[0:04]We'll go on the record.
[0:07]This is a deposition of Mr. Leslie H. Wexner conducted by the House Committee on Oversight
[0:13]and Government Reform under the authority granted to it pursuant to House Rule 10.
[0:18]Accordingly, House Rule 10 grants the committee broad jurisdiction for the committee to conduct
[0:22]investigations of any matter at any time.
[0:26]On January 7th, 2026, the committee voted to approve a motion directing the chairman
[0:31]to authorize and issue a subpoena to you for a deposition.
[0:35]On January 23rd, 2026, Chairman Comer issued a subpoena for Mr. Wexner to appear today
[0:42]for a deposition and furtherance of the committee's investigation into the actions and investigations
[0:47]of Mr. Jeffrey Epstein and Ms. Colleen Maxwell.
[0:51]I will enter the subpoena and corresponding cover letter as Exhibit 1.
[1:00]The committee noticed the deposition for Mr. Wexner on February 9th, 2026.
[1:05]I will enter the notice for this deposition as Exhibit 2.
[1:59]Can the witness please state his name and spell his last name for the record?
[2:05]Leslie H. Wexner.
[2:11]Thank you.
[2:12]My name is Leslie H. Wexner.
[2:16]Under the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform's rules, you are allowed to have
[2:19]a council present to advise you during this deposition.
[2:23]Do you have a council representing you in a personal capacity present with you today?
[2:27]Yes.
[2:28]Yes.
[2:29]Will council please identify themselves for the record?
[2:32]Michael Levy of Ellerman and Zena Levy on behalf of Mr. Wexner.
[2:37]Elizabeth Martin with Ellerman and Zena Levy for Mr. Wexner.
[2:41]And Matthew Zeiger from Zeiger Tickets and Little on behalf of Mr. Wexner.
[2:47]For the record, starting with the majority staff, can the additional staff members please
[2:51]introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation?
[2:58]Yalcemen Esari, Congresswoman from Phoenix, Arizona.
[3:01]Well, first we are making a member for the second meeting.
[3:09]Thank you all.
[3:10]Mr. Wexner, before we begin, I would like to go over the ground rules for this deposition.
[3:16]The questioning will proceed in rounds.
[3:18]The majority will ask questions for an hour, and then the minority will have an
[3:21]opportunity to ask questions for an hour if they choose.
[3:25]To the extent members have questions for the witnesses or witness, they will be propounded
[3:29]during their sides' respective rounds.
[3:32]The clock will stop if you need to confer with council.
[3:35]Your council is speaking, and when members or staff are speaking during the opposing
[3:39]sides' rounds of questions.
[3:41]We will alternate back and forth until there are no more questions.
[3:46]Do you understand?
[3:47]I think so.
[3:50]Here is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say to make a written
[3:54]record of the interview.
[3:56]For the record to be clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you finishes
[4:01]each question before you begin your answer, and the staffer will wait until you finish
[4:05]your response before proceeding to the next question.
[4:09]Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this deposition, please
[4:13]speak clearly, concisely, and slowly.
[4:17]Also, the court reporter cannot record nonverbal answers, such as nodding or shaking your head,
[4:22]so it is important that you answer each question with an audible verbal answer.
[4:26]Do you understand?
[4:27]Yes, I do.
[4:29]Exhibits may be entered into the record.
[4:31]Majority exhibits will be identified numerically.
[4:34]Minority exhibits will be identified alphabetically.
[4:37]Do you understand?
[4:38]Yes.
[4:39]We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and truthful manner possible,
[4:44]so we will take our time.
[4:46]If you have any questions or do not fully understand the question, please let us know.
[4:50]We will attempt to clarify, add context to, or rephrase our questions.
[4:55]We ask about specific conversations or events in the past, and you are unable to recall
[4:59]the exact words or details.
[5:02]You should testify to the substance of those conversations or events to the best
[5:06]of your recollection.
[5:08]If you recall only a part of the conversation or event, you should give us your best
[5:12]recollection of those events or parts of the conversations that you do recall.
[5:16]Do you understand?
[5:17]I think I do.
[5:21]You are required by law to answer questions from Congress truthfully.
[5:26]This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in this deposition.
[5:30]Do you understand?
[5:31]Yes.
[5:32]If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you could be subject to criminal
[5:36]prosecution, including but not limited to perjury.
[5:39]Do you understand?
[5:40]Yes.
[5:41]This includes both knowingly providing false testimony, but also stating that you do not
[5:46]recall or remember something when in fact you do.
[5:49]Do you understand?
[5:50]Yes, of course.
[5:52]Furthermore, you cannot tell half-truths or exclude information necessary to make
[5:56]the statements accurate.
[5:58]You are required to provide all information that would make your response truthful.
[6:04]A deliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement.
[6:08]Do you understand?
[6:09]Yes.
[6:11]Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's interview?
[6:15]No.
[6:17]No.
[6:19]Please note, if you wish to assert a privilege over any statement today, that assertion
[6:23]must comply with the rules of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.
[6:28]Pursuant to that, Committee Rule 16C1 states for the Chair to consider assertions
[6:32]of privilege over testimony or statements, witnesses or entities must clearly state
[6:36]the specific privilege being asserted and the reason for the assertion on or before
[6:41]the scheduled date of testimony or appearance.
[6:45]For the purposes of this deposition, objections must be stated concisely and in a
[6:49]non-argumentative and non-suggestive manner.
[6:52]If the witness refuses to answer a question to preserve a privilege, the Committee may
[6:57]seek a ruling from the Chair.
[6:59]If the Chair overrules any such objection, the witness shall be ordered to answer.
[7:04]If the witness continues to refuse to answer a question despite being ordered to do
[7:08]the witness may be subject to sanction.
[7:10]Do you understand?
[7:11]Yes.
[7:13]Ordinarily, we take a five-minute break at the end of each hour of questioning.
[7:17]But if you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know and we
[7:22]will be happy to accommodate.
[7:24]However, to the extent that there is a pending question, we would ask that you
[7:27]finish answering the question before we take a break.
[7:30]Do you understand?
[7:31]Yes.
[7:33]Finally, I will note for everyone here today that the contents of what we discuss
[7:37]in the deposition is confidential under the House deposition regulation.
[7:42]Under the rules, the Chairman and ranking minority members shall consult before any
[7:46]release of testimony or transcripts, including portions thereof.
[7:51]This means it is a violation of House and Committee rules to disclose contents of
[7:56]this deposition prior to its official release.
[8:00]For this reason, the marked exhibits that we will use today will remain with the
[8:04]court reporter so that they can go into the official transcript.
[8:09]And any copies of those exhibits will be kept at the table or returned to us
[8:14]when we wrap up.
[8:16]Can the reporter please swear in the witness?
[8:20]Would you raise your right hand for me, please?
[8:22]Do you solemnly declare and affirm under penalty of perjury that the
[8:25]testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
[8:27]nothing but the truth?
[8:28]Absolutely.
[8:33]Do you have any questions before we begin?
[8:37]I'd like a cup of hot coffee.
[8:42]Do you mind?
[8:43]No, some could get it, but.
[8:45]We can go off the record.
[8:51]We will go back on the record.
[8:55]Another member of Congress joined.
[8:57]Can he please identify himself for the record?
[8:59]Dave Mann, California court set.
[9:02]Thank you for being here.
[9:02]Dave Mann, California court set.
[9:06]Sorry.
[9:08]Amen.
[9:10]California court set.
[9:14]The time reads 10 17, and the majority's time will begin now.
[9:20]Mr. Wexner, is it true that you submitted a statement to the
[9:24]committee this morning?
[9:26]Yes, I did.
[9:27]I will now enter as exhibit one the statement of Leslie H.
[9:32]It's exhibit three because you've.
[9:33]Oh, exhibit three, excuse me.
[9:35]Statement of Leslie H. Wexner submitted the committee on
[9:38]Oversight and Government Reform, February 18th, 2026.
[9:48]Mr. Wexner, let's start by briefly discussing your
[9:52]education and experience.
[9:54]Where did you attend undergraduate school?
[9:56]The Ohio State University.
[9:58]And what degree did you graduate with?
[10:00]Business degree.
[10:02]And I know you had a long career, but can you briefly
[10:06]summarize your professional career for the committee?
[10:16]I was raised in a very poor family, and we had no money.
[10:19]And I had an aunt Ida, and she gave me, loaned me her
[10:23]life savings, which was $5,000.
[10:26]And on the end of the state, I could put it in the
[10:28]bank so it appeared that I'd have money.
[10:31]And I could borrow money from a bank, and I opened a
[10:33]store in 1963.
[10:36]And I opened a store every year for the next five or
[10:38]six years.
[10:40]And so by 1969, I had six stores.
[10:45]I took that company public, not to raise money, because it
[10:49]was remarkably successful.
[10:52]And I wanted the associates of the business to own a
[10:56]piece of the business, so I gave stock to virtually
[11:00]everybody that worked in the stores and the back rooms
[11:03]and cleaning people.
[11:05]I mean, just I'm very proud of that.
[11:08]And then opened more stores and more stores, and figured
[11:13]out at one point that there was a limit to how many
[11:15]limited stores I could open.
[11:18]So I invented a second business called Express and
[11:23]opened up more and more stores.
[11:25]And what the business then turned into was the largest
[11:31]multi-division fashion specialty business
[11:36]in the world.
[11:38]And in hindsight, I kind of invented multi-store national
[11:43]and international store retailing.
[11:47]And just a remarkable, as I look back, I don't know how
[11:52]I did it, but probably in my lifetime, I opened 10,000
[11:56]stores around the world, probably 20 different brands.
[12:01]So that's what I did.
[12:04]And that's what I did in this business.
[12:08]I started to tell you what I do personally, but that's
[12:11]another story.
[12:13]Thank you.
[12:15]Let's move on to your relationship with Mr.
[12:18]Epstein.
[12:20]When did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein?
[12:23]Probably 35 years ago, 40 years ago.
[12:31]I don't remember exactly.
[12:33]And met him through friends.
[12:36]Approximately what year would you have met him?
[12:41]Probably between 80 and 85.
[12:43]I don't remember.
[12:53]And how did you first come to meet Mr. Epstein?
[12:58]It was really by accident.
[13:01]I was friends with a couple, Bob and Wendy Meister, and
[13:08]I was in Florida, and I had never been to Florida.
[13:12]So they were driving me around, showing me what
[13:15]South Florida looked like.
[13:17]And they showed me the Breaker's Hotel, and they
[13:20]were just driving around the driveway.
[13:23]And Bob stopped the car, and he said, there's
[13:26]somebody you should meet, a really smart, savvy
[13:30]guy named Jeffrey Epstein.
[13:32]And so they stopped the car.
[13:34]I was sitting in the back seat, and they
[13:37]introduced me to Jeffrey, and we drove off.
[13:40]That was about it.
[13:42]So at that time, you had no knowledge of Mr.
[13:46]Epstein until Mr. Meister introduced you to him?
[13:49]Never heard of him, never saw him, never met
[13:53]him.
[13:55]Did Mr. Meister ever raise any concerns about
[13:58]Mr. Epstein?
[14:00]No.
[14:02]He didn't.
[14:04]And you meet him in Florida.
[14:07]What's your first impression of Mr. Epstein?
[14:10]Kind of a medium, dark-haired guy.
[14:17]I don't remember saying much more hello,
[14:20]shaking his hands, or maybe nodding from the
[14:22]back seat of the car.
[14:24]What was your first impression of Mr. Epstein?
[14:27]Just a guy about medium height and with dark
[14:30]hair.
[14:31]At that time, did you have any understanding
[14:33]of what he did for work?
[14:35]No.
[14:37]Did you understand Mr. Epstein to already be
[14:40]wealthy when you met him?
[14:54]No.
[14:55]At this time, I would like to introduce what
[14:57]will be marked as Majority Exhibit 4.
[15:00]This is a Vanity Fair article entitled
[15:03]Inside Jeffrey Epstein's Bond with Les
[15:06]Wexner from 2021.
[15:09]The article reports on the origins of your
[15:12]relationship with Mr. Wexner.
[15:25]I'll note a hearsay objection for the record.
[15:33]I'll note a hearsay objection for the record.
[15:39]For the record here, Federalist evidence do
[15:42]not apply to Congressional deposition.
[15:45]I'm noting my objection.
[15:46]I'm not instructing him not to answer.
[15:48]I'm noting that this is hearsay.
[15:49]That's all.
[15:50]Okay.
[15:59]So in the article, it says that you met
[16:02]Epstein sometime around 1986.
[16:07]Consistent with your testimony today, it
[16:09]says that you were introduced by Mr.
[16:12]Maeser.
[16:13]Do you agree with the article's
[16:16]characterization?
[16:17]I don't know anything.
[16:19]I've never seen the article.
[16:23]Do you agree with the article's
[16:25]characterization that you met Mr.
[16:28]Epstein through Mr.
[16:30]Maeser?
[16:31]He said he didn't read it.
[16:33]What characterization are you referring to?
[16:44]To go off the record.
[16:48]So you previously testified that Mr.
[16:50]Maeser introduced you to Epstein.
[16:52]Is that right?
[16:54]Maeser.
[16:55]Bob and Wendy introduced me to Jeff
[16:57]Epstein.
[16:58]And at that time, what was your
[16:59]relationship with Bob and Wendy
[17:01]Maeser?
[17:02]Well, I met Bob because he was a
[17:07]national, international insurance broker,
[17:10]and they had our business insurance
[17:13]business, and Bob wanted me to meet
[17:16]his wife, and Bob and Wendy became
[17:18]friends.
[17:19]Did you trust Mr.
[17:26]Maeser with advice?
[17:28]Well, I trust him with insurance
[17:38]advice because that's what he did.
[17:41]He was the vice chairman of an
[17:43]international insurance company, but I
[17:46]didn't trust him for business
[17:48]advice or anything beyond the scope
[17:52]of what his profession was.
[17:56]I want to direct your attention to
[17:58]page nine of the article, and we're
[18:01]specifically looking at the paragraph,
[18:11]the sixth paragraph from the bottom.
[18:13]It starts in September 1997.
[18:15]And when you're ready, I'll read
[18:45]the relevant.
[18:47]I just read that paragraph.
[18:54]It reads, in September 1997, Wexner
[18:57]celebrated his 60th birthday with a
[18:59]dinner at his Ohio estate.
[19:01]Maeser says he used the occasion to
[19:03]once again tell Wexner how
[19:05]untrustworthy Epstein was.
[19:07]My wife and I told him an
[19:09]Abigail hundreds of times to stay away
[19:12]from Epstein.
[19:14]Mr. Wexner, do you recall this
[19:16]occurring?
[19:17]Objection double here, sir.
[19:19]Are you directing your witness to
[19:21]not the witness to not answer the
[19:22]question?
[19:23]No, no, no.
[19:24]I will direct the witness not to
[19:25]answer if that's my intent.
[19:26]I'm just raising an objection to
[19:27]the record.
[19:31]As far as I understand this, I never
[19:35]had a birthday party for myself.
[19:37]In fact, I never had birthday
[19:39]parties.
[19:40]My mom and dad just didn't do that.
[19:43]And Abigail's been great because
[19:46]every milestone birthday has been a
[19:48]surprise party.
[19:51]And I think, I don't remember for
[19:53]sure, but the 60th birthday party, if
[19:57]Senator Lieberman was there and
[19:59]Marshall Rose was there, Shimon
[20:02]Perez was there, John Glenn was
[20:07]there, Max Fisher was there,
[20:10]Michael Meister was there.
[20:17]Let me ask you a different question.
[20:19]So he never said this.
[20:21]He wasn't there and he didn't
[20:22]ever said this.
[20:23]Let me ask you a different
[20:24]question, Mr. Wexner.
[20:27]Do you recall Mr. Meister and his
[20:30]wife repeatedly warning you to
[20:32]stay away from Epstein?
[20:35]Never.
[20:36]I want to now direct your
[20:42]attention to the fifth page, and
[20:44]we are looking at the sixth
[20:53]full paragraph.
[20:57]The one that starts soon after?
[20:59]Yes.
[21:00]I assume it's okay for me to
[21:15]help them identify the right
[21:16]paragraph.
[21:17]Yes.
[21:18]Yeah, just read it.
[21:39]For the record, it reads,
[21:41]Soon after introducing Wexner and
[21:43]Epstein, Meister started hearing
[21:45]disturbing stories about Epstein's
[21:46]sexual proclivities.
[21:48]Think of whatever the worst thing
[21:50]anyone could do is, and Epstein
[21:52]did them all, Meister said.
[21:55]Did Meister ever express
[21:57]concerns related to Mr. Epstein's
[21:59]sexual proclivities?
[22:01]Never.
[22:02]Objection double hearsay.
[22:03]He answered.
[22:04]Never.
[22:05]The very next sentence continues,
[22:10]Mr. Epstein showed up unannounced
[22:12]at Meister's Park Avenue
[22:14]apartment with five models for
[22:17]Meister's sexual entertainment.
[22:19]Epstein thought he was
[22:20]bringing me a gift, according to
[22:23]Mr. Meister.
[22:24]Were you aware of this
[22:25]occurring?
[22:26]Objection double hearsay.
[22:27]Objection double hearsay.
[22:28]No.
[22:29]Did Mr. Epstein ever present you
[22:31]with women for your sexual
[22:33]entertainment?
[22:34]Absolutely not.
[22:35]Mr. Wexner.
[22:51]Are we done?
[22:52]Are we done with that exhibit?
[22:54]We are.
[22:55]Mr. Wexner, at any time, did
[23:00]Jeffrey Epstein ever inform or
[23:02]represent to you that he was a
[23:04]part of any intelligence service
[23:06]of any nation, including the
[23:08]United States?
[23:09]Absolutely not.
[23:10]Did you ever learn that he was
[23:12]involved with any intelligence
[23:14]service?
[23:15]Never.
[23:17]Never.
[23:18]Let's move on to talking about
[23:26]Ms. Maxwell.
[23:27]When did you first meet
[23:29]Elaine Maxwell?
[23:30]Probably about the time that I
[23:39]got engaged to Abigail, so
[23:42]must have been about 1990.
[23:47]And do you recall how you met
[23:52]Ms. Maxwell?
[23:53]Well, Jeffrey wanted me to
[23:56]meet the person he was going
[23:58]to marry, and I was engaged
[24:00]to Abigail in period one.
[24:07]Do you have any recollection
[24:09]of where you met Ms. Maxwell?
[24:11]No.
[24:12]And based on your testimony,
[24:15]is it fair to say that Mr.
[24:18]Epstein introduced you to
[24:20]Maxwell?
[24:21]Absolutely, yeah, sure.
[24:23]And you mentioned it
[24:25]previously, but what was your
[24:27]understanding of Ms. Maxwell's
[24:29]relationship to Mr. Epstein?
[24:33]They dated, they were in love,
[24:35]they were going to get married.
[24:39]Would you characterize it as a
[24:41]monogamous relationship?
[24:43]I thought so.
[24:44]So during this period, you had
[24:46]no knowledge of Mr. Epstein
[24:48]ever having any relationship
[24:50]with any man or woman besides
[24:52]Ms. Maxwell?
[24:57]Didn't.
[24:58]How would you characterize your
[25:03]relationship with Ms. Maxwell?
[25:14]Wendy Meister was Bob's wife,
[25:16]and we were friendly and
[25:18]friendly with each other.
[25:20]When I met Ms. Maxwell,
[25:25]she was Jeffrey's girlfriend
[25:27]and fiancee.
[25:29]It never went beyond that.
[25:31]I knew she was smart.
[25:33]I think she was an honors
[25:35]graduate of Cambridge or
[25:37]something.
[25:38]So she was like, you know,
[25:40]spoke with English accents.
[25:42]I thought he was really lucky
[25:44]because he finally met somebody
[25:46]that was really smart and nice.
[25:48]And you said that Ms.
[25:50]Maxwell was Epstein's fiance,
[25:52]so it was your understanding that
[25:54]they were engaged to be married?
[25:56]I don't remember if they were
[26:01]engaged to be married or they were
[26:03]planning to get married,
[26:05]but I was
[26:07]engaged and they talked about
[26:09]they were going to get married, so
[26:11]I don't know if it was engagement or
[26:13]just they both agreed.
[26:15]During your relationship
[26:19]with Ms.
[26:21]Maxwell, how often did you see her?
[26:23]Very few times.
[26:26]Mr. Wexner, the committee is
[26:41]investigating the circumstances
[26:43]surrounding Mr.
[26:45]Epstein and Ms. Maxwell and the
[26:47]trafficking of young women,
[26:49]trafficking and sexual abuse
[26:51]of young women or girls.
[26:53]Did Ms.
[26:55]Maxwell ever introduce you to any
[26:57]young woman or girl?
[27:02]No, I don't think she ever introduced me
[27:04]to any female or
[27:06]man.
[27:11]Did Ms.
[27:13]Maxwell ever ask you to introduce
[27:15]a young woman or girl to your friends
[27:17]or associates?
[27:19]No.
[27:24]Did you ever introduce any young woman
[27:26]or girl that you met through Ms.
[27:28]Maxwell to any of your friends or
[27:30]associates? Objection
[27:32]assumes in fact not in evidence.
[27:36]You're fine.
[27:38]That's fine.
[27:40]I think the answer is no, but
[27:42]did you ever introduce any woman or girl
[27:44]that you met through Ms. Maxwell to any
[27:46]of your friends or associates?
[27:48]No, never.
[27:54]Did Ms. Maxwell ever visit your
[27:56]home in New Albany, Ohio?
[27:58]I don't recall.
[28:14]We're going to discuss your
[28:16]business relationship with Mr. Epstein
[28:18]in more detail later, but did
[28:20]Ms. Maxwell ever play a role
[28:22]in your business relationship
[28:24]with Epstein?
[28:26]Never, none.
[28:33]In your relationship with Ms.
[28:35]Maxwell, did she ever represent
[28:37]or inform you that she was a part
[28:39]of any intelligence service of any
[28:41]nation, including the United States?
[28:47]No.
[28:49]Did you ever meet
[28:51]Ghislaine's father Robert Maxwell?
[29:02]No.
[29:04]When did you hire Mr. Epstein to
[29:08]officially work for you?
[29:13]I think it was about the mid-80s.
[29:15]Do you have any recollection of how long
[29:25]you knew Mr. Epstein prior to
[29:27]maybe I met him
[29:29]and
[29:31]that visit in the car and
[29:33]maybe it was six months or a year later
[29:35]that I asked Bob
[29:37]about, I needed somebody
[29:39]to help me.
[29:41]And I think he said,
[29:43]did you talk to Jeffrey Epstein?
[29:45]I think so. I'm guessing from
[29:47]when I met him first to
[29:49]actually having a conversation
[29:51]was probably a year.
[29:53]Just to clarify,
[29:55]that's not actually the time that you
[29:57]hired him, though. That's the time you had the conversation.
[29:59]Yeah.
[30:01]Yes.
[30:03]For the record, you don't recall the exact
[30:05]days that you hired him. No, I don't.
[30:07]Another member of Congress has
[30:11]joined us. Can she
[30:13]please introduce herself for the record?
[30:15]Yeah. Michigan State University. I represent
[30:17]the 12th Congressional District in Michigan.
[30:19]Oh, hi.
[30:21]He is trying.
[30:23]I keep telling him he's trying.
[30:25]Speak more.
[30:29]Better if I sat more in the middle?
[30:31]I mean,
[30:33]we have the video set up.
[30:35]I'll try to speak louder.
[30:37]If I'm not speaking, if you waive or something,
[30:39]it'll remind me.
[30:41]Mr.
[30:43]Wexner, would you characterize
[30:45]your relationship with Mr. Epstein
[30:47]at least initially to be solely
[30:49]business related? Yes.
[30:51]Did you at any
[30:53]time ever consider him to be a close
[30:55]friend? No.
[30:57]How often did you interact with Mr.
[31:06]Epstein throughout your relationship?
[31:08]A lot of phone conversations,
[31:18]but
[31:20]meetings
[31:24]didn't see him much.
[31:26]I was traveling a lot
[31:30]because of business.
[31:32]And it was
[31:34]erratic. He might call
[31:36]three times in an hour and not talk to him for
[31:38]three months.
[31:40]That's how I remember it.
[31:51]When you were interacting with
[31:53]Mr. Epstein, did you enjoy spending
[31:55]time with him?
[32:01]My enjoyment was fun. No, it was work.
[32:05]Can you elaborate on that?
[32:07]What were the nature of your interactions
[32:09]with Mr. Epstein?
[32:15]Professional.
[32:17]This is what's going on.
[32:19]Have you paid this bill? Do you know about that?
[32:21]I took an inventory
[32:23]of your house and no one ever
[32:25]knew how much furniture you have.
[32:27]It was like, no, I never thought about it.
[32:29]You should know that I have an inventory.
[32:31]Things are buttoned up.
[32:35]It was like
[32:39]what an off
[32:41]I don't think
[32:43]how can I explain it?
[32:45]It's like people talk about
[32:47]family offices.
[32:49]I'd managed
[32:51]all my stuff or my
[32:53]admin paid my bills
[32:55]because I was so busy.
[32:57]I realized it was a complexity of my personal
[32:59]life and somebody
[33:01]had to just do this
[33:03]stuff because it wasn't getting done properly.
[33:11]Professional
[33:13]I guess what a fiduciary would do
[33:17]more than what just your accountant would do
[33:19]or your lawyer would do.
[33:21]Something I thought was unfair for my
[33:23]attorney to do.
[33:27]You testified that
[33:29]at times he would call you
[33:31]three times a day. Is that
[33:33]a fair characterization of your testimony?
[33:35]No. What I'm saying is that
[33:37]he would call me
[33:39]three times, maybe in an hour,
[33:41]if he wanted to tell me something about what he was doing
[33:43]or would ask me a question about
[33:45]taxes so he could understand
[33:47]what he was preparing.
[33:49]Then he might not call me for three months,
[33:51]maybe six months. I wouldn't pay attention.
[33:53]It wasn't important at the time.
[33:57]Mr. Wexner, is it your testimony today
[33:59]that your
[34:01]conversations with Mr.
[34:03]Epstein were predominantly
[34:05]focused on your business
[34:07]relationship with him?
[34:09]That'd be very accurate. That would be very
[34:11]accurate. What common
[34:17]interests did you share with Mr. Epstein
[34:19]outside of work? None.
[34:22]So you didn't have any
[34:26]personal relationship with Mr. Epstein
[34:28]whatsoever?
[34:31]I don't think I ever went to lunch
[34:33]or dinner or a movie
[34:35]or had a cup of coffee with
[34:37]Jeffrey.
[34:39]I thought about that
[34:41]recently.
[34:43]I'd say the same thing about my attorney.
[34:45]I'd never been to his office.
[34:47]My current attorney
[34:49]who's been our family attorney
[34:51]for 30 years.
[34:53]How could you
[34:55]I can't explain to myself how I could
[34:57]have an attorney who lives in Columbus
[34:59]who's my personal attorney and I'm
[35:01]friendly with and never visit his office.
[35:03]It's just
[35:05]my focus was
[35:07]on my business and my focus
[35:09]was on community.
[35:11]Before my family.
[35:13]That is
[35:15]before my family existed.
[35:17]Until your family not existed.
[35:19]That's a better way of phrasing it.
[35:21]This is a general question but approximately
[35:26]how many years were you
[35:28]associated
[35:30]with Mr. Epstein?
[35:32]I don't recall
[35:37]exactly.
[35:39]And to be clear
[35:41]you at
[35:43]no point ever considered him
[35:45]to be a friend.
[35:47]No I didn't see
[35:53]Jeffrey as a friend.
[35:55]I saw Jeffrey
[35:57]as I see Matt, my attorney
[36:01]as friend, we're friendly but we're not friends.
[36:03]Obviously someone that worked for you
[36:05]in a trust position you're friendly with.
[36:07]You're not
[36:09]in a hostile
[36:11]adversary argument of position
[36:13]with the people that are
[36:15]advising you.
[36:17]It's
[36:19]been reported
[36:22]repeatedly that you were
[36:24]close friends with Mr. Epstein.
[36:26]Why do you think
[36:28]people would come
[36:30]to that conclusion?
[36:32]Objection.
[36:34]Speculation.
[36:43]Because he would tell him that.
[36:47]He told me he was friends.
[36:49]If you told me that you were friends with Bill
[36:51]Clinton I would believe it.
[36:53]Or if anybody told me
[36:55]somebody was a friend I would believe it.
[36:57]So
[36:59]I think the perspective
[37:04]that I have
[37:06]now and I think it's really important
[37:08]for this group to understand
[37:10]is that as I
[37:12]look back at it I was conned
[37:14]by the world Olympic
[37:16]all time con artist.
[37:20]And you look at
[37:22]I read in the news all the people he knew.
[37:24]Royalty.
[37:26]Kings, princes and all that.
[37:28]An incredible
[37:30]con artist.
[37:34]Do you think Mr. Epstein thought
[37:36]you two to be friends?
[37:39]Objection.
[37:44]I don't know what he thought.
[37:52]When did you learn that the Palm
[37:54]Beach Police Department was investigating
[37:56]Mr. Epstein?
[38:03]I don't recall.
[38:06]Mr. Epstein was convicted
[38:08]in 2008.
[38:10]Did you maintain any contact
[38:12]with Mr. Epstein after
[38:14]his plea deal?
[38:16]As I recall concomitantly
[38:24]with Abigail taking over the finances
[38:26]and my wife is a
[38:28]M&A lawyer. She worked for
[38:30]Davis Polk. She's really smart.
[38:32]And she took over the
[38:34]finances and kind of concomitantly
[38:36]she was discovering
[38:38]that he stole money from
[38:40]us and concomitantly
[38:42]finding out about
[38:44]these accusations and the criminal
[38:46]activity that he pursued.
[38:48]And when we
[38:50]when I when we found out about
[38:52]it we severed relationships with
[38:54]him immediately.
[38:57]Mr. Weichner I appreciate the context
[38:59]but when was the last
[39:01]time you were in contact with Mr. Epstein?
[39:03]I have no
[39:05]recall.
[39:07]Did you have any contact with Mr.
[39:09]Epstein after 2008?
[39:11]What happened in 2008 again?
[39:17]Mr.
[39:19]Epstein
[39:21]entered a plea deal
[39:25]related to the solicitation of
[39:27]minors.
[39:29]Okay.
[39:31]Never never talked to him
[39:35]never saw him.
[39:37]As far as I was concerned
[39:39]once we knew how bad he was he was
[39:41]dead. Did Mr. Epstein ever ask
[39:46]you for personal favors of any kind?
[39:48]Not that I recall.
[39:52]Did you ever ask
[39:54]Mr. Epstein for personal favors of
[39:56]any kind? No.
[39:58]How involved was Mr. Epstein
[40:03]in your personal life?
[40:15]I mean
[40:17]think about that.
[40:19]Not
[40:25]at all really.
[40:27]I think he met Abigail after we were
[40:29]engaged and he didn't know we were going
[40:31]to be engaged because I didn't
[40:33]discuss my personal life with him
[40:35]or
[40:38]anything.
[40:40]Just
[40:42]he was kind of the business
[40:44]manager of my personal affairs
[40:46]and you know at the time
[40:48]I probably had 20 CEOs
[40:50]reporting to me
[40:52]and so I had business relations
[40:54]I was used to having business relationships
[40:56]with people whether it's attorneys
[40:58]accountants
[41:00]investment banks that we were
[41:02]doing business with at commercial
[41:04]banks but I never had
[41:06]personal relationships
[41:08]with people that
[41:10]I worked with. I was pretty much
[41:12]a loner. Is it true that
[41:15]Mr. Epstein oversaw your prenuptial
[41:17]agreement?
[41:19]I don't recall that I had one.
[41:21]If you did would you consider
[41:25]that to be a business
[41:27]transaction between you
[41:29]and Mr. Epstein?
[41:31]Objection calls for speculation
[41:33]but you can answer.
[41:35]If I had one I would have
[41:37]said I would have talked to my attorney.
[41:39]Was Mr. Epstein involved
[41:41]in hiring personal staff?
[41:43]I think the answer is none.
[41:56]I can't remember
[41:58]anybody that he would have
[42:00]met that
[42:02]that I hired personally.
[42:04]Personally
[42:06]I'm thinking also business and
[42:08]household staff
[42:10]people like that.
[42:12]I can't think of an exception.
[42:14]We will discuss your financial
[42:19]relationship with Mr. Epstein in greater
[42:21]detail later but broadly did
[42:23]Mr. Epstein ever ask you for any
[42:25]financial favors?
[42:27]Let's talk about
[42:40]your property here in New Albany.
[42:42]When did you first
[42:44]buy
[42:46]the New Albany property?
[43:02]Probably in the early mid
[43:04]80s I started buying
[43:06]property as land.
[43:08]This was
[43:10]what you saw today
[43:12]if you drove around New Albany. This was all
[43:14]farmland.
[43:16]Where the house was was a sod farm.
[43:18]So it was just
[43:20]in the country.
[43:22]Did Mr. Epstein play any role
[43:24]in the acquisition of the property?
[43:26]No.
[43:28]Did he play any role in the development
[43:30]of New Albany?
[43:32]On your property
[43:36]would you often
[43:38]conduct business meetings?
[43:40]Would he?
[43:42]Would you?
[43:44]With whom?
[43:46]With anyone he's doing business with?
[43:48]Including L Brands?
[43:50]I think the only
[43:54]business meetings we ever had in the
[43:56]house were business
[43:58]meetings in L Brands, community
[44:00]meetings,
[44:02]some university meetings, but no
[44:04]I don't think we ever had like a
[44:06]New Albany meeting.
[44:08]As a business in
[44:10]the house we'd have it at the New Albany office.
[44:12]Mr. Wexner, did you ever
[44:19]meet with, socialize with,
[44:21]or otherwise engage with Jeffrey Epstein
[44:23]at your New Albany, Ohio home?
[44:25]Say it again.
[44:27]Did you ever meet with,
[44:29]socialize with, or otherwise engage
[44:31]with Jeffrey Epstein at your New Albany home?
[44:33]I'm sure he was in the house
[44:39]but I can't remember a specific
[44:41]time.
[44:43]I don't remember setting meetings
[44:45]with Jeffrey.
[44:47]Most of the business I had with
[44:50]him was over the phone.
[44:52]Was over the phone.
[44:54]Do you?
[44:56]Most of the business was over the phone.
[44:59]Do you have any recollection of
[45:01]when he first visited the property?
[45:03]No.
[45:05]No.
[45:07]And, do you have
[45:09]any recollection of
[45:11]how often he would visit the property?
[45:13]No.
[45:23]So, is it your testimony today
[45:25]that you would not have
[45:28]been aware of every time he visited
[45:30]the property here in New Albany?
[45:32]Without question.
[45:34]I wouldn't have known.
[45:36]It
[45:38]wasn't something I would explain to you.
[45:40]It's like,
[45:42]I wonder about now.
[45:44]Like, Jeffrey would call the office
[45:46]and my admin would say,
[45:48]Mr. Epstein's on the phone, he has to talk to you right away.
[45:50]And I'd pick up the phone and say,
[45:52]what is it?
[45:54]And he'd say, well, I'm in Switzerland
[45:56]talking to a Swiss bank about
[45:58]something.
[46:00]And he'd try to explain it to me.
[46:02]He said, well, you wouldn't understand the transaction.
[46:04]It's really complex.
[46:06]But I'm really busy but I needed to
[46:08]tell you this or know that.
[46:10]And I'd hang up.
[46:12]As I said earlier,
[46:14]15 minutes later he might call me back.
[46:16]And I'd look at it now and say,
[46:18]he was probably in bed in New York.
[46:20]I didn't know where the hell he was.
[46:22]Were you aware that Mr. Epstein
[46:24]stayed on your property?
[46:29]I know he bought Jack Kessler's house
[46:31]but I don't know when he was there.
[46:34]And that wasn't on your property?
[46:36]No.
[46:38]That's my neighbor's property.
[46:40]My business partner
[46:42]is Albany's friend.
[46:44]Or his house, right?
[46:46]Were you aware that Mr. Epstein
[46:48]stayed
[46:50]at one of your guesthouse on the property?
[46:52]No.
[46:59]The house he stayed at was Jack Kessler's house
[47:01]which is an adjacent property.
[47:03]It's about a half mile away.
[47:05]Mr. Wexner,
[47:11]Epstein's survivor, Maria Farmer,
[47:13]was reportedly brought to the guesthouse
[47:15]located on your property in 1996.
[47:17]Objection. He's already told you
[47:19]he wasn't on his property.
[47:21]I am only
[47:23]I am
[47:27]bringing up
[47:29]the recollection of an Epstein survivor
[47:31]for the record. Your client is welcome
[47:33]to provide a statement.
[47:35]So again,
[47:37]Maria Farmer was reportedly brought
[47:39]to the guesthouse in 1996.
[47:41]She stayed there
[47:43]for a summer and claimed she was assaulted
[47:45]there by Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell.
[47:47]Mr. Wexner, do you
[47:49]recall who Maria Farmer is?
[47:53]I know her name from the press.
[47:55]Did you ever meet Maria Farmer?
[47:57]Never.
[48:04]Is it your testimony today that you do not
[48:06]know whether Maria Farmer
[48:08]ever stayed on your property?
[48:10]That would be correct.
[48:16]Do you have any reason to not believe
[48:18]Maria Farmer's account of being abused
[48:20]by Jeffrey Epstein on your property?
[48:24]Objection.
[48:26]I'm going to be sure I answer this correctly.
[48:34]I never met her,
[48:36]didn't know she was here,
[48:38]didn't know she was abused.
[48:48]You have a large staff that works on your property
[48:50]in New Albany?
[48:54]The reason I'm laughing, I don't know.
[48:56]There's a lot of people around, but I don't know how many.
[48:58]Can you estimate how many
[49:00]people are working on the property
[49:02]at any given time?
[49:10]Twenty.
[49:12]Do you have private security on the property?
[49:14]I've had private security
[49:16]since 1975.
[49:24]Are you aware of allegations
[49:26]that security staff
[49:28]on the property stayed with Maria Farmer
[49:30]until her family was able
[49:32]to pick her up?
[49:36]I didn't know she was here,
[49:38]so I didn't know
[49:40]she was here, so I didn't know shit about her.
[49:42]Pardon me.
[49:44]I believe that you testified
[50:03]to this earlier,
[50:05]but to your
[50:07]recollection, did Mr. Epstein
[50:09]personally own property near your home?
[50:11]He bought the
[50:14]house from Jack, so
[50:16]half a mile away, if that's near.
[50:18]Was that the
[50:20]address at the 7500
[50:22]block of King George Drive?
[50:24]I
[50:26]don't know that address.
[50:30]Are you aware of the entity New Albany Company
[50:32]LLC?
[50:34]I think that's what we call the
[50:36]New Albany Company.
[50:38]Why was this LLC organized?
[50:40]Because it made business sense.
[50:46]What was the LLC
[50:48]used for?
[50:50]I assume it was for the New Albany project.
[50:52]Was Jeffrey Epstein involved
[50:56]with this entity?
[50:58]Only to the
[51:00]degree as fiduciary
[51:02]financial advisor would be,
[51:04]as Dennis Hirsch
[51:06]was, with a
[51:08]complex project.
[51:10]If you would, the family office
[51:12]would look at it.
[51:14]To be clear, the LLC
[51:16]was used to develop
[51:18]surrounding properties in New Albany?
[51:20]I don't know that. I would assume
[51:22]that it's in an LLC or it could be
[51:24]the New Albany Company or
[51:26]Corp or Inc.
[51:28]I don't really know that.
[51:30]How would Jeffrey Epstein travel
[51:34]to New Albany in the
[51:36]beginning of your relationship with him?
[51:38]I would assume he flew and
[51:40]either that or he took the train or drove.
[51:42]Did he fly on your plane?
[51:44]Very rarely.
[51:46]When he did fly
[51:52]on your plane, did you charge him
[51:54]for using it?
[51:56]I don't think so.
[51:58]Do you have any recollection of
[52:02]when you first
[52:04]would have started providing
[52:06]flights to Mr. Epstein?
[52:08]I think that's kind of a trick question.
[52:10]I don't think I ever provided flights
[52:16]for Mr. Epstein.
[52:18]And you testified
[52:22]that he very rarely
[52:24]flew on your airplane.
[52:26]Can you elaborate on that?
[52:28]The only time I really remember
[52:34]that I mentioned earlier, my wife
[52:36]would have surprise parties
[52:38]as I'd get on the airplane and
[52:40]there'd be acquaintances,
[52:42]friends.
[52:46]I was always shocked
[52:48]who was there or some
[52:50]people might fly to wherever
[52:52]the party was, which was always a surprise
[52:54]to me, and then some
[52:56]of guest friends would be at the party
[52:58]when I got there, and that was another surprise.
[53:00]So I don't remember specifics.
[53:04]So Mr. Epstein would have been
[53:06]invited to surprise parties
[53:08]for you?
[53:10]Obviously so, because he was there.
[53:15]You testified earlier that you didn't consider
[53:17]him a friend.
[53:19]Do you invite
[53:23]people you don't consider to be friends
[53:25]to surprise parties?
[53:27]Objection assumes
[53:29]that he invited them.
[53:35]Do you need to answer that again?
[53:37]Why would Mr. Epstein
[53:39]have been invited to these
[53:41]surprise parties?
[53:43]My wife would have invited him.
[53:45]Why do you think your wife would have invited him?
[53:47]Because he's our financial advisor.
[53:49]Did your wife consider
[53:51]him a friend?
[53:53]No, I don't think so.
[53:57]Can we take a quick break?
[53:59]Yes, we can go off the record.
[54:03]Oh, sorry.
[54:05]We'll go off the record.
[54:08]We can go back on the record.
[54:10]The time is
[54:12]11.10. We took a short break for the
[54:14]witness to confer with counsel.
[54:16]We have approximately 15 minutes left
[54:18]in the majority's hour.
[54:20]We understand that the witness
[54:22]would like to make a statement
[54:24]of clarification.
[54:26]Yeah, I think I
[54:28]think that's accurate
[54:30]in that I remember
[54:32]Jeffrey being on a plane
[54:34]at a surprise birthday party,
[54:36]but I don't remember him being
[54:38]at the party.
[54:40]Because I think you asked the question at the party
[54:42]and then way rear did he go.
[54:44]I don't remember
[54:46]him being at the party.
[54:48]I can remember being on the plane.
[54:51]You bring up the surprise party
[54:53]on the plane. Do you recall
[54:55]where the plane was going?
[54:57]Where was this surprise party?
[55:01]I don't.
[55:03]There were a bunch of them.
[55:05]I don't remember specifically
[55:07]which one it was.
[55:09]Were you on every
[55:11]flight with Mr. Epstein when you
[55:13]traveled on your plane?
[55:17]Objection.
[55:19]How is he supposed to know that?
[55:21]If he doesn't, he's won't be satisfied
[55:25]that he doesn't know.
[55:27]Say the question again.
[55:29]Would Mr. Epstein ever use your plane
[55:31]if you were not present?
[55:33]Never.
[55:35]Did Mr. Epstein have to ask you for permission
[55:37]to use his plane, or use your plane?
[55:39]He would have,
[55:41]but he never did.
[55:47]In regards to using your plane,
[55:49]would you... It wasn't my plane.
[55:51]It was the business's.
[55:53]The business had an aircraft.
[55:55]We didn't own
[55:57]our own airplane until
[55:59]maybe 15 or 20
[56:01]years ago.
[56:03]And he wasn't on that plane either.
[56:05]Do you recall
[56:09]Ms. Maxwell
[56:11]being present when you were
[56:13]traveling on your
[56:15]company's plane? No.
[56:17]Do you recall if Mr. Epstein would
[56:22]bring other guests besides
[56:24]Ms. Maxwell while traveling
[56:26]on your company's plane?
[56:28]No.
[56:30]There's an address at the
[56:47]7500 block of King George Drive.
[56:49]Are you familiar with that property?
[56:51]No.
[56:53]I'm not familiar with that address.
[56:59]Mr. Wexner,
[57:31]how did Mr. Epstein act
[57:33]towards women or girls around him?
[57:35]In his presence?
[57:39]In your presence, yes.
[57:48]I guess the answer would be kind of
[57:51]normal and nice.
[57:53]He would like send
[57:55]my secretary or admin flowers
[57:57]for a birthday.
[57:59]Courteous, I would say.
[58:01]Did you ever witness
[58:05]Mr. Epstein have sexual contact
[58:07]of any kind with young
[58:09]women or girls?
[58:11]Absolutely not.
[58:13]Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein
[58:15]sexually abuse young women or girls?
[58:17]Absolutely not.
[58:19]Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein
[58:21]receive massages from young women or
[58:23]girls? Absolutely not.
[58:25]Did Mr. Epstein ever discuss
[58:27]sexual acts of any kind with you?
[58:29]No. Did he ever discuss
[58:31]receiving massages?
[58:33]Yes.
[58:35]What were the nature of those
[58:37]conversations?
[58:39]He told me massage
[58:41]therapy was great and I should get
[58:43]massages. Did he ever discuss
[58:45]who he was receiving massages
[58:47]from? No. So it is your
[58:49]testimony today that you don't recall him
[58:51]ever saying anything about receiving
[58:53]massages from young women
[58:55]or girls? Absolutely not.
[58:57]I'm agreeing with you.
[58:59]Didn't do that.
[59:01]Was it common for Epstein to bring
[59:03]young women or girls to any other
[59:05]place where the two of you would meet?
[59:07]Never.
[59:13]Did Mr. Epstein ever request
[59:15]that you bring Victoria's Secret
[59:17]Models to events at your home?
[59:19]No.
[59:21]And no Victoria's Secret
[59:23]Models ever came to my own.
[59:25]Even for business purpose.
[59:27]Didn't?
[59:29]Talked about one exception.
[59:31]Oh yeah, I forgot
[59:33]about that.
[59:35]There's one exception.
[59:37]My wife had a
[59:39]for about 20 years a horse show
[59:41]here for charity.
[59:43]And one of the
[59:45]models
[59:47]husband was a polo
[59:49]player.
[59:51]And I don't know how they showed up as a couple
[59:53]and he gave
[59:55]either me or my wife a
[59:57]polo horse.
[59:59]Which was, I don't ride
[1:00:01]Abigail wasn't interested in a polo
[1:00:03]horse so that would have been the
[1:00:05]only exception.
[1:00:09]Did Mr. Epstein ever request that
[1:00:11]you introduce him to Victoria's Secret
[1:00:13]Models? Never.
[1:00:15]And I just want to clarify
[1:00:23]your testimony
[1:00:25]earlier but did you ever receive
[1:00:27]any massages from any young
[1:00:29]woman or girl brought to you
[1:00:31]or by or introduced to
[1:00:33]you by Mr. Epstein? Never.
[1:00:35]We discussed Mr. Epstein's
[1:00:49]arrest
[1:00:51]previously but I would like to return
[1:00:53]to it just to make sure the record
[1:00:55]is clear.
[1:00:57]In 2005, police in Palm Beach, Florida
[1:00:59]began investigating Epstein.
[1:01:01]In July 2006, Epstein was
[1:01:03]arrested for the first time for soliciting
[1:01:05]prostitution for minors.
[1:01:07]Prior to Mr.
[1:01:09]Epstein's arrest, were you aware
[1:01:11]of any investigation into Mr.
[1:01:13]Epstein?
[1:01:15]Not that I recall.
[1:01:20]When did you become aware of an investigation
[1:01:22]into Mr. Epstein?
[1:01:26]Probably whenever it was in the press.
[1:01:28]I don't know
[1:01:30]when that was. And you
[1:01:34]mentioned the press. Was there anyone
[1:01:36]that
[1:01:38]was a part of your business
[1:01:40]that may have alerted you to his arrest?
[1:01:42]Could have been.
[1:01:44]And for the record, did
[1:01:47]you have any knowledge of illegal
[1:01:49]activity by Mr. Epstein prior
[1:01:51]to his arrest in 2006?
[1:01:53]The only thing I recall is
[1:02:02]my chief of staff told
[1:02:04]me, and I don't know
[1:02:06]he knew press, whether
[1:02:08]it was the newspapers or
[1:02:10]radio or TV,
[1:02:12]that
[1:02:14]that Jeffrey had been
[1:02:18]accused
[1:02:20]or a woman was suing him
[1:02:22]for
[1:02:24]being aggressive.
[1:02:26]And I
[1:02:28]remember calling him
[1:02:30]and saying, what the hell is this?
[1:02:32]And he said, I was being shaken
[1:02:34]down by a hooker.
[1:02:36]And I
[1:02:38]believed him.
[1:02:40]And I think the follow-up that
[1:02:42]conversation was, I hope,
[1:02:44]you know, you're
[1:02:46]not bullshitting me.
[1:02:48]Because if it is, you know, the party's
[1:02:50]over. He said, absolutely not. Do you think
[1:02:52]I'm stupid?
[1:02:54]Which is probably what I would say
[1:02:56]to an attorney or
[1:02:58]say to you or anybody that I worked
[1:03:00]with. If you do
[1:03:02]something off, you're out.
[1:03:04]So after you had
[1:03:06]that initial conversation with him,
[1:03:08]did you discuss the allegations
[1:03:10]as
[1:03:12]they were being investigated
[1:03:14]with Mr. Epstein? Excuse me.
[1:03:16]No, I don't think I
[1:03:20]discussed it. It was done.
[1:03:22]And I believe
[1:03:24]that he wasn't stupid.
[1:03:26]And you mentioned your chief
[1:03:28]of staff. For the record, who is
[1:03:30]that?
[1:03:32]His name is Bruce Saul.
[1:03:34]And
[1:03:36]I met him through
[1:03:38]an acquaintance.
[1:03:42]It's going to
[1:03:44]help if you answer the question that
[1:03:46]he asks. Okay, thank you.
[1:03:48]Thank you. We'll all get out of here a lot
[1:03:50]faster. Did your chief of staff have any
[1:03:52]relationship with Mr. Epstein?
[1:03:56]Other than, you know,
[1:03:58]how do I answer it?
[1:04:00]I don't – none except
[1:04:02]if he would call him and I would know
[1:04:04]if – you know, everybody
[1:04:06]knew where I was all the time. So
[1:04:08]if somebody wanted to find me, would he call
[1:04:10]Bruce or call my admin? Where's
[1:04:12]less? Because
[1:04:14]I've – I
[1:04:16]try to be available to people,
[1:04:18]but I don't tell everybody where I am and where
[1:04:20]I'm going because it's traveling so much.
[1:04:22]So it would be – I would guess conversations.
[1:04:24]I'm speculating that
[1:04:26]those conversations might have happened.
[1:04:28]For the record, you were surprised by
[1:04:30]Mr. Epstein's arrest? Yes.
[1:04:32]Do you recall people
[1:04:34]around you being surprised by his arrest?
[1:04:36]Don't specifically recall.
[1:04:41]Probably at the time they were,
[1:04:43]but I don't remember it.
[1:04:45]Do you recall whether anyone around you
[1:04:47]advised you that you should cut ties
[1:04:49]with Epstein after his arrest?
[1:04:51]I'm going to instruct you not
[1:04:59]to disclose any communications you had
[1:05:01]with your wife or your lawyers
[1:05:03]in answering that question. So are you
[1:05:05]asserting, for the record, attorney-client
[1:05:07]privilege and spousal privilege? Correct.
[1:05:09]To be clear, the House
[1:05:11]does not recognize common law privileges,
[1:05:13]and so if you are asserting
[1:05:15]that in order for him to not testify
[1:05:17]to those,
[1:05:19]in order to preserve that, we
[1:05:21]may discuss and may take that to the
[1:05:23]Chairman for ruling, and
[1:05:25]potentially may direct your client to answer
[1:05:27]those questions. That's fine.
[1:05:29]The Supreme Court has also made clear that those
[1:05:31]privileges do exist in the congressional
[1:05:33]context, and I doubt
[1:05:35]very much that whatever his answer would be to
[1:05:37]this is that important, but
[1:05:39]I'm directing him to preserve those two privileges.
[1:05:41]Those two well-recognized common
[1:05:43]law privileges. I forget the question.
[1:05:47]Go ahead and ask your question.
[1:05:49]Did, after
[1:05:54]Mr. Epstein's
[1:05:56]arrest, did anyone around you
[1:05:58]advise you to cut ties
[1:06:00]with Mr. Epstein?
[1:06:02]And I'm going to, again,
[1:06:04]arrange you to answer without discussing
[1:06:06]any communications you had with your wife
[1:06:08]or your lawyers in answering
[1:06:10]that question, so you can go ahead and answer.
[1:06:12]I'm confused again.
[1:06:14]Did anybody in the answer
[1:06:16]be nobody? I can't remember
[1:06:18]anybody.
[1:06:20]Did you instruct your
[1:06:22]companies to do an internal review
[1:06:24]of your company's relationship
[1:06:26]with Mr. Epstein at this time?
[1:06:28]I probably would have,
[1:06:32]but I don't recall.
[1:06:36]That would have been
[1:06:38]anything that was
[1:06:40]untoward that happened in the business
[1:06:42]around the business.
[1:06:44]I would always say, this
[1:06:46]has to be investigated.
[1:06:48]And I would
[1:06:50]always
[1:06:52]in community
[1:06:54]and business have
[1:06:56]the same attitude.
[1:06:58]But I don't specifically
[1:07:00]remember. Were you suspicious
[1:07:05]of any others around
[1:07:07]Mr. Epstein that they
[1:07:09]may have aided in the solicitation of
[1:07:11]minors for prostitution when you
[1:07:13]learned of his arrest?
[1:07:16]Can you repeat the question? Let me clarify.
[1:07:18]Mr. Epstein had
[1:07:20]individuals such as Maxwell,
[1:07:22]Sarah Kellan,
[1:07:24]among others who
[1:07:26]have been identified as potential
[1:07:28]co-conspirators. Were there any
[1:07:30]individuals that
[1:07:32]you understood to be
[1:07:34]affiliated with Mr. Epstein
[1:07:36]that you may have suspected
[1:07:38]to have aided in his
[1:07:40]crimes?
[1:07:44]No, because I don't recall
[1:07:46]any people around
[1:07:48]him and his business.
[1:07:50]My business
[1:07:52]is with him. I don't know
[1:07:54]my attorney's admin or
[1:07:56]who his associates are.
[1:07:58]Mr. Wexner, we're
[1:08:02]approaching the end of our hour,
[1:08:04]so I will just ask you one final question
[1:08:06]before we take a break.
[1:08:08]With the benefit of hindsight,
[1:08:10]were there any things you witnessed
[1:08:12]or observed about Mr. Epstein
[1:08:14]that could have suggested he was
[1:08:16]trafficking and sexually abusing
[1:08:18]women? Absolutely not.
[1:08:20]I've asked myself that
[1:08:22]question over
[1:08:24]and over, why I didn't see
[1:08:26]there should have been a clue
[1:08:28]or something that I should have picked up on.
[1:08:30]There's nothing
[1:08:32]I can recall, nothing new.
[1:08:34]Not even a clue
[1:08:36]clue. And I
[1:08:38]think the reason
[1:08:40]in hindsight, and I think
[1:08:42]for the understanding to get to
[1:08:44]the bottom of what Jeffrey did
[1:08:46]is to understand
[1:08:48]how great a con he was
[1:08:50]because that's
[1:08:52]the explanation I have to myself.
[1:08:54]How could I have never
[1:08:56]thought he was a thief? How could I
[1:08:58]never thought he was a pervert?
[1:09:00]All the terrible things.
[1:09:02]Never clue.
[1:09:06]We'll go off the record.
[1:09:08]We can go on the record.
[1:09:10]Good morning,
[1:09:12]Mr. Wexner.
[1:09:14]My name is, I will be doing
[1:09:19]most of the questioning for the minority
[1:09:21]today. We appreciate your time.
[1:09:23]As you know, our conversation
[1:09:25]today will focus on your
[1:09:27]relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.
[1:09:29]We'll touch on probably your
[1:09:31]financial and business relationship with
[1:09:33]him. We'll also discuss your
[1:09:35]personal relationship with him.
[1:09:37]You already discussed with our colleagues
[1:09:39]the way that you originally met
[1:09:41]Jeffrey Epstein. I would just like
[1:09:43]to ask a couple of questions
[1:09:45]on that topic. When you
[1:09:47]first met Epstein, how did
[1:09:49]he originally present himself
[1:09:51]to you? What services
[1:09:53]did he say he was offering?
[1:09:57]When I first met him,
[1:09:59]it was just polo and
[1:10:01]he didn't represent anything and I didn't
[1:10:03]ask anything. I was just meeting
[1:10:05]a friend's acquaintance.
[1:10:07]As that business
[1:10:09]relationship became closer
[1:10:11]and you eventually hired him, I assume
[1:10:13]he pitched his services
[1:10:15]in some way. What was his
[1:10:17]way of framing what he was offering
[1:10:19]to you? I think it was his
[1:10:27]experience
[1:10:29]at an industrial level,
[1:10:31]like looking for a big company
[1:10:33]like Bear Stearns, and
[1:10:35]then he had done personal
[1:10:37]work for the Rothschild family
[1:10:39]in France. Personal
[1:10:41]wealth management, essentially?
[1:10:43]I don't know.
[1:10:48]We've seen some reports that he would
[1:10:50]present himself as a bounty
[1:10:52]hunter, that he would find people's
[1:10:54]missing money. Do you recall
[1:10:56]him saying anything like that?
[1:10:58]No. One of the articles
[1:11:03]that my colleagues already introduced,
[1:11:05]I won't make you look
[1:11:07]back through it, but it was the Vanity Fair article.
[1:11:09]I will just read you a paragraph
[1:11:11]out loud. It's the only paragraph I have
[1:11:13]a question about. But that
[1:11:15]article reported that during
[1:11:17]a conversation Jeffrey Epstein
[1:11:19]asked Mr. Meister
[1:11:21]to introduce Epstein
[1:11:23]to you, Mr. Wexner.
[1:11:25]And Epstein told Meister that
[1:11:27]Epstein had learned that
[1:11:29]Wexner's current money manager
[1:11:31]was stealing from him.
[1:11:33]And the article identifies Harold
[1:11:35]Levin, I think, as your previous
[1:11:37]financial advisor.
[1:11:39]Do you have any recollection of whether
[1:11:41]Mr. Epstein ever claimed that
[1:11:43]Mr. Levin was stealing from you?
[1:11:45]Objection to the article on
[1:11:47]hearsay grounds. You can answer.
[1:11:49]As I recall,
[1:11:56]Jeffrey never thought
[1:11:58]Harold was stealing, and I didn't
[1:12:00]think Harold was stealing.
[1:12:02]Did anybody ever say that Harold
[1:12:04]was stealing? No.
[1:12:06]Okay. No recollection of that.
[1:12:08]No recollection of that.
[1:12:10]That article also describes a story
[1:12:12]where you sent Mr. Levin
[1:12:14]to meet with Mr. Epstein and just discuss
[1:12:16]an investment opportunity, but
[1:12:18]Mr. Levin came back to you and told you
[1:12:20]to stay away from Mr. Epstein.
[1:12:22]Do you have any recollection of
[1:12:24]that type of a warning from Mr. Levin?
[1:12:26]No. No.
[1:12:28]Okay.
[1:12:30]When you initially
[1:12:35]hired Mr. Epstein,
[1:12:37]do you recall – and some of this may be
[1:12:39]repetitive, so you have my apologies –
[1:12:41]do you recall what year you initially
[1:12:43]hired Mr. Epstein? No.
[1:12:45]Would it be right to say
[1:12:48]that it may have been either
[1:12:50]1989 or
[1:12:52]1990?
[1:12:58]Yeah, back then. Okay.
[1:13:02]Do you recall anybody
[1:13:04]warning you not to get involved
[1:13:06]with Jeffrey Epstein when you
[1:13:08]first hired him?
[1:13:10]No. I'd like
[1:13:15]to talk about Epstein's
[1:13:17]roles and responsibilities while
[1:13:19]he worked for you.
[1:13:21]You touched on this in the last hour.
[1:13:23]The total amount of time that he
[1:13:25]worked for you, how long was
[1:13:27]that approximately? It started maybe
[1:13:29]in 1989
[1:13:31]or 1990, and
[1:13:33]I think you testified it ended in
[1:13:35]2000. And
[1:13:37]what year did you say? They didn't
[1:13:39]– Okay. Well, what year – do you recall
[1:13:41]the relationship ending? Could your
[1:13:43]statement help refresh your recollection?
[1:13:45]Yeah. But where I said in the
[1:13:47]statement would be the correct
[1:13:49]date and
[1:13:51]whatever period that 89
[1:13:53]or 90 had been about then,
[1:13:57]and it ended when it ended.
[1:13:59]Was that upon his final
[1:14:01]plea in 2008?
[1:14:03]Whatever I said in the statement
[1:14:07]is accurate. I remember
[1:14:09]this being concomitant with
[1:14:11]finding out he was stealing from us.
[1:14:13]In terms of the different
[1:14:15]things or roles that he would play
[1:14:17]for you, is
[1:14:19]it right to say that he acted as
[1:14:21]an investment advisor or a money
[1:14:23]manager? What would be the right term for
[1:14:25]that role?
[1:14:32]The
[1:14:34]term wasn't part of
[1:14:36]my vocabulary, but he
[1:14:38]was kind of like the family office
[1:14:40]manager, and
[1:14:42]so he
[1:14:44]oversaw investment, oversaw
[1:14:46]people getting paid,
[1:14:48]made sure taxes
[1:14:50]were done, and talked to
[1:14:52]accountants. Just the –
[1:14:54]I had
[1:14:56]in hindsight a very –
[1:14:58]because I had done so well,
[1:15:00]and I was dating Abigail
[1:15:02]and we were engaged and I was married and running
[1:15:04]20 businesses, I was
[1:15:06]very busy, and
[1:15:10]all that just stuff
[1:15:12]that was in my personal life
[1:15:14]was either managed –
[1:15:16]wasn't managed by me. It was like
[1:15:18]my admin was like the
[1:15:20]– which sounds kind of crazy – was the closest
[1:15:22]thing I had to any kind of supervision.
[1:15:24]Would he be
[1:15:26]making investments on your behalf
[1:15:28]the way a traditional investment advisor
[1:15:30]would? I must
[1:15:35]have known at the time. I don't recall
[1:15:37]specifically asking
[1:15:39]him about investment.
[1:15:41]I would like to
[1:15:43]introduce Minority
[1:15:45]Exhibit A.
[1:15:47]And
[1:15:54]this is an article from the Wall Street
[1:15:56]Journal titled
[1:15:58]Epstein Flourished
[1:16:00]as He Forged Bond
[1:16:02]with Retail Billionaire.
[1:16:04]And you don't have to read through this
[1:16:20]whole article. It's just helpful to have it in front of us.
[1:16:22]But on the bottom of
[1:16:24]page 3, I will read
[1:16:26]just a single sentence to you.
[1:16:30]And it – the article – sure, it starts
[1:16:32]with the word soon. It's the very last
[1:16:34]sentence on the bottom of page 3.
[1:16:36]And that sentence – I'll read it
[1:16:46]out loud as well – says that soon
[1:16:48]Mr. Epstein was presenting
[1:16:50]Mr. Wexner with
[1:16:52]a variety of investments,
[1:16:54]including apartment buildings
[1:16:56]and a development involving a
[1:16:58]former post office building,
[1:17:00]says Mr. Morowski.
[1:17:02]And we understand that to be Robert
[1:17:04]Morowski, a former vice chairman
[1:17:06]of your company.
[1:17:08]Is that consistent with what you
[1:17:10]remember Epstein doing
[1:17:12]for you? Objection here so you can
[1:17:14]answer. No.
[1:17:16]Okay. Do you have any recollection
[1:17:18]of Epstein presenting you with
[1:17:20]investment opportunities such as these?
[1:17:22]I'm sure he did, but
[1:17:24]they weren't apartment buildings
[1:17:26]or post office.
[1:17:28]It had been
[1:17:30]– I mean
[1:17:32]–
[1:17:34]Do you remember? No, I don't remember.
[1:17:36]Is it that you
[1:17:38]don't recall at all, or that
[1:17:40]as far as you recall, that statement
[1:17:42]is just not accurate?
[1:17:44]Well, there's two parts of it.
[1:17:46]In reading this, one,
[1:17:48]not accurate, and I fired
[1:17:50]Bob Morowski for
[1:17:52]bad behavior.
[1:17:54]But as to the substantive part,
[1:17:56]is it that you don't recall whether or not
[1:17:58]Epstein would present you with these types of investments?
[1:18:00]I don't – no, I do not recall.
[1:18:02]Okay. And the quote is
[1:18:04]from somebody that I fired.
[1:18:06]Okay.
[1:18:08]In addition to the,
[1:18:10]I guess, family office role that
[1:18:12]you described, I'd like to ask
[1:18:14]about whether Epstein provided
[1:18:16]other services to you.
[1:18:18]We know that he provided some later clients
[1:18:20]with tax planning services.
[1:18:22]Did he ever do anything like that for you?
[1:18:24]Must have, but I have no
[1:18:28]specific recollection.
[1:18:30]I mean, somebody,
[1:18:32]my attorney, tax attorneys, have kind of
[1:18:34]a model about who did what.
[1:18:36]And so is it fair to say again
[1:18:38]that that is – that you just don't recall
[1:18:40]either way? Yeah,
[1:18:42]I don't recall at all. Okay.
[1:18:44]Separately from that,
[1:18:46]Mr. Epstein was
[1:18:48]a trustee for
[1:18:50]various trusts and charities
[1:18:52]of yours. I'd like to
[1:18:54]touch on both of those roles,
[1:18:56]starting with trusts.
[1:18:58]And so I will introduce
[1:19:00]Minority Exhibit B.
[1:19:02]And that article
[1:19:19]is from ABC News,
[1:19:21]and it's titled, Billionaire
[1:19:23]Businessman Leslie Wexner
[1:19:25]Refuses to Reveal Full Scope
[1:19:27]of Jeffrey Epstein's Alleged
[1:19:29]Multi-Million Dollar Theft
[1:19:31]Dated January 23,
[1:19:33]2020.
[1:19:35]It's January 25.
[1:19:37]Great. Thank you.
[1:19:39]Well, I have January 23.
[1:19:41]Oh, I'm looking at the
[1:19:43]date in the top right. You're right.
[1:19:45]Under the byline is January 23.
[1:19:47]It's got two dates. I don't know which is correct.
[1:19:49]All right.
[1:19:51]On page three of this
[1:19:53]article, and I'll let you
[1:19:55]take a moment. In the middle
[1:19:57]of that page, the
[1:19:59]article says that they identified
[1:20:01]nearly a dozen trusts
[1:20:03]connected to you.
[1:20:05]Where is that? Sure, it starts in the paragraph
[1:20:07]Vulture and
[1:20:09]Boyd in the middle of the page.
[1:20:11]Okay. Who are those?
[1:20:13]I think they're associated with
[1:20:15]ABC's investigative reporting team.
[1:20:17]Thank you. And it tells us that
[1:20:19]they found nearly a dozen trusts
[1:20:21]with names like health and science
[1:20:23]interests, arts interests,
[1:20:25]and community interests
[1:20:27]connected to Wexner
[1:20:29]that listed Epstein as trustee
[1:20:31]and received large gifts of
[1:20:33]stock in Wexner's company.
[1:20:35]So I'll stop there.
[1:20:37]Do you have a recollection
[1:20:39]of the trusts that are described
[1:20:41]here? None. None.
[1:20:43]And so do you have
[1:20:45]any recollection of Mr. Epstein's
[1:20:47]role with those trusts?
[1:20:49]None. Okay.
[1:20:53]We will come back to that,
[1:20:55]but I'd like to touch
[1:20:57]for a moment on Epstein's
[1:20:59]role with the
[1:21:01]Wexner Foundation.
[1:21:03]And I, for that,
[1:21:05]will introduce Minority
[1:21:07]Exhibit C.
[1:21:09]And this document
[1:21:28]is titled
[1:21:30]Independent Review of Jeffrey
[1:21:32]Epstein's Involvement and
[1:21:34]Interactions with the Wexner Foundation.
[1:21:36]And the document is dated February
[1:21:38]24th, 2020.
[1:21:40]I'm not going to ask you to read through this.
[1:21:42]It's a long document. I will point you to
[1:21:44]a specific part of it. But first,
[1:21:46]we understand this to be
[1:21:48]an independent review
[1:21:50]that was undertaken by a law firm at the
[1:21:52]request of the Wexner Foundation
[1:21:54]in the wake of Mr. Epstein's arrest
[1:21:56]in 2019. Is that also
[1:21:58]your understanding?
[1:22:00]I never knew of it.
[1:22:02]I've looked at this, I'm
[1:22:04]laughing, because the address is 65
[1:22:06]East State Street, and that was the address of
[1:22:08]my dad's first store when I was 13.
[1:22:10]Okay.
[1:22:12]Well, so is the report
[1:22:14]unfamiliar to you?
[1:22:16]Yes, completely.
[1:22:18]And I think page four of the report
[1:22:20]says that you were interviewed
[1:22:22]by the law firm for this report.
[1:22:24]Do you have any recollection of
[1:22:26]that?
[1:22:28]No.
[1:22:30]Do you have any reason to doubt
[1:22:32]the report that you were in fact interviewed
[1:22:34]for the report?
[1:22:37]No.
[1:22:39]I don't remember it, so I can't doubt it.
[1:22:41]Page nine of the report
[1:22:45]simply tells us
[1:22:47]that Epstein,
[1:22:49]and I'll let you turn to it if you'd like,
[1:22:51]but it just tells us that Epstein was elected
[1:22:53]as a trustee of the Wexner
[1:22:55]Foundation in
[1:22:57]1992, and that
[1:22:59]he remained a trustee until
[1:23:01]September 2007.
[1:23:05]Epstein would not have been the only
[1:23:07]trustee of the Wexner Foundation,
[1:23:09]correct?
[1:23:11]Objection to hearsay as to the document.
[1:23:13]The question is fine.
[1:23:15]Can you repeat it? Sure.
[1:23:17]Did the Wexner Foundation have
[1:23:19]more than one trustee?
[1:23:24]I'm sure it did, and I think there was
[1:23:26]a legal requirement to have three.
[1:23:28]And I don't
[1:23:30]know that.
[1:23:32]I just think that.
[1:23:34]On the next page,
[1:23:36]page 10,
[1:23:38]under the header
[1:23:40]number two,
[1:23:42]there's a header that reads
[1:23:44]Epstein played no role in
[1:23:46]the operation of the Foundation's
[1:23:48]fellowships or other programs.
[1:23:50]And the first sentence afterwards
[1:23:52]says, based upon our
[1:23:54]review of Foundation records
[1:23:56]and interviews with Foundation leaders,
[1:23:58]we concluded that, although
[1:24:00]a trustee, Epstein played
[1:24:02]no role in the management or
[1:24:04]administration of the Foundation's
[1:24:06]operations or programs.
[1:24:08]Now, on
[1:24:10]that topic, I'd like to introduce
[1:24:12]one more single-page exhibit
[1:24:14]for you.
[1:24:16]So I'm just going to object to
[1:24:18]this statement as both a statement
[1:24:20]and hearsay, but go ahead.
[1:24:22]I think as the majority general counsel noted,
[1:24:24]the objections have no legal
[1:24:26]grounding in this forum.
[1:24:28]I'm making it for the record.
[1:24:30]It is a deposition, so I'm making
[1:24:32]an exception, that's all.
[1:24:45]So, this is a single page,
[1:24:47]and I'll give you
[1:24:49]a moment to look it over.
[1:24:51]This is D? That's D.
[1:25:02]I'll describe it briefly.
[1:25:04]Can you give me a chance to read it?
[1:25:06]Sure, of course.
[1:25:25]I think I read it.
[1:25:27]I've never seen this before, but go ahead.
[1:25:29]Great. It's an email
[1:25:31]chain from 2006 between
[1:25:33]starting with Peg Ugglund,
[1:25:35]who we understand was the financial
[1:25:37]advisor for your family office,
[1:25:39]a person named Darren, who we understand
[1:25:41]to be Mr. Epstein's lawyer,
[1:25:43]Darren Indyke, and Jeffrey Epstein.
[1:25:45]And the chain appears to relate
[1:25:47]to a foundation grant,
[1:25:49]and the question is whether the funds
[1:25:51]should come from the Wexner Foundation
[1:25:53]or some other related entity.
[1:25:55]Epstein appears
[1:25:57]to make the decision that
[1:25:59]if the recipient is a U.S. charity,
[1:26:01]then the funds should come from
[1:26:03]the Wexner Foundation.
[1:26:05]I'll just represent to you there are other emails
[1:26:07]with similar themes. This
[1:26:09]email chain seems to clearly
[1:26:11]show Mr. Epstein acting as
[1:26:13]a final decision maker with respect
[1:26:15]to the disbursement of Wexner
[1:26:17]Foundation funds.
[1:26:19]And that obviously does not square
[1:26:21]with findings in the independent report.
[1:26:23]So having been interviewed for the report,
[1:26:25]my question is whether
[1:26:27]you had any understanding of
[1:26:29]Mr. Epstein playing this kind of role
[1:26:31]for the foundation.
[1:26:35]I'm not sure I understand the question.
[1:26:37]No problem.
[1:26:39]Are you asking me
[1:26:41]did Jeffrey decide that money
[1:26:43]should be given to Abeven?
[1:26:45]Or
[1:26:47]do I write a personal check
[1:26:49]or is it a foundation check?
[1:26:51]It seems in this example, Mr. Epstein
[1:26:53]was deciding whether or not the funds
[1:26:55]for this entity should or should
[1:26:57]not come from the Wexner
[1:26:59]Foundation.
[1:27:01]Or from someplace else, not whether the donation
[1:27:03]should be made itself.
[1:27:05]I think that's the distinction he's trying to draw.
[1:27:09]I have no recollection of
[1:27:11]where it came from.
[1:27:19]I regularly
[1:27:21]helped Abeven
[1:27:23]after he retired from government.
[1:27:25]And I probably
[1:27:27]would have started with writing a personal check
[1:27:29]and then I would
[1:27:31]speculate how it was paid.
[1:27:33]I don't remember writing the check.
[1:27:35]But Abeven was a
[1:27:37]very good friend and he
[1:27:39]had no money. He worked for the government
[1:27:41]of Israel and Social Security
[1:27:43]was, his income
[1:27:45]was nothing. He was living
[1:27:47]in public housing. And my
[1:27:49]sense was that it wasn't fair.
[1:27:51]So I took care of
[1:27:53]him privately and his
[1:27:55]wife Susie until they both
[1:27:57]died. Did you have any
[1:27:59]knowledge that Mr. Epstein was acting
[1:28:01]as a final decision maker
[1:28:03]for whether or not to spend
[1:28:05]foundation funds?
[1:28:07]Not at all. He would never have done that.
[1:28:09]It does appear to have done it here.
[1:28:11]As a decision maker,
[1:28:13]no, absolutely not.
[1:28:15]I wouldn't
[1:28:17]have not, didn't know it,
[1:28:19]wouldn't have thought it. So this role
[1:28:21]would have, him playing this role would have
[1:28:23]occurred without your knowledge?
[1:28:25]Objection seems in fact not
[1:28:27]in evidence. It happened
[1:28:32]without my knowledge.
[1:28:34]But I did give money
[1:28:36]to my friend Aba Eben
[1:28:38]and his wife Susie.
[1:28:40]I think
[1:28:46]we've had an additional member of Congress
[1:28:48]join us. If that
[1:28:50]individual could identify themselves, please.
[1:28:52]Congressman Steve Lynch
[1:28:54]of the Eighth Congressional
[1:28:56]District of Massachusetts.
[1:29:01]Hello, I'm Les.
[1:29:05]I'd like to spend a little bit of time
[1:29:07]on the development of New Albany
[1:29:09]and I know my colleagues also touched
[1:29:11]on that topic.
[1:29:13]Could you just briefly describe
[1:29:15]for us your role in the development
[1:29:17]of New Albany? I know
[1:29:21]it was substantial, so a brief
[1:29:23]overview.
[1:29:25]It started out
[1:29:27]with me thinking I wanted to live,
[1:29:29]have a house in the country.
[1:29:31]And it began with thinking I would buy an old
[1:29:33]barn and restore it and
[1:29:35]kind of a cool thing.
[1:29:37]And as I worked through the project,
[1:29:39]my personal
[1:29:41]project, I asked
[1:29:43]my friend Jack Kessler, who was a
[1:29:45]professional in the real
[1:29:47]estate business and a developer
[1:29:49]what land cost
[1:29:51]and what he thought
[1:29:53]of the idea. And
[1:29:57]then I got to thinking, do I really
[1:30:00]want to build a barn? And then I thought I'd build
[1:30:02]a house. And I kept telling Jack about
[1:30:04]what I was thinking I was going to do having
[1:30:06]not done anything. And it
[1:30:08]started out pretty modestly. I think I
[1:30:10]bought like a 30-acre farm,
[1:30:12]which is about a mile from here.
[1:30:14]And then
[1:30:16]which I thought was a good location. And over
[1:30:18]time, I kept thinking
[1:30:20]about it, decided that wasn't a good
[1:30:22]location. This was a good location.
[1:30:24]And in the conversations
[1:30:26]with Jack, he kept saying that these are good
[1:30:28]ideas. You're not overpaying for land.
[1:30:30]This was something entirely
[1:30:32]new to me.
[1:30:34]And one day I said, Jack, if it's such a
[1:30:36]good idea, why don't you want to live here?
[1:30:38]And he said, I would, but my wife wouldn't
[1:30:40]move. And then one day he called up.
[1:30:42]He said, she thinks it's a good idea
[1:30:44]and we're going to sell our house and we'll build
[1:30:46]one near yours, which is the house that's
[1:30:48]half a mile away. And
[1:30:50]I said, if we're going to live here, do you think any of our
[1:30:52]friends would want to live out near
[1:30:54]us or acquaintances of his?
[1:30:56]And he said, yeah, I think a lot of people
[1:30:58]would like that, you know, the idea of
[1:31:00]having more land around and it's
[1:31:02]not that far from the airport, stuff like that.
[1:31:04]And
[1:31:08]that's how the idea began.
[1:31:10]And then the next idea was how do you do
[1:31:12]it? And Jack is a
[1:31:14]professional,
[1:31:16]the only professional I know in the real estate
[1:31:18]business, and then shopping center developers
[1:31:20]relied on his
[1:31:22]judgment about prices
[1:31:24]we were paying and acquisitions because
[1:31:26]I had a full-time job and I didn't know
[1:31:28]anything about this.
[1:31:30]And then
[1:31:32]I got to thinking one day, how do you do it?
[1:31:34]I mean, not acquire the land, how do you
[1:31:36]plan it? And I thought there's a lot of
[1:31:38]smart people at Harvard.
[1:31:40]So I made a cold call
[1:31:42]to the School of
[1:31:44]Architecture, talked to the dean. I said, I have
[1:31:46]this idea, you don't know me, could
[1:31:48]you recommend some architects?
[1:31:50]And he said, I don't recommend
[1:31:52]architects to strangers
[1:31:54]and projects I don't know about.
[1:31:56]And we
[1:31:58]talked a while more and he said, if you'll buy a day
[1:32:00]of my time, if you're really serious, I'll come out
[1:32:02]and look at it because I don't know whether you're
[1:32:04]really serious about doing this.
[1:32:06]And then he gave me a list
[1:32:08]of architects and
[1:32:10]I didn't know any of them.
[1:32:12]No, I think I've got the sense of it.
[1:32:16]It kind of just
[1:32:18]grew by topsy.
[1:32:20]I appreciate it. You also touched on
[1:32:22]this earlier, but what was the role of
[1:32:24]the New Albany Company
[1:32:26]in the development of the town
[1:32:28]of New Albany?
[1:32:32]It was just the name of the community,
[1:32:34]so we called it the company
[1:32:36]because we were developing New Albany.
[1:32:38]If we'd developed it in Poughkeepsie,
[1:32:40]we'd call it the Poughkeepsie Company.
[1:32:42]What was
[1:32:44]that, as far as you recall,
[1:32:46]Mr. Epstein's role
[1:32:48]in the development of New Albany?
[1:32:50]None.
[1:32:52]What was his role with the New
[1:32:54]Albany Company?
[1:33:01]As a fiduciary, my financial
[1:33:03]advisor to understand what was going
[1:33:05]on financially.
[1:33:07]I thought I knew what was going on
[1:33:09]in our businesses, but we always
[1:33:11]had a CFO, so I'd
[1:33:13]rely on the CFO to do what the CFO
[1:33:15]did because I did the marketing and the
[1:33:17]planning.
[1:33:23]Every business had a CFO,
[1:33:25]every business had an overview,
[1:33:27]and I had a lot of complexity
[1:33:29]that I didn't realize at the time
[1:33:31]in my life.
[1:33:33]So it was either
[1:33:35]somebody had to do this.
[1:33:37]And there's paper,
[1:33:39]I don't want to throw paper at you
[1:33:41]if I don't have to, but I'll represent
[1:33:43]to you that yourself and Mr. Epstein
[1:33:45]were, at least at one point, co-presidents
[1:33:47]of the New Albany Company.
[1:33:49]I'm happy to show that if that would be
[1:33:51]helpful. But I guess my question
[1:33:53]would be, what would his
[1:33:55]role have been as co-president
[1:33:57]of the New Albany Company?
[1:34:01]I don't remember it, but
[1:34:03]if he did it, it was just, I don't know,
[1:34:05]I was
[1:34:09]the president chairman of the board and then the
[1:34:11]CEO of the company, but I really just
[1:34:13]thought my job was to be the president
[1:34:15]so that the titles wouldn't have
[1:34:17]meant anything to me.
[1:34:19]It is right, I think, you tell
[1:34:21]me that the purpose of the New Albany
[1:34:23]Company was to assist in the
[1:34:25]development of New Albany, is that right?
[1:34:27]It was more than that.
[1:34:29]New Albany was just a farm village.
[1:34:31]And I bought
[1:34:33]land here and developed it.
[1:34:35]Built the schools,
[1:34:37]built the fire station, built the police
[1:34:39]station, did all the community
[1:34:43]public facilities,
[1:34:45]you know, planted streets,
[1:34:47]I can remember, did all the
[1:34:49]drawings. So
[1:34:51]I was the
[1:34:53]master developer of
[1:34:55]New Albany as a community.
[1:34:57]Did the New Albany Company have any
[1:34:59]purpose other than to assist
[1:35:01]in the development of New Albany?
[1:35:03]No.
[1:35:05]Mr. Epstein was at one point
[1:35:07]president of the New Albany Company.
[1:35:09]Objection.
[1:35:11]I think you said he was co-president.
[1:35:13]That's correct, co-president.
[1:35:15]But just so I understand it, your testimony
[1:35:17]is that Mr. Epstein played no
[1:35:19]role in the development of
[1:35:21]New Albany. Absolutely no role.
[1:35:23]I'd like to talk about
[1:35:32]the limited company.
[1:35:34]Was Mr.
[1:35:36]Epstein ever employed by the limited
[1:35:38]company or any of its affiliated
[1:35:40]entities? Ever.
[1:35:42]Did Mr. Epstein
[1:35:44]ever have an informal role with the
[1:35:46]limited company or any of its affiliated
[1:35:48]entities? Ever.
[1:35:50]Did he ever provide any services
[1:35:52]or advice to the company regardless
[1:35:54]of compensation? Not that I
[1:35:57]recall. The Vanity Fair
[1:36:01]article we looked at earlier, I'll
[1:36:03]just relay the anecdote. You're welcome to
[1:36:05]look at it if you want to. But it
[1:36:07]tells a story that in 1996
[1:36:09]the limited was preparing to
[1:36:11]spin off Abercrombie and Fitch
[1:36:13]on the New York Stock Exchange.
[1:36:15]And Epstein reportedly
[1:36:17]flew to Columbus and told your executives
[1:36:19]that he would decide the share
[1:36:21]price. Do you have
[1:36:23]any recollection of that occurring?
[1:36:27]Nailed nothing.
[1:36:29]And the article says that Tom Hopkins,
[1:36:31]who I think was the vice chair
[1:36:33]of the limited at the time,
[1:36:35]told you at that point that Epstein
[1:36:37]was a con man. Do you have any
[1:36:39]recollection of that occurring?
[1:36:41]No. I'll note
[1:36:45]there's been a lot of reporting that
[1:36:47]Mr. Epstein held himself out as
[1:36:49]affiliated with Victoria's Secret.
[1:36:51]We will come back to that topic a little
[1:36:53]bit later. Were there any
[1:36:55]instances at all that you can recall
[1:36:57]in which Epstein got involved
[1:36:59]in the limited business
[1:37:01]affairs? No.
[1:37:08]In terms of Mr. Epstein's
[1:37:10]compensation, how was
[1:37:12]he compensated for his work
[1:37:14]for you?
[1:37:19]I don't specifically recall, but I would guess
[1:37:21]fairly. That should be more
[1:37:23]clear. Was he compensated with
[1:37:25]a salary or
[1:37:27]would it have been investment-based
[1:37:29]or securities or fee-based?
[1:37:31]Do you recall? What was the way in which
[1:37:33]you would compensate him? I don't recall.
[1:37:35]We discussed earlier,
[1:37:41]I think, that the
[1:37:43]breadth of his theft from
[1:37:45]you, I think, has been estimated by
[1:37:47]your counsels to be the hundreds
[1:37:49]of millions. Do you recall
[1:37:51]approximately what Mr. Epstein's
[1:37:53]total compensation would have
[1:37:55]been in his time with you?
[1:37:57]I'm sure I would
[1:37:59]have known them, but I don't recall.
[1:38:01]I'd like to talk about
[1:38:12]Mr. Epstein's misappropriation
[1:38:14]or theft of your
[1:38:16]assets, and so I will introduce
[1:38:18]as exhibit
[1:38:20]E.
[1:38:22]So this is an
[1:38:43]excerpt from a memo
[1:38:45]that the Department of Justice wrote
[1:38:47]in December of 2019,
[1:38:49]and DOJ was
[1:38:51]assessing the extent
[1:38:53]to which people around Epstein
[1:38:55]might have been liable for their
[1:38:57]conduct. The memo
[1:38:59]is long. I will represent, I
[1:39:01]have given you only the excerpt that relates
[1:39:03]to you. There's nothing else in this document
[1:39:05]that relates to you directly.
[1:39:07]The section
[1:39:09]that I've given you on pages,
[1:39:11]on the second and third pages
[1:39:13]of the document,
[1:39:15]65 and 66, at the
[1:39:17]bottom, this is
[1:39:20]a summary of a proper that
[1:39:22]your lawyer or lawyers
[1:39:24]gave to DOJ in
[1:39:26]July of 2019.
[1:39:28]With respect to
[1:39:32]Epstein's theft from you,
[1:39:34]in the
[1:39:36]second half of the second paragraph,
[1:39:38]I'll read it out loud, your
[1:39:40]attorneys, quote, explained
[1:39:42]that over his years handling Wexner's
[1:39:44]finances, Epstein
[1:39:46]stole or otherwise misappropriated
[1:39:48]several hundred million
[1:39:50]dollars from Wexner. That
[1:39:52]misconduct, together with the
[1:39:54]fees that Epstein paid himself
[1:39:56]for his services to Wexner,
[1:39:58]appears to account for virtually
[1:40:00]all of Epstein's
[1:40:02]wealth. So
[1:40:04]several hundred million dollars
[1:40:06]is a large but not precise
[1:40:08]figure. To the best of your
[1:40:10]knowledge, how much exactly
[1:40:12]did Epstein steal?
[1:40:14]I don't know. I don't think
[1:40:16]I'll ever know.
[1:40:20]I'd like to try to understand a little bit
[1:40:22]better how Epstein was able
[1:40:24]to steal or misappropriate
[1:40:26]that many
[1:40:28]funds.
[1:40:30]One way, reportedly, is that
[1:40:32]the trusts
[1:40:34]that we described earlier, which I know you said
[1:40:36]you have no recollection of, I just want to
[1:40:38]be thorough, the trusts
[1:40:40]that he was trustee of would receive
[1:40:42]gifts of limited stock.
[1:40:44]And he would then sell that
[1:40:46]stock on the New York Stock Exchange
[1:40:48]and then use a portion
[1:40:50]of those proceeds for his own
[1:40:52]personal purposes.
[1:40:54]Do you have any knowledge or recollection
[1:40:56]of what I just described?
[1:40:58]I'm f-ing surprised.
[1:41:00]I
[1:41:02]shocked. I didn't know this.
[1:41:04]Is it that you have not previously
[1:41:06]heard what I just described?
[1:41:08]I never heard of it. Never saw the stock
[1:41:10]in it. And it was publicly
[1:41:12]reported, I think, by ABC several
[1:41:14]years ago, but not ever on
[1:41:16]your radar. Never.
[1:41:18]Okay.
[1:41:20]The report indicates that it was
[1:41:22]more than, or
[1:41:24]around, $1.3 billion
[1:41:26]of stock that
[1:41:28]Epstein moved around. That way, not that he
[1:41:30]kept all of that money for himself, but the total
[1:41:32]amount of stock sales was over $1
[1:41:34]billion. You have no knowledge
[1:41:36]or awareness of that.
[1:41:41]I don't know the amounts. The only
[1:41:43]trust that I'm aware of is
[1:41:45]my wife set up
[1:41:47]trusts for our kids.
[1:41:49]So wherever she set them up in the
[1:41:51]amounts, I have no idea what's
[1:41:53]in them then or now.
[1:41:55]And then separately, it's
[1:41:57]been reported that around $20
[1:41:59]million of stock and cash
[1:42:01]were contributed by
[1:42:03]two of your charitable foundations to
[1:42:05]one of Epstein's charities.
[1:42:07]Do you have any knowledge or awareness of that?
[1:42:09]That thing sucked.
[1:42:11]I'm appalled.
[1:42:13]I never heard that.
[1:42:15]Did you know that?
[1:42:21]No.
[1:42:23]Except so.
[1:42:25]Thank you, Sir. We have some additional
[1:42:28]questions and questions from some of
[1:42:30]the members here. I'll start.
[1:42:32]I want to just go back to
[1:42:34]something. Now earlier
[1:42:36]in that position, Sir, you said
[1:42:38]that you were never aware of
[1:42:40]Jeffrey Epstein, orderly Maxwell,
[1:42:42]sexually abusing
[1:42:44]minors or adult women.
[1:42:46]Is that correct?
[1:42:48]I know Jeffrey
[1:42:50]was accused
[1:42:52]by an adult woman of abusing
[1:42:54]her.
[1:42:56]And that's the only
[1:42:58]thing that I knew until
[1:43:00]this shit hit the fan.
[1:43:02]Prior to becoming public knowledge,
[1:43:04]you were never aware of
[1:43:06]Jeffrey Epstein. Absolutely not.
[1:43:08]We have to wait until
[1:43:10]he finishes asking the question.
[1:43:12]The court reporters will get mad at you
[1:43:14]if you don't. Okay. So I think you said
[1:43:16]that you think he said being or not.
[1:43:18]Were you ever aware of Jeffrey Epstein,
[1:43:20]orderly Maxwell, sexually abusing
[1:43:22]men or boys?
[1:43:24]No.
[1:43:26]How about trafficking men or boys?
[1:43:31]No.
[1:43:33]Prior to it becoming public knowledge,
[1:43:35]were you ever aware of Jeffrey Epstein,
[1:43:37]orderly Maxwell, arranging
[1:43:39]for a prominent person to
[1:43:41]have sex with another person?
[1:43:43]Never.
[1:43:45]Can I ask you, Mr. Wexler, were
[1:43:47]you ever with Jeffrey
[1:43:49]Epstein in the presence
[1:43:51]of women or men
[1:43:53]in bathing suits or
[1:43:55]underwear? Never in the presence
[1:44:02]of women or men
[1:44:04]in bathing suits or underwear
[1:44:06]with Mr. Epstein?
[1:44:08]No. If he was at the fashion show,
[1:44:13]if he was at the fashion show,
[1:44:15]he would have seen women in underwear.
[1:44:17]So you're
[1:44:19]saying that if he was
[1:44:21]at a fashion show with you through
[1:44:23]the fashion business, it may have been the case.
[1:44:25]But could it have been
[1:44:27]the case that you were with Mr. Epstein
[1:44:29]maybe prior to the fashion show
[1:44:31]or in another space?
[1:44:33]No. Absolutely not.
[1:44:35]So did any women or
[1:44:37]men ever model clothes for
[1:44:39]you in the presence of Mr.
[1:44:41]Epstein? No.
[1:44:43]So not at a fashion
[1:44:45]show and not in a private home or
[1:44:47]residence?
[1:44:49]Being in the audience of the fashion
[1:44:51]show would have been the only
[1:44:53]possible time. Are you
[1:44:58]aware of any individual that
[1:45:00]has given either
[1:45:02]a public statement
[1:45:04]or any information of anyone
[1:45:06]that has actually said that
[1:45:08]they believe you were
[1:45:10]with Mr. Epstein in the presence
[1:45:12]of women or men
[1:45:14]modeling clothes
[1:45:16]or underwear? I think the answer is
[1:45:23]no, but I'm not sure I understand the question.
[1:45:25]I'll move on.
[1:45:27]Just a direct question for you,
[1:45:29]sir, also. Did you yourself
[1:45:31]ever have
[1:45:33]a sexual encounter with any individual
[1:45:35]that was introduced to you by
[1:45:37]Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell? No.
[1:45:39]Did you personally
[1:45:42]have a sexual relationship
[1:45:44]with Jeffrey Epstein? No.
[1:45:46]Are you aware that
[1:45:51]others have claimed
[1:45:53]that you had a sexual
[1:45:55]relationship with Jeffrey Epstein?
[1:45:57]No. Did you ever
[1:46:01]suspect, sir,
[1:46:03]if Jeffrey Epstein ever
[1:46:05]had any sexual relationships with other
[1:46:07]men? No.
[1:46:09]But you, since
[1:46:12]it being public knowledge, you are now aware
[1:46:14]that Jeffrey Epstein had
[1:46:16]inappropriate sexual relationships with other women. Is
[1:46:18]that correct? Yes, what I know
[1:46:23]from the press, the surveys, yes.
[1:46:25]Okay, thank you. Mr. Sari?
[1:46:27]Thank you.
[1:46:29]I'd like to ask you about
[1:46:31]Epstein's properties and your visits to
[1:46:33]them. Of course, Epstein
[1:46:35]New York and New Albany
[1:46:37]houses were originally yours we
[1:46:39]discussed earlier, and you also had
[1:46:41]a house in Palm Beach, is that correct?
[1:46:43]Objection.
[1:46:45]I think you testified that the house
[1:46:47]in New Albany was Mr. Kessler's.
[1:46:49]I'm just trying to clarify.
[1:46:54]No, thank you. And the house in
[1:46:56]Palm Beach, was there a house that you had in
[1:46:58]Palm Beach, sir?
[1:47:00]I did have a house in
[1:47:02]Palm Beach. Okay. Did you ever
[1:47:04]visit Epstein's home in Palm Beach?
[1:47:06]Once.
[1:47:08]Can you
[1:47:10]tell us about that visit?
[1:47:15]He bought a house in Palm Beach, and
[1:47:17]he wanted
[1:47:19]me to see it. I think he wanted
[1:47:21]me and Abigail to see it.
[1:47:23]And we flew down on
[1:47:25]like a Sunday morning with friends
[1:47:27]of ours from Columbus.
[1:47:31]Walked, looked at the house.
[1:47:33]You know, congratulations.
[1:47:35]Got back on the plane and came home.
[1:47:37]And it was a pretty
[1:47:39]modest house.
[1:47:41]Nothing special. Did you ever
[1:47:43]in that trip, did you ever witness
[1:47:45]Donald Trump at the house?
[1:47:47]No. Do you recall
[1:47:49]any other prominent figures at the Palm Beach
[1:47:51]house? No, it was just
[1:47:53]Jeffrey and my friends.
[1:47:56]Who were the other friends?
[1:47:58]Judy and Steve Tuckerman. Dr.
[1:48:00]Stephen Tuckerman and his wife Judith.
[1:48:02]I'm sure they'll be delighted
[1:48:06]about that. No, they won't be.
[1:48:08]Did you ever
[1:48:10]visit his island in the U.S.
[1:48:12]Virgin Islands? Yes.
[1:48:14]Can you tell us about those visits?
[1:48:16]Yes. Jeffrey
[1:48:18]invited
[1:48:20]us to see
[1:48:22]it. And
[1:48:24]we were on a boat
[1:48:26]and we went to the island with our
[1:48:28]kids. So Abigail, myself
[1:48:30]and I can't remember how many kids
[1:48:32]we had, two, three or four, but at least
[1:48:34]two. Walked around for a while
[1:48:36]and left.
[1:48:38]Probably an hour visit.
[1:48:40]Okay, an hour. So
[1:48:42]on that trip, do you recall seeing any
[1:48:44]prominent figures on the island?
[1:48:46]No. It was a pretty crummy island.
[1:48:48]Okay.
[1:48:50]Did you ever visit his ranch in New Mexico
[1:48:52]or his house in Paris?
[1:48:56]I'm going to break those up for clarity.
[1:48:58]Did you ever visit his ranch in New
[1:49:00]Mexico? It was the same
[1:49:02]thing. You wanted Abigail
[1:49:04]and I to see his ranch. We flew down there
[1:49:06]and drove
[1:49:08]around for an hour or two, got back on
[1:49:10]the plane and came home. And
[1:49:12]I don't think he had a house. So you would
[1:49:14]fly just to go visit for
[1:49:16]one hour? Yeah.
[1:49:18]I would fly to Europe
[1:49:20]for one hour on business trips.
[1:49:22]As crazy it is.
[1:49:24]Getting on the plane when
[1:49:26]places for me was like
[1:49:28]going in the mailbox.
[1:49:30]And he didn't
[1:49:33]have a house on the ranch
[1:49:35]and I never knew he had a house in Paris.
[1:49:37]And in
[1:49:39]the ranch in New Mexico that you spent an hour
[1:49:41]at, were there any prominent figures
[1:49:43]or anyone that you recall else
[1:49:45]being there? No. As I recall, it was just
[1:49:47]Abigail, myself, and I
[1:49:49]think he'd rented a trailer. So it wasn't
[1:49:51]a house.
[1:49:53]That's all I know.
[1:49:55]Okay. And so
[1:49:57]to clarify, you didn't know he had
[1:49:59]a house in Paris or you did not ever go to a house in Paris?
[1:50:01]I didn't
[1:50:03]know he had a house in Paris and
[1:50:05]therefore I didn't go to that house in Paris.
[1:50:07]Okay.
[1:50:09]During any
[1:50:11]of your visits to any of these properties,
[1:50:13]did you ever see
[1:50:15]any girls or women that looked
[1:50:17]unusually young? No.
[1:50:19]Did you ever hear
[1:50:21]rumors of any girls or
[1:50:23]women who looked unusually young visiting
[1:50:25]Epstein's property? No.
[1:50:27]Never did.
[1:50:29]During any visits to Epstein's property,
[1:50:31]did you ever see photographs
[1:50:33]or other images of women or minors?
[1:50:35]Not that I recall.
[1:50:37]Did you ever become aware of
[1:50:41]Epstein transporting women or minors using
[1:50:43]assets that you owned, whether that's
[1:50:45]a plane that you owned or a yacht that you owned?
[1:50:47]Absolutely
[1:50:49]not, no.
[1:50:51]And did you ever hear
[1:50:53]of any rumors related to
[1:50:55]Epstein's personal life or his sexual
[1:50:57]activities? No.
[1:51:01]Rumors that you may have heard
[1:51:03]in the break-by?
[1:51:10]It's kind of ambiguous.
[1:51:12]I'll
[1:51:14]answer you. I think you're
[1:51:16]asking an ambiguous question.
[1:51:20]I would go to
[1:51:22]visit David Gergen at Harvard.
[1:51:24]I was very interested
[1:51:26]in the center of public
[1:51:28]leadership. And
[1:51:30]David would say Jeffrey was up here,
[1:51:32]your friend Jeffrey was up here,
[1:51:34]and he was visiting Henry Grossovsky,
[1:51:36]who was the Dean of Harvard College, or he was
[1:51:38]visiting Larry Summers, and he always
[1:51:40]has an admin with him, or
[1:51:42]a girl, and he says he never,
[1:51:44]a woman, maybe more accurate,
[1:51:46]he never travels by himself.
[1:51:50]And I think that's what I'm referring
[1:51:52]to. I don't think I'd get through a day without
[1:51:54]hearing a rumor about somebody, so
[1:51:56]I imagine somebody close to you
[1:51:58]probably heard.
[1:52:00]No, but it wasn't, it was more like he
[1:52:02]was traveling with his admin
[1:52:04]or his secretary or his
[1:52:06]lady lawyer or his lady accountant.
[1:52:08]That's what I would hear.
[1:52:10]But it wasn't,
[1:52:12]I never heard rumors
[1:52:14]about
[1:52:16]Jeffrey was traveling around
[1:52:18]with a girlfriend for this, or
[1:52:20]a girl. It was like
[1:52:22]it was part of his, I don't know,
[1:52:24]social visits or something.
[1:52:26]It was always, if I heard, it was
[1:52:28]in reference to work,
[1:52:30]his work.
[1:52:32]Okay, thank you.
[1:52:34]Ms. Crockett?
[1:52:36]Yes, thank you.
[1:52:38]I actually want to start
[1:52:40]in a little bit of a different place really quickly.
[1:52:42]Dr. Mark
[1:52:44]Landon. Are you familiar with him?
[1:52:46]Dr. Mark Landon?
[1:52:48]Yes.
[1:52:50]He was paid by Epstein
[1:52:52]on your behalf to consult
[1:52:54]on biomedical investments, is that
[1:52:56]correct? I just
[1:52:59]heard about that. I didn't know that
[1:53:01]until maybe
[1:53:03]the last few days.
[1:53:05]Okay, so with you
[1:53:07]knowing Dr. Mark Landon,
[1:53:09]are you aware
[1:53:11]as to whether or not Dr. Landon
[1:53:13]ever was paid to render
[1:53:15]medical services to
[1:53:17]any of the alleged victims
[1:53:19]of GFC?
[1:53:21]No.
[1:53:23]What is your relationship with Dr.
[1:53:25]Landon? Abigail had
[1:53:31]a complicated pregnancy
[1:53:33]and
[1:53:35]their general
[1:53:37]obstetrician, I believe
[1:53:39]referred her to Mark Landon.
[1:53:41]He is an obstetrician.
[1:53:43]And that's how I
[1:53:45]met him, and he delivered
[1:53:47]our children.
[1:53:49]Okay. So our relationship,
[1:53:51]my relationship with him is my
[1:53:53]wife's doctor. Did you ever
[1:53:55]introduce him to Jeffrey Epstein?
[1:53:57]No.
[1:53:59]Okay. All right.
[1:54:01]Did you ever
[1:54:03]spend time with Epstein and
[1:54:05]Donald Trump? Together?
[1:54:09]Yes. I want to answer this question
[1:54:21]accurately. I would go to some of the
[1:54:25]Victoria's Secret fashion shows,
[1:54:27]because they're very important to the brand.
[1:54:29]At some of the fashion shows, Jeffrey was there
[1:54:31]and at some, Trump was there.
[1:54:33]And I remembered, because Trump would always introduce
[1:54:35]himself to me.
[1:54:37]I always thought it was kind of odd
[1:54:39]that he was at the fashion show,
[1:54:41]because he had nothing to do with fashion.
[1:54:43]So the coincidence
[1:54:45]of them being together
[1:54:47]at an event,
[1:54:49]it could have been that, but I have
[1:54:51]no specific recollection.
[1:54:53]I never had a social
[1:54:55]or like a drink or a cup of coffee,
[1:54:57]something
[1:54:59]that
[1:55:01]would put them together.
[1:55:03]Okay. So just to clarify, because I want
[1:55:05]to make sure we're clear on the record.
[1:55:07]You're saying that you can recall
[1:55:09]instances potentially where
[1:55:11]Epstein and Trump were together
[1:55:13]and you were in their presence?
[1:55:15]Or just a random
[1:55:17]scenario where Epstein may be there,
[1:55:19]Trump may be there separately,
[1:55:21]and then you would be?
[1:55:23]It would be at random. That would be accurate.
[1:55:25]If it happened, but
[1:55:27]I have no specific recollection.
[1:55:29]Okay.
[1:55:31]Did you ever see
[1:55:35]or become aware of
[1:55:37]President Trump having a
[1:55:39]sexual relationship with a person
[1:55:41]who was introduced to him by
[1:55:43]Epstein or Maxwell?
[1:55:45]Nope.
[1:55:48]Has Donald Trump ever
[1:55:50]discussed Jeffrey Epstein
[1:55:52]with you?
[1:55:54]Nope. Did Jeffrey Epstein
[1:55:59]ever discuss Donald Trump with you?
[1:56:01]He would name drop it.
[1:56:11]So he would say things like
[1:56:13]I know President Clinton
[1:56:15]or I know the Pope or I know God
[1:56:17]or I know you.
[1:56:19]It was that kind of name dropping
[1:56:21]but never,
[1:56:24]I can't remember a specific place,
[1:56:26]but Jeffrey dropped a lot of names.
[1:56:28]Okay. So to clarify,
[1:56:30]you believe
[1:56:32]he specifically dropped
[1:56:34]Donald Trump's name?
[1:56:36]No. I'm saying it could have
[1:56:38]been remembered.
[1:56:40]Did Epstein ever share
[1:56:42]any information with you about
[1:56:44]Donald Trump's sexual
[1:56:46]activities? No.
[1:56:48]Do you have a relationship with Donald Trump?
[1:56:50]No.
[1:56:54]But you've met him before?
[1:57:00]He introduced himself to me
[1:57:02]at the fashion show a couple
[1:57:04]of times
[1:57:06]but I wouldn't say hello,
[1:57:08]how are you?
[1:57:10]Like you say met.
[1:57:12]We knew each other.
[1:57:14]We don't know each other. He wouldn't.
[1:57:16]I'd be shocked if he remembered me.
[1:57:18]Okay. And I know that
[1:57:20]you specifically mentioned the island
[1:57:22]that you have been to.
[1:57:24]Jeffrey's island.
[1:57:26]Do you recall seeing any of those
[1:57:28]persons that Jeffrey Epstein
[1:57:30]name dropped while you were
[1:57:32]on his island?
[1:57:34]Nobody was there.
[1:57:36]Abigail, myself, Jeffrey,
[1:57:38]maybe somebody cutting
[1:57:40]grass or something. There was a maintenance
[1:57:42]person I think.
[1:57:44]I don't specifically recall.
[1:57:46]I know for sure I was there.
[1:57:48]Abigail was there. Jeffrey was there.
[1:57:50]And there wasn't anything abnormal
[1:57:52]about the appearance
[1:57:54]of the
[1:57:56]home
[1:57:58]on the island or
[1:58:00]and the reason that I asked just to give you clarification
[1:58:02]on what I mean by
[1:58:04]abnormal. We've heard
[1:58:06]reports of people
[1:58:08]being thrown off when they
[1:58:10]walked into his home in New York
[1:58:12]because there was a massage
[1:58:14]table that was just sitting randomly
[1:58:16]in the middle of a room.
[1:58:18]Did you see anything like that
[1:58:20]when you visited any property
[1:58:22]that belonged to Jeffrey Epstein?
[1:58:24]Well, first to clarify,
[1:58:29]when we visited the island,
[1:58:31]there was like
[1:58:33]a Pueblo building like
[1:58:35]maybe a one room and a
[1:58:37]bathroom or something. It was pretty crummy.
[1:58:39]And the island was
[1:58:41]crummy.
[1:58:43]There were no trees. There was no sand. There was no beach.
[1:58:45]It was just kind of a peculiar
[1:58:47]thing. It was an island, but it was like a pile
[1:58:49]of rocks. It was just
[1:58:51]I was kind of shocked that
[1:58:53]it was, that anybody
[1:58:55]would buy it for any
[1:58:57]purpose.
[1:58:59]As far as seeing things,
[1:59:01]I never was in the house.
[1:59:03]It is a house in New
[1:59:05]York.
[1:59:07]At the house in Florida, we were there after he bought it
[1:59:09]because I mentioned what the couple said.
[1:59:11]Never saw a massage
[1:59:13]table or
[1:59:15]anything.
[1:59:17]Thank you.
[1:59:19]Thank you so much.
[1:59:21]Thank you, Mr. Weisner, for
[1:59:23]your ability to answer a lot of questions.
[1:59:25]I think when you meet the survivors,
[1:59:27]it becomes incredibly personal, especially
[1:59:29]for women on this committee. So
[1:59:31]I appreciate it. But I'd like to introduce the exhibit.
[1:59:33]I believe it's F.
[1:59:35]The article is titled Jeffery
[1:59:37]Epstein Made Regular Payments to Ohio State
[1:59:39]Head of Gynecology Record
[1:59:41]Show, which is from a local affiliate.
[1:59:43]It's dated February 10, 2026.
[1:59:45]We'll be able to get it to you.
[1:59:47]It's about Dr. Landon. I know they're passing
[1:59:59]it out, but Mr. Weisner
[2:00:01]in the article explains that recent
[2:00:03]Department of Justice files indicate
[2:00:05]that in early 2000, Epstein
[2:00:07]was making quarterly payments
[2:00:09]to Dr. Michael Landon,
[2:00:11]who is the OBGYN and the chair
[2:00:13]of the OBGYN Life Department
[2:00:15]at Ohio State University.
[2:00:17]And you said that your wife
[2:00:19]received services from Dr. Landon, so
[2:00:21]you know him.
[2:00:23]Dr. Landon said the payments
[2:00:25]were consulting services.
[2:00:27]He provided for New York Strategy Group,
[2:00:29]which was some kind of firm
[2:00:31]associated with Epstein.
[2:00:33]Do you know why
[2:00:35]he was getting paid the quarterly payment by
[2:00:37]Epstein?
[2:00:39]Do you know if there is
[2:00:41]protocol and services being offered to Epstein
[2:00:43]for victims,
[2:00:45]women?
[2:00:47]No idea.
[2:00:49]Because you're very associated with
[2:00:51]Ohio State University, right?
[2:00:53]Yes.
[2:00:55]Were you aware that Jeffrey Epstein
[2:00:57]was paying him quarterly payments?
[2:00:59]No. You weren't? No.
[2:01:01]Okay, so the article
[2:01:03]suggests that Epstein would bill you and your wife
[2:01:05]for at least
[2:01:07]one of these payments in 20
[2:01:09]quote, as we have in prior
[2:01:11]years. That's evidence
[2:01:13]within the Department of Justice, Mr. Wexner.
[2:01:15]Were you
[2:01:17]aware of these 25,000
[2:01:19]quarterly payments coming from your accounts
[2:01:21]in 2005 and earlier?
[2:01:23]Not until this moment.
[2:01:25]You know, Mr. Wexner,
[2:01:27]I'm watching this all unfold and I just
[2:01:29]want you to know it's incredibly hard
[2:01:31]for people
[2:01:33]to
[2:01:35]understand you don't know this.
[2:01:37]Maybe you don't know specific details.
[2:01:39]Maybe you don't know the dollar
[2:01:41]amounts. But Epstein was
[2:01:43]able to be empowered and enabled to hurt
[2:01:45]more people with your money.
[2:01:47]You understand that?
[2:01:49]Oh yeah, he's a crook.
[2:01:51]I know.
[2:01:53]But you don't know the purpose of the payment
[2:01:55]and the money's coming from you. It's your money.
[2:01:57]And you don't know why he's paying
[2:01:59]a doctor at Ohio State University.
[2:02:01]Sadly, I don't. Did you introduce
[2:02:03]him to Dr. Landon? No.
[2:02:05]How did he meet Dr. Landon?
[2:02:07]I wouldn't know that he met him.
[2:02:09]Your wife
[2:02:11]received services from Dr. Michael
[2:02:13]Landon. Yes, and so
[2:02:15]did my daughter.
[2:02:17]So was it a routine practice for the
[2:02:19]New York State Strategy Group's
[2:02:21]expenses to be paid by your
[2:02:23]accounts? I never heard of it.
[2:02:25]It's weird because it's your money going
[2:02:27]in to pay for this consulting services
[2:02:29]of another company. It's weird to me
[2:02:34]too. So Dr. Landon never talked to you
[2:02:36]about these. Never.
[2:02:38]Never.
[2:02:40]Something
[2:02:42]else that comes up because
[2:02:44]one of the claims that you're saying are you're not close
[2:02:46]friends and everything. You know, some of us
[2:02:48]have access to the redacted
[2:02:50]emails. Some of us already, I think majority of us
[2:02:52]have gone down there.
[2:02:54]There is constant claims from
[2:02:56]survivors. Again, they're redacted from
[2:02:58]some of the communication directly with Maxwell
[2:03:00]or directly with other
[2:03:02]women that were helping in that scheme.
[2:03:04]And your name comes up synonymously
[2:03:06]sometimes with requesting
[2:03:08]did you know that?
[2:03:10]I know it now. Well, they also
[2:03:12]said that you were lovers.
[2:03:14]I know it's nothing
[2:03:16]to be ashamed of. I just want you to
[2:03:18]know. No, it's nothing
[2:03:20]to be ashamed of. But it would explain
[2:03:22]I think the closeness
[2:03:24]that everyone consistently says. No
[2:03:26]one ever says you're
[2:03:28]not close. Is that like everyone
[2:03:30]says that you had a close relationship
[2:03:32]that you and
[2:03:34]Epstein were close friends. Did you
[2:03:36]know that? Objection here, say.
[2:03:38]Okay. I think
[2:03:40]Mr. Wexner, could you provide
[2:03:42]us with the name of every registered
[2:03:44]legal entity? And this is important because
[2:03:46]if you don't know now, then give us the information.
[2:03:48]Help us find the people that group the girls
[2:03:50]with your money.
[2:03:52]I'm asking and urging you to, please.
[2:03:54]You started your business
[2:03:56]with your AIDA's money.
[2:03:58]You don't want your legacy to be not just
[2:04:00]Epstein, but Dr. what is the guy's other name?
[2:04:02]Dr. Richard Strauss?
[2:04:04]Richard Strauss who also
[2:04:06]the, well, it doesn't matter.
[2:04:08]You were chair of Ohio State University.
[2:04:10]You were the board chair at the
[2:04:12]time that he or other women
[2:04:14]athletes on campus.
[2:04:16]This is to say to you,
[2:04:18]it's not only one person that hurt
[2:04:20]women, but now
[2:04:22]two that are affiliated with you directly.
[2:04:24]And I just want to urge you
[2:04:26]that if you don't know the answers to this, follow up
[2:04:28]with our committee. Give us the information so we can
[2:04:30]find out who hurt the women and
[2:04:32]who benefited from it.
[2:04:34]So could you provide us with the name of every
[2:04:36]registered legal entity of which you were
[2:04:38]the beneficial owner between the start
[2:04:40]of your relationship with Mr. Epstein
[2:04:42]and his death?
[2:04:44]Can you provide that to the committee, sir?
[2:04:46]I would provide you with everything and anything I
[2:04:48]could to nail it.
[2:04:50]Where they were registered
[2:04:52]and the date of registration and the names of
[2:04:54]whoever acted as the agent of those entities.
[2:04:56]Can I request that
[2:04:58]you just put that request in writing
[2:05:00]and direct it to me
[2:05:02]and we will take
[2:05:04]it and respond to it.
[2:05:06]And it's important because Mr. Wexner,
[2:05:08]so you know the women that survivors
[2:05:10]told us to follow the money consistently.
[2:05:12]The other question
[2:05:14]and this will be my last.
[2:05:16]You claim
[2:05:18]that you have been a victim
[2:05:20]and defrauded by Epstein, correct?
[2:05:22]Correct.
[2:05:24]Why didn't you
[2:05:26]file charges, go after him?
[2:05:28]He used money to hurt girls
[2:05:30]and probably young men.
[2:05:32]Why didn't you do anything
[2:05:34]to recruit your name
[2:05:36]which has been
[2:05:38]synonymous with Epstein?
[2:05:40]Do you know your name comes up in the
[2:05:42]emails among
[2:05:44]victims who never met you
[2:05:46]but your name was used
[2:05:48]consistently?
[2:05:50]I'm not sure I understand what the question did.
[2:05:52]Why didn't you file any charges against
[2:05:54]Epstein if you congealed
[2:05:56]of $200 million that we know of?
[2:05:58]Why didn't you go after him?
[2:06:00]At the time I didn't know.
[2:06:02]When you found out
[2:06:04]why didn't you go after him?
[2:06:09]Is it because he was a good friend?
[2:06:11]No.
[2:06:15]My dad is probably laughing.
[2:06:17]One of the things
[2:06:19]my dad told me that you don't get a pissing contest
[2:06:21]with an elephant
[2:06:23]and running a public company for a long time.
[2:06:25]I'm not good at public relations
[2:06:27]or financial public relations.
[2:06:29]And so I would answer
[2:06:31]questions to
[2:06:33]analysts. I'd call people up and I'd tell them
[2:06:35]the truth. And what I learned
[2:06:37]in the course of my business career
[2:06:39]is whether it was my
[2:06:41]chief of staff, the company lawyer,
[2:06:43]personal lawyers, what should
[2:06:45]I do? And the advice is
[2:06:47]let us handle it.
[2:06:49]You don't want to get ahead of this.
[2:06:51]So I'm happy
[2:06:53]that today is happening
[2:06:55]because I want to help
[2:06:57]and I would do everything I can
[2:06:59]to
[2:07:01]nail that son of a bitch.
[2:07:03]Please let him
[2:07:05]finish.
[2:07:07]And I can't tell you
[2:07:11]how much I value my
[2:07:13]own ethics, my own moral
[2:07:15]compass, that it has a true north.
[2:07:17]And what I think
[2:07:19]happened, now
[2:07:21]I'm knowing about all the cons,
[2:07:23]is that Jeffrey would tell somebody
[2:07:25]that they were me
[2:07:27]or this was somebody else.
[2:07:29]You and I have never met.
[2:07:31]I don't recognize you, but
[2:07:33]you're a congresswoman.
[2:07:35]Yeah, I never met you, but
[2:07:37]you're all over the emails.
[2:07:39]I presume you're a congresswoman
[2:07:41]and I presume
[2:07:43]you're not a man in women's clothing.
[2:07:45]I don't know what I didn't know.
[2:07:51]You know now, we can do something about it.
[2:07:53]Oh yeah.
[2:07:55]So Wexner claims, you claim that you cut ties
[2:07:57]with Epstein 07, right?
[2:07:59]Okay.
[2:08:01]But you emailed Epstein, quote
[2:08:03]Abigail told me
[2:08:05]the response, all I can say is I feel
[2:08:07]sorry. You violated
[2:08:09]your own number one rule.
[2:08:11]Always be careful, end of the quote.
[2:08:13]That was an email in 2008, Mr.
[2:08:15]Wexner. I know.
[2:08:18]I'm letting you know that the public knows.
[2:08:20]Hopefully, I was giving him the finger.
[2:08:26]Could the FBI
[2:08:28]or Department of Justice
[2:08:30]ever directly speak to you
[2:08:32]about Epstein or Maxwell?
[2:08:34]Has the FBI or DOJ ever
[2:08:36]directly contacted you or spoken to you
[2:08:38]about Epstein or Maxwell?
[2:08:40]Never.
[2:08:42]And then finally, would you consider
[2:08:44]Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein
[2:08:46]friends or friendly? Would you
[2:08:48]identify them that way in the information that you have?
[2:08:50]I think it's really two questions.
[2:08:58]Would I think they
[2:09:00]were friends? No.
[2:09:02]Jeffrey Epstein
[2:09:04]held him out as a
[2:09:06]friend. Great, thank you.
[2:09:08]We can go
[2:09:10]off the record. We'll get back on the
[2:09:17]record. What's that?
[2:09:19]That is a microphone.
[2:09:21]Mr. Wexner, it is
[2:09:23]1-17 in the afternoon.
[2:09:25]Our
[2:09:27]minority colleagues touched on
[2:09:29]a lot of different subject areas, and
[2:09:31]I just want to go back through and
[2:09:33]parse out some things.
[2:09:35]First, though,
[2:09:37]I want to enter as Exhibit
[2:09:39]5, the
[2:09:41]letter from
[2:09:43]LESS. This document is titled
[2:10:07]Letter from LESS,
[2:10:09]general news directed to
[2:10:11]the Wexner Foundation community.
[2:10:13]I will stipulate to you
[2:10:15]there's no date on here. The data was
[2:10:17]posted on the website was August 8,
[2:10:19]2019. Do you guys have any reason
[2:10:21]to dispute that?
[2:10:25]In this letter that
[2:10:27]you wrote in August
[2:10:29]of 2019, you mentioned
[2:10:31]that you had
[2:10:33]that Mr. Epstein had various well-known
[2:10:35]respected individuals as financial
[2:10:37]clients and in his inner
[2:10:39]circle. My question to you is
[2:10:41]could you elaborate a little bit to
[2:10:43]who some of those financial
[2:10:45]clients were that you were aware of?
[2:10:47]Well,
[2:10:49]it says Epstein
[2:10:51]represented that he had that. He wouldn't
[2:10:53]know if he did or not. Were you aware
[2:10:55]of any of Mr. Epstein's other clients?
[2:10:57]Let me think.
[2:11:15]Well, specifically, I talked to Ellie
[2:11:17]De Rothschild, and so I mentioned
[2:11:19]that earlier.
[2:11:21]So he
[2:11:23]represented their whole families that had been
[2:11:25]a whole bunch of people.
[2:11:27]Most of them I never would have met, but
[2:11:29]I knew Ellie.
[2:11:31]I never
[2:11:36]met
[2:11:38]people, but there
[2:11:40]were people that called me
[2:11:42]that
[2:11:44]either insinuated,
[2:11:48]said they knew Jeffrey
[2:11:50]through a financial relationship.
[2:11:54]So they could have been actors,
[2:11:58]but at the time,
[2:12:00]a guy calls me up,
[2:12:02]I'll give you an example.
[2:12:04]It's just
[2:12:06]a question. No, no, because I want you to understand, it's
[2:12:08]so confusing to me. He
[2:12:10]would say, like, I'm providing
[2:12:12]financial advice to the founders of Google.
[2:12:14]I'm
[2:12:16]providing financial advice to Jeff
[2:12:18]Bezos. I'm
[2:12:20]providing financial
[2:12:22]advice for the
[2:12:24]chief technologist at Google.
[2:12:26]I'm in good company
[2:12:28]because these are really smart guys with a lot of
[2:12:30]money. And you have
[2:12:32]to put yourself
[2:12:34]in the mindset of
[2:12:36]if my attorney
[2:12:38]said, you know, he
[2:12:40]was qualified to argue in
[2:12:42]front of the Supreme Court, I'd believe him. I didn't
[2:12:44]call the Supreme Court and say,
[2:12:46]tell me,
[2:12:48]is he really an attorney or did he do
[2:12:50]this? And I'd get a phone call from
[2:12:52]someone like a guy named Meyerwald.
[2:12:54]He said he was the chief
[2:12:56]technologist of Google. You know, Jeffrey
[2:12:58]has been helping me. He's financial advisor.
[2:13:00]I told Jeffrey I was building a boat.
[2:13:02]He told me to call you.
[2:13:04]I said I never built a
[2:13:06]boat because I hadn't.
[2:13:08]But if I wanted to build a boat,
[2:13:10]I would go to Fedship because reputationally
[2:13:12]they're the best boat builders.
[2:13:14]Then,
[2:13:16]you know,
[2:13:18]it was,
[2:13:20]that's the part that is so
[2:13:22]embarrassing is what a commie was.
[2:13:24]And if you,
[2:13:26]I don't know, you believe you're
[2:13:28]your priest or your minister. Your rabbi is
[2:13:30]what they are. You believe them.
[2:13:32]It was mostly phone
[2:13:34]calls that people would say
[2:13:36]or if you'd bump into
[2:13:38]somebody,
[2:13:40]Jeffrey's my advisor or Jeffrey's
[2:13:42]talked to me about stuff or Jeffrey's
[2:13:44]helped me with
[2:13:46]financial things. I can't remember
[2:13:48]specifically.
[2:13:50]But as I look back at it, it was part of the
[2:13:52]con. So
[2:13:54]I never met Meyerwald.
[2:13:56]Can I have one second?
[2:13:58]Because I think it will move this thing along a little faster.
[2:14:04]Just answer the
[2:14:06]question.
[2:14:08]Mr. Wexner,
[2:14:10]you mentioned some of these
[2:14:12]phone calls from other individuals
[2:14:14]boasting about their ties with Mr.
[2:14:16]Epstein.
[2:14:18]Do you have a recollection of when most of these
[2:14:20]would have occurred, these phone calls?
[2:14:24]Pretty regularly.
[2:14:26]Specifically, I can't remember any.
[2:14:28]I don't understand.
[2:14:30]In
[2:14:32]majority exhibit
[2:14:34]three,
[2:14:37]your
[2:14:39]statement from this morning,
[2:14:41]your written statement from this morning,
[2:14:43]you mentioned on
[2:14:45]the second
[2:14:47]page, I believe it is,
[2:14:49]second paragraph,
[2:14:51]approximately middle of the paragraph
[2:14:53]that you consulted Ace Greenberg
[2:14:55]and Jimmy Kane of Bear
[2:14:57]Stearns, Epstein's former
[2:14:59]employer. Did I read that
[2:15:01]correctly? Correct.
[2:15:03]What did you reach out to
[2:15:05]Mr. Greenberg and Mr. Kane about at Bear
[2:15:07]Stearns with regard to Mr. Epstein?
[2:15:09]Checking references.
[2:15:11]And as far as
[2:15:13]checking those references, did
[2:15:15]anything come up
[2:15:17]surprising to you
[2:15:19]about Mr. Epstein's background?
[2:15:21]All positive.
[2:15:23]And
[2:15:27]you also mentioned,
[2:15:29]let me take a step back,
[2:15:31]Bear Stearns has mentioned
[2:15:35]and previously reported
[2:15:37]that Mr. Epstein
[2:15:39]didn't have a degree or some of the proper
[2:15:41]qualifications for his job there. Did you
[2:15:43]have any reason to doubt
[2:15:45]the qualifications of Mr. Epstein when it
[2:15:47]related to being your financial advisor?
[2:15:51]I don't recall any question
[2:15:53]that
[2:15:55]he had a degree. I
[2:15:57]don't remember asking the question.
[2:15:59]And so going off of that,
[2:16:01]other than making
[2:16:03]some phone calls to some individuals,
[2:16:05]did you ever formally check in to
[2:16:07]Mr. Epstein's past?
[2:16:11]Not beyond
[2:16:13]talking to
[2:16:15]the people I
[2:16:17]mentioned.
[2:16:19]Understood.
[2:16:21]You also state, sorry to
[2:16:23]jump back and forth, the letter from the last
[2:16:25]exhibit five,
[2:16:27]that same paragraph,
[2:16:29]the third
[2:16:31]one in the middle there, the last
[2:16:33]sentence after the comma says, I believed I
[2:16:35]could trust him. What about him
[2:16:37]meeting Mr. Epstein? Did you, did
[2:16:39]he do that you
[2:16:41]thought you could trust him? Put
[2:16:53]him in a position of trust. He was
[2:16:55]a fiduciary. It was to
[2:16:57]act in my interest.
[2:16:59]And I trusted that he could do that.
[2:17:01]And you, your trust
[2:17:08]in him came before he actually handled any of
[2:17:10]your finances. Is that correct?
[2:17:12]Correct.
[2:17:14]Because initially
[2:17:16]he was like a friend of a friend who
[2:17:18]I perceived as being skilled
[2:17:20]to review Harold's work.
[2:17:22]Understood.
[2:17:24]Moving along a little bit,
[2:17:26]you may have touched on this
[2:17:28]with our minority colleagues.
[2:17:30]What was the rough
[2:17:32]portfolio that Mr. Epstein was handling
[2:17:34]for you? Probably all my person
[2:17:39]finance houses,
[2:17:41]equipment, cars, just
[2:17:43]inventorying of stuff.
[2:17:45]This stuff,
[2:17:49]all the financial things that someone would handle
[2:17:51]outside of their business.
[2:17:53]I'd have someone
[2:17:56]do because it was so much stuff.
[2:18:00]And
[2:18:03]your previous, your
[2:18:05]financial advisor
[2:18:07]previous to Mr. Epstein, did
[2:18:09]that individual have power of attorney?
[2:18:13]I don't specifically remember
[2:18:15]it, but I think he did.
[2:18:17]And Mr. Epstein
[2:18:19]did have power of attorney over your financial
[2:18:21]matters? Yep. As did
[2:18:23]Dennis. And why did
[2:18:25]this become your practice to give them power
[2:18:27]of attorney?
[2:18:34]So busy traveling so much.
[2:18:36]The papers had to be signed.
[2:18:38]Tax returns filed.
[2:18:40]People had to act on my
[2:18:42]behalf. So many things to sign.
[2:18:44]I needed to have
[2:18:46]somebody
[2:18:48]to do that.
[2:18:50]Understood.
[2:18:55]How involved were you
[2:18:57]with Mr. Epstein's determinations
[2:18:59]over your finances? Did you have any involvement?
[2:19:01]What determinations?
[2:19:05]More of like a, did
[2:19:07]you have any oversight of
[2:19:09]what Mr. Epstein was doing as
[2:19:11]your financial advisor?
[2:19:13]I'm sure he did at the time,
[2:19:15]yeah. And
[2:19:17]did he bring every decision to you?
[2:19:19]Some decisions to you? What did that
[2:19:21]look like? I don't
[2:19:23]know.
[2:19:25]I
[2:19:27]was running a
[2:19:29]20 division business
[2:19:31]in community responsibility. So if he asked
[2:19:33]me what the president of the university
[2:19:35]brought to me or what the head of
[2:19:37]the foundation, I can't remember, but I
[2:19:39]was involved in everything, except
[2:19:41]just a lot of stuff.
[2:19:43]So is
[2:19:49]it a fair characterization of your testimony
[2:19:51]that Mr. Epstein
[2:19:53]had pretty wide latitude
[2:19:55]over your financial affairs?
[2:19:57]Yes.
[2:19:59]It's fair, pretty wide.
[2:20:05]And Mr. Epstein had access to your
[2:20:07]personal bank accounts, is that correct?
[2:20:09]I don't recall.
[2:20:11]Do you recall if he had access to any
[2:20:13]of your business bank accounts?
[2:20:15]I'm sure he wouldn't.
[2:20:17]Did Mr. Epstein
[2:20:21]ever ask you to lend him money for any
[2:20:23]reason? Did Mr. Epstein ever make
[2:20:27]any attempt to blackmail you for any
[2:20:29]reason? No.
[2:20:38]Did Mr. Epstein's control over your
[2:20:40]personal finances
[2:20:42]extend to any decisions that
[2:20:44]affected the rest of your family members?
[2:20:55]It's like
[2:20:57]I want to say no,
[2:20:59]but I know that he was involved
[2:21:01]with the Children's Trust because I learned that
[2:21:03]today, or
[2:21:05]what he did that I didn't know
[2:21:07]that would have been personal. I don't
[2:21:09]know what I don't know.
[2:21:11]But to my knowledge, he wouldn't
[2:21:13]have in a civilian way
[2:21:15]been involved.
[2:21:17]And just to clarify
[2:21:19]to your testimony earlier
[2:21:21]about setting up
[2:21:23]trust for your children,
[2:21:25]was Mr. Epstein
[2:21:27]who helped set up the trust
[2:21:29]for your children? I don't recall.
[2:21:33]Did he handle, did Mr. Epstein
[2:21:37]handle any other financial decisions
[2:21:39]in regard to your children?
[2:21:41]Not that I'm aware of.
[2:21:48]Sorry, going to
[2:21:50]switch gears a little bit here
[2:21:52]about your foundation.
[2:21:54]Why ultimately did
[2:21:56]Mr. Epstein become a trustee of your foundation?
[2:21:58]Just convenience
[2:22:02]for signing documents,
[2:22:04]financial oversight,
[2:22:08]not
[2:22:10]anything that
[2:22:12]would be the operation of the foundation,
[2:22:14]its purpose or review of people.
[2:22:16]It was just
[2:22:18]part of the complexity of my
[2:22:20]personal life.
[2:22:22]And
[2:22:25]forgive my ignorance,
[2:22:27]you have usually
[2:22:29]board members of foundations
[2:22:31]and separately trustee members. Is that
[2:22:33]an accurate statement?
[2:22:41]I wish I
[2:22:43]had that in mind too. I think we just
[2:22:45]had trustees.
[2:22:49]And just
[2:22:53]to clarify,
[2:22:55]Mr. Epstein,
[2:22:57]did he receive any compensation for his role
[2:22:59]on the board of the Wexner Foundation?
[2:23:01]Not to my knowledge.
[2:23:03]Do you recall who
[2:23:11]Mr. Epstein replaced on the board
[2:23:13]or how that board seat
[2:23:15]became available to him?
[2:23:17]No.
[2:23:21]Did your mother used to be a member of
[2:23:23]the foundation board?
[2:23:25]I think so.
[2:23:27]And was
[2:23:29]due to circumstances, was
[2:23:31]she forced to step down from the board?
[2:23:33]No.
[2:23:37]She left her
[2:23:39]board position willingly.
[2:23:57]Can you describe in a little bit
[2:23:59]more detail the circumstances for why your
[2:24:01]mother left the board of the Wexner Foundation?
[2:24:03]Age.
[2:24:21]Mr. Wexner,
[2:24:23]what sort of materials did you use to
[2:24:25]prepare for today's deposition?
[2:24:27]I'm going to object to anything that council
[2:24:29]showed him. That's my work product.
[2:24:31]Anything you reviewed on his own, he's welcome to testify about.
[2:24:35]A few documents and
[2:24:39]some advice.
[2:24:41]Just answer questions.
[2:24:43]Don't discuss
[2:24:45]what your attorney
[2:24:47]told you.
[2:24:49]Say it again.
[2:24:51]I want to be honest.
[2:24:53]Excuse me.
[2:24:55]What documents or other materials did you
[2:24:57]use in preparation for today's deposition?
[2:24:59]Other than anything that your lawyer
[2:25:01]showed you.
[2:25:05]Are you aware of any
[2:25:07]litigation from your mother
[2:25:09]and the Wexner Foundation about
[2:25:11]her stepping down from the board?
[2:25:13]No.
[2:25:19]Was there ever
[2:25:21]any pressure from Mr.
[2:25:23]Epstein to keep his position
[2:25:25]on the foundation's board?
[2:25:27]No.
[2:25:37]When you were
[2:25:39]in the, I'll call it the prime
[2:25:41]of your career as a CEO
[2:25:43]over your company's incorporation,
[2:25:47]would you say that you were heavily involved
[2:25:49]in the operations of the company
[2:25:51]and its related entities?
[2:25:53]Is it a big enough word?
[2:25:57]Could it be described that
[2:26:00]you
[2:26:02]like to micromanage
[2:26:04]what was going on through
[2:26:06]your companies and your corporation?
[2:26:17]I would describe my
[2:26:19]involvement. I don't think people
[2:26:21]that I work with ever describe me as a micromanager.
[2:26:25]I was involved
[2:26:27]in so many things
[2:26:29]in the business.
[2:26:35]Did you ever face any
[2:26:37]criticism from your corporation
[2:26:39]or its related entities about
[2:26:41]allowing Mr. Epstein
[2:26:43]to handle finances in any way?
[2:26:45]We never handled business
[2:26:51]finances. No one in the business
[2:26:53]was critical of Jeffrey
[2:26:55]handling his
[2:26:57]responsibilities to me
[2:26:59]personally.
[2:27:04]No one ever brought any concerns to you at all?
[2:27:06]Not that I recall.
[2:27:08]I want to
[2:27:25]circle back again to some testimony
[2:27:27]you provided earlier.
[2:27:29]You testified that
[2:27:31]Mr. Epstein
[2:27:33]stole large amounts of money from you.
[2:27:35]Is that correct?
[2:27:37]Yes, I did. That's the restatement.
[2:27:41]I can't recall. Did you
[2:27:43]know
[2:27:47]some partial amount of how much he
[2:27:49]stole? Well, I didn't know he
[2:28:00]was stealing until after
[2:28:02]we discovered that he was a crook.
[2:28:04]And my wife's
[2:28:06]attorneys told me about
[2:28:08]it. Not that they told you what you understood.
[2:28:10]What I understood.
[2:28:12]I only understood what they told me.
[2:28:16]I didn't discover
[2:28:18]it or count it or whatever one would
[2:28:20]do. That's the
[2:28:22]essence of your question.
[2:28:24]Does
[2:28:26]$46 million sound
[2:28:28]like an approximation of the amount
[2:28:30]that you were alerted to after the fact?
[2:28:32]I don't remember specifically
[2:28:37]initially
[2:28:39]Abigail just told me this is really
[2:28:41]No, not what Abigail told you. What you understand.
[2:28:43]What I understood, there was a large amount
[2:28:45]of money and I didn't know the specific
[2:28:47]amount when
[2:28:49]it was first raised.
[2:28:51]Subsequently, I found out
[2:28:53]that it was at least $100
[2:28:55]million.
[2:28:57]Does that represent the grand
[2:28:59]total of the amount that Mr.
[2:29:01]Epstein stole from you?
[2:29:03]I don't know.
[2:29:05]I don't think I'll ever know.
[2:29:07]Do you
[2:29:11]understanding
[2:29:13]that you found
[2:29:15]out he stole largely
[2:29:17]after the fact?
[2:29:19]Were you able
[2:29:21]to piece together how
[2:29:23]he was able to accomplish this theft of you?
[2:29:25]No.
[2:29:31]You never figured out
[2:29:33]if he was, say,
[2:29:35]embezzling funds of some sort or how
[2:29:37]he would be allegedly embezzling funds of some
[2:29:39]sort. And you
[2:29:47]testified earlier that
[2:29:51]you did not end up pressing
[2:29:53]any charges against Mr. Epstein for
[2:29:55]the theft of your funds.
[2:29:57]Could you briefly explain to me why
[2:29:59]again you decided not to?
[2:30:03]Advice of advisors.
[2:30:07]Advice of advisors.
[2:30:09]And to be clear, you never suspected
[2:30:20]any wrongdoing until you ultimately
[2:30:22]know, is that correct?
[2:30:26]Correct.
[2:30:32]Are you aware of any advisors
[2:30:38]fearing any type of retribution from Mr.
[2:30:40]Epstein if you pursued litigation over the
[2:30:42]theft of your funds?
[2:30:47]Say that again.
[2:30:49]Did your advisors
[2:30:51]come to you with any fear of retribution
[2:30:53]from Mr. Epstein if you threatened
[2:30:55]litigation over the theft of your funds?
[2:30:57]No.
[2:30:59]No, I don't remember that at all.
[2:31:01]Are you aware of
[2:31:06]Elan Maxwell
[2:31:08]having any role in the theft of your funds?
[2:31:10]No.
[2:31:14]I want to
[2:31:16]move now to the
[2:31:18]New York City
[2:31:20]townhome
[2:31:22]9 East 71st Street.
[2:31:24]I believe
[2:31:26]you first purchased that
[2:31:28]home before Mr. Epstein lived in it.
[2:31:30]Is that correct?
[2:31:32]Correct.
[2:31:34]Do you remember the time period in which
[2:31:36]you would have bought it, best guess?
[2:31:43]I don't know, five or ten years before.
[2:31:45]It was a school.
[2:31:47]And then
[2:31:49]the remodeling took three years
[2:31:51]and so I don't remember when
[2:31:53]it was.
[2:31:56]But I'm guessing it was
[2:31:58]I don't know,
[2:32:00]in the 80s.
[2:32:02]Excuse me.
[2:32:04]Five to ten years before.
[2:32:06]Five to ten years before what, exactly?
[2:32:08]Before I met Jeffery.
[2:32:10]Okay.
[2:32:12]Did you ever live in this
[2:32:14]house yourself?
[2:32:18]I visited it, but I never lived in
[2:32:20]New York, really. I hate New York.
[2:32:24]When are you first
[2:32:26]aware of Mr. Epstein moving into that
[2:32:28]mansion?
[2:32:36]He moved in sometime after I sold it to him, but I don't
[2:32:38]know when that was.
[2:32:44]Would you be able to
[2:32:46]best guess when you sold the house
[2:32:48]to Mr. Epstein?
[2:32:56]It would have been after 1993.
[2:32:58]Okay.
[2:33:03]Are you aware that the
[2:33:07]deed to the property did not officially
[2:33:09]change hands to Mr. Epstein until the
[2:33:11]mid-2000s?
[2:33:21]No.
[2:33:23]Do you recall how Mr. Epstein purchased this house from you?
[2:33:27]Okay.
[2:33:33]And this, the sale of this town
[2:33:35]home was at the time that
[2:33:37]Mr. Epstein was managing your personal finances.
[2:33:39]Is that correct?
[2:33:41]Correct.
[2:33:43]Is it possible that Mr.
[2:33:45]Epstein sold the house to
[2:33:47]himself without your knowledge?
[2:33:50]No.
[2:33:52]I wouldn't know.
[2:33:54]Of course, he bought it.
[2:33:56]Did he approach you to buy that home?
[2:33:58]Yes.
[2:34:00]Do you recall approximately
[2:34:20]how much money you sold that town home to Mr.
[2:34:22]Epstein for?
[2:34:24]I think about $20 million.
[2:34:26]Do you recall what the market value
[2:34:28]on that home was at the time?
[2:34:30]I believe it was $20 million.
[2:34:32]So you believe you got a
[2:34:34]fair deal for selling that home?
[2:34:36]I believe so, yes.
[2:34:40]It's been recently
[2:34:44]reported that
[2:34:46]the,
[2:34:48]your company, or I guess
[2:34:50]technically one of your subsidiaries,
[2:34:52]the Two Inc.
[2:34:54]was
[2:34:56]transferred to
[2:34:58]Jeffrey Epstein's financial trust
[2:35:00]company in or around
[2:35:02]2001.
[2:35:04]Do you have any knowledge of that happening?
[2:35:06]I don't
[2:35:08]know what Two Inc. is and I
[2:35:10]didn't know what it did.
[2:35:13]Two Inc. wasn't one of your clothing
[2:35:15]brands' subsidiaries?
[2:35:17]It was called Limited Two. That was a business
[2:35:19]that was part of the company.
[2:35:21]That's
[2:35:25]the only thing it means to me.
[2:35:27]Did you have any of your
[2:35:31]subsidiaries of
[2:35:33]your company
[2:35:35]transferred to Mr. Epstein's
[2:35:37]personal business side
[2:35:39]control? I don't think so.
[2:35:42]We previously,
[2:35:57]and we'll switch gears on you again,
[2:36:03]we previously mentioned accusations
[2:36:05]from Maria Farmer
[2:36:07]and
[2:36:09]there were a
[2:36:11]subsequent set of allegations from
[2:36:13]another individual. Are you aware
[2:36:15]of who Virginia Jufre
[2:36:17]is? Familiar name, but
[2:36:23]I've heard it, but I can't
[2:36:25]connect it to anything.
[2:36:27]Did you ever have
[2:36:29]any sexual contact of any kind with
[2:36:31]Ms. Jufre?
[2:36:33]No.
[2:36:35]I have contacts
[2:36:37]that I don't even know.
[2:36:39]Ms. Jufre has
[2:36:41]accused you of
[2:36:43]performing sexual
[2:36:45]acts with her multiple times.
[2:36:47]You dispute these allegations?
[2:36:49]She must be confused.
[2:36:52]It never
[2:36:54]happened. Did Mr. Epstein
[2:37:02]ever bring up Ms. Jufre to you?
[2:37:04]No. Not a familiar
[2:37:06]name. Ever mention Ms.
[2:37:09]Jufre giving you a massage?
[2:37:11]No.
[2:37:16]Did Ms. Maxwell ever bring up Ms.
[2:37:18]Jufre to you? No.
[2:37:28]What about her former
[2:37:30]maiden name, Virginia Roberts?
[2:37:32]Does that ring a bell to you?
[2:37:34]Never heard of her.
[2:37:58]I want to return
[2:38:00]to some things we discussed
[2:38:02]and earlier
[2:38:04]in the day about
[2:38:06]travels with Mr.
[2:38:08]Epstein. I believe it was your
[2:38:10]testimony that Mr. Epstein was only
[2:38:12]on your corporate jet
[2:38:14]when you were present. Is that accurate?
[2:38:16]Yes.
[2:38:19]To my knowledge.
[2:38:21]And to your knowledge,
[2:38:25]I believe it was your testimony
[2:38:27]earlier that there would be
[2:38:29]surprise parties in which
[2:38:31]the jet was traveling to a location
[2:38:33]for one of those parties.
[2:38:35]But you could not recall Mr. Epstein
[2:38:37]being at the party, is that correct?
[2:38:39]Correct. If Mr. Epstein was
[2:38:41]not attending the party, what were the
[2:38:43]purposes of his travel with you on your
[2:38:45]corporate jet?
[2:38:47]I don't know.
[2:38:57]You have a rough estimation of
[2:38:59]how many times you would have traveled with Mr. Epstein on your
[2:39:01]corporate jet?
[2:39:06]I don't specifically recall any, but
[2:39:08]if it would have been once,
[2:39:10]twice,
[2:39:12]it would have been very few times.
[2:39:14]Because the aircraft was
[2:39:16]used primarily for business purpose.
[2:39:18]And when we used it personally,
[2:39:20]we paid for the airplane.
[2:39:22]So the notion
[2:39:24]of
[2:39:26]him
[2:39:28]using the plane or being on
[2:39:30]the plane for kind of social reasons
[2:39:32]or
[2:39:34]just bumming a ride kind of thing just
[2:39:36]never happened with anybody.
[2:39:38]And
[2:39:40]I take that to mean
[2:39:43]you also never flew Mr. Epstein
[2:39:45]to locations
[2:39:47]where any of his various homes were
[2:39:49]located.
[2:39:51]Absolutely not.
[2:39:53]Absolutely not. I never did that.
[2:39:55]And just to
[2:40:03]clarify, I believe this might have been
[2:40:05]asked earlier.
[2:40:07]Did Mr. Epstein ever bring
[2:40:10]guests on these flights?
[2:40:12]Not that I recall.
[2:40:14]Your corporate
[2:40:20]plane at that time was a
[2:40:22]Boeing 727. Is
[2:40:24]that accurate?
[2:40:29]We had two aircraft,
[2:40:31]the 727, and we
[2:40:33]replaced it with a 737.
[2:40:35]And I don't remember
[2:40:37]they looked alike except for their
[2:40:39]motors. So I can't remember
[2:40:41]I know which came first and which
[2:40:43]came second, but I can't tell you in time.
[2:40:45]And
[2:40:47]just to back up
[2:40:49]for a brief second, did
[2:40:51]you keep detailed
[2:40:53]flight logs for the
[2:40:55]personal travels on
[2:40:57]your corporate jet?
[2:40:59]I believe we
[2:41:01]kept flight
[2:41:03]logs on our
[2:41:05]business aircraft and our personal
[2:41:07]airplanes, always.
[2:41:11]And
[2:41:13]the corporate jet
[2:41:15]did you sell one of these
[2:41:17]airplanes to Mr. Epstein?
[2:41:19]Are you
[2:41:21]the company? The company, yes.
[2:41:23]Yeah, the company sold an airplane
[2:41:25]to
[2:41:27]Mr. Epstein.
[2:41:29]Do you recall
[2:41:31]when that sale was made?
[2:41:33]No.
[2:41:37]Do you guesstimate when that sale was made?
[2:41:39]When
[2:41:43]they delivered the 737,
[2:41:45]I don't know when it was.
[2:41:47]Do you
[2:41:54]understanding
[2:41:56]your posture with
[2:41:58]the corporation has changed
[2:42:00]over the years, do you
[2:42:02]have you maintained any of those flight
[2:42:04]logs? Do you have them still
[2:42:06]as records today? Never had
[2:42:08]them and don't have them.
[2:42:10]Do you know why you do not
[2:42:13]have those flight logs?
[2:42:21]I would assume CEOs don't keep
[2:42:23]flight logs of their company airplanes.
[2:42:25]That's
[2:42:27]a kind of shocking question.
[2:42:29]You wouldn't have the corresponding
[2:42:31]flight logs of when you personally
[2:42:33]use the jet on your own
[2:42:35]personal finances?
[2:42:42]I think there are probably two reasons
[2:42:44]that I know
[2:42:46]we kept flight logs.
[2:42:48]I think it's a
[2:42:50]government requirement that you have to have flight
[2:42:52]logs on an airplane.
[2:42:54]Two, so many people in the business,
[2:42:56]different CEOs, would be using
[2:42:58]the planes and every
[2:43:00]plane request
[2:43:02]would come to me because
[2:43:04]one, I wanted them to travel
[2:43:06]and I wanted to make sure that
[2:43:08]they were then traveling with the people
[2:43:10]that they were traveling with.
[2:43:12]So I know I
[2:43:14]approved or my admin
[2:43:16]approved on my behalf when I wasn't
[2:43:18]around who was on the airplanes
[2:43:20]and the trip.
[2:43:22]Because
[2:43:24]a CEO
[2:43:26]would request a trip,
[2:43:28]say they were going to go to Denver to visit
[2:43:30]stores, and there were eight people that were
[2:43:32]going on the store visit.
[2:43:34]And I'd prove it because that would be
[2:43:36]a good use.
[2:43:38]The CEO went with
[2:43:40]by themselves and was like, no,
[2:43:42]it's not the purpose.
[2:43:44]It was a very expensive
[2:43:46]and valuable asset to the business
[2:43:48]and I wanted to know that it was being
[2:43:50]used appropriately.
[2:43:52]But I never reviewed the flight
[2:43:54]logs.
[2:43:56]It's
[2:43:58]just that level of minutiae was
[2:44:00]beyond me.
[2:44:02]Understanding you might not have reviewed
[2:44:04]flight logs or even
[2:44:06]necessarily had
[2:44:08]a reason for acquiring
[2:44:10]them, is that a
[2:44:12]record that would
[2:44:14]still be kept in the custody of either
[2:44:16]yourself or personal travel or for
[2:44:18]the business if those records
[2:44:20]were ever needed for some sort of purpose?
[2:44:22]I don't know
[2:44:24]what the business kept.
[2:44:26]But if they're there, I'm sure
[2:44:28]they're welcome to look at them.
[2:44:30]And so would you be able to
[2:44:32]obtain those records assuming they do exist?
[2:44:34]From the company? Yes.
[2:44:36]Or personally? I don't think he
[2:44:38]has access to them at the company.
[2:44:40]You guys have to be in authority.
[2:44:42]Do you recall
[2:44:44]how much you sold
[2:44:49]the plane to Mr. Epstein for?
[2:44:51]The company?
[2:44:53]The company sold, sorry, my apologies.
[2:44:55]Yeah, I
[2:44:57]did.
[2:44:59]Approximately six million dollars.
[2:45:01]And what would have been
[2:45:03]the, do you recall
[2:45:05]what would have been the market value for that
[2:45:07]aircraft at that time? Six million
[2:45:09]dollars. Do you believe you got a fair deal
[2:45:11]for that aircraft? The company got a fair deal.
[2:45:13]Sorry, yes, the company got a fair deal
[2:45:15]for that aircraft. Yeah, I thought it was
[2:45:18]a very fair deal. Similar
[2:45:27]question to
[2:45:29]Mr. Epstein's acquisition of the New York
[2:45:31]Town home. How
[2:45:33]did Mr. Epstein
[2:45:35]purchase this plane
[2:45:37]from you?
[2:45:39]From the company.
[2:45:41]I'll get there, I promise.
[2:45:45]Presumably wrote a check.
[2:45:51]And you weren't
[2:45:53]privy to the
[2:45:55]any of the fine details
[2:45:57]of that deal?
[2:45:59]As far as which entity Mr. Epstein
[2:46:01]would have used to buy that
[2:46:03]plane from the company? No.
[2:46:09]The plane, the value
[2:46:13]of the plane was appraised
[2:46:15]by an airplane broker. That plane
[2:46:17]was for sale for a year.
[2:46:19]And the value was six million
[2:46:21]dollars. That's all I
[2:46:24]know. Understood.
[2:46:26]And, excuse
[2:46:34]me, this is repetition, but
[2:46:36]did Ms. Maxwell ever travel with you
[2:46:38]on the plane? On the company's
[2:46:40]plane? Not that I recall.
[2:46:47]Did you ever fly on an
[2:46:49]aircraft owned or operated by
[2:46:51]Jeffrey Epstein? Absolutely not.
[2:46:53]Did Mr. Epstein ever invite you
[2:46:57]to fly on any of his aircrafts that he
[2:46:59]owned or operated? I think he might
[2:47:12]have.
[2:47:14]But I can't specifically
[2:47:16]remember the circumstance.
[2:47:20]Some of this is really difficult
[2:47:22]to remember.
[2:47:24]Because Jeffrey was such a con.
[2:47:26]As I look back at
[2:47:28]it,
[2:47:30]he was much better
[2:47:34]at being a crook than I was,
[2:47:36]than I am as an honest person.
[2:47:38]And I think for the
[2:47:40]committee to understand this,
[2:47:42]the con part,
[2:47:44]I can't imagine a bigger crook or
[2:47:46]con that the world has ever seen.
[2:47:48]Do you recall what
[2:47:53]rationale you would have had for
[2:47:55]declining, taking flights
[2:47:57]with Mr. Epstein on
[2:47:59]planes owned or operated by
[2:48:01]him? I was busy.
[2:48:03]Very busy.
[2:48:05]In busy years,
[2:48:07]I was in the air, flying
[2:48:09]on business purpose in the air
[2:48:11]three to four hundred hours a year.
[2:48:13]If you
[2:48:15]can imagine somebody traveling
[2:48:17]in the air fifty-eight
[2:48:19]hour days and running a company,
[2:48:21]I ran it from the air as much as
[2:48:23]I did on the ground.
[2:48:28]The last thing I wanted to do was
[2:48:30]take a trip with anybody.
[2:48:32]Understood.
[2:48:47]Same people?
[2:48:49]I recognize all of them.
[2:48:51]Okay.
[2:48:53]Okay.
[2:48:57]One of the subsidiaries
[2:48:59]of your
[2:49:01]corporation was Victoria's Secret,
[2:49:03]is that correct? Correct.
[2:49:05]And what
[2:49:08]is Victoria's Secret known
[2:49:10]for primarily?
[2:49:16]I said the biggest, best lingerie brand in the world.
[2:49:18]Kind of like
[2:49:20]Nike as to running shoes.
[2:49:22]Understood.
[2:49:24]And what type of
[2:49:28]events would occur to
[2:49:30]market or
[2:49:32]advertise that company
[2:49:34]while you were in control of it?
[2:49:36]It was print advertising,
[2:49:38]it was TV ads.
[2:49:44]A lot of the marketing was point of purchase.
[2:49:46]The design of the stores and of course
[2:49:48]the fashion show was kind of
[2:49:50]a magical thing for the brand.
[2:49:52]And I believe you touched
[2:49:55]on this a bit earlier. Were you
[2:49:57]aware of Mr. Epstein holding
[2:49:59]himself out to be affiliated
[2:50:01]with Victoria's Secret?
[2:50:03]Only once.
[2:50:05]When were you made aware of that?
[2:50:07]Remember when?
[2:50:11]Do you recall who brought that
[2:50:13]to your attention?
[2:50:15]Somebody in the company probably.
[2:50:17]I don't remember specifically who.
[2:50:19]Do you recall how he was holding
[2:50:25]himself out to be part of Victoria's
[2:50:27]Secret?
[2:50:29]He was a talent scout looking for models.
[2:50:31]Did you ever
[2:50:36]have the sense that Mr. Epstein
[2:50:40]had a certain
[2:50:42]odd interest
[2:50:44]in Victoria's Secret?
[2:50:46]No. Would he discuss the
[2:50:50]models at Victoria's Secret with you?
[2:50:52]No. Would he ask
[2:50:56]you to attend Victoria's Secret
[2:50:58]fashion shows?
[2:51:02]Would he ask me? Correct.
[2:51:04]No. Did you ever personally
[2:51:07]invite him to any Victoria's Secret fashion shows?
[2:51:09]No. Invited
[2:51:15]him to any business
[2:51:17]event along the fashion
[2:51:19]show. Do you
[2:51:36]or sorry let me rephrase.
[2:51:38]Are you aware of how
[2:51:40]Mr. Epstein would have
[2:51:42]been able to attend
[2:51:44]Victoria's Secret events if not
[2:51:46]invited by you? I was presuming
[2:51:57]that he would have called somebody in the business and said
[2:51:59]could I come? Could I get a ticket?
[2:52:01]I know
[2:52:03]that we were for business
[2:52:05]reasons very careful about
[2:52:07]the audience that was there
[2:52:09]and about I would
[2:52:11]guess two-thirds of the audience were
[2:52:13]employees,
[2:52:15]store managers, people
[2:52:17]that had done heroic things inside
[2:52:19]the brand because it was
[2:52:21]a big company event
[2:52:23]and all the CEOs of all
[2:52:25]the companies in the company were
[2:52:27]invited.
[2:52:29]And so the people that were outside
[2:52:31]the company wasn't
[2:52:33]what I was concerned about. I was
[2:52:35]more concerned about internally
[2:52:37]that people came
[2:52:39]that should come
[2:52:41]or were at least invited because
[2:52:43]if not it would have been
[2:52:45]the right thing to do.
[2:52:47]My answer is I really
[2:52:56]don't know.
[2:52:58]Are you aware of
[2:53:00]Jeffrey Epstein having any other
[2:53:02]contacts within
[2:53:04]Victoria's Secret
[2:53:06]specifically? Executives
[2:53:08]or anyone of that such?
[2:53:10]I'm sure he knew people or would
[2:53:12]reach out to people in the business but I don't
[2:53:14]know. Did you ever make
[2:53:22]executives at Victoria's Secret aware
[2:53:24]that you would prevent Mr. Epstein from coming to
[2:53:26]any fashion shows or around
[2:53:28]any models? Not that I
[2:53:31]recall. Are you aware of Mr.
[2:53:42]Epstein bringing any women
[2:53:44]to Victoria's Secret
[2:53:46]to potentially model
[2:53:48]for Victoria's Secret? Do you
[2:54:02]know who John Luke
[2:54:04]Brunel is?
[2:54:06]Never heard of him. Did you ever
[2:54:20]take a recommendation from Mr.
[2:54:22]Epstein or Ms. Maxwell
[2:54:24]about hiring young
[2:54:26]women or girls for any of your companies
[2:54:28]or subsidiaries thereof?
[2:54:30]No. Did Mr. Epstein
[2:54:36]ever suggest
[2:54:38]to you that he could find models
[2:54:40]on your behalf for Victoria's Secret?
[2:54:42]No. Did you ever consider
[2:54:55]cutting ties with Mr.
[2:54:57]Epstein professionally
[2:54:59]or personally after he was
[2:55:01]caught lying
[2:55:03]that he was a scout
[2:55:05]for Victoria's Secret?
[2:55:07]Because the answer would be if I
[2:55:13]thought he was I would have fired him.
[2:55:15]I am now going to enter as
[2:55:37]majority exhibit 6
[2:55:41]a letter
[2:55:43]from a birthday
[2:55:47]book compiled for
[2:55:49]Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday
[2:55:51]in January of
[2:55:53]2003. I will give
[2:55:59]you a second to familiarize
[2:56:01]yourself with the letter.
[2:56:03]Six.
[2:56:05]Mr. Wexner,
[2:56:23]is this letter familiar
[2:56:25]to you? I have seen it
[2:56:28]before, yes.
[2:56:30]Where have you seen it before?
[2:56:32]Part of
[2:56:34]I think the documents
[2:56:36]preparation for today's
[2:56:38]meeting.
[2:56:43]Did you yourself write this
[2:56:45]letter to Mr. Epstein?
[2:56:47]Sadly, I did.
[2:56:52]Did Ms. Maxwell approach you
[2:56:54]to write this letter for Mr. Epstein's
[2:56:56]birthday? I think the request was
[2:57:02]to write a card or a note or
[2:57:04]something for a birthday book.
[2:57:06]And did that come from
[2:57:08]Ms. Maxwell? I don't remember.
[2:57:10]Mr. Wexner, would you
[2:57:15]please read
[2:57:17]the main body of the birthday note for the record
[2:57:19]please? I wanted to get
[2:57:21]you what you want.
[2:57:23]So here it is. Happy birthday
[2:57:25]your friend Leslie.
[2:57:27]And what was your understanding
[2:57:29]of what Mr. Epstein
[2:57:31]would want? He was a bachelor
[2:57:36]so I drew a pair of boobs.
[2:57:42]As a kind of a joke
[2:57:44]and offhandedly I'd say.
[2:57:46]Understand.
[2:57:48]I hope you do.
[2:57:50]You've said
[2:57:52]a few times throughout this
[2:57:54]deposition today that you did not consider
[2:57:56]Mr. Epstein a friend of yours.
[2:57:58]However, you signed this letter
[2:58:00]and I quote, your friend Leslie.
[2:58:02]Why would you
[2:58:04]sign your friend Leslie
[2:58:06]to someone you did not consider to be a friend
[2:58:08]of yours? I don't know.
[2:58:10]I normally say less, not Leslie.
[2:58:15]Neither when I write notes.
[2:58:19]I guess I could
[2:58:21]I can't explain why I would say
[2:58:23]you're friends. We weren't friends.
[2:58:25]Did you ever speak
[2:58:29]to Ms. Maxwell directly
[2:58:31]about this particular letter?
[2:58:33]No.
[2:58:35]Did you ever speak to Mr. Epstein
[2:58:37]directly about this particular letter?
[2:58:39]No.
[2:58:41]Was this letter
[2:58:45]something that you would commonly
[2:58:47]send
[2:58:49]like a better term business
[2:58:52]associates?
[2:58:54]No, of course not.
[2:59:01]I was trying to be funny.
[2:59:14]I'm going to mark as majority
[2:59:16]exhibit seven
[2:59:18]a photo.
[2:59:32]I'll give you a second to review.
[2:59:34]Are you in
[2:59:45]this photo?
[2:59:47]Yes.
[2:59:49]And Mr. Epstein is also in this photo?
[2:59:51]Yes.
[2:59:53]And a third individual is redacted in this photo?
[2:59:55]Yes.
[2:59:57]Are you aware of
[2:59:59]knowing who the redacted individual in this photo is?
[3:00:01]I know who the redacted person is in this photo.
[3:00:03]Who is that redacted person?
[3:00:05]My wife. Understood.
[3:00:07]Do you recall?
[3:00:09]The man in the back is Peter Lurssen
[3:00:11]and the picture was taken in Bremen
[3:00:13]when the vote was launched.
[3:00:15]We got a bunch of pictures of the vote launching.
[3:00:17]Do you recall
[3:00:19]what year that was?
[3:00:28]We had two children
[3:00:32]probably three or four years after we were married.
[3:00:35]And did you invite Mr.
[3:00:37]Epstein to this vote launch
[3:00:39]part of your event?
[3:00:41]I recall.
[3:00:45]Can you recall who would have invited Mr. Epstein to this event?
[3:00:47]No.
[3:01:13]It is
[3:01:15]2 0 8 and the majority
[3:01:17]will end this hour now and go off the record.
[3:01:19]We can go
[3:01:26]back on the record.
[3:01:28]Welcome back.
[3:01:32]Got just a couple of
[3:01:34]follow ups about some things you've already
[3:01:36]touched on.
[3:01:38]The New
[3:01:40]York City house.
[3:01:42]Do you remember
[3:01:44]when Epstein
[3:01:46]first had some kind of
[3:01:48]ownership interest in the home?
[3:01:50]I think you may have said after
[3:01:55]1993.
[3:01:57]It was
[3:01:59]when I sold it to him.
[3:02:01]But I don't remember the date.
[3:02:03]The sale is reported as 1998.
[3:02:07]As far as you know, would that be the first
[3:02:09]time that Mr. Epstein had any
[3:02:11]kind of ownership of the home?
[3:02:13]Do you
[3:02:15]know? I don't know.
[3:02:17]You could tell me any
[3:02:19]date. I know it was after
[3:02:21]we were married.
[3:02:23]Whether it was a year or two I don't remember.
[3:02:25]Was that 1993?
[3:02:27]We got married in 1993.
[3:02:29]Do you recall at all
[3:02:31]Mr. Epstein talking about why
[3:02:33]he wanted the home?
[3:02:35]No.
[3:02:40]With respect to
[3:02:42]the home,
[3:02:44]I think you were asked whether
[3:02:48]you felt like the sale price was a
[3:02:50]fair deal for you.
[3:02:52]And I think your answer was yes.
[3:02:54]Is that right?
[3:02:56]Yes, that's right.
[3:02:58]And with respect to
[3:03:00]the plane,
[3:03:02]I think you were asked whether
[3:03:04]you felt like the company got a fair
[3:03:06]deal at $6 million.
[3:03:08]And I think you said yes.
[3:03:10]Is that right?
[3:03:12]Yes, because that was the asking price.
[3:03:14]I think
[3:03:16]your counsels
[3:03:18]represented to DOJ in
[3:03:20]2019 that Mr.
[3:03:22]Epstein sold himself
[3:03:24]both those assets at deeply
[3:03:26]discounted prices and that that
[3:03:28]was part of his theft from you.
[3:03:30]I'd never heard that
[3:03:32]before. Do you have any sense of
[3:03:34]why that discrepancy would exist?
[3:03:36]Not a clue.
[3:03:38]In terms of
[3:03:51]Mr. Epstein's repayment
[3:03:53]to you, I think your counsels
[3:03:55]also represented that he repaid
[3:03:57]you about $100 million
[3:03:59]in 2008.
[3:04:01]Would you have any knowledge of
[3:04:03]exactly how much he repaid you
[3:04:05]or how? No.
[3:04:07]There were a few other
[3:04:13]physical assets I just wanted
[3:04:15]to quickly touch on. Sure.
[3:04:17]There was a second home in New York City
[3:04:19]at 11 East 71st
[3:04:21]Street, so it's right
[3:04:23]next to the home that we've been discussing.
[3:04:25]And it sounds like
[3:04:27]you bought the home in 1988.
[3:04:29]Epstein bought the home from
[3:04:31]you in 1992.
[3:04:33]Do you have any recollection of that home?
[3:04:35]Take your time. Are you saying
[3:04:40]two homes in New York next to each other?
[3:04:42]Yeah, right next to it. The address for this one
[3:04:44]would have been 11 East
[3:04:46]71st Street.
[3:04:48]No recollection of that happening.
[3:04:50]There
[3:04:53]was and still is
[3:04:55]a condo building
[3:04:57]at 301 East
[3:04:59]66th Street in New York.
[3:05:01]It's been reported that Epstein
[3:05:03]lodged many of his victims
[3:05:05]at that building.
[3:05:07]The reporting has also been
[3:05:09]that you once owned
[3:05:11]that building and that you sold it to
[3:05:13]Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's
[3:05:15]brother in the early 90s.
[3:05:17]Do you have any recollection of that?
[3:05:19]The building or the condo? The building.
[3:05:21]No? No recollection.
[3:05:27]With respect to I think
[3:05:29]what we understand to be two homes
[3:05:31]in New Albany that Mr.
[3:05:33]Epstein owned at one point or
[3:05:35]another. So there was first
[3:05:37]a home on the
[3:05:39]7500 block of King
[3:05:41]George Drive
[3:05:43]that Epstein received from you
[3:05:45]in 1990. Do you have any
[3:05:47]recollection of that home?
[3:05:49]I know he bought a house from Jack Kessler.
[3:05:51]It's the one we'd mentioned
[3:05:53]before. That's the only one I know about.
[3:05:55]Got it. This I think is a separate home and
[3:05:57]was earlier in time.
[3:05:59]No. No recollection.
[3:06:03]That second home
[3:06:05]I think you mentioned
[3:06:07]that Mr. Epstein bought
[3:06:09]it from Mr. Kessler.
[3:06:11]I think the
[3:06:13]documents show that it was a company
[3:06:15]that Epstein bought the home from
[3:06:17]and I'll represent to you that
[3:06:19]it was you who signed the deed to
[3:06:21]Epstein. Would you have any
[3:06:23]knowledge about why that might have been
[3:06:25]the case?
[3:06:27]I understand the question.
[3:06:29]I signed the deed
[3:06:31]to sell the house to Jack, to
[3:06:33]sell Jack Kessler's house to Jeffrey?
[3:06:35]Yeah, and it was in your capacity representing
[3:06:37]an entity of some kind
[3:06:39]that seems to have been associated with yourself
[3:06:41]and Mr. Kessler.
[3:06:45]Shocking.
[3:06:48]Does everybody
[3:06:57]do stuff like that? Could it be just four
[3:06:59]juries?
[3:07:01]I think in this case he asked the question.
[3:07:03]No, I mean it's like
[3:07:05]me signing a deed to
[3:07:07]somebody else's house is
[3:07:09]okay, I'm sorry.
[3:07:11]And the entity
[3:07:17]for that sale was
[3:07:19]JW and CPK
[3:07:21]and company. Does that ring any bells
[3:07:23]for you? No.
[3:07:30]What is the history of that
[3:07:32]home if you recall? In other words, was it
[3:07:34]originally built for Mr.
[3:07:36]Kessler to live in?
[3:07:38]Was it his primary residence?
[3:07:40]Yeah.
[3:07:42]And what do you recall as the
[3:07:44]purpose of the sale to Mr.
[3:07:46]Epstein? Why would Jeffrey Epstein
[3:07:48]why did he buy that home if you recall?
[3:07:50]First of all, I didn't recall
[3:07:53]that he bought
[3:07:55]it. I don't remember that.
[3:07:57]I know Jack had financial
[3:07:59]problems and he came to
[3:08:01]me and said I've got problems, I've got to sell my
[3:08:03]house. That's all I recall
[3:08:07]about it. I don't think it's ever in the house.
[3:08:09]Do you recall
[3:08:11]Epstein purchasing it at the time?
[3:08:13]Were you aware of that? No, I wasn't.
[3:08:15]I'd like to ask a little
[3:08:23]bit about your personal
[3:08:25]relationship with Mr. Epstein.
[3:08:27]Some of the reporting has
[3:08:29]described you as close.
[3:08:31]I think that's been mentioned earlier today.
[3:08:33]I would just like to ask about a few
[3:08:35]examples that have been reported
[3:08:37]and just understand your knowledge of that.
[3:08:39]Sure. The New York Times, for example,
[3:08:41]has reported that sometime
[3:08:43]in the late 80s, Mr. Epstein
[3:08:45]managed the design
[3:08:47]and construction of your yacht,
[3:08:49]the Limitless. Do you
[3:08:51]have any recollection of that being the case?
[3:08:53]For this
[3:08:55]thing from the truth. Not true.
[3:08:57]I worked on
[3:08:59]the design for ten
[3:09:01]years, me.
[3:09:03]And it took three years
[3:09:05]to build the yacht and the only
[3:09:07]person that was there beside
[3:09:09]me watching the construction was
[3:09:11]Abigail,
[3:09:13]period.
[3:09:15]And a gentleman who represented himself
[3:09:17]to the New York Times as your former captain,
[3:09:19]Craig Tafoya,
[3:09:21]seemed to be of the understanding
[3:09:23]that Mr. Epstein had a role in
[3:09:25]designing the yacht,
[3:09:27]Mr. Tafoya. From your point of view, Mr.
[3:09:29]Tafoya is simply mistaken.
[3:09:31]Absolutely
[3:09:33]mistaken.
[3:09:35]I can draw it in detail
[3:09:37]for you right now.
[3:09:41]The Wall Street Journal has reported
[3:09:43]that Mr. Epstein would sometimes do
[3:09:45]personal tasks for you,
[3:09:47]such as helping your wife
[3:09:49]Abigail find a nanny
[3:09:51]or showing up at a restaurant with a
[3:09:53]gift for a mutual friend.
[3:09:55]Do you have any knowledge or recollection of
[3:09:57]those types of activities?
[3:09:59]Never have.
[3:10:01]No recollection
[3:10:03]or you believe that
[3:10:05]those things did not happen?
[3:10:07]I have no recollection
[3:10:09]and
[3:10:11]believe they never happened.
[3:10:15]Anna DeFair has reported that Mr.
[3:10:17]Epstein once broke up with a
[3:10:19]woman for you here in Columbus
[3:10:21]by going to her house. This, of course,
[3:10:23]was before you met your wife.
[3:10:25]Do you have any knowledge or recollection of that?
[3:10:29]Well, did
[3:10:32]I break up with a woman? Yes.
[3:10:34]Did Mr. Epstein perform
[3:10:36]the act directly or indirectly?
[3:10:38]No.
[3:10:59]I'd like to introduce as
[3:11:01]Minority Exhibit G
[3:11:03]an email
[3:11:13]from 2006.
[3:11:15]I'll give you a moment to look at it.
[3:11:26]I'll only be asking about
[3:11:28]a very short part,
[3:11:30]but feel free to scan it.
[3:11:32]What it looks like is an email from
[3:11:34]Mr. Epstein
[3:11:36]to somebody with a limited
[3:11:38]address, D. Larson.
[3:11:40]I don't know if you would have an idea of who that
[3:11:42]probably is.
[3:11:44]My admin, Don Larson.
[3:11:46]Great. Can we have a chance to just read the
[3:11:48]email? Sure, of course. Thanks.
[3:12:32]I've got a new email written this time.
[3:12:34]At a certain point, I'll just direct
[3:12:58]your attention to a sentence.
[3:13:00]No, that's fine. He's not on this, so
[3:13:02]let's try and get it.
[3:13:04]So at the very end of this email,
[3:13:06]Mr. Wexner,
[3:13:08]I would say close to
[3:13:10]the very end, there's a sentence that starts
[3:13:12]with, I believe that this
[3:13:14]information, and if you see
[3:13:16]that, make sure your counsel
[3:13:18]can guide you to it.
[3:13:20]And I'll read that out loud.
[3:13:24]This is a long
[3:13:26]email. It seems to relate to
[3:13:28]business topics and people.
[3:13:30]But Epstein signs off by saying,
[3:13:32]I believe that this information belongs
[3:13:34]to you, and under gang
[3:13:36]stuff rules, I cannot simply
[3:13:38]be the repository of people's
[3:13:40]hushed calls and not share
[3:13:42]with you. And the
[3:13:44]subject of the email is,
[3:13:46]for lesses eyes only, please do not
[3:13:48]circulate. So the phrase
[3:13:50]gang stuff rules,
[3:13:52]is that a familiar phrase to you
[3:13:54]in this context?
[3:14:03]Jeffrey was like a Brooklyn guy.
[3:14:05]In hindsight, he didn't
[3:14:07]use words like have a confidential
[3:14:09]discussion, or my opinion,
[3:14:11]or this is secret or private or
[3:14:13]confidential personal things that lawyers
[3:14:15]or accountants might use in
[3:14:17]normal language. He would say this is gang
[3:14:19]stuff. Got it.
[3:14:21]So that
[3:14:23]was just how he talked. So it was a
[3:14:25]phrase that Mr. Epstein would use
[3:14:27]to mean confidential
[3:14:29]conversations. To me, yes.
[3:14:31]Okay. And this, I don't think I ever
[3:14:33]used the other words, which in
[3:14:35]hindsight, I didn't.
[3:14:37]But my
[3:14:39]wife would never say it's
[3:14:41]between us, dear.
[3:14:43]They're words or
[3:14:45]phrases that you associate with some people.
[3:14:47]And to me, it was just kind of funny
[3:14:49]that this Brooklyn guy would talk about gang
[3:14:51]stuff. Gang stuff
[3:14:53]might be what he ate for dinner or something.
[3:14:55]Would he use that phrase pretty
[3:14:57]commonly, whether it's in a verbal conversation
[3:14:59]or written email?
[3:15:01]I don't specifically
[3:15:04]remember, but I would
[3:15:06]I don't think he ever said
[3:15:08]confidential or private.
[3:15:10]It was like his language.
[3:15:12]Thank you. With respect
[3:15:18]to, we can move on from that email.
[3:15:20]With respect to
[3:15:22]the power
[3:15:24]of attorney that gave Mr.
[3:15:26]Epstein in 1991,
[3:15:28]I know it was discussed earlier,
[3:15:30]could you just flesh
[3:15:32]out for us a little bit
[3:15:34]the theory of
[3:15:36]an unfettered power
[3:15:38]of attorney? In other words, it wasn't
[3:15:40]conditional or restricted to a particular
[3:15:42]account or particular type of asset
[3:15:44]it covered, as we understand it,
[3:15:46]all of your assets, which
[3:15:48]is an enormous, I think, step
[3:15:50]of trust. What is your recollection
[3:15:52]of why you made
[3:15:54]that choice?
[3:15:58]I think power
[3:16:00]of attorney is that.
[3:16:02]So the notion of having a
[3:16:04]limited power of attorney
[3:16:06]was kind of
[3:16:08]and that's just not how I would think about
[3:16:10]it. Harold had a
[3:16:12]power of attorney. Jeffrey had
[3:16:14]a power of attorney. Dennis Hirsch had a power
[3:16:16]of attorney because they needed it to
[3:16:18]do their work. And
[3:16:20]the advisor, as you recall,
[3:16:22]it sounds like the previous
[3:16:24]advisor before Mr. Epstein
[3:16:26]and the subsequent advisor after
[3:16:28]Mr. Epstein both had
[3:16:30]the same scope of
[3:16:32]power of attorney?
[3:16:34]I don't know specifically, but
[3:16:36]I would think they were
[3:16:38]I don't recall what the words say,
[3:16:40]but I think power of attorney
[3:16:42]is that.
[3:16:49]We've seen reporting, I think,
[3:16:51]in the New York Times that you
[3:16:53]accompanied Mr. Epstein
[3:16:55]to visit the White House
[3:16:57]in 1993,
[3:16:59]a few months after President
[3:17:01]Clinton took office.
[3:17:03]Do you have any recollection
[3:17:05]of that? Absolutely.
[3:17:07]Didn't happen.
[3:17:09]Didn't happen? Well, I'd been at the White House.
[3:17:11]But the only time I was at the White House
[3:17:13]when Clinton was president,
[3:17:15]he invited a group of
[3:17:17]like 20 CEOs from around the country
[3:17:19]to get feedback on the economy.
[3:17:21]And that was it.
[3:17:23]And
[3:17:26]I was there like the president of one of the
[3:17:28]lumber companies, the chairman of
[3:17:30]JP Morgan,
[3:17:32]Sears, companies like that.
[3:17:34]I was kind of the smallest
[3:17:36]fish in that bowl.
[3:17:38]But it was that purpose.
[3:17:40]Mr. Epstein was not present. Of course not.
[3:17:42]So
[3:17:44]as far as you know, you did not visit
[3:17:46]the White House under any administration
[3:17:48]with Mr. Epstein.
[3:17:50]I never visited the White House
[3:17:52]under any administration
[3:17:54]under any circumstance with Mr. Epstein.
[3:17:56]That I'm positive of.
[3:17:58]The New York Times
[3:18:02]has also reported that at your
[3:18:04]59th birthday party,
[3:18:06]Mr. Epstein acted as sort of
[3:18:08]a master of ceremonies.
[3:18:10]He would give toasts and introduce guests
[3:18:12]and arrange for some people such as Alan
[3:18:14]Dershowitz and Simone Perez to
[3:18:16]attend. Do you recall the
[3:18:18]party that I'm describing?
[3:18:23]Well, Shimon was at a couple of birthday
[3:18:25]parties. I don't remember
[3:18:27]Jeffrey being there.
[3:18:29]If the party was in
[3:18:31]Columbus, I probably could remember
[3:18:33]four or five of the people that were there.
[3:18:35]And it was a surprise too.
[3:18:37]Do you recall
[3:18:39]I suppose at any birthday party,
[3:18:41]but that one in particular, Mr.
[3:18:43]Epstein playing that sort of
[3:18:45]a role as a master of ceremonies
[3:18:47]of sorts? No.
[3:18:51]I'm thinking
[3:18:53]even at the party
[3:18:55]that I was thinking about, Simone Perez.
[3:18:57]If you asked me who was there,
[3:18:59]he wouldn't have been on the list.
[3:19:01]That's not who I remember. It was a different
[3:19:03]kind of
[3:19:05]group of friends that Abigail
[3:19:07]picked to come to the party.
[3:19:09]But to the original question, do you
[3:19:11]recall Mr. Epstein ever acting as a master
[3:19:13]of ceremonies at a birthday party
[3:19:15]for you? No, absolutely not.
[3:19:17]Never.
[3:19:25]You're going to keep quoting the New York Times?
[3:19:27]It's a good thing
[3:19:29]I don't read newspapers very often.
[3:19:31]That's crazy.
[3:19:42]I'd like to introduce as minority
[3:19:44]exhibit H.
[3:19:46]I'll give you a moment to look this over.
[3:20:13]It's just one page.
[3:21:10]So this is
[3:21:12]a file that was part of the recent
[3:21:14]DOJ release, and it's
[3:21:16]some kind of draft or
[3:21:18]fully composed email from Mr.
[3:21:20]Epstein. It appears to be intended
[3:21:22]for you. We do not
[3:21:24]have knowledge of whether you ever received
[3:21:26]it. Did you ever receive this
[3:21:28]email? Sorry, just for the
[3:21:30]record. Did you ever receive this email?
[3:21:32]I never received this email.
[3:21:34]No letter or whatever it was.
[3:21:36]Understanding that
[3:21:38]you have not received it and therefore have
[3:21:40]not previously seen it, is that correct?
[3:21:42]Other than anything that counsel may have shown
[3:21:44]him. I would
[3:21:46]like to touch on a few discreet
[3:21:48]parts of it.
[3:21:50]Mr. Epstein
[3:21:52]at one point,
[3:21:54]early in the email, says that, quote,
[3:21:56]I owe a great debt to you
[3:21:58]as frankly you owe to me.
[3:22:00]Would you have any sense
[3:22:02]of why he might feel that way in general?
[3:22:04]Or did he ever express that type
[3:22:06]of a sentiment to you? No.
[3:22:08]When I saw
[3:22:10]this,
[3:22:12]like I know
[3:22:14]what you do or people do, they write
[3:22:16]letters to the file. I've never written
[3:22:18]one like a memo to myself.
[3:22:20]And so I read this and I
[3:22:22]thought this is like cover your ass
[3:22:24]kind of thing.
[3:22:26]And this doesn't even sound the way he
[3:22:28]speaks.
[3:22:30]And just nonsense in it.
[3:22:32]He also
[3:22:34]said, quote, as I'm sure you recall,
[3:22:36]you didn't sit with your mother
[3:22:38]or sister or Sharon when the
[3:22:40]conflict arose as I did
[3:22:42]it for you. You didn't sit with Jack
[3:22:44]Kessler, Stanley or Stanley's son.
[3:22:46]I did it for you.
[3:22:48]Do you have any sense of what
[3:22:50]Mr. Epstein might be referring to
[3:22:52]there?
[3:22:54]Well, I don't know what he's referring to about
[3:22:56]my mother or my sister.
[3:22:58]I know who Sharon was.
[3:23:00]Stanley, I presume, was
[3:23:02]our previous attorney.
[3:23:04]Stanley Schwartz and his son worked
[3:23:06]in our business and
[3:23:08]worked in it until
[3:23:10]he retired so that
[3:23:12]I don't know what that was talking about.
[3:23:14]Did you ever ask Mr.
[3:23:16]Epstein to mediate
[3:23:18]a dispute or otherwise insert himself
[3:23:20]into a dispute with the individuals
[3:23:22]he mentioned here, your mother or
[3:23:24]sister or Sharon, for example?
[3:23:26]No. Mr. Epstein
[3:23:29]also says that, quote, Abigail
[3:23:31]and I sat. She asked many questions.
[3:23:33]She made many unfair, aggressive
[3:23:35]and false accusations, none
[3:23:37]of which could have been fully answered
[3:23:39]without violating a confidence with
[3:23:41]you. Firstly,
[3:23:43]do you have an understanding of what
[3:23:45]he's referring to in terms of Abigail
[3:23:47]and he having a conversation?
[3:23:51]My wife and I
[3:23:53]have no secret, so
[3:23:55]the fact that he's having a secret,
[3:23:57]it's just nonsense.
[3:23:59]He goes on to say
[3:24:01]that you and I had gang stuff for over
[3:24:03]15 years, a great deal of it
[3:24:05]that she was unaware of.
[3:24:07]I had no intention of divulging any
[3:24:09]confidence of ours, no matter what
[3:24:11]accusations she made. So Mr.
[3:24:13]Epstein, at least, seems to be asserting
[3:24:15]that there was something confidential
[3:24:17]between you and he that your
[3:24:19]wife was not aware of.
[3:24:21]Do you have any sense of what that
[3:24:23]might be? No.
[3:24:25]I'm going to object to the whole thing. This is why
[3:24:29]we have the hearsay rule, but keep going.
[3:24:33]Mr. Epstein goes on to say that
[3:24:35]quote, I always told you I would never
[3:24:37]under any circumstances give it up
[3:24:39]or put you in harm's way
[3:24:41]no matter who, what, or
[3:24:43]when. Do you have any
[3:24:45]sense of what he might be referring to
[3:24:47]there? And I'll need a verbal
[3:24:51]audible. No, absolutely not.
[3:24:53]This is
[3:24:57]cover your ass cycle babble as far as
[3:24:59]I'm concerned. I'd like to do
[3:25:07]one more exhibit on your
[3:25:09]personal relationship with
[3:25:11]Mr. Epstein.
[3:25:13]So this will be Minority
[3:25:20]Exhibit I.
[3:25:22]I'll just tell you briefly what this is.
[3:26:00]It's long and you're
[3:26:02]not going to have to read it. It's a PowerPoint
[3:26:04]presentation that
[3:26:06]the FBI put together
[3:26:08]that looks like within the last year
[3:26:10]summarizing their investigations
[3:26:12]into Jeffrey Epstein
[3:26:14]and Ghislaine Maxwell. It's just their summary
[3:26:16]of the steps they took
[3:26:18]during their investigation and who was
[3:26:20]involved with what. That's what the
[3:26:22]document is. There is
[3:26:24]one page of the document
[3:26:26]that mentions you
[3:26:28]and I'll direct you to that.
[3:26:30]It is all the way toward
[3:26:32]the back.
[3:26:34]I've never seen an FBI
[3:26:36]document. Should
[3:26:38]they be giving this shit to me?
[3:26:40]So there's one page
[3:26:42]towards the back that ends in
[3:26:44]956. I think it's
[3:26:46]the third from the last page
[3:26:48]of the presentation.
[3:26:50]There's an earlier reference on 949.
[3:26:52]Ah, right. Confirming the
[3:26:58]proper. Apologies. There is. Agreed.
[3:27:00]Which page do you want me to look at?
[3:27:02]Ending in
[3:27:04]956, the only substantive
[3:27:06]mention of you.
[3:27:08]Yes. You can see
[3:27:10]this is a slide
[3:27:12]that's titled Prominent Names
[3:27:14]and it's naming some prominent
[3:27:16]individuals who have some
[3:27:18]connection or link to Mr. Epstein.
[3:27:20]Your name appears in
[3:27:22]the middle column all the
[3:27:24]way down at the bottom.
[3:27:26]And under Les Wexner
[3:27:28]it just has one entry.
[3:27:30]There's a name that's redacted and its
[3:27:32]redacted name stated
[3:27:34]Epstein earned his money from having
[3:27:36]homosexual sex with Wexner.
[3:27:38]I know you were asked this question earlier
[3:27:40]but in the context of this FBI
[3:27:42]report, is
[3:27:44]it correct that you did not have any
[3:27:46]sexual or romantic relationship with
[3:27:48]Mr. Epstein? Absolutely
[3:27:50]not or any man ever.
[3:27:52]I'm very straight.
[3:27:54]Super straight.
[3:27:56]Thanks.
[3:27:58]That's wacky.
[3:28:00]I just
[3:28:11]never read an FBI report.
[3:28:19]Go ahead.
[3:28:30]Thank you Mr. Wexner for your
[3:28:32]testimony here today.
[3:28:34]Just wanted to start with a question
[3:28:36]around
[3:28:38]U.S. Senator
[3:28:40]John Husted.
[3:28:42]It's been reported that
[3:28:44]you gave him
[3:28:46]something like $117,000
[3:28:48]in donations.
[3:28:50]Is that correct? I think you mean
[3:28:52]John Husted? I'm John Husted, yep.
[3:28:54]I don't know how much money I gave
[3:28:56]him. Would that sound about right? It's a substantial
[3:28:58]sum.
[3:29:00]I'm thinking I met John
[3:29:02]when he was a state representative and I'm
[3:29:04]sure I helped him. I helped him
[3:29:06]politically. We ran
[3:29:08]for a lieutenant governor.
[3:29:12]I probably contributed to
[3:29:14]a centorial campaign. So
[3:29:16]is it possible over time I would have given
[3:29:18]him that much money it is?
[3:29:20]I think it's recently
[3:29:22]reported that you gave him $117,000
[3:29:24]sometime
[3:29:26]shortly before he voted no
[3:29:28]on releasing the Epstein files. Would that
[3:29:30]sound familiar? No.
[3:29:34]Did you or any of your representatives
[3:29:36]or lobby Senator
[3:29:38]Husted or anybody else in the federal
[3:29:40]government to
[3:29:42]prevent the release of materials
[3:29:44]related to the Jeffrey Epstein file? Absolutely not.
[3:29:46]Did you or your
[3:29:48]representatives ever request that
[3:29:50]the Department of Justice redact your name
[3:29:52]in any files? No.
[3:29:54]Absolutely not.
[3:29:56]I wanted to move on.
[3:29:58]Now I remember the document
[3:30:00]we referenced a little earlier mentioning
[3:30:02]former Prime Minister
[3:30:04]Barack. Did you ever
[3:30:06]have a relationship with the former Prime
[3:30:08]Minister?
[3:30:10]Can you define relationship?
[3:30:12]Any relationship. Do you know
[3:30:14]Prime Minister Barack?
[3:30:16]If so, could you
[3:30:18]elaborate on how familiar you were with him?
[3:30:20]I was only with him
[3:30:22]a couple or three times in my
[3:30:24]life. I happened to be in
[3:30:26]Israel
[3:30:28]when he was elected
[3:30:30]before he was sworn in as Prime
[3:30:32]Minister. We had a brief meeting
[3:30:34]in his
[3:30:36]political office. It wasn't the government
[3:30:38]office.
[3:30:40]May have
[3:30:42]met him
[3:30:44]in Israel when he was Prime Minister, but
[3:30:47]I don't recall. I
[3:30:49]know that I had dinner with
[3:30:51]him and I think his
[3:30:53]wife and daughter and Abigail
[3:30:55]in New
[3:30:57]York after he was
[3:30:59]out of office, I think. I don't think
[3:31:01]he was Prime Minister.
[3:31:03]Did you ever communicate with the Prime Minister
[3:31:05]outside of personal meetings, phone
[3:31:07]calls, emails? He came here once
[3:31:09]I think for Jewish community
[3:31:11]stuff and we went to a football game.
[3:31:13]That's all I remember. Did you ever
[3:31:15]communicate by email or phone call or other
[3:31:17]correspondence? No, I don't think I
[3:31:19]ever had his address or phone number or
[3:31:21]email address or text
[3:31:23]number or whatever.
[3:31:25]Are you
[3:31:27]aware of the Wexner Foundation or
[3:31:29]any other trusts or foundations
[3:31:31]or organizations affiliated with you
[3:31:33]ever donating money
[3:31:35]to the former Prime Minister?
[3:31:37]No. Would it
[3:31:39]surprise you if I told you that
[3:31:41]an FBI report stated
[3:31:43]a report that the Wexner Foundation
[3:31:45]transferred at least $2.3 million
[3:31:47]in U.S. dollars to former Prime
[3:31:49]Minister Ehud Baraj? Shocked.
[3:31:51]Shocked.
[3:31:55]I want to move to a different topic here.
[3:31:57]Are you familiar with the gentleman named Richard Adrian?
[3:31:59]Who? Richard Adrian.
[3:32:01]No.
[3:32:03]Do you remember anybody being a bodyguard
[3:32:05]from you by that name?
[3:32:07]No. No? 1991 to
[3:32:09]1992? No. How many
[3:32:11]bodyguards have you had over the course of your
[3:32:13]career?
[3:32:17]I don't know. Hundreds?
[3:32:19]Dozens? No, not hundreds but
[3:32:21]dozens.
[3:32:23]Now Mr. Adrian
[3:32:25]reported that
[3:32:27]he had accompanied you between 1991
[3:32:29]and 1992 when he was your bodyguard
[3:32:31]to Epstein's Palm
[3:32:33]Beach home. Does that sound familiar at all?
[3:32:35]Objection. That's not what it says.
[3:32:37]That he accompanied
[3:32:39]Mr. Epstein, Mr. Wexner
[3:32:41]to Epstein's property. No, it doesn't say
[3:32:43]that. Are you looking at
[3:32:45]the EFPA 1249191?
[3:32:47]Yeah.
[3:32:49]I don't have it in front of me like that.
[3:32:51]No. It says that he did
[3:32:53]accompany him and then it says the bodyguard
[3:32:55]was at the Epstein residence. It doesn't say the bodyguard
[3:32:57]was at the Epstein residence with Mr.
[3:32:59]Wexner.
[3:33:01]I'm sorry. Did you ever accompany
[3:33:03]the bodyguard to Epstein's
[3:33:05]Palm Beach home?
[3:33:07]Everywhere when they had security.
[3:33:09]And so what surprises you then, I believe
[3:33:11]that this is correct, that the bodyguard
[3:33:13]said that he noticed a number
[3:33:15]of young girls there, noticeably young.
[3:33:17]You've never seen
[3:33:19]young girls at the Epstein property?
[3:33:21]I was only there once for an hour
[3:33:23]with my wife and another couple.
[3:33:25]I have one last question
[3:33:27]and then I'll kick it back.
[3:33:29]You mentioned
[3:33:31]a couple times that you received $20 million
[3:33:33]for the mansion
[3:33:35]on 71st Street in Manhattan.
[3:33:37]How was that money transferred to you?
[3:33:39]I don't know. You don't know?
[3:33:41]How do you know it was ever
[3:33:43]paid to you? Well, I guess Abigail
[3:33:46]would have known. Abigail wouldn't know?
[3:33:48]Whether it was a check, whether it was a money order,
[3:33:50]whether it was
[3:33:52]a bag of money, I have no idea.
[3:33:54]So $20 million you can just take
[3:33:56]someone and say so for it.
[3:33:58]$20 million is a lot of money.
[3:34:00]Airplanes cost a lot of money
[3:34:02]too and I don't know exactly how we pay for them
[3:34:04]or if we sold an airplane exactly how we
[3:34:06]get paid, but we've bought
[3:34:08]and sold personally a few airplanes.
[3:34:10]If you ask me the same question, I don't know.
[3:34:12]And so I think
[3:34:14]we have a number of
[3:34:16]media references in the New York Times. I think
[3:34:18]the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg,
[3:34:20]all noting that no cash was
[3:34:22]transferred at the time of
[3:34:24]a central transaction. No exchange
[3:34:26]of money was noted
[3:34:28]at the time. So do
[3:34:30]you have any records, like after the fact,
[3:34:32]after you learned that Jeffrey Epstein,
[3:34:34]as you put it, stole from
[3:34:36]you, did you ever look into how
[3:34:38]that money was transferred to you?
[3:34:40]No. No? Didn't strike your
[3:34:42]interest even though you knew that Jeffrey Epstein was
[3:34:44]stealing from you? Once I knew he was
[3:34:49]stealing from me, it was, again,
[3:34:51]my wife is a very competent business
[3:34:53]attorney with good accountants,
[3:34:55]I believe good
[3:34:57]counsel, and it's not what I do.
[3:34:59]I don't go
[3:35:01]back and, you know, if
[3:35:03]I fired somebody in the business, I didn't follow
[3:35:05]them to see if they behaved
[3:35:07]badly again. They were done.
[3:35:09]Let me then follow up and ask, did
[3:35:11]your wife ever mention to you
[3:35:13]how the money was transferred? No.
[3:35:15]Or that it was transferred? Objection as to
[3:35:17]spousal privilege, but he's already answered.
[3:35:19]All right. Thank you very much, then.
[3:35:21]Mr. Washington. Steve Lantz,
[3:35:26]math official.
[3:35:28]How long did you know
[3:35:30]Mr. Epstein?
[3:35:32]When did you first meet him?
[3:35:34]I think
[3:35:40]they asked me that question earlier before you
[3:35:42]joined this group. I think it was like
[3:35:44]five years before I got married, about early
[3:35:46]80s, I would guess. Early 80s?
[3:35:48]I think so. I don't remember precisely.
[3:35:50]And
[3:35:52]in all the time that you knew
[3:35:54]him, and he worked for you,
[3:35:56]he was your
[3:35:58]power of attorney, handled
[3:36:00]a lot of really important
[3:36:02]things in your life.
[3:36:04]Did you
[3:36:06]ever, do you remember
[3:36:10]him ever having a romantic
[3:36:12]interest or
[3:36:14]women in your presence
[3:36:16]as his
[3:36:18]guests or associates
[3:36:20]together? I mentioned earlier
[3:36:22]too, the first one
[3:36:24]was Dr. Ava Anderson.
[3:36:26]I met her, and Jeffrey
[3:36:28]said that
[3:36:30]when I first met her, whatever that was,
[3:36:32]early 80s,
[3:36:34]and
[3:36:36]my understanding
[3:36:38]meeting her, Ava was a
[3:36:40]very attractive woman.
[3:36:42]I think she was
[3:36:44]in med school,
[3:36:46]and
[3:36:48]so she was a serious person,
[3:36:50]and she is a serious person.
[3:36:52]She's an ecologist, she's married, she has children.
[3:36:54]And then,
[3:36:56]I don't know how many years later
[3:36:58]he broke up with Ava,
[3:37:00]and Glenn came into his life
[3:37:02]probably
[3:37:04]about the time I got engaged.
[3:37:06]When was that, sir?
[3:37:08]I got engaged
[3:37:10]in nine, I got engaged
[3:37:13]on September 8th,
[3:37:15]1992, because I got
[3:37:17]engaged on my birthday.
[3:37:19]So at that point,
[3:37:21]Epstein's relationship with
[3:37:23]Galaine Maxwell was romantic
[3:37:25]at the time.
[3:37:27]It was about then that I met her,
[3:37:29]and they said they were going to
[3:37:31]get married.
[3:37:33]I was getting married,
[3:37:37]Jeffrey
[3:37:41]was getting married, so it seemed
[3:37:43]like everybody was going to be
[3:37:45]in Happy Valley, in terms
[3:37:47]of their life.
[3:37:49]And
[3:37:51]both women
[3:37:55]I mean, there were grown-up women.
[3:37:57]Galaine is exactly the same
[3:37:59]age as Abigail,
[3:38:01]and very smart.
[3:38:03]She said she was
[3:38:05]like an honors graduate of Cambridge
[3:38:07]or Oxford, and
[3:38:09]quite charming, and
[3:38:11]you know, Jackson,
[3:38:13]and an attractive woman, so I was very
[3:38:15]happy for them.
[3:38:17]Do you ever remember spending time
[3:38:19]with Epstein and any of his other
[3:38:21]romantic interests or girlfriends,
[3:38:23]especially younger women
[3:38:25]in your presence?
[3:38:27]No, there were no others
[3:38:29]that I was present
[3:38:31]or mentioned.
[3:38:33]Ever in his
[3:38:35]presence with
[3:38:37]women who
[3:38:39]may have been of teenage
[3:38:41]or minors?
[3:38:43]You know, I thought about that.
[3:38:46]What did I miss
[3:38:48]about this guy?
[3:38:50]And I don't think I was
[3:38:52]ever with him
[3:38:54]or he was ever with anyone
[3:38:56]as vague in my memory
[3:38:58]that I would say was under the age
[3:39:00]of 28, 30. I mean,
[3:39:02]he was with adult
[3:39:04]women, or
[3:39:06]women that, they looked adult
[3:39:08]they said they were a lawyer
[3:39:10]and accountant or something.
[3:39:12]I know this name has come up earlier in the deposition
[3:39:14]Virginia Dufray.
[3:39:16]Dufray, I'm sorry.
[3:39:18]Do you
[3:39:20]recall ever meeting her
[3:39:22]in Jeffrey's presence?
[3:39:24]Absolutely never.
[3:39:26]Or Virginia Roberts,
[3:39:28]I think her maiden name was?
[3:39:30]No,
[3:39:32]absolutely not.
[3:39:34]How about Ms. Farmer? I thought
[3:39:36]Ms. Farmer might have made allegations
[3:39:38]about something that happened
[3:39:40]here on your property.
[3:39:42]We've actually
[3:39:44]covered it. It wasn't his property,
[3:39:46]it's an adjacent property. An adjacent property.
[3:39:48]Thank you for the clarification.
[3:39:50]Or certainly
[3:39:52]on the adjacent, next door.
[3:39:54]No, never. Was that Mr.
[3:39:56]Kessler?
[3:39:58]Whose property is next door? I'm sorry.
[3:40:00]My friend. My friend
[3:40:02]was business partner and no
[3:40:04]almanac, Jack Kessler. So
[3:40:10]no women who seemed
[3:40:12]unusually young then?
[3:40:14]Absolutely.
[3:40:16]Okay. We also
[3:40:18]understand from your counsel's
[3:40:20]proffer that you
[3:40:22]interacted with a number of other
[3:40:24]prominent people who
[3:40:26]knew and had dealings with
[3:40:28]Epstein, including
[3:40:30]Prince Andrew,
[3:40:32]various professors at
[3:40:34]Harvard,
[3:40:36]perhaps
[3:40:38]a sultan of some sort
[3:40:40]in Dubai,
[3:40:42]perhaps Howard Lutnick.
[3:40:44]With
[3:40:46]respect to Prince Andrew
[3:40:48]who has also been accused
[3:40:50]of sexual
[3:40:52]misconduct in
[3:40:54]connection with at least one woman
[3:40:56]trafficked by Mr. Epstein,
[3:40:58]did you ever see
[3:41:00]or become aware of
[3:41:02]this interaction between
[3:41:04]Prince Andrew and
[3:41:06]one of these young women?
[3:41:10]I never met Prince Andrew
[3:41:12]so I wasn't
[3:41:16]aware of anything other than
[3:41:18]that.
[3:41:20]I had no
[3:41:22]matter about that
[3:41:24]in terms of
[3:41:26]you dealing with
[3:41:28]either introduced by
[3:41:30]Mr. Epstein or by
[3:41:32]Ghislaine Maxwell.
[3:41:34]That whole interaction between
[3:41:36]those two and Prince Andrew.
[3:41:38]I had no
[3:41:40]conversations,
[3:41:42]interactions with Prince
[3:41:44]Andrew about women or anything.
[3:41:46]I had a sentence phone conversation.
[3:41:48]He called me
[3:41:50]here in Columbus.
[3:41:52]What was that for?
[3:41:54]To me it's
[3:41:56]a funny story.
[3:41:58]I'm getting ready to go to work.
[3:42:00]I think I was in the garage
[3:42:02]and my wife or somebody came out
[3:42:04]and said you have a phone call. Maybe it wasn't my wife
[3:42:06]but it was somebody. And he said
[3:42:08]it's a guy that says he's the Duke of York.
[3:42:10]And I thought the Duke of York,
[3:42:12]what the hell is that? So I went in the kitchen
[3:42:14]and said hello.
[3:42:16]This is Andrew.
[3:42:18]I don't think
[3:42:20]he said this is Andrew Duke of York.
[3:42:22]This is Andrew Windsor or whatever he called himself.
[3:42:24]And I said
[3:42:27]hello. And he said
[3:42:29]I helped my mother buy her
[3:42:31]airplane.
[3:42:33]And I know that you buy and sell airplanes
[3:42:35]so if I could be of service
[3:42:37]with you in airplane transactions
[3:42:39]I could help.
[3:42:41]And I said no thank you. We're covered.
[3:42:43]Have a nice day and hang out.
[3:42:45]I just kind of laughed my ass off
[3:42:47]that the Duke of York called me.
[3:42:49]So he cold called you
[3:42:51]to sell you an airplane or to
[3:42:53]help you buy an airplane?
[3:42:55]It was airplane advice because he helped
[3:42:57]us. Was that a plane that you eventually sold to
[3:42:59]Mr. Epson? Oh no.
[3:43:01]It had nothing to do with anything
[3:43:03]that was going on. It was like
[3:43:05]I know that you buy and sell airplanes in your business.
[3:43:07]I know you have bought an airplane
[3:43:09]personally and I know you buy
[3:43:11]and sell airplanes and when you do if you need an advisor
[3:43:13]I'm available.
[3:43:15]It's like no thank you. I'm covered.
[3:43:17]So he offered to advise you on
[3:43:19]purchasing airplanes. Pardon?
[3:43:21]Did he?
[3:43:23]He offered to advise you? I'm just trying to understand
[3:43:25]why the Prince of York
[3:43:27]would be calling you about buying airplanes.
[3:43:29]Yeah me too. It was like out of
[3:43:31]the blue.
[3:43:33]I mean you could have called me up that day
[3:43:35]and said you were the Prince of York
[3:43:37]and you want to advise me on my lunch or something.
[3:43:39]I was like what the hell is this?
[3:43:41]If you were to recognize the difference
[3:43:43]in accents.
[3:43:45]Yeah maybe.
[3:43:47]And
[3:43:49]respect to those other figures
[3:43:51]who I mentioned. Did you ever see
[3:43:53]or become aware of any
[3:43:55]prominent academic figures
[3:43:57]or this so-called
[3:43:59]Sultan of
[3:44:01]Dubai
[3:44:03]or Howard Lutnik
[3:44:05]or any other
[3:44:07]notable person
[3:44:11]being introduced
[3:44:13]to young
[3:44:17]women by either Epstein
[3:44:19]or Maxwell.
[3:44:22]Well I've never met Howard
[3:44:24]Lutnik. I just didn't
[3:44:26]know his name until he became
[3:44:28]popular in the
[3:44:30]news. Yeah his name is
[3:44:32]extensively in the news.
[3:44:34]I just never
[3:44:36]heard his name.
[3:44:38]I didn't know him. Some of the people
[3:44:40]that were on that list, I
[3:44:42]knew their names and some of
[3:44:44]them introduced
[3:44:46]themselves to me.
[3:44:48]But that wasn't his question. I understand.
[3:44:50]Wasn't it?
[3:44:52]No. Oh.
[3:44:54]Because you asked me, I thought you asked if I knew this.
[3:44:56]Any other of those prominent
[3:44:58]individuals
[3:45:00]were you aware that
[3:45:02]either Epstein or
[3:45:04]Ghislaine Maxwell was
[3:45:06]facilitating introductions or
[3:45:08]contact between those
[3:45:10]individuals and young women?
[3:45:12]No. Absolutely not.
[3:45:16]And you yourself sir
[3:45:18]never had physical
[3:45:20]contact with any of these young
[3:45:22]survivors or victims
[3:45:24]as they are alternatively
[3:45:26]called these young women? Never.
[3:45:28]I think that's all I have. Thank you.
[3:45:36]Just two more and then
[3:45:38]we'll give you a break. First
[3:45:40]with respect to the birthday
[3:45:42]note that we looked at earlier
[3:45:44]for Mr. Epstein's birthday,
[3:45:46]just making sure we have your
[3:45:48]testimony, it's that you
[3:45:50]signed the note your friend
[3:45:52]but Mr. Epstein was not ever
[3:45:54]actually your friend from your point
[3:45:56]of view. Is that correct? Correct.
[3:45:58]And you do not have any understanding
[3:46:00]of why you would sign that card
[3:46:02]your friend?
[3:46:11]I think I was sending a birthday note to somebody
[3:46:13]saying your friend or
[3:46:15]something, I wouldn't just sign my name.
[3:46:17]It would be like a
[3:46:19]it's not a salutation
[3:46:21]it's the end
[3:46:23]of a letter or something.
[3:46:25]Yours truly best
[3:46:27]something like that.
[3:46:29]Do you recall
[3:46:31]ever drawing a pair
[3:46:33]of women's breasts on any correspondence
[3:46:35]with any other business
[3:46:37]associate of yours? No.
[3:46:39]We can go off the record.
[3:46:41]We will go on the record
[3:46:49]It's 312
[3:46:51]p.m.
[3:46:53]Mr. Wexner
[3:46:55]I am going to
[3:46:57]ask you to bear with me for a second.
[3:46:59]I have a
[3:47:01]list of names.
[3:47:03]I will ask you
[3:47:05]one question
[3:47:07]that applies to the entirety
[3:47:09]of the list and you will just
[3:47:11]answer yes or no.
[3:47:13]And if you answer yes to one of the names
[3:47:15]we will come back to further explore that name.
[3:47:17]Does that make sense?
[3:47:19]I think so.
[3:47:21]Let's try and see how it works.
[3:47:23]So the question is
[3:47:25]have you ever had a conversation
[3:47:27]with any of the following people
[3:47:29]about Jeffrey Epstein, his crimes
[3:47:31]his criminal investigations
[3:47:33]or in regard to sexual activity of any
[3:47:35]kind? Okay so
[3:47:37]not have you ever had a
[3:47:39]conversation with them but have you
[3:47:41]had a conversation with them about those topics?
[3:47:43]Do you want to repeat it so that we
[3:47:45]can hear?
[3:47:47]Have you ever had a conversation
[3:47:49]with any of the following people
[3:47:51]about Jeffrey Epstein
[3:47:53]his crimes, his criminal
[3:47:55]investigations, or in regard
[3:47:57]to sexual activity of any kind?
[3:47:59]First name is
[3:48:01]Gielin Maxwell
[3:48:03]No
[3:48:05]Richard Kahn
[3:48:07]No
[3:48:09]Darren Endike
[3:48:11]No
[3:48:13]Sarah Kellan
[3:48:16]No
[3:48:18]Leslie Groff
[3:48:20]No
[3:48:22]Nadia Marcinkova
[3:48:24]No
[3:48:28]Cathy Rummler
[3:48:30]No
[3:48:32]Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor formerly Prince Andrew
[3:48:34]No
[3:48:36]Peter Mandelson
[3:48:38]former UK ambassador to the United States
[3:48:42]Steven Hoffenberg
[3:48:45]No
[3:48:47]Jess Staley
[3:48:49]No
[3:48:53]Paul Morris
[3:48:57]Steven Cutler
[3:48:59]No
[3:49:01]Mary Casey
[3:49:03]No
[3:49:05]Justin Nelson
[3:49:07]No
[3:49:09]Leon Black
[3:49:11]No
[3:49:18]Glenn Dubin
[3:49:24]Eva Anderson Dubin
[3:49:26]Kind of put those as question marks
[3:49:31]because I want to be completely
[3:49:33]understood
[3:49:35]Bill Gates
[3:49:37]No
[3:49:39]Any person elected or appointed to any
[3:49:41]federal office?
[3:49:43]No
[3:49:45]Any foreign government officials?
[3:49:47]No
[3:49:49]So you said you wanted to clarify on
[3:49:51]Glenn Dubin and Eva Anderson Dubin?
[3:49:53]Do you have clarification on that?
[3:49:55]Yeah
[3:49:57]I know both of them
[3:49:59]I met Eva
[3:50:01]when I thought she and Jeffrey were
[3:50:03]engaged and going to get married
[3:50:05]and I met Glenn
[3:50:07]at Harvard
[3:50:09]I don't know
[3:50:13]10 or maybe 20 years ago
[3:50:15]he was
[3:50:17]acquainted with
[3:50:19]someone there
[3:50:21]and I was at David
[3:50:23]it might have been David
[3:50:30]Gergen's funeral
[3:50:32]something like that and I saw them
[3:50:34]in 10 or 15 years
[3:50:36]and they said hello and said something
[3:50:38]isn't this a shame?
[3:50:40]What happened to Jeffrey?
[3:50:42]I said yeah it's a shame
[3:50:44]something like that it was that vague
[3:50:46]but most of the names that you
[3:50:48]mentioned I've never heard before
[3:50:50]I don't know those people
[3:50:52]With
[3:50:55]Glenn Dubin you said it was
[3:50:57]10 to 20 years ago at Harvard
[3:50:59]when
[3:51:01]you mentioned
[3:51:03]Eva Anderson
[3:51:05]Dubin you said you thought she was
[3:51:07]engaged to Jeffrey Epstein do you know
[3:51:09]approximately when that was?
[3:51:11]About the time I got engaged to Abigail
[3:51:13]so about 92
[3:51:15]but I haven't seen
[3:51:17]either of them
[3:51:19]until David Gergen's funeral
[3:51:21]for maybe a decade hadn't talked to
[3:51:23]never socialized with him
[3:51:25]Can we just clarify something because I think
[3:51:27]you previously testified that when you met
[3:51:29]Ms. Maxwell it was around the time of
[3:51:31]your engagement to Abigail
[3:51:33]didn't I just say that?
[3:51:35]No you were talking about Eva Anderson
[3:51:37]I'm sorry
[3:51:39]that I got
[3:51:41]I met
[3:51:45]Eva about the time I got
[3:51:49]how could that be?
[3:51:51]I must have met Eva when I met Jeffrey
[3:51:53]and then met
[3:51:57]Glenn when I got engaged
[3:51:59]So Eva would have been
[3:52:01]10 years early
[3:52:03]early to mid 80s?
[3:52:05]Yeah whatever it was
[3:52:10]and I think it was only with her once
[3:52:13]with them once
[3:52:21]So you never just to clarify
[3:52:23]one more name on here
[3:52:25]you never spoke with
[3:52:27]Gillen Maxwell about
[3:52:29]Mr. Epstein or his criminal
[3:52:31]investigations of any kind?
[3:52:41]Never
[3:52:43]It had come out
[3:52:45]a few years ago now
[3:52:47]that Ohio State University did a review
[3:52:49]of donations and they
[3:52:51]identified
[3:52:53]a little over $300,000
[3:52:55]in donations directly from
[3:52:57]Mr. Epstein and one of his foundations
[3:52:59]they also
[3:53:01]Ohio State also reported a gift of
[3:53:03]approximately $2.5 million
[3:53:05]from the COU
[3:53:07]COUQ Foundation
[3:53:09]which is another entity of Mr.
[3:53:11]Epstein's
[3:53:13]Did you help facilitate any donations
[3:53:15]from Jeffrey Epstein to Ohio State
[3:53:17]University?
[3:53:24]Never
[3:53:26]Did you personally ask Mr. Epstein to donate to Ohio State University?
[3:53:28]Never
[3:53:34]Did you ever speak to any Ohio State University
[3:53:36]Board of Trustees members regarding
[3:53:38]Mr. Epstein or his donations to the
[3:53:40]University?
[3:53:42]Never
[3:54:01]We discussed earlier in this
[3:54:03]deposition
[3:54:05]around the time frame of 2019
[3:54:09]if you had any involvement with
[3:54:11]law enforcement as they investigated
[3:54:13]Mr. Epstein for his
[3:54:15]crimes he was ultimately charged with in New York
[3:54:17]Just to clarify
[3:54:19]did you speak to
[3:54:21]any law enforcement agency of any
[3:54:23]kind regarding Jeffrey Epstein's
[3:54:25]investigation in New York in 2019?
[3:54:31]Never
[3:54:33]I don't remember ever talking to any law enforcement agency
[3:54:35]Did you ever provide
[3:54:39]any documentation to any law
[3:54:41]enforcement agency of any kind
[3:54:43]regarding Jeffrey Epstein and his
[3:54:45]investigation in New York in 2019?
[3:54:47]Not to my knowledge
[3:54:49]And just to be clear you never formally
[3:55:11]interviewed with anyone from the FBI
[3:55:13]or Department of Justice about
[3:55:15]Jeffrey Epstein or his criminal
[3:55:17]investigation in 2019?
[3:55:19]Never
[3:55:26]Did Mr. Epstein ever contact you or attempt
[3:55:28]to contact you after his arrest
[3:55:30]in 2019?
[3:55:32]I don't think so
[3:55:34]He was dead
[3:55:36]Before he died?
[3:55:38]No I'm dead with me
[3:55:46]Did anyone affiliated with Mr. Epstein
[3:55:48]ever reach out to you in 2019
[3:55:50]regarding his investigation in
[3:55:52]New York?
[3:55:54]Never
[3:56:14]How did you first learn of
[3:56:16]Jeffrey Epstein's death
[3:56:18]in the MCC in New York
[3:56:20]City?
[3:56:26]Probably watching CNN
[3:56:28]No one directly contacted you about his
[3:56:30]death?
[3:56:32]No
[3:56:34]Did you ever have
[3:56:36]any reason to believe
[3:56:38]that
[3:56:40]Mr. Epstein's life was in any sort
[3:56:42]of danger?
[3:56:46]No
[3:56:48]You mentioned in
[3:56:50]what is
[3:56:52]Majority Exhibit
[3:56:54]3
[3:56:56]Majority Exhibit 3
[3:56:58]Your statement from this morning
[3:57:03]On page 3
[3:57:05]In the second to last paragraph
[3:57:07]Last sentence
[3:57:09]While others visited Epstein in jail
[3:57:11]and associated with him after his release
[3:57:13]I did not. Are you aware of
[3:57:15]who did in fact visit Mr. Epstein
[3:57:17]in jail during that time?
[3:57:23]Directly
[3:57:25]David Gergen told me he did
[3:57:27]After he did
[3:57:29]And can you
[3:57:31]remind us who David Gergen is?
[3:57:33]David
[3:57:35]Gergen was
[3:57:37]a professor of practice at the Kennedy
[3:57:39]School. He was advisor for presidents
[3:57:41]of the United States TV personality
[3:57:43]And
[3:57:45]Did he tell you
[3:57:47]Sorry to cut you off
[3:57:49]Did Mr. Gergen
[3:57:51]tell you anything about his visit to Mr.
[3:57:53]Epstein while he was incarcerated?
[3:57:55]He just told me that he and his wife
[3:57:57]visited Jeffrey and he asked
[3:57:59]me if I did and I said no
[3:58:01]I wouldn't visit that son of a bitch
[3:58:03]I asked him why he did
[3:58:05]Did Mr.
[3:58:16]Gergen inform you as to
[3:58:18]why he went to visit Mr. Epstein
[3:58:20]while he was incarcerated?
[3:58:22]Surprisingly he said
[3:58:24]Sometimes people that you're
[3:58:26]acquainted with get into trouble
[3:58:28]and you should be kind
[3:58:30]or nice to them
[3:58:32]Something that vague which
[3:58:34]seemed completely out of character
[3:58:36]for Gergen
[3:58:38]What was your
[3:58:40]response to Mr. Gergen when he posed that to you?
[3:58:42]I think I said I'm surprised
[3:58:48]that you, David
[3:58:52]I'm going to
[3:58:54]switch gears a little bit here
[3:58:56]You mentioned
[3:59:06]that David Gergen was a
[3:59:08]friend of yours. How do you
[3:59:14]characterize that Mr.
[3:59:16]Gergen was a friend?
[3:59:18]What made him a friend to you?
[3:59:25]We probably met when he went to the
[3:59:29]Kennedy School from
[3:59:31]his job at the White House
[3:59:33]and so he was like a
[3:59:35]professor of practice
[3:59:37]in the center
[3:59:39]of public leadership
[3:59:41]and then he became the director of the center
[3:59:43]of public leadership
[3:59:45]and that was one of my main
[3:59:47]one of my main interests
[3:59:49]is public leadership
[3:59:51]and
[3:59:56]we became friends
[4:00:00]from very different backgrounds
[4:00:02]I didn't have much of an education
[4:00:04]in Yale, Harvard
[4:00:06]working in the White House
[4:00:08]and we became very close friends
[4:00:10]and his wife reminded me
[4:00:12]after his funeral that we would talk
[4:00:14]every Sunday
[4:00:16]and it was like
[4:00:18]I know you might have friends or acquaintances
[4:00:20]you talk to regularly. I didn't even realize
[4:00:22]that we did that. We'd share books, talk about
[4:00:24]what was going on in the world
[4:00:26]and it was very much
[4:00:28]a part of my life
[4:00:30]and he was a wonderful person
[4:00:32]So he was someone you would communicate with frequently?
[4:00:36]Well, about
[4:00:38]if I was bitched out about the government
[4:00:40]I'd call David or we'd be talking
[4:00:42]about what was going on in the
[4:00:44]CPL and we would talk about
[4:00:46]fundraising for CPL or
[4:00:48]interviewing professors for CPL
[4:00:50]and raising money for
[4:00:52]fellowships. It was pretty much
[4:00:54]focused about
[4:00:56]government public interest things
[4:00:58]because that way had in common
[4:01:00]I wasn't
[4:01:02]he was a lawyer and I sold apparel
[4:01:04]so
[4:01:08]Would you say that you talked to Mr. Gergen
[4:01:10]more frequently
[4:01:12]than you talked to
[4:01:14]Mr. Epstein?
[4:01:16]Of course prior to you and Mr. Epstein
[4:01:18]terminating your
[4:01:20]Yeah, I talked to him
[4:01:22]more regularly. I wouldn't have
[4:01:24]remembered the repetition
[4:01:26]or the
[4:01:28]the curiosity
[4:01:30]Anne Gergen told me that after
[4:01:32]David's death how much he looked
[4:01:34]forward to our Sunday calls
[4:01:36]and I don't know as you get older
[4:01:38]sometimes you look back and somebody
[4:01:40]touches your life and
[4:01:42]you don't realize
[4:01:44]that you're calling him every Sunday
[4:01:46]because that was just like
[4:01:48]you brush your teeth every Sunday I'd call him
[4:01:50]or he'd call me
[4:01:55]Apologies. I'm going to switch gears
[4:01:57]quite a bit here
[4:01:59]We're
[4:02:01]discussing a lot earlier that
[4:02:03]the property that
[4:02:05]Mr. Epstein had owned that was
[4:02:07]I believe you characterize
[4:02:09]as adjacent to your property
[4:02:11]formerly Jack Kessler's
[4:02:13]house. When
[4:02:17]at any point
[4:02:19]did
[4:02:21]people need to use
[4:02:23]your gates or go through your property
[4:02:25]to access that
[4:02:27]house?
[4:02:29]Properties were connected
[4:02:31]there's kind of a woods
[4:02:33]between them and
[4:02:35]fields. There was no driveway
[4:02:37]they were separate
[4:02:42]It would be a struggle to
[4:02:44]walk between the two one foot
[4:02:46]Understood
[4:02:48]Speaking about
[4:02:50]your
[4:02:52]boat design
[4:02:54]and manufacture and boat
[4:02:56]launch has been mentioned a
[4:02:58]couple times here today. Did
[4:03:00]Mr. Epstein ever
[4:03:02]travel
[4:03:04]with you or board your yacht
[4:03:06]at any point?
[4:03:08]Not that I recall
[4:03:10]Did Ms. Maxwell ever
[4:03:12]travel with you on that
[4:03:14]boat at any point?
[4:03:16]Absolutely not
[4:03:18]Were there any other
[4:03:20]boat trips that you and
[4:03:22]Mr. Epstein would have taken together
[4:03:24]at any point? None
[4:03:26]I don't think
[4:03:31]I ever went anywhere on that boat
[4:03:33]without my wife and family
[4:03:35]Understood
[4:03:37]Do you
[4:03:39]use any aliases
[4:03:41]or nicknames when you
[4:03:43]communicate with people you're
[4:03:45]associated with?
[4:03:47]Less
[4:03:50]Sometimes LHW
[4:03:52]That's it
[4:03:56]Are you aware of Mr. Epstein
[4:03:58]having any aliases or nicknames
[4:04:00]that he would commonly use?
[4:04:02]No
[4:04:04]Are you aware of Ms. Maxwell having any aliases
[4:04:06]or nicknames that she would commonly use?
[4:04:08]No
[4:04:16]When speaking about your boat
[4:04:18]you seemed to be very
[4:04:20]certain that Ms. Maxwell had never
[4:04:22]taken any type of boat trip with you
[4:04:24]Is there a reason why
[4:04:26]you are more sure about her
[4:04:28]not attending any boat trips with you?
[4:04:33]I'm not sure
[4:04:35]I know that Jeffrey
[4:04:37]has never taken any boat trips
[4:04:39]with me
[4:04:41]That's for sure
[4:04:43]So
[4:04:45]I might not have perfect recall
[4:04:47]but I'm positive he never took any boat trips
[4:04:49]So I'm positive that she never took
[4:04:51]any boat trips because I only saw her
[4:04:53]a couple times in my life
[4:04:55]Understood
[4:04:57]Are you aware
[4:04:59]of
[4:05:01]back up first
[4:05:04]Mr. Epstein
[4:05:06]I've heard a lot of foreign travel
[4:05:08]Would you say that's an accurate statement?
[4:05:16]That's kind of a
[4:05:18]answer because
[4:05:20]I don't want you to be tricking me
[4:05:22]I thought he traveled
[4:05:24]a lot
[4:05:26]When I thought he traveled a lot
[4:05:28]Once I knew he was a fraud I don't believe he
[4:05:30]traveled at all
[4:05:32]He told me he was in Switzerland
[4:05:34]He told me he was anywhere in the world
[4:05:36]I believed him
[4:05:38]I didn't know where he was calling from
[4:05:40]To the best of your knowledge
[4:05:42]he would inform you that he was
[4:05:44]traveling all over the world
[4:05:46]Oh yeah, I'm in Saudi Arabia working for
[4:05:48]the king
[4:05:50]I'm in Switzerland talking to banks
[4:05:52]and I'm really busy and I'm tired and need to hang up
[4:05:54]So he would
[4:05:56]reach out to me
[4:05:58]erratically
[4:06:00]and sometimes
[4:06:02]frequently
[4:06:04]and I never believed that he
[4:06:06]said
[4:06:08]If my wife told me she was in
[4:06:12]Chicago I would believe it
[4:06:14]If my walker said he was in Columbus I would believe it
[4:06:16]If I call Matt up I don't ask
[4:06:18]my lawyer from Columbus I would say are you in Columbus
[4:06:20]or are you in
[4:06:22]bed or wherever the hell you are
[4:06:24]And I think that was part of
[4:06:26]Jeffrey's con and I
[4:06:28]it just grinds the hell out of me
[4:06:30]that he was so busy
[4:06:32]but I don't believe
[4:06:34]any of it now
[4:06:36]I think it was complete bullshit
[4:06:38]Understood
[4:06:40]Is it fair to say
[4:06:44]that Mr. Epstein
[4:06:46]would
[4:06:48]flout that he had
[4:06:50]foreign contacts
[4:06:52]whether it be foreign dignitaries
[4:06:54]or
[4:06:56]contacts
[4:06:58]in foreign governments, something to that effect
[4:07:00]Do you mean flaunt?
[4:07:02]Yes, sorry, long day
[4:07:04]It's been a long day
[4:07:06]Do you have
[4:07:09]any knowledge of Mr. Epstein
[4:07:11]holding
[4:07:13]citizenships in any other countries
[4:07:15]other than the United States of America?
[4:07:17]No
[4:07:19]Have you ever seen Mr. Epstein possess
[4:07:21]any
[4:07:23]other foreign country's passport?
[4:07:25]No
[4:07:27]or any passport including
[4:07:34]an American one
[4:07:38]If Mr. Epstein was
[4:07:40]talking about
[4:07:45]connections he had with
[4:07:47]foreign nations or entities
[4:07:49]is there anyone
[4:07:51]he would most commonly refer to
[4:07:53]when speaking to you?
[4:08:05]Over the period of time mentioned a lot of them
[4:08:07]and somebody would
[4:08:09]repeat at some curiosity
[4:08:11]somebody would mention once
[4:08:13]but it's kind of
[4:08:15]a muddle
[4:08:17]but it was a pretty
[4:08:19]regular flow
[4:08:21]So
[4:08:25]was there anyone he mentioned
[4:08:27]more often than others?
[4:08:29]More often?
[4:08:31]Maybe several times he mentioned
[4:08:43]the Queen of England
[4:08:45]The Queen of England?
[4:08:47]Yeah, the one that died
[4:08:54]Did you ever get the impression
[4:08:56]that Mr. Epstein
[4:08:58]was
[4:09:00]trying to get close
[4:09:04]with people of
[4:09:06]power, influence, wealth
[4:09:08]to better shield himself
[4:09:10]from any type of scrutiny?
[4:09:18]No, it seemed to me that that was
[4:09:20]the milieu that he operated in
[4:09:22]and so it made
[4:09:24]sense to me
[4:09:26]in terms of advice he was giving me
[4:09:28]that he was dealing with the most sophisticated
[4:09:30]people and they were his clients
[4:09:32]And so
[4:09:40]based off that response
[4:09:42]would it be fair to say that
[4:09:46]you would believe that could
[4:09:48]be part of his con?
[4:09:50]Was touting all these connections
[4:09:52]he had all around the world?
[4:09:54]As I look back at it today
[4:09:56]I'm positive it was his con
[4:09:58]I mean, as positive as
[4:10:00]I could know
[4:10:02]The founders of Google
[4:10:04]The
[4:10:06]President of the United States
[4:10:08]The King of Saudi Arabia would go on and on
[4:10:10]It was almost every month
[4:10:12]I'm off to do this with that
[4:10:14]or I'm going here and there
[4:10:16]and he was in a trust position
[4:10:18]and foolishly I never
[4:10:20]questioned
[4:10:22]he was just
[4:10:24]bullshitting me that these weren't really
[4:10:26]his clients
[4:10:30]And
[4:10:32]is it your testimony today
[4:10:35]that
[4:10:37]if Jeffrey Epstein
[4:10:39]was enriched by his
[4:10:41]connection to you
[4:10:43]that all of that
[4:10:45]enrichment was gained through theft
[4:10:47]deceit
[4:10:49]and or without your knowledge?
[4:10:55]I'm not sure I understand the question
[4:10:57]Do I know where
[4:10:59]Jeffrey got his money?
[4:11:01]I know he stole money from us
[4:11:03]I believed he had
[4:11:05]substantial income
[4:11:07]from these make believe clients
[4:11:09]that afforded him the lifestyle
[4:11:11]that he had
[4:11:13]but that made
[4:11:15]sense to me
[4:11:19]And
[4:11:21]you were
[4:11:24]you got engaged
[4:11:26]in 1992
[4:11:28]Do I have that correct?
[4:11:30]September 8th, 1992
[4:11:32]And you were married then in
[4:11:34]the following year in 1993?
[4:11:36]1-2-3
[4:11:38]That's how I remember that one
[4:11:40]And at any point
[4:11:42]after your engagement and your
[4:11:44]ultimate marriage did you ever
[4:11:46]engage in any extramarital
[4:11:48]affair
[4:11:50]or sexual contact with anyone
[4:11:52]other than your wife?
[4:11:54]No one
[4:11:56]I'm really happy you asked that question
[4:12:00]Is it
[4:12:57]Mr. Wexner
[4:13:01]Is it your testimony here today
[4:13:03]that
[4:13:05]Mr. Epstein's wealth
[4:13:07]came from
[4:13:09]not only
[4:13:11]yourself
[4:13:13]but also this extensive
[4:13:15]network of
[4:13:17]of clients
[4:13:19]that also were wealthier
[4:13:21]otherwise influential individuals
[4:13:23]Good question
[4:13:25]Absolutely
[4:13:27]And you know sitting here
[4:13:29]today
[4:13:31]with
[4:13:33]the benefit of hindsight being
[4:13:35]2020
[4:13:37]How do you think
[4:13:41]that the United States Congress
[4:13:43]could prevent
[4:13:45]the crimes and in your words
[4:13:47]cons and deceits that
[4:13:49]Mr. Epstein and by extension
[4:13:51]Ms. Maxwell committed on
[4:13:53]victims around the world
[4:13:55]and specifically in the United States
[4:13:57]I would hope that
[4:14:04]this interview
[4:14:06]or whatever it is today
[4:14:08]would help you to understand
[4:14:10]that he was a crook
[4:14:12]and a con man
[4:14:14]and in hindsight
[4:14:18]looking back
[4:14:20]he would make
[4:14:22]Bernie Madoff look like a boy scout
[4:14:24]so complete
[4:14:26]so diabolical
[4:14:28]I mean just incredible
[4:14:30]sinister
[4:14:32]If I were giving the government
[4:14:34]advice I told the IRS
[4:14:36]to look into Jeffrey
[4:14:38]He couldn't have made all that money and spent all that money
[4:14:40]and had the lifestyle
[4:14:42]he did and be the crook that he was
[4:14:44]and pay taxes
[4:14:46]If he would
[4:14:48]do the things that he did
[4:14:50]to those women and do the things that he did
[4:14:52]to me
[4:14:54]then
[4:14:56]anything is possible
[4:14:58]I believe
[4:15:00]and so the
[4:15:02]you know Al Capone
[4:15:06]went to jail for
[4:15:08]being a crook and tax evasion
[4:15:10]it would be so obvious
[4:15:12]to me today that
[4:15:14]now that I know Jeffrey is a crook
[4:15:16]and the things he did and the people he was
[4:15:18]associated with there was a lot of money
[4:15:20]and he got it from a lot of people
[4:15:22]I can't believe
[4:15:24]that he
[4:15:26]had time to really work
[4:15:28]because he was playing so god damn
[4:15:30]much and I never knew it
[4:15:34]If my attorney or your attorney
[4:15:36]I don't know if I would assume your attorney
[4:15:38]but if you had one and every time you talked
[4:15:40]to him and he said I'm in the office working on
[4:15:42]your stuff I don't think you'd run over there
[4:15:44]to see whether he was working on your stuff
[4:15:46]or believe that he wasn't in the office
[4:15:48]but the con was so
[4:15:52]just crazy
[4:15:54]I mean I've searched
[4:15:56]my memory and say why didn't I pick up
[4:15:58]clues and I think he would have
[4:16:00]he could trick me all over again
[4:16:02]if I was you know
[4:16:04]if I was in that
[4:16:06]position of trust with someone like that
[4:16:08]really bad
[4:16:10]I think unbelievable
[4:16:12]stuff to me
[4:16:14]now that I look back
[4:16:16]people that he said he knew
[4:16:18]I don't believe he knew them
[4:16:20]people that he said he
[4:16:22]worked for or where he went
[4:16:24]but you don't do what he did
[4:16:26]and just rob one bank
[4:16:28]I think bank robbers rob a lot of
[4:16:30]banks that's how I look at him
[4:16:34]Are you
[4:16:38]aware did any other
[4:16:40]individual
[4:16:42]come to you at any point
[4:16:44]and
[4:16:46]make clear to you that they felt they had been
[4:16:48]defrauded or
[4:16:50]otherwise wronged by Mr.
[4:16:52]Epstein in any way?
[4:16:54]No and crazily enough
[4:16:56]no one ever called for a reference
[4:16:58]No one ever called you for a
[4:17:00]reference? No one
[4:17:02]people would call
[4:17:04]that he said like
[4:17:06]the chief technologist
[4:17:08]of Google
[4:17:10]and then a guy would call up and say he was the
[4:17:12]chief technologist of Google
[4:17:14]and I want to build a boat
[4:17:16]so somebody says they know
[4:17:18]the chief technologist the guy calls you up
[4:17:20]and says hello I'm the chief technologist
[4:17:22]I didn't
[4:17:24]I mean I could have been talking to an
[4:17:26]actor in hindsight
[4:17:28]I mean that
[4:17:30]it's just
[4:17:34]I don't think I've ever been conned before I've seen
[4:17:36]movies about it
[4:17:38]I think if
[4:17:40]the government really
[4:17:42]understands that
[4:17:44]then a lot of things you'd be able to dig
[4:17:46]into that
[4:17:48]I just
[4:17:50]he should be exposed
[4:18:07]I think that ends it for us right now we'll go off the record
[4:18:09]We can go
[4:18:15]back on
[4:18:17]the record
[4:18:21]I've got just a few
[4:18:23]sort of individual clean up questions
[4:18:25]about things we've talked about earlier
[4:18:27]I'll just move through
[4:18:29]them chronologically
[4:18:31]going all the way back to when you
[4:18:33]first hired Mr. Epstein
[4:18:35]if you could just articulate what you
[4:18:37]recall about what you thought
[4:18:39]you were getting from him
[4:18:41]you describe what he ended up doing for you
[4:18:43]but what did you understand yourself
[4:18:45]to be hiring him for at
[4:18:47]the time
[4:18:56]when I
[4:19:03]met Jeffrey
[4:19:05]I had somebody managing
[4:19:07]my personal stuff
[4:19:09]because there was just a lot of stuff suddenly
[4:19:11]complexity in my personal
[4:19:13]life and I didn't realize
[4:19:15]that I had so much complexity
[4:19:17]until one day it's there
[4:19:19]so to me it was
[4:19:21]my personal set of stuff
[4:19:23]was like one day it's a coal and the next day
[4:19:25]it's a blizzard and I realized I got
[4:19:27]houses and stuff
[4:19:29]that should be inventoried
[4:19:31]you know buying a car
[4:19:33]selling a car with just a lot
[4:19:35]of stuff and
[4:19:37]hired Harold
[4:19:39]and just
[4:19:41]to make sure that I went somebody
[4:19:43]who had accounting
[4:19:45]not financial sense because I wasn't looking
[4:19:47]to make more money just someone to kind of
[4:19:49]manage things and so today
[4:19:51]I guess you'd call a
[4:19:53]family office person
[4:19:55]because I wasn't looking for accounting
[4:19:57]and I wasn't looking for investment
[4:19:59]I was just looking for someone to just
[4:20:01]make sure that everything was in
[4:20:03]order and nothing crazy was happening
[4:20:05]and
[4:20:07]I had sense that Jeffrey
[4:20:09]or that Harold
[4:20:11]wasn't doing a good
[4:20:13]enough job just didn't have the bandwidth
[4:20:15]for the complexity
[4:20:17]and mentioned
[4:20:19]to Bob and Wendy that
[4:20:21]things were a mess
[4:20:23]or I was worried they were
[4:20:25]a mess and then
[4:20:27]drove down the street
[4:20:29]as I mentioned met him
[4:20:31]and
[4:20:33]asked him
[4:20:35]I don't know if it was six months later or a year
[4:20:37]later something talking to Bob
[4:20:39]and Wendy they said we should call him
[4:20:41]say call him and say do you remember when
[4:20:43]we met
[4:20:45]I said I've got a
[4:20:47]guy running my stuff
[4:20:49]personal stuff because I want to keep
[4:20:51]business away from personal
[4:20:53]and we could you take a look at it
[4:20:55]you're smart you're financially
[4:20:57]oriented and he said it's not
[4:20:59]what I do but you know
[4:21:01]you're Wendy's friend you're Bob's friend
[4:21:03]I'll come and take a look so
[4:21:05]he started
[4:21:07]doing that and said
[4:21:09]Harold isn't very competent
[4:21:11]nothing's amiss
[4:21:13]it's not tidied up the way
[4:21:15]you think you should way I think
[4:21:17]a professional would think things should
[4:21:19]be tidied in your financial
[4:21:21]personal life
[4:21:23]and I said you know
[4:21:25]but you
[4:21:27]looked at this what do I owe you
[4:21:29]and again part of the con was
[4:21:31]I don't want to be paid
[4:21:33]and so after two years
[4:21:35]of him sorting
[4:21:37]it out cleaning it out
[4:21:39]I thought
[4:21:43]started to pay him for
[4:21:45]the work
[4:21:47]I don't remember what it was
[4:21:49]at the time but
[4:21:51]in terms of professional fees
[4:21:53]and whatever I thought it was
[4:21:55]fair and that's
[4:21:57]how it happens so
[4:21:59]I think I'm giving
[4:22:01]a long answer but to understand
[4:22:03]context
[4:22:05]because if I just say yes or no
[4:22:07]you won't understand it
[4:22:09]I really want
[4:22:11]this whole group to understand it
[4:22:13]and
[4:22:15]I never
[4:22:17]would have guessed I was being conned
[4:22:19]never ever
[4:22:21]the deceit
[4:22:23]was so subtle
[4:22:25]yes I never
[4:22:27]answer the question
[4:22:29]I'm sure we all appreciate the stories
[4:22:31]we're just trying to answer the questions
[4:22:33]they actually want to be answered
[4:22:35]that's very helpful thank you
[4:22:37]I hope it is and could I ask you
[4:22:39]I think you said in the last hour
[4:22:41]it was your understanding that Mr.
[4:22:43]Epstein while he was working
[4:22:45]for you also had other clients
[4:22:47]is that right yes
[4:22:49]so would
[4:22:51]that mean that his work for you you understood
[4:22:53]it to be part time
[4:23:03]I wouldn't describe it that way
[4:23:05]I knew it was in full time
[4:23:07]I thought it was in full time
[4:23:09]because he had other clients of substance
[4:23:11]real substance
[4:23:13]as a listener it sounds like
[4:23:15]substantial demands that you're
[4:23:17]describing you were and of course are
[4:23:19]one of the wealthiest people in the country
[4:23:21]managing all of your personal affairs
[4:23:23]I would think would typically
[4:23:25]demand all of somebody's bandwidth
[4:23:27]sounds like that was an issue with the
[4:23:29]guy before Epstein how was he
[4:23:31]able to do that job but also
[4:23:33]do work for other clients at the same time
[4:23:39]I think Peg does the work now
[4:23:43]I think you could
[4:23:45]supervise the work
[4:23:47]overview it
[4:23:49]which
[4:23:52]isn't the work that I do
[4:23:54]and say you could do
[4:23:56]really thorough work if you were doing it
[4:23:58]three or four days a month
[4:24:00]certainly a week or a day
[4:24:02]a month just focusing on these things
[4:24:04]because there were accountants and
[4:24:06]tax lawyers and other people
[4:24:08]and then what's in setting
[4:24:10]up as an example
[4:24:12]I wouldn't
[4:24:14]I didn't have the idea to inventory
[4:24:16]furniture or
[4:24:18]valuables
[4:24:20]how could you have
[4:24:22]all solar wear in your house
[4:24:24]and what
[4:24:26]I didn't count forks and spoons
[4:24:28]so people could be walking
[4:24:30]out with forks and spoons
[4:24:32]that's a good idea we ought to have an inventory
[4:24:34]there was
[4:24:36]I hired
[4:24:38]a lady to be like the house manager
[4:24:40]who had run the US
[4:24:42]embassy in Rome and said
[4:24:44]yeah I know how to do this and I said
[4:24:46]why don't we keep inventories
[4:24:48]of stuff and she said
[4:24:50]yeah I could do that so she did
[4:24:52]that as a puny
[4:24:54]example but I wouldn't have had the idea
[4:24:56]but then all
[4:24:58]the things were inventoried that wasn't
[4:25:00]work for me or Jeffrey it was
[4:25:02]just regularly done
[4:25:13]answer the question okay
[4:25:15]a discreet question on a different topic
[4:25:17]we know that at one
[4:25:19]point you owned a property in
[4:25:21]Palm Beach it was a large
[4:25:23]oceanfront estate
[4:25:25]we understand that you sold that
[4:25:27]estate to a guy named
[4:25:29]Abe Ghostman or Gosman
[4:25:31]and that later Mr.
[4:25:33]Trump and Mr. Epstein got into a
[4:25:35]bidding war over that property
[4:25:37]do you have any knowledge of or did you
[4:25:39]have any involvement in that
[4:25:41]dispute between Mr. Epstein and
[4:25:43]Mr. Trump no
[4:25:53]I'd like to touch on a few
[4:25:55]specific allegations that have
[4:25:57]been made with respect to Mr. Epstein's
[4:25:59]crimes Maria Farmer
[4:26:01]has been discussed several times today
[4:26:03]I'll try not to repeat
[4:26:05]that too much but there are a few aspects
[4:26:07]of her story that I did want to touch on
[4:26:09]with you Ms. Farmer has said
[4:26:11]that the home that
[4:26:13]we've discussed you said Mr. Kessler
[4:26:15]sold it to Mr. Epstein it's adjacent
[4:26:17]to your property
[4:26:19]Ms. Farmer has said that that home at the
[4:26:21]time was guarded by
[4:26:23]your security staff
[4:26:25]and at least one member of your
[4:26:27]security staff told the Washington Post
[4:26:29]that that was accurate at least at
[4:26:31]the time which I think was 1996
[4:26:33]do you have any sense
[4:26:35]of why this home
[4:26:37]that at that point was not on your property
[4:26:39]and wasn't your home would have been
[4:26:41]guarded by your security
[4:26:43]staff objection of the hearsay
[4:26:45]answer
[4:26:47]no do you have any knowledge as to whether
[4:26:49]or not the home was guarded by your
[4:26:51]security staff either then or
[4:26:53]now then for sure
[4:26:58]not my daughter lives there now
[4:27:00]with her husband so I'm sure they pay
[4:27:02]attention to it but I don't know for sure
[4:27:04]that because it's part of the
[4:27:06]family that they pay attention to it
[4:27:08]but that's as close as I can get
[4:27:10]when it was owned by Mr.
[4:27:12]Kessler and Mr. Epstein you have no knowledge
[4:27:14]of whether or not it was guarded
[4:27:16]by your security staff
[4:27:20]I have no knowledge I would doubt that
[4:27:22]frankly fucking
[4:27:24]possible
[4:27:26]does that sound strange at all it sounds a little strange
[4:27:28]to us as readers and listeners that
[4:27:30]a home that is not yours would be
[4:27:32]affirmatively guarded by your
[4:27:34]security
[4:27:36]Ms. Farmer says that she
[4:27:40]in the wake of her assault reached out
[4:27:42]to the county sheriff's office
[4:27:44]and that she was told quote
[4:27:46]we work for Wexner and the
[4:27:48]sheriff's office confirmed that at that time
[4:27:50]they were contracted to assist
[4:27:52]with your security detail
[4:27:54]do you have any sense of why that
[4:27:56]would have been the case
[4:27:58]same objection to the hearsay
[4:28:00]answer
[4:28:02]no the closest I could get to
[4:28:04]that would be
[4:28:06]sometimes
[4:28:08]people who work for county security
[4:28:10]Columbus police force
[4:28:12]we would use part-time
[4:28:14]police
[4:28:16]like at
[4:28:18]entrances or patrolling but
[4:28:20]not they wouldn't have been
[4:28:22]employees of ours
[4:28:24]so it's possible but I didn't
[4:28:26]it's weird
[4:28:28]I don't know the sheriff
[4:28:30]could you elaborate for a moment on what would that
[4:28:32]part-time role have been like a special
[4:28:34]event they would be at the entrance
[4:28:36]yeah it would have been special events
[4:28:40]yeah that's very accurate
[4:28:42]Ms. Farmer
[4:28:44]says that that summer when she wanted
[4:28:46]to leave the home she had to call
[4:28:48]the main house your house and ask
[4:28:50]for your wife's permission do you have any
[4:28:52]knowledge about whether that's accurate
[4:28:54]I have I doubt
[4:28:56]that it's accurate and I have no knowledge
[4:28:58]and I think you said earlier
[4:29:01]but just to make sure
[4:29:03]when did you first become aware of
[4:29:05]Ms. Farmer's allegations
[4:29:07]in the press
[4:29:09]did
[4:29:11]your security staff or anyone else
[4:29:13]on your staff ever alert you
[4:29:15]to any unusual incident
[4:29:17]or event involving Mr. Epstein
[4:29:19]at the home that we've been
[4:29:21]discussing are you aware of
[4:29:29]any other incidents related to
[4:29:31]sexual assault or misconduct
[4:29:33]or somebody on your property
[4:29:35]or Mr. Epstein's former property
[4:29:37]adjacent call the
[4:29:39]Sheriff's office for help
[4:29:41]absolutely not not aware
[4:29:46]I'd like to touch on
[4:29:51]Victoria's Secret
[4:29:53]and Mr. Epstein presenting himself as
[4:29:55]a recruiter again I know it's been discussed
[4:29:57]earlier I'll try to cover new
[4:29:59]ground to the extent possible
[4:30:01]I think you had testified that
[4:30:03]you were alerted to that issue once
[4:30:05]it's been publicly reported
[4:30:07]that in 1993
[4:30:09]President Cynthia
[4:30:11]Fetus Fields who was an executive
[4:30:13]at Victoria's Secret at the time
[4:30:15]was alerted that Epstein was holding
[4:30:17]himself out as a Victoria's Secret
[4:30:19]scout and that you were alerted
[4:30:21]to the problem and quote said that
[4:30:23]you would stop it does that sound
[4:30:25]like the time frame in
[4:30:27]which you recall being told about the issue
[4:30:29]maybe it doesn't
[4:30:31]it could have been I was trying to think when
[4:30:33]she worked in the business
[4:30:35]and when she left
[4:30:37]but yeah probably right
[4:30:39]I don't know for sure what do you specifically
[4:30:41]recall about when you were
[4:30:43]alerted to the issue
[4:30:45]in other words who approached you and
[4:30:47]what did they describe specifically
[4:30:49]something like
[4:31:01]Cheffley's trying to pick up women
[4:31:03]and he says he's a Victoria's
[4:31:05]Secret talent scout
[4:31:07]and I said
[4:31:09]that's yeah
[4:31:11]terrible the nonsense
[4:31:13]or I'll put a stop to it
[4:31:15]something like that because I couldn't
[4:31:17]it could be possible I think in my
[4:31:19]memory but I didn't believe
[4:31:21]it but I know I called him up and said
[4:31:23]are you
[4:31:26]you know Jeffrey what is going on
[4:31:28]he said do you think I'm stupid
[4:31:30]I said because I hope not because
[4:31:32]if not you'll be dead
[4:31:34]it was a brief very brief conversation
[4:31:36]I remember him being definite
[4:31:38]about it didn't happen
[4:31:40]that and I'm
[4:31:44]it wasn't a long conversation I was
[4:31:46]mad so it was a blanket
[4:31:48]denial from Mr. Epstein
[4:31:50]that's very accurate
[4:31:52]and did you
[4:31:54]believe or were you convinced by
[4:31:56]his denial at the time
[4:31:58]at the time yes I did believe
[4:32:00]it so is it right that
[4:32:02]you were not no longer upset
[4:32:04]following that conversation because you
[4:32:06]believed that he had not in fact
[4:32:08]held himself out as a scout
[4:32:10]that's accurate yes that's how
[4:32:12]I felt do you recall whether you had
[4:32:14]the impression that your executives
[4:32:16]simply made the story up
[4:32:18]or recall
[4:32:26]just knowing how I think about things
[4:32:28]I probably
[4:32:32]would have said this is just
[4:32:34]Jeffrey Single
[4:32:36]you know it's
[4:32:38]a thing to say a rumor could get
[4:32:40]started I gotta chase it down because
[4:32:42]God forbid that
[4:32:44]anybody was doing in the business let alone
[4:32:46]outside the business was dating
[4:32:48]people in the business or dating models
[4:32:50]or recruiting them or any
[4:32:52]of the stuff that we now know
[4:32:54]I was too out of fired him on the spot
[4:32:56]in May 1997
[4:32:59]a young woman named Alicia Arden
[4:33:01]says that she was introduced to a
[4:33:03]man who identified himself as a
[4:33:05]talent scout for Victoria's Secret
[4:33:07]that was Jeffrey Epstein
[4:33:09]Mr. Epstein allegedly invited Ms. Arden
[4:33:11]to his hotel room in Santa Monica
[4:33:13]California to audition for
[4:33:15]the catalog when she arrived
[4:33:17]Mr. Epstein grabbed her
[4:33:19]tried to undress her and said he wanted to
[4:33:21]quote manhandle her
[4:33:23]Ms. Arden fled in tears and filed a police
[4:33:25]report it's one of the earliest allegations
[4:33:27]that are known against Mr.
[4:33:29]Epstein. Were you alerted
[4:33:31]to this sexual assault at the time?
[4:33:33]Same objection to your side but
[4:33:35]go ahead. Kind of the same answer
[4:33:37]I don't know how I
[4:33:39]knew about it and
[4:33:41]called Jeffrey like
[4:33:43]what the hell is going on Jeffrey?
[4:33:45]Do you think I'm stupid?
[4:33:47]Like this
[4:33:49]was a bad girl you know I was
[4:33:51]on a date she made all this stuff up
[4:33:53]you don't think I behaved this way would you?
[4:33:55]Like I hope not
[4:33:57]that's probably what I said
[4:33:59]because I couldn't believe in anybody that I
[4:34:01]knew would behave
[4:34:03]like that. And what you're describing
[4:34:05]is that the original
[4:34:07]single conversation you described earlier
[4:34:09]or is that a separate conversation
[4:34:11]with Mr. Epstein about the issue?
[4:34:13]This question about
[4:34:19]the lady
[4:34:21]in the hotel in New York was one conversation
[4:34:23]and the notion
[4:34:25]or the discussion about
[4:34:27]Jeffrey's interviewing models
[4:34:29]I think was a separate one
[4:34:31]and they didn't happen simultaneously.
[4:34:33]I understand it sounds like that might
[4:34:35]have been about four years apart
[4:34:37]from each other. You could tell me four years of four
[4:34:39]months I don't remember. So it sounds
[4:34:41]like at that point there would have
[4:34:43]been at least two conversations
[4:34:45]with Mr. Epstein about the broader
[4:34:47]Victoria's secret issue.
[4:34:49]In 2004
[4:34:51]a woman named Elizabeth
[4:34:53]Ty had a similar experience.
[4:34:55]She was invited to Mr. Epstein's New
[4:34:57]York home under the impression that he would be
[4:34:59]able to get her a job as a Victoria's
[4:35:01]secret model. Mr. Epstein
[4:35:03]apparently, allegedly
[4:35:05]undressed and handed her a vibrator.
[4:35:07]Ms. Ty threw the vibrator
[4:35:09]at his head and ran out of
[4:35:11]the room. Were you made aware of this
[4:35:13]allegation at the time?
[4:35:15]I never heard this story before.
[4:35:17]In 2005
[4:35:24]the New York Post ran an article describing
[4:35:26]a Romanian model
[4:35:28]who allegedly
[4:35:30]land a gig at Wexner's
[4:35:32]Victoria's secret brand thanks
[4:35:34]to Mr. Epstein. Did you
[4:35:36]have any knowledge about models
[4:35:38]who actually acquired
[4:35:40]jobs at Victoria's secret
[4:35:42]directly or indirectly through Mr.
[4:35:44]Epstein?
[4:35:46]No
[4:35:48]but they
[4:35:50]didn't
[4:35:52]interview or pick models.
[4:35:54]That wasn't what I did and no one in the
[4:35:56]business did.
[4:35:58]But just to phrase it clearly
[4:36:00]to your knowledge, did Victoria's secret
[4:36:02]ever hire or contract with
[4:36:04]a model at the recommendation of
[4:36:06]Jeffrey Epstein?
[4:36:08]No, I can't imagine
[4:36:10]they did.
[4:36:12]I wouldn't know if they did but
[4:36:14]the way that we
[4:36:16]handled our marketing
[4:36:18]it couldn't have happened.
[4:36:20]I think I would have
[4:36:22]known because it just wasn't the practice.
[4:36:24]Could I ask
[4:36:26]one follow-up question with respect to
[4:36:28]that second conversation and
[4:36:30]the young woman named Alicia Arden.
[4:36:32]I know they were a few years apart but
[4:36:34]if you recall, was there any
[4:36:36]part of you that doubted whether Mr.
[4:36:38]Epstein had been truthful in his
[4:36:40]denial with you the first time?
[4:36:42]At the time I don't think I
[4:36:50]connected them.
[4:36:52]You can't
[4:36:56]imagine how busy I was.
[4:36:58]I was engaged, I was married, I'm running
[4:37:00]20 businesses.
[4:37:02]I never made the connection.
[4:37:04]And as far as
[4:37:06]you recall, those are the only
[4:37:08]two times that you were alerted
[4:37:10]to Mr. Epstein holding himself out
[4:37:12]as affiliated with Victoria's
[4:37:14]secret. Those stories, yeah.
[4:37:17]It's been reported that following Mr.
[4:37:19]Epstein's arrest in 2019,
[4:37:21]the limited company L Brands
[4:37:23]retained, two different law firms
[4:37:25]were retained to investigate Epstein's
[4:37:27]affiliation with the company.
[4:37:29]We're not aware of those reports
[4:37:31]ever having been made public. To your
[4:37:33]knowledge, were those investigations
[4:37:35]completed? When was it?
[4:37:37]This would be after the arrest, so in 2019
[4:37:39]and 2020.
[4:37:41]I'm not aware that
[4:37:45]the board
[4:37:47]investigated Jeffrey. And I think
[4:37:49]the first law firm investigation
[4:37:51]was for the board, broadly speaking,
[4:37:53]and then some individual board members
[4:37:55]engaged a law firm to
[4:37:57]perform a second investigation.
[4:37:59]But it sounds like you have no knowledge of
[4:38:01]either investigation.
[4:38:03]I found out about two weeks
[4:38:05]ago from one of our ex
[4:38:07]board members that he
[4:38:09]had high parole to investigate Jeffrey
[4:38:11]and I never knew it.
[4:38:14]Could you elaborate on that just
[4:38:16]a moment? In other words, a board member
[4:38:18]described what exactly?
[4:38:20]Two weeks ago,
[4:38:22]he was
[4:38:26]worried about Jeffrey
[4:38:28]and he
[4:38:30]asked Jules Kroll to investigate
[4:38:32]him. Is Jules Kroll
[4:38:34]an investigator?
[4:38:36]White collar criminal.
[4:38:38]He was a Justice Department FBI
[4:38:40]kind of a guy who started his own
[4:38:42]I think it's the largest
[4:38:44]international and private investigation
[4:38:46]firm in the world.
[4:38:48]So he said
[4:38:52]so what happened?
[4:38:54]And he said
[4:38:56]he didn't think Jeffrey was a good
[4:38:58]guy. And he said
[4:39:00]what else? He said that's all he would say. He said
[4:39:02]just not a good guy. And he said
[4:39:04]he asked him for specifics.
[4:39:06]And Jules said I don't have any specifics. He's
[4:39:08]just not a good guy, whatever that
[4:39:10]meant. Do you recall
[4:39:12]approximately what time frame
[4:39:14]the Kroll review was undertaken?
[4:39:16]Or how was it described to you?
[4:39:18]Well the way it was described to me
[4:39:22]is the board
[4:39:24]member asked
[4:39:26]Jules Kroll. He didn't tell me
[4:39:28]it was a board thing.
[4:39:30]And
[4:39:32]so it must have been
[4:39:34]I don't know
[4:39:36]about 19 or 20 because I
[4:39:38]know when I retired, I know
[4:39:40]when I, I think I know
[4:39:42]when COVID was and all those things
[4:39:44]that happened. But
[4:39:46]I had no knowledge of
[4:39:48]it. I was kind of frankly, I wasn't
[4:39:50]it made no difference to me,
[4:39:52]but I was kind of surprised that
[4:39:54]somebody on the board would investigate
[4:39:56]somebody and not tell me
[4:39:58]or as the
[4:40:00]founder, principal,
[4:40:02]whatever, they didn't
[4:40:04]which is probably a good thing.
[4:40:06]So for the
[4:40:10]two law firm investigations I described
[4:40:12]and this separate Kroll
[4:40:14]inquiry, it sounds like you
[4:40:16]had no awareness of those
[4:40:18]when they occurred.
[4:40:20]Nothing. I would like
[4:40:27]to introduce
[4:40:33]minority
[4:40:35]exhibit J.
[4:40:37]So
[4:41:05]as you can see, this is an email
[4:41:07]from June of 2008
[4:41:09]right around the time that Epstein
[4:41:11]pled guilty to soliciting
[4:41:13]a minor for prostitution.
[4:41:15]And you said to him, quote
[4:41:17]Abigail told me the result.
[4:41:19]All I can say is I feel sorry
[4:41:21]you violated your own number one
[4:41:23]rule. Always be careful.
[4:41:25]And Epstein replied,
[4:41:27]no excuse.
[4:41:29]So clearly either you knew
[4:41:31]or Epstein had said to you that his number
[4:41:33]one rule was to be careful.
[4:41:35]What in your recollection
[4:41:37]was he so careful about?
[4:41:41]About being
[4:41:43]about being honest
[4:41:45]and stealing from me
[4:41:47]us,
[4:41:49]these criminal, terrible, horrible
[4:41:51]things that he did.
[4:41:53]And I don't know what prompted me
[4:41:55]because when
[4:41:57]I saw this, I think I was just giving him
[4:41:59]the finger.
[4:42:01]It's just something
[4:42:03]in the news, something. Maybe
[4:42:05]it was the fact that Abigail told me and
[4:42:07]I was cooking on it
[4:42:09]and I just
[4:42:11]like
[4:42:15]you sold yourself as a careful,
[4:42:17]honest fiduciary
[4:42:19]and you completely
[4:42:21]robbed us, did all these
[4:42:23]terrible things.
[4:42:25]It sounds like
[4:42:27]you, at least at the time
[4:42:29]understood that Mr. Epstein
[4:42:31]it sounds like Mr. Epstein would say that his number
[4:42:33]one rule was to be careful.
[4:42:35]Is that correct? Correct.
[4:42:37]Okay. What do you recall
[4:42:39]that being in the context of
[4:42:41]when Mr. Epstein would say that?
[4:42:43]Why was that his number one rule?
[4:42:47]I'll phrase it that way.
[4:42:49]Again, he alleged himself
[4:42:51]to be a fiduciary
[4:42:53]and I'm always careful about
[4:42:55]my clients. I don't
[4:42:57]do risky investments. I don't do
[4:42:59]they're not looking for
[4:43:01]I wasn't looking for cleverness. I was looking for
[4:43:03]accuracy, conservative
[4:43:05]just run things really
[4:43:07]smoothly and Jeffrey would say don't worry.
[4:43:09]I'm always very careful.
[4:43:11]And that might have meant
[4:43:13]to be not abusive
[4:43:15]to my admin
[4:43:17]or
[4:43:19]be prompt and accurate with tax returns.
[4:43:21]He's just careful because
[4:43:23]that's what you would expect.
[4:43:25]If my personal
[4:43:27]attorney would have said don't worry, I'm always
[4:43:29]careful on your account
[4:43:31]that would ring
[4:43:33]comfortably for
[4:43:35]me and
[4:43:37]complete program.
[4:43:42]And you touched on it, but in terms
[4:43:44]of how, what you can
[4:43:46]recall about how you felt at the time
[4:43:48]the crimes
[4:43:50]even the crime that he pled to was not
[4:43:52]insignificant. It involved a minor.
[4:43:54]That
[4:43:56]do you recall?
[4:43:58]That would seem not to necessarily be the product
[4:44:00]of simply not being careful.
[4:44:02]So do you recall whether you felt
[4:44:04]anger, shock or
[4:44:06]simply how could you have been
[4:44:08]so careless?
[4:44:14]How I felt probably
[4:44:17]anger
[4:44:19]that a person in a trust position could be
[4:44:21]so
[4:44:23]mistrusted, so
[4:44:25]crooked, so bad.
[4:44:27]As far as you can recall,
[4:44:31]when was the last time you spoke with Mr.
[4:44:33]Epstein?
[4:44:35]Well it was probably sometime before I
[4:44:37]gave him the finger. So
[4:44:39]it probably was in 07 or 08.
[4:44:41]Sometimes when he got in trouble
[4:44:43]in my mind he died.
[4:44:45]Well definitely at this point
[4:44:47]you two were in communication
[4:44:49]so that's the middle of 2008.
[4:44:51]You asked when he spoke to
[4:44:53]Sure, I'll clarify.
[4:44:55]Any form of electronic or
[4:44:57]verbal communication?
[4:44:59]I wouldn't remember that I did
[4:45:01]this. What I remember is
[4:45:03]when I found out how bad his
[4:45:05]sexual behavior was and he was
[4:45:07]stealing from us dead.
[4:45:09]If you recall,
[4:45:13]I think you had said that he initially
[4:45:15]framed the investigation to you
[4:45:17]as involving a massage
[4:45:19]and an overzealous police chief.
[4:45:21]At least that was what your
[4:45:23]counsels represented to DOJ.
[4:45:25]Do you recall that?
[4:45:27]I don't
[4:45:31]recall it.
[4:45:33]I think that's
[4:45:35]I think, I don't know
[4:45:37]that he told Abigail that.
[4:45:39]And she told me.
[4:45:41]Not what she told you.
[4:45:43]I don't know.
[4:45:45]How I know I don't know.
[4:45:47]Do you recall when you first
[4:45:49]became aware of his crimes
[4:45:51]involving minors?
[4:45:59]There is evidence that Mr. Epstein
[4:46:01]tried to get in touch with you
[4:46:03]in 2010
[4:46:05]and 2011.
[4:46:07]We don't know whether that continued
[4:46:09]later. Do you have any recollection
[4:46:11]of having any form of contact
[4:46:13]with him after 2008?
[4:46:17]Nothing.
[4:46:19]I'm positive that I had no
[4:46:21]communication
[4:46:23]of any kind.
[4:46:25]I keep repeating
[4:46:27]from my point of view, he died.
[4:46:29]I didn't
[4:46:31]want to even think about it.
[4:46:33]Yeah.
[4:46:38]Starting to wrap up,
[4:46:40]are there other individuals
[4:46:42]from Mr. Epstein's
[4:46:44]orbit at the time that you think we
[4:46:46]should talk to who might have an
[4:46:48]understanding of Mr. Epstein's
[4:46:50]crimes? What I'm thinking
[4:47:06]is that he
[4:47:08]referenced several people
[4:47:10]that I never met.
[4:47:14]Do I think they might have information?
[4:47:16]Possibly.
[4:47:19]But I don't know whether he made it up
[4:47:21]or he really did it.
[4:47:23]Do you recall some examples of people he would
[4:47:25]reference?
[4:47:27]Like he'd say,
[4:47:29]I was in Aspen last week.
[4:47:31]I'd say, oh, what were you doing in Aspen?
[4:47:33]And he said
[4:47:35]the family that owns
[4:47:41]Fidelity in Massachusetts,
[4:47:43]Johnson.
[4:47:45]I worked for Abigail Johnson
[4:47:47]and I was there talking to her
[4:47:49]about their family situation.
[4:47:51]He could have been making it
[4:47:55]up, but at the time, I said, geez,
[4:47:57]he works for the Johnson family. They're pretty
[4:47:59]sophisticated.
[4:48:01]He would talk about
[4:48:03]the founders of Google,
[4:48:05]that they were friends and he'd visit them.
[4:48:07]He would talk about
[4:48:09]you got to come out
[4:48:11]to San Francisco. You should
[4:48:13]meet
[4:48:15]the Amazon guy.
[4:48:17]Bezos.
[4:48:19]He said, no, I'm not too busy and I'm
[4:48:21]interested and I don't do what he does.
[4:48:23]And he said, but he's really a smart guy.
[4:48:25]You should meet him. I said,
[4:48:27]if I'm ever in San Francisco, I'll come up. I'm too
[4:48:29]busy.
[4:48:31]I'm trying to think if there's
[4:48:33]any others.
[4:48:35]The Google guys.
[4:48:39]And I never met them.
[4:48:41]I never met Abigail Johnson.
[4:48:43]But I know the name.
[4:48:45]That's all I can recall.
[4:48:58]But there were so many names
[4:49:00]dropped.
[4:49:02]And I'm not,
[4:49:04]I don't know,
[4:49:06]I don't know if he was much interested in
[4:49:08]celebrities, political
[4:49:10]celebrities or
[4:49:12]whatever.
[4:49:14]He was just like, I know so-and-so
[4:49:16]or I know so-and-so.
[4:49:18]I don't
[4:49:25]want to mislead you and
[4:49:27]get a woman I don't know in trouble like
[4:49:29]Abigail Johnson.
[4:49:31]But up until the fact that I
[4:49:33]believed that he was a crook,
[4:49:35]I believed that he knew all these people.
[4:49:37]Do you recall whether he ever
[4:49:39]described anybody as his
[4:49:41]closest personal friends?
[4:49:43]Do you have an understanding of who his close
[4:49:45]friends would be?
[4:49:57]No, he would
[4:49:59]talk about friends that he had.
[4:50:01]He would say
[4:50:06]he told me how friendly he
[4:50:08]was with Ava's husband.
[4:50:10]And I was like, that's kind of funny
[4:50:12]that you're friends with your ex
[4:50:14]fiancee girlfriend's husband.
[4:50:22]It was stuff like that.
[4:50:24]Did I believe that
[4:50:26]he knew Clinton? No, I didn't believe it.
[4:50:28]But sometimes people
[4:50:30]say that. They knew five people in
[4:50:32]five places.
[4:50:34]Do you have
[4:50:36]any reflections as we close this
[4:50:38]conversation, whether it's on your relationship
[4:50:40]with Mr. Epstein
[4:50:42]or the pain and suffering that he and
[4:50:44]his accomplices inflicted on countless
[4:50:46]victims and survivors largely
[4:50:48]with your resources?
[4:50:50]Any reflections of any kind on the entire
[4:50:52]topic? Objection assumes the fact not
[4:50:54]in evidence.
[4:51:01]I believe he had a lot of resources beside
[4:51:03]mine.
[4:51:05]I think the only thing I
[4:51:07]said earlier was that
[4:51:09]if you really understand
[4:51:15]I think he had in hindsight
[4:51:17]multiple personalities,
[4:51:19]incredibly
[4:51:21]smart, which I
[4:51:23]didn't really see.
[4:51:25]You can bullshit Nobel
[4:51:27]laureates about physics and university
[4:51:29]professors and physicians and all
[4:51:31]the people that I've read about.
[4:51:35]If it was a movie, no one would believe it.
[4:51:39]What I read about him
[4:51:41]and the connections
[4:51:43]is so, and I think the perspective
[4:51:45]to understand it
[4:51:47]would be
[4:51:51]to understand
[4:51:53]how intelligent
[4:51:56]he was
[4:51:58]as a criminal
[4:52:00]and all the things that he did.
[4:52:04]I mean, I have
[4:52:06]trouble imagining how we could just do all
[4:52:08]the shit that he did, forget about work.
[4:52:10]In a 48-hour day
[4:52:12]because it was always
[4:52:14]so busy with my stuff
[4:52:16]and then you find out all these relationships
[4:52:18]it's just
[4:52:20]mind boggling.
[4:52:22]And some of it, even today
[4:52:24]I can't
[4:52:26]believe that it's so,
[4:52:28]but some of the stuff I believe
[4:52:30]because I read about it.
[4:52:32]I mean, stuff I
[4:52:34]read yesterday.
[4:52:36]I can't fucking, pardon me, I can't believe
[4:52:38]this.
[4:52:40]And I think to understand
[4:52:42]the criminal activities,
[4:52:44]all the stuff,
[4:52:46]it's like
[4:52:48]I hope you guys are really good.
[4:52:50]As I said earlier,
[4:52:52]I hope
[4:52:54]probably the dismay of
[4:52:56]my advisors to give you
[4:52:58]an accurate picture of how I am
[4:53:00]and how he
[4:53:02]was, how I perceived him.
[4:53:04]And
[4:53:06]I mean, diabolical
[4:53:08]isn't a big enough word.
[4:53:10]And I think I said earlier,
[4:53:12]Bernie Madoff is a boy scout compared
[4:53:14]to Jeffrey.
[4:53:16]I mean, if I just believe
[4:53:18]what I read in the press about people that he
[4:53:20]contacted,
[4:53:22]university presidents,
[4:53:24]Gergen, my friend,
[4:53:26]I mean, it's just crazy.
[4:53:28]He was
[4:53:30]beyond
[4:53:32]perfect or good
[4:53:34]doing all the shit that he did.
[4:53:36]It's just,
[4:53:38]I think it's
[4:53:40]the rumor and innuendo that goes around.
[4:53:42]It makes me very mad because I think I'm a
[4:53:44]very straight arrow and a
[4:53:46]very responsible person.
[4:53:50]I don't want to give you a speech
[4:53:54]of my virtue, but I'm comfortable in my
[4:53:56]old skin.
[4:53:58]And I look up and say,
[4:54:00]it's so preposterous to
[4:54:02]me what he got away with
[4:54:04]so long with so many people
[4:54:06]that I can't imagine how a mind could
[4:54:08]do that and be robbing banks.
[4:54:10]It's
[4:54:12]crazy.
[4:54:14]Thank you.
[4:54:16]And then one last question.
[4:54:18]I think your counsel is represented to
[4:54:20]DOJ that your assets
[4:54:22]accounted for virtually all of Mr.
[4:54:24]Epstein's wealth. Sounds like
[4:54:26]you don't agree with that?
[4:54:28]I wouldn't know it.
[4:54:30]I don't,
[4:54:32]I really don't know what his wealth is,
[4:54:34]but you know,
[4:54:36]island house, all that
[4:54:38]lifestyle, buying people's gifts.
[4:54:42]It would seem to
[4:54:44]me that having
[4:54:46]a good sense of how much money now
[4:54:48]he probably stole from us
[4:54:50]or more than that that we don't even know
[4:54:52]about yet because it was disguised,
[4:54:54]I think it's
[4:54:56]a vast,
[4:54:58]if you said it,
[4:55:00]to do all the things he did.
[4:55:02]And now I know he was,
[4:55:04]if you were a bank robber, bank robbers
[4:55:06]don't rob one bank.
[4:55:08]That was just,
[4:55:10]there's more there
[4:55:12]and I can understand
[4:55:14]what people like myself
[4:55:16]who were robbed
[4:55:18]don't want to be mentioned because
[4:55:20]they don't want to talk about it, they
[4:55:22]don't want to, you know,
[4:55:24]appear naive
[4:55:26]or dumb.
[4:55:28]I mean, when I look in the mirror, I know
[4:55:30]I see an honest person, but
[4:55:32]in this I was completely
[4:55:34]blind.
[4:55:36]Thank you. You can go off the record.