p. 1COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. INTERVIEW OF: TED WAITT Thursday, April 30, 2026 Washington, D.C. The interview in the above matter was held in room 2247, commencing at 10:01 a.m. Present: Representatives Comer, Walkinshaw, Subramanyam, Mace, and Khanna. Appearances: For the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM: DANIEL ASHWORTH, GENERAL COUNSEL BRITTANY BRIGNAC, SENIOR COUNSEL HANNAH CATHEY, PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER JESSICA COLLINS, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR JACK EMMER, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR INVESTIGATIONS EMILY FEYERABEND, COUNSEL RYAN GIACHETTI, CHIEF COUNSEL BILLY GRANT, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL FOR INVESTIGATIONS WILL HARNICE, PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER PETER SPECTRE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR OVERSIGHT ELLISON TOLAN, COUNSEL , MINORITY DEPUTY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY RESEARCH ASSISTANT , MINORITY LEGAL INTERN , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL , MINORITY FELLOW , MINORITY SENIOR ADVISOR MINORITY CHIEF COUNSEL For TED WAITT: ASHLEY CALLEN, ESQ. JON SKLADANY, ESQ. ANDREW PLAGUE, ESQ. Jenner & Block
p. 4Ms. Cathey.This is a transcribed interview of Mr. Theodore Waitt, conducted by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform under the authority granted to it pursuant to House Rule X. Accordingly, House Rule X grants the committee broad jurisdiction for the committee to conduct investigations of any matter at any time. This interview was requested by Chairman James Comer as part of the committee's investigation into the circumstances in the subsequent investigations into the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, the operation of sex trafficking rings, and ways for the Federal Government to effectively combat them, the ways in which Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell sought to curry favor and exercise influence to protect their illegal activities and potential violations of Ethics rules related to elected officials. Could the witness please state his name and spell his last name for the record.
p. 4Mr. Waitt.Ted Waitt, W-a-i-t-t.
p. 4Ms. Cathey.Thank you. I want to thank Mr. Waitt for appearing here today. My name is Hannah Cathey. I'm a professional staff member for Chairman James Comer. Under the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform's rules, you are allowed to have counsel present to advise you during this interview. Do you have counsel representing you in a personal capacity present with you today?
p. 4Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 4Ms. Cathey.Will counsel please identify themselves for the record.
p. 4Ms. Callen.Ashley Callen.
p. 4Mr. Skladany.Jon Skladany.
p. 4Mr. Plague.Andrew Plague.
p. 4Ms. Cathey.For the record, starting with the majority staff, can the additional staff members please introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation.
p. 5Mr. Spectre.Peter Spectre, director of Oversight, Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Grant.Billy Grant, deputy chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Emmer.Jack Emmer, chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Giachetti.Ryan Giachetti, chief counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Ashworth.Dan Ashworth, general counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Ms. Brignac.Brittany Brignac, senior counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Ms. Tolan.Ellison Tolan, counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Ms. Feyerabend.Emily Feyerabend, counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Harnice.Will Harnice, professional staff member, Chairman Comer.
p. 5Ms. Vinyard.Ashlee Vinyard, deputy staff director for Chairman Comer. , chief counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. . , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. . , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. . , deputy staff director, Ranking Member Garcia. . , research assistant, Ranking Member Garcia. , fellow, Ranking Member Garcia. . , legal intern, Ranking Member Garcia. . , senior advisor, Ranking Member Garcia.
p. 5Ms. Cathey.Thank you all. Mr. Waitt, before we begin, I'd like to go over the ground rules for this interview. The questioning will proceed in rounds. The majority will ask questions for up to an hour, and the minority will have an opportunity to ask questions for up to an hour if they choose. To the extent that Members have questions for the witness, they will be propounded during their side's respective rounds. The clock will stop if you need to confer with counsel, your counsel is speaking, and when Members or staff are speaking during the opposing side's rounds of questions. We will alternate back and forth until there are no more questions. Do you understand?
p. 6Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 6Ms. Cathey.There is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say to make a written record of the interview. For the record to be clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you finishes each question before you begin your answer, and the staff will wait until you finish your response before proceeding to the next question. Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this interview, please speak clearly, concisely, and slowly. Also, the court reporter cannot record nonverbal answers such as nodding or shaking your head, so it's important that you answer each question will an audible, verbal answer. Exhibits may be entered into the record. Majority exhibits will be identified numerically, and the minority exhibits will be identified alphabetically. Do you understand?
p. 6Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 6Ms. Cathey.We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and truthful manner possible, so we will take our time. If you have any questions or do not fully understand the question, please let us know, and we'll attempt to clarify, add context to, or rephrase our questions. If we ask about specific conversations or events in the past, and you're unable to recall the exact words or details, you should testify to the substance of those conversations or events to the best of your recollection. If you recall only a part of a conversation or event, you should give us your best recollection of those events or parts of conversations that you do recall. Do you understand?
p. 7Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 7Ms. Cathey.Although you are here voluntarily and you will not be sworn in, you are required by law, pursuant to Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 1001, to answer questions from Congress truthfully. This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in this interview. Do you understand?
p. 7Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 7Ms. Cathey.If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you would be subject to criminal prosecution. Do you understand?
p. 7Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 7Ms. Cathey.This includes both knowingly providing false testimony, but also stating that you do not recall or remember something when, in fact, you do. Do you understand?
p. 7Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 7Ms. Cathey.Furthermore, you cannot tell half-truths or exclude information necessary to make statements accurate. You're required to provide all information that would make your response truthful.
p. 7Adeliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement. Do you understand?
p. 7Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 7Ms. Cathey.Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's interview?
p. 7Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 7Ms. Cathey.Please note that if you wish to assert a privilege over any statement today, that assertion must comply with the rules of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. Pursuant to that, Committee Rule 16(c)1 states, For the chair to consider assertions of privilege over testimony or statements, witnesses, or entities must clearly state the specific privilege being asserted and the reason for the assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or appearance. Do you understand?
p. 8Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 8Ms. Cathey.Ordinarily, we take a 5-minute break at the end of each hour of questioning, but if you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know and we'll be happy to accommodate. However, to the extent that there is a pending question, we would ask that you finish answering the question before we take the break. Do you understand?
p. 8Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 8Ms. Cathey.Do you have any other questions before we begin?
p. 8Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 8Mr. Skladany.Mr. Waitt has an opening statement that he'd like to give -- if you're ready.
p. 8Ms. Cathey.All right.
p. 8Mr. Waitt.Good morning, members of the committee and staff. My name is Ted Waitt. I was born and raised in Sioux City, Iowa, the son of a fourth-generation cattleman. While I did not follow my family into the cattle business, my own career began on my family's ranch. In 1985, I cofounded the personal computer company Gateway in the empty, upper floor of a farmhouse on my father's ranch. Twenty years later, I retired from Gateway, and since then, I've been fortunate to focus my energy and my resources on philanthropy and the causes nearest to my heart. Chief among those are violence prevention and ocean conservation. In 2005, my sister and I founded the Waitt Institute for Violence Prevention, building on the work the Foundation had been doing since 1993. The Institute is focused on combating violence against women, preventing bullying, and breaking the cycles of violence that exist in our homes, schools, and communities. At its core, our work is about disrupting the social norms that accept violence as a part of life. That's why I believe your current inquiry into Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell is so important. For too long, Jeffrey Epstein's crimes were unpunished and were swept under the rug as part of a culture that accepted the most unacceptable behavior from rich and powerful people. I want to acknowledge the victims who were silenced and ignored and denied justice for too long. I am hopeful that this inquiry will lead not only to greater accountability and justice for victims, but also to a broader public understanding of the conditions that expose young women to violence and exploitation across the country and around the world. It is in that spirit that I am here today voluntarily to answer your questions. Before I do so, I would like to outline some key facts about my relationship with Ms. Maxwell and my limited interactions with Mr. Epstein. I first met both Ms. Maxwell and Mr. Epstein in November 2003 at a dinner in Hong Kong. I was traveling in Asia and received a last-minute invitation to join a large group of people at a restaurant. I exchanged contact information with Ms. Maxwell, and we began communicating more regularly over the next several months. I do not remember having any conversation with Mr. Epstein at that dinner beyond a brief introduction. In 2004, my friendship with Ms. Maxwell developed into a romantic relationship that ultimately lasted until September 2010. This was a period of immense personal transition in my life. To put this period, mid-2004, into perspective, I was preparing to finally retire from Gateway after returning to the CEO role to save the company I had founded. I was separating from my wife and the mother of my children, and I was still grieving the unexpected loss of my father in August 2003. I can say unequivocally that if I knew then what I know now about Ms. Maxwell, I never would've befriended her or allowed her to be around my four children, three of whom are girls and who, at that point, ranged in age from 8 to 14. I never would've spent 6 years in a romantic relationship with her. But when I look back at that period today in response to your questions, I can only speak to what I knew and what I saw at that time. Throughout our relationship, I lived in San Diego, Ms. Maxwell lived in New York. As such, we split our time between our respective homes and traveled together but also spent frequent stretches of time apart. I understand that she was employed by Mr. Epstein as a property manager of sorts, but I simply did not have visibility into the details. And I avoided Mr. Epstein, both because I found him off-putting, but mostly because he was my girlfriend's ex-boyfriend, not someone I was eager to spend time with. Over the course of my 6-year relationship with Ms. Maxwell, I would estimate that I interacted with Mr. Epstein less than five times, and each of those were very brief and unintentional. I've never been inside any of his homes, flown on his airplane, or been to his island, period. Last time I spoke to Ms. Maxwell substantively was in September 2010 when I ended our relationship, and the last time I saw her was a bit later when we unexpectedly ran into each other at an ocean conference. I share all this with you today because I understand this committee's work demands candor, and I want to do my part. I will answer your questions to the best of my recollection, and I hope my testimony is helpful.
p. 11Ms. Cathey.Thank you, Mr. Waitt. Time reads 10:12, and the majority's time will begin now. EXAMINATION
p. 11QThank you again for appearing voluntarily. We appreciate you being here today and your testimony and your willing to be truthful with us today, and I just want to start briefly with some preliminary background. You did just jump into your background a little bit, but starting off simply, where did you go to undergraduate school?
p. 11AI went to undergraduate school briefly at the University of Colorado and then the University of Iowa.
p. 11QAnd what degrees did you receive there?
p. 11AI did not receive a degree.
p. 11QAnd then you already jumped into your professional career, but is there anything that you would like to add? Briefly walk us through the starting of your company and your foundation.
p. 11AI left the University of Iowa in November of 1984. I went to work in a computer store in Des Moines, Iowa, for roughly 9 months, and then in September of 1985, I moved back to Sioux City to start Gateway with my friend, Mike Hammond.
p. 11QYou mentioned that you first met Ms. Maxwell at the dinner in Hong Kong with the Clintons present. Is that correct?
p. 11AYes.
p. 11QYes. And that was in 2003, correct?
p. 11AYes.
p. 12QCan you describe a little bit more about what those circumstances were?
p. 12ADid you say -- excuse me -- did you say with the Clintons present or --
p. 12QWere the Clintons present at this dinner?
p. 12AAt dinner, only Bill Clinton.
p. 12QOnly President Clinton. Thank you. And this was in 2003?
p. 12AYes, November of 2003.
p. 12QAre there any details that were left out of your initial statement that you would like to add surrounding the circumstances of that event? Who invited you to that event, for example?
p. 12AI was invited to the event by Doug Band.
p. 12QAnd were you close with Doug Band?
p. 12AI knew Doug. I wouldn't say we're --
p. 12QDid President Clinton know you'd be attending?
p. 12AI wouldn't have been privy to that information. I assume Doug would've told him, but I don't know that for sure.
p. 12QAnd had never met Ms. Maxwell prior to this dinner?
p. 12ANo, I had not.
p. 12Mr. Spectre.What was the purpose of the event?
p. 12Mr. Waitt.President Clinton was traveling with a large delegation around Asia, and it was just a dinner.
p. 12Mr. Spectre.Was it a fundraiser?
p. 12Mr. Waitt.It was not a fundraiser. It was a typical Clinton dinner, a lot of people there.
p. 12QDid you interact with President Clinton during the dinner?
p. 12AYes. I was seated next to him.
p. 13QWhat kind of conversations were y'all having?
p. 13AI don't recall any specific conversations. It was, you know, just a social dinner.
p. 13QWho introduced you to Ms. Maxwell at that dinner?
p. 13AI don't recall exactly.
p. 13QDo you recall the first conversation you had with her?
p. 13AYes. It was later on in that, shortly before I left the dinner, I believe.
p. 13QDo you recall who else was at the table with you and President Clinton?
p. 13AThere was a number of people. There was a very, very large group. There was quite a few people. It was a very typical Clinton affair.
p. 13QBut neither Maxwell nor Epstein were at the table?
p. 13ANo, they were both at the table.
p. 13QOh, they were?
p. 13AYes. Yeah, I mentioned that in my --
p. 13QOkay.
p. 13A-- in my opening statement. Sorry.
p. 13Ms. Callen.Yeah.
p. 13Mr. Spectre.Understood. Thank you.
p. 13QAnd to clarify, that was also the first time you had met Mr. Epstein --
p. 13AYes.
p. 13Q-- at that dinner? Do you recall the first conversation you had with Mr. Epstein?
p. 13AI don't really recall having a direct conversation with him.
p. 13QDo you recall who introduced you to Mr. Epstein?
p. 14AI don't recall. I think I was introduced when I walked in. I walked in late. The dinner was already kind of in progress. I was -- so I don't recall exactly who introduced me. I think I was introduced to them, so.
p. 14Ms. Callen.And just to clarify, Mr. Waitt did not travel with the group. He sort of met the group there.
p. 14Mr. Waitt.Yeah.
p. 14Ms. Cathey.Understood, thank you.
p. 14QFollowing this dinner, did you get any kind of contact information from Ms. Maxwell, or did that happen later on?
p. 14AYes, I got her contact information at that dinner.
p. 14QAnd who asked who on the first date? How was the relationship initiated?
p. 14AI don't recall specifically. At some point we had a dinner in New York.
p. 14QDo you remember when that was?
p. 14AI believe that was in December.
p. 14QDo you know the year?
p. 14AThat was December of 2003.
p. 14Q2003. Broadly speaking, taking a step back, how would you characterize your relationship with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 14AShe was my girlfriend -- starting in 2004.
p. 14QIn 2004?
p. 14AYes.
p. 14QYou don't feel like your relationship began in 2003 then?
p. 14AI met her in 2003, but it became more serious in 2004.
p. 15QDid the nature of your relationship change over the years?
p. 15ANot really. There were a few breaks a couple times, but it was -- I wouldn't say it changed significantly.
p. 15QWhat were the reasons for the breaks?
p. 15AFor the break-up?
p. 15QYeah.
p. 15AIt was -- it was time. I knew I was never going to marry her, and it was just one of those things. I was getting pressure from her friends of -- it was just time. It had run its course.
p. 15QThat sounds like you were talking about in 2010 when you ended it.
p. 15AYes.
p. 15QBut if you had breaks in between during the years that you dated, what were the reason for those?
p. 15AThe primary reason was, I was going through a divorce. It was a very emotional time. I was quitting my job. I had four kids that were my number 1 priority. I had custody of them every other week, and that was my biggest priority was to spend time with my kids.
p. 15QSo nothing to do with suspicion surrounding --
p. 15ANo, no.
p. 15Q-- Maxwell's activities?
p. 15ANo.
p. 15QWas Ms. Maxwell single when you met her?
p. 15AYes.
p. 15QAnd was she single when you went on that first date in 2003?
p. 15AI believe so.
p. 16QDid you or Ms. Maxwell ever present yourself as a couple to those around you prior to 2003?
p. 16ANo. [Waitt Majority Exhibit No. 1. was marked for identification.]
p. 16QI'd like to introduce now -- and it will be passed out in a minute -- what will be marked as majority exhibit 1, the transcript from the direct examination of a woman who we will refer to as Jane Doe. And that was -- she previously worked as a legal assistant for J. Epstein & Company, and then later she was executive assistant to Ms. Maxwell for 6 years. The transcript is marked on the bottom corner of the pages, EFT number ending in 6615, and we'll be looking at page 85 of that transcript, which will be marked at the top of the page in the blue numbers at the top, will be the page numbers. It should actually be the second page in this packet behind that cover page. There will be "85" at the top of, it should say.
p. 16AOh, 85.
p. 16QAnd we'll be looking at lines 7 through 13, and y'all can take a moment to look at that, and we'll pause the clock, and you can let us know when you're ready to move forward.
p. 16Mr. Skladany.I'm sorry. You said page 85?
p. 16Ms. Cathey.It should be at the top, labeled in blue ink, page 85.
p. 16Mr. Waitt.I'm not seeing that.
p. 16Ms. Cathey.Page 85 of 200 and -- oh, okay.
p. 16Ms. Callen.What line?
p. 16Mr. Skladany.Oh, you found it.
p. 17Mr. Waitt.Oh, my name's here, so this is page 85. It's just not labeled in blue.
p. 17Ms. Cathey.I apologize.
p. 17Mr. Spectre.It may have been --
p. 17Ms. Cathey.I think this was printed with more pages than is necessarily. So it is page 85.
p. 17Mr. Skladany.I think they found it, yeah. I'm sorry.
p. 17Ms. Cathey.I'm sorry about that.
p. 17Mr. Skladany.I'm the problem.
p. 17Ms. Cathey.And we're looking at lines 7 through 13, and y'all can take a look at that and let us know when you're ready to move on.
p. 17Mr. Waitt.I'm ready.
p. 17QSo Ms. Doe claims in this testimony that you and Ms. Maxwell began seeing each other as a couple in 2001 or 2002, which is right before she stopped working for Ms. Maxwell. Do you have any reason to know why Ms. Doe is accurate in this timeline? She seems to claim that you knew each other and were dating 2001 or 2002.
p. 17AI do not.
p. 17QSo you have no reason to suspect that anyone would've thought the two of you were a couple before that?
p. 17ACould you clarify? I did not meet Ms. Maxwell until November 2003.
p. 17QUnderstood. Ms. Maxwell also testified in her DOJ testimony that you met in 2003, but she said that she couldn't quite remember. So is there any reason that you could surmise of why her assistant would think that you two had known each other or were seeing each other or were associated prior to 2003?
p. 17AI do not know.
p. 18QHow long were you in a romantic relationship with Ms. Maxwell, for the clarity of the record?
p. 18AFrom early 2004 through September 2010.
p. 18QSeptember. And you mentioned this a little bit in your opening statement, but how frequently did you see each other through the course of the relationship?
p. 18AIt was primarily every other -- every other week. It wasn't consistent every other week, but mostly.
p. 18QAnd you said you lived far apart from each other?
p. 18AYes.
p. 18QDid you ever share a residence with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 18ANo. I did spend a lot of time at her residence in New York, and she spent time later in our relationship, after she got to know my children, at my residence in La Jolla.
p. 18QWhat was the address of her residence in New York that you said you spent time at?
p. 18A116 East 65th Street.
p. 18Ms. Callen.Are we finished with this?
p. 18Ms. Cathey.Yes. You can put that aside.
p. 18QDid Ms. Maxwell own this residence?
p. 18AI do not know.
p. 18QDid anyone --
p. 18AShe told me she did.
p. 18QDid anyone else ever stay at that residence?
p. 18AShe had a -- some staff that lived there.
p. 18QDo you recall who these staff were?
p. 19AYes.
p. 19Ms. Callen.Can we go off the record for just a moment?
p. 19Mr. Spectre.We can go off the record.
p. 19Ms. Cathey.We can go off the record. [Discussion off the record.]
p. 19Ms. Cathey.We'll go back on the record.
p. 19QDid anyone else ever stay in the residence that Ms. Maxwell owned in New York?
p. 19AShe had a staff couple who lived in the basement with their son.
p. 19QAnd you mentioned that other parts of the time they were staying in your residence. Where was that located?
p. 19AIn -- she was staying there?
p. 19QYes, correct.
p. 19AYes, that would've -- that wasn't until later in our relationship, and that would've been in La Jolla, California.
p. 19QCan you estimate the years that she started to stay at your residence with you?
p. 19AProbably not till -- I'm guessing, 2007 maybe, '06, '07.
p. 19QDid Ms. Maxwell have a relationship with anyone else in your family?
p. 19Ms. Callen.Can we go off the record?
p. 19Mr. Spectre.We can go off the record.
p. 19Ms. Cathey.We can go off the record. [Discussion off the record.]
p. 19Ms. Cathey.We'll go back on the record.
p. 19Mr. Waitt.Okay.
p. 19Ms. Callen.Wait, hang on, hang on --
p. 20Mr. Waitt.Of course.
p. 20Ms. Callen.-- two seconds.
p. 20Mr. Waitt.I apologize.
p. 20Ms. Cathey.We'll go off the record. [Discussion off the record.]
p. 20Ms. Cathey.We'll go back on the record.
p. 20Ms. Cathey.Did Ms. Maxwell have a relationship with anyone else in your family?
p. 20Mr. Waitt.Yes, she had a close relationship with my four children, and she met virtually everyone in my immediate family.
p. 20Ms. Cathey.Did Ms. Maxwell stay in contact with your children after the relationship ended?
p. 20Mr. Waitt.Not that I know of. I do believe my daughter Emily saw her in an airport once.
p. 20Mr. Spectre.Did anyone else in your family stay in touch with Ms. Maxwell after your relationship ended?
p. 20Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 20Ms. Callen.I think he answered that.
p. 20Mr. Waitt.Not that I know.
p. 20QWe're going to switch gears a little bit, and we're going to turn to Mr. Epstein. You talked about how you met Mr. Epstein at the dinner. What was your first impression of Mr. Epstein?
p. 20AI found Mr. Epstein somewhat arrogant. I don't really recall. Like I said in my opening statement, he was off-putting somewhat. I didn't really pay significant attention to it that much.
p. 20QDid you know anything about him prior to meeting him?
p. 21ANo.
p. 21Mr. Grant.And you said you thought he was off-putting. What made you think that he was off-putting?
p. 21Mr. Waitt.It was just -- well, he was introduced to me as, they were flying on his plane, the delegation, the group, on a tour through Asia. It just -- I think the way he carried himself and a few comments. It was a group. I don't remember having a one-on-one conversation with him. It was just kind of a large group there. You know, the table is probably this size.
p. 21Mr. Grant.And would you say it was roughly the same feeling as to why you thought he was arrogant as well?
p. 21Ms. Callen.Do you want to clarify that question a bit?
p. 21Mr. Grant.Yes. So you said he was off-putting and arrogant. You just described what made him seem off-putting. Would that same description fit for why you thought he was arrogant as well?
p. 21Mr. Waitt.Yeah, just kind of the way he carried himself, maybe.
p. 21QDid Mr. Epstein have a reputation amongst the other people that were there that you had heard about?
p. 21ANo.
p. 21QWas Mr. Epstein aware of your romantic relationship with Ms. Maxwell while you were dating her?
p. 21AYes.
p. 21QWhen did Mr. Epstein become aware of your relationship?
p. 21AI do not know.
p. 21QDo you know how he became aware of it?
p. 22AI don't know for sure.
p. 22Mr. Spectre.How do you know he was aware of the relationship then?
p. 22Mr. Waitt.I did meet with him at one point in Ms. Maxwell's residence early in our relationship.
p. 22Ms. Cathey.Can you describe --
p. 22Mr. Waitt.At his request.
p. 22Ms. Cathey.Thank you. Can you describe more about the circumstances of that meeting and how that conversation went?
p. 22Mr. Waitt.Ms. Maxwell was hosting a dinner event. We were getting ready, and then she announced that Jeffrey wanted to meet me and would be there shortly. And he kind of appeared. It was quite odd, I felt, and uncomfortable since he was her ex-boyfriend.
p. 22Ms. Cathey.Did she give you any information about him in preparation for meeting him?
p. 22Mr. Waitt.Not -- not really.
p. 22QSo you knew that he was her ex-boyfriend. So was that from conversation that you had with Ms. Maxwell --
p. 22AYes.
p. 22Q-- or with someone else?
p. 22AYes.
p. 22QWith Ms. Maxwell?
p. 22AYes.
p. 22QWhat did she tell you about him?
p. 22AShe told me that he was a, like, a brilliant investor, money manager.
p. 22QSo she only told you positive things about her ex-boyfriend?
p. 23AYes, and that they ended their relationship, I think it was, on her 40th birthday.
p. 23QYou mentioned this briefly earlier, but how often did you see or interact with Mr. Epstein through the course of your relationship with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 23AThere was only two other times after that meeting at the 65th Street residence, and those were both literally running into him, like, on the street.
p. 23QThese were brief conversations then?
p. 23AVery brief.
p. 23QDo you happen to know what you were talking about with him?
p. 23ANo, I do not recall.
p. 23QWas he particularly interested in your business or anything else?
p. 23AThe meeting at 65th Street, he asked a lot about what I was investing in and those -- that type of thing.
p. 23QDid you get the impression that he was after information about your company specifically?
p. 23AI -- it was quite odd. I couldn't really figure it out frankly.
p. 23QSo, no, you were just unclear on why he was asking or what he was asking about?
p. 23AYeah. I got more of the sense he was feeling me out.
p. 23QIn retrospect, do you have any idea what that might've been about?
p. 23ANo.
p. 23Ms. Cathey.Did Ms. Maxwell ever express concerns that Mr. Epstein would have a negative reaction to the two of you dating?
p. 23Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 23Ms. Cathey.Did the nature of your relationship with Mr. Epstein change at any point while you were dating Ms. Maxwell?
p. 24Mr. Waitt.No, I never really had a relationship with Mr. Epstein.
p. 24Mr. Spectre.Did you ever communicate with Mr. Epstein over the phone or email or anything --
p. 24Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 24Mr. Spectre.-- besides the in-person interactions you described?
p. 24Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 24Ms. Cathey.Did you --
p. 24Mr. Waitt.Not that I know of. Sorry.
p. 24QCould you please go into a little bit more detail about Ms. Maxwell's occupation?
p. 24ASure. And I'll try to speak up for those in the back. So she -- I can only go based on what she told me. So she told me she was -- after the romantic relationship with Mr. Epstein ended, you know, prior to that, she had managed his properties and his staff and, you know, acted like, kind of, a wife would. She then transitioned to an employee status as an estate manager. After we began dating, she minimized those activities and was moving out of that -- out of that role. And she was always busy investing in other things, small businesses. She was very entrepreneurial. And, you know, she claims she paid for her residence with some internet investment.
p. 24QCouple things to follow-up on there, but first, so she was still employed by Mr. Epstein while you were dating. Can you clarify the timeframe of that? When did she stop working for Epstein or -- excuse me. Let me rephrase. Did she ever stop working for Mr. Epstein while you were together?
p. 24AI don't know that for sure.
p. 25QBut you said she cut back her time working for him?
p. 25AThat's what she told me.
p. 25QWell, you didn't know that for sure?
p. 25AI didn't know that for sure.
p. 25QBecause you did live in different cities and --
p. 25A[No verbal response.]
p. 25QDo you know how often she was going into the office?
p. 25AI don't know.
p. 25QDo you know how often she was communicating with Mr. Epstein on a daily basis?
p. 25AI don't know.
p. 25QDid you ever visit Ms. Maxwell at the office where she worked for Mr. Epstein?
p. 25ANo, not that I can recall.
p. 25QDid she ever talk to you about Mr. Epstein in the context of being her employer?
p. 25ANot in that context.
p. 25QShe never complained about work?
p. 25ANo. Not that I can recall.
p. 25QShe didn't complain about any aspect of her job, even things that maybe were unrelated to Mr. Epstein?
p. 25AShe didn't go into a lot of details about it.
p. 25Mr. Spectre.You didn't have questions for her given that she was working -- you were dating someone that was working for her ex-boyfriend? You didn't have any questions about that?
p. 25Mr. Waitt.I was under the impression that she moved on from that. She talked a lot about investment ideas that she had and other activities, but very little about -- I don't recall any conversations about any day-to-day activities with Mr. Epstein's affairs.
p. 25Ms. Cathey.You were her boyfriend for 7 years. So in your opinion, the things that you observed, did Mr. Epstein ever manipulate Ms. Maxwell into continuing working for him?
p. 26Ms. Callen.If you have an opinion.
p. 26Mr. Waitt.Yeah, you're asking me to give an opinion.
p. 26Ms. Cathey.I am. As a long-term boyfriend and what you observed about her.
p. 26Mr. Waitt.I could sum it up to say, he seemed like there was a presence, was always there.
p. 26Ms. Cathey.Do you feel like that was a consequence of the fact that they used to date?
p. 26Mr. Waitt.I don't know.
p. 26Mr. Spectre.Did it seem like Mr. Epstein knew something about Ms. Maxwell that she was afraid about?
p. 26Mr. Waitt.I never got that impression.
p. 26QDid Mr. Epstein abuse Ms. Maxwell?
p. 26AAgain, I don't know. I never I never would've witnessed anything directly.
p. 26QDid Mr. Epstein ever ask her, coerce her, or force her to have sex with other people?
p. 26AAgain, I don't -- I don't know.
p. 26QShe never brought up anything about that, anything about their previous relationship that ever made her feel uncomfortable or unsafe?
p. 26AI mean --
p. 26Ms. Callen.Do you --
p. 26Mr. Waitt.Yeah. Can I --
p. 26Ms. Callen.-- want to chat?
p. 26Mr. Waitt.Yeah.
p. 26Ms. Cathey.We'll go off the record. [Discussion off the record.]
p. 26Ms. Cathey.We'll go back on the record.
p. 27QDid Ms. Maxwell, in the course of dating her and getting close to her, did she ever mention that anything happened in her relationship with Mr. Epstein that made her feel uncomfortable or unsafe?
p. 27ANot that I can recall.
p. 27QDid she talk about anything ever occurring that she regrets?
p. 27AAgain, nothing -- nothing comes to mind.
p. 27QWas your relationship with Ms. Maxwell monogamous?
p. 27AI was under the impression it was.
p. 27QAnd what is Ms. Maxwell's sexual orientation?
p. 27AShe's --
p. 27Ms. Callen.Want to go off the record? Let's go off the record.
p. 27Ms. Cathey.We'll go off the record. [Discussion off the record.]
p. 27Ms. Cathey.We'll go back on the record.
p. 27Mr. Waitt.Okay.
p. 27Ms. Cathey.What was Ms. Maxwell's sexual orientation?
p. 27Mr. Waitt.Heterosexual.
p. 27Mr. Spectre.Do you have any reason to believe that she had any sexual encounters with females?
p. 27Mr. Waitt.I -- no.
p. 27QDuring your relationship with Ms. Maxwell, did you have any reason to believe that her romantic relationship with Mr. Epstein was continuing while you were dating her?
p. 28ANo.
p. 28QI'd like to enter, as majority exhibit 2, an email dated with the subject line "Hey." It will be passed out right now. This is from Ghislaine Maxwell to Ted Waitt. The email is marked as EFTA number ending in 5814. [Waitt Majority Exhibit No. 2. was marked for identification.]
p. 28QAnd we'll wait while they get passed out, and you can take a second to review and then let us know when you're ready to resume. Do you recall receiving this email from Ms. Maxwell in 2004?
p. 28AI do not.
p. 28QHave you ever seen this email?
p. 28AOnly in preparation for this testimony.
p. 28QAnd we understand "JE" in the email to mean Jeffrey Epstein. Did you also understand "JE" to be Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 28AI would assume so.
p. 28QWould you please explain in general what Ms. Maxwell is saying in this email with the subject line "Hey" at the top of the page.
p. 28AI assume she's talking about how she's going to define her relationship with Mr. Epstein with me in her life.
p. 28QAnd to clarify, for the sake of the record, when Ms. Maxwell is referring to, quote, "our relationship" in the email, is she referring to her relationship with you?
p. 28AI -- I don't know. I assume, reading that, it was talking about her relationship with Mr. Epstein -- her work relationship with Mr. Epstein. But maybe it is our relationship. I can't -- it's not clear.
p. 29Ms. Callen.Yeah, it's not clear.
p. 29Ms. Cathey.Understood.
p. 29Mr. Skladany.That's a message she wrote?
p. 29Mr. Waitt.It's a message she wrote that you're asking about, yeah. So I don't know what she was --
p. 29Ms. Cathey.Thank you.
p. 29Mr. Waitt.-- whether the "our" -- I don't know whether the "our" means Epstein or me.
p. 29QThank you. To the best of your knowledge, what was your reaction to this email when you received it? This was sent to you by Ghislaine.
p. 29AAgain, I don't -- I don't recall.
p. 29QDid you know generally that Ms. Maxwell was discussing her relationship with you with Mr. Epstein?
p. 29AYes.
p. 29QIn the email Ms. Maxwell says essentially that Mr. Epstein is reviewing the logistics of your relationship and their relationship. Is that an accurate characterization?
p. 29Ms. Callen.I don't know that that's clear.
p. 29Mr. Waitt.Yeah.
p. 29Ms. Cathey.Understood. In the email, though, she is saying that he is reviewing the aspects of our relationship.
p. 29Mr. Skladany.Where does it say that?
p. 29Ms. Cathey.It's in -- it's in the second line before it ends, before "without impeding any plans." He's reviewed all the ways for us to remain close without impeding any plans or fun that we may have.
p. 30Mr. Skladany.It sounds like she's reviewing the ways for her and Epstein to remain close. That's how I'm reading it.
p. 30QYou have no reason to believe that she's talking about her relationship with you and logistics of how that will work, with Mr. Epstein being involved?
p. 30AYeah, I think it was -- I'm reading it as two separate things. You know, I was reading it as her work relationship with Mr. Epstein and me being in her life.
p. 30QWe can step back and make it more general though. Based on this email and what we're seeing here, why did Ms. Maxwell need to be discussing her relationship either with Mr. Epstein or with you and how those two would work together?
p. 30AI don't know. Agree, that is a bit odd.
p. 30QDo you think Ms. Maxwell was seeking Mr. Epstein's approval of your relationship with her?
p. 30AI think in a way, yes.
p. 30QDo you feel like that could have had a negative impact on your relationship with her if he had disapproved?
p. 30AI do not know.
p. 30QDo you think that she would've ended the relationship if he had disapproved?
p. 30AI do not know.
p. 30QHow often did you and Ms. Maxwell discuss Mr. Epstein's opinions of your relationship in general?
p. 30AI -- I don't recall --
p. 30QDid you ever -- I'm sorry.
p. 30A-- the specific times, yeah.
p. 30QDid you ever discuss your relationship with Mr. Epstein and with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 31ANo.
p. 31QDid Ms. Maxwell ever express a desire to stop working for Mr. Epstein?
p. 31ANot that I -- not that I know of. I wanted her to stop working for Mr. Epstein.
p. 31QDid she disagree with you? Were those conversations that you had often?
p. 31AI don't remember a disagreement over that.
p. 31QAnd why did you want her to stop working for him?
p. 31ABecause he was her ex-boyfriend. I was just uncomfortable with it.
p. 31QThere were no specific reasons that you were uncomfortable?
p. 31ANo.
p. 31QJust in general that he was her ex-boyfriend?
p. 31AYes.
p. 31QYou mentioned that the reason you ended the relationship in 2010 was because you knew you were never going to marry her. Is that right?
p. 31AYes.
p. 31QDid that decision to break up, did it have anything to do with her continued employment with Mr. Epstein?
p. 31AI mean, I wasn't sure that she was working for Mr. Epstein at that -- at that point in time, but he was a continuous presence in her life.
p. 31QAnd was that presence part of what made you want to end things?
p. 31AMaybe in a small way, but it wasn't the primary driving factor.
p. 31QWhy were you so sure that you weren't going to marry her?
p. 31AIt's just the relationship had kind of run its course. I just -- I just knew that wasn't right for me.
p. 32QMr. Waitt, I'd like to pivot now to your connection to the Clinton family. When did you first meet President Clinton?
p. 32AIn the late '90s, 1998 or 1999, in Dublin, Ireland, at a Gateway event.
p. 32QCan you describe a little bit more the circumstances? Who introduced you to President Clinton?
p. 32AI was, like, met him, himself. He was pulled up to our factory in a limo, and he got out by himself, and I greeted him.
p. 32QYou said this was at an event.
p. 32AYes.
p. 32QWho else was present at the event?
p. 32AThe prime minister, Taoiseach of Ireland, and around 2,500 other people. The ambassadors were signing a digital treaty between Ireland and the United States.
p. 32QWhat did you discuss with President Clinton that day?
p. 32AIt was all business. I walked him through our operation, and then we discussed the logistics of the event, signing the treaty. And then we went live on CNN.com, and we all gave speeches. And then I rushed out to beat him out of the -- beat his airplane out.
p. 32QWhen did you first meet Secretary Clinton?
p. 32AIn, I believe it was -- it was later than that, after he'd left office, in the early 2000s.
p. 32QCan you describe the circumstances surrounding your first meeting with Secretary Clinton?
p. 32AThe first time I recall meeting Secretary Clinton was at a dinner -- a small, very private dinner in New York.
p. 32QIn New York. Who else was present?
p. 33AIt was President and Secretary Clinton.
p. 33QDo you do want to --
p. 33Ms. Callen.We can go off the record if you want --
p. 33Mr. Waitt.Yeah.
p. 33Ms. Callen.-- specific names.
p. 33Mr. Ashworth.No. She asked a question about it.
p. 33Mr. Waitt.I'll answer --
p. 33Mr. Ashworth.If your client is refusing to answer the question --
p. 33Mr. Waitt.I'll answer the question. It was Ted Danson and Mary Steenburgen.
p. 33Mr. Ashworth.Thank you.
p. 33QThank you. And who introduced you to Secretary Clinton?
p. 33AI don't recall, but we all showed up at dinner.
p. 33QDo you recall any of the initial conversations that you had with her?
p. 33ANo. It was just typical dinner conversations, what was going on, what --
p. 33QCan you briefly describe the nature and the extent of your relationship with President Clinton?
p. 33AI think we were friends, we became friends. I played golf with him quite a few times. I traveled with him on a few trips, would see him and catch up over coffee or lunch when I was in New York or he was on the West Coast, and still do.
p. 33QCan you estimate about how frequently you see President Clinton?
p. 33AOnce or twice a year.
p. 33QDid you ever have a business relationship with President Clinton?
p. 33AI was a donor to the Clinton Library.
p. 34QWere you donor to any other organization or a foundation that was related to President Clinton?
p. 34AI might've done some small grants to the Clinton Foundation, but my -- the big grant I gave was to support his the construction of his library.
p. 34QAnd we'll return a little bit more to the Clinton Foundation later, but for now, can you briefly describe the extent and nature of your relationship with Secretary Clinton?
p. 34AI'm -- yeah, I'm not as close as it -- as it was with the President, but I've met her on several, multiple occasions. She's been to my home. I've been to her home. So I met her on multiple occasions, so.
p. 34QAnd you said you've been to her home. Which home is that?
p. 34AThe home in Chappaqua, as well as her home in D.C., which I don't know if she still has a home here or not.
p. 34QHow many times did you visit the home in Chappaqua?
p. 34AI don't recall exactly. Two or three.
p. 34QDo you recall any specific times that you went? Can you recount who else was with you?
p. 34ATypically it was -- I would've been by myself.
p. 34QThere were no other occasions where --
p. 34AAt the home in Chappaqua?
p. 34QAt the home in Chappaqua, yes.
p. 34AAt the home in Chappaqua, yes, it was -- typically just me, I believe, so.
p. 34QAnd her other home, how often did you visit there?
p. 34AJust -- just once, and that was when she was running for President, and I do believe Ms. Maxwell was with me at that.
p. 34QDo you remember what year that was?
p. 35AThat would've been before the 2008 election, so probably 2007, I'm guessing.
p. 35QAnd was President Clinton there as well?
p. 35ANo.
p. 35QI'm sorry if you said that.
p. 35ANot that I --
p. 35QHe was not?
p. 35A-- not that I recall, no.
p. 35QDo you still communicate with President Clinton?
p. 35AYes.
p. 35QAbout how often?
p. 35ALike I said, once or twice a year.
p. 35QAnd Secretary Clinton, same question.
p. 35AI haven't seen her in a while.
p. 35Mr. Spectre.Have you communicated with either of them this year?
p. 35Mr. Waitt.I don't believe so. Don't believe so.
p. 35Mr. Spectre.So you've not discussed their depositions or your transcribed interview with them?
p. 35Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 35QWhen did you first meet Chelsea Clinton?
p. 35AThat's a good question. I don't remember when I first met Chelsea, but I've known her for quite some time.
p. 35QI believe Secretary Clinton testified to this committee that you met the Clintons in the early '90s. Is that accurate?
p. 36AI don't -- I don't recall meeting them in the early '90s. I don't recall meeting them until the late '90s.
p. 36QThe late '90s?
p. 36AYeah.
p. 36QWould you have met Chelsea Clinton around the late '90s?
p. 36AI don't think I met Chelsea Clinton until the early 2000s.
p. 36QAnd you don't remember the circumstances?
p. 36AI don't remember -- at least that's the way I remember it.
p. 36QDo you remember who introduced you or who connected you to her?
p. 36AI don't remember exactly. Sorry.
p. 36QThat's okay. Can you describe the nature and extent of your relationship with Chelsea Clinton?
p. 36AI think we're close friends.
p. 36QAre you currently close friends?
p. 36AYes.
p. 36QAnd we'll discuss a little bit more about Chelsea Clinton later and the wedding event, but do you still communicate with any other member of the Clinton family?
p. 36AChelsea and her husband Marc.
p. 36QDo you see each other socially very often?
p. 36ANot -- not very often, but a few times a year.
p. 36QAnd how would you characterize your relationship with the Clintons at the time that you met Ms. Maxwell? I know it was at the dinner, but --
p. 36ACould you just -- at the time I met Ms. Maxwell?
p. 36QYes.
p. 37AOh, again, I was -- I was just getting to know them. I was -- I think I'd already made my donation to the library, so it was more as kind of a donor, I think, at that point.
p. 37QDid Ms. Maxwell know the Clintons before she met you?
p. 37AShe was -- yes, not -- I wouldn't say the Clintons. I think she knew President Clinton.
p. 37QJust President Clinton?
p. 37AYeah. She was --
p. 37QShe did not --
p. 37AShe was traveling with President Clinton when I met her.
p. 37QSo to be clear, she did not know Secretary Clinton at the time?
p. 37AI don't know -- I don't believe so. I don't know for sure. I don't believe so.
p. 37Mr. Spectre.So you met Ghislaine Maxwell in 2003. You met Bill Clinton in the late '90s, but each -- Ghislaine Maxwell knew President Clinton before she met you. So had you --
p. 37Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 37Mr. Spectre.So you had a mutual friend in President Clinton. Did you ever have a conversation with President Clinton about Ghislaine Maxwell before he met Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 37Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 37QHow did Ms. Maxwell meet President Clinton?
p. 37AI don't for sure.
p. 37QDo you know how she met Secretary Clinton?
p. 37AI don't know. I assume it would've been through me at some point.
p. 37QAnd you don't remember when that would've been?
p. 37AI don't recall specifically.
p. 37QUnderstood. And then how would you characterize your relationship with the Clintons later on while you and Ms. Maxwell were dating?
p. 38AWe attended a lot of the CGI events. There was a lot of, you know, dinners. It was, you know, cordial, social.
p. 38QDuring his deposition to this committee, President Clinton testified that he felt he was closer to Ms. Maxwell because of you. Why do you think President Clinton would say that you were the reason he was closer to Ms. Maxwell?
p. 38AAgain, I don't -- I don't know. I think it's because I was spending time with them.
p. 38QDid the Clintons spend time with you -- to be more specific, did President Clinton and Secretary Clinton spend time with you and Ms. Maxwell in social settings, outside of events, as a couple?
p. 38AI don't recall any instances of spending time with Ms. Maxwell, Secretary Clinton, and President Clinton --
p. 38QDo you recall --
p. 38A-- without -- you know, alone or separately. I just -- I don't recall that ever happening.
p. 38QWhat about with Chelsea Clinton and her husband, you and Ms. Maxwell?
p. 38AThat's possible.
p. 38QCan you think of any specific instances?
p. 38AI can't. I'm sorry, but --
p. 38QAbout what time in your relationship with Ms. Maxwell were y'all spending time with Chelsea Clinton and her husband?
p. 38ACould --
p. 38QCan you estimate specific years or timeframe of the time that you were spending with Chelsea Clinton and her husband and you and Ms. Maxwell?
p. 38AIt probably, you know, would've been in the time closer to their wedding.
p. 39QUnderstood. Did you introduce either President Clinton or Secretary Clinton to Mr. Epstein?
p. 39ANo.
p. 39QDid Ms. Maxwell introduce Mr. Epstein to President Clinton?
p. 39AI don't know the answer to that.
p. 39QDid she introduce him to Secretary Clinton?
p. 39AI don't know.
p. 39QI'd like to return now specifically to Chelsea Clinton's wedding. How would you characterize Ms. Maxwell's relationship with Chelsea Clinton?
p. 39AFriendly.
p. 39QAnd how often would they interact?
p. 39AI don't -- I don't know.
p. 39QYou attended Chelsea Clinton's wedding in July 2010, correct?
p. 39AYeah.
p. 39QAnd Ghislaine Maxwell attended the wedding with you?
p. 39AYes.
p. 39QAnd she attended the wedding with you in what capacity?
p. 39AShe was my girlfriend at the time.
p. 39QAs your date?
p. 39AYes.
p. 39QDid she also receive an invitation to the wedding, or was she your plus-one?
p. 39AI don't recall how the invitation was addressed.
p. 39QWhat wedding events did you attend on the day of Chelsea Clinton's wedding?
p. 39ACould you -- I don't -- I don't remember.
p. 39QI can give you some examples.
p. 40AYes.
p. 40QFor example, ceremony, reception, any other events including cocktail hour, rehearsal dinner. What wedding events did you attend with Ms. Maxwell on the day of Chelsea Clinton's wedding?
p. 40AI recall attending the ceremony and the events afterwards. I don't recall attending something the night before.
p. 40QAnd was Ms. Maxwell with you throughout both those events?
p. 40ANot continuously, but I believe so.
p. 40QDid Ms. Maxwell or you interact with President Clinton at any of those wedding events?
p. 40AI don't recall any specific interactions. I would assume so, but --
p. 40QDid you and Ms. Maxwell interact with Chelsea Clinton on that wedding day?
p. 40AI would assume so. It was a big -- big wedding, so I don't recall for sure. I think that you would know better than me how many people were there. But it was a large wedding, and, as you know, at weddings, the bride is usually quite busy.
p. 40QHow did other people attending the wedding events react to you bringing Ms. Maxwell to the wedding?
p. 40AShe knew a lot of the people there and --
p. 40QDid anyone seem surprised --
p. 40ANo.
p. 40Q-- that she was there?
p. 40ANo.
p. 40QDid you need to go through any Secret Service protocols or procedures to go to Chelsea Clinton's wedding since her father was President Clinton?
p. 40ANot that I know of.
p. 40QDid Ms. Maxwell have to go through any?
p. 41ANot that I know.
p. 41QIn 2009, the year before Chelsea Clinton's wedding, Ms. Maxwell had been subpoenaed to testify in a civil case against Jeffrey Epstein which was brought by one of his accusers. And then months before Chelsea Clinton's wedding, Ms. Maxwell claims she could not appear for her deposition because she claims she was out of the country for family reasons. Were you aware that Ms. Maxwell was actively avoiding her appearance at a deposition at the time that she attended Chelsea Clinton's wedding with you?
p. 41ANo. Not that I can recall.
p. 41QDid you ever discuss the deposition with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 41AI -- in general terms, I remember it being an issue, but I don't remember it being an issue at that time. I think it was later.
p. 41QCan you elaborate a little bit on what you mean by "an issue"?
p. 41ALater in our relationship, she was quite stressed about a deposition subpoena, whatever. I'm not exactly sure what it was. There were some legal matters going on pertaining to Mr. Epstein that she was upset about.
p. 41Mr. Spectre.Later in your relationship, so when are you talking about?
p. 41Mr. Waitt.It would've, you know, been -- I guess it would've been that time, in 2010, yeah, so.
p. 41Mr. Spectre.So right around the time of the wedding?
p. 41Mr. Waitt.Yeah, yeah.
p. 41Ms. Cathey.Did you ever --
p. 41Mr. Waitt.I don't know if it was before or after. I don't --
p. 41QDid you ever try to assist Ms. Maxwell with the depositions or anything related to her being brought into court?
p. 42ANo.
p. 42QYou didn't pay for attorneys --
p. 42ANo.
p. 42Q-- anywhere? Were you aware that Ms. Maxwell was avoiding the deposition by saying she was out of the country for an extended period of time?
p. 42ANo.
p. 42QDo you know if she ever actually left the country in 2010?
p. 42AI don't know.
p. 42QShe also claimed that her mother was sick. Were you aware of her mother being sick at any point in those 2 years?
p. 42AAt some point I remember her mother, but I don't know if it was -- I don't know if it was that time.
p. 42QDid she --
p. 42AJust don't recall.
p. 42QExcuse me. Did she often visit her family back in England?
p. 42AYes.
p. 42QAbout how often?
p. 42AOnce or twice a year maybe.
p. 42QDid you ever go with her?
p. 42AYes.
p. 42QCan you recount those times?
p. 42AI don't know exactly what the dates were.
p. 42QCan you describe a little bit more about the trips that you took with her to see her family there?
p. 43AI just remember going once to meet her mother.
p. 43QDid you ever discourage her from avoiding the deposition, or did you ever encourage her to go to the deposition?
p. 43AI don't recall that level -- that detail of conversation around that topic.
p. 43QGhislaine Maxwell was arrested on July 2nd, 2020, and charged with, among other things, the recruitment, the grooming, and the abuse of underage girls and other women in the 1990s and the early 2000s. So when did you first learn that Ms. Maxwell had been arrested?
p. 43ASame time everybody else did, on television.
p. 43QWere you surprised when you learned that she'd been arrested?
p. 43AThere had been a lot of press leading up to that, so I don't think at that point I was surprised.
p. 43QWhat was your initial reaction when you first heard about the rumors that she would be -- or had been arrested?
p. 43AIt was quite surreal.
p. 43QApproximately when do you think you were aware that she was a person of interest of some kind by law enforcement? I assume prior to July 2nd, 2020, based on your testimony.
p. 43AI believe that as the press escalated -- I didn't read a lot of it, but it was kind of unavoidable. So it would've been after that Miami Herald article, I think. There was a great article that exposed all of that. So I think that was in 2018 or 2019, so --
p. 43QSo your --
p. 43AAnd then things escalated after that.
p. 43QSo just to be clear, your knowledge of the crimes she was, at that time, alleged to have committed, came from media reports and not from any firsthand knowledge?
p. 44ANo -- yes, correct.
p. 44QIt came from media reports?
p. 44AFrom media.
p. 44QDid you discuss the allegations with Ms. Maxwell at any point?
p. 44ANo.
p. 44QDid you have any contact with Ms. Maxwell in the years the investigation was ongoing?
p. 44ANo.
p. 44QDid you have any contact with her after she was arrested?
p. 44ANo.
p. 44QDid you assist her in any way in the criminal investigation against her?
p. 44ANo. Not that I know of.
p. 44QDid you have any conversation with President Clinton about the crimes -- about the fact that Ms. Maxwell was under suspicion of these crimes?
p. 44ANot that I -- I don't recall a specific discussion with him about it.
p. 44QDo any conversations in general jump out to you that you had with other people that knew Ms. Maxwell during that time?
p. 44ACould you -- could you be more clear?
p. 44QYeah. President Clinton is a notable figure that knew Ghislaine Maxwell. Were there any other notable individuals that knew Ms. Maxwell, that you knew, that you reached out to or talked with about the fact that Ms. Maxwell was under suspicion of these crimes?
p. 44AI don't recall anybody specifically, like a notable person, talking to them. Mr. Spectre. Okay. [10:59 a.m.]
p. 46QI'm asking specifically in this question about the timeframe after you broke up and then leading up to her arrest. Did you have any suspicions about her involvement in any kind of criminal activities?
p. 46ANo.
p. 46QDo you have any suspicions, based on your time dating her, that would have led you to believe the investigation was warranted?
p. 46ANothing that I can really recall. There was things around Mr. Epstein, and she always denied any direct involvement in any of those issues so, you know. There was his 2008 conviction, which we discussed and she denied having any involvement with that.
p. 46QHow many times did you talk about that with her? Let me rephrase: Did you have multiple discussions with Ms. Maxwell where she over and over denied that she was involved?
p. 46AI don't recall having multiple discussions.
p. 46QSo you believed her when she said she wasn't involved?
p. 46AI had no reason not to.
p. 46Ms. Cathey.I think that's a good stopping point. We'll go off the record for this first hour. Thank you. [Recess.] BY :
p. 46QSo we can go back on the record. Good morning, Mr. Waitt. My name is I will be doing most of the question for the minority today. We appreciate you coming in, we appreciate your time. As you know, today's conversation will focus on your relationships with primarily Ghislaine Maxwell, as well as some questions about Jeffrey Epstein. Some of the questions we ask might be a little repetitive but I'm going to do my best to keep that to a bare minimum. So that's what I'll strive for. Just had two quick follow-up questions on content in the previous round; one, with respect to the dinner in Hong Kong where you first met Ms. Maxwell. Just for my clarification, you were not on that trip that President Clinton was on. Is that right?
p. 47ANo, I was not on that trip.
p. 47QWere you already in Hong Kong?
p. 47AYes.
p. 47QBusiness or something like that?
p. 47AI was there on business. I saw in the newspapers that President Clinton was in town.
p. 47QI understand. And, you know, when you arrived at that dinner, as far as you can remember, did you have any knowledge of who Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell were?
p. 47ANo.
p. 47QOne other question was with respect to the meeting you described, kind of the one more substantive meeting with Mr. Epstein, that was a little odd. I just might not have heard it, but was there an approximate date for that meeting?
p. 47AEarly 2004.
p. 47QAnd that meeting, was that at Ms. Maxwell's New York home?
p. 47AYes.
p. 47QWere the three of you the only people present at that meeting?
p. 47AShe was not present at that meeting.
p. 47QOh, just the two of you?
p. 47AJust the two of us, yes.
p. 47QGot it, okay. I think you had said, but is that the only time that you ever had a one on one just the two of you interaction with Mr. Epstein?
p. 47AYes.
p. 48QCould you -- you touched on it in the previous round, but could you try, from 30,000, feet to just describe the general arc of your relationship with Ms. Maxwell? I know when it started, I know when it ended. Did it sort of get gradually more serious before it tapered off? How do you view in summary the relationship?
p. 48AI mean, in summary it was, like I said, it started in 2004, ended in 2010. I'm trying to figure out exactly what you're looking --
p. 48QWell, you know, you talked about at the point of the separation, not having perceived a realistic probability of marriage.
p. 48AYes.
p. 48QWas that always your perception or was there a point halfway through when you thought maybe this is heading for marriage. How did that unfold?
p. 48AYeah, again, from the beginning of the relationship, I was very clear that I was not going to marry her. I was not -- I was going through a divorce. I was not looking to get married any time soon. I had four children, that was my big priority. I would say that the relationship was kind of, I don't want to call it on and off again, because I was with my kids a lot of the time so every other week I had them full-time custody and then she would be off doing her thing, so.
p. 48QAnd when you first met and when you first started dating Ms. Maxwell, let's say your understanding of her relationship with Mr. Epstein, certainly it was that they were no longer romantically connected. Is that correct?
p. 48AYes.
p. 48QAnd you understand that she worked for Mr. Epstein?
p. 48AYes.
p. 48QAnd what was your understanding -- I think you touched on it, but your understanding of what exactly she did for Mr. Epstein when you and she first started dating?
p. 49ASomething -- an estate or a property manager type.
p. 49QHis various physical properties?
p. 49AYes.
p. 49QDid Ms. Maxwell, to the best of your recollection, ever mention massages in the context of her working for Mr. Epstein?
p. 49ANot that I can recall.
p. 49QDid Ms. Maxwell ever mention arranging for Mr. Epstein to meet or hire girls or young women?
p. 49AExcuse me?
p. 49QDid Ms. Maxwell ever mention, in her work for Mr. Epstein, helping him, meaning Mr. Epstein, hire or meet girls or young women in any capacity?
p. 49ANot that -- not that I can recall. In any capacity -- yeah, not that I can recall.
p. 49QDid Ms. Maxwell ever discuss Mr. Epstein's sexual or romantic life in any way?
p. 49AOnly as it related to their past.
p. 49QNot at all as it related to other women. Is that right?
p. 49ANot that I can recall.
p. 49QDid Ms. Maxwell ever express concern that any of Mr. Epstein's activities, any of Mr. Epstein's activities, may have been criminal or ethically problematic?
p. 49ANot that I can -- not that I can recall.
p. 49QI imagine the answer to this is probably yes: Did Ms. Maxwell ever discuss her own past romantic relationship with Mr. Epstein?
p. 49AYes.
p. 49QWhat was the general nature of how she characterized their previous relationship?
p. 49ABoyfriend, girlfriend.
p. 49QNever more serious than that, as far as you remember?
p. 50AI believe it was a serious relationship.
p. 50QDid she ever describe the reason for their breakup?
p. 50AShe described it at one point, it was on her 40th birthday, I think he broke up with her at that point.
p. 50QDid she have a perspective that you can recall as to the reason for the breakup, or what Mr. Epstein said the reason for the breakup was?
p. 50AYeah. I mean, I believe she mentioned, you know, that she was getting too old for him.
p. 50QDo you recall -- and this is going back a little bit, but do you recall whether, from her point of view, if she was hurt by that, unsurprised by that, said that's perfectly in line with what I know about Jeffrey. Do you know anything about her reaction to that?
p. 50AI would be guessing, but I would assume she was hurt by that.
p. 50QNo specific recollection of anything she might have said or how specifically she reacted in conversation with you?
p. 50ANothing I can specifically recall.
p. 50QDid Ms. Maxwell ever express concern that her own actions with respect to Mr. Epstein may have been criminal or ethically problematic?
p. 50ANot that I can recall.
p. 50QDid Ms. Maxwell ever say that she had engaged in sexual activities with Mr. Epstein and other women?
p. 50ANot that I can recall.
p. 50QYou described, I think in general terms, the nature of your relationship with Mr. Epstein over the course of your relationship with Ms. Maxwell and that was not very much. It sounds like we described maybe three interactions that you can recall. Is that ballpark fair?
p. 50AYeah, three or four.
p. 50QAnd one of those was one on one and that's the meeting we previously discussed.
p. 51AYes.
p. 51QWhat do you recall the about the nature of the other two or three?
p. 51AThey were just brief encounters, like, on a street or one was in New York and one I think was in St. Barts.
p. 51QDoes the dinner in Hong Kong, is that being counted as one of these two or three?
p. 51AYes, one of those four. Four that I can recall.
p. 51QOkay. What was the St. Barts interaction?
p. 51AI was just literally walking down the street.
p. 51QIn the town?
p. 51AIn the town.
p. 51QWhat did you generally know or believe, if anything, about Epstein's personal life?
p. 51ANot much.
p. 51QDid you know or hear at all about whether he was dating?
p. 51AThere -- on the two occasions that I ran into him, he had someone who I assumed was his girlfriend with him. It was the same female each time.
p. 51QI'm sorry, the two were St. Barts, and what was the other?
p. 51ANew York.
p. 51QNew York, got it. Can you describe anything you can you can recall about that person?
p. 51AShe looked like a model type, appeared to be in her lower twenties, eastern European, I believe.
p. 51QAnd did Mr. Epstein introduce you to her?
p. 51AI think so. I think -- Ms. Maxwell knew her and knew her name. I don't recall her name.
p. 51QWhat allows you to recall that she was eastern European?
p. 51AI heard her accent, I think so.
p. 52QDid Mr. Epstein ever talk to you about his dating or social life?
p. 52ANo.
p. 52QDid you ever spend time with Epstein or any of his girlfriends or romantic interests, let's say apart from the two interactions that you just described?
p. 52ANo.
p. 52QDid you ever have any concerns about Ms. Maxwell's work for or association with Mr. Epstein, let's say apart from the general issue of him being her ex-boyfriend?
p. 52ANo, that was the primary one. He did seem to have significant influence over her, she did always kind of look up to him and I was not comfortable with that.
p. 52QDid you say she -- it was your perception that she did kind of look up to him. Is that right?
p. 52AYes.
p. 52QIf you can recall whether examples or just general sort of energy, what gave you that perception?
p. 52AComments that she made.
p. 52QYou may not remember in a photographic sense, but could you give me just a general sense of what an example comment might be?
p. 52AHis financial acumen, investing expertise.
p. 52QAnd do you have a perception as to whether that, because she wasn't the only one I think that felt that way about him, did you have a perspective, given your background and professional accomplishments, as to whether that reputation was warranted or not?
p. 52ANo.
p. 52QNo perspective at all?
p. 52AIt always seemed a little suspect to me.
p. 52QWhat would have given you that impression?
p. 53AYou know, the type of financial returns he was supposed to generate were kind of --
p. 53Ms. Callen.Impossible.
p. 53Mr. Waitt.Yeah. I wouldn't say impossible, but unheard of I guess, you know. And then when I looked at his assets, most of them seemed to come from Mr. Wexner and -- BY :
p. 53QYeah, what was your impression of what Mr. Epstein did for a living?
p. 53AThat he managed money for other people for a small list of select clients, that is what was described to me.
p. 53QAnd was it your understanding that Les Wexner was sort of the primary or the main client.
p. 53AAt one point, yes.
p. 53QDid Ms. Maxwell ever talk about Mr. Epstein's relationship with Mr. Wexner?
p. 53AYes.
p. 53QDo you remember the general nature of that, as Ms. Maxwell described it, whether from a personal relationship point of view, business relationship, how did she characterize it?
p. 53AWhen they were dating, I think they spent a lot of time in Ohio with Mr. Wexner and his wife.
p. 53QDid she ever describe anything related to her time in Ohio or her knowledge of Mr. Epstein's time in Ohio that raised any kind of ethical or criminal concerns?
p. 53ANo, not that I can recall. . I think we've had at least one, maybe a couple of members join, if they could identify themselves.
p. 53Mr. Walkinshaw.James Walkinshaw from Virginia's 11th District. Chairman Comer. James Comer, chairman, House Oversight committee, Kentucky. BY :
p. 54QPrior to it becoming public knowledge, did you have any direct or indirect knowledge of the sexual abuse that Jeffrey Epstein was committing against minors and young women?
p. 54ANo.
p. 54QPrior to it becoming public knowledge, did you have any direct or indirect knowledge of the sexual abuse that Ghislaine Maxwell was facilitating and committing against minors and young women?
p. 54ANo.
p. 54QDid you ever engage in sexual activity with someone who was introduced to you by Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 54ANo.
p. 54QI want to get a little bit more specific, and that is for example one plaintiff in 2017 alleged that she was abused by Epstein between October of 2006 and April of 2007 and that somewhere in that date range Ms. Maxwell coerced her into sexual compliance. She alleges that she once tried to escape from Epstein's island after she was verbally abused and threatened by Ms. Maxwell among others. That would be within the range of when you and Ms. Maxwell were dating. So to be very clear, you never had any knowledge of the allegations that I just described?
p. 54ANo, but I find those very upsetting.
p. 54QDid Ms. Maxwell go to Mr. Epstein's island a lot while you were dating?
p. 54ANot that I can recall.
p. 54QCan you recall any instance of Ms. Maxwell going to Mr. Epstein's island while you were dating?
p. 54ANo, I don't recall any instances where she went to the island.
p. 54QIn 2021, in its indictment against Ms. Maxwell, the Department of Justice claimed that Ms. Maxwell, "assisted, facilitated and contributed to Jeffrey Epstein's abuse of minor girls by, among other things, helping Epstein to recruit, groom and ultimately abuse victims known to Maxwell and Epstein to be under the age of 18. The victims were as young as 14 years old when they were groomed and abused by Maxwell and Epstein, both of whom knew that certain victims were, in fact, under the age of 18." So again, for crystal clarity, you had no knowledge of abuse of any kind by Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell during the time that were you in the relationship with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 55AThat’s correct.
p. 55QI think we've had another member join, if they could just identify themselves for the record.
p. 55Mr. Subramanyam.I'm Congressman Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia's 10th District. BY :
p. 55QIf you recall, at what point did you become aware that Mr. Epstein had been arrested for solicitation of prostitution?
p. 55AI don't recall exactly when I became aware of that.
p. 55QIf we just say that that occurred in July of 2006, would you estimate that you learned about it maybe within a couple of weeks of it happening or was this something that not until years later did somebody reveal it to you?
p. 55AIt was probably months, months later. It was when he was serving his sentence.
p. 55QOkay. So that would not have occurred until at least a couple of years later.
p. 55AOkay.
p. 55QSo your best recollection is that for at least that that in between time, between the arrest and the sentence, you were not informed --
p. 55ANo.
p. 55Q-- and were not aware?
p. 55ANo, I was not aware.
p. 55QFor his arrest in mid-2006, let's say, to the best of your memory, what would you recall about Ms. Maxwell's relationship with Epstein at that point? Was she still working for him? Was it beginnings to taper off?
p. 56AI believe her work relationship with him by 2006 would have been minimal from what she had told me.
p. 56QDo you recall roughly at what point you would have become aware that Epstein had pled guilty to solicitation and solicitation of a minor. So that happened in June of 2008. Would you estimate that you learned about that pretty quickly after it happened or was that also a pretty big lag?
p. 56AYeah, it was -- I'm not exactly sure when he was serving the time when he was on that work-release program, but it was when that was happening. That was when I first remember learning about that. And I don't know if I ever knew the specific charges. Ms. Maxwell always downplayed that fairly significantly so --
p. 56QDid you have a recollection of maybe the first time that Ms. Maxwell sort of -- I assume it was Ms. Maxwell who would have been the one to inform you about Mr. Epstein's legal troubles. Is that right?
p. 56AYes.
p. 56QDo you have a recollection of the first time that she would have a broached the topic with you?
p. 56ANo, sorry, I don't.
p. 56QDo you have a recollection of the general nature of how she described Mr. Epstein's troubles? I mean, you mentioned it seemed like she downplayed them. Can you just elaborate on that a little bit?
p. 56AYeah. Again, I don't recall specifically what she would have said, you know, I think she said there was a plea agreement. I don't remember the exact details, but you know, that he got some work-release situation probably because it wasn't that serious kind of -- that's kind of the way she portrayed it.
p. 57QDid she ever describe the possible or definite involvement of minors in Mr. Epstein's legal troubles?
p. 57ANo, not that I can recall.
p. 57QAnd his plea included a charge of solicitation of a minor specifically. Did she -- as far as you remember, did she ever mention that?
p. 57ANot that I can recall.
p. 57QAnd it sounds like you never became aware of that through the newspaper or any kind of public source?
p. 57ANo, I don't recall there being a lot of press around that at that time. Apparently there was some, but I don't remember seeing anything in the press about it.
p. 57QAnd your either personal or business circles, other associations of yours, they weren't such that there would have been kind of a word of mouth, Hey, did you hear what happened to Jeffrey? Nothing like that ever occurred?
p. 57ANo, I don't recall that happening.
p. 57QAnd looking back, is that not surprising to you? In other words, was Mr. Epstein really not somebody that you and your associates would be commenting on?
p. 57AYeah, I didn't spend time with him so it wasn't -- and neither did a lot of the people that I hung out with.
p. 57Mr. Skladany.You lived in California, at that point, right?
p. 57Mr. Waitt.Yeah. BY :
p. 57QI've got some detailed questions about his incarceration. I'll just run through them. Were you aware of the Florida Science Foundation?
p. 57ANo.
p. 57QWere you aware, and if so, what was your knowledge of Mr. Epstein's work-release arrangement?
p. 58AI -- what I was told by Ms. Maxwell was that he was allowed to go to his office during the day and then report back to a facility where he spent the night.
p. 58QDid Ms. Maxwell ever characterize that, like, you know, Jeffrey can't believe he got this amazing deal, anything of that nature?
p. 58AI wouldn't say it was that way. It was more like -- it was, like, Yeah, he had a good deal. I wouldn't say, you know -- it was more like he did it than he got an amazing deal. Like he had arranged it, I think was the way she put it, rather than he got an amazing deal from someone else.
p. 58QJeffrey successfully arranged this great deal for himself?
p. 58AIt was a deal. I wouldn't say it was a great deal, it was a deal, yeah, it seemed a little unusual to me. But again, I wish I would have done more research on it at the time, but I didn't.
p. 58QWas there any tension let's just say at the time for now between -- if Ms. Maxwell was presenting Epstein's charges and his situation as sort of downplaying it, it's not that serious, but also being pretty happy, Jeffrey being pretty happy with the way the deal worked out. Was there any tension in those -- did you ever say to yourself wait a second, you know, is this a serious thing or is it not?
p. 58AWell, I clearly didn't want her affiliating with him and I didn't want to affiliate with him, and I had no affiliation with him myself. So I think I probably would have pushed more in that direction.
p. 58QTo your knowledge, did Ms. Maxwell ever visit Epstein while he was incarcerated or on work release?
p. 58ANot to my knowledge.
p. 58QDid you ever visit Epstein in his offices while he was on work release?
p. 58ANo. . We have another member who joined if they could just identify themselves.
p. 59Ms. Mace.Congresswoman Nancy Mace, South Carolina. BY :
p. 59QDid Ms. Maxwell ever mention Virginia Roberts Giuffre?
p. 59ANo, not that I can recall.
p. 59QMs. Maxwell -- we've touched on the sort of separation of Ms. Maxwell from Mr. Epstein over the course of your relationship with her. We've also touched on your breakup with Ms. Maxwell. Ms. Maxwell told DOJ last year that the reason for your breakup was that in 2009, a lawyer named Scott Rothstein tried to blackmail you by asking for $10 million in exchange for dropping Ms. Maxwell from a series of civil suits. From your recollection, did that happen?
p. 59ANo.
p. 59QIs there any version of that that happened to the best of your recollection? In other words, did you have any interaction with Mr. Rothstein?
p. 59AMr. Rothstein presented a financial proposal to a friend of mine at the time named A.J. Discala (ph). He presented that proposal to an associate of mine, somebody who worked for me. I saw the details of that proposal and thought it was a total scam and just didn't think it was a very worthwhile investment.
p. 59QWhat was the proposal in summary that you recall?
p. 59AIn summary as I recall, it had to do with -- something to do with sexual harassment lawsuits, not sexual assault or sex trafficking or sexual harassment. And they were doing something with the lawsuits to pay off people early and were going to more money later. And they wanted money to do it in the beginning. It just seemed like a terrible idea to me so --
p. 59QAnd was the approach to your associate, was it related to you in way? In other words, as Rothstein asking the middleman to ask you or was it just between Rothstein and the associate?
p. 59AWell, yeah, they were asking me for the money, because I have money. Neither one of them had money and they are both in jail now so --
p. 60QDid the proposal have any connection to Ms. Maxwell?
p. 60AI don't recall it being specific to Ms. Maxwell as well.
p. 60QSo do you have any recollection of Mr. Rothstein communicating anything at all specifically related to Ms. Maxwell, either to you or indirectly to your associate?
p. 60AYeah, I do believe her name came up, but I don't think it was in the context of any of those sexual lawsuits. It was never tied to that, to Epstein's crimes, or a lawsuit involving Epstein's crimes. I believe Epstein was a Palm Beach lawyer so I thought it was more to do with Palm Beach, but I don't believe Epstein's name ever came up.
p. 60QBut with respect to Ms. Maxwell, what's your recollection of the context in which her name came in?
p. 60AI don't recall specifically. Frankly, I reviewed that document in preparation for this that I mentioned that her name came up. But I don't remember in what context it came up. But it wasn't in relation to the lawsuits, at least as I recall so I don't remember how it came up.
p. 60QJust trying to envision it for us, would there be some other context in which a name would come up from Mr. Rothstein other than in relation to the financial proposal he was making?
p. 60AHe might have known her, I don't -- I don't know. He was a fairly prominent figure I think for a time in Palm Beach.
p. 60QIt may have been something as simple as, Hey, I saw Ghislaine at the supermarket last week.
p. 60AI don't know, I don't know.
p. 60QBut sitting here today, is it right that you have no specific recollection of Ms. Maxwell's name having any connection to Mr. Rothstein's financial proposal.
p. 60AAm I supposed to answer that yes or no? I do not --
p. 60QDo you have --
p. 60AI do not recall her name having anything to do with the specific financial proposal that they gave me.
p. 61QThank you. And it's right that you rejected the proposal?
p. 61AYes.
p. 61QDid -- to the best of your recollection, did the proposal have any connection at all to your breakup with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 61ANo.
p. 61QDo you happen to know whether Rothstein ever ended up filing whatever suits he said he was going to file?
p. 61AI don't know.
p. 61QOur understanding is that you made a series of payments to Ms. Maxwell over the years, and we would like to have a better understanding of those payments. So I am going to introduce minority exhibit A. Give me a moment to pass it out. [Waitt Minority Exhibit A. was marked for identification.] BY :
p. 61QThe only entry that has any relevance to you is maybe two-thirds of the way down the page. So this is an account statement, it looks like, from the upper left-hand corner for 116 East 65th Street, LLC, which was Ms. Maxwell's home address at the time. The monthly statement is for May 2008. And part way down the page, the statement appears to show a $30,000 transfer from you to this account. There are similar $30,000 payments on a monthly basis through at least April of 2010. So we estimate it might be around $720,000 in total. Just to start with, do you recall what were these payments for?
p. 61AThese were monthly payments I made for what I felt was my share of her and to help with her expenses of her staff, the house. I had maintained an office in the residence at East 65th Street, I had clothes there, I spent time there. And I think she -- I was just providing financial support because I was using it so I felt it was the right thing to do.
p. 62QHow did that idea first come about? Did you spontaneously suggest it or was it her idea?
p. 62AI don't recall specifically how it came about.
p. 62QAnd was the support meant to be specifically linked to expenses related to this residence?
p. 62AYes. Mostly the staff.
p. 62QHow much staff did she have?
p. 62AThere was two full-time staff, a driver and a housekeeper. I think at one point they were going to leave or something. I can't remember. But that was mostly what it was. And I used the driver myself and I wanted to contribute.
p. 62QWas it your understanding that Ms. Maxwell probably was not able to cover the totality of those expenses on her own?
p. 62AI was never privy to Ms. Maxwell's financial affairs. But I think she appreciated the assistance.
p. 62QIt sounds like you have maybe some memory that the two staffers were threatening to leave at some point. Is that right?
p. 62AYeah, I don't recall the specifics around it, though.
p. 62QDo you recall some connection between them threatening to leave and the beginning of this arrangement?
p. 62AI vaguely recall that. Again, I might be mixing things up, but I think there was something around the staff, I wanted to pay my share. And I think that continued until -- that $30,000 a month continued until we broke up.
p. 62QDo you recall why these payments were made to this LLC, and not just to her personally?
p. 63AI assumed -- I'd be speculating, but I assume this is where she wanted them to go and I assume this went into the property and paid the expenses for the house. It is not atypical for somebody who owns a property to have a title in an LLC and run all the expenses through that.
p. 63QOur understanding is that this LLC was controlled by Darren Indyke who was Mr. Epstein's lawyer. Do you recall being aware of that at the time?
p. 63ANo.
p. 63QDo you recall knowing who Mr. Indyke was or having any interactions with him?
p. 63AI don't recall having any interactions with Mr. -- how do you pronounce --
p. 63QIndyke.
p. 63AI remember hearing the name Darren quite frequently as someone Ms. Maxwell interfaced with.
p. 63QWhat would be the context of why Ms. Maxwell would be interfacing with Darren as she described it?
p. 63AAgain, I don't recall. Mostly just business transactions.
p. 63QWould that have been at the period of time when Ms. Maxwell was still really substantially working for Epstein and not after she started to taper off? Because this is 2008, I think we had said that by this point Ms. Maxwell wasn't really working for Mr. Epstein. Is that right?
p. 63AI didn't believe so. But I think she still had a relationship and used maybe some of the legal services of his office. I don't --
p. 63QCan you elaborate on that a little bit? What was your understanding to which Ms. Maxwell continued to have interactions or business with Mr. Epstein's staff after she stopped working for him?
p. 63Ms. Callen.So I think several times today he's testified his understanding was that she was minimizing her work with Mr. Epstein over time, but he doesn't know the specifics. BY :
p. 64QNo problem, but the specific idea that Ms. Maxwell may have been utilizing, let's say, Mr. Epstein's legal services, I think that's a little bit beyond what I think I at least previously understood. So could you just elaborate on what you remember about that?
p. 64AAgain, I wasn't privy to the specific details of her working relationship with Mr. Epstein or any of his entities. All I do know I remember hearing the name Darren and her talking to him on frequent occasions. I think throughout the relationship I don't know if they were, like, friends or, you know, like they worked together. And she was asking his advice. There was a lot of interaction. You want the details of that interaction? I really don't know.
p. 64QAnd do you recall that interaction sort of staying constant, even as Ms. Maxwell's other work started to wind down for Mr. Epstein?
p. 64AI can't recall the frequency of how it was, but I recall it being somewhat consistent.
p. 64QDo you recall any other folks on Mr. Epstein's staff whose name you sort of heard with maybe a similar degree of frequency, whether that's the accountant as opposed to the lawyer or anybody else from the Epstein team that Ms. Maxwell seemed to interact with a fair amount?
p. 64AThe person I remember her -- she was a pilot and she interacted I think quite a bit with his pilot. But I just assumed that was like pilots talking to pilot that type of thing so --
p. 64QMs. Maxwell wasn't a pilot, though, right?
p. 64AMs. Maxwell was a pilot, a helicopter pilot.
p. 64QI did not know that. Okay. And I understand the natural assumption of Hey, pilot to pilot, but what, if anything, is your recollection of either the extent to which Ms. Maxwell communicated with Mr. Epstein's pilot and if so, what they communicated about?
p. 64AI don't -- I wasn't privy to those conversations.
p. 64QMr. Epstein had a pretty substantially sized staff. Was there anybody else from his world that you recall Ms. Maxwell having a consistent communication with?
p. 64ANobody I can think of.
p. 65QAs far as you know, did these $30,000 payments have any connection to Mr. Epstein or Mr. Epstein's legal troubles around this time?
p. 65ANo.
p. 65QI think that's a fine time to transition to maybe some members that may have questions they would like to ask.
p. 65Mr. Walkinshaw.Thank you, Mr. Waitt. Was your understanding of the relationship between President Trump and Epstein while you and Maxwell were dating? Did you have any understanding of the relationship between Epstein and Trump?
p. 65Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 65Mr. Walkinshaw.What was your understanding of the relationship between Trump and Maxwell at the time you and Ms. Maxwell were dating? Did you ever discuss it?
p. 65Mr. Waitt.Not that I can recall.
p. 65Mr. Walkinshaw.So never throughout your relationship you can't remember her mentioning at all any interactions she might have had with President Trump?
p. 65Mr. Waitt.No, because I mean he wasn't President then so --
p. 65Mr. Walkinshaw.Donald Trump at that time.
p. 65Mr. Waitt.Yeah, I don't remember any discussions.
p. 65Mr. Walkinshaw.And no discussion of her or Epstein's opinion of Donald Trump at the time.
p. 65Mr. Waitt.Not that I can recall.
p. 65Mr. Walkinshaw.I think that's all the questions I have, thank you.
p. 65Mr. Subramanyam.Thank you to answer both my questions, but just to clarify, you were not aware of any of Ms. Maxwell's interactions with young girls while you were dating her. Is that correct?
p. 65Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 65Mr. Subramanyam.And what did she say she was doing with Jeffrey Epstein at the time you were dating her?
p. 66Mr. Waitt.She described her role as estate management, property management.
p. 66Mr. Subramanyam.Did you ever visit any of those properties yourself?
p. 66Mr. Waitt.No, no.
p. 66Mr. Subramanyam.And what did you think estate management meant?
p. 66Mr. Waitt.Typically hiring the housekeepers, the chefs, the drivers, working on decor, maintenance.
p. 66Mr. Subramanyam.And did you ever visit Jeffrey Epstein's island?
p. 66Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 66Mr. Subramanyam.Did you ever fly on his plane?
p. 66Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 66Mr. Subramanyam.Did she ever bring up any details about estate management during the course of the relationship or talk about her work with Jeffrey Epstein with you?
p. 66Mr. Waitt.She never got into the specifics with me.
p. 66Mr. Subramanyam.So you were dating her but she never actually talked about her work with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 66Mr. Waitt.She was -- at least what she told me she was minimizing and ramping out of her, you know, job with Mr. Epstein. She talked a lot about other businesses that she was investing in or entrepreneurial activities that she was doing, but not a lot about -- I don't recall any specific details about what she was doing for Mr. Epstein.
p. 66Mr. Subramanyam.Since you're here, there's rumors out there of some form of extortion. Some people were wondering were you ever told to give $10 million in exchange for information or were you offered $10 million in exchange for withholding information on Ghislaine Maxwell's involvement with Jeffrey Epstein.
p. 66Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 67Mr. Subramanyam.Okay, thank you. That's all I have. . Thank you. She said can I sneak in with some questions. BY :
p. 67QSo I'm going to pick up along the same theme that we were just discussing. I would like to introduce minority Exhibit B. [Waitt Minority Exhibit B. was marked for identification.] BY :
p. 67QOne page again. I'll give you a moment to look it over.
p. 67AOkay.
p. 67QSo this is a similar account statement for October 2008. It appears to be Ms. Maxwell's personal account rather than the LLC we described previously. And there's a payment part way down, looks like on October 23rd that appears to from yourself for just under $3,000. This was the only transfer during this time period that didn't match the 30,000 number. We just wanted to ask whether you recall what this payment was for?
p. 67AI do not.
p. 67QDo you have any recollection of the distinction between at least this payment going to a personal account versus the others going to the LLC?
p. 67ANo.
p. 67QYou can put that one away. I will introduce minority exhibit C. [Waitt Minority Exhibit C. was marked for identification.] BY :
p. 67QHave you had a chance to look it over?
p. 67AYes.
p. 68QGreat. So this is an account statement for Ms. Maxwell's personal account, September 2010. And it looks like on September 24th, there is a transfer from you for around $7.2 million, quite a bit larger than the other payments we looked at. What was this payment for?
p. 68AThis would have been at the end of our relationship.
p. 68QAnd what was the nature or reason for the payment?
p. 68AMs. Maxwell was devastated by our breakup. She, you know -- I just felt it was the right thing to do, not uncommon for people in my situation to do that. It was -- we lived a fairly extravagant life. In hindsight, if I had to do it over again, I wouldn't have done it.
p. 68QWas the payment intended to go toward her living expenses?
p. 68AYes.
p. 68QDid the payment have any connection to her legal troubles of any kind?
p. 68ANo.
p. 68QAnd did the payment have any connection to legal troubles of Mr. Epstein's of any kind?
p. 68ANo.
p. 68QAll right, I will introduce minority exhibit D. [Waitt Minority Exhibit No. D. was marked for identification.] BY :
p. 68QI'll give you a moment to look it over. It's three pages, but all you need to focus on is on the first page. So this is an FBI tip sheet from an anonymous caller in July of 2020. And we can see on the first page towards the bottom, the caller says that the FBI should speak with you specifically and "Maxwell was the one in charge of getting the girls and Waitt was there and knows what was going on." Just to start with, do you have any idea who this caller may have been?
p. 68ANo.
p. 68QDo you have any sense of why the caller would have said this about you?
p. 69ANo.
p. 69QAnd to reiterate, did you have any knowledge of any role Ms. Maxwell may have had in getting girls or young women for sexual activity with Mr. Epstein?
p. 69ANo.
p. 69QI will introduce minority exhibit E. [Waitt Minority Exhibit E. was marked for identification.]
p. 69Mr. Skladany.Just with respect to Exhibit E, did the FBI ever contact you?
p. 69Mr. Waitt.No. BY :
p. 69QI will give you a moment to look that over as well. There's only a little bit the content specifically related to you at the very end of the document, but you're welcome to look the whole thing over.
p. 69Ms. Callen.Yeah, I just want to note for the record that this is an FBI document, not any communication between Mr. Waitt and anyone we've discussed today. . I would have described it that way myself anyway.
p. 69Mr. Skladany.Is there any particular place we should focus our attention? . Yeah, there is just a little bit of -- as I said at the very back that relates to your client, but you're welcome to look the whole thing other if you'd like.
p. 69Mr. Skladany.Thank you. . Of course. BY :
p. 69QSo this is an FBI intake form, summarizing outreach from somebody named Peter Nominkos. And Mr. Nomikos called the FBI's national threat operation center in July of 2020 to report information about Ms. Maxwell. Do you recognize the name Peter Nomikos?
p. 70ANo.
p. 70QHave you ever met or interacted with, as far as you know, somebody by that name?
p. 70ANot that I can recall.
p. 70QSo toward the -- over the course of the document, Mr. Nomikos says -- pardon me, he said that, "towards the end, the owner of Gateway Computer, Ted Waitt, and Jeffrey Epstein were in some sort of relationship beyond friendship at this time and from context the time he is describing is around 2012. Do you have any idea what Mr. Nomikos might have meant by a relationship beyond friendship?
p. 70ANo, I can just assume we both had a relationship with her at some point in the past.
p. 70QAnd I think Mr. Nomikos' claim was that you were in some kind of relationship beyond friendship with --
p. 70Ms. Callen.Epstein. BY :
p. 70QJeffrey Epstein?
p. 70Ms. Callen.Yeah, I think he misunderstood the question.
p. 70Mr. Waitt.Oh.
p. 70Ms. Callen.I think your question is, Did Mr. Waitt and Jeffrey Epstein have a relationship beyond friendship. And the answer to that is no. Not even friendship, to be clear. . You're correct that that's my question and I would have happily clarified that for your client. So the claim I think from Mr. Nomikos was that yourself and Mr. Epstein had some kind of relationship beyond friendship. Do you have any idea why --
p. 70ANo.
p. 70Q-- Mr. Nomikos would have said that?
p. 70ANo.
p. 70Ms. Callen.Do we even know --
p. 71Mr. Waitt.That's not the way I read it, but yeah.
p. 71Ms. Callen.And do we even know that this person is a real person? Because this is just someone that called the FBI. . I don't think I described it as anything more than that.
p. 71Ms. Callen.Okay. BY :
p. 71QHow would you have characterized your relationship with Mr. Epstein in 2012?
p. 71AThat there was no relationship.
p. 71Mr. Skladany.For the sake of thoroughness, did the FBI ever contact you in response to this?
p. 71Mr. Wait.No. . All right. I will introduce minority exhibit F. [Waitt Minority Exhibit F. was marked for identification.] BY :
p. 71QThis is a short document. I will give you just a moment to look it over. So this is an email chain from October of 2004 between yourself and Ms. Maxwell. The subject is WG (Wicked Ghislaine) Ms. Maxwell first says, Forgot to mention what price I exacted for my car and funding of the three 18-year-olds' trip. You replied, do tell, you naughty girl. More importantly, do you recall what this email chain related to?
p. 71ANo.
p. 71QDo you have any recollection of what the funding was that Ms. Maxwell was talking about here?
p. 71ANo.
p. 71QDo you recall having any understanding of who the three 18-year olds were?
p. 72ANo.
p. 72QDo you recall whether or not Ms. Maxwell had a lot of interactions with 18-year olds that you would have been aware of?
p. 72ANo, other than like kid friend -- friend's kid children or something.
p. 72QYeah, so given that context and looking at this email I understand sitting here now, do you have any sense of what she might be relating to with the three 18-year olds' trip?
p. 72ANo, sorry I --
p. 72QI will introduce minority exhibit G. [Waitt Minority Exhibit G. was marked for identification.] BY :
p. 72QSo this is an email chain between yourself and Ms. Maxwell in April of 2004. It looks like the context is describing planning for some kind of trip. If I could just direct you to the top of the second page, so the last four digits at the bottom corner would be 9059. And if you just look at the top of that, that's an email from Ms. Maxwell that reads, "massage is booked for four in the hotel room, not a hotel masseuse." So I will ask in a literal sense, did you ever receive a massage from somebody who was introduced to you by or arranged by Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 72AI assume a therapeutic or a sports massage.
p. 72QDo you have any recollection, in this example, what sort of massage that would be in relation to?
p. 72A-- I don't recall for sure. I think in this email it looks like I was playing in a golf tournament and I always had back trouble, so it could have been, you know, for my back.
p. 72QAnd do you have a recollection of that kind of massage having been arranged by Ms. Maxwell, other than looking at this email, do you have a specific recollection of that having been something that happened more than once or is it just looking at this email you believe that this time that occurred?
p. 73AJust looking at this email. I typically get weekly therapeutic massages.
p. 73QAnd do you have any recollection of this particular massage or who the masseuse was?
p. 73ANo.
p. 73QDo you have any sense either recalling back to then or sitting here now of the phrase, "not a hotel masseuse," what that might mean?
p. 73AI assume there were -- that they were better quality or sports-oriented.
p. 73QDid you understand Ms. Maxwell to have any kind of specific expertise related to massages? Did she ever talk about massages or say, Hey, I know an awful lot of masseuses if you ever want me to arrange one?
p. 73AI remember one time she stretched -- like stretched me and was quite good at that. But it was like, you know, I don't recall her talking about being a massage expert, you know.
p. 73QAnd did you ever engage in sexual activity with someone who gave you a massage and was introduced to you by Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 73AAbsolutely not.
p. 73QI think that is a good time to go off the record. [Discussion off the record.] [12:10 p.m.]
p. 74Ms. Cathey.Go back on the record.
p. 74QThank you for your patience. As always, if anything we say is repetitive, forgive us. It's difficult to hear in here, but we're going to do our best not to repeat questions. But thank you for your patience today. So we want to return to something that we covered in the first hour, and you mentioned a meeting that you estimated took place in 2007 at the home of Secretary Clinton. Do you remember mentioning that?
p. 74AYes.
p. 74QWho all was present at that meeting?
p. 74AI don't recall for sure. Huma Abedin would have been there. It was a very small group.
p. 74QAnd to reiterate what you stated earlier, Secretary Clinton was present, correct?
p. 74AYes.
p. 74QWas President Clinton present?
p. 74ANo.
p. 74QYou were present. And Ms. Maxwell was present?
p. 74AI believe so, yes.
p. 74QAnd what did you discuss at this meeting?
p. 74AIt was -- it was -- discuss her Presidential run, I believe.
p. 74QDo you have any calendar invites, emails, texts, anything that indicates that this meeting was scheduled or took place?
p. 74ANot that I know of, no. I don't think I have my calendar. It doesn't go back that far.
p. 74Ms. Callen.We're happy to check.
p. 75Ms. Cathey.Great. Thank you.
p. 75QAnd you said it was to discuss Secretary Clinton's Presidential run in 2008. Was it a meeting about donations or was it just a political -- was it political strategy or --
p. 75AIt was more political, you know, political strategy. I don't think it was an explicit fundraising amount. There was not a price tag on it or anything like that. It was a small group.
p. 75QAnd she was looking for your input on political strategy or Ghislaine Maxwell's or --
p. 75AIt was more whoever was invited to the group. It wasn't just me. It was -- there was a number of people there. I mean --
p. 75QDo you recall, did Ghislaine Maxwell give her advice about political funding?
p. 75AI don't -- I don't recall. I don't believe so. I don't think so, no.
p. 75Ms. Cathey.And do you recall, were just you invited and then you brought Ghislaine Maxwell or did she receive a separate invitation?
p. 75Mr. Waitt.It probably would have been me; I was invited and I brought her with me.
p. 75Ms. Cathey.Ms. Mace, if you're ready to go forward.
p. 75Ms. Mace.All right. I apologize. I'm probably going to repeat some of the questions you've already been asked. How did you meet Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 75Mr. Waitt.I met Ghislaine Maxwell in 2003 in Hong Kong. 2003.
p. 75Ms. Mace.In Hong Kong?
p. 75Mr Waitt.Yes.
p. 75Ms. Mace.Were the Clintons there?
p. 75Mr. Waitt.Bill Clinton was there.
p. 75Ms. Mace.All right. Was this a dinner?
p. 75Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 76Ms. Mace.And then, how were you invited to the dinner?
p. 76Mr. Waitt.I was invited to the dinner. I happened to be traveling in business in Hong Kong and China. I saw Bill Clinton was in town.
p. 76Ms. Mace.How were you invited to the dinner?
p. 76Mr. Waitt.Doug Band invited me for dinner.
p. 76Ms. Mace.Doug Band invited you?
p. 76Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 76Ms. Mace.Had you been to a dinner with either of the Clintons before that?
p. 76Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 76Ms. Mace.And when was that?
p. 76Mr. Waitt.I don't recall. I'd been to multiple dinners with President Clinton.
p. 76Ms. Mace.Why have you been invited to multiple dinners with President Clinton?
p. 76Mr. Waitt.I was a large donor to the Clinton Library.
p. 76Ms. Mace.How much?
p. 76Mr. Waitt.Ten million.
p. 76Ms. Mace.Okay. But you weren't a political donor?
p. 76Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 76Ms. Mace.Okay.
p. 76Mr. Waitt.Not that I can recall. I made a lot of political donations.
p. 76Ms. Mace.You gave a thousand in '96 to, like, a legal fund, I think, for Clinton-Gore general election.
p. 76Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 76Ms. Mace.But that was it. Did you ever, like, email or text or call or meet with Clinton directly -- either of the Clintons directly? Did you ever, like, email, communicate with them, texts, phone calls directly?
p. 77Mr. Waitt.No. President Clinton doesn't really do email. Most of my communications would have gone through one of his staff members.
p. 77Ms. Mace.It would have gone through Doug Band?
p. 77Mr. Waitt.At that time, Doug Band.
p. 77Ms. Mace.And how many times had you met with Clinton previous to 2003?
p. 77Mr. Waitt.I don't -- I can't give you a specific number, but I would say a few.
p. 77Ms. Mace.A few. What's a few? How do you define a few?
p. 77Mr. Waitt.Four, five, six, seven.
p. 77Ms. Mace.And when was -- when was the daughter Clinton, when was her wedding?
p. 77Mr. Waitt.I believe it was 2010.
p. 77Ms. Mace.2010. And were you -- you were still dating Ghislaine Maxwell at that time?
p. 77Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 77Ms. Mace.And how were you invited to the wedding?
p. 77Mr. Waitt.I don't recall the exact invitation. Ms. Mace . Were you invited to the wedding?
p. 77Mr. Waitt.I was invited to the wedding.
p. 77Ms. Mace.Was Ghislaine Maxwell invited to the wedding?
p. 77Mr. Waitt.I don't -- I don't recall.
p. 77Ms. Mace.Was she there as your guest?
p. 77Mr. Waitt.Yes, I believe so. She came with me. I don't know if the invite -- I don't have a copy of the invite, if it was to us.
p. 77Ms. Mace.Have you ever been to the Clintons' home?
p. 77Mr. Waitt.To the --
p. 78Ms. Mace.Private residence, personal residence?
p. 78Mr. Waitt.In Chappaqua?
p. 78Ms. Mace.Anywhere.
p. 78Mr. Waitt.Yes, I've been to Chappaqua.
p. 78Ms. Mace.Okay. How many times have you been there?
p. 78Mr. Waitt.Two or three.
p. 78Ms. Mace.Was Ghislaine Maxwell there with you?
p. 78Mr. Waitt.I don't recall her being there with me.
p. 78Ms. Mace.Do you know when you were there at their residence, what year?
p. 78Mr. Waitt.It was quite a while ago. I haven't been there in quite some time. It would have been --
p. 78Ms. Mace.So it would have been between 2003 and 2010?
p. 78Mr. Waitt.Probably.
p. 78Ms. Mace.Do you remember why you were there?
p. 78Mr. Waitt.It could have been -- it could have been after -- I think there was one time after 2010.
p. 78Ms. Mace.Do you remember why you were there?
p. 78Mr. Waitt.Just to say hi.
p. 78Ms. Mace.How did you get invited to the house?
p. 78Mr. Waitt.I would -- a lot of times when I was in the area, I would, you know, text his staff and say, I'm in the area. Does the President want to say hi, and vice versa, if he's --
p. 78Ms. Mace.Did Ghislaine Maxwell do the same thing, she would text him if she was in the area?
p. 78Mr. Waitt.I do not know. I don't know.
p. 78Ms. Mace.Were you ever in the area with Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 79Mr. Waitt.She lived in New York, so Chappaqua is quite close. It was difficult for me to be in New York or in upstate New York.
p. 79Ms. Mace.Were you ever in Chappaqua with Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 79Mr. Waitt.I don't recall.
p. 79Ms. Mace.That's convenient.
p. 79Mr. Waitt.I don't -- I wish I could -- I wish I could be more helpful. I don't -- I don't remember being there with Ghislaine Maxwell.
p. 79Ms. Mace.And how many times did you say you've been to the Clinton home?
p. 79Mr. Waitt.Very few. Two.
p. 79Ms. Mace.Okay. You're visiting the President -- former President of the United States home and don't know why you're there or if Ghislaine Maxwell, your girlfriend, was with you?
p. 79Ms. Callen.I don't think he said she was with him. He doesn't recall --
p. 79Mr. Waitt.I don't -- she could have been. She definitely could have been. I'm just not saying -- I recall her -- I can't recall a specific time when she was -- when I was there with her.
p. 79Mr. Spectre.Ms. Mace, if I may just clarify the record for a second. The 2007 meeting that we opened the hour with, that -- was that not at one of the Clinton residences?
p. 79Mr. Waitt.That was at Secretary Clinton's residence in this area, in the Washington, D.C., area.
p. 79Mr. Spectre.So there was one meeting at a Clinton residence where Ghislaine Maxwell was there?
p. 79Mr. Waitt.That one I -- yes. She was -- she was at that one.
p. 79Ms. Mace.You recall that one?
p. 79Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 79Ms. Mace.But not the two other times in Chappaqua?
p. 80Mr. Waitt.I don't recall if she was with me, no. She could have been. I just -- I'm sorry. I'm just trying to be as exact here as I can. I don't --
p. 80Ms. Mace.Let's -- okay. All right. Do you have a scheduler that schedules you?
p. 80Mr. Waitt.I do -- not right now, I don't. Previous to that, I have.
p. 80Ms. Mace.Back in the 2003 to 2010 timeframe, would you have had a scheduler?
p. 80Mr. Waitt.Typically, yes.
p. 80Ms. Mace.Would this document still exist, like your calendar, your meetings, et cetera, who was there?
p. 80Mr. Waitt.I don't believe they do, but I'm happy to check and see if they do.
p. 80Ms. Mace.Would you have -- would you have put your meetings with Clinton on your calendar?
p. 80Mr. Waitt.I don't know.
p. 80Ms. Mace.Okay.
p. 80Mr. Waitt.If it was a formal event, it would have been on my calendar. If it was just a --
p. 80Ms. Mace.So the dinner in Hong Kong or whatever that was would have been on your --
p. 80Mr. Waitt.That was not on my calendar. That was a very impromptu thing.
p. 80Ms. Mace.Very impromptu thing.
p. 80Mr. Waitt.I texted Doug Band myself when I saw the Clintons were in town. And that would have not been done through my scheduler.
p. 80Ms. Mace.And I think this was asked earlier, but I wanted to clarify. You have had a massage that was set up by Ghislaine Maxwell? Have you ever had a massage set up by Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 80Mr. Waitt.I believe so. There was a document that said that, yes.
p. 80Ms. Mace.Okay. Do you know how many times it happened?
p. 80Mr. Waitt.I do not know how many times.
p. 81Ms. Mace.Do you know when this was?
p. 81Mr. Waitt.That document was 2004, I believe.
p. 81Ms. Mace.And do you know how many times it happened?
p. 81Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 81Ms. Mace.Once? Five times? Ten times? A dozen?
p. 81Mr. Waitt.I don't know. I get frequent therapeutic sports massages. I never had a massage of a sexual nature.
p. 81Ms. Mace.Where did you generally receive these massages -- if Ghislaine Maxwell organized a massage for you, where would it have been?
p. 81Mr. Waitt.This one in this -- do you want me to refer to this document or in general? I mean, I don't --
p. 81Ms. Mace.In general.
p. 81Mr. Waitt.In general, I don't recall.
p. 81Ms. Mace.I don't have any documents in front of me.
p. 81Mr. Waitt.I would typically have a normal masseuse that was a certified licensed massage therapist that was highly qualified for sports-types massage.
p. 81Ms. Mace.If you've admitted that Ghislaine Maxwell had organized a massage or some massages for you, where would it have been?
p. 81Mr. Waitt.She does one for me --
p. 81Ms. Callen.The document indicates she may have organized one massage.
p. 81Mr. Waitt.One massage in Florida.
p. 81Ms. Callen.In Florida. So --
p. 81Mr. Waitt.I was not at home.
p. 81Ms. Callen.-- it appears it happened at the hotel where he was staying.
p. 81Ms. Mace.Did you have any reason to suspect this masseuse was then a minor?
p. 82Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 82Ms. Mace.Did they look young?
p. 82Mr. Waitt.No. I don't remember the masseuse, but that would not have happened.
p. 82Ms. Mace.Okay. That's all I have for now.
p. 82QIf I may just follow up on a couple of the documents that were mentioned in the last hour -- introduced in the last hour. I believe it's minority exhibit F, the email with the subject line "WG, (wicked ghislaine)." Just to make sure the record is clear, you, I think, testified that you -- you know, very clearly, you do not know what she was referring to with regard to a trip with three 18-year-olds, it seems. But you replied, "Do tell, you naughty girl." What did you mean by "naughty"?
p. 82AI mean, again, I don't recall the specific message. This is her being kind of funny and a smart -- I don't recall any situation with three 18-year-olds. So -- and I don't remember what it was.
p. 82QAnd my apologies. I know you had a relationship with Ms. Maxwell, so was "naughty" more of a sexual reference or was it a reference to some sort of untoward thing?
p. 82ANo. I think she -- yeah, she's saying she was wicked, doesn't mean she did something -- you know, it's more like clever or, you know --
p. 82QSo you don't think maybe you were referencing her doing something immoral or --
p. 82AI don't read anything sexual in this -- in this note.
p. 82QBut regardless of sexual, otherwise immoral or illegal?
p. 82ANo. I don't -- I don't see that in this, no.
p. 82QAnd you don't recall knowing about any immoral --
p. 82ADefinitely not.
p. 82QAnd then, again, minority exhibit, I believe it's C or D, it is the J.P. Morgan statement that reflects a $7.2 million deposit that was made to Ghislaine Maxwell. I believe you testified that that was, you know, essentially something that you did to ensure that she could continue the lifestyle that she had come to have with you. Is that right?
p. 83AYeah. It was at the end of our relationship. Like I said, she was -- she was devastated. I felt bad.
p. 83QDid she communicate to you that she had financial troubles?
p. 83AI don't recall her communicating financial troubles, but I don't believe she had significant resources.
p. 83QWhy did you think she didn't have the resources to continue her -- because, if I may, was the house that she had in New York, she owned that prior to you dating her. Is that right?
p. 83AShe told me she did.
p. 83QSo why would she need $7.2 million to continue, you know, a lifestyle that she had seemingly had before you dated her?
p. 83AYeah. For the upkeep. I just thought it was the right thing to do.
p. 83QDid you and Ms. Maxwell -- did either of you request or go through with any form of nondisclosure agreement or any other kind of agreement about disclosing information about each other?
p. 83ANo, not that I know of.
p. 83QSo she never asked you to keep anything confidential about your relationship with her?
p. 83ANo. No.
p. 83Ms. Cathey.And you mentioned that she owned the house prior to dating you, and that's what she told you. Did you have any reasons to believe that that was not the case, that someone else owned the house and she stayed there?
p. 83Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 83Mr. Spectre.And I'm sorry, one last slight aside. We were talking about fundraisers and other things having to do with the Clintons, and I just want to be clear. Did you ever give any money to the White House Historical Society or Association while President Clinton was President of the United States?
p. 84Mr. Waitt.Not that I can recall. Not that I know of, no.
p. 84Mr. Spectre.Did you ever attend any functions for the White House Historical Society or Association while President Clinton was President?
p. 84Mr. Waitt.No, not that I -- not that I can recall.
p. 84Ms. Mace.I have a few more questions --
p. 84Ms. Cathey.Go ahead.
p. 84Ms. Mace.-- if you don't mind. We are voting today, apparently, so I'm going to miss my flight.
p. 84Mr. Spectre.Go ahead.
p. 84Ms. Mace.You said earlier in your testimony that you had met with Epstein or seen him, you know, happenstance, sort of running into him or whatever. Did you ever see women that looked young around him or near him at any of those encounters?
p. 84Mr. Waitt.On two occasions he was with a young woman who --
p. 84Ms. Mace.Did she look under 18?
p. 84Mr. Waitt.No. I would have guessed her in her early 20s.
p. 84Ms. Mace.Okay.
p. 84Mr. Waitt.She looked like a model-type. I don't believe you were in the room. I said I think she was Eastern European, and I was told she was his girlfriend.
p. 84Ms. Mace.And did you ever hear any rumors about his behavior, like, in your circles, in polite society, did you ever hear rumors --
p. 84Mr. Waitt.Not that I -- not that I can recall.
p. 84Ms. Mace.-- about what kind of -- what his behavior may have been --
p. 85Mr. Waitt.Not that I can --
p. 85Ms. Mace.-- just in chatter?
p. 85Mr. Waitt.Not that I can recall.
p. 85Ms. Mace.Okay. And then, have you -- you said that you financially supported Ghislaine Maxwell I think to the tune of around 30,000 a month. Was that normal for a girlfriend? Had you given that amount of money to your girlfriends, on average, to help them maintain their lifestyle?
p. 85Mr. Waitt.I haven't had that many girlfriends where I provided -- she was the only one I provided that level of financial support to.
p. 85Ms. Mace.What would have been the -- have you ever provided support to a girlfriend previously or post-Ghislaine?
p. 85Mr. Waitt.Not -- I was married previous to that.
p. 85Ms. Mace.Okay.
p. 85Mr. Waitt.And this was later in our relationship.
p. 85Ms. Mace.So Ghislaine Maxwell is the only girlfriend you've ever paid 30,000 a month to?
p. 85Mr. Waitt.I did provide support to my current wife before we -- before we got married, and I still do. So --
p. 85Ms. Mace.And then the 7 million in the month that you broke up in 2010, September 2010 -- excuse me, it's 8 million, I think. It's a lot of money. Maybe it's 10 or 11. But for that amount of money that you gave her in September of 2010, had you ever given a girlfriend that amount of money?
p. 85Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 85Mr. Skladany.Just for clarity, Mr. Waitt, was it -- the amount that's reflected on the document is 7.2 million. Is that your recollection?
p. 85Mr. Waitt.That's what the document says.
p. 86Mr. Skladany.Okay.
p. 86Ms. Mace.But you'd never given a girlfriend that amount of money?
p. 86Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 86Ms. Mace.And it was the month that you broke up, so was this like a breakup gift? Like, hey, this is like --
p. 86Mr. Waitt.Yes.
p. 86Ms. Mace.-- you know, kind of like a divorce; you were together a long time.
p. 86Mr. Waitt.It was like a palimony settlement-type thing. She was planning on spending the rest of my life with me and was giving, you know --
p. 86Ms. Mace.Did you ever have like an agreement in writing with her when you were all together --
p. 86Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 86Ms. Mace.-- about financials or --
p. 86Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 86Ms. Mace.-- NDA or --
p. 86Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 86Ms. Mace.-- anything like that?
p. 86Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 86Ms. Mace.Okay.
p. 86Mr. Spectre.We've had an additional member join. Mr. Khanna, do you mind introducing yourself for the record?
p. 86Mr. Khanna.I'm Ro Khanna. I represent California's 17th District.
p. 86Mr. Spectre.Thank you.
p. 86Ms. Cathey.Thank you, Mr. Waitt. Thank you for bearing with us. We're jumping around a lot here on a lot of different topics. I'm going to step back a little bit to something that you mentioned very briefly in the first hour. You talked about the 2008 plea deal that was given to Mr. Epstein, his subsequent imprisonment, and everything that came out about Ms. Maxwell following that. So my question is, did you learn that she had been labeled publicly as a coconspirator of Mr. Epstein while you were still dating her?
p. 87Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 87Ms. Cathey.You did not learn that until after you broke up then?
p. 87Mr. Waitt.Yeah. It was -- I think that was -- it was much later.
p. 87Mr. Skladany.Can you clarify when she was identified as a coconspirator?
p. 87Ms. Cathey.The reporting did not come out until -- and I'm sorry, I don't have the specific year. But it didn't come out until a few years after he was in prison. But that's why we're clarifying today when you found out.
p. 87Mr. Waitt.Yeah. It wasn't until -- it wasn't until after we broke up.
p. 87Mr. Skladany.I don't -- just for the record, I don't think any coconspirators were identified in the 2008 conviction and the process leading up to it.
p. 87Ms. Cathey.That's correct. She was not identified in the plea agreement, but it became public, and she was labeled publicly as a coconspirator as time went on.
p. 87Mr. Skladany.Okay.
p. 87Ms. Cathey.And that's what we're referring to.
p. 87Ms. Mace.What year was that?
p. 87Ms. Cathey.I don't have a specific year when the reporting came out, but it was several years after he was in prison.
p. 87Ms. Callen.And which -- I think he went to prison twice.
p. 87Ms. Cathey.The first time he went to prison, which was in 2008.
p. 87Ms. Callen.I think -- I mean, I don't have any recollection of any coconspirators being named in that timeframe, so I think in order for us to opine on that, we would need to see a document.
p. 88Mr. Spectre.The nonprosecution agreement names four women, none of whom are Ms. Maxwell, per my recollection. But it did name four during his initial arrest. And it says, these four and all other potential coconspirators. And subsequent to that, there are media reports that indicated that Ms. Maxwell may have been involved. That's what we are referring to.
p. 88Ms. Callen.I don't think there's -- that was not widely reported at the time. I also think many of those documents were under seal until recently.
p. 88Mr. Spectre.Mr. Waitt, I think you've already been clear, but to be clear again, do you have -- did you have any knowledge during your relationship with Ms. Maxwell that she was considered to be involved in Jeffrey Epstein's crimes in any way?
p. 88Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 88QThank you for clarifying that. During the course of your relationship then, you not knowing that she was being accused in any way, did she defend herself to you and her involvement with Mr. Epstein in his capacity as her employer?
p. 88AYes. I recall late in our relationship her denying any involvement with his -- with his crimes.
p. 88QDid she ever defend Mr. Epstein?
p. 88AI don't recall her defending him.
p. 88QDo you generally remember whether she thought the allegations were true?
p. 88AI don't recall getting into that level of detail.
p. 88QI mean, he was her ex-boyfriend. He was convicted of a very serious crime. You don't recall any conversations about her general feelings towards his conviction.
p. 89ALike I said, she downplayed the event. She made it seem like he, you know -- you know, got a better deal. And, yeah, the conversation -- I just remember her denying any direct involvement with it. When I asked -- because I asked her about it. Like I said, I wish I would have done more research at that time, around the 2008 timeframe. I wish I would have. I didn't think to.
p. 89QAnd including the timeframe that follows your breakup, did you ever contact her again? Once this news started coming out more frequently and she was in the press and being labeled as a coconspirator involved, did you ever contact her again to discuss that?
p. 89ANo.
p. 89QOkay. I'd like to turn now to Ms. Maxwell's civil suits, specifically. Did you assist Ms. Maxwell in any way with any of the civil cases that were brought against her?
p. 89ANo.
p. 89QAnd more generally, did you ever witness anything suspicious about Ms. Maxwell and her relationships with young women or girls?
p. 89ANo.
p. 89Ms. Callen.He's answered that like six times now.
p. 89Ms. Cathey.I understand. It's very hard to hear in the back of the room, so I --
p. 89Ms. Callen.It's in the record six times.
p. 89Ms. Cathey.Understood.
p. 89QI'd like to shift gears just a little bit. How often would you travel with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 89ASometimes every other week -- most every other week, because I had my four children, three of whom were teenage girls at the time. So every other week from Sunday to Sunday. So if I did travel with her, it would have been, at most, every other week.
p. 90QAnd where were you traveling to every other week?
p. 90AVarious places around the world. I had worked very hard for 20 years and, you know, now I was retired. So I was, you know, seeing the world, going to as many places I could, learning a lot.
p. 90QDid you ever take any business trips with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 90ANot that I can recall specifically for business.
p. 90QAnd you mentioned your children. But who else would travel with you whenever you would take these trips?
p. 90AYeah. It was typically just the two of us.
p. 90QAnd I'd like to shift now to Mr. Epstein's property specifically. I recognize that you mentioned many of these in your opening statement, but for purposes of the record, we are going to go through each one.
p. 90AOkay.
p. 90QHave you ever been to Mr. Epstein's island, Little Saint James?
p. 90ANo.
p. 90QDid you ever visit Mr. Epstein's Palm Beach home?
p. 90AOne time I was in Palm Beach with Ms. Maxwell. She said she had to retrieve something from the property. We stopped there. I did not get out of the car. She invited me in. I said no. So I never went inside, but I was in front of the house.
p. 90QWas Mr. Epstein there?
p. 90ANot to my knowledge.
p. 90Mr. Spectre.Why didn't you want to go in?
p. 90Mr. Waitt.I was told he wasn't -- I mean, it was -- it was just weird. It was the ex-boyfriend's -- you know, ex-boyfriend's house. I just didn't -- I just didn't want to go there.
p. 91BY MS. CATHEY:Q Did Ms. Maxwell tell you to stay in the car? A No. No. She invited me in. Q Did you ever visit Mr. Epstein's New York town home? A No. Q Did you ever visit the New Mexico ranch in -- the Zorro Ranch in New Mexico? A No. Q Did you ever visit Mr. Epstein's Paris apartment? A No. Q Did you ever visit the office on 301 East 66th Street that Mr. Epstein owned? A No. Q Did you ever visit New Albany, Ohio? A No. Q Did you ever visit anywhere else that was owned or managed by Mr. Epstein or his staff? A Not that I know of. Q Did you ever fly on any of Mr. Epstein's private aircraft? A No. Q Mr. Epstein ever invite you to fly on his private aircraft? A No. Q Did Ms. Maxwell ever invite you to fly on Mr. Epstein's private aircraft? A No. Q Did you ever fly on any of Ms. Maxwell's aircraft? A I didn't know Ms. Maxwell had aircraft. She was a licensed helicopter pilot, as I said. Mr. Spectre. Did you ever fly on any aircraft piloted by Ms. Maxwell? Mr. Waitt. I had a helicopter that she piloted, but only with another pilot on board at the same time, so -- I had my own helicopter.
p. 92QDid Mr. Epstein ever fly on your private plane?
p. 92ANo.
p. 92QDid you ever fly with Mr. Epstein on any aircraft?
p. 92ANo.
p. 92QWere you ever approached or questioned by law enforcement of any kind in regards to Ms. Maxwell and her crimes?
p. 92ANo.
p. 92QWere you ever approached or questioned by law enforcement of any kind in regards to Mr. Epstein and his crimes?
p. 92ANo.
p. 92Ms. Mace.Do you think it's odd -- this is an opinion. You can tell me the answer or not. But do you think it's odd that no law enforcement apparatus made any inquiries with you at all about, you know, Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell's potential involvement with Epstein because you all had a relationship for so long? Did you find that odd?
p. 92Mr. Waitt.I -- that's a good question. "Odd" might not be the right term. I was kind of expecting it --
p. 92Ms. Mace.Suspicious?
p. 92Mr. Waitt.-- in a way.
p. 92Ms. Mace.Weird?
p. 92Mr. Waitt.I wouldn't say it's --
p. 92Ms. Mace.Suss?
p. 92Mr. Waitt.I wouldn't say it's weird. No, I had no direct involvement --
p. 92Ms. Mace.Yeah.
p. 93Mr. Waitt.-- and I don't think I was ever brought up.
p. 93Ms. Mace.But just being an associate of hers, did you find it off-putting at all? You know what I mean? Like, I would have assumed that law enforcement would have investigated anyone that she had any kind of relationship, business or personal or otherwise, for an extended period of time. You know what I mean?
p. 93Mr. Waitt.Yeah. I'm not familiar with law enforcement practices, so I don't know.
p. 93Ms. Mace.I think it's weird. Like, I just -- there's no investigation at all, her behavior.
p. 93Ms. Cathey.Did you ever --
p. 93Mr. Waitt.I would have been happy to cooperate.
p. 93Ms. Mace.Yeah.
p. 93QDid you ever assist Ms. Maxwell in finding employees to work for her?
p. 93ATo work for her, no.
p. 93QYou never helped her search for candidates for anything?
p. 93ANo, not that I -- not that I can think of.
p. 93QI'd like to return now to minority exhibit marked as G, get that back. This is located on the first page of EFTA number ending in 9058. There's an email from Ghislaine Maxwell to Ted Waitt dated April 2nd, 2004, and the first sentence says, "One of the things I am working on is finding someone to work for you. I think I have some potential candidates." Do you know what Ms. Maxwell is referring to here?
p. 93AI do not.
p. 93QDo you know generally of her ever finding employees to work for you?
p. 93AI think she did assist with finding like housekeeping staff and that -- when I was setting up a new house after my divorce with my wife.
p. 94QDid she ever find anyone to help you in your office, with your foundation?
p. 94AI don't really know. I don't believe so.
p. 94Ms. Mace.Can I ask one last question, then I'm out?
p. 94Ms. Cathey.Yes.
p. 94Ms. Mace.Okay. Going back to this $7,211,238 gifted to Ghislaine Maxwell, was there any legal document between the two of you about what that money was for or why or anything, for any legal or liability reasons? Was an attorney involved? Was there any documentation about what it was?
p. 94Mr. Waitt.It was handled by my staff later. I did not want to have any ongoing contact or relationship with her, so I think the final negotiations were handled by my --
p. 94Ms. Mace.Do you normally pay off --
p. 94Mr. Waitt.-- my finance and legal team.
p. 94Ms. Mace.Was it -- did you normally pay off ex-girlfriends? Is that a thing?
p. 94Ms. Callen.Just for the record, he was married when he founded his company, then he dated Ms. Maxwell, and then he got married again shortly after.
p. 94Mr. Waitt.I --
p. 94Ms. Mace.Okay. But there would have been some kind of a legal document between the two of you about that money. And do you know how you arrived to that figure? It's a very specific figure.
p. 94Mr. Waitt.I believe it was a deduction for the gift tax --
p. 94Ms. Mace.Okay.
p. 94Mr. Waitt.-- was deducted from it.
p. 94Ms. Mace.All right. That's it. Thank you.
p. 94QYou said it was -- the negotiations were handled by your staff?
p. 95AThe final elements were handled by my team.
p. 95QSo just to be clear, was there some kind of negotiation back and forth with Ms. Maxwell about the amount?
p. 95AI don't think it -- I don't -- I don't recall. I think it was -- I recall her not being happy with the amount, wanting more, but that doesn't matter. So it's like --
p. 95QShe wanted more than 7.2 million?
p. 95AYeah. I don't -- I didn't -- so --
p. 95QI'm sorry. Just to be clear, she wanted more than 7.2 million?
p. 95AI don't know. I didn't want to have anything to do with it. I had my team handle it at the end.
p. 95QSo from your recollection, maybe someone on your staff informed you that she was unhappy with the 7.2 million?
p. 95AYeah. I think someone on my staff might have said -- she was very unhappy with the breakup and she was not, you know, in a good state. She was quite devastated by the breakup. So at that point I -- I didn't want to get directly involved and had my team handle the final details.
p. 95QSure. Thank you.
p. 95QTo that point, outside of cash, the 7.2 million, and any other money you might have given her, did you have assets that you and Ms. Maxwell owned together that was tied up?
p. 95AWe didn't have any assets that we owned together.
p. 95QStaying on this topic generally, did you have a professional or financial relationship with Ms. Maxwell outside of your romantic relationship with her?
p. 95ANo, like, professional or financial. Other than the financial support, the $30,000 a month, there was no financial relationship.
p. 95QSo to clarify, did you have any sort of business relationship with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 96ANo. No.
p. 96QYou never invested any money in business ventures that she brought to you?
p. 96ANot that I can recall. She invested her own money in some business ventures, but I don't recall having any investments that we did together. We kept -- everything was very separate.
p. 96QSo you and Ms. Maxwell never had any joint bank accounts?
p. 96ANo.
p. 96QAre you familiar with ELLMAX, LLC?
p. 96AThat was a name she used frequently.
p. 96QAnd that was the name of an entity that she owned?
p. 96AI am not real familiar with that entity specifically or what it did, but she used that -- the ELLMAX name.
p. 96QSo do you know that she had an entity named that?
p. 96AI would -- I beli- -- it sounds like she would have. I don't really recall a specific entity or what it did called ELLMAX, but I think she used that name. So that sounds like something she would have had.
p. 96QUnderstood. Do you know of anything else that she named ELLMAX? You say she used that for other things.
p. 96AI think her email address was ELLMAX, I think. That was a company, like her -- so I don't know if it was -- at that point I didn't know if it was a company or what it was really.
p. 96QUnderstood. And since we're on this timeline, we have jumped around the end of y'all's relationship, we've touched on that in various ways. But you mentioned, ultimately, the relationship ended because you knew that you weren't going to get married. And we talked about Mr. Rothstein. So Ms. Maxwell said in her interview with the DOJ in 2025 that the relationship, quote, "couldn't survive the blackmail threats that were issued against you by Mr. Rothstein." So why would Ms. Maxwell say that that is the reason the relationship ended?
p. 97AI have no idea.
p. 97QDid she ever express to you during the breakup that that was her reason for being upset or for the relationship ending?
p. 97ANot that I can recall.
p. 97QSo in no way, for you anyway, did the blackmail threats or Mr. Rothstein's contacting you have anything to do with the breakup?
p. 97ANo.
p. 97Mr. Skladany.Were you aware of any blackmail threats at the time?
p. 97Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 97Mr. Spectre.Was there anything about your relationship with Ms. Maxwell that could have been leveraged for blackmail?
p. 97Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 97Ms. Callen.And just to be clear, he was -- it's not his understanding that he was ever being blackmailed. It was a business deal, was his understanding, that's being proposed, and he declined. And I think there's documents to that effect.
p. 97Ms. Cathey.Outside of the business deal, the proposal, did Mr. Rothstein ever contact you regarding lawsuits against Ms. Maxwell?
p. 97Mr. Waitt.I never had any direct contact with Mr. Rothstein.
p. 97Mr. Spectre.With interactions of that sort -- I mean, you're a very successful person, of course, and you just mentioned, of course, you have staff. Would an interaction like that -- you know, these sorts of discussions, would that even normally get -- go straight to you, or is that the kind of thing that your staff would handle anyway?
p. 97Mr. Waitt.It came through a friend of mine at the time. Rothstein approached a friend or they got together, so that was -- and he approached my right-hand person at the time.
p. 98Mr. Spectre.Who is that?
p. 98Mr. Waitt.It's not --
p. 98Ms. Callen.It was his --
p. 98Mr. Waitt.The guy that ran my family office. He's worked for me for 30-plus years. And so Mr. Discala approached him, and then he brought it to my attention. If it wasn't -- because it was a friend of mine, he probably never would have even brought it to my attention. Never would have made it to my desk if it wasn't somebody that I knew that brought it in.
p. 98Mr. Spectre.Okay. Thank you.
p. 98QDid you inform Ms. Maxwell about that contact?
p. 98AI believe I did. I believe there's -- I believe there's an email that says I did.
p. 98QDo you remember any conversations outside of those emails about Mr. Rothstein contacting you that you had with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 98AI don't recall any conversations, no.
p. 98QWas that the first time Ms. Maxwell had heard about what Mr. Rothstein brought up?
p. 98AI don't know.
p. 98QYou mentioned Ms. Maxwell and yourself went to Mr. Epstein's Palm Beach house. She invited you in, but you decided to wait in the car. I believe you said she needed to get something from the house. Do you know what she had to get from the house?
p. 98ANo.
p. 98QDid she walk out with anything?
p. 98AI don't -- I don't -- I don't remember.
p. 99QAnd when you were there in Palm Beach, were you guys already there just for vacation or some other purpose?
p. 99AYeah. We were there for some other purpose.
p. 99QIt wasn't a targeted trip to go to Palm Beach?
p. 99ANo.
p. 99Mr. Grant.Thank you.
p. 99Ms. Cathey.For clarity of the record -- because we've bounced around so much -- did you maintain any other form of relationship with Ms. Maxwell following the end of your romantic relationship?
p. 99Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 99Ms. Cathey.And I believe you did mention this earlier, but when was the last time that you spoke to Ms. Maxwell?
p. 99Mr. Waitt.The last time I recall speaking to her was at this Economist ocean conference in San Francisco that she appeared at. And it was quite shocking and surprising that she was there. But that was the last time I remember speaking to her. I'm not sure what year that was.
p. 99Mr. Spectre.Did any proxy or mutual friend, intermediary of any kind, ever try to pass a message from Ms. Maxwell or tell you that she wanted to talk to you after you broke up?
p. 99Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 99Ms. Cathey.And who put on the ocean event?
p. 99Mr. Waitt.The Economist, the magazine.
p. 99Ms. Cathey.The Economist. Okay. Thank you. I missed that.
p. 99Ms. Callen.I think we've tried to look for that date and we can't find it.
p. 99Mr. Waitt.Tried to look.
p. 99Ms. Cathey.Understood. Thank you.
p. 100QIt was an ocean conference, though?
p. 100AOcean conservation. That's where I spend most of my time.
p. 100QAnd so Ms. Maxwell was there likely for her TerraMar Project. Is that right?
p. 100AExactly.
p. 100QDid she ever -- I think you've already, by way of my last question, answered this. But did her or any of her proxies ever ask for financial assistance or donations for that project?
p. 100ANo. And I did not donate anything to that project.
p. 100Mr. Spectre.Thank you.
p. 100QDid you have any involvement in the TerraMar Project?
p. 100ANo.
p. 100QMr. Waitt, are you familiar with the Clinton Foundation?
p. 100AYes.
p. 100QAnd what was the nature and extent of your involvement in the Clinton Foundation?
p. 100AI believe I -- I've gone on trips with Bill Clinton when he's representing the Clinton Foundation. I have made some smaller donations to the Clinton Foundation. Then I said the major donation was to the Clinton Library. I think that went through the Clinton Foundation, but it was specifically for his library.
p. 100QHow many trips did you go on with President Clinton?
p. 100AI remember accompanying him on a trip in -- like maybe two big international trips, one to South Africa and one to when he was doing the tsunami relief and AIDS trip in Papua New Guinea and Indonesia, Thailand.
p. 100QDo you remember what year these trips were?
p. 100ANo, I do not.
p. 100QDo you remember --
p. 101AMid-2000s.
p. 101QSorry for interrupting. Do you remember who else was on this trip -- or either of these trips?
p. 101AOn the one, I believe Ms. Maxwell was on that trip.
p. 101QWhich one was that?
p. 101AThe one we went to Banda Aceh, Indonesia, Thailand, areas affected -- President Clinton was on -- for the tsunami relief. There was a major tsunami that happened in the mid-2000s. It was very devastating. We went on the trip. And then he did an AIDS -- signed an AIDS treaty in Papua New Guinea.
p. 101QAnd Ms. Maxwell was not on the trip to Papua New Guinea?
p. 101AI believe she was.
p. 101QShe was on the trip?
p. 101AI believe she was.
p. 101QSo forgive me for misunderstanding. There were two trips with Ms. Maxwell --
p. 101AThat was one long trip. That was one long trip.
p. 101QThat was one long trip. And the other trip was to --
p. 101AThe other trip was -- Ms. Maxwell was not on, that I recall, and that was to South Africa.
p. 101QAnd what was that trip for?
p. 101AThat was for Nelson Mandela's 85th birthday.
p. 101QOkay. Was Mr. Epstein on the trip --
p. 101ANo.
p. 101QAnd he was not on the other trip?
p. 101ANo.
p. 101QOkay. Thank you. Can you give a brief description of what the Clinton Global Initiative is?
p. 102AThe Clinton Global Initiative followed on after Davos, but to tackle some of the biggest issues, but to get people to actually make commitments to do something about it.
p. 102QAnd what was your involvement with CGI?
p. 102AI would attend some of the early -- the early events. It was very successful in the early days.
p. 102QDid you help establish CGI in any way?
p. 102ANo.
p. 102QDid Ms. Maxwell assist in establishing CGI?
p. 102AShe told me that she did.
p. 102QDid Mr. Epstein assist in establishing CGI?
p. 102ANot that I know of.
p. 102QWere you involved in any way in receiving or managing funding that was given to CGI?
p. 102ANo.
p. 102QWere you aware, at the time that you were involved with CGI, that Mr. Epstein had made a donation to CGI in 2006?
p. 102ANo.
p. 102QDid you and Ms. Maxwell -- and you have kind of answered this already. But did you and Ms. Maxwell maintain communication with either President Clinton or Secretary Clinton while you were involved with CGI?
p. 102AThat would have been all with President Clinton, not Secretary Clinton.
p. 102QAnd would those communications have been through Doug Band?
p. 102ATypically, through Doug Band or one of his other staff -- staff members or -- or, you know, just communication when we saw each other at the various CGI events or --
p. 102QWhat's your knowledge of Mr. Band's relationship with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 103ATheir relationship goes back quite some time, to when Mr. Band and President Clinton left the White House together and Doug went along with President Clinton.
p. 103QSo they were -- Ms. Maxwell and Mr. Band were friends or something else?
p. 103AThey were friends, I believe so.
p. 103QDo you have any knowledge of whether they had any form of romantic or sexual relationship?
p. 103ANo.
p. 103QDid you attend the CGI conference that occurred in September 2013?
p. 103AI'm -- possibly. I don't remember attending one. I attended one later when he did an ocean thing. I was trying to get CGI to do more oceans work because that's my -- my primary thing. I don't know what year that was, though. I don't recall.
p. 103QReporting indicates that Ms. Maxwell was invited to an event in 2013 that was honoring her work in ocean conservation. Do you recall being at that event?
p. 103ANo, I do not.
p. 103QDid you know Ms. Maxwell was being honored at that event --
p. 103ANo.
p. 103Q-- prior to it happening?
p. 103ANo.
p. 103QDid either President Clinton or Secretary Clinton communicate with you that Ms. Maxwell would be honored by CGI?
p. 103ANo.
p. 103QAnd when was the last time that you attended an event for CGI?
p. 103AI don't recall. It was, I believe, that ocean conference. There's a photo of it, but I don't know what year it was.
p. 104QDo you recall the last CGI event that you attended with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 104ANo.
p. 104QDid you and Ms. Maxwell work together on any CGI initiatives?
p. 104ANo. Not that I can recall.
p. 104QDid Ms. Maxwell ever discuss her travel with other people with you? Was there anyone significant that you recall that she would take trips with?
p. 104ANo. Could you be a little more specific maybe?
p. 104QSure. I'll start more specifically. Did she often travel with Mr. Epstein?
p. 104ANo, not that I know of. Not during our relationship.
p. 104QAnd did she ever --
p. 104AShe wouldn't have told me if she did.
p. 104QWhat do you mean by that?
p. 104AI just -- I don't -- I don't remember her ever saying she was traveling with Mr. Epstein. I probably wouldn't have been happy with that.
p. 104QSo she wouldn't have told you because she would have known that you'd be disappointed that she was traveling with --
p. 104ATraveling with the ex-boyfriend, it's not -- yeah.
p. 104QBut you had no reason to suspect that she was hiding it for that reason?
p. 104ANo. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I don't have a reason to expect that.
p. 104QBut maybe she -- is it possible she would have hidden travel with Mr. Epstein from you?
p. 104AIt's possible.
p. 104QShe would have a motive to. Is that right?
p. 104AYeah. Through the course of preparing for this testimony, I've discovered a lot of things I did not know about her relationship with Mr. Epstein in the time we were dating, so --
p. 105Ms. Cathey.Did she ever tell you that she was traveling with anyone else that was related to her work with Mr. Epstein?
p. 105Mr. Waitt.No, not that I can recall.
p. 105QMr. Waitt, at any point during your relationship with Ms. Maxwell -- and we'll include the couple years before that in the early 2000s -- did any other friend of yours mention Jeffrey Epstein to you in any way?
p. 105AI never heard of Jeffrey Epstein until I met him in 2003.
p. 105QAnd did any other investors or anyone else try to get you to invest with him in any way?
p. 105ANo.
p. 105QAnd outside of your family and your lawyers, have you discussed this investigation or interview with anyone else?
p. 105AJust with some friends, I think.
p. 105QAnd which friends would those be?
p. 105AAgain, I don't really want to name them specifically, but I have kind of a rule that I would rather have somebody hear something from me than from somebody else. So I did some texts to family, friends, other people that this was going to be happening, because I'd rather they hear it from me than read it in the press.
p. 105QUnderstood.
p. 105QDid any of them attempt to influence your testimony?
p. 105ANo.
p. 105QWe're approaching the end of our hour, but just kind of one general question. We talked a little bit about this, but just to kind of maybe put a finer point on it. You were dating Ms. Maxwell. She's working for her ex-boyfriend who has been accused of crimes against women and girls. You're aware that he's been accused of those crimes and eventually served time for it. You said that you took Ms. Maxwell at her word that she wasn't involved, so I understand that that's your testimony. But were you not -- you know, this was your girlfriend at the time. Were you not worried for her safety or maybe legal exposure for working for a person like that?
p. 106AAgain, it was my understanding that I didn't know she was still working for him at that point in time. I knew she had worked for him in the past, but I didn't know what their -- I was never privy to what their work relationship actually -- actually was. She was quite stressed around the time of -- in the 2009, '10 timeframe. I'm not exactly sure around her -- some of these subpoenas -- subpoenas, depositions, or testimony that she was supposed to give, around some of these -- some of these lawsuits that named Epstein. She never told me she was ever named in a lawsuit, but she was quite stressed about it.
p. 106QAnd as, you know, of course, you're a very successful person, extremely successful person, and you're a public figure, and you're providing at this time 30- --
p. 106AI don't know if I'm a public figure.
p. 106QMore comes up about you when we google you than about me. So by my standards, you certainly are. And, you know, you're giving Ms. Maxwell, your girlfriend, $30,000 a month already at this -- during this time. And you're hearing about these depositions and, again, you're aware of her past association with Mr. Epstein. Were you not worried about your own exposure, maybe PR exposure for being connected with her at that time, or even were you worried that she was going to come asking for more money to defend herself? I know you've said that you didn't provide more for legal fees, but were you worried about that?
p. 107Ms. Callen.This was the end of their relationship. So, I mean, I think the relationship was ending, so -- and he's answered this numerous times.
p. 107Mr. Giachetti.Understood. But the question -- and thank you for clarifying, but the question was for the witness. If he could be able to testify to his knowledge on that.
p. 107Mr. Skladany.I think it's just important to recognize that the window in which all those things would have been true is very narrow, and it's very much at the end of the relationship. It's not, you know, a 6- or 7-year period, which is, I think, how the question sounded.
p. 107Mr. Spectre.Fine. And maybe I can rephrase the question. But to be clear, Mr. Waitt has already said that those subpoenas, depositions, anything to do with Mr. Epstein -- I believe you said -- was not the reason that you broke up with her.
p. 107Mr. Waitt.It was not the primary -- not the primary reason.
p. 107Mr. Spectre.Right. So the fact that it was near the end of the relationship seems irrelevant to me because that's not why he broke up with her. So what I'm asking is, were you worried at any time that you were going to be exposed, whether it be, you know, exposed to requests for more money from Ms. Maxwell for legal defense, or exposed, you know, in a PR sense? Were you worried about that?
p. 107Mr. Waitt.I was never worried about any financial exposure. I should have been worried about PR exposure. I'm here today.
p. 107Mr. Spectre.But you weren't at the time?
p. 107Mr. Waitt.I was not at the time. Didn't cross my mind. I wish it would.
p. 107Mr. Spectre.Thank you.
p. 107QQuick question. You testified earlier that Ms. Maxwell was on one of these CGI flights. Is that correct?
p. 107AI don't believe it was a CGI-specific flight. I'm not sure what --
p. 108QA flight with President Clinton?
p. 108AYes.
p. 108QAnd in what capacity was Ms. Maxwell on that trip?
p. 108AShe would have been with me.
p. 108QSo she would have been invited by you as a plus one?
p. 108AYeah. Or were we both invited, yes. I'm not exactly sure how it came about, but we both went on the trip.
p. 108Mr. Giachetti.Thank you.
p. 108QI'm sorry. One more on my end here. Understanding they're different companies but, I would say, generally in the same industry, have you ever had a conversation with Bill Gates about Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 108ANo.
p. 108QDo you have any knowledge of Bill Gates' relationship -- any firsthand knowledge, aside from media reports, about Bill Gates' relationship with Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell?
p. 108ANo.
p. 108QNo knowledge?
p. 108ANo knowledge.
p. 108QHave you ever had any communications with other Microsoft executives about Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 108AThere were some Microsoft executives that Ghislaine was friends with.
p. 108QWho was that?
p. 108ABut that was way, way back. But not related to --
p. 108Mr. Skladany.I think the question was whether you ever spoke with Microsoft executives about Maxwell or Epstein. Is that right?
p. 109Mr. Spectre.Yes.
p. 109Mr. Waitt.No. Never -- I did not. I did not.
p. 109QI'm sorry. Because you said it. Have you ever had a conversation with Ms. Maxwell about her relationship with Microsoft executives?
p. 109AIt was way back, she had some friends who were -- I have had a lot of friends who work for Microsoft, so --
p. 109QOf course. When you say way back, do you mean she was friends with them early --
p. 109ADuring our relationship, she had a couple of friends that worked at Microsoft, so -- but I don't think they had anything to do with the Gates relationship with -- with Epstein. I think it was totally separate.
p. 109QDo you know if those friends of Maxwell at Microsoft also had a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein in any way?
p. 109ANo. I don't believe they did.
p. 109QYou don't believe they did or you don't know?
p. 109AI don't know. I don't know.
p. 109QThank you.
p. 109Ms. Cathey.Mr. Waitt, I want to give you the opportunity as we're coming up on the end of our second hour just -- we've gone back and forth on a lot of topics today. And so just with the hindsight that you have now and after a 7-years-long relationship and spending time in preparation for this, is there anything else that you observed about Ms. Maxwell in the course of your relationship or after that you've not mentioned today?
p. 109Mr. Waitt.Nothing I can think of that would be relevant to the -- to the victims.
p. 109Ms. Cathey.And is there anything about your role with Jeffrey Epstein, again, you have not been given an opportunity to say today?
p. 110Ms. Callen.He doesn't have a role with Jeffrey Epstein.
p. 110Mr. Waitt.No.
p. 110Ms. Cathey.Do you have any thoughts, any remarks about Mr. Epstein that you were not given an opportunity to discuss today?
p. 110Mr. Waitt.Nothing I can think of right now.
p. 110Mr. Spectre.Is there anything about -- you've already testified that he -- that Jeffrey Epstein was arrogant and off-putting, I think, were the words you used. Again, understanding that at the time, you know, the reason -- you've already given your reasons for feeling that at the time, but with the benefit of hindsight, is there anything about Jeffrey Epstein's character or the things he did that, now knowing the reporting, that strikes you differently?
p. 110Mr. Waitt.Again, there was the things I knew then and now what we know with the press. I mean, the one thing I wish I would have done, as I think I testified before, is around that 2008, done more research around that point, which I did not -- I did not do.
p. 110Ms. Cathey.We'll go off the record. [Recess.] . We can go back on the record. Mr. Waitt, my colleague has a few questions, then we'll go back to me, and then we'll finish up our questions. [Waitt Minority Exhibit H. was marked for identification.] . Okay. We'll be quick here. I would just like to introduce minority exhibit H into the record. I'll give you all a minute to read that. BY :
p. 110QThis is an email between you, Mr. Waitt, and Ms. Maxwell in October of 2004. And once you've had a minute to look that over, in this email, Ms. Maxwell asks you if you ordered a massage table yet, to which you reply you have not. And then she proceeds to say, "if no, I will forward to Erin what to order." Who is Erin?
p. 111AMy assistant at the time.
p. 111QOkay. And did Ms. Maxwell often interface with your assistant at the time?
p. 111AI believe so.
p. 111QAnd what would they usually talk about?
p. 111AI don't know.
p. 111QOkay.
p. 111ASchedules.
p. 111QSchedule --
p. 111AMy schedule.
p. 111Q-- and ordering things for you and things like that?
p. 111A[No verbal response.]
p. 111QAnd do you know why Ms. Maxwell was working with your assistant specifically to order the massage table?
p. 111AI assume to get massages.
p. 111QFor you to get massages?
p. 111AI assume so.
p. 111QOkay. And had you previously talked to Ms. Maxwell about wanting a massage table?
p. 111AI don't -- I don't remember this exchange, so --
p. 111QOkay. Do you know if you ended up getting the massage table?
p. 111AI assume I did at some point. I get frequent massages.
p. 111QOkay. And you would get them at your home?
p. 111AYes.
p. 112QAnd masseuses would come to your house. Would Ms. Maxwell ever be involved in arranging those masseuses to come to your house?
p. 112AI don't -- I don't recall her specifically arranging a massage. It's just something I've done for quite some time. Also, I was going through a divorce at this time, so -- . Okay. That's all I have on this exhibit. . Okay. Then I will introduce, I think, what might be our last piece of paper for you, and that will be minority exhibit I. [Waitt Minority Exhibit I. was marked for identification.] BY :
p. 112QThat document is six or seven pages long. There's just one bit of content that relates to you on the second-to-last page. You're welcome to scan, but you don't need to --
p. 112ASecond-to-the-last page?
p. 112QSecond-to-last page. Bottom of that second-to-last page. There's a paragraph related to you, and that's it. But I'm happy to give your counsel a moment to look it over.
p. 112AOkay.
p. 112QSo this is another FBI Form 302. It's a summary of an interview that the FBI conducted with an individual. And elsewhere in these notes, the individual says that they worked for Mr. Epstein and then Ms. Maxwell between the years of 1996 and 2002, so before you would have ever met Ms. Maxwell. And the woman says -- the person says that they at one point were Ms. Maxwell's personal assistant. But during that gap, so not overlapping with your relationship with her. But the person says here at the bottom of that second-to-last page ending in 808 that in or around 2007 or 2008, the person had a job interview with Maxwell in California, and the person was interviewing to work for you, Ted Waitt, who Maxwell was dating at the time. It was a project manager position. The person did not get the job, and the person thought that Maxwell had said it was okay if she did not get the job because it was labor-intensive. Do you have any recollection of this interview that the person is describing?
p. 113ANo.
p. 113QDo you have any knowledge, direct or indirect, of the interview that the person is describing?
p. 113ANo. I don't recall.
p. 113QYou touched on it previous round, but did Ms. Maxwell often interview staff on your behalf?
p. 113AShe was experienced in recruiting household staff, and so she spent -- I believe she was involved in it.
p. 113QTo your knowledge, did Ms. Maxwell ever interview or recruit anybody for your staff who either you knew to be under the age of 18 or who seemed unusually young to you?
p. 113ANo.
p. 113QTo your knowledge, did anyone referred to you to work for you by Ms. Maxwell ever disclose anything about Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell committing crimes of any kind?
p. 113ANo.
p. 113QDid you have any knowledge of Ms. Maxwell interviewing staff for you when that staff member had previously worked for Mr. Epstein?
p. 113AI don't recall that.
p. 113QThat's it on that document. Thank you.
p. 113Acouple of last questions. Have you ever met somebody by the name of Faith Kates? Faith -- first name's Faith, last name Kates.
p. 113AKates?
p. 114QK-a-t-e-s.
p. 114AK-a-t-e-s. That name does not sound familiar to me.
p. 114QAnd is it fair to deduce from your reaction that you have no familiarity with who that person is?
p. 114ANo. I don't recall.
p. 114QDid you ever meet somebody by the name Jean-Luc Brunel?
p. 114AI believe one of the instances where I ran into Mr. Epstein on the street at St. Bart's, he was with Jean-Luc.
p. 114QApart -- and that was a pretty limited interaction, I think, as you described. Is that right?
p. 114AYes.
p. 114QWould you estimate it at a -- I know you can't remember specifically, but maybe it's a 2-minute conversation on the sidewalk type of thing?
p. 114AYeah, two or three.
p. 114QDid you have any knowledge outside of that interaction as to who Mr. Brunel was?
p. 114AI believe Ms. Maxwell said he owned a modeling agency.
p. 114QDid Ms. Maxwell ever describe any personal or professional relationship that Mr. Brunel may have had with Mr. Epstein?
p. 114AShe said they were friends.
p. 114QPersonal friends?
p. 114AYes.
p. 114QDid Ms. Maxwell ever describe any kind of business or financial relationship between Mr. Brunel and Mr. Epstein?
p. 114ANo, not that I can recall.
p. 114QDid Ms. Maxwell ever describe that she herself had any kind of personal or business relationship with Mr. Brunel?
p. 115ANo.
p. 115QAnd did Ms. Maxwell ever mention or describe anything at all with respect to Mr. Brunel that struck you as either possibly criminal or ethically problematic?
p. 115ANothing as criminal, but she did not -- she expressed a dislike for him, I recall.
p. 115QWell, what do you recall as the nature or the reason for the dislike?
p. 115AI don't -- I don't recall. It's just like he was not a good person, I think, is what she said.
p. 115QDo you have any sense of -- somebody can be not a good person in a variety of ways. Do you recall whether Ms. Maxwell ever implied that the not a good person concept came from any type of financial misconduct, bad personal ethics, sexual-related misconduct, any color commentary? [1:16 p.m.]
p. 116Mr. Waitt.I don't recall. BY :
p. 116QAnd is it correct to say that you personally never had -- I should say Mr. Brunel was arrested in France in 2020 for various alleged sex crimes. He took his own life before his trial could proceed. Is it correct that you, yourself, never had any knowledge of Mr. Brunel's alleged crimes before those crimes became public?
p. 116ANo.
p. 116QWe have encountered several times the question of whether or not Mr. Epstein ever held himself out as a recruiter for Victoria's Secret. Do you have any direct or indirect knowledge of that topic?
p. 116ANo.
p. 116QI think that wraps up our questions. Is there anything else you would like to share with the committee that you think might be useful for our investigation?
p. 116ANothing I can think of right now. . With that, we can go off the record. [Whereupon, at 1:17 p.m., the interview was concluded.] Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee I have read the foregoing _ _ pages, which contain the correct transcript of the answers made by me to the questions therein recorded. _ _ Witness Name _ _ Date