[0:00]Donald Trump has sent troops onto the streets of America again. Here in Washington, DC, you can see the National Guard lined up around the city center,
[0:10]ready to tackle what he says is a dangerous crime wave. Is he allowed to do this? Will he do this in other cities? Where might it end? Welcome to
[0:20]America. >> Hello, it's Sarah here at the ground
[0:30]zero of American politics in Washington DC. >> And it's Justin in what is still the worldwide headquarters of Americas. They have been booted out of the main studio Sarah. So I don't know whether there's
[0:41]some kind of coup going on. Um there there's lots of talk of coups in Washington DC, but the most important one, the Americas one, is a sort of silent one. But anyway, we'll cope. >> Well, it's very very visible what's
[0:51]happening here. I have to say it's the opposite of a silent coup because there are National Guard troops already on the streets of Washington. 800 um National
[1:01]Guard um officers have been sent here and you can see them up and down the mile which I know you know Justin is that kind of huge ceremonial strip through the center of DC where lots of the memorials and the sites that
[1:13]tourists most want to come and see are well very very visibly there are big Humvees and people in uniform um patrolling around there along with all sorts of other um uh drug um enforcement
[1:25]agency officers that kind of thing it is very obvious what's happening on the streets. Yeah, cuz when you say Humvees, well, two things occur to me from what you just said. Number one, the National Mall, it's not exactly the crime center
[1:37]of the United States, isn't it? I mean, I've done kind of loads of pieces to camera there, as you do now, and you never feel that your stuff's going to be nicked. So, let's just hold that thought for a second is what they're actually
[1:48]doing. Number two, I suppose we should say about a bit about the National Guard because what you've just brought to our attention is that this is quite a this is quite a militarylooking
[2:00]outfit, isn't it? This isn't a sort of pretend soldiers. It it really does um make an impression and they have proper kit. >> Oh, because they're real soldiers. It's
[2:09]a reserve unit of the army that is kept in reserve to be deployed to big emergencies. Now, more usually that's been national disasters um where they can help with um hurricanes or flooding
[2:20]and the damage done by that kind of thing. Occasionally it's been to rioting and civil disorder. Um they haven't been sent in by a US president other than
[2:30]Donald Trump since '92 I think in the the the riots in LA which was you know very very serious violent situation completely different to what's happening in Washington right now. And um yeah
[2:42]it's it feels quite performative. Justin, I think that's your point is that the mall might not be where you're likely to get stabbed or carjacked. It is where most visitors to Washington go,
[2:52]of course. And in part, Donald Trump says he wants to reassure them that it's safe to come and visit their nation's capital. But yeah, mostly these guardsmen are there to be seen, one feels. >> Do we know what their rules of
[3:02]engagement are? I mean, it's it's not it's never been quite clear to me when the National Guard do go somewhere as they did for those riots that you mentioned um how much it escalates the
[3:14]situation because they have a a greater freedom if you like to put it bluntly to shoot people than the police do or do they not have that freedom do or indeed are they not saying >> well they can't arrest people um except
[3:25]in very very special circumstances and they're not saying that that's going to what's going to happen in Washington DC so they are there to back up and support police operations is what they say. Um now they make this very visible presence
[3:37]and of course they are heavily armed. So um for crowd control um I think that's useful but nobody's um saying that that's what the situation is in the streets of Washington right now. They can detain people until local law
[3:48]enforcement get there um to arrest them. But the real rules of who's actually in charge here, whether it is still the DC mayor and the police force or whether um
[3:59]Donald Trump um federalizing um the policing of uh Washington and sending in the guard means that ultimately he um makes the decisions. That's extremely unclear. It's been asked many times um
[4:10]at the White House and at press conferences the mayor's given and it's it's pretty opaque really. But but no, the guards are not there to take over the role of the police. essentially they are supposed to be there to back them up. >> So you want to talk a bit about what the
[4:22]mayor's making of it all because there's obviously a Democrat mayor of Washington DC that is always the case um Mural Bowser um who has behind the scenes been
[4:33]pretty punchy. She's um told her community according to the New York Times we should protect our city, protect our autonomy, protect our home rule. Get to the other side of this guy.
[4:43]make sure we elect a Democratic House of Representatives so that we have a backs stop to what she called an authoritarian push. But it's really telling though, isn't it Sarah that actually in front of
[4:52]the cameras, she hasn't been that much uh in a condemnatory mood. And that I suppose brings you to the difficulty the Democrats have that even when every
[5:02]senue of your body tells you this is a bit silly. It's performative at best. And actually crime you could argue uh is down in most American big cities. Even
[5:13]when everything tells you that kind of arguing against something that seems to be suppressing crime is it's a delicate thing to do. >> Yeah. It's a it's a trap that um if
[5:24]Donald Trump thought Democrats were going to walk straight into it, they have managed not to yet. But here's the problem. I mean, it's inarguable, Justin. I mean, the statistics are there that um crime certainly in Washington is
[5:35]at a 30-year low, but that doesn't mean it's non-existent. I mean, there are stabbings and carjackings, and that has happened to uh staffers working for the White House and people who work in
[5:46]Congress. And you can't go around telling people that the streets are safe if that's not their personal experience and that's not how they feel when they're out on the streets of Washington or any other big city in America. It's
[5:58]almost exactly like what was happening I guess this time last year. We were talking all the time about the economy and about inflation and about how voters were complaining that um grocery prices were just going up and up and up and Joe
[6:09]Biden, the then president was trying to tell them inflation's coming down. Don't worry about it. I've got the economy under control now. He was the statistics were true that he was citing but it wasn't how people felt and it's just
[6:20]really bad politics to go out there and tell people what they are feeling is wrong. Yeah. >> So Democrats need to be careful that they don't go around saying hey crime isn't a problem and Donald Trump is just
[6:31]using this madeup excuse to send forces onto the streets. But I mean there's a completely different argument about as you know well Justin the American president doing this sending essentially
[6:43]the armed forces not local police into states or the district in this case taking charge of um crime and law enforcement like this that's a very political thing. >> I'm really fascinated by this business
[6:54]of how you oppose it or whether you get sucked into opposing it at all because that point you've just made really underlined by of all people Joe Scarra. So Joe Scarra, the morning host on
[7:06]MSNBC, the kind of left-wing equivalent of of Fox News, who said this about journalists expressing their views in private to him.
[7:17]>> You know, I actually heard a reporter uh heard from a reporter when this has happened going, well, you know, if he doesn't overreach, this is actually a good thing for quality of life, etc.,
[7:27]etc., etc. uh because DC right now I had this happen to my family and I had that and they they go down the list uh and
[7:36]then uh saw him tweet something completely different. Uh so DC there has been a problem in DC. >> It's not as bad as it was two or three
[7:47]years ago, but it's not it's not as it's not as safe as Manhattan. It's not as safe as the nation's capital should be. >> Not as safe as Manhattan. Uh that that
[7:58]that I thought was quite striking. But what he could also have said is that however safe or unsafe it feels in DC,
[8:07]Sarah, it's it's a lot safer per capita, if you if you look at serious crime per capita and you look at DC and New York and and the various other cities that
[8:18]Donald Trump has talked about, Oakland and California, Chicago, all Democratic controlled cities. There are plenty of Republican controlled cities where per capita the crime is
[8:30]still higher. >> Yes, that's absolutely true. Uh and some of it of course depends on what kind of crime it is and therefore who experiences it because we know the world over. You know, it's in the worst and
[8:41]the least well-off neighborhoods generally where the the crime is highest. And that's true in this very kind of segregated city of Washington as well where you in in in southeast you know there's a fairly high murder rate
[8:52]and that's not um anything like um true in um northwest um Washington where I live where the streets do feel pretty safe but when it's in downtown areas that people are being stabbed, mugged,
[9:03]um carjacked, that kind of thing. Um, I mean, they're not you're much less likely to be um victim of a a drive-by shooting or something, but that doesn't mean that being carjacked at gunpoint isn't a terrifying experience. Um, and
[9:15]something that people really do not want to have to think about when they're on their way out of a restaurant or the cinema, the theater to go home. So, you know, this is a real thing that Donald
[9:24]Trump is tapping into here. But why is the question? because it's not the president of the United States job to go around and beefing up law enforcement
[9:34]even in the capital city where he lives and and the lines usually where this is up to the mayor of a city or it is up to the state to deal with that. And you know there instinctively most Americans
[9:46]don't want to see um armed forces put onto the streets to deal with Americans um who are not going about uh in a lawabiding fashion. That's just that's not how the country is is policed. And
[9:57]that's why there's a sense that this is part of some kind of authoritarian creep that Donald Trump's looking for any excuse to send troops onto the streets. First in LA, which he did back in June when there were riots against um
[10:09]immigration rates, now in DC, that he'll push into other Democratic cities to pick a fight with governors and mayors like JB Pritsker in Illinois if he um picks on Chicago for instance. is that
[10:20]um authoritarian view of the way the president is acting that's freaking out um a lot of Democrats and people who are worried about civil liberties and some you know just some perfectly ordinary citizens.
[10:31]>> Yeah. And of course the question why he's doing it is is interesting and relevant, isn't it? And actually we've had a question about it from um Matt in Derby. >> Hi everyone. Lately, I've been getting
[10:42]flashbacks to Trump's first term when it seemed like every day brought some unexpected headline grabbing decision. For example, announcing he's deploying
[10:51]the National Guard to DC. My question is, are these major moves part of a planned agenda or is Trump improvising as he goes? And along with that, who's
[11:03]actually shaping these announcements behind the scenes? Who's whispering in Trump's ear this time around? >> Who's whispering in his ear? Well, I mean, he has um he he has people close to him like his chief of staff, Susie
[11:14]Wley, deputy chief of staff, Steven Miller, who I think are very much all on the same page with this kind of thing. And I mean, is it planned? It's I think it's instinctive,
[11:24]but within the shape of a greater plan and idea whereby Trump and his administration can seize on news events
[11:33]and moments and shape them to fit with the larger picture of what they would like to do. And this is what a lot of people have been worried about even before he got back into the White House,
[11:43]that he would want to use the Army, the National Guard to crack down on protests. He um seemed really frustrated that he wasn't able to crack down harder
[11:53]on black lives protests in his first term. And that once it has become more normal for the president to be sending troops onto the streets, where does that
[12:04]end? Um, and if you are um particularly worried uh about Donald Trump and what his ultimate agenda might be, you can find plenty of people who are saying he's softening us up for the moment when
[12:15]he is using um the army on the streets basically to suppress the next election to stop people from uh voting in areas where he doesn't want them to to somehow
[12:25]take control of the election of the polling process and bend it in his favor. Even if that's not what he's doing, it is against norms for the president to be sending troops onto the street like that and and that's why
[12:37]people are worried about it. >> That really brings up then, doesn't it? If you're a Democrat and you seriously believe what you've just said, um that this is a softening up essentially to to
[12:48]overturn democracy, then the idea that you don't say anything and you don't get trapped, you know, as we've just been saying, trapped into talking about this when you should be talking about other things. And I heard Paul Begala, the the
[12:59]Democratic um uh consultant and strategist from the kind of Clinton area. Um hugely influential still in the party just because he's such an able guy
[13:09]and such a lequacious guy as well and he pops up on the TV all the time. But he was, you know, essentially saying, well, he absolutely condemns this and and can't stand Trump. He was saying it's a trap. Don't don't get involved in
[13:20]talking about this. But of course, if what you've just said is truly felt by the Democrats, then they've got no real choice. I mean, I just wonder whether the whole thing actually is about crime, but the crime that it's all about,
[13:30]Sarah, is not a matter of strategic thinking. The crime or the set of crimes that it's about is Jeffrey Epstein's and that actually this is just another way of changing the subject which he's very
[13:42]good at doing. >> And that's true. And the Epstein's candle has not gone away and there are still plenty of questions to be answered about that. >> Here we are not talking about it though, Sarah. That's the point, isn't it? You, you and I, we're falling into the trap.
[13:52]>> It's true. And we often say that Donald Trump is absolutely brilliant at changing the subject, at seizing the agenda, at at molding news coverage to what he wants it to be. And of course, by the end of this week, we're going to
[14:03]be talking about the summit in Alaska. But I think, you know, just to say that he's changing the subject away from something he doesn't want to talk to might be to gloss over um a bigger
[14:13]picture that there is here. And even if you don't think that this is part of a plan to to to overturn democracy and use the um US army to do it, I think it is
[14:22]part of uh a narrative he wants to tell which is that um crime is out of control in America um and not just in Washington, but that it is in Democrat
[14:33]run states and cities um where um violent thugs are running a muck and terrorizing the law-abiding populace and that it is only Donald Trump who can crack down on this and get it done. So,
[14:45]ignore the statistics about where it is Republican run cities and states that um crime rates are higher. Ignore any of those facts, but be seen to be taking on
[14:55]these Democratic governors. Send your forces onto their streets and then tell your people, "I have solved this enormous problem that there was in
[15:04]America through my strong armed tactics. This is the way to get it done. I'm the only guy who can do it." That phrase defund the police has a long shadow, doesn't it? I' I've heard Democratic
[15:16]operatives, as you would have done, call it the kind of worst catchphrase in American political history, the most damaging, the most selfdefeating. And at the time, you know, there was a
[15:26]sort of second bit to it, which is you defund the police, but you spend the money on other things, psychological efforts and and and you know, efforts to to prevent crime in the first place. for
[15:37]the Democrats when they were using it. They weren't all using it by any means at all, but at the time of the George Floyd outrage and the disturbances and the riots that there were they were
[15:48]using it and it's kind of come back to haunt them. And there is this sense, isn't there, throughout the nation that in democratic cities and sometimes uh a sense very much based on, you know,
[16:00]there are parts of Chicago you wouldn't want to hang around uh particularly at the weekend, there is a lot of crime going on, a lot of shooting going on. And there's a sense that the Democrats
[16:10]gave to people that they didn't really care. And it's it's politics. It's an interesting thing, isn't it? that that
[16:18]that that has had this shadow that still falls over them and renders them, it's a bit like immigration in a way, particularly illegal immigration, but
[16:28]it's it's it's put them in a position where they want to be able to break out and say, "We don't want crime anymore than anyone else does, but they can't seem to get themselves there." >> Yeah. Because as you say, Justin, you
[16:39]know, the idea of defunding the police when the argument was all about um police brutality and and the fact that, you know, cops were killing um black men on the streets of America. That argument
[16:50]seems to have completely disappeared within this wider picture. Now, you don't hear anything about that. Although, you know, not all police forces have completely reformed, but got the Justice Department um under Donald
[17:01]Trump now pushing for the most lenient sentences you can possibly imagine. um when cops are up in court um accused of excessive violence against um usually um
[17:12]ethnic minorities who they've been arresting. So yeah, we've gone from a position where that was what was exercising a lot of the population and and certainly a lot of people on the left to this completely different
[17:23]picture where you're looking at, you know, the most um authoritarian kind of policing you can imagine. And we should also say that um the law is always there in the background as it always is in
[17:34]every aspect of American life. And of course all of this is subject to challenge, isn't it? I I mean there's already a court case, isn't there, in Los Angeles about the earlier deployment
[17:45]of the National Guard in LA. Uh this thing which I like the sound of the posy commitartis act which he may or may not have breached. Um uh so there's this
[17:57]kind of sense that actually a bit bit like the tariffs that behind the scenes while we all talk about the impact and whether this is going to happen that is going to happen there is a sort of
[18:08]separate track there's a non-political track there's a legal track where he can be opposed not always it has to be said desperately successfully in the modern era quite a lot of efforts to sty him in
[18:18]the courts haven't much come to anything and a whole range of things but this is one of those places where certainly in California, the idea that he has the
[18:28]right to do these deployments at all is being challenged. >> Yeah, it's all about whether you can declare an emergency um genuinely h and it meet the terms of this act because
[18:39]the polycomatus act basically prohibits the use of the military which includes the national guard for civilian law enforcement. Um it was I mean it it
[18:49]would be considered um very very controversial if that was to happen in the UK as well, wouldn't it? if you were to send the troops out to basically do the job of the police. But there are exceptions to that and it can be if um
[19:00]you're specifically authorized by Congress um or if the president thinks that it's necessary because of insurrection or rebellion. And that's why it's being challenged in LA because
[19:11]although you had um some smallcale um protests and demonstrating verging nearly towards rioting, was that really um insurrection or rebellion? and
[19:22]did it justify sending um the National Guard onto the streets. But um of course you will remember um Justin, the one time that there was what looked very very close to an insurrection and the National Guard were summoned onto the streets.
[19:34]>> I know where you're going with this. >> Absolutely. January the 6th, 2021, Donald Trump supporters marching up to the capital, try and stop them certifying the election what you know
[19:44]has been deemed by many, many people to be a genuine attempt at insurrection. The National Guard were called out then. Nobody was challenging the legality of that. But of course on that day when
[19:54]troops were needed on the streets um Donald Trump was calling them very very fine people not dangerous criminals. >> Yeah. Let's end with a question because it's actually a set of questions in a way and quite a few people have asked us this question though I think to an
[20:06]extent we've already answered it but let's just make it plain that we understand um why it's being asked and this is it. This so this is one of the questions we've had but it kind of is
[20:18]emblematic of quite a few more. So, dear Americacast, with Trump yet again flooding the zone from using the National Guard to police Washington DC, visiting the UK to insult the Lord Mayor
[20:27]and play golf at a US taxpayer expense. Is this purely to distract away from the Epstein files? I gravely fear, this questioner says that a man with the greatest sense of self-interest will
[20:39]throw any country under the bus to protect himself. What can news sources do to make sure they remain unflinchingly focused on the Epstein issue and not give Trump a free pass?
[20:50]Well, Sarah, um we gave our answer, which is that we are aware of it um before, but it is something I it's a perfectly fair question, isn't it? >> It's an absolutely fair question and I
[21:00]understand um where our American is getting at. But I'm going to argue that I don't want to remain unflinchingly focused on the Epstein issue and I don't think that's giving Donald Trump a free
[21:12]pass because I don't think it's the most important thing that's happening in America. If we get any more information about it, um if we find out any more about what's in those files, who for instance it is that Donald Trump is
[21:23]possibly trying to protect by stopping the files from being published because if it's not him, then who is it? Um, yes, we've got to keep an eye on that, but we can't ignore the idea of um
[21:34]sending the troops onto the streets of uh redrawing the map of Ukraine in a summit with Vladimir Putin in Alaska or you know, many of the other dozens of really really important things um that
[21:46]Donald Trump is doing. Uh whether it's um yeah, rewriting the exhibits in the Smithsonian Museums or redoing the program at the Kennedy Center, both of which he's involved with this week as
[21:56]well. We've as he floods the zone, we we we've got to cover the zone, I'm afraid. And uh and we don't have the luxury of staying laser focused on the Epstein issue. >> Okay. Tell you what, I'll keep reading
[22:06]about Epstein. You get on a Greyhound and go to Alaska because I think we're holding it back. >> It will it will take a while by bus, so I better get going.
[22:17]>> That's it from us for today. If you want to hear any of our other episodes, you can get them wherever you get your podcasts. Bye.