[0:00]I must say I saw one of your Instagram feeds, Mel, where you had just come out of reading the Epstein files. You were quite emotional during that. It
[0:11]It seemed to affect you deeply. What was it that affected you so much? >> I think that for me, personally,
[0:20]to read the first-hand accounts of the violence that was committed against survivors and detailed descriptions of the assaults that happened to them by both
[0:32]Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell was truly chilling and dark. >> Yes, that's right. You say it's really dark dark stuff. How confronting did you
[0:42]find it? >> Yeah, I mean, I think in particular, you know, there are assault allegations in the unredacted files, which have never been prosecuted,
[0:53]including one that dates back to 1993, in which a man actually claims that he met Jeffrey Epstein, was brought to the ranch, he was drugged, and he describes
[1:03]in detail a scene in which multiple young men were raped at the ranch in front of him after he was drugged. >> You hear about Jeffrey Epstein's uh penchant for
[1:14]for minors um and for young women, but not men. We haven't heard that before. >> Yeah, I mean, Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell were serial abusers.
[1:25]So, they really were super predators, and it's clear that they This was just how they live their lives. >> Just getting back to the bodies buried near the ranch,
[1:36]what uh what else do you know? Do you have Do we have any idea of the age of these girls, where they came from, their
[1:46]names, who they are? >> So, at this particular moment, we don't have additional information about
[1:54]whether or not murders, burials, and other deaths happened at the property. There's a lot of um
[2:05]stories, there's a lot of unsubstantiated um evidence out there, but what I can tell you is that after the Epstein Files Transparency Act was passed by Congress,
[2:17]the many many files that were released ultimately led the state of New Mexico to pass this bipartisan truth commission, and our state attorney general and Department of Justice
[2:29]reopened a criminal case that the federal government had asked them to close in 2019. And part of what is very strange about this case is why did the
[2:38]federal DOJ ask New Mexico to close its criminal case? And among the allegations that were already reported to both the state of New Mexico and the FBI was a
[2:49]tip that had come into a local radio station in which a man claimed that he had video evidence of a sexual assault incident in which two Eastern European
[3:00]women who were flown into New Mexico were strangled during a sex act and buried on the property. Other than that email, we don't have other evidence, but
[3:10]after it was revealed and we reviewed the unredacted files, uh New Mexico took this very very seriously. New Mexico's DOJ reopened its criminal investigation. The new owner
[3:22]allowed New Mexico DOJ to search the property. They have at this time conducted a complete and thorough investigation physically of the
[3:32]property, including imaging of all 7,500 acres of the property. They're right now doing a technical analysis of that
[3:41]imaging data to understand if it reveals anything. One of the things that's very odd is that there was still letters, there was handwritten documents, there were books, there were other things that
[3:53]were still on the property. >> And is it believed that that is evidence that could lead to further prosecutions? >> Well, what I can tell you is that New
[4:03]Mexico's Department of Justice is deeply committed to turning the Epstein files into Epstein trials, and they've been very clear about this. We know that there are crimes that were committed,
[4:15]that were reported, and in fact, the prosecution of Ghislaine Maxwell that happened in federal courts uh is a lot of the substantiating evidence
[4:27]that could be used to prosecute her in state court in New Mexico because we know that she also violated New Mexico state statutes both through her own uh
[4:37]sexual assault and trafficking and grooming, but also there are scores of other individuals who are named in the DOJ files that were co-conspirators that
[4:49]enabled trafficking and grooming. There are scores of individuals who committed acts of sexual assault and rape, and our DOJ is investigating all leads. They're looking at whether the statute of
[5:00]limitations allows them to prosecute those crimes in New Mexico state courts, and even if there are individuals who don't live in New Mexico who were accused of rape and sexual assault in
[5:12]New Mexico, bringing them back and trying them in New Mexico, and I can tell you unequivocally, there are allegations against well-known figures uh across the country and the world who
[5:24]were believed to have committed acts of uh sexual assault in New Mexico. [ __ ] >> Would you like to name them? >> Uh there are well-known national figures
[5:33]including both in the legal world as well as the scientific world who traveled to New Mexico, and all of that information is in the files, but
[5:44]we want to make sure that due process is fo- is followed and New Mexico is going to follow every possible lead. And I think at this time in order to protect the integrity of those
[5:55]investigations, I want to make sure that they have the space to conduct those investigations. But certainly, there are known individuals that are in the files who
[6:05]have been accused of sexual misconduct in New Mexico, as well as trafficking. And many of the co-conspirators who US Department of
[6:16]Justice chose not to prosecute in either the Epstein case because he died. And then in the Ghislaine Maxwell case, certainly are well documented as having
[6:28]committed crimes in New Mexico. And these are many of the people who were on the payroll or being otherwise paid by Jeffrey Epstein to recruit and traffic women to him.
[6:39]>> And And I guess what you were saying is we're coming off to you. >> We are. >> So, if there are the charges for Ghislaine Maxwell at a state level, what would what would that mean in terms of
[6:50]penalties? >> At this time, I think New Mexico's AG and Department of Justice is looking at all of the cases where they have evidence to pursue an investigation
[7:01]under state law. And a lot of it will, as I mentioned, really depend on where the evidence is, what the statutes are
[7:11]under which they might prosecute, and what the statute of limitations allows in terms of prosecution. But one of the things that the Truth Commission is seeking to do, which is a legislative
[7:22]forum, it's a bipartisan legislative forum, is to, in addition, collect evidence to subpoena documents and individuals to fill out the story and
[7:32]evidentiary background. It's also to identify if there are legal loopholes that would otherwise prevent prosecution. So, for example, if there
[7:43]was a statute of limitations that would prevent us to prosecute a certain case based on existing statute that that could be extended. And there's a bill that our
[7:54]state legislature tried to pass this last session to extend civil liability in cases of sexual assault, which frankly predated the current chapter around Epstein. It It's just something
[8:06]that we had been looking at, but I think it has a particularly important salience in this moment because especially on the federal level, the
[8:16]civil system is the primary way where so many survivors have been able to tell their stories, and ultimately that is what led to the criminal litigation against Ghislaine Maxwell and her
[8:28]ultimate prosecution. >> Yes, I mean this the civil actions have have caught the headlines, but so has the fact that Ghislaine Maxwell is the only one behind bars. You know,
[8:38]there there is an outcry, isn't there? You know, where are these co-conspirators? Where are the men that these young people have been trafficked to?
[8:48]>> Right. Well, and let me just be clear. Ghislaine Maxwell deserves to be behind bars. She is not only a co-conspirator, she was not only a recruiter and
[8:59]groomer, she herself committed acts of sexual assault. And so, I know there has been discourse out there about why is a woman being punished? Well, she's because she's a sexual predator. That's
[9:10]why she's being punished. It's not She was not an innocent individual in this ring. In fact, she was right at the center of it. And in fact, many of these women would not have felt safe to have
[9:21]even been around Jeffrey Epstein had it not been for her. So, she's exactly where she should be, which is behind bars. Uh but I think that the survivors feel
[9:32]strongly that there are other co-conspirators, both women and men. There are these women that were part of that recruitment and the
[9:43]payment, the infrastructure behind all of this. But there are also men who were co-conspirators who enabled Epstein to be Epstein. And the lawyers, the
[9:54]accountants, and the people who committed acts of fraud, intimidation, financial crimes, and trafficking that were all a part of this, not to mention
[10:05]the networks of modeling agencies, for example, owned by Jean-Luc Brunel out of Paris, and potentially other modeling agencies that were feeding women to
[10:16]Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. But I think the one piece of this story that is so egregious to people all across the world is that there are
[10:25]rapists who have never been investigated and tried and convicted. And their names are in the files. They are well known.
[10:35]They are in the FBI and DOJ's correspondence about this case. They are in public slideshows. They have been released to the press. They have been read on the House floor. And still, the
[10:47]US Department of Justice is not only failing to investigate these individuals, they're refusing to. In fact, you have the now acting AG, Todd
[10:56]Blanche, saying, "Case closed. We're not going to investigate this, and we're not going to pursue conviction of any of these individuals who we know, based on the many statements that are in the
[11:08]files, have been alleged to have committed acts of sexual violence against women." >> And certainly deserve investigation. So, why not? >> I mean, that is the core of this entire
[11:19]case. I think why Why has the world been captured by this case in addition to, obviously, the high-profile names, the powerful people
[11:31]that were a of the Epstein class, but at the heart of this is why were none of them ever convicted? And it's because what it reveals, what this case reveals
[11:42]is that this is a system that is built for the rich and powerful to do whatever they want, or at least to make them feel like they can do whatever they want, whether that's breaking laws, evading
[11:52]justice, taking advantage of young women and men, and basically using the world as their personal playground without any consequences. And I think the last 30
[12:04]years of this case have borne that out. Both Democratic and Republican administrations, Department of Justices, and
[12:13]federal law enforcement have failed to investigate and prosecute these crimes and it basically have allowed more than a thousand women to have been victimized
[12:24]by super predators without any consequences. And so I think part of why people continue to be drawn to this case is not only because it implicates high-profile
[12:35]figures like media stars, tech giants, and the President of the United States, and a prince, it's because these people were never held accountable and they
[12:45]took advantage of everyday working people and promised them things and then discarded them and I think this is a real reckoning moment for the United
[12:56]States, it's a reckoning moment for our society, it's a reckoning moment for our world that abuse of power, that abuse of
[13:06]women, and that abuse of money to continue to rule our political culture in this country or this world anymore. >> And New Mexico seems to be taking that
[13:17]stand and doing it alone, independently. >> Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, one of the things that's unique about New Mexico is that we are only the second
[13:28]state in the history of the United States to elect a female majority legislature. And that matters, right? Because I think, and you see this here
[13:38]in Congress, while we have great male allies who've been really wonderful on this issue, including people like Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie, it has been the women of Congress that have
[13:49]connected with the survivors, that have lifted up their stories, and continued to fight relentlessly for justice that is centered on the survivors here in
[13:58]Congress. And in New Mexico, it was our state legislators, it was State House Representative Andrea Romero and State House Representative Marianita Anaya,
[14:09]who said, "You know what? We're going to pursue this. We're going to put into place the legal mechanisms, and we're going to force this investigation and this truth commission." And I think when
[14:20]they first launched this effort, people didn't know what to make of it and what it would produce, but it took the fearlessness
[14:29]of women who believed that other women deserve justice to make it a reality. And that's exactly what they're doing in New Mexico. >> So, the search of the property has
[14:41]wrapped up. Can you say whether evidence of bodies being buried there has been found? >> I have not been briefed on that specific
[14:51]matter, and so I would highly recommend speaking to the uh New Mexico Department of Justice. As I understand at the current moment, they are analyzing the
[15:02]visual evidence from the drone imaging that they took of the property. Um I I don't believe that they found any physical remains of any kind, but uh but
[15:13]they're still analyzing the visual evidence that they collected via drones. If you think about it, especially, you know, when you hear the stories, uh many of which, you know, there's
[15:25]hundreds of them of women particularly from Eastern Europe who were brought on Jeffrey Epstein's plane, told they were going to have a opportunity to
[15:35]apply to be a Victoria's Secret model or to get into the New York modeling world or they were going to be um put in front of a, you know, Miss America contest contest and then they
[15:46]were suddenly taken to Epstein's Island for a weekend party or they were taken to New Mexico. Um and then uh you know, terrible things happened to them and there's certainly hundreds of
[15:58]allegations of women who experienced those really dark experiences and so I think we're really dedicated to getting to the bottom of the truth of what happened in New Mexico and on that
[16:09]property. >> In 2019, New Mexico was denied the opportunity to investigate and potentially prosecute abuses.
[16:19]Why did the Feds take it over? >> That is one of the great unanswered questions that our truth commission is trying to get to the bottom of.
[16:28]But I think this also speaks to the larger way in which Jeffrey Epstein operated in these circles of power, how he utilized his relationships with
[16:39]politicians, with local authorities to evade justice and to stop investigations into his criminal conduct. And he very quickly,
[16:49]similar to what he did in Florida and in uh the Virgin Islands, befriended local politicians. He started donating money to local politicians. He started
[17:01]donating money to local law enforcement. He became very close friends with our former governor who's now deceased, Bill Richardson, who he ended up having a
[17:11]many decades relationship with. We've just recently found out that his acting uh attorney in the purchase of that ranch went on to serve as the US
[17:21]attorney in New Mexico. And so his constellation of rich and powerful friends were the apparatus that would have held him accountable and stopped
[17:32]him from committing crimes in New Mexico. And we know that that's what Jeffrey Epstein did everywhere. He had properties, whether it was New York, Florida, the Virgin Islands. So, we don't know the specifics. That's part of
[17:44]what we're investigating at this moment, but it's it's really at the heart of this case. >> But is the suggestion that federal authorities aligned themselves with Jeffrey Epstein
[17:55]to to quash the New Mexican investigation? >> I mean, clearly something happened at the federal level. There is no reason
[18:05]why the federal Department of Justice should have asked New Mexico to stop investigating state crimes. And in fact, the federal DOJ
[18:16]basically asked New Mexico to send over any file case files it had and to stop investigation. They claimed it was duplication. And then those files never saw the light
[18:28]of day again. In fact, even under the current Epstein Files Transparency Act, those files have never been released by the Department of Justice, which is part of how we know that Todd Blanche, Pam
[18:39]Bondi, and the federal administration are breaking the law because they haven't released even New Mexico's files. So, we don't know what transpired
[18:49]in 2019, but clearly there was some sort of collusion between Jeffrey Epstein and the federal government. And that's part of what we're investigating.
[18:59]>> And why? I know I keep asking the same question, but I think it's the question the world has. Why would they do that? >> Why does anyone do anything that breaks
[19:09]the law? Power, money, corruption. I mean, I think that is what the Jeffrey Epstein case is all about. >> The The This is the law.
[19:19]These are the lawmakers. >> Yeah, I mean, I think again, we'll have to know the specifics of what transpired, you know, 2019. It's worth
[19:29]noting Donald Trump was president. It was his first term. Jeffrey Epstein had been incarcerated for a number of months, and
[19:39]the federal DOJ was preparing to try him for his crimes, and he died in jail. It is unclear, even based on the current
[19:48]evidence, whether or not he died of his own hands, based on suicide, which is what the official report said, or whether or not something else happened.
[19:58]In fact, our oversight committee is going to be holding a deposition with the prison guard who was uh there the night that he died. As I
[20:08]understand it, the final communication that killed the the New Mexico investigation happened shortly after his death. But certainly, there is evidence
[20:19]that the feds were interfering with these local cases long before that. And I mean, that goes back to the early 2000s and the federal government's interference in the very first trial
[20:31]that Jeffrey Epstein was scheduled to have in Florida. So, clearly, there's been federal interference in this case in every jurisdiction that Jeffrey Epstein should have been prosecuted in.
[20:43]>> How many victims have been denied justice in New Mexico because of that decision? >> We don't know.
[20:52]It could be dozens. It could be more. I think one of the things that's really challenging is that because Jeffrey Epstein
[21:03]and his property were never investigated thoroughly in New Mexico, We don't have a full accounting of the story, and that's why the work of this New Mexico Truth Commission is so important is to
[21:14]really piece that story together. But again, because of the nature of Jeffrey Epstein's lifestyle, we don't know how many times, for example, his assistants,
[21:24]who are also being abused, were brought to New Mexico. How many young women like Virginia Giuffre and Annie Farmer were brought to New Mexico. How many women like potentially these Eastern European
[21:36]models who were brought to New Mexico were brought there more or less, potentially dozens of local New Mexicans based on stories, tips, and what we know
[21:47]from our sexual assault nonprofit, um experienced at the hands of both him and Ghislaine Maxwell. And so, part of our Truth Commission's efforts are to
[21:57]really try to understand what exactly happened, how many people were abused there, but most importantly, how do we seek justice for them? >> We saw federal agencies raid
[22:09]Epstein's property in Manhattan, the island, Florida. Why was New Mexico ignored? Was it just an oversight? >> We don't know the answer to that
[22:21]question. That is a very good question. I mean, that is one of the things that is particularly peculiar is that the Zorro Ranch was never investigated until
[22:31]just a couple of weeks ago when New Mexico sent our investigators in. Why did they not investigate that property? In fact, the FBI had files dating back
[22:43]to the mid-90s that there were sexual assault accusations. They had, in fact, had an investigation into Virginia Giuffre's allegations against Bill
[22:54]Richardson at the ranch. And when I looked at the uh unredacted files, they had actually brought Bill Richardson in for a
[23:04]investigatory interview. And so the federal government was well aware that there were multiple multiple allegations
[23:13]of rape and abuse on that property. But why they did not raid and investigate that property in the lead up to Epstein's arrest and trial is unclear. Why they didn't investigate the property
[23:25]after his death while they were preparing for Maxwell's trial when it was known that she committed acts of sexual assault on that property. We
[23:34]don't know. And part of the mystery and investigation that we're doing here in Congress and our oversight authority is to get to the bottom of why is DOJ still
[23:44]shielding those records? Why is there no Why is there been no publicly released records through the Epstein Files Transparency Act of why New Mexico was
[23:54]never investigated? It's hard to believe that a property where the FBI and DOJ knows the illegal acts were was
[24:01]happening was not investigated for cause. >> Yeah, I mean they claim that that they couldn't find probable cause
[24:12]to actually raid the place. >> I mean just just alone based on a civil lawsuit which we were just talking about
[24:21]Maria Farmer's FBI testimony and Virginia Giuffre Giuffre's testimony. That's three accounts of sexual assault at that property.
[24:32]And that doesn't even account for the potentially dozens of more that were reported to state, federal, and local authorities. >> Where do you see this ending?
[24:44]>> I think this is going to be a a very long road to justice. I think that these survivors have waited their entire lives to see the
[24:56]federal government and states act and as I have become more involved in investigating this case, it is clear that whether it's the Trump
[25:07]administration, it's the Department of Justice, it's the AG, or Republican members of Congress who are shielding the president, that they are putting up
[25:17]every possible barrier to slow us down and to stop this investigation and as this is what these survivors have
[25:26]faced in some cases for 40 years, I think that it is going to be a long road to justice. In New Mexico, we hope that by the end of this year, we will
[25:36]have a more clear accounting through our truth commission of what happened and be prepared to actually try cases in the court system. We're
[25:47]working with the state of New York to try to get the state of New York to pass a truth commission, but obviously we're dealing with an administration who does not want to see justice in this case and
[25:58]so that means that until Donald Trump is out of office, I don't believe we're going to have a Department of Justice that is going to prosecute those cases. And so our job in the next several years
[26:10]is to make sure that when we have a Department of Justice that will seek justice, that will try these cases and will ultimately hold perpetrators accountable,
[26:20]that that evidence is there. And I think broader than that, the survivors have been very clear that
[26:30]it's not just about having justice in the court system and in the justice system itself, but also that justice means that we leave a world behind for
[26:42]the next generation of women where women know what sexual assault looks like, that women know they can say no, and that they don't find themselves in these
[26:52]situations in the future and so there's a broader piece of this that is about culture change and about changing the system itself and not electing leaders
[27:03]that are going to allow abuse like this to go unchecked and frankly electing more women. >> That's right. I mean culture change also has to include faith that if you make a
[27:14]an allegation into complaint it will be investigated and perpetrators will be prosecuted. Those victims don't have that faith today, do they? >> I think that their lived experience has
[27:26]told them that the system has failed them over and over again and I think that is ultimately what myself and the women serving in Congress and the women
[27:36]leading the truth commission want to change which is that we build a system of governance of leadership that ultimately not only believes women but
[27:48]empowers them and puts them in positions of power to make decisions for our communities.