[0:00]from a detective's interviews with alleged victims to a former president allegedly demanding a publication to not report on Jeffrey Epstein new documents released in the Epstein Saga are
[0:10]continuing the conversation we bring on former CIA and FBI agent Tracy Walder to make sense of what we've learned in these document dumps so far that named
[0:20]some very high-profile individuals welcome to sidebar presented by law and crime I'm Jesse Weber okay so last last night we got
[0:31]another batch of documents that were unsealed and released in the Jeffrey Epstein Saga I'm talking about now over 900 pages of materials New York judge Loretta presca ordered the release of
[0:42]all these documents since they're part of court filings in a defamation case that was filed by alleged Epstein victim Virginia jefra against Epstein accomplice galain Maxwell Epstein
[0:53]remember was the finance year who died in his jail cell awaiting trial on sex trafficking charges this is off after having already pled guilty to State charges of soliciting and procuring a
[1:03]minor for prostitution over 10 years earlier Maxwell was convicted of sex trafficking charges and sentenced to 20 years behind bars by the way she's currently sitting in a Florida prison
[1:14]but at one point in time Virginia Roberts uh who is now known as Virginia Dre freay she filed a defamation lawsuit against Maxwell in 2015 the case ended
[1:24]up being settled but media Outlets uh particularly the Miami Herald really wanted to know what these documents were what were these filings whose names were in these so they tried to get all of
[1:35]these filings released judge Loretta PRCA agreed at the end of December to release these documents with almost every JN and Jane Doe named as their
[1:45]real identity now some of these names weren't that surprising because the people either already revealed themselves in interviews they put out statements they've photographed with
[1:54]Epstein and Maxwell now it's very important to note that not everyone named in these documents is accused or or guilty of Nefarious activity you know
[2:04]say the Epstein list oh my goodness it's not what you think it is a lot of this is just names that are referenced you know you could have former employees you could have victims you could have Associates you could have just
[2:14]celebrities that were mentioned you know Leonardo Di caprio's name was mentioned because one of the alleged victims was asked if she ever met him that's it there's nothing more nefarious about that and I just want to be clear about that when we talk about the release of
[2:25]all these documents we have to put everything in context now there are are a lot of high-profile names and important people and they're very interesting tidbits as well so I want to talk about all this with former CIA and
[2:37]FBI agent Tracy Walder who is the author of the unexpected spy and a news Nation uh National Security contributor uh Tracy so good to see you um you have
[2:47]been following this as much as I have so I'm going to ask you just generally speaking what are your thoughts on the last couple of days of release of all of these
[2:57]documents well thank you so much for having me Jesse you know my thoughts are exactly what you had mentioned before obviously this isn't some little black book right of his his client hit list if
[3:08]you will but and I know I realize a lot of people don't have time to do this but I I read through the second um release in full by the way we a lot of people
[3:20]don't know this but uh you have super Superman reading speed you're just like this all the time the whole night I read through it in full after I put my daughter to bed last night and
[3:31]what I found to be interesting is just as you said some of these names are very much innocuous like I know David Copperfield the famous magician um is on there and he was in there really just
[3:41]because he performed a magic show um for you know he you know what well let's save him because he made an interesting comment we'll talk we'll talk about him a minute age with you he did or
[3:51]allegedly made a comment yeah yes but I would argue from the most recent the deposition list the list of people that were to be deposed and why they were to
[4:01]be deposed in my opinion is probably one of the more revealing looks if that makes any sense into this and really Bill Richardson is one that sticks out
[4:13]so so so let's talk about that first one of the documents that was released yesterday um it's a standard filing in a litigation um you identify individuals
[4:23]who are likely to have evidence likely to have information that's relevant to your case and this was a filing from 2016 uh from galain Maxwell listing over
[4:33]70 people that she believed had information that could help her case you know disprove uh Virginia jra's uh defamation claims um and so just to give you an idea about what they say for
[4:45]example there was a woman named Evelyn bullette Miss bouette may have knowledge concerning plaintiff's false claims against defendant now I have to tell you Tracy I didn't find it that particularly
[4:56]interesting because we don't know what that information was we don't know who these people what what they knew about Virginia je or what they knew about gain Maxwell or their connection to Epstein it was just a list
[5:08]of people that might have information and also the second half of it was uh you know a list of Articles and legal filings that might have information to help Maxwell's case but you thought it was more important than that not for
[5:19]everyone to your to your point right some of them I have absolutely no idea right what what they were being deposed for or it's very innocuous information Ju Just as you said but when I looked at
[5:30]the two uh Richardson and fakai uh Fredick fakai you know Richardson obviously was in the government was the governor of New Mexico served in the
[5:39]cabinet as well um and it specifically said that what the information they wanted from him what really peaked my interest was obviously knowledge of
[5:49]Epstein's activities but in particular that sentence said his knowledge of Epstein's relationships with underage kids and that
[6:00]really stuck out to me that I think is noteworthy and Troublesome what he was being deposed for well what we're going to do is go through some of these
[6:11]high-profile names break them down who they are what their relation are in these documents let's start with Bill Richard so je fre named the late New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson as one
[6:20]of the people she gave a massage to she couldn't remember certain details of the dates about when she was asked to do it she did say that she was sent to New Mexico
[6:29]now another alleged victim here Joanna scherg she testified that Maxwell went to dinner with Mr Richardson when scherg was visiting the ranch uh Richardson
[6:41]died in September of last year he denied all the claims what do you make of what we've learned a a little bit more about him or or maybe we didn't learn that much about him more in these documents
[6:52]you know I'm not sure that we learned a ton more about him than what we already knew I think it was well known and assumed from as you mentioned before information that was already out there
[7:03]as you said he recently passed away and he has you know denied these claims against him I think the problem is though is these claims keep coming up
[7:13]and I am concerned and I would want to know if there was ever an investigation conducted um into Richardson and whether or not he was procuring uh illegal
[7:24]Services quite frankly of Jeffrey Epstein and so I think what's not in there is what's important to me as an investigator I would want to know if there was ever an investigation done
[7:35]into him if these allegations were made and let's be clear this is also the beginning set of documents more documents are going to be released it may not have everything I mean there's going to be aspects of the Jeffrey
[7:47]Epstein Saga that might not have been a part of this litigation between Virginia JRA and glain Maxwell but we will wait and see this is going to happen on a rolling basis now I want to actually go
[7:57]to somebody that you uh tweeted about xed about I still don't know what the right thing is but um it's former FBI director Lewis free am I saying his last
[8:07]name correctly free Louie Louie free Louis free okay and as somebody who worked for the FBI I thought this was really interesting because he's mentioned in a 2016 filing from galain
[8:18]Maxwell where she as you said identified people that may have information uh that could help her case it's a required disclosure uh he was the head of the FBI
[8:27]from 1993 to June 20 01 uh during former President Bill Clinton's term and it says that he may have knowledge concerning travel of Bill Clinton now
[8:38]seems to me probably glain Maxwell wanted to show Clinton never visited Epstein's island or that he was only on Epstein's plane with Secret Service what do you make of that so the interesting
[8:49]thing is is I'm actually more interested in Mr Free's activities after he worked at the FBI because really that's what this is questioning um after he worked
[8:59]at the FBI I think it's well known throughout the community that he did some controversial things and aligned himself with some controversial individuals and one of those things was that he worked at the law firm and
[9:10]defended Alan dtz in some of the allegations against him and so look we have to remember these took place after
[9:20]his time as the FBI director right so I just want to make that really clear also he is absolutely not being accused of you know taking in any sex trafficking
[9:31]or anything like that um but the thing that I am concerned about is that this is someone who would have had intimate knowledge I guess um of the government
[9:41]of the legal system of the judicial apparatus here in this this country um and I think it's more than just in terms of my reading uh what he knew about
[9:52]Clinton's travels it also is um the discussions that he had with dtz as well in defending in him um in the cases those are sort of what's being looked at
[10:03]and why his name appeared and so that's why that was interesting to me yeah I agree with you I but for Maxwell's purposes she wanted to you know get information from him to talk about where
[10:14]Bill Clinton was and let's actually talk about Bill Clinton because the former president uh his name appears in these documents uh he hasn't been accused of any wrongdoing but as I said his name
[10:24]appears in the filings and he has always maintained that he had a a relationship with Epstein you know in the 9s and the early 2000s flew on his private jet for philanthropic work for the Clinton
[10:35]Foundation but then he cut ties with him and denies all wrongdoing uh and denies all knowledge and Clinton's representative said that uh he never visited little St James Island Epstein's
[10:47]Island but one of the more notable references in the documents concerns alleged victim jna stroberg who I mentioned um because she claims that EP
[10:56]Epstein had said at one point to her Clinton liked them young referring to young girls um now it's important to know that scherg never met uh Clinton or
[11:07]saw him uh on the island but I thought that was interesting what was your take on that I do think that's interesting obviously it is someone's account right I she never met him and never saw him on
[11:18]the island I also think we want to be fair to both parties here Clinton's name was in there and also Mara Lago was in there a lot um and so yeah and so I
[11:27]think both Things Are concerning to me the way I see it and maybe I shouldn't be so cut and dried but this is the way I see it um if you associated with
[11:37]upstein prior to his sex crimes conviction in 2008 um I can understand that maybe not knowing what his activities were not knowing what he was
[11:48]doing not knowing what he was a part of but if you made a decision after 2008 to associate with him to ride the Lolita Express I guess that was the nickname
[11:58]for for it to visit his Island his plane yeah right to visit his Island to partake in his you know philanthropic donations after he had been convicted of
[12:09]that and it was well known um that he was that's where I take a little bit of issue in terms of former presidents and administ members of the administration associating with him now there were
[12:20]other mentions of Bill Clinton uh that were brought up in reference to whether jra's lawyers would be allowed to depose him in the defamation suit the judge denied it there's also this email from
[12:30]January 2015 where glain Maxwell emails her agent after he had called je FR a liar uh on Maxwell's behalf and she wrote I've already suffered such a terrible and painful loss over the last
[12:42]few days that I can't even see what life after press will even look like statements that don't address all just lead to more questions why is what is my relationship to Clinton you know again
[12:54]you can make of that what it is but this is what I really thought was interesting and this came out of yesterday's document dump Vanity Fair so according to this latest round of documents
[13:05]Virginia je fre claimed that former President Bill Clinton stormed into the offices at Vanity Fair and said that the magazine couldn't publish a story about Jeffy Epstein the claim was made in a
[13:16]May 2011 email concerning an interview to promote a book that jefra was writing and she said Clinton walked into Vanity Fair and threatened them not to write sex trafficking articles about his good
[13:28]friend je meaning Jeffrey Epstein that is a pretty wild claim that's a public figure that would March in and start screaming demands now a spokesperson for the editor of Vanity Fair at the time
[13:37]says quote this categorically did not happen that that was for me a little bit of a bombshell um it was a bombshell however
[13:47]as I mentioned before it's a I guess he said she said she said she said I don't know yeah um I find because I don't want to say that Virginia G FR is not a
[13:58]believable individual what happened to her is horrific and um I I never want to dismiss that however I have a hard time believing that a former president with Secret Service in because let's be
[14:10]honest he would have had have had Secret Service protection would have done something so public um about that I'm not sure that that actually happened but
[14:20]I don't want to be perceived as calling her a liar because I don't think that she is but I do think that some of these claims made recall differently than than what occurred I just yeah I just can't
[14:32]see him doing that I'll tell you I thought it was interesting because it's my understanding correct me if I'm wrong but I understood that there were reports that Epstein himself tried to prevent Vanity Fair from publishing articles
[14:43]about his alleged abuse of these two sisters uh there was this journalist uh Vicky Ward said in a podcast a couple years back that Epstein said quote I have reports here about you your husband I have everything under the sun that was
[14:55]sent to me by people who want to be helpful um I don't know I know if you heard about that but the idea that uh you know Jeffrey Epstein was trying to kill stories now I hear that this allegation that Clinton was trying to
[15:05]kill stories in the same publication just uh little interesting to think about if you want to give your quick take on that I could see Epstein wanting to kill a story I could understand that
[15:16]I I think what happened with Clinton if it happened maybe happened over emo over a phone call I just don't see him physically storming into the office I
[15:27]guess that's it doesn't seem practical I'm thinking from a tactical standpoint of secret service and toe uh coming up there and doing that I just I don't see it talking about law enforcement one of
[15:39]the biggest pieces of new information revealed in this second batch of documents relates to the testimony from Palm Beach Florida detective Joseph rer because he testified about how Epstein
[15:49]recruited girls to give massages in his home and then offered to pay them if they brought over more friends car says that he interviewed more than 30 women most of them were younger than 18 they
[16:00]actually didn't have any massage experience at all in fact one of the victims whose name is still redacted said that she was 16 or 17 had no massage knowledge she had had no idea
[16:11]that her encounter with Jeffrey Epstein would involve sexual activity she says the first time that she met him Epstein just took off his her her clothes without her consent um and detective rer
[16:22]says that every victim was asked to bring their friends to Epstein's home some did some didn't um that was interesting hearing from the detective it was sad hearing from the
[16:33]detective especially when um she she goes into more about why certain individuals were targeted you know they were people that didn't have close ties with their families um and I found that
[16:45]to be incredibly sad and Incredibly vindictive and Incredibly premeditated quite frankly um on Epstein's part that um and I I do want to make a point too
[16:55]there's redactions in uh some of these do documents I think that's for two reasons I think first of it first of all they were minors at the time uh when they were giving statements and so
[17:06]that's why some of them are redacted and I also do think some may be you know currently under investigation so I think those might be the two reasons but it was really really sad um and it was
[17:18]really interesting to see how purposeful Epstein and Maxwell quite frankly were in recruiting people because it wasn't
[17:27]just about young pretty girls they were purposely looking for girls who maybe didn't have an education didn't have resources didn't have close ties to
[17:39]family members and that's really pure evil quite frankly that leads me to somebody you mentioned before David Copperfield because the magician right
[17:49]and there was this allegation that know Copperfield had visited Epstein in the past Miss scherg who I mentioned before one of the alleged victims she testified that she met Copperfield at a dinner at one of Epstein's home she says that he
[18:00]performed some magic tricks but this is really the part that I thought was so fascinating according to her Copperfield makes the statement quote girls were
[18:10]getting paid to find other girls now she says he didn't really go into further any further details including whether the girls were underage but that comment is so chilling considering what we just
[18:21]talked about this recruitment method of not only getting these victims but having these victims as recruiters it's chilling and disgusting where was the
[18:31]hero in any of this situation I guess that's sort of this is going to sound terrible it shows me what a coward Copperfield is and what a lot of these
[18:41]people were if they had knowledge um that miners were being recruited and then asked to recruit their friends what that tells me is that copper field may
[18:52]not have been partaking in what was going on there's no I couldn't find any allegations of that but he knew um it sounds like right in making that statement what was going on but
[19:04]neglected to do anything about it and if you know I'm not saying that you know he had to no one has any moral obligation I just wish someone would
[19:14]have done something yeah and in that vein I mean just about this recruiting jra's ex-boyfriend Anthony figuroa testified in deposition that glain
[19:24]Maxwell have repeatedly asked him to bring underated girls to Epstein's house in Palm Beach um you know we we talked about it as well and let's get into it a little bit more Jean Luke Brunell um who
[19:36]I think is a fascinating character in this as well so he's mentioned several times in the documents um he was this French model Scout who faced allegations of sexual assault that had been going on for decades he was accused of providing
[19:48]Epstein's sex trafficking ring with the young girls and that he also was sexually abused them denied the Alle the accusations I mean there was a specific allegation in the documents that Jane
[19:58]number three was traffic to Brunell the documents also alleged that he would go after these girls from poor countries get them for modeling jobs lure them in
[20:09]he was charged with rape of miners in December of 2020 by French prosecutors he died from an apparent suicide in 2022 um quick take on him it's hard to
[20:18]sometimes put it into words right um because what's so upsetting you know he was charged and I know he recently passed away but the thing is in my opinion one of the things that the
[20:30]document show particularly in regards to Brunell as well is how much people knew about what was going on what he was doing the women that he was providing and again he's focused on women from
[20:42]disenfranchised countries from disenfranchised groups and they were never held accountable and either someone did try
[20:52]to turn them in and no one listened about it or no one or people were too scared um to turn I don't know the answer to that
[21:01]question I don't know what it is but we look at bystanders a lot you know in history and I think there's a lot of bystanders here um in my opinion someone like Jean Luke brenell who this went on
[21:13]with him for quite some time and this wasn't you know an isolated incident like some people on that list this is someone who I think was known for quite
[21:22]over decade um of providing women uh to Epstein and I I'm just surprised that nothing really ever came of it until about 2020 what did you
[21:33]think of Frederick fakai talking about in famous individuals this was a famous hairdresser uh accuser Joanna scherg again testified in 2016 that when she was giving Epstein a massage she heard
[21:45]Epstein on the phone say I I heard him call someone and say maai is in Hawaii can we find some girls for him she was asked what was your reaction to that she said well I was me massaging and I
[21:56]didn't have a reaction I tried to remain reactionless the whole five years well first of all I'm going to take the last part first the fact that she had to remain reactionless the whole five years and just like detach herself
[22:07]from reality right like that was probably the self-preservation mode um that she needed to go into the thing about F fakai excuse me that was interesting to me was
[22:18]that I'm not sure that I fully realized that epine had this wide of a network right and was providing these women or underaged women um allegedly two
[22:29]individuals in different countries in different states I'm not sure I fully understood the scope of that fakai isn't necessarily when I looked at one of the
[22:40]reasons he was being deposed it wasn't about his knowledge of interaction with underage women it was more just about
[22:49]his knowledge of epin himself and so I guess is yeah so my guess is that it was probably related uh to that phone call
[23:00]um but I I'm not sure um so so let's get into now three big names um prince Andrew Donald Trump and Alan dtz we'll start with prince
[23:10]Andrew um one of the most famous of Epstein's eled Associates Prince Andre the Duke of York jefra accused him of being one of the people that she had sex with as a minor he settled a lawsuit with her out of court for reportedly
[23:21]millions of dollars he continues to deny any wrongdoing but miss scherg again now accuses prince Andrew of groping her breast while they were taking a photo with a puppet with a prince Andrew
[23:33]puppet lookalike I talked about this in a previous sidebar and then you have another accuser unidentified who claims that she was told to sleep with prince Andrew during during an orgy uh on the
[23:44]island and a court filing from 2014 alleges that he that this woman was forced to have sex with him uh when she was a minor at least three different
[23:53]places including um Epstein's Island what do you make of that first of all let's the puppet I yeah yeah that was just you know people
[24:04]instead of everybody going to the other a puppet was taken looks like uh prince Andrew in my mind I I really wish you didn't I really wish you didn't because
[24:14]apparently they took the puppet's hand put it on Virginia jra's breast and then he hold SCH Berg's breast I mean it was
[24:23]in insane I I was when I was reading so in the papers the most graphic I would say information most detailed graphic
[24:33]information was about prince Andrew at least that's what I gleaned from sort of that second dump um of papers I don't think I fully understood how involved it
[24:45]was and it sounds to me like this puppet was made especially for him and gain Maxwell kept it sometimes um for him uh
[24:55]for that use and so it just shows how involved um prince Andrew was and I think also a lot of times because of
[25:05]obviously the courage of Miss Fray coming forward right and talking about it we forget that he victimized other women probably allegedly as well and so
[25:15]it was interesting to see the accounts um of the other women and their allegations but then also coupled with the puppet that in my opinion was
[25:25]probably made for the purpose of engaging in this it it was very disturbing uh yeah it was if you want I'll talk about the Stephen Hawking one too before we even get into Donald Trump
[25:36]so Stephen Hawking the you know Acclaim physicist very weird there was an implication that he might have been involved in an orgy it came from an email from Jeffrey Epstein to glain Maxwell where they were basically saying
[25:48]you know should' go after uh jra's Associates try to tell them that none of this is true um and one of the allegations that I didn't know of before was that apparently step Hawking was in
[26:00]an orgy again that seemed to be the only reference I could find if you want to quickly tackle that that was the only reference that I could find as well but I think the interesting thing is no
[26:10]one's name I guess should surprise anyone anymore given what we're seeing in terms of I also think to we as a society have this like interest in deviant behavior and really that's what
[26:22]this is engaging in quite frankly and so I'm I'm guessing that's why it's capturing a lot of people's attention and let's be clear also now about former president Donald Trump um because he's mentioned uh in these documents not
[26:33]accused of any wrongdoing we knew that Trump and Epstein had a relationship back in the 90s Trump previously called him a terrific guy says the two had a falling out but miss scherg says that when she was on Epstein's jet they
[26:44]actually diverted to New Jersey because of bad weather and she claims Epstein said great we'll call up Trump and we'll go to the casino um she said that she was with je on the plane they didn't
[26:54]gamble because je fre was too young um scherg also testified in the documents that she was never asked to give Trump a massage um jeffra testified though when she was 17 you mentioned Mar Lago she
[27:05]was working at Mara Lago before she was recruited to be a massuse for Epstein anything there that's a knus because I don't really see anything there uh I don't necessarily see anything in
[27:15]regards to you know Trump partaking in any of this elicit activity um my concern and I mentioned it before was
[27:23]how much marao appears um in the document and now I understand Trump is not clearly responsible for everything that occurs at Mara Lago of course not
[27:33]um but the fact that je fre was there I think other women also were there too I worry that it was some kind of a
[27:42]coaching ground uh for Epstein uh in regards to finding women um for his Network so I'm less concerned about Trump and like what his specific
[27:52]involvement was it sounds like they were Associates which is on I I don't want to say understandable but I I get it from like a philanthropic point of view same thing with Clinton and some of the other
[28:03]individuals as well um but I am concerned about Mara Lago and how many women came from there and just going now to other
[28:14]high-profile people that je fre has said that she was trafficked to I mean there's Tom pritzer the American billionaire owns height hotels uh his cousin of Illinois governor JB pritzer
[28:25]if you want to talk about that but also I'll mention Alan dtz um because he is as keeps coming up one of somebody we talk about a lot he's prominent lawyer he uh has been mentioned before in
[28:36]connection with je fre and Epstein uh je fre withdrew an allegation against dtz uh in the past but according to these documents a person only identified as Jane do number three who was a minor
[28:48]says that she was forced to have sex with dtz in Florida New York New Mexico US Virgin Islands and private planes she was then instructed to report back to Epstein about what happened uh and the
[28:59]documents also claimed that dtz was an eyewitness to other sexual abuse so if you want to talk about dtz and pritsker I think those are two important names yeah D I'll start with dtz if that's
[29:09]okay yeah Jane Doe number three I felt had the most compelling information or testimony um about dtz obviously and his involvement I think that's where Louis
[29:20]free comes into play right is that you know his firm was was representing him and I have to wonder if that why it also his name also came into play right it's
[29:30]more than just Clinton's travel um in terms of that I mean that is pretty detailed information I know J fry withdrew uh her statements right about
[29:41]dtz but I'm concerned and confused as to why more wasn't done based on Jane Doe number three's testimony in regards to
[29:53]investigating uh this claim because if these women at the time were underage obviously that is a crime and law enforcement needs to investigate that I don't know if it was just never reported
[30:05]uh to law enforcement and only here that's what I don't know and that's what I'm trying to understand um so I about dtz I I I think by far the most
[30:16]compelling information has come from Jane do number three um in regards to pritzer you know I think here's the thing we idolize a lot of these people and assume that
[30:28]uh they don't do anything wrong and I think that's what's very upsetting uh to a lot of people is you see these individuals J schwitz free uh the
[30:39]Clinton moral L right like things that we view as making prominent decisions places in our society and they are not infallible and
[30:50]they may or may not have engaged um in illegal activity there's a lot more names uh we could talk about there's a lot more people we could talk about but uh otherwise we'd be here for the next
[31:02]two hours um but listen this is just the start of it um we mentioned that this is only in the beginning there's going to be more documents but I think we're expecting more than 200 documents with thousands of pages of information to be
[31:13]released over the next several days so we're going to obviously continue the conversation uh Tracy Walder thank you so much thank you for going through all the documents uh look you staying up late doing that but really really
[31:24]appreciate it um you're terrific as always thank you Jesse all right everybody that is all we have for you right now here on sidebar thank you so much for joining us please subscribe on Apple podcast
[31:36]Spotify YouTube wherever you get your podcast I'm Jesse Weber speak to you next
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