[0:02]I'm really rich. Ever since the day back in 2015 when he first ran for president, Donald Trump's always boasted that his rightful place among the high and mighty
[0:11]was a proof of his valor and b evidence that to drain the swamp, you need somebody who knows where the bodies are buried in the corrupt circles of Wall Street and Washington.
[0:22]>> So why is the MAGA base broken with Trump over the Epstein files? Why can't this populist leader, who beat allegations of an attempted coup with the storming of the capital, one who's seemed to bend the Constitution to his
[0:34]will at times since his re-election, why can't he make this story go away? Remember, Trump ran against entitlement? And even when he's threatening to withdraw the license of a TV network
[0:45]because its White House correspondent asks about the case, does the threat still carry does it still have the same weight? How does his base now feel about
[0:55]siding with dictators over slain journalists and about tax breaks for the rich? Today in the France 24 debate, why are the Epstein files dogging Donald Trump? With us from London, he served as
[1:07]a high-ranking federal prosecutor in the US Justice Department, lead prosecutor in the FBI special counsel Robert Mueller's probe into Russian interference in the 2016 elections.
[1:16]Andrew Weissman, professor at NYU School of Law. Thanks for being with us. Welcome. Nice to be here. >> From Washington, Republican strategist
[1:28]Dan Hazelwood, president of Targeted Creative Communications. Good to see you again. >> Good to see you. And from Norman,
[1:38]Oklahoma, Allison Shortle, associate professor of political science at the University of Oklahoma, the author of The Everyday Crusade, Christian Nationalism in American Politics.
[1:48]Welcome to the show. >> Thanks. You can uh by the way also listen, like and subscribe to the France 24 debate wherever podcasts are
[1:57]streamed. Now that the bill is nearly unanimously passed, both houses of Congress, aids to the president say Donald Trump will sign this bill, releasing the Epstein files, quote,
[2:08]whenever it gets to the White House. But as Simon Meritz reports, that may not be enough to clear the air. >> Was 16. This was me at
[2:19]>> It was a historic day for the victims of disgraced fiancere Jeffrey Epstein. The US House of Representatives and Senate both moved on Tuesday to release files related to the convicted sex offender
[2:29]who had ties to some of the most powerful men in the country. >> It sends a message that uh Americans are finally sick and tired of a uh Epstein class of rich and powerful men who
[2:41]thought they could get away with anything. I mean, it was sick to create a a a rape island where young girls were taken and trafficked. Uh, and it's a horrific moment in our history. Uh, it is going to be something we have to
[2:52]grapple with as a nation. I do. >> Roana is the Democrat representative who introduced the bipartisan Epstein Files Transparency Act into the House of Representatives. The text, which US President Donald
[3:04]Trump said he will sign into law, contains several provisions. It will require the Department of Justice to publish within 30 days all unclassified materials it has in a searchable and downloadable format that relate to the
[3:15]Epstein investigation. That includes information on his girlfriend and accomplice Gizlin Maxwell and the names of anyone involved, including government officials.
[3:25]Epste took his own life in 2019 while in custody on charges of sex trafficking of minors, while Maxwell remains behind bars for her role in the affair. Thomas Massie is the Republican representative
[3:36]who introduced the bipartisan bill and he is already demanding repercussions. >> Well, you know, there's becoming a reckoning in Britain that needs to
[3:46]happen in the United States. A prince lost his title. The ambassador to the United States lost his job. We need to see those same kind of consequences here.
[3:57]That reckoning has already started with former Harvard President and ex-treasury secretary Larry Summers, who has renounced his public commitments after his name came up in the files that were released last week.
[4:09]>> Trump socialized with Epste in the 1990s and 2000s, but says that he broke off the friendship over what he calls a rift. Former President Bill Clinton, like Trump, was also once close to
[4:20]Epstein, but neither man has been formally accused of any wrongdoing. Yeah, let me begin with you. Uh, Allison Shortle, you're sitting in Oklahoma,
[4:31]state that, uh, solidly votes Republican, and we saw with those images in that report uh, a rare moment of bipartisanship
[4:42]in Washington. Why is this issue getting such solid approval from both sides of
[4:52]the aisle? It's a valid question. Why would something so scandalous unite people uh
[5:03]when we are so polarized? The easiest answer is that conspiracy theories are more palatable. They're more accessible for Americans to understand versus a
[5:13]strictly policy issue. So you might hear a lot about immigration. Americans are very polarized on immigration and everything else. they are uniting on
[5:23]this for different reasons. So, we have liberals uh and the nation's Democrats who very much want to open up these files because they presume that there is
[5:33]going to be a link to Donald Trump and that this will be embarrassing for the leader of the country right now. Uh meanwhile, you have Republicans who are our nation's conservatives by and large.
[5:44]they have bought into what Trump himself has already sold that the Epstein file should have been opened under Joe Biden and this is something he hammered home
[5:54]quite a lot in his bid for his second term uh which was interrupted by the Biden presidency. So this is something that all Americans support but for very
[6:06]different reasons. Uh the Trump allies and typical MAGA country they want to see people held accountable. They want to, as Trump promised, drain the swamp.
[6:16]So, they want to see these powerful members uh held accountable, as do many liberals and Democrats. But let's not get ourselves twisted here. The real
[6:26]reason is definitely politically based, but the two different bases, Democrats and Republicans, have very different reasons why they want these files released.
[6:37]>> You use the word conspiracy. Is the conspiracy uh what happened which is proven factually uh is the conspiracy
[6:47]uh that uh the names have not been made public. >> The conspiracy is who is actually in those files. So it's very easy to
[6:57]manufacture hidden relationships and you'll see Donald Trump do him this himself possibly, right? We don't know if it's a conspiracy or if it's factual until we have the evidence. Uh but
[7:09]Donald Trump himself is really trying to steer people's eyes towards Bill Clinton in particular. Uh steer their attention that way. Uh claiming that Bill Clinton
[7:20]will end up in these files. How he knows that, we don't really know. Um how anybody would know what what happens to be in those files other than someone who was involved with Epstein himself, we
[7:31]don't really know. Um, so conspiracy here can be anything, but it's very popularized in MAGA country, uh, in
[7:40]places like Oklahoma where the Epstein case has been linked to several powerful people, whether that has evidence to it or not. All right. So, making the
[7:51]rounds, an interview with Jeffrey Epstein's brother, expressing fears that uh the juicy bits uh of these federal
[7:59]documents will uh not only be redacted uh but uh uh erased. So, let me ask you, Andrew Weissman, as a a former senior
[8:10]member of the Justice Department, how easy is it to uh put things through the laundry uh and and the dryer, if you will, when you have these kinds of
[8:19]documents? >> I actually think it would be very hard to do that. Um because if you have documents that were obtained for
[8:31]instance, let's just say from Google because we're dealing with a Gmail account, even even if somebody at the Department of Justice, and I'm not saying they would, but let's assume that they decided that they were going to
[8:43]destroy it, it exists somewhere else. And so the chances of getting caught of the fact that um you did that are are fairly high. Um so I I don't think that
[8:54]would happen. I think that what I do think um there's a distinct possibility is that even with Donald Trump signing
[9:02]this bill, he will not turn over all of the documents. And one of the reasons I say that is this whole idea of what Congress is doing is a little bit of
[9:14]Kabuki theater because if the president really thought that these documents should be released, he doesn't need to wait for Congress. He is the head of the
[9:25]Department of Justice. He says that all the time. The Supreme Court has backed him on that on that issue. He could turn over the documents now today. Um at the
[9:36]at the moment that we are talking on this show, he doesn't have he doesn't need a congressional bill. He could turn it all over and he is not doing that. Um, and so one of the reasons that I
[9:47]think there's this conspiracy theory and people are suspicious on the right, left, middle, um, uh, for various reasons as noted is why he isn't doing
[9:58]that. Why is it when he has the power to do all of that um, that he is not taking any action at all to release these documents? >> Andrew, I want to ask Dan Hazelwood to react to that. But first, let me just
[10:09]ask you because you said it's hard to uh, uh, uh, erase uh federal documents these days when it's things like emails. We we
[10:20]remember the Iran Contra scandal and that was in a different era back then. You could use the shredder. Are you saying that it's the the the adage that life is on the
[10:30]record is even more real today than it was before? >> Well, I think yes. Um, just remember that what we're talking about is does
[10:40]the Department of Justice have the sole copy of something? If they don't have the sole copy, um, which is in which is so true when you're dealing with
[10:50]electronic data, um, you might try and delete um, or get rid of what you have, but that doesn't mean that you've gotten rid of it in every location um, where
[11:02]that document exists. and and today when you do uh criminal investigation, I've been a federal prosecutor for many many years um when you're dealing with electronic data, you're always getting
[11:13]copies of things that exist elsewhere. So, yes, you could try to do it. um you might have limited temporary success, but the chances that you're going to be
[11:24]able to eradicate and destroy for all time all copies of an incriminating document um I think would be difficult,
[11:33]not impossible, but difficult to do. >> Yeah. A new poll by Ipsos for the Reuters News Agency points to well massive disapproval of Trump's handling
[11:43]of the Epstein files. Moreover, 70% of respondents feel the government is hiding the client list, including 60%
[11:54]who identify as Republicans. If you look at there, you see the part in yellow, only 17% of those same Republicans uh say they trust the government's handling
[12:05]uh of those documents. uh Dan Hazelwood, why didn't Donald Trump just release the files and he could have then from a strategy point of view
[12:16]lit a counter fire and said, you know, what concerns me is fake and what concerns the others is true. Well, I don't know why he didn't. I
[12:28]think uh my assumption is is that he just thought he could move forward on his other agenda items and that this was old news and he didn't didn't want to worry about it anymore. It just wasn't
[12:40]particularly relevant for him. I think what continues to animate this is a belief in society generally and it's true on the conservative. It's also true amongst a lot of other non-conservative
[12:51]portions where they we many people assume that the rich and powerful, you know, the rules are different and something was going on. It's clear something was going on. There's been convictions. There's been an
[13:02]investigation. So, calling this a conspiracy, you know, yes, a conspiracy about who may be on this list, but there's actually been real world, you know, convictions that have gone on here.
[13:14]There's real world victims here. And the story keeps surfacing in very weird ways as pieces. You know, as you uh in the introduction mentioned the uh Andrew
[13:24]Windsor, I think is is now his name in uh the United Kingdom. There there's been other people who have had stories about them. People have leaked various documents. So there's pieces out here
[13:34]that keep this story alive and you know, society wants to know what's in there and and who's being you know, what's being hidden and that's sort of natural.
[13:43]The Democrats decided since Trump seemed less interested, they decided to jump all in on this partially because they believe there's a a good conspiracy wherever Donald Trump is. They jump in
[13:55]this over and over again. You know, I think we're going to come out at the end as we see the documents get released. We're going to see people getting embarrassed in trouble. you again your
[14:06]your uh coverage mentioned Larry Summers, the former Treasury Secretary and adviser to Obama and and Biden. Um so we're going to continue to see people
[14:18]getting embarrassed and and maybe worse >> cards are going to come out. I think the idea that we're going to get to the end of this is one of the other myths. I mean, we just released all the Kennedy
[14:29]assassination files apparently, and there's still people who are saying, "Oh, no, there's still secrets that are being kept." So, this is going to that's where the conspiracy will live on. And
[14:40]how does Donald Trump at this point get ahead of the story since uh he tried to uh kill the release of those files and now has to go along with it? If you were
[14:50]advising him again from a political strategy point of view, what would you tell him? Well, to be clear, he doesn't listen to my advice. So, but I, you know, Donald
[15:02]Trump is a master of getting to the front of the parade. And I think all these people who imagine that this is somehow a crack or a fissure and we're about to see the end. Like, we've seen
[15:13]this story 50 times before where, oh, this is the end. It's like, no, it's not. He's gonna, you know, I don't know what he's going to do when he signs this, but he's going to be able to say
[15:23]brag about being the one, you know, bringing this out into the open. He's going to brag about his justice department finally bringing truth and facts to the victims. He's going to be
[15:34]at the front of this parade and a lot of people who thought, "Oh, we're going to get him this time." are going to sit there and they're going to be like, "Oh, well, not again." >> Allison Shorel, you agree? Uh, at the
[15:45]end of the day, uh, the old Oscar Wild line, uh, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. Donald Trump will have the
[15:53]limelight, and that's what matters. >> I do tend to think we've been here before. Uh, and Donald Trump tends to
[16:02]handle these things well. he uh no matter what happens, he can deflect or he can just lean into what he does as
[16:12]being evidence of what is good for democracy no matter what. Uh that could happen. It could be the case that this is the first time that something very
[16:24]embarrassing is in that file about him and somehow it is successfully used by perhaps members of his own party uh to
[16:33]perhaps dislodge him. I I can't see it being some huge win for Democrats if I'm being completely honest. Uh, but I can see it as showing some weakness
[16:45]within the Republican party, particularly the uh, former Tea Parter Tea Party contingent versus some other conservatives who have already tried to
[16:56]express concerns about Donald Trump, but have not successfully been able to put that into action. >> All right. Even if Donald Trump rides this out, it seems like it's a little bit of a sore subject to ask him about
[17:07]it. Uh just uh look at uh the Bloomberg News Agency reporter who got called piggy on Air Force One or the ABC News White House correspondent when she posed
[17:18]the question about the Epstein files to the president. >> You're a terrible person and a terrible reporter. Uh as far as the Epstein files
[17:27]is, I have nothing to do with Jeffrey Epste. I threw him out of my club many years ago because I thought he was a sick pervert. But and I guess I turned out to be right. But you know who does
[17:38]have Bill Clinton. Larry Summers who ran Harvard was with him every single night, every single weekend. They lived together. They went to his island many
[17:48]times. I never did. >> Again, a political strategy question here. Dan Hazelwood, does that sound like a man on the defensive? You know, this is one where this is
[18:01]actually Trump 101, which is, oh, I get to have my foil of the press. I'm going to go after them. He makes points that are seemingly accurate, that are seemingly based in the evidence as we
[18:13]know it. There there was a separation years ago. There was a victim who came out who said that uh yes, they knew Trump and Trump was not involved. So,
[18:23]you know, I I think this is a he's a little frustrated perhaps because he's not controlling this the way he might want to, but also he's he's on to other things. I just
[18:34]don't see this at the end of the day actually materially mattered. And I think the whole idea that we're going to have some sort of Lochness monster revelation come out in this is is just a
[18:45]little fanciful on on everybody, all the spectators parts. >> Andrew Weissman, it's a game of two halves and at the end Trump wins. I don't think so. Um, you know, your
[18:57]question about um sort of what is the right political strategy here is such a good one because the political strategy here would be just turn the stuff over
[19:07]and move on. Now, this is death by a thousand cuts. It is over and over again in the news and it is hurting him in the polls that you just showed. And so the
[19:19]logical conclusion is that there's something in the files that would hurt him because it doesn't make any sense that you wouldn't just turn the stuff over and get pull the band-aid off. Um,
[19:30]and we already know from the material that has been released that Congress obtained from the Epstein estate that DOJ said they did not have. The Department of Justice said they did not
[19:42]get this. Congress got it from the Epstein estate. has Jeffrey Epstein saying Donald Trump knew about the girls. That's his term. Um I wouldn't
[19:52]use that, but he is using it um presumably to talk about underage women. Now that's Jeffrey Epstein saying that. It may or may not be true, but here if
[20:02]you are Donald Trump, the politically wise thing would be just turn everything over unless there's something in there. And so to me, I think this is one where
[20:13]we really have to wait and see. um you know what happens here because he is not helping himself with the polling that shows that the vast vast majority
[20:24]of the United States um thinks that something is really fishy here and that the file should be turned over. >> By the way, this isn't all about Donald Trump. There's uh uh other rich and
[20:35]powerful people who uh are also involved in this story. Jeffrey Epman's V Jeffrey Epstein's victims testifying in front of
[20:44]the Capitol on Tuesday. >> This is me at 16 when I met Jeffrey Epstein. Now start.
[21:00]It is an honor to stand here before the American people. However, I shouldn't have to stand here at all. I'm here because as a child I was pulled into Jeffrey Epstein's world. A world built on exploitation and manipulation of
[21:12]innocents and the protection of powerful men and women who believed that they were untouchable. >> Powerful men and women who believed that
[21:22]they were untouchable. Uh uh Andrew Weissman, those thousand paper cuts, it's not just Donald Trump who's affected.
[21:33]That is absolutely true and it is a very fair point that um we're focusing on this because we've got information and concerns with respect to the president
[21:44]of the United States. But um as you've noted um there are many other people um here there are Democrats, Republicans um
[21:54]who are um potentially going to have a lot of answering to do. there's some information that has already come out and the victims want to hold those
[22:04]people to account um and at least in the court of public opinion in terms of um
[22:12]what they knew and their um complicity um in in terms of their um potential actions here. So it is very very fair to
[22:23]talk about this in a bipartisan way and that there is going to be information that uh makes people look not very good.
[22:33]Um and you already have people talking about the fact that they regret what has happened. Um and so that's a fair point.
[22:42]But while you're seeing Larry Summers um the Harvard professor uh you know taking responsibility stepping back you know the issue is he
[22:54]is doing that but you don't see the repercussions yet with respect to official um conduct um and pulling back by the president of the United States.
[23:05]You just have a denial on his part and so far a refusal to turn over documents that he could turn over today. Allison
[23:14]Short uh praying on uh underage uh girls that is uh a universal topic. Uh it
[23:24]provokes outrage all over the world. Uh I where you are in Oklahoma, is this
[23:31]more of an issue than in other places? I would not say that it's not an issue
[23:40]anywhere. Um I don't think in Oklahoma it's more of an issue than in other areas. Uh but I will say that there are
[23:50]places like Oklahoma and in the United States in particular that have different laws, different types of oversight in order to protect freedoms. Um, I'm
[24:00]originally from Vermont, a very liberal state in the US that has had a lot of protections uh for people who are seemingly bad, right? Uh, people who
[24:11]commit certain crimes, who typically would go on a list. If you are a sexual predator in the United States, you can be put and on a list so all of your
[24:22]neighbors can see where you are and where all of the sexual predators are. uh states both liberal and conservative tend to protect rights of individuals
[24:32]from things that they think are unfair and unjust. One of those is a big question about what to do with predators and does it violate their rights to essentially out them after they've
[24:44]already gone to prison, served their terms, um and essentially done what they were supposed to do to re-enter society. Um, so it's not just conservative states
[24:55]where this is a problem. It's liberal conservative states in the US where we're really trying to grapple with how we would ever handle issues such as this
[25:05]without violating citizens rights. Uh, which is important. Uh, we we tend to forget that when we have something so vicious as children being violated of
[25:16]course is an emotional topic and we don't want that to happen. Uh but it's complicated in terms of wanting to protect everybody's rights involved,
[25:26]including the victim, but certainly it's a difficult issue here in Oklahoma as it is everywhere around the world. And
[25:36]what how do you is there are there dots to be connected between fictitious conspiracy theories like Pizzagate which a few years back uh there was this
[25:46]far-right conspiracy that uh Hillary Clinton and her ilk were uh uh trafficking children uh from a pizza parlor in Washington DC. It was
[25:57]completely false. and the real life crimes committed by uh Jeffrey Epstein. >> Well, I think in general uh the the dots
[26:10]to be connected are that people love conspiracy theories. Are they uh when you I am a public opinion researcher. I ask on survey questions people's propensities to engage in conspiracies.
[26:22]Uh, and the vast majority of Americans say that they believe in one or two. Um, about a quarter of Americans are very
[26:33]entertained by all conspiracy theories and regularly look them up and make them part of their worldviews. And all of that contributes to sort of our understanding of how people trust
[26:43]government. uh which is to say that conspiracy theorists are largely disaffected and they're looking for something to make sense of the world. Uh and conspiracies
[26:55]offer this through line, this ideology that they can connect themselves to that makes politics make sense and it makes all of these bad things in the world sort of make sense. uh if they can only
[27:06]get rid of the bad people when in fact actual change towards the better, it should entail a lot of systematic systematic changes, a lot of structural
[27:17]changes to make sure that our laws are working for the people uh and in fact are not benefiting just the rich in society or just one group in society.
[27:26]So, Andrew Weissman, is this a in light of what you just heard there from from Allison? Is this um a story that shows that you United States
[27:37]democracy is uh resilient? Because here you have bipartisan lawmakers pushing back against the executive branch uh of
[27:47]government uh working on uh ways in which uh the the uh state can protect the vulnerable or uh is this just a sign
[27:58]that uh politicians are pandering uh to those who just don't believe anymore anything they hear. I think it's too soon to say that
[28:11]democracy in the United States is resilient. I mean, I hope that you are right. I'm sure everyone on this program hopes that you are right. Um, and the
[28:22]reason I think that it's too soon is one of the things that uh is a sign of our democracy is having the rule of law. But
[28:32]um and that has traditionally u meant that the Department of Justice is a political that is a norm that's been file that's been followed for Democratic
[28:41]and Republican administrations. Um and there's really been a separation of the Department of Justice from the White House since the Nixon era. But in
[28:52]connection with the Epstein case, and it just happened in the last two days, the president of the United States directed the Department of Justice. That already
[29:02]is something that doesn't happen because the White House is is normally supposed to be separate from the Department of Justice. But here, the president has directed the Department of Justice to
[29:14]open an investigation of the Democrats who he says are in the Epstein files. Um, and so not only do you have that
[29:23]norm breaking down of separation at the White House from the Department of Justice, but the idea that you would only go after Democrats, I mean, if people are in the files and should be investigated, so be it. But that would
[29:35]apply to everyone, you don't have a rule that says you only go after Republicans or you only go after Democrats. That is a sign of an unhealthy democracy where
[29:47]the rule of law is not applying. So, I don't think from the Epstein case you really can say, you know, there's there's reason to be optimistic and
[29:56]hopeful. Um, but I I hope that um you're right that that we can be back here at some point where we say that the democracy in the United States has been
[30:06]resilient. Dan Hazel, would do you agree? After all, uh Richard Nixon, his uh attorney general, John Mitchell, uh
[30:15]was uh implicated uh very much so in the Watergate scandal that brought down the then US president. the fact that you have this uh attorney general, the
[30:26]justice minister in the US, Pam Bondi, uh the head of the FBI, Cash Patel, that are so close to the president that uh this is a blurring of lines that's
[30:36]dangerous for democracy. I I think there's there's two things. First of all, let me agree with my colleague that I don't think the Epstein case is going to make a case for or
[30:48]against democracy in the United States. I think in 20 years it's going to be looked back at like a weird academic thesis of what what was this all about? This will pass except for the victims
[30:59]who can will continue to suffer. But you know there there was an important caveat that was put in there since Nixon. This is in the lifetime of myself and I think many of us on this program. You know
[31:09]before Nixon Nixon Johnson Kennedy you had Jay Edgar Hoover head of the FBI. There were very political and nasty interventions that were occurring and
[31:20]abuses of power and the American democracy not only continued but flourished. This is going to be one of those episodes that we will talk about in years to
[31:30]come. There were clearly targeted investigations that were ordered by the Biden administration against conservatives targeting them for IRS audits and other things. There were a
[31:41]variety of abuses of power. This is sort of, you know, I hate to, you know, I like the idea that we're going to have this immaculate uh government that's not
[31:52]going to be involved in what goes on, but that is not human nature, and that has not been the case for a long time. I I like the idea that it ought to be. I'm in favor of that. So, I'm not arguing
[32:02]against it. I'm just saying, let's be a little bit realistic. But I I do want to agree with my colleague. The Epstein files are not going to be an argument for against democracy. Democracy's doing
[32:12]fine. This is part of what the system is about, which is ugly disagreements get refereed through the election process. That is our system, and it's working.
[32:24]>> All right. >> It It doesn't look great at times, but it's working. >> All right. A lot of questions over uh still over Jeffrey Epstein, not just the
[32:34]circumstances of his death in 2019. He's been depicted at times as a financial wizard who made his fortune through brilliance. A closer look though points to a bagman sometimes who knew
[32:46]how to network and keep the money of his benefactors away from the tax man. Last month, the New York Times reported on how disgraced investment fund billionaire Leon Black frequented
[32:57]Epstein starting in the 1990s in trusting the former high school math teacher with tax optimizing his personal millions. After his first sex offense
[33:07]conviction in 2012, he began advising Mr. Black using quote his connections at JP Morgan Chase, the bank, where Mr. Epste was a prized client to seek a loan
[33:18]for Mr. Black. In one email, he told a banker he was advising on the $120 million purchase of one of four original Edvar Monk paintings uh The Scream, a
[33:29]claim that's been denied in that same New York Times report uh uh by Mr. Black's entourage. But still, uh again, Dan Hazelwood, we're talking about the high and mighty, the high and mighty,
[33:40]who by the way donate to presidential election campaigns. Absolutely. I mean, I think this is part
[33:49]of the impetus where you see a lot of people saying, "Let's bring out the files and let's figure out who's involved and let's shame or prosecute them as the as the case may be." So,
[34:01]like Larry Summers, the uh Obama Biden adviser, you know, he's been shamed. He was targeted by somebody else in the Democratic party, Elizabeth Warren. She's been arguing with him for many years. So, she's using this to her
[34:13]political advantage to marginalize him. You've got Massie and Marjorie Taylor Green in the Republican party who for different reasons have decided that they've got animus with Trump. So
[34:23]they're trying to elevate to use this. So this is all coming into a political world. But I think the American public is like let's see what's there and let's let's you know figure out who we should shame and who we should prosecute
[34:34]further. And and I think that's sort of a very normal reaction by ordinary people because one of the things that angers a lot of people regardless of
[34:45]politics is that it seems like the rich and powerful get away with too much stuff whether it's tax evasion or horrific crimes like we have in this case. So, Allison Shortle, uh, tax
[34:55]breaks for the rich, uh, the, uh, lightening of regulations, uh, uh, uh, the lightning of the Internal Revenue Service right now. Does all that stuff
[35:07]matter a little bit more after, uh, this, uh, uh, Epstein files case coming to a head? I'm not so sure the American public has
[35:20]the wherewithal to unpack any sophisticated story out of this other than the actors involved who they will
[35:30]enjoy shaming. to Dan's point that that to me feels like the bulk of uh where Americans will take this where different political actors will take this just has
[35:41]to do with whatever's in the file and if they can come up with any substance any agenda item that they can use this
[35:50]information as a tool to promote. So I don't think in it in its own right it will have any effect. Uh but it remains to be seen how different political actors are going to be able to use
[36:02]what's in there to advance whatever their agenda is. And that can look really diverse depending on both the information and the talent of whoever
[36:12]the political actor is who wants to use it to their advantage. >> Yeah, Donald Trump. Uh by the way, not just mad at journalists. Uh uh you heard it referenced there by Dan Hazel with
[36:23]this MAGA mainstay Marjorie Taylor Green. uh fighting back over the Epstein files, the far-right Georgia congresswoman uh who stood alongside those victims, one of whom you heard a
[36:33]moment ago at the Capitol on Tuesday. >> He called me a traitor for standing with these women and refusing to take my name off the discharge petition. Let me tell
[36:45]you what a traitor is. A traitor is a is an American that serves foreign countries and themselves. A patriot is an American
[36:57]that serves the United States of America and Americans like the women standing behind me. >> Andrew Weissman, she was speaking uh as the US president was getting ready to
[37:07]greet the Saudi crown prince on Tuesday. Uh is something happening inside of MAGA?
[37:19]Well, that is the fascinating uh component as as uh the other guests have been discussing is that this is not coming just from Donald Trump's
[37:30]political adversaries, but it's coming from within the House, literally the House of Representatives. And you have uh Republicans and uh fairly prominent
[37:42]Republicans breaking uh with the president. it's worth remembering the polling so they can they can look and see what is happening in the country and
[37:52]how people feel. Um, and then also remember they're thinking that we have what's called the lame duck president. In other words, Donald Trump, this is his second term. The constitution
[38:03]doesn't allow another term. So they're thinking, you know, what's coming next uh in terms of are they going to continue in this instance at least? um
[38:15]supporting the president when they can see the polling themselves and they can represent their constituents. Um Margie Taylor Green being really the most notable because she had been such a
[38:25]strong supporter um of the president and seems to be breaking to the middle. There may be a political agenda for that. Um you know I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a political
[38:37]scientist but you know she may have her own reasons to do that. But the one thing that is clear is the Epstein scandal has shown um sort of weakness in
[38:49]this president. It is one of the few times that you really are seeing um the Republican party itself not be just the
[38:58]Trump party um and really breaking with him. And I think a large reason of that has to be the polling that you put up. Um because they can see that even their
[39:09]own political base is upset with how this administration is dealing with the Epstein files. >> Is there something Dan Hazelwood that
[39:19]Donald Trump managed uh to keep together in a coalition that got him elected twice that's beginning to fray? And that
[39:27]is you have uh people from uh workingclass districts uh who normally don't vote in elections uh who uh feel
[39:38]disenfranchised who are voting for a candidate who's also supported by big business. Well, you've got two pieces going on
[39:50]here. And first, uh, as alluded to, you know, Marjorie Taylor Green has very specific motives of her own. Uh, she was she's been considered one of the most
[40:00]peculiar members of the Republican majority in the House of Representatives for years. She's infamous for talking about Jewish space lasers. She wanted to run for United States Senate in Georgia.
[40:11]And Trump told her, "No, he's going to try and find a candidate who can defeat because this is one of the seats Republicans feel that they can pick up. and we're tired of nominating disastrous
[40:21]candidates like Marjorie Taylor Green and not winning these US Senate seats. So, she got bitter and angry and so she latched on to the Jeffrey Epstein thing to start and prosecute her war that she
[40:33]feels will allow her a base that will allow her to survive the political retribution from Donald Trump. He's already unendorsed her. Massie is is uh
[40:44]famously the Republican who is most anti-Israel in the House of Representatives and they sort of have this conspiracy going between them that Epstein somehow linked to Israel. That's
[40:55]these are isolated battles very personality driven over specific personal politics of those two people. the larger context where there is a
[41:05]ripple that Trump needs to be you and conscious of and you see him pivoting to starting to try and address it more forcefully. The po real polling in America is
[41:16]there's a lot of people who are economically uncertain. They're economically unhappy and uncomfortable and that might be an understatement. It's not about the Epstein files. It's
[41:25]about how their own standard of living is going. And they punished Joe Biden for that in the belief that it was going to get better under Donald Trump. They don't feel that it's getting better. They don't feel it's getting better fast
[41:37]enough. They're they're uh not seeing clear signals from Donald Trump of how it's going to get better. And so they're venting the frustrations. And so the
[41:46]party in power is looking at choppy political waters in a midterm, which is normal. and it's being driven by this standard of living issue, not the Epstein issue, which you know is a
[41:58]distraction. What what Trump needs to do is get out some messaging that's like I am going to make your standard of living materially better. That is the pathway
[42:08]to electoral success and the opposite is the pathway to electoral failure as the Democrats learned last year. We'll have to leave it there. So many more questions though. Dan Hazelwood, thank you so much for joining us from
[42:19]Washington. And I want to thank Allison Shortle for being with us from Norman, Oklahoma. Andrew Weissman in London. Thank you for being with us here in the
[42:27]France 24 to be