[0:03]Hi everybody. I'm Britney Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes. Joining me now is Toana Burke, the founder of the Me Too movement. Toana, thank you so much for joining me.
[0:13]>> Thank you for having me. >> At the end of 2025, and the beginning of 2026, the Department of Justice released millions of documents related to Jeffrey Epstein. By now, we all know who Jeffrey
[0:24]Epstein is. He's a convicted child sex offender who was very well connected to the rich and the powerful. And through all these files, we're learning more and more about those relationships, his financial enablers, and his criminal
[0:36]network in general. Epstein has been a topic of national conversation for years now. But you recently penned a piece called What America Gets Wrong about Jeffrey Epstein. To start off the
[0:46]conversation, what is it? >> Well, you know, I felt compelled to say something and myself along with my some of my colleagues. I'm I'm the chair of a
[0:56]group called um All-In Global Leaders for Ending Gender-Based Violence and we have been having this ongoing conversation about what um what our role
[1:07]is in replying and responding and although through me too international and my organization we've we've responded I think it was really
[1:15]important to help give America sort of um a framework for how to think about this case because I think thus far we've
[1:25]been seeing it handled almost like a collective true crime, you know, episode, right? Where people are going through the files and they're and they're like, you know, trying to figure
[1:36]out who's in it and who did what and connect such and, you know, this person to that. And I think that um it misses, which often times happens, it misses a larger point about who should be
[1:48]centered, which are the survivors, right? And so I think that the narrative that we have around, you know, the big rich and powerful guy who was doing
[1:57]favors for the other big rich and powerful guy um is shortsighted, right? The fact of the matter is we
[2:07]created and and I'm by the we cuz some people pushed back on that. I mean the royal we America created uh the space
[2:17]for Jeffrey Epstein to exist. And what the files are showing us are exactly how that intricate web of power operates and it gives us a road mapap to dismantling it.
[2:29]>> I want to dive a little deeper in there. I want to read a direct line from the piece which says exactly that the real lesson of the Epstein files is this. We built the world that made him possible.
[2:40]I want to talk about how because I'm sure a lot of people who either read the piece or they're watching this now are thinking, you know, I don't really want to live in a same world that made
[2:50]someone like Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, how did we make that world a let's start there? >> Well, and I think there was a lot a lot of people had visceral responses to
[3:00]that, you know, they heard like we built the world and they said, well, I I had nothing to do with it. You know, he he built that world and he was a monster. And I think one separating us and then
[3:11]and when I say us again I mean society from the way we operate daily and and making Jeffrey Epste an anomaly doesn't help us to get to the issue. When I say
[3:21]we built that world, I mean anybody that participates in patriarchy, that participates in rape culture, right, is is building and helping to create a
[3:31]world that makes it okay for a Jeffrey Epstein. When we watch how power protects itself and we don't respond to that, we help create a world that allows
[3:41]for a Jeffrey Epstein. And so we think that these things aren't connected, but they are connected. things like, you know, the way that we respond to sexual
[3:52]violence when we hear about it, the way that people respond, you know, I'm trained to have a different response now. But without a social justice lens or that background, the average person
[4:02]starts questioning. We saw it even in this case with with Jeffrey Epstein. You saw some people say, "Well, those girls were they're not girls. They were young women. They were older." You know, like every time we question, every time we
[4:14]push back, all of those things create a world for Jeffrey Epstein. >> I think we've seen Jeffrey Epstein and people like him do monstrous things.
[4:24]People have called Jeffrey Epstein a monster. You don't like that label. And I want to dive into exactly why. Because I think calling him a monster makes people comfortable, right? And it's like
[4:36]we're human. We're operating on one plane. that monster over there is operating on a different plane and we eradicated that problem. He's gone. He is no longer here. We're safe. Job done.
[4:47]And that's not really the case because you're saying Jeffrey Epstein's not an anomaly. He's not an outlier. There's more Epstein right now. >> There are more Epstein and there are more versions of Epste. Everybody is not
[4:58]Everybody that's an Epstein air quotes is not, you know, doesn't own an island and is not a power rich power broker. But we have these bastions of power that
[5:09]exist in every facet of society. Even whether you're in a lowwealth community and there is a a pastor in that community that's powerful that is that is abusing that power or you are in the
[5:19]White House, right? People, it's about how you respond to the power that you that you've accumulated. And so calling him a monster, it does exactly what you
[5:30]said. It separates him from us and says he's that kind of person. It's those it's that monster that does this when
[5:38]there are very there are very complex um issues that we see. For instance, this this recent news about Cesar Chavez. The average person would not call Cesar
[5:48]Chavez an a monster, right? The average person who knows his history and knows his legacy would have never called him a monster. And even today after hearing
[6:00]this news, there are some people who will not who wouldn't call him a monster. But he did monstrous things and he was able to do those things because of the power that he held.
[6:10]>> You wrote that one of the biggest takeaways we can have from the files is identifying patterns and trends to identify these Epstein that are still operating out there. What trends do you
[6:21]think we need to pick up on to say, you know what, I mean, maybe not on the scale of Jeffrey Epstein, but this person in my community is behaving in this way. Yeah, I think that, you know,
[6:32]I call sexual violence the canary in the coal mine. Um because often times when you see issues of sexual violence, there are other issues there just like we see in the Epstein case. You you know there
[6:44]was there's rampid sexual violence, sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, but there's also a number of other issues, right? A number of other things that have been discovered about how he
[6:54]operated and with who he operated because of that. And I think in our own communities when we see issues of sexual violence arise, we often try to individualize it. Again, that bad actor
[7:06]and this innocent victim had this interaction and and this person needs to go get punished and this person needs to go get, you know, healing and that's the end of it. And we don't look at what
[7:17]else is there. And so I think the lessons that we see in the files about relationships, you know, how people build relationships and what that looks like, birds of a feather, you know, you
[7:29]know, the there there are often there there are often um signs, right, that we ignore. And I think it would do a better
[7:39]service to us to not just search through the files, to look for who we can take down for their past sins, but to look for the patterns that we see replicated all around us.
[7:50]>> Like you said earlier, people really are treating the Epstein files like a true crime. They're looking through them. They're seeing all of the people named past presidents, politicians, the rich,
[8:02]the famous, the powerful, the movers, and the shakers of the world. And some people named in these files who their relationships with Epstein were exposed.
[8:12]They faced consequences at the very least had to answer questions about those relationships. Most have not though. But when you're looking through these files, the videos, the photos, the
[8:23]emails. What specifically are you thinking? >> I'm looking at relationships. I'm looking at their proximity and how they were able to have proximity to
[8:34]these young people unquestioned. I'm looking at how power operates and how these bastions of power come to be. Right? This was a single man who and and
[8:46]woman because we should not forget Maxwell who is equally as as complicit in this. So these people who got together and decided they were going to
[8:56]use this as a mechanism to build these relationships and then hold up hold the power in those relationships. And so I'm looking at again things that I can see
[9:06]replicated all around me and I think we have seen them. I mean you can the the case of you know it's not going to be dollars for dollars apples for apples
[9:16]right when you when you see the things replicated but when you see people with power and I think we only accumulate we only associate power with wealth but that's not the case there are all kinds
[9:27]of people who have these differential power dynamics and it doesn't really have to always do with money it again it could be the pastor in the church it could be the person in the home right it
[9:38]could be the older person to a younger It could be a parent to a child. Like there are all kind of power relationships that we have to always examine and examine how people interact
[9:48]with the young people. One of the things I think that's not talked about enough here is children, right? The the survivors themselves are, you know, you see them,
[9:59]they're holding up pictures to make it the really crystal clear. This is how old I was when this happened. We just heard this testimony on the congression, you know, uh was it congressional floor
[10:09]yesterday or the day before about the 13-year-old, right? Like these these ages, we need to be really cognizant like these are not young with just young
[10:19]women. These are children and there's not enough conversation about how we protect our children, what things we put in place to protect our children, and also not criminalizing our children.
[10:29]Right? a 14-year-old from a a lowwealth community who is who is um uh what is the the word that is groomed, excuse me,
[10:40]that is groomed by an adult with more money and power is not at fault in that and is not in complicit in their own abuse. I think something that makes people so
[10:50]angry when they hear this story in particular is the fact that children were involved here. And it feels like based on the names and the people we're seeing that the rich and the powerful,
[11:01]they don't think the rules apply to them. They operate in a way that they feel entitled to abuse people. And by people, I mean women, I mean children in
[11:11]this way and not face consequences for a really long time. People are really angry about that. So, how do aside from looking and identifying these types of relationships and then putting that into
[11:22]your own community, how do people harness that anger? >> Oh man, there's so many ways to harness your anger right now, right? I think
[11:29]that we we are not used to seeing um public outcries that that manifest into real organized efforts when it comes to sexual violence. And so, you know, we
[11:41]see the social media post and we'll see things pop off here and here, maybe an article or two written, but I do I think that people can take this to the streets. I think that when you see
[11:51]survivors gathering, like the the survivors are very active in this case. We need to one follow their leadership. So, you want to harness your anger, look and see what the survivors are asking
[12:02]for support around as opposed to creating some new thing that we think might benefit them. we should follow the leadership of the people who said I was harmed and I need this thing to be done
[12:12]to help me to to to deal with this harm. They have petitions, they have lawsuits, they have all kinds of efforts coming from the survivor that the specifically the Epstein and Maxwell survivor
[12:23]community that I think is are great places for people to harness their anger. And again, we can harness our anger at the polls, right? That's a
[12:34]great place to have a reflection of how you feel about an issue because again we like to default to especially now the
[12:45]bar has become I wasn't in the files right so it if so facto this is a good person because they wasn't they weren't in the Epstein files and the bar has to
[12:54]be higher than that even our politicians who weren't in the files who don't have a history of sexual violence have a responsibility to keep our community safe. So, we need to take some of that
[13:05]outrage and take it to the streets, take it to our law law enforcement, take it to um politicians and say this is what we require. When you talk about violence
[13:15]in our communities, we don't just mean gun violence. We also mean sexual violence, gender- based violence. These are all things that we want to feel safe from in these communities. And we're angry about it, right? We're angry that
[13:26]our children are being exploited. They're angry that our children now have to turn on social media or television and have to hear about these things and and re they're not kids are not dumb like they know what's
[13:38]some ch children across the country I'm sure are asking who is Epstein because the name is everywhere and now you know parents have to have these conversations because the the community where he
[13:49]originated didn't keep other people safe. So yeah, I think tons of ways. Look for your local organizations that deal with sexual and gender based
[13:59]violence in your community and and find out what they're doing that is survivor centered um and led and join those efforts. >> I think a takeaway for me in this
[14:10]conversation is just how important your words around this type of conversation are and you have to choose those words to get a certain point across because they have a lot of weight to them. for
[14:22]example, don't use the word monster. Say children if you're talking about children. And I think something important also too is sexual and gender- based violence. That's a pandemic.
[14:33]That's what you wrote in the piece. So to solve this, you solve a pandemic. Everyone has to be involved. What political action would you want to see? What laws on the books tomorrow if you
[14:44]could have them would you want to see enacted to help eradicate this? You know, I get asked this question a lot and I think specifically from a from a United States perspective, uh, rape is
[14:56]against the law in all 50 states, right? There are laws in every state in America that are set up to protect the community
[15:05]allegedly from sexual and andor gender- based violence. What I would like to see is a culture shift. We need a culture that that realizes these laws in place
[15:16]and and responds to the violence in a way that makes them say we don't want to do this. We don't want to break these laws. Those laws get broken all the time
[15:25]because nobody respects them because the issue is not on par with other issues. Rape and murder are both felonies. Like going by the US judicial systems, you
[15:35]know, rape and murder are both fel acts of felony. But we don't put them in the same we don't weigh them the same in society when we think about a person who
[15:44]has taken a life versus a person who has taken a soul. Right? When you sexually violate a person, you have tried to take their soul. And we should equate equate
[15:56]that in the very same way we do with taking a life. The the beautiful thing is that we are still here breathing. And so we have an opportunity to rebuild that soul, to rebuild that spirit. But
[16:07]the act of taking it away is so heinous that it should be treated as such. So I don't know that it's more laws necessarily that we need, but we need a
[16:17]a a culture. We need society to see just how violent and heinous it is to take away somebody's bodily autonomy. >> Do you think that's missing from the
[16:27]conversation surrounding Epstein that so many souls essentially were taken especially at such a young age? >> Absolutely. We're not digging into the
[16:38]material lives of survivors. And we see it all the time. Every time there's another big case and another big name, there's so much unpacking done about the person who caused harm, but not about
[16:48]the actual harm to the people or the people who experienced the harm. And I think and we don't talk I don't know that I've seen many articles who have named this child sexual abuse, right? or
[16:59]or have talked about the the epidemic of of child sexual abuse or child sexual violence in this country or trafficking or you know exploitation like there are
[17:11]major movements happening around these issues in the country that should be connected to this conversation and part of it can start with just really digging
[17:20]into the material lives of what of these women and what they experienced. I mean, my god, we know about Virginia, right? And and what she went through probably feeling like she was screaming in a well
[17:31]for most of her life because she was trying to keep this issue at the forefront. And you know, like there there are so many cases like that. So many women, men, other you know, other
[17:42]folks who lives have been completely destroyed by this type of violence and yet our focus doesn't really land on
[17:51]them, not in a real material way. And I think that is absolutely missing from this conversation. Right? What is there a conversation happening in high schools around the country? Most of these girls
[18:02]were high school students. This should be something that is impacting the curriculum of every high school in this country to talk about how does this happen? Particularly in communities that
[18:13]are more vulnerable, right? So in vulnerable communities, there should be a movement, a a move to change the curriculums and to have community
[18:24]centers, children, youth programs. You know, everybody should be having the conversation about keeping our children safe from another Epstein who may not be again a multi-millionaire with an
[18:34]island, but he could be the guy in the community who owns the pizza shop and has way more money than everybody else, right? So yeah, there's there's a lot that we need
[18:44]to recalibrate. I am grateful for the anger though. I'm grateful for the outrage and I'm grateful for every time we have a spotlight to to shine on this issue. You know, I hate that we have the
[18:55]issue still, but the opportunity to keep elevating the conversation, I'm grateful for that. My last question to you is I know that as the investigation into Epstein
[19:06]continues, at least the House Oversight Committee is continuing that the people are still looking through all of the millions of documents released by the
[19:16]DOJ. What do you want and from all of that and how do you want that to be victim and survivor focused? Would that be bringing people to justice? What does
[19:26]that look like for you? >> Yeah, I follow the leadership of the survivors. I really just want for them what they want for themselves. Um, but I will say I think for the country we do
[19:37]need to have this exposed. We need to have but but exposed not in the way that we've seen it so far alongside a conversation about how we got here. And
[19:48]the last thing I'll say that I would love to see is us to reframe this whole issue as a solvable issue. Right? There
[19:57]are multiple time multiple um points in the lifespan of Jeffrey Epstein and and Gelain Maxwell and what they did that a that an intervention could have stopped
[20:09]them, right? And and various types of interventions could have stopped them. And I think that's an example of a small example, but it's an example of how this
[20:19]o overall issue does have solutions, but we have to have the resources to scale the solutions that exist and to keep examining and looking for more and more solutions, right? Not just naming the
[20:30]problem. We know what the problem is. We see it. We see how it's spread. Naming it doesn't solve it, but solutions exist. And this is a solvable issue. And so I would love for us to reframe that
[20:41]so we don't have a whole another generation of young people growing up thinking, well, this is an inevit inevitability, right? This is just life. That's how life works. The best we can
[20:51]do is keep our girls safe. The best we can ask for our boys is to be, you know, have bystander intervention. We can do so much more than that. >> Toronto Burke, thank you so much for the
[21:03]conversation. I really appreciate it. You are welcome back anytime. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. I really appreciate it.