[0:00]Donald Trump has a Jeffrey Epstein problem that it seems won't go away. The White House want it to go away. They want to stop talking about the dead convicted sex offender. But plenty of
[0:10]Republicans do want to talk about him still and do want the White House to do what it said it once would and release all the information it has on Epstein.
[0:20]Welcome to Americ. [Music] Hello, it's Anthony in the Washington DC
[0:32]bureau of BBC News. >> And it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of American, England. And it's just the two of us and I should say right at the beginning because events move so fast, don't they? That it's 10
[0:41]to 3 in the afternoon on Wednesday here in London. And not only do things move fast in the big worldwide world, they also move fast of course in politics,
[0:53]don't they, Anthony? We've got this phrase in Britain, a week is a long time in politics. the previous British prime minister came up with it. It's certainly a long time in American politics at the
[1:02]moment and specifically with regard to Jeffrey Epstein. So this is what Donald Trump said to a reporter last week who tried to ask Pam Bondi, Pam Bondi being
[1:13]the attorney general, a question about the Epstein files. >> Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? This guy's been talked about for years. You're asking we have Texas,
[1:24]we have this, we have all of the things, >> and are people still talking about this guy, this creep? >> That is unbelievable. Do you want to waste the time and do you
[1:35]feel like answering? >> I I don't mind answering. >> I mean, I can't believe you're asking a question on Epstein at a time like this where we're having some of the greatest success and and also tragedy with what
[1:47]happened in Texas. It just seems uh like a desecration. But you go ahead. >> Well, all right. Uh, this though is what he said to reporters on Tuesday of this
[1:57]week on the grounds of the White House. >> I would say that, you know, these files were made up by Comey. They were made up by Obama. They were made up by the Biden. You know, uh, we and we went
[2:08]through years of that with the Russia Russia Russia hoax with all of the different things that we had to go through. We've gone through years of it. But she's handled it very well and it's
[2:19]going to be up to her. Whatever she thinks is credible, she should release. Yeah. >> Ah, she should release. She being Pam Bondi. And then later on that same day,
[2:30]he reverted back to questioning why anyone should care at all about Jeffrey Epstein. >> Mr. President, I know you've urged people to move on, but I'm curious, why do you think your supporters in
[2:40]particular have been so interested in the Epstein story, so upset about how it's been handled? Why do you think that is? uh why they would be so interested. He's dead for a long time. Uh he was
[2:52]never a big factor in terms of life. Uh I don't understand what the interest or what the fascination is. I really don't. And the credible information's been
[3:03]given. Don't forget we went through years of the Mueller witch hunt and all of the different things, the Steel Dossier, which was all fake. All that information was fake. But I don't
[3:14]understand why the Jeffrey Epste would be of interest to anybody. It's pretty boring stuff. It's sorted, but it's boring. And I don't understand why it
[3:24]keeps going. Uh I I think really only pretty bad people, including fake news, want to keep something like like that going. >> Uh Anthony, your take?
[3:35]>> Uh well, obviously Donald Trump is trying to change the subject, and he's not doing a very good job of it. We talk about how Donald Trump can drive the news cycle and that that's one of his superpowers. Uh but here he's telling
[3:47]people there's nothing to see here. Move on. And they're not moving on. And and it's because that this is something that Donald Trump's base has been fixated on
[3:56]for years. Uh and that Donald Trump and those around him have promised there'd be some sort of a big revelation. And now they've come out and said, "Actually, there's nothing there. Uh
[4:06]let's move on." and and and I think that's why it's been such a challenge for Trump and clearly he is getting frustrated. >> Yeah. A and significant people in the
[4:15]party are not letting him get away with it, are they? So, and not just on the kind of extremes of the party. So, Marjorie Taylor Green um you might expect to be in that camp, the very kind
[4:27]of wildeyed congresswoman, if that's a reasonable description of her. She might not accept it, but there we go. Um, Speaker Mike Johnson though, who's not wildeyed at all, very much a Trump
[4:38]supporter, but very much someone who marshals the wider party, certainly the wider congressional party. They've both called for transparency, haven't they? This word transparency in separate uh
[4:49]interviews with the commentator Benny Johnson. Uh, and that's something Marjorie Taylor Green repeated to CNN, CNN's Manu Raju yesterday. This is something that's been talked about uh by
[5:00]many people serving in the administration, myself and and many others uh on the right and the left of of there needing to be transparency of the rich and powerful elites that were
[5:12]in his circle while he was um just one of the worst serial uh abusers of of young women. It has been um a very
[5:23]serious situation for the administration um and a lot of people in MAGA. they they really want to know more information about the people uh that were involved uh with Jeffrey Epstein
[5:34]and is there a blackmail list and are there foreign countries governments involved and there's nothing wrong with people continuing to ask that >> and I think that's the challenge here for Donald Trump is that as as you heard from Marjorie Taylor Green there this
[5:46]cuts against one of the central messages of Donald Trump's political identity and that is that the rich and powerful are taking advantage of this country that they're looking out for themselves And
[5:57]it is Donald Trump who is on the side of the little guy, the outsiders, the people who aren't rich in power, fold the people who aren't part of the elite. Uh and he's pulling back the curtain and
[6:07]revealing their excesses and he's fighting for uh these the little guy. And and here is a case now where it looks at least to some people uh that
[6:18]Donald Trump isn't isn't pulling back the curtain. He's part of the cover up and he has something to hide. And while you know there's not any kind of substance that we've seen that ties
[6:29]Donald Trump to Epstein or that there is an Epstein client list and any indication that if there were Donald Trump was on it. Uh it's still it's
[6:39]difficult for Trump to dispel and it also puts him in the unfortunate or the difficult position of trying to convince his supporters that the rich and powerful in this case don't have
[6:51]anything to hide. >> Yeah. And when you say his supporters, I think the really interesting point is that it is not just the kind of classic conspiracy theorists. It's not just people who think that the moon landings
[7:02]were faked or that COVID didn't exist or whatever. It's a wider group of people and we've had a fascinating question about that from Andy in Eastborne. Let's let's play it. I've been listening to
[7:13]America since before Trump's first presidency and find it very insightful. I was however surprised when I heard the episode about Jeffrey Epstein causing a MAGA rift. You seem to imply that Trump being involved with anything Epstein
[7:25]related is a conspiracy theory rather like the JFK being killed or the moonlanding hoax. I'm not generally a conspiracy theory believer. But I think there's a lot more smoke or fact around
[7:36]the fact that Trump is likely to be named somewhere in the Epsom recordings than not. And the reason I think Andy is dead right is not necessarily what he says about Donald Trump, but I absolutely agree with his his
[7:48]implication, which is that you do not have to be an outand-out conspiracy theorist in order to believe that there is something very fishy about the whole
[7:58]Epstein business and what happened to him and all the details of the case. remember the court case against it which never came to anything because there wasn't a court case against him because he was found dead in prison apparently
[8:09]by suicide. So that there is there is this kind of interesting it seems to me difference and really politically relevant difference between the kind of
[8:20]crazed conspiracy theorists and a much wider group of people and Anthony you see this don't you in the kind of coalition of people who are uneasy now about it all being put to bed and and
[8:31]the subject being changed. You look at some of the podcasters, kind of Trump adjacent podcasters, not necessarily in with him, but people who've been interested in him in the past, kind of saying, "And a second, we didn't go for
[8:43]this. We didn't vote for this. We we thought when you said you were going to open up, you know, the deep state and you were going to do all the things that you were going to do and be transparent about government." We kind of took you
[8:54]at your word and we're pretty disappointed now that you don't seem to be doing that. And it I don't know what you think, Anthony. It just seems to me that the political danger for Trump, it's not from the wild the the the the
[9:06]wild extremes. It's from people, you know, even probably who regard themselves actually as independents and and liked him and now feel pretty hacked off.
[9:17]>> Yeah. There's a poll that came out today uh and 80% of the public said that there needed to be more revelations, needed to be full disclosure uh of any documents
[9:27]on Epstein that the federal government has. I mean, if you can get 80% of the American public to agree on anything, that is a pretty remarkable feat >> and a frightening one for the Trump people.
[9:38]>> Yeah. I mean, it should be frightening. And, you know, we also should say that, you know, while there is no evidence linking Donald Trump to any of these allegations surrounding Jeffrey Epstein.
[9:48]Uh there is evidence linking the two men. I mean, they both were from uh Palm Beach, South Florida. They both traveled in the same social circles. There's a famous famous photograph that gets
[9:59]circulated all all the time now of Donald Trump and and Epstein kind of standing shouldertosh shoulder smiling. There's a video of the two men together. Michael Wolf, who's an American journalist who uh you know, some people
[10:11]say is a sensationalist and and they've questioned some of his uh some of his reporting, but he had lengthy conversations with Jeffrey Epstein uh in
[10:21]2018, I think it was, uh where Epstein told him on recordings about what he said was a a close relationship he had with Donald Trump dating back to the
[10:31]1980s. So I there are data points that show that you know these these two people had contact and and that when you start drawing conclusions and people
[10:41]making uh surmising uh the relationships and extrapolating from that then you get to where these these conspiracy theories start to pop up. But certainly anything
[10:51]that Donald Trump has done over the past week uh you know hasn't been successful in downplaying that relationship. If anything it's raised new questions. >> Yeah. and and the questions of course
[11:02]about Donald Trump but also more widely questions and this kind of goes doesn't it to the whole politics of MAGA. It's questions about a whole group of people,
[11:13]including senior Democrats, they believe, who have kind of lorded it over the nation and been able to get away with stuff, including horrible stuff,
[11:22]criminal stuff that they, the ordinary people, um, have have not had any kind of way of stopping or window on. And it's that kind of sense, isn't it? that
[11:33]sense of of the outsiders taking control of Washington that was so much of the power behind Trump and if they then get told there's nothing to see here um you
[11:44]you could understand why politically it it doesn't work for him does it >> yeah there there was someone who had had three possible explanations for how
[11:53]Trump handled uh this and the first one uh is that uh they they came into this knowing that there wasn't anything to
[12:03]this uh to the Epstein uh files and they they were lying about it in order to gain political advantage. uh two that they came into this thinking that there
[12:14]was something to the Epstein files, but once they got into government and looked into it, uh there was nothing there or they came into this taking advantage of of the the hubbub surrounding Epstein,
[12:26]they got into power, found out that there was something there, and they're covering all of this up. And and all three of those scenarios aren't exactly good for Donald Trump. I mean, even in
[12:36]the best case scenario, they were misleading people and now they uh they were kind of trafficking in conspiracy theories and now they they found out that that that there's nothing to them and trying to explain that. That's the
[12:47]most innocent explanation for this. And it's still not one that is politically beneficial to Trump. >> No, I mean, it's staggeringly politically inept, isn't it, to to march people up a hill and then to have
[12:58]nothing when you get to the top of it. And then you get to people like the FBI director Cash Patel, the deputy director, this guy Dan Bonino, who we were understanding was maybe going to
[13:09]resign because they had been absolutely in the forefront of all of this stuff and they kind of drove them into the FBI. Um, and and suddenly they're there and Pam Bondi saying there's nothing to
[13:20]see and their supporters are saying, "Hang on a second, you're our guys. What's what's going on?" has left them in really difficult positions even if they don't resign. >> Yeah. And Pam Bombi Bondi definitely
[13:32]mishandled this. I mean, she said at one point uh to the gathered press that she had the files on her desk and was was reviewing them, implying even that she
[13:41]had Epstein's client list on on her desk and she later had to walk that back and she meant just the FBI report and she was looking into, you know, all of the report on what they had and didn't have. But when she said that before the
[13:53]cameras, it sounded pretty definitive like there was going to be a big revelation soon. And of course, when there wasn't, that's when you had people on the outside, people in in kind of the
[14:03]right right-wing ecosystems up in arms. And you had people in the FBI, uh, who, as you mentioned, Dan Bino and Cash Patel, who are who who have trafficked and conspiracy theories, who who do
[14:14]think that there's a a leaked cabal that is running this country and is out to get people. had them running four square into Pam Bondi and creating this kind of
[14:24]a conflict between Donald Trump's own Justice Department and the FBI which is uh a an agency underneath the Justice Department and answerable to Pam Bondi.
[14:35]If they stay in post, okay, and if they do kind of successfully push it all off the news agenda, and Donald Trump is very good at that, as we know, to our cost, something else could well come up
[14:46]by the time people are listening to this to this episode. Um, if they manage to do all of that, does it then die a death politically
[14:55]or does it kind of go into obeyance and come back to bite them in the midterms and indeed in the gubernatorial elections later this year? in this sense
[15:05]that a lot of MAGA people just think, "Oh, what the heck?" You know, we don't care anymore. We're not going to be that interested in voting. We thought we we were going to get something out of it. We're not going to get something out of
[15:17]it. The deep state's still there. We're just not going to bother. And and that in a way, it obviously doesn't affect Donald Trump personally. He's never going to be up for election again, but it would affect Republican candidates. And potentially, I would
[15:29]have thought quite badly if it suppresses turnout. >> Yeah, it might. and and there's questions about whether Donald Trump's base will turn out when Donald Trump isn't on the ballot anyway. I mean, we
[15:38]saw in 2018 in the midterm elections and Donald Trump's first term, uh, Democrats did really well because with the exception of Florida, Donald Trump's base didn't turn out at all. Uh, in
[15:50]2020, we saw Donald Bas Donald Trump's base turn out and and he nearly came from behind to beat Joe Biden. And then 2022, Donald Trump not on the ballot and Democrats actually overperformed
[16:00]expectations. So, I mean, there is already this existing trend that it's hard to motivate Trump supporters when he's not on the ballot. Now, add in the fact that they could be disaffected,
[16:10]that they could be frustrated uh with what's happening, and this is uh, you know, one of the data points that kind of lends those frustrations. I think Republicans, you know, very much have to
[16:21]be worried. Now, whether anything comes of this, we have to look at what Republicans are saying and what Republicans are doing. And while we're hearing from Mike Johnson, the speaker of the house, calling for, you know,
[16:32]full disclosure and and that these files need to come out, what Johnson is doing behind the scenes is pushing down any kind of an uprising within his own ranks. Uh squatchching Democratic
[16:43]attempts to force Epstein files, whatever is left of them, to be uh revealed. And Republicans by and large, with a few notable exceptions, are falling in line behind him. So, while
[16:55]they're they're talking about how this needs to come out in the public uh domain, this needs to be revealed, they're not voting that way. They're voting to protect Donald Trump. And they are, you know, still in in a variety of
[17:06]other instances, voting with Donald Trump. We're not seeing the kind of big break that you would suspect if Donald Trump's political influence, at least within the Republican party and at least
[17:16]within Republicans in Congress, was starting to wayne. >> It's worth saying, isn't it? They have released something. So there are there are was it 11 hours of surveillance
[17:25]footage from the camera that was um near Epstein's Manhattan jail cell. This is the jail cell where he was found dead. And that was meant to address some of
[17:36]the theories about whether or not he killed himself or whether perhaps he was murdered. But Anthony, that didn't go according to plan either. >> Yeah, even even that raised more questions than it answered. And there
[17:48]was a missing minute apparently right at midnight. And the way uh Pam Bondi explained is that that's when the the video resets and so there's always a missing minute. I haven't seen whether
[17:59]they've they've substantiated that by showing other nights tapes in a missing minute. But also, Wired magazine has done uh a a some research, some
[18:08]investigation of the metadata behind the the tape that uh the Justice Department released and found that it had been manipulated in some way and maybe manipulated in an innocent sort of way
[18:19]where uh things were kind of respplaced together in order to form one video video file instead of multiple video files. But still, I mean, that again raises concerns and and they're actually
[18:29]said that maybe there's more than a minute uh of missing time. Maybe there's a couple of minutes of missing time because of what they're analyzing from this video file. So, uh you would think
[18:40]that they would know that all of this would be scrutinized very closely and that any kind of changes would, you know, raise suspicions among people who are already suspecting of some kind of a
[18:50]cover up. Uh and yet here they go throwing this out there uh in a way that uh that is just going to stoke the fires. You were saying, Anthony, Congress at the moment pretty still
[19:01]pliant and still very much in in the Trump uh orbit, at least Republicans in in the House particularly. You do wonder, don't you, what happens after
[19:11]the midterms if the Democrats, as is pretty widely expected, manage to get back into the majority into the House and call hearings, etc., want to keep
[19:23]pressing this on. And we've had um an email, another um very good question I thought from Don who writes, "Given Musk's comments on Trump being in the
[19:34]Epstein file, surely the president now needs to release them to prove his innocence. If he doesn't, is there a mechanism for Congress, etc. to have them released as surely it's in the
[19:44]public interest to know how involved Trump is uh in any wrongdoing uh at the time? I mean, they could hold hearings, couldn't they, Anthony? And presumably they could subpoena all sorts of people. I mean, it could be quite a nuisance if
[19:56]if only that for the Republicans. >> It could definitely be and and as we're seeing already, Democrats are are spelling an opportunity here and they're they don't have the power right now to
[20:07]really do anything. But, you know, come a year from January, if the story is still bouncing around. Or even if it's not, they want to dust it off and and use it again because clearly it makes Donald Trump uncomfortable, they could
[20:18]they could do that and they could subpoena all of these different files and get into legal battles over what the Justice Department will and will not release. they could subpoena Gelain uh
[20:28]Maxwell uh the uh the the partner of Jeffrey Epstein uh and force her to testify which uh you know could be very embarrassing if she starts talking about
[20:39]uh what she knows and her relationships with Donald Trump because again she was one of the people in that photograph with Jeffrey Epstein that we see bouncing around and Donald Trump that we see bouncing around uh all over the
[20:50]place. Uh they could they could dig further and see where it leads. I mean, a lot of these times it's not the what they what's right there on the surface that proves embarrassing in one of these kind of open-ended investigations. It's
[21:02]what they find by digging a little bit or the kind of uh denials that turn into cover-ups that become the big scandal as you know. I mean, it's that that Richard Nixon line from the Richard Nixon
[21:12]Watergate hearings. It's not the it's not the crime, it's the cover up. And you know, Donald Trump is acting like he's, as I mentioned, acting like he wants to hide something that he doesn't want kind of a full disclosure. And uh
[21:24]if that's the case, then then Democrats could be able to make this a real headache for Trump uh in 2027 and 2028. >> Well, yeah, but with assistance from
[21:34]from Musk. I mean, in that email from Don, he he he makes the point, he's right, um that that Musk has said that Trump is in these Epstein files, which
[21:45]may or may not exist. Just to remind people that post on X, it was um feels like a long time ago. It was probably It was only last month actually, wasn't it? But time to drop the really big bomb. He
[21:55]said, "Donald Trump is in the Epstein files. That is the real reason they've not been made public. Have a nice day, DJT." Now, since then, they've kind of slightly made up, haven't they? But if
[22:07]the Democrats want to keep going and if he's sticking his money um Musk sticking his money behind a third party or third
[22:16]party candidates in some key places and that this is one of the things they're running on. I mean it's chaos, isn't it? >> He deleted that post uh and and then
[22:27]posted something else uh more recently about the Epstein files. uh you know Elon Musk has made accusations of pedophilia not at Donald Trump but at other people in the past and actually
[22:39]there is this kind of undercurrent of concern about pedophilia rings. There was that big instance of the the pizza parlor here in Washington DC where uh one conspiracy theorist showed up
[22:50]convinced that there was a basement in this Comet Comet pizza parlor and that uh Democrats were running a pedophilia ring out of that basement. Of course, there was no basement and uh and no
[23:02]pedophilia ring, but but this is this is kind of an ongoing thread. And so honest, they found an honest to god example of a pedophile who did have, you know, honest to God connections to rich and powerful people in this country. So,
[23:13]it's I guess it's not surprising that this story isn't going away and that they've latched on to this uh even if it does potentially point towards one of their own and and you know, and Donald
[23:24]Trump, you know, the central figure in their movement. >> So, what do the Democrats do? You mentioned them. Let's hear what they're saying at the moment. This is the House Minority Leader Hacking Jeff uh weighing in at the beginning of the week. This
[23:36]was Monday. >> The American people deserve to know the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth as it relates to this whole sorted Jeffrey Epstein matter. Democrats
[23:47]didn't put the Jeffrey Epstein thing into the public domain. This was a conspiracy that Donald Trump, Pam Bondi, and these MAGA extremists have been fanning the flames of for the last
[23:58]several years, and now the chickens are coming home to roost. >> I sense a certain amount of shenan that I mean, you know, we didn't do this, but you know, you're making your bed and now you got to sleep in it.
[24:10]>> Yeah. And and which presumably is the right way to go. And the Democrats will be thinking about this behind the scenes, won't they? the extent to which they push it or the extent they just kind of let the Republicans have their
[24:21]argument without getting involved. And you'd think that quite a few of the Democrats, perhaps the savier ones, particularly in Congress, would be saying to their pals who want to really
[24:32]go with it. No, just stay out of it. Let this be a Republican fight. >> Yeah. And I I think, you know, Donald Trump wants nothing more than to make
[24:42]this, you know, a Democrat versus Republican fight. that this is a democratic conspiracy to get him. We heard a little bit of that in the clip uh that we heard earlier and he actually
[24:52]just posted a message on Truth Social going even farther saying that it was the the radical left Democrat who have hit per again with the Epstein allegations and then tying it to all of
[25:02]the other hoaxes that he said were perpetrated against him by Democrats including uh the the steel dossier uh Hunter Biden's laptop uh Russia Russia
[25:14]Russia you know crooked Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential election, all of that. He's kind of lumping together wants his supporters and everyone else to view this latest thing
[25:24]as just the latest example of of that uh hoax that was out to get Donald Trump because then it rallies his supporters around him. It's us against them. The
[25:35]Democrats are out to get us. They've done it before in the past. They're doing it again. Whereas the Democrats, I think you're right, if they're smart, they step back. They don't make it their crusade. They let the Republicans kind
[25:46]of tear themselves apart on this. >> Yeah. And you listen to people like Steve Bannon, the the MAGA um uh fan who
[25:56]has his own very kind of direct uh pathway to the MAGA faithful, his own podcast, and he makes speeches and he's very much a big figure. There is of
[26:08]course nothing to do with the White House, outside the White House now, but you know, he doesn't think it's about the Democrats. He doesn't buy this. These people are not buying it. I suppose that's the point, Anthony. When
[26:18]when um the the Trump White House tries to say, "This is the Democrats make a great fuss about this. Take no notice." They really are not buying it. They really genuinely think that there is
[26:29]something to see here. And it's linked to all the other theories they have about the deep state and the CIA's involvement in a lot of stuff in the past. You know, a lot of them still
[26:39]think that the CIA bumped off JFK uh back in the 60s and it kind of it all that that doesn't come that's not a political Democratic party attack on the
[26:51]White House. It is it is the genuine beliefs of a lot of people who are natural Trump supporters. And that it seems to me is why this is potentially I mean are we saying it's the biggest
[27:03]hurdle that the Trump White House has has faced since he was elected? I think we might be, might we? >> I mean, yeah, I it's, you know, we we talked about all of these other big hurdles and and you know, there have
[27:14]been, you know, the controversies around Signalgate, that was a big thing at the time and and uh, you know, Donald Trump launching missiles uh, against uh, Iran, that was a big thing at a time and those
[27:25]all have kind of blown over. So, you know, I'm reluctant to say this is this is the one this is the one that's really going to to cut through. But it is a very real challenge for Donald Trump because it's a challenge within his own
[27:36]ranks. Uh and and I don't know how he waves a wand and makes it go away because you know if you say there's nothing there then when his base says
[27:47]well prove it. How do you prove there's nothing there? It's like oh we've released everything. Have you? It's you're trying to prove a negative. Uh and and that is as we know really really difficult to do particularly when you're
[27:59]predisposed to think that there's some sort of a cover up and the fact that nothing has come out yet is just a more evidence of the fact that they have something to hide and they're just doing a really good job of protecting it.
[28:10]>> Okay. And um before we go I mean we should say there may be all sorts of things that derail this theory of mine at least that is it is a really serious issue for the Trump administration. And
[28:22]who knows, maybe they'll be able to bat it away. But it just seems to me that longer term that the suspicions about Epstein that are in a way a signifier of
[28:33]something much wider that Trump supporters tend to think about government. If you don't manage to put that to bed, then you you pose yourself a considerable problem. And that's all we got time for today. You can listen to
[28:44]any episode of Americas wherever you get your podcasts. For the time being from me, bye-bye. [Music]