[0:00]The Epstein investigation is closed. That was July. The Epstein investigation is reopened. That was today. President Trump's reversal and the legal
[0:09]contortions it revealed. Air travel slowly getting back to normal. TSA, as we know, is a big part of that conversation. We will talk to the current deputy director about what to
[0:19]expect in the ramp up to Thanksgiving. And Chris Matthews joins us with his new book on Bobby Kennedy and the lessons his life and politics could teach all of
[0:29]us. Now, hello everyone. I'm Major Garrett in
[0:40]Washington. Welcome to the Takeout. We begin tonight with a Justice Department st statement issued July 7th of this year. Now, I know July 7th feels like a very long time ago, but it is or should
[0:52]be a very big part of the news President Trump made today on the Jeffrey [music] Epstein matter. Trump's Justice Department issued that statement July 7th, two-page memo about its review of
[1:02]Epstein documents and evidence. This key sentence speaks to us today. Quote, "We did not uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against
[1:13]uncharged third parties." Unquote. The memo spoke to the department's exhaustive review of all information and concluded Epstein had no client list,
[1:23]never blackmailed anyone. Also, that Epstein sex trafficking quote harmed over 1,000 victims unquote. More than 1,000 victims, a number much higher than
[1:35]had been publicly chronicled or even imagined before this memo was released. And yet, no blackmail, no client list, and no reason to investigate anyone
[1:44]else. Today, President Trump said on social media that he had directed Attorney General Pam Bondi and the Department of Justice, quote, to investigate Jeffrey Epstein's involvement and relationship with Bill
[1:55]Clinton, Larry Summers, Reed Hoffman, JP Morgan Chase, unquote because he went on to say, "All quote arrows are pointing to the Democrats unquote." Wait, what
[2:07]arrows? What investigation? The July 7th memo made clear, as I just read, there were no arrows, and all investigations had led to the same conclusion. Let me
[2:16]repeat it. Quote, "We did not uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties." Unquote. Today, Bondi said
[2:26]she'd already assigned the investigation to prosecutors in New York. Does that mean they missed something before? They didn't do their jobs? that the DOJ blundered on one of the highest profile
[2:37]investigations of this year. Is this an investigation or a diversion? Sifting the government's own statements and actions makes it very hard to tell. What
[2:49]we do know is Epstein's victims are where they have always been, persistently seeking all the government knows and has yet to reveal or act upon. Many sent an open letter to Congress
[3:01]today about future consideration of a bill to demand release of all the Epstein files, which doubtless will include information about convicted accomplice Gileain Maxwell.
[3:11]That letter to members of Congress reads in part, "There is no middle ground here. There is no hiding behind party affiliation, Epstein and Maxwell's crimes exposed a double standard of
[3:22]justice where rich and powerful men and women evade repercussions." End quote. We begin tonight with Nancy Cortis at the White House and it was very busy on social media at the White House with all
[3:34]of this today. Nancy, take it away. Uh, Major, it would appear just based on the timeline that what President Trump is reacting to and what he's so
[3:44]frustrated about is the fact that there are now 218 signatures from members of Congress on a petition to force a vote
[3:54]to get the DOJ to release all of the Epstein files. Um, this is something that clicked into place this week uh after a member of Congress who won a
[4:05]special election in Arizona was finally sworn in. There are now 218 votes. Um, a handful of Republicans have signed their names and perhaps more distressingly to
[4:15]the president. Uh, a number of House Republicans who did not sign on to the petition said that if this comes up for a vote next week, they're going to vote yes because that's what their constituents want. Um the argument that
[4:27]lawmakers from both sides have been making is that if uh President Trump has not done anything wrong and there's no indication from the emails we've seen so far that there are any um new um
[4:39]criminal complications for him, then uh he shouldn't be distressed by the release of the Epstein files. But he railed against them on social media today. He said any Republicans who go along with the release of the Epstein
[4:50]files are uh weak. They're stupid. And then he issued this bombshell, the fact that he wants Democrats with links to Epstein to be investigated. And in short
[5:02]order, his attorney general said, "Thank you very much, Mr. President. We will do so." >> Nancy, you rais a very important point. Nothing disclosed today by the House
[5:12]Oversight Committee, Democrats, and the releases of emails pointed any criminality or even potential criminality of the president. Nothing. Nothing at all. And yet when I talk to
[5:21]Republicans about this, they're like, "The Trump Justice Department has this information. They could release it. The president could get ahead of this politically, strategically, from a
[5:32]communications point of view." And yet he doesn't. And they, meaning the Republicans I talked to on the Hill, keep telling me privately, this is forcing our hand. We have to do
[5:42]something because they're not handling it on their terms. >> Right. And it only adds to the mystery of why President Trump uh is so concerned about the release of the
[5:53]Epstein files that the White House even tried to convince at least one House Republican uh Lauren Boowart of Colorado this week not to sign her name to that
[6:03]petition. Um the other big question here major is why once again the president appears to be ignoring historical precedent set by presidents from both
[6:14]sides of the aisle in years past that they don't try to tell the FBI or the Department of Justice publicly or even privately who they should investigate to
[6:25]avoid any appearance of politics playing a role in prosecutions. And yet, um, we've seen him do that publicly in the
[6:33]past, uh, urging the DOJ to indict people like Leticia James, uh, people like James Comey, even after career prosecutors have advised that there's
[6:44]not enough there there to bring a case. Um, in those instances, uh, the DOJ went along with what President Trump wanted and clearly they are now doing that again by announcing that they are going
[6:55]to have the top prosecutor in New York's Southern District, look into um, President Clinton's relationship with uh, Jeffrey Epstein, with Reed Hoffman,
[7:06]a big Democratic donor's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, even after, as you pointed out, the president's own Department of Justice said earlier this year that there wasn't a
[7:16]Yeah, when that memo came out on July 7th, the Department of Justice said that was the last word. Apparently, it was just the next to the last word. Nancy Cordis, thank you very much. Sources tell CBS News that senior military
[7:28]officials presented President Trump with options for potential military options in Venezuela. We discussed this on the program last night. This is a moving story. I'm going to keep an eye on it. The meeting took place after at least 20 strikes have been carried out by the US
[7:39]military since September on vessels suspected to be fing some manner of drugs toward the United States. At least 80 people have been killed thus far.
[7:49]Eleanor Watson is following all this for us. Ellie, what can you tell us about the options and what within Venezuela
[7:58]itself may be a target the military is at least considering or presenting options for the president about? Well, Major, what we know is that this week the Defense Secretary Pete Hgsth
[8:10]and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dan Kaine, have presented, as you said, President Trump with military options, including striking land targets inside Venezuela. That would be a major escalation from
[8:22]what we've seen so far with strikes against alleged drug boats in international waters. The Pentagon already has seven warships in the Caribbean, and it's expected this weekend the world's largest aircraft
[8:34]carrier, the Gerald R. Ford, and its escort ships will join them. The Ford carrier strike group together has missiles with the range to strike targets on land without flying over
[8:44]Venezuela, which still has air defenses that could pose a threat to US war plananes. Those US strikes could target cartel facilities or military
[8:54]installations in Venezuela. The precise strikes though, the precise targets will depend on what President Trump is aiming to do here. Is this about weakening drug
[9:04]cartels or is he determined to overthrow Venezuela's government? >> Eleanor, as you know, the United Nations has raised questions about the legality
[9:14]of this. This has disturbed our British and French allies to the extent that they're less comfortable than they historically have been in sharing intelligence information over questions
[9:24]about the legality of these actions. I know it's murky and hard to tell, but what do we know, if anything, about the legal justifications the defense department or department of war have put together for the president
[9:35]on this? >> Well, the defense secretary has been asked multiple times, including by me, what is the legal authority of these strikes? And he says that the defense department has complete and total
[9:46]authority. There is a notification the Trump administration sent to Congress earlier this year that said the administration is in an armed conflict with the drug cartels because of how
[9:58]many Americans die each year through overdoses of fentanyl and cocaine. That is a shift in what we've traditionally seen when dealing with alleged drug
[10:09]smugglers where they've been treated as criminals and not combatants. The Trump administration has presented arguments behind the scenes to Congress, but has not fully publicly presented an
[10:20]argument. And that has allies, as you said, in Europe and in Latin America, as well as members of Congress concerned about the justification. The Secretary
[10:29]of Defense this week formally named this operation, Operation Southern Spear, in a tweet with just maybe four lines. There have been no public Pentagon press
[10:39]briefings on this, no backgrounders, and no real information about who is being targeted in each strike. >> Elellanar Watson, thank you very much for all of that information and context.
[10:51]CBS News national security contributor Sam Vinegrad joins me now. Uh Sam, it's always great to have you here. Used to be considered criminals, now combatants. That's a big leap. It has lots of
[11:02]implications. has implications from a legal perspective. But to take it one step further, Major, we've now gone from the administration thinking about and implementing military strikes against
[11:12]narot terrorists, which they are legally considering to be combatants, much like terrorists on the battlefield in Afghanistan or Iraq, to actually receiving reporting that the president
[11:22]is reviewing reviewing military options to strike within Venezuela. So not just in international waters, actual strikes within the territorial boundaries of another sovereign nation. That unto
[11:33]itself is also a big escalation despite the fact that the president hasn't yet said he's implementing those military options. It's a big leap. >> Let my audience know about the complexity of dealing with Venezuela
[11:45]militarily. >> Sure. So if you look at Venezuela's military, they have over 120,000 active duty military. I say that though with one caveat. Venezuela's military
[11:56]has certainly atrophied. They uh got a lot of military equipment from the Russians, for example, including air defense systems and other assets. But because of declining oil revenues,
[12:07]because of sanctions based upon Chavez and Maduro's actions, the level at which their military has been maintained and trained is questionable, Major, but this would not be a cakewalk. Venezuela is a
[12:19]very large territory, twice the size of California, about 30 million people or so. About 8 million have fled, but still about 30 million people. Large territory, geographically rugged, a lot of urban centers. This wouldn't just be
[12:30]one and done. If there was a land invasion or even air strikes, it would be a very complex operation. >> Sam, you've been a part of internal government conversations about options
[12:42]and legalities. Based on what you've seen from this administration, how rigorous or not rigorous has this legal process been about justifying
[12:52]killing people in international waters because their boats are suspected to carry narcotics? >> Well, to be clear, it is prudent planning for any president to review all options and then to have counsel
[13:03]honestly and analytically tell the president what is legal and what is not. What I fear, major, is that the president is identifying a tool and telling his lawyers a way to figure out
[13:13]how to explain it and how to use it and how to use it versus having an actual discussion on the legality of a particular matter. And that's concerning. And historically, has it
[13:23]been the case for any United States government to look at a solitary boat several thousand nautical miles from the United States, which these boats have
[13:34]been, as a proximate threat to the security of the country? >> Well, we have had instances in which there have been drone strikes against terrorists, not boats carrying drugs,
[13:44]but against terrorists very far away and have argued that they pose an immediate danger to the United States. The issue here is we've taken a jump from actual armed terrorists to suspected narot
[13:55]traffickers. We see no evidence of what these boats are actually carrying. As you and I were discussing, boats coming from Venezuela are typically not carrying fentinyl. Fentinel is not manufactured in Venezuela.
[14:06]>> Trans shipment point for cocaine, not fentinel. >> Indeed, which is also bad. But so while we have used military assets to kill terrorists very far away from the United States based upon a threat uh
[14:18]assessment, we haven't actually really seen the evidence here that these boats do pose approximate threat based upon what they're carrying. >> Sam Vinegrad, always super helpful. Thank you so very much. >> The shutdown is over. I'm sure you've
[14:30]heard that. But some airports, well, they're still dealing with some very difficult staffing and [music] traveler flow issues. TSA Deputy Director Adam Stall joins me next to
[14:40]discuss when [music] things might be back to normal. We hope that's sooner than later and what's going on with TSA pay because there's a suggestion that those [music] who work long hours might get as much as a $10,000 bonus. We'll find out about all that when we come
[14:51]back. Also, plus all indications suggest very very strongly, [music] I think we should say, that JD Vance has some ambitions for the White House in 2028. Marco Rubio, the current Secretary of
[15:02]State, well, he might have them as well. Could that create a conflict? [music] Vance says no. He calls Marco Rubio his quote best friend. And the Kennedy family, well, a political dynasty for
[15:13]generations in this country. My [music] conversation with political commentator Chris Matthews about his new book outlining the lessons he believes this nation can still learn from Bobby Kennedy. The Takeout returns in [music]
[15:24]90 seconds. Welcome back. Air travel disruptions
[15:35]linked to the government shutdown are still causing some headaches out there for travelers. According to flight aare tracks all this. There have been more than 2300 delayed flights today more
[15:46]than 600 canceled flights. That's 600 flight about 2% rate. The normal is about 1% but things are improving from where we started this week. Last Sunday
[15:56]about 2600 flights canled. That was about 10%. The FAA has ordered the nation's major airports, 40 of them, to
[16:04]cut flight capacity to six by 6%. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy said today those reductions will remain in place for now. TSA's acting deputy
[16:16]director Adam Stall joins me now from Charleston airport in South Carolina. Adam, thank you for your time. I appreciate it. Uh, my audience may not know, but I know you know the FAA is part of the Department of
[16:26]Transportation. Transportation Safety Administration is part of DHS, Department of Homeland Security. That's your lane. So, in your lane, sir. How are things going? How are your employees? And how do you imagine this
[16:37]weekend will get us closer to normal? >> Yeah. Well, first major, thanks so much for having me. I think we've really done an incredible job. The workforce has done a fantastic job really readjusting
[16:47]uh working 40 days, uh 40 nights, and and going through a long duration of time again to serve the American people honorably. And so, uh they've been fantastic. We may see a bit of a lag,
[16:57]but uh unscheduled absences are continuing to down tick and uh we may see some slight interruptions or slight uh impacts as we, you know, go back to normal uh until we get that that that
[17:09]next paycheck on Thursday, but we are really confident going into a busy Thanksgiving travel season, >> right? We're ramping up uh the flow really begins to increase about a week
[17:20]from now and you think you'll be ready? >> Yeah, absolutely. Again, our our folks have showcased incredible dedication, resilience, professionalism, and we uh are are are really uh laser focused on
[17:31]on this busy travel season. We are we are ready. And the uh DHS Secretary Christy Gnome said earlier this week, bonuses of up to $10,000
[17:41]might be directed at some TSA employees. Is that true? And how might that happen? >> Yeah, so that is true. And so yesterday uh the secretary began issuing out
[17:51]$10,000 checks uh for folks specific to Houston, but that's going to be rolled out to the broader nation. They have demonstrated exemplary work that have showed up day in day out uh and safely
[18:01]and securely uh ensure the safe movement of the traveling public again with extraordinary dedication. And so we're going to continue to do that across the airport. Don't want to get into specific determinations about how we're
[18:12]determining that. Uh but we want again to showcase our appreciation uh for those folks that continue to show up uh and work uh with tremendous dedication and professionalism. >> When you review this government
[18:24]shutdown, will you find that the absenteeism or the unavailable for work was a large problem, a small problem, or not much of a problem at all?
[18:36]>> I think unscheduled absences are an issue and we're continuing to address those proactively. I think the administration has been laser focused again on incentivizing folks to come back to work and and so that $10,000
[18:46]paycheck uh is a great example of of of the administration's continuing commitment to those uh to come in uh and continue to showcase exemplary performance. And so again, we're
[18:56]continuing to address that. Uh um again, but uh that's that's a continuous emphasis today, but also in the coming weeks and months as well. And what did you hear from TSA employees during the
[19:06]shutdown in terms of the difficulties they were encountering daytoday? >> Yeah, so these are human beings like you and I and they have families. They have, you know, wives, husbands, daughters,
[19:17]uh, and and and a variety, uh, of of these individuals again are professional. They're dedicated, they're mission focused, but again, uh, they felt the financial, operational, political impacts. And so, uh, they it
[19:28]really frankly challenged them. Uh but we again saw tremendous dedication and a lot of folks frankly coming out to support them both airlines, airports, private sectors, individual um you know
[19:38]travelers as well. And so we've received a variety of support, a widespread show of support uh for our TSA officers and we're incredibly grateful. Uh this just underscores what we already know that our folks here across the country are
[19:50]dedicated uh to really safely and securely uh ensure the movement of every single day travels across the United States. And Adam, this is not related to the shutdowns, but it's related to some decisions that have been made in this
[20:01]administration to maintain safety, but also increase speed through the TSA process. Walk me through what you have learned about those changes thus far.
[20:12]>> Yeah, so I we've we've looked, I think, at a variety of different things. I think EGates is one example. We're looking at a variety of of efforts again to both ensure the safe and secure
[20:22]movement while also not and really efficiently allowing for the safe movement while also not adversely impacting security as well. And so we're going to continue uh to find creative ways to really maximize the movement of
[20:34]people while also not adversely impacting security. And so we're looking at a variety of ways. I I mentioned Egates, but there's a variety of mechanisms and efforts that we're looking at as well right now. Uh so we're going to continue to do that
[20:44]again, but we're focused again on on ensuring a safe uh and efficient movement of people again every single day and that's going to continue in the next uh you know one month, two months, three months and down and down the road as well.
[20:55]>> I did not travel much during the shutdown, but when I did I made sure to thank those with the TSA for being there without pay. Adam Stall, I appreciate your time very much, sir. Thank you. >> Thank you.
[21:07]>> In a post Republican party, who is the he parent to President Trump and the MAGA movement? Well, Vice President JD Vance said even if it comes down to him versus Secretary of State Marco Rubio,
[21:17]it won't be a rivalry. Well, you can believe that or you cannot believe it, but that's what he said. Our political panel weighs in next right here on the Takeout. Welcome back. Thanks for hanging out
[21:35]with us. Here's a look at And now you are watching this evening. There was a bit of a disturbance this morning. That's putting it mildly. Outside an ICE facility in Broadway, Illinois. That's in suburban Chicago. Protesters pushed
[21:47]past a barricade and confronted police. At least 20 people were arrested and multiple officers were injured. Injured. An eyewitness said he heard a taser go off and someone saw someone drop to the
[21:58]ground. At least one person among those arrested appeared to be a member of the clergy. The situation at the facility has since calmed down, but tensions in that neighborhood remain high.
[22:09]Overnight, Russia launched a barrage of missiles and drones on Ukraine's capital, Kev. Officials say it left six dead, dozens more injured, including children. That attack hit civilians living in a residential neighborhood of
[22:20]the capital. Ukraine also carried out an attack of its own, hitting a Russian oil depot along the Black Sea. It's one of Russia's largest export facilities and a source of revenue for the Kremlin. On
[22:32]social media, Ukrainian President Zalinsky called the strikes quote justified response to the ongoing Russian terror," unquote. Vice President JD Vance was asked about his aspirations
[22:43]for 2028 and a potential rivalry with Secretary of State Marco Rubio during an interview that aire on Fox last night with Sean Hannity. Here is part of what he said. >> We're going to win the midterms. We're
[22:54]going to do everything that we can to win the midterms. And then after that, I'm going to sit down with the president of the United States and talk to him about it. Marco eventually runs for president, then that's that's that we can cross that bridge when we come to
[23:04]it. But one, look, if you get to >> Trump wants to design the next ticket, you know, I know he does like to take control of that. >> Yeah. But you know, but people have asked me, well, you do you see Marco as
[23:14]a rival? First of all, if if either one of us end up running, it's a long long ways in the future and neither of us is entitled to it. So I think it would be ridiculous for me to say, well, Marco is
[23:25]a rival. No, no, no. Marco's a colleague. went on to say he's his best friend in the cabinet. I want to bring in our reporter panel. Elanor Mueller covers Congress for Semaphore. Julia Manchester, White House reporter for the
[23:36]Hill. Okay, let's just get to the heart of what what happened in that exchange. Sean Hannity said, "You know, Donald Trump wants to design the ticket." And JD Vance said, "Yes, I know that."
[23:47]>> That's a headline, kids. >> He did. He did >> straight up. That's a headline, >> right? And he also said after the >> on two levels, >> of course, >> Trump wants to do that one, and he acknowledged it. point 2 that sort of
[23:59]erases the whole third term thing, >> right? Kind of >> seemingly does. Yeah. >> With JD agreeing with it and Sean Hannity giving voice to it, right? >> Within the world that that is existing
[24:09]in, it seems to me kind of important. >> Absolutely. And I thought it was also notable how JD Vance was quick to say after the midterms, I'm going to sit down with the president, have a talk about my future. Um, so that's something
[24:21]to obviously re uh keep an eye out on. But I think it's interesting hearing sort of these questions about the future of the Republican party. I think right now the party is at a bit of a crossroads. I mean they didn't have a
[24:33]great week last week during the off-year elections but also we are seeing some division within the party over some of President Trump's recently recent comments on H-1B visas for example. You
[24:44]have division for example institutions like the Heritage Foundation. So there's a lot of questions about who carries the MAGA flag if anyone can going forward. I thought his comments about Rubio were
[24:55]also interesting. You know, we haven't really heard either of them speak that directly to their plans for 2028. And the fact that he's clearly not assuming that Marco Rubio is going to step aside for him if he wants to run, if Trump wants him to win. Instead, he's saying,
[25:07]to your point, this is my best friend. We're going to talk about it. You know, this is more of a give and take unless it's my way or the highway. >> And Trump was recently quoted saying, as a combination, you guys would be unstoppable. He didn't say who would be
[25:18]one and who would be two in that combination. just a Vance Rubio combination would be unstoppable. Clearly, they're eyeing him and more more importantly in politics. It's not just they have ambitions, but people
[25:28]within the MAGA movement both look to Vance and Rubio as likely challengers for the nomination in 2028. So, it's external as well as whatever their internal engine of ambition is. I want
[25:39]to play for you some sound from Marjorie Taylor Green who was on CBS Mornings today about Jeffrey Epstein, her conversations with survivors/victims,
[25:50]depending on your terminology, and what she thinks about President Trump and the handling of all this. Please listen. >> I've talked to many of the women and the women themselves have said that Donald
[26:01]Trump did nothing wrong and even their attorneys said that Donald Trump was the only one that helped them. Um, so I'll just being very honest with you, it's
[26:10]something that I don't understand. I think it's a huge uh miscalculation. >> What she doesn't understand is what I was talking to Nancy Cordis about. And Republicans when I discuss this with
[26:21]them privately say this a lot. If there's nothing there and you're in the clear, release it. You have the power of the Justice Department. You singularly, you clearly have an appetite for directing the Justice Department to do
[26:33]all manner of things. Why not this? >> Yeah, you interviewed. >> You hear that? You hear that much the same thing, don't you? >> Yes. And her point is and continues to be the Trump administ administration is
[26:44]underestimating just how much this means to the mega base. You know, I think that she at least as she sees it, the advisers in the White House kind of thought that this was something they could sweep under the rug that people would move on from that they could kind
[26:55]of tamp down and [snorts] that's not proving to be true. And I don't think that would prove to be true even if we were not seeing this push in Capitol Hill from Thomas Massie and Roana and a whole group of others. So yeah,
[27:06]fascinating to watch play out in the House next week when they get >> Julia. There's now conversation among Republicans that there's going to be a mini stampede to vote for this next week when it comes to the floor, the discharge petition, not just going to be
[27:17]218, not some squeaker that a lot of Republicans are going to say, I'm I'm I'm for it. Even if they weren't on it to begin with, >> right. Right. And I mean, look, it's just a story for Trump that doesn't go away. And it raises questions. I mean, we're talking about it if it goes
[27:29]through the House, what happens in the Senate? I mean, that's a big question. But going back to what how President Trump is handling this, I think what was so telling this week or what raised a lot of our eyebrows is that he was
[27:40]playing phone tag with Nancy Mace. He summoned Lauren Boowbert to the White House situ uh to the situation room to um you know talk about this discharge petition and removing her name. It's
[27:52]just it's baffling to me because this is something the president and the vice president literally campaigned in part on. They talked about this as a way to motivate their base. >> And Marjorie Taylor Green also addressed a question from Gail King on CBS
[28:04]Mornings about the president saying she's lost her way, please. >> Are you surprised yourself that you're aligned with the Democrats on some of these issues? And President Trump says you seem to have lost your way. Can you
[28:16]respond to both about you? >> Well, first of all, I haven't lost my way. I'm for the American people only. I'm America first, and I make no
[28:24]apologies about that to anyone. And this goes to what we were discussing a moment ago. What does America first mean? Does it mean a 50-year mortgage?
[28:34]Does it mean toggling back tariffs that two months ago the administration said weren't being paid by consumers, weren't inflationary, but now they're like, "Well, we got to retool them or something." And how does that land with the MAGA world? All these things are
[28:45]little points of contention. >> Absolutely. I think it's in some ways bigger than Marjorie Taylor Green or maybe Marjorie Taylor Green may have her own issues in terms of her relationship with the president, but I think this is
[28:56]about the future of the MAGA movement and this question of whether MAGA is a cult of I don't want to say a cult but um a personality around the president or singularly by Donald Trump
[29:07]>> by Donald Trump or is it a set of policies that empowers the working class of America? >> Eleanor. Yeah, I mean this is how Marjorie Taylor Green has always talked about her opinions about the Republican party. You know, she says she ran for
[29:19]office in the first place because she saw Republicans saying they'd do one thing on the campaign trail, getting elected, then doing another thing. And so she sees the last few weeks of her speaking out against the GOP as a
[29:30]continuation of those values. It's fascinating though because she walks a very careful line between critiquing things that the administration does that she doesn't like for example not releasing all of the Epstein files and
[29:41]also being very careful not to directly critique President Trump. You know she said in her tweet today that just to be clear you know I think we should release the files but Trump didn't say anything.
[29:51]So [snorts] something she's very very very >> Ellen I want to give you the last word before we have to go in about a minute. You've got reporting on how the government shutdown cost things economically but also cost us in terms of data.
[30:02]Yes, it did. So, I mean, there's billions of dollars in GDP that we're not going to be able to recover. I think 11 billion dollars at least was what the Congressional Budget Office estimated. But we are also not going to get key
[30:13]economic data on inflation and employment for the month of October. Even the data that does wind up coming out, I think the quality, the consensus that could be dramatically impacted because researchers are now collecting
[30:24]figures from several weeks ago instead of the most recent week. And all of those things complicate the flight path for the Fed as it decides next month whether or not to cut interest rates. So really, really key moment.
[30:35]>> Murky data makes it hard to make clear-cut decisions. Elmer Mueller, Julia Manchester, as always. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. >> It's been more than 50 years since Robert F. Kennedy was assassinated, but it political influence, well, it's still
[30:47]felt today. Up next, my conversation with political commentator Chris Matthews about his new book about Bobby Kennedy, and I ask him why he left his son and Trump cabinet member RFK Jr. out of that book. You're watching the
[30:58]takeout. 100 years after the birth of Robert F. Kennedy, a new book explores what made
[31:09]him such an iconic and lasting figure and lessons from Bobby, 10 reasons Robert F. Kennedy still matters. Political commentator Chris Matthews re-examines the ideals that led to
[31:20]Bobby's lasting impact on America's political life. Earlier today, I spoke with Matthews. The title, Lessons from Bobby, >> right?
[31:31]>> 10 Reasons Robert F. Kennedy Still Matters. >> I read it. It's quick read. What's the biggest lesson you think he would tell us from his life to remember today put
[31:42]into purpose? >> Well, to me, I worked on the Hill, as you know, as a Capitol cop in the beginning. I came back from the Peace Corp. I I I really
[31:52]was with the guys, the working guys and u and then I was out top baited the speaker for six years. So I know it all. And when I saw the capital being busted
[32:02]in January of 21, I go, why is this? It's because one man had broken the rules, which is you accept defeat. And it's it's you got to belly up. You got to walk out and you shouldn't run for
[32:13]office unless you get it in your head you're going to accept defeat because it's 50/50 that the games go either way. and um I was in the Peace Corp. One thing I I did respect about my country a
[32:24]lot was I could hitchhike around Africa, which I did, and I'd be able to say to myself, "Hey, look, I come from a democracy where people actually get defeated. They go back and teach at some
[32:35]school somewhere and and it was not the worst thing ever happened to them." And uh and they on television on this medium tell their voters they lost. That's really important. Adelaide Stevenson did
[32:46]it back in the 50s. Nixon didn't quite do it. He did it. He met with Kennedy down in Florida, but most people But Hillary Clinton did it. I was there that day and and Al Gore did it. Best speech
[32:58]of his life. >> Yes, it was. >> And um it was um it's a part of the ritual. >> And I when when Trump started to do the um stop the steel thing, that's so third
[33:10]world. That's what goes on in Zimbabwe. fairly or not, the losers that claim every election's been stolen and the winners arrest everybody when they win. They what are we doing now? You know,
[33:20]James Comey and uh and Leticia James and we're going out after people that are not guilty of anything but but losing an election. So Bobby's big message would be now the biggest lesson of his life which you talk about in the Oregon
[33:32]primary is admit defeat and concede with your >> and he did it so effectively that our old friend Pat Buchanan I use that somewhat loosely but our friend Pat said he was never as impressed with that guy
[33:42]when as he was when he accepted defeat >> 68 in the Oregon primary >> which was a week before he was killed >> right >> and that meant a lot and by the way that's what forced him into the kind of
[33:52]campaign he had to run in California very physical where your shoes are taking off, your ties are taking off because you have to work with the poor people and you got to get out there and get get with them. And he exposed
[34:03]himself to the point what happened to him. In fact, Arthur Slesinger, the great historian, said he could have told how it was going to end, the kind of campaign he was running. It's so close
[34:15]exposed >> so much with the people in so many different places. He was exposed to so much risk. Jack Newfield said he spent his life with diplomats and wealthy people and astronauts and movie stars
[34:26]and he ended up reaching for the hand of a $75 a week dishwasher, a Mexican-American dishwasher. And that's >> the Ambassador Hotel in the in the kitchen. >> Did you Where were you when that happened?
[34:38]>> I was very young. I was six years old. >> I was in Montreal with a friend of mine. He was looking for a job up there to get out of war. And I got up at 3:00 in the morning, listened to radio, network
[34:48]radio. And what did I hear? I thought I heard a replay of Dallas. I said, "This is Dallas again." And I go, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. This is This is done. This is just happened." It was
[35:00]stunning. >> Can you deal with this conversation, Chris, and not talk about RFK Jr.? >> No. It'll come up. And I'll tell you what I did. Uh uh, first of all, I know what everybody
[35:12]knows, which is the all the former surgeon generals want them to quit. I get that part. But bipartisan when I uh read about what he was he was 14 years
[35:23]old when he a little older than you. He was 14 years old uh when his dad was killed. He was a good Samaritan hospital and u he was crying. So it's a natural
[35:33]relationship. It was it was an human relationship and good for him. Um I do remember a long time ago remember what a great environmentalist he was. I was
[35:45]down in Baja California with him on a mission to save the whales from a Japanese desalination camp plant. Uh I called him after I finished the book. I
[35:56]got his phone number and called him up and I said I think he was surprised I called him but I said I've just written a book about your dad and it's very positive and I didn't mention you [laughter]
[36:08]and then I said no controversy but I I know what everybody knows. I mean we've beaten measles. We're beating these diseases and polio. We were so lucky to beat them with good doctors and
[36:19]researchers. Why do you want to go backwards? We still got cancer to beat. There's so many things to beat. No matter what complexity enters a family, a father will always recognize his son.
[36:30]But do you think Robert F. Kennedy would have something to say to RFK Jr. about his journey in politics? >> No. But he might say something to U
[36:44]Schlberg who just announced the other day. Now he could give him some advice like don't say that Trump's going to run for a third term, right? >> Because he's not, right? >> It's not going to happen. And why are you even speculating like that? You're
[36:55]out with the crazy people on the left as well as the right >> and they're all they're both goofy. The ones that think Trump will run again. All I know is he lost in 2020. He created that mob. He went to the
[37:06]Capitol, tore down what I believed in. And and but the big question is to all his people, why did he leave if he didn't lose? Why did he why did he get up pack up? Hey Melanie, we're getting out of here. Why why did he do that? If
[37:18]he won. You can catch the rest of my interview with Chris Matthews on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, the Wreck of the Edund Fitzgerald. You might know the name of that tragedy from
[37:28]Annals of History, the hit song from 1976 or more recently on the hit TV show Severance. [music] Next, we look back the famous shipwreck from just over 50
[37:39]years ago. That's next right here on the ticket. You may recognize that somewhat haunting
[38:09]tune being whistled in the popular Apple TV show Severance. You might not, however, know the backstory. It's a ballad, a beautiful one, that commemorates the real life calamity that
[38:20]happened almost 50 years ago to the day, the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald on Lake Superior. That song in the severance episode spawned multiple
[38:30]conspiracy theories among severance fans and the Edund Fitzgerald legacy has endured all these decades later and has sort of been revisited as a result. Neta
[38:40]Ulibby, a reporter for NPR's Arts Desk, is familiar with this tragedy and this very famous song written by Gourd Lightfoot. She joins me now. >> It's so nice to be here.
[38:50]>> So, you wrote about all of this. talk about the song because the song to me is the most important part of this story because it's about something that happened and memorialized it and brought
[39:02]it to the audience in the 70s and it's now with us 50 years later. >> Sure. The the artist who wrote the song, Gordon Lightfoot, was himself a great sailor. He was a Canadian who felt a connection to nature and to the Great
[39:13]Lakes very very deeply. He was a a wonderful sailor himself. He he raced on the Great Lakes. He knew its waters well. And when the the actual SS Edmond
[39:24]Fitzgerald went down on November 10th in 1975, he was deeply affected by the tragedy and was very upset by how little attention uh that the tragedy got in the
[39:34]news media. 29 men died and he um he felt that it had been given short shrift. As he said, he had been noodling away on a a ballad and uh couldn't get
[39:45]it out of his mind. He didn't want to write a song that was cheesy or hokey or didn't properly pay homage to to the real men who had died in this in this tragedy. And at the same time, it was
[39:56]burning inside of him. He needed to write a song. He and his bandmates Major were writing were were recording an album in 19 for his 1976 album Summertime Dream. And between recording
[40:08]this song and that song, he would he would play the the music and his bandmates were like, "What is this? This is great. We love this." and he was like, "No, no, no, no. It's not ready. It's not ready. I don't want" And
[40:18]eventually they persuaded him to sing the song that we all now know as the the Wreck of the Edund Fitzgerald. It is 29
[40:27]28 twoline stanzas. There's no guitar solo. There's no hook. There's no bridge. It is a durge. >> And it was it became the number two hit
[40:37]when it came out in 1976 right after Tonight's the Night. [laughter] A very, very different song. from Rod Story. Yes. >> And those of us who have heard the wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald, we do not
[40:49]forget it. >> You can't forget unforgettable song. And those who suffered as a result of that disaster embraced the song, embraced Gordon Lightoot for years afterward, >> hugely a lot of them were resistant to
[40:59]the idea of it. As you know, Gordon Lightoot himself was did not want to commercialize the song. He didn't want to exploit the song and many of the families did not want to listen to it. And when they did, they they they felt
[41:11]that song in their bones. They knew that what he had done was that he had created a memorial that was not made of stone but that was made out of music. >> And this is a famous vessel that
[41:21]trafficked these waters frequently. >> It was >> with a experienced crew >> experienced massive terrible set of circumstances bring it down.
[41:32]>> Storm of the century. Um and there were there were problems with how these these great freighters traversed the Great Lakes. This ship was carrying 26,000
[41:41]tons. It's a little hard to just imagine that amount of 26,000 tons of iron ore pellets destined to for blast furnaces. And the ship was only 75 ft wide in
[41:53]order to fit through the locks that separate the upper Great Lakes from the lower Great Lakes. And the thing just I mean we don't know exactly what happened. That's part of the mystique of the Edmond Fitzgerald. But it was found
[42:03]in two pieces. It was facing hurricane gale winds. The waves were computer modeling tells us maybe 60 feet high. It
[42:13]was hitting that boat like two train engines every 4 to 8 seconds. It could not it could not bear what it was facing. >> And there is something I've learned that
[42:24]I didn't know that freshwater waves and freshwater high seas on a great lake can be worse than the ocean. >> Which is pretty amazing, isn't it? The salt weighs the waves down and the salt
[42:35]the lack of salt water can make these waves very um it's they're lighter, they're more erratic, they're ferocious and they're harder to predict and you know there a sea can be glass in the
[42:45]morning and then you know the an unbelievable storm just hours later >> very quickly. I can only imagine if Gordon Lightoot had gone to his record company and said here's what I've got in
[42:56]mind and been like you are not going to do that song. >> Absolutely. There's no way they could have predicted this would be a hit or that we would be talking about it on television 50 years later.
[43:07]>> It is the power of art. It's the power of art to memorialize, recognize, hold up to the light, even things that are tragic and do so in a way that is compassionate, memorable, lyrical,
[43:18]beautiful. It just is. It's all those things. Edi, thank you so much for coming in. >> Thank you. >> Happy Friday, everyone. This is the takeout. You know where we are. Weeks end. I want to say it with [music]
[43:29]intensity. Relentlessly curious, reliably civil, and occasionally clever. The Daily Report starts now.