their duty now to make sure that they act appropriately and with honor. >> I think it has been confirmed by the
[2:39:50]chairman of the intelligence and security committee that they will be releasing documents. So your fear perhaps that things are going to be with withheld doesn't appear to be standing. Although where I can see a complication,
[2:40:02]again I'm not a lawyer, is were there to actually be charges laid against Lord Mandlesson. We know that the police early on did say they didn't want
[2:40:13]anything to be revealed that could damage their prosecution, but of course, as you pointed out, the so-called Mandlesson files don't relate to these crimes. They relate to the judgment of
[2:40:24]the government >> appointment. How difficult are the next few days going to be for the prime minister? >> Well, you know, lost in all this is the fact that the prime minister's announced
[2:40:34]another ethics investigation into another minister this evening, uh Josh Simons, uh who was um uh as has been reported in the Sunday Times as elsewhere, uh when he was at Labour
[2:40:46]together, uh put effectively a a private firm into investigating the background of journalists. There have been calls for Josh Simons to be sacked as a minister. Of course, he didn't do that
[2:40:58]when he was a minister. So all of this is just contributing and even you know even this bi-election which is taking place the cause of the bi-election was
[2:41:08]to do with with uh conduct of of of MPs. So all of this is damaging the reputation of politics and politicians
[2:41:17]in general. And I have to say obvious thing for Kimmy Bade not to do and she's been quite effective in stirring this up. But you know when she was describing
[2:41:28]uh the conduct of this government in terms of its lack of direction and just wanting to be in you know one did think back not very far to the previous uh you know Boris Johnson Liz Truss era and and
[2:41:39]my feeling is I don't think this is necessarily going to be bad just for the Labor party. I think it will be bad for what people used to call the natural
[2:41:50]parties of government, which is the Conservative and the Labor Party. >> And this evening, we were meant to be talking about special educational needs reform, this huge package of reforms, and suddenly we've had to change entire program. >> The Conservatives, of course, are going
[2:42:01]for Star, both Kemmy Bino and your interview with Sel Stride as well. It's all about the prime minister's judgment. And of course we keep I mean the the
[2:42:11]very very moment that arrest was taking place and the police were in at Peter Mandlesson's house Darren Jones was on his feet in the House of Commons talking about the release of what he called the
[2:42:20]first tranch of uh documents next as early as next week he said early March and um there were plenty of MPs in the house mostly Labour MPs you mentioned
[2:42:31]the Josh Simon story there was fury on the Labour benches about the Josh Simon saga as well and there were MPs saying during the Mandlesson exchanges.
[2:42:42]Um, you know, most people would have said you wouldn't touch Peter Mandlesson with a barge pole, Andy McDonald, a leftwing Labor MP said. And of course, I keep my mind keeps going back to an interview that Peter Kyle gave on Sky
[2:42:53]News to Trevor Phillips. I think it was round about September when he said that appointing Peter Mandlesson was a risk worth taking. My goodness, what a risk it turned out to be.
[2:43:04]>> Come back to Hol. We will come back to you, our panel. But joining me now is the political historian Anthony Seldon. Thank you very much for joining us. Um I just want to give a bit of a sense of
[2:43:15]the significance of Peter Mandlesson in the Labor Party. Can you do that for us? >> Yeah. So this is an enormous scandal. It's uh much bigger than Profumo which
[2:43:25]was a comparatively contained affair. He was uh close to three prime ministers over 30 years. He was the creator
[2:43:35]primarily the creator of new labor which saw labor in power for 13 years and he never went away and uh he was a giant.
[2:43:46]He was the the grandson of uh someone Herbert Morrison who helped create Labor as a party of government and uh he
[2:43:56]always tried to honor he said the legacy and the memory of his grandfather and yet now he seems to be playing a significant part not in destroying the Labour party obviously it's going to
[2:44:08]carry on but very significantly damaging it. He called himself the third man, didn't he, in his um autobiography. He really was right at the levers of power.
[2:44:20]He wasn't prime minister, but he was, as he called it, the third man. >> Well, yeah. And of course that's an unfortunate reference if one thinks about the film but uh he created the
[2:44:31]sense of new labor and I think the damage that he did and there's a straight line through to Morgan Mweeny is a belief that you know it's really
[2:44:41]just a game uh government and what you've got to do is to just outmaneuver and swizzle the opposition and uh come up with focus groups and a a little deaf
[2:44:52]move here and then uh you're going to be finding out from polling and you a little bit over there. No, no, no. Uh governments throughout British history, the good
[2:45:03]governments have been uh had a story to tell. That's an overworked phrase, but they did have a story to tell and they were concerned with governing and they
[2:45:11]are reelected. Uh not because they have jked around and listened to focus groups and listened to polling, but because they're conviction governments and they
[2:45:22]do things. there's an there's an arc to the premiership. They are uh people who know how to govern and that's very different from uh the game of political
[2:45:34]advisers uh and um and politicking and he really brought that into the labor bloodstream and that then became part of the general
[2:45:45]story. he more than anybody. It was London Weekend television uh much more than Oxford where he'd been a student that uh educated him in in the way that
[2:45:56]politics is a game. It's a game of images and impressions. It's about um uh what you can convince people of. It's about instant rebuttal
[2:46:06]um rather than much more serious thing which uh um Harold uh um Wilson James Callahan Clement Atley who his
[2:46:17]grandfather worked for uh the great Labor prime ministers knew in their blood it it's a very serious game of governing >> Anthony um Adam Bolton would like to ask you a question so I'll let him do that.
[2:46:29]Well, with all due respect, I just want to say um you may be right uh and you are right about Peter Manson's concern about image, but uh the account you've given of his significance in the Labor
[2:46:40]Party uh is um you know, you said yourself politics is about governing. It's about getting elected. Well, the Blair government, of which Peter Madison was an architect, was elected three
[2:46:51]times. It wasn't a totally content-free electorate, nor was the philosophy of New Labor and what New Labor tried to do simply about image and presentation. And
[2:47:01]if I may say so, I think that's a rather partisan presentation of the significance of Peter Manderson, who I fully agree has disgraced the party and has destroyed so much of what he
[2:47:12]achieved. But to just dismiss it as about presentation and spin, I don't think is justified.
[2:47:19]>> Okay. So we might disagree on that. Um Adam, uh I think >> talking about getting elected for example, the Blair government won three elections. Are you saying that was
[2:47:31]entirely hollow? >> No. But I think that there'd have been a better government. I think Blair would have been a better prime minister if it had been more substantial and if there
[2:47:42]had been more thought put in before, just like Kier Stmer, more thought put in. And you may well disagree. I think you do. Uh more thought put into what
[2:47:52]we're going to do with more thought, wasn't it? There was a book called The Project Peter co-authored. I mean, this this is, you know, the man has fallen. He's disgraced himself. He's damaged his
[2:48:03]party. But to just dismiss three three governments in succession is nonsense. Frankly, >> I But I think you're doing that. I think you're the one getting emotional here.
[2:48:13]I'm saying that I think that he would have served the prime ministers better if more thought had been once Tony Blair got into Paris. Tony Blair himself admits when his political capital was at
[2:48:24]its high point, uh he didn't use his his opportunity to govern uh and to make the changes that Britain so desperately
[2:48:34]needed. uh so I think it's a question of uh clearly Mandlesson was very significant and uh he his style of uh
[2:48:44]politics was important and other parties have followed it in this country and abroad but I think that essentially politics once you're in power that
[2:48:54]governing is different uh to campaigning and I don't think that that was a switch that he u properly uh advocated and I
[2:49:05]think that was the shame of that was the pity for new labor that the legacy after 13 years wasn't more substantial and it
[2:49:16]wasn't heavily enough put towards solid governing. I think the similar story um about this current government with Kama that had such an extraordinary
[2:49:26]opportunity with that majority in July 2024 to actually get on and govern and make the changes that the country was longing to see and to get ahead of
[2:49:37]issues like AI and other uh huge concerns like an aging population and uh um uh the the crumbling social services
[2:49:48]that that uh we wanted to see >> and telling story. >> We're gonna have to leave it there. Thank you for answering our questions
[2:49:55]and for answering Adam Bolton's as well. >> Well, you well, you are looking right now at live pictures of Peter
[2:50:06]Mandlesson's home where he was arrested earlier. And as we've been saying throughout our coverage this evening, um we should say that Lord Mandlesson has repeatedly denied all wrongdoing and he's previously apologized for
[2:50:16]maintaining his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, which he admitted went on for too long. Um let's get some final thoughts, shall we, from our panel, John? What are your final thoughts this
[2:50:27]evening? Well, I suppose we now need to obviously we wait and see what happens to Lord Mandlesson and I suppose Andrew Mountbat and Windsor as well, but I'm
[2:50:36]suddenly starting to get a bit oo these documents that are coming in early March and wondering what's going to be in those week. Yeah, potentially. Yes, I I think that's possibly the next
[2:50:47]embarrassment for Saki. And I know that you you say the Tories of course had a bad record as well on sleas, but the fact is that the opposition are having
[2:50:57]making hay uh with this particular scandal. Kemmy Badenox or Ed Davyy, they all will the Steven Flynn of the SNP, Clyde Cumry. Okay, we don't have long
[2:51:07]left for your final thought. >> Well, I think of course uh they will stir it up. All I was talking about was the impact of people out there, the extent to which they're going to pay attention to the details of this and
[2:51:19]whether they're just going to think that there's a political class that has behaved disgracefully. And the other point I would make at this stage is whether or not Peter Mandlesson or
[2:51:30]Prince Andrew end up serving time, they are already ruined and utterly disgraced and they have bought down many people around them as well. that they they have
[2:51:41]whether or not they're rotten apples or whether or not they're indicative of of the wider society. But you know, both of those individuals were meant to be serving the public with serving duty and the suspicion and the whiff is that they
[2:51:52]were simply feathering their own nest and buddying up to billionaires in order, you know, to to get gains for themselves and totally disregarding the innocent victims of those people. So,
[2:52:02]this is done huge damage to politics and the royal family and we're at the beginning, not the end. Liz, very briefly, your point. >> It means we can question everything, doesn't it? We were exposed to accept the royal family and be utterly
[2:52:14]different to them. And we've now seen so much revealed about the queen, how it appears that she protected possibly her favorite son, and now her favorite son
[2:52:24]has fallen utterly from grace. Perhaps we're growing up. >> And as uh the shadow chancellor put it, a dark day for the Labor Party. Do you
[2:52:34]think the prime minister is going to find the next couple of days very very difficult? >> Well, I mean, I don't think anybody would be betting on his longevity. >> Okay, thank you so much to our panel,
[2:52:45]Liz Daisy, Adam Bolton, our political commentator, and John Craig, our chief political correspondent. Well, that is it from us on a very significant day
[2:52:56]here in Westminster. Peter Mandlesson, architect right at the top of New Labor. 6 months ago, our man in Washington has
[2:53:07]been arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office. I will see you tomorrow at 7:00. Up next, it is UK tonight with Sarah Jamie. Thank you so
[2:53:17]much for watching this evening, a significant evening in Westminster. We will see you tomorrow night.