[0:00]Joining me now is British historian and author Andrew Lownie, who you can find on Substack and on YouTube's The Lownie Report. Wonderful to have you on the
[0:10]program. Thank you very much for joining us. Um look, let's start with the House of York because you know the House of York better than anyone. Uh of course, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor and Sarah
[0:21]Ferguson. You wrote the book entitled The Rise and Fall of the House of York, which you can purchase online on Amazon. Uh it's the book of the year in both The Times and Financial Times. Has bombshell
[0:33]after bombshell. Um and and fascinating, I mean, how the couple leveraged their royal status for personal financial gain. Uh those humiliating ties to Jeffrey Epstein. And of course, there
[0:45]are those questionable questionable uh business dealings. Um Andrew, have we heard the last of the Yorks or are there more disastrous revelations to come, do you think?
[0:56]>> Oh, there are plenty more uh revelations to come. I think there's a good chance that more Epstein files will be released. Uh I think we've got some of the victims coming forward and I hope some of the legal depositions will be
[1:06]unsealed. But even today, I've just done a piece uh in the Substack about um uh Sarah Ferguson, how she's been getting money from the Middle East and from
[1:17]Argentina. Uh and um and also how Andrew has been traveling. I mean, one assumes he's been sitting in Sandringham rather lonely. But in fact, and this is with
[1:28]the knowledge of the King, he's just come back from the South of France, where I understand he's looking to buy a property. >> Oh, wow. Okay. So, basically, he's back he's self-banished himself. Would we
[1:39]Would we Would we describe it as that from Britain? >> Yes. I mean, I think we we you know, everyone assumes he's under house arrest, but I don't think his life has really changed that much for the worse. Uh he's in a slightly smaller house.
[1:50]He's still He's traveling. He's still doing business. Uh he was accompanied in the South of France by two 40-something attractive woman. So, I don't think either of them are having a really bad
[2:01]time at the moment. And I think the big question is, you know, what is Sarah living Sarah Ferguson been living off? And I'm told that she has been putting aside money from trust
[2:12]funds that she's been accumulating and she's been living off that rather than off Paddy McNally, her old boyfriend. >> Well, that was what I was going to ask you about, of course, because Paddy McNally, he only died a few weeks ago
[2:23]and it was reported that he could have left Sarah Ferguson, who is of course his ex-girlfriend, a sizable chunk of his $1 billion fortune. What is your intel telling you? Will she
[2:34]even get that money? >> No, my sources say that he he had the measure of her and he hasn't left her any money. And I mean,
[2:45]he took care of her in many respects. I mean, she was always staying in one of his properties, but not quite as much as I think she kind of presented. I mean, one of the suggestions is that she's been staying at his home in
[2:56]Verbier for some time. Well, my understanding is she was only there for a week. So, I think that's been rather overplayed and he actually got rather fed up with her
[3:07]kind of sponging off him. >> And and >> So, I'm afraid my sources are saying very, very different things to to what other members of the press have been told. >> And Sir Jessica, and then you mentioned there at the start and you've written about it in your Substack that she is
[3:19]getting money from was it the Middle East and and Argentina? What's going on there? >> Well, I mean, she she inherited her mother's ranch out there. She has friends out there. She used to go out to
[3:31]Argentina quite a lot. And she's very good at manipulating people, getting people basically to to bankroll her. And that's particularly true of the
[3:41]Middle East where she's been operating as indeed her daughters have. But I understand that there's also money coming from from Argentina. >> Wow. Look, it's fascinating. It just There's
[3:53]just something very wrong when you think about it when it comes to the to the Yorks. And and Andrew, there's also been these rumors that it's interesting because we're talking about Sarah Ferguson and money, but there had been
[4:03]rumors that she's so desperate that she could possibly do a tell-all Netflix documentary. I mean, could you shed any light on that? I mean, it doesn't sound
[4:14]like she needs the money based on what we've just been discussing. >> No, I don't think she needs the money, but I think she wants revenge. She wants to to put her side of the story. I mean, ironically, when I actually first
[4:26]approached her when I started the book saying that I would give an opportunity to get her friends to talk to me and to put her side of the story, and she refused. In fact, told her friends not to talk to me.
[4:35]Uh but I think that there, you know, she she feels rather like Andrew that um they've been rather put upon. It's all been rather unfair. She's going to play the victimhood, and I think she will
[4:46]uh want to to get some revenge. And she's certainly been in talks with all sorts of people. In fact, she was very close to a deal when my paperback came out with all the revelations about her affair with P. Diddy, and that rather
[4:58]put a a dampener on those particular negotiations. But um she's always looking to the main chance and for the quick buck. Uh and there are plenty of people who
[5:09]will do a deal with her. Uh and um one of the the pressures on her was what would happen to her daughters. Would, you know, they She was very keen that they should remain within
[5:19]the royal family, retain their titles, uh continue to have free accommodation in royal palaces. They they do no royal duties. Uh and that was always what was kind of uh
[5:30]uh keeping her up sort of um on the straight and narrow. But if she feels that somehow uh her daughters are being thrown to the wolves, then I think she will come out fighting.
[5:40]>> Wow. I do want to ask you about her daughters one of her daughters in a moment. Um but how worried would the monarchy be at this point? You know, you
[5:50]mentioned that she is seeking revenge. Would they be concerned as to if she does do a Netflix documentary or some sort of a tell-all interview, what could
[6:01]possibly come out? >> Well, a lot. Um, I mean, you know, she knows a lot of the the secrets and she's been involved with the royal family since 1985.
[6:11]Uh, and I think that was that's the big debate going on in the family at the moment. Charles wants to keep her in the tent, wants them to to avoid any of this coming out. I think William and
[6:21]Catherine and Camilla to a certain extent are much more saying, "We'll bring it on, you know, we'll get it out of the way and then she can do no more damage." So, um, there there are real
[6:32]tensions about how to deal with the Yorks and indeed how to deal with the daughters. >> Uh, now you mentioned their daughters. So, their daughter Princess Eugenie has
[6:42]shared a gorgeous photo of her sons August and Ernest meeting their newborn younger sister. The 36-year-old princess revealed her baby daughter her finally her name would be called Adelaide
[6:52]Elizabeth Annina Brooksbank. The post on Instagram, as you can see here, read, "Two weeks ago today, we welcomed our girl to the world and since then we've had the most special, cozy, and
[7:03]love-filled time." Andrew, this is meant to be such a special time for the family yet, you know, when mom and dad are completely rogue, it kind of puts a dampener on it. Where is Sarah Ferguson now? Do you
[7:14]think that we will see her back in Britain given that Princess Eugenie has just given birth? >> Well, she's with the she's with her daughter in Portugal at the moment. And I think we're going to see more of
[7:26]her more of her time being spent in Portugal. I think that's where she's going to base herself. Um, I think the real sadness is that Andrew, I think who knows whether he's
[7:37]going to have the same sort of direct contact with with the new granddaughter. But Sarah is very much there and there is this again this debate within the family and the the
[7:48]daughter kind of wants to live her own life. Uh they're worried about the repetition damage of being too closely associated with the with with her parents, particularly for her husband's
[7:58]job and that's true also Beatrice. Uh but at the same time, you know, there is a a great loyalty to the parents. I think it's stronger with Beatrice than with Eugenie who's always tried to go her own way a bit.
[8:10]So a lot of fractured family relationships there. Uh but the baby has has helped bring things together. And I think, you know, Sarah Ferguson thinks this is going to an opportunity for a
[8:20]reset. It's an opportunity to gain a bit of sympathy. Um uh and the question is um will there be more embarrassing revelations coming out? And there have
[8:29]been in recent days showing how she's been maneuvering around behind the scenes to discredit uh Virginia Giuffre and others using proxies like Victoria
[8:39]Harvey. So I mean that story is only just beginning to emerge. Uh and I write about some of the way she, for example, contacted private detectives to to get dirt on Giuffre. So
[8:51]it's not just Andrew. She's been very much pulling the strings there. There's also uh a company called Gate Ventures in which she was heavily involved which basically squandered millions of money
[9:02]from small Chinese investors and was spent on her own businesses. Uh and where she was paid a huge retainer by a man called Johnny Hon. Uh which she refuses to disclose exactly
[9:13]what she was doing for Johnny Hon. And that story I think is is going to break in a bigger way in the next few weeks. >> Well, so if if Sarah Ferguson was pulling the strings all along, I mean,
[9:25]does that not suggest that there is so much more to come out? How concerned would they be right now? >> Well, I think she's concerned about what's in the Epstein files. I mean, there are more numbers for her in the
[9:35]Epstein black book than for Andrew. She was a I would say a more regular visitor to the Epstein properties. Uh she was staying in the Epstein properties as
[9:45]late as 2015 having said she broken off contact in 2011. Uh and I think she's worried that that that whole side will come out. Everyone's been very focused on Andrew
[9:55]and Jeffrey and they're rather forgotten about Sarah Ferguson. In fact, there's there's quite a lot of evidence that it was Sarah Ferguson
[10:03]who introduced Andrew to Epstein. >> Oh gosh, you know, and I almost feel I know that the daughters were mentioned in the Epstein files, but I almost feel sorry for the daughters having to hear
[10:14]all this stuff come out week on week. It's just it's just shocking. And just on this at I I think you mentioned it earlier on that survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse, they're preparing to tell the UK
[10:26]Prime Minister Andy Burnham Burnham to launch a full public inquiry into the convicted pedophile's connections to Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, but also the wider British establishment. The UK
[10:37]Epstein survivors campaign plans to hold talks with Burnham in the months ahead as part of what it describes as a drive for truth and justice. Andrew, we know that there had been a lot of pressure on
[10:48]Andrew to appear at inquiries into Epstein particularly over in the US, but now that this is is occurring over in the UK, do you ever see a situation where Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor will
[11:00]indeed have to front a public inquiry and give evidence? >> Well, I've been certainly calling for parliamentary inquiry into his time as a trade envoy and for all those former
[11:11]ambassadors and heads of UKTI who refused to talk to me to be questioned under oath by Parliament because there's been a huge cover-up of what Andrew did as a trade envoy. Um I
[11:23]am hopeful now in a way I wasn't even a few weeks ago that the law enforcement is doing its job and that there may well be charges leveled against Andrew. I mean, there are very clear crimes have been
[11:34]committed. I mean, it's there in black and white in the Epstein files of sharing confidential information with unauthorized people. And this is a breach of the official secrets act and
[11:45]treason. So, whether he can be indicted on sex trafficking, I think is is more unlikely because it's very difficult for some of the victims to come forward. A
[11:55]lot of them are scared to do so. They have as part of their basically payoffs agreed not to to to to to bring charges. But, and the malfeasance in public
[12:07]office is is is is is quite a complicated charge to bring. But, it's a very obvious one under the official secrets act. And if they're going to charge Peter
[12:17]Mandelson, the former ambassador in America, then they're going to have to charge Andrew. >> Wow. Well, this story clearly has a lot to to come so far. I think we should all get our popcorn ready because it's going
[12:28]to be a fascinating ride, that's for sure. Andrew, let's talk about Prince Harry. There have been reports that he is planning to visit the UK every few months over the coming year after of
[12:40]course his recent reunion with his father King Charles. Now, he's set to next travel to the UK in September for a week of charitable commitments. What do you make of these revelations,
[12:52]Andrew? Because it's getting a little bit confusing from my end when it comes to Harry. So, first he says, "No, I can't travel to the UK because it's not safe for me. I need police protection. I want the taxpayer
[13:03]to pay for it." But, now suddenly what he wants to go back to the UK every few months. Why? >> Well, it's very similar to to the
[13:13]situation with the Duke of Windsor, the former Edward VIII. I mean, he was kind of cast into exile after his marriage to Wallis Simpson. And then he
[13:24]kind of wants to come back. And he used to test the ground by coming to visit people on a pretty regular basis. Uh I actually thought of buying a house in Britain. Uh and I think Harry's in the same
[13:35]position. I think uh all his attempt to break free from the royal family hasn't worked. There are tensions within the marriage. Uh she is kind of going her own way and he's going his. Uh and at least in terms of their
[13:47]professional lives. Uh and so I think he's hoping to reestablish himself here. Now this is going to be of course over the dead body of his brother uh and sister-in-law. But Charles is very keen
[13:58]for rapprochement. It's going to be part of his legacy. It's not good for for the monarchy to have brothers who are warring like this. Uh and uh some fudge
[14:09]will will I'm sure take place. You know, there's been this operation thaw to kind of bring him back into the fold. Uh and um I think that will happen now. I mean though people may feel very angry
[14:20]about some things he's said and done. Um time's a great healer. We've got to remember that Camilla was reviled as a figure and is now loved as the queen. Uh so things can change.
[14:31]>> But even if that does happen, Andrew, do you what what is the likelihood in your view that Prince William will indeed be happy enough to welcome him back with open arms after everything that has
[14:43]transpired? >> Well, I don't think William's going to welcome him back with open arms. I think Harry is going to do his various things, his various charities. He's currently not no longer a member of of the royal
[14:55]family in terms of being a working royal. Uh there may be family occasions where they're brought together, but I think all those things will be done behind closed doors. Um but I think maybe for the sake of the monarchy William will
[15:06]just have to be be told to to um be a man and and and put bygones behind him. Um I I think that's that's the advice that's been given, but but William is very stubborn
[15:17]uh and very proud. And I think you You there's a huge human drama going on here. Uh and I it's difficult to know how it could be brought back together. Uh Catherine is a great sort of
[15:27]conciliatory figure. Um but she herself is is is pretty adamantly, I think, against any sort of rapprochement. >> And I just want to ask you about that point that you raised about how Harry
[15:39]and Meghan, particularly in their professional lives, are going their own separate ways. And we've increasingly seen that over the last couple of months. Why do you think that they're trying to
[15:49]put that wedge between them? I mean, everything I feel like that they touch has been an absolute failure. But why do you think that they are trying to distance themselves from each other when
[15:59]it comes to their own careers? >> Well, I don't think they're getting on as well as they used to. I think um Harry has kind of woken up to the fact how he's been played by Meghan.
[16:11]Uh I think she's still hopeful that she can make it you know, she can still make lots of money by various activities that she's doing. I think he's lost interest in all that.
[16:21]And he wants to to I suppose create a legacy through Invictus and other things. He wants to go back to his inheritance. Uh and I think um
[16:32]you know, I think romantically, it's no longer as as as strong as it was. I think he's broken free from her. There's a long tradition in the royal family of rather weak men
[16:42]and a rather strong woman. Uh and um we saw it with the Duke of Windsor. It was certainly true to a certain with Prince Andrew. And I think it's been true of Harry. But I think
[16:52]he's beginning to wise up to to to to Meghan's tricks and uh trying to break free. And I think there are some attempts by the royal family to kind of draw him back in on his own, which is
[17:03]exactly what they did with Edward the VIII. Uh and to kind of kind of divide the two of them. So, um I don't think they're going to divorce. I mean, that he's going to want to stick close to his children.
[17:15]Uh and therefore, he's going to be stuck in California. I do think he's going to be trying to build bridges back with people in Britain. >> Well, it'll be fascinating to see, you know, if he can. And the other thing is,
[17:25]of course, whether or not the the British public would be willing to welcome him back with such open arms if that that is his ambitions to try and and bridge the gaps. It's going to be
[17:35]very very interesting. Um and of course, Andrew, the the Sussexes, they were executive producers for this documentary Cookie Queens, which seemed to bomb at the box office the other week. And as I
[17:47]said, I just feel like everything that these two touch it is a complete failure. What would be your advice for them? >> Well, my advice to them and it would be
[17:59]the same advice to the Yorks is to give up their titles and to return to basically a non-royal life. Um uh not to monetize their royal position,
[18:09]but actually get proper careers based on um on their abilities. I mean, the problem is that no none of those four people have any great ability, which is why
[18:20]they've had to sort of use their royal status to make money. But Beatrice and Eugenie are basically just um uh working for firms where they they're
[18:30]introducing business to the firm. Uh and uh I refused to do, for example, an audit of their business activities, which is what William wanted. So, um I think the
[18:41]advice would be um to just basically disassociate yourself from the royal family. I think William will eventually get rid of titles for those except in the direct line of
[18:50]succession. He will want a much smaller, more European-style monarchy. Uh and I mean, he's keen to get started with that sooner rather than later. He's rather frustrated that his father hasn't
[19:02]made the changes that he thinks are necessary. >> Mhm. Yeah, it seems that I feel like Prince William will be a very modern-day king and and really put in things in
[19:14]place pretty swiftly, unlike what, you know, King Charles has done. Um and just just on that point then, I mean, what what do you see as the future of the monarchy? It has faced a number of
[19:25]headwinds in recent years, particularly after the death of the Queen, the cancer battles, Andrew, Sarah Ferguson, and of course the ongoing Sussex drama. What's
[19:34]the future? >> Well, I think they're they're at a crossroads. I mean, they can modernize, they can reform, they can win back trust and respect of the British public, which
[19:44]has been lost uh through the activities of people like Andrew and Sarah Ferguson uh by being more transparent and accountable uh by um there's a whole series of
[19:55]things that they could do. Uh they're covered by exemptions in, for example, the Freedom of Information Act, their wills are closed, there's no royal register, there's no parliamentary
[20:04]accountability. Um and I think there big questions over also the Duchy of Lancaster and Cornwall estates, which the King and the Prince of Wales control. Um and I think if they do were to
[20:16]reform, make themselves fit for purpose in the 21st century, then I think they have a bright future ahead of them. But if they continue to stick their head in the sand, to not complain or to explain,
[20:26]and to carry on as they are with too little, too late in terms of changes, then I think they're in last chance saloon. I mean, we're seeing fewer and fewer people come out to support them at events, there's a lot of heckling. What
[20:38]did they know about uh Andrew? Or when did they know about it? What did they do about it? Uh and uh I I think they're going to be in real trouble, and I don't think they realize how serious it is. I
[20:49]think the crisis is the worst position for the royal family in the last 500 years, and they're kind of sleepwalking into disaster. >> Yeah, it doesn't sound good. Uh well, let's see what the uh the next couple of
[21:01]years hold. Andrew Lownie, uh writer of Entitled: The Rise and Fall of the House of York, and we also find you on the Lowery report on YouTube and Substack. An absolute pleasure to speak with you.
[21:12]Thank you so much for joining us on the show. Really enjoyed the informed discussion. Thank you so much. >> A pleasure.