[0:00]The negative headlines around Prince Andrew continue. This time they're coming from the postumous memoir by Virginia Jafrey which is hitting bookshops right now. We will discuss
[0:10]what is in the book on this episode of the BBC's Daily News podcast newscast. And just a warning that we will be discussing some distressing content and that Prince Andrew denies all the
[0:21]allegations against him. Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio and over the last few episodes of newscast, we've seen the mounting
[0:31]negative headlines about Prince Andrew. On Friday night, it was that statement from him saying he was going to relinquish nearly all his royal titles, although crucially not the prince bit of
[0:42]his royal title. Then over the weekend there were those reports that in 2011 when that old photo from 2001 surfaced of him with Virginia Jafrey. He spoke to
[0:53]his police protection officer to get him to look into her background and what was going on. And now today on Monday the 20th of October earlier than planned
[1:05]Virginia Jafrey's postumous autobiography has hit the bookshelves. So, looks like we'll be spending another episode of newscast trying to work out what's going on here
[1:16]and look at the implications for Prince Andrew and for the royal family and also to hear a bit more of Virginia Dupre's story in her own words. So, let's do that now because here in the newscast
[1:26]studio with me is our senior royal correspondent Daniela Ralph. Hello Daniela. >> Hello Adam. >> Busy day for you. >> Very much so. Busy weekend >> and also welcome back Victoria Darbasher from News Night. Hello. >> Hi Adam. How are you?
[1:37]>> Good thanks. This we're weirdly feels sort of like we're about to do book group because you've got Virginia Jafrey's book there. I have. >> And Victoria, just explain where we are kind of in the timeline of your day today.
[1:47]>> Okay. So, it's half six right now and I've been reading this book for the past week. Um, obviously had to keep it under wraps because it's not supposed to be published worldwide until tomorrow. A
[1:58]few books were being sold in London yesterday. So, I knew how absolutely harrowing it was. And the reason that I got it early is because on News Night, we're doing the UK broadcast exclusive
[2:09]with Virginia Du Fray's co-author Amy Wallace. You will know that Virginia Grey took her own life about six months or so ago. Um Amy Wallace is a journalist of many years and yeah, she's
[2:21]going to be talking about how she helped write this book with Virginia Grey and what Virginia Grey wanted to come from it >> and we'll get you to tell us some of the contents of it in a second. Um, and Daniela, there's then this parallel
[2:32]timeline of how the royal family is handling the stuff that's in the book, some of which has been out in the public domain before and also just other things that are accusations about and information about Prince Andrew.
[2:43]>> Yeah. I think for the royal family, what they were hoping was that on Friday night when they issued that statement from Prince Andrew, saying that he was relinquishing voluntarily his honors and titles, that that would somehow dial
[2:54]down the situation in terms of uh this whole episode around Prince Andrew and the scandal and the problem. It's done the absolute opposite. It's turned the heat up and they are now in a situation where they're trying to work out how to cool it down
[3:05]>> because there's a few things have happened that are unrelated to the book. So there's, for example, the reports in the newspapers over the weekend that Prince Andrew asked his royal protection
[3:15]officer, so a publicly paid protection officer to look into Virginia Jafrey >> way way back when this first emerged. >> Yeah. I mean, what's happening is every day there's just kind of something else
[3:26]is what it feels like. Now, the story yesterday about Prince Andrew emailing uh his press officer and telling him that he'd asked his protection officer to try and get some information, effectively get some dirt on Virginia Du
[3:37]Fray was the sort of tone of the email. Um that that that came from the batch of documents that's in the US Congress that one of the committees is looking at there. But then you've had the book,
[3:47]you've had uh the announcement that he was relinquishing his title. you've just had all these little bits that have kind of put together to create a bit of a crisis for the palace at the moment in terms of what they're doing. We've had this really interesting situation today
[3:58]actually where the king has been in Manchester >> um visiting uh the site of the synagogue attack a couple of weeks ago and people involved there and the emergency services and at the end of the engagement Buckingham Palace issued an
[4:10]official statement about the visit which is really unusual because they normally just let the pictures do the talking really. kind of happened and you spoke to the king or who were there, but they don't usually kind of tell us what it
[4:22]was like. And I mean, I'll read you the statement. It's quite saying Bucking Palace spokesperson said, "This is the king continuing with duty and service in his long-standing mission to bring communities together, particularly in
[4:33]times of challenge." And he hopes very much that the focus will be on the community impacted by this heinous crime rather than any other matters. Any other matters means Prince Andrew, no question
[4:44]about it. So they are really trying to to shift the emphasis here but it's just really difficult for them. >> I mean that's a classic example of royal speak isn't it of trying to say something without saying something. >> Well exactly the fact that they're saying anything is the something.
[4:55]>> Yeah. And actually when it first came in we were all sort of picking it apart sort of does it does that mean that? But actually we we ask for some clarity and they do mean they want the focus to be on their public work and not on the family problems. But good luck with
[5:06]that. That's not happening. >> Also there's some big stuff that the king's doing this week in addition to his visit today. >> Yeah. He's off uh on Wednesday night to Italy. He's going on a state visit to the Vatican. He's going to become the
[5:17]first monarch in 500 years to pray publicly with a pope um since the reformation. It is a very powerful impactful visit for the king. You know, the palace are desperate that it does
[5:28]not get overshadowed by the Prince Andrew problem, but I think perhaps not overshadowed, but it will be in the mix still by Thursday, I'm sure of it. >> So, Vic, um the book um what's it
[5:38]called, by the way? It's called Nobody's Girl and it has a picture of Virginia Guprey as a teenager on the front, a memoir of surviving abuse and fighting
[5:48]for justice. And it's about 400 pages long. And much of it we knew or we've read about in the past 10, 11, 15 years
[5:59]or so. But what it does devastatingly is bring it all together. And it talks about her childhood, allegations of
[6:07]abuse there, and how she ended up in the orbit of Epstein and Maxwell for a period of two years, and the absolute
[6:16]cruelty that they subjected her to. And I mean sexual abuse. I mean degrading treatment. I mean humiliating her and
[6:28]other young girls that they literally prayed on. You know, they would say, "Oh, what are your dreams? What do you want to do? Modeling or acting? We can
[6:37]help you. Cuz they're obviously wellspoken, rich, powerful people who live in huge houses. And often these girls were well, Virginia herself was working at Mara Lago. She was folding
[6:49]the towels. Her dad worked there as a maintenance guy. Um, so yeah, it puts it all together. And if Do you want me to read it? >> Please do. Yeah, let's hear her words.
[6:59]>> So these are Virginia's words. I don't know exactly when I had sex with Prince Andrew for the third time, but I do know the location, Little St. Jeff's.
[7:10]That's Epstein's private island. I also know that it was not just the two of us this time. It was an orgy. I was around 18, I said in a sworn declaration back in 2015.
[7:22]Epstein, Andy, and approximately eight other young girls and I had sex together. The other girls all seemed and appeared to be under the age of 18 and didn't really speak English. Epstein
[7:33]laughed about how they couldn't really communicate, saying they are the easiest girls to get along with. And then just a few pages later, just when I thought things couldn't get worse for me, they
[7:44]did. Epstein trafficked me to a man who raped me more savagely than anyone had before. We were on Epstein's island when I was ordered to take this man to a cabana. Immediately immediately it was
[7:56]clear that this man who whom I've taken pains to describe in legal filings only as a former minister wasn't interested in caresses. He wanted violence. He
[8:06]repeatedly choked me until I lost consciousness and took pleasure in seeing me in fear for my life. And these are accounts and there are so
[8:17]many of these that are these are what Virginia says she was put through. grotesque, painful, horrific
[8:26]sexual abuse over many, many months. >> I mean, it's very difficult to hear um and I'm sure it's very difficult to read over hundreds and hundreds of pages. But actually, weirdly, the thing that jumps out from those sections there is she
[8:38]feels the need to attribute the the evidence. She said, "I've said this in core. I've said this in legal documents." In other words, you've got to believe me. >> Yes. And also Amy Wallace, who is the
[8:50]co-author, has done her factchecking. She's written these kind of books before, helped other people. Not only has she done her own factchecking, corroborating, talking to Virginia's
[9:01]parents, friends, other survivors of Epstein and Maxwell, they also employed a professional fact checker, too, because you know there is there is
[9:13]Virginia wanted people to have a factually accurate account so people couldn't say I don't believe you. Also, there's a bit I was reading because some of our other colleagues have been writing this up today as well about
[9:24]where um she was rushed to hospital and she doesn't know what actually it might have been that she had a miscarriage or not and she doesn't she didn't know.
[9:34]>> So, this was around the age of about 18. She she'd already been being abused by Epstein and others of his associates. Uh she was in severe pain. She was taken to hospital.
[9:45]uh she thi she doesn't know exactly what happened but she thinks certainly the way she puts it in this book that she suffered an ectopic pregnancy and was
[9:55]and was told as a teenager that she may never have children. Now she did go on to have three children and she absolutely adored her children and you
[10:04]know had a very very happy family life with those kids. Um Daniela, Prince Andrew denies all these allegations against him as he has done for many, many years. Um what is
[10:16]interesting is that so much of this stuff has been out there already and presumably lots of people in the in the royal family feel that they they've done what they needed to do. Like him
[10:26]stepping back from public duties. I remember at the time that seemed like already the nuclear option, but they're having to find other options in addition to that as more of this stuff comes out, even if it might be stuff we've sort of
[10:38]heard before. Yeah, I think we're in a situation now where the question is is is does the punishment feel big enough? Is that going to subdue the sort of public clamor for something to be done
[10:49]about Prince Andrew? And I think I suppose in the royal family you have got now this sort of slight mess of a situation where there there are family loyalties. Now I think they are quite shredded around Prince Andrew to to be
[11:00]honest. Um I think things were very different. Um, if you go back to when he lost his uh uh title as a working royal, you know, the queen was still alive. That was in 2019. >> Yeah. In 2019,
[11:12]>> a mother's love is very strong, isn't it? That bond was there. And with different times then we're now in a situation where there isn't that bond between his older brother, the king. There definitely isn't that bond between
[11:24]him and his nephew, Prince William. And the mood is different. But I still even with that in the background on Friday night it was still thought best that Prince Andrew should lead on the statement. They were his word. This is
[11:35]how he wanted it presented. Now be under no illusions. This is what the king wanted and what Prince William wanted. Not not really what Prince Andrew wanted. But he was allowed the freedom to present it in his own way. I mean
[11:47]that statement on Friday night, it wasn't filled with mentioning of victims. There was no obvious contrition in it. There wasn't an apology. It was pretty workmanlike and again denied denied the allegations. But I think
[11:58]there is a little bit element of being stuck in the royal family in terms of what more do we do here. There is this should we take his prince title of him off him? >> That's what that's the forgive me the
[12:09]the brother of Virginia Gre was on news on Friday night saying actually we'd call on the king to remove the prince from Prince Andrew. >> Yeah. I think maybe in in sort of a public perspective that is a much more
[12:20]powerful punishment than losing the order of the garter or stop being the Duke of York. To lose the title, it was your birthright effectively by being the son of a monarch. That would seem like a very powerful thing to do.
[12:31]>> Is it possible to take away the title of prince? It sounds like it's a sort of as you said the word birthright, it just it automatically happens when you're the child of a monarch, doesn't it? >> Yeah, but you can also take it away if you're the you know brother of a
[12:43]monarch. Um you know the king could issue a letters patent. It's quite it's quite a complex parliamentary procedure in many ways and actually Buckingham Palace are really keen that not a
[12:52]nanocond of Prince the Prince Andrew problem is taken up with parliamentary time but would it take up much time that's the question >> and there are parliamentarians who are absolutely keen that they do want this
[13:04]to take up some parliamentary time because because they are frankly disgusted particularly after that email emerged a week ago from Prince Andrew to Epstein in February 2011 11 where he
[13:16]talked about we'll play some more soon and we're in this together when he told Newsight in 20 in told Newsight in that interview that he'd severed all contact with Epstein a year before. >> Yeah. >> And and that was what Buckingham Palace
[13:27]called the tipping point for them in terms of uh making that announcement on Friday night that that that moment realizing there might be discrepancies in the story that for them they just felt they've called it a tipping point
[13:39]and something had to shift. And it's interesting looking at this idea of the letters patent which is this this almost like royal proclamation. It just sounds so oldfashioned. I mean royal family shock horror oldfashioned um uh that
[13:50]they would be issued to strip him of his of his title of prince. And you look you look on the House of Commons library and they go through the whole rigma roll of how these things are issued and it says quite often they're issued on
[14:01]ministerial advice. So a democratically elected politician advises the monarch to issue one of these things which then makes you question the line from all the government ministers today on the airwaves when they say oh it's not for
[14:12]politicians it's not for parliament these are issues for the royal family. Well no if the actual thing that would trigger the removal of the prince title can be done on the advice of ministers. Well then there is historic precedent for parliament and politicians
[14:24]intervening here. >> Yeah. If if the if the government wanted to intervene they absolutely could. Um Ed Milliband was doing the rounds yesterday and he told us that this is a
[14:34]matter you know for the royal family. >> I'm just going back to the book um I mean how much stuff about Prince Andrew does does she actually put in there? I mean how much of the book is about him claims about him?
[14:45]>> Uh so there are the accounts of what of the sexual abuse she said she suffered at his hands. Those three episodes are
[14:54]put together. Then there are the subsequent things that have happened in the news since the photograph the uh the news night interview the financial
[15:05]settlement. She doesn't tell us in the book that what what the the figure is because it was confidential. It was reported it was 12 million. She puts in the the statement that Prince Andrew
[15:16]gave at the time when he paid that financial settlement where he did talk about the fact that he would be helping in the fight against the evils of sex trafficking and he did talk about supporting victims and she asks at the
[15:28]end of this book has he done that? He pledged to in that statement. Has he ever done that? >> Also are the questions like where are the videotapes the FBI sees from Epstein's houses? Where where actually
[15:39]are they? You know, there are still so many unanswered questions. And she is complimentary about Donald Trump in part because when he was campaigning to become president, he said he would
[15:50]release the Epstein files, which Virginia Duay absolutely wants, >> wanted, I should say, because she wants somebody, not just Gain Maxwell,
[16:02]somebody who abused her and others to be brought to justice. And it's worth reminding ourselves about the the settlement that Prince Andrew reached with Virginia Jafrey when she was alive
[16:12]in 2022. I mean, he didn't acknowledge any guilt. That was just uh almost like a transaction between the two of them mediated through through lawyers and a
[16:21]court. You you must wonder if he thought at that point that would close all this down because lots of those settlements involve you signing a thing saying, "I'll never talk about this."
[16:31]>> Yeah, 100%. Are we surprised that that this book even exists? >> Well, >> well, sorry, just to just to add. >> So, in the book, she says for a year she agreed not to talk about any of the
[16:43]allegations, which was the platinum year. That's right. >> So, for a year, she was quiet. But clearly, had there been any arrangement whereby she could never discuss this, I mean, that would have been an outrage.
[16:54]You know, I don't think there would have been much sympathy if that had emerged. >> Yeah. uh at all for >> I I think there is a a question through all of this about Prince Andrew's judgment on some of the smaller matters as well as a big one. I think he thought
[17:06]the Newsight interview would perhaps shut things down or no it didn't. I think he thought perhaps a settlement uh would shut things down. Oh no, it hasn't. I think he thought on Friday night I'm going to issue the statement to say I've given up my honors and
[17:17]titles and that will cool things off. No, it hasn't. So, you know, he he has a history of perhaps not reading the room correctly. And going back to where we started, this information is coming from lots of places other than this book
[17:29]that's coming out this week because there's just court documents by the thousand and American congressional committees looking into it. I'm just thinking about all the sources we've of we've had of news stories related to
[17:41]this. There's a just huge treasure trove presumably of further things that could come out for the rest of time. >> Well, the Sorry, Danielle. No, go on. >> Yeah. I was well I mean this is the
[17:51]absolute massive problem for the royal family isn't it and for Buckingham Palace. What else is out there? What don't we know? Uh what could emerge? Where's it coming from? Who's saying it? I mean they just don't really know
[18:03]what's ahead and that is a really nervous position to be in for the royal household. >> The oversight the House of Representatives oversight committee which earlier this year released stuff about Mandlesson and Epstein's
[18:14]friendship. Yeah. >> The birthday book. Exactly. Um >> they have obviously released that stuff. There's there's there's pressure from Democrats and Republicans to release the whole Epstein files. There's government
[18:25]shutdown at the moment. So, will that happen when they're back, you know, up and running again? And the Mail on Sunday and the Sun are getting leaks from somewhere
[18:35]>> about various emails that have been sent between uh Epstein and Prince Andrew and other people. >> But also back to the Prince Andrew's
[18:44]judgment. I mean, okay, in theory, he disappeared from public life and gave up his patronages, then gave up the title, but actually, if you look at all the the
[18:54]footage of other royal events like funerals and things, he's he's very prominent in some of them. Okay, he's not in the balcony when there's a big official thing and the king gets to decide who stands next to him, but
[19:06]actually when it's a family thing, he doesn't he doesn't stand at the back or like like wear a fake beard. Like, it's very prominent. I mean, this to me is unquestionably one of has been one of the problems over the years. On the rare
[19:17]occasions when he has been let out, he hasn't really been in the shadows of the royal events he has attended. We saw most recently um the Duchess of Kent's
[19:28]funeral at Westminster Cathedral where if you watch the pictures, you know, you see him sort of shuffling to try and be front and center with the king and with Prince William. Prince William's incredibly stonyfaced at any attempts by
[19:39]his uncle to make conversation with him. And actually I was at Sandringham a couple of years ago on Christmas Day and it was the first time Sarah Ferguson had been back there for like 30 years in terms of being publicly part of a royal
[19:50]family Christmas and when they leave the church in Sandringham St. Mary Magdalene there's there's a bit of sort of collecting flowers from the royal family and they walk down a pathway and chat to a few of the members of the public that have come out to see them on on
[20:01]Christmas morning and everyone did that but uh uh Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson stayed for absolutely ages uh talking to everyone. And it was sort of
[20:10]like their moment in the limelight a little bit and the whole I mean the whole of the royal family must have been sort of sitting around the lunch table on Christmas day. They were still there and in the end the police had to usher them away so they could lock the gates
[20:21]and clear clear everybody away. He he just hasn't gone quietly which is I think really what they would like him to have done. Yes, he can come to some events where they felt there was a personal connection like the coronation,
[20:32]the funeral. I mean, even on the Thanksgiving service for the Duke of Edinburgh in 2022, where out of nowhere he suddenly walked the Queen into Westminster Abby himself, none of the royal family apparently knew that was
[20:42]going to happen. So, he, you know, he as much a surprise to them as us at that point. Okay. Um, also there's lots of speculation now about his his property, about where he lives on on the royal
[20:53]estate in Windsor. What can you tell us about about that? >> Yeah, he lives in a lot of speculation. >> Yeah, he lives in Royal Lodge. Um it's pretty it's not a lodge, it's a mansion, you know, in Windsor Great Park in the
[21:04]grounds of Windsor Castle. How is he paying for it? He the king no longer supports him in the payment of that. He is paying for it privately for the upkeep. He has a lease with a crown estate that has legally binding until
[21:16]2078 I think it is that can't be broken apparently. >> I read today that the rent per year for it is about £240,000. They always say
[21:28]>> the the rent is to his own family. >> Yeah. Well, to the crown estate, however you want. >> Also, it is to the That's what I wasn't sure because with the royal family, you always have to work out, are they going and staying in a house that they own
[21:39]because they're a very wealthy family in their own right? Are they going to stay in a property that sort of >> belongs to the monarchy? Yeah. Sort of owned by the nation by the monarchy. And it's all a bit difficult to some
[21:50]politicians are asking where does his income come from? >> Where does it come from? It's really and we haven't got to the bottom of that. It's a very very difficult thing to get to the bottom. >> But I suppose one of the ironies of him stepping back from public life and
[22:00]giving up all his titles is a lot of this is him being a private citizen. So he's therefore got a right to privacy because he's actually not a >> in a lot of this he's not being a member
[22:11]of the royal family. He's being a guy called Andrew Windsor. >> Yes. But I suppose it it there is a problem with the privilege that that seems to create or the picture of privilege that that creates and people want to understand better how that is
[22:22]possible for him to live like that. Um, so Vic, just tell us what's going to happen next. So we're it's 10 to 7. >> You're going to dash out of here. >> Yes. I'm uh pre-recording the interview
[22:33]with Amy Wallace in about 45 minutes or so, which people can I don't know when they're going to listen to newscast, but you can see it on Newsight Tonight. It's a UK broadcast exclusive or obviously
[22:44]catch up on Player. >> Yeah. And what I mean, how will you be approaching that interview with her? It's kind of was kind of like the big picture thing. Well, I'm I'm I'm going to ask her
[22:55]for for some of the testimony from this book. Um how she corroborated some of these uh accounts, what Virginia Grey wanted by writing this book, what she thought it what she hoped it would
[23:07]achieve, and what she thinks Donald Trump should do now regarding the Epstein files and what she thinks Prince Andrew should do now. >> Um and Daniela, what will you be keeping
[23:18]an eye on in the next kind of 48 hours? We talked about the big trip to >> our Victoria's interview with the news tonight. I mean, um I think the big thing will be the king's visit to Italy. I mean, that is the the big moment this
[23:30]week in terms of the royal family and really how this is playing by Thursday. Will the king get a clear run on that moment with the pope, which is what he wanted, a moment of personal
[23:40]significance to him, we're told, or will this still be part of that story? >> And then I'm just thinking, where where does the political pressure mount? because okay the people we've been
[23:49]hearing from today are people like Rachel Mascll who the former Labour MP in York who lost the whip um the SNP so
[24:00]sort of people you might expect to be applying pressure to the government but sort of people that the government can resist the pressure from and I'm just not sure where >> it depends what else happens I mean you
[24:11]know >> another email emerges you just don't know you just and then and then all the stuff that's going to come out in the end from that oversight committee in the US.
[24:22]>> Yeah. And actually, do Labor MPs Yeah. lots of whom come from quite a Republican tradition, but might not be that Republican in their behavior now that they're MPs, actually which which
[24:32]side of the Labour Party character emerges over the next few days and potentially applies pressure to the prime minister. Daniela, thank you. >> Thanks, Adam. And >> Victoria, I hope you have a good interview.
[24:43]>> Thank you. Thank you.