[0:00]Today's date is Thursday, July 24th.
[0:07]This will be the recording of a proffer agreement of Delaine Maxwell from the Deputy Attorney
[0:16]General, DOJ, and the time is currently 9 16.
[0:24]Maxwell and counsel are arriving to the U.S. Attorney's Office, and we will commence
[0:28]the proffer shortly.
[0:30]I'm going to ask him to put the name on the record, of course.
[0:38]Good morning.
[0:39]My name is Assistant Special Agent in Charge Spencer Horne of FBI New York.
[0:44]Today we're doing a proffer of Ms. Maxwell.
[0:47]The date is July 24th, and the time is 10 to 12 a.m.
[0:57]This interview is being recorded.
[1:02]My name is Todd Blanch.
[1:03]I'm the Deputy Attorney General, and before we start formally asking questions of Ms.
[1:10]Maxwell, I'm going to put on the record everybody that's in this room in addition
[1:15]to me.
[1:16]I'm starting with you, Diego.
[1:19]Diego Pastana, Associate Deputy Attorney General.
[1:22]And then you heard from Special Agent in Charge Horne, Mark Beard from the United
[1:28]States Marshal Services here as well, and then David?
[1:32]Yes, this is David Oscar-Marcus, and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
[1:39]My name is Thea Sapien, and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
[1:43]My name is Melissa Madrigal, and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
[1:48]Go ahead.
[1:49]And I'm Ghislaine Maxwell.
[1:52]Good morning.
[1:53]Ms. Maxwell, how are you?
[1:54]Good morning.
[1:55]Mr. Blanch.
[1:56]Good.
[1:57]Okay, so before we started recording, we met for a few minutes.
[2:01]I introduced myself, and we chatted, and now I told you that we were going on the record.
[2:06]And before we start asking questions, I know that you've been given by your lawyer a
[2:13]copy of what's called a proffer agreement, and I just want to spend two minutes making
[2:19]sure that you understand what governs our conversation today.
[2:25]The most important part of this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement,
[2:29]meaning that by you meeting with us today, we're really just meeting.
[2:33]I'm not promising to do anything.
[2:36]I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or any of the judges that have been assigned
[2:40]to your case to do anything.
[2:43]We're just talking, and so that's the most important part of this agreement.
[2:49]However, almost as important is the fact that what this agreement does for you
[2:54]is it gives you protection.
[2:56]So what it means is that the government cannot use what you say today against you,
[3:02]with some exceptions, which we'll talk about in a minute.
[3:05]But whatever you talk about today, you have what's called immunity.
[3:09]So that means that the words that you say today, we cannot use against you in
[3:13]a case in chief if we were ever to bring one.
[3:16]Okay?
[3:17]Thank you.
[3:18]There's exceptions to that.
[3:20]The most meaningful one of which is that if you say something today that's not true,
[3:24]we can bring a prosecution against you for what's called false statements.
[3:29]So I'm a federal officer.
[3:32]I have several officers here.
[3:34]The FBI is here.
[3:36]And if you lie to someone that's like me or like Special Agent Horn, it's a crime.
[3:42]So you have to be truthful.
[3:44]The other exception to this that doesn't necessarily apply directly to you, but
[3:49]if there ever was a retrial in your case or if there ever was a criminal case,
[3:54]a future criminal case against you, and your lawyer or you said something different
[4:02]or took a position that's different than what you say today,
[4:06]we can then cross examine you or witness based upon what you say today.
[4:12]So it's a little bit nuanced, meaning I can't use what you say against you
[4:16]in our case in chief.
[4:18]However, if you were to testify or if your lawyer called a witness to testify
[4:23]and they said something that is totally different than what you say today,
[4:27]we could then cross examine you or the witness and say,
[4:30]hey, do you remember when we met with Ms. Maxwell back in July of 2025?
[4:36]She told us and then say what she said.
[4:38]Okay?
[4:39]I understand.
[4:40]Okay.
[4:42]Other than that, I know you didn't have a lot of time this morning
[4:45]to meet with Mr. Marcus, but did you have a chance to go over this briefly with him?
[4:51]I did.
[4:52]Okay.
[4:53]All right.
[4:53]So I've already signed it, as has Special Agent Horne,
[4:57]and Mr. Marcus signed it as well.
[4:59]So you got a pen.
[5:00]Please sign it right where it says clients.
[5:02]Yep.
[5:04]And I will provide a copy of this to your lawyer so you guys have it.
[5:08]Okay.
[5:10]Thank you.
[5:12]So Ms. Maxwell, about a week and a half ago or two weeks ago,
[5:19]can you see the light blinking on that?
[5:22]On the Sony.
[5:28]Yeah, there you see.
[5:29]Okay.
[5:29]We're just confirming that it works and it does.
[5:32]Ms. Maxwell, I guess about a week and a half or two weeks ago,
[5:35]Mr. Marcus reached out to me and said that you wanted to speak with somebody
[5:42]from the government about not only your case,
[5:45]but about everything that's been in the media
[5:49]and that's been publicized about Mr. Epstein in your case.
[5:53]That is true.
[5:54]And I did speak to him and I did ask him if he did tell him
[6:00]that I would very keen to talk to anyone because no one from the government
[6:06]at any time ever can be since the inception of the case.
[6:11]So dating back to the early two counsels has ever spoken to me
[6:17]and indeed I believe ever reached out to me at any time to even speak to me.
[6:22]And that includes up to when I was indicted and prosecuted.
[6:29]I believe that, or I understand I should say rather,
[6:34]that my attorneys at the time did tell the government
[6:39]that I wanted to speak to them because I was very keen to meet with anyone
[6:46]so that I could tell or have them ask me any question.
[6:50]I've never had any problem just to speak to anybody and I offered myself
[6:56]and I kept asking if they would make a case that I could speak to them
[7:01]for whatever reason that was not happening.
[7:05]OK.
[7:07]I have questions that I want to ask you, but I'm not.
[7:12]If there's a path that questions should be asked, I invite you to volunteer.
[7:17]Same thing goes to your lawyers.
[7:20]Just to start a little bit very briefly,
[7:23]can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein?
[7:30]I know that goes back a while and just very generally talk
[7:33]about your relationship with Mr. Epstein from the time you met him
[7:37]all the way up until his death.
[7:42]I met Mr. Epstein in 1991.
[7:54]I'd never heard of him or met him before and no one in my family had ever either.
[8:02]My father never knew him and I'll explain why that is the case.
[8:06]Where did you meet him?
[8:09]I had a girlfriend who...
[8:14]I'd moved to America briefly, well, I'd moved to America in 1990.
[8:24]OK.
[8:25]Well, moved is a good word.
[8:27]I'd come to visit America in 1990.
[8:29]I had been running my own company up until that time,
[8:34]which was a company called Maxwell's Corporate Gifts.
[8:38]And I had also been working for my father at the time.
[8:43]I've had multiple jobs with him.
[8:45]I was in 1990, I was working with a new company of his,
[8:54]a new newspaper that he was launching called The European.
[8:58]And I was in charge of launching a magazine to go with The European.
[9:08]And I was traveling at that time from England to America because
[9:16]my father was looking to...
[9:19]Well, he'd also bought Macmillan the publishing house
[9:25]and he had purchased the New York Daily News.
[9:28]And it's true to say that my father always wanted me to come back full-time
[9:36]but that's a much longer story.
[9:38]I don't think we need to go into it this time.
[9:42]But I was always working with him.
[9:44]There was no escaping, as it were, to work for him.
[9:48]So in 1990, I had come over to New York
[9:55]to help look at some of that.
[9:57]She was having some advertising issues with the New York Daily News
[10:01]and in fact, I met, I may have met Donald Trump at that time
[10:07]because my father was friendly with him and liked him very much.
[10:12]And I think it should be said that he also very much liked Ivana
[10:18]because she was also from Czechoslovakia where my dad was from.
[10:22]So I don't remember if I did meet him or not.
[10:26]I've been 1990 with my dad
[10:27]but I knew that that's how I knew about Mr. Trump.
[10:31]And this was before you met Mr. Epstein?
[10:35]Yes. So I was already going backwards and forwards in America
[10:39]and then in April of 1991, I came to New York.
[10:51]I can't remember for what reason, what business reason
[10:53]but there was a business reason, something to do with my dad at that time.
[10:56]And a girlfriend of mine, an American, told me
[11:02]I've broken up with my long, I've been engaged,
[11:08]getting the very long-term boyfriend and we've broken up.
[11:11]So I said to my girlfriend, I've got a guy for you to meet.
[11:15]And I was like, who is it?
[11:16]And she goes, he's been dating my sister and you're loving,
[11:20]he's looking for a wife.
[11:22]I'm edging towards 30.
[11:24]I don't need to tell you guys that's an important moment for a girl
[11:27]just to think about important things.
[11:29]And I sure won't be happy to meet him.
[11:32]And so sometime in 1991, we're in 1991,
[11:38]I met him at his offices then on Madison Avenue.
[11:46]And I think the most memorable thing I can think about that
[11:50]is he was wearing a tie which he didn't often give me.
[11:52]It had a giant to my feet ketchup stain on it.
[11:56]So I was like, wow, okay.
[11:59]And that was how we met.
[12:01]Was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally
[12:06]or were you there for work-related reasons?
[12:10]No, I knew nothing about him.
[12:13]He just invited me to come and have tea.
[12:16]And I was like, tea, that's English, okay.
[12:19]But what was unusual was in his offices.
[12:20]So I went to his offices and we met.
[12:23]And I found him very engaging and that was that.
[12:29]So, okay, so that's how you meet him.
[12:30]So and again, I don't want to spend a lot of time,
[12:34]you know, on this particular issue,
[12:38]but what happened with your relationship over the years
[12:42]from the time you meet him in 1991
[12:45]up until the time he passed away?
[12:47]Just give the highlights.
[12:49]So I was looking for real estate for my dad to buy some
[12:56]and Epstein told me that he was also looking to move
[12:59]from his apartment and would I help him.
[13:02]And I'm actually sure I'm looking already
[13:04]so I could look for him.
[13:05]So that's how it started.
[13:07]And then in 1991, my father passed away
[13:10]and I returned to New York after that originally
[13:13]to come back and help with the family businesses
[13:16]which was a minimum.
[13:20]And then the debacle of my father's passing
[13:25]hit the family and we lost all our businesses
[13:31]and my family thought that it would be best
[13:34]if I stayed in America
[13:36]because of the intensity of the press
[13:40]and the drama surrounding my father's death in England.
[13:43]So I stayed and Epstein said
[13:47]you can keep helping me, you can help me find a house
[13:51]and you can decorate the house
[13:52]and it gave me something to do.
[13:56]Were you in a romantic relationship
[13:58]with him at this point or just friends?
[14:00]Just friends.
[14:01]And with respect to your father,
[14:05]there have been multiple questions
[14:09]about whether he worked for any intelligence agency.
[14:13]Do you have any knowledge about that?
[14:17]I think certainly my father had a background
[14:20]in intelligence because he was
[14:25]I believe he did in the second world war.
[14:27]He was a British intelligence officer.
[14:31]I think that my sort of belief
[14:33]is that once you've been an intelligence officer
[14:36]you're kind of always,
[14:37]it doesn't mean that you're formally employed.
[14:39]So I don't think my dad in any formal sense
[14:42]was, you know, employed by any agency
[14:47]but when you are a very significant businessman
[14:54]and politician as my father was
[14:57]you meet with people all the time
[15:00]and you, I guess, trade business or ideas.
[15:05]I think that before under that definition
[15:08]that's how I would think it.
[15:09]Now he certainly, I have no formal knowledge
[15:13]of anything specifically that he did in that thing
[15:16]but if you're asking me if I feel
[15:18]that he did help people,
[15:20]the answer would be yes, I did.
[15:22]Did your father and Mr Epstein
[15:24]have a business relationship over the years?
[15:26]I know we're maybe jumping around a little bit.
[15:28]They never met.
[15:30]As far as you know, they never even met.
[15:32]No, I know they never met.
[15:35]How do you know they never met?
[15:36]Thank you.
[15:37]Just categorically know they never met.
[15:38]Well, because after in 1991 before my father died
[15:45]he asked me if I'd met anybody interesting
[15:48]or whatever, you know,
[15:49]because I was still trying not to be sucked back
[15:53]into the family business
[15:55]and I told him that I had met Mr Epstein
[15:57]and the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr Epstein
[15:59]because I believed at that time
[16:01]that Epstein worked for Best Turns
[16:04]and Best Turns was one of our banks
[16:06]and I knew that my father was friendly
[16:09]with both Jimmy Kane and with Ace Greenberg.
[16:13]So my dad was actually in New York, I think.
[16:18]I don't think I had this conversation on the phone
[16:20]that I was talking 30 years ago, so I'm not sure.
[16:23]But maybe I told him this verbatim because I haven't.
[16:29]I know that what my dad did,
[16:31]whether I saw it or whether he did it
[16:34]and told me later, that I don't remember.
[16:37]He called both Jimmy Kane and Ace Greenberg
[16:41]to ask if what sort of guy he was
[16:44]and was he even allowed to...
[16:49]So they never met.
[16:53]He didn't even know who he was.
[16:56]They knew some of the same people it sounds like
[16:58]or certainly the Bear Stearns connection
[17:00]was something that you knew that they had.
[17:03]No, well, he never had a connection with Epstein.
[17:05]He had a connection with the bank.
[17:06]I mean, Epstein, I'd never heard of him
[17:09]or knew of him before.
[17:10]And certainly if my dad had known him, right,
[17:13]when I said this was who he was,
[17:14]he didn't know who he was.
[17:16]So he rang Ace and he rang Jimmy
[17:19]to ask if it was okay that I even knew him.
[17:22]And I just want to explain briefly
[17:25]why my father would even do such a thing.
[17:42]I've had some interesting things
[17:47]that have happened in my life.
[17:49]And one of them was to be found
[17:53]on an IRA kidnap and murder list.
[17:58]And so after that happened,
[18:02]well, there were other related...
[18:05]I'm not going to bore you
[18:06]with all the horrible things in that vein,
[18:09]but if you want the details, of course, I can.
[18:13]But after that happened,
[18:17]my father wanted to put a lot of protection on this thing.
[18:22]And I declined on the grounds
[18:24]that that would be a very life-restricting event.
[18:30]You're all in law enforcement.
[18:31]I know you understand this.
[18:33]And so he had told me that,
[18:39]I would be taking my life in my own hands or whatever.
[18:43]And so I think after that event
[18:45]and several others where I had to do crazy things
[18:48]that one has, he was always quite protective of me.
[18:51]And so if I met somebody,
[18:53]he would try and verify
[18:55]that they weren't going to do anything hideous.
[18:59]And so in case you thought it was weird
[19:02]that he would call Jimmy an ace,
[19:07]you may think it is,
[19:08]but from my perspective,
[19:10]he was just because he was concerned
[19:12]I was in America alone
[19:15]and he had an opportunity to verify who this person was.
[19:18]And so I don't know if I was in the room with him.
[19:20]I don't recall.
[19:21]But I know that at some point,
[19:23]my father told me, he's fine.
[19:24]You can see it.
[19:25]Yeah.
[19:26]He's safe.
[19:26]Okay.
[19:27]Well, okay.
[19:29]So we might come back
[19:31]and touch a little bit more on that at some point,
[19:34]but I went down a rabbit hole for a minute.
[19:36]That's all right.
[19:37]I just wanted to...
[19:37]No, that's helpful.
[19:38]Thank you.
[19:39]So, okay.
[19:39]So you're now in the 90s
[19:43]and you're friends with Ms. Repstein,
[19:46]that you decorate in the house or the apartment.
[19:49]What happened with your relationship?
[19:51]Again, I know we're talking about
[19:53]a 35-year time period or whatever,
[19:55]but to the extent you can kind of
[19:57]at a very high level talk about it.
[19:59]I think just full disclosure is the best way to go
[20:02]at this point.
[20:03]So in 1992, I slept with him one time
[20:09]and I was like,
[20:10]oh, that's it.
[20:11]We're going to be dating
[20:12]because that's how I thought.
[20:16]And I kind of thought of myself in that moment
[20:19]because if you slept with someone
[20:21]that you were then dating them,
[20:26]that's the world I came from.
[20:28]But that really worked.
[20:29]Well, that's how it worked.
[20:31]But we didn't sleep together again for...
[20:34]I don't know,
[20:35]really a significant period of time.
[20:37]Like years or...?
[20:43]I don't know if it was a year.
[20:46]That feels long,
[20:47]but maybe nine months.
[20:49]I mean, a long time.
[20:51]I just want to go back.
[20:52]So I had found a house for him to rent in New York
[20:59]because he had asked me.
[21:00]I'd been looking for my father
[21:01]and I found one,
[21:03]which was a former Iranian embassy.
[21:06]I think it was.
[21:06]I think it belonged to the Iranians
[21:08]or the Iraqis.
[21:12]And I didn't know that he had any money,
[21:15]but even it was like...
[21:17]I want to say it was $20,000 a month,
[21:19]which to me seemed like culture.
[21:22]And I said to myself,
[21:22]I found this house,
[21:23]but I don't think you can afford it.
[21:29]And that house came with...
[21:31]It was a State Department house
[21:32]because I think it was under
[21:33]the sector station or whatever it was.
[21:37]I put it back together,
[21:38]but it was at the rules.
[21:38]You couldn't pay if you had to go back.
[21:40]And he gave it back to the country then.
[21:43]So he had this house
[21:47]and I had moved into a 10-foot by 10-foot apartment
[21:53]because all of our stuff had been
[21:56]either lost or frozen or whatever.
[22:00]So he became the most mellow of my life, really,
[22:04]because I was just like...
[22:05]Everything felt very similar to this man,
[22:09]if that makes any sense.
[22:10]Anyway, so...
[22:12]But I had no key to his house.
[22:14]I had no free access to his house.
[22:17]And then the entire time that he lived there,
[22:19]which was, I believe,
[22:20]until the beginning of 1996,
[22:24]I never slept a single night in that house ever.
[22:28]Not that.
[22:31]So you said a minute ago
[22:33]that you had slept with him on one occasion
[22:37]and at the time you remember thinking
[22:40]that this meant you were in a relationship,
[22:41]but then you really were not
[22:44]in that type of relationship.
[22:45]Well, I thought...
[22:45]Did that change between 1991 and 1992
[22:49]or whatever and years forward?
[22:53]So I did travel with him a lot.
[22:56]So I would go to his house and on the beach,
[22:59]he only had that house actually open.
[23:02]No, that's not true.
[23:03]He had the house in Palm Beach
[23:04]and he had a house in Ohio.
[23:07]In where?
[23:08]Ohio.
[23:09]Okay.
[23:09]And he had the house in Ohio
[23:11]because of his business relationship
[23:15]with Mr. Wexner.
[23:17]And he had a...
[23:19]And I had to go and decorate
[23:21]and put that house together.
[23:23]When we traveled together,
[23:25]we stayed in the same bed,
[23:30]but not in the...
[23:31]But I didn't...
[23:35]Go ahead.
[23:35]It's okay.
[23:36]Talk.
[23:38]So you stayed...
[23:39]So when you would travel with him
[23:41]to his house in Palm Beach, Ohio,
[23:44]or even just traveling,
[23:45]if it was just traveling with him,
[23:48]you would stay in the same bed,
[23:52]so sleep in the same bed with him?
[23:54]Yes.
[23:54]Okay.
[24:00]Epstein told me that he had a car accident.
[24:05]A what?
[24:06]Heart condition.
[24:07]Heart condition.
[24:08]Okay.
[24:09]Which meant that he didn't have
[24:12]intercourse to live,
[24:16]which suited me fine
[24:17]because I actually do have
[24:19]a medical condition,
[24:20]which proves me having
[24:25]a lot of intercourse.
[24:28]So what was your understanding
[24:31]of his heart condition
[24:32]and why that prevented him
[24:35]from having intercourse regularly?
[24:40]I mean, he liked other forms of sexual activities.
[24:53]Well, let's come back.
[24:54]We're going to obviously spend some time,
[24:56]a lot of time on
[24:58]the actual conduct he was accused of,
[25:00]so we'll come back to that.
[25:02]So pick up where you were talking about
[25:06]you traveling around with him.
[25:08]He rented the New York,
[25:12]a former Iranian house.
[25:14]Iranian, yeah.
[25:15]Until around 96.
[25:18]That time, I believe you said
[25:20]that he was basically your life,
[25:22]like you were with him pretty regularly.
[25:24]Well, no.
[25:26]So I never was with him regularly.
[25:28]That is one of those misnomeries.
[25:30]I mean, at the beginning,
[25:31]I did see more of him,
[25:33]but I worked in his office,
[25:34]so I would go to the office
[25:36]and I would see him,
[25:37]and I would count in my head
[25:38]when I would see him,
[25:39]I would count that I would,
[25:41]that would be a day that I would see him.
[25:43]But I didn't,
[25:44]I never, ever stayed with him.
[25:46]I believe, certainly until
[25:51]93 or 94, what I didn't know
[25:53]was that I think he was still
[25:54]with his actual girlfriend,
[25:56]who was Eva Anderson.
[25:59]He became Eva Dubey.
[26:01]They had been together,
[26:02]my understanding,
[26:05]I think about 10 years.
[26:06]I'm not sure,
[26:07]but that's what I think, 10 years.
[26:11]And I had understood
[26:13]from my girlfriend initially
[26:14]that they weren't together,
[26:15]and Epsi himself had told me
[26:18]that they were not together,
[26:19]but I don't think that was true.
[26:23]So they were still together
[26:24]up until, I think, 94,
[26:26]when at some point,
[26:28]in that period,
[26:29]when Eva met Glenn Dubey
[26:31]and they got married,
[26:32]I think in 94.
[26:34]I don't remember when they got married,
[26:36]but her, she was his best friend
[26:42]and his,
[26:43]everything.
[26:43]He told me that he always wished
[26:45]that he had married her
[26:47]and had a child with her.
[26:48]And I know that they,
[26:50]she was family for his whole life.
[26:53]And I think even,
[26:54]I'm not sure this is true,
[26:55]but you guys will know
[26:56]if this is true or not.
[26:58]When he came back from Paris
[27:00]and you arrested him,
[27:02]I don't know if Eva was on the plane.
[27:04]Now, I think that either
[27:06]I read it in the discovery
[27:08]that I received
[27:10]or I saw it somewhere,
[27:11]but even if she wasn't on the plane,
[27:13]there must have been
[27:14]some email communication
[27:15]where she was in Paris
[27:17]at the same time
[27:17]and then a flight back.
[27:18]One or the other,
[27:19]I don't know which one
[27:20]is the correct version of that.
[27:22]But, so they were still
[27:24]obviously very close
[27:26]and remained throughout the time.
[27:27]In fact, he was, saw her.
[27:32]And so I also know now,
[27:34]which I didn't know at the time,
[27:36]was that he saw lots of other women.
[27:38]And I know that now
[27:40]because I can see it
[27:42]from the flight loads.
[27:44]And I know it now
[27:45]because I can see from the emails.
[27:49]So you know from the case
[27:51]that what happened.
[27:52]Yes, I didn't know that.
[27:54]Contemporaneously,
[27:55]I absolutely didn't know.
[27:56]So, okay, so just,
[27:58]we're going to spend time
[27:59]on everything you're talking about,
[28:00]but just to kind of close out
[28:03]big picture, your relationship.
[28:04]So we're now in the late 90s.
[28:08]Continue on with, again,
[28:10]staying high level to the extent
[28:12]you can about your relationship with him.
[28:15]So after,
[28:17]so my responsibilities increased
[28:21]with each acquisition that he got
[28:24]and each new project.
[28:25]So I believe the first thing
[28:28]that he purchased after
[28:34]was the ranch in Mexico.
[28:39]And so what he had tasked me with,
[28:41]I think that was purchased
[28:43]in 1994, if I'm correct.
[28:45]So he had tasked me,
[28:47]one of the things that we did was visit,
[28:50]in my mind, I say every state,
[28:51]but it wouldn't have been every state,
[28:52]but many states to go look at real estate and property.
[28:56]And so I know we went to Montana,
[28:58]I know we went to Utah,
[28:59]and it was,
[29:01]it was to go look at real estate.
[29:02]It was fun, to be honest.
[29:04]And then I arranged for us to go to New Mexico
[29:07]and he just loved New Mexico.
[29:10]And then I don't remember how the ranch happened.
[29:14]I don't remember that.
[29:15]Now it's lost.
[29:16]And then he ended up buying the ranch.
[29:17]And I think, if I'm right,
[29:19]it came from,
[29:21]well, the king's who named him the governor.
[29:23]I bought the ranch
[29:26]and then I had to deal with that.
[29:30]Dealing with that was extensive.
[29:31]I mean, the way that I thought of myself
[29:34]or the way that I think is the best way
[29:36]to explain how I view my role
[29:38]as a general manager,
[29:41]because each property to me was like a hotel.
[29:44]So the ranch was very challenging
[29:47]because not only that,
[29:48]but it had BLM land.
[29:50]So to maintain your BLM,
[29:52]you had to have cattle.
[29:55]And I love animals.
[29:57]And so the first thing are horses.
[29:59]So I wanted it,
[30:01]if you don't have a ranch,
[30:03]I like authenticity.
[30:05]So I don't think you should have a ranch.
[30:07]You're not going to have
[30:08]the things that make it special.
[30:10]So were you paid by him along the way?
[30:15]So I became salaried at some point.
[30:22]My memory is that I got paid
[30:23]25,000 a year to begin with.
[30:26]That's my memory.
[30:26]I may be wrong.
[30:28]And then with each,
[30:30]as it became obvious,
[30:31]because I kept thinking I was going to buy
[30:33]a home for him.
[30:39]And financially,
[30:40]you were not relying on him.
[30:42]The 25,000 or whatever amount you were paid,
[30:45]were you relying on that money to live
[30:48]and his generosity to live,
[30:50]or did you have your own money?
[30:54]And again, I want to just make sure
[30:55]we're talking about that.
[30:57]Keeping it between the late 90s,
[30:59]maybe I guess into a little of the 2000s.
[31:02]I just want to hit something on the head right now.
[31:04]There's a tremendous amount of reporting
[31:06]that said that I had a trust fund.
[31:10]I have never had a trust fund at any time.
[31:13]So how did you live?
[31:13]Did you live with,
[31:15]I mean, 25,000 is not enough to live on?
[31:17]So I had during this period of time,
[31:19]the secret of the Sirius Ford Squad
[31:23]had come to see me
[31:24]in relation to my father's passing.
[31:27]And to establish that I had been involved
[31:30]in any way with his business
[31:32]or with any shenanigans.
[31:38]I've told the story many times,
[31:39]so I don't know if it's now somewhat hip-hop before,
[31:41]but I'll tell you what my memory is.
[31:44]I received a letter from them
[31:45]that said you can't go about my business.
[31:48]And my memory,
[31:50]maybe hip-hop before,
[31:51]it was a P.S.
[31:52]It said I used to know what it's custom.
[31:54]I had nothing.
[31:55]There was no,
[31:56]I was never involved in any of his business, whatever.
[31:59]I was free.
[32:02]So, but you're,
[32:04]obviously your father and your family
[32:06]had a lot of businesses.
[32:09]Is it because the money,
[32:11]whatever money or whatever equity
[32:14]was in the businesses
[32:15]just stayed with your other family members?
[32:18]No, there was no money.
[32:20]So my father was never attached to me.
[32:25]He was born a peasant.
[32:29]A real one.
[32:30]Dirt floor, no shoes, no clothes.
[32:34]Some clothes, but not, you know,
[32:36]sorry, I don't mean to say.
[32:38]And nothing.
[32:40]And he never,
[32:42]he was never into that.
[32:43]I mean, there were things
[32:44]that he had his extravagances.
[32:46]He loved his boat and his plane.
[32:48]So obviously he made money for that,
[32:50]but there was no, nothing else.
[32:52]And there was not a single penny
[32:53]that came to any of us at any time, ever.
[32:57]Okay. So, so when you're talking about
[33:01]your life with Mr. Epstein in the 90s,
[33:06]you're, you're not,
[33:07]you're very different financially.
[33:09]You're very different
[33:10]financially positioned than he is.
[33:12]Meaning he's giving you money.
[33:13]He's paying for your, when you fly,
[33:15]he as soon as they see your flights.
[33:17]Yes.
[33:18]Okay.
[33:21]Okay. So you, you,
[33:22]I interrupted you when you were saying
[33:24]how you were functioning as general manager.
[33:25]You help with the New Mexico ranch.
[33:28]So did, did your role with him
[33:31]continue like that for many years
[33:34]or for how long?
[33:36]So I continued in 2000.
[33:39]Well, in, by 1999,
[33:42]our relationship had founded in.
[33:46]Why?
[33:50]Well, two reasons.
[33:51]We were never sleeping together again.
[33:53]So we stopped having sexual relations
[33:56]in 1999, not full sex.
[34:01]Sorry, just to be clear.
[34:03]Didn't mean that we didn't still share
[34:05]a bed, bedroom or something or whatever.
[34:08]He had another girlfriend.
[34:10]He had what?
[34:11]Other girlfriends.
[34:13]I definitively knew that it was over
[34:17]after 9-11 actually,
[34:19]because we were both from New York.
[34:24]And I don't know,
[34:25]were you in New York?
[34:26]Maybe 9-11.
[34:27]I mean, 9-11's,
[34:32]and it was a scary time.
[34:33]If you were in New York,
[34:34]you didn't know.
[34:35]I didn't know.
[34:36]Nobody knew what was going on.
[34:38]And he was on Sunday 1st Street
[34:39]and I was in 65th Street, my house.
[34:45]And he wouldn't see me at all.
[34:53]I saw his mum,
[34:54]who I'm very close to,
[34:55]who's in the hospital at Lenox Hill.
[34:57]She's asked me to look after her.
[35:00]And then I knew,
[35:01]as anyone did at that time,
[35:03]you're not going to be there
[35:04]for someone at 9-11.
[35:05]You're never going to be there.
[35:07]So to me, that was the blind side.
[35:12]And he had another English girlfriend, actually,
[35:16]from 2000.
[35:18]Are you though still on his,
[35:20]are you still being paid by him at this point?
[35:22]Yes.
[35:24]Okay, so go ahead.
[35:26]So what, at that point,
[35:29]when you say you realize kind of...
[35:31]Well, I mean, I'm talking about the...
[35:33]I had had, there was a...
[35:36]I wanted to get married and have children.
[35:38]And Epstein had encouraged me to believe
[35:45]that that would...
[35:47]I don't know about them.
[35:48]Certainly by the late 90s,
[35:50]I knew the marriage part was never going to happen.
[35:52]I had believed that maybe in 96, 97, 98, maybe.
[35:57]But then I realized it wasn't that.
[35:58]But I did think that you might have a child,
[36:01]which is what I had really wanted.
[36:08]Okay, so what happens between 2001 and then 2019
[36:14]with your relationship with him?
[36:17]Give or take 2001.
[36:19]So we stopped having physicality.
[36:22]I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't friends.
[36:24]I certainly did stay sometimes in his room.
[36:27]Friendly benefits, if you will.
[36:29]Just not sex.
[36:31]So, just a...
[36:36]I started dating.
[36:39]And I met someone that I found very much in love with in 2003.
[36:46]His name was Ted Waite.
[36:49]Ted Waite, who you may know as the founder of Avery,
[36:53]the computers.
[36:56]And we had an amazing relationship
[37:00]that ended and went on until 2010, I think.
[37:06]And I was with Ted from that time.
[37:09]Did you meet him through Mr. Epson?
[37:12]No. Well, indirectly.
[37:14]I suppose you could say so.
[37:16]No, they never met.
[37:18]I was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't.
[37:27]I was with Mr. Epson.
[37:30]Mr. Epson was my friend.
[37:31]Not Epstein's friend.
[37:33]And Epstein had flown here.
[37:37]And that was a dinner.
[37:38]And Ted came to the dinner.
[37:39]So, I guess indirectly through Mr. Epson,
[37:42]because it was his plane.
[37:43]But I'd been there anyway without him.
[37:45]I had...
[37:46]Was Epstein on the plane with you guys' food?
[37:49]On that trip, yes.
[37:51]Well, yes.
[37:54]Yes.
[37:55]So when you say the dinner was well?
[38:00]Totally.
[38:01]Okay.
[38:02]And so you had flown over with...
[38:05]So who was on the plane for that trip?
[38:07]I don't mean you never, but you said...
[38:09]So Mr. Epstein was on the plane?
[38:10]Yes.
[38:11]You were on the plane?
[38:11]Yes.
[38:13]Who else?
[38:14]That you can remember.
[38:15]I'm not...
[38:16]You only know what you remember.
[38:18]Was President Clinton on the plane?
[38:20]Clinton.
[38:22]He would have had his guy, Doug Vance.
[38:26]And maybe Jason Cooper.
[38:28]Maybe a trip of his own.
[38:30]But...
[38:31]Oh.
[38:32]And you...
[38:32]And so why...
[38:33]So how did you meet...
[38:37]So why did you say that's when you met him?
[38:39]And that you met him through Clinton?
[38:41]Well, it was a...
[38:42]I don't think Ted would have been there had it not been a...
[38:44]It was a President Clinton dinner.
[38:46]And Ted came to be with President Clinton,
[38:49]not to be with Mr. Epstein.
[38:51]Does that make sense?
[38:52]Yes.
[38:53]That's why I say that.
[38:54]Okay.
[38:55]So you're...
[38:57]So in the time that you're dating,
[38:58]that you're with him to 2009,
[39:01]are you still working for Mr. Epstein during that time?
[39:03]So he's...
[39:07]It'd be true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard,
[39:09]Mr. Epstein tried very hard to keep me,
[39:11]to work with him.
[39:13]Because...
[39:15]I mean, this is a complex operation.
[39:18]I'm not talking about anything
[39:19]until just the sheer size of the project.
[39:22]I'm talking about construction projects,
[39:24]the houses, the staff.
[39:26]It's a really significant job.
[39:30]And I ran all the properties,
[39:34]the staff in the properties,
[39:36]the management of the properties,
[39:38]that and all the construction.
[39:40]And we're talking tens of millions of dollars.
[39:45]I can't remember what the budget was
[39:47]for construction on any given year.
[39:50]It's gone.
[39:50]But these are very significant projects.
[39:53]And so that was what I did,
[39:57]and I managed the budgets.
[39:58]Well, I didn't manage the budgets.
[40:00]I oversaw the budgets.
[40:01]I would just make sure that
[40:02]if you said you bought an air-conditioning plant,
[40:08]I saw an air-conditioning plant,
[40:09]and I could call the island manager,
[40:13]did you receive the carrier, whatever?
[40:17]You know.
[40:18]When did Mr. Epstein purchase the island?
[40:22]I want to say 1996 or 1997, something like that.
[40:26]Okay, so we're going to come back
[40:28]and spend more time on the money
[40:30]with respect to Mr. Epstein and his wealth,
[40:33]but just so we can finish this.
[40:36]So in 2009, you end your relationship with Ted?
[40:40]2009, 2010.
[40:42]Okay.
[40:42]I can't remember if it was 10.
[40:43]Okay.
[40:44]So in that time period,
[40:45]what happens next,
[40:46]as far as your relationship with Mr. Epstein?
[40:48]I don't have one.
[40:50]You don't have one of them, like,
[40:52]you don't see him,
[40:53]or it's just a different relationship?
[40:56]I did see, I maybe saw him once or twice,
[40:59]maybe even three times.
[41:01]I certainly went to his house once, for sure.
[41:04]Maybe twice, but I was not seeing him.
[41:08]The only time that I was in touch with him
[41:12]was when the things happened,
[41:16]like things, I mean, in the crest that affected me,
[41:20]or when the CVRA case was filed
[41:22]and there was all that rubbish that went out,
[41:24]because I needed information,
[41:26]because I didn't know anything about what was happening
[41:30]and I needed his help.
[41:32]A, to understand, I,
[41:34]I don't know if that makes sense,
[41:36]I need to rephrase that.
[41:38]I don't mean his help.
[41:39]I meant to have answers
[41:41]so that I had an ability to defend myself.
[41:45]That's what I'm thinking.
[41:46]I'm not doing anything.
[41:47]So when does that relationship change?
[41:49]So you're working,
[41:51]you talked about when the physical relationship stopped,
[41:54]and then you're still working for him or with him,
[41:57]managing his properties
[41:58]and serving as a general manager.
[42:01]You then start your own relationship
[42:03]with another individual, with Ted,
[42:05]from 2003 till 2009 or 10.
[42:08]At what point in that whole period
[42:10]is there more of a break,
[42:12]where you're no longer acting as his general manager?
[42:14]I wanted to have a full break
[42:16]when I started dating Ted,
[42:18]and he was clever.
[42:24]I suppose it would be true to say
[42:25]that I sort of viewed his steps in that point
[42:28]as sort of family fuel,
[42:30]like someone I could rely on,
[42:32]and I should have had more confidence in myself.
[42:37]I can see that now,
[42:38]but at the time, given everything
[42:40]that had happened in my life,
[42:42]I thought that it would,
[42:44]and I saw how he was with other people,
[42:46]like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable,
[42:49]saying, you know, I thought this would be,
[42:51]and he always said I was like family.
[42:52]So he worked hard to maintain a relationship with me.
[42:59]He was generous with me.
[43:01]He never used the pain, which was very generous.
[43:05]He would check in with my mum.
[43:11]He thinks that we were meaningful to me in that time.
[43:17]And then it may still not have worked,
[43:20]but his mother, Paula,
[43:25]had been in a very serious car crash,
[43:28]and she had become sort of like a surrogate mother to me,
[43:34]sort of because my mum wasn't there.
[43:37]I could look after her.
[43:40]The way that I would have liked to look after my own mum.
[43:51]So I became very close to his mother,
[43:54]and she had been in a car crash,
[43:57]and in 2004, I believe, it may have been five.
[44:03]I don't recall exactly.
[44:07]Her health took a serious decline,
[44:11]and Epstein called me and asked me
[44:14]if I could look after her.
[44:16]By looking after her, that meant organising her doctors,
[44:24]making sure she had new clothes,
[44:26]making sure her house was clean.
[44:28]Where was she?
[44:29]She lived in a retirement establishment
[44:35]outside of Palm Beach, outside of West Palm.
[44:40]I was going to say something like the Golden Girls,
[44:42]but it's not called that.
[44:43]I just don't remember what it's called.
[44:46]But it was an old age.
[44:47]It was a retirement home, if you will.
[44:49]Todd, I don't know.
[44:50]We've been going for maybe about an hour now.
[44:52]Do you think this is a good time?
[44:54]Yeah, yeah.
[44:54]So we'll take a break.
[44:57]All right, so we're going to take a break.
[44:59]The time is 10.56.
[45:06]All right, we're continuing the proper interview
[45:10]with Miss Maxwell.
[45:11]The time is 11.07 a.m. on Thursday, July 24th.
[45:16]All right, so just picking up where we just stopped.
[45:21]So you have basically a break.
[45:25]Well, not a break.
[45:26]That's the wrong word.
[45:26]But your relationship with Mr. Maxwell,
[45:29]professional and other changes in 2003, 2004?
[45:34]Yeah, I mean, over the time that I stay with Ted,
[45:37]the more time I'm with Ted,
[45:39]the more distance I have with him.
[45:41]And then when the arrest, well, let's go back.
[45:46]When he, whatever happened in 2005,
[45:49]and he became arrested in 2000.
[45:52]So when he's charged and arrested
[45:54]in what we'll call the Florida investigations,
[45:59]that's what you're talking about?
[46:00]I am.
[46:00]Okay, go ahead.
[46:01]So I had, I was not in, well-
[46:07]Well, were you a part of that investigation?
[46:09]Absolutely.
[46:09]Did law enforcement ever talk to you as far as that?
[46:12]Did you, like, the feds never talked to you?
[46:14]The FBI never talked to you?
[46:16]No, I never even received a phone call.
[46:19]So you didn't receive a subpoena?
[46:21]No.
[46:21]Did the state law enforcement ever reach out to you?
[46:24]No.
[46:25]As far as you know,
[46:28]did the government, either state or federal,
[46:31]subpoena your bank records or subpoena anything
[46:35]from your financial life during that time?
[46:39]Not as far as I'm aware.
[46:40]Now, if they did, I don't know it,
[46:41]and I have no idea about that.
[46:43]To be honest, but I'm not aware of it,
[46:45]and I would say no,
[46:46]but maybe you guys do things that I don't know.
[46:50]So how did you learn of that case
[46:53]when Mr. Epstein was arrested,
[46:54]or did you know that something was happening before then?
[46:58]First thing I knew was he had told me
[47:02]he was deciding to redecorate the house in Palm Beach.
[47:08]Didn't surprise me.
[47:09]It was like a rolling situation.
[47:11]But by that time, are you doing,
[47:13]like he tells you because he wants your help,
[47:15]or had your relationship changed by this time
[47:17]where you were no longer kind of acting
[47:19]as his general manager?
[47:21]No, I was still around.
[47:27]I wasn't gone.
[47:28]I was with Ted.
[47:29]I was traveling.
[47:30]I wasn't daily.
[47:32]If you'd asked me where he was in any given time,
[47:34]I'm not sure I would have known then.
[47:36]I mean, I felt like, I suppose,
[47:41]the relationship moved into sort of like a
[47:46]long-term friend, family, you know,
[47:49]like I felt he had with Eva, if I'm honest.
[47:52]So he says to you he's going to redecorate the Palm Beach house?
[47:56]He asked me specifically which decorator
[47:58]he thinks he should use
[48:00]because I had a lot of contacts with decorators,
[48:04]and he was not very good with people.
[48:09]And he was useless at maintaining relationships
[48:13]with people who worked for him.
[48:16]I'm not.
[48:18]So anyway, so I recommended,
[48:24]I think I recommended,
[48:26]I can't be 100% sure because it's been a long time,
[48:27]but I think I recommended Mark Zeph at that time.
[48:31]Mark Zeph, I believe.
[48:33]And I don't know why.
[48:37]I don't remember.
[48:37]That's all lost to time.
[48:38]But anyway, at some point,
[48:43]I think his mother had died now.
[48:45]I can't remember the timing of all of that either.
[48:48]But I ended up in Palm Beach,
[48:51]and he had asked me to come and look at the swatches
[48:54]or whatever he was doing
[48:55]because they had laid it all out over the house
[48:57]and various things.
[48:58]And I think he'd asked for my opinion.
[48:59]That's my memory of this.
[49:02]It may also be that Ted and I were going to Palm Beach
[49:05]because Ted had a golf match or something.
[49:07]There was a reason I was in Palm Beach.
[49:09]It wasn't so leaf.
[49:11]Maybe that's not true either.
[49:12]I don't know.
[49:15]Sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was there.
[49:17]I don't know if that's part of that time or not.
[49:19]Or Ted went there and left me.
[49:20]I don't know.
[49:21]Something.
[49:21]Anyway, I was there.
[49:25]No, that's not how that went either.
[49:27]No.
[49:28]Anyway, at some point in that time,
[49:30]I saw all the swatches.
[49:32]At some point in 2005, I think that was.
[49:36]And then I believe,
[49:39]but I don't remember.
[49:40]I think I got a phone call, actually.
[49:41]I wasn't in Palm Beach.
[49:42]I think I got a phone call that
[49:44]there was a police at his house or something.
[49:50]Would you have gotten a phone call from him
[49:51]or you think you were just told by somebody
[49:53]that knew that it had happened
[49:54]or don't you remember?
[49:56]Definitely not him.
[49:57]OK.
[49:58]I think it would have been the house.
[49:59]So when that happens, whenever it was,
[50:01]that's kind of the first time you know
[50:03]that Mr. Epstein is being investigated for.
[50:07]I didn't even know what.
[50:09]I didn't even understand.
[50:10]OK.
[50:10]I didn't have a context for that.
[50:13]It was like I didn't even know.
[50:16]I didn't know.
[50:17]OK, so I didn't I didn't.
[50:18]I didn't I'm not sure even what I thought.
[50:20]I was like, that's weird.
[50:21]After you find out about it,
[50:24]what happens with your relationship?
[50:25]I asked him.
[50:26]I asked him what was going on.
[50:27]And he said, not to worry.
[50:31]Nothing, nothing.
[50:32]Thank you.
[50:33]Don't worry about it.
[50:35]And then it went quiet.
[50:37]I didn't he didn't say he didn't share.
[50:39]I wasn't part of it at all.
[50:42]I was off with Ted and I really just.
[50:44]But did he tell you?
[50:45]Well, why don't we come back to more specifics
[50:48]around that time period in a few minutes?
[50:51]I want to just finish this opening part.
[50:53]So that case goes on.
[50:56]Ultimately, it ends.
[51:02]What was the relationship like with him
[51:04]during that case
[51:06]when he goes, you know, when he says he told me,
[51:10]he said, listen, I'm going to jail.
[51:14]And he goes, I'd like you to stay on board
[51:17]to manage the properties, the animals,
[51:20]this and that, and just stay put
[51:22]and I'll continue to pay you
[51:24]in case there's any emergency.
[51:25]I don't trust anyone.
[51:26]And I was like.
[51:29]OK, well, you said continue to pay you.
[51:31]Had he had he never stopped paying.
[51:34]He never said.
[51:34]So even when your relationship changes,
[51:36]you're getting does the amount increase
[51:38]from the twenty five thousand
[51:39]or so a year in the beginning?
[51:41]Like, well, how much are you getting paid yearly?
[51:43]I think it ended at the time.
[51:44]Well, we had different payment structures
[51:46]and I'm happy to explain how that works.
[51:47]But I think salary wise,
[51:50]if I'm right, it ended at around
[51:51]a quarter of a million a year.
[51:52]How much?
[51:53]Quarter of a million, two hundred and fifty thousand.
[51:55]And when and when did it end?
[51:57]When was that?
[51:58]Two thousand and.
[52:01]Eight or nine.
[52:01]Nine so nine when did he come out of jail?
[52:04]Whenever he came out of jail.
[52:06]OK, so and over the years
[52:09]it increased from what you said
[52:11]was you thought about twenty five thousand
[52:13]to two hundred fifty thousand.
[52:14]That's between like ninety early nineties
[52:17]until two thousand nine or ten.
[52:19]Whatever he stopped, is that right?
[52:21]And how were you paid W2 from which?
[52:26]From what company are you?
[52:27]He he's like I he just moved me around
[52:32]and I went to this company that I didn't care.
[52:34]OK, and I didn't care.
[52:36]I didn't think I didn't understand
[52:37]any rhyme or reason.
[52:38]It doesn't feel just, you know, whatever.
[52:40]OK, so so when he's going to go to jail,
[52:43]he says, can you stay around and manage everything?
[52:46]Yeah.
[52:46]And do you do that?
[52:47]I do.
[52:48]OK, and then and then we'll come back to that.
[52:51]We'll not manage everything now.
[52:52]I mean, there are other people at this point.
[52:53]My specific role then was very, very diminished.
[52:57]I reviewed the build structure
[52:59]that came from the constructions
[53:01]that were storming the island.
[53:04]OK.
[53:04]And wherever else I was going to Paris at this point,
[53:06]because I speak French.
[53:07]I'm fluent in French.
[53:08]And also my relationship with the French
[53:10]decorator was critical to him.
[53:12]And in the French component part of of that aspect
[53:17]was really vital.
[53:18]And so you'd have had to find someone who was
[53:21]well actually in the Spanish trilingual.
[53:23]You would have had to find someone with trilingual
[53:25]to find that he trusted.
[53:27]Did you?
[53:28]To not steal from him.
[53:31]Did you?
[53:35]So when he gets out of jail,
[53:38]between that time, 2009 to 10 and 2019,
[53:44]what's your relationship like with Mr. Epstein?
[53:47]Almost nonexistent.
[53:50]Why?
[53:52]I had just moved on and I just didn't want
[53:54]to have anything.
[53:55]I didn't want the drama.
[53:56]I didn't want to be associated with.
[54:00]So do you recall,
[54:03]when you say almost nonexistent,
[54:05]does that mean some phone calls,
[54:07]some visits, some trips?
[54:08]So what does that mean?
[54:10]I don't think there were any trips.
[54:14]Oh, I don't think so.
[54:16]Where were you living during that time period?
[54:19]Or was it between 2009, 10 and 2019?
[54:23]I was back in New York.
[54:25]OK.
[54:28]So you had phone calls with him on occasion?
[54:33]Yes.
[54:34]Well, I certainly did.
[54:35]Whenever there was any legal drama
[54:37]or any serious press attention,
[54:39]I always called him to try and find out
[54:41]what was going on.
[54:43]And I did email him at that time
[54:45]for those types of details.
[54:47]I was like, what do I do?
[54:51]And then when he's charged in New York,
[54:54]federally, how did you learn about that case?
[54:57]In the press.
[54:58]And had you, as far as you know,
[55:01]been contacted by law enforcement
[55:03]before his arrest?
[55:04]No.
[55:05]I wasn't in the indictment.
[55:07]No, I know that.
[55:08]But even as a witness or asking you
[55:10]if you would give documents or materials?
[55:12]I had never.
[55:16]Up until when my lawyers said that
[55:20]I didn't even know.
[55:22]I had no knowledge of them
[55:24]being interested in me, honestly.
[55:26]I don't want to say until he had died.
[55:30]Now, I know that my lawyers were in touch
[55:32]with some district of New York
[55:35]at some point after his arrest.
[55:38]I'm pretty sure that had to have happened.
[55:40]But my understanding is that
[55:42]they had not shown any interest.
[55:44]I know my lawyers went to see them
[55:46]once, I believe.
[55:48]Went to see him, meaning Mr. Upstein?
[55:50]No, them.
[55:50]The Southern District of New York.
[55:52]Sorry.
[55:54]And that they had been in regular,
[55:56]in touch with him.
[55:58]And...
[55:58]But now you're talking about
[56:00]after Mr. Upstein died
[56:01]or are you talking about before he died?
[56:04]I think...
[56:06]If you can't remember.
[56:08]Easily verifiable.
[56:10]My memory is that they were in touch
[56:13]with him when he was arrested.
[56:17]I don't know if anything happened
[56:18]until after his death, then after that.
[56:20]Okay.
[56:21]I don't think they saw them,
[56:23]met with them.
[56:24]Southern District of New York
[56:25]I'm talking about now
[56:25]until after he died.
[56:27]I know that they were in regular
[56:30]telephone contact with them
[56:31]and that my lawyers believed
[56:34]that they had been told
[56:36]that there was no interest in me.
[56:37]Okay.
[56:38]And were absolutely stunned
[56:40]when I was arrested.
[56:42]Maybe stunned is too big a word
[56:43]but surprised.
[56:44]I certainly was.
[56:45]Okay.
[56:46]So, let's...
[56:49]Okay, so that was a long description
[56:53]of what was a very long life
[56:55]and that was very helpful.
[56:56]So, I want to go back
[56:58]and talk more specifically now
[57:00]about particular areas
[57:02]and that was a very helpful
[57:04]kind of foundation for us.
[57:07]The first thing I want to talk about
[57:10]you talked about earlier on
[57:11]about Mr. Upstein's financial success.
[57:16]What, you know, do you know how he...
[57:19]When you first meet him
[57:20]at some point you say
[57:22]I got this place for you to rent
[57:23]you can't afford it
[57:24]and he laughs at you
[57:24]and says yes I can.
[57:27]What did you learn about his wealth
[57:29]and how he was
[57:31]and how he accumulated his money?
[57:33]I can tell you what he told me.
[57:34]Yes.
[57:35]So, I know that he was hired
[57:39]from working at a private school
[57:41]whose name eludes me at this point.
[57:42]Dalton.
[57:43]Dalton.
[57:44]He was working at Dalton
[57:45]who's a math teacher
[57:47]and he met
[57:53]I think it was Ace, I'm not sure
[57:55]he met someone from Bear
[57:56]who hired him
[57:57]because he was very good at math
[57:59]and I believe that he then worked
[58:02]on creating a trading of...
[58:17]Just describe it, it's okay.
[58:21]He came up with some new type
[58:23]of trading system
[58:24]not a system so much
[58:25]but as a vehicle
[58:28]a trading vehicle
[58:29]that I'm just escaping right now.
[58:31]And this is why he was working at Bear?
[58:33]At Bestons, yes.
[58:34]Okay.
[58:35]And was this before you met him?
[58:39]Yes.
[58:39]So this is what he told you?
[58:40]Yes.
[58:40]And what you learned?
[58:41]Yes.
[58:42]This is what he told me himself.
[58:44]And so, and then eventually
[58:46]he starts a financial firm?
[58:49]You know that to be true or no?
[58:51]Jay Epstein and Company,
[58:52]you ever heard of that?
[58:53]Yeah, yes.
[58:54]So, hang on a minute.
[58:55]So, this I did not know
[58:58]but this I had subsequently learned
[59:00]is that he had some problem
[59:02]or some issue at Bestons
[59:05]and there was some disagreement.
[59:09]He wasn't fired
[59:10]because obviously he was still
[59:11]very friendly with Ace
[59:12]and with Jimmy
[59:14]at least by the time I met him
[59:15]but they were working with him
[59:17]and he ran,
[59:18]he had money at Bestons
[59:23]and his money, his client's money
[59:25]will come to that
[59:26]but he started,
[59:28]he told me himself
[59:29]that he started a business
[59:32]where he looked for stolen money.
[59:38]So, if somebody,
[59:44]let's see,
[59:45]I'm trying to think of some
[59:46]intelligent way to say it
[59:49]but I can't think of anything.
[59:50]I've been with, not really,
[59:52]I'll give it to you.
[59:53]So let's say you have El Chapo.
[59:55]God, I don't know where he comes from
[59:57]but anyway, we've got El Chapo.
[59:59]And El Chapo's laundering money
[1:00:01]or he's working with
[1:00:03]the Sinaloa cartel
[1:00:04]and he steals money
[1:00:05]from the Sinaloa cartel
[1:00:07]and he moves it to wherever.
[1:00:09]So he's got stolen money
[1:00:10]from the Sinaloa goes to Epstein.
[1:00:12]This didn't happen.
[1:00:13]I'm just coming up
[1:00:16]with something in my head
[1:00:17]and the Sinaloa says to Epstein,
[1:00:19]can you track down my billion dollars
[1:00:22]that the other cartels
[1:00:25]stole from me and Epstein
[1:00:26]will go and find the billion dollars
[1:00:27]and will take a portion of the money
[1:00:30]that was stolen as a fee
[1:00:33]and give back the remainder.
[1:00:34]That would be on a percentage basis.
[1:00:35]No, but like what you just described,
[1:00:37]which I appreciate was just a hypothetical.
[1:00:39]Please, that was completely hypothetical.
[1:00:41]That would involve like so too
[1:00:43]kind of drug cartels
[1:00:45]stealing from each other.
[1:00:47]Practically speaking,
[1:00:49]he was more of a businessman.
[1:00:52]So here's how I think it started
[1:00:54]is that he had a girlfriend.
[1:00:55]It was always good.
[1:00:55]You're always to the girls
[1:00:57]I guess there was a girl whose name
[1:00:59]will come back to me.
[1:01:01]Maybe not whilst we're here,
[1:01:03]but I don't know.
[1:01:03]Maybe there's a woman.
[1:01:05]There was a woman and he.
[1:01:08]She was the daughter of a billionaire,
[1:01:11]for instance,
[1:01:12]and that billionaire
[1:01:14]who's ever whatever his name was
[1:01:15]had had some money stolen
[1:01:17]and for some reason
[1:01:19]this woman introduced Jeffrey
[1:01:21]and Jeffrey.
[1:01:21]I think that's how that business started.
[1:01:24]That's what I remember.
[1:01:25]And is that something
[1:01:26]he told you about or something
[1:01:27]that happened while you knew him?
[1:01:29]No, something he told me
[1:01:31]before I met him.
[1:01:32]And so when you meet him
[1:01:33]and once you're part of his life
[1:01:35]in the early to mid 90s,
[1:01:38]what is he doing to make money
[1:01:39]that you see he does?
[1:01:41]He have clients.
[1:01:41]Does he have rich clients?
[1:01:42]Does he have famous clients?
[1:01:43]And how and what if he does have clients,
[1:01:47]what services he providing them?
[1:01:49]He does have.
[1:01:49]Well, obviously there's the one
[1:01:51]very famous client
[1:01:52]that everybody talks about,
[1:01:53]which is less wax now.
[1:01:54]And that was a very important client to him.
[1:01:57]And he I think it's probably helpful
[1:02:01]to describe what I imagine.
[1:02:03]I imagine what I know to be true
[1:02:05]about what he managed for us.
[1:02:08]And there's some bits
[1:02:09]that I'll be improvising.
[1:02:12]I want to just make you understand
[1:02:14]I was not part of Epstein's business world
[1:02:17]except tangentially and obviously.
[1:02:20]So what I'm talking about
[1:02:21]is what I observed
[1:02:23]or what I overheard
[1:02:25]or what I saw within the business,
[1:02:27]but I wasn't responsible for any
[1:02:29]of the client's money
[1:02:30]or anything like that.
[1:02:31]So separate.
[1:02:32]Yeah, I understand.
[1:02:33]Okay, so with less, for instance,
[1:02:36]it was really encompassing.
[1:02:42]It could go from
[1:02:48]the structure of the business.
[1:02:51]So he would he structured
[1:02:52]or restructured the limited.
[1:02:57]I know that.
[1:02:59]And I'll come back to that
[1:03:00]because I also traveled with him.
[1:03:02]And I was in business meetings
[1:03:03]with them on the plane
[1:03:04]when they were there.
[1:03:05]So I could observe
[1:03:06]and I could hear some of this.
[1:03:08]And whilst I'm not necessarily
[1:03:10]terribly business sophisticated
[1:03:11]and sophisticated enough
[1:03:13]to be able to at least
[1:03:15]have some knowledge of what was happening.
[1:03:16]All right, so then
[1:03:18]he restructured the business.
[1:03:20]He restructured
[1:03:23]his entire personal finances
[1:03:26]and would also
[1:03:31]handle all of the investment strategy.
[1:03:33]I don't know if it was 100 percent.
[1:03:35]Mr. Wexner, you're saying.
[1:03:36]Sorry, yes.
[1:03:37]Or this is all Wexner
[1:03:38]I'm talking about now.
[1:03:39]So let's say you had
[1:03:43]a billion dollars to invest.
[1:03:45]So you would, you know,
[1:03:47]in people's investment portfolios,
[1:03:49]you'd have, you know,
[1:03:50]some tea bars and this and that.
[1:03:53]But Epstein's strategies
[1:03:55]would be much more sophisticated than that.
[1:03:57]So just staying with Mr. Wexner,
[1:04:01]from what you heard or saw,
[1:04:05]is Mr. Epstein paid by him
[1:04:08]in percentages?
[1:04:10]So there would be a deal
[1:04:11]and he would be paid?
[1:04:11]Or did you understand it
[1:04:13]to be like a flat fee?
[1:04:14]Was he a business partner?
[1:04:15]Like, how did you understand him to be paid?
[1:04:17]I think it was more a la carte.
[1:04:19]So let's say
[1:04:20]this is a conversation
[1:04:21]that actually Epstein told me.
[1:04:24]So it illustrated for me, said,
[1:04:26]if I saved someone
[1:04:29]five billion dollars,
[1:04:30]he would take a flat percentage
[1:04:32]of that five billion.
[1:04:33]He wouldn't have five billion back.
[1:04:35]And you say you think that
[1:04:36]is that because you heard him
[1:04:37]talking about that?
[1:04:38]Or you, you?
[1:04:39]It'd be a combination of both.
[1:04:41]I certainly told me that
[1:04:42]and I heard him talk to people like that.
[1:04:45]I couldn't, sorry.
[1:04:46]No, no, go ahead.
[1:04:47]No.
[1:04:49]Did he give,
[1:04:50]did Mr. Wexner gift
[1:04:52]a property in New York
[1:04:53]to Mr. Epstein?
[1:04:54]So we're talking about 71st Street.
[1:04:55]So I don't know
[1:04:56]what the business deal was.
[1:04:59]Because again, I'm not part
[1:05:00]of his business thing,
[1:05:01]but I think
[1:05:03]what happened would be that
[1:05:04]let's say wex owed him
[1:05:07]in theoretically
[1:05:09]for his services
[1:05:11]a hundred million
[1:05:13]or whatever it was.
[1:05:14]He could have traded
[1:05:15]that against the property.
[1:05:17]But do you know that that happened?
[1:05:18]Or that's are you kind of
[1:05:19]do you remember
[1:05:20]whether there was
[1:05:20]conversations about that?
[1:05:21]Are you just thinking
[1:05:23]that could be one way
[1:05:24]that it happened?
[1:05:27]I'm not sure.
[1:05:28]I'm not trying to be.
[1:05:29]I just don't remember
[1:05:30]if that's something I know
[1:05:31]or if that's something
[1:05:32]that I remember
[1:05:33]or if it's something
[1:05:33]that I subsequently know.
[1:05:35]I believe that
[1:05:36]to be what happened.
[1:05:37]But I don't want to tell you
[1:05:38]that I have.
[1:05:39]Does that make sense?
[1:05:40]Did Mr. Wexner
[1:05:41]and Mr. Epstein,
[1:05:42]are you aware of they
[1:05:44]of their falling out
[1:05:45]that they ultimately had?
[1:05:46]I think I wasn't there
[1:05:51]and I don't know
[1:05:53]how it happened.
[1:05:54]I know what
[1:05:55]less is said in the press.
[1:05:56]So you only know about
[1:05:58]their you know
[1:06:00]the falling out
[1:06:00]or whatever you want to call it
[1:06:02]from what you've kind of read
[1:06:03]not from any first hand knowledge
[1:06:05]you did.
[1:06:05]You weren't there.
[1:06:06]You weren't part of that.
[1:06:07]Correct.
[1:06:11]Do you know
[1:06:13]somebody named
[1:06:15]Steven Hoffenberg?
[1:06:17]Only from the press.
[1:06:19]Okay.
[1:06:20]And so you don't know
[1:06:21]anything about
[1:06:22]whatever business relationship
[1:06:23]they may have had.
[1:06:24]Mr. Epstein.
[1:06:25]Never spoke about him.
[1:06:27]Never mentioned it.
[1:06:28]I only learned about that
[1:06:30]whatever that is.
[1:06:31]I don't even know
[1:06:32]what the truth is of that story
[1:06:34]from the press.
[1:06:36]How about Leon Black?
[1:06:38]Oh, I did meet Leon.
[1:06:39]Do you know Leon?
[1:06:41]When do you remember?
[1:06:42]And again,
[1:06:42]I know we're talking about
[1:06:43]a very long time ago
[1:06:44]but do you remember
[1:06:45]appropriately when you met him?
[1:06:53]I could have met Leon.
[1:06:54]Not really.
[1:06:54]So I might have met him
[1:06:58]nothing to do
[1:06:58]because Leon Black
[1:06:59]is very good friends
[1:07:00]with other friends of mine.
[1:07:03]I would have met him
[1:07:03]when I say socially
[1:07:05]I might have met him.
[1:07:07]How Leon and Epstein
[1:07:09]became really good friends
[1:07:11]I'm not sure.
[1:07:12]But not through you
[1:07:13]as far as you're concerned?
[1:07:14]Not through me
[1:07:14]as far as I know.
[1:07:15]No.
[1:07:16]I'm sure that's not through me.
[1:07:19]Do you know
[1:07:19]what kind of work
[1:07:21]Mr. Epstein was doing
[1:07:22]for Mr. Black over the years?
[1:07:25]Same as what he did
[1:07:25]for Wexner.
[1:07:27]So we just talked about
[1:07:30]two individuals
[1:07:33]and again,
[1:07:34]I know we're talking about
[1:07:35]maybe a 15 year time period
[1:07:38]or even longer.
[1:07:40]How many clients like that
[1:07:41]did Mr. Epstein have?
[1:07:42]Well why don't I just
[1:07:43]give you the names
[1:07:44]that I remember?
[1:07:46]Why won't I just
[1:07:46]give you the names?
[1:07:47]Do you want the names?
[1:07:48]Sure, go ahead.
[1:07:51]Elizabeth Johnson,
[1:07:53]Johnson & Johnson.
[1:07:55]When did
[1:07:56]as far as you know
[1:07:56]when did the relationship
[1:07:57]between Ms. Johnson
[1:07:59]and Mr. Epstein start?
[1:08:00]90s.
[1:08:02]90...
[1:08:05]I don't...
[1:08:05]I...
[1:08:06]95, 96.
[1:08:08]So during the time period?
[1:08:09]Yes, we're talking 90s.
[1:08:10]We're talking when I was there.
[1:08:11]When I was around.
[1:08:12]How did their relationship start?
[1:08:15]I don't know how he
[1:08:16]became that friendly boy
[1:08:17]he ended up managing
[1:08:18]her money.
[1:08:19]I wasn't there.
[1:08:19]I mean he...
[1:08:22]I really had a separate life.
[1:08:23]We really had separate lives
[1:08:26]except where they sec'd.
[1:08:28]But it wasn't from...
[1:08:29]It wasn't from me.
[1:08:30]From you?
[1:08:30]No, it was not.
[1:08:31]Okay.
[1:08:31]And what's your understanding
[1:08:32]of what Mr. Epstein did
[1:08:34]for Ms. Johnson?
[1:08:35]Same as what he did
[1:08:36]for Wexner.
[1:08:37]And when I...
[1:08:38]You have to understand
[1:08:39]it went down to
[1:08:40]in tiny detail.
[1:08:41]So I remember
[1:08:42]this I remember
[1:08:43]this is an actual memory
[1:08:45]that he would make
[1:08:45]the contracts for the maids
[1:08:48]for the people
[1:08:48]who worked in their homes.
[1:08:50]So he would assist
[1:08:52]his clients
[1:08:53]at times with...
[1:08:55]You're saying
[1:08:55]with even small things
[1:08:56]like contractual relations?
[1:08:58]He said no detail
[1:08:59]was too small
[1:09:00]because everything
[1:09:01]that affected how they lived
[1:09:02]and how they managed their life
[1:09:04]was something that
[1:09:05]he felt he was
[1:09:07]if they wanted
[1:09:08]would be responsible for
[1:09:09]to make sure that
[1:09:10]the contract
[1:09:11]so that if you
[1:09:12]had to fire someone
[1:09:13]it wouldn't come back
[1:09:13]and sue you
[1:09:14]or if it...
[1:09:15]That sort of...
[1:09:18]Okay so
[1:09:19]Mr. Black,
[1:09:20]Mr. Werner,
[1:09:21]Ms. Johnson
[1:09:22]who else?
[1:09:23]What's the name of the woman?
[1:09:34]Is this someone named Jess Staley?
[1:09:36]Yeah I do know Jess.
[1:09:37]Who's that?
[1:09:38]He was at Morgan Stanley
[1:09:40]and at Barclays.
[1:09:42]What...
[1:09:42]Do you know whether
[1:09:43]he and Mr. Upsheen
[1:09:44]had a relationship?
[1:09:46]Well not a...
[1:09:47]Not a physical one.
[1:09:49]Well I didn't suggest it.
[1:09:50]I'm sorry.
[1:09:51]No I'm saying a relationship
[1:09:53]in the broadest sense of word.
[1:09:55]Business, personal, both?
[1:09:56]Yes both.
[1:09:58]Okay and do you
[1:10:00]know when they met?
[1:10:07]No I...
[1:10:09]No I don't know when they met.
[1:10:11]But you can time it.
[1:10:13]Oh I don't know that you can.
[1:10:14]No I don't know.
[1:10:15]So but what was the nature
[1:10:16]of their relationship
[1:10:17]as far as you know?
[1:10:18]I think they were friends
[1:10:19]and I think that they were
[1:10:19]business partners.
[1:10:20]Well partners,
[1:10:21]too strong a word
[1:10:22]but they were...
[1:10:22]They did business together.
[1:10:24]So did you...
[1:10:27]Again I want to stay focused
[1:10:28]on the time when you were
[1:10:29]the most involved in his life.
[1:10:30]So the early 90s through
[1:10:32]early 2000s?
[1:10:34]Beginning of the 2000s, yes.
[1:10:35]Did you...
[1:10:37]So we talked about four people.
[1:10:39]There's more.
[1:10:40]Were there more?
[1:10:41]Oh yes there were more.
[1:10:42]There was a lady whose name
[1:10:43]I just can't...
[1:10:45]Can I get my book?
[1:10:46]Maybe I wrote them down.
[1:10:47]Sure.
[1:10:48]Epstein wouldn't really
[1:11:11]let me meet his clients.
[1:11:13]What book are you...
[1:11:13]What is that?
[1:11:14]I'd write some notes
[1:11:15]for the meeting.
[1:11:16]Okay great.
[1:11:17]Is that right?
[1:11:17]No that's fine.
[1:11:18]I just was curious
[1:11:18]what we're looking at.
[1:11:19]Oh okay.
[1:11:20]Not the birthday book.
[1:11:21]It's not the birthday book.
[1:11:22]No we're going to come
[1:11:23]to that I'm sure.
[1:11:24]Yeah.
[1:11:24]All right I wrote down
[1:11:25]some names because I tried
[1:11:27]to make...
[1:11:29]I just want you to understand
[1:11:30]my memory is not as good
[1:11:32]as it was because
[1:11:33]when I was in Brooklyn
[1:11:35]I was in the shoe for
[1:11:37]almost two years
[1:11:39]and I was on suicide watch
[1:11:40]for almost two years
[1:11:42]which meant that
[1:11:42]they woke me up
[1:11:43]every 15 minutes
[1:11:44]for the entire time
[1:11:45]and it really did affect
[1:11:47]my ability to...
[1:11:49]I understand.
[1:11:50]Okay.
[1:11:51]Yeah.
[1:11:51]So I'm not...
[1:11:52]So you've taken some notes...
[1:11:54]I just made some names
[1:11:55]in advance of it.
[1:11:57]And you're happy to look at them.
[1:11:58]No go ahead.
[1:12:00]Okay.
[1:12:01]Well first two names
[1:12:03]one is Wexner,
[1:12:03]two is Staley,
[1:12:04]three is Leon Black.
[1:12:05]Okay.
[1:12:07]Glenn Dubin was a client.
[1:12:09]Who's that?
[1:12:10]Eva Dubin's husband.
[1:12:12]Okay.
[1:12:13]What was their...
[1:12:13]I mean if you can...
[1:12:15]Do you know about
[1:12:17]when that relationship started?
[1:12:19]Well it wouldn't have been
[1:12:20]before they got married for sure
[1:12:22]so we're going to start
[1:12:23]going to date that
[1:12:25]from wherever that was.
[1:12:26]And then Epstein was
[1:12:29]heavily involved
[1:12:30]with Highbridge Capital
[1:12:32]and financing
[1:12:33]or selling of Highbridge
[1:12:34]to J.P. Morgan.
[1:12:37]Okay.
[1:12:40]Go ahead.
[1:12:41]There's a Dubin.
[1:12:41]Yeah.
[1:12:45]You're only looking for clients.
[1:12:46]So...
[1:12:47]All right.
[1:12:53]There's a woman...
[1:12:56]There's a woman in Ohio.
[1:12:58]I just can't think of her name
[1:13:00]but it will...
[1:13:01]I tried to remember it yesterday
[1:13:02]so this is a good thing.
[1:13:04]As you think of things
[1:13:06]write it down
[1:13:07]and if they have any other names
[1:13:08]they'll ask you
[1:13:08]but don't force it out
[1:13:11]so you'll have time
[1:13:12]to think about this
[1:13:12]especially today
[1:13:13]this afternoon, overnight
[1:13:15]because we'll probably meet tomorrow.
[1:13:16]You can find them.
[1:13:17]I mean if you basically find
[1:13:18]a billionaire, a female...
[1:13:19]So the woman in Ohio
[1:13:20]who's wealthy...
[1:13:21]You can identify her yourself
[1:13:23]because she had
[1:13:24]the largest client painting
[1:13:28]that was huge
[1:13:29]so you can find that
[1:13:30]because it'll be in the museum.
[1:13:32]So he...
[1:13:32]That was one of Mr. Epstein's clients.
[1:13:34]She was one of Mr. Epstein's clients as well.
[1:13:36]Yes.
[1:13:37]Okay.
[1:13:37]Who else?
[1:13:41]Well...
[1:13:43]I think that there was people
[1:13:45]other people that he would like assist.
[1:13:47]I know that he helped Lynne Forrester
[1:13:49]who became Linda Rothchild.
[1:13:52]She'll deny it and she has
[1:13:53]but she can't.
[1:13:56]And when you say help
[1:13:57]the same...
[1:13:58]Well...
[1:13:59]Help in business or what will help?
[1:14:01]I have no idea what he did for her.
[1:14:03]I know he helped her financially.
[1:14:04]Her husband was the controller of New York.
[1:14:07]So...
[1:14:07]But I don't...
[1:14:08]Again I'm not inside his business
[1:14:10]but he would have...
[1:14:11]His...
[1:14:13]This notion that he blackmailed men
[1:14:17]we don't really have to go there.
[1:14:18]That he wasn't a businessman
[1:14:19]and that everything he did
[1:14:20]was a fraud or a thunk or whatever.
[1:14:21]I don't believe that to be true.
[1:14:23]Why?
[1:14:24]Sorry?
[1:14:24]Why do you...
[1:14:25]So you say you don't believe it to be true
[1:14:27]but show me why you think that.
[1:14:29]I know you've been talking about it
[1:14:30]that he was very conscientious.
[1:14:33]He was very good at math.
[1:14:34]He was...
[1:14:35]Paid a lot of attention to his clients
[1:14:36]but yes you're right.
[1:14:38]There's allegations of blackmail
[1:14:40]or also that there was some level of fraud
[1:14:43]involved in what he did
[1:14:44]and you don't believe it.
[1:14:44]Why do you say that?
[1:14:45]Well I...
[1:14:47]Let me rephrase that.
[1:14:48]If there was fraud
[1:14:50]I never saw it.
[1:14:51]What I saw or what I felt
[1:14:53]when I...
[1:14:54]His...
[1:14:54]I ran that office.
[1:14:55]I mean ran.
[1:14:56]I didn't...
[1:14:57]I was responsible for the staff.
[1:14:59]People worked.
[1:15:00]There were lawyers.
[1:15:01]There were accountants.
[1:15:03]I never heard him...
[1:15:06]I never...
[1:15:07]I never felt anything icky.
[1:15:13]Did you ever see him blackmail a client?
[1:15:17]No.
[1:15:17]Did you ever see him blackmail
[1:15:20]a friend or an acquaintance?
[1:15:21]No.
[1:15:22]Well so...
[1:15:25]I think when folks talk about blackmail
[1:15:27]and we can talk about...
[1:15:28]Sorry about that.
[1:15:29]We can talk about that now.
[1:15:31]There are a lot of allegations about him
[1:15:34]which we should talk about
[1:15:36]and we can do that now.
[1:15:37]And the fact that he abused young women.
[1:15:41]Yes.
[1:15:41]Full stop.
[1:15:42]Okay.
[1:15:43]Which means the way that I'm defining abuse
[1:15:46]as has been why the reporter
[1:15:48]is that he would cause young women
[1:15:53]in high school to be recruited
[1:15:55]to come to his house
[1:15:55]and give him massages
[1:15:57]and as part of that
[1:16:02]he would sexually abuse them.
[1:16:04]Yes.
[1:16:05]So I want to talk about that
[1:16:06]but as it relates to blackmail
[1:16:09]the question is whether
[1:16:11]you're aware of any time
[1:16:13]that any of the individuals
[1:16:15]we're talking about
[1:16:15]and we'll talk about others
[1:16:19]receive massages from
[1:16:21]women who are under 18
[1:16:23]or may have been under 18
[1:16:25]and that whether there was any sexual assaults
[1:16:28]or sexual contact
[1:16:30]between any of these people
[1:16:31]and those masseuses
[1:16:35]which would have allowed them, Mr. Epstein,
[1:16:37]potentially to blackmail them
[1:16:38]and say you have to continue to work with me
[1:16:40]or you have to give me money
[1:16:42]or else I'm going to tell the world
[1:16:45]that you did this.
[1:16:47]Right.
[1:16:48]But I think this is a really good place
[1:16:50]to start with how this story began.
[1:16:54]Okay.
[1:16:55]So even let's assume that that premise is correct
[1:17:01]that he was doing that
[1:17:03]and he was going to tell everybody
[1:17:05]going to say oh you know
[1:17:06]you had inappropriate relations
[1:17:09]with an underage girl
[1:17:10]if you don't have video
[1:17:13]or photographic evidence
[1:17:16]I'm not sure that even the FBI would take that
[1:17:19]well maybe today but certainly not back
[1:17:21]and would take that seriously.
[1:17:23]Um so you have to have something to say
[1:17:27]hey you know look I've got this video
[1:17:29]of you doing terrible things
[1:17:31]and you need to.
[1:17:32]So I built those houses many of them
[1:17:38]I decorated those houses
[1:17:40]I put the electricians in for the wiring
[1:17:44]I never wired nor saw a single house
[1:17:48]that had any type of inappropriate
[1:17:54]let's say video surveillance
[1:17:56]and I'll define that for you
[1:17:57]inappropriate surveillance would mean
[1:18:00]in a bathroom in a bedroom
[1:18:02]in any private area of a home
[1:18:05]in a room where there were massages given.
[1:18:08]Inappropriate I would say
[1:18:10]I would define appropriate surveillance
[1:18:14]to be the front door of a house
[1:18:16]or potentially as in 71st street
[1:18:20]the physical plant
[1:18:24]anywhere else would be grotesque.
[1:18:28]So I just want to come back to
[1:18:30]I know I'm just hopefully saying the obvious
[1:18:32]but when you say the houses
[1:18:34]you're talking about his New York brownstone.
[1:18:39]Yes.
[1:18:40]You're talking about the island in the Caribbean.
[1:18:44]Yes.
[1:18:45]You're talking about the residence in Palm Beach.
[1:18:48]Yes.
[1:18:48]And you're talking about the ranch in New Mexico.
[1:18:51]Yes.
[1:18:51]Anywhere else.
[1:18:52]Paris.
[1:18:53]And in Paris.
[1:18:54]And so.
[1:18:55]And plane I saw some ridiculous thing
[1:18:57]with a plane that was what might do.
[1:18:59]Yes.
[1:18:59]I didn't I didn't hire any electrician on the plane.
[1:19:01]So unequivocally from what you know
[1:19:04]and you only know what you know.
[1:19:06]I only know what I know.
[1:19:07]But from what you know you do not believe
[1:19:10]a camera exists or a video camera
[1:19:13]or a camera that takes pictures
[1:19:17]inside any of his residences.
[1:19:20]Correct.
[1:19:21]So even the appropriate cameras
[1:19:23]that you just talked about
[1:19:24]which would be kind of exterior security cameras.
[1:19:27]Did you know whether there was any cameras
[1:19:29]that you're aware of inside any of the locations.
[1:19:33]Never with one exception.
[1:19:35]Okay.
[1:19:35]What's the exception.
[1:19:36]The exception is Palm Beach.
[1:19:38]Okay.
[1:19:38]And the reason so in Palm Beach
[1:19:41]Epstein was having money stolen.
[1:19:43]He noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase
[1:19:47]or his briefcase.
[1:19:49]And he called in the Palm Beach police
[1:19:56]and they the Palm Beach police installed cameras
[1:20:00]on where he kept his briefcase.
[1:20:03]Where was that.
[1:20:04]Do you remember.
[1:20:05]At his desk in.
[1:20:06]So the house on the ground floor
[1:20:11]was he had a desk sort of in a corner.
[1:20:16]There was that camera.
[1:20:17]I think there was another camera.
[1:20:19]I think there were two or maybe three cameras.
[1:20:21]I believe only on the ground floor
[1:20:23]wherever he may have had.
[1:20:24]Maybe he had another office in the cabana
[1:20:26]there may be a camera there.
[1:20:27]When was this.
[1:20:29]I'm not looking for an exact date
[1:20:30]but what time period are you thinking about
[1:20:32]when you said 2003.
[1:20:35]I think I can date it for you precisely actually.
[1:20:37]2003 and pretty firm on the date.
[1:20:40]And I can be firm because John Alessi
[1:20:42]the butler was fired in the end of 2002
[1:20:48]and he was the thief.
[1:20:51]So aside from law enforcement
[1:20:54]installing a camera to try to catch
[1:20:56]somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein
[1:20:59]you're not aware of any cameras at the island.
[1:21:06]No.
[1:21:07]Sorry just so we record.
[1:21:09]I'm sorry that's OK.
[1:21:11]You were not in your head.
[1:21:12]No.
[1:21:13]So what about cameras anywhere outside
[1:21:17]of possibly things that I would consider myself
[1:21:20]I would consider normal.
[1:21:21]So the garage gate something like that
[1:21:25]a front door outside like security cameras.
[1:21:28]There were cameras inside in the 71st street
[1:21:32]that did the plant the physical plant
[1:21:34]because it was a commercial building.
[1:21:36]So you had the whole that's a real thing
[1:21:38]that's a commercial building.
[1:21:40]And there were cameras there was one camera
[1:21:42]on the on the front door internal from the internal
[1:21:44]that did the front door as I recall.
[1:21:47]But there were no other cameras inside the house.
[1:21:50]Did you ever how about photographs
[1:21:53]did you ever observe Mr. Epstein
[1:21:57]or anybody around him take pictures of anybody
[1:22:01]in compromising positions with women
[1:22:04]or with or with anybody.
[1:22:08]Did you ever hear when you were president
[1:22:11]for conversations Mr. Epstein was having
[1:22:13]or others were having anybody accused him
[1:22:16]of blackmailing them
[1:22:19]or of trying to extort them
[1:22:22]because of something Mr. Epstein knew.
[1:22:24]No.
[1:22:27]There have been and you
[1:22:31]you in the discovery you got in the New York case.
[1:22:36]Yes.
[1:22:38]And in the civil cases that you've been part of
[1:22:43]associated with Mr. Epstein
[1:22:45]have you ever been given
[1:22:47]or been ever been told that video exists
[1:22:51]like what we're talking about
[1:22:53]or photos were taken that that were compromising.
[1:22:56]So in the in both of those
[1:22:59]I received no pictures or anything from the civil case
[1:23:02]but in the criminal case I received videos
[1:23:06]of Epstein talking to women and stuff like that.
[1:23:10]I did get those.
[1:23:11]I also saw binders photographs of women
[1:23:18]in to town.
[1:23:18]I never saw any I don't know how old
[1:23:21]some of these women were.
[1:23:22]There were definitely some of the victims from Palm Beach
[1:23:26]the photographs of them in.
[1:23:31]In those photographs were the victims that were photographed
[1:23:36]were there any of the people you've talked about
[1:23:39]like were there men with the victims
[1:23:41]or were they just photographs of the victims.
[1:23:44]There was no men with these pictures.
[1:23:48]There was no client of his with those pictures.
[1:23:51]They would be standalone for want of a better word
[1:23:57]like modeling shots.
[1:23:58]If you were if you if you were pictures
[1:24:03]that Epstein had with the girls
[1:24:05]but not Epstein with the clients and the girls.
[1:24:07]Correct.
[1:24:08]Did you I understand you said you got those
[1:24:12]in the discovery.
[1:24:16]Did you know those those pictures
[1:24:18]pictures like that existed.
[1:24:20]So right now I'm talking about photographs of victims
[1:24:24]or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein had
[1:24:29]on his computer or wherever he had them.
[1:24:30]Did you know that those photos existed
[1:24:32]before you got them in discovery.
[1:24:35]Some of them absolutely because they were in his house.
[1:24:38]Some of these pictures were on his credenza or whatever.
[1:24:46]Some pictures I simply never seen before.
[1:24:48]I mean there was I never seen some of them.
[1:24:51]Some of them I had some of them I hadn't.
[1:24:53]I mean did you.
[1:24:56]So you're right.
[1:24:57]And I accept that having video or photographs
[1:25:01]of somebody famous or powerful
[1:25:04]in a compromising position would be good blackmail.
[1:25:08]But so separate putting aside what you've said
[1:25:11]about the fact that you don't know
[1:25:14]of any existence of those.
[1:25:17]Did you observe over the years
[1:25:20]the folks we're talking about or others
[1:25:22]which we can talk about getting massages from young women.
[1:25:27]So I just I think it's really helpful
[1:25:31]to understand a few things that has been missed
[1:25:34]in this whole Michigan.
[1:25:38]That's a technical term.
[1:25:41]I'll look it up later.
[1:25:42]Go ahead.
[1:25:46]I thought about this obviously a lot
[1:25:48]and I've given it some.
[1:25:49]So this is the benefit of some benefit of what I saw
[1:25:54]and some benefit of what I now think.
[1:25:56]So just for clarity's sake I think
[1:26:01]I just want to say for the record
[1:26:02]that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of not all
[1:26:06]but some of what he's accused of
[1:26:08]and I'm not here to defend him in any respect.
[1:26:11]I don't want to and I don't think he requires
[1:26:13]nor deserves any type of protection
[1:26:16]or for me in any way to sugarcoat
[1:26:19]what he did or didn't do.
[1:26:21]So there's that.
[1:26:22]However, the man I met and the man he became
[1:26:33]I believe that there is a progression
[1:26:37]and I don't think that the man I met
[1:26:41]is the man that he became.
[1:26:43]I believe he became that man over a period of time.
[1:26:46]Now we can discuss anything you want
[1:26:49]and I'll tell you everything I know
[1:26:51]but I think somebody who has an interest
[1:26:59]however you define that in underage people
[1:27:02]is obviously someone who is unwell
[1:27:05]but I don't think that you wake up one day
[1:27:08]and you start doing what he's accused of.
[1:27:11]I think this is something that you develop
[1:27:16]or you progress to I think because
[1:27:21]Glenn before you get into all that
[1:27:23]let's answer the top line question.
[1:27:26]Okay the top line question is
[1:27:28]Did you ever see any of these people with underage?
[1:27:30]No no so the reason I'm saying that
[1:27:33]is not to avoid that question
[1:27:35]but it's because by the time
[1:27:36]when you're talking in the 90s
[1:27:39]I don't think he was there.
[1:27:42]This description I think that this
[1:27:46]what you're talking about is a later version.
[1:27:48]Yeah and no I understand that
[1:27:50]and I do want to talk I'm not.
[1:27:52]So it's just I think you need to separate
[1:27:54]the periods of time because it this
[1:27:57]one of the things that was definitely
[1:27:58]missing in my trial and definitely
[1:28:00]missing from the narrative is this notion
[1:28:03]this everything happened and he was always
[1:28:05]but no I don't believe that to be true.
[1:28:07]So that's fine and I do want to talk
[1:28:10]about that I'm not pushing that away
[1:28:14]I'm just putting it aside for a moment.
[1:28:16]What Mr. Epstein did and frankly
[1:28:19]what you did or are accused of doing
[1:28:23]is one thing that we'll talk about
[1:28:25]but what right now what I want to
[1:28:26]understand is whether
[1:28:31]one of the ways that Mr. Epstein
[1:28:34]befriended his clients or took care of
[1:28:36]them or some would say blackmailed them
[1:28:39]was by encouraging them to have
[1:28:42]to interact with with women underage or not.
[1:28:46]So I think in the 90s he may
[1:28:48]have encouraged them but these were
[1:28:49]people who were in their 20s or 30s.
[1:28:52]So he would have a masseuse right
[1:28:55]and he did male and female by the way
[1:28:58]in the 90s it's never been discussed
[1:29:00]both in yoga and everything there were
[1:29:02]men as well as women and so if you
[1:29:04]would travel and I can show them to
[1:29:05]you I highlighted them on the flight
[1:29:08]record so you could see that there
[1:29:09]really were men that were also there.
[1:29:12]He would say would you like to do
[1:29:13]yoga with Tito or would you like a
[1:29:15]massage with this one but they would be
[1:29:19]in their late 20s and professional
[1:29:21]masseuses so I think there's a
[1:29:24]distinction and I want to talk about
[1:29:26]actual individuals here but and I
[1:29:27]understand the distinction between
[1:29:28]somebody who's an adult and someone
[1:29:31]who's underage but even with somebody
[1:29:34]who's an adult did you know Mr.
[1:29:36]Epstein to encourage folks to do that
[1:29:40]whether it's a client or somebody
[1:29:42]else with it I certainly witnessed
[1:29:44]him so if you were staying with him
[1:29:46]and you had a massage that he
[1:29:48]would often travel with a masseuse
[1:29:50]he would say hey would you like a
[1:29:51]massage and he did do that yes.
[1:29:54]But would you or him or anybody else
[1:29:56]follow up with the masseuse afterwards
[1:29:58]to find out if there was any
[1:30:00]inappropriate sexual concept?
[1:30:02]I never did no.
[1:30:03]So meaning and then coming back to the
[1:30:04]blackmail issue there's nothing wrong
[1:30:06]with getting a massage of course not
[1:30:08]especially you know especially if
[1:30:11]somebody's obviously an adult masseuse
[1:30:13]I'm not quibbling with that my
[1:30:15]question is that there's a lot of
[1:30:17]accusations that the one of the way
[1:30:18]Mr. Maxwell I'm sorry Mr. Epstein was
[1:30:20]successful was through this idea of
[1:30:23]blackmail and yes young women
[1:30:26]and is a crime children are is a crime
[1:30:29]but even women over the age of 18
[1:30:32]if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men
[1:30:36]or whomever to get massages
[1:30:38]and have inappropriate sexual contact
[1:30:40]with the masseuses that's a
[1:30:42]separate issue maybe slightly nuanced
[1:30:45]but did you ever know him to do that?
[1:30:48]I never did absolutely myself
[1:30:50]I never heard him ask someone
[1:30:52]I never I never heard that
[1:30:54]I never no one in the entire time
[1:30:57]I was with him or friends with him
[1:30:58]or had anyone no one ever reported to
[1:31:00]me or came to me and said that
[1:31:03]anything inappropriate happened or was
[1:31:05]upset but I never saw tear I never
[1:31:06]saw ever any of that
[1:31:09]and when you say no one reports me
[1:31:11]meaning like the masseuses
[1:31:13]or any of the house staff
[1:31:15]or the clients
[1:31:16]or the clients themselves
[1:31:17]never so so let's again I want to stay
[1:31:28]and coming back now to what you were
[1:31:30]talking about a moment ago with Mr.
[1:31:31]Epstein's kind of progression
[1:31:33]or or or getting worse just staying
[1:31:36]within the 90s what role what did
[1:31:40]what role did you have or what did
[1:31:42]you observe which are two different
[1:31:44]issues but both important
[1:31:46]with respect to recruiting
[1:31:47]masseuses to come to either
[1:31:51]Palm Beach or to travel or eventually
[1:31:54]New Mexico what role did you have in
[1:31:56]that he asked me to find
[1:31:57]masseuses for him said again he
[1:31:59]asked me if I could find him
[1:32:01]okay like as part of like you said
[1:32:04]you were as general mattress as part
[1:32:05]of all your your duties that was one
[1:32:07]and I did do that so the first
[1:32:10]person I believe that I introduced
[1:32:13]him to as a masseuse was somebody
[1:32:14]called she was I don't know
[1:32:19]late 20s professional masseuse
[1:32:23]was this something that happened early
[1:32:24]on in your relationship or
[1:32:26]and again I know we're talking about
[1:32:27]the 90s but are we talking about
[1:32:29]early 90s or is this later on
[1:32:31]so um in terms of massage I am a um
[1:32:36]I have a lot of injuries I do a lot
[1:32:38]of dangerous sports and um have had
[1:32:44]multiple serious accidents and
[1:32:47]walk without any lameness because
[1:32:51]of physical therapy and massage I've
[1:32:54]got to me is a very it's medicinal
[1:32:59]for me so Epstein whatever his
[1:33:04]massage situation or whatever he
[1:33:06]loved massage and if I met
[1:33:08]somebody who I thought was a good
[1:33:09]masseuse or masseur I introduced them
[1:33:13]and he because I got them and he
[1:33:14]asked me if I did and I said yes
[1:33:15]and that's I'm pretty sure that
[1:33:18]would have well I can remember
[1:33:21]93 92 from the beginning so so go
[1:33:27]ahead so then what happens over the
[1:33:29]next you know like there's been
[1:33:32]there's a ton of writing and a ton
[1:33:34]of I guess testimony as well but
[1:33:36]also um public reporting about how
[1:33:39]the recruiting was a very
[1:33:41]aggressive effort that you were part
[1:33:43]of that he was a part of and
[1:33:44]others to try to find more and more
[1:33:47]masseuses what is that is that true
[1:33:49]and what role did you have in um
[1:33:53]that is partially true okay so it is
[1:33:56]true that I found masseuses and he
[1:33:59]became more insistent he he like knew
[1:34:05]all the time he got bored so he
[1:34:08]would be bored with that masseuse
[1:34:10]and he would say find me a new
[1:34:11]masseuse I am the entire opposite
[1:34:14]if I find someone that I like I
[1:34:16]stay with them I'm like I don't want
[1:34:18]you he would drive for new so that is
[1:34:21]true and in my effort to find them I
[1:34:24]would go to massage spas like
[1:34:28]legitimate spas not we're not talking
[1:34:31]you know funky ones and I if I got a
[1:34:35]massage from somebody in a spa that
[1:34:38]was I liked I liked I asked him if
[1:34:41]they would do home visits if they
[1:34:42]said yes I would ask them to come to
[1:34:44]the house and he would see if he
[1:34:46]liked them or not but these were
[1:34:48]people who worked in spas I never ever
[1:34:50]checked their age and I never checked
[1:34:52]their credentials I never asked for a
[1:34:54]certificate what um but just to be
[1:34:56]clear you never thought anybody was
[1:34:58]underage I never crossed I never no
[1:34:59]that was never my that was never a
[1:35:01]drive what um what did you know at
[1:35:07]the time about him Mr Epstein
[1:35:11]requiring masseuses to be naked or
[1:35:14]requiring masseuses to um either perform
[1:35:18]sexual favors for Mr Epstein or to be
[1:35:20]there if Mr Epstein masturbated or
[1:35:22]things like that and again I'm asking
[1:35:24]you about a 15 year period or
[1:35:26]whatever 10 year period so I
[1:35:28]appreciate it's a very broad question
[1:35:29]so answer it in a way that you
[1:35:31]know addresses what you've been
[1:35:33]charged with doing but also what's
[1:35:34]been said about you okay so I don't
[1:35:37]the 90s I don't think that I ever
[1:35:39]thought that never would cross my
[1:35:41]mind um I'm not sure that I thought
[1:35:44]about that in those contexts at all
[1:35:46]until uh his arrest and those papers
[1:35:49]came out but I believe the the um
[1:35:54]subject of the question that you're
[1:35:56]asking me I believe started in the
[1:35:59]2000 so in the 2000 time period yeah
[1:36:03]2000 why do you why do you think
[1:36:05]like what what in your mind makes
[1:36:06]you think that that's the time that
[1:36:08]it started um I think because in uh
[1:36:11]December of 2001 he met and I think
[1:36:19]was um responsible for that in its
[1:36:28]entirety and the reason I believe
[1:36:30]that so this she she was a um self
[1:36:35]confessed uh having been uh sexually
[1:36:39]abused as a young girl and was
[1:36:42]trained her words I'm quoting now not
[1:36:45]mine um in all the arts of whatever
[1:36:51]that is sex program by a man called
[1:36:59]Ron Appinger who was her pimp from
[1:37:02]when she was 14 or 15 I don't know
[1:37:05]and in her book describes him training
[1:37:08]her to be what every man wants in all
[1:37:12]its manners fellatio and everything
[1:37:17]else I believe that then what
[1:37:20]happened was that he met her and
[1:37:23]she came as a masseuse to his house
[1:37:25]in December of 2001 is when I think
[1:37:30]it started now what their relationship
[1:37:33]was on what happened with them in
[1:37:37]that early period of time I cannot say
[1:37:40]what I can say is that he liked her
[1:37:43]and she started to travel with him at
[1:37:45]that time period I believe I know
[1:37:48]then what happened was that she
[1:37:51]when she first started to see him um
[1:37:54]or first came into his orbit as his
[1:37:57]masseuse or whatever she was uh
[1:38:00]engaged to be married and wearing an
[1:38:02]engagement ring and was living with
[1:38:03]her fiance she broke up
[1:38:07]after a few months with her fiance
[1:38:11]and took up with the local drug dealer
[1:38:14]so let's say after four or five
[1:38:17]months of in the time period when she
[1:38:19]was seeing Epstein let's say we're
[1:38:22]now
[1:38:24]May June of 2002 or so I'm good
[1:38:29]from whenever she hits the whatever
[1:38:32]that is if that's 2000 I think it's
[1:38:34]2000 I'm sorry I think it's when she
[1:38:36]met him December of 2000 so
[1:38:39]so then you go through I don't remember
[1:38:42]you'll have to look
[1:38:43]okay um I'm not holding you to the
[1:38:46]exact date no I mean I'm just trying
[1:38:47]to I'm giving the so then I think um
[1:38:50]so she she takes up with the local
[1:38:52]drug dealer and she becomes
[1:38:57]druggy druggy like we know how
[1:39:00]druggies
[1:39:00]well maybe don't I live with a lot
[1:39:03]in Tallahassee they become even more
[1:39:07]unreliable than normal
[1:39:10]and at some point she's now working
[1:39:12]somewhere else he stops seeing her
[1:39:14]because he doesn't like people who do
[1:39:15]drugs
[1:39:18]and I think that not seeing her
[1:39:20]lasted five or six months and in that
[1:39:21]period of time
[1:39:22]she got arrested for um
[1:39:26]theft and she had a warrant out for
[1:39:28]her arrest
[1:39:31]now they have pieced together because
[1:39:32]this piece I didn't know
[1:39:34]she then
[1:39:38]called XT to have help avoiding
[1:39:41]the warrant for her arrest
[1:39:45]and he sent her to Thailand to get a
[1:39:51]massage therapy license this is the
[1:39:54]bit that I guess
[1:39:55]this is the bit that I extrapolated
[1:39:57]in the period of time from when she
[1:39:59]came back to when she left
[1:40:01]he asked her to replace herself as
[1:40:04]his
[1:40:04]masseuse or whatever whatever she was
[1:40:07]doing
[1:40:08]and she brought the first replacement
[1:40:11]for her
[1:40:12]that would have been one of the
[1:40:16]accusers in my case I think would
[1:40:18]have been
[1:40:19]and that and then everyone who came
[1:40:22]subsequent
[1:40:24]simultaneously if she wasn't the first
[1:40:26]I don't know
[1:40:27]everyone every single person who came
[1:40:31]to his house came through
[1:40:34]and her boyfriend Tony and then
[1:40:36]whoever else underneath her and that is
[1:40:38]how it started
[1:40:39]so before her
[1:40:41]Johnny Figueroa Tony Figueroa is her
[1:40:43]boyfriend
[1:40:44]before her so now going back into the
[1:40:47]90s
[1:40:49]you don't believe that Mr Epstein
[1:40:55]was
[1:40:56]abusing um masseuses
[1:40:59]underage or overage I mean I think
[1:41:03]well I'm using abuse in the
[1:41:04]broadest sense of word because
[1:41:06]I'm assuming that you you you you said
[1:41:09]that you have no idea over the years
[1:41:10]you you always assumed the masseuses
[1:41:13]were over age right
[1:41:14]so when I'm talking about abuse I'm
[1:41:15]even talking about an adult masseuse
[1:41:17]comes in to give a massage and is
[1:41:19]told to take off their clothes told
[1:41:20]they're not going to get paid if
[1:41:21]they don't keep their clothes
[1:41:23]basically suggests that they had to
[1:41:24]watch him masturbate like the things
[1:41:26]that have been publicly said about
[1:41:27]what he did
[1:41:28]I know for now I'm not I'm not
[1:41:29]distinguishing adults or
[1:41:31]or young or underage women for that
[1:41:33]I'm going to think that that would
[1:41:34]have been a habit
[1:41:35]okay I'm going to say that the massage
[1:41:38]game was a habit
[1:41:41]what does that mean that means that
[1:41:45]I'm sure that he didn't suddenly start
[1:41:47]having relations with masseuses in
[1:41:49]2002
[1:41:50]okay I am sure he must have had
[1:41:52]relations with masseuses
[1:41:54]who knows when but you're saying as
[1:41:56]far as you I use the word abuse
[1:41:58]you're saying that as far as you sit
[1:42:01]here today
[1:42:02]you would describe that more as
[1:42:03]consensual meaning the masseuse
[1:42:06]did those did this willingly
[1:42:09]I I saw him with lots of masseuses
[1:42:12]I never saw a single masseuse ever
[1:42:16]look unhappy or not come back or
[1:42:18]whatever so
[1:42:19]based on my observation I don't think
[1:42:23]that if you are being raped as now
[1:42:28]he's like this prolific
[1:42:29]I just can't imagine why you would
[1:42:32]return what you observed at the
[1:42:33]time
[1:42:34]not what I observed at the time
[1:42:37]I want to we're going to spend a
[1:42:38]little we're going to spend more time
[1:42:39]on
[1:42:40]this issue because I think it's
[1:42:42]important
[1:42:44]but just going back to kind of the
[1:42:47]question
[1:42:48]that I started with in this area
[1:42:50]which is that it ties into the
[1:42:52]blackmail issue so we talked about
[1:42:55]people that were his clients
[1:42:57]and you've mentioned President
[1:43:01]Clinton
[1:43:02]and then early on oh I never said
[1:43:03]he was a client I did not say you
[1:43:05]said I'm saying you talk about his
[1:43:06]clients
[1:43:06]okay right puts his clients off the
[1:43:08]side and then you mentioned some other
[1:43:10]people you mentioned President Clinton
[1:43:11]you mentioned
[1:43:11]um President Trump early on who were
[1:43:15]other
[1:43:16]famous slash politicians who were other
[1:43:20]individuals
[1:43:20]in Mr Epstein's life during that
[1:43:24]time period so the early 90s
[1:43:26]the 90s that's should we just yes
[1:43:28]okay
[1:43:28]Congressman McMillan say it again
[1:43:30]McMillan
[1:43:32]okay um Henry Rizovsky who was the
[1:43:35]provost of Harvard
[1:43:38]right opening sure you're looking at
[1:43:40]your your notes
[1:43:41]go ahead go ahead um Joe Pagano
[1:43:45]Jerry Goldsmith Joe Roberts Kenny
[1:43:48]Lipper
[1:43:50]Dan Abramson uh
[1:43:53]I don't know if in the 90s Tom
[1:43:55]Pritzker
[1:43:56]Ace Jimmy Kane Lou Raniere I mean
[1:43:59]they were
[1:44:00]what about the royal family no he
[1:44:03]didn't know them in the 90s
[1:44:04]what about the the um what about Prince
[1:44:07]Andrew
[1:44:08]didn't know him in the 90s um when
[1:44:11]well
[1:44:12]is that right I wouldn't get there I
[1:44:14]do not know
[1:44:19]so I don't want you to have to
[1:44:21]worry about exact dates you're
[1:44:22]you're not positive about that but
[1:44:23]you don't have a specific
[1:44:24]recollection of that being in the
[1:44:25]90s
[1:44:26]yeah okay I can I can date it for
[1:44:29]you
[1:44:29]I think but I can't give you that's
[1:44:32]okay that's fine um
[1:44:33]so with respect to just and we'll take a
[1:44:36]break in a minute to get some
[1:44:37]food um but just with respect to Mr
[1:44:41]with respect to the individuals you
[1:44:43]just talked about so again focus on the
[1:44:44]90s and so the people that I'm
[1:44:46]talking about right now and we might
[1:44:47]add some names
[1:44:49]later so we're talking about the
[1:44:50]clients that you work with
[1:44:52]which you've mentioned several of and
[1:44:53]I know that that wasn't exhaustive
[1:44:55]but you've mentioned several of them
[1:44:57]and then the the kind of what I
[1:44:59]called famous friends but
[1:45:01]the prominent individuals that were in
[1:45:02]his life in the 90s um
[1:45:05]did did does any stick out in your
[1:45:08]mind as having received
[1:45:10]massages all of them Henry Rizovsky
[1:45:12]received a massage
[1:45:13]and then why do you why does that
[1:45:15]stick out in your memory
[1:45:16]because um I saw him in a bathrobe
[1:45:20]at 71st street and he had received a
[1:45:23]massage he told me
[1:45:24]and do you know whether that what
[1:45:26]there was any
[1:45:27]whether the masseuse was naked during
[1:45:29]that massage
[1:45:30]I wouldn't have any idea do you know
[1:45:31]whether I doubted he was like in his
[1:45:33]80s I doubted he was like in his 80s
[1:45:35]okay so but do you know not what's
[1:45:37]in his age
[1:45:37]Minsky have Minsky
[1:45:40]say that again Minsky was another
[1:45:42]person
[1:45:43]do you know whether for example
[1:45:44]President Clinton never received a
[1:45:45]massage
[1:45:46]I don't believe he did and what
[1:45:48]makes you say you don't believe he
[1:45:49]did
[1:45:49]well because I don't so that's a
[1:45:52]good question
[1:45:55]uh the time that Epstein and
[1:45:58]President Clinton spent together the
[1:46:00]only times I believe
[1:46:01]well obviously they traveled
[1:46:03]that there was that you know they
[1:46:04]claimed they went on the plane 26
[1:46:06]times or whatever
[1:46:06]that would be one journey so they
[1:46:08]spent time on the plane together
[1:46:10]and I don't believe there was ever a
[1:46:11]massage on the plane
[1:46:13]so that would have been the only
[1:46:14]time that I think that President
[1:46:16]Clinton could have even
[1:46:17]received a massage and he didn't
[1:46:19]because I was there
[1:46:21]and you mentioned that early in the
[1:46:24]very beginning of the conversation you
[1:46:25]mentioned President Trump
[1:46:27]in the early 90s yes well what's what
[1:46:29]did you observe
[1:46:30]as far as President Trump and his
[1:46:33]relationship with you or Mr Epstein
[1:46:35]well I just want to say for my
[1:46:38]relationship with President Trump
[1:46:40]relationships are big work but I just
[1:46:42]want to say that I met him or
[1:46:43]I believe I may have because of my
[1:46:45]father in the 90s
[1:46:47]okay so my father liked him very
[1:46:49]much
[1:46:50]and he was really liked his
[1:46:52]wife as well because they were both
[1:46:54]Czechoslovakian
[1:46:55]and as far as I'm concerned President
[1:46:58]Trump was always
[1:46:59]very cordial and very kind to me and
[1:47:03]I just want to say that I find I
[1:47:05]admire
[1:47:06]his extraordinary achievement in
[1:47:10]becoming the President now and I like
[1:47:12]him
[1:47:13]and I've always liked him so that
[1:47:15]is the sum and substance of my
[1:47:16]entire relationship
[1:47:18]what about Mr Epstein's relationship
[1:47:20]with him
[1:47:21]I don't know how they met and I
[1:47:22]don't know how they became friends I
[1:47:24]certainly saw them together
[1:47:25]and I remember the few times I observed
[1:47:28]them together that they were friendly
[1:47:30]I mean was that in social settings or
[1:47:32]was that in private settings
[1:47:34]I believe I only ever saw them in
[1:47:36]social settings I don't recall any
[1:47:37]private settings
[1:47:38]did you ever have you ever been to
[1:47:41]Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach I have um
[1:47:44]in what
[1:47:45]time period are you thinking about
[1:47:46]when you say yes
[1:47:48]I don't remember when the President
[1:47:51]purchased Mar-a-Lago so from whenever
[1:47:53]it turned into a club
[1:47:55]I went there and um I was
[1:47:59]loved going there did you did you go
[1:48:01]there alone or with Mr Epstein
[1:48:03]mostly alone many times I went there
[1:48:05]I was for an event maybe once or
[1:48:07]twice
[1:48:08]and do you know whether Mr Epstein
[1:48:09]ever went there I I believe he did but
[1:48:12]again we really were
[1:48:18]he he didn't take me with him all
[1:48:22]the time so he would go and
[1:48:27]he never I never well he did from time
[1:48:30]to time but
[1:48:31]he would go alone I think he would
[1:48:32]maybe go himself to the spa
[1:48:34]I certainly did did you ever observe
[1:48:37]um President Trump
[1:48:38]receive a massage never um
[1:48:41]did you ever observe you said that
[1:48:44]you
[1:48:45]you were I mean have you seen the
[1:48:47]there's photographs
[1:48:49]public photographs of Mr Epstein
[1:48:52]and President Trump together yes
[1:48:55]and there's photographs of I think
[1:48:57]you're you're in some of the
[1:48:58]photographs yeah as well um
[1:49:00]those all appear to be social
[1:49:01]settings yes um that's you
[1:49:03]that's my memory if there was social
[1:49:05]settings I don't know
[1:49:06]Epstein's if he had whatever the
[1:49:09]nature of the President's
[1:49:13]friendship if you will however you
[1:49:15]want to define that with Epstein I
[1:49:16]was never witness I think they were
[1:49:19]friendly like people are in social
[1:49:20]settings I don't
[1:49:23]think they were close friends or
[1:49:25]I certainly never witnessed the
[1:49:28]President in any of I don't recall ever
[1:49:31]seeing him in his house for
[1:49:33]instance I actually never saw the
[1:49:35]President in any type of massage
[1:49:37]setting I never witnessed the
[1:49:38]President in any inappropriate
[1:49:41]setting in any way the President was
[1:49:43]never inappropriate with anybody
[1:49:46]in the times that I was with him
[1:49:47]he was a gentleman in all respects
[1:49:50]when's the last time you think you
[1:49:51]saw in person President Trump
[1:49:55]um it's it's been a long time
[1:50:00]probably not sometime in the
[1:50:03]two beginning mid-2000s maybe
[1:50:07]and it would only have been a
[1:50:08]social setting as far as I recall
[1:50:11]um and did you ever hear Mr.
[1:50:13]Epstein or anybody say that
[1:50:17]President Trump had done anything
[1:50:19]inappropriate with masseuses or with
[1:50:21]anybody in your world
[1:50:23]absolutely never in any context
[1:50:29]do you know whether masseuses from
[1:50:32]Mar-a-Lago spa ended up giving
[1:50:35]massages to um private massages to
[1:50:39]Mr. Epstein I'm not asking what you
[1:50:41]may have read but from at the time
[1:50:44]from your personal knowledge you
[1:50:45]know whether that's true
[1:50:46]I don't I don't recall is it possible
[1:50:50]yes but I don't remember I don't
[1:50:53]remember that so I don't want to I
[1:50:55]don't recall that but it's possible
[1:50:57]do you have recollection of you ever
[1:50:58]recruiting a masseuse from uh
[1:51:01]Mar-a-Lago spa to give to go give a
[1:51:04]private massage to Mr. Epstein
[1:51:05]I've never recruited a masseuse from
[1:51:07]Mar-a-Lago for that as far as I
[1:51:10]remember I can't ever recollect it
[1:51:12]um okay so what what I think we
[1:51:15]should do now it's about 12 15
[1:51:17]we'll take a we'll take a break um and
[1:51:20]we will come back in a little bit
[1:51:23]okay okay good afternoon we are
[1:51:29]continuing the recorded
[1:51:31]proffer interview of Miss Maxwell the
[1:51:34]time is 12 59 Thursday July 24th
[1:51:42]um okay so just continuing to talk
[1:51:45]about Miss Maxwell um
[1:51:51]still focused on the 90s time period
[1:51:53]with understanding that could spill
[1:51:54]over in the early 2000s but still
[1:51:56]that part of your of your life with
[1:51:58]Mr. Epstein um there's been
[1:52:05]public reporting about conduct
[1:52:08]by Mr. Epstein and others at Little
[1:52:11]St. James yes um so can you talk
[1:52:14]about um the frequency with which you
[1:52:19]went there um and address
[1:52:23]some of those um some of the
[1:52:26]reporting namely around young masseuses
[1:52:29]or young women who would be present
[1:52:31]and um what you observed relating to
[1:52:35]them and then I'll ask questions
[1:52:37]around that so if I'm right he
[1:52:40]purchased the island in 1996
[1:52:42]and he was friendly with the owners
[1:52:45]and originally we went to the island
[1:52:48]as guests of the owners and then I
[1:52:51]guess at some point the owners told
[1:52:53]them he they wanted to sell and he
[1:52:55]decided to purchase it
[1:52:58]so um the island was very rustic
[1:53:02]I loved it of course that completely
[1:53:04]different ideas
[1:53:06]and um I would say there was none
[1:53:09]of what you were describing at that
[1:53:12]early period of time so
[1:53:14]the frequency was was often often on
[1:53:17]the island because um
[1:53:21]he loved it he really really loved
[1:53:23]it um and
[1:53:24]we we would go all the time
[1:53:28]mostly all the early phase was
[1:53:31]based on improvements that could be
[1:53:34]made on the island
[1:53:36]always going with new architects
[1:53:40]new designers new construction people
[1:53:43]I'd say the first two years
[1:53:46]almost every trip not everyone but
[1:53:49]almost every trip
[1:53:50]contained some an individual who would
[1:53:53]be
[1:53:54]brought on board to have an opinion as
[1:53:57]to how to
[1:53:58]um I don't want to use the word
[1:54:02]improve the island because I don't
[1:54:03]think you could improve it but to
[1:54:04]uh I can't think what the word would
[1:54:06]be to um
[1:54:15]develop it sorry that's the word
[1:54:16]okay
[1:54:17]develop talent develop the island
[1:54:19]that's the one
[1:54:20]so so there were trips constant
[1:54:22]trips with that in mind
[1:54:24]and I would say now if we're moving
[1:54:26]to the late 90s 96 97
[1:54:29]I definitely witnessed a
[1:54:30]progression in Mr Epstein's behavior
[1:54:34]and a
[1:54:37]a modification if you will where
[1:54:40]in in the past in the early 90s
[1:54:43]I don't remember traveling so much with
[1:54:45]other people would there be a masseuse
[1:54:47]or a yoga person but now he started
[1:54:49]to travel with
[1:54:51]more always a masseuse whereas in
[1:54:53]the past it wasn't always a masseuse
[1:54:54]always an instructor there was now
[1:54:56]starting to be
[1:54:57]always an individual or a friend or
[1:55:00]whatever there's always a
[1:55:02]like maybe the word would be entourage
[1:55:08]um but these were always
[1:55:14]people in their 20s late 20s
[1:55:17]early 30s in my as my memory sees it
[1:55:20]as I
[1:55:21]as I observed that time
[1:55:24]and um he tasked me with finding a
[1:55:31]local masseuse
[1:55:33]for him in Saint Thomas because
[1:55:35]sometimes even though I say he would
[1:55:37]always travel with an entourage
[1:55:38]sometimes he didn't and he wanted to
[1:55:40]have a massage
[1:55:40]locally so I visited them as the spas
[1:55:44]that were
[1:55:45]local in Saint Thomas in Saint Thomas
[1:55:47]and in Saint John
[1:55:50]and if I met someone a man or a woman
[1:55:52]actually because
[1:55:53]it was difficult to find somebody in
[1:55:55]Saint Thomas it's not exactly
[1:55:57]you know so and I did find a couple
[1:56:00]of people who would come
[1:56:01]so that's how they came because also it
[1:56:03]was a it was a schlep
[1:56:05]so if you had somebody who came it
[1:56:07]would be you'd have to
[1:56:10]you know boat ride and you
[1:56:13]several hours it wasn't just a it's
[1:56:15]not late
[1:56:16]arriving with your massage tape and
[1:56:18]stuff so there was that
[1:56:19]um so I did do that so did over
[1:56:22]the years
[1:56:23]um males also give massages no
[1:56:26]syrup scene
[1:56:26]yes I did say I don't think
[1:56:30]at the beginning definitely and I would
[1:56:32]say towards
[1:56:33]sort of again late 90s
[1:56:36]I don't remember any men they were at
[1:56:39]the beginning I think in that
[1:56:41]towards the late 90s I kind of think
[1:56:43]of any men I only think of women
[1:56:45]did you um you talk about entourage
[1:56:49]flying
[1:56:50]right now we're talking about to the
[1:56:52]island
[1:56:52]um did you observe any sexual
[1:56:58]um I was going to say miscompany sexual
[1:57:01]any sex at all whatsoever on the
[1:57:03]plane
[1:57:04]never
[1:57:07]um was there a part of the plane that
[1:57:10]was closed off from others
[1:57:13]where mr. Epstein could go and get a
[1:57:15]massage
[1:57:16]okay so that's a that's a good
[1:57:18]question so there were two planes
[1:57:20]so you had the there was a gold
[1:57:22]stream
[1:57:23]and that's open plan so
[1:57:27]anything I mean there was a sofa that
[1:57:30]turned into
[1:57:31]a bed I needed sleep on that and then
[1:57:36]but in the bowing which he flew on a
[1:57:38]lot there was
[1:57:39]his area could be closed off with a
[1:57:41]door
[1:57:42]and behind that door there would be
[1:57:44]there was a bedroom
[1:57:46]and an office so if that door was
[1:57:48]shut
[1:57:49]you wouldn't see it but do you so if
[1:57:51]you'd never
[1:57:52]so but you never observed mr. Epstein
[1:57:55]engaging in
[1:57:56]sex or getting a massage with somebody
[1:57:59]with where the masseuse was
[1:58:00]not clothed on the plane um I can't say
[1:58:04]that
[1:58:04]I I might have I definitely might have
[1:58:06]either
[1:58:07]both in the gulf stream or in the uh
[1:58:10]in the
[1:58:11]I'm sure I did but it's not I can't
[1:58:14]that's fair okay um I'm I'm absolutely
[1:58:19]sure I did I must have because
[1:58:21]he was so obsessed with someone
[1:58:22]running his feet or
[1:58:23]just when you ask me about massages
[1:58:25]to be clear I generally what what I
[1:58:28]think of that is somebody on a
[1:58:29]massage table but other people might
[1:58:32]think of it as something different you
[1:58:33]know you could have someone
[1:58:34]rubbing his feet or his shoulder I saw
[1:58:36]that all the time that I did
[1:58:38]but that's separate from being on a
[1:58:40]massage table
[1:58:42]how again I know what we're talking
[1:58:44]about a decade long period
[1:58:46]but during the period we're talking
[1:58:48]about
[1:58:49]um in a seven day week how often
[1:58:51]would mr. Epstein get a massage
[1:58:55]in the 90s when we're talking he would
[1:58:57]get one every day
[1:58:59]I think as that time progressed he
[1:59:02]would get one
[1:59:03]maybe twice a day I do want to say
[1:59:07]that there was
[1:59:07]uh maybe a reason
[1:59:11]that things altered or
[1:59:16]morphed or progressed
[1:59:20]um and um it is
[1:59:23]maybe part of the reason also that I
[1:59:27]he and I
[1:59:29]our relationship or however somebody
[1:59:32]wants to call it
[1:59:33]altered and um
[1:59:38]he started doing testosterone
[1:59:41]and that altered his character and I
[1:59:44]believe that started
[1:59:46]in uh the late 90s
[1:59:50]and um I believe that the FBI has
[1:59:53]his medical records and you may see
[1:59:55]that on his medical records
[1:59:57]so you you believe that he started
[2:00:00]taking
[2:00:01]testosterone in the 90s and when you
[2:00:03]say that altered his behavior
[2:00:05]you're saying it wanted it made him
[2:00:07]get more massages or that was just
[2:00:09]one part of
[2:00:10]of what changed about him well he
[2:00:12]became more aggressive
[2:00:13]nice and I think that
[2:00:17]he may be uh well now I'm just
[2:00:21]imagining that the the testosterone
[2:00:24]altered his
[2:00:26]desires or something
[2:00:30]and so so when
[2:00:34]given what you've said the past couple
[2:00:36]hours about his
[2:00:37]kind of progression or change let's
[2:00:40]focus
[2:00:41]on that time period so the more
[2:00:43]towards the late 90s
[2:00:44]so 96 97 8 you know when you
[2:00:47]when you've said that he changed um
[2:00:49]did you know flat out that he was
[2:00:56]having sex or otherwise um
[2:01:00]some sort of sexual conduct with
[2:01:01]masseuses regularly
[2:01:05]flat out no I denied that I couldn't
[2:01:07]imagine that he would
[2:01:09]but I think looking back now that um
[2:01:15]I did not but I started to suspect
[2:01:18]that he was not
[2:01:20]faithful seems ludicrous but if
[2:01:27]look if if if he's flying
[2:01:31]from Palm Beach to to St. Thomas or if
[2:01:34]he's flying
[2:01:36]all over the country to New Mexico or
[2:01:39]to New York
[2:01:40]or even in Palm Beach and there's young
[2:01:43]women
[2:01:44]putting aside whether they're under the
[2:01:45]age of 18 or in their 20s
[2:01:47]um every day at the house multiple
[2:01:50]masseuses
[2:01:51]multiple massages on some days um you're
[2:01:54]interacting with the masseuses
[2:01:55]constantly um or maybe that's not
[2:01:58]right
[2:01:59]let me take back what I just said more
[2:02:01]of that part but you understand these
[2:02:02]getting massages
[2:02:03]every day sometimes multiple times a day
[2:02:05]the by the late 90s it's all women
[2:02:08]presumably they're um
[2:02:11]some of them are new but they're also
[2:02:13]repeat masseuses
[2:02:15]um what did you I mean you you had
[2:02:18]to know at that point that there
[2:02:19]was something going on beyond just he
[2:02:21]really needed to get massaged
[2:02:24]very fair question there's two things
[2:02:25]the first is the person that he saw
[2:02:27]the most at that period of time was
[2:02:28]in her 40s
[2:02:30]and she was with him all the time
[2:02:33]and I'm like married as well yeah
[2:02:40]and as I'm square and it never
[2:02:46]occurred
[2:02:46]well I don't believe it occurred to me
[2:02:48]at the time
[2:02:49]that with this woman he would be
[2:02:51]having
[2:02:53]relations and he was with her that
[2:02:55]was the person he had the most
[2:02:57]massages
[2:02:57]yoga and that with at that time in
[2:03:00]that 90s period
[2:03:03]the second thing is that um
[2:03:10]because uh he told me he didn't he had
[2:03:14]to fully
[2:03:16]having an erection and I believed him
[2:03:21]when you said he said that you mean
[2:03:23]he regularly told you that like
[2:03:25]when I when I first because when I
[2:03:27]didn't have
[2:03:29]sex with him after the first time and
[2:03:31]it took so I asked him
[2:03:33]was it me and he told me it was
[2:03:36]him
[2:03:39]and I never up until this moment in my
[2:03:44]life
[2:03:44]oh I'm not stupid I'm very bright I've
[2:03:49]had an excellent education
[2:03:50]I traveled all over the world I had
[2:03:52]had boyfriends
[2:03:54]but I had never met or
[2:03:59]understood that somebody could be so
[2:04:02]uh would would lie to me about
[2:04:06]I could it never occurred to me I
[2:04:08]didn't have
[2:04:10]a frame of context within my life
[2:04:11]experience where somebody would be so
[2:04:15]manipulative and devious with me
[2:04:19]I just and plus I just didn't have I
[2:04:21]just
[2:04:22]and I was happy not to have
[2:04:26]sex because I have a condition that
[2:04:30]does doesn't lend itself to that
[2:04:33]does um when you learned so fast
[2:04:36]forward
[2:04:37]just for a moment to the 2007-89 time
[2:04:40]period
[2:04:41]and he's arrested and charged and
[2:04:43]there's all kinds of press around
[2:04:45]his purported contact at that point
[2:04:49]did you at that point did you accept
[2:04:53]that that was true meaning
[2:04:54]did it make sense at that point when
[2:04:55]you're reading about
[2:04:57]um women who claim that they had been
[2:04:59]abused even underage
[2:05:01]and at that point did you think
[2:05:03]yourself well geez that makes sense
[2:05:05]now that I think about it or no
[2:05:06]first of all I didn't that's I only read
[2:05:09]what was in the newspapers I didn't have
[2:05:11]any other thing and
[2:05:12]I'm embarrassed to say it I didn't I
[2:05:14]didn't believe it okay
[2:05:17]right I mean you didn't believe that
[2:05:19]the accusations were true at the time
[2:05:21]yeah um so let's
[2:05:27]and and sorry I need to say even if
[2:05:29]they were true
[2:05:30]I believe that he was duped and he
[2:05:32]didn't know that they were
[2:05:34]whatever was in the papers at that
[2:05:35]time whether they said that they were
[2:05:37]17 or I didn't it didn't register
[2:05:41]because along with all of those well
[2:05:43]not in 2006 but later when
[2:05:46]the more salacious and
[2:05:49]other allegations came out I knew were
[2:05:52]utterly false which then just
[2:05:55]reinforced my belief that the rest
[2:05:57]was not true
[2:05:58]let me ask you a question about the
[2:06:00]age of um
[2:06:02]the masseuses over the years um
[2:06:08]I think in my mind there's a difference
[2:06:11]between you knowing or not knowing
[2:06:14]that a masseuse is under the age of 18
[2:06:17]and coming to give a massage
[2:06:19]and you knowing that a strepsin
[2:06:23]you know sexually abused the underage
[2:06:25]person or
[2:06:27]made her strip or something like that
[2:06:28]meaning um
[2:06:30]and I want to understand whether you
[2:06:32]believe that
[2:06:33]nobody that came to give massages
[2:06:36]none of the women were under 18 or
[2:06:39]that you
[2:06:42]you didn't focus on their age but you
[2:06:45]you were more focused on whether any
[2:06:48]underage woman
[2:06:51]was abused by him I think
[2:06:56]I think it's better to answer this
[2:06:58]question with
[2:06:59]corroborating evidence and then you
[2:07:02]go back and explain so
[2:07:03]I frame you aren't your understanding
[2:07:06]of what I'm saying
[2:07:07]of the my understanding is that in 2000
[2:07:12]let's say 2008 they had interviewed 44
[2:07:16]women let's say
[2:07:19]around that number you have to
[2:07:21]understand not a single one
[2:07:23]of those 44 women mentioned me
[2:07:26]in a single report and it's not
[2:07:28]because
[2:07:33]they didn't mention me in the
[2:07:35]report because they never met me
[2:07:37]they never saw me and they never
[2:07:39]interacted with me
[2:07:41]so to go back to your question it's not
[2:07:44]that I
[2:07:45]thought one way or another it's that I
[2:07:47]didn't see them
[2:07:49]okay I see okay does that
[2:07:52]yeah yeah no that's that's helpful
[2:07:53]so I know and when I say not one
[2:07:56]not one single one of those reports
[2:07:59]talks about me
[2:08:00]and I just want to clarify exactly
[2:08:03]because
[2:08:03]I'm obviously aware that one of those
[2:08:06]girls is was one of the witnesses
[2:08:08]in my trial but specifically to use her
[2:08:17]own testimony so that you don't
[2:08:19]have to hear my point of view it's
[2:08:21]better if it comes from her own words
[2:08:23]and that way there's no
[2:08:27]second guessing with what I'm saying
[2:08:31]herself said that recruited her
[2:08:35]brought her and trained her those are
[2:08:40]own words there was a game of this
[2:08:45]that you were that you didn't know
[2:08:46]I mean I'm sorry sorry sorry sorry
[2:08:51]I really do have some slow cognition
[2:08:54]issues
[2:08:54]um the uh so she says she testifies
[2:08:59]that
[2:08:59]it was that that recruited her and
[2:09:02]trained her and and not you
[2:09:04]so wait so then in her first
[2:09:08]FBI meeting
[2:09:11]she reports seeing a woman with short
[2:09:14]dark hair at the house which then
[2:09:18]is used as evidence that that person
[2:09:21]was myself but the um
[2:09:25]maid lady that who helped keep the
[2:09:28]house
[2:09:29]john's alessi's wife oh and with an
[2:09:32]accent
[2:09:33]I believe she said john alessi's wife
[2:09:37]had short dark hair and an accent I
[2:09:40]am sorry but
[2:09:41]I find and you can ask yourselves this
[2:09:44]I mean I've obviously modified my
[2:09:46]accent I've been in America a long time
[2:09:47]but I'm British
[2:09:49]I've been brought up with a very
[2:09:50]strong British accent
[2:09:52]and I don't believe there's American
[2:09:53]on planet earth that doesn't
[2:09:54]recognize this to be British or
[2:09:56]Australian maybe if you really don't
[2:09:58]know
[2:09:59]but it's not some random accent now
[2:10:01]the Hispanic
[2:10:03]maybe okay that was john's wife that
[2:10:05]she saw
[2:10:06]not me and I'd like to point out
[2:10:08]further how you
[2:10:09]potentially her own through her own
[2:10:12]words
[2:10:13]she identified why don't we why don't we
[2:10:15]stop there
[2:10:16]sorry so okay so it's
[2:10:19]so just look I want to
[2:10:22]I want to try to I think probably
[2:10:25]tomorrow
[2:10:27]will I want to talk more about
[2:10:30]kind of the evidence against you
[2:10:32]and and how to address that so
[2:10:34]no no don't apologize that that's
[2:10:36]so that's helpful but
[2:10:37]I don't I don't want you to be
[2:10:39]burdened I want you to just tell the
[2:10:41]truth the best you can so I don't
[2:10:42]want you to be burdened by what
[2:10:43]people set a trial or what you know the
[2:10:45]press says about you
[2:10:46]I just thought it was illustrative when
[2:10:47]you asked it it was it was it doesn't
[2:10:50]I did not I
[2:10:53]absolutely have no memory at any now
[2:10:57]I'm leaving separate to this
[2:10:59]obviously so that's a separate story
[2:11:01]I'm not going to pretend
[2:11:02]well we'll get to this but but in
[2:11:05]the terms of the
[2:11:07]scheme or whatever however you want
[2:11:09]to determine what you're calling that
[2:11:12]I have no no memory
[2:11:16]no active anything
[2:11:20]of having seen anybody that resembles
[2:11:24]a young child let's call it what it is
[2:11:27]at that house giving him a massage
[2:11:30]at all it's not even like I did this
[2:11:34]it's an at all and 44 people
[2:11:38]didn't see me or talk about me
[2:11:39]either including did did um and and
[2:11:46]when you say that house
[2:11:48]oh sorry Palm Beach do you know
[2:11:50]understand what you mean but
[2:11:51]and I it does the same memory or
[2:11:54]lack that I've applied to
[2:11:56]on planes at at New Mexico and
[2:12:00]New York and well with some other
[2:12:01]important caveats
[2:12:03]well on that um
[2:12:06]but Julian Jane in my trial was
[2:12:09]clearly underage clearly a child and
[2:12:12]I only saw her in Palm Beach
[2:12:15]and I only saw her with her mother
[2:12:18]um the other person was clearly also
[2:12:21]not an adult or even close
[2:12:24]I believe I remember her now but um
[2:12:28]that would be the only two or three
[2:12:30]whatever that is
[2:12:32]so um did you ever know
[2:12:38]Mr Epstein to communicate with
[2:12:41]um FBI agents either like
[2:12:44]intelligence FBI agents like as a source
[2:12:47]or just generally with FBI agents
[2:12:49]no do you think if he had done that
[2:12:52]you would have known like he would
[2:12:54]have told you something like that
[2:12:55]like if I said to you
[2:12:56]um Mr Epstein was a source for the
[2:12:59]FBI
[2:13:00]would you say that's crazy no he
[2:13:03]wasn't or
[2:13:05]maybe he was I would he would have
[2:13:06]told me that anyway
[2:13:08]um back two ounces for that I think
[2:13:13]if he was for real
[2:13:16]I think he would have bragged about it
[2:13:18]to me as a show off because he could be
[2:13:20]a show off
[2:13:22]and if he wasn't he might have
[2:13:28]dropped it like he was cool
[2:13:32]and I don't think I don't remember
[2:13:35]him doing
[2:13:36]either now with again the caveat
[2:13:39]that in his
[2:13:40]before I met him finding money
[2:13:43]I think he may have suggested that
[2:13:46]there were some people who helped him
[2:13:47]but that's the only context that I
[2:13:49]recall that in
[2:13:51]what do you mean by that when you
[2:13:53]said finding money what do you mean
[2:13:54]well his business where he remember I
[2:13:57]told you
[2:13:59]I think in that context he made he
[2:14:02]showed me a photograph that he had
[2:14:04]with some um African warlords or
[2:14:07]something that he told me and
[2:14:10]you know like I don't remember if I
[2:14:13]that's what I interpreted like that
[2:14:16]kind of thing or whether it was
[2:14:18]something like that that's the only
[2:14:20]actual active memory I have of
[2:14:22]something nefarious more than nefarious
[2:14:25]I don't even know if it was nefarious
[2:14:26]but
[2:14:28]covert I suppose would be the word
[2:14:30]and what about any other intelligence
[2:14:32]agency like
[2:14:33]the CIA or defense intelligence or or
[2:14:36]any other
[2:14:37]law enforcement agency I don't I don't
[2:14:46]think so
[2:14:47]I think that I don't remember
[2:14:48]anything like that I just don't think
[2:14:50]he had the
[2:14:52]where we all and I think that whole
[2:14:54]aspect of that is
[2:14:58]can I use a bad word yes yes bullshit
[2:15:02]okay and what do you um you think
[2:15:05]it's bullshit
[2:15:06]meaning um what do you mean
[2:15:12]would you have known if he was would
[2:15:13]he have been bragging to you would
[2:15:15]he have been saying these things
[2:15:16]I think he was because I I think
[2:15:18]I'm sorry I think that um
[2:15:22]I think one of the reasons why he
[2:15:23]liked me was because of my
[2:15:25]you know my family connections and
[2:15:29]why he liked other people was because
[2:15:30]they
[2:15:31]were cool or whatever and I think
[2:15:33]that certainly
[2:15:34]early in when I met him he would
[2:15:36]have tried to impress me
[2:15:38]or try to show off if you will like
[2:15:41]he was
[2:15:42]that guy you know and he wasn't that
[2:15:46]guy
[2:15:48]and so and I think that he would
[2:15:50]have tried to bullshit me
[2:15:51]and he didn't so I think it's did
[2:15:55]he may try to bullshit me but no right
[2:15:57]sorry
[2:15:58]so I want to just shift for a few
[2:16:00]minutes to talk about
[2:16:03]post-2000-2000 to kind of when your
[2:16:05]relationship
[2:16:06]changed over the years with him um
[2:16:09]did there come a time when
[2:16:12]he misrepresented did meet members of
[2:16:14]the royal family
[2:16:15]yes um when was that
[2:16:18]so I need to go back because I
[2:16:20]think I may have
[2:16:21]spoke I didn't misspeak but I something
[2:16:23]that I have forgotten
[2:16:25]before I met Epstein he lived in
[2:16:28]London
[2:16:29]for a period of time I don't know for
[2:16:30]how long and he met
[2:16:32]and knew some truly fancy people
[2:16:35]like people high society people
[2:16:41]that included Princess Diana's best
[2:16:43]friend
[2:16:44]her name was Rosa Monkton and Rosa's
[2:16:47]husband
[2:16:48]Dominic Lawson who's a famous
[2:16:50]journalist actually he's a very
[2:16:51]well-known journalist
[2:16:52]and um when I um and he had
[2:16:59]he was friends with the bearings
[2:17:00]bearings bank and he had
[2:17:02]like sort of that that was
[2:17:05]before he met me before so in the
[2:17:08]80s 80s yes he was dating Eva
[2:17:11]Anderson
[2:17:12]Miss Sweden I think I don't know
[2:17:13]when she became okay so
[2:17:15]earlier when you said that he met
[2:17:18]them later
[2:17:18]yes he may have met some members of
[2:17:21]the royal family or certainly
[2:17:22]British high society he met I don't
[2:17:24]know about the royal family but
[2:17:25]certainly high society
[2:17:26]and the reason why I know this is
[2:17:29]because sometime
[2:17:30]we can this is a document documentable
[2:17:34]I think docu whatever
[2:17:36]there's a photograph that can give
[2:17:38]you the date because I don't
[2:17:39]remember what the date is of this so
[2:17:40]there's something that will peg
[2:17:42]whatever this date is
[2:17:43]I don't remember when that is
[2:17:48]Epstein went to London without it
[2:17:50]often went everywhere without me but
[2:17:52]he was in London without me which
[2:17:54]was decently unusual because London's
[2:17:56]my hometown but anyway he went without
[2:17:57]me
[2:17:58]and he went to a big event in
[2:18:02]I think it was in the park anyway it
[2:18:04]was a big event it's on
[2:18:05]it's on it's on the news it's like
[2:18:07]there's photographs of it and he
[2:18:09]I don't know if he sat with Diana or
[2:18:11]he met Diana or he already met her
[2:18:12]I don't know but this I believe was
[2:18:14]organized by Rosa
[2:18:16]and so there's I don't know if she
[2:18:19]was being set up as a date
[2:18:20]for him maybe because she
[2:18:23]I don't I don't speak bad of Diana
[2:18:25]but I'm not going to do okay so
[2:18:27]that was pre-meeting you but no that
[2:18:29]was when that event happened
[2:18:31]when we were oh okay that was
[2:18:33]something no it's when we were
[2:18:35]I'm not going to say together but
[2:18:37]okay how about this when I was
[2:18:38]his employee okay better
[2:18:41]so now moving back to the 2000s
[2:18:43]there come a time when um
[2:18:46]Mr Epstein met Prince Andrew yes
[2:18:49]and others in the royal family or
[2:18:50]just Prince Andrew as far as you
[2:18:52]know
[2:18:54]so as as much as I can piece it
[2:19:00]together
[2:19:01]first of all let's just state I did
[2:19:03]not introduce him to Prince Andrew
[2:19:05]I did not introduce him to Prince
[2:19:06]Andrew or to Sarah Fox
[2:19:08]that is a flat untruth start with
[2:19:11]that so now I'm going to tell you
[2:19:13]how he did actually meet him
[2:19:15]so um I if you find me that
[2:19:18]photograph I can date that time when
[2:19:19]you met Princess Diana at that event
[2:19:22]and based on that I'll be able to
[2:19:23]tell if it's pre or post that event
[2:19:25]because I haven't looked it up and
[2:19:27]I've never bothered to check so um
[2:19:31]Lynn Forrester who was a client or
[2:19:33]some type of client or I think she
[2:19:35]actually tried to date him or might
[2:19:37]have dated him for the record
[2:19:40]um she was in
[2:19:45]do you want to ask me something okay
[2:19:47]she was um she had a house or she
[2:19:50]rented a house in
[2:19:52]the vineyard I think it was in the
[2:19:53]vineyard or Nantucket I can't remember
[2:19:55]now which one it was it was one of
[2:19:56]those so either Nantucket or the
[2:19:58]vineyard
[2:19:59]and invited Epstein to go
[2:20:04]and I believe I believe that's when
[2:20:08]he met Prince Andrew
[2:20:10]however I believe that before that
[2:20:13]event
[2:20:13]he had gone to the Bahamas and had
[2:20:16]hung out with
[2:20:17]Sarah Ferguson and Sarah had called
[2:20:21]Epstein
[2:20:24]and had arranged with Lynn or I
[2:20:27]don't know I don't know now I'm
[2:20:28]speculating anyway
[2:20:29]long and short he met Andrew up there
[2:20:33]and I'm not holding you to an exact
[2:20:35]date but what we can date it from
[2:20:37]that picture if you find me the
[2:20:39]picture but you know
[2:20:40]without looking at a photo in your
[2:20:42]mind approximately when was that
[2:20:44]I want to say it was 2000 2000
[2:20:48]no probably 2001 2002
[2:20:50]2000s yes and I think it was
[2:20:53]actually Prince Andrew himself who
[2:20:58]suggested that
[2:20:59]he met Jeffrey Epstein through you I
[2:21:02]think that's true
[2:21:03]so uh well it's true
[2:21:06]that Andrew said that no I'm sure
[2:21:08]it's true um
[2:21:10]because I I'm English
[2:21:15]and my close friends are all
[2:21:19]close friends with Sarah and Andrew
[2:21:21]and
[2:21:23]I would not um say that I was close
[2:21:26]friends with Andrew before
[2:21:27]but certainly we were friendly and
[2:21:29]certainly his best friends some of
[2:21:31]them
[2:21:31]very very close with me and I think
[2:21:34]that my
[2:21:35]friendship uh my
[2:21:39]me being present or me is what
[2:21:42]made Andrew like Jeffrey more
[2:21:46]like trust him or I think so you
[2:21:48]don't
[2:21:49]dispute that you're that you kind of
[2:21:52]had a role in um
[2:21:54]getting together you're just saying you
[2:21:55]didn't say Prince
[2:21:57]I would never have introduced them it
[2:21:58]would never have occurred to me to
[2:22:00]introduce them I couldn't imagine them
[2:22:01]being very good two
[2:22:02]two chalk and cheeses would never I
[2:22:05]mean for real
[2:22:06]there's nothing there to connect them
[2:22:08]so he met Prince Andrew and then
[2:22:11]he had a really good relationship I
[2:22:13]don't I don't like that word it
[2:22:14]sounds
[2:22:15]funky they had a print acquaintance
[2:22:19]thank you and through Sarah actually I
[2:22:22]think Sarah is the one that pushed
[2:22:24]that
[2:22:25]and they met and hung out
[2:22:29]I want to say two or three times that
[2:22:32]had nothing to do with me I wasn't
[2:22:33]communicating with Andrew
[2:22:35]I wasn't in touch with him and I
[2:22:38]know this because I was
[2:22:39]annoyed and I felt left out
[2:22:45]and I felt that it disrespected and I
[2:22:49]was like
[2:22:50]this is weird I couldn't even imagine
[2:22:53]Epstein and Andrew together and I
[2:22:55]thought that Sarah was trying to put
[2:22:57]the moves on Jeffrey if I'm being
[2:22:58]honest
[2:22:59]and I thought the whole thing was
[2:23:00]annoying and I was pissed
[2:23:02]so what happened with their
[2:23:05]relationship putting aside the
[2:23:06]the publicity around Prince Andrew's
[2:23:09]purported relationship with um what
[2:23:13]happened as far as you know with
[2:23:15]Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein's
[2:23:17]relationship from
[2:23:18]from the times you just described
[2:23:21]after that um at some point Jeffrey
[2:23:24]told me
[2:23:25]Epstein told me that um Andrew was
[2:23:26]coming to New York and
[2:23:28]I needed to organize the whole thing
[2:23:32]that's classic by the way classic
[2:23:34]Epstein of course if someone's
[2:23:36]I'm like all right fine whatever
[2:23:38]and because he wanted to make sure
[2:23:41]that Andrew was taken care of and
[2:23:43]that he was comfortable he had
[2:23:44]whatever he needed and yada yada yada
[2:23:47]and I'm like well am I going to meet
[2:23:49]him or you're just going to have me
[2:23:50]do all the job and he said well you
[2:23:51]know you can come and say hello
[2:23:54]all right wow all right that's so
[2:23:56]nice of you
[2:23:57]for real because you have to
[2:23:58]understand like I don't know if I
[2:24:00]told you this before but I did not
[2:24:01]have the keys to say I was not
[2:24:02]allowed to go to his house
[2:24:04]unless I was summoned or told
[2:24:07]I was not allowed to answer his
[2:24:08]phones we can go there but anyway so
[2:24:10]this we can tell this is a bit of a
[2:24:12]sore point
[2:24:13]perhaps anyway so Andrew came and of
[2:24:17]course
[2:24:18]the minute we got together I was like
[2:24:21]yay hi and then it was so nice
[2:24:25]because
[2:24:26]the the difference
[2:24:30]of being in England with Prince
[2:24:32]Andrew versus being in New York
[2:24:34]without all the bullshit
[2:24:35]was insane and our friendship just
[2:24:38]like
[2:24:39]lit up like this because we're
[2:24:41]you that I'm safe I mean safe as in
[2:24:45]I'm not yeah you know Nigel Dempster
[2:24:47]or taking a page
[2:24:50]not in a million years would I do
[2:24:51]something so gross
[2:24:53]and we honestly go on like a house
[2:24:55]off I
[2:24:56]really liked him a lot and he's it
[2:24:59]was so nice
[2:25:00]and we just became really really good
[2:25:03]friends
[2:25:04]much more so than when we were in
[2:25:06]London if I'm honest
[2:25:07]and then with respect to and and
[2:25:10]Prince Andrew what do you know about
[2:25:13]that relationship
[2:25:16]would you like to ask it again
[2:25:18]relationship's a big word like I said
[2:25:20]I don't like the word let's just start
[2:25:21]that
[2:25:22]okay so I have read
[2:25:25]I just want to like piece together
[2:25:28]but don't say before you say what you
[2:25:29]read because that's one of the
[2:25:30]problems is that we're all kind of
[2:25:32]all right all right well informed by
[2:25:34]like all the
[2:25:35]publicity and information around what
[2:25:36]everybody else has said but the
[2:25:38]what do you what do you know what
[2:25:39]do you think
[2:25:42]or what did you see well what did you
[2:25:44]hear
[2:25:44]what's an even bigger word than
[2:25:45]bullshit
[2:25:46]okay why well go ahead just but finish
[2:25:49]that thought
[2:25:49]why do you think that I'm going to
[2:25:51]tell you right now I'm so happy to
[2:25:53]tell you I'm like excited
[2:25:55]I'm beyond excited okay so
[2:25:59]there's going to make sure of what
[2:26:00]I've actually seen and know from the
[2:26:03]evidence and versus what I've put
[2:26:05]together
[2:26:05]I'm impossible for me at this point
[2:26:07]to separate everything but I'll tell
[2:26:08]you what I know
[2:26:09]versus what I saw and what I'm
[2:26:12]physically having here
[2:26:13]but it's helpful for you to know so
[2:26:16]um the allegation I have to go with
[2:26:20]the allegation the allegation was that
[2:26:22]at my house in London in March
[2:26:24]whatever that was 2001 I believe
[2:26:28]uh we went to London especially so
[2:26:32]that
[2:26:33]you'd have a relationship with
[2:26:37]Prince Andrew and she was paid a
[2:26:38]vast amount of money
[2:26:39]for that purpose okay and that she
[2:26:45]then um
[2:26:47]got in my bathroom in my house in
[2:26:50]London and
[2:26:51]had sex sexual relations with him and
[2:26:53]then went into my guest room
[2:26:55]and had full-blown sex and then left
[2:26:57]my house
[2:26:58]oh he left and she fell used and
[2:27:00]disgusting
[2:27:02]and a photograph was taken of them
[2:27:04]just before all these events took
[2:27:05]place in my study
[2:27:08]that is what is the story
[2:27:11]oh and then after that she met him
[2:27:13]several other times but we'll come to
[2:27:14]that we'll come this is where it will
[2:27:15]allegedly started and they went to
[2:27:17]tram
[2:27:18]oh right right right we went to a
[2:27:19]nightclub that night oh we went to
[2:27:21]dinner
[2:27:22]right we went to dinner and then to
[2:27:23]tram okay so
[2:27:25]the first thing about that weekend
[2:27:27]that specific weekend was it's my
[2:27:29]mom's 80th birthday and I was in
[2:27:31]the country
[2:27:33]and I have some corroborating
[2:27:36]evidence for that
[2:27:37]and a lot of testimonial that you
[2:27:38]can check so that takes care of
[2:27:41]the reason why I one of the reasons
[2:27:44]why
[2:27:45]her story doesn't hold water the
[2:27:48]second reason why so by the way when
[2:27:51]I say that my mom turned 80th that
[2:27:53]actual weekend
[2:27:54]was her birthdays on march the 11th
[2:27:57]and the reason why I went to london
[2:27:59]and I presume
[2:28:00]but I guess I don't remember is why
[2:28:03]when we were
[2:28:04]so the whole trip started
[2:28:07]because of alberto pinto who is
[2:28:09]the decorator for the island
[2:28:12]and for and for new york as well
[2:28:16]and he had wanted epstein to go to
[2:28:20]see
[2:28:22]a house in marrakesh if I remember
[2:28:25]rightly
[2:28:26]and went via the alhambra
[2:28:29]it was also for the for new mexico
[2:28:32]so there's architectural pieces that
[2:28:35]compare and that was the basis of
[2:28:37]that trip
[2:28:38]and I suspect now that that trip was
[2:28:42]planned all around the fact that I had
[2:28:43]to be in
[2:28:44]wanted to be in that was going to be
[2:28:45]in london no matter what for my mom's
[2:28:47]80th birthday
[2:28:48]at my brother's house in the country
[2:28:51]which is approximately
[2:28:53]an hour outside one hour and a half
[2:28:56]an hour and a half outside of london
[2:28:58]and my brother's
[2:28:58]heaven and we all congregated on the
[2:29:01]saturday
[2:29:03]for her birthday celebration on the
[2:29:06]sunday
[2:29:07]and then we left so that's
[2:29:11]that the second reason
[2:29:15]why probably maybe even the more
[2:29:18]important reason than my mom's birthday
[2:29:19]that I think it's
[2:29:21]absolute rubbish is that prince
[2:29:23]andrew
[2:29:24]the idea of him doing anything of
[2:29:28]that nature
[2:29:29]in my house that's the size of this
[2:29:31]room
[2:29:33]is so mind-blowingly not
[2:29:38]conceivable to me as the man or what I
[2:29:42]just can't
[2:29:42]I can't even know is there any way that
[2:29:49]it could have happened
[2:29:50]no okay describe the physical plan oh
[2:29:52]the physical
[2:29:53]so the my house was tiny I think it's
[2:29:59]900 square feet in total well maybe
[2:30:01]that
[2:30:01]is that right maybe maybe night it's
[2:30:03]on it is on three floors however
[2:30:06]so you're talking about a little it's
[2:30:08]a jewel it used to be a stable
[2:30:10]for a horse it was the stables for the
[2:30:12]big houses it was the
[2:30:14]it was the little poor man's home
[2:30:16]behind the rich man's home
[2:30:18]it's a jewel it's a was a gorgeous
[2:30:21]little place but it is
[2:30:22]the size of a nut if you make a
[2:30:25]noise
[2:30:26]let's say to the burp or something
[2:30:28]you don't want it
[2:30:29]you'd hear it it just where she says
[2:30:35]that they had
[2:30:36]relations in a bathroom I
[2:30:39]first of all the bath is an old
[2:30:42]victorian bath
[2:30:43]I could I'm quite quite small
[2:30:47]it's tight for me I put my brother in
[2:30:50]there to see what would happen
[2:30:52]it looks like a blivet which is a
[2:30:53]sausage in a layer very tight
[2:30:55]tight skin so her description
[2:30:59]of whatever the two people were
[2:31:00]doing in the tub that would work
[2:31:03]the bathroom itself is so small you
[2:31:04]can't lie flat on the floor so
[2:31:06]it couldn't happen on the floor
[2:31:07]because you physically
[2:31:08]can't this bathroom is too small to
[2:31:11]even be on the floor and then the
[2:31:12]kicker of all kickers
[2:31:14]is that because the bathroom was so
[2:31:16]small I decorated it try and make it
[2:31:18]look huge which meant that I put
[2:31:20]mirrors the whole way around it
[2:31:22]and what was so fun about being in
[2:31:23]there is that if you stood in the
[2:31:25]bathroom you saw like a hundred of
[2:31:26]you like you do if you were in
[2:31:28]um a fun house yeah well
[2:31:30]alice in wonderland or one of
[2:31:32]those things that you would see
[2:31:33]yourself going stretching everything
[2:31:34]and it's the image if you said
[2:31:36]you were let's say you were
[2:31:37]let's let's say that telling the
[2:31:40]truth she could say she was having
[2:31:43]sex with five thousand generations of
[2:31:46]the royal family because that's how
[2:31:47]far back you could see yourself
[2:31:49]there is no way in god's green earth
[2:31:51]if that had taken place that this
[2:31:52]is something that you would miss
[2:31:54]because it's you can miss it if you
[2:31:56]were standing there you'd see the
[2:31:58]whole of the fbi is the whole the
[2:32:00]department of justice standing behind
[2:32:01]you it's like no did you um also
[2:32:07]explain where the tap
[2:32:08]was in the bathtub okay well it's an
[2:32:11]old victim
[2:32:14]and a tap so if you were in
[2:32:18]if you're in the top way
[2:32:20]this is the time my tap would be here
[2:32:22]i think no so you think it's kind of
[2:32:28]logistically and physically not
[2:32:31]something that could have
[2:32:32]well there's that and there's just
[2:32:35]andrew he he's so
[2:32:39]he's so he he had a tie on
[2:32:54]do you think there's any way it could
[2:32:55]have happened or no absolutely
[2:32:57]on no way know how absolutely no wait
[2:33:01]i haven't finished so
[2:33:03]oh sorry
[2:33:14]when all this nonsense took place
[2:33:16]where this whole story with the
[2:33:18]picture and that there's some of that
[2:33:23]i believe that this whole thing was
[2:33:25]manufactured and i can
[2:33:29]point you to some potentially
[2:33:31]corroborating evidence of this
[2:33:33]so when she gave the photograph to the
[2:33:37]fbi
[2:33:38]in australia just just to be clear
[2:33:39]the photograph you're talking about
[2:33:40]you're talking about the famous one
[2:33:42]where i have a i have an image of it
[2:33:43]here
[2:33:44]andrew's holding and you're in the
[2:33:46]background
[2:33:47]the fake just to figure
[2:33:51]so uh on the back of that
[2:33:55]and this is in the discovery by the
[2:33:57]way uh i don't know if it's in
[2:34:00]i don't know where which discovery i
[2:34:01]saw it in now but this
[2:34:03]she wrote she wrote in the back that
[2:34:05]it was a picture that was taken
[2:34:07]in january of 2000 and in 2000 or 2001
[2:34:11]i don't remember
[2:34:12]okay so now in her handwriting that
[2:34:15]she's giving the fbi this picture
[2:34:17]suddenly now it's march so how do you
[2:34:19]go from her writing it's january to
[2:34:22]march it's because it only that's the
[2:34:23]only one that fit
[2:34:24]with the flight logs that when she
[2:34:27]could be in london and this took
[2:34:28]place
[2:34:30]the second thing is that um i'm so
[2:34:32]excited to tell you this
[2:34:35]there is a journalist i know you guys
[2:34:39]are like oh
[2:34:41]the fake news is at work here so
[2:34:43]there's a journalist called
[2:34:45]sharon chircher there is
[2:34:51]a lawyer called brad edwards these
[2:34:55]two
[2:34:55]and there is a southern district of
[2:34:58]florida prosecutor called villafana
[2:35:02]i would very much look forward
[2:35:05]to showing you the relationship between
[2:35:08]these three parties that created
[2:35:12]that story why well without
[2:35:15]putting aside the relationship why do
[2:35:18]you think they created that story
[2:35:20]um i believe that story was created
[2:35:25]for the purposes of
[2:35:28]well there are multiple the first
[2:35:30]one is financial
[2:35:33]the second one is for the purposes
[2:35:36]of the cvr a case
[2:35:40]the third one was for the
[2:35:43]serialization both of her book and in
[2:35:45]the papers
[2:35:46]for the story to attack the rock
[2:35:48]family
[2:35:50]and just as a so
[2:35:54]i think when when you were just
[2:35:56]asked about the photo
[2:35:58]you said you actually thought the
[2:35:59]photo was fake
[2:36:01]do you think it was just misstated or
[2:36:03]you think it's a
[2:36:04]literally a fake photo i believe it's
[2:36:06]literally a fake photo
[2:36:08]um why do you think that
[2:36:11]um well first of all
[2:36:15]i don't remember it we'll start but
[2:36:18]okay but
[2:36:18]the outfit i'm wearing yeah is the
[2:36:20]outfit from my mom's
[2:36:22]birthday party so but you don't have
[2:36:27]any
[2:36:29]do you dispute that they met each other
[2:36:33]do you know whether they've met each
[2:36:34]other i do not know that they met
[2:36:36]okay so so you not only so you think
[2:36:39]the photograph is fake but you also
[2:36:41]are not even positive they actually
[2:36:42]ever met each other
[2:36:43]i know so you don't have a specific
[2:36:46]recollection
[2:36:47]of kind of being at an event or a
[2:36:49]party or your apartment
[2:36:51]or your you know your flat mundan
[2:36:53]with prince andrew and
[2:36:57]absolutely she doesn't know one way
[2:36:59]or the other the reason why
[2:37:02]i i'm not hesitant i know i don't have
[2:37:04]any memory of that so that
[2:37:06]that's not the issue the issue is
[2:37:08]could andrew have come to the house
[2:37:09]to see me or see
[2:37:10]epstein and say hi and she had been
[2:37:13]there yes
[2:37:14]i can't say that that didn't happen
[2:37:16]but what i can absolutely
[2:37:19]categorically say is that i never
[2:37:22]at any time said andrew up to have
[2:37:26]relations with her or any other human
[2:37:29]being
[2:37:30]ever and i can categorically state
[2:37:33]that her characterization of whatever
[2:37:37]may or may not have happened
[2:37:38]could physically would just know
[2:37:41]and plus i was in the country so
[2:37:44]all of that's
[2:37:45]just not conceivable did you
[2:37:49]attend um did you attend
[2:37:58]social parties over and again i really
[2:38:00]know i'm
[2:38:01]focused on 2000 plus so so not
[2:38:05]not the early years where um
[2:38:09]mr epstein would host the party or be
[2:38:11]a big part of the
[2:38:12]hosting of the party and some of or
[2:38:15]many of
[2:38:16]the young women who are masseuses
[2:38:17]would be invited to the party as
[2:38:20]guests or as entertainment
[2:38:22]um i certainly went to his house
[2:38:26]when he would have
[2:38:28]people who would be there that were
[2:38:31]i call them i would the way i would
[2:38:33]think of it and i would
[2:38:34]characterize it with his
[2:38:36]entourage that's how i thought about
[2:38:38]and that's certainly within the
[2:38:39]later 2000s yes
[2:38:42]did um did you attend
[2:38:47]any weddings of famous people
[2:38:50]with mr epstein again i'm mostly
[2:38:53]focused on
[2:38:54]plus plus post 2000 but if there's
[2:38:57]something that comes to mind in the
[2:38:58]90s that's fine as well
[2:39:00]a wedding weddings with with
[2:39:04]epstein i don't think i ever went to a
[2:39:08]wedding with epstein
[2:39:10]but i can't think of a wedding that i
[2:39:11]ever went to with him
[2:39:14]um do you know um so you don't
[2:39:17]remember
[2:39:18]you didn't attend um president clinton's
[2:39:21]daughter's wedding
[2:39:22]i did chelsea clinton's but that
[2:39:23]wasn't with mr epstein no
[2:39:25]ted weight my boyfriend say it again
[2:39:28]with ted weight my boyfriend okay um
[2:39:31]do you know whether mr epstein
[2:39:32]was at that wedding he was not
[2:39:34]okay and how did you did you have a
[2:39:37]relationship
[2:39:38]well why did you get invited that way
[2:39:41]because ted and clinton were very
[2:39:42]close
[2:39:45]and why how were you close to them
[2:39:47]like what was the reason you were
[2:39:48]close to them
[2:39:49]i met um president clinton
[2:39:52]well i first of all i went to the
[2:39:53]white house with epstein once
[2:39:56]for uh i think it was for a
[2:39:58]historical
[2:39:59]like one of those benefits and um
[2:40:02]i met the president then but like
[2:40:05]thousand other people shook his hand
[2:40:07]then after that um i had a
[2:40:10]very good friend of mine that was the
[2:40:14]known to be the mayor of miami beach
[2:40:15]philip levine
[2:40:17]and philip and the president were
[2:40:19]very good friends
[2:40:20]and philip was a very and i were
[2:40:23]very good friends and so
[2:40:24]i actually was introduced
[2:40:27]to the president post his coming out
[2:40:31]of the white house
[2:40:32]and became friendly with him
[2:40:34]because of philip levine because of what
[2:40:37]philip levine um there's some names that
[2:40:42]have been
[2:40:44]publicly associated with um
[2:40:47]mr epstein that i just want to ask
[2:40:50]you if you know about
[2:40:52]um piers morgan is friendly with who
[2:40:56]with with mr epstein i have no idea
[2:40:58]never i doubt it yeah there's no trick
[2:41:00]question i'm not trying
[2:41:01]i'm not suggesting that i know the
[2:41:03]answer to it i'm really just asking
[2:41:05]well i would be astonished i can't
[2:41:06]imagine they'd have anything in common
[2:41:08]either
[2:41:09]how about friends with piers morgan
[2:41:12]i i've met him um i've met him i met
[2:41:15]him at
[2:41:16]an event in manhattan uh
[2:41:20]i can't remember what uh in more
[2:41:23]recently so probably in
[2:41:25]2012
[2:41:28]that something in that and we had a
[2:41:31]very nice conversation
[2:41:32]so i remember i remember that i
[2:41:34]remember thinking i'd never i don't
[2:41:35]remember if i'd ever met him before but
[2:41:36]i remember thinking how
[2:41:38]nice he was and how surprised so i
[2:41:40]thought i liked him what can i tell
[2:41:42]you
[2:41:43]so that that's the only one that's
[2:41:45]any memory i have of that
[2:41:46]i'm not sure if that's correct but
[2:41:48]that's what i think
[2:41:50]i don't have a correct or incorrect
[2:41:51]no i just don't know i just i
[2:41:52]also want to try and
[2:41:54]no no but i don't i want you to
[2:41:55]believe me because i mean this
[2:41:58]there is so much information in the
[2:42:01]public sphere
[2:42:02]about you and mr repstein and others
[2:42:05]around
[2:42:06]and some of it is definitely true and
[2:42:08]some of it is definitely false
[2:42:10]so when i ask a question if i think
[2:42:12]that you're not being honest or that
[2:42:14]you're
[2:42:15]missing something i'm not this isn't
[2:42:17]got you i'll say that to you um did
[2:42:19]you ever meet jfk jr
[2:42:21]i'm sorry did you ever meet jfk jr
[2:42:24]yes when was that i would i um
[2:42:28]i met him at
[2:42:35]andrew quema's wedding no kerry kerry
[2:42:38]kerry's wedding kerry's wedding who
[2:42:40]did kerry marry andrew quema
[2:42:42]yes sorry okay andrew quema's way in
[2:42:45]when would that have been
[2:42:45]approximately 1990
[2:42:49]so before 1999
[2:42:52]i don't i something like that but
[2:42:54]would that have been before you
[2:42:55]maybe strap scene
[2:42:57]uh yes did you ever
[2:43:03]any sort of professional or social
[2:43:05]relationship with john of kennedy jr
[2:43:07]i can't sit
[2:43:08]you would i thought he was very
[2:43:10]attractive are you fancy
[2:43:12]sorry
[2:43:14]finding him attractive and fancying
[2:43:15]him did you
[2:43:16]did you have any sort of you know
[2:43:18]social relationship with him
[2:43:20]i mean we knew each other and i i
[2:43:23]thought he was
[2:43:24]wonderful and fun and i enjoyed
[2:43:25]meeting him but i
[2:43:27]we went out me i i wanted to say
[2:43:29]we had a dinner or two but
[2:43:31]i was very excited but that was it um
[2:43:34]and then alan dershowitz i what's the
[2:43:37]question
[2:43:38]with alan do you say it again what's
[2:43:40]the question do you know
[2:43:42]um do you know mr dershowitz do you
[2:43:43]know whether he knew mr repstein do
[2:43:45]you know the nature of their
[2:43:46]relationship
[2:43:46]um i definitely do know alan um
[2:43:52]i want i'm just trying to remember
[2:43:53]if i knew him
[2:43:55]i i am trying to remember how i met
[2:43:57]him and i met him separate from it
[2:43:59]i don't remember
[2:43:59]so that i have no recollection um
[2:44:03]i remember um i know that he was
[2:44:07]epstein's lawyer i don't know if they
[2:44:10]had any
[2:44:11]relationship prior to that i don't
[2:44:13]remember oh i do
[2:44:14]actually sorry i think they met at
[2:44:17]the same
[2:44:18]martha's vineyard through lynn
[2:44:20]forester now i
[2:44:21]i think that's what happened i think
[2:44:23]that's it
[2:44:24]and why do you think that um
[2:44:28]because i just put to my head okay
[2:44:30]and did you did you um you said that
[2:44:33]mr dershowitz was
[2:44:34]mr epstein's attorney do you know
[2:44:37]whether they also socialized
[2:44:39]um so my present memory of when i
[2:44:43]remember two i have two distinct
[2:44:45]memories with alan
[2:44:46]one is with him and his wife at the
[2:44:49]island
[2:44:51]and i perhaps you remember that and
[2:44:54]i remember i i think going to his
[2:44:59]house
[2:45:00]in boston if he had a house in boston
[2:45:01]that's any two times i remember
[2:45:04]did you ever observe um mr dershowitz
[2:45:06]doing anything inappropriate with
[2:45:09]young women around mr epstein never
[2:45:11]um did you ever hear anybody didn't
[2:45:14]be able to tell you that he had done
[2:45:16]anything inappropriate absolutely not
[2:45:18]did you ever did you know one way or
[2:45:20]the other whether
[2:45:21]mr dershowitz ever got a massage
[2:45:25]at the island or any locations that
[2:45:27]um he was at with mr epstein i
[2:45:31]i don't i don't remember anything about
[2:45:33]him ever getting a massage i don't ever
[2:45:35]have any record i i don't believe i
[2:45:36]ever even saw him in a bathroom
[2:45:39]i have no knowledge of that um
[2:45:48]i'm jumping around a little bit um
[2:45:52]you mentioned i think briefly that the
[2:45:54]terramar project yes what is that um
[2:46:00]i found a terramar in the idea of
[2:46:05]terramar came i think in 2010
[2:46:07]so um i want to just explain
[2:46:11]terramar a little bit so uh
[2:46:17]ted and i bought a boat well ted
[2:46:24]bought the boat
[2:46:27]and um it the basis of the boat was
[2:46:30]to
[2:46:31]do explorations and um
[2:46:35]sea sea exploratory stuff
[2:46:38]this really started because i have
[2:46:40]and have had
[2:46:41]since i was a child a love of the
[2:46:45]ocean and everything aquatic and
[2:46:48]um i um i've always been
[2:46:55]i just i'm nervous about the state of
[2:47:00]the ocean
[2:47:01]when ted and i we worked with
[2:47:03]national geographic and we did
[2:47:06]exploratory work and the most
[2:47:08]exciting what we did many exciting
[2:47:10]things but one of the most
[2:47:11]fabulous ones that we did was we
[2:47:13]looked for Amelia Earhart twice
[2:47:15]added two expeditions to look for Amelia
[2:47:18]Earhart
[2:47:20]as as an example of an uh
[2:47:22]exploration that we did um
[2:47:25]and he he had a foundation for the
[2:47:28]ocean
[2:47:29]and uh we worked with Nat Geo
[2:47:33]we worked with um Woods Hole um
[2:47:37]we did amazing things
[2:47:40]we bought he bought the Remus 6000
[2:47:42]so when the plane went missing the
[2:47:44]plane that went
[2:47:45]to Air France from Brazil to Paris
[2:47:48]that went down
[2:47:49]it was the Remus 6000 that found that
[2:47:51]plane
[2:47:52]it's one of those deep sea
[2:47:54]underexplored anyway
[2:47:55]when i broke up with Ted i just one
[2:47:58]of the things i did not want to
[2:48:00]give up
[2:48:00]was uh the my love of the ocean
[2:48:04]and everything that we did and
[2:48:05]terramar the the genesis of
[2:48:08]terramar came from that so
[2:48:09]terramar obviously means land sea and
[2:48:11]the story of the ocean is that um
[2:48:15]earth really shouldn't be called earth
[2:48:17]it should be called ocean because
[2:48:18]three quarters is the ocean
[2:48:19]so and uh so
[2:48:23]i wanted to not clash with anything
[2:48:26]to do with Ted because
[2:48:28]it was a bit awkward between us and
[2:48:30]i'd say he took all the
[2:48:31]part of the ocean that was close to
[2:48:33]land so within 200 miles
[2:48:35]and so i decided i would focus on
[2:48:37]all the part of the ocean that was
[2:48:38]outside of national borders
[2:48:40]terramar and that's how that that's
[2:48:43]the genesis of terramar
[2:48:44]okay so what was the time period of
[2:48:46]that that i think
[2:48:48]after i broke up with Ted so 2010-11
[2:48:52]is when it started and then i ran it
[2:48:53]all the way up until
[2:48:55]whenever the Epstein drama struck and
[2:48:58]then i just
[2:48:59]shut it down not uh i shut it down
[2:49:01]because i didn't want
[2:49:03]what was happening to hurt any the
[2:49:06]Smithsonian or Nat Geo or
[2:49:09]the i just couldn't let everything
[2:49:13]be hurt by what was happening to me
[2:49:16]do you know um Jean-Luc Bernal
[2:49:20]yes how do you know um i met him
[2:49:23]so when i told you i was working for
[2:49:26]the european for my dad
[2:49:27]um and i was back in like 90 early
[2:49:30]90s yeah
[2:49:31]and i was um running a magazine
[2:49:35]one of the things in the magazine
[2:49:37]is fashion and so uh i was going to some
[2:49:42]fashion shows and i was looking for
[2:49:45]fashion sponsorship and in fact when i
[2:49:47]came to america one of the um
[2:49:50]the first sponsors that i got for it
[2:49:52]was Ron Pellman at revlon who was
[2:49:55]great and um i
[2:49:59]met Jean-Luc through just in paris
[2:50:03]like that but
[2:50:05]socially not did mr Epstein know him as
[2:50:09]well did you later learn whether they
[2:50:10]knew each other
[2:50:11]i'm not sure i i don't he would have
[2:50:14]Epstein had his own
[2:50:15]fashion situation so he would have i
[2:50:18]don't he didn't meet Jean-Luc through
[2:50:20]me did you ever observe them
[2:50:21]together over the years
[2:50:23]absolutely yeah i saw them many
[2:50:24]times together did
[2:50:25]did he um visit
[2:50:29]the island did he go to palme go to
[2:50:32]palm beach house yeah he went
[2:50:33]everywhere i saw him in every place
[2:50:35]did do you ever observe him um uh
[2:50:39]getting a massage or do you ever know
[2:50:41]what they got a massage maybe didn't
[2:50:43]observe it personally
[2:50:46]you don't remember i don't i mean i
[2:50:49]i don't i never i have no conscious
[2:50:51]memory of Jean-Luc
[2:50:54]i would imagine that he did but i
[2:50:55]never i don't see
[2:50:56]well um mr weinstein harvey weinstein
[2:51:02]what would you like to know do you
[2:51:04]know him yes um how do you know him
[2:51:07]like i guess i want to say how do you
[2:51:09]know him is it a relation you had
[2:51:11]kind of separate from mr epstein or
[2:51:14]did you guys did you meet him through
[2:51:15]mr epstein or
[2:51:17]i wouldn't i wouldn't say i had any
[2:51:19]type of relationship with harvey
[2:51:21]weinstein okay in any context
[2:51:24]socially i would meet him because i
[2:51:25]would go to events that harvey would
[2:51:27]be at and also his wife was english
[2:51:29]and georgina
[2:51:31]and so i was i mean friendly also
[2:51:34]would be a big word more of a
[2:51:35]queen so we would see each other and
[2:51:36]i would go to
[2:51:39]miramax events but there was a couple
[2:51:41]of people who worked for harvey who i
[2:51:43]was friendly with his
[2:51:45]primary producer his name is
[2:51:48]meryl poster i was friendly with and
[2:51:54]yeah do you know whether mr epstein
[2:51:58]had
[2:51:58]his own relationship with mr
[2:52:00]weinstein he did
[2:52:01]did they um socialize together at
[2:52:05]the island or in palm beach or
[2:52:08]i never saw harvey at any of epstein's
[2:52:10]house so socialize i don't know that
[2:52:11]they were friends
[2:52:13]i mean i can't see them together either
[2:52:15]i mean literally but um i know that
[2:52:19]they certainly do that i would i
[2:52:20]would imagine
[2:52:22]and in fact i think i have a memory
[2:52:24]but i can't
[2:52:26]that when harvey was trying to raise
[2:52:28]money for
[2:52:31]whatever his business called i can't
[2:52:33]remember his business
[2:52:36]maybe he went there because epstein
[2:52:37]was good at raising money i just don't
[2:52:39]know
[2:52:40]but i never saw them i don't i don't
[2:52:42]recall seeing harvey in any of the
[2:52:44]properties
[2:52:45]let's go a few more minutes and take
[2:52:48]a break i don't after lunch so
[2:52:50]so do you we talked several hours
[2:52:54]ago about your father
[2:52:55]and his business a little bit after
[2:52:58]your father passed
[2:53:00]do you know whether mr epstein was
[2:53:01]involved in
[2:53:03]your family business let you know
[2:53:07]absolutely not in any respect
[2:53:09]first of all there was no family
[2:53:10]business left
[2:53:11]stopped with that program and the
[2:53:12]second one is my family didn't like
[2:53:17]him
[2:53:18]very much and they were busy dealing
[2:53:21]with their own problems and there was
[2:53:23]no relationship whatsoever i mean he
[2:53:26]my my mom and he got along quite
[2:53:28]well that was it but that was
[2:53:30]she's an old lady he was nice to
[2:53:42]epstein
[2:53:43]he didn't know your father and so
[2:53:46]there's no
[2:53:47]he wouldn't have done business with
[2:53:48]your father's companies
[2:53:50]in the 80s either absolutely no i'm a
[2:53:54]hundred percent sure of that i never
[2:53:55]met him i never saw him i never
[2:53:57]heard his name
[2:53:59]no nothing so um
[2:54:04]there's been a lot of conversations
[2:54:07]about whether
[2:54:08]mr epstein maintained like a a list
[2:54:11]of people like a a book of
[2:54:15]famous people that he knew um like a
[2:54:19]it's called a black book or a client
[2:54:22]list or a list
[2:54:24]did you know the existence of any
[2:54:25]such list
[2:54:29]there is no list we'll start with
[2:54:31]that
[2:54:32]the genesis of that story i can
[2:54:34]actually trace for you
[2:54:36]from its absolute inception if
[2:54:39]that is what you're interested in
[2:54:42]first you know to be sure that there
[2:54:44]is no list there's no client list
[2:54:46]nothing like that
[2:54:47]no there's nothing like that you know
[2:54:50]that obviously yeah okay so you say
[2:54:52]you think you know the genesis so go
[2:54:53]ahead
[2:54:54]tell us um i'd like you to know that
[2:54:59]i have brought some supporting
[2:55:00]corroborative evidence
[2:55:02]well tell me what it is too and then
[2:55:03]we'll get the cooperation
[2:55:05]is this is this do you want to
[2:55:06]take a break here because this is a
[2:55:07]long
[2:55:10]let's take a break yeah yeah let's
[2:55:12]take a break all right the time is uh 203
[2:55:15]and we're going to take a break right
[2:55:16]now
[2:55:22]all right we're resuming the recorded
[2:55:24]proffer of miss maxwell
[2:55:26]it is 216 on thursday
[2:55:29]july 24th and the recording device is
[2:55:32]now
[2:55:33]on so when we stopped
[2:55:37]to take a break we were talking
[2:55:39]about
[2:55:40]um what has been publicly discussed as
[2:55:43]um a black book or the epstein list
[2:55:47]and um and that's where we are
[2:55:50]so you said you you think you might
[2:55:52]know or that you're aware of kind of
[2:55:53]the
[2:55:55]the origin of of this narrative right
[2:55:58]i just want to reiterate again there
[2:56:00]is no list
[2:56:01]that i am aware of i've never at any
[2:56:04]time at least during the period of
[2:56:05]time
[2:56:06]when i was okay present okay the
[2:56:20]origin
[2:56:22]of this story i believe
[2:56:27]begins
[2:56:30]or it has a it has a beginning in 2009
[2:56:33]and then it has a it has a prequel
[2:56:35]but we have to start in 2009
[2:56:40]in 2009 there is uh
[2:56:45]Epstein is i think out of jail
[2:56:51]and there are civil suits
[2:56:54]taking place many of these
[2:56:58]are coming out of a disgraced law firm
[2:57:03]rosteen adler rosteen rosenfeld and
[2:57:07]adler
[2:57:12]at that law firm is
[2:57:16]a lawyer who started there in
[2:57:20]april may 2009 called brad edwards
[2:57:27]in 2009 allegedly
[2:57:37]the fbi gets a call in october of 2009
[2:57:46]from brad edwards
[2:57:49]and he allegedly tells them
[2:57:53]that he has come across a piece of
[2:57:57]evidence that belongs to epstein
[2:58:04]that contains a list
[2:58:07]of all of his clients
[2:58:11]and victims
[2:58:15]underage girls massage therapists and
[2:58:20]his uh and the men who are having sex
[2:58:24]with them
[2:58:27]and he becomes he brad edwards
[2:58:29]becomes a cooperating witness
[2:58:32]cooperating confidential inform sorry
[2:58:35]confidential informant for them
[2:58:39]and in a sting operation obtains
[2:58:44]the list from
[2:58:48]a former battler of ex-teens called
[2:58:50]alfredo rodriguez
[2:58:54]and it becomes evidence
[2:58:58]in the civil suit in the
[2:59:08]alfredo rodriguez is subsequently
[2:59:11]prosecuted for having an ak-47 or
[2:59:16]something weird some guns or
[2:59:18]something
[2:59:20]and goes to trial and there's a
[2:59:21]criminal complaint that the fbi
[2:59:23]produce and in that criminal
[2:59:25]complaint
[2:59:26]it says that brad edwards became
[2:59:30]aware
[2:59:31]of the list but we'll call it the
[2:59:34]list for the purposes of this
[2:59:38]after alfredo rodriguez's
[2:59:41]two depositions that are held in
[2:59:46]epstein's epstein civil suit
[2:59:50]it's in the fbi's affidavit
[2:59:54]that the evidence was collected and
[2:59:56]brad edwards became aware after the
[2:59:58]second deposition
[3:00:00]it's in the criminal complaint the
[3:00:07]truth
[3:00:08]is different from what's in
[3:00:12]both the criminal complaint and in
[3:00:14]that fbi affidavit
[3:00:16]and in brad edwards's own statements
[3:00:20]on the subject
[3:00:21]the truth is that alfredo rodriguez
[3:00:24]was deposed
[3:00:25]twice once in july and once in
[3:00:27]august
[3:00:29]and in the july deposition
[3:00:33]told brad edwards that he had
[3:00:37]handwritten notes or a journal or
[3:00:39]whatever
[3:00:41]in the deposition and brad edwards
[3:00:43]replies well we're going to come
[3:00:44]back for a second deposition
[3:00:47]and the second deposition takes place in
[3:00:49]august
[3:00:52]what this means is that brad edwards
[3:00:55]had access
[3:00:56]to the list
[3:00:59]from some time between july and august
[3:01:03]until when he actually called the fbi
[3:01:06]in october so we're talking
[3:01:10]six months or so rostein's firm
[3:01:19]was raided
[3:01:23]a few days after the list
[3:01:26]went into the fbi's hands and
[3:01:30]subsequently rostein himself was
[3:01:32]prosecuted for rico and i believe
[3:01:35]went to jail for 50 years
[3:01:37]as part of that rico case he admitted
[3:01:41]to
[3:01:41]on the record and was i don't know
[3:01:43]whether he was prosecuted for
[3:01:45]creating fake settlements and fake
[3:01:48]evidence in epstein's case
[3:01:57]in 2009
[3:02:01]simultaneously was this was going on
[3:02:08]my boyfriend ted wait
[3:02:12]was asked for 10 million dollars to
[3:02:14]keep me out of any
[3:02:15]of epstein's civil suits
[3:02:19]up until then i had not been in any
[3:02:23]of epstein's civil suits in fact i
[3:02:25]wasn't even sure
[3:02:27]say for the first time i was mentioned
[3:02:29]was by
[3:02:31]i hadn't been i was basically
[3:02:34]nowhere um and then ted was called
[3:02:39]for this 10 million dollars and had
[3:02:41]been shown
[3:02:42]his people had been shown evidence
[3:02:46]that included
[3:02:48]the list uh the flight logs
[3:02:53]and various other pieces of evidence
[3:02:59]now we're going to the prequel part
[3:03:01]of this story so then it can
[3:03:03]tie to how this starts um in
[3:03:11]2007 epstein signs the non-prosecution
[3:03:15]agreement
[3:03:18]he then fights the prosecution
[3:03:20]agreement or
[3:03:21]debates it through the doj or whatever
[3:03:23]happened there
[3:03:24]and is goes to the court in 2008
[3:03:29]when it it's accepted or whatever
[3:03:32]that is
[3:03:35]vilafana was the lead prosecutor
[3:03:38]over the lead yes in that case
[3:03:41]and um she
[3:03:46]i think was not happy with
[3:03:49]the outcome and utilized
[3:03:56]at that time brad edwards to
[3:04:03]file the cvr8 case now
[3:04:11]what is what i have managed to
[3:04:16]understand from this is
[3:04:17]within the opr itself there is evidence
[3:04:20]there it says that brad edwards was
[3:04:22]the only lawyer that she was allowed
[3:04:24]to talk to so i just
[3:04:25]want to preface that the reason
[3:04:29]why uh i know that she
[3:04:34]went behind accost us back
[3:04:38]and everything else to do this is
[3:04:41]because brad edwards
[3:04:43]in a podcast made the revelation
[3:04:47]what he says is that he'd never heard
[3:04:50]of the cvr8 case before
[3:04:52]and vilafana called him and told him
[3:04:55]to file it
[3:04:56]the sole purpose of the cvr8
[3:05:00]was to overturn the non-prosecution
[3:05:02]agreement
[3:05:06]so what i believe is that vilafana
[3:05:08]worked
[3:05:09]with brad edwards who she had also
[3:05:12]been he was the lawyer that she had
[3:05:13]selected as a pro bono
[3:05:15]lawyer for some of the victims
[3:05:19]and he was also working for
[3:05:22]rostein's firm that was under rico
[3:05:24]investigation for that entire time
[3:05:27]creating fake evidence in epstein's
[3:05:29]case
[3:05:31]and she had just filed hidden secret
[3:05:37]using edwards to overturn the npa by
[3:05:40]filing
[3:05:40]the number of this cvr8 case that
[3:05:42]sole purpose was to overturn it
[3:05:45]and so when he approached her with
[3:05:49]the list this was part of
[3:05:53]the effort to utilize and find new
[3:05:56]evidence
[3:05:57]to support the overturning either of
[3:06:00]the npa and or the new case
[3:06:02]against epstein because brad edwards
[3:06:08]or i don't know it was brad edwards
[3:06:09]because rostein's firm asked
[3:06:12]my then boyfriend for 10 million
[3:06:14]dollars to kick me out of suits that
[3:06:16]i had no knowledge of at that time
[3:06:18]whatsoever
[3:06:19]i now know that the base of this story
[3:06:21]was a blackmail
[3:06:23]of a billionaire because ted wait was
[3:06:26]a multi-billionaire
[3:06:28]he had everything he was way way more
[3:06:32]wealthy than epstein if anyone
[3:06:35]cares and that is the reason why
[3:06:39]ted and i broke up
[3:06:43]was the basis of that so
[3:06:46]and that list was created so then
[3:06:49]the the the masseuses that were on that
[3:06:52]list
[3:06:53]i'd never heard of some of them i i
[3:06:57]not even from the civil suits that had
[3:07:00]come up
[3:07:00]since i've seen it this is me now
[3:07:02]knowing what's in the list today
[3:07:04]and i believe that oh
[3:07:07]uh alfredo redriguez
[3:07:11]so there's a metamorphosis of this
[3:07:13]list so the original
[3:07:15]statement that brad edwards makes
[3:07:16]that's in the documents
[3:07:17]contemporaneously is that it's pieces
[3:07:20]of paper
[3:07:21]that alfredo has it then morphs into
[3:07:25]something
[3:07:25]that alfredo took a book
[3:07:29]that alfredo took from epstein's
[3:07:31]computer but there's no
[3:07:33]computer i know certainly not in 2005
[3:07:36]when this was allegedly taken
[3:07:38]that came out as a book and then it
[3:07:40]morphed
[3:07:41]into at the civil time my civil
[3:07:44]cases into
[3:07:45]a book that was taken from my
[3:07:46]computer
[3:07:47]and then it morphed into the southern
[3:07:48]district of new york as a combination
[3:07:52]list of mine and epstein's that is
[3:07:55]a metamorphosis through
[3:07:58]documents that you can trace so
[3:08:06]so the the there in your mind
[3:08:10]from what you just described there is
[3:08:13]a list
[3:08:14]it's just it's just manufacture i mean
[3:08:19]have you seen
[3:08:20]the the list even fake or do you know
[3:08:23]i i haven't seen it but but what i just
[3:08:25]i was confused i guess my
[3:08:26]my thing is that what brad edwards
[3:08:28]says in all of these things is
[3:08:29]in the paperwork and whatnot and then
[3:08:33]so all this story is basically
[3:08:35]controlled by five people
[3:08:36]there's four alleged victims that
[3:08:38]speak about the list
[3:08:40]and the blackmail and the men and
[3:08:41]the sex and whatnot
[3:08:43]and and the lawyers and now the
[3:08:46]prosecutors sorry
[3:08:47]the southern district of new york for
[3:08:49]sure but no one else
[3:08:52]none of these stories carry from any
[3:08:53]of the 44
[3:08:55]alleged original victims they never
[3:08:57]ever say that they were farmed out to
[3:08:58]anybody
[3:08:59]but the list itself yes where is it
[3:09:03]that there is no list but brad
[3:09:05]brad edwards
[3:09:06]said that he created the list about
[3:09:09]sorry he created a list
[3:09:10]he so in that book that alfredo
[3:09:13]rodrique is produced that became
[3:09:15]evidence exhibit 52 in my trial
[3:09:18]have markings all over it circles and
[3:09:20]dots and whatnot
[3:09:22]and al brad edwards says that he got
[3:09:26]alfredo rodrique's to mark up the
[3:09:28]book of
[3:09:30]all the people who were involved it
[3:09:32]includes
[3:09:33]alan dershowitz for the record
[3:09:34]who's marked i don't remember what it
[3:09:36]does with donald trump i i don't
[3:09:38]i don't know you'd have to look i
[3:09:39]don't have it
[3:09:42]but um i believe so what he did he
[3:09:47]marked up
[3:09:48]i don't know somebody marked up that
[3:09:49]book of names and i think all the
[3:09:51]names of the people that they went
[3:09:53]for
[3:09:54]were originally selected between two
[3:09:57]sources one was this
[3:09:59]alleged book of names and one
[3:10:02]was also from the telephone logs
[3:10:04]that were collected from
[3:10:05]the house in palm beach and just to
[3:10:08]finish it off
[3:10:10]um there is a note um i have
[3:10:14]some papers for you if you wanted
[3:10:15]them where
[3:10:17]brad edwards says that he has a list
[3:10:19]of 25 men that he got money off
[3:10:25]so okay so so so the list that
[3:10:28]everybody the
[3:10:29]black book the list what what you're
[3:10:31]saying is that
[3:10:32]your your your exhibit 52 from your
[3:10:35]trial which is
[3:10:37]like a more of an address book a
[3:10:39]rolodex type thing
[3:10:40]that mr rodriguez alfredo rodriguez
[3:10:44]your understanding is that somewhere
[3:10:45]along the way he went through and
[3:10:47]kind of marked that list
[3:10:48]to say i don't know where that book
[3:10:49]actually comes from
[3:10:51]okay i don't know what that book is
[3:10:53]that book is some type of a
[3:10:55]compilation
[3:10:56]but what it is is it's just pieces
[3:10:58]of paper with type so if you had
[3:11:02]you could have made a list i could
[3:11:04]put
[3:11:06]but you're referring to something
[3:11:08]that's been public for a long if
[3:11:09]we're thinking about the same thing
[3:11:11]you're talking about the you're right
[3:11:13]it's like a bunch of different types
[3:11:14]of paper
[3:11:16]or whatever i only have a copy of it
[3:11:18]but
[3:11:19]with big parts of it redacted
[3:11:21]publicly because yes people's
[3:11:22]addresses yes that's what i'm talking
[3:11:24]about okay
[3:11:26]so it oh perfect yes so you will
[3:11:29]find we're looking at
[3:11:30]exhibit 52 now okay so you're
[3:11:32]looking at exhibit 52 so
[3:11:35]the one they produced they the
[3:11:37]southern district of new york actually
[3:11:38]produced a book
[3:11:39]for me to see it as evidence the
[3:11:41]actual thing it was
[3:11:43]and i it has marks it has tabs it
[3:11:47]has things there's names i've never
[3:11:48]seen
[3:11:49]it had like that list of those that
[3:11:51]list
[3:11:52]was basically the names that they
[3:11:56]choose to produce a trial now in
[3:11:58]rosteen adams firm
[3:12:01]i also have some documents where
[3:12:03]rosteen
[3:12:04]his his original scheme
[3:12:08]rosteen adler was to place prostitutes
[3:12:11]he had a
[3:12:12]a bar a dancy bar where he had girls
[3:12:16]and i believe he would use them and
[3:12:18]put them as
[3:12:19]fake secretaries in people's offices
[3:12:22]and then
[3:12:23]she might touch him or he might touch
[3:12:24]her or something and boom he got
[3:12:26]25 000 for that
[3:12:28]and those girls i'm not saying that
[3:12:30]those are the girls that came in
[3:12:32]epstein's
[3:12:33]case necessarily
[3:12:37]but the so um
[3:12:42]so but again let's like so we're
[3:12:45]separating
[3:12:47]the evidence that came in at your
[3:12:49]trial
[3:12:51]and what you just talked about with
[3:12:54]brad edwards and mr rodriguez
[3:12:57]um during the time that you were
[3:13:00]with mr epstein
[3:13:02]and even in the 2000s when you were
[3:13:04]around
[3:13:05]less frequently you never
[3:13:08]observed your you never saw any sort
[3:13:12]of list or black book or
[3:13:14]a list of individuals who um
[3:13:18]you know linked to certain masseuses
[3:13:20]or anything like that absolutely
[3:13:23]no there is no list
[3:13:27]there is no i'm not aware of any
[3:13:30]blackmail i i never heard i never
[3:13:33]heard that i never saw it and i never
[3:13:36]i never imagined it
[3:13:39]um while we're on this topic just
[3:13:43]again i know we're jumping around and
[3:13:45]we've been going out for a while so
[3:13:47]i apologize but um there's recently
[3:13:49]been reports about a birthday book
[3:13:52]that you assembled for mr epstein i
[3:13:54]think for his
[3:13:56]50th birthday in 2003 that's true
[3:13:59]what do you what do you know about
[3:14:01]book so um my mum did a birthday book
[3:14:09]for my father at his 60th
[3:14:12]and when i epstein would talk about
[3:14:16]his 50th he said i don't know what i'm
[3:14:17]going to do and i said well there's a
[3:14:19]nice thing is my mum did this book
[3:14:20]for my dad he said i love that idea
[3:14:23]he said um can you help
[3:14:27]coordinate it and he organized
[3:14:31]who he called a lot of the people
[3:14:34]i coordinated the putting together of
[3:14:37]the book
[3:14:37]and some in some instances i call
[3:14:40]people that ask them to contribute
[3:14:41]what was in the book like what was
[3:14:43]the ask of the of the
[3:14:44]people you call it's his 50th
[3:14:47]birthday same thing you want on a
[3:14:48]piece of paper
[3:14:49]okay i mean nothing more right i
[3:14:52]mean it was an obvious question but
[3:14:53]you basically his
[3:14:55]folks were invited to send something to
[3:14:57]you to celebrate
[3:14:59]his birthday yes to say happy
[3:15:00]birthday with like
[3:15:02]wonderful day or something else there
[3:15:05]was no
[3:15:06]there was no ask but i wasn't
[3:15:08]responsible for everybody in that book
[3:15:10]and there were people that he would
[3:15:12]ask himself to contribute do you
[3:15:15]remember
[3:15:16]some do you remember specific names of
[3:15:19]individuals who did send letters
[3:15:21]or who did contribute it's been so
[3:15:27]long
[3:15:27]i want to tell you today i don't
[3:15:30]remember
[3:15:31]do you honestly don't remember the
[3:15:33]article talks about
[3:15:34]several names but including the folks
[3:15:37]the article which is on
[3:15:38]donald trump do you remember president
[3:15:41]trump submitting
[3:15:41]a letter or a card or a note
[3:15:45]i don't do you think the articles
[3:15:49]well do you remember seeing
[3:15:55]that book or any portion of the
[3:15:57]letters
[3:15:58]in your discovery of new york yes
[3:16:01]okay what do you remember seeing i
[3:16:02]remember
[3:16:03]um there was there were some portions of
[3:16:09]that book
[3:16:10]but what surprised me yeah
[3:16:14]what surprised me was how few there
[3:16:16]were
[3:16:17]because i thought if you had those
[3:16:19]where are the rest
[3:16:21]there was none of mr trump
[3:16:24]in your discovery in my discovery
[3:16:26]sorry president trump like there was
[3:16:28]nothing from and do you remember
[3:16:31]but separate apart from your
[3:16:33]discovery do you remember one where
[3:16:34]the other whether president trump
[3:16:36]submitted a letter for his 50th birthday
[3:16:38]i do not remember
[3:16:39]um and the the article that references
[3:16:42]the letter
[3:16:43]talks about um like that sounds like
[3:16:48]either naked a picture of naked woman
[3:16:49]or something like like that
[3:16:51]do you have any recollection of that
[3:16:52]i do not
[3:16:54]wait just no i don't
[3:16:57]um do you remember so what do you
[3:17:03]remember seeing from your discovery
[3:17:04]around the
[3:17:05]the book like you said portions of it
[3:17:07]or some of the things i remember
[3:17:10]but there were maybe that's i just want
[3:17:15]to say about the discovery
[3:17:16]that i had about maybe this is an
[3:17:20]exaggeration
[3:17:21]i'm not sure but in my mind it's
[3:17:22]about close to five million page
[3:17:24]five million documents it was a lot
[3:17:27]and of that giant document dump that
[3:17:30]i received
[3:17:32]i was only at maybe as much as 30
[3:17:35]to 35 percent i was never able to
[3:17:37]access
[3:17:38]and this is documented on at the court
[3:17:42]and so i cannot say that i saw
[3:17:45]everything because i didn't
[3:17:46]yeah okay i just want you to know that
[3:17:49]and i think that that was by design
[3:17:51]but you but you do remember
[3:17:54]i do remember some seeing some pages
[3:17:56]i do yes
[3:17:57]okay do you remember what pages you
[3:17:59]saw
[3:18:00]like from it was from who who had
[3:18:02]written those letters or no
[3:18:04]i really don't remember sorry it's
[3:18:06]okay
[3:18:09]did you did you and or so the same
[3:18:13]questions we've asked about some other
[3:18:14]individuals
[3:18:16]did you have did you meet bill gates
[3:18:18]over the years
[3:18:19]yes um because of your relationship
[3:18:21]with mr abstain or separate
[3:18:23]that one well i met mr gate i went
[3:18:26]to the tech
[3:18:27]conference i think i went to take
[3:18:28]conference and i actually spoke at
[3:18:30]the tech conference
[3:18:31]and not the main stage the
[3:18:32]substage and i also gave several
[3:18:34]ted exes but
[3:18:36]and i met him there but we were
[3:18:37]planning and i actually did
[3:18:39]meet him
[3:18:42]uh because i knew his
[3:18:45]i don't know if he's chief of staff
[3:18:47]or whoever boris and
[3:18:50]i met him i think once i i may have
[3:18:53]met him actually at 71st street
[3:18:56]i i may have once i don't remember
[3:18:59]if i met him there or at a
[3:19:00]restaurant i don't remember
[3:19:01]and that would have been because of
[3:19:04]epstein because epstein was friendly
[3:19:05]with boris and boris
[3:19:07]that's all i remember do you know
[3:19:08]whether um mr gates
[3:19:11]traveled with mr abstain on his plane
[3:19:13]to any of his houses
[3:19:15]so if that that friendship was
[3:19:17]after you know
[3:19:19]was in the late 2000s so if i met
[3:19:21]him like i said i went to epstein's
[3:19:23]house maybe once or twice
[3:19:24]i maybe met him there i don't
[3:19:25]remember so you don't so i
[3:19:27]wouldn't know if he had been on
[3:19:29]epstein and you weren't you don't
[3:19:30]recall ever being on a plane with
[3:19:31]him flying to the island or two
[3:19:33]anywhere no
[3:19:35]um do you know somebody named reid
[3:19:40]hoffman
[3:19:41]i do who's that reid's a silicon valley
[3:19:44]guy
[3:19:45]is what silicon valley and
[3:19:48]how do you know him um through my
[3:19:50]friends in san francisco
[3:19:51]i have uh i used to have a very
[3:19:53]close friend who was in san francisco
[3:19:55]who's part of that whole
[3:19:56]i've several actually or had so is
[3:19:59]that a relationship you have kind of
[3:20:01]separate and apart from mr abstain
[3:20:03]separate do you know whether um mr
[3:20:06]abstain
[3:20:07]had a relationship with reid hoffman i
[3:20:09]don't know did you ever observe mr
[3:20:11]hoffman
[3:20:13]flying anywhere with you or mr
[3:20:14]abstain um or giving massages
[3:20:19]um so there was there's a list
[3:20:37]a list of multiple masseuses that
[3:20:40]that is floating around i think you
[3:20:41]had a new discovery i think you were
[3:20:42]just talking about that
[3:20:44]um that list do you know
[3:20:49]how that list was created no
[3:20:53]that all that stuff that came out of
[3:20:54]that book
[3:20:56]i now find suspect it's as far as
[3:20:58]part of the story you just told us
[3:20:59]yes now i'm not saying it's all fake
[3:21:02]i don't know what's real what's not
[3:21:03]i don't know what name is true now
[3:21:05]that it's been
[3:21:06]to my mind anyway now that it has
[3:21:08]been
[3:21:10]without a doubt contaminated and
[3:21:12]possibly fraudulent
[3:21:14]i i i'm not i don't know i mean
[3:21:17]obviously the numbers that i
[3:21:18]recognize in my own those are real
[3:21:20]but how it was actually ended up put
[3:21:22]together and compiled
[3:21:24]and the purposes for it for which
[3:21:26]then they blackmailed my boyfriend
[3:21:28]now i'm just over the years
[3:21:31]when you were back serving as like
[3:21:34]the general manager so the
[3:21:35]mid-90s all the way into the 2000s
[3:21:38]did you or do you know whether
[3:21:40]anyone maintained a list of all the
[3:21:42]masseuses like a running list so
[3:21:45]there would have so there's two things
[3:21:47]well three ways so
[3:21:48]i know that the house itself
[3:21:53]john alessi had a rolodex
[3:21:56]that he kept the names and numbers of
[3:21:58]all the
[3:22:00]people that came to the house so that
[3:22:02]he could call
[3:22:03]so because i only was with epstein
[3:22:06]even at best half the time so
[3:22:10]when i was there he had like his chief
[3:22:13]of staff who could find whatever he
[3:22:15]needed when i wasn't there he had to
[3:22:16]learn somebody else right so be that
[3:22:18]john alessi or whoever else
[3:22:21]so everybody whoever was traveling
[3:22:24]with him or however wherever he was
[3:22:25]he needed somebody else to access
[3:22:27]information so
[3:22:28]he had an assistant chief
[3:22:32]who was his secretary who would be the
[3:22:34]one that would update his
[3:22:36]his computer you know like everybody
[3:22:39]has an address but
[3:22:41]but was was what you're describing
[3:22:44]which i'm not it makes sense i'm just
[3:22:47]was that a list of masseuses or a
[3:22:50]list of
[3:22:51]people that might need to be contacted
[3:22:54]which would necessarily include a
[3:22:56]lot of masseuses that's the latter
[3:22:59]um and did you
[3:23:06]did you update that like were you
[3:23:07]part of were you one of the people
[3:23:08]that would would add names to it like
[3:23:10]if a masseuse came and leaves and
[3:23:13]Mr. Epstein says yes she was good would
[3:23:16]you be part like how was the list kind
[3:23:17]of maintained or who maintained it
[3:23:20]typically no because there would be an
[3:23:23]assistant who would do that
[3:23:25]plus Epstein would not allow me to
[3:23:27]answer the telephone
[3:23:29]ever so or maintain or keep any of
[3:23:32]his messages
[3:23:34]in the office or at the house so
[3:23:37]typically that wouldn't be because i
[3:23:39]wouldn't be the one
[3:23:41]could i say to you i never did no of
[3:23:42]course not because that
[3:23:44]just seems ludicrous but as a rule of
[3:23:47]thumb
[3:23:48]the answer would be no um
[3:23:53]during the 2007-89
[3:23:56]investigated the investigation out of
[3:23:58]the southern district florida
[3:24:00]so you said that you weren't
[3:24:02]contacted by law enforcement
[3:24:04]after Mr. Epstein was charged did
[3:24:06]you have
[3:24:07]conversations with him about the
[3:24:09]investigation
[3:24:11]he never talked to me about it did you
[3:24:15]um i mean i can't let's put this way
[3:24:19]if he did i have no recollection of it
[3:24:21]i mean i'm sure he must have said
[3:24:23]this is all whatever he said or it's
[3:24:25]nothing or i mean
[3:24:26]i just don't have any i just don't
[3:24:31]have any memory i mean i just i was
[3:24:33]i was with ted my i was like gone i
[3:24:36]mean
[3:24:37]plus i just didn't want to know either
[3:24:41]so you don't know firsthand why
[3:24:44]the u.s attorney in florida made the
[3:24:47]deal that he did
[3:24:49]meaning you weren't part of that
[3:24:50]discussion along the way like Mr.
[3:24:52]Epstein didn't say
[3:24:53]i'm getting a good deal or you know
[3:24:56]i
[3:24:57]something's happening with the case
[3:24:58]that's very good you were you you
[3:25:00]to the extent you know anything
[3:25:01]about it it's
[3:25:01]just from what you've heard or read
[3:25:04]from others not from Mr. Epstein is
[3:25:06]that right
[3:25:06]he never talked about the
[3:25:07]non-prosecution directly with me
[3:25:09]but um he did
[3:25:13]but it's still enforceable as to her
[3:25:17]i mean he never said hey do you are
[3:25:18]you happy with this deal
[3:25:20]like that but i understood
[3:25:24]i he never he never enjoined me
[3:25:28]to the mpa but i understand
[3:25:31]that he included me specifically and
[3:25:34]i'll tell you why
[3:25:35]well it's okay you don't need to
[3:25:37]get into that
[3:25:38]i don't want to talk about the legal
[3:25:39]yeah the the what's on appeal i'm just
[3:25:42]no i wouldn't
[3:25:43]what the the reason for my question
[3:25:44]just to be
[3:25:45]i'm not trying to hide something
[3:25:47]there's there's a very strong belief
[3:25:50]that he got a very good deal
[3:25:53]and that and and that he should
[3:25:55]he should have been sentenced to
[3:25:58]more time or
[3:25:59]got a different sentence from the feds
[3:26:01]in a non-prosecution agreement
[3:26:02]and i'm not asking you to apply on
[3:26:04]that but i'm wondering whether
[3:26:08]he ever talked to you about that but it
[3:26:09]sounds like he didn't
[3:26:12]that he got a good deal no i think
[3:26:14]actually
[3:26:15]well his comments that i've read was
[3:26:17]that he didn't get a good deal and i
[3:26:19]think that the
[3:26:19]you know when he fought it so hard
[3:26:21]it's because he didn't think he did
[3:26:23]when when he was serving a
[3:26:24]sentence
[3:26:26]were you ever were you around
[3:26:27]during that time like when he was
[3:26:28]allowed to leave during the day
[3:26:30]or travel during the day
[3:26:32]i never called him i never saw him and
[3:26:35]i never went to the jail
[3:26:38]um so i'm going to ask you questions
[3:26:41]that
[3:26:42]you shouldn't read into them i just
[3:26:43]want to know whether you whether
[3:26:44]whether they they resonate with you
[3:26:47]um have you ever had any contact
[3:26:49]with
[3:26:51]any representative that you know of
[3:26:53]from massad
[3:26:55]the israeli intelligence agency can you
[3:26:56]ask me that again
[3:26:57]has if you have had any contact
[3:26:59]with an individual that you understand
[3:27:02]to be from
[3:27:03]massad an israeli intelligence agency
[3:27:06]well not deliberately
[3:27:07]pardon me not deliberately okay um
[3:27:10]and did you know we asked this we
[3:27:12]talked about a little bit earlier but
[3:27:13]just to put a finer point on it
[3:27:15]did you ever know that mr did you
[3:27:18]ever
[3:27:18]were you ever told you ever think
[3:27:19]that mr epstein was getting any money
[3:27:22]from any intelligence agency including
[3:27:24]massad
[3:27:26]i i don't believe so but i wouldn't
[3:27:28]know
[3:27:29]i mean i would be very surprised if you
[3:27:32]did i don't think so
[3:27:33]no we've talked about a lot of names
[3:27:39]and i'm sure we've
[3:27:40]there's some that we haven't covered
[3:27:42]are there any um foreign nationals
[3:27:46]so right now we've talked about um
[3:27:50]some british the royal family a
[3:27:52]little bit and
[3:27:53]maybe high society folks in britain
[3:27:55]were there any international um
[3:28:00]businessmen or politicians that that
[3:28:02]had a very close relationship or a
[3:28:04]close relationship with mr epstein
[3:28:06]that we haven't already talked about
[3:28:12]off the top of my head i can think of
[3:28:13]the hood brock
[3:28:20]you said that mr seen at some point
[3:28:22]in the night
[3:28:24]mid to late 90s he started taking
[3:28:25]testosterone
[3:28:26]did you ever know him to take any
[3:28:28]other drugs
[3:28:32]no i mean he took pills for his heart
[3:28:36]i think
[3:28:38]but i don't know other no
[3:28:39]substances
[3:28:41]what do you know anything about his
[3:28:43]heart condition i know we talked about
[3:28:45]this at
[3:28:46]you know 9 45 this morning but do
[3:28:48]anything about his heart conditioning
[3:28:49]beyond that you understood he had a
[3:28:51]heart condition that affected his
[3:28:52]ability to um
[3:28:54]to have sex other than what he told
[3:28:57]me no he never shared anything but he
[3:28:59]did take pills i don't know
[3:29:01]i don't know anything about that and
[3:29:03]like i said he did the testosterone
[3:29:05]which made him lean
[3:29:09]and we're jumping around a little bit
[3:29:10]sorry um do you know somebody named
[3:29:13]donald bar
[3:29:15]no he is i can represent to you
[3:29:19]um was the former headmaster of the
[3:29:21]dalton school
[3:29:22]which you mentioned earlier all right
[3:29:24]um do you remember any conversations
[3:29:27]with me i've seen about
[3:29:28]um a book that mr bar wrote called
[3:29:31]space relations
[3:29:33]i've never heard about about aliens
[3:29:35]and sex
[3:29:37]okay um do you know whether
[3:29:43]well have you ever met the former
[3:29:44]attorney general of the united states
[3:29:46]bill bar
[3:29:47]no um do you remember whether mr
[3:29:50]epstein knew him or whether his name
[3:29:52]ever came up in conversations you had
[3:29:54]with mr epstein
[3:29:56]i don't i don't recall any um
[3:30:04]did you have a relationship or no i'm
[3:30:07]using relationship with i appreciate
[3:30:08]you don't like that word
[3:30:10]did you know um
[3:30:13]mr epstein's um brother
[3:30:16]mark epstein yes how did you know him
[3:30:18]through jeffrey
[3:30:20]um how would you describe your
[3:30:22]relationship close friendly
[3:30:24]my personal yes um
[3:30:28]not that close but friendly enough
[3:30:32]i mean you know how was
[3:30:36]jeffrey epstein's relationship with
[3:30:37]his brother mark from what you
[3:30:39]observed
[3:30:40]i mean they were brotherly but i
[3:30:42]think
[3:30:44]that i don't know their periods when
[3:30:51]they were closer and then when they
[3:30:53]weren't
[3:30:54]i think sometimes uh epstein found his
[3:30:58]brother irritating
[3:31:01]um and i think i know the answer is
[3:31:05]given what you just said about
[3:31:07]bill bar but did you ever hear any
[3:31:12]from mr epstein or anybody else that
[3:31:14]that bill bar had any role in mr
[3:31:17]epstein getting a good plea deal
[3:31:19]in florida or any role in that process
[3:31:22]with mr acosta
[3:31:24]i never heard that um
[3:31:30]i think you said this in an
[3:31:31]interview but if i'm wrong
[3:31:34]forgive me um do you have a view of
[3:31:38]mr epstein um of whether he
[3:31:42]committed suicide or whether
[3:31:44]something else happened
[3:31:49]can can we take a break yeah sure
[3:31:53]actually it's a good time to take a
[3:31:54]break anyway because this will be the
[3:31:55]last one of the day
[3:31:57]all right so we're going to take a
[3:31:58]break at it's 2 53
[3:32:00]thursday july 24th we are continuing
[3:32:04]with the recorded proffer of
[3:32:06]miss maxwell the time is now 3 10
[3:32:10]p.m
[3:32:11]thursday july 24th my colleagues
[3:32:17]alerted me to a couple questions i
[3:32:18]think i may have forgotten to ask
[3:32:20]you
[3:32:21]um one is well
[3:32:32]we talked two minutes ago about this
[3:32:33]birthday book that there's been press
[3:32:34]about
[3:32:36]i understand you don't remember
[3:32:37]anything with president trump or a lot
[3:32:39]about the book anyway
[3:32:40]um do you remember asking
[3:32:44]president trump to submit a letter
[3:32:46]for that
[3:32:47]i did not um
[3:32:50]and do you remember um
[3:32:54]would you have been the one to do
[3:32:55]that or could somebody else would
[3:32:56]somebody else had done that
[3:32:59]um i did ask some people i don't
[3:33:03]remember
[3:33:04]mr trump i don't remember who i did
[3:33:05]ask but epstein also asked people
[3:33:07]himself directly
[3:33:09]so it could have happened that way if
[3:33:11]it happened at all
[3:33:24]where is that you mentioned ehud
[3:33:27]barak
[3:33:28]yes what was his involvement
[3:33:32]this would have been in the later
[3:33:36]2000s so i do not know
[3:33:39]um how they met but i do know
[3:33:43]that that they i don't know friendly
[3:33:46]would be the right word i don't i
[3:33:47]don't know that but i know that
[3:33:49]they saw each other and only because
[3:33:51]um my father you know anything that
[3:33:57]touches israel
[3:33:58]or the state of israel i'm always
[3:34:01]interested in because
[3:34:03]my father loved israel and and so i
[3:34:07]pay attention to it and we have
[3:34:08]ties to you know to israel
[3:34:10]when you said it was later though
[3:34:11]ties meaning friends and family
[3:34:14]relations was prominent was
[3:34:17]mr barak prince barak do you know
[3:34:19]what the nature of his relationship
[3:34:21]was with mr epstein
[3:34:23]i don't do you know were you ever
[3:34:26]with them
[3:34:27]together i think i met i have a
[3:34:31]memory
[3:34:31]of uh meeting ehud but i don't know
[3:34:34]if he was with epstein or
[3:34:36]i don't remember i just know that i
[3:34:37]did see him and i i'm trying
[3:34:39]struggling to remember the context
[3:34:41]around it
[3:34:42]but if i it i'm sure it happened but it
[3:34:45]must have been very brief
[3:34:46]because i i don't have any serious
[3:34:48]memory of it any like
[3:34:50]deep memory of that and maybe this is
[3:34:53]obvious maybe it comes also because
[3:34:54]i've read it in the press that may
[3:34:56]be something that brought it to my
[3:34:57]memory so that's also
[3:34:58]i mean i'm also i think the press
[3:35:00]has been very contaminating
[3:35:02]so i just it's hard sometimes to
[3:35:04]separate
[3:35:05]those stories from your memory
[3:35:08]sometimes do you know um
[3:35:11]a british gymnast by the name of heather
[3:35:14]man
[3:35:15]yes did did she got to know she was a
[3:35:18]gymnast
[3:35:19]oh okay i'm reading something that
[3:35:21]said she was a gymnast but
[3:35:22]okay i don't know please don't assume
[3:35:24]that that's correct okay
[3:35:25]based upon my words okay um did she
[3:35:28]ever
[3:35:29]travel with you and or mr epstein i
[3:35:31]think yeah she did actually i think
[3:35:33]that she met him
[3:35:34]one of mr epstein's girlfriends at
[3:35:36]some point
[3:35:37]um what again i know we're talking about
[3:35:40]time periods that are vast
[3:35:41]what time period would that have been
[3:35:45]like after you like since 2000
[3:35:49]i wanted to say could be the 90 could
[3:35:54]be the 90s i don't know
[3:35:55]but i mean listen there are people
[3:35:56]that pop out of the woodwork all the
[3:35:58]time i just saw one on tv saying
[3:36:00]she was his girlfriend in
[3:36:01]93 and 94 so i mean
[3:36:04]he obviously was very busy
[3:36:08]um where she's lying what was that
[3:36:12]did had someone named mark middleton
[3:36:16]yes i remember him he was um in
[3:36:19]the mr clinton's administration
[3:36:22]president clinton's i think and how
[3:36:24]do you do you know him
[3:36:26]well i met him and that is i met him
[3:36:28]through mr epstein
[3:36:30]um and do you was he
[3:36:33]from what you observed was he a
[3:36:35]friend or business acquaintance with
[3:36:37]mr epstein
[3:36:40]um i mean i only saw him a handful of
[3:36:45]times but i did see him with him and
[3:36:47]seemed friendly
[3:36:48]i don't know if i would characterize i
[3:36:51]mean having seen him briefly i don't
[3:36:53]know how to characterize that do you
[3:36:55]know whether he like flew on airplanes
[3:36:56]with mr epstein did he visit the
[3:36:58]island do you know anything about that
[3:36:59]or their relations as it relates to
[3:37:01]that i never i don't have any
[3:37:03]recollection of seeing mark
[3:37:04]middleton at the island
[3:37:07]um how about former u.s senator
[3:37:09]george mitchell
[3:37:10]yeah i do remember george what do you
[3:37:12]remember about him i traveled with him
[3:37:15]we went to the most
[3:37:17]memorable day i went to well i i was
[3:37:21]friendly with his wife
[3:37:22]start with that with heather and
[3:37:25]heather was in new york so i hung out
[3:37:27]with her a few times we had dinners
[3:37:29]and i was just friendly i would say
[3:37:31]separately with separately from her
[3:37:33]husband i'm had
[3:37:34]was friends with heather i met i
[3:37:36]met heather through her husband but
[3:37:37]we became friends you became friends
[3:37:39]with heather yes it was mr epstein
[3:37:42]friends with
[3:37:43]um mr mitchell yes did they travel
[3:37:46]together
[3:37:47]besides new york did they travel to
[3:37:49]the island or to new mexico i don't
[3:37:51]remember george ever at the island
[3:37:52]but the most memorable check
[3:37:54]i do recall with senator was to
[3:37:57]italy
[3:37:58]was to where to italy ah okay we
[3:38:00]went to rome
[3:38:02]as um the four of you so heather
[3:38:05]and mr mitchell and you and mr
[3:38:06]epstein that's my recollection
[3:38:09]and what were you there for just well
[3:38:12]the most memorable aspect of that
[3:38:14]trip is we went to the vatican
[3:38:17]it was extraordinary but the most
[3:38:19]extraordinary thing was going to the
[3:38:20]up to the archives and holding henry
[3:38:23]v8's
[3:38:25]document to the pope asking his
[3:38:28]divorce um do you know the former
[3:38:34]president of columbia andres
[3:38:35]pastrana yes how do you know him i
[3:38:42]met andres pastrana in a pub in
[3:38:44]dublin
[3:38:49]he travel with mr epstein that you
[3:38:52]know
[3:38:55]um i don't i don't know if if
[3:39:02]i don't know if he was ever on the
[3:39:03]plane i don't know if he ever i
[3:39:05]don't think he ever came to the
[3:39:06]island
[3:39:07]but um i went
[3:39:11]two places with um andres pastrana
[3:39:15]one was to columbia and etsteen
[3:39:17]came to that
[3:39:18]and the other was to cuba and etsteen
[3:39:21]pastrana was
[3:39:23]i think was there and what were the
[3:39:25]purposes of traveling to
[3:39:26]to columbia then cuba um
[3:39:32]i'm a helicopter pilot and
[3:39:41]andres is a helicopter pilot
[3:39:45]and um we just became friends
[3:39:50]and i flew a black hawk
[3:39:53]in columbia and how about to cuba
[3:39:58]um my i have a friend of mine who
[3:40:02]uh was the cigar distributor for
[3:40:06]um montecristmas maybe i can't
[3:40:10]remember which cigar it was
[3:40:12]and uh so my dad and he organized
[3:40:16]the trip and um
[3:40:17]we met fidel castro when was that
[3:40:21]approximately
[3:40:29]had to be had to be 2002 2003
[3:40:41]okay something like that i think
[3:40:43]there's some more names that we might
[3:40:46]talk about tomorrow with the same
[3:40:48]type of questions just
[3:40:50]but as far as a catch-all there's been
[3:40:54]a tremendous amount of public
[3:40:57]information about
[3:40:58]all kinds of names including some of
[3:41:00]the folks we talked about today
[3:41:03]and their relationship with mr epstein
[3:41:05]and or you um for for any of the folks
[3:41:08]that we've talked about today
[3:41:10]did you observe
[3:41:14]them doing anything improper with mr
[3:41:16]epstein whether with masseuses or
[3:41:18]with women who were girls who were
[3:41:20]traveling
[3:41:22]or at the residences that they were
[3:41:23]at or at the parties that they were
[3:41:25]at
[3:41:25]i did not ever at any time see that
[3:41:28]um and for any of the names we've
[3:41:32]talked about today
[3:41:34]and then tomorrow we'll talk about some
[3:41:35]more but for today
[3:41:37]do you recall having any conversations
[3:41:39]with anybody else
[3:41:41]or they reported to you that they
[3:41:42]had seen something that one of these
[3:41:44]individuals have done whether
[3:41:46]someone else that works with mr
[3:41:47]epstein or somebody that observed
[3:41:49]something
[3:41:50]if anybody had ever reported
[3:41:52]anything but first of all the
[3:41:53]answer that is no
[3:41:54]and also i just want to be clear
[3:41:55]that had anybody ever reported
[3:41:57]anything illegal
[3:41:58]or disgusting like that i would have
[3:42:03]immediately done something and i never
[3:42:06]heard it
[3:42:06]i never saw it and no one ever ever
[3:42:08]ever complained to me or tears
[3:42:10]nothing like okay all right so
[3:42:13]we took a break when we're talking
[3:42:14]about um mr epstein and his death
[3:42:17]oh bless you that's okay take your
[3:42:20]time
[3:42:25]um so mr epstein
[3:42:28]and his um death so
[3:42:32]you were not obviously at the mcc
[3:42:37]during that time correct thank you
[3:42:45]just take some water it's okay no
[3:42:46]problem um
[3:42:49]you were not at the mcc during that
[3:42:51]time correct i was not
[3:42:53]so you're gonna tell us what you
[3:42:56]believe
[3:42:58]but just i just want to make sure i
[3:42:59]understand
[3:43:01]your basis for belief is kind of what
[3:43:03]you've
[3:43:04]read and seen and your knowledge of
[3:43:06]mr up seen for the many years you
[3:43:08]knew them knew him right
[3:43:10]um and actually there's a third
[3:43:11]component okay the answer that is yes
[3:43:13]and there's a third component which
[3:43:15]is uh
[3:43:17]having experience now
[3:43:20]uh the mismanagement and
[3:43:25]inefficiencies and total dereliction
[3:43:28]of duty
[3:43:29]at the bureau of prisons from bop from
[3:43:31]different okay fair okay so
[3:43:34]you know i want to what i do want to be
[3:43:36]careful about
[3:43:39]is you know asking you to speculate
[3:43:43]because because anybody can do that
[3:43:46]and and i don't think that's fair
[3:43:47]to you or anybody else asks you to
[3:43:49]give us your kind of
[3:43:50]opinion but um
[3:43:54]do you think that the third point
[3:43:56]you say which is
[3:43:57]which is kind of a failure by the
[3:44:00]there's been a lot of
[3:44:02]there's an oig report there's stny
[3:44:04]investigation about that
[3:44:06]um do you so you think he was he was
[3:44:09]he did not die by suicide given all
[3:44:11]the things we just talked about
[3:44:12]i do not believe he died by suicide
[3:44:14]yeah and do you believe that um
[3:44:18]do you have any speculation or view
[3:44:20]of who
[3:44:22]killed him i no i don't and i ask
[3:44:25]that because
[3:44:29]if you don't believe that there's
[3:44:31]any truth to the allegations of
[3:44:33]blackmail
[3:44:34]or um that he had kind of a list or
[3:44:37]that he had reasons
[3:44:39]to have people hate him
[3:44:43]um why would somebody kill him in
[3:44:45]prison
[3:44:52]in prison where i am
[3:44:57]they will kill you or they will pay
[3:45:01]somebody can pay a prisoner to kill
[3:45:03]you
[3:45:04]for 25 dollars worth of commissary
[3:45:12]is about the going rate for a hit
[3:45:15]with a lock
[3:45:16]today so that goes to the the third
[3:45:19]reason which is kind of the
[3:45:21]mismanagement or the the short
[3:45:24]fallings or shortcomings of the
[3:45:26]bureau of prisons yes um
[3:45:29]which is a little bit different than
[3:45:30]my or my question is which is um
[3:45:35]do you think there's somebody on the
[3:45:36]outside of prison so putting aside
[3:45:39]what could happen on the inside on the
[3:45:41]outside of prison who would
[3:45:42]who wanted him dead so badly that he
[3:45:44]would have or she would have
[3:45:47]you know cause him to be killed on
[3:45:49]the inside i think that's
[3:45:51]i don't see that i think is it
[3:45:54]possible of course it's possible but
[3:45:56]i don't know of any reason why and
[3:45:57]i don't believe in the blackmail or
[3:45:59]in any of this i don't think epstein
[3:46:02]had a hit on like that if it if it
[3:46:05]is indeed murder i believe it was an
[3:46:07]internal situation
[3:46:09]yeah so you're not you don't have any
[3:46:12]reason first-hand knowledge or even
[3:46:14]speculation it sounds like to think
[3:46:15]that um
[3:46:18]that he was if that he was killed
[3:46:21]to kind of silence him or to keep
[3:46:22]him from going public about
[3:46:24]people he he knew about i don't know
[3:46:27]because i
[3:46:28]i i think that is just part of the
[3:46:32]story that's been created that
[3:46:34]started back in 2008-9
[3:46:40]yeah i mean that's the point like i
[3:46:42]don't want i don't think there's value
[3:46:43]in talking
[3:46:45]you know there's there's been a lot
[3:46:46]of there's a lot of information about
[3:46:48]what happened you know
[3:46:50]but what is important to me is is
[3:46:52]whether
[3:46:54]you know if is the idea that
[3:46:57]that he didn't die by suicide that's
[3:47:00]one thing but
[3:47:01]if to the extent that folks believe
[3:47:04]that he was murdered
[3:47:05]to keep him quiet or because he had
[3:47:08]information on
[3:47:09]rich and powerful people that's what i
[3:47:11]do you have any reason to believe
[3:47:12]that that's true
[3:47:13]i do not i have any reason to
[3:47:15]believe that and i
[3:47:17]i also think it's ludicrous because
[3:47:19]if that i also happen to think if
[3:47:21]that is what they wanted they would
[3:47:22]have had plenty of opportunity when
[3:47:24]he wasn't in jail
[3:47:25]if they were worried about blackmail
[3:47:28]or anything
[3:47:29]from him he would have been a very
[3:47:31]easy target
[3:47:34]in the time so we talked about
[3:47:37]a lot of time all the way up through
[3:47:39]2009-10 and then
[3:47:41]your your the time that after
[3:47:43]misreporting was arrested
[3:47:44]when's the last time you spoke with
[3:47:46]him maybe
[3:47:58]2016 2017 maybe
[3:48:01]2016 2015 2016 2017 in that
[3:48:05]area i believe and what what
[3:48:08]when you're thinking about that last
[3:48:10]time was that
[3:48:11]you had talked been talking a lot
[3:48:13]and then you stopped or was that
[3:48:14]a one-off time and it was infrequent
[3:48:17]at that point
[3:48:17]i really wasn't in communication the
[3:48:19]only communications i had with him was
[3:48:21]in
[3:48:21]with regards to the civil suits that
[3:48:24]the civil suit that found myself in
[3:48:25]the defamation suit i found myself in
[3:48:27]i needed help i needed information
[3:48:30]and i i didn't have what
[3:48:34]i needed and so
[3:48:39]that was really what it was that
[3:48:41]what drove it was
[3:48:42]me trying to get myself out of this
[3:48:45]situation
[3:48:46]which i ultimately led to where i am
[3:48:49]today
[3:48:49]and so when when all that when that
[3:48:52]i don't remember even if i stopped
[3:48:54]talking to him before that i think he
[3:48:56]wasn't
[3:48:57]i thought he was angry with me
[3:48:58]anyway he didn't like what i did and
[3:49:00]i wasn't wasn't interested in what he
[3:49:02]had to say to me and
[3:49:04]what what did you think he was
[3:49:05]angry with you about i think he was
[3:49:07]angry that i had even said that
[3:49:09]i had referred to her being a liar
[3:49:13]he said i should have not said anything
[3:49:15]but
[3:49:17]um when when
[3:49:21]the civil suits that were ongoing
[3:49:23]before
[3:49:24]mr obscene's death yes
[3:49:28]did your lawyers coordinate with his
[3:49:31]lawyers like in discovery and things
[3:49:33]like that
[3:49:33]i don't i don't think we coordinated
[3:49:35]in this
[3:49:36]i don't i'm not sure okay i i don't
[3:49:38]want to misspeak
[3:49:40]i don't i there was some degree of
[3:49:43]communication
[3:49:44]for sure i just don't know the degree
[3:49:48]that that took place so definitely
[3:49:53]i mean i was definitely hoping for
[3:49:56]him to be more helpful and i was
[3:49:57]definitely
[3:49:59]coordinating is not a good word
[3:50:00]because that sounds like i was
[3:50:01]trying to make
[3:50:02]align myself that's not where we
[3:50:04]were going here but i was definitely
[3:50:05]trying to get help
[3:50:07]as in documents or information that i
[3:50:11]could use to defend myself
[3:50:12]that's 100 true and the degree to
[3:50:15]which that took place
[3:50:19]i'm not i don't i don't recall there
[3:50:20]was definitely some of that though i
[3:50:21]don't i don't want to
[3:50:22]mislead him we touched on this
[3:50:24]earlier but i just want to i don't
[3:50:26]think we
[3:50:28]really ran it to ground maybe as much
[3:50:30]as we could like
[3:50:32]going up through that time you know
[3:50:34]so in the 16 17 18 up until the
[3:50:37]time
[3:50:38]he's arrested um had your view
[3:50:42]or your understanding of what had
[3:50:44]happened
[3:50:45]changed um meaning did you believe
[3:50:49]that
[3:50:50]in the late 90s or early 2000s when
[3:50:54]when he started you know
[3:50:57]behaving much differently did you
[3:50:59]did you believe what you were hearing
[3:51:01]about him at that point
[3:51:05]my views i didn't like the people
[3:51:08]he was with anyway so i i
[3:51:12]i don't find um how i say this
[3:51:19]i don't like i like people who my
[3:51:22]age or older
[3:51:24]and i don't find the society of all
[3:51:27]the companionship of
[3:51:30]younger people who are younger people
[3:51:34]i said that is really
[3:51:36]that enjoyable so
[3:51:40]i don't like the company that he
[3:51:43]chose to be with
[3:51:44]and so i just was kind of boring
[3:51:48]and fundamentally uninteresting
[3:51:51]probably the nicest way i can say yeah
[3:51:55]okay so i think what we should do
[3:52:00]is just spend a few minutes talking
[3:52:02]about tomorrow
[3:52:04]um and everything was great today i
[3:52:06]think that it was very helpful and
[3:52:08]i appreciate you um
[3:52:11]trying to be as complete as you can i
[3:52:14]think
[3:52:15]tomorrow you said a few things today
[3:52:18]about
[3:52:18]materials that you brought um when we're
[3:52:21]done
[3:52:22]we'll give you a few minutes with with
[3:52:24]mr marcus to
[3:52:26]to if there's things that you want
[3:52:28]to show him that you think
[3:52:29]we should see like i said i'm not
[3:52:32]asking you to corroborate anything
[3:52:33]if i was asking you to corroborate
[3:52:34]something i would tell you but if
[3:52:36]there's something you think that
[3:52:38]that you don't think that the
[3:52:39]government has seen or you think that
[3:52:41]was important for me to see
[3:52:44]let mr marcus know and and he can he
[3:52:46]can share it with me
[3:52:49]tomorrow i think we'll we'll certainly
[3:52:51]have some
[3:52:52]follow-on questions when we all think
[3:52:54]about tonight and and i think you will
[3:52:56]too
[3:52:56]you know we can we can all think about
[3:52:58]stuff we've talked about we covered a
[3:52:59]lot of different
[3:53:00]areas we are i do want to talk about
[3:53:03]more about you so um by design today
[3:53:08]we wanted to focus on mr repstein
[3:53:10]and talk about you know kind of
[3:53:13]well everything under the sun that
[3:53:14]we've gone through today
[3:53:17]i do think it's important when when
[3:53:20]we all evaluate what you've said today
[3:53:22]and and kind of your story to
[3:53:25]understand
[3:53:26]to also understand your why you're
[3:53:30]here right so you you were
[3:53:31]indicted you were charged you went to
[3:53:33]trial
[3:53:34]um and and i want to do that in a
[3:53:36]way that
[3:53:37]gives you an opportunity to to say to
[3:53:40]kind of say your piece or to say
[3:53:41]what you you what you haven't said
[3:53:43]before
[3:53:43]um but also understanding that there
[3:53:45]was a
[3:53:46]people who took the witness stand and
[3:53:48]swore to tell the truth and
[3:53:49]testified
[3:53:50]about you and what you did and what
[3:53:52]they think you saw and what they
[3:53:54]heard you say
[3:53:55]and um and and i i'm not
[3:53:58]i said that mr marcus i'm not
[3:54:00]trying to create a
[3:54:02]um kind of a she said
[3:54:06]she said situation or he said she said
[3:54:08]situation
[3:54:09]but i do want to hear from you
[3:54:11]about your conduct because
[3:54:13]um it's important i think for when we
[3:54:16]evaluate
[3:54:17]what you say and how you say it and
[3:54:20]and um your recollection of things
[3:54:23]to also to talk about that so we're
[3:54:25]going to do that tomorrow
[3:54:27]i want to talk about you know the
[3:54:28]circumference leading up to your
[3:54:29]rest there's a lot of
[3:54:31]i think misinformation
[3:54:34]or there's a lot of information out
[3:54:36]there that i don't know what there's
[3:54:37]misinformation
[3:54:38]but about the time from
[3:54:41]um you know 2019 up until the time that
[3:54:44]that you were that you were arrested
[3:54:46]and then like i said that'll take us
[3:54:48]through lunch tomorrow and then and
[3:54:49]then we'll be done
[3:54:51]i'm not i don't have a plan i
[3:54:54]didn't know that
[3:54:54]i was coming here until this week okay
[3:54:57]so i'm not
[3:54:58]there isn't like a um we don't have
[3:55:01]like a schedule
[3:55:02]of what happens next or what happens
[3:55:04]um but the that's not a negative
[3:55:07]thing i'm just saying that that's
[3:55:08]so so you shouldn't take the lack of a
[3:55:11]a next step as anything other than we
[3:55:13]don't have a next step yet
[3:55:14]so um may i say something of course
[3:55:17]yes i just would like to put out
[3:55:18]there that i also focused on
[3:55:21]how i think the president got swept
[3:55:24]into some of this unnecessarily by
[3:55:27]the way
[3:55:28]and i'm not a conspiracy theorist
[3:55:31]and i certainly don't subscribe to
[3:55:33]all the
[3:55:36]all of everything that i see but i do
[3:55:38]believe that there is
[3:55:42]animus in some areas that may have
[3:55:45]contributed
[3:55:46]to how that the use of the president
[3:55:50]to harm him that i find
[3:55:53]deeply offensive and
[3:55:57]whilst i can't obviously say
[3:56:01]um definitively that that is what it
[3:56:04]is
[3:56:04]i would like to show you what i see
[3:56:07]so that you can evaluate it and do with
[3:56:09]that as you see fit
[3:56:11]if it needs to be addressed i've seen it
[3:56:14]it struck me and i would like to give
[3:56:16]it to you for what it's worth
[3:56:17]okay does that seem something that
[3:56:20]yeah that's fine
[3:56:20]yeah i don't like okay
[3:56:24]that's fine that's great um okay
[3:56:27]so why don't we stop for today i'll
[3:56:29]give you a little bit of time to chat
[3:56:31]and then um see you in the morning
[3:56:34]thanks
[3:56:36]this will conclude the recorded proffer
[3:56:39]interview for thursday july 24th
[3:56:42]we will continue tomorrow friday july
[3:56:44]25th the time is
[3:56:46]3 34 good morning today is friday july
[3:56:51]25th the time is
[3:56:53]9 24 a.m my name is spencer r horn on
[3:56:57]the assistant special agent in charge
[3:56:59]of fbi new york
[3:57:00]and we are here for a recorded proffer
[3:57:03]agreement with ms maxwell
[3:57:06]that's good morning good morning miss
[3:57:07]maxwell how are you
[3:57:08]good morning good so the proffer
[3:57:11]agreement we signed yesterday
[3:57:14]i um i just that there's there's a
[3:57:18]place on it for us to all kind of
[3:57:20]initial it's exactly the same
[3:57:22]document and you'll see your your
[3:57:24]signature
[3:57:25]if you can just initial right to the
[3:57:27]left of right here
[3:57:29]right there and then mr marcus will
[3:57:32]yes initial as well thank you
[3:57:35]and just to kind of um before we get
[3:57:38]going
[3:57:39]i'll just say that exactly the same
[3:57:44]folks that were here
[3:57:45]when we met yesterday are here today
[3:57:48]so there's no
[3:57:50]i'm not going to do formal
[3:57:52]introductions because it's exactly the
[3:57:54]same group of folks
[3:57:55]um so we're we're continuing miss
[3:57:59]maxwell our discussion of yesterday
[3:58:02]um and the same the same kind of
[3:58:06]rules apply if you will take breaks
[3:58:09]if you need to talk to mr marcus or
[3:58:11]your lawyers
[3:58:12]no absolutely no problem just let me
[3:58:14]know
[3:58:15]um i'll try to ask my questions
[3:58:18]in a coherent manner but if there's
[3:58:19]anything that i say that's confusing
[3:58:22]definitely um interrupt me
[3:58:26]thank you so i i think the easiest
[3:58:28]thing to um
[3:58:31]to start with is is there anything that
[3:58:34]we talked about yesterday that we're
[3:58:36]going to go through some more names
[3:58:38]i think that we we that's that's
[3:58:40]one of the places that we
[3:58:42]we interrupted just because there's a
[3:58:44]there's a lot of names but
[3:58:45]aside from additional names is there
[3:58:48]anything that
[3:58:49]you wanted to kind of follow up on
[3:58:51]that we talked about yesterday or
[3:58:53]anything that you thought maybe you
[3:58:54]remember more of or or not
[3:58:56]um some more names uh did come to me
[3:59:00]in the night and i did have uh some
[3:59:05]additional memories um just
[3:59:08]for clarity i believe i said that i
[3:59:11]couldn't
[3:59:11]think of anybody who i may have
[3:59:14]asked
[3:59:15]from um mara lago but then i
[3:59:19]realized that i was the allegation at
[3:59:22]least is that i
[3:59:23]met in mara lago so i felt that i
[3:59:27]needed to address that and i didn't
[3:59:28]want to leave that hanging because
[3:59:29]that seems weird
[3:59:30]i don't know circumstances and also
[3:59:32]but i couldn't remember anyone
[3:59:34]and maybe it was a long period of
[3:59:36]time
[3:59:37]so the issue is not that i'm trying
[3:59:39]to not say but i just don't
[3:59:42]i don't remember anybody that i would
[3:59:44]have but it's not
[3:59:44]impossible that i might have asked
[3:59:46]someone
[3:59:47]i don't i don't know exactly what you
[3:59:50]said yesterday
[3:59:51]but i don't think what you said
[3:59:53]yesterday is different than what you
[3:59:55]just said so yes
[3:59:56]okay okay i just wanted to be i
[3:59:58]just didn't want to feel that i had
[3:59:59]said no to something and that it
[4:00:00]didn't in
[4:00:02]definitely has said that she was
[4:00:05]working at mara lago and that you
[4:00:08]received a treatment of her from her
[4:00:10]at some point and that you
[4:00:12]recruited her to to to meet mr
[4:00:13]epstein do you know
[4:00:15]affirmatively whether that's true or
[4:00:16]false
[4:00:17]or do you just not have a memory either
[4:00:19]way
[4:00:20]i really don't believe it's true
[4:00:24]but i know that i did go to spas
[4:00:27]and if i met someone i did ask if
[4:00:28]they're home so i don't
[4:00:30]it in the realms of possibility it
[4:00:33]could have but i have no memory of
[4:00:34]it and i don't believe
[4:00:36]that it's how it went down but i
[4:00:37]don't want to
[4:00:39]okay so i want to talk about we
[4:00:41]talked a little bit yesterday about
[4:00:43]the financial part of your
[4:00:45]relationship with mr epstein
[4:00:47]kind of being on payroll for lack of a
[4:00:49]better word for many many years
[4:00:51]starting around 25 000
[4:00:53]and ending up at around 250 000
[4:00:57]per year
[4:00:59]there's as you know from your trial
[4:01:02]there's banking information that shows
[4:01:04]a ton of money being sent
[4:01:06]to you from mr epstein over the
[4:01:10]years
[4:01:11]in i think totaling something like
[4:01:14]30 million dollars something like this
[4:01:17]what's what's the um
[4:01:20]why was that money sent to you like
[4:01:22]what was that for
[4:01:23]well first of all i don't i dispute
[4:01:26]the characterization that the money
[4:01:28]was sent to me
[4:01:29]okay so tell me what i i i am
[4:01:32]i am stuck with the the witnesses at
[4:01:34]trial and then what was said at
[4:01:35]trial on that issue so
[4:01:37]what what what what is the um what
[4:01:40]do you dispute about that
[4:01:42]well i believe i i don't have full
[4:01:44]recollection i'm not even sure i ever
[4:01:46]saw what they accused me of but
[4:01:48]my uh belief is that that money also
[4:01:52]contained money that was for
[4:01:56]a helicopter for instance that
[4:01:59]i never owned and i was never mine
[4:02:03]and in other words money was sent to
[4:02:05]you that you then
[4:02:06]used to purchase things or well i'm
[4:02:08]not even sure that i
[4:02:10]purchased it so the accounts those
[4:02:12]accounts would be controlled by
[4:02:14]his accountants and even accounts in
[4:02:16]your name
[4:02:17]you're saying or one of your entities
[4:02:19]well i'm not even sure i knew
[4:02:22]of all the entities i'm not i don't
[4:02:24]it maybe i did contemporaneously but
[4:02:27]i simply wouldn't
[4:02:28]know today so if there was an entity
[4:02:30]let's say account x if i really set
[4:02:34]that up myself or whether they said
[4:02:36]we're doing this and the money's
[4:02:37]coming or whatever but
[4:02:39]in no um substantive way
[4:02:43]i can't think of the right word did
[4:02:45]you have control of i had no control
[4:02:47]is what i'm sure when when the
[4:02:48]government when there was testimony or
[4:02:51]the government admitted evidence that
[4:02:52]showed for example
[4:02:54]five million dollars in 2002
[4:02:58]coming from epstein in to you
[4:03:01]okay what you're saying is that that
[4:03:04]may or that happened
[4:03:05]but that the you there wasn't money
[4:03:08]that he wasn't giving you money
[4:03:10]i'm not going to say that for
[4:03:12]everything because maybe there were
[4:03:13]accounts that money was sent to me but
[4:03:16]i can say
[4:03:17]that i've no like the helicopter i
[4:03:20]can definitively say
[4:03:22]i'd have to look at all of them to
[4:03:23]be um
[4:03:25]accurate for you but um
[4:03:29]to explain how or why i could be
[4:03:31]receiving
[4:03:32]monies and i certainly did so i'm not
[4:03:34]disputing all of it
[4:03:35]when you said let's go back and look at
[4:03:36]why would why did money have to go
[4:03:39]into your
[4:03:40]accounts or account that was controlled
[4:03:42]by others but in your name
[4:03:44]to like purchase a helicopter oh
[4:03:46]that's a very good question
[4:03:48]i'm not sure i know the answer
[4:03:53]i don't so let me ask this
[4:03:56]maybe a different way that gets to
[4:03:59]the
[4:04:00]the issue right so the accusation by
[4:04:03]the government
[4:04:04]based upon the evidence they collected
[4:04:06]is that
[4:04:08]Epstein paid you millions and millions
[4:04:11]of dollars over the years and the
[4:04:12]reason why he paid you that is because
[4:04:14]you were performing
[4:04:15]an extraordinary service for him by
[4:04:17]recruiting
[4:04:18]young women um many of whom are
[4:04:21]underage to
[4:04:22]to um so that he could sexually
[4:04:25]abuse them okay that's their that's
[4:04:27]their allocation
[4:04:28]okay from what you said yesterday and
[4:04:34]from what i've
[4:04:35]reviewed about you and mr epstein
[4:04:39]he paid for a lot in your life
[4:04:42]your flights where you stayed with him
[4:04:45]i mean he didn't expect you to
[4:04:47]reimburse him along the way for
[4:04:48]food and you know you so he took
[4:04:50]care of you for many years
[4:04:51]that is true on top of that he
[4:04:54]actually paid you a salary
[4:04:55]we talked about 25 000 to 250 000
[4:04:58]what else did he give you or what
[4:05:01]what purchase like was there a time
[4:05:02]when he gave you a million dollars
[4:05:04]or five hundred thousand dollars as a
[4:05:05]bonus or
[4:05:06]what what financial benefit did you
[4:05:08]receive from him
[4:05:10]besides what we've already talked about
[4:05:11]we don't have to talk about what
[4:05:12]would you know
[4:05:13]yeah i got it i got it so
[4:05:17]my goal always uh was to
[4:05:20]become independent uh independently
[4:05:23]financially
[4:05:24]secure uh and work for myself i've
[4:05:28]never been the one to not work
[4:05:31]and in in that regard uh
[4:05:34]over the course of my friendship and
[4:05:37]my working relationship
[4:05:39]with epstein i expressed to him my
[4:05:43]desire to be
[4:05:44]independent of him just to be
[4:05:48]freestanding
[4:05:49]and that in with that in mind i
[4:05:52]wanted
[4:05:52]to have my own businesses or my own
[4:05:56]um my own money coming in
[4:06:00]independent and separate
[4:06:01]from any salary that i received from
[4:06:04]him
[4:06:05]and i needed that for my self-esteem
[4:06:08]i've never been
[4:06:09]uh i mean i obviously salary and it
[4:06:12]was a very generous one please
[4:06:13]i'm not belittling the sum of money
[4:06:15]because it's huge but
[4:06:17]um i i was brought up to work and i
[4:06:21]was
[4:06:21]brought up to be my own you know
[4:06:27]the first time so i would either
[4:06:29]propose businesses to him
[4:06:32]or he would actually suggest why didn't
[4:06:34]i do something the first
[4:06:36]deal that we did or the first
[4:06:40]uh business that we had or i had and
[4:06:42]that he
[4:06:44]financed for me so he gave he lent
[4:06:46]me all the money to enable me
[4:06:49]to do this and then i reap the
[4:06:51]profits which i
[4:06:52]i don't remember now because we
[4:06:54]varied over the deals that we did
[4:06:56]that i would give him 50 or 25
[4:06:58]it was sort of it was random so
[4:07:02]and i can tell you what it is so it was
[4:07:05]in
[4:07:05]palm beach actually and it was in real
[4:07:07]estate and they sold
[4:07:09]um what was the grounds
[4:07:11]originally of uh an estate called the
[4:07:14]phipps estate
[4:07:15]and then they they converted the land
[4:07:19]that came with that estate into
[4:07:22]uh houses and um
[4:07:26]i did i think two or maybe i can't
[4:07:29]remember now but certainly one
[4:07:30]and maybe two possibly three i don't
[4:07:33]think so i think two
[4:07:34]that then were flipped and there was a
[4:07:37]profit
[4:07:38]so that would be an example of that
[4:07:40]but i didn't have the money
[4:07:42]so he lent me the funds to do that
[4:07:44]business transaction
[4:07:46]and then i read the profits and so
[4:07:49]but when millions of dollars
[4:07:52]one of when a financial
[4:07:54]investigator like the fbi looks at
[4:07:57]accounts they don't know kind of the
[4:07:59]conversations you're having they just
[4:08:00]see the money
[4:08:01]so in those cases when that happened
[4:08:02]when he would fight when he financed
[4:08:04]that
[4:08:05]with you would he send money to you
[4:08:08]so does that explain
[4:08:10]some of the money like i guess i
[4:08:12]believe i think it does i think for
[4:08:13]instance there were two
[4:08:15]um gullwing mercedes that that they
[4:08:18]did with
[4:08:19]mercedes and astin martin you can
[4:08:21]look up i think if i'm right
[4:08:23]that had all the doors that would
[4:08:26]come up like this that were only
[4:08:27]very limited number that were made
[4:08:30]so i knew that we could get those and
[4:08:32]flip them right within 24 hours
[4:08:35]for example um also
[4:08:39]my uh here's another example something
[4:08:44]that you guys wouldn't have known
[4:08:45]about is i became a banker i got my
[4:08:47]series 63 series 67
[4:08:50]uh banking license and became a
[4:08:53]broker
[4:08:54]like a new binet and then because i
[4:08:57]was day trading everything i had i
[4:08:59]day traded
[4:09:00]was through an account and
[4:09:04]i think i was lucky more than smart but
[4:09:06]i made
[4:09:07]quite a lot of money doing that and so
[4:09:10]when was that like what
[4:09:11]that's again that's in the 90s again i
[4:09:13]don't
[4:09:14]all right i think but you can find
[4:09:17]it because it'll be my banking
[4:09:18]license right
[4:09:19]that'll be something that you can
[4:09:20]look up properly
[4:09:22]so whatever that is is is and i just
[4:09:25]don't remember when that is i'm
[4:09:26]sorry
[4:09:27]so okay so and so it's a
[4:09:30]for example i was i was doing really
[4:09:33]really really well
[4:09:34]and so he was like how do you do that
[4:09:36]why how are you what are you why are
[4:09:37]you investing in
[4:09:39]i don't know apple when nobody liked
[4:09:41]apple this is
[4:09:42]you know before apple or microsoft i
[4:09:45]didn't know bill gates so it's not
[4:09:46]related
[4:09:47]to him but um my family don't charge
[4:09:50]with inside a tree
[4:09:52]no i'm not trying to suggest that
[4:09:55]oh goodness please no i i had no
[4:09:58]okay
[4:10:00]yeah no way all right um
[4:10:04]but uh my my
[4:10:08]going back to my family i my dad had
[4:10:10]given me an account when i was 12
[4:10:12]and i had had always an interest in
[4:10:15]business
[4:10:15]and finance not not very
[4:10:18]sophisticated
[4:10:19]i'm not suggesting that um and so i
[4:10:22]like i like to trade and so
[4:10:24]i did and i did well and so then i would
[4:10:27]tell him what i was doing
[4:10:29]now whether he did or he didn't he told
[4:10:31]me he matched me
[4:10:32]in some other accounts that he had
[4:10:33]because he did a lot of
[4:10:35]he my observation to go back to what
[4:10:38]he did i observed him
[4:10:39]personally and have recollection
[4:10:41]personal recollection
[4:10:42]of him trading with money
[4:10:46]a lot tens of million hundreds of
[4:10:49]millions of dollars
[4:10:50]that was that he was trading for
[4:10:53]other people or that was the money
[4:10:55]i want also to um
[4:10:58]clarify something for you or clarify
[4:11:00]or underline
[4:11:02]wexner was in my opinion his closest
[4:11:05]friend
[4:11:05]in this time period from when i met
[4:11:08]him
[4:11:09]in uh 91 right all the way
[4:11:12]until till i don't know because i
[4:11:18]wasn't
[4:11:19]that um friendly with well i did
[4:11:21]travel with mr wexner but
[4:11:23]um epstein told me that uh wexner
[4:11:28]didn't want to be seen too much with
[4:11:30]me because
[4:11:31]of my family problems
[4:11:35]and you mean the problems that your
[4:11:38]father's company had yes
[4:11:40]embezzlement or yes yes that's what
[4:11:43]i'm talking about
[4:11:44]and now actually today not
[4:11:47]contemporaneously but today i don't
[4:11:49]believe that that's
[4:11:50]even true i think it was used as a
[4:11:53]means to not have me travel with him
[4:11:56]to ohio or whatever it was just a way
[4:11:59]to
[4:12:00]park me and i believe that now
[4:12:03]because
[4:12:03]within the discovery there was a lot
[4:12:05]of well not a lot but there was some
[4:12:07]indications
[4:12:08]that he would actively tell other
[4:12:10]people to lie to me
[4:12:12]or conceal things from me and that he
[4:12:15]never loved me and i wasn't his type
[4:12:18]that's in the discovery somewhere so
[4:12:21]okay so the government had evidence
[4:12:25]that even as late as 2007
[4:12:31]he paid you a lot of money um
[4:12:35]what was that what was the like
[4:12:37]several millions of millions of
[4:12:38]dollars in 2007
[4:12:40]um 7.4 million dollars what was that
[4:12:43]for was it was that the helicopter
[4:12:44]that was my question
[4:12:45]oh sorry i don't i don't know so
[4:12:47]so in 2007 i think that was probably
[4:12:50]the helicopter that could have been
[4:12:51]that could have been the helicopter the
[4:12:53]sikorsky those big chunks like that i
[4:12:55]don't
[4:12:56]i didn't i don't personally have any
[4:12:58]memory of receiving
[4:13:00]a check from him for seven million
[4:13:02]dollars
[4:13:04]i just i just don't but i i would
[4:13:06]have to
[4:13:07]i know i'm so the answer to your
[4:13:11]question to be precise i would
[4:13:13]remember
[4:13:14]he never paid me to for services
[4:13:17]that you just described
[4:13:19]seven million dollars to for any
[4:13:22]nefarious yeah i think i understand
[4:13:25]what you've said about
[4:13:27]being on the payroll and helping him
[4:13:29]helping you with businesses
[4:13:31]and giving you a lot of life
[4:13:35]things along the way you travel
[4:13:36]with him you eat with him is you
[4:13:38]know
[4:13:38]um but but there is the
[4:13:42]this these massive amounts of money
[4:13:44]one-time payments that i don't
[4:13:45]you'd have to trace that right so i
[4:13:47]i don't believe that came into my
[4:13:49]account or i had any control i have no
[4:13:50]memory of that
[4:13:51]i've no no well but if there's records
[4:13:54]that show up come into your account
[4:13:56]it sounds like what you're saying is
[4:13:57]that not putting aside your
[4:13:59]you have no memory of that money
[4:14:01]being yours like you didn't
[4:14:03]that money is not so no i wouldn't
[4:14:04]be like oh yippie let me go i got
[4:14:06]seven million dollars i'm going to go
[4:14:07]buy myself a yacht
[4:14:08]no or i don't know something else or
[4:14:11]move it to some other no i don't
[4:14:14]think i don't think if you look
[4:14:17]you'll have to check but obviously well
[4:14:21]i don't think you'll find that money
[4:14:23]moving in any
[4:14:24]to any account other mine or it
[4:14:26]shouldn't show
[4:14:27]i don't believe anyway as far as i
[4:14:29]regulate wouldn't show me spending it
[4:14:31]right does that make sense okay um
[4:14:33]yeah that makes sense i mean i think
[4:14:36]if i don't think there's any dispute
[4:14:38]by anybody even your your lawyers
[4:14:40]at trial that
[4:14:42]oh that that money went in seven
[4:14:43]million dollars in when what year
[4:14:45]well there's a several years in 2007
[4:14:48]and um it's the 2002 there was five
[4:14:51]million dollars that you that you were
[4:14:52]paid in 2002
[4:14:54]oh well i i'd have to i don't i don't
[4:14:57]remember
[4:14:58]but okay so there's there would be
[4:14:59]another large sum but it wouldn't have
[4:15:01]come from him later
[4:15:02]but nothing to do the biggest one
[4:15:03]was in 1999 there's over 18 million
[4:15:08]18.3 million i don't know what that
[4:15:13]is
[4:15:13]so what but you you but what you're
[4:15:16]saying it sounds like and then
[4:15:17]if you don't know we we're gonna we
[4:15:19]can move on but
[4:15:20]when we're talking about 18.3 million
[4:15:22]in 99
[4:15:23]five million and three years later in
[4:15:25]2002
[4:15:26]um 7.4 million in 2007
[4:15:30]that those that money adds up to
[4:15:33]around 30 million dollars
[4:15:35]you were not paid that by mr.
[4:15:37]epstein meaning that's not money
[4:15:38]you received
[4:15:39]for your benefit even if it was
[4:15:41]put into your accounts i don't believe
[4:15:43]any of that was my money
[4:15:44]now i do i just like i said we did
[4:15:46]do these things with the cars and we
[4:15:50]as as but but i don't i don't know if
[4:15:53]any of that money some of it if it
[4:15:55]moves
[4:15:55]some of that may have come from the
[4:15:56]car or a house that was sold that i
[4:15:58]had interested with him
[4:16:00]that's possible but but i don't think
[4:16:02]this money is mine but also
[4:16:03]the record should reflect too that
[4:16:05]there were times guillem's name was
[4:16:07]used for example
[4:16:08]er guillem her name was in the
[4:16:11]name of the entity it had nothing to
[4:16:13]do with her and
[4:16:14]if you pulled signatures yeah there's no
[4:16:18]no my what i'm trying to just make sure
[4:16:21]i that i understand is that
[4:16:25]the idea that you were paid 30 million
[4:16:27]dollars between 99 and 2007
[4:16:30]in order to um by mr. epstein to
[4:16:34]reward you for
[4:16:35]recruiting on women that is in your
[4:16:37]you're saying that is categorically
[4:16:39]completely false
[4:16:42]correct um so
[4:16:51]i want to um just we went through
[4:16:58]several individuals yesterday and and i
[4:17:01]want to
[4:17:03]go through just a couple of more names
[4:17:06]and ask if you if you know them and
[4:17:08]if you do know them
[4:17:09]how you know them
[4:17:13]do you know um elon musk i do
[4:17:16]and how did you meet mr. musk um i
[4:17:19]met him um in um i don't remember the
[4:17:25]year but it's going to be
[4:17:27]in 2010-11 something like that i
[4:17:33]think if my memory serves
[4:17:35]and um i was
[4:17:38]at an event for
[4:17:42]serguey brinn co-founder of google
[4:17:46]um and serguey had arranged for
[4:17:50]it was for his birthday and we were
[4:17:53]all a bunch of us i don't even remember
[4:17:56]how many we were but
[4:17:58]not many of us maybe if i say 40 i
[4:18:03]could be wrong
[4:18:05]if it was 30 or 50 i don't remember
[4:18:07]i'm sorry
[4:18:08]went to um another friend's island
[4:18:12]somebody called mr. bigotzi in
[4:18:16]in the caribbean and not with
[4:18:19]epstein he was not there
[4:18:21]to celebrate serguey's birthday and we
[4:18:23]were there together for
[4:18:27]i want to say three or four days
[4:18:28]something like that in my memory and
[4:18:31]mr musk was a present for that
[4:18:34]and that was the first time you met
[4:18:36]him as far as i remember yes
[4:18:39]did you meet did you know his
[4:18:41]brother mr musk brother
[4:18:43]um i don't i don't know if i've ever
[4:18:45]met him
[4:18:46]i know that he has a brother and um
[4:18:50]but i don't think i met him aside from
[4:18:53]that time in around 2010
[4:18:57]on the island of the caribbean for a
[4:18:58]couple days did you
[4:19:00]have you seen do you know mr musk
[4:19:02]beyond that time
[4:19:03]um we met at um i was at the oscars
[4:19:06]and we met at the oscars what year
[4:19:08]was that earlier or later
[4:19:11]it was post that event i believe
[4:19:15]and do you know whether mr fc knew
[4:19:16]mr musk
[4:19:18]i believe they did and the only reason i
[4:19:20]say that's not from my memory
[4:19:22]but because i saw i think i saw
[4:19:26]my memory is that in discovery they
[4:19:28]were communicating on email
[4:19:31]so you you have no personal knowledge
[4:19:33]of that it's just what you
[4:19:34]what you've seen from the press or
[4:19:36]from discovery and i believe his
[4:19:38]brother as well actually
[4:19:40]excuse me um mr musk's brother as
[4:19:43]well
[4:19:44]but i i don't like i said my
[4:19:47]memory is not
[4:19:48]isn't it's not as good as i would like
[4:19:51]it to be
[4:19:51]and i just want to say that do you
[4:19:55]you mentioned i think yesterday in
[4:19:57]passing um not in passing but as part
[4:19:59]of a another
[4:20:01]answer um andrew cuomo yes did you
[4:20:04]know mr cuomo
[4:20:05]um well only because he was married
[4:20:08]to cari
[4:20:09]yes okay and um i think uh i knew
[4:20:12]his brother as well
[4:20:13]what's it he has a brother right he's
[4:20:15]on tv
[4:20:16]what's his name
[4:20:17]um right yeah you mean the tv the
[4:20:23]former tv anchor or tv anchor
[4:20:25]yes okay so but um i would say just
[4:20:28]socially not i'm not close friends
[4:20:31]or anything but because we
[4:20:33]i was friends with cari and i met
[4:20:35]him a few times and i've certainly
[4:20:36]met his brother
[4:20:38]as well a few times and the same
[4:20:41]questions that i asked about mr musk
[4:20:43]do you know whether mr epstein
[4:20:45]knew andrew cuomo or chris cuomo
[4:20:49]or um miss kennedy your friend um
[4:20:53]i i didn't think so and so you never
[4:20:57]you don't recall any of those three
[4:20:59]individuals like flying on mr epstein's
[4:21:01]plane
[4:21:02]or visiting him in the beach or at
[4:21:04]the island
[4:21:05]no um i think you mentioned
[4:21:08]former secretary of state john cari
[4:21:10]yesterday but if
[4:21:11]if not do you know mr cari or not
[4:21:13]i have met him but i don't know if mr
[4:21:16]epstein know him i met him at only
[4:21:19]well really i can't even probably
[4:21:22]characterize that as a meeting but i
[4:21:24]was very very involved in the ocean
[4:21:27]uh at work through the you asked me
[4:21:30]yesterday about terramar
[4:21:31]and um if if i recall right i met
[4:21:35]mr
[4:21:36]the secretary that way through the
[4:21:37]ocean but he wouldn't know who i
[4:21:39]am i doubt
[4:21:40]i don't i don't think do you know
[4:21:43]whether
[4:21:44]well do you know um former senator
[4:21:46]ted kennedy
[4:21:48]yes um and does is that through your
[4:21:51]own
[4:21:52]life or through mr epstein my life
[4:21:55]do you know whether um mr epstein
[4:21:57]knew senator kennedy
[4:21:58]i don't believe so and so for the
[4:22:00]folks we just talked about so
[4:22:03]former secretary of state john cari
[4:22:05]ted kennedy um did you don't know
[4:22:09]whether mr epstein knew him so i take
[4:22:10]that to mean
[4:22:11]you have no recollection of them flying
[4:22:13]on his planes or visiting him
[4:22:15]oh um but um
[4:22:19]bobby kennedy knew him
[4:22:22]bobby the health sorry say that again
[4:22:26]about bobby kennedy
[4:22:27]bobby knew mr epstein how do you
[4:22:29]know that because we went on a trip
[4:22:31]together
[4:22:32]was we went to um
[4:22:37]dinosaur bone hunting in the dakotas
[4:22:42]when was that you know approximately
[4:22:44]i'm not looking for an exact date but
[4:22:45]when was that
[4:22:48]i was early that was in the early no
[4:22:51]well let me back up i knew um
[4:22:54]bobby's wife mary pretty well actually
[4:22:58]and before he met her and
[4:23:02]just to help us i know we're
[4:23:03]talking about a wide span of time but
[4:23:05]what do you when when are you
[4:23:07]talking about that you knew
[4:23:09]um mr kennedy's wife
[4:23:13]before they were married so when are
[4:23:14]we talking about the
[4:23:16]um i uh um in
[4:23:20]19 let's get my head straight
[4:23:24]in um well would this have been
[4:23:28]before you met mr epstein
[4:23:30]yes okay so i met him before i met
[4:23:32]so we're talking about
[4:23:33]in the 1980s oh yes yes thank you
[4:23:35]okay okay so we're talking about the
[4:23:37]1980s
[4:23:38]and then i was
[4:23:41]the the i had a very very long
[4:23:44]standing boyfriend
[4:23:46]and he had his brother
[4:23:49]was uh dating mary at the time and we
[4:23:52]were all
[4:23:53]good friends and then mr
[4:23:57]epstein did mr
[4:24:00]have seen meet bobby kennedy through
[4:24:02]you
[4:24:02]i don't i i don't think so
[4:24:06]because um mr epstein
[4:24:09]surprisingly everyone says everything
[4:24:11]happened through me that that's just
[4:24:13]not true i mean i think yesterday i
[4:24:16]explained that he had friends from
[4:24:17]london and those are very
[4:24:19]they were what the people would call
[4:24:22]fancy
[4:24:23]they were fancy people um and but he
[4:24:26]had the same
[4:24:28]types of relationships before i met
[4:24:30]him
[4:24:30]in um in america so when i met him
[4:24:34]he was uh already you know wexner and
[4:24:38]he had henry and he had he was
[4:24:40]i don't know if then he was at the
[4:24:42]in the council from relations but he
[4:24:45]was friends with
[4:24:46]ace and you know like he he was
[4:24:50]he was well established he didn't need
[4:24:53]me and he was
[4:24:54]you know his eva was um you know
[4:24:57]major model
[4:24:58]so he had all these modeling
[4:25:00]connections and friends in that
[4:25:02]business
[4:25:03]that long before i met him and so the
[4:25:09]trip that you
[4:25:10]went on with mr epstein and bobby
[4:25:13]kennedy
[4:25:13]was that in the 90s and 2000s i think
[4:25:16]it was in the it would have been in
[4:25:18]that um
[4:25:21]i want to say 93 94
[4:25:24]okay so a very long time ago very
[4:25:27]very long time ago
[4:25:28]it's a few years into the
[4:25:31]your relationship a few years into
[4:25:35]the time that you knew mr epstein
[4:25:36]yes i mean i i don't want to hold
[4:25:38]myself to the dates because i really
[4:25:40]no no i'm not holding you to dates i
[4:25:41]think i really i've said that a lot
[4:25:43]because i appreciate we're talking
[4:25:44]about the 80s and 90s and even
[4:25:46]even the 2000s i haven't had any i
[4:25:48]don't have anything to
[4:25:50]review so i haven't had any ability
[4:25:53]to
[4:25:54]the short of my legal material
[4:25:55]obviously which you can say you
[4:25:57]know i have
[4:25:58]so i came with a box work but short
[4:25:59]of that i have nothing with which to
[4:26:01]refresh or very limited stuff i
[4:26:04]should say i don't say nothing
[4:26:05]to refresh my mind understand that do
[4:26:07]you have any recollection
[4:26:09]of mr kennedy of there being anything
[4:26:11]inappropriate with mr kennedy and
[4:26:16]masseuses or young women on the trip
[4:26:19]you just talked about
[4:26:21]i never saw anything inappropriate with
[4:26:23]mr kennedy
[4:26:25]and do you know whether he ever got
[4:26:27]a massage from
[4:26:28]one of the masseuses do you know
[4:26:29]either way i do not
[4:26:32]but not something you remember i mean
[4:26:34]absolutely not i mean he well i mean
[4:26:37]yesterday if i didn't make it clear
[4:26:39]i will reiterate today i never ever
[4:26:42]saw
[4:26:43]any man doing something inappropriate
[4:26:47]with a woman of any age
[4:26:50]i never saw inappropriate but now i'm
[4:26:53]not
[4:26:55]i'm not going to say your hands or
[4:26:58]about
[4:26:59]that to me is not inappropriate now
[4:27:01]somebody's inappropriate and mine
[4:27:02]may be different but yep we're not
[4:27:05]talking about anything that's
[4:27:07]resembles the accusations that we're
[4:27:11]discussed here so that would be a flat
[4:27:13]note to any man
[4:27:17]did your or mr up change relationship
[4:27:19]with mr with bobby kennedy continue
[4:27:21]into the 2000s as far as you know
[4:27:23]i would say yes um well mine yes
[4:27:30]yours with you with me for sure and
[4:27:32]do you know whether
[4:27:33]mr upstein and mr kennedy bobby
[4:27:36]kennedy
[4:27:37]continue to have relationships into
[4:27:39]the 2000s i have no personal
[4:27:41]knowledge of that i mean i would i
[4:27:43]because here's another another thing is
[4:27:46]that everyone
[4:27:47]puts us together like a monolith he
[4:27:50]literally had a separate life for me i
[4:27:52]literally had a separate life from
[4:27:53]him now
[4:27:54]did they say well of course they did
[4:27:56]i'm not that's i'm not crazy but
[4:27:59]he kept a lot to himself and he
[4:28:00]didn't like to share he was not a
[4:28:02]share or at least not mr upstein
[4:28:04]didn't share your thing not with me no
[4:28:06]did you um do you know somebody named
[4:28:10]sheryl mills
[4:28:12]used to work in the white house as a
[4:28:13]lawyer yes how do you know miss mills
[4:28:15]i met miss mills through uh president
[4:28:17]clinton
[4:28:18]and do you remember a generally the
[4:28:22]time frame that you that you met
[4:28:23]her
[4:28:24]i do actually um i'm sorry i'm just
[4:28:37]trying to
[4:28:38]remember i'm gonna get my dates
[4:28:40]right
[4:28:41]approximately well okay i i can't get my
[4:28:44]dates right
[4:28:45]but it's something you've probably made
[4:28:47]it's going to be in the early 2000s
[4:28:49]okay so i don't recall so i wanted
[4:28:54]to say 2002
[4:28:55]she was after president clinton left
[4:28:59]office
[4:28:59]oh yes and so it was in the 2000s
[4:29:02]um definitely and how what how did
[4:29:04]you meet her what were the
[4:29:05]circumstances in which you met miss
[4:29:06]mills
[4:29:08]i went on a trip with the president
[4:29:11]to south america with which president
[4:29:13]oh sorry uh
[4:29:15]president clinton yeah okay just you
[4:29:16]know sorry it was i just wanted to
[4:29:18]make sure it was clear
[4:29:19]okay so you went on a trip to to
[4:29:22]where
[4:29:23]latin america um and who said so miss
[4:29:26]mills was on that trip she was
[4:29:28]um and president clinton was on that
[4:29:29]trip he was who else was on that
[4:29:31]trip
[4:29:32]duck band um who worked with
[4:29:36]president clinton yes and um was
[4:29:40]mr apstein
[4:29:41]no um and what was the purpose of that
[4:29:44]trip
[4:29:45]um well uh the president had been
[4:29:51]i don't know i mean i the president
[4:29:55]met with
[4:29:57]i can't even remember every little
[4:29:59]i don't know presidents and
[4:30:01]was this part of president clinton's
[4:30:03]work after he left office with the
[4:30:05]with his foundation or was it
[4:30:07]meaning
[4:30:08]something for him i don't remember when
[4:30:12]um the clinton globe initiative started
[4:30:14]so if you
[4:30:15]date me if you give me that date i can
[4:30:17]tell you if it was pre or post
[4:30:18]because without that i can't pin the
[4:30:21]the reason do you remember what it
[4:30:23]was for or not no i don't recall i
[4:30:25]mean that's that's don't don't
[4:30:26]overthink or underthink the reason
[4:30:28]for my questions i i i don't i don't
[4:30:31]have any idea why you went on that
[4:30:32]trip so i don't i don't know an
[4:30:33]answer that i'm keeping no i'm just
[4:30:34]trying to be as accurate as
[4:30:36]possible and give you
[4:30:37]why would you do you remember why you
[4:30:40]were invited to go like were you were
[4:30:42]you friends with somebody what was
[4:30:43]your role
[4:30:45]going on that trip i didn't have a
[4:30:46]role so
[4:30:49]do you remember why do you remember
[4:30:53]who invited you to go
[4:30:56]if probably doug band
[4:31:02]and how did you know um doug
[4:31:06]um because doug and again back with
[4:31:08]philip levine
[4:31:12]and do you know whether he had a
[4:31:14]relationship with mr epstein who
[4:31:16]doug i i don't know
[4:31:20]i mean nothing i don't believe there
[4:31:22]was any relationship other than
[4:31:24]i helped well without me i don't think
[4:31:27]there would have been those flights
[4:31:29]because i was the one who asked
[4:31:32]epstein to provide the plane for
[4:31:35]well certainly i remember the one to
[4:31:37]um to africa of course that big trip
[4:31:42]and i thought it was an honor
[4:31:46]and a privilege to be part of something
[4:31:48]so amazing and to have an opportunity
[4:31:51]to
[4:31:53]spend time with a man that i found
[4:31:55]truly extraordinary
[4:31:58]and i please i don't mean it in any
[4:32:00]other way other than there's a form of
[4:32:02]fantastic president
[4:32:04]so i was asking around the question
[4:32:06]but i was asking like
[4:32:08]were you basically asked to go because
[4:32:10]you were kind of responsible for the
[4:32:13]plane
[4:32:13]not responsible is the wrong word they
[4:32:15]use you they were able to use you to
[4:32:17]make sure that they could
[4:32:18]you you helped them get mr epstein's
[4:32:20]plane for the trip
[4:32:21]no i don't even know if when i was
[4:32:23]on that fact
[4:32:25]i think i think that trip i'm not
[4:32:28]even sure that epstein had
[4:32:29]met the president okay i think this
[4:32:31]is i'm right and i think i am
[4:32:34]i think that trip happened when
[4:32:36]epstein and clinton had never even
[4:32:38]not that they'd never met because
[4:32:39]epstein had gone to the white house but
[4:32:41]they had not met
[4:32:43]i'd never asked epstein for the plane
[4:32:44]then because they'd never met and it
[4:32:45]would be weird
[4:32:46]but they met because of me and the
[4:32:49]plane was because of me
[4:32:50]but that trip was the first
[4:32:54]i think the first trip i took with the
[4:32:56]ex-president
[4:32:57]um and i don't believe epstein and
[4:33:00]he had met
[4:33:01]and we're talking a time period
[4:33:04]when i was trying to leave
[4:33:08]not very successfully obviously but i
[4:33:10]was branching out on my own and being
[4:33:13]more independent of mr epstein
[4:33:17]and trying to
[4:33:21]all kinds of businesses that i was
[4:33:23]into i was
[4:33:24]trying to start the first telehealth
[4:33:26]medicine with the cleveland clinic i
[4:33:28]mean i'm not going to bore you
[4:33:29]because i don't think that's what you
[4:33:30]guys are
[4:33:31]interested in but um those were the
[4:33:34]sorts of things that i was looking
[4:33:35]for him to finance so that i could
[4:33:37]stop being you know general manager of
[4:33:39]a hotel
[4:33:41]did you so did you take other trips
[4:33:46]with
[4:33:47]some or all of those individuals kind
[4:33:50]of
[4:33:51]without mr epstein in later years
[4:33:53]like you said that was the first
[4:33:54]time that
[4:33:55]you you you had kind of been on
[4:33:57]something like that and it was an
[4:33:58]honor and you were spending time with
[4:34:00]with former president clinton and
[4:34:02]others were there other
[4:34:04]over the years did you do that more
[4:34:05]than once
[4:34:06]yes um we'll talk about those
[4:34:11]like multiple times like too many to
[4:34:12]count or they're three or four times
[4:34:14]like how many times
[4:34:15]a lot a lot okay i went on a lot of
[4:34:18]trips
[4:34:19]now i don't recall all of them not
[4:34:22]because
[4:34:23]i'm trying to be evasive or anything
[4:34:25]but i just
[4:34:26]don't remember them all and after
[4:34:28]a while you know in the incredible
[4:34:31]job that you have
[4:34:32]all of you that when you're so high
[4:34:34]pressured and you're
[4:34:35]spending so much time with
[4:34:36]extraordinary people like you do with
[4:34:39]um president trump it it can blur
[4:34:43]it just does and there's few things
[4:34:46]that stand out because
[4:34:48]at the end it's all just extraordinary
[4:34:49]years and
[4:34:51]cars and sirens and president it's
[4:34:55]like well okay
[4:34:58]so i understand
[4:35:01]but talk so so don't give me
[4:35:03]understanding you can't give specific
[4:35:05]numbers what describe more about kind of
[4:35:07]your that part of your life and your
[4:35:09]relationship
[4:35:10]i'm using relationship you don't like
[4:35:12]relationship and you are sorry and
[4:35:14]your
[4:35:15]my employer yes all right so just
[4:35:18]describe your what you were doing
[4:35:21]with those individuals so when i say
[4:35:25]those individuals i'm talking about
[4:35:26]former president clinton
[4:35:28]doug um other folks that work with
[4:35:31]him
[4:35:31]yes there were loads of them and just
[4:35:33]through all of them you know the team
[4:35:34]i don't need to give you all the names
[4:35:36]you have them at your fingertips and i
[4:35:39]can
[4:35:39]confirm if you give me names i'll say
[4:35:41]yes because they're not all going to
[4:35:42]pop into my head
[4:35:44]right okay so i started um spending a
[4:35:47]lot of time
[4:35:49]i don't want to characterize that i
[4:35:50]started to spend time with
[4:35:52]the former president and with doug and
[4:35:55]his team
[4:35:56]and the um it
[4:36:00]i had no purpose really other than
[4:36:04]i had i obviously offered something
[4:36:09]i don't know ideas of i don't
[4:36:14]anyway and um he started to
[4:36:19]uh travel uh i don't remember if the
[4:36:22]first trip was africa
[4:36:23]or how it went but at some point i
[4:36:25]think there was actually two trips
[4:36:27]but i'm not sure so there was two
[4:36:29]europe and then to africa i think
[4:36:35]maybe it was all one trip
[4:36:36]and at some point um mr epstein said
[4:36:41]he didn't
[4:36:41]want to go on the trip and he was
[4:36:46]going somewhere else and he just left
[4:36:49]and i was like well okay and so i
[4:36:51]ended up doing the whole trip
[4:36:53]without mr epstein or his plane
[4:36:57]and when you were traveling with them
[4:37:02]what were the purposes of the trips
[4:37:04]like is this one
[4:37:06]i think these were all i think
[4:37:08]actually was the aids
[4:37:09]was one of the primary ones for his
[4:37:12]aids
[4:37:13]foundation when he was working to do
[4:37:16]that
[4:37:17]and um they were always a
[4:37:19]humanitarian side
[4:37:20]to the trips and we went to egypt
[4:37:25]and uh there was oh yeah
[4:37:29]so there so it sounds like you're
[4:37:31]describing one
[4:37:33]right now one trip or with lots of
[4:37:36]it could be but i have a feeling that
[4:37:38]i went on other trips
[4:37:39]but i can't remember when you when
[4:37:42]you went on this went to london
[4:37:44]to london okay i don't know if
[4:37:46]that's the same trip
[4:37:47]when you went on these trips that
[4:37:51]were you always on mr epstein's
[4:37:53]plane or did you sometimes accompany
[4:37:55]them on a different plane correct yes
[4:37:58]how many were on mr epstein's plane
[4:38:01]again i'm not holding to exact but
[4:38:02]that was a full that was packed
[4:38:04]because there was a lot of secret
[4:38:06]service it took all the secret
[4:38:07]service as well
[4:38:08]so it was whatever the detail is
[4:38:10]for secret service
[4:38:11]it's a lot um and
[4:38:14]on how many occasions besides the
[4:38:17]trip you just described
[4:38:18]were there other times when they used
[4:38:21]pro the when president clinton
[4:38:22]and the folks he was with
[4:38:24]used mr epstein's plane i i think it
[4:38:27]was there was twice maybe there was that
[4:38:30]but it will reflect on the logs there
[4:38:32]won't be anything that's not on the
[4:38:33]logs that you have already so were
[4:38:35]you by the way responsible for the
[4:38:36]logs in any way like you've seen the
[4:38:38]logs and they're public and you had
[4:38:39]them in discovery but over the years
[4:38:41]when you were
[4:38:42]working with or for mr epstein did
[4:38:44]you have access to the logs
[4:38:47]no never the pilots that the log book
[4:38:51]was their personal log book
[4:38:53]i never even saw them have it i never
[4:38:55]saw them fill it in
[4:38:56]and then there was a second uh set of
[4:38:58]logs the um
[4:39:01]the flight flight manifests and i
[4:39:04]never saw those either
[4:39:06]i was never i was never allowed i
[4:39:08]suppose because
[4:39:09]what we've seen do you know
[4:39:16]so do you know whether um mr epstein
[4:39:20]had a separate relationship with
[4:39:21]with president clinton different from
[4:39:25]what you just described so different
[4:39:26]than than
[4:39:27]being with him with respect to his
[4:39:29]foundation or something like this
[4:39:31]i would say no um
[4:39:34]when's the last time that you
[4:39:38]went on a trip or saw president
[4:39:39]clinton i was in uh
[4:39:43]was late 2000 and
[4:39:51]um i don't know 16 17
[4:39:58]eight something in it was in los
[4:40:00]angeles and what was the purpose of
[4:40:02]that meeting
[4:40:03]i didn't uh he was hosting something
[4:40:05]or he was at an event and i was in
[4:40:07]may and
[4:40:08]i had to know them um
[4:40:18]did you ever meet um sector clinton
[4:40:20]hillary clinton
[4:40:21]yes when did you meet her
[4:40:25]um i want to say
[4:40:34]again please don't hold me to it but
[4:40:35]i want to say
[4:40:37]uh it was on a flight
[4:40:41]that came from the island from
[4:40:45]not from the island from the nantucket
[4:40:48]or martha's vineyard back to new york
[4:40:50]is what i think
[4:40:52]i might be wrong okay so some an
[4:40:55]an east coast island like nantucket
[4:40:57]or something like this
[4:40:58]i the clint the ex-president never
[4:41:01]came to the island
[4:41:02]and did you is that the only time
[4:41:04]that you met
[4:41:05]hillary clinton no um i went to the
[4:41:08]house in chapitra
[4:41:10]a few times and why did you go to the
[4:41:12]house i was invited
[4:41:14]um just to see president clinton or
[4:41:17]hillary clinton or both or
[4:41:20]yeah i mean as a as a friend not for
[4:41:24]there was no i don't remember any
[4:41:26]reason either was somehow i
[4:41:29]communicated that was
[4:41:30]in coming driving back past
[4:41:32]chapitra if they were home and
[4:41:33]stopping it's
[4:41:35]i know it sounds a little flippant but
[4:41:36]it could it could have been even
[4:41:38]something is
[4:41:39]and do you know whether mr epstein
[4:41:42]had new or had a real any sort of
[4:41:44]business dealings or
[4:41:45]or associated with hillary clinton i
[4:41:48]would say no
[4:41:50]did you ever see them together no
[4:41:53]did do you know whether mr epstein
[4:41:57]ever did any
[4:41:58]business transactions with the
[4:42:00]clinton's
[4:42:01]i would well i'm not sure i i'm not
[4:42:05]sure how to
[4:42:06]quite i don't know the answer that
[4:42:08]strictly um because
[4:42:10]uh i was uh i was part of the
[4:42:14]beginning process of
[4:42:16]the clinton global initiative and
[4:42:19]that was something that i helped
[4:42:23]with and that was
[4:42:25]me and epstein may have helped me
[4:42:28]help them and in that context he
[4:42:31]may well have
[4:42:32]involved himself but only in the
[4:42:35]context of
[4:42:36]something that i was trying to do so
[4:42:40]when you say involved himself
[4:42:43]meaning like give money to the
[4:42:45]clinton global initiative or something
[4:42:46]like this
[4:42:47]well so there's that i think he did
[4:42:50]do that
[4:42:51]and that i believe the money that
[4:42:52]he may have given could have been
[4:42:53]independent of me
[4:42:55]but um i think it's just easier if i
[4:42:58]just tell you how it happened
[4:42:59]rather than
[4:43:00]it's otherwise it sounds sounds all
[4:43:02]odd and funky
[4:43:04]um i went to um davos with
[4:43:07]former president and um i
[4:43:11]uh have you been to davos
[4:43:16]in what have you been to davos i
[4:43:18]have not okay well you know it's a
[4:43:20]you know what it is right okay so
[4:43:23]and i was i thought that
[4:43:27]the former president should have his
[4:43:30]own dabos because it would be
[4:43:33]and they had it turned out that they
[4:43:36]had been thinking about it
[4:43:37]anyway and so we were talking about
[4:43:39]it and
[4:43:40]you know it's a very heavy lift to
[4:43:43]get something like that to go
[4:43:45]and i was friendly with um
[4:43:48]one of the people who had um i
[4:43:50]don't know if he was at the
[4:43:52]beginning of dabos or
[4:43:54]but he was running dabos so just i
[4:43:56]don't know how to describe
[4:43:57]his actual role at dabos and had
[4:44:00]conversations with him about what did
[4:44:01]he think
[4:44:02]you know just because i was having
[4:44:05]dinner with him
[4:44:06]about if clinton could get something
[4:44:08]like that together what was his
[4:44:09]thoughts
[4:44:10]and he was very very enthusiastic i
[4:44:12]mean he was like that's just an
[4:44:13]incredible idea
[4:44:14]so i put them together who's what's
[4:44:17]that person's name
[4:44:18]i knew you were gonna ask me um i can i
[4:44:21]can
[4:44:22]i just you said i didn't know if you
[4:44:25]knew his if you were i do know i
[4:44:26]do but i just can't remember his name
[4:44:28]it will come to me it may come to me
[4:44:30]tomorrow but eventually these things
[4:44:32]like surface like in the middle of the
[4:44:34]night i was scribbling names
[4:44:35]that i couldn't remember from yesterday
[4:44:38]okay but his name will come to me
[4:44:40]and if not we can find it
[4:44:41]so so you when the just still stay
[4:44:45]staying on or your relationship with
[4:44:48]sorry the your association with the
[4:44:51]the clintons
[4:44:52]um you were part of the ramp up or
[4:44:55]the startup of the clinton global
[4:44:57]initiative and helping them and
[4:44:58]supporting
[4:45:00]that effort i would i would say
[4:45:03]very important very central to that
[4:45:04]yes and
[4:45:07]mr epstein was he part of the
[4:45:12]work around that or just in support
[4:45:15]of you
[4:45:18]he supported me to help them but then
[4:45:21]i think he may
[4:45:21]have tried to use that to insert
[4:45:24]himself in some way
[4:45:25]that would not have surprised me at
[4:45:27]all and i know that he
[4:45:28]i was annoying and sometimes i could
[4:45:32]catch him on the phone and he wouldn't
[4:45:33]always agree with what i wanted to do
[4:45:35]and i was like it's not your idea i
[4:45:37]don't really care what you think
[4:45:38]but i didn't go over so well
[4:45:41]um and i just want to say it wasn't
[4:45:45]my idea for his cga
[4:45:47]i didn't it was not your city it's
[4:45:48]not my idea they had had that idea
[4:45:51]before
[4:45:51]i just helped bring key personnel
[4:45:53]you're saying the idea of president
[4:45:55]clinton kind of having his own
[4:45:57]i'm not i'm not owning i didn't that's
[4:45:59]not understood
[4:45:59]i don't want to try to elevate myself
[4:46:02]in any form of importance
[4:46:03]no understand okay um did you go to
[4:46:07]davos with president clinton more
[4:46:08]than once or just once
[4:46:11]i can't remember once for sure and i
[4:46:14]think maybe twice but i don't remember
[4:46:17]um did and you're not
[4:46:21]i think you said you don't you
[4:46:24]you're not aware of
[4:46:25]president clinton ever going to the
[4:46:27]island he never
[4:46:28]absolutely never went and i can be sure
[4:46:30]of that because there's no way he would
[4:46:31]have gone
[4:46:33]i don't believe there's any way that
[4:46:34]he would have gone to the island had
[4:46:35]i not been there
[4:46:37]because i don't believe he had an
[4:46:38]independent friendship if you will
[4:46:41]with epstein
[4:46:41]did they speak did he go yes but
[4:46:44]that's very different
[4:46:45]from going to spend time on night
[4:46:47]and plus the story as told
[4:46:50]is so patently absurd that i flew
[4:46:53]him in the helicopter
[4:46:55]i am a helicopter pilot that is true
[4:46:56]but it's a notion of me flying an ex
[4:46:59]president
[4:46:59]and a machine that terrify me i would
[4:47:02]never even take that responsibility
[4:47:04]can you imagine
[4:47:05]yeah no i'm not um no
[4:47:08]did did you ever go with president
[4:47:11]clinton to
[4:47:12]any of epstein mr epstein's um
[4:47:15]properties
[4:47:16]so like new mexico palm beach or in
[4:47:19]new york
[4:47:20]i don't i don't have no memory of
[4:47:24]him in any of those places
[4:47:26]when you were in london with president
[4:47:27]clinton
[4:47:29]did you did you ever go to your
[4:47:32]to your flat with him i don't think
[4:47:35]he did
[4:47:36]and i don't think so because it's like
[4:47:39]you wouldn't even be able to carry
[4:47:42]all his secret service with him
[4:47:44]i don't think so no um
[4:47:50]do you know um we talked a little
[4:47:52]about the dutch of york about
[4:47:54]sarah focusing yesterday
[4:47:56]did um when's the
[4:48:01]when's the last time you like when's
[4:48:04]the last time you you saw her
[4:48:06]like were you were you give a were
[4:48:09]you with her hang out with her
[4:48:11]socializing with her in the 90s 2000s
[4:48:14]both
[4:48:15]she's well um i don't
[4:48:27]i don't know if she liked me very
[4:48:29]much
[4:48:30]i think my friendship with her
[4:48:34]ex-husband um well sometimes
[4:48:40]she really did like me and sometimes
[4:48:42]she didn't so maybe a friend of me
[4:48:45]i don't know i it was always friendly
[4:48:47]when we were together
[4:48:48]but i think that there was some latent
[4:48:50]hostility
[4:48:52]and is that something you've heard
[4:48:54]since everything came out or along
[4:48:55]the way you felt that way
[4:48:57]no that's how i felt that's that is
[4:48:58]a characterization of myself
[4:49:00]that's how i felt about her um i
[4:49:02]would never
[4:49:03]i i was always friendly with her i
[4:49:05]mean she's
[4:49:06]i mean i've seen her many many times
[4:49:10]and she's also super super close with
[4:49:13]other people
[4:49:14]we were very good friends with in
[4:49:15]england
[4:49:16]i think that um i think that she
[4:49:21]liked mr epstein
[4:49:24]what do you think that my female
[4:49:27]intuition
[4:49:34]no i don't remember it oh well
[4:49:37]okay i don't it's possible that
[4:49:39]there's things well i know
[4:49:41]that's not possible i know that
[4:49:42]there is discovery
[4:49:44]but i don't recall but i think she had
[4:49:46]a thing
[4:49:49]did um there's some
[4:49:53]actors or some folks from hollywood
[4:49:55]that
[4:49:56]i want to ask you about just to
[4:49:58]understand whether
[4:49:59]you knew them or mr epstein knew them
[4:50:01]chris tucker
[4:50:02]yes how did you know mr tucker i
[4:50:04]think only from that flight
[4:50:06]to africa but i do think that they
[4:50:09]say that flight to africa the one
[4:50:10]we were just talking about
[4:50:11]president clinton so
[4:50:12]okay sorry sorry go ahead yep but i
[4:50:15]also think that
[4:50:17]they kept a little bit in touch and i
[4:50:20]think
[4:50:21]they met or i have a memory of him
[4:50:24]maybe in la i don't know i think
[4:50:26]they sort of loosely stayed in touch
[4:50:27]i wouldn't
[4:50:28]i don't think it i don't know i don't
[4:50:30]know how to say that do you know
[4:50:31]mr tucker
[4:50:33]besides that flight no and do you
[4:50:36]know whether
[4:50:38]um when you say you think that they
[4:50:40]kept in touch you mean you think that
[4:50:42]mr epstein and mr tucker they may have i
[4:50:45]didn't
[4:50:46]but he might have i don't i'm sure
[4:50:49]um kevin spacey i i know him also
[4:50:52]from
[4:50:53]that same flight aside from that
[4:50:56]flight do you know
[4:50:57]from any other than no naomi cambell
[4:51:01]yes i do know naomi and i knew her
[4:51:03]before i met
[4:51:05]uh mr epstein and uh mr
[4:51:09]the former president clinton do you
[4:51:12]know whether mr epstein
[4:51:14]separately knew miss campbell
[4:51:17]i think he probably met her through
[4:51:19]me that
[4:51:21]i imagine and so um
[4:51:25]for those three mr tucker mr spacey
[4:51:28]and miss campbell did they ever
[4:51:31]travel to um any of mr epstein's
[4:51:33]properties the island or new mexico
[4:51:36]not mr tucker well not to my knowledge
[4:51:39]mr tucker or mr spacey
[4:51:43]and naomi campbell may have to where
[4:51:47]she may have gone was she certainly
[4:51:49]well i believe she visited
[4:51:52]him in palm beach and i believe she
[4:51:55]may have gone to the island
[4:51:56]and she may have gone to see his
[4:51:58]house in new york whether she went to
[4:52:00]new mexico or paris as well maybe
[4:52:03]they were friends or friendly
[4:52:06]were you the what you just said she
[4:52:09]may have were you on those trips
[4:52:12]um i don't have any independent memory
[4:52:13]of that so
[4:52:14]i'm not sure i don't think so
[4:52:18]do you know her relationship her
[4:52:21]friendship her
[4:52:22]making me use your word
[4:52:26]her um friendship with mr epstein
[4:52:30]was independent of me
[4:52:32]okay but you also had a separate
[4:52:34]friendship with her before you met mr
[4:52:36]epstein i did okay um
[4:52:39]larry summers the former secretary of
[4:52:41]the treasury do you know that person
[4:52:43]i did yes how uh i met mr summers
[4:52:46]through mr epstein um and the same
[4:52:50]question
[4:52:51]just generally time period are you
[4:52:52]talking about early 2000s 90s
[4:52:55]after that i honestly
[4:52:58]really don't know i did want to say
[4:53:01]something i forgot
[4:53:02]that there was yesterday um you asked
[4:53:05]me about mr epstein's properties
[4:53:06]he had a rental in boston as well but
[4:53:09]not for very long
[4:53:11]but it was another place that i had to
[4:53:12]put together and um
[4:53:14]i only went with him once and he
[4:53:16]would go there independently of me
[4:53:18]i would not go with him was that in
[4:53:20]the 90s
[4:53:22]i think it was yes mr summers
[4:53:26]do you know what you know what his
[4:53:30]relationship was with mr epstein
[4:53:32]business personal both or don't you
[4:53:34]know
[4:53:35]i think he spoke to mr epstein about
[4:53:37]business i know
[4:53:38]but i think they were friends and
[4:53:40]friendly um
[4:53:42]did you know whether mr summers
[4:53:43]ever traveled on mr epstein's planes
[4:53:45]to
[4:53:46]any of the properties that mr epstein
[4:53:48]owned he may have but i don't think
[4:53:50]if he did i was on any of the
[4:53:51]flights
[4:53:52]i mean there's another issue is i
[4:53:54]mean i went i traveled so so much
[4:53:56]that i really the flights just blur
[4:54:00]understand um george soros
[4:54:04]i don't think he knew him i did but i
[4:54:06]don't think he did i don't think how
[4:54:07]did you know mr soros i was friends
[4:54:09]with his kids
[4:54:12]what which kids john
[4:54:15]and um i can't think of his
[4:54:22]other child i can't think i mean i've
[4:54:25]lost his name
[4:54:26]i would say who i would say i met
[4:54:31]him
[4:54:32]but just socially and he may not
[4:54:35]remember even having my i was excited
[4:54:37]to meet him
[4:54:38]when are you thinking when would you
[4:54:39]have met him
[4:54:40]if i met him it i think it was either
[4:54:42]at an event or at his
[4:54:43]kids it would have been at his house
[4:54:46]an event i think or
[4:54:47]i think actually no in the hamptons
[4:54:48]i met him he was staying at
[4:54:50]somebody's house
[4:54:51]if if my memory serves what was
[4:54:54]your relationship
[4:54:56]how did you know his kids i was
[4:55:00]out and about in new york a lot
[4:55:04]so just socially just yes and um
[4:55:08]yeah just socially i think you know
[4:55:11]do you know whether mr soros or his
[4:55:13]kids ever traveled on mr epstein's
[4:55:14]planes
[4:55:15]i don't think so and never visit
[4:55:18]either the island or new mexico or
[4:55:20]no i don't think paris no so
[4:55:27]we tried to to identify
[4:55:31]names that have come up either
[4:55:33]publicly or in in in other lawsuits
[4:55:37]are there any names that you
[4:55:40]that come to mind that we haven't
[4:55:41]we've talked about a lot of names
[4:55:43]a lot of others there's some folks
[4:55:44]that that you think we've
[4:55:46]forgotten to ask you about well you
[4:55:48]asked me about names
[4:55:50]and i have some names and i just
[4:55:52]want to give you some context for
[4:55:53]the names as well
[4:55:54]so we talked about elizabeth johnson
[4:55:57]yesterday
[4:55:58]and she had a boyfriend and he was
[4:56:00]frederick for kai the hairdresser and
[4:56:04]he and epstein were friendly very
[4:56:05]friendly
[4:56:08]um and then what time pair are you
[4:56:09]talking about
[4:56:11]um like 90s or 2000s or
[4:56:20]both i think the 2000s actually for
[4:56:22]that um you can date that because
[4:56:25]they're from when he
[4:56:26]i think he probably knew frederick
[4:56:27]before he dated elizabeth
[4:56:30]but um and when you said they were
[4:56:33]very friendly
[4:56:35]did they go do they travel together i
[4:56:37]don't know if they travel together but
[4:56:39]i mean epstein didn't go out very
[4:56:41]much well i mean he did go out but
[4:56:43]not
[4:56:44]and sometimes if he did he did i
[4:56:45]think he would go out
[4:56:47]maybe see fred frederick and then
[4:56:49]there was um
[4:56:51]i mean he had a bunch of guys
[4:56:54]that he would i would know that he
[4:56:57]would see or
[4:56:58]meet but he really i guess now i'm
[4:57:02]so he had different i don't know but
[4:57:05]okay what other names okay so um
[4:57:09]henry cherecky who had an island near
[4:57:12]his
[4:57:13]henry was a financier he was the guy
[4:57:15]who cornered the silver market back in
[4:57:17]the day
[4:57:18]he had an island in the in the
[4:57:20]caribbean near the britches virgin
[4:57:22]islands
[4:57:22]okay and there was branson's island
[4:57:24]there now i know that there's an
[4:57:26]allegation that they met
[4:57:27]i i think i think i remember that i
[4:57:32]went to
[4:57:32]richard branson's island with mr epstein
[4:57:36]and maybe he went another time but i
[4:57:39]don't i wouldn't characterize richard
[4:57:41]branson and him as friends but
[4:57:42]he did go and i think i went with him
[4:57:46]do you know whether mr branson ever
[4:57:47]came to mr epstein's island if he
[4:57:50]did i was not there
[4:57:51]okay okay sorry but it's possible
[4:57:54]i wanted to who else um marvin minsky
[4:58:01]he had a group of scientists that he
[4:58:03]was very very friendly with
[4:58:05]all centered around harvard so
[4:58:09]i remember him martin novak who's a
[4:58:11]mathematician
[4:58:12]um steven j gould i don't know steven
[4:58:17]j gould was came through the harvard
[4:58:19]angle but i know that
[4:58:22]there was a he would epstein would
[4:58:26]have dinners
[4:58:27]at the house that i was tasked to
[4:58:30]organize
[4:58:31]and the scientists were a very major
[4:58:34]component of that
[4:58:35]they weren't social dinners as much as
[4:58:39]they were
[4:58:39]scientific he would discuss he would
[4:58:42]discuss but
[4:58:43]if you were in the area of
[4:58:46]brain uh cognition
[4:58:49]or um he would invite them to the
[4:58:53]house and they would come
[4:58:54]all of them all any name you can name
[4:58:56]me they would be there
[4:58:58]so let's talk about that talk that
[4:59:02]relation
[4:59:02]those those associations or
[4:59:05]relationships yeah with the
[4:59:06]mathematicians or and with harvard and
[4:59:08]i think with
[4:59:09]mit to some extent as well what
[4:59:13]what from what you observed what's the
[4:59:16]reason behind him having um
[4:59:21]the developing those ties with with
[4:59:24]harvard with mit and with
[4:59:25]certain professors and and others
[4:59:27]associated with those institutions
[4:59:29]he really was profoundly interested
[4:59:33]in that area of science and in the
[4:59:35]brain
[4:59:36]and in i mean if you were in
[4:59:40]steven j gould or um the
[4:59:43]major scientist on happiness i mean it
[4:59:45]it came
[4:59:47]i believe from a genuine area of
[4:59:49]interest not from anything
[4:59:51]um and how did he
[4:59:56]um how did he become friends with
[4:59:58]them how was he able to spend time
[5:00:00]with them
[5:00:00]meaning um did he
[5:00:03]donate to the university and then they
[5:00:05]were kind of it was mandatory fun for
[5:00:07]them or did he have
[5:00:08]relations with them or he would you
[5:00:10]know i don't know host them i don't
[5:00:12]know if the chicken or the egg came
[5:00:13]first
[5:00:14]okay but um when i met him first
[5:00:18]and he was already
[5:00:19]doing a lot of this stuff this is
[5:00:21]not i i've i've read
[5:00:23]so this is why i'm saying this i was
[5:00:24]not responsible for these
[5:00:26]for this area of interest i mean i
[5:00:28]certainly sorry just
[5:00:30]to balance a second before it slips
[5:00:32]my mind and i leave something out um
[5:00:35]there was an institute in new mexico
[5:00:38]called um anyone uh the institute of
[5:00:46]it's very famous we're not talking
[5:00:48]about alamos
[5:00:50]anyway all right there's a very
[5:00:51]famous institute in new mexico you
[5:00:52]can look it up
[5:00:53]it'll come to you the minute you
[5:00:54]put it in your computer
[5:00:56]and there had some of the biggest
[5:00:58]brains ever
[5:00:59]those that relationships came through
[5:01:02]me
[5:01:02]so i that's me and that is because my
[5:01:06]father
[5:01:07]was um one of the major scientific
[5:01:12]hit up my family fortune when i had
[5:01:15]one
[5:01:16]came from scientific publishing and
[5:01:19]when uh it started from
[5:01:22]the thing that you were asking me
[5:01:23]yesterday my father was in
[5:01:26]the second world war i told you and
[5:01:28]he won the military cross and then
[5:01:29]he actually did become part of
[5:01:31]intelligence
[5:01:32]back in the war and his job was to
[5:01:36]interrogate german scientists and
[5:01:39]prisoners of war
[5:01:41]and then he parted into a business
[5:01:43]with spring of erlag and then
[5:01:45]into pugman press which was the
[5:01:47]scientific journals business
[5:01:50]and he had an interest he he
[5:01:53]believed that
[5:01:54]um it's knowledge is what would
[5:01:57]prevent war
[5:01:57]and the biggest scientific
[5:01:59]discoveries well not all of them
[5:02:01]but many of them are coming
[5:02:02]from the eastern block and that's
[5:02:06]how we have the relationship with
[5:02:08]santa fe institute
[5:02:09]and marie gellman specifically and i
[5:02:12]introduced that scene to marie
[5:02:13]gellman
[5:02:14]sorry this is a sound fancy too yes
[5:02:16]thank you
[5:02:17]and um marie gellman was there and
[5:02:20]marie gellman
[5:02:21]and everything got along very very
[5:02:23]well and he was the man of the
[5:02:24]clock
[5:02:25]so so do you know whether
[5:02:28]um so while you
[5:02:32]when you meet mr obscene in the early
[5:02:34]90s continuing on so not what he had
[5:02:36]done before
[5:02:37]um did he why do you think from what
[5:02:43]you saw or what you heard
[5:02:45]he had the relationship or wanted to
[5:02:47]have the relationships that he had
[5:02:48]with harvard and with
[5:02:49]and with mit so i think that that
[5:02:53]may have come with wexner
[5:02:54]i'm not sure but that's something
[5:02:57]that i think that wexner maybe had a
[5:02:59]relationship with harvard
[5:03:00]and that he used that relationship
[5:03:03]to uh i believe he funded a lot
[5:03:06]and if he didn't that his clients
[5:03:09]of which wexner obviously was one
[5:03:10]would fund and he would he would
[5:03:13]then make
[5:03:14]he would arrange the fund or
[5:03:19]organize the fund or we're going to
[5:03:21]take we'll take a break in a
[5:03:22]minute but just to kind of set us
[5:03:25]up for we're going to talk about
[5:03:27]next um mr we talked the yesterday
[5:03:30]morning about
[5:03:32]mr obscene's kind of business and how
[5:03:34]he
[5:03:35]had money um did he seem to live
[5:03:40]beyond his means as far as what he
[5:03:42]was making so
[5:03:44]did you ever get the sense while you
[5:03:46]were with him
[5:03:47]that it was um suspicious
[5:03:51]or curious how he was able to have
[5:03:55]the funds to you know by you know
[5:03:57]two planes you know an island
[5:03:59]new mexico you know the ranch
[5:04:01]almost almost unlimited funds uh he
[5:04:04]said it perfectly
[5:04:05]that was astonishing but i didn't
[5:04:08]have any
[5:04:09]reason to believe that it came from
[5:04:12]anything
[5:04:13]nefarious i saw him work
[5:04:16]i never saw him really do anything
[5:04:19]other than be on the phone
[5:04:20]there's that and he had a lot of
[5:04:22]meetings but he had
[5:04:23]a lot of accounts and he dealt with
[5:04:26]pretty much every financier that you
[5:04:29]could
[5:04:30]care to mention and if i could have
[5:04:33]access to the names i'd be able to
[5:04:34]tell you which ones you i just
[5:04:37]don't remember them all but in every
[5:04:38]bank goldman
[5:04:40]limon um all of them
[5:04:45]but to my mind anyway and
[5:04:49]most of the major businessmen at
[5:04:50]that time he was in the council of
[5:04:52]foreign relations
[5:04:53]so you had access that's an
[5:04:55]extraordinary list
[5:04:57]of people it just is and then he
[5:05:00]you asked me about his back so i
[5:05:02]thought about it last night
[5:05:04]how to try and explain what it was
[5:05:06]and i think the best thing is to
[5:05:07]focus only on wexner's business
[5:05:09]so i was present for some of their
[5:05:11]meetings
[5:05:12]in some of their business um and i
[5:05:16]listened
[5:05:17]and um so things that i personally
[5:05:20]recollect and i know i heard was
[5:05:23]that he
[5:05:24]would when i i told you yesterday i
[5:05:26]think that
[5:05:27]he would no detail was too small so he
[5:05:29]would do the
[5:05:30]contracts with the staff i think and i
[5:05:33]saw that myself
[5:05:35]and he also organized all the trusts
[5:05:38]for all the children
[5:05:39]so if wexner had kids and he did he
[5:05:43]did have children so every time
[5:05:44]there was a child he would create a
[5:05:45]trust for that child
[5:05:47]and i don't and these were complex
[5:05:49]financial structures
[5:05:52]that would contain stocks of the
[5:05:55]various businesses he restructured
[5:05:57]when i was there wexner's business in
[5:06:00]its entirety
[5:06:01]as i recollect and then not only that
[5:06:04]but there were business interests so
[5:06:05]wexner owned or built or designed or i
[5:06:08]don't quite know how to characterize
[5:06:10]it but new albany which is a center
[5:06:12]outside of
[5:06:14]ohio columbus ohio specifically
[5:06:18]and he built i remember this
[5:06:20]conversation
[5:06:21]he he built himself a very large
[5:06:23]house
[5:06:24]but like truly enormous i was one of
[5:06:26]the biggest private homes i've ever
[5:06:27]been to
[5:06:28]and he built all the houses around
[5:06:30]him and i'm like
[5:06:32]this is so random why would you do
[5:06:33]that and he said well because i want
[5:06:34]to make sure
[5:06:35]that the people around me are my
[5:06:37]friends i want my friends around me
[5:06:38]and my neighbors and
[5:06:39]and i was like well whatever okay you
[5:06:42]know
[5:06:42]i i i've been around the enormous
[5:06:45]wealth my whole life
[5:06:47]and i've like at some point i just
[5:06:49]say okay whatever i get it
[5:06:51]and i don't and so that's what he
[5:06:52]did but
[5:06:53]epstein ran new albany which included a
[5:06:56]country club and a golf club and uh
[5:06:59]i mean gosh your boss is one of the
[5:07:00]all-time great you know
[5:07:02]businessmen in this area you know
[5:07:04]what that is and
[5:07:05]and he certainly does so there'd be
[5:07:07]that and there was a business
[5:07:08]business that epstein
[5:07:10]well he told me he owned it of
[5:07:11]course i can't say that for sure
[5:07:13]because i don't know but
[5:07:16]it's a sports thing redel set of
[5:07:18]business redels
[5:07:19]i thought about it last night it's
[5:07:21]red
[5:07:22]and it had hats helmets
[5:07:26]redels right down right down
[5:07:29]yeah right else okay now how we own
[5:07:32]that
[5:07:32]well he told me he owned it but how he
[5:07:34]owned that i
[5:07:35]but that was before i i think i came
[5:07:37]in and he had it
[5:07:39]or he said he did and he had other
[5:07:42]businesses he had
[5:07:43]i know this notion that he did
[5:07:45]nothing and he just was a grifter and
[5:07:46]whatnot
[5:07:47]okay i'm not going to say that's not
[5:07:50]true but it's not what i saw and
[5:07:51]it's not what i
[5:07:52]believe is true not because
[5:07:56]it couldn't have been that he didn't
[5:07:58]grift or whatever the word itself of
[5:08:00]people but
[5:08:01]i saw what i saw looked like real
[5:08:04]work
[5:08:06]well why don't we take a take a
[5:08:07]break okay
[5:08:09]yeah thank you all right the time is
[5:08:11]now 10 35
[5:08:12]and we'll take a break we are
[5:08:17]resuming from break
[5:08:19]and the time is 10 49 on friday july
[5:08:22]25th all right so
[5:08:35]we've talked around this issue but
[5:08:38]but talked about it a little bit i
[5:08:39]want to spend the next
[5:08:41]hour or so or however long it takes
[5:08:46]when when you would we
[5:08:49]i want to talk focus kind of
[5:08:51]exclusively on
[5:08:53]Epstein and like his criminal conduct
[5:08:56]with respect to
[5:08:57]to women
[5:09:03]do you you said yesterday a couple
[5:09:07]times that like you now kind of
[5:09:09]recognize or or think that there were
[5:09:11]things that he did that you didn't
[5:09:12]know about and that that he
[5:09:16]kept from you or that you didn't see
[5:09:19]what did you see so you said
[5:09:22]yesterday
[5:09:23]and i'm not i'm not trying to put
[5:09:25]words in your mouth that at some
[5:09:26]point he was getting massages
[5:09:28]seven days a week sometimes multiple
[5:09:29]massages a day
[5:09:33]women have said that that were there
[5:09:36]that they say they were there
[5:09:37]giving him massages said that that
[5:09:40]those included some sort of sexual
[5:09:44]conduct
[5:09:45]however you define that in the
[5:09:46]broadest sense not just a
[5:09:48]traditional massage regularly so
[5:09:53]what are you what did you see and
[5:09:58]hear at the time
[5:09:59]and then i think aside from what you
[5:10:03]saw and heard at the time
[5:10:05]now that you've been through what you've
[5:10:07]been through and heard people say what
[5:10:08]they've said and read what they read
[5:10:10]what do you where does that leave you
[5:10:12]in your mind with what happened
[5:10:14]okay so i saw Epstein
[5:10:20]with women and what i mean by that
[5:10:25]is he would have women around him
[5:10:30]or women on the plane or women in
[5:10:33]his house
[5:10:34]that's how i'm explaining that
[5:10:38]those women were very interested
[5:10:45]what my my characterization of the
[5:10:48]inter the relationships between all
[5:10:51]women that i saw with him
[5:10:53]and him was characterized by
[5:11:00]their interest in him as i as i would
[5:11:02]see it
[5:11:03]and by that i mean i never saw
[5:11:07]anybody who didn't want to be with him
[5:11:12]and be with him maybe socially or
[5:11:14]whatever i never saw anybody
[5:11:16]not under any form of duress
[5:11:19]in any type of situation where they
[5:11:22]were
[5:11:23]as as as i would characterize it
[5:11:25]looking uncomfortable
[5:11:26]or in any way distressed in the
[5:11:30]entire time i was with him
[5:11:33]traveled with him i never saw that so
[5:11:36]anytime i saw anybody with him they were
[5:11:39]happy to be with him he would ask
[5:11:42]people
[5:11:43]all the time whoever you were to
[5:11:45]massage his feet
[5:11:47]just was he'd be sitting there and he'd
[5:11:50]have somebody massage his feet or
[5:11:52]squeeze his shoulders or i saw that
[5:11:55]a lot it it was an ubiquitous
[5:11:59]interaction if you will so i did see
[5:12:02]that
[5:12:03]um i saw physicality
[5:12:08]but not anything that was uh
[5:12:15]i don't have a character right anything
[5:12:17]that looked
[5:12:18]aggressive i suppose to define that so
[5:12:21]i never saw an aggressive move i never
[5:12:23]saw anything that was
[5:12:25]non-consensual yeah well thank you
[5:12:27]okay i never saw anything that was
[5:12:29]non-consensual so if he
[5:12:33]well maybe they didn't i never saw
[5:12:35]anything that looked like they
[5:12:36]didn't like the hug
[5:12:37]or uh i never saw what i would
[5:12:41]characterize as anything that was
[5:12:42]consensual did you see um
[5:12:47]did you see him
[5:12:51]either get receiving or participating in
[5:12:54]sexual conduct during massages
[5:12:56]understanding you never saw something
[5:12:58]non-consensual did you see him
[5:13:00]engaged in sexual conduct during
[5:13:02]massages well you could define sexual
[5:13:04]conduct as in
[5:13:06]i did see women who could have been
[5:13:09]you know less than normally clad for
[5:13:11]massage but especially on the island
[5:13:13]where they would be in a bikini or
[5:13:15]possibly even topless yeah i did see
[5:13:17]that so you would
[5:13:20]but what about in so yes i agree
[5:13:24]that's one
[5:13:25]area like so women who were either
[5:13:27]not clothed or
[5:13:30]topless with just a bottom on
[5:13:34]but beyond that did you see as part of
[5:13:36]that him touching them and again i'm not
[5:13:39]talking about consent or not consent
[5:13:40]or age or you know i'm saying like
[5:13:43]there's multiple multiple you know
[5:13:46]dozens and dozens of women
[5:13:48]who have said that they were that
[5:13:51]they engaged in
[5:13:53]sexual contact and i agree there's a
[5:13:55]broad range of what that can
[5:13:57]how that can be defined but defining
[5:13:59]it in the broadest
[5:14:00]of terms i saw him being physical i
[5:14:04]did see that but nothing that was not
[5:14:05]consensual and in to address the issue
[5:14:08]of the large number of women who today
[5:14:11]say that he was not consensual
[5:14:14]coercive with them i'm not
[5:14:23]sure in my mind i sort of have to
[5:14:27]characterize the
[5:14:28]two distinct areas there's one where
[5:14:30]is the women who are not
[5:14:32]of age therefore anything with them is
[5:14:35]immediately unconsensual correct
[5:14:36]so let's start yeah and i want to define
[5:14:39]anyone who's under age versus anybody
[5:14:41]who's over age because i do think that
[5:14:43]there's a very
[5:14:44]significant differential between the
[5:14:46]two so does the law
[5:14:47]yes okay i don't mean that i don't
[5:14:50]i i agree with you yes i agree with
[5:14:53]you yeah yeah okay so i want to deal
[5:14:55]with the thing which is really why
[5:14:56]we're here i mean not that i'm not
[5:14:58]going to deal with other but i just
[5:14:59]want to make a distinction with
[5:15:01]underage situation because there's
[5:15:02]nothing about that that's right
[5:15:06]i never saw anything with anybody
[5:15:10]who was certainly to be
[5:15:14]categorical in my from my trial
[5:15:17]let's deal with that because that's
[5:15:18]something that i can
[5:15:20]say in i never saw that with them
[5:15:23]at all and i would say that
[5:15:27]as as described anyway in my trial
[5:15:30]did not happen as described
[5:15:33]i'm not saying that mr etstein did
[5:15:35]not do those things i'm not casting
[5:15:38]those i'm not going to i don't feel
[5:15:40]comfortable saying that today given
[5:15:41]what i now know to be true so i'm not
[5:15:43]here to defend him
[5:15:45]but what i can say is that i did not
[5:15:47]participate in that activity and
[5:15:50]so let's divide this into two areas
[5:15:54]maybe there's more but we'll start
[5:15:55]with two areas
[5:15:56]one is there was testimony and
[5:15:58]there's certainly been
[5:15:59]depositions and public statements
[5:16:02]that some of these young women
[5:16:06]had conversations with you about their
[5:16:08]age
[5:16:09]so for example conversations about the
[5:16:12]fact that they were
[5:16:13]in high school or conversations about
[5:16:15]the fact that they wanted to go to
[5:16:16]college one day which would
[5:16:17]necessarily mean
[5:16:20]well not necessarily but would
[5:16:22]be more likely to mean that they
[5:16:23]were in high school they talk to you
[5:16:24]about that
[5:16:25]and so were there were there women
[5:16:29]that you knew
[5:16:31]were underage and i say that because
[5:16:34]that's different than whether
[5:16:37]they were sexually abused in any way
[5:16:40]by mr etstein
[5:16:41]just merely their age and going to
[5:16:44]give him a massage
[5:16:46]no i never knew that and i
[5:16:49]can categorically state that had
[5:16:52]any child said to me that they were
[5:16:56]14 15 16 maybe not 17 because 17 in
[5:17:00]england i mean if someone had said
[5:17:02]there was 17 i don't
[5:17:03]i've read so much that that did
[5:17:05]happen i mean i'm just but i had no
[5:17:07]i would never have committed such a
[5:17:09]thing i would never even know what i
[5:17:10]would have done
[5:17:12]what so some of the i think even
[5:17:15]someone who testified at trial but
[5:17:16]certainly
[5:17:17]publicly talked about was as young as
[5:17:20]14
[5:17:21]when when she was introduced to mr
[5:17:24]epstein
[5:17:25]um in in your mind today
[5:17:32]you you don't you you kind of reject
[5:17:36]that that happened that you saw that
[5:17:37]meaning
[5:17:38]you don't recall any obviously under
[5:17:41]18 woman
[5:17:42]coming to give him a massage well i
[5:17:44]believe you're talking about jane
[5:17:45]and i'm very happy to address that i
[5:17:47]actually don't think
[5:17:49]that the testimony is correct i don't
[5:17:52]believe
[5:17:53]look i don't know no i'm not i just
[5:17:55]wanted to yeah yeah i don't want to get
[5:17:56]into no no no i'm not i'm not no no
[5:17:58]absolutely not i don't want to go
[5:17:59]there i'm not i'm not going to do
[5:18:00]that
[5:18:01]but i believe that what took place
[5:18:03]with a lot of these people is that
[5:18:05]there was a slide
[5:18:06]right so there was a a zone
[5:18:10]and i mean he did meet her and i
[5:18:12]did meet her and i knew
[5:18:14]that she was a young child i knew
[5:18:15]that she was
[5:18:17]not an adult because but i don't
[5:18:20]believe he met her till she was
[5:18:21]16 so i'm not i'm not
[5:18:24]doing a he said she said i'm not doing
[5:18:26]that because nobody
[5:18:27]that's not what we're here for but he
[5:18:30]didn't meet her till she was 16
[5:18:33]and the entire testimony
[5:18:36]of the 14 15 and 16 year old is
[5:18:39]therefore not accurate did i meet
[5:18:42]her
[5:18:43]when she was 16 with her mother i
[5:18:45]absolutely did and did i know that
[5:18:46]she was young i absolutely did
[5:18:48]but everything that took place that
[5:18:51]was alleged at trial at the 14 and 15
[5:18:55]and 16
[5:18:56]is is not accurate and
[5:19:01]there's there's testimony or there's
[5:19:03]and again i'm using testimony
[5:19:05]in the broadest sense some of this
[5:19:06]is just public statements or
[5:19:08]something that's come out in civil
[5:19:10]lawsuits
[5:19:11]about you and mr epstein giving
[5:19:15]like an 18 year turning 18 birthday
[5:19:18]card to somebody which again
[5:19:20]if true would by definition mean you
[5:19:22]knew that she was under 18
[5:19:25]do you recall doing that i do not i
[5:19:27]mean
[5:19:29]no memory of that at all
[5:19:34]and i believe that would be the
[5:19:37]person that called herself kate has
[5:19:39]now announced herself
[5:19:40]in her own podcast who she really is
[5:19:42]her name is so i did not meet until
[5:19:46]actually she was either 20 or 21
[5:19:49]so it would be very hard for me to
[5:19:51]have given her an 18
[5:19:52]birthday card and the testimony that
[5:19:55]you look so that slid back
[5:19:58]do you accept that at some point and
[5:20:01]we talked with us yesterday about how
[5:20:03]mr epstein changed but at some point
[5:20:06]mr epstein definitely preferred
[5:20:10]younger women i accept and i think
[5:20:13]you said yesterday but say it again
[5:20:14]since we're talking about it
[5:20:15]is that something that you in your
[5:20:17]mind one of the areas where he
[5:20:19]changed from when you first met him
[5:20:21]until later so i i just also want to be
[5:20:25]clear
[5:20:25]i never understood that change to
[5:20:28]encompass
[5:20:29]children i did see from when i met
[5:20:33]him
[5:20:33]he was uh involved or friends with
[5:20:37]whatever however you want to
[5:20:38]characterize it with women
[5:20:39]who are in their 20s and then the
[5:20:42]slide
[5:20:45]to you know 18 younger looking women
[5:20:50]but i never considered that
[5:20:53]this would encompass criminal behavior
[5:20:56]it never
[5:20:59]and so when you read
[5:21:04]i guess two different times right one
[5:21:06]was during the florida investigation
[5:21:08]when there were
[5:21:10]eventually public statements from some
[5:21:13]of these
[5:21:15]these now women who testified about
[5:21:17]what they did with mr epstein when
[5:21:19]they were
[5:21:19]under 18 at that point did you realize
[5:21:25]or did you think to yourself
[5:21:28]this happened or this could have
[5:21:29]happened i missed it or
[5:21:31]um or were you at that point still
[5:21:34]in the mindset that they were either
[5:21:37]not telling the truth or
[5:21:38]were not remembering what happened
[5:21:41]the way that accurately that's a
[5:21:44]very fair question
[5:21:45]so i think that um my
[5:21:49]view of this at that time
[5:21:53]call it as contemporaneously as it did
[5:21:55]because i don't think that stuff
[5:21:56]came out
[5:21:57]in public i i mean i may have read
[5:22:00]things but i don't
[5:22:01]my first real memory of that is at
[5:22:03]the trial but
[5:22:04]um my viewpoint if you will
[5:22:08]was set from the minute that
[5:22:13]lied in her civil deposition
[5:22:16]and i could never recover from that
[5:22:18]because what do you which liar what
[5:22:20]are you referring to
[5:22:24]her entire characterization
[5:22:26]characterization
[5:22:27]okay now i i i don't remember
[5:22:30]how she came whether i did but i'm
[5:22:33]talking about the first time she came
[5:22:34]to epstein's house which i knew to
[5:22:36]be
[5:22:37]false so from that first lie
[5:22:40]of that description i could never
[5:22:42]recover
[5:22:42]i understand okay so and that tainted
[5:22:48]sorry just so that we clearly tainted
[5:22:50]then the the testimony
[5:22:52]of everybody else that i saw that came
[5:22:55]post that
[5:22:56]because i had my own personal
[5:22:57]experience which i knew to be false
[5:23:00]yeah and the reason why i think and i
[5:23:03]i said to
[5:23:04]mr marcus that this morning
[5:23:09]that we were going to talk about this
[5:23:10]because when i think about
[5:23:12]you and the public's perception of
[5:23:15]mr epstein
[5:23:17]um the public is left with the view
[5:23:22]that nobody in the world knows what
[5:23:23]really happened except for you
[5:23:25]okay now you've explained the last day
[5:23:27]and a half how some of that's just a
[5:23:29]misperception
[5:23:29]because you weren't you didn't have a
[5:23:31]key to his house
[5:23:33]you weren't around as much as as
[5:23:35]maybe everybody claims you were
[5:23:37]okay but there still is this
[5:23:39]perception out there that oh my gosh
[5:23:42]if we could talk to miss maxwell we
[5:23:44]would know
[5:23:45]um how horrible mr epstein was or
[5:23:49]how misperceived he was whatever the
[5:23:52]truth is
[5:23:53]about mr epstein and the challenge in
[5:23:55]my mind just
[5:23:56]to be i told you i would tell you
[5:23:58]when i had issues
[5:24:00]and the challenge in my mind is
[5:24:01]that so many women
[5:24:05]have have said that mr epstein
[5:24:09]sexually assaulted them whether
[5:24:12]juveniles or
[5:24:13]or women or adults that um
[5:24:16]i don't find it you know at some
[5:24:19]that's persuasive right that that
[5:24:21]happened
[5:24:22]okay so and so if if that's
[5:24:24]persuasive then
[5:24:25]and i think it's without beyond
[5:24:28]contestation that
[5:24:30]he preferred younger women and and
[5:24:33]and it's also beyond i think at this
[5:24:35]point
[5:24:36]there were certainly circumstances of
[5:24:37]underage women
[5:24:41]well i don't want to say that you agree
[5:24:42]with me on that
[5:24:43]i certainly believe that there were
[5:24:45]younger age women that were abused by
[5:24:47]him
[5:24:47]okay um
[5:24:51]and so then so the layer that i want
[5:24:54]you to that i really want to have a
[5:24:56]frank discussion about is
[5:24:58]some of these women have said oh yes
[5:25:00]you know miss maxwell was there you
[5:25:02]know
[5:25:03]to varying degrees she saw me there
[5:25:05]she
[5:25:06]the door was open when i was there and
[5:25:08]then and then much more egregious right
[5:25:09]that you participated and that you
[5:25:11]were part of it
[5:25:12]and so what i what i really want you
[5:25:15]to have an opportunity to
[5:25:16]to say to us is where on the
[5:25:20]spectrum
[5:25:21]the truth is whether it's somewhere
[5:25:23]in the middle whether it's
[5:25:24]one extreme or another extreme
[5:25:27]understanding in my mind i'm talking
[5:25:28]about
[5:25:29]1994 or five to whenever late 90s
[5:25:33]early 2000s
[5:25:35]and let me just interrupt and all i
[5:25:37]would say is
[5:25:40]we're not here to say anything one
[5:25:43]way or the other about epstein i
[5:25:44]agree with you that
[5:25:45]that the evidence is overwhelming
[5:25:46]against him and and he
[5:25:49]he's his own person and has to deal
[5:25:51]with that but
[5:25:52]galen can speak about what she knows
[5:25:54]yes and from her point of view and
[5:25:56]what she did
[5:25:57]and and that's what you can talk
[5:25:59]about galen okay
[5:26:01]so i think it it's helpful to
[5:26:04]put this on the the time on the
[5:26:07]calendar
[5:26:07]because i think without that we we
[5:26:09]lost
[5:26:11]so i would say we'll go from the
[5:26:13]beginning 91
[5:26:14]no two no three no four no
[5:26:17]five no six now in that time frame
[5:26:21]you have the allegations of jane who
[5:26:24]i dispute i don't think you met her
[5:26:26]till she was
[5:26:27]let's not talk about individuals no
[5:26:28]no i'm just saying yeah but there's
[5:26:30]but there's only so in that time
[5:26:32]period i only aware of her
[5:26:34]i'm aware of a girl who said but
[5:26:40]and and those i don't know of any
[5:26:44]others and if there are other people
[5:26:46]who are making allegations about i
[5:26:47]don't i'm not even i'm not actually
[5:26:48]aware of that
[5:26:49]i may have read them in the but i
[5:26:52]don't i don't know so
[5:26:53]i think in the early 90s period i
[5:26:56]think i'm fairly confident and i can
[5:26:58]say
[5:26:59]that at least as characterized it's
[5:27:00]it's just false it's just it didn't
[5:27:03]happen as said now didn't
[5:27:05]did it happen did he did he
[5:27:09]involve himself i knew about jane
[5:27:11]because i saw her come to the house
[5:27:12]but i saw her with her mother
[5:27:14]i know that her allegations are that
[5:27:16]there were
[5:27:19]orgies for instance but the people
[5:27:24]that she
[5:27:25]suggests were in her which he
[5:27:26]didn't even work for epstein until
[5:27:28]98 or 99
[5:27:31]did he do orgies with those people and
[5:27:35]i don't know anybody who was there who
[5:27:36]said that they did
[5:27:37]i certainly didn't see it i can't say
[5:27:40]that that happened
[5:27:41]um did she do it with someone else i
[5:27:43]don't know the stories really start
[5:27:46]the the the allegations really begin
[5:27:48]with and i think that you have to
[5:27:51]shift
[5:27:52]his behavior such as it was
[5:27:54]bar there was one in california who
[5:27:56]made an allegation there was a
[5:27:58]woman who said that she
[5:28:00]and she's i didn't know about so i
[5:28:02]think i would call her the first person
[5:28:04]i'd be aware of him using his position
[5:28:06]to start to interrupt you but i just
[5:28:09]want to
[5:28:11]i don't want i don't want to have you
[5:28:16]i don't think it's helpful for us to
[5:28:18]have you kind of
[5:28:19]address each allegation i want you to
[5:28:21]clear your mind and just tell the
[5:28:23]truth about it so i'm not saying
[5:28:24]you're not telling the truth i'm saying
[5:28:25]just putting aside what other people
[5:28:27]have said or what their lawyers
[5:28:28]have said or what they testified to
[5:28:30]or you know the rumors in the press
[5:28:34]push those aside you you were there and
[5:28:37]um and so when when you go back to
[5:28:40]that time period
[5:28:41]92 93 99 2000 2001 during that time
[5:28:44]period
[5:28:47]what did you see when it comes to
[5:28:50]young women in massage all right so i
[5:28:51]saw him receive massages he had
[5:28:54]regular masseuses in the 90s
[5:28:55]people who were standard and who
[5:28:57]traveled with him
[5:28:59]and i saw that he was living in that
[5:29:01]iranian house
[5:29:02]and now that i look back he had
[5:29:06]i didn't stay there but i would go to
[5:29:08]manage the house i would see
[5:29:09]women models
[5:29:13]or people that he would have come to
[5:29:15]the house
[5:29:18]i i know that i thought that he was
[5:29:21]with iva still
[5:29:22]at that time that's what i believed
[5:29:25]and then subsequently
[5:29:26]believed that even though she
[5:29:27]married him i actually
[5:29:29]subsequently believed that the baby
[5:29:30]that she had was his
[5:29:32]can i interrupt for one second yeah
[5:29:33]of course can i just ask some
[5:29:35]some basic top line questions yes
[5:29:37]were you ever in a massage room with
[5:29:39]him and a masseuse
[5:29:42]yes okay when was that well he would
[5:29:46]come in
[5:29:47]sometimes and he would like say or
[5:29:49]like put give her a massage here or
[5:29:50]he would grab my
[5:29:51]you know but not often i mean he did
[5:29:54]come in from time to time
[5:29:55]were you ever in a massage room
[5:29:57]with him with a
[5:29:58]masseuse that was naked or giving him
[5:30:01]any sexual favors i never saw that i
[5:30:04]remember
[5:30:05]okay um did you did you ever did
[5:30:08]did any of the masseuses ever
[5:30:09]discuss with you giving that that
[5:30:11]they gave sexual favors to abstin
[5:30:13]no
[5:30:15]did you ever see an underage girl go
[5:30:17]into a massage room with
[5:30:19]mr abstin no
[5:30:22]um if you had seen that what would
[5:30:24]you have done
[5:30:26]would you have left i can't even
[5:30:29]conceive i i can't even conceive of
[5:30:34]i can't imagine what i would have
[5:30:35]done all right i'm sorry
[5:30:37]no that's okay okay did you ever
[5:30:39]observe um mr abstin masturbating
[5:30:44]during a massage yes um i mean
[5:30:48]when i'd seen him on a massage
[5:30:50]table i had seen him masturbate
[5:30:52]i don't know if there was a masseuse
[5:30:53]present but i've seen him on a
[5:30:54]massage okay sorry yeah just
[5:30:56]did you ever see him masturbate with a
[5:30:58]masseuse you know with with a naked
[5:31:00]woman um
[5:31:03]either giving a massage reporting to
[5:31:05]give a massage
[5:31:06]i i don't remember seeing that
[5:31:10]did you give him massages by the way
[5:31:12]i mean there's a photo of you
[5:31:14]rubbing his feet and i think i said i
[5:31:16]never i i certainly have been in the
[5:31:19]massage room with him and i have
[5:31:21]certainly rubbed his feet
[5:31:22]and when he would we talk and but i
[5:31:25]i was not a masseuse and i didn't
[5:31:27]perform massage on him
[5:31:31]did you um along
[5:31:35]during the over the years did you pay
[5:31:37]the masseuses
[5:31:39]i it was typically not my job but
[5:31:43]if there was nobody else normally so
[5:31:44]in palm beach the houseman would give
[5:31:46]the money
[5:31:48]and in new york he would do that
[5:31:50]because i wouldn't be in new york
[5:31:52]when he i mean i remember ever
[5:31:54]paying a masseuse in new york
[5:31:55]so it wasn't your it wasn't your job on
[5:31:58]a regular
[5:31:59]basis to pay the masseuses so if there
[5:32:01]is a masseuse
[5:32:03]seven days a week it wasn't expected
[5:32:06]that seven days a week you would be
[5:32:07]the one handing them money
[5:32:09]mostly i would not i'm not saying i
[5:32:11]never did it because that wouldn't be
[5:32:13]true but it was not my job to pay
[5:32:14]him i mostly recall
[5:32:16]he would either pay them himself he
[5:32:19]would have money or the houseman
[5:32:22]and i think some of them would have
[5:32:24]probably received checks
[5:32:26]um and so just picking up on what
[5:32:30]mr marcus was just asking you um
[5:32:36]did you participate in sexual activity
[5:32:38]with him
[5:32:39]with a masseuse like at the same time
[5:32:41]no and so this the testimony i don't
[5:32:43]know if there was testimony but
[5:32:45]the women who have said that that
[5:32:48]happened
[5:32:49]um categorically that's not true
[5:32:52]that is categorically not true
[5:32:54]um did you moving past the
[5:33:03]moving into the 2000s i mean i just
[5:33:04]want to say that i have been
[5:33:06]i mean i remember there'd be times
[5:33:08]when he'd be getting a massage i
[5:33:09]would be in the room i could be on
[5:33:11]his feet and somebody else could be on
[5:33:12]his feet and we could be talking
[5:33:14]so there is that but that's not
[5:33:18]you're not talking about something
[5:33:19]that's sexual you talk about
[5:33:20]literally just rubbing his feet
[5:33:21]yes okay but i mean that's not what
[5:33:24]i'm talking about i'm saying
[5:33:25]they could be the sometimes the women
[5:33:27]might be topless who were giving that
[5:33:29]so you could say that was sexual in
[5:33:32]context no i'm talking about
[5:33:35]the repeated reports of of
[5:33:39]certain sex acts happening with you
[5:33:41]present and even participating
[5:33:43]no um did you
[5:33:51]did in the 2000s time period so
[5:33:53]moving a little more recently when
[5:33:54]you talked about it yesterday about
[5:33:56]how your relationship with with
[5:33:59]misrepresentation changed and was
[5:34:01]changing and and you
[5:34:03]ultimately met somebody else um
[5:34:07]did you observe
[5:34:12]um any you know massages
[5:34:16]or young women giving him massages
[5:34:19]later on so after 2000 2001 time
[5:34:21]period
[5:34:22]i'm sure i did and was there
[5:34:24]anything different about what you
[5:34:25]observed
[5:34:26]during that period and the 90s as far as
[5:34:31]the frequency his conduct towards them
[5:34:33]i think the frequency increased i
[5:34:35]think he went from one to two
[5:34:37]in that time period and
[5:34:41]but i did not see i have no
[5:34:45]recollection of ever seeing
[5:34:48]a child entering the house and giving
[5:34:53]him a massage
[5:34:57]i at that time he had moved me out of
[5:35:00]the main house i had moved into an
[5:35:02]office where john alessi the former
[5:35:04]about that under the stairs so i had
[5:35:07]an office
[5:35:08]where i would be that was not part
[5:35:11]of that part of the house
[5:35:13]if i saw people and i'm not saying i
[5:35:15]didn't see
[5:35:16]people come to give him such that
[5:35:17]that wouldn't be true either but
[5:35:20]if i saw someone let's say
[5:35:24]i wouldn't i don't remember ever seeing
[5:35:27]anybody that i would characterize as a
[5:35:29]child now
[5:35:33]specifically someone who accused me of
[5:35:36]seeing her at the time when she came
[5:35:39]if i did see her and i don't believe
[5:35:40]i did see her will meet her at all
[5:35:43]but if she did she was as her
[5:35:46]she's described herself now was very
[5:35:48]mature and
[5:35:49]looked in her 20s so could somebody
[5:35:52]have come
[5:35:53]that was more mature looking than the
[5:35:58]allegation of what she did look like
[5:36:00]with a photograph that was produced as
[5:36:01]evidence
[5:36:02]yes i never
[5:36:06]recall at any time seeing what i would
[5:36:09]characterize as a child
[5:36:11]coming to give him a massage and
[5:36:13]going upstairs
[5:36:14]did i see people come i absolutely did
[5:36:17]did i i just didn't see children
[5:36:21]i didn't see anybody i would think of
[5:36:23]as a child and if i
[5:36:25]had seen a child i wouldn't i
[5:36:28]i'm not sure what i would have done
[5:36:31]did you just talking like coming out
[5:36:35]a little bit of
[5:36:36]just bigger picture do you at the
[5:36:38]time that you were
[5:36:40]in his life did do you
[5:36:43]was he a um did he seem to you to be
[5:36:46]a sexual deviant or or um i don't
[5:36:49]know what the right way to describe
[5:36:50]it but when you say to me
[5:36:52]um he was getting massages every single
[5:36:53]day right so young women were
[5:36:55]everywhere
[5:36:55]multiple massages on some days flew
[5:36:58]with the women to
[5:36:59]the island to new york paris there's
[5:37:02]always women they're always rubbing
[5:37:03]him
[5:37:04]um giving him massages um i think
[5:37:07]it's
[5:37:07]it would be an understatement to say
[5:37:09]that that's not normal i agree
[5:37:11]um what we've all kind of
[5:37:14]been part of the epstein um
[5:37:18]story over the past several years
[5:37:20]but you were there
[5:37:20]at the time okay um what was it like at
[5:37:24]the time
[5:37:24]i mean was he a a creepy guy when it
[5:37:27]came to that sort of thing was he
[5:37:29]protective of how he looked publicly
[5:37:30]image-wise like at the time what was
[5:37:32]it like
[5:37:35]i think if he had been creepy like
[5:37:37]as you would define and you would
[5:37:39]expect someone who was living that
[5:37:41]lifestyle
[5:37:41]to be creepy i don't think the
[5:37:43]women would have been there
[5:37:45]i don't think that they thought of
[5:37:47]him as creepy
[5:37:48]and if they did i never saw them
[5:37:53]behave like he was being weird was it
[5:37:55]a lot
[5:37:56]yes it was for sure i found it
[5:38:00]overwhelming
[5:38:01]and i couldn't understand why it was
[5:38:03]interesting because
[5:38:05]to me it's not interesting um but
[5:38:09]he as he defined it he found it
[5:38:12]invigorating he liked being with
[5:38:14]younger people and now
[5:38:15]not just younger people i'm just
[5:38:17]saying
[5:38:17]because they gave him ideas and they
[5:38:20]were up to date on music
[5:38:22]and yeah but that's different like
[5:38:23]as soon as coming every day
[5:38:25]telling you what he was saying to me
[5:38:27]i mean i i mean to me i just found
[5:38:29]it
[5:38:30]a drag and it difficult and
[5:38:34]annoying did you um understand i
[5:38:43]wasn't the only person present so
[5:38:45]this time in the 2000s you're
[5:38:46]talking about
[5:38:47]other people like sarah cullen who
[5:38:50]was around
[5:38:51]who interfaced with him i didn't have to
[5:38:56]she she was really interfacing with
[5:38:58]epstein at this point in time
[5:39:00]in his life she was running his
[5:39:03]she was his assistant and so i
[5:39:06]didn't have to
[5:39:08]that's a fair point but move beyond
[5:39:11]his assistance or the folks that
[5:39:12]work with him
[5:39:13]what about his friends and the
[5:39:15]people that were associated with him
[5:39:17]um that it couldn't be it doesn't i
[5:39:19]don't understand how that how this is
[5:39:21]um an after-fact of of
[5:39:25]mr epstein so once he's arrested in
[5:39:28]florida
[5:39:29]it becomes part of his story and then
[5:39:31]later on
[5:39:32]he's charged in southern district and
[5:39:34]then here we are now in 2025
[5:39:36]but he was a very successful hard
[5:39:38]working guy
[5:39:39]and he had a lot of clients and he
[5:39:40]flew with them on vacations and went
[5:39:42]to the island
[5:39:43]it doesn't i don't understand how
[5:39:48]he was able to hide this
[5:39:50]what seems to me to be um some sort of
[5:39:53]sexual fixation or issue
[5:39:55]from from others i don't think he did
[5:39:57]hide it i think that's the answer and
[5:39:59]i think that the people around him
[5:40:01]i think myself included
[5:40:02]obviously normalized his
[5:40:06]uh behavior on a number of fronts
[5:40:09]one i think it because it was a
[5:40:13]self
[5:40:14]uh because so many people saw it
[5:40:19]of so of so many such a high caliber
[5:40:23]down that never seemed to think it were
[5:40:27]well if they thought it was strange
[5:40:29]probably they never said it at the
[5:40:30]time so it became
[5:40:32]sort of like it was his thing right
[5:40:34]he was
[5:40:35]always around with women now you
[5:40:39]don't
[5:40:41]i understand that it's very unattractive
[5:40:44]especially in light of everything that
[5:40:46]we know today
[5:40:47]but at the time the only way i can
[5:40:50]sort of
[5:40:54]try and describe it is
[5:40:58]through sex in the city the movie the
[5:41:01]the the show on telly where they this
[5:41:05]is that lifestyle is described on
[5:41:08]the tv show
[5:41:09]constantly there were always these
[5:41:10]women around and men who like it
[5:41:13]and a lot of the men that i know
[5:41:17]like women and so maybe not as
[5:41:20]overtly as epstein but he was
[5:41:22]over not covert except obviously
[5:41:25]in the context of the criminal
[5:41:28]behavior
[5:41:29]so what we're discussing now there's a
[5:41:31]difference between the criminal
[5:41:32]behavior and the non-criminal but you
[5:41:34]don't like the lifestyle
[5:41:35]i concur i agree
[5:41:39]especially now and i i own my side of
[5:41:43]that fence that i
[5:41:45]was there and that i saw
[5:41:50]his behavior with women and didn't
[5:41:53]challenge him or do something but i
[5:41:55]don't
[5:41:56]i don't think back in the 90s
[5:41:59]or the 2000s we've had a cultural shift
[5:42:03]and the cultural shift i think is a
[5:42:05]very important
[5:42:07]um part of the analysis here
[5:42:11]not because i'm trying to justify
[5:42:13]this because i'm not and i'm not
[5:42:14]trying to and i absolutely i'm not
[5:42:17]here to
[5:42:18]do the poor me program so please
[5:42:20]don't misunderstand this
[5:42:21]however in the ninth in the 2000s when
[5:42:25]this behavior was
[5:42:26]going down in the initial blush
[5:42:30]of the palm beach investigation the
[5:42:32]women who brought
[5:42:33]the women who were under age 17 16
[5:42:38]i believe if i'm if my memory serves
[5:42:40]were actually
[5:42:42]targets of the investigation and
[5:42:44]could have been charged with
[5:42:45]prostitution
[5:42:46]and trafficking i would have if
[5:42:48]trafficking was even a law
[5:42:50]so you're taking you're taking behavior
[5:42:55]and i did introduce him to
[5:42:58]women i i did but
[5:43:01]not under age women i understand that
[5:43:05]there are allegations i have read them
[5:43:07]about myself going to schools i can
[5:43:09]categorically tell you that i have
[5:43:11]never in my life
[5:43:13]gone to a school to pick up a child
[5:43:16]uh well not for this purpose i mean
[5:43:21]like my stepchildren okay sorry just
[5:43:23]no i understand okay thank you i just
[5:43:25]just want to be clear that i'm not
[5:43:27]trying to be
[5:43:28]cute or anything um but
[5:43:31]and i did look for masseuses i i
[5:43:34]i did i went to spas and if i met
[5:43:37]somebody who said she was a masseuse i
[5:43:40]did not check their credentials and
[5:43:42]of course if she was attractive
[5:43:44]i did introduce it yes if i met
[5:43:46]friends who interest he was
[5:43:47]constantly asking me for
[5:43:50]to meet new and interesting people i i
[5:43:52]did i did
[5:43:53]do that at the time i viewed it
[5:43:56]as well first of all part of my
[5:44:01]job i think or part of my
[5:44:03]responsibility if you were to
[5:44:04]introduce
[5:44:05]because it wasn't just women if i
[5:44:07]met somebody who was interesting like
[5:44:08]like mary gellman or who i thought
[5:44:10]he would i i did that so it's not
[5:44:12]exclusively but he did
[5:44:16]and i did do that so but
[5:44:19]then so i'm gonna layer on top of what
[5:44:21]you just said what we talked about
[5:44:22]yesterday more but a little bit today
[5:44:24]already
[5:44:25]which is everybody that was around him
[5:44:27]besides you
[5:44:28]like his friends so i i accept the
[5:44:32]lifestyle i've seen the photos the
[5:44:33]fact everybody's we're all going to go
[5:44:35]to the island for the a couple days
[5:44:36]or fly on a private plane and
[5:44:38]there's beautiful women everywhere
[5:44:40]is there any i mean do you as you
[5:44:43]sit here today think that
[5:44:45]the people around him didn't also
[5:44:48]weren't also of the same place where
[5:44:52]they were also
[5:44:55]getting massages where there was sex
[5:44:58]going on during them or
[5:45:00]or things like that and i and i'm
[5:45:02]obviously asking this because that's
[5:45:03]what the that's what
[5:45:04]what what everybody has said and when
[5:45:06]when you just described what
[5:45:08]what it was like the the very next
[5:45:12]step from that is is everybody's going
[5:45:14]to vegas for the weekend you know
[5:45:15]and so and so you it seems kind of
[5:45:19]far-fetched to say that yes that was
[5:45:21]his lifestyle
[5:45:23]but then when he's taking groups of
[5:45:25]folks to the island or groups of folks
[5:45:27]to new mexico or whatever
[5:45:29]that they're all um you know going to
[5:45:32]church in the morning while he's
[5:45:33]getting a massage
[5:45:34]i i hear you i i was there though
[5:45:37]and yeah and you're talking about
[5:45:40]very substantial people and you are
[5:45:44]extrapolating because the narrative
[5:45:47]that started in by the way not until
[5:45:50]2009 is when it really started
[5:45:55]so that narrative that was created and
[5:45:57]then
[5:45:58]built upon and it just mushroomed into
[5:46:01]what
[5:46:02]basically this is like a salem witch
[5:46:04]trial people gone lost their minds for
[5:46:05]this thing
[5:46:07]i understand that but the issue is
[5:46:10]how do you satisfy a mob who can't
[5:46:13]understand the lifestyle because it's
[5:46:15]like p diddy in redux on tv with
[5:46:19]clintons and drunk i mean it's it's
[5:46:22]bananas
[5:46:23]and while some of it is
[5:46:27]real he did do those things i'm
[5:46:30]definitely not disputing that but this
[5:46:32]was a man
[5:46:34]and he didn't even believe he had a
[5:46:35]real business i happen to believe he
[5:46:37]did
[5:46:39]did he grip i don't i don't know
[5:46:41]because i wasn't
[5:46:42]really in his business but this is
[5:46:44]this is the one man he's not some
[5:46:48]they've made him into this
[5:46:50]this he he's not that interesting
[5:46:54]he's a disgusting
[5:46:58]guy who did terrible things to young
[5:47:00]kids
[5:47:00]you're not going to hear me say
[5:47:02]what he did to people who are over
[5:47:03]the age 18
[5:47:04]i i'm sorry i'm not going to go
[5:47:07]that's just not what i'm here to
[5:47:09]i mean i okay
[5:47:14]but to suggest that larry summers or
[5:47:24]clinton would certainly go home my gosh
[5:47:27]this is like a guy i'm going to get
[5:47:28]my
[5:47:29]body rubbed and have something
[5:47:32]the men that went had a massage and
[5:47:34]maybe did something
[5:47:36]sexual i'm in
[5:47:39]i i wasn't in the room i cannot
[5:47:42]tell you if that happened
[5:47:44]and if it did not i never paid for that
[5:47:47]just so that we're clear nobody ever
[5:47:49]said to me oh you know we had
[5:47:50]sexual intercourse and that's if it was
[5:47:52]a three
[5:47:54]i'll be like okay tmi no i'm not my
[5:47:57]business you want to
[5:47:58]it's just not and i didn't want to
[5:48:00]know maybe there's that
[5:48:03]but did i like think these guys
[5:48:06]were coming for that
[5:48:07]i really don't if you met epstein
[5:48:10]there is no way that this cast the
[5:48:12]characters of which it's extraordinary
[5:48:14]and some of you in your cabinet who
[5:48:17]you value as your co-workers and you
[5:48:20]know
[5:48:21]would be with him if he was a creep
[5:48:24]or because they wanted sexual favors a
[5:48:26]man wants sexual favors he will find
[5:48:29]that they didn't have to come to
[5:48:30]epstein for that
[5:48:32]now did some okay i don't know
[5:48:37]i wasn't there i didn't see it um
[5:48:40]so when's the last time you think
[5:48:50]you were with mr epstein
[5:48:53]when he got got a massage
[5:48:56]um i want to say
[5:49:03]2007 2007 yes
[5:49:07]um and the frequency
[5:49:16]at that point so 2007 is that when it
[5:49:19]was at its peak would you say
[5:49:22]meaning the number of interactions he was
[5:49:24]having
[5:49:25]daily with women and masseuses
[5:49:29]i wasn't really in his life i happened
[5:49:31]to be in the caribbean
[5:49:32]in 2000 i was with ted and we
[5:49:36]i was still speaking with epstein
[5:49:37]because i was still involved
[5:49:39]in his you know lucy with his
[5:49:42]uh the houses and the staff some of
[5:49:45]the billing
[5:49:46]and he and i was going back from
[5:49:49]being with ted in the caribbean
[5:49:51]to new york and epstein offered me a
[5:49:53]ride
[5:49:53]and so ted dropped me off in saint
[5:49:56]thomas and i was on the island i
[5:49:57]believe
[5:49:59]for one day and one night only on
[5:50:02]that
[5:50:02]visit i believe well i know he would
[5:50:05]have gotten a massage but i have
[5:50:07]uh that there were people there
[5:50:10]but i did not there were women
[5:50:14]and i was just relieved not
[5:50:17]believing the next day
[5:50:18]um let's take a break we're going to
[5:50:21]take a break the time is 11 31
[5:50:27]we are resuming the audio recorded
[5:50:30]proffer agreement with miss maxwell
[5:50:33]and the time is 11 49 a
[5:50:37]i wanted to um follow up about um
[5:50:45]former president clinton's relationship
[5:50:47]with mr epstein not not you
[5:50:54]can you we touched on it but can
[5:50:55]you just accept that i have a couple
[5:50:57]questions about it but
[5:50:58]what's your understanding of their
[5:51:00]relationship from what you observed
[5:51:04]meaning for president clinton and mr
[5:51:06]epstein
[5:51:07]i saw them talk i saw them sit down
[5:51:09]and have chats about
[5:51:11]i don't know because i wasn't either
[5:51:14]party or
[5:51:15]didn't listen um and i
[5:51:19]know i would characterize originally
[5:51:21]anyway mr epstein's interested in
[5:51:23]because obviously the former
[5:51:23]president
[5:51:25]but i never saw him other than that
[5:51:28]i saw them
[5:51:29]be friendly on the plane but i never i
[5:51:31]don't believe
[5:51:32]i i don't recollect anyway ever seen
[5:51:34]them
[5:51:35]in any other context i don't remember
[5:51:37]him at his house
[5:51:39]in new york like i said i don't
[5:51:41]believe he ever went to the island i
[5:51:42]think that was just a
[5:51:45]that was a story that did
[5:51:48]do you know one way or the other
[5:51:50]whether their relationship continued
[5:51:53]without you like when you kind of
[5:51:55]moved on past mr epstein
[5:51:58]i don't believe so why do you say that
[5:52:00]you don't believe because i don't think
[5:52:01]they had a relationship
[5:52:02]even when i was there i was i
[5:52:07]president clinton
[5:52:10]liked me and we got along
[5:52:15]terribly well but i never saw that
[5:52:17]warmth
[5:52:18]or that that warmth like
[5:52:22]how you want to characterize it with
[5:52:23]mr epstein and so
[5:52:25]i didn't see that i didn't see any
[5:52:26]interesting i didn't see
[5:52:28]president clinton being interested in
[5:52:30]epstein he was just a rich guy with a
[5:52:32]plane
[5:52:33]when when the southern New York
[5:52:36]case kind of became public and there
[5:52:38]was a search warrant of mr
[5:52:40]Epstein's house there was like a
[5:52:41]there was some sort of painting or
[5:52:43]picture with mr clinton and like a
[5:52:45]blue dress that had been signed
[5:52:47]did you know do you know where he
[5:52:49]got that picture
[5:52:50]first i saw it was in the press so
[5:52:52]you never
[5:52:53]observed that in his um
[5:52:57]brownstone no i thought it was hideous
[5:53:00]what's that again i thought it was
[5:53:01]hideous
[5:53:03]and but you had never so you don't
[5:53:04]know sitting here today
[5:53:06]where mr epstein got it the
[5:53:08]circumstances what you got it
[5:53:09]no um do you know of any other
[5:53:14]gifts or paraphernalia or art or
[5:53:19]pictures
[5:53:20]that former president clinton gave to
[5:53:22]mr epstein
[5:53:25]um no i mean did he maybe get him a
[5:53:29]gift i don't know
[5:53:30]i have no knowledge of that and then
[5:53:36]going back to the topic we were
[5:53:37]talking about before our last break
[5:53:41]well when you you said something
[5:53:44]yesterday at the very beginning of
[5:53:45]our conversation
[5:53:47]that when you first met mr epstein
[5:53:51]and you ultimately have sex with him
[5:53:54]that he had um i'll use the word
[5:53:59]erectile dysfunction but he had issues
[5:54:01]having sex um that's what he told me
[5:54:04]that's what he told you
[5:54:05]yes okay and um and then over the
[5:54:08]years he said
[5:54:09]sometime in the 90s he started taking
[5:54:10]testosterone
[5:54:11]yes right i don't know if it was in
[5:54:13]the 90s i don't remember when he
[5:54:15]started but
[5:54:15]it wasn't he had patches testosterone
[5:54:19]okay um dermal like on his arm
[5:54:22]yes okay and then he was ridiculous
[5:54:25]because you shouldn't take more than
[5:54:26]one but sometimes he had like well i'm
[5:54:27]like what are you doing it's like
[5:54:29]unhealthy okay um from what you
[5:54:33]observed or
[5:54:34]saw or heard did he continue to have
[5:54:37]challenges sexually over the years or
[5:54:40]do you think that whatever he told
[5:54:41]you
[5:54:42]whatever issue he told you he had was
[5:54:44]fixed
[5:54:45]i think it was a lie you think it's
[5:54:47]lying about what
[5:54:48]about his erectile dysfunction oh you
[5:54:51]mean you never
[5:54:52]you don't think he ever had any issues
[5:54:53]you think he just told you that right
[5:54:54]that is what i believe today yeah but
[5:54:56]given if any of the stories are true
[5:54:58]you couldn't have had erectile
[5:54:59]dysfunction that they had a prior
[5:55:00]pistol for christ's sake
[5:55:02]well that's well that's one of the
[5:55:03]reasons for my questions i mean
[5:55:05]you're right i mean and again we're
[5:55:06]we're
[5:55:07]we've talked about this a fair amount
[5:55:09]but um
[5:55:11]what did like the stories of what
[5:55:14]masseuse's
[5:55:15]underage and overage have said about
[5:55:18]him is
[5:55:19]or you know and what he liked what he
[5:55:25]demanded that they do whether it's
[5:55:27]watching him masturbate
[5:55:28]or um pinching his nipples you know
[5:55:31]kind of things that
[5:55:32]that are unusual do you believe that
[5:55:35]like do you
[5:55:36]from what you saw from what you
[5:55:38]observed from what you did when you
[5:55:39]relationship with him
[5:55:41]um is that true i well
[5:55:44]the bulk of what i read he did not
[5:55:46]have sex
[5:55:47]so that is consistent with what he
[5:55:48]told me actually
[5:55:50]and his masturbating that is also
[5:55:52]consistent with
[5:55:53]what i knew myself and um
[5:55:57]i'm going to use a bad word please
[5:56:00]you can use whatever word you need
[5:56:01]yes blowjob okay he liked blowjobs
[5:56:05]that i did observe and he didn't
[5:56:07]seem to have any erectile dysfunction
[5:56:08]for blowjobs but sex he didn't have
[5:56:10]so when
[5:56:12]i read the stories about the
[5:56:15]allegations
[5:56:15]of sexual rape i find that
[5:56:18]challenging because that was not his
[5:56:20]modus operandi
[5:56:21]from my perspective but when you read
[5:56:24]about
[5:56:25]um blowjobs that does that that would
[5:56:28]be consistent with that would be
[5:56:30]consistent as would masturbation yes
[5:56:33]did you talk to
[5:56:36]masseuses or women that either he was
[5:56:39]in a relationship with or um
[5:56:42]who asked you about working with him
[5:56:45]did you tell them yes he likes blowjobs
[5:56:48]yes he'll
[5:56:49]masturbate in front of you like did
[5:56:50]you have conversations with
[5:56:52]any of those with women about
[5:56:55]what mr repstein liked or what would
[5:56:58]make him happy or things like that
[5:57:00]i don't have any memory of telling
[5:57:02]anybody about that i think i may have
[5:57:04]joked like saying oh my god you
[5:57:06]know
[5:57:06]like from a sex in the city scene
[5:57:09]that uh you know he's
[5:57:11]but not i never instruct the
[5:57:13]question you're asking me sorry let's
[5:57:14]just be clear
[5:57:15]did i ever instruct anyone how to
[5:57:17]pressure mr repstein your question
[5:57:19]no
[5:57:21]um and you said this earlier but i want
[5:57:24]to just
[5:57:25]you you kind of said it on your own i
[5:57:26]want to ask the question just to make
[5:57:28]sure that
[5:57:29]there's no confusion um
[5:57:34]when when you
[5:57:38]over the years um sorry can i just
[5:57:41]of course
[5:57:42]i just want to say the idea that i
[5:57:44]would have to explain to a woman
[5:57:45]how to satisfy with seeing this
[5:57:47]patron name so because he clearly was
[5:57:49]able to explain himself
[5:57:50]he didn't need an interlocutor to
[5:57:52]explain what he liked
[5:57:54]he's been doing this obviously with
[5:57:56]this some
[5:57:57]version of their story his whole life
[5:57:59]and did not require
[5:58:01]any help from me then um
[5:58:08]so did you did you did you ever
[5:58:10]observe him
[5:58:11]having sex with a masseuse regular
[5:58:14]intercourse not a blowjob nothing
[5:58:16]else
[5:58:16]were you either walked in or you were
[5:58:18]in the room i never saw i have seen
[5:58:19]have sex with any person
[5:58:25]and so how about um oral sex
[5:58:30]did you ever observe a woman giving
[5:58:33]him
[5:58:33]oral sex with you were in the room or
[5:58:36]walked in
[5:58:37]or i never saw anyone go i've seen a
[5:58:39]blowjob
[5:58:43]but you said earlier you you did see
[5:58:45]him
[5:58:46]masturbating in front of masseuses i
[5:58:49]don't know if i said that
[5:58:50]i don't know okay sorry i don't want
[5:58:52]let me ask the question sorry
[5:58:53]no that's fair that's fair i said i
[5:58:56]saw him
[5:58:57]i'm sure i saw him in a what some people
[5:59:00]could define a sexual
[5:59:02]context because somebody could not have
[5:59:03]their clothes or topless i would say
[5:59:05]maybe
[5:59:06]i i could say that if i saw him
[5:59:09]having uh masturbating when someone was
[5:59:11]like
[5:59:12]i don't recall that i don't have a
[5:59:14]specific memory of it i'm sorry
[5:59:16]but no i'm not okay i didn't say
[5:59:18]that
[5:59:19]okay i don't understand that's fair
[5:59:20]sorry i'm not that's okay surely not
[5:59:22]trying to put words in your mouth
[5:59:23]no no um that's that actually no it's
[5:59:24]fine so
[5:59:28]um and you you said i think in passing
[5:59:33]maybe not in passing your story about
[5:59:34]about you know whether whether other
[5:59:39]people who travel with him would get
[5:59:40]massages
[5:59:43]or so that would i'm when i say
[5:59:45]that i'm referring
[5:59:46]mostly to the island or potentially new
[5:59:49]mexico
[5:59:51]but also at the his palm beach
[5:59:52]residence or even in new york
[5:59:55]do you know do you have a list of names
[5:59:58]in your head
[5:59:58]or um names that come to mind
[6:00:01]of of people that you know did get
[6:00:04]massages
[6:00:05]when they were with mr upstein no
[6:00:07]there's no list
[6:00:09]there's no list of people getting
[6:00:10]massages i don't have
[6:00:12]i can barely recall all the people
[6:00:13]i i can barely recall
[6:00:17]i i struggle to recall actual people
[6:00:19]that i met and i
[6:00:20]may have met a long time i had even
[6:00:23]forgotten that
[6:00:24]about mr kennedy or i probably brought it
[6:00:26]up yesterday it just
[6:00:27]came to my mind now so i don't have
[6:00:30]and there's no list there was never a
[6:00:31]list there was no
[6:00:33]or certainly none that i ever saw
[6:00:35]none i ever heard of none that i
[6:00:36]ever witnessed none that i
[6:00:39]there's no list there's never been a
[6:00:40]list and you never heard mr upstein
[6:00:43]talk about such a list never
[6:00:47]and you never heard mr upstein
[6:00:50]suggest that he had some sort of control
[6:00:54]over somebody because of what he knew
[6:00:56]about what they had done or had photos
[6:01:00]of them
[6:01:00]i never heard him now i never heard
[6:01:02]him ask questions about that i never
[6:01:04]heard him
[6:01:06]so i've been present many times with
[6:01:08]masseuses
[6:01:09]i never who presumably could or maybe
[6:01:12]did massage somebody
[6:01:13]and i'm not saying that they don't
[6:01:14]know just in the god i never heard
[6:01:16]him ask
[6:01:18]any question of any masseuse who may
[6:01:20]have given a massage to a friend who
[6:01:22]was on the island or in bar beach or
[6:01:23]anywhere else for that
[6:01:24]any details about that massage
[6:01:27]like does he have a frumpy foot no
[6:01:29]and i never heard that
[6:01:31]it'd be weird
[6:01:33]and i think at one of the breaks
[6:01:36]today
[6:01:37]your lawyer may have showed you
[6:01:40]something that just came out in the
[6:01:41]paper i think this morning or last
[6:01:43]night
[6:01:44]a letter that you that that is
[6:01:48]attributed to you
[6:01:50]associated with this birthday book from
[6:01:52]2003 that we talked about
[6:01:54]yesterday is did you see that letter
[6:01:57]i did
[6:01:58]is that in fact just look like
[6:02:00]your handwriting or something you
[6:02:00]wrote
[6:02:01]so i don't remember the letter okay
[6:02:03]but it does look like my
[6:02:04]handwriting and it does look like my
[6:02:06]name
[6:02:06]and it looks like it could be real
[6:02:09]but i have no memory of writing that
[6:02:10]and i i don't remember it at all
[6:02:13]do you remember what the birthday book
[6:02:16]as they're calling it
[6:02:17]would it like look like like what how
[6:02:19]it was put together i do
[6:02:20]what do you remember about it i
[6:02:22]remember it it was leather bound
[6:02:24]and i remember it being about yay big
[6:02:26]it was big
[6:02:27]so you're saying it looks like it's
[6:02:28]like over 12 inches 14 15 inches yes
[6:02:31]it was like
[6:02:32]sort of like folio size i guess or
[6:02:34]something like that and like this
[6:02:36]and it was brown and thick about
[6:02:39]this thick
[6:02:40]okay and so just so you
[6:02:44]so i understand on heavy stock paper
[6:02:46]heavy stock paper like 14 inches high
[6:02:50]that looks about right and then around
[6:02:52]like
[6:02:53]well a4 a4 we had a4 because it was
[6:02:55]done on
[6:02:56]heavy stock paper but i can't remember
[6:02:58]if it was folio size paper
[6:03:00]or it could have just been a4 oh i
[6:03:02]see so it could have just been
[6:03:03]letter size or it might have been
[6:03:04]legal size yes heavy stock paper
[6:03:07]and the so the the folks that submitted
[6:03:11]letters
[6:03:12]were given the stock paper or how were
[6:03:14]the letters
[6:03:15]or did you like glue or something the
[6:03:18]letters to the stock paper
[6:03:19]every which way some were given the
[6:03:21]paper and they did their own thing
[6:03:23]some would send me some scrap of
[6:03:25]paper and i would
[6:03:26]put it on the thing some i didn't
[6:03:29]get because
[6:03:29]they get straight to epstein and i
[6:03:31]was just told to put them in
[6:03:33]like i said and how was it bound
[6:03:37]it went to a professional binder who
[6:03:40]did it
[6:03:40]like a book that you'd see in the
[6:03:42]library so like like the glue that
[6:03:44]keeps a regular book a novel that you
[6:03:46]would read together
[6:03:47]it was bound that way i believe so i
[6:03:50]don't think it was stitched but i
[6:03:51]don't remember
[6:03:52]i mean it was professionally done by
[6:03:54]a professional book binder
[6:03:57]and then after you presented it or
[6:04:00]after it was presented to him
[6:04:02]when he turned 50 did you see the
[6:04:04]leather bound book did he keep it
[6:04:06]somewhere in particular
[6:04:07]it was in his bookcase in 71st street
[6:04:11]in manhattan in manhattan and did you
[6:04:13]see it
[6:04:15]over the years and until you stopped
[6:04:16]going to the brownstone
[6:04:19]i saw it i know i did see it
[6:04:21]because it was right behind his death
[6:04:24]and after i stopped going i don't
[6:04:26]know what happened to it
[6:04:27]and do you know do you remember
[6:04:31]being told or knowing
[6:04:33]where the book is now
[6:04:35]no but i when i received in discovery
[6:04:38]those pages
[6:04:39]i assumed that it had been found
[6:04:42]when
[6:04:42]uh either new york or the island was
[6:04:46]searched and i assumed that the
[6:04:48]southern district of new york had it
[6:04:50]but i think you said yesterday but
[6:04:51]just to go over it again in case
[6:04:54]you remember anything differently you
[6:04:56]recall
[6:04:57]seeing some of the letters in
[6:04:58]discovery i do
[6:05:01]but you don't recall kind of seeing
[6:05:03]the leather book start to finish
[6:05:05]no but remember i didn't see all
[6:05:07]discovery because they were very clever
[6:05:09]about
[6:05:09]you know i didn't receive all
[6:05:10]discovery period and
[6:05:13]in fact very important items were not
[6:05:16]given to me at all
[6:05:17]including witness testimony from grand
[6:05:19]jury
[6:05:20]so whether so you don't know one
[6:05:23]where the other were whether it was
[6:05:24]part of discovery you just know
[6:05:25]that you didn't get it it wasn't part
[6:05:27]of discovery that was given to you
[6:05:28]correct
[6:05:30]but there's i i don't i'm absolutely
[6:05:32]sure that the southern district of new
[6:05:33]york hid
[6:05:34]very important pieces of evidence from
[6:05:37]okay um
[6:05:41]and i assumed that they leaked it
[6:05:44]because where else would it be
[6:05:47]if that's what it is if it's true
[6:05:54]so
[6:05:55]i've just so i put i'll say it to
[6:05:58]you
[6:05:59]i've talked a little bit more about
[6:06:00]it um
[6:06:02]i said to you yesterday um
[6:06:05]that the purpose of what we did
[6:06:07]yesterday and today was
[6:06:09]was exactly what we did which is to
[6:06:11]have a conversation about
[6:06:12]about about mr abstin about you and
[6:06:16]um i think it's it's very
[6:06:19]challenging
[6:06:19]to talk about everything we talked
[6:06:22]about in
[6:06:24]you know one and a half days or in
[6:06:27]just a period of hours so
[6:06:29]i'll talk to to mr marcus about kind
[6:06:32]of what we're going to do next if
[6:06:34]anything
[6:06:36]there's no and i don't i'm not being
[6:06:39]coy or i just i don't know yet i
[6:06:42]don't know so we
[6:06:43]i have a lot of um we have some
[6:06:46]work to do
[6:06:47]um we'll do it with your lawyers to
[6:06:49]extent we have questions or follow-up
[6:06:54]and um this has been very helpful i
[6:06:58]i think it's it was you
[6:07:01]you know who kind of said you wanted
[6:07:03]to talk but
[6:07:04]but it we we gladly accepted so so i
[6:07:07]do appreciate you
[6:07:09]um being willing to meet with us
[6:07:12]um and and i i expect that will that
[6:07:16]will be in touch
[6:07:18]soon this concludes the recorded
[6:07:26]proffer interview of miss maxwell
[6:07:28]the time is 12 05 p.m on friday july
[6:07:32]twenty-fifth