p. 1COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. INTERVIEW OF: LESLIE GROFF Tuesday, June 9, 2026 Washington, D.C. The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2247, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:00 a.m. Present: Representatives Comer, Higgins, Biggs, Perry, Timmons, Boebert, Lynch, Krishnamoorthi, Khanna, Stansbury, Garcia, Randall, Subramanyam, Ansari, Bell, Tlaib, and Walkinshaw. Appearances: For the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM: DANIEL ASHWORTH, GENERAL COUNSEL BRITTANY BRIGNAC, SENIOR COUNSEL HANNAH CATHEY, PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER JESSICA COLLINS, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR JACK EMMER, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR INVESTIGATIONS EMILY FEYERABEND, COUNSEL RYAN GIACHETTI, CHIEF COUNSEL BILLY GRANT, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL FOR INVESTIGATIONS WILL HARNICE, PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER FREDERICK HILL, SENIOR ADVISOR MARK MARIN, STAFF DIRECTOR PETER SPECTRE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR OVERSIGHT ELLISON TOLAN, COUNSEL ASHLEE VINYARD, DEPUTY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY DEPUTY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY POLICY DIRECTOR , MINORITY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR , MINORITY RESEARCH ASSISTANT , MINORITY RESEARCH ANALYST , MINORITY INTERN , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL , MINORITY PRESS SECRETARY , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL MINORITY FELLOW , MINORITY SENIOR ADVISOR , MINORITY LEGAL INTERN , MINORITY CHIEF COUNSEL For LESLEY GROFF: MICHAEL BACHNER Bachner & Associates, P.C. 111 Broadway, Suite 701 New York, NY 10006 JONATHAN P. WHITCOMB Diserio Martin 1010 Washington Blvd., Suite 800 Stamford, CT 06901 ALSO PRESENT: MARGARET KIBBEN, CHAPLAIN, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES DANIEL GROFF PETER HULL ASHLEY TAYLOR-HULL
p. 5Ms. Tolan.We'll go on the record. This is a transcribed interview of Ms. Lesley Groff conducted by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform under the authority granted to it pursuant to House rule X. Accordingly, House rule X grants the committee broad jurisdiction for the committee to conduct investigations of any matter at any time. This interview was requested by Chairman James Comer as part of the committee's investigation into the circumstances and subsequent investigations into the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell; the operation of sex trafficking rings and ways for the Federal Government to effectively combat them; the ways in which Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell sought to curry favor and exercise influence to protect their illegal activities; and potential violations of ethics rules related to elected officials. Can the witness please state her name and spell her last name for the record?
p. 5Ms. Groff.Lesley Groff, G-r-o-f-f.
p. 5Ms. Tolan.Thank you. I want to thank Ms. Groff for appearing here today. My name is Ellison Tolan, and I'm counsel for Chairman James Comer. Under the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform's rules, you are allowed to have counsel present to advise you during this interview. Do you have counsel representing you in a personal capacity present with you today?
p. 5Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 5Ms. Tolan.Will counsel please identify themselves for the record?
p. 5Mr. Bachner.Good morning. Michael Bachner, B-a-c-h-n-e-r, Bachner & Associates, PC, for Ms. Groff.
p. 5Mr. Whitcomb.Good morning, Jon Whitcomb for Ms. Groff.
p. 5Ms. Tolan.Thank you. We have some Members of Congress here with us today. For the record, starting with the Chairman, can the Members please identify themselves. Chairman Comer. James Comer, Chairman, Kentucky.
p. 6Ms. Tolan.Now, for the record, starting with the majority staff, can the additional staff members please introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation.
p. 6Ms. Brignac.Brittany Brignac, senior counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 6Mr. Emmer.Jack Emmer, chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comer.
p. 6Mr. Ashworth.Daniel Ashworth, general counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 6Ms. Feyerabend.Emily Feyerabend, counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 6Mr. Grant.Billy Grant, deputy chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comer.
p. 6Mr. Marin.Mark Marin, staff director for Chairman Comer.
p. 6Mr. Spectre.Peter Spectre, director of oversight for Chairman Comer.
p. 6Mr. Harnice.Will Harnice, professional staff member for Chairman Comer.
p. 6Ms. Cathey.Hannah Cathey, professional staff member, Chairman Comer.
p. 6Ms. Collins.Jessica Collins, communications director for Chairman Comer.
p. 6Ms. Vinyard.Ashlee Vinyard, deputy staff director, Chairman Comer. Mr. . , deputy staff director, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , chief counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , staff director, Ranking Member Garcia. Chaplain Kibben. Margaret Kibben, Chaplain of the House of Representatives. Ms. . , research assistant, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. . , research analyst, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. . , press secretary, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , legal intern, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , legal intern, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . fellow, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. . , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia.
p. 7Ms. Tolan.And we have another Member who has joined us; if they would introduce themselves for the record.
p. 7Mr. Higgins.Clay Higgins, Louisiana.
p. 7Ms. Tolan.Thank you. Ms. Groff, before we begin, I would like to go over the ground rules for this interview. The questioning will proceed in rounds. The majority will ask questions for up to an hour, and then the minority will have an opportunity to ask questions for up to an hour, if they choose. To the extent Members have questions for the witness, they will be propounded during their side's respective rounds. The clock will stop if you need to confer with counsel, your counsel is speaking, and when Members or staff are speaking during the opposing side's rounds of questions. We will alternate back and forth until there are no more questions. Do you understand?
p. 7Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 7Ms. Tolan.There is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say to make a written record of the interview. For the record to be clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you finishes each question before you begin your answer, and the staffer will wait until you finish your response before proceeding to the next question. Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this interview, please speak clearly, concisely, and slowly. Also, the court reporter cannot record nonverbal answers, such as nodding or shaking your head. So it is important that you answer each question with an audible, verbal answer. Do you understand?
p. 7Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 7Ms. Tolan.Exhibits may be entered into the record. Majority exhibits will be identified numerically. Minority exhibits will be identified alphabetically. We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and truthful manner possible. So we will take our time. If you have any questions or do not fully understand the question, please let us know. We will attempt to clarify, add context to, or rephrase our questions. If we ask about specific conversations or events in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words or details, you should testify to the substance of those conversations or events to the best of your recollection. If you recall only a part of a conversation or event, you should give us your best recollection of those events or parts of the conversation that you do recall. Do you understand?
p. 8Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 8Ms. Tolan.Although you are here voluntarily, you are required by law, pursuant to title 18 of the United States Code, section 1001, to answer questions from Congress truthfully. This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in this interview. Do you understand?
p. 8Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 8Ms. Tolan.If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you could be subject to criminal prosecution. Do you understand?
p. 8Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 8Ms. Tolan.This includes both knowingly providing false testimony but also stating that you do not recall or remember something when you, in fact, do. Do you understand?
p. 8Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 8Ms. Tolan.Furthermore, you cannot tell half-truths or exclude information necessary to make statements accurate. You're required to provide all information that would make your response truthful. A deliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement. Do you understand?
p. 9Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 9Ms. Tolan.Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's interview?
p. 9Ms. Groff.No.
p. 9Ms. Tolan.Please note that, if you wish to assert a privilege over any statement today, that assertion must comply with the rules of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. Pursuant to that, Committee rule 16(c)(1) states, for the chair to consider assertions of privilege over testimony or statements, witnesses or entities must clearly state the specific privilege being asserted and the reason for the assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or appearance. Do you understand?
p. 9Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 9Ms. Tolan.Ordinarily, we take a 5-minute break at the end of each hour of questioning, but if you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know, and we will be happy to accommodate. However, to the extent that there's a pending question, we would ask that you finish answering the question before we take the break. Do you understand?
p. 9Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 9Ms. Tolan.Do you have any other questions before we begin?
p. 9Ms. Groff.I do not.
p. 9Ms. Tolan.And I think -- have more Members joined the room? If they would introduce themselves for the record.
p. 9Ms. Boebert.Lauren Boebert, Colorado Fourth.
p. 10Mr. Subramanyam.Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia 10th.
p. 10Mr. Garcia.Robert Garcia, ranking member, Democrats.
p. 10Mr. Emmer.We have also had additional staff members join. Can they please identify themselves for the record? Ms. . , communications director, Ranking Member Garcia.
p. 10Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi from Illinois.
p. 10Mr. Timmons.Congressman William Timmons, South Carolina.
p. 10Ms. Randall.Congresswoman Emily Randall from Washington State.
p. 10Mr. Emmer.We understand that Ms. Groff has family members in attendance. Can they announce themselves for the record?
p. 10Mr. Groff.Yes. Daniel Groff, G-r-o-f-f.
p. 10Ms. Taylor-Hull.I'm Ashley Taylor-Hull.
p. 10Mr. Hull.And Peter Hull.
p. 10Ms. Tolan.Thank you. Ms. Groff, do you have an opening statement?
p. 10Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 10Ms. Tolan.Feel free to read that now.
p. 10Ms. Groff.Okay. Good morning. Chairman, Ranking Member, and members of the committee, my name is Lesley Groff. I have no experience in public speaking. I have never testified in court. I am introverted and shy, and this is petrifying to me. So I apologize to you if my responses are awkward. Still, I am here. I look forward to providing information to this committee voluntarily, just as I did in 2021 when I spoke voluntarily with prosecutors in New York. I want to help you in any way I can. I hope that it will prevent this evil conduct from ever occurring again. I believe that my testimony will dispel the false notions that, because of my employment with Epstein, I must have knowingly enabled or conspired with him to commit these evil acts. Nothing could be further from the truth. Since Mr. Epstein's arrest in 2019, I struggle with sleep. I can't eat. Many of my friends and acquaintances have shunned me. For the last 7 years, my now 21-year-old son's life has been in turmoil, and I have been the target of harassment and death threats. I have chosen to speak with you to tell you the truth as I know it. My recollection of many things is generally poor since they occurred as far back as 25 years ago. I will try my very best, and I thank you for your patience. I want to say without any doubt that I have come to believe the man who employed me from February of 2001 through July of 2019 was a monster. For 18 years, I worked for Dr. Jekyll, but was never permitted to see the true Mr. Hyde. Mr. Epstein was, in hindsight, a master manipulator and deceiver who separated his legitimate life from his secret life as an abuser and made sure that, as his secretary, those two worlds did not collide. I had every reason not -- excuse me. He had every reason not to tell me about his crimes. He had no leverage on me. I was not, like Sarah Kellen -- whose testimony just broke my heart -- sexually abused by Epstein. I did not need the job. Our family was financially secure. Most importantly, I would never have sat silent if I knew of his crimes. Mr. Epstein used me and intentionally kept me on the outside of his perverted life. He did not know me when I was hired. It was nonsensical for him to confide in me, a total stranger, or allow me to learn that he was abusing women. Now, let me tell you a little about myself. I was born in Dallas and raised in a protestant home in Plano. I graduated from the University of Texas at Dallas. I moved to New Jersey in 1990 and married my first husband in '93. I worked at his office supply company. I then worked as a salesperson at Nordstrom's. After my divorce, I met my husband Ike. I decided I wanted to be an event planner. So I posted my resume on Monster.com. I was contacted by a headhunter about a job with the New York Knicks. Unfortunately, I missed the interview because of a snowstorm in Manhattan. That same day, the headhunter asked if I was interested in working for a wealthy businessman as an administrative assistant to keep his very busy life organized. That same day, I interviewed at the Helmsley Palace with Ghislaine Maxwell and then with Mr. Epstein. They explained to me that I would be with Mr. Epstein's executive assistant -- excuse me -- secretary organizing his calendar, making appointments, and dealing with his endless calls. I could tell this was an office environment that looked exciting, challenging, and attractive to me. About a week later, I accepted the job at a salary of $50,000. From 2001 through 2009, I worked exclusively out of the Helmsley Palace. When I began working for Mr. Epstein, I was 35 years old. I was trained by , the woman I was replacing. explained that I would be inundated with calls, scheduling, and coordinating his staff to make sure that they fulfilled his often demanding work requests -- for example, making sure that he had reading glasses at every table at every one of his homes and offices, or sourcing very late in the day a dozen chocolate croissants made in New York to be delivered to Palm Beach by 9:00 the next morning. Ms. Maxwell, , and other staff also told me that Mr. Epstein's day included a morning muffin, a private yoga lesson, and a massage. For me, many of his routines were luxuries, but everyone treated them as very normal, and I was expected to arrange them as part of my job. I was astonished by the truly impressive people in his circle: past Presidents, military leaders, former politicians, foreign dignitaries, actors, musicians, scientists, authors, mathematicians, university professors, inventors, titans of business, models, fashion designers, and philanthropists. It was a world I had no experience with, and I was captivated by it. I actually felt lucky to have found such an amazing job. I was thrust into the lifestyles of the rich and famous. Mr. Epstein's directive for a massage was just another small part of that elite world I was not from and was a very small part of what was demanded of me on a daily basis. From day one, Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell established guardrails. They made it very clear to me that I was a replaceable employee. Maxwell and Epstein told me that I was never to associate with their friends or contacts, or I would be fired. The people I spoke with in my job were their friends and colleagues -- not mine. Their business was none of my business -- and not to forget it. If I messed up an appointment, I could be fired. Frequently, Mr. Epstein yelled at me to the point of tears. When I made an error with an appointment, he screamed that I ruined his day and that the time lost could never be replaced. I recall that, weeks after I was hired, one of Mr. Epstein's contacts invited me to attend a party with my husband in New York City. The next workday, Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell, who were not at the party, somehow found out that I had attended, and they torched me. They told me I had crossed a line into his social life, and I would be fired. Instead, Mr. Epstein put me on probation. He ordered me to completely separate myself from his personal world. In hindsight, I wish he had fired me. Since that time 25 years ago, I have never socialized with Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell. I have never been on his airplane. I have never been to one of his parties. I never visited him in jail after he was convicted in 2008 or after he was arrested in 2019. I never accompanied him to Little Saint James or to Zorro Ranch or to his Palm Beach residence. In fact, in my 18 years as his secretary, I've been to Little Saint James three times: once with my husband and twice for work to view construction projects. These visits were during the day and lasted only a couple of hours. I stayed at his Paris guest apartment once with my husband. Mr. Epstein was not there. From 2001 to 2009, I worked exclusively at the Helmsley Palace. When you entered the reception area, my office was located in the rear of the suite, and I could not see who entered or exited. Visitors were able to enter and leave Mr. Epstein's office through a separate entrance without seeing them -- without me seeing them. In 2009, the offices moved to 66th Street, then to 575 Lexington Avenue, and then, around 2013, to his mansion on 71st Street. Not once did I see or hear anything illegal. Every morning Mr. Epstein called me at 9 a.m. with literally dozens of matters for me to complete that day. I had no free time. I went from task to task. I had two phones on my desk ringing constantly. Almost daily, I made massage appointments for Mr. Epstein. He provided me the name and telephone number of a masseuse, and I called her. These calls lasted literally a few seconds. "Hi, this is Lesley calling for Mr. Epstein; are you available for a massage at 4:00?" Sometimes masseuses called the office and asked if Mr. Epstein wanted a massage. On occasion, Mr. Epstein directed me to arrange massages for his guests, both men and women, at hotels and spas. To me, the few minutes it took to arrange massages for Mr. Epstein were just part of his routine, like going to the gym was for some people. From 2001 to about 2013, I never stepped foot in the mansion, nor have I ever been in the private quarters of his home, including where the massages took place. I have never seen photos of nude women there. From in or about 2005 to 2007, when I became pregnant and gave birth to my son, I was rarely at the office. I had a job-sharing agreement with , who had also just given birth, and I worked from home at least 2 days a week. I only came into the office on the rare occasion when Mr. Epstein was there. It is important for the committee to understand that, to my knowledge, I never met any of these masseuses. None of these women or anyone else ever told me they were minors or that they were sexually abused. Nothing I heard or saw led me to believe otherwise. Even Sarah Kellen, who courageously told this committee about her sexual abuse, confirmed that she never told me of her abuse even though we spoke with each other. Finally, I wish to address why I did not leave Epstein's employ. After his arrest in 2008, my experience in that regard was similar to Ms. Kellen's and others. Like Sarah, it was not until sometime after Mr. Epstein's conviction that I learned the government and Mr. Epstein's lawyers had included me and others in the nonprosecution agreement as potential conspirators. I am not a conspirator, and I never would have agreed to this language. Their unilateral decision to label me as a potential conspirator remains my scarlet letter. After his arrest in 2008, Epstein lied to me and insisted that he had been blackmailed and set up. His attorney told me the same thing. He angrily said that the allegations against him were false, and he had no idea that the women he had contact with was a minor. It was a shakedown, he claimed, for money. In my mind, that was the reason that he was treated so leniently by law enforcement for such a serious crime. Although I considered resigning, Epstein convinced me to remain. He played on my loyal nature. I actually believed that he had been set up. I believed that he could be kind and generous and caring because of the way he often treated me and others. I know now that this kindness was a facade and just a part of his manipulation. I also saw the same VIPs continue to surround Epstein after his conviction. I know now that everything he did was a scheme intended to protect himself. Members of the committee, my heart breaks for these women. I believe them. Words cannot express how badly I feel that I was employed by Mr. Epstein during the time he abused these women. I will live with that horrible feeling for the rest of my life. But what I cannot and should not live with are the false innuendos and accusations that I knowingly aided his evil conduct, and that is why I'm here today. Thank you.
p. 15Ms. Tolan.Thank you. The time --
p. 15Mr. Emmer.We've had another Member join. Can she please announce herself for the record?
p. 16Ms. Stansbury.Hi. I'm Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico's First Congressional District.
p. 16Ms. Tolan.The time reads 10:20, and the majority's time will begin now. EXAMINATION
p. 16QThank you for appearing here today. We appreciate your assistance in this investigation. I'm going to go through a few background questions. Some might be repetitive from your opening statement, just so the record is clear. Where were you born?
p. 16ADallas, Texas.
p. 16QAnd what year were you born?
p. 16A1966.
p. 16QAnd can you briefly describe your professional career for the committee?
p. 16AMy professional career?
p. 16QYes.
p. 16AMy first job?
p. 16QYes.
p. 16AMy first job was when I was in fifth grade. I walked from my elementary school to a little preschool to help my mother teach dance to little girls that worked there -- not worked there -- went there. And then, in seventh grade, I believe, I started working for my father, who was an entrepreneur. He owned his own construction company. And my sister and I would stack bricks and scrape windows of the homes that he built. I also worked for Friday's as a hostess, and I taught dance when I was in 11th and 12th grade. During college, I worked at Chili's as a waitress. And then I moved to New Jersey, and I worked for my first husband in his office supply company. It was a commercial office supply company. I was just a customer service rep. And then, after that, I worked for Nordstrom's. I sold men's clothing. And then, after that, I got the job with Mr. Epstein.
p. 17QAnd what year was that?
p. 17AThat was 2001.
p. 17QAnd when did your employment with Mr. Epstein end?
p. 17A2019.
p. 17QAnd were you working the same position that entire time?
p. 17AYes.
p. 17QExecutive secretary. Is that correct?
p. 17AExecutive secretary.
p. 17QAnd were there any breaks in your employment, or was it all the way through from 2001 to 2019?
p. 17AI mean, no official breaks, except for when I was pregnant; I definitely went on maternity leave for about 3 or 4 months.
p. 17QAnd are you currently employed?
p. 17AI am not.
p. 17QDo you currently receive any income?
p. 17AI do not.
p. 17QTell me about the first time you interacted with Jeffrey Epstein.
p. 17AThat would be on the day I went for the interview. I first met, I believe, with Ms. Maxwell's assistant, , and then I met with Ms. Maxwell, and then I met with Mr. Epstein in his office, and he interviewed me. It was rather quick, maybe like 10 minutes. It was -- I sat in front of his desk, and I noticed that the phone kept ringing, and he would take the calls and speak briefly and then hang up and then speak with me again.
p. 18QAnd this was also in 2001; do you recall the month or the date on that?
p. 18AI believe it was February, I believe.
p. 18QFebruary 2001?
p. 18AUh-huh.
p. 18Mr. Emmer.We've had another Member join. Can he please announce himself for the record?
p. 18Mr. Biggs.Andy Biggs, Arizona-5.
p. 18Ms. Brignac.Ms. Groff, who was ?
p. 18Ms. Groff.Ms. Maxwell's assistant at the time.
p. 18QAnd where did this interview take place again?
p. 18AAt 457 Madison Avenue. It was the Helmsley Palace.
p. 18QAnd how did you receive the opportunity to get this interview?
p. 18ARight. So a headhunter had called me for a position at the New York Knicks, and he had found my resume on Monster.com. He had his own business. But, unfortunately, I couldn't get into the city when he wanted me to, and by the time I got in, the position for the New York Knicks was already taken. And, once he met me, he consulted with some other people in the office and came back to me and said, "You know, we might have another position if you're interested. It would be working for one man who, you know, you would organize his life. He's a socialite. He's a businessman." It sounded, you know, exciting. And he asked me, if I had time, that he would call this gentleman and see if I could actually go down for an interview that day. And, amazingly, he was available, and I actually walked up to the Helmsley Palace, and that was the interview.
p. 18QAnd you mentioned speaking with Mr. Epstein, and he was taking calls. What was he like during the interview?
p. 19AHe was very businesslike, very -- I mean, just businesslike, professional.
p. 19QAnd what did he ask you during the interview?
p. 19AWhere I had worked before. So I let him know about the office supply company and Nordstrom's because those were my most recent jobs. He asked me if I, you know, was able to use a computer, if I've worked on a computer before, and, you know, could I type, you know, things along those lines.
p. 19QDo you recall any other discussions you may have had with him?
p. 19AIt's so long ago. I just think it was all very basic.
p. 19Mr. Emmer.We've had another Member join. Can he please announce himself for the record?
p. 19Mr. Lynch.Congressman Stephen Lynch from Massachusetts Eighth District.
p. 19Mr. Emmer.Thank you.
p. 19Mr. Lynch.Thank you for having me.
p. 19QAnd did you also interview with Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 19AI did. Her first, yeah.
p. 19QWhat was she like during the interview?
p. 19AShe was professional, friendly, wanted to make sure kind of the same things, you know, had I -- could I use a computer or type; was I okay with fast-paced atmosphere; wanted to know my background, you know.
p. 19QDid you interview with anyone else besides Maxwell and Epstein?
p. 19AI did speak with at the beginning, just a little bit, and it was probably more of the same. She probably just introduced herself to me and let me know a little bit about the office.
p. 19QAnd you said you became his assistant or executive secretary about a week later. Is that correct?
p. 20ACorrect.
p. 20QAnd did he offer you employment?
p. 20AI'm not sure if it was him or Ms. Maxwell who may have called. It was probably Ms. Maxwell. That seems to make more sense.
p. 20Ms. Brignac.Was leaving the office?
p. 20Ms. Groff.She -- she was not -- she left about a year later after I started. Is that what you --
p. 20Ms. Brignac.Yes. Thank you.
p. 20QAnd you stated that your initial offer included a $50,000 salary. Is that correct?
p. 20AThat's correct.
p. 20QWere there any other benefits tied to this job offer, healthcare, housing, anything like that?
p. 20AI believe healthcare was also offered, yes.
p. 20QAnything else?
p. 20ANot at that time.
p. 20QAnd you mentioned this, I believe, in your opening statement, but when you were given the job initially, were you aware that you would be scheduling massages for Mr. Epstein?
p. 20ANot at that initial first -- when I first spoke to him during the interview. But, after I started, yes, that was one of the things that was definitely spoken about, that a massage would be part of his day, and it was all treated very normally.
p. 20QAnd who told you that?
p. 20AI believe it was Ms. Maxwell, probably . It was just known in the office.
p. 20Ms. Brignac.And who was going to train you in how to schedule these massages? Were you told at the beginning?
p. 21Ms. Groff.Yes, I was told at the beginning. I'm sure it was and -- all of them probably. Everybody took a hand in helping me. You know, there was a lot to learn. It was, you know, very fast-paced, two phones on my desk. It was overwhelming.
p. 21Ms. Brignac.Did you find anything about the massage scheduling to be odd when you first started?
p. 21Ms. Groff.Absolutely not. It was just like another appointment. It was like going to the gym. It was -- it was very normal.
p. 21Mr. Timmons.Did you schedule -- sorry. Did you ever schedule any of the other assistants for massages?
p. 21Ms. Groff.No.
p. 21Mr. Timmons.So everybody that you scheduled for a massage seemed like they possibly were a massage therapist?
p. 21Ms. Groff.I believe that, yes.
p. 21Mr. Timmons.Okay.
p. 21QAnd what did you know about Mr. Epstein prior to meeting him?
p. 21ANothing. Nothing. I wasn't even told who I was going to meet with until I got there.
p. 21QHad you heard anything about him?
p. 21ANo.
p. 21QDid you do -- well, next question. Did you -- did anyone raise concerns about Mr. Epstein to you?
p. 21ANo, no.
p. 21QAnd what were your first impressions of Mr. Epstein?
p. 21AThat he was powerful, knew a lot of important people, professional, businesslike, super busy, standoffish, you know. We didn't have conversations. It was just about business and what he wanted accomplished that day. It was not a friendly --
p. 22QDid you immediately understand him to be a wealthy individual?
p. 22AOh, yes.
p. 22QDid you know how he acquired his money?
p. 22AI didn't know how. I was -- believed that he was a money manager.
p. 22QHow did you come to learn that?
p. 22AI think it was just talked about in the office with all the other administrative staff.
p. 22Ms. Brignac.So, when you accepted this job offer, what did you understand about his position?
p. 22Ms. Groff.I believed he was a money manager, managed other people's money.
p. 22Ms. Brignac.Was that told to you at the interview.
p. 22Ms. Groff.I don't -- I assume it was, that I was told he was a money manager.
p. 22QAnd how many clients did Mr. Epstein have during the period of your employment?
p. 22AIt's hard for me to say. I definitely know his biggest client was Les Wexner, and then he had some other clients as well.
p. 22QCan you name them?
p. 22ACan I name them? I think it was Rothschild. You know, it was some other big names. He talked to Mort Zuckerman. I don't know if he was a client. Nothing is coming to mind, but there were definitely important people calling.
p. 22QDid you ever communicate directly with these clients?
p. 22AJust answering a phone call and passing the phone call through to Mr. Epstein.
p. 22QAnd were they frequent visitors of Mr. Epstein?
p. 23AThe businesspeople?
p. 23QYes.
p. 23AI wouldn't say frequent. Every so often.
p. 23QAnd did you ever conduct any work for any of those individuals?
p. 23ANo.
p. 23QWe're going to go into more specifics later, but for now just some general questions. Can you briefly describe the extent of your relationship with Mr. Epstein?
p. 23ASure. I would say the relationship is hardly a relationship. It was very, very business, professional. I was not close to him whatsoever, and I do believe that's exactly the way he wanted it.
p. 23Mr. Emmer.We've had another Member join. Can she please announce herself for the record?
p. 23Ms. Ansari.Yassamin Ansari, Arizona's Third District.
p. 23QThe headhunter, could you tell us a bit more about how you came in contact with this person?
p. 23AOf course. He called me because he saw my resume on Monster.com. He had his own firm, and I know his name was Russell. I can't remember his last name. But it was his own firm and said he called me in for the New York Knicks job, and I went into the city, met him.
p. 23QWhat was the name of his firm?
p. 23AI don't recall. I don't recall. It was on Madison Avenue, I believe. And, you know, I'd come to -- Mr. Epstein or someone -- might have been Ms. Maxwell or -- somebody had hired his firm, Russell's firm to find a secretary.
p. 23QSo were other employees of Epstein's procured from this firm?
p. 23AI'm not sure.
p. 24QYou likely worked in assisting to recruit other assistants and employees for Epstein. Did you use this firm?
p. 24AI -- I actually did not. That was not under my heading. I never contacted any headhunter firms or was in charge of recruiting. I do recall interviewing some -- some women when he wanted -- I was actually thinking he wanted to replace me. But perhaps it was, you know, he just wanted another executive assistant. But that was one time. But I don't know where exactly -- what firm that came from.
p. 24QAnd did you work for Mr. Epstein until he died in 2019?
p. 24ANo, not until he died. I actually resigned prior to that.
p. 24QWhy?
p. 24AIt was time for me to resign and -- yeah. I discussed it with my, you know, family, and I wanted to leave.
p. 24QAnd what was the date of your resignation?
p. 24AI don't know the exact date. I believe it was in July of 2019.
p. 24Ms. Brignac.What was the reason you left?
p. 24Ms. Groff.What was the reason I left? I -- I didn't understand what was going on, and I didn't want to be with him -- associated with him. I was, you know --
p. 24Ms. Brignac.What took place that brought those feelings of confusion?
p. 24Ms. Groff.Well, he was arrested, and that was -- that was scary to me. I didn't -- I didn't like that. I didn't want to be associated with him. I didn't understand what was going on.
p. 24QDid you have those same feelings after his first arrest in 2006?
p. 24AThat was a different time. He -- I actually -- he explained to me that he was being blackmailed, and this was all a big -- it was all false, and I believed him. And it appeared to me everybody in the office felt the same way. He was very good at manipulating, very good liar. Now we can all see that. And, at the time, I actually felt sorry for him. I thought, wow, this must be really difficult to be a wealthy person and not know who you can trust because everybody just wants your money. So --
p. 25QDid you ever doubt what he told you or ever think the allegations were true?
p. 25ANo, I did not.
p. 25Mr. Timmons.He was arrested on July 6th of 2019. Did you resign before or after?
p. 25Ms. Groff.After.
p. 25Mr. Timmons.Just the week after you found out he was arrested and you resigned?
p. 25Ms. Groff.That is correct. Yeah.
p. 25QAnd then just a few more general questions. How often did you communicate with Mr. Epstein as his secretary?
p. 25AYes. Well, in the beginning, he was absolutely crazy. He did not have email. He would communicate with me -- probably every 15 minutes, he would call the office and, you know, give me directives on how he wanted to organize his day, and it was -- it was just a crazy, crazy time. It was hard to keep up. It was very challenging. But he would -- yeah. He would call every 15 minutes.
p. 25QAnd how often were you with him in person?
p. 25ANot very often. He would come into the office -- if he was in New York City, he would come into the office for half a day. He really wasn't in the office that much.
p. 25QAnd did you ever have a romantic relationship with Mr. Epstein?
p. 25ANo.
p. 25QDid you ever have a sexual relationship with Mr. Epstein?
p. 25ANo.
p. 26QDid Mr. Epstein ever meet any of your family members?
p. 26AHe briefly met my husband when we were at a Mick Jagger concert, but it was literally one second. He said "hello," and that was it.
p. 26QAnyone else?
p. 26ANo.
p. 26QWhen was the last time you communicated with Mr. Epstein?
p. 26AIt was probably sometime in July or -- of 2019.
p. 26QDo you remember the nature of those communications?
p. 26ANo.
p. 26QAnd when was the last time you saw him in person?
p. 26AI don't recall exactly. It was maybe in June of 2019, but I don't recall.
p. 26QAnd then were you ever abused or assaulted by Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 26ANo.
p. 26Ms. Brignac.What was his reaction when you resigned?
p. 26Ms. Groff.I didn't speak to him. I told his attorney, Darren Indyke, that I was resigning.
p. 26Ms. Tolan.How would you characterize your relationship with Ms. Maxwell?
p. 26Ms. Groff.Purely professional. Just --
p. 26Mr. Higgins.Mr. Chairman, may I? I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to have to leave in a few minutes. You're doing a very composed job. Thank you for being here.
p. 26Ms. Groff.Thank you.
p. 26Mr. Higgins.Regarding the massage therapist, you've explained your interaction regarding calling them and communicating and arranging. So I just have a couple of questions there.
p. 26Ms. Groff.Of course.
p. 26Mr. Higgins.Did the telephone system at the office have caller ID?
p. 26Ms. Groff.I don't recall. I don't -- I don't recall. I don't think so.
p. 27Mr. Higgins.Okay.
p. 27Ms. Groff.I don't -- I don't know. It was so long ago. Was there caller ID?
p. 27Mr. Higgins.Did you have any way of knowing when you called these ladies that you believed to be massage therapists, did you have any way of knowing that you were calling a massage company or business, or was it always a personal phone? Can you shed some light on that?
p. 27Ms. Groff.I believe it was cell phones.
p. 27Mr. Higgins.It was cell phones?
p. 27Ms. Groff.Uh-huh.
p. 27Mr. Higgins.So did the massage therapists ever introduce themselves? Did they -- did they ever come give a massage to Mr. Epstein at the office?
p. 27Ms. Groff.Oh, never. No.
p. 27Mr. Higgins.Okay. I'm just asking. I don't know.
p. 27Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 27Mr. Higgins.Did you ever meet any of them in person?
p. 27Ms. Groff.I did not.
p. 27Mr. Higgins.And did you ever have a conversation with them about their equipment, like, how were they transporting their equipment, or did you presume that it was a business?
p. 27Ms. Groff.I knew that they were to meet at his home, and I believe that he was -- he was equipped with what he needed.
p. 27Mr. Higgins.I see. And was the massage therapy session timed? Did they say, "I'm going to do this from 2:00 to 3:00 because I have another appointment at 4:00," or what?
p. 27Ms. Groff.His day was very, very scheduled.
p. 27Mr. Higgins.No. For the massage therapist.
p. 27Ms. Groff.Yes. So they -- they would, you know, come for 30 minutes or whatever, you know, the time. It was -- it was usually short.
p. 28Mr. Higgins.So was that a time schedule that you scheduled? Like, the window that they were going to be with Mr. Epstein --
p. 28Ms. Groff.Uh-huh.
p. 28Mr. Higgins.-- or whomever, was it -- was there a window that you scheduled?
p. 28Ms. Groff.Was it a window I scheduled? It was -- I don't know that I ever gave an exact, you know, time. But I knew that, if I was scheduling something else for him, say, someone was coming at 2:00 for a massage, and then I knew his next appointment was 2:30. Does that make sense?
p. 28Mr. Higgins.Okay. And how were these massage therapists paid?
p. 28Ms. Groff.I believe that he paid them. And there were sometimes when I would be asked to please ask our accounting department to send, say, $200 for -- in an envelope via messenger or picked up from his driver to be delivered to a masseuse.
p. 28Mr. Higgins.And where would that be delivered to, an address provided to you?
p. 28Ms. Groff.Correct.
p. 28Mr. Higgins.Did you keep documentation of those addresses?
p. 28Ms. Groff.I did not.
p. 28Mr. Higgins.Okay. And where would the cash come from?
p. 28Ms. Groff.in our accounting department had a petty cash box.
p. 28Mr. Higgins.Okay. Final question about the massage therapists. Did it ever strike you as odd, ma'am, that, when you were calling a massage therapist, it was not a massage therapy business?
p. 28Ms. Groff.No. I considered it, like, an independent contractor type of situation.
p. 28Mr. Higgins.Okay. That's all my questions. Thank you.
p. 28Mr. Biggs.Can I ask a question, too? Thank you. I just -- we've talked about a number of -- I want to know, was there a number of different massage therapists, or was it one or two, or the same one, or how was that?
p. 29Ms. Groff.It changed throughout, you know, the time. Sometimes it would be the same one, and then other times -- it was always directed by Mr. Epstein.
p. 29Mr. Biggs.That's what I wanted to ask you. Where did you get the name and number? He provided those to you?
p. 29Ms. Groff.That is correct. Yes.
p. 29Mr. Biggs.And was this -- this was a daily occurrence?
p. 29Ms. Groff.It could be. I'm sure there were days that there was no massage.
p. 29Mr. Biggs.Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much.
p. 29Mr. Emmer.Just as a followup, were there days that he would receive multiple massages?
p. 29Ms. Groff.I don't believe so. I've heard that, but I don't believe -- I don't recall booking multiple massages. I can say if -- if one person was not available, he might provide me a different name and phone number. But to me, it was one.
p. 29Ms. Tolan.And you scheduled -- did you schedule all of Mr. Epstein's massage appointments, or were other individuals involved in this?
p. 29Ms. Groff.I think other individuals were probably helping schedule as well.
p. 29Ms. Tolan.Do you know who?
p. 29Ms. Groff.It could have been Sarah Kellen at that time, maybe , , the administrative staff.
p. 29Ms. Brignac.So what was your role in scheduling massages?
p. 29Ms. Groff.I was his main secretary. So -- but, if I wasn't -- if I was sick or if I was not, you know, in the office for some reason, vacation.
p. 29QWere you responsible for scheduling massages at a specific residence of his or anywhere?
p. 30AIt was mostly his home in New York City. That's, you know, where I -- I would schedule.
p. 30QAnd did you ever schedule for his -- massages for his Palm Beach residence?
p. 30AIt's possible.
p. 30QAny of his other residences?
p. 30AIt's possible.
p. 30QAnd you've already touched on this a little bit, but how would you know who to schedule?
p. 30AMr. Epstein would direct me on who to call.
p. 30QHow?
p. 30AOh, he would call me. And, when he gave me his 20 pages worth of notes to schedule for the day, that would just be one of the things to schedule.
p. 30QCan you describe what it would say?
p. 30AWhat he -- well, he would call me and rattle off everything that he wanted to happen that day in the morning, 9:00 a.m. sharp. And it would just be one of the -- you know, "Schedule a meeting with, you know, Leon Black"; "Schedule a meeting with Mort Zuckerman"; "Here's the call list of, you know, 30 people I want to call today"; "Make me a massage appointment with so-and-so"; and then, onward with, you know, "Let's see if we can have a lunch with so-and-so," type of thing.
p. 30QWould he give you the contact information for the individual he wanted scheduled for a massage?
p. 30AYes.
p. 30QTo include what information?
p. 30AName and phone number.
p. 30QAnd did you ever ask how he got this information?
p. 30ANo.
p. 31QAnd then you would directly reach out to these women. Is that correct?
p. 31ACorrect, yes.
p. 31QOr sometimes they would reach out to you, I think you mentioned earlier?
p. 31AThat's correct.
p. 31QHow frequently would they reach out to you?
p. 31AHow frequently? If he was in --
p. 31Mr. Bachner.Keep your voice up.
p. 31Ms. Groff.Keep my voice up? I would say it happened, you know -- if he was in town and a masseuse knew, they might call, you know, once a week, twice a week to see if he would see them.
p. 31Mr. Timmons.And quick question. So, pre-jail, it seemed that Ghislaine did a lot of the finding of the massage therapists and a lot of the coordination. After that, it was more structured, and there were different people that were finding of-age women all over the planet, Eastern Europe and whatnot. You have a number of emails where you're communicating with people to introduce very young but of-age girls to Mr. Epstein. Did you think that was strange, including photos of beautiful women, saying "These are two people; I think you'd like them," and then you would facilitate the introduction? One, did that occur often?
p. 31Ms. Groff.It did occur. Mr. Epstein always wanted to widen his -- his Rolodex of people. He always wanted to meet people, and it was not just when it came to women. When it came to men as well and the scientists and the professors, he oftentimes said, "If you know someone that you think I would enjoy meeting and you think are smart, and I would -- please bring them along." It was just kind of very what he did. He wanted to -- he was a --
p. 31Mr. Timmons.So it's not unusual for someone to email you and say, "This is a 21-year-old from Ukraine, and she's very beautiful; here are some photos; we think that Jeffrey would like her," and then she would send that email to you. And you would then take that email to Mr. Epstein and say, "This person sent this," and you would say, "Do you want to meet this person?" That's normal?
p. 32Ms. Groff.That's correct. He had -- he was involved with a lot of the modeling agencies, and he was just a connector.
p. 32Mr. Timmons.Okay. In retrospect, the other seven or eight people that he referred to as assistants, you're aware that they are victims of sex trafficking and human trafficking?
p. 32Ms. Groff.I'm aware that they're saying they're victims now.
p. 32Mr. Timmons.Okay. I mean, they've been deemed victims by multiple Federal courts, mediations. They've received hundreds of millions of dollars of settlements.
p. 32Mr. Whitcomb.Are you asking her awareness now, sir?
p. 32Mr. Timmons.Yeah. Are you aware currently that that's the case?
p. 32Ms. Groff.I am. I am.
p. 32Mr. Timmons.Okay. In retrospect, do you think that all of these things kind of go together? I mean, he's got girls coming from Eastern Europe, and he's developing a system of control over eight people that worked for him, and you're the right hand of that control. Like, does --
p. 32Mr. Whitcomb.Just objection to the form. You can answer.
p. 32Mr. Timmons.Did you control the credit cards of his eight assistants?
p. 32Ms. Groff.No, I did not.
p. 32Mr. Timmons.Did you have a PIN number for their apartments? Did you control their apartments?
p. 32Ms. Groff.No, I did not.
p. 32Mr. Timmons.Would you -- what if they said differently?
p. 32Ms. Groff.I don't think they would.
p. 32Mr. Timmons.Okay.
p. 33Ms. Brignac.Ms. Groff, you answered a question about massages with the fact that he was well-connected to modeling agencies. Did he ever use models as masseuses?
p. 33Ms. Groff.I don't know.
p. 33Ms. Tolan.And can you estimate how many different masseuses Jeffrey Epstein used?
p. 33Ms. Groff.I don't know.
p. 33Mr. Biggs.Would you say it was more than a dozen different masseuses?
p. 33Ms. Groff.I would say it was more than a dozen.
p. 33Mr. Biggs.More than 20?
p. 33Ms. Groff.Twenty, 30, over a time period.
p. 33Mr. Biggs.What time period are you thinking?
p. 33Ms. Groff.2001 to 2007.
p. 33Mr. Biggs.So, during that 6-year period, you think maybe somewhere between 20 and 30, or is it more likely more than 30?
p. 33Ms. Groff.I -- that sounds right, but I really don't know.
p. 33QAnd what informed your opinion that he was well-connected to modeling agencies?
p. 33AWell, his biggest client was Les Wexner, and I knew that he was friendly with other business owners, Faith Kates of Next Modeling.
p. 33QBut he was well-connected to lots of different influential people. Why do you, per se, he was well-connected to modeling agencies amongst very few others? What about the modeling agencies stands out to you?
p. 33AWhen I first got hired, it just -- there was a lot of talk about modeling and modeling agencies and Les Wexner and that sort of thing, and I just -- it was -- it was just known around the office.
p. 33QDid you hear office gossip about how he would interact with these models?
p. 34ANo.
p. 34Ms. Tolan.The committee's reviewed multiple documents related to Jeffrey Epstein, including his phone directories. I will now introduce as majority exhibit 1. [Groff Majority Exhibit No. 1. was marked for identification.]
p. 34Ms. Tolan.These are excerpts of Mr. Epstein's phone directories that the committee received from the estate of Jeffrey Epstein. These excerpts are labeled as massage lists with names or redacted names of individuals, cell phone numbers, and a description next to the name.
p. 34Mr. Bachner.Before you ask a question, could I just have a quick --
p. 34Ms. Tolan.Yes. Take a moment.
p. 34Mr. Bachner.Thank you.
p. 34QMs. Groff, have you seen these lists before?
p. 34AThis looks like the little black book that was a directory that was kept on -- you know, in the office and at his homes.
p. 34QWhere all were they kept, all residences?
p. 34AI believe all residences, yes.
p. 34QAnd you said in offices. In Mr. Epstein's office or in your office?
p. 34AOne was on my desk when I started, and I believe they were on the other administration's -- administrator assistants' desks as well.
p. 34QAnd, Ms. Groff, did you create these lists?
p. 34ANo.
p. 34QDo you know who did?
p. 34AI believe it was Ms. Maxwell.
p. 35QDo you know how she created the list?
p. 35AI do not. I think over time.
p. 35QAnd is this -- to the best of your recollection, is this what the list looked like when you began working for Mr. Epstein?
p. 35AYes.
p. 35QDid you add to, change, or remove any names from any of these lists?
p. 35AI'm sure I added to the list. I don't think we ever took things out, but we added.
p. 35Ms. Brignac.What would warrant adding someone to this black book?
p. 35Ms. Groff.Anyone he met. If I was directed to put a phone number -- a name in and a phone number in, I would then put it in. I would actually put it into the computer system, not into the black book. I think the black book was printed from the directory that was on the computer system at the time.
p. 35QSo who else had authority to add or change names on the directory?
p. 35AI think it would be anyone in the office.
p. 35QAnd you mentioned already, but did you use this list to schedule massage appointments for Mr. Epstein?
p. 35AHe directed me on who to schedule, so -- and usually it was a name and a phone number. Maybe if it was someone that he was -- he was hiring. For a while -- after a while, I got -- he didn't have to give me the phone number because I -- the phone number was in the directory. But he would -- yeah.
p. 35QSo he would -- if he provided you a name, you would use the directory for the number?
p. 35ACorrect.
p. 35QAnd previously you mentioned that anyone else in the office would have had the ability to change or access these lists. Is that correct?
p. 36ACorrect.
p. 36QWho were you referring to there?
p. 36AIt would be Ms. Maxwell, , . We had receptionists at the time, you know, a couple of different ones. , who was Darren Indyke's assistant, could add and subtract. Anybody who had access to the computer system should be able to add and subtract. [11:00 a.m.]
p. 37QAnd Mr. Epstein, you said, would tell you names and numbers of who to call. Were there ever times when you would -- if he just said he wanted a massage, would you ever choose who to schedule?
p. 37ANo.
p. 37QAnd on the first page of this list, which is House Oversight Bates 400, there is a list of massage names specific to New York.
p. 37AUh-huh.
p. 37QAnd on the back of the page there is a list of names also specific to New York. These are labeled (a) and (b). Do you know why there is an (a) and (b) list for New York?
p. 37AI do not.
p. 37QI know it's redacted, but do you know from your role if there's any difference in these two lists?
p. 37AI do not.
p. 37QThere is also a list of massage names specific to Florida. Do you know who is on that list? Do you know who created the list?
p. 37AI do not. It was before I got there.
p. 37Ms. Brignac.But you did add to the list, correct?
p. 37Ms. Groff.Yes, I could have added to the list, but -- yeah, I don't -- yes, I added to the list at times, but this was -- the whole book was before I got there. It had already started.
p. 37Ms. Brignac.Can you recall who you may have added?
p. 37Ms. Groff.I don't know.
p. 38QAnd did you schedule from the Florida list specifically at any point?
p. 38AIt's possible that I scheduled for Florida, but I don't recall anything offhand. Nothing stands out.
p. 38QSame questions here. There is also a list, "Massage - New Mexico." Do you know who created that list?
p. 38AI don't. I would think it would be Ms. Maxwell.
p. 38QAnd did you also use this list to schedule massages for Mr. Epstein in New Mexico?
p. 38AIt's possible. He didn't go there very often, but it's possible.
p. 38QWas there a list of masseuses specific to Paris, France? We know he had an apartment -- Mr. Epstein had an apartment there. Was there a list?
p. 38AI don't know. Is there a list?
p. 38QThere was not in anything we received, so just if you had knowledge of a list.
p. 38AOh. I don't recall a list.
p. 38QAnd then within this document, there is also a list specific to the U.K. Do you know why Mr. Epstein would have had a list of massage names specific to the U.K.?
p. 38AI do not.
p. 38QDid he ever maintain a residence there?
p. 38AIn the U.K.?
p. 38QYes.
p. 38ANot that I'm aware of.
p. 38QDid he frequently travel there?
p. 38ANo.
p. 38Ms. Brignac.So then what would the U.K. list be used for?
p. 38Ms. Groff.I don't know. I guess if he went to the U.K.
p. 38Ms. Brignac.Did you use it to schedule other people?
p. 39Ms. Groff.Oh, no, no, no.
p. 39QAnd then same questions. There also appears to be a list specific to California. Did you use this list to schedule massages for Mr. Epstein in California?
p. 39AI don't recall.
p. 39QDo you know why he had a list specific to California?
p. 39AI do not.
p. 39QDid he ever maintain a residence in California?
p. 39ANot that I'm aware of.
p. 39QAnd did he travel there often?
p. 39ANot often.
p. 39QAnd then there does not appear to be one in this directory, but do you know of there being a list specific to the Virgin Islands?
p. 39AI'm not aware of a list specific to the Virgin Islands.
p. 39QAnd next to -- you can see it next to the -- all of the list, there are parentheticals. A lot of them read redacted names friend, redacted names rmate, which we understand to be roommate, redacted pal, and even on page 5 one of the parentheticals reads GM, who we understand to be Ms. Maxwell, really likes. What was the purpose of these descriptors?
p. 39AI don't know. I don't even recall descriptors. I really did not use this directory. I used what was on the computer system. It was much faster.
p. 39QBut, Ms. Groff, you had access to this book.
p. 39AUh-huh.
p. 40QDid you not find it odd that some of the masseuses were friends of other masseuses and not coworkers?
p. 40AI did not. I guess I did not. I didn't think about it.
p. 40QIn 20 years, you never asked: Why are we booking masseuses' friends to come give massages as well?
p. 40Mr. Bachner.I don't -- respectfully -- I don't think you laid the foundation that she saw friends there. I think she said she used something in the other computer system.
p. 40Mr. Whitcomb.Or that massages were happening for 20 years. Same objection.
p. 40Ms. Brignac.Thank you. I'd still like for you to answer the question.
p. 40Ms. Groff.About friends? I don't recall seeing these -- what did you call them?
p. 40QDescriptors.
p. 40ADescriptors? Yeah, I don't -- I didn't -- I don't recall seeing the descriptives or people talking about descriptives. I would just be given the directive.
p. 40QSo these were not in the online database version?
p. 40ANot that I recall.
p. 40QAnd so these were for Mr. Epstein's awareness rather than you --
p. 40AI don't know if they were for his awareness, Ms. Maxwell's awareness. I don't know whose awareness they were for.
p. 40QAnd you mentioned there is the online version of the directories. What database was that information stored on? Do you know?
p. 40AI don't have independent knowledge or recollection of this, but I did read Sarah's testimony and it --
p. 40Mr. Bachner.Do you want her recollection or do you want to know what she read?
p. 41Ms. Tolan.Her recollection, if you know.
p. 41Ms. Groff.Oh, I don't -- yeah, I don't -- I don't remember.
p. 41QAnd do you know if any of that information was ever deleted during the first investigation into Mr. Epstein?
p. 41AI do not.
p. 41QAnd do you know if it was deleted at any point?
p. 41AI do not.
p. 41QWas this information ever switched to a different database?
p. 41AWe did switch over to Mac computers.
p. 41QMs. Groff, I'm going to read you a list of names. For each name, please answer "yes" or "no" to the following question. And I will have follow-up questions for each person that you answer "yes" to. The question is, have you ever scheduled or arranged a massage at any of Jeffrey Epstein's properties for any of the following individuals? Frederic Fekkai?
p. 41ANo.
p. 41QAndrew Mountbatten-Windsor, formerly Prince Andrew?
p. 41ANo.
p. 41QHarvey Weinstein?
p. 41ANo.
p. 41QTerje Larsen?
p. 41ANo.
p. 41QTommy Mottola?
p. 41ANo. Q Jes Staley? A No. Q George Mitchell? A No. Q Henry Jarecki? A No. Q Eduardo Teodorani? A No. Q Leon Black? A No. Q Glenn Dubin? A No. Q Lapo Elkann? A I don't even know who that is. No. Q Tom Pritzker. A No. Q David Mitchell? A No. Q Did you ever schedule massages of any kind for any of these individuals? A No. Q Do you recall scheduling meetings of any kind for any of these individuals? A Meetings with Mr. Epstein, yes.
p. 42BY MR. EMMER:Q Other than Mr. Epstein, did you ever schedule massages for any other individual? A I scheduled a massage appointment for Kathy Ruemmler at a spa. And I know he gave -- that's it, that I can recall.
p. 43QWhat did you understand Mr. Epstein's relationship to be with Kathy Ruemmler?
p. 43AProfessional. Business.
p. 43QDid you think it was weird that he directed you to schedule a massage for Ms. Ruemmler?
p. 43AI did not.
p. 43QAnd when you were scheduling massages, what information did you gather from the masseuses to schedule them?
p. 43AJust if they could make it, make the appointment or not.
p. 43QDid you ever ask for their age?
p. 43ANo.
p. 43QDid you ever ask if they needed travel or car service?
p. 43ANo.
p. 43QWere all of the masseuses that you scheduled females?
p. 43ANo. He had -- I know of one man that he would schedule a massage with.
p. 43QHow frequently?
p. 43ANot that frequently.
p. 43Ms. Brignac.Did anyone else besides Mr. Epstein give you contact information for masseuses?
p. 43Ms. Groff.I think it was just him.
p. 43QAnd did you ever see any of the masseuses in person?
p. 43ANo.
p. 43QDid anyone ever express concerns to you about their appearance or their age?
p. 44ANo.
p. 44QWere all of the masseuses local to the area?
p. 44ATo New York?
p. 44QUh-huh.
p. 44AI believe so.
p. 44QWhat did you know about their background, where they came from?
p. 44ANothing.
p. 44QIt never came up in conversation whether with them or another individual?
p. 44ANever.
p. 44QWere you aware that many of them were coming from local high schools at the time?
p. 44ANo.
p. 44QWere their qualifications as masseuses ever reviewed?
p. 44ANo.
p. 44QBy anyone.
p. 44AI don't know.
p. 44QAnd where did the actual massages take place in the New York residence?
p. 44AAt his home. I don't know.
p. 44QWhere specifically? What room?
p. 44AThe massage room.
p. 44QCan you describe that a little more?
p. 44AI've never seen it. I don't know any -- I don't know about it.
p. 44QDid you maintain an office space within this New York residence at any point?
p. 44AIt was only after about 2013 that I ever stepped foot into his house. Prior to that, I was in offices elsewhere.
p. 45QJust quick follow-ups. Did you have any role in preparing the massage room to be used?
p. 45ANo.
p. 45QDid you have any role in greeting masseuses when they visited the residence?
p. 45ANo.
p. 45QWere you ever present in the room when Mr. Epstein was receiving a massage?
p. 45ANo.
p. 45QI understand that Congressman Biggs has some questions.
p. 45Mr. Biggs.Thank you. Thank you very much. I don't want this to be tedious, but I just really feel like we need to explore this. Recalling the database that you used to make calls to set these appointments, and looking at this list in this exhibit that you have before you now, do they seem at least similar to you? I mean, do you recognize some of the same names, numbers, et cetera?
p. 45Ms. Groff.Most of them are redacted.
p. 45Mr. Biggs.Most of the New York ones are redacted?
p. 45Ms. Groff.Are redacted, right. I recognize Dawn as Dawn Wicks in Palm Beach.
p. 45Mr. Biggs.Palm Beach. She's in Florida?
p. 45Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 45Mr. Biggs.Any others?
p. 45Ms. Groff.No.
p. 45Mr. Biggs.Let's explore that for a second. Dawn W-R has three numbers and three descriptors by them. One is (b), one is (w), one is (h). I don't want to assume something, but what did those mean?
p. 45Ms. Groff.I would think work, home. I don't know what (b) means.
p. 45Mr. Biggs.Business perhaps?
p. 46Ms. Groff.Business.
p. 46Mr. Biggs.Which raises this odd question. I mean, you had her home number, you had her work number and her business number. Did that strike you as odd that she had multiple -- apparently multiple --
p. 46Ms. Groff.Numbers?
p. 46Mr. Biggs.-- phone numbers with multiple --
p. 46Ms. Groff.She --
p. 46Mr. Whitcomb.You've got to let him finish his question.
p. 46Mr. Biggs.Yeah, through multiple places. You can go there.
p. 46Ms. Groff.It did not strike me as strange. Dawn -- yeah.
p. 46Mr. Biggs.Was she a regular of his?
p. 46Ms. Groff.She had -- she and her husband had a medical spa. Her husband was a chiropractor. And I know Mr. Epstein went to her spa.
p. 46Mr. Biggs.Let's go back to the front page, because this is something -- this is unredacted. And I don't know if you said that you made some -- maybe you made some appointments in California. Did I understand that right?
p. 46Ms. Groff.It's possible. He didn't go to California very often.
p. 46Mr. Biggs.Looking at the list, perhaps you looked at it then. As you go down that list, particularly in the second row there, second column, I should say, Gypsy has a phone number. Gypsy has a phone number. Another Gypsy has a phone number.
p. 46Ms. Groff.Oh, yes.
p. 46Mr. Biggs.Sports connection has a phone number. And then did -- looking at those then, did you see those then? Let's just clarify that.
p. 46Ms. Groff.It's possible.
p. 46Mr. Biggs.Would it strike you as odd that there's no name, it's just Gypsy?
p. 47Ms. Groff.Gypsy was the male masseuse.
p. 47Mr. Biggs.There's multiple Gypsys on here.
p. 47Ms. Groff.It was -- that was his name. That's what he called him.
p. 47Mr. Biggs.Well, there's another one named and the descriptor there is '(one of gypsy)." What does that mean?
p. 47Ms. Groff.Oh, I don't know.
p. 47Mr. Biggs.I mean, I don't want to suppose, but, I mean, there's some suppositions we could make. But that's -- you didn't find that curious." Perhaps let's go to the U.K. massage list for a second. You have a number -- you've got some redactions there. What's not redacted is Los Angeles. What might that mean? Do you see that? It's the second column, I'm sorry, last one of the redacted in the "Massage - U.K."
p. 47Ms. Groff.Oh, I don't know.
p. 47Mr. Biggs.The one above it says Amsterdam.
p. 47Ms. Groff.Uh-huh. I don't know.
p. 47Mr. Biggs.Jean-Luc bim.
p. 47Ms. Groff.Jean-Luc?
p. 47Mr. Biggs.Do you know who Jean-Luc bim is?
p. 47Ms. Groff.I don't know.
p. 47Mr. Biggs.I'm going to stop there, but -- well, I'm not going to stop there. I'm going to ask another question, and then I'll stop, and that is, as you think back now, looking back now from this vantage point that you're in now, and you had a database on the computer, you have this black book that you had access to as well. Did any of this strike you as kind of odd, that Mr. Epstein was keeping literally -- by my count, well over 75 different discrete names in various massage columns from all over the world vis-à-vis whatever he had in the database? Did it strike you as odd at all?
p. 48Ms. Groff.Does it strike me as odd now?
p. 48Mr. Biggs.Yeah, looking back.
p. 48Ms. Groff.He had so many people in his realm and knew so many people. It doesn't strike me as odd that he has a lot of different people in his black book, in his directory. It's not surprising that he -- it just -- the width and the depth of the people he knew, this is one category, but I believe he had the same amount of people in other categories as well.
p. 48Mr. Biggs.But in particular with the massage category, all over the world, that didn't strike you as odd? That, for instance, in California he maintained 26 -- the names of 26 different masseuses?
p. 48Ms. Groff.I mean, he was a very wealthy man and he knew a lot of people. And when he went to -- any time he met anyone, it would be put them in the directory. It could be a passing.
p. 48Mr. Biggs.He must have been a prolific massage receiver. Thank you. Thank you.
p. 48Mr. Emmer.We've had another Member of Congress join us. Can he please identify himself for the record?
p. 48Mr. Perry.Representative Scott Perry, Pennsylvania's Tenth District.
p. 48Mr. Emmer.We've also had additional staff members join since we started. Can they identify themselves for the record? Mr. . , senior advisor, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. . , director of oversight and policy, Ranking Member Garcia.
p. 48Mr. Emmer.Thank you.
p. 48Ms. Tolan.Recognizing we only have a couple minutes left in our hour -- go ahead.
p. 48Mr. Emmer.We've had another Member join. Can he please identify himself for the record?
p. 48Mr. Walkinshaw.James Walkinshaw, 11th District, Virginia.
p. 49QRecognizing we only have a little bit of time, I'm going to ask you a few quick questions. Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein have sexual contact of any kind with any other young woman or girl?
p. 49ANo.
p. 49QDid you ever witness Ms. Maxwell have sexual contact of any kind with any other young woman or girl?
p. 49ANo.
p. 49QDid you ever witness Mr. Epstein abuse or assault any young woman or girl?
p. 49ANo.
p. 49QDid any young woman or girl ever tell you that Mr. Epstein or anyone else abused or assaulted them?
p. 49ANo.
p. 49QDid you ever witness Mr. Epstein exploit any young women or girls?
p. 49ANo.
p. 49QDid you ever witness Ms. Maxwell exploit any young women or girls?
p. 49ANo.
p. 49QDid you ever witness any other individual, aside from Mr. Epstein, abuse or assault any young women or girls?
p. 49ANo.
p. 49QI'm going to ask you a list of names for the same question. Did you ever witness any of the following individuals abuse or assault any young women or girls? Frederic Fekkai?
p. 49ANo. Q Philip Levine? A No. Q Les Wexner? A No. Q Leon Black? A No. Q Bill Gates? A No. Q Jes Staley? A No. Q Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor? A No. Q Harvey Weinstein? A No. Q Terje Larsen? A No. Q Tommy Mottola? A No. Q George Mitchell? A No. Q Henry Jarecki? A No. Q Eduardo Teodorani? A No. Q Glenn Dubin?
p. 51ANo.
p. 51QLapo Elkann?
p. 51ANo. I don't know who that is.
p. 51QTom Pritzker?
p. 51ANo.
p. 51QDavid Mitchell?
p. 51ANo.
p. 51QDid you ever hear of any allegations about any of these men?
p. 51ANo.
p. 51Mr. Timmons.Real quick. From 2013 until you left, the majority of that time, there were eight 20- to 35-year-old women that were in the house with him at all times. What do you think they did? What was their job? Like, they were just around?
p. 51Ms. Groff.You're referring to the --
p. 51Mr. Timmons.I've got , , , , , , and and . What did they do? So they were around for years.
p. 51Ms. Groff.They were, and --
p. 51Mr. Timmons.And you ran their lives.
p. 51Ms. Groff.I did not run their lives.
p. 51Mr. Timmons.Did you control when they got a haircut?
p. 51Ms. Groff.I did not control when they got a haircut.
p. 51Mr. Timmons.We got an email. We'll get to that in a minute. But, so, I mean, they say that their credit cards were controlled by Epstein, by you, Kahn, Indyke, and . They had loans taken out in their names. Their apartments were at the behest of Epstein. And they say that you were largely responsible for managing that. Their computers, their phones, their flights, their hotels, all of their travel, all of their life was run by Epstein. What do you think those humans were doing during that time? Why did they exist in the world?
p. 52Ms. Groff.I believed them to be traveling assistants, and none of them ever looked unhappy or under duress. They were -- would travel with him and do errands and source things. They were not all together all the time with him. It was a demanding job to travel with him, it would appear to me. To have to leave, given 12 hours notice, "Hey, we're going to go to Palm Beach tomorrow." To me, it would become grueling to ask one person to do that all the time. I think they would get burnout. And so he would take one or two with him. But they would get him coffee, they would get him -- go out and buy him a burger. It was an assistant chore type of position. And they would --
p. 52Mr. Timmons.They just all happened to be fairly beautiful and similar age?
p. 52Ms. Groff.I think that in order to be a traveling assistant, it seems consistent that you would have someone who was in their 20s and early 30s, not married. It made sense as that seems typical to me.
p. 52Mr. Timmons.In retrospect, do you appreciate that they feel like they were victims of sex and human trafficking and were being controlled by Epstein every part of their life?
p. 52Ms. Groff.In retrospect? In hindsight? In hindsight, it's terrible. I can't imagine what they were going through. It's amazing to me that they were able to put on such a good front and seem happy. It was just -- it's hard -- it's hard for me to fathom.
p. 52QMs. Groff, I recognize we are at time for our hour, but I just have three very quick questions to end on. Do you have direct knowledge of Mr. Epstein ever engaging in sexual relations with any of his assistants?
p. 53ANo.
p. 53QDid you ever witness Mr. Epstein receive a massage from young women or girls?
p. 53ANo.
p. 53QDid you ever receive a massage from anyone associated with Mr. Epstein?
p. 53AI went to a spa one time, not associated with him.
p. 53Ms. Tolan.Thank you. We will end our hour there and go off the record. [Recess.] Ms. . Good morning, Ms. Groff. My name is , and I will be doing most of the questioning for the minority today. I'm going to cover some of the same topics that the majority covered with you in the previous round. This is not to make you repeat yourself, but rather to make sure we have as clear a record as possible. I appreciate your patience while I do that. In addition, to the extent that any of my questions or any of your answers involve survivor names or other survivor identifying information, I ask on behalf of the minority that the majority redacts the information prior to releasing the transcript publicly. EXAMINATION BY MS. :
p. 53QMs. Groff, I'd like to start with your work for Mr. Epstein. You started working for him in 2001, correct?
p. 53AYes.
p. 53QAnd you were 35 years old at that point?
p. 53AYes.
p. 54QYour title was executive secretary, correct?
p. 54AYes.
p. 54QAnd you were paid $50,000, correct?
p. 54AYes.
p. 54QYou talked a little bit about your role and responsibilities and also about the people that you worked with. Can you say more about the other assistants that Mr. Epstein had and your relationship to them?
p. 54ASure. In the office, there was an assistant to Ms. Maxwell. There was an assistant to the two attorneys. There was, when I first started, a traveling assistant. There was another assistant there. She was only there briefly. And we had a receptionist. I replaced . She was Mr. Epstein's assistant. And then I replaced her, so then became the receptionist.
p. 54QDid you at any point manage any of those assistants?
p. 54ANo.
p. 54QSo you never had your own team of assistants?
p. 54ANo.
p. 54QAnd how did you fit within the larger operation? So you mentioned earlier Darren Indyke. Also there was Richard Kahn. Would they have ever asked you to do anything, would Ghislaine Maxwell have ever asked you to do anything, or did you only respond to Mr. Epstein?
p. 54AIt was Mr. Epstein purely.
p. 54QWhat might a typical day look like?
p. 54ASure. I would get in, try to get in by at least 8:55, because he was definitely calling me at 9 a.m. sharp. He would call me and give me 10 to 20 pages of notes of things that he had, to me, been thinking about all the night before, all throughout the night, in the morning, and he would call me with all of his directives of the people that he wanted to see that day. The call list was always huge. He would direct me to coordinate with his house staff if he was going to be, say, leaving that day or the next day for Palm Beach. He would want to make sure that the Palm Beach staff was going to be ready to go and ready for his visit. I would have to coordinate with pilots and he would give me -- it's possible he gave me directives for people in the office as well to communicate. He would -- it was just -- it was crazy. It was very, very busy. Because at the same time that he was giving me all his directives, people were also calling in for him as well. I had the two phones on the desk, and it was just nonstop. So I would take messages from people who were calling in for him as well as him giving me directives.
p. 55QWhen you say he would have directives for people in the office to communicate, what do you mean?
p. 55AIt would be, like, tell Darren to be sure and call so and so today. Like, I was just the go-between to tell Darren so that he didn't have to call Darren himself type of thing.
p. 55QGot it. You talked a little bit about this earlier, but how would Mr. Epstein typically communicate with you?
p. 55AIt was at first all telephone, all telephone. There was no -- I don't even think he had a cell phone. He definitely didn't email. So there were a lot of -- that's why he called me so often, to find out his messages and find out about his schedule and give me more things to do. He was -- it was very typical for him to book things and then reschedule and then book again. It was chaotic.
p. 55QAt what point did he start emailing you? Because he clearly did email you eventually.
p. 55AYeah, he clearly did. I would say it was more around 2011, '10, '11, about then.
p. 56QOkay. So before 2011, 2012, he mostly called you, correct?
p. 56ACorrect, yes.
p. 56QDid he also text you?
p. 56ANo. We were not texters.
p. 56QOkay. Mr. . And just to go back quickly, you listed out who worked in the office, and you mentioned Maxwell's assistant. You mentioned . Could you give us the names of those individuals, please? Who was Maxwell's assistant?
p. 56Ms. Groff.When I first started it was , and then it was . Mr. . Was there anyone else in the office that you recall?
p. 56Ms. Groff.Yes. There were two attorneys, Darren Indyke and Jeff Schantz. There was an accountant. Eric Gany (ph) was there when I first started. And then it changed to Rich Kahn. There was , who I thought was the assistant to the accountant, the bookkeeper. There was Henry -- Henry -- Harry Beller, who I thought was the trader, did his trades, that sort of thing. And there was after a little while Emad Hanna, who was the controller. Mr. . Thank you. BY MS. :
p. 56QWhat kind of hours did you work?
p. 56AAt first it was 9 to 5. It was typical. And then after I had my son, it was -- it changed. I was given a very flexible schedule. I would work usually two or three days a week in the office, only when he was in town, and I job-shared with . She would sit in for me when I was not there. And I got to work from home when he was not around.
p. 56QAnd you had your son in 2004, 2005?
p. 56A2004. December 16th, 2004, so right on the cusp of 2005.
p. 57QSo from 2001 to 2004, you are working 9 to 5 in the office.
p. 57AI think once I got pregnant and was really, really pregnant, I got to work from home some as well.
p. 57QAnd once you had that flexible schedule, did you keep it, or was there a point where you were in the office five days a week?
p. 57AI got to keep a flexible schedule, and I got to leave early as well. There was a train. I was able to leave at 4 instead of 5 on the days that I went in.
p. 57QDid Mr. Epstein call you or make requests of you outside of work hours?
p. 57AThat happened later with smart phones, yeah. He had no filter. It was -- it became more like 24/7, holidays, uh-huh.
p. 57QWhen did that start?
p. 57AI would say -- I'm just trying to remember -- 2011, '12, '13. I'm just trying to put it in perspective of where I was living. Yeah, around that time period. It progressed over time.
p. 57QSure. So fair to say starting in 2011, 2012, maybe 2013, you were working pretty long hours because Mr. Epstein might reach out to you at any point.
p. 57AYeah. It was just not typical hours.
p. 57QI'd like to ask you a few questions about the offices that you worked in. You said earlier that when you started working for Mr. Epstein you worked at 457 Madison Avenue, correct?
p. 57ACorrect.
p. 57QAnd that was from 2001 to 2009, correct?
p. 57ACorrect.
p. 57QCan you tell us more about how that office was set up?
p. 57ASure. So when you came into the courtyard of the Helmsley Palace, on the left-hand side was what they called the Villard House. So you entered a door there and there was a security guard there and then a small elevator that you took up to go to, I think it was the fourth floor. And that elevator dumped you right into the reception area of the office space. And there was a receptionist desk there. There were two bathrooms. To the left was a large office that had the accountants and the trader and the controller. To the right was Darren Indyke's office and a kitchen. And then as you headed down the corridor, there was another door on the right-hand side that went into the office where Ms. Maxwell sat. Darren and Jeff's assistant, , sat in there. And there were several desks.
p. 58QWhat about Mr. Epstein? Where was he?
p. 58AYeah. So down that same corridor, there was a door -- oh, there was, first of all, Jeff Schantz's office, and then was Mr. Epstein's office.
p. 58QAnd where were you in relationship -- or, excuse me, where were you in relation to Mr. Epstein?
p. 58ARight. So my office was next to his. You had to go down the long corridor, and the door to my office was to the right of the whole office, and then my desk was in the middle. And he had a very, very large office. And he had a door -- you could enter his office from the corridor or there was a door next to my desk that you could enter into his office as well.
p. 58QSo you would have seen people coming in or out of his office.
p. 58AActually, he kept his door closed to my office most of the time. If people came, they entered in that first door to go into his office. He had a setup with a sofa and a fireplace at the front of the office, and then at the back of the office was his desk.
p. 58QWhen you left the offices at 457 Madison, did you go next to 301 East 66th or was that the Lexington office?
p. 58AIt was 301 East 66th.
p. 59QAnd how long were you there?
p. 59AI believe that was two years, two or three years.
p. 59QOkay. So 2009 to 2011 or 2012.
p. 59AI think that's right, yeah.
p. 59QOkay. And then after that you went to the Lexington office?
p. 59ACorrect.
p. 59QAnd how long were you there?
p. 59AThat was from about 2011 to 2013 or so. And that office remained -- the people who were in the office stayed there. I started working from his home around 2013.
p. 59QAnd Mr. Epstein's office in his home was on the second floor, correct?
p. 59AHe had an office on the second floor, uh-huh.
p. 59QWhat floor was the massage room on?
p. 59AI don't know. I didn't go upstairs.
p. 59QYou don't even know what floor it was on?
p. 59AIt could have been -- well, I don't know for sure if it was the third or the fourth or the fifth.
p. 59QAnd where was your office?
p. 59AOn the first floor.
p. 59QSo you would have seen people come in and out of his residence.
p. 59AActually, no. The way my office was situated, you came in the front door and there was a foyer where you walked up about eight, ten steps. And then at the platform at the top there was a door on the left, and that was my office. It was an oval room. And my desk was set in the back of that office, which was actually -- the desk out the window was 71st Street. So you had to come up the steps, make a left into my office, and then come back towards the front of the house, if you will, and my desk was there. So people could come and go that I would not see. Ms. . Because your back was to the window?
p. 60Ms. Groff.That's correct. Mr. . And was there a doorman of any sort?
p. 60Ms. Groff.I would say a butler and the maid. If you call them doormen. I mean, not a doorman, like, as a New York City apartment. Mr. . Sure. I guess a better question is, if a visitor arrived there, who would let them in?
p. 60Ms. Groff.It would be the maid, Lyn, the butler Jojo, or maybe Rich, who was the engineer/security guy.
p. 60Mr. Garcia.Would it be one of those three that would have seen folks that were coming in and out more than anyone else of the three names you just gave us? Or is there anyone else that would know more information about who was let in and out of the residence?
p. 60Ms. Groff.I would say those are the top -- those are the three.
p. 60Mr. Garcia.And we have those three names? Mr. . Yes.
p. 60Mr. Garcia.Thank you. BY MS. :
p. 60QYou said earlier that you have not been to his Palm Beach residence. Is that correct?
p. 60AThat's correct.
p. 60QAnd you have not been to Zorro Ranch, correct?
p. 60ACorrect.
p. 60QDid you ever go to his residence in Ohio?
p. 60ANo.
p. 60QAnd you said you took day trips to Little Saint James. Is that correct?
p. 61ACorrect.
p. 61QAnd you also took a vacation there?
p. 61ANo.
p. 61QNo?
p. 61ANo.
p. 61QOkay. And you and your husband visited his apartment in Paris, correct?
p. 61ACorrect. The guest apartment.
p. 61QOkay. Did you separately ever travel with Mr. Epstein?
p. 61ANo.
p. 61QYou said you'd never been on any of his planes, correct?
p. 61ACorrect. I never traveled on his airplane.
p. 61QDid you ever travel on his helicopter?
p. 61AI did.
p. 61QHow many times?
p. 61AOnce.
p. 61QWhat for?
p. 61ATo go from St. Thomas to his island.
p. 61QApproximately how much do you think that you earned over the course of your employment with Mr. Epstein?
p. 61AI've got to do some math.
p. 61Mr. Whitcomb.You said there would be no math. Couldn't resist.
p. 61Mr. Bachner.Maybe you want to take her year by year, she can just give you maybe her salary?
p. 61Ms. Groff.Can I give you amounts? BY MS. :
p. 62QSure. You said you started making $50,000.
p. 62ARight. And I believe that was for up until 2005. I did get a bonus of $10,000 the first year. I don't recall how much my bonus was the next years. I know after I had my child it went up to $120,000, and that was for -- until 2009. And then it dropped to $108,000. And then it went back up in 2015 to, I don't know, $130,000. I'm guessing. I think maybe it went to as high as $150,000. And then it went down again.
p. 62QWhen did it go down?
p. 62AIn 2017 I think it went down nominally.
p. 62QAs you know, in 2016, Mr. Epstein was charged with solicitation of prostitution and in -- excuse me, in 2006, Mr. Epstein was charged with solicitation of prostitution. In 2008 pleaded guilty to solicitation of prostitution and solicitation of a minor for prostitution, after which he served 13 months in the Palm Beach stockade. We will get into that in more depth later, but I'd like to ask you some questions about what you were aware of in the time that you worked for Mr. Epstein, and I'd like to focus on the time that you spent at 9 East 71st Street. I understand that you didn't see people come in and out, but when you were there, the years that you spent there, did you see minor girls and young women at the property?
p. 62ANo. Minors, no.
p. 62QYoung women?
p. 62AIf you're talking about the assistants, all of age.
p. 62QNot the staff.
p. 62AOh, no, no.
p. 62QSo from 2013 to 2019, the times that you spent at that residence, you never once saw minor girls or young women?
p. 62AThat's correct.
p. 63QYou never observed Mr. Epstein interacting with minor girls or young women?
p. 63ANo.
p. 63Mr. Whitcomb.At the residence? Ms. . At the residence. BY MS. :
p. 63QWhen did you first learn that Mr. Epstein was under investigation by the Palm Beach Police?
p. 63AI believe it was in 2007.
p. 63QWhat was your understanding at the time of why he was being investigated?
p. 63AHe told me he was being blackmailed.
p. 63QWhen did you first learn that he had been arrested and charged with solicitation of prostitution?
p. 63AI think sometime around 2007.
p. 63QWhat was your understanding at the time of exactly what he was accused of doing, of the underlying conduct?
p. 63ACould you say that again? I'm sorry.
p. 63QWhat was your understanding at the time of exactly what he was accused of doing?
p. 63AI believed him. I believed that he was being blackmailed and that it was false and that he totally had me believe that he was -- it was not what they were saying.
p. 63QWhen did you first learn the conduct at issue involved the sexual abuse of minor girls, specifically high school students?
p. 63AWhen did I -- could you say that again?
p. 63QWhen did you first learn that the conduct at issue involved the sexual abuse of minor girls, specifically high school students?
p. 63Mr. Bachner.Could you give a time frame as to when you want? You mean ever learned? Ms. . When did she learn that, yes, in relation to him being arrested and charged.
p. 64Mr. Bachner.I'm sorry, in '07? Ms. . Yeah, correct.
p. 64Ms. Groff.In '07. I believe he told me that he was being charged with solicitation of a minor but that he was being blackmailed. He didn't know that this person was a minor. And that was it, and I believed him. He lied to me. Ms. . Did learning that the conduct at issue, that what he was accused of involved minors, did that concern you at all?
p. 64Mr. Whitcomb.Just objection to the form of the question. Mr. . Counsel, this is a transcribed interview in Congress. There are no rules of evidence here. So please let counsel ask the question.
p. 64Mr. Whitcomb.Okay. I'll take that under advisement, sir. Mr. . Thank you.
p. 64Mr. Bachner.Just for clarity, say minor, not minors.
p. 64Ms. Groff.I was going to say, I didn't ever think that it was plural. I was told it was a minor. So I did not -- I was not -- I was unaware that -- you're making it plural. I was told it was one minor and it was a mistake and that he was being blackmailed. Ms. . So it didn't concern you to learn that the conduct at issue involved --
p. 64Ms. Groff.Well -- Ms. . -- under your belief a minor? It didn't concern you?
p. 64Ms. Groff.Well, I didn't -- I didn't like it, but he -- he was remorseful and said he didn't know and that it was a mistake and he was being blackmailed, and I believed him. BY MR. :
p. 64QIf I can ask, if he is being blackmailed, what is he remorseful for?
p. 64AWell, he didn't know that it was a minor and --
p. 66QDid you have any reservations about continuing to work for Mr. Epstein?
p. 66ANot at that time.
p. 66QIn the following years, you spent a significant amount of time scheduling young women to visit and travel with Mr. Epstein. Given that he had pleaded guilty to conduct involving minors, were you concerned that he was sexually abusing these young women?
p. 66ANo. I never saw anything --
p. 66QThat didn't cross your mind at any point?
p. 66AI never saw anything improper. Everyone who was around, as said, seemed very happy. No one ever seemed to be in duress. And I did not. Mr. . And what was your interpretation of why he pleaded guilty? If he's explaining to you that the underlying allegations were false, why did he plead guilty?
p. 66Ms. Groff.Why did he plead guilty?
p. 66Mr. Bachner.What did he tell you, if he did?
p. 66Mr. Whitcomb.If you know.
p. 66Ms. Groff.He just told me that he was being blackmailed, and that's it. Mr. . And I understand he may have told you that. I guess I'm asking for your opinion. So at some point he tells you that he's being blackmailed. Eventually down the line he pleads guilty to these charges, which you mentioned that you became aware of.
p. 66Ms. Groff.Right. Mr. . In your opinion, or I guess in your mind at the time, how did you square those two things?
p. 66Ms. Groff.I looked around the office and I felt people smarter than me were still there and stayed there. All his contacts and business people, no one left. And I kind of looked at that and thought, wow, if everybody else is staying, and are, as said, I feel like smarter than me, everybody was under the same impression that it was -- he was being blackmailed and it was all a scheme. BY MS. :
p. 67QFor the following individuals, were you ever aware of Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell introducing them to any minor girls or young women for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity? Kimbal Musk?
p. 67ANo.
p. 67QMartin Nowak?
p. 67ANo.
p. 67QRichard Branson?
p. 67ANo.
p. 67QDavid Copperfield?
p. 67ANo.
p. 67QDavid Blaine?
p. 67ANo.
p. 67QLarry Summers?
p. 67ANo.
p. 67QSultan Ahmed bin Sulayem?
p. 67ANo.
p. 67QFrederic Fekkai?
p. 67ANo.
p. 67QPaolo Zampolli?
p. 67AI don't know who that is.
p. 67QPeter Mandelson?
p. 67ANo.
p. 67QStephen Hanson?
p. 68ANo.
p. 68QDuring the time that you worked for Mr. Epstein, what was your understanding of his relationship with Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, former Prince Andrew?
p. 68AUh-huh. Sure. I didn't know what their relationship was. I know they spoke on the phone and visited with each other. But I don't know what their relationship truly was.
p. 68QIs it fair to say they were friends?
p. 68AIt's fair to say that.
p. 68QWere you ever aware of Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell soliciting minor girls or young women to meet Mr. Mountbatten-Windsor?
p. 68ANo.
p. 68QAnd were you ever aware of Mr. Mountbatten-Windsor engaging in sexual activity with any minor girls or young women introduced to him by Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell?
p. 68ANo.
p. 68QWhat was your understanding of Mr. Epstein's relationship with Jean-Luc Brunel?
p. 68AJean-Luc Brunel was an owner of a modeling agency, and I believe that Mr. Epstein was invested in the modeling agency with him. [12:10 p.m.] BY MS. :
p. 69QWere you ever aware of Mr. Brunel engaging in sexual activity with minor girls or young women who were introduced to him by Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell?
p. 69ANo.
p. 69QWere you ever aware of Mr. Epstein engaging in sexual activity with minor girls or young women who were introduced to him by Mr. Brunel?
p. 69ANo.
p. 69QDid you ever arrange travel or visas for any minor girls or young women working for Mr. Brunel's modeling agency?
p. 69ANot that I am aware of. I did not organize visas.
p. 69QDid you ever arrange housing for any minor girls or young women working for Mr. Brunel's modeling agency?
p. 69AIf I was directed to set aside an apartment of Mr. Epstein's for one of Mr. Brunel's models, it's possible, but I did not -- it was not my job to say who was going to stay in an apartment.
p. 69QHow did you learn about Mr. Epstein's relationship with Mr. Brunel?
p. 69AI think Mr. Brunel came to the office, or I connected him on the phone. Just it was -- he was there before me. He was just a friend. I started in 2001. I think they knew each other before that. Mr. . And would you qualify Mr. Epstein's relationship with Mr. Brunel as a friendship?
p. 69Ms. Groff.I think they were friends and business partners. BY MS. :
p. 69QMs. Groff, you've said a number of times that you never met any minor girl who was giving Mr. Epstein a massage, correct?
p. 69ACorrect.
p. 70QAnd you've said that you did not know that any of those girls were, in fact, minors, correct?
p. 70ACorrect.
p. 70QI would like to introduce as Minority Exhibit A a summary of the FBI's November 4th, 2020, interview with a survivor of Mr. Epstein's abuse. The Bates number is EFTA00090339. We have marked the relevant paragraphs for you. [Groff Minority Exhibit A. was marked for identification.] BY MS. :
p. 70QAccording to the summary, the survivor told the FBI that she first started giving Mr. Epstein massages when she was 15 years old. She explained that the massages were pretenses for sexual abuse and said that, quote, "it was pretty obvious Lesley knew what was going on." She also said that you knew she was a minor because she explicitly told you that she was not 18 years old yet, and also that she once told you that she needed money for an abortion. So I'll ask you again, Ms. Groff. Did you ever book massages for Mr. Epstein by a girl you knew was a minor?
p. 70ANo.
p. 70QSo your testimony here today is that what this survivor told the FBI is not true?
p. 70AI feel terrible for this survivor. I'm not saying that what she's thinking that she told someone, but she did not tell me. I think she is mistaken. I know she is mistaken.
p. 70QThe summary said redacted said to Lesley that she could not sign a lease because she was not 18 years old. Also, redacted told Lesley that she could not get an apartment because she was not 18. She explained to the FBI that she had to live in hotels as a result and that you helped her pay for them. Your testimony today is that that's not true?
p. 71AMy testimony today is to say that that is not true. Mr. . Were you ever aware of Mr. Epstein paying for a minor girl or young woman to have an abortion?
p. 71Ms. Groff.No. Ms. . Ms. Groff, I have a few questions for you about -- Mr. . We're going to have some Members ask some questions.
p. 71Ms. Groff.Okay.
p. 71Mr. Khanna.Thank you, Ms. Groff. I want to ask you about several men in Mr. Epstein's orbit, and I want you to answer, for these men, did you ever see, hear, schedule, arrange, or learn of any sexual activity with a minor girl or young woman who was introduced to these men by Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell. First, Les Wexner?
p. 71Ms. Groff.No.
p. 71Mr. Khanna.Never heard, scheduled, arranged, learned of any sexual activity of any young woman by Mr. Wexner?
p. 71Ms. Groff.That's correct. No.
p. 71Mr. Khanna.Alan Dershowitz?
p. 71Ms. Groff.No.
p. 71Mr. Khanna.Glenn Dubin?
p. 71Ms. Groff.No.
p. 71Mr. Khanna.Beyond these names, are there any other men in Mr. Epstein's network who you believe should be investigated for sexually abusing, exploiting, or seeking access to women or girls through Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell?
p. 71Ms. Groff.No.
p. 71Mr. Khanna.Do you believe the First Lady is right that Mr. Epstein did not act alone in the abuse of young women?
p. 72Ms. Groff.I'm sorry. Could you say that -- the First Lady?
p. 72Mr. Khanna.The First Lady, Melania Trump, has said that Mr. Epstein did not act alone. There were other men who were involved in the abuse of young women. Do you agree with her?
p. 72Ms. Groff.I'm sorry. Melania Trump -- could you say it again? I'm sorry.
p. 72Mr. Khanna.Sure. No, I'm not trying to trick you. She just said that Epstein did not act alone in the abuse of young women. Do you agree with that?
p. 72Ms. Groff.I don't know. No. I don't know.
p. 72Mr. Khanna.So you disagree with her? I mean, to your knowledge -- she's saying that he didn't act alone. To your knowledge, did he -- is there a --
p. 72Ms. Groff.To my knowledge --
p. 72Mr. Khanna.He acted alone? There's no one else?
p. 72Ms. Groff.Yeah.
p. 72Mr. Khanna.I mean, it's your testimony under oath that you are aware of no one, other than Maxwell or Epstein, who in any way was involved in the trafficking, abuse, assault, exploitation of young girls?
p. 72Ms. Groff.That is correct.
p. 72Mr. Khanna.Okay.
p. 72Ms. Ansari.Thank you. I would like to start by asking some questions about Les Wexner in particular. How would you describe Mr. Epstein's relationship with Mr. Wexner during your employment with Mr. Epstein?
p. 72Ms. Groff.During my employment, yes, I -- as business. Business. Professional.
p. 72Ms. Ansari.And did their relationship change over time?
p. 72Ms. Groff.I knew that they needed to -- Mr. Wexner was no longer going to be a client of Mr. Epstein's around 2008.
p. 73Ms. Ansari.So you said 2008. I think either 2007 or 2008, we know that Mr. Wexner ended his relationship with Mr. Epstein. Mr. Wexner later said that the reason he did this is because he discovered that Mr. Epstein had stolen several hundred million dollars from him. Prior to 2007, were you aware of Mr. Epstein's efforts to take money from Mr. Wexner without his knowledge?
p. 73Ms. Groff.No.
p. 73Ms. Ansari.And when did you first learn of any allegations that Mr. Epstein was stealing money from Mr. Wexner?
p. 73Ms. Groff.Not until after 2019.
p. 73Ms. Ansari.Okay. So not at all during the 2007, 2008 time period?
p. 73Ms. Groff.No.
p. 73Ms. Ansari.Did you ever talk to Mr. Epstein about Mr. Wexner's claims that Mr. Epstein stole money from him?
p. 73Ms. Groff.No.
p. 73Ms. Ansari.I just want to go back -- thank you for that. I just want to go back to some of the questions about -- that was asking about your knowledge. Of course, 2006, Mr. Epstein was arrested. 2008, he pleaded guilty. He told you it was blackmail. You continued to work for him until 2019. In hindsight -- I understand your testimony, but in hindsight, is there anything that you saw or heard that would give you pause or that should have given you pause?
p. 73Ms. Groff.In hindsight, we all have access to his personal emails, and it's just -- it's awful. It's horrendous. I feel terrible. I wish that someone had come to me and said something. I would have helped them. I would have gone to the authorities. As said, everyone seemed happy to be in his orbit. I actually thought of them as fortunate. I was happy for them that it seemed to me like their lives were going to be better than possibly the direction they were heading.
p. 74Ms. Ansari.And you are speaking specifically to the staff or to the women, girls?
p. 74Ms. Groff.Any of these victims, and especially the traveling assistants who I knew. It breaks my heart. Yeah.
p. 74Ms. Ansari.I think just -- you know, speaking really as a human being, I think it's hard to believe that, after knowing that he was arrested and pleaded guilty to solicitation of a minor, being so closely in his orbit for 10-plus years, there was nothing that you would have seen being so intimately involved that should have given you pause. And I think for us, as we do our investigation and trying to get closer to the truth, it would be as helpful as possible to know if there's anybody else that we should interview or anyone else that you think we should talk to that would have seen or could guide us further to further answers.
p. 74Ms. Groff.I want to be helpful. I did not ever see anything inappropriate. He was a master manipulator and kept me on the outside, and it was -- I can see -- completely on purpose. He lied to me, and I think he lied to everyone, and I think he was an absolute professional at keeping people separated.
p. 74Ms. Ansari.Thank you.
p. 74Mr. Subramanyam.Did you -- we were just talking about scheduling earlier. Did you schedule any meetings with Jeffrey Epstein and other heads of state or high-profile politicians?
p. 74Ms. Groff.Like Bill Clinton, or --
p. 74Mr. Subramanyam.Yeah. Are there any names that come to mind of high-profile politicians that you scheduled meetings with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 74Ms. Groff.Yes. I mean, I know he met with Alan Dershowitz. He met with Larry Summers.
p. 74Mr. Whitcomb.He's asking about politicians.
p. 74Ms. Groff.Was he --
p. 74Mr. Bachner.He's asking about politicians.
p. 75Ms. Groff.Right, but I --
p. 75Mr. Whitcomb.He's asking about politicians.
p. 75Mr. Subramanyam.That counts.
p. 75Ms. Groff.Right.
p. 75Mr. Subramanyam.Keep going.
p. 75Ms. Groff.Let's see. I remember him speaking with Senator Kerry. I remember him speaking with General Wesley Clark. I remember him speaking with -- in politics, George Mitchell. Governor of New Mexico. Sorry. Governor of New Mexico. Let's see. Well, early on, he spoke with Trump, but that was before he became President.
p. 75Mr. Subramanyam.What do you mean he spoke with Trump? Did you set up -- schedule meetings with him and Trump?
p. 75Ms. Groff.I would connect phone calls. That was it.
p. 75Mr. Subramanyam.Was that pretty frequent?
p. 75Ms. Groff.No.
p. 75Mr. Subramanyam.Okay. What about --
p. 75Ms. Groff.I don't know. Do you have any names you want to --
p. 75Mr. Subramanyam.Yeah. What about Prince Andrew? How often did you connect them?
p. 75Ms. Groff.Oh, yes. He spoke with Prince Andrew.
p. 75Mr. Subramanyam.How often?
p. 75Ms. Groff.If Prince Andrew was in town, it would -- you know, let's say it would be the week he was in town. But, after that, if he went back to the U.K., you know, it was infrequent.
p. 75Mr. Subramanyam.What about Ehud Barak, former Prime Minister?
p. 75Ms. Groff.Ehud Barak, yes.
p. 75Mr. Subramanyam.How often would they meet?
p. 75Ms. Groff.Well, same thing. If Ehud was in town -- if Mr. Barak was in town, they would meet for breakfast, lunch, dinner, have appointments. But, when he was out of town, it would be less frequent.
p. 76Mr. Subramanyam.Did you make appointments for any of his assistants or any of the girls around him with other people?
p. 76Ms. Groff.No.
p. 76Mr. Subramanyam.So it was always appointments for Jeffrey Epstein and someone else? It never veered from that?
p. 76Ms. Groff.Correct.
p. 76Mr. Subramanyam.Even -- so what about Ghislaine Maxwell without Jeffrey Epstein, would you ever set anything up?
p. 76Ms. Groff.I didn't set up appointments for Ms. Maxwell.
p. 76Mr. Subramanyam.Did you ever arrange travel for Mr. Epstein and the girls?
p. 76Ms. Groff.His traveling assistants --
p. 76Mr. Subramanyam.Yes.
p. 76Ms. Groff.-- would go with him on his airplane.
p. 76Mr. Subramanyam.Did you arrange -- like, did you handle their passports or view their passports in any way?
p. 76Ms. Groff.No.
p. 76Mr. Subramanyam.So you never saw their passports?
p. 76Ms. Groff.I may have seen a passport -- a picture of a passport, but I never had anything to do with their passports.
p. 76Mr. Subramanyam.With their -- so you didn't arrange their travel, just his travel?
p. 76Ms. Groff.If an assistant needed to meet with him -- say one assistant was going to leave and another assistant was going to come in, then I might make a commercial airline flight for that assistant.
p. 77Mr. Subramanyam.And so you would handle their ID -- is that correct -- for making a commercial airline --
p. 77Ms. Groff.I never had their ID.
p. 77Mr. Subramanyam.You never handled IDs? Would you ever --
p. 77Ms. Groff.No.
p. 77Mr. Subramanyam.-- have to insert their birth date?
p. 77Ms. Groff.Insert their birth date? Sure.
p. 77Mr. Subramanyam.So you knew their ages --
p. 77Ms. Groff.Well, I --
p. 77Mr. Subramanyam.-- of any of the girls that --
p. 77Ms. Groff.Yeah. I would know it at the time, sure.
p. 77Mr. Subramanyam.Okay. Were any of them under 18?
p. 77Ms. Groff.No.
p. 77Mr. Subramanyam.Okay. So everyone that -- where you handled their information was over 18?
p. 77Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 77Mr. Subramanyam.Okay. Great. And then do you know who -- you must have known who Barbro Ehnbom was. Is that correct?
p. 77Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 77Mr. Subramanyam.And do you know what I'm referring to when I say the BBB girls?
p. 77Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 77Mr. Subramanyam.What is your understanding of that?
p. 77Ms. Groff.They were Barbro's Best and Brightest. I think that's what the BBB stood for. They were from the Stockholm School of Economics, and they were, you know, very bright women that -- I think it was a social group or a mentoring group of hers.
p. 78Mr. Subramanyam.Are you aware of any -- and it looks like my time is up. I'll move on to the next questioner.
p. 78Ms. Stansbury.Hi.
p. 78Ms. Groff.Hi.
p. 78Ms. Stansbury.Thank you so much for coming in. We appreciate it. I'm Melanie Stansbury. I represent New Mexico. And as you are probably aware, New Mexico has passed a bipartisan Truth Commission that is trying to piece together the story of Zorro Ranch, what happened there, to understand the abuse of both people who were brought to the ranch as well as locals who were recruited for massages. And it's completely a bipartisan effort, and really, our effort is to really get to the heart of it. And so, I see on various flight records that you visited Zorro Ranch. Did you travel -- you did not?
p. 78Ms. Groff.I never went to Zorro Ranch.
p. 78Ms. Stansbury.Okay. I'm sorry. I thought that you had.
p. 78Ms. Groff.No.
p. 78Ms. Stansbury.Did you schedule massages for Mr. Epstein while he was at Zorro Ranch?
p. 78Ms. Groff.It's possible. Nothing comes to mind, but it's possible.
p. 78Ms. Stansbury.Given that you were -- you had eyes on his schedule and were arranging various activities for him while he was traveling, are there prominent New Mexico figures or people associated with New Mexico -- other than the Governor who you already mentioned -- that you scheduled appointments for, that you were aware he was hanging out with?
p. 78Ms. Groff.No. I don't recall anybody except for the Governor.
p. 78Ms. Stansbury.So what was your understanding of why he was going to New Mexico?
p. 78Ms. Groff.That was kind of like vacation time for him. He didn't go very often.
p. 78Ms. Stansbury.About how often would you say he went?
p. 79Ms. Groff.Once a year maybe. It was his least visited location.
p. 79Ms. Stansbury.So did you not schedule appointments and meetings and massages for him while he was there?
p. 79Ms. Groff.I would, but I would say that it became a lot less. I think it was more like vacation, if you will.
p. 79Ms. Stansbury.So who was the scheduler during that time?
p. 79Ms. Groff.It would be whatever -- whoever traveling assistant --
p. 79Ms. Stansbury.Okay.
p. 79Ms. Groff.-- would be there that was on premise. And he had a full staff there and ranch hands -- not that the ranch hands were scheduling appointments -- but he did have a staff that lived there, I believe, year round. It was -- yeah. It was just not a place that he went to very often that I could see.
p. 79Ms. Stansbury.Okay. In terms of scheduling massages, in the earlier part of the interview today, you said -- or as I heard you say -- that you scheduled massages often on a daily basis for Mr. Epstein, and you also said in your earlier statement that you also scheduled massages for others. Can you tell us some of the people you scheduled massages for other than Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 79Ms. Groff.Yes. Sure. I recall Kathy Ruemmler. He would -- he liked to give spa gift cards as gifts, and I know that he gave her a spa gift card or treatments and -- just to help her out. I think she was very busy.
p. 79Ms. Stansbury.Can you pull up some more names? Because we have limited time here.
p. 79Ms. Groff.She's the only one that comes off that I recall.
p. 79Ms. Stansbury.Did you ever schedule massages for men?
p. 79Ms. Groff.It's possible that -- I don't recall what man I would ever schedule a massage for.
p. 79Ms. Stansbury.Okay. Moving on to your remuneration for your employment with Mr. Epstein, there's email correspondence in the files that DOJ released that indicate that at least once, if not multiple times in your employment, you were paid through a loan that you arranged with Richard Kahn, and it actually says in the correspondence that it was forgivable upon his death.
p. 80Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 80Ms. Stansbury.Have you received any lump sums or loans, and can you tell us the total amount of money you received from Jeffrey Epstein or his estate?
p. 80Ms. Groff.So, in 2016, I believe that my salary did change to a loan plus a small paycheck, and the loan -- I just was told it was a new structure of how the -- my salary would be -- would now be. And, in 2016, it was $100,000, and I believe it was the same for 2017, 2018. And then in 2019, it was 110-. But, as that happened, the salary portion became less.
p. 80Ms. Stansbury.But did you receive any other large lump sums outside your salary?
p. 80Ms. Groff.No, except for maybe a bonus -- the $10,000 bonus that I mentioned in 2005, and it's possible I got some bonuses. But I think that $10,000 was the biggest one I ever received.
p. 80Ms. Stansbury.Have you received any money from his estate after his death?
p. 80Ms. Groff.From his estate after his death? Yes. When I retained my attorneys, he had set up a -- some sort of fund to pay attorneys' bills. The minute he died, that ceased to exist anymore. I don't recall how --
p. 80Ms. Stansbury.How much money did you receive from the estate?
p. 80Ms. Groff.Yeah. I don't recall. My attorneys would submit the invoices to the estate.
p. 80Ms. Stansbury.Did you receive any other money aside from attorneys' fees from the estate?
p. 80Ms. Groff.Recently, I --
p. 80Mr. Whitcomb.She said aside from attorneys' fees.
p. 80Ms. Groff.Aside from the attorneys' fees?
p. 80Mr. Whitcomb.I think so.
p. 80Ms. Stansbury.I would like to hear the rest of your answer. Go ahead.
p. 80Ms. Groff.Yeah. Aside from the attorneys' fees -- oh, no. No.
p. 81Ms. Stansbury.Okay. And then I have one final question, which is -- you were named as a coconspirator in DOJ's investigation of this case. Beyond the original non-prosecution agreement, your name appears multiple times from 2019 through Maxwell's prosecution. Did you receive any sort of plea deal agreement? Were you investigated by DOJ? What is the status of DOJ's investigation of you?
p. 81Ms. Groff.There is no plea deal. I did sit with them voluntarily and answered all their questions, and they deemed me not guilty of being a coconspirator.
p. 81Ms. Stansbury.Was that put in writing somewhere?
p. 81Ms. Groff.I believe we asked them to do that, but they said that's not something they do.
p. 81Ms. Stansbury.Well, if you are able to provide any correspondence to the committee, that would be very helpful. Thank you. Appreciate it.
p. 81Mr. Lynch.Okay. Ms. Groff, thank you for your willingness to be interviewed. You said early in the Republican hour that your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein -- you really didn't have a relationship. You wouldn't call it a relationship. And you said in this hour that he basically kept you on the outside and you didn't have a connection with him. I want to refer to a New York Times article on February 5th, 2005. If co-counsel wants copies of that, I made some.
p. 81Mr. Whitcomb.Is the word "brain" in there?
p. 81Mr. Lynch.Sorry? There are some others here if staff wants them. Mr. . And, sir, if you will hold on. We will enter this as Minority Exhibit B. [Groff Minority Exhibit B. was marked for identification.]
p. 81Mr. Lynch.This is a New York Times article, February 5th, 2005, by Landon Thomas Jr., and it sounds like they interviewed both you and Jeffrey Epstein in this article. I'll just go to the bottom paragraph which is highlighted. This is an article, the title of which is "Working for Top Bosses on Wall Street Has Its Perks." When it comes to discussing Jeffrey Epstein, it says, "Then there is the case of Jeffrey Epstein who pays his three executive assistants more than $200,000 a year." It goes on to say, "A financier who" -- they manage a -- his executive -- "his three-woman executive team, which manages his hectic life of globe-trotting and hobnobbing with the likes of former President Clinton." It goes on on the next page and it says, "He calls them" -- meaning his -- you, as part of his executive team -- "a 'social prosthesis'" -- so something attached, a limb of who he is -- "with an intuitive knowledge of his manifold needs and a 24-hour presence that makes them virtually indispensable to his personal and business success." He said -- it goes on to say -- again, referring to you and the other two assistants -- "'They are an extension of my brain,' said Mr. Epstein, who rarely talks publicly. 'Their intuition is something that I don't have.'" It goes with more -- some details. Then it goes on to say -- the reporter says, "When one of them, Lesley Groff, who is 38, became pregnant last year and talked of leaving, he bought her a Mercedes-Benz E320 to make her commuting easier and agreed to pay for a full-time nanny so that she could keep working for him." And there's a quote here by Mr. Epstein. "'There is no way I could lose Lesley to motherhood,' said Mr. Epstein, who is in his early 50s and is a bachelor." Going further to the -- just the last page. The last page, the third paragraph from the bottom. I'm sorry. Let's go to the last two lines here -- the last two paragraphs. "Ms. Groff said that she thought both she and Ms. Lee" -- one of the other executive assistants -- "were worth the price." Here's the quote. This is from you. "'It comes down to the bond,' said Ms. Groff, a graduate of the University of Texas who has been with Mr. Epstein for 4 years." A further quote by you: "'I know what he is thinking and I know when I need to be fast. It's a nice roll we are on.'" Now, that's what the reporter said that you said. Have you ever requested a redaction or recanted any of this that was printed in The New York Times?
p. 83Ms. Groff.No.
p. 83Mr. Lynch.You haven't disputed that?
p. 83Ms. Groff.No.
p. 83Mr. Lynch.It makes it hard to believe that there's no -- there's no connection when he's talking about you as part of him and a prosthesis and, you know, part of his operation. And how long did you work with Mr. Epstein, beginning to end?
p. 83Ms. Groff.February of 2001 to July of 2019.
p. 83Mr. Lynch.So 18 years. Is that correct?
p. 83Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 83Mr. Lynch.Yeah. It's hard to believe that somebody who worked with somebody for 18 years and then say they don't have a relationship, especially when we have earlier statements. Let me also ask -- now, when you went to work for Mr. Epstein, he was a registered sex offender. Isn't that correct?
p. 83Ms. Groff.That was after I started working for him that he became a registered sex offender.
p. 83Mr. Lynch.Yeah. Stuff going on, and then he was -- his conviction became final. He did -- he did, what, 13 months in prison?
p. 83Ms. Groff.Correct.
p. 83Mr. Lynch.And you were responsible for making sure that he lived up to his restrictions as a sex offender, correct? He had reporting travel requirements. He had no-contact requirements. So when you -- you actually sort of made sure that he was compliant with his status as a registered sex offender, so --
p. 83Ms. Groff.No, I did not. I was not the one in charge of making sure. I did remind him that he needed to register when it was that time of year. That was per his directive to remind him, but I had nothing to do --
p. 84Mr. Lynch.It says here that you dealt with several tasks related to his status as a sex offender. Those included sending reminders to update his registration status and photograph and attempting to get him a Russian visa despite his status as an offender.
p. 84Ms. Groff.All I did was remind him when it was time for him to get --
p. 84Mr. Lynch.But your earlier statement that --
p. 84Mr. Whitcomb.Sir, can you just let her finish her response, please? She has tried a couple times to respond to your question and she hasn't been able to finish it.
p. 84Mr. Lynch.Okay. Have at it. All right.
p. 84Ms. Groff.All I did was remind him on his schedule that he was supposed to go and register if he was in Palm Beach. I think that was the standard. And I was directed by him to include that on his schedule. I did not make any appointments for him to go to register. He did that on his own if he went to Palm Beach. I believe it was once a year. And I was told to remind him 3 months ahead of time, 2 months ahead of time, and then after that, every other week or something like that. It was -- but that was all I did.
p. 84Mr. Lynch.You realize, however, that having knowledge of that certainly is not consistent with your earlier statement that there was a vague awareness on your part about what Mr. Epstein was charged with and what his status was, what he was guilty of, at the same time that you were scheduling massages for young women with a registered sex offender, and yet, you maintain that you didn't see anything improper in that. And you've said that multiple times, sending young women to give a massage to a registered sex offender, and you -- yet, you tell the committee and you've told others that you saw nothing improper with that. I just find it just -- it hurts your credibility.
p. 84Mr. Bachner.With all due respect, the record will speak for what she said. I don't believe that that's an accurate characterization of what she said, but go ahead.
p. 85Mr. Lynch.Okay.
p. 85Mr. Whitcomb.And it's also -- please just bear -- hear me out. She's here as a witness. She's not an attorney like me and you, sir, and she's not -- she's not familiar with all the legal jargon and all the legalese regarding a guilty plea. So that should respectfully be borne in mind.
p. 85Mr. Lynch.Well, I appreciate that, but she is a witness.
p. 85Mr. Whitcomb.Sure.
p. 85Mr. Lynch.And she's at the hub of this -- at the very hub of this. She has contact with all of the people, all of the victims, the high-powered people. She's at the hub of all of this. She's a very important witness. And we are trying to get the truth -- get at the truth on behalf of all these victims who I think we agree we feel deeply for. And so that's the mission here. I'm over my time, and so I have to relinquish it until we do another hour, but thank you. I yield.
p. 85Mr. Garcia.Just real briefly. We're going to continue this questioning in the next hour, but just -- Ms. Groff, it's been reported by Wall Street Journal that Mar-a-Lago was sending spa employees -- usually young women -- to Epstein's Palm Beach home to provide massages. We know that Ghislaine Maxwell was accused of recruiting and trafficking survivors as well. Do you recall any of this when you were working -- employed by Mr. Epstein?
p. 85Ms. Groff.No.
p. 85Mr. Garcia.So did you ever schedule any appointments for Mar-a-Lago or through Mar-a-Lago for Mar-a-Lago employees to come to Epstein's home and provide any sort of spa services?
p. 85Ms. Groff.No.
p. 85Mr. Garcia.So, as far as your work is considered through The Wall Street Journal -- we've seen The Wall Street Journal reporting that there was actually women being brought in from Mar-a-Lago. That's something that you had no interaction with and never heard about, correct?
p. 86Ms. Groff.That is correct.
p. 86Mr. Garcia.Is there anyone that you think would have information about who was actually connecting these women from Mar-a-Lago to Mr. Epstein?
p. 86Ms. Groff.I don't know.
p. 86Mr. Garcia.So you wouldn't have any -- could you maybe think -- who would be a person or two that would be making these connections? Do you have any idea?
p. 86Ms. Groff.I would think Ms. Maxwell was with him in Palm Beach, but I don't know that for sure. I don't know.
p. 86Mr. Garcia.We'll have additional questions on that later. Ms. . That's it for now, and we'll go off the record. [Discussion off the record.]
p. 86Ms. Tolan.We'll go back on the record.
p. 86QI'm just going to ask a few clarifying questions that focus on what we asked you during our first round. So, to begin with, we discussed the physical phone directories with the list and the names, and then you also mentioned that there was an electronic version of that. Is that correct?
p. 86ACorrect.
p. 86QAnd I believe I asked you already, but you don't know the platform or the database that that --
p. 86AI don't.
p. 86Q-- electronic one was stored on? Does Citrix sound familiar to you?
p. 86AIt does now --
p. 86QYes.
p. 87A-- because I heard Sarah say that.
p. 87QOkay. And do you know -- does that ring a bell? Is that what it was stored on?
p. 87AI don't -- I don't know.
p. 87QOkay. And do you know where the backup information for those directories were stored?
p. 87AI don't know.
p. 87QOkay. And then, in the previous hour, you also mentioned, I believe, but who prepared the rooms for the massages at the New York residence?
p. 87AI don't know. I would think a maid would be responsible for cleaning, but I don't know. I wasn't there.
p. 87QDo you know who set up the room in order to be ready for the massage to occur?
p. 87ANo.
p. 87QAnd I believe you mentioned individuals who would let the masseuses into the property. Who did you say did that?
p. 87AThe people that answered the doors --
p. 87QYes.
p. 87A-- door -- would be the maid, Lyn Fontanilla, or her husband, Jojo, who was his driver, or possibly -- it was really those two, but possibly, it could be Rich Barnett, or I think you could also buzz somebody in like a New York apartment type of thing.
p. 87QAnd so those individuals would have let the masseuses into the property?
p. 87ACorrect.
p. 87QDid you, on any occasion, ever let any of them in?
p. 87ANo.
p. 87QDid you ever buzz any of them in, like you just mentioned?
p. 87AI don't even know how to do that.
p. 88QDid you ever have discussions with any of these individuals about the women they were seeing coming in and out of the property?
p. 88ANo.
p. 88QAnd then I believe you briefly covered this as well, but did you ever pay money or cash to any of the masseuses?
p. 88AI never directly paid anyone. It is possible that Mr. Epstein may have directed me to ask in the accounting department to put $200 in an envelope to have picked up and messengered over to someone who had done some sort of job for Mr. Epstein, and that was either picked up by a messenger or Jojo.
p. 88Mr. Timmons.Did you ever see a black bag of cash?
p. 88Ms. Groff.A black bag --
p. 88Mr. Timmons.A black bag that had cash in it?
p. 88Ms. Groff.No.
p. 88Mr. Timmons.You never saw that?
p. 88Ms. Groff.No.
p. 88QAnd the messenger -- did you know who the messenger was, or was it a --
p. 88AIt was a messenger service. I don't recall who the messenger service was. That was a long time ago.
p. 88QWas the same messenger service always used?
p. 88AProbably. I mean, there might have been a couple. I don't recall.
p. 88QDid you ever meet with any of the messengers?
p. 88ANo.
p. 88QDid you ever have any conversation with them?
p. 88ANo.
p. 89QAnd why was cash given to these masseuses?
p. 89AI just figured that's the way people get paid.
p. 89QAnd, I guess, more clarification. Why cash as opposed to checks or any other form of payment?
p. 89AI don't know.
p. 89QAnd was Ghislaine Maxwell ever present in the room when Mr. Epstein was receiving a massage?
p. 89AI don't know.
p. 89QDid Ms. Maxwell ever instruct any woman or girl on how to give Mr. Epstein a massage?
p. 89AI don't know.
p. 89QWas anyone else ever present in the room when Mr. Epstein was receiving a massage?
p. 89AI don't know.
p. 89QAs you testified to earlier, you began working for Mr. Epstein in 2001. In 2008, he pleaded guilty to two felony counts of soliciting and procuring a minor for prostitution. We will get into the details of the investigation much more later, but the investigation into him began in 2005 while you were still working for Mr. Epstein. When did you first learn about the investigation?
p. 89AI believe it was in 2007.
p. 89QAnd how did you learn?
p. 89ABecause the FBI came to my door in Connecticut and handed me -- to serve me a subpoena.
p. 89QAnd did you speak with them? Did you give testimony to them then?
p. 89AI let them into my house and sat with them on my sofa, and they started asking me some questions. And, yeah, that was it. That's how I found out.
p. 89QWhat questions did they ask you?
p. 89AIt was so long ago. I think they just asked if -- you know, they said they were here -- they were very friendly. They just said, you know, we're here because we understand you work for Mr. Epstein as a secretary, and we just want to talk to you. I really don't remember what they said. I think my head was probably spinning. I had no idea.
p. 90QWho did you speak to next?
p. 90AMy son who was with me because he had just gotten up from a nap. He was only about 2.5 or 3 years old. And I didn't really know what to do, so I went upstairs and I called Darren Indyke, who is the in-house counsel, to just say people are here. I don't -- you know, I don't know what to do. And he said you should not speak to them without an attorney, and I've watched enough TV to know, okay. And so I went downstairs and said I don't think I should be speaking to you without an attorney present. And they didn't really like that, and then they left.
p. 90QDid you, in fact, retain an attorney?
p. 90AI did not retain an attorney myself. Mr. Epstein got me an attorney, and I went and spoke to him once.
p. 90QWhen you spoke to Mr. Indyke, did he seem privy to the investigation?
p. 90ANo.
p. 90QIt was news to him?
p. 90AIt sounded like news to him, yeah.
p. 90QDid anyone ever instruct you -- besides without having an attorney -- but did anyone generally instruct you not to talk to the FBI?
p. 90ANo.
p. 90QAnd at what point did the massages stop occurring for Mr. Epstein?
p. 90AWhen he went to jail.
p. 91QIn July 2006?
p. 91ADid he -- no, he went to jail -- when did he go to jail? 2009? 2008? Yeah.
p. 91Ms. Brignac.Did the massages stop occurring at that time?
p. 91Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 91Ms. Tolan.Did they resume at any point after he was released from jail?
p. 91Ms. Groff.No.
p. 91Mr. Emmer.What was your understanding of why the massages stopped at that point?
p. 91Ms. Groff.He never said. There was no reason. They just stopped.
p. 91Mr. Timmons.When he was on work release, did he not get massages when he was out of jail temporarily?
p. 91Ms. Groff.No.
p. 91Ms. Brignac.I'm sorry. Ms. Groff, you said they never resumed?
p. 91Ms. Groff.They did not resume after he got back or when he came -- got out of jail.
p. 91Ms. Brignac.You never booked a massage for Mr. Epstein once he was released from prison?
p. 91Ms. Groff.It's possible that there was a massage at a spa in Palm Beach. Dawn Wick, that we discussed earlier -- they had the medical chiropractic care spa, and I think that might have been one time. I think he bought, like, a package of 10 for a nutritionist. They were nutritionists and chiropractic care, and Dawn was also a registered masseuse.
p. 91Mr. Timmons.So, in 2013, when you moved into the residence and your office was there, he never had you book a massage for him until he died in 2019?
p. 91Ms. Groff.That's correct.
p. 91Ms. Brignac.But he did continue to receive massages, correct? Did someone else book them?
p. 91Ms. Groff.Not that I know of. I don't know that massages were being booked or made.
p. 91Ms. Brignac.Why would the massages need to cease if that was a regular part of his day and he said he was not, in fact, guilty in 2006?
p. 92Ms. Groff.I don't know. He also stopped drinking tea.
p. 92Mr. Whitcomb.You answered the question.
p. 92Ms. Groff.Yeah.
p. 92Mr. Whitcomb.You answered the question.
p. 92Ms. Groff.I don't know. Yeah.
p. 92Ms. Brignac.Did you find it odd that that was a regular part of your practice to schedule his massages and it suddenly stopped?
p. 92Ms. Groff.No.
p. 92QAnd now we're just going to ask a few general questions about your role and get into some more details about it. Did you have to sign a nondisclosure agreement upon being hired as Mr. Epstein's secretary?
p. 92AYes.
p. 92QWhat were the details of this agreement?
p. 92AThe -- what I recall is that I was not supposed to discuss any of Mr. Epstein's clients with anyone, and if I did so, it would be a $100,000 fee.
p. 92QAnd you understood this to mean his business clients who he managed money for?
p. 92ACorrect.
p. 92QAnd how did you know -- I know we discussed earlier your knowledge of who clients were, but how did you know who was a client at the time?
p. 92AI believe that NDA might have specifically even said Les Wexner and then clients and clients.
p. 92QBut at the time, you would have understood who fell into that category?
p. 92ASure. His clients. His wealthy clients. Uh-huh.
p. 93QDid you keep a copy of this agreement?
p. 93AI did not.
p. 93QDid all employees of Mr. Epstein have to sign this agreement?
p. 93AI don't know.
p. 93QDid Mr. Epstein himself ask you to sign this agreement?
p. 93ANo. It was part of the onboarding. It was probably , is my bet.
p. 93QAnd you mentioned previously, but can you explain again where you maintained office space while working for him?
p. 93ASure. So, from 2001 to 2009, it was part of the Helmsley Palace, part of the Villard House, and I was located in the rear of the suite directly back from the receptionist desk. There was a door to my office and then my desk sitting -- if you looked outside the window, you could see St. Patrick's Cathedral.
p. 93QAnd where did you move to in 2009?
p. 93AIn 2009, we moved to 301 East 66th Street.
p. 93QAnd how long were you in that office space?
p. 93AI believe it was 2 or 3 years.
p. 93QWhy did you get moved to that office space?
p. 93AWe were told that the premier location at the Helmsley Palace was a very expensive location, and since Mr. Epstein wasn't going to be there anymore, that we needed to -- we were downsizing and needed to find other space. I don't know why it became 301 East 66th.
p. 93QDid you ever work out of the 457 Madison Avenue building?
p. 93AThat was the Helmsley Palace, yes.
p. 93QOkay. Did you ever --
p. 93Mr. Timmons.Real quick, can I get back to something? Sorry. So it's my understanding that Epstein had a massage every day for his entire life, but after he got out of jail, you never booked a massage therapist. Did you book the eight assistants for an hour and it just say name, hour, or what -- he was getting massages, so, like -- and you were in charge of his schedule, so what was going on that -- I mean, did you book a , 10:00 a.m. for an hour, or --
p. 94Ms. Groff.No.
p. 94Mr. Timmons.No?
p. 94Ms. Groff.No.
p. 94Mr. Timmons.Okay. He got a massage every day for his entire life. So when -- after 2010, when he got out of jail, when did he -- when did that happen? I mean, if you knew his schedule --
p. 94Ms. Groff.When did it stop?
p. 94Mr. Timmons.He was getting them. The question is who was giving them to him if you were not coordinating it. So how did -- was there not a --
p. 94Mr. Whitcomb.Was there someone else coordinating?
p. 94Mr. Timmons.Was there a logical spot in his schedule on a regular basis that used to have a massage that now had something else? A pattern?
p. 94Mr. Bachner.Maybe if you ask -- I don't -- if we ask her if she knew he was getting massages. I mean --
p. 94Mr. Timmons.Okay.
p. 94Ms. Groff.Yeah.
p. 94Mr. Timmons.Was there a pattern in the schedule that would suggest that there was a moment in his day on a regular basis that he was getting a massage since you stopped scheduling them?
p. 94Ms. Groff.No.
p. 94Mr. Timmons.Okay. Sorry.
p. 95QAnd then just a few more office questions. Did you ever work out of the Palm Beach home?
p. 95ANo.
p. 95QDid you -- and you did maintain an office space in the Manhattan town home later on?
p. 95ALater on, yes.
p. 95QAnd, aside from scheduling massages, can you describe your other roles and responsibilities as Mr. Epstein's secretary?
p. 95ASure. I scheduled his business meetings. I scheduled breakfasts, lunches, dinners. If he was going to have a party, I might coordinate with that. I coordinated with his staff at all the homes. On his island, I coordinated with his pilots. I would sometimes coordinate trips to, say, a TED conference. I would -- the call list was, as I said, very extensive. He would make calls every day. And, yeah.
p. 95QAnd also, aside from the massages, did you ever spend money or provide cash on behalf of Mr. Epstein during your time as his secretary to anyone?
p. 95ANo.
p. 95QDid you ever help order or purchase gifts for anyone on behalf of Mr. Epstein?
p. 95ANo.
p. 95QAnd I'm just going to answer some more clarifying questions about purchasing gifts.
p. 95Mr. Bachner.Could I have one word with her?
p. 95Ms. Tolan.Yes. [Discussion off the record.]
p. 95Ms. Groff.Yes. Okay. I was going to say -- sorry. After you asked that, there -- I would say that I definitely coordinated about 40 people to receive Apple Watches. And, you know, I might be asked to buy that gift card for Kathy Ruemmler to a spa, something like that.
p. 96QWhat were the Apple Watches for?
p. 96AI think they were Christmas gifts. Holiday gifts. And that was about -- there was a list of about 40 people, men and women, high-profile people on there, and Mr. Epstein just wanted to give everybody a watch for Christmas.
p. 96QDo you recall any of the names of people who received the watches?
p. 96AI do. I was one of them. Steve Bannon was one of them. Jojo and Lyn, I believe, were on there. I don't recall who else. If you show me a list, I -- you know.
p. 96QThat's okay.
p. 96AYeah.
p. 96QWhat year was that?
p. 96AI think that was 2018.
p. 96QAnd did you ever purchase any gifts for any of Mr. Epstein's assistants?
p. 96AI don't think so, no.
p. 96QDid you purchase gifts for any other women associated with Mr. Epstein?
p. 96AI know Kathy Ruemmler got a gift card. At Christmastime, I recall getting Leon Black's assistant -- I think she got a spa gift card.
p. 96QDid you ever purchase lingerie for women associated with Mr. Epstein?
p. 96ANo.
p. 96QWhat about flowers?
p. 96AKathy Ruemmler might have received flowers.
p. 96QWhat about chocolates?
p. 96ANot that I recall.
p. 96QWhat was his relationship with Kathy Ruemmler?
p. 96ABusiness. Yes. They were -- from what I could tell, it was a business relationship. Uh-huh.
p. 97QIt seemed like a business relationship after he was sending flowers and spa appointments?
p. 97AI think that he thought of her as very professional, and he was generous. And I think he found her -- she was very busy and probably enjoyed some flowers on her birthday or a spa gift card. I --
p. 97QWas there any office gossip about their relationship?
p. 97ANo.
p. 97QDid you hear any rumors about their relationship?
p. 97ANo.
p. 97Mr. Emmer.What was her job during this period?
p. 97Ms. Groff.She was an attorney --
p. 97Mr. Emmer.Do you know --
p. 97Ms. Groff.-- I believe, for -- I don't know exactly, but I knew her to be an attorney.
p. 97Ms. Tolan.And you said Mr. Epstein knew her. Their relationship was strictly business. What kind of business were they engaging in together, or can you elaborate on --
p. 97Ms. Groff.I don't know. He did not talk to me about that.
p. 97Mr. Bachner.Can I ask her one quick question? [Discussion off the record.]
p. 97Mr. Bachner.Thank you. I'm sorry.
p. 97Ms. Tolan.No worries.
p. 97Ms. Groff.Okay.
p. 97Ms. Brignac.And you had access to Mr. Epstein's personal email accounts. Did you see any conversation about Ms. Ruemmler's job position?
p. 97Ms. Groff.I did not have access to his personal email account. I mean, I would email him, but I didn't see his emails.
p. 98Ms. Brignac.Were you cc'd on any emails that referenced Ruemmler's profession?
p. 98Ms. Groff.I don't recall.
p. 98Mr. Emmer.In relation to Ruemmler, the committee is interested in how Mr. Epstein may have surrounded himself with influential individuals to curry favor. Did you understand Ruemmler to be an individual that was working at the White House during the period that you had been scheduling their meetings?
p. 98Ms. Groff.I thought she worked at the White House prior to meeting Mr. Epstein.
p. 98Mr. Emmer.Thank you.
p. 98QA few more questions on gifts generally. Did you ever facilitate payment for school tuition for any woman or girl associated with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 98AI did not facilitate payment.
p. 98QDid you purchase, order, or, in any way, help procure gifts for any of the following individuals: Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 98ANo.
p. 98QLeon Black?
p. 98ANo.
p. 98QDoug Band?
p. 98ANo.
p. 98QBill Gates?
p. 98ANo.
p. 98QAnd, as we have mentioned, part of this committee's investigation is trying to understand how Mr. Epstein sought to curry favor with prominent individuals. Are there any other prominent individuals that Mr. Epstein would send expensive or frequent gifts to?
p. 99AIn the government?
p. 99QJust any -- any prominent individual.
p. 99AThere was a time period when he and Tommy Mottola used to send each other gifts, but that's all I can remember.
p. 99QAnd do you -- what kind of gifts?
p. 99AI don't -- maybe a four-wheeler. I don't really remember. I just know -- I felt like they were trying to give each other -- outdo one another with a better gift at one time.
p. 99QDid you have a work credit card?
p. 99ANo.
p. 99QDid you ever use your personal credit card for making purchases --
p. 99ANo.
p. 99Q-- related to your job?
p. 99Ms. Brignac.Were you reimbursed for purchases?
p. 99Ms. Groff.No.
p. 99Ms. Brignac.You were expected to cover your own travel and expenses related to your position?
p. 99Ms. Groff.If it was -- I barely traveled. But no, if I did travel, that would be reimbursed. Sorry.
p. 99Mr. Bachner.Can I have one more word?
p. 99Ms. Groff.Yeah. [Discussion off the record.]
p. 99Mr. Bachner.Thank you. [1:23 p.m.]
p. 100QIn your role did you ever coordinate or facilitate trips for foreign women or girls?
p. 100AI would coordinate airfare for women and men to see Mr. Epstein.
p. 100QCould you walk me through that process?
p. 100ASure. Mr. Epstein would direct me to give me a name and ask me to coordinate a flight for someone to wherever it was that they needed to fly from to go visit him.
p. 100QWhy?
p. 100AHe did not tell me that.
p. 100QDid you ever ask?
p. 100ANo.
p. 100QDid you ever identify, recruit, screen, interview, or recommend any foreign women or girls for meetings or employment with Mr. Epstein or his associates?
p. 100ANo.
p. 100QDid you ever assist anyone else to recruit a foreign woman or girl?
p. 100ANo.
p. 100QHow were these women identified that you did assist in coordinating travel for?
p. 100AI don't know.
p. 100QWho provided their names and contact information?
p. 100AMr. Epstein.
p. 100QWho made the final determination on whether a young woman or girl received visa sponsorship?
p. 100AI don't know.
p. 100QDo you have any role in a visa sponsorship process?
p. 100ANo.
p. 101Mr. Timmons.Can I back up?
p. 101Ms. Groff.Uh-huh.
p. 101Mr. Timmons.She asked you a question if you ever coordinated the introduction of any foreign nationals, and you said no.
p. 101Ms. Groff.The introduction of --
p. 101Mr. Timmons.What was the question? Ask the question --
p. 101Ms. Groff.-- foreign nationals?
p. 101Ms. Brignac.Have you ever participated in visa sponsorship for a foreign woman or girl?
p. 101Mr. Timmons.Did you ever identify, recruit, screen, or recommend foreign women or girls for employment, travel, or meetings with Mr. Epstein or his associates?
p. 101Ms. Groff.No.
p. 101Mr. Timmons.Were you ever involved in that process?
p. 101Ms. Groff.No.
p. 101Mr. Timmons.On May 1st of 2012, you're e-mailing back and forth regarding a girl from Ukraine. "Darling, here's a picture of the new girl. She's 21, very sweet and lovely. Let me know when you receive them, please. I took them from her portfolio. Maybe the quality is not so good, but I think you can still see everything." So you have a person -- their names are redacted here, and I'm not going to use their name. But the person in Eastern Europe that is communicating with you, not with Mr. Epstein, and providing photos of a girl. And it kind of seems that this is -- I mean, there's a 19-year-old, and a there's a 21-year-old. So how do you reconcile the email? I mean, we can get a printout for you. That seems like that's what you're doing.
p. 101Ms. Groff.No.
p. 101Mr. Timmons.So what's the purpose of that communication?
p. 102Ms. Groff.I -- I don't recall what the purpose was. To me, it sounds like this was models or possibly -- I don't know.
p. 102Mr. Timmons.Okay. I saw it on the document. We'll get it printed.
p. 102Ms. Tolan.And, to follow up on that point, I will now introduce majority exhibit 2. [Groff Majority Exhibit No. 2. was marked for identification.]
p. 102Ms. Tolan.We'll give it a second to get passed out. But this is a chain of emails between Ms. Groff and a redacted name. These emails are dated April 18th, 2012, and the subject line reads first girl redacted. The Bates No. is EFTA 02027638. We'll give you a moment to review.
p. 102QThis is the email that was just being referenced. If you read from the bottom up, the first email states, "Hi, Lesley. I'm so sorry -- in front of -- Jeffrey, for my delay. I'm sending you pictures of two of my friends now. They are both Russians." Winky face. "Here is first" -- her name is redacted. And it says -- there is another name listed below that, and on the back of that page, page 2, there's an entirely redacted image.
p. 102AOkay.
p. 102QAnd then, Ms. Groff, you respond on the same day with just a winky face. Just for the record to be clear, are you familiar with this email?
p. 102AI don't recall it, but I think I said, "No worries, thanks," and someone else had the winky face.
p. 102QOkay. Thank you.
p. 102AUh-huh. I don't recall this -- this email. The date seems to suggest that it's possible he was looking for new traveling assistants because --
p. 102Mr. Timmons.Sorry. Let's be very clear. He was attempting to find people that he was going to sex and human traffic for the next decade. So, I mean, yeah, it's an assistant, but that's what he was doing.
p. 103Mr. Bachner.Are you asking if she knew it?
p. 103Mr. Timmons.I just -- I don't like people using the word "assistant." I correct people when they say it because it's not accurate. She's an assistant.
p. 103Mr. Whitcomb.She's testifying, sir; you're not.
p. 103Mr. Bachner.In all fairness, she's not disputing what Jeffrey Epstein did. If you're asking what she knew back then, she'll gladly answer the question. But she's not disputing that Mr. Epstein was this person doing what you're claiming she was doing -- he was doing.
p. 103Mr. Timmons.And that was to find culpability in the process.
p. 103Mr. Bachner.Understood. Understood.
p. 103Mr. Timmons.When she's facilitating the flow of information and people, that's why we're here.
p. 103Mr. Bachner.Understood. Well, the issue is whether there was knowledge or not, which she doesn't have.
p. 103Mr. Timmons.Correct.
p. 103QSo why was this individual sending you images of other women?
p. 103AI -- I don't know.
p. 103QDid you ask for the photo?
p. 103ANo.
p. 103QDid Mr. Epstein ask for the photo?
p. 103AI don't know.
p. 103QWere you aware that this -- is this a nude photo, do you recall?
p. 104ANo.
p. 104Ms. Brignac.Why would he need a photograph in order to recruit an assistant?
p. 104Ms. Groff.I don't know that this was to get a traveling assistant. I said it's possible that it was for -- to get a traveling assistant. He was always wanting to find better, and I don't know what it was for. I also know that he was very, very connected to the modeling world. He was in business with Jean-Luc Brunel. So -- as well as other agencies.
p. 104Ms. Brignac.This is in 2012 after he cut ties with Les Wexner. So I don't think he would have thought it was for a modeling position. What did you mean by your winky face?
p. 104Ms. Groff.That's not my winky face. It's whoever sent the email's winky face.
p. 104QAnd do you know how old this individual was in the photo?
p. 104AI do not.
p. 104QWhat did you do with this image after?
p. 104AI probably forwarded it on to Mr. Epstein.
p. 104QAnd did this happen on multiple occasions? How often were you receiving images of women to give to Mr. Epstein?
p. 104ANot often.
p. 104Ms. Tolan.I will now introduce majority exhibit 3. [Groff Majority Exhibit No. 3. was marked for identification.]
p. 104Ms. Tolan.This is another email chain, dated May 1st, 2012, between Ms. Groff and another redacted email address with the subject line Jeffrey Epstein. The Bates No. is EFTA 01884789. I'll give you a moment to review this one as well.
p. 105Mr. Bachner.Okay.
p. 105Ms. Groff.Yep.
p. 105QI will direct your attention to the bottom of page 1, where the email reads, "Dear Lesley, just wanted to make sure you got the new photo. Let me know, please"; to which you appeared to respond that you had not received any new photos. And the email address, which is redacted, says they will try to send the email again. Then the following email near the top of the page reads, "Darling, here is the picture of new girl redacted. She's 21, very sweet and lovely. Let me know you received them, please. I took them from her portfolio. So maybe the quality is not so good, but I think you can still see everything," with a winky face. Ms. Groff, are you familiar with this email?
p. 105AI am not. Since we've been getting ready to see you, I've seen this email. To me, it sounds like she's a model.
p. 105QAnd was the purpose to -- of these images to send them to Mr. Epstein?
p. 105AI would think so, yes.
p. 105QWhy would you be sending modeling photos to Mr. Epstein?
p. 105ABecause he had a business relationship with Jean-Luc Brunel, with Kates -- Faith with Next Modeling, and he knew lots of other models, Naomi Campbell, Petronikova, Tatiana Stepanova, famous models. It made sense to me that he would be helping coordinate models.
p. 105QDid you ever see these women receive job offers or modeling contracts?
p. 105AI don't recall. That was not something that I discussed with him.
p. 105QDid you see any concerns with sending him these photographs after he was arrested and charged and indicted for soliciting prostitution from minors?
p. 106ANo.
p. 106QAnd all of the images that are attached have facial redactions. However, the image on what should be page 7, the second-to-last -- the very last physical page, second-to-last image, is very clearly a full body redaction? Is it because this woman was nude or -- in this photo.
p. 106AI don't know. I don't remember the photo. But I don't believe I ever saw nude photos.
p. 106QDid you ever -- the email states that she was 21. Did you ever verify the age of this individual?
p. 106ANo. I don't know.
p. 106QAnd did you forward these images to Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 106AI -- I don't know. I would -- oh, I think I did. It says to Jeffrey Epstein.
p. 106Ms. Brignac.Ms. Groff, have you ever served as a sponsor for a foreign woman or girl's visa?
p. 106Ms. Groff.No.
p. 106Ms. Brignac.I'm going to enter majority exhibit 4, which is EFTA 020625 -- excuse me -- 02062951. This is an email from you to Amex Centurian Travel, dated January 14th, 2016. [Groff Majority Exhibit No. 4. was marked for identification.]
p. 106Ms. Brignac.The email reads, "Natasha, we need to find a flight that departs Rome and goes to London on the 29th for" -- redacted. "This flight should depart around the same time. The flight we are holding for" -- redacted -- "Rome to Miami, 10:35 a.m. No return flights for this flight. This is a decoy flight. She will not really take it, but she needs to show an itinerary for this flight. Can you put something together for me?" I'm going to give you a moment to review this.
p. 106Mr. Bachner.Could we have just one second? [Discussion off the record.]
p. 107Mr. Bachner.Sorry.
p. 107Ms. Brignac.Just let me know when you're ready.
p. 107Mr. Bachner.We're ready.
p. 107QWhat is a decoy flight?
p. 107AIt means that she was not going to take the flight.
p. 107QDid you regularly engage in requesting decoy flights for securing visas?
p. 107ANo.
p. 107QHow many times have you engaged in this practice?
p. 107Mr. Bachner.With all due respect, there's no indication it was to obtain a visa.
p. 107Ms. Brignac.Okay. How many times did you engage in the practice of registering decoy flights?
p. 107Ms. Groff.This is the only decoy flight that I recall. And the only reason I recall it is because, while getting ready for -- to come speak with y'all voluntarily, I saw this email along with others about this trip.
p. 107Ms. Tolan.You said it was a decoy flight because she's not going to -- she was not going to take it. Why?
p. 107Ms. Groff.Right. So this person -- this woman wanted to take a flight to visit Mr. Epstein. She did not want to tell her parents that she was going to take this flight. She wanted to keep a flight that was taking her to London and have a different flight, though, take her really to see Mr. Epstein. I don't know why she didn't want to tell her parents, but this was not for a visa.
p. 107Ms. Brignac.I'm entering majority exhibit 5 into the record, which is marked EFTA 00501622 through EFTA 00501625. [Groff Majority Exhibit No. 5. was marked for identification.]
p. 108Ms. Brignac.These are emails between you and , an executive travel counselor, about paying for flights and a hotel for a woman with her visa, dated December 17th and 18th, 2012. I'll give you a moment to review.
p. 108QWho is ?
p. 108AShe was our Amex Centurian rep for -- Amex Centurian rep.
p. 108QHow did you meet her?
p. 108AI never met her in person. She was somebody that I was told was going to be our rep.
p. 108QBy who?
p. 108AIt was so long ago; I don't know how she came to be the rep.
p. 108QDid Mr. Epstein introduce you to her?
p. 108AI don't think he introduced me to her. I'm sure she may have just called one day and said she was now going to be our rep. I really don't recall how it happened.
p. 108QHow many people at Amex did you deal with?
p. 108AI dealt with her mostly. But, if she was on vacation or sick or something, someone else would take her spot.
p. 108QIn this exhibit, you send an email that states, redacted "has an interview with the consulate at 10:30. She needs proof of hotel stay and air for this meeting. If any way you can do faster, would really appreciate it." What was the reason for this individual's travel?
p. 108AI -- I don't know. I think that this was an assistant of Mr. Epstein's that wanted to get her visa.
p. 108QAnd you assisted in facilitating that visa?
p. 108AThe only thing I facilitated was getting her a ticket and a hotel room reservation. That was it.
p. 109QBut we can agree she needed that ticket and hotel reservation in order to secure her visa?
p. 109AI was directed to please purchase this for her.
p. 109QWhat were you told was the purpose of this woman's travel?
p. 109AI don't think I was told. It looks to me like she needed to get her visa, and she was requesting it, and that's it. I was asked to get the ticket. I was dealing with Amex Centurian. That's it.
p. 109QIs this an example of the decoy flight?
p. 109ANo.
p. 109QWhy did you ask if it would be fully refundable?
p. 109AI don't recall. Maybe I was asked to ask if it would be fully refundable.
p. 109QWho paid for this woman's travel?
p. 109AI don't know.
p. 109QWho paid for her visa application?
p. 109AI don't know.
p. 109QDid these women meet with Mr. Epstein upon their arrival to the U.S.?
p. 109AI don't know. I'm not positive who this even is. I believe it was a traveling assistant, but I don't know.
p. 109QDid you facilitate lodging for any of the women that entered the U.S. on a visa?
p. 109AIt's possible that I was directed to provide them an apartment or a hotel room, but I -- it's possible.
p. 109QWere any of these women scheduled to give massages?
p. 109AI don't know.
p. 109QWas this woman ever identified as a victim of Mr. Epstein's?
p. 110AI don't know who this is. It's redacted. I'm sorry.
p. 110QWere any of the women that you worked with to secure a visa identified as a victim of Mr. Epstein's?
p. 110AI believe his traveling assistants are all victims now and -- yeah.
p. 110QWho else did you facilitate housing for?
p. 110AI didn't facilitate housing. If I was directed and asked to set aside an apartment, I would do that.
p. 110Ms. Brignac.I will now enter into the record majority's exhibit 6, which is Bates stamped EFTA 00956524 and dated March 14th, 2013. [Groff Majority Exhibit No. 6. was marked for identification.]
p. 110QIn this email exchange, a redacted individual asks Mr. Epstein whether he will be in New York and whether he has a place for her to stay. Mr. Epstein forwarded this email to you and asks you -- and I quote -- "Les, do we have an apartment for her?" I'll give you a moment to review.
p. 110QOkay. Ms. Groff, specifically this woman says her Czech friend will be in town, and Mr. Epstein asks if you have an apartment for her. Who was this individual that needed a place to stay?
p. 110AI don't know. Sorry.
p. 110QIf you can't remember the name, did you, in fact, secure an apartment for this individual?
p. 110AI don't know. I was asked to see if there was an apartment available. I don't know what happened after that.
p. 111QIs it possible that you would have put her up in 301 East 66th Street?
p. 111AIt's possible.
p. 111QDid you commonly arrange for housing for young women or girls at 301 East 66th Street?
p. 111AI did arrange via -- because I was directed and asked to set aside an apartment for someone, and it could be women and men.
p. 111QHow many individuals did you secure housing for at 301 East 66th Street?
p. 111AOver my -- could you be more specific? What do you mean?
p. 111QYes. Ever.
p. 111AEver? Oh, I don't know. I don't know. They were guest apartments, and he had guests come and go.
p. 111QWhat would be the purpose of these foreign women staying at an Epstein-owned residence?
p. 111AI don't know.
p. 111QYou never asked?
p. 111AI did not ask.
p. 111QWhat was your understanding of Mr. Epstein's involvement, or did you understand him to have any ownership in 301 East 66th?
p. 111AI thought that he owned the apartments, but I -- I didn't know. That's not something that I got into.
p. 111QAnd how many apartments?
p. 111AI don't know. Probably like 10 apartments.
p. 111QAre those apartments separate from the office space you worked in when you were in that building?
p. 112ATwo of the apartments became no longer guest apartments. They became offices.
p. 112QAnd were the other eight apartments always occupied?
p. 112ANo. There would be times when no one would be in apartments.
p. 112QAnd we've mentioned a couple different individuals that would be housed in these apartments. Were any of Mr. Epstein's assistants housed in these apartments?
p. 112ATraveling assistants could have an apartment there, yes.
p. 112QAnd did he pay their rent if they were living there?
p. 112AI don't know.
p. 112QWere any other employees of Mr. Epstein housed there?
p. 112AI know, at one point, Lyn and Jojo had an apartment there. I recall if he would hire a -- I recall somebody who was hired as an estate manager was -- there was a gentleman, he -- I don't know where he moved from, but he moved into one of the apartments. There were the pilots that each had an apartment. There was -- I believe Darren lived there for a bit of time.
p. 112Ms. Brignac.Were any masseuses housed at 301 East 66th Street?
p. 112Ms. Groff.No.
p. 112QAnd did Mr. Epstein house any of his girlfriends at this apartment?
p. 112AI believe lived there for a time, and lived there for a time.
p. 112QAnd you said you may have put someone in one of these apartments on one occasion. Who else would have been involved in this process?
p. 112AJust Mr. Epstein directing me to put aside an apartment for someone.
p. 112QDid you work with Richard Kahn, , Darren Indyke for any of these apartments?
p. 112ANo. I don't think they had that much to do with who would be staying in the apartments.
p. 113QWas Mr. Epstein a registered sex offender at this time that you were housing women from Czech Republic?
p. 113AAfter -- there were constant guests coming to his apartments.
p. 113QSorry. Was he a registered sex offender?
p. 113AIt would be after he was a registered sex offender.
p. 113QDid that concern you?
p. 113ANo.
p. 113QMs. Groff, this committee is attempting to understand the circle of people that allowed for Mr. Epstein to continue to abuse young women and girls beyond his arrest. You never asked anyone or expressed concern to Mr. Epstein about him housing foreign women and girls in apartment housing?
p. 113AI did not question him on his business.
p. 113QDid David Mitchell ever live in the 301 East 66th apartment?
p. 113AI don't believe so.
p. 113QAnd you mentioned guests, apartments generally. Is there anyone else you can recall that stayed in the 301 East 66th Street apartments as Mr. Epstein's guest?
p. 113AI -- I recall a mother and her son who was getting treatment at Sloan-Kettering. They stayed for a good 6 months. I know Ehud Barak and Nili, his wife, stayed at 301. Who else? I mean, people would often call and ask if they could -- could stay. Some people -- you know, I didn't know everyone that was staying there.
p. 113QAnd changing gears a little bit, back to scheduling generally. You mentioned you were responsible for scheduling all kinds of appointments for Mr. Epstein. Is that correct?
p. 114AYes.
p. 114QAnd were you specifically scheduling for the meetings at the New York residence?
p. 114AYes, I scheduled meetings for the New York residence.
p. 114QAnd what would the scheduling entail? Were you setting times, days, people?
p. 114AYes.
p. 114QCould you explain?
p. 114AYes. Times, days for a lunch, a breakfast. If it was for a breakfast, I would need to find out what that person wanted for breakfast and make sure and tell his maid, Lyn, what they wanted for breakfast or lunch or dinner. I would coordinate meetings for people who were visiting in town that he wanted to see. Standard.
p. 114QAnd would Mr. Epstein always direct you who to schedule, or did you have any discretion?
p. 114AI had no discretion.
p. 114QWere you instructed to schedule certain individuals on a reoccurring basis?
p. 114ANo. There was no reoccurring appointment.
p. 114QWere you ever instructed to schedule certain people on the same time -- at the same time or on the same day as other individuals?
p. 114ANo.
p. 114QWere meetings ever scheduled for the purpose of Mr. Epstein introducing young women or girls to other prominent individuals?
p. 114ACan you say that again? I'm sorry.
p. 114QYes. Were meetings ever scheduled for the purpose of Mr. Epstein introducing young women or girls to prominent individuals?
p. 115ANo, not that I know of.
p. 115QDid Mr. Epstein ever instruct you to schedule appointments with women directly before or after his business meetings?
p. 115ANo.
p. 115QDid you ever schedule massage appointments for Mr. Epstein in between his meetings?
p. 115AThat would be early on in my employment, yes.
p. 115QAnd, when the massage appointments were scheduled in between business meetings, did the business guests ever partake in the massages?
p. 115ANot that I know of.
p. 115QWas that an intentional scheduling tactic?
p. 115AI didn't know of any tactics. I just scheduled his appointments as directed by him.
p. 115QDo you know if he would ever invite the guests he was meeting with to partake in the massages?
p. 115AI do not.
p. 115QAnd were you the one responsible for circulating Mr. Epstein's daily calendar?
p. 115AI did circulate his calendar so that his staff would know when to expect people.
p. 115Ms. Brignac.So did he have massage appointments on those calendars that you circulated?
p. 115Ms. Groff.Yes, early on, uh-huh. I believe so.
p. 115Ms. Brignac.Sorry. After his arrest, were there any massage appointments on the calendar that you circulated?
p. 115Ms. Groff.No.
p. 115QDid you create the schedule that you would send around?
p. 115ADid I actually type it?
p. 116QYep.
p. 116AYes, I typed it.
p. 116QDid anyone else help you create it?
p. 116ANo.
p. 116QWho all would receive the schedule?
p. 116AUsually his house staff or if a pilot needed to know something, he would be included, too. It was usually -- it was internal people.
p. 116QWas it sent daily?
p. 116AYes.
p. 116QAnd what email would you send this from, do you recall?
p. 116AMy email address?
p. 116QYes.
p. 116AIt's redacted.
p. 116Mr. Bachner.If you recall.
p. 116Ms. Groff.I don't recall what my -- it was a gmail address.
p. 116QBut you had one individual email for your work with Mr. Epstein --
p. 116AThat is correct.
p. 116Q-- and it would come from that email?
p. 116ACorrect.
p. 116QDid you ever maintain a different email address, maybe affiliated with Darren Indyke's law firm?
p. 116ANo. It never changed. My email address never changed.
p. 116QDo you still have access to that account?
p. 116AI have not logged into that gmail account since I left.
p. 117QDo you know -- sorry. Go ahead.
p. 117AYeah. I mean, I -- I don't know if there's access still to it. I don't know how long an email address remains.
p. 117QOkay. And for Mr. Epstein, do you know how many email accounts he had?
p. 117AI don't know. This jeevacation was his main email address. I don't know of any other addresses that I can think of.
p. 117QAnd you mentioned earlier, but you did not have access to his email addresses?
p. 117AThat's correct.
p. 117QYou didn't know the log-in?
p. 117ANo.
p. 117QNever accessed it?
p. 117ANo.
p. 117QDid you ever send emails on behalf of Mr. Epstein?
p. 117AI only sent an email as a directive. I would pass on a message, but it was just, you know, a message or Mr. Epstein is asking if somebody is -- if they're available. It was, you know -- I don't really understand.
p. 117QMs. Groff, this was covered a bit in the last hour, but just to reiterate for the record, do you know who Barbro Ehnbom is?
p. 117AYes.
p. 117QAnd did Mr. Epstein hold meetings with her?
p. 117AYes.
p. 117QHow frequently?
p. 117AOnly when she was in town. I would say -- I don't know how frequently -- once a quarter, maybe.
p. 117QAnd what was the purpose of these meetings?
p. 118AI don't know.
p. 118QWould she typically bring young women with her to meet Mr. Epstein?
p. 118AI know she would bring her -- her graduates from the Stockholm School of Economics. I believe that that's who the women were.
p. 118QWhy was she bringing them to Mr. Epstein?
p. 118ABecause Mr. Epstein was -- I don't know. I don't know. He's a businessman, and maybe he could, you know -- I don't know.
p. 118Mr. Bachner.Don't speculate.
p. 118Ms. Groff.Yeah, I don't know. I wasn't in there.
p. 118QWas he hiring these young women?
p. 118AI don't think he hired any of them.
p. 118QWas he helping them connect for other jobs?
p. 118AI don't know.
p. 118QAnd were you directly involved in helping schedule meetings between Mr. Epstein and Barbro Ehnbom?
p. 118AYes, I scheduled meetings for Mr. Epstein and with Ms. Ehnbom.
p. 118QHow would you know how long to schedule these meetings for?
p. 118AI don't know. He never was in meetings for a super long time. But I don't know that he ever requested actual timing, like, set aside 2 hours.
p. 118QSo how did you know how long to schedule them for?
p. 118AI guess I just guessed. I mean, 30 minutes seemed to be pretty typical, maybe an hour if it was a lunch or a breakfast, something like that.
p. 118QWould you ever hear, if an appointment was going long, why that was?
p. 119ANo. He might tell me to move something. "This appointment is going longer; can you please move" -- you know, shift the rest of the day.
p. 119QAnd were you ever present for any of the meetings between Ms. Ehnbom, the BBB girls, and Mr. Epstein?
p. 119ANo.
p. 119QDid any other men ever meet with Ms. Ehnbom, the BBB girls, and Mr. Epstein?
p. 119AI don't know.
p. 119QDo you know if Jes Staley ever took part in a meeting with Ms. Ehnbom, the BBB girls, and Mr. Epstein?
p. 119AI don't know. I don't recall.
p. 119QReporting indicates that Swedish finance feminist Barbro Ehnbom was organizing Swedish girls for Jeffrey Epstein for a fee. In fact, the EFTA files released by the Department of Justice even show routine annual donations from Mr. Epstein to Ms. Ehnbom frequently in the amount of $25,000, but there was once talk of a potential donation of up to a million dollars. Are you aware of these allegations?
p. 119ANo.
p. 119QAnd were you aware of any of this conduct occurring at the time you were his secretary?
p. 119ANo.
p. 119Ms. Brignac.You never saw a transaction from Mr. Epstein to Barbro Ehnbom?
p. 119Ms. Groff.There may have been -- he may have said, send -- have Rich send whatever, the $25,000. I don't know. But I thought it was as a donation to the school. It was -- yeah. I don't know.
p. 119Ms. Tolan.Just to ask one more time, were you aware that Mr. Epstein paid Ms. Ehnbom large sums of money in exchange for women or meetings with women?
p. 120Ms. Groff.No.
p. 120Ms. Tolan.And did Mr. Epstein utilize or meet with any other organizations similar to the BBB girls.
p. 120Ms. Groff.Not that I can recall.
p. 120QWere there any other organizations that promoted the advancement of young women that Mr. Epstein was involved with?
p. 120ANot that I can think of.
p. 120QDid you find this to be a unique interest of a registered sex offender?
p. 120AThat he was friends with Barbro?
p. 120QThat he was paying large sums of money to a school after meeting with the young women that attended that school.
p. 120AI thought he was supporting Barbro and the Stockholm School of Economics.
p. 120QOkay.
p. 120Ms. Tolan.That will conclude our hour there. We'll go off the record. [Recess.] BY MS. :
p. 120QMs. Groff, you previously testified that, after Mr. Epstein was incarcerated, you stopped booking massages for him, correct?
p. 120ACorrect. Ms. . I would like to introduce as minority exhibit C, this email exchange between you and a redacted person from October 21st, 2011. The Bates No. is EFTA 00921819. [Groff Minority Exhibit C. was marked for identification.] BY MS. :
p. 121QIn this exchange, you write to this person, quote, "Jeffrey says he called you at 10:30 last night, but no answer. He's wondering if you might like to stop by today with -- redacted -- at either 3:00 or 7:00." There's some back-and-forth about scheduling, and then the person says, quote, "redacted -- just got back, and I spoke to her now about tonight. She's never done anything of this sort before and is a little nervous about the whole thing. I don't know what Jeffrey has planned for tonight, but is it okay if they just meet this time? She would really feel more comfortable that way." You then forward the email to Mr. Epstein. And he says, quote, "Of course." When this person said that -- this other person, presumably their friend, quote, "has never done anything of this sort before" and was, quote, "a little nervous about the whole thing," what did you understand her to mean?
p. 121AYou got to understand, my day was so super-busy, I'm sure that I barely read this email and --
p. 121QWell, you clearly registered what she said, though, because you forwarded her question on to Mr. Epstein, and then he said, "Of course." So you must have registered it, if you knew she was making a request of you, that you needed his signoff for, right?
p. 121AI -- I'm sure that I did not put in much thought. I'm sure that my day -- you got to understand, my day was not just focused on this one -- on an area of appointments. I had so many other things going on as well.
p. 121QI understand that.
p. 121AAnd -- right. And so --
p. 121QIt doesn't answer my question, though. Ms. Groff, what do you think this person's friend had never done before?
p. 121AI don't know.
p. 122QWhat do you think this person's friend was nervous about?
p. 122AI don't know.
p. 122QDo you think that it is a fair reading of this email chain that Mr. Epstein called someone, likely a girl or a young woman, at 10:30 at night. They did not pick up. And then asked you to contact them to schedule a massage. You did that. And the thing that this person was nervous about, the thing that they had never done before was massaging Mr. Epstein, whatever that might have meant. Is that a fair reading of this email chain, Ms. Groff?
p. 122AIt doesn't say anything about massage. I don't know what this was for.
p. 122Mr. Bachner.Are you asking whether today she would agree that this could be a fair reading of what you're saying or what she knew back then? Ms. . I understand that she is testifying that she does not remember this particular instance. I am asking her, given that, given that you do not remember it and also that you did schedule massages for this man for a long time, whether it is a fair reading of this chain that what I described earlier is what happened.
p. 122Mr. Bachner.Knowing what you know now.
p. 122Ms. Groff.Knowing what I know now, yes. BY MS. :
p. 122QMs. Groff, this email is from 2011. You previously testified that, after Mr. Epstein was incarcerated, you stopped booking massages for him?
p. 122AThat's correct.
p. 122QHe was incarcerated from 2008 to 2009, correct?
p. 122ACorrect.
p. 122QSo wouldn't this suggest that you continued to book massages for him?
p. 122AI would not have known that this was a massage. I don't know -- you're assuming that I would think it was a massage, but I did not think of it as a massage. I said I probably didn't put much thought into it. I was super-busy. I just needed to know if he would be able to meet with this person. He said yes. And I'm sure my day just moved on.
p. 123QWell, surely he instructed you to reach out to this person, though, because you're the first one in the email. You email, and you say he called you last night at 10:30.
p. 123AYes.
p. 123QSo, when he instructed you, wouldn't he have had to say, "Ms. Groff, can you schedule this person for a massage?" How would you --
p. 123Mr. Bachner.I'm sorry to interrupt. If we knew the redacted name, maybe that would help her know what this is about. But, right now, it's a redacted name. You're asking her to speculate as to what this possibly could mean. It's kind of not fair.
p. 123Ms. Groff.I was just making an appointment for him as requested. He wanted to know if this person could come over at 3:00 or 7:00. And, as directed by him, I asked if this person could come over at 3:00 or 7:00. Ms. . So your testimony today is that, as far as you know, this was not to book a massage, and you stand by your earlier statement that, after Mr. Epstein was incarcerated, you no longer booked massages for him?
p. 123Ms. Groff.That is correct, except for the -- maybe the one time in Palm Beach at the medical spa? Ms. . After he was incarcerated, did you coordinate payment for massages?
p. 123Ms. Groff.No. Ms. . I would like to introduce as minority exhibit D this email exchange between you and Mr. Epstein from September 19th, 2011. The Bates No. is EFTA 01855069. [Groff Minority Exhibit D. was marked for identification.] BY MS. :
p. 124QIn the first email, you write to Mr. Epstein that, quote, "redacted would like to pick up money for time spent on the island. How much shall I tell to give her?" Mr. Epstein then responds, quote, "600." And you've mentioned before. Can you remind me what her role was?
p. 124AShe was in the accounting department.
p. 124QAnd the island refers to Little Saint James, correct?
p. 124ACorrect.
p. 124QWhat was your understanding of why this person was being paid for the time they spent on the island?
p. 124AI, unfortunately, don't know who this person is. I don't recall this email, and I don't know what this person was doing. He had architects and decorators and artists go to his island. He was constantly trying to redecorate and do things there. I don't know what this was for.
p. 124QThe email doesn't say for any kind of specific task, right? It doesn't say for redecorating. It doesn't say for building. It says for time spent on the island. And the amount is 600, correct?
p. 124ACorrect.
p. 124QWhen Mr. Epstein would pay girls and women for massages where he sexually abused them, he would typically pay them 2- or $300, correct?
p. 124ACorrect.
p. 124QSo isn't it a fair reading of this email, the $600 is likely for two instances where Mr. Epstein received a massage and sexually abused a girl or young woman?
p. 124AAt the time, I did not know that this was occurring. I never saw anything inappropriate. So my mind was not going in the direction you're trying to take my mind. Everything, to me, that I was -- that I was doing, I feel like now, looking through a dirty lens, things look dirty. But, at this time, I was unaware of anything that was going on.
p. 125QWell, this was 2011, though. So you weren't unaware because he had been investigated and arrested. He had pleaded guilty to two charges, one of which involved a minor. He had been incarcerated. He had been on house arrest. There were a lot of stories in the news about him. So, actually, you did have information about who this man was and what he had done. Admittedly, that was not complete, but wouldn't that have informed how you understood this email?
p. 125AAt the time, we -- I was still being told that he had been blackmailed and that his sentence was -- was for soliciting a prostitute. I did not know that these other things were occurring at the time. And he lied to me, and he manipulated me, and he had me, as well as, it seems to me, everyone else, believing that -- that this was -- that things out there that were being said were wrong and just false.
p. 125QWhat about looking back at it now, do you think that a fair reading of this email is that a girl or a young woman who was on his island was asking to be paid for instances where she was sexually abused?
p. 125AIn hindsight and being able to see the big picture in his emails and what everybody is -- is saying now, yes, it's terrible.
p. 125QOkay. And this is also from 2011. So also after his incarceration. So then your previous statement about how you didn't help pay girls who had massaged him after his incarceration was incorrect?
p. 125Mr. Whitcomb.Objection. That's not what she said. You're mischaracterizing her testimony. Ms. . The rules of evidence do not apply here. Please answer the question.
p. 125Mr. Whitcomb.Yeah. But the rules of fairness apply. Ms. . Could you please answer the question?
p. 126Mr. Whitcomb.Object to the form of the question, too. It's incoherent.
p. 126Mr. Bachner.Ms. , could you just add the word "knowingly"? I mean, her testimony earlier was that she didn't knowingly do that. So -- Ms. . Okay. Great. Let's clarify that. Would you now say, looking at this email as we have discussed it, what you have agreed is a fair characterization of it; it appears that, after he was incarcerated, you did, in fact, facilitate payment for a massage?
p. 126Mr. Bachner.That's also not what she said. She said it's a fair reading to say it could have happened. It's not that she knows it happened or did happen.
p. 126Mr. Whitcomb.Asking for speculation as well. Ms. . Okay. So do you --
p. 126Mr. Bachner.It's redacted. Ms. . You stand by your previous testimony that you did not do that after he was incarcerated?
p. 126Ms. Groff.That's correct. I would never -- I did not know what this was for. I don't recall this email. I don't know.
p. 126Mr. Bachner.Again, the subject line is redacted. The name is redacted. Ms. . We understand, Mr. Bachner. Thank you. You also previously testified that you had no role in visa sponsorship, correct?
p. 126Ms. Groff.Well, I -- correct. Ms. . I would like to introduce as minority exhibit E this email exchange between you, Mr. Epstein, and Arda Beskardes from April 5th, 2019. The Bates No. is EFTA 00493112. [Groff Minority Exhibit E. was marked for identification.] BY MS. :
p. 127QStarting from the bottom of the first page, you email Mr. Epstein the details of a physical therapy program at the Lutheran Hospital in Brooklyn and say, quote, "Would this work? Can she get her visa and to NY by April 15th?" Then you email the course information to Mr. Beskardes. And he responds, quote, "I am actually CUNY's attorney. I will contact them directly. Need to see if they give visas." Why were you emailing this information about this program to Mr. Epstein and asking about whether an individual could get her visa and get to New York by a specific date? [2:38 p.m.]
p. 128Ms. Groff.I don't recall this email. I'm sure that Mr. Epstein asked me to investigate this course. There's no reason that I -- why else I would have investigated this course. I don't know who this person is or -- BY MS. :
p. 128QDid you have a role in researching potential programs for girls or women connected to Mr. Epstein that they could then use to secure visas?
p. 128ANo. This is -- this is -- I was not asked -- it looks like I was asked to investigate a course as directed, but this -- I did not speak to Arda. I merely would put Mr. Epstein in touch with him as a phone call, as somebody that he wanted to speak with, but I don't know why I was asked to go look at this course.
p. 128QOkay. Even though you explicitly reference a visa in your email to Mr. Epstein?
p. 128AIt was probably something that I was asked by Mr. Epstein if she could get her visa. I don't know. I don't recall this.
p. 128QJust a few quick questions about Mr. Beskardes. What was your understanding of his role at CUNY?
p. 128AHe was a professor.
p. 128QTo your knowledge, did he ever use his position at CUNY to have women affiliated with Mr. Epstein admitted into any program at that institution?
p. 128AI don't know.
p. 128QTo your knowledge, did he ever use his position at CUNY to secure visas for any women affiliated with Mr. Epstein?
p. 128AI don't know.
p. 128QDid you ever give his contact information to anyone in Mr. Epstein's network?
p. 128AI don't know.
p. 129QDo you have any memory of giving his contact information to Leon Black or anyone who worked for Leon Black?
p. 129AI don't know.
p. 129QI'd like to ask you a few more questions about your work for Mr. Epstein booking travel. As part of your employment for Mr. Epstein, you arranged domestic and international travel for girls and young women, correct?
p. 129AFor women, yes.
p. 129QAnd not for girls?
p. 129AI don't believe I ever made any travel for -- when you say girls, what do you mean? Minors?
p. 129QYes. Individuals --
p. 129ANo.
p. 129Q-- women under the age of 18, so girls.
p. 129ANo.
p. 129QDuring the period that you worked for Mr. Epstein, approximately how many young women do you think that you arranged travel for, including flights, hotels, and any other kind of travel?
p. 129AIt's a difficult question. Over the course of my entire time with him? I really don't know.
p. 129QIf you had to estimate, would it be dozens, hundreds, thousands?
p. 129ANot thousands, no. And some people would be -- it was usually his traveling assistants that would be going to see him. But it's very difficult for me to try and come up with a number. It was not thousands. It was not hundreds. I don't know, 50, 70, 50. I don't know.
p. 129Mr. Bachner.Don't speculate. If you don't know the answers, you don't know.
p. 129Ms. Groff.Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. BY MS. :
p. 130QSo you talked about his travel assistants before. When you were booking this travel, would you work with them to do it?
p. 130ASometimes, if I was directed to by Epstein to book a ticket and I needed to speak to them. But usually it was whatever he wanted.
p. 130QAnd who would that have been on his staff that you would have booked travel with or worked with to book travel?
p. 130AJust Amex Centurion.
p. 130QOh, understood. What was your understanding of the purpose of this travel?
p. 130AFor the traveling assistants? To help him with his travel, to be there to do chores, to make sure that the staff, wherever he was going, had things. They would go grocery shopping. Things of that nature.
p. 130QI think we may be miscommunicating, so I'll try to be more clear. When you booked travel on behalf of Mr. Epstein for women affiliated with him, did you work with people on his staff to do that?
p. 130ANo.
p. 130QOkay.
p. 130ANo.
p. 130QBut you did work with external people like Ms. .
p. 130AYes.
p. 130QOkay. And this travel was typically for his staff, but also potentially other women as well, correct?
p. 130ACorrect.
p. 130QOkay. For those other women, not staff members who are traveling with him, but for those other women, what was your understanding of the typical purpose of that travel?
p. 131AI did not ask him why he had people traveling. I don't know.
p. 131QWere you ever aware of the purpose being for Mr. Epstein to engage in sexual activity with these young women?
p. 131ANo.
p. 131QWere you ever aware of the purpose being for people in his network to engage in sexual activity with these women?
p. 131ANo. [Groff Minority Exhibit F. was marked for identification.] BY MS. :
p. 131QI'd like to introduce as minority exhibit F this email exchange between you and Mr. Epstein -- oh, excuse me -- an email exchange between you and Ms. from September 5th, 2017. The Bates number is EFTA00458074. Although your name is redacted here, I will represent to you, based on in-camera review of an unredacted version of the document, that the bottom email is from you. In this exchange, you raise with Ms. what you say is a, quote, "gigantic issue." You flag that some flight confirmations were sent to people other than you, and you tell Ms. that, quote, "Jeffrey was livid about this." Specifically, you note that some flight confirmations were sent to and another person. Why was Mr. Epstein angry about flight confirmations being sent to Ms. and this other person?
p. 131AI don't know. I know that he's an extremely private person and didn't like other people knowing what he was -- didn't want people to know about his schedule.
p. 131QIs this something that you remember him being angry about in other instances, flight confirmations being sent to people other than you?
p. 132AIn other instances? I believe that this was a time when something was happening on Amex Centurion's end and emails were going to everybody that was in their database, and he did not want everyone that was in the database receiving flight confirmations.
p. 132QEmails were going to everyone in Amex Centurion's database?
p. 132AThe database that would be for us, for Epstein.
p. 132QGot it. And who would have been included in that database?
p. 132AIt would be anyone who was authorized to book travel, I would believe, so any of the traveling assistants probably.
p. 132QAnd you, too, right?
p. 132AAnd me, uh-huh.
p. 132QAnyone else?
p. 132AEpstein. I don't know who else it might have been.
p. 132QYou also write that, quote, "I am petrified that all these tickets we have coming up this week from Russia to Paris will somehow resurface and get emailed to someone in our list of emails." Who was flying from Russia to Paris?
p. 132AI don't recall.
p. 132QWhy were you concerned that information about their flights would, quote, "resurface"?
p. 132AIt wasn't me that was concerned. I didn't want to hear the wrath and get in trouble from Mr. Epstein about inadvertently having confirmations be sent to people that were on our list.
p. 132QI understand you said he is a private person. Was there any other reason why he might not have wanted these flight confirmations to go to that list?
p. 132ANot that I know of, no.
p. 132QAnd to clarify, you understand your reference here to a list of emails is being that Amex Centurion database that we just spoke about.
p. 133ACorrect.
p. 133QSo we know that Mr. Epstein was in Paris at this point and had dinner reservations -- or, excuse me, dinner plans -- on September 5th, 2017, which is the date of this email. We also know that multiple women were scheduled to arrive in Paris that week. Were these women traveling to Paris for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with Mr. Epstein?
p. 133AI don't know.
p. 133QWere these women traveling to Paris for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with other men?
p. 133AI don't know.
p. 133QWere you ever aware of women who you were booking travel for being manipulated or coerced to travel?
p. 133ANo. BY MS. :
p. 133QMs. Groff, so you previously testified that the names in the database would have been the traveling assistants and other members of Mr. Epstein's staff. Is that correct?
p. 133AThat's what I believe.
p. 133QAnd you also previously testified that those women's job was to travel with Mr. Epstein and run his errands and arrange his schedule while he was traveling. Is that correct?
p. 133AYes.
p. 133QSo why would it then have been a problem for those women to know about people who might have been traveling to meet him while he was traveling to Paris?
p. 133AI don't know why he would think it was a problem. I think he was a control freak and just didn't like it when he was out -- felt out of control -- and this was out of his control and he wanted it to stop.
p. 134QOkay. Thank you. Okay. So we have some questions about the payments from Mr. Epstein that were discussed I think a little bit in a previous hour. So, as discussed, we have records of some large cash transfers from Southern Financial to you. So Southern Financial was one of Mr. Epstein's entities. Is that correct?
p. 134AYes.
p. 134QOkay. And are you aware of a transfer from Southern Financial to you on February 1st, 2016, of $100,000?
p. 134AOh, that was the loan, yes.
p. 134QOkay. So that one -- there's another one of $100,000 on January 3rd, 2017.
p. 134ACorrect.
p. 134QAnd then I believe you said there was one in 2018 as well. What was the date of that transfer?
p. 134AProbably around the same dates as the others. I don't know exactly.
p. 134QOkay. So early 2018.
p. 134AProbably, yes, at the beginning of the year. That would make sense.
p. 134QOf $100,000?
p. 134ACorrect.
p. 134QOkay. And then there's a transfer of $110,000 also from Southern Financial to you on December 19th, 2018.
p. 134ACorrect.
p. 134QOkay. And so is it correct, based on your previous testimony, that these were loans that were made to you as part of your compensation once your compensation system changed to a salary plus a loan?
p. 135ACorrect.
p. 135QOkay. Were there any other such loans made to you by Mr. Epstein or any of his entities?
p. 135ANo.
p. 135QOkay. Did you receive any gifts from Mr. Epstein or any of his entities between December 19th, 2018, and his death?
p. 135ANo.
p. 135QOkay.
p. 135ANot that I recall.
p. 135QAnd of those -- so $410,000 -- we know that there were some loans that were forgiven at the time of his death. What was the outstanding balance of loans that was forgiven at the time of his death?
p. 135AI guess the $410,000.
p. 135QOkay. So you didn't pay back any of those loans at any point before his death or after.
p. 135ACorrect.
p. 135Mr. Bachner.Can I have a moment with her? [Discussion off the record.]
p. 135Ms. Groff.I was writing interest loans -- interest checks every -- whenever they were due. I don't know. BY MS. :
p. 135QOkay. So you paid the interest but not the principal.
p. 135AYes, exactly. I paid the interest from the start, yeah.
p. 135QOkay. And did you ever help facilitate any transfers -- money transfers -- to or from Mr. Epstein or any of his entities?
p. 136ANo.
p. 136QOkay. Sarah Kellen told investigators that in December 2018 you emailed her to meet with Mr. Epstein and then he later gave her $250,000. Were you aware of that payment at that time?
p. 136AI was not, no.
p. 136QOkay. Did you later become aware of that payment at any time before Mr. Epstein's death?
p. 136ANo.
p. 136QOkay. And then we have some questions about your roles in Mr. Epstein's various trusts. So you were named as a beneficiary of the 2013 Butterfly Trust on a document dated December 31st, 2013. Can you explain what the Butterfly Trust is?
p. 136ANo, I cannot. I didn't know about the Butterfly Trust.
p. 136QYou didn't know of its existence?
p. 136ACorrect.
p. 136QUntil when?
p. 136AUntil after his death and all of this came out and we were prepping to meet with you.
p. 136QOkay. So at no point until your preparation for this interview did you know either of the existence of the Butterfly Trust or the fact that you were named as a beneficiary?
p. 136AThat is correct.
p. 136QOkay. Were you -- did you know that you were named as a beneficiary of any other of Mr. Epstein's trusts?
p. 136ANo.
p. 136QOkay.
p. 137Mr. Bachner.Can I have one moment? [Discussion off the record.] BY MS. :
p. 137QIs it your understanding at this point, now that you are aware of the trust and your position as beneficiary, that you are eligible to receive any money from that trust?
p. 137AI don't believe I'm in the trust. After we were prepping for this, I believe I was taken out of that trust.
p. 137QDo you know when that occurred?
p. 137AI believe it occurred when he was in jail. He took me out of this trust.
p. 137QAfter his arrest in 2019?
p. 137ACorrect.
p. 137QOkay. And separately you were named as a trustee of the 2017 Caterpillar Trust on a document dated January 1st, 2017. So were you aware at that time that you had been named as a trustee on the other trust?
p. 137AAfter prepping for this testimony, I remember it now, but -- yeah.
p. 137QBut you were not -- you were aware at the time?
p. 137AI must have been aware at the time, because my signature is on the paperwork.
p. 137QOkay. And what were or are your responsibilities as a trustee?
p. 137AI don't think I had any responsibilities.
p. 137QAt any point?
p. 137ACorrect.
p. 137QOkay. And do you stand to benefit financially from your role as a trustee?
p. 137ANo. No.
p. 137QIs it your understanding that the Caterpillar Trust is still in existence?
p. 137AI don't know. I don't think so. I don't know.
p. 138QOkay. You don't know?
p. 138AI don't know.
p. 138QGot it. Thank you. BY MS. :
p. 138QI'd like to ask you some questions about Ghislaine Maxwell. What was your understanding of her relationship with Mr. Epstein?
p. 138AI thought that they were dear friends who had known each other for quite a long time before I arrived there at the office, and I believed that she was his office manager.
p. 138QSo it was your understanding that she worked for Mr. Epstein in addition to being his friend, correct?
p. 138ACorrect.
p. 138QDo you know what Mr. Epstein paid Ms. Maxwell while she worked for him?
p. 138ANo.
p. 138QDo you know when Ms. Maxwell stopped working for Mr. Epstein?
p. 138AI don't know when she truly stopped, but I think it was around 2010, '11, something like that.
p. 138QWas Ms. Maxwell your supervisor at any point?
p. 138ANo.
p. 138QWere you ever aware of Ms. Maxwell soliciting minor girls to massage Mr. Epstein?
p. 138ANo.
p. 138QThere have been reports that Ms. Maxwell would say things like, quote, "I've got to go get girls for Jeffrey." Did you ever hear her say anything like that?
p. 138ANo.
p. 138QDid Ms. Maxwell ever instruct you to solicit minor girls to massage Mr. Epstein?
p. 139ANo.
p. 139QDid Ms. Maxwell ever instruct you to contact a specific person, a girl or a woman, to massage Mr. Epstein?
p. 139ANo.
p. 139QDo you believe that Ms. Maxwell should be pardoned for her crimes?
p. 139AKnowing what I know now?
p. 139QYes.
p. 139ANo. Mr. . I think Mr. Bell has some questions.
p. 139Mr. Bell.Good afternoon. I have a few questions. First, I want to talk about surveillance cameras in the Epstein homes. Were you aware of surveillance cameras in his New York residence, in Mr. Epstein's New York residence?
p. 139Ms. Groff.I knew that there were cameras that looked out onto 71st Street.
p. 139Mr. Bell.So that would be yes?
p. 139Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 139Mr. Bell.What about in his Palm Beach home?
p. 139Ms. Groff.No.
p. 139Mr. Bachner.No, you're not aware, or no, they didn't exist?
p. 139Ms. Groff.I'm not aware that they existed.
p. 139Mr. Bell.Do you know where the recordings from any of those cameras were stored?
p. 139Ms. Groff.No.
p. 139Mr. Bell.And do you know who has those recordings today?
p. 139Ms. Groff.No.
p. 139Mr. Bell.Did you have any kind of warning or advance knowledge that the Palm Beach Police Department was going to search Mr. Epstein's home in Palm Beach in 2005?
p. 140Ms. Groff.No.
p. 140Mr. Bell.Did you remove any photographs from his home?
p. 140Ms. Groff.No.
p. 140Mr. Bell.Cameras?
p. 140Ms. Groff.No.
p. 140Mr. Bell.Files?
p. 140Ms. Groff.No.
p. 140Mr. Bell.Hard drives?
p. 140Ms. Groff.No.
p. 140Mr. Bell.Or other documentary or electronic material from his home in advance of that search?
p. 140Ms. Groff.No.
p. 140Mr. Bell.Did you instruct anyone to do so?
p. 140Ms. Groff.No.
p. 140Mr. Bell.Are you aware of anyone removing such items from the home before the search?
p. 140Ms. Groff.No.
p. 140Mr. Bell.To your knowledge, did Mr. Epstein ever hire private investigators?
p. 140Ms. Groff.I don't know.
p. 140Mr. Bell.Are you aware now that he hired private investigators?
p. 140Ms. Groff.After preparing for this testimony, I heard someone say that he had hired --
p. 140Mr. Bell.So you're aware now.
p. 140Ms. Groff.Aware now, yes.
p. 140Mr. Bell.What was your understanding of why Mr. Epstein hired private investigators?
p. 140Ms. Groff.I didn't know that he hired private investigators.
p. 141Mr. Bell.What is your understanding now of why Mr. Epstein hired private investigators?
p. 141Ms. Groff.I don't know.
p. 141Mr. Bell.Are you aware of any -- to your understanding, are you aware of what Mr. Epstein instructed them to do?
p. 141Ms. Groff.No.
p. 141Mr. Bell.Did you have any role in hiring, overseeing, or paying private investigators on Mr. Epstein's behalf at any time?
p. 141Ms. Groff.No.
p. 141Mr. Bell.Did you have any kind of warning or advance knowledge that the FBI was going to search Mr. Epstein's home in New York City on July 6th and 7th, 2019?
p. 141Ms. Groff.No.
p. 141Mr. Bell.Did you ever remove any photographs from that home?
p. 141Ms. Groff.No.
p. 141Mr. Bell.Cameras?
p. 141Ms. Groff.No.
p. 141Mr. Bell.Files?
p. 141Ms. Groff.No.
p. 141Mr. Bell.Hard drives?
p. 141Ms. Groff.No.
p. 141Mr. Bell.Or other documentary or electronic material from his home in advance of that search?
p. 141Ms. Groff.No.
p. 141Mr. Bell.Did you instruct anyone to do so?
p. 141Ms. Groff.No.
p. 141Mr. Bell.Are you aware of anyone removing such items from the home prior to the search?
p. 142Ms. Groff.No.
p. 142Mr. Bell.Did you have any kind of warning or advance knowledge that the FBI was going to raid Mr. Epstein's island Little Saint James on August 12th, 2019?
p. 142Ms. Groff.No.
p. 142Mr. Bell.Did you remove any photographs from Epstein's island Little Saint James?
p. 142Ms. Groff.No.
p. 142Mr. Bell.Files?
p. 142Ms. Groff.No.
p. 142Mr. Bell.Any cameras?
p. 142Ms. Groff.No.
p. 142Mr. Bell.Hard drives?
p. 142Ms. Groff.No.
p. 142Mr. Bell.Any other documentary or electronic material from his home in advance of that search?
p. 142Ms. Groff.No.
p. 142Mr. Bell.Did you instruct anyone to do so?
p. 142Ms. Groff.No.
p. 142Mr. Bell.Are you aware of anyone removing such items from the island before the raid?
p. 142Ms. Groff.No.
p. 142Mr. Bell.I think that's all I have. Ms. . Thank you. Representative Walkinshaw.
p. 142Mr. Walkinshaw.Thank you, Mrs. Groff. In January of 2024, President Trump posted on Truth Social: "I was never on Epstein's Plane, or at his 'stupid' Island." On December 23rd, 2025, the DOJ released a January 2020 internal email from an Assistant U.S. Attorney in the Southern District of New York, reported on by multiple outlets, and that email reads: "For your situational awareness, wanted to let you know that the flight records we received yesterday reflect that Donald Trump traveled on Epstein's private jet many more times than previously has been reported or that we were aware, including during the period we would expect to charge in the Maxwell case. "In particular, he is listed as a passenger on at least eight flights from between 1992 and 1996, including at least four flights on which Maxwell was also present." Ms. Groff, obviously, the flight records described predate your employment with Mr. Epstein, but I want to focus on the time that you were working for him, February of 2001 and onward. During your tenure working for Mr. Epstein, did you ever arrange, confirm, or log any travel for Mr. Trump or his family?
p. 143Ms. Groff.No.
p. 143Mr. Walkinshaw.Anyone identifying themselves as acting on his behalf aboard any of the aircraft that belonged to Mr. Epstein?
p. 143Ms. Groff.No.
p. 143Mr. Walkinshaw.Were you ever instructed by Mr. Epstein or anyone else to handle any Trump-related travel or correspondence through any channel other than your normal scheduling procedures?
p. 143Ms. Groff.No.
p. 143Mr. Walkinshaw.Okay. Were you aware at any point during or after your employment that Mr. Trump's Mar-a-Lago club had been subpoenaed in the Maxwell case?
p. 143Ms. Groff.No.
p. 143Mr. Walkinshaw.Did you ever communicate directly or indirectly with anyone at Mar-a-Lago in connection with any law enforcement or grand jury inquiry into either Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell's conduct?
p. 144Ms. Groff.No.
p. 144Mr. Walkinshaw.Okay. Switching gears, during your time of employment with Mr. Epstein, were you aware that Virginia Giuffre, at the time known as Virginia Roberts, had been recruited from Mar-a-Lago into Epstein's orbit in or around the summer of 2000?
p. 144Ms. Groff.No.
p. 144Mr. Walkinshaw.Did you ever arrange travel scheduling or compensation for Ms. Giuffre in your capacity as Mr. Epstein's assistant?
p. 144Ms. Groff.I don't recall. I don't recall.
p. 144Mr. Walkinshaw.Did you have any knowledge or awareness of any meetings between Mr. Epstein and Ms. Giuffre, Ms. Roberts at the time?
p. 144Ms. Groff.Did I ever coordinate a meeting?
p. 144Mr. Walkinshaw.Or did you have any knowledge of any meetings?
p. 144Ms. Groff.It's possible. I don't know. It was a really long time ago. But it's possible.
p. 144Mr. Walkinshaw.So it's possible that you had knowledge of those meetings?
p. 144Ms. Groff.Well, if I was directed to make an appointment, it's possible, but Palm Beach was not really my area of where I was booking appointments.
p. 144Mr. Walkinshaw.Okay. So it's possible that you arranged scheduling related to Ms. Giuffre's role which you believed was as Mr. Epstein's -- one of his assistants. You might have.
p. 144Ms. Groff.I didn't know what her position was.
p. 144Mr. Walkinshaw.But it's possible you scheduled meetings between --
p. 144Ms. Groff.An appointment. It's possible.
p. 144Mr. Walkinshaw.Okay. Did you arrange or is it possible that you arranged any travel or compensation for Ms. Giuffre in that time period?
p. 145Ms. Groff.I don't recall. I don't know.
p. 145Mr. Walkinshaw.Okay. And did you have any awareness of travel or compensation being arranged for Ms. Giuffre?
p. 145Ms. Groff.No. I don't recall.
p. 145Mr. Walkinshaw.Okay. Thank you. That's all I have.
p. 145Ms. Tlaib.Do I get recognized or just go? Mr. . Go ahead.
p. 145Ms. Tlaib.Go ahead. Do you have something to say?
p. 145Ms. Groff.No.
p. 145Ms. Tlaib.Okay. Where were you based primarily?
p. 145Ms. Groff.I was only based in New York.
p. 145Ms. Tlaib.New York. Okay. Did you do travel for him? I know you probably got asked this before. Did you book travel for him?
p. 145Ms. Groff.I did book some travel for him.
p. 145Ms. Tlaib.Even for his guests?
p. 145Ms. Groff.Yes, for his guests, as well as him.
p. 145Ms. Tlaib.Was President Trump any of his guests when you booked travel for him?
p. 145Ms. Groff.I never booked travel for Mr. Trump.
p. 145Ms. Tlaib.But he was never -- he was never one of the guests that you booked travel for?
p. 145Ms. Groff.Correct.
p. 145Ms. Tlaib.Okay. What did you receive from the Epstein estate? I know you sued them. You sued the Epstein estate. How much money did you receive from them?
p. 145Mr. Whitcomb.Just for clarification by counsel, she never sued the Epstein estate.
p. 146Ms. Tlaib.Okay. You all sued.
p. 146Mr. Whitcomb.We made -- no, no. We made a claim, but we didn't commence a lawsuit.
p. 146Ms. Tlaib.Okay. Oh, you settled out of court?
p. 146Mr. Whitcomb.Correct.
p. 146Ms. Tlaib.Okay. For the record, he pointed that you settled out of court. You did get something. Are you allowed to tell us how much you got through the settlement?
p. 146Mr. Whitcomb.Yes. Yes. I think several hundred thousand dollars.
p. 146Ms. Tlaib.Okay. You don't have the exact amount. So 200,000?
p. 146Mr. Whitcomb.$300,000 --
p. 146Ms. Tlaib.300,000.
p. 146Mr. Whitcomb.-- approximately of legal -- for reimbursement of legal fees.
p. 146Ms. Tlaib.Okay. Did you ever witness women crying?
p. 146Ms. Groff.No.
p. 146Ms. Tlaib.Coming out of -- because you said you booked massages for him, right?
p. 146Ms. Groff.Early in my employment, yes.
p. 146Ms. Tlaib.Yes. When you booked the massages, you had to call the women and arrange it?
p. 146Ms. Groff.As directed, Mr. Epstein would tell me who to call, yes.
p. 146Ms. Tlaib.And you called them.
p. 146Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 146Ms. Tlaib.You had all their numbers and everything, right?
p. 146Ms. Groff.He would sometimes provide a number.
p. 146Ms. Tlaib.Yeah.
p. 146Ms. Groff.And a name.
p. 147Ms. Tlaib.And you never saw any of them come out crying?
p. 147Ms. Groff.I didn't work at his home.
p. 147Ms. Tlaib.Okay.
p. 147Ms. Groff.I only worked out of the Helmsley Palace.
p. 147Ms. Tlaib.Any of them when you called them said, "No, I don't want to come"?
p. 147Ms. Groff.No.
p. 147Ms. Tlaib.Okay. And you don't know how old the youngest was that you booked --
p. 147Ms. Groff.No.
p. 147Ms. Tlaib.-- massages for?
p. 147Ms. Groff.No.
p. 147Ms. Tlaib.Did they even sound young on the phone?
p. 147Ms. Groff.I don't know.
p. 147Ms. Tlaib.Okay. You don't know? Okay. You said you arranged travel for his guests. Were any of them the women that you booked massages for?
p. 147Ms. Groff.No.
p. 147Ms. Tlaib.Okay. During the time that you worked for Mr. Epstein, what was your understanding of his relationship with President Trump?
p. 147Ms. Groff.I just merely would connect Mr. Epstein with Mr. Trump --
p. 147Ms. Tlaib.By phone?
p. 147Ms. Groff.-- on the phone, on the phone. That was it.
p. 147Ms. Tlaib.Did their relationship change over time?
p. 147Ms. Groff.Over time, there just were no more phone calls to Mr. Trump.
p. 147Ms. Tlaib.Okay. Was Mr. Trump calling Mr. Epstein and then Mr. Epstein telling you, "I don't want to talk to him"?
p. 148Ms. Groff.I don't recall, no, that, no.
p. 148Ms. Tlaib.No. Okay. What was your understanding of why their relationship ended?
p. 148Ms. Groff.At the time, I did not know why their relationship ended.
p. 148Ms. Tlaib.Okay. Have you ever met Mr. -- President Trump?
p. 148Ms. Groff.No.
p. 148Ms. Tlaib.Okay. When -- or has President Trump ever discussed Mr. Epstein with you when you called him?
p. 148Ms. Groff.No.
p. 148Ms. Tlaib.Okay. Did Mr. Epstein ever discuss President Trump with you at all?
p. 148Ms. Groff.No.
p. 148Ms. Tlaib.Never mentioned. Just said, "Hey, can you get him on the phone for me?"
p. 148Ms. Groff.Correct.
p. 148Ms. Tlaib.It was just like, "Get him on the phone for me."
p. 148Ms. Groff.Correct.
p. 148Ms. Tlaib.Was it a number of times per day? Was it more than one year than the other?
p. 148Ms. Groff.No.
p. 148Ms. Tlaib.Okay.
p. 148Ms. Groff.It was just sporadic. Every so often.
p. 148Ms. Tlaib.Every week? Every month?
p. 148Ms. Groff.I wouldn't say so, no.
p. 148Ms. Tlaib.Every month?
p. 148Ms. Groff.Maybe once a quarter. I don't know.
p. 148Ms. Tlaib.You don't know.
p. 148Ms. Groff.I don't kinow.
p. 149Ms. Tlaib.Did Mr. Epstein ever discuss President Trump with you?
p. 149Ms. Groff.No.
p. 149Ms. Tlaib.Okay. Did Maxwell ever have access to any of Mr. Epstein's bank accounts or any financial accounts?
p. 149Ms. Groff.I don't know.
p. 149Ms. Tlaib.Did Ms. Maxwell ask you to arrange travel for any of his guests?
p. 149Ms. Groff.No.
p. 149Ms. Tlaib.For any of the young women?
p. 149Ms. Groff.No.
p. 149Ms. Tlaib.Okay. Could you please describe any accounts that Ms. Maxwell had access to?
p. 149Ms. Groff.I don't know what accounts she had access to.
p. 149Ms. Tlaib.Any financial accounts?
p. 149Ms. Groff.I don't know.
p. 149Ms. Tlaib.Okay. Would anything involve visas that you had to deal with, like applying for visas for travel?
p. 149Ms. Groff.The only visas that I helped apply for were for Mr. Epstein twice, once for Russia, once for Japan.
p. 149Ms. Tlaib.Okay. Are you sure about that?
p. 149Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 149Ms. Tlaib.You're positive?
p. 149Ms. Groff.I never applied for a visa for anyone else.
p. 149Ms. Tlaib.And you never arranged any travel for any of his other guests?
p. 149Ms. Groff.Well, I arranged travel for his guests.
p. 149Ms. Tlaib.And they were all domestic travel?
p. 149Ms. Groff.No.
p. 150Ms. Tlaib.Did you ever have to apply for visas for any of his guests?
p. 150Ms. Groff.I did not apply for visas.
p. 150Ms. Tlaib.What I mean by that is you submitted the documents or you gave the documents to the guests and have them -- like, tell them you have to do this or that to get the visa. No?
p. 150Ms. Groff.No, never.
p. 150Ms. Tlaib.To come to the United States?
p. 150Ms. Groff.Correct. I never supplied anyone with visa documents to fill out.
p. 150Ms. Tlaib.Okay. When all of this, obviously, slowly came out, have you seen photos and images and testimony from some of the survivors of Epstein?
p. 150Ms. Groff.I've seen some of it.
p. 150Ms. Tlaib.Do you recognize any of them? This is my last question. Do you recognize any of them?
p. 150Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 150Ms. Tlaib.Yes?
p. 150Ms. Gross.Yes.
p. 150Ms. Tlaib.Did you -- any of those women, did you have to arrange massages for him with them?
p. 150Mr. Whitcomb.Just objection to form. She said one woman she recognized so far.
p. 150Ms. Tlaib.One woman?
p. 150Mr. Whibcomb.Sarah Kellen.
p. 150Ms. Tlaib.Did you arrange -- did she arrange massages -- did you arrange massages for him, Mr. Epstein, with her?
p. 150Ms. Groff.No.
p. 150Ms. Tlaib.Okay. That's it. Thank you. Mr. . Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
p. 151Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Thank you. I'm Raja Krishnamoorthi from Illinois. Look, I presume that if Jeffrey Epstein ever asked you to arrange a massage with an underage person or a minor, you would have objected, right?
p. 151Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 151Mr. Krishnamoorthi.And I also presume that if Epstein asked you to contact a minor or underage person to set up an appointment, you would have said something or objected, right?
p. 151Ms. Groff.Absolutely. [Groff Minority Exhibit G. was marked for identification.]
p. 151Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Okay. Let me introduce to you exhibit G. Can you please share that with Ms. Groff? I'll just show you a couple emails that we found that have your name on them and they're with a couple different people. I'm going to direct your attention to the first page of this stack. It has the Bates number EFTA, and it ends with -- it's R100744270, and it says from Lesley Groff to redacted. "Hello [redacted]: Hope you are having a nice weekend. Jeffrey will be in town Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and would like to see you. Might you have some time? Please let me know. Lesley." You see that, right? At the bottom of the chain.
p. 151Ms. Groff.Uh-huh.
p. 151Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Okay. And then redacted responds: "Dear Lesley, thank you for your email. What about tomorrow evening? Would he have some time?" You see that email, right?
p. 151Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 151Mr. Krishnamoorthi.And then you respond: "Actually, would Tuesday evening work for you? Anytime after 6 p.m." You see that email, right?
p. 152Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 152Mr. Krishnamoorthi.And then the last email in this chain is: "Tuesday I'm at school till 10 p.m. We have orchestra rehearsal for the concert on Friday." Now, at that moment when you received that email, did you believe that this person was not an underage person or a minor?
p. 152Ms. Groff.I would not have suspected at all that this would be an underage person or a minor.
p. 152Mr. Krishnamoorthi.So it's your testimony today that you would not have suspected that this person is an underage person or a minor when that person responds that they have orchestra rehearsal in the evening in response to your question about whether they're available, right? That's your testimony?
p. 152Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 152Mr. Krishnamoorthi.And you're under oath.
p. 152Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 152Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Okay. Let me just turn your attention to another page in this document, which is another email, okay? It has the Bates stamp -- it's the third page in this stack -- EFTA, underscore R1, underscore 00615858. Do you see that?
p. 152Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 152Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Okay. Let me start this text -- this email chain again. It says -- and this is from Monday, December -- I'm sorry, Sunday, December 13th at 6:05 p.m., 2014 -- 2015. So 14 years into your tenure. "Hi [redacted]...Jeffrey will be in New York this week and is asking if you could come see him on Tuesday...after work? 5:30?" Do you see that?
p. 153Ms. Groff.Uh-huh.
p. 153Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Okay. Redacted responds: "Hello Lesley. I have school Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday nights." Do you see that? You respond: "Ah, okay, how about tomorrow day?" Do you see that?
p. 153Ms. Groff.I do.
p. 153Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Ms. Groff, she says: "I'm working 8:30-5:30 and school 6-9." At that moment when you saw that, it's your testimony that you did not believe that person was either underage or a minor, correct?
p. 153Ms. Groff.Correct.
p. 153Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Okay. And you respond: "You are a busy girl!!! I will let Jeffrey know...thanks." So it's your testimony that when you are sending these emails and people respond to you that they're in school or that they have orchestra rehearsal, that you believe that they are not a minor or an underage person. That's your testimony today, right?
p. 153Ms. Groff.That is correct.
p. 153Mr. Krishnamoorthi.You're under oath.
p. 153Ms. Groff.Yes, that is correct.
p. 153Mr. Krishnamoorthi.You want us to believe that after 18 years working in the employ of Mr. Jeffrey Epstein that not on one occasion did you believe that any of your contacts in setting up these appointments with Jeffrey Epstein were with either a minor or an underage person, correct?
p. 153Ms. Groff.That is correct.
p. 153Mr. Krishnamoorthi.And that we should believe that it was reasonable for you to think that none of these people were underage.
p. 154Ms. Groff.That is correct.
p. 154Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Okay. This strains credibility, Ms. Groff. I yield back.
p. 154Mr. Garcia.Thank you, Ms. Groff. I have a couple questions. I just want to go back real briefly to something that my colleague just said. So these conversations that he just pointed out for these emails, they happened after Epstein's conviction. Is that correct?
p. 154Ms. Groff.Correct.
p. 154Mr. Garcia.And so it never crossed your mind after a conviction of an obviously very -- a horrific crime against an underage woman, that these interactions that you were having with other women that were talking about school, orchestra practice, that never raised any concern to you?
p. 154Ms. Groff.No.
p. 154Mr. Garcia.So not once were you concerned, after knowing that Jeffrey Epstein was convicted of abuse of a minor, that you had any sort of concerns that you were having conversations with other women who were talking about school and orchestra practice. Is that correct? Is that your testimony?
p. 154Ms. Groff.That is my testimony. I never saw anything inappropriate.
p. 154Mr. Whitcomb.She answered the question.
p. 154Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 154Mr. Garcia.You never saw anything, but Jeffrey had been convicted already, and you knew that information, correct?
p. 154Ms. Groff.I did.
p. 154Mr. Garcia.Okay. I want to just go back to something else. Thank you. So, Ms. Groff, I just want to go back to something that was being asked earlier. I know you had mentioned that you had arranged multiple phone conversations with then Donald Trump, not the President yet, of course, and Mr. Epstein. And then, just for the record again, you did connect them by phone a few times, correct?
p. 155Ms. Groff.Correct.
p. 155Mr. Garcia.Was that more than five times, more than ten times? Do you have any idea how many times you connected them by phone?
p. 155Ms. Groff.I don't know how often I connected him. There would be, I said, once a quarter, maybe, or twice. If Epstein was in town and he wanted to speak to Mr. Trump, it might take me four times to get the two of them on the phone. But I don't know how often that really occurred.
p. 155Mr. Garcia.And it's safe to say it could have been multiple times a year?
p. 155Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 155Mr. Garcia.Okay. So multiple times a year over a period of ten years?
p. 155Ms. Groff.Yeah. I don't really recall when they stopped talking.
p. 155Mr. Garcia.And then did you also arrange any meetings between Mr. Epstein and Mr. Trump, separate of just phone calls?
p. 155Ms. Groff.It's possible. I don't recall anything offhand.
p. 155Mr. Garcia.Okay. But it's possible you could have arranged meetings, but you don't recall if there was a meeting. Did you arrange any services for Mr. Trump that Mr. Epstein was providing, separate of any phone call or meeting?
p. 155Ms. Groff.No.
p. 155Mr. Garcia.Would you characterize their relationship as a friendship?
p. 155Ms. Groff.I really don't know what the relationship was. I didn't hear them speaking. I don't know.
p. 155Mr. Garcia.Because Mr. Epstein has characterized it as a friendship. In fact, Mr. Epstein said that he considered them actually best friends for a period of ten years. Have you ever heard that in the media or anything else before?
p. 156Ms. Groff.I have not. Mr. . And, Ms. Groff, earlier when we asked you about Mr. Epstein's relationship with Les Wexner, you were willing to provide your opinion that they were friends as well as business partners. So to the Congressman's question, how would you characterize the relationship of Mr. Trump and Epstein?
p. 156Ms. Groff.I mean, I suppose they were friendly. I don't know if they had any business going on. That wasn't something that I asked. That's not something I discussed with Mr. Epstein or Mr. Trump, so I don't really know. It's possible that they were friendly.
p. 156Mr. Garcia.Even though you connected them multiple times a year by phone and possibly for meetings, that you're not aware of, correct?
p. 156Ms. Groff.Yes. I don't know what they discussed or what the meetings were for. It's possible they were friendly. It's possible they spoke business. I don't know what it was about.
p. 156Mr. Garcia.Did you ever see a photo of Mr. Epstein and Mr. Trump on Mr. Epstein's desk?
p. 156Ms. Groff.I don't know.
p. 156Mr. Garcia.You don't? Because I know you worked right outside of his office.
p. 156Ms. Groff.I did.
p. 156Mr. Garcia.Did you oftentimes go inside Mr. Epstein's office?
p. 156Ms. Groff.I would go into his office after he would leave to pick up the garbage that he threw on the floor and put it in the trash can. I didn't go in there very often.
p. 156Mr. Garcia.But after working for him for 18 years in different periods of time in different locations, you don't recall what photos may have been on his desk?
p. 156Ms. Groff.It's been too long ago. I don't know. He did have photos of important people on his desk with him and important people.
p. 157Mr. Garcia.But you've never heard it reported that he had a photo -- I mean, it's been widely reported by every major news outlet that he had a photo of President Trump on his desk. I know that you worked into his office. You don't recall or never heard that there was a photo of President Trump on his desk?
p. 157Ms. Groff.It's very possible that there was, but I don't recall seeing an actual photo per se of him with Trump.
p. 157Mr. Garcia.And don't recall hearing in the media apparently, right?
p. 157Ms. Groff.I don't.
p. 157Mr. Garcia.Okay. No, I appreciate that. Are you familiar about -- are you familiar with the birthday book that was provided to Mr. Epstein for his birthday that's been widely reported?
p. 157Ms. Groff.I am now after his death and I've heard about that, yes.
p. 157Mr. Garcia.But during your employment you were not involved or aware or made any sort of inquiries about the book at the time, the Ms. Maxwell project. Is that correct?
p. 157Ms. Groff.Correct, from what I understand.
p. 157Mr. Garcia.And you have no information about the book or its creation. Would that be --
p. 157Ms. Groff.That is correct.
p. 157Mr. Garcia.Would it be possibly at the time Ms. Maxwell's assistant or anyone else you think could have been involved in the process of that book besides Ms. Maxwell?
p. 157Ms. Groff.I don't know. It's possible she could have had an assistant help her with something, but I don't know. I wasn't involved in that. But it wouldn't be unlikely that someone might help her with something.
p. 157Mr. Garcia.Just last, before I just turn it back, I just want to go back, because I think it's an important point that's been brought up. You know, it's difficult to understand how after knowing that what Jeffrey Epstein had done -- and up to a minor -- that you would continue to set up appointments with other young women, other women, for Mr. Epstein and not ever once doubt that there could be something happening in those moments. You never -- that you, completely regardless of what happened -- again, I'll give you another opportunity to explain it -- but you never once had any doubt that there could be something there happening to these women.
p. 158Ms. Groff.At the time it was -- I felt like everyone in the office he was lying to, and he was a very good liar and a very good manipulator. And he brushed things under the rug. He led me to believe that accusations were false. And when I looked around, everybody who was smart, all his business associates, all his -- sorry.
p. 158Mr. Garcia.Continue.
p. 158Ms. Groff.Yeah. All his associates remained friends with him, remained friendly, kept meeting with him. It was --
p. 158Mr. Garcia.Ms. Groff, you also admit, though, that -- you know he pleaded guilty.
p. 158Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 158Mr. Garcia.So he pleaded guilty, that he was guilty of the crime, yet you still didn't believe that plea.
p. 158Ms. Groff.I believed that he was tricked. He was -- it was not something -- it was not his fault. It was tricked and it was a big scheme.
p. 158Mr. Garcia.Okay. Thank you. Ms. . Thank you, Ms. Groff. We will stop here. For clarity of the record, we had questions from Representative Bell and also Representative Tlaib, who didn't previously introduce themselves into the record. We'll now go off the record. [Recess.]
p. 159QIn our last hour, we talked a lot and were getting into the details about scheduling all kinds of appointments for Mr. Epstein. Just a general question. We mentioned the schedules and we've reviewed the schedules as well, but Mr. Epstein took multiple appointments a day every single day. Is that correct?
p. 159ACorrect.
p. 159QDo you know why, what the purpose of taking so many meetings was?
p. 159AI don't know why. He was a businessman.
p. 159QAnd now I would like to introduce majority exhibit 7. [Groff Majority Exhibit No. 7. was marked for identification.]
p. 159QThis is a compilation of some of those individual calendars that were sent from your email account to Jeffrey Epstein. There are examples that we received from the estate of Jeffrey Epstein. The first calendar, the Bates number is House Oversight 00110. I can give you a moment to review.
p. 159AYou just want me to look at all of them?
p. 159QYes. I'm going to ask you some questions about specific individuals on this list. But, again, these are representative of what a normal day in Mr. Epstein's life looked like and what you were responsible for scheduling?
p. 159AYes.
p. 159QI'm going to start just on the first page. I'm going to work through a couple individuals on this list and ask you a set of questions for each individual. I'm going to start with Tom Pritzker. What did you understand his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein to be?
p. 159AI think he knew Tom Pritzker even before my time. They were friendly. But I don't know. We didn't discuss it.
p. 160QAnd was he a frequent visitor of Mr. Epstein?
p. 160AI wouldn't say frequent. I guess when he was in town, they'd get together.
p. 160QAnd what was the purpose of their meetings?
p. 160AI don't know.
p. 160QWere you ever present in any of these meetings?
p. 160ANo.
p. 160QDid you ever overhear parts of the meetings or were you told about what was discussed?
p. 160ANo. My office was way in the front of the house. His meetings all occurred in the dining room, which was on the other side of the house. I was far away.
p. 160QAnd did you ever engage with Mr. Pritzker directly?
p. 160ANot that I recall.
p. 160QI'm going to move next to Frederic Fekkai. What did you understand his relationship with Mr. Epstein to be?
p. 160AI guess they were friendly. I don't really know.
p. 160QAnd was he a frequent visitor of Mr. Epstein?
p. 160AI wouldn't say frequently. Probably whenever he was in town. Same sort of thing.
p. 160QAnd do you know the purpose of their meetings?
p. 160ANo.
p. 160QWere you ever present in any of the meetings?
p. 160ANo.
p. 160QDid you ever overhear discussions from the meetings?
p. 160ANo.
p. 160QDid you ever interact or engage in conversation with Mr. Fekkai?
p. 161ANo. I don't think I ever met him.
p. 161QDid you ever see any unusual or concerning activity taking place during his meetings with Mr. Epstein?
p. 161ANo.
p. 161QNext I'm going to ask about Leon Black. Same set of questions. What did you understand his relationship to be with Mr. Epstein?
p. 161AI thought they had a business relationship. I thought he was one of Epstein's clients.
p. 161QAnd was he a frequent visitor of Mr. Epstein?
p. 161ALeon was probably more frequent, yes.
p. 161QWas there any frequent basis with meetings with Mr. Epstein? Monthly? Weekly?
p. 161ANot weekly. Monthly probably.
p. 161QAnd what was the purpose of their meetings?
p. 161AI don't know.
p. 161QAnything besides business, as you mentioned?
p. 161AI don't know. I don't know what they --
p. 161QAnd were you ever present in any of these meetings with Mr. Black?
p. 161ANo.
p. 161QDid you ever overhear discussions or were you told about conversations from any of these meetings?
p. 161ANo.
p. 161QDid you ever speak or engage with Mr. Black directly?
p. 161ANo.
p. 161QDid you ever see any unusual or concerning activity taking place during his meetings with Mr. Epstein?
p. 161ANo.
p. 162QWere any young women or girls ever present for his meetings with Mr. Epstein?
p. 162ASome traveling assistants may have been around the house and brought in coffee, but I don't know. I didn't sit in the meetings, so I don't know.
p. 162QNext I'm going to turn to Larry Summers. What did you understand Mr. Summers' relationship with Mr. Epstein to be?
p. 162AFriendly.
p. 162QAnd then same lines of questioning. Was he a frequent visitor of Mr. Epstein?
p. 162AI wouldn't say frequent.
p. 162QDo you know the purpose of his meetings with Mr. Epstein?
p. 162AI do not.
p. 162QAnd were you present for any of the meetings?
p. 162ANo.
p. 162QDid you overhear any conversations --
p. 162ANo.
p. 162Q-- from their meetings?
p. 162ANo.
p. 162QAnd now I'm going to ask about -- his name appears on page 2, but it is Jes Staley. What did you understand his relationship to be with Mr. Epstein?
p. 162AI thought that was business.
p. 162QDo you know what kind of business?
p. 162ANo. Banking? I don't know.
p. 162QWas he a frequent visitor of Mr. Epstein?
p. 162AWhen Mr. Epstein would be in town, they would probably get together. I wouldn't say every time that Mr. Epstein was in town, but Jes would come by.
p. 163QDo you know the purpose of his meetings with Mr. Epstein?
p. 163AI do not.
p. 163QWere you ever present for any of the meetings between Mr. Epstein and Mr. Staley?
p. 163ANo.
p. 163QDid you ever overhear conversations or discussions about the meetings with Mr. Staley?
p. 163ANo.
p. 163QDid you ever speak with or engage with Mr. Staley directly?
p. 163AI might have in passing said hello to him, but we didn't engage in conversation.
p. 163QDid you ever see any unusual or concerning activity take place during his meetings with Mr. Epstein?
p. 163ANo.
p. 163QWere young women or girls present for the meetings?
p. 163ANo. I mean, it could be the same traveling assistants that brought in a cup of coffee or something, but like I said, I wasn't back there.
p. 163QAnd I think we're just going to go through another name or so here. On page -- the back of page 3, Bill Gates is listed. What was your understanding of Mr. Gates' relationship with Mr. Epstein?
p. 163AI didn't know what their relationship was. Friendly is what I assumed.
p. 163QWas he a frequent -- I know this is a meeting at a different location -- but was he a frequent visitor of Mr. Epstein?
p. 163AMr. Epstein tended to go and meet Mr. Gates. [3:42 p.m.]
p. 164QElsewhere?
p. 164AElsewhere. He was, like, the one person that Mr. Epstein tended to go and meet versus have him at his home.
p. 164QDo you know why?
p. 164AI don't. I don't.
p. 164QDid Mr. Gates ever come to the New York residence for meetings?
p. 164AI don't know.
p. 164QDo you know the purpose of their meetings?
p. 164ANo.
p. 164QWere you ever present for any of the meetings?
p. 164ANo.
p. 164QDid you ever overhear discussions about what went on in the meetings?
p. 164ANo.
p. 164QDid you ever engage with Mr. Gates directly?
p. 164ANo.
p. 164QDo you know if young women or girls were ever present in their meetings?
p. 164ANo.
p. 164QAnd one more here. Ariane de Rothschild?
p. 164AUh-huh.
p. 164QWhat was the nature of his relationship to Mr. Epstein?
p. 164AI thought she was a client.
p. 164QHer. Sorry. Was she a frequent visitor of Mr. Epstein?
p. 164ANo.
p. 165QDo you know the purpose of their meetings?
p. 165ANo.
p. 165QWere you ever present?
p. 165ANo.
p. 165QDid you ever overhear conversations?
p. 165ANo.
p. 165QDid you ever engage with her directly?
p. 165ANo.
p. 165QAnd then -- sorry -- one more name here. Alan Dershowitz. What did you understand his relationship to be with Mr. Epstein?
p. 165AHe was his attorney.
p. 165QAnd was he a frequent visitor of Mr. Epstein's?
p. 165ANo.
p. 165QDo you know the purpose of their meetings?
p. 165ANo.
p. 165QWere you ever present?
p. 165ANo.
p. 165QDid you overhear discussions --
p. 165ANo.
p. 165Q-- from their meetings? Did you engage with Mr. Dershowitz yourself?
p. 165ANo. Maybe in passing, hello, but that was it.
p. 165QAnd then we've already covered -- Ms. Ruemmler would be the last one I would ask you about, but we already covered the nature of their relationship, so I have just one general question around her for scheduling. Were young women or girls ever prohibited from being scheduled on the same day or around the same time as when Ms. Ruemmler would come to meet with Epstein?
p. 166ANo.
p. 166Ms. Brignac.Did you ever believe that Ms. Ruemmler had a romantic relationship with Mr. Epstein?
p. 166Ms. Groff.No.
p. 166Mr. Timmons.So, from 2001 to 2006, you were responsible for Epstein's schedule. Is that correct?
p. 166Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 166Mr. Timmons.And you scheduled many massages. Just approximately how many a day or a week? I mean, a couple times a week? Every day?
p. 166Ms. Groff.I would say, you know, possibly daily, but there were definitely times when he would not have a massage.
p. 166Mr. Timmons.So, on average, three or four times a week?
p. 166Ms. Groff.Well, it would only be when he was in New York, which was usually typically 3 days.
p. 166Mr. Timmons.Okay. And you said earlier -- remind me how many -- during that period of time, how many different massage therapists do you think you scheduled, ballpark?
p. 166Ms. Groff.Different? It's difficult for me to say. I don't know.
p. 166Mr. Timmons.Dozens?
p. 166Ms. Groff.Ten --
p. 166Mr. Timmons.Hundreds?
p. 166Ms. Groff.-- to 20. Fifteen. I don't --
p. 166Mr. Timmons.Okay. I think you said 30 earlier, but okay.
p. 166Ms. Groff.Okay. Thirty.
p. 167Mr. Timmons.So just a dozen?
p. 167Ms. Groff.Yeah.
p. 167Mr. Timmons.A dozen or two dozen. And you never -- did you ever interact with a massage therapist individually during that time period?
p. 167Ms. Groff.No.
p. 167Mr. Timmons.So he was arrested in 2006. When did you -- and you said you never scheduled a massage after he got out of jail in 2010. After his arrest, before he went to jail, did you ever schedule any massages during that time?
p. 167Ms. Groff.I'm sorry. After his --
p. 167Mr. Timmons.Between 2006 and 2010.
p. 167Ms. Groff.2006 and 2010? No. I mean, well, he was --
p. 167Mr. Timmons.He was in jail from 2008 sort of.
p. 167Ms. Groff.Right. So it's possible. Between 2006 and 2008, I don't -- I don't recall.
p. 167Mr. Timmons.Okay. But you do recall specifically that when he got out of jail, there were no more massages?
p. 167Ms. Groff.Correct.
p. 167Mr. Timmons.Okay. And you're aware that he -- when did you read the non-prosecution agreement? When were you made aware of that?
p. 167Ms. Groff.I believe that was after he went to jail.
p. 167Mr. Timmons.Okay.
p. 167Ms. Groff.Uh-huh.
p. 167Mr. Timmons.And is it -- what is your current -- when he went to jail and got out, what was your understanding of the reason that he went to jail?
p. 167Ms. Groff.The reason he went to jail was procuring an underage prostitute or solicitation of a prostitute.
p. 168Mr. Timmons.Okay. Did you know anything surrounding the incidents that they were charging him with?
p. 168Ms. Groff.No.
p. 168Mr. Timmons.Did you then or do you now?
p. 168Ms. Groff.No. I don't know how it occurred. Is that what you mean?
p. 168Mr. Timmons.Sure. So, basically, he had a number of different people that were procuring underage women or of-age women and scheduling massages and then either soliciting them by paying them extra money or physically sexually assaulting them and raping them. And someone finally told somebody, and that's how he got arrested. And there were issues with the case, and so he pled guilty, and here we are. So, I mean, I would imagine that his lawyers included the people that were scheduling these massages. Sarah Kellen was horrified that she was on there as well, but she acknowledged that she scheduled massages as well. So his attorneys probably included that. So what time of day, generally speaking, between 2001 and 2006 did -- were these massages scheduled generally? Were they in the morning?
p. 168Ms. Groff.Daytime.
p. 168Mr. Timmons.Were they in the evening? Daytime?
p. 168Ms. Groff.Yeah. Daytime.
p. 168Mr. Timmons.Okay. I'm going to fast-forward to post-2010. So it seems that from 2010 really to 2012, 2013, he went on a sprint to find a group of women that he would leverage to put them in his service. I'm going to refer to them as the seven survivors. I don't really consider to be a survivor. I think that she was elevated above what she was originally brought in for. So these seven survivors were brought into the U.S. They were all young, they were all very attractive, and they are methods of control and they are tools of control. And whether you realize you were critical to the tools and the methods of control is one question, but, I mean -- I guess I just want to talk about them. So there's credit cards. So Epstein and Indyke -- well, would take out credit cards in their names. They would create businesses in their names -- these seven women that were, quote-unquote, assistants -- and he would then leverage their finances. He gave a place to stay, and you are aware they all stayed in the same house with the exception of . I asked you earlier about the PIN numbers. So it's my understanding that you controlled the PIN numbers for the doors of their apartments and to be very careful because they -- did you have the ability to change, did you ever change, did you control, did you know the codes into their apartments?
p. 169Ms. Groff.I never changed any codes. There were codes on the --
p. 169Mr. Timmons.Did you know the codes to their apartments?
p. 169Mr. Whitcomb.Please let her answer, sir.
p. 169Ms. Groff.I did know the codes on the apartments, but I had nothing to do with them. It --
p. 169Mr. Timmons.Did you ever change the codes?
p. 169Ms. Groff.No. No.
p. 169Mr. Timmons.Would you be surprised if there's an email from you stating that you changed the code?
p. 169Ms. Groff.Well, maybe there was something wrong with a code. I don't -- I don't know.
p. 169Mr. Timmons.Okay. So you could have changed the code?
p. 169Ms. Groff.Well, they were very difficult machines. I don't know that -- I never went in and changed a code myself.
p. 169Mr. Timmons.So you have tools of control and methods of control. Epstein would tell the victims -- the survivors -- that their PIN number would be changed if they didn't do what he said. He did not give them leases. They were there at his benevolence, just yet another one of his methods of control. The tool was the apartment, the ability to control whether they were able to go into their apartment, and he did that through you. But again, you didn't know. So computers and phones. He gave them their computers and their cell phones, and he told them that they were being surveilled so that they could do whatever they wanted, but just know that he was watching. So does that surprise you that he would say that to them?
p. 170Ms. Groff.I had -- I did not know that that is what he was telling them. I had zero knowledge of that.
p. 170Mr. Timmons.Okay. So let's talk about flights and hotels. No, let's go to hair appointments. As a part of your employment, were you allowed to get your hair done at a fancy day spa?
p. 170Ms. Groff.I did every so often.
p. 170Mr. Timmons.Okay. Is it Fekkai?
p. 170Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 170Mr. Timmons.But only two of the seven were -- three of the seven were allowed to get their hair appointments done without his specific approval? There's an email. I can get it for you.
p. 170Ms. Groff.Okay.
p. 170Mr. Timmons.So why would -- do you have it? Why would you control whether his assistants got access to hair appointments?
p. 170Ms. Groff.I didn't control when his assistants --
p. 170Mr. Timmons.There's an email with you and , and you say -- in your email, it says, Jeffrey says that me and two of the seven survivors are authorized to make our own appointments. Is that not strange?
p. 170Mr. Whitcomb.Sir, she wasn't even able to answer your last question. So you just have to let her answer the question, please.
p. 170Mr. Emmer.At this time, I would like to introduce what will be marked as Majority Exhibit 8. [Groff Majority Exhibit No. 8. was marked for identification.]
p. 171Mr. Whitcomb.She's happy to answer your questions, but --
p. 171Ms. Groff.Yeah.
p. 171Mr. Whitcomb.-- you've got to let her finish, respectfully.
p. 171Mr. Emmer.We'll give you a moment to review the document.
p. 171Mr. Timmons.So the king giveth and the king taketh away. So, if you don't do what he says, if you don't act right, if you don't smile, if you don't cooperate with every single one of his requests, then you lose things. You could lose access to your computer, your phone. You could lose access to getting your hair appointments. It's just difficult that all of this was going on and you were in the middle of it, and it was just -- you didn't see it?
p. 171Mr. Bachner.See what, the hair appointments?
p. 171Mr. Timmons.Didn't see the way that he was using all of these different levers of control to engage in sex trafficking, and the seven survivors, as they entered your office, who were going to be sexually assaulted.
p. 171Mr. Bachner.So I don't --
p. 171Mr. Timmons.This is just -- you didn't know until he got arrested?
p. 171Ms. Groff.Everyone was very, very happy. No one came to me ever and showed me any duress, said that they were unhappy. From my perspective, it seemed like everyone was really happy to be there. No one ever said anything to me that they were unhappy or being abused.
p. 171Mr. Timmons.Did you ever suspect that the seven survivors were engaging in sexual activity with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 171Ms. Groff.No. No.
p. 171Mr. Timmons.Your job requires you to be very perceptive. What percent of these women entered your office, waited for however long, went back for however long, and left looking different than they came in?
p. 172Ms. Groff.I'm sorry. About getting their hair cut, or --
p. 172Mr. Timmons.You would notice if I had wet -- if I had wet hair or I had no hair because I have no hair. But, if you came into my office and went into somebody else's office and came out a half hour later with wet hair, I would go, what the hell just happened?
p. 172Ms. Groff.I didn't see anybody with wet hair. This was a professional office, professional area. I did not see anything inappropriate. People went and got their hair cut and would come back, and that was it. I --
p. 172Mr. Timmons.The seven survivors will testify eventually that, about one-third of the time that they would go back, the assault was so bad that they had to take a shower and/or clean off. So the fact that you never saw any of them leave with wet hair is somewhat surprising.
p. 172Ms. Groff.I don't recall ever seeing anyone with wet hair leaving his office, his home.
p. 172Mr. Timmons.Let's talk about immigration. Did you ever -- are you aware that Mr. Epstein used immigration as a tool of control for the victims?
p. 172Ms. Groff.No.
p. 172Mr. Timmons.Did you ever engage in any efforts to facilitate citizenship applications for any of the seven survivors?
p. 172Ms. Groff.The only thing I did was help with travel. I did not -- and that was per directed. And it seemed to me that anybody that asked that I was booking for travel for wanted this to happen. I was under no -- there were no signs to me that they did not want to be there. No one said anything to me.
p. 172Mr. Bachner.And, just for the -- and, just in all fairness, we don't know the identity of these seven survivors. She may be able to surmise, but we're kind of answering a question without knowing the identity, but --
p. 173Mr. Timmons., , , , , , . I imagine you know who they are.
p. 173Ms. Groff.I recognize those names.
p. 173Mr. Timmons.If we were to believe you that you had no knowledge of any of this, let's turn to the people that just had to have some. Indyke and Kahn were central to the money and the legal hula-hoops it had to go through in order to pull this off. Do you think it's possible that -- would it surprise you to know that, without their knowledge, Epstein and Indyke used the Social Security numbers of the seven survivors to create businesses, take out loans, and create lines of credit in an effort to trap them into a maze of financial insolvency?
p. 173Ms. Groff.I don't think that anybody did anything without Mr. Epstein's directive. He was very, very controlling. I don't know, and I don't know about any of that.
p. 173Mr. Timmons.But, if he directed you to -- if he directed you to schedule a massage with a 12-year-old, you would say no?
p. 173Ms. Groff.I would say no. Absolutely. One hundred percent.
p. 173Mr. Timmons.Okay. So, if he directed Indyke to pull a line of credit and create a business without the knowledge of one of his other alleged assistants -- I mean, you have fiduciary obligations to the person you are engaging with. So it would actually be illegal for someone to take out a line of credit or create a business or take out a credit card in someone's name that is not the individual, so -- or is that just gray area?
p. 173Ms. Groff.I don't --
p. 173Mr. Bachner.Are you asking if she is aware that he was doing that?
p. 173Mr. Timmons.Would that -- is that something that he should not do?
p. 173Ms. Groff.I think that's -- yeah, I don't think that that is -- that's nothing that I know about. I am unaware of any lines of credit or anything being taken out or, you know, LLCs, whatever you said.
p. 173Mr. Timmons.Can you appreciate all of the different levels of control that he created to put these women into this situation?
p. 174Ms. Groff.I didn't -- I knew --
p. 174Mr. Timmons.Do you understand now? Do you understand now?
p. 174Ms. Groff.In hindsight, I can step back and see how that could have -- how he could have wanted it to be like that. At the time, I thought it was all things that these --
p. 174Mr. Bachner.He's asking you now what you -- do you see how he could have done that now?
p. 174Ms. Groff.Yes, I could see, stepping back and seeing how -- like you said, monitoring them, but not back then. Not back then.
p. 174Mr. Timmons.So I've talked to three of the victims, and every time their name is on appointment with blank, they said that about 98 percent, they were sexually assaulted and raped, and there's -- they felt trapped. And I guess you are to have us believe that that was completely oblivious to you. I don't have any more questions. Thank you.
p. 174QAnd, just to turn back to exhibit 8 for a few more questions, this email is Bates-stamped EFTA02248430. This is -- the bottom email appears to be an email written by you, Ms. Groff, to Jeffrey Epstein. Did you schedule hair appointments for women associated with Mr. Epstein at Mr. Fekkai's salon?
p. 174AYes.
p. 174QWhy were you the one scheduling them?
p. 174ABecause I was Mr. Epstein's secretary and he would direct me to make the appointment.
p. 174QAnd what was the arrangement between Mr. Fekkai and Mr. Epstein for his hair appointments?
p. 174AI believe that Mr. Epstein had an account there. So, whenever somebody went, the appointment would just be paid with the credit card on the account.
p. 175Ms. Brignac.And who were the women that were receiving haircuts?
p. 175Ms. Groff.Definitely the traveling assistants, but he could send other friends, I suppose, at times.
p. 175QAnd, in this email, you state, "I want to make sure it is okay with you for the girls to make their own hair appointments at Fekkai. Do they have your permission?" Why did they need Mr. Epstein's permission to go?
p. 175ABecause it was his money that they were using, and Frederic Fekkai hair appointments are expensive.
p. 175QAnd why did Mr. Epstein -- we've heard from numerous people that Mr. Epstein dictated the style, color, everything about the haircut they would receive. Do you know why he would do that?
p. 175AI did not know that at the time. Since we've been prepping for this testimony, I have learned that that was something he did, but I did not know at the time.
p. 175QAnd are you aware of any instances or did you -- any women come to you with any allegations about Mr. Fekkai abusing a young woman or girl?
p. 175ANo.
p. 175Mr. Emmer.We've had another staff member join. Can he please identify himself for the record?
p. 175Mr. Giachetti.Ryan Giachetti, chief counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 175QDid you ever schedule medical appointments for any women associated with Mr. Epstein?
p. 175ANot that I recall offhand.
p. 176QNow, I'm going to introduce as majority exhibit 9 -- this is a chain of emails between you, Ms. Groff, and Jeffrey Epstein. The email is dated April 7th, 2014, and is Bates-stamped EFTA01928773. [Groff Majority Exhibit No. 9. was marked for identification.]
p. 176QI'll give you a moment to review the email.
p. 176AUh-huh.
p. 176QSo, in the email, you write at the top, "One of the doctors Eva gave us could give a partial exam to redacted this Saturday, April 12th. He says he could probably be available from 1:00 to 4:00 p.m." And it continues on, "Dr. Neil Vorus says it is too much to do in one day for an entire exam. He is concerned that she speaks Polish as a first language. How fluent is redacted in English? I keep being asked this." It continues on, but that is probably all we need for the purpose of the questions. Do you recall sending this email?
p. 176AI do not recall this email.
p. 176QDo you know what type of exam you were booking for what appears to be a Polish-speaking woman?
p. 176AI believe she's taking some sort of written exam for some -- to be -- I don't know -- to be a doctor or a nurse. It's some sort of exam that this person wants to take.
p. 176QDr. Neil Vorus is a registered clinical psychologist. Do you know if this was for any kind of psychological evaluation?
p. 176AOh, I don't know.
p. 176QWas Mr. Epstein paying for this test or appointment?
p. 177AI don't recall this email, so it's hard for me to say. Mr. Epstein did pay for a lot of people to, you know, go to school.
p. 177QAnd do you know if this appointment was for the purpose of placing this woman on any kind of medication?
p. 177AI have no idea.
p. 177QAnd was scheduling medical appointments or anything of this kind common practice in your role as Mr. Epstein's secretary?
p. 177ACommon practice? No.
p. 177QDo you know how frequently you might have scheduled appointments like this for other women?
p. 177AI don't recall ever -- I don't recall even making this appointment. I don't -- I don't know.
p. 177Ms. Brignac.You just testified that he paid for things frequently like school. So is this a unique circumstance?
p. 177Ms. Groff.A unique circumstance? Yeah, I don't recall this. She wants to go take an exam. I don't know what kind of exam, but he did pay for people to go to school.
p. 177Ms. Brignac.But you never questioned why he would be paying for this person's medical appointment?
p. 177Ms. Groff.I don't know that it's a medical appointment.
p. 177Ms. Tolan.Neil Vorus is a registered psychologist who we understand him to be, so it appears that she's taking some kind of psychological evaluation or something of the sort.
p. 177Ms. Groff.But I don't know -- I didn't know what -- I don't know what kind of doctor Dr. Neil Vorus is. It was someone that -- what -- Eva, Jeffrey's friend -- Mr. Epstein's friend --
p. 177Ms. Brignac.Ms. Groff --
p. 177Ms. Groff.Yeah.
p. 177Ms. Brignac.-- can you explain what you meant by "he does not do this kind of testing in his clinic"?
p. 178Ms. Groff.I don't know. I don't know. He does not do -- I don't remember this, so I'm sorry. I wish I could tell you more, but I really -- I don't know what this was. Was she taking an exam to become a --
p. 178Mr. Bachner.If your answer is you don't know what it is, then that's your answer.
p. 178Ms. Groff.I don't know. I don't know what it is.
p. 178QAnd is this Eva -- do you know -- is that referring to Eva Dubin?
p. 178AYes.
p. 178QAnd do you know her involvement? Did she ever conduct medical evaluations, or did she organize medical appointments for women associated with Mr. Epstein?
p. 178ANot that I recall.
p. 178QI think that's all the questions we have on this exhibit. Just generally, did you schedule any other kind of appointments for young women or girls associated with Mr. Epstein?
p. 178ANo.
p. 178QAnd then just some brief questions I know you were asked in the last hour, but some brief questions about your role in booking travel, transportation. In your role as Mr. Epstein's secretary, did you often book travel or transportation?
p. 178AI did after Sarah Kellen left. Prior to that, it was more Sarah or other people in the office.
p. 178QDo you know what year that was?
p. 178AI want to say 2013, 2012, something like that, when she was --
p. 178Ms. Brignac.Why did Sarah Kellen leave?
p. 178Ms. Groff.Because she got married.
p. 179QDid you book flights as part of your job?
p. 179AYes.
p. 179QFor Mr. Epstein?
p. 179AThere was a time when his plane wasn't working, so, yes, I would book flights for him commercial through Amex Centurion.
p. 179QDid you book flights for any of his guests?
p. 179AYes.
p. 179QAny of his friends?
p. 179AIt's possible.
p. 179QDo you recall any specific instances where you did?
p. 179ANot offhand.
p. 179QDid you book flights for Ms. Maxwell?
p. 179AI don't believe so. I think she always flew on his airplane.
p. 179QDid you book flights for any other assistants of Mr. Epstein?
p. 179ATraveling assistants, yes.
p. 179QDid you plan travel for Mr. Epstein as well?
p. 179AWould I schedule his --
p. 179QAny itineraries, book any activities, book appointments in a location he would be traveling to?
p. 179AYes.
p. 179QAnd now, we've already discussed how a majority of your tasks involved making calls, taking messages, communicating back and forth with Mr. Epstein, scheduling appointments. Is that all a fair characterization?
p. 179AYes. [Groff Majority Exhibit No. 10. was marked for identification.]
p. 180QI would now like to introduce what will be marked as majority exhibit 10. This is FBI notes from the sworn statement that you gave to the FBI on September 24th, 2021. It is Bates-marked EFTA01246216. She's going to get that passed out, and we'll give you some time to review. In the meantime, I'm just going to ask you some general questions about the interview, if that's okay.
p. 180ASure.
p. 180QSo you were interviewed by the FBI on September 24th, 2021, related to the investigation into Mr. Epstein. Is that correct?
p. 180ACorrect.
p. 180QWhy did you provide this testimony?
p. 180AI did so voluntarily.
p. 180QWere you interviewed by the FBI or any law enforcement agency on any other occasion?
p. 180ANo. No.
p. 180QDid you provide any evidence, documents, or other materials to the FBI?
p. 180ANo.
p. 180Mr. Bachner.Just so I'm -- yeah. It's not a sworn statement, but it is her statement.
p. 180Ms. Tolan.It's notes from her statement but not sworn?
p. 180Mr. Bachner.Yeah. It's just not sworn.
p. 180Ms. Tolan.Okay. Thank you.
p. 180QAnd then we'll give you a second to review.
p. 180AOkay. You want me to read this whole entire thing?
p. 181QYou do not have to read it if you remember. I have some specific questions, and I can point you to --
p. 181AQuestions that you can guide me?
p. 181QYes, if you would like me to begin.
p. 181AUh-huh.
p. 181QSo, on page 2, you state that Mr. Epstein would give you a call list of who you were supposed to -- or of who he wanted to see and have appointments with. I think we've already discussed that in length, but you would receive that daily -- is that correct -- and then make appointments accordingly?
p. 181AYes.
p. 181QOn page 2, you mentioned that you were responsible for making all phone calls, including calling the chef and the driver. Is that accurate?
p. 181AYes.
p. 181QWhat would you coordinate with each of them about?
p. 181AThe driver for when Mr. Epstein wanted to be picked up and where he was supposed to be picked up. Give the driver an address for when he wanted to leave the house and be sure to be outside and ready to go, type of thing. The chef would be, if he wanted his chef to bring lunch over to the office, or it could be that he -- you know, whatever he wanted for breakfast, lunch, or dinner and just coordinate that with the chef and make sure that he's ready at the right time with whatever it is Mr. Epstein wanted to eat.
p. 181QAnd were those conversations happening daily?
p. 181AOh, yes.
p. 181QAnd on page 3, you mentioned you would coordinate with the pilots of Mr. Epstein's plane. Is that correct?
p. 181AYes.
p. 182QWhat would you coordinate with the pilots about?
p. 182AThe time that he wanted to leave, the day he wanted to leave. Usually, that would be -- that would be it.
p. 182QWould you inform the pilots about guests Mr. Epstein was bringing on his plane?
p. 182AYes. That could be possible, too, about who was going to be traveling on the flight.
p. 182QAnd were those frequent communications as well with the pilots?
p. 182AI mean, yes. It would be whenever he was going to be traveling.
p. 182QAnd then on page 3, you also mentioned you would coordinate or you would schedule business meetings, architects, and designers. Is that also correct?
p. 182AYes.
p. 182QWhat would you coordinate with each of them about?
p. 182AWell, the business meetings, it was just all his associates that I would coordinate meetings with, be it at his office or at his home. Architects, I recall buying tickets for them to fly in. They would provide architectural plans. Mr. Epstein never seemed to be satisfied with any of the architects. And the designers, they would come and visit him. I would make appointments with them, possibly buy them air travel as well, and just coordinate phone calls with all these people as well.
p. 182QAnd just again, so the record is clear, we've talked about your role in scheduling business meetings a lot of different times today. Is it your testimony that you did not have knowledge about the purpose and what went on in each of these meetings?
p. 182AThat is correct.
p. 182QYou just scheduled?
p. 182AMerely scheduled. Correct.
p. 182Ms. Brignac.In your opening statement, I believe you said something to the effect of you were thrust into the lives of the rich and famous, but your testimony has sounded like you were kept at an arm's length and that this was very humdrum work, not as exciting as you said it was. Can you help clarify my confusion?
p. 183Ms. Groff.Sure. Sure. It was exciting just to know that you're talking to these people's offices. I was not their friends, but it's more exciting than just speaking to, you know, the neighbor or the regular businessman. These were all very important people. You know, it was exciting. Even though I had no relationship with these people, it was still -- it was better than just working at your average accounting office and speaking to, you know, a bunch of accountants. Nothing wrong with accountants. I just mean these were movie producers, you know, record producers, businessmen, Wall Street businessmen, government people. You know, it was not normal.
p. 183QAnd you also mentioned on page 8 that Mr. Epstein would tell you to find a trader on a few occasions. Is that correct?
p. 183AI'm sorry. Page 8?
p. 183QYes.
p. 183AOkay. Where are you?
p. 183QIt should be near the top of the page. You mentioned Epstein asking you to find a trader.
p. 183AOh, I think this is about a certain incident. Just bear with me one second. Yes. I recall one time Mr. Epstein wanted to make a trade, and it was something -- if you know about trading things, stocks move and every second matters, and I believe that -- I recall him calling and telling me to get this person on the phone. In my head, I was like, why is he not just calling the person if it's so important that he gets this done, you know, right away? The stock is going to move, and I felt -- I remember I had to find the phone number for the trader. And, you know, that was it. It was just one of those incidents, yeah, that was nerve-racking for me.
p. 184QJust a one-time occurrence?
p. 184AIt's -- I definitely remember that one occurrence. I'm not saying I didn't connect him to a trader another time.
p. 184QAnd then a few quick questions. You mentioned it briefly about how exciting the work was. Did you enjoy working as an assistant for -- or secretary, apologies -- for Mr. Epstein?
p. 184AI did at the time.
p. 184Ms. Brignac.Can you elaborate?
p. 184Ms. Groff.It was exciting. It was challenging. It was super, super busy. It was -- it was not like a regular -- a regular job as an assistant. It was just hair on fire, lots of commotion. People don't own islands and airplanes and homes in other parts of the world. It was just -- it was exciting, not like -- not like just a regular job.
p. 184QAnd how did Mr. Epstein treat you as -- or how did he treat you as your boss?
p. 184AAs my boss, he was professional. He did not get close to me. If you asked him, I bet you he would not have even known my husband's name or my son's name. It was not that kind of relationship. He would demand no mistakes, but I liked the challenge. I did get in trouble at times, but I also felt like I was good at coordinating and managing his phones and calling people and organizing his day, and I felt value from that, and -- but we were not friends. We did not socialize. I did not -- I did not see him outside of work, and it was all on purpose.
p. 184QAnd you mentioned it just then and in your opening statement as well an instance where a mistake was made and he put you on probation, I believe, you termed it. Can you explain what that --
p. 184AThat is correct.
p. 184Q-- meant?
p. 185AYes. So they had told me that I should not socialize with anybody that he spoke to. Their friends were not my friends. I did get invited to a party, and I went with my husband. And he found out the next day, and I definitely was more than just reprimanded. It was very scary. He was very powerful. He had this aura around him. You sat up straighter whenever he would walk into the office.
p. 185Ms. Brignac.What did it mean that you were put on probation?
p. 185Ms. Groff.On probation, I think it was for a month. And, you know, if I made any other errors, I would get fired.
p. 185QWere you not working for the month that you were put on probation?
p. 185AOh, no. I was there. I was working, yeah, and being very careful.
p. 185QWhat did probation mean, then?
p. 185AI think he was just watching for -- if I made any errors, I would get fired.
p. 185QAnd, during your time working for Mr. Epstein, was Ms. Maxwell -- was she ever in a supervisory role to you? Did you ever work under her?
p. 185AI did not work under her.
p. 185QWhat did you understand her role to be?
p. 185AI thought she was the office manager.
p. 185QAnd how did she act towards you and other staff?
p. 185AShe was cordial. She was professional. We didn't really interact much. When she would come into the office, she would sweep through, sit at her desk. She had an assistant. I did not report to her.
p. 185QWho?
p. 185ATo Ms. Maxwell.
p. 186QWho was Ms. Maxwell's assistant?
p. 186AOh, sorry. It changed over time. It was first , and then it was -- I'm sorry -- . No. Was it ? I'm sorry. I'm drawing a blank. After -- yes. Yes. moved back to be her assistant, and we hired a new receptionist.
p. 186QHow long did you work with ?
p. 186AShe was let go when he went to jail, so in 2009.
p. 186QWhy?
p. 186AWe had to downsize the office. Others were also let go.
p. 186QWho else?
p. 186A, who was the attorneys' assistant. At this time, I believe it was who was the receptionist. And that might have been -- that might have been it.
p. 186QDid you hear why they were let go specifically?
p. 186AIt was just that we were downsizing the office and it wasn't going to be as busy.
p. 186QIn your role as secretary for Mr. Epstein, did you ever work alongside Richard Kahn?
p. 186ANo.
p. 186QDid you ever conduct work or assist Richard Kahn with his accounting operations?
p. 186ANo.
p. 186QDid you work alongside Darren Indyke?
p. 186AI did a short period of time when he was in jail, yes.
p. 186QWhat was your position working for him?
p. 186AAssistant.
p. 186QAnd what were you helping him with?
p. 186AFiling, calls, making his calls, connecting him to people. It was -- it was not nearly as exciting.
p. 187QAnd what period of time was that?
p. 187AThat was about 2009. It was when he went to jail. And then after he was released, I was still working a little bit for Mr. Indyke, but then he did get an assistant himself.
p. 187QAnd you've mentioned traveling assistants of Mr. Epstein's throughout the course of today's interview. Do you know who those traveling assistants were?
p. 187AYes. Do you want me to tell you all the names or just --
p. 187QIf you know them, yes, please.
p. 187ASure. When I first started, it was . And then it was Sarah Kellen, and she stayed for a long time. There was , , , , . Those are the ones that come to mind --
p. 187QOkay. Thank you.
p. 187A-- and were around. Uh-huh.
p. 187Ms. Brignac.And, out of all of those employees, was there any office gossip about him going to jail or any speculation about his affinity for young women or girls?
p. 187Ms. Groff.No.
p. 187QAnd then just a few general questions about your compensation and benefits. I think you mentioned it in a previous hour and you said in your opening statement your starting salary was $50,000. Is that correct?
p. 187AYes.
p. 187QDid that ever increase or change throughout the years?
p. 187AIt did.
p. 187QWhat did it increase to, or what was the max amount you received?
p. 187AThe max amount, I believe, was 150-, and that was only for 1 year, and it went down.
p. 187QWhy did it go down?
p. 188AWell, it went down when he went to jail. Yeah.
p. 188QAnd how were payments made to you? Were they direct from Epstein or through an Epstein-owned entity?
p. 188AI know it was direct deposit into my account.
p. 188QDo you know if that was coming straight from Mr. Epstein, or were you employed by an entity?
p. 188AI don't recall. I think it was an entity, but I just always considered it, you know, from Mr. Epstein.
p. 188QDid you or your family ever receive financial assistance with any of the following things as part of your compensation for your role: Any help with housing?
p. 188ANo.
p. 188QAny payments for medical appointments?
p. 188AThere may have been some medical and dermatology appointments, yeah.
p. 188QAny cosmetic surgeries?
p. 188ACosmetic surgeries?
p. 188QYes. Like, did Mr. Epstein ever --
p. 188ALike Botox?
p. 188QAnything like that, yes.
p. 188AYes.
p. 188QHe paid for it?
p. 188AYes, he did.
p. 188QOn multiple occasions?
p. 188AI did that and Accutane, actually. So Accutane was definitely for a while, yes.
p. 188QAnd did he pay for you or any of your family members for education?
p. 188AMy son's preschool.
p. 189QFor how many years did that continue?
p. 189AIt was 3 years.
p. 189QAnd then it stopped?
p. 189ACorrect.
p. 189QAny other personal expenses that Mr. Epstein paid for for you or your family?
p. 189AHe paid one time for me to go to Miami with a girlfriend of mine.
p. 189QWere you ever listed as the beneficiary of any trust owned by Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 189AA beneficiary?
p. 189QYes.
p. 189AWas that the Butterfly Trust?
p. 189QJust if you remember any -- being listed ever.
p. 189ANo. No.
p. 189QDid you ever receive a payout from any trust owned by Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 189ANo. No.
p. 189QDid you ever receive gifts from Mr. Epstein?
p. 189AI received haircuts. I think I received -- I got to go get makeup done one time, hair and makeup done, you know, that sort of thing.
p. 189QDid he ever pay for any cars for you?
p. 189AOh, yes. He did pay for a car that I was able to use, yes.
p. 189QWere you only able to use it in your capacity as secretary for him?
p. 189AWell, I could drive it wherever I wanted at home. Once he went to jail, I had -- I gave the car back.
p. 189QDid Mr. Epstein also pay for gifts for other assistants?
p. 189AI think that other assistants had some nice things. Oh, I had a gym -- a gym membership with Equinox. And I think he -- that was pretty -- everybody wanted to go to the gym, and he paid for Equinox.
p. 190QDid you ever receive any personal loans from Mr. Epstein?
p. 190AThe only loans were the loans that we've discussed, the -- for salary compensation, but that was it.
p. 190QDid Mr. Epstein ever provide you or help you acquire real estate?
p. 190ANo.
p. 190QDid Mr. Epstein ever set up a business or LLC in your name --
p. 190ANo.
p. 190Q-- for you? Did you ever ask Mr. Epstein for any other personal favors?
p. 190ANo.
p. 190QIs there any other remuneration that we have not covered that you received from Mr. Epstein?
p. 190AI don't think so.
p. 190QAny bonuses? Anything like that?
p. 190AOh, I probably got bonuses, $5,000 here and there, and then maybe a year or two, I didn't get any bonus. But, yeah, they were part of the compensation package, I guess.
p. 190QAnd what was the reason for those bonuses, if they came?
p. 190AIt was a Christmas gift or Christmas bonus.
p. 190QAnd in your opinion, would Mr. Epstein's generosity towards you or other assistants later become transactional? Did he expect things in return?
p. 190AOh, no.
p. 190QEven loyalty? Was that part of his way of keeping people loyal to him? Do you feel that way?
p. 190AI do not think that he was -- I thought he was a generous person.
p. 191Mr. Bachner.She's asking about now.
p. 191Ms. Groff.Oh, now. Oh, I'm sorry. Stepping back, I can see that that would -- could be the case that he was doing that to control people.
p. 191Ms. Tolan.But, at the time, did you feel like it?
p. 191Ms. Groff.At the time, no. I thought he was just a generous person and didn't have a family to dote on, and I think that he was -- liked to give people gifts.
p. 191Ms. Brignac.Ms. Groff, this is a vast amount and number of gifts that we've seen contributed towards you and other assistants to include major cosmetic surgeries and a Mercedes-Benz. Did you, in fact -- whether you understood it to be intended to extract loyalty or not, did you, in fact, feel more loyal to him at the time because of these major gifts?
p. 191Ms. Groff.I thought they were very nice. I don't know that it made me feel more loyal. I just thought it was a very generous, nice thing to do.
p. 191QAnd then just a few general questions. We're almost to the end of our hour. I know you said these in your statement -- in your opening statement and covered them a little bit, but just again, which Epstein residences did you visit during your time as his secretary?
p. 191AHis island three times, his Paris guest apartment once, and his mansion on 71st Street after 2013.
p. 191QAnd, when you visited the island, Mr. Epstein was not present for any of those visits. Is that correct?
p. 191AHe was not present. I did not see him when I was on the island.
p. 191QAnd was he present when you visited his residence in Paris?
p. 191ANo.
p. 191QDid you keep keys or did you have security access to any residences?
p. 191ANo.
p. 192QDid you ever see any unusual artwork or photographs inside any of Mr. Epstein's homes?
p. 192AIn 71st Street, he had what we all know as that painting of President Clinton in the blue dress.
p. 192QDo you know anything about that painting?
p. 192ALike, where it came from? No, I don't.
p. 192QYes. Where it came from, why he had it.
p. 192AI do not.
p. 192QDo you know if President Clinton had any involvement --
p. 192AI do not.
p. 192Q-- in that painting? Did you ever see any nude paintings or photographs of young women in the house?
p. 192ANo.
p. 192QAnd I think you mentioned this already, but did you ever travel on any of Mr. Epstein's private airplanes?
p. 192ANot on his airplanes. I took the one helicopter ride. That was it.
p. 192QAnd when was that?
p. 192AThat was when I went to go visit a construction -- his construction projects the one time.
p. 192QAnd numerous victims have alleged that young victims were forced to carry out sex acts and Mr. Epstein and his guests conducted group sex with girls on Mr. Epstein's private aircraft. It's even nicknamed the Lolita Express. Are you familiar with any of these allegations?
p. 192AOnly after his -- 2019.
p. 192Ms. Tolan.Okay. We'll end our hour there. We'll go off the record. [Discussion off the record.] Ms. . We'll go back on the record. BY MS. :
p. 193QMs. Groff, I would like to ask you a few more questions about the offices that you worked in. I know we talked about this earlier, but I would like to clarify some things. So, for the office on 457 Madison Avenue, you worked there from 2001 to 2009, correct?
p. 193AYes.
p. 193QAnd your office was next to Mr. Epstein's, but you wouldn't necessarily see people come in and out because the door -- your office door was sometimes closed, correct?
p. 193AThat's correct, as well as there was a door prior to getting to my office that would go into his office.
p. 193QGot it. Starting in 2009, you worked out of an apartment at 301 East 66th Street, correct?
p. 193AYes.
p. 193QAnd you were there from 2009 to, you think, 2011 or 2012?
p. 193AThat sounds right, yes.
p. 193QDid Mr. Epstein ever work out of 301 East 66th Street?
p. 193ANo.
p. 193QAnd then, in 2012, you went to a building on Lexington. Is that correct?
p. 193AYes.
p. 193QDo you know the address of that building?
p. 193AI think it was 575 Lexington.
p. 193QAnd you were there until 2013 when you started working out of his home at 9 East 71st Street, correct?
p. 193AYes. I believe those are around the proper dates. 2013, 2014.
p. 193QAnd Mr. Epstein worked at the Lexington office. Is that right?
p. 193ANo. No. Never.
p. 194QSo who was at the Lexington office?
p. 194ASure. So it was the accountant, Rich. The attorney, Darren Indyke. It was Harry Beller, the trader. , the assistant to the accountant. And that was who was there first. And then Harry Beller left, and then we had an assistant to Mr. Indyke.
p. 194QSo the only two properties that you worked at that Mr. Epstein also worked at were the first one, 457 Madison Avenue, and then the last one, 9 East 71st Street, correct?
p. 194ACorrect. Yes.
p. 194QI would like to ask you a few questions about Leon Black. Were you ever aware of Mr. Epstein paying women who had been in relationships with Mr. Black?
p. 194ANo.
p. 194QWere you ever aware of Mr. Epstein being involved in negotiation of nondisclosure agreements with women who had been in relationships with Mr. Black?
p. 194ANo.
p. 194QTo your knowledge, how many times did Mr. Black visit Mr. Epstein's island?
p. 194AIsland? I didn't know he did visit Mr. Epstein's island.
p. 194QOkay. I would like to ask you some questions about Jes Staley. To your knowledge, how many times did Mr. Staley visit Mr. Epstein's island?
p. 194AI don't know.
p. 194QAre you aware of Mr. Staley ever visiting Zorro Ranch?
p. 194AI am not.
p. 194QWere you ever aware of Mr. Staley having sex with a member of Mr. Epstein's staff?
p. 194ANo.
p. 194QMs. Groff, we have asked you a lot of questions today about specific people. Is there anyone that we have not asked about that you have knowledge of being involved in any of Mr. Epstein's sex crimes?
p. 195ANo.
p. 195QIs there anyone that you think the committee should talk to for its investigation to get a better sense of Mr. Epstein's crimes and his sex trafficking operation?
p. 195AUh-huh. I don't -- I don't think so. I don't -- I mean, maybe Alan Dershowitz. I don't know if you can, though, because he's his attorney. I don't know.
p. 195QWhy do you say Alan Dershowitz?
p. 195ABecause he was his attorney.
p. 195QAnyone else?
p. 195ANo.
p. 195QI would like to ask you some questions about the investigation into Mr. Epstein that started in 2005. You talked about this earlier and said that you spoke to law enforcement in the fall of 2007. Is that correct?
p. 195AI think it was August of 2007. Is that right? Yes.
p. 195QAnd you said that when FBI agents came to your home, you went upstairs and then you called Darren Indyke, correct?
p. 195AYes. [Groff Minority Exhibit H. was marked for identification.] BY MS. :
p. 195QI would like to introduce as minority exhibit H this plea proffer from United States v. Jeffrey Epstein, which was released by the Department of Justice in January of this year. The Bates number is EFTA00213369. It is an excerpt of a larger document.
p. 195AThanks.
p. 195QSo the relevant pages state that, as you said, on August 21st, 2007, FBI agents went to your home to speak with you about Mr. Epstein. The document says that, after FBI agents arrived, you excused yourself to go upstairs and then called Mr. Epstein. The document then says that Mr. Epstein, quote, "instructed Ms. Groff not to speak with the agents." Is this plea proffer incorrect?
p. 196AI believe it is. I don't know how they would know that. I really believe that I called Mr. Indyke. It's not -- I wouldn't call Mr. Epstein. [4:56 p.m.] BY MS. :
p. 197QThe document then says that Mr. Epstein, quote, "applied pressure to keep Ms. Groff from complying with the grand jury subpoena that the agents had served upon her. And that Mr. Epstein, quote, "warned Ms. Groff against turning over documents and electronic evidence responsive to the subpoena and pressured her to delay her appearance before the Federal grand jury in the Southern District of Florida." Do you have any memory of Mr. Epstein applying pressure to keep you from complying with his subpoena or warning you against turning over documents and evidence.
p. 197ANone. No.
p. 197QThank you.
p. 197AUh-huh.
p. 197QI'd like to ask you some questions about the period of time that Mr. Epstein was incarcerated. Were you aware of him --
p. 197Mr. Bachner.I'm sorry. First time or second time? Ms. . First time. Thank you.
p. 197Mr. Bachner.You're welcome. BY MS. :
p. 197QWere you aware of him video calling women while he was incarcerated?
p. 197ANo. No.
p. 197QDo you know at what point you learned that he was video calling women when he was incarcerated?
p. 197AIt was after Sarah Kellen's testimony.
p. 197QSo, as you know, during his incarceration at the Palm Beach Stockade, Mr. Epstein secured a work release that allowed him to leave the Stockade for up to 12 hours a day 6 days a week, ostensibly, to work at the office of the Florida Science Foundation in Palm Beach. Did you have any role in securing Mr. Epstein his work release while he was incarcerated?
p. 198ANo.
p. 198QSo you didn't prepare any documents related to the work release?
p. 198ANo.
p. 198QWhat about to the Florida Science Foundation?
p. 198ANo.
p. 198QDo you know what the Florida Science Foundation was?
p. 198AI do not.
p. 198QDo you know who was involved with the creation of the Florida Science Foundation?
p. 198ANo.
p. 198QDid you ever visit the Florida Science Foundation office in Palm Beach?
p. 198AI did twice.
p. 198QWhen was that?
p. 198AIt was during whenever he -- sometime in 2008, '9. 2008 probably.
p. 198QSo one visit was in 2008 and one was in 2009, or you can't quite remember?
p. 198AI can't remember. I don't know exactly when they were, but it was obviously when, you know, he had his work release.
p. 198QSure. Do you have a sense of the time of year, maybe?
p. 198AIt was Florida. It was nice out. I really -- I don't recall.
p. 198QWhat was the purpose of those visits?
p. 198AIt was to help coordinate a list of scientists, make phone calls. We set up an appointment -- I set up appointments, you know, just basic administrative things.
p. 198QWhy did you need to visit the office to do those things?
p. 198AI think he just wanted a semblance of normalcy. I don't know. He didn't tell me why. I ordered some office supplies, you know. It was just mundane.
p. 199QWere there young women who worked in the Florida Science Foundation's office?
p. 199AI don't know who was employed there. His traveling assistants, Sarah was there.
p. 199QDo you remember any other young women there?
p. 199AI believe she's the only one -- traveling assistant I saw, yes.
p. 199QDid you ever organize or schedule anyone to visit Mr. Epstein at the Florida Science Foundation office?
p. 199AYes. Marvin Minsky and his wife Gloria. They came and visited him. Darra Torres came one day. His attorneys would come in a lot. I know that Story Cowles was there, the paralegal.
p. 199QCould you say that name again, please?
p. 199AIt's Cowles, C-o- -- I'm not sure how to spell it. Cowles. C-o-w-l-e-s. I'm trying to remember who else. I mean, I definitely know the attorneys. I saw his pilot come in, Larry Visoski. Igor, his security guard and workout instructor.
p. 199QDid you ever see, or were you ever aware of minor girls and young women visiting him in that office, not young women who worked for him?
p. 199ANo. No.
p. 199QWere you ever aware of any allegations that Mr. Epstein had sexually abused girls or women at the Florida Science Foundation office?
p. 199ANot until we were preparing for this testimony and, yeah, things came out.
p. 199QDid you have any knowledge of Jes Staley visiting Mr. Epstein while he was on work release?
p. 199AI don't recall that.
p. 199QOkay. At any point between 2008 and 2019, were you aware of other investigations into Mr. Epstein?
p. 199ANo.
p. 200QSo you were never contacted by law enforcement during that period?
p. 200ANo.
p. 200QOn July 18th, 2019, Federal prosecutors with the Southern District of New York provided your attorneys with a reverse proffer in an attempt to get you to meet with them for a proffer to explain your role in Mr. Epstein's operation. Do you remember if you ended up meeting with Federal prosecutors?
p. 200AI did, right? Yes. Yes, I did. Yes.
p. 200QAnd were you ever contacted by law enforcement as part of the investigation into Ms. Maxwell?
p. 200ANo. Ms. . Did you ever set up bank accounts for any minor girls or young women associated with Mr. Epstein?
p. 200Ms. Groff.No. BY MS. :
p. 200QYou talked earlier about the apartments at 301 East 66th Street. I have just a few clarifying questions for you. Is it correct that Mr. Epstein had access to 10 apartments in that building?
p. 200AThat sounds correct that he had 10 apartments, uh-huh.
p. 200QAnd two of them were used as office spaces?
p. 200APrior to that time period, uh-huh.
p. 200QFor the time period that --
p. 200AOf 2008 to '11 or '10.
p. 200QOutside of that time period, were those two offices -- excuse me -- were those two apartments used similarly to the other apartments and that sometimes people would stay in them?
p. 200AYes.
p. 201QAnd you talked about this earlier, but you said you were not sure that Mr. Epstein -- you're not sure whether Mr. Epstein owned those apartments. Is that right?
p. 201AI thought at the time he owned them, but that was just my assumption. I didn't speak to him about it.
p. 201QDid you have any knowledge of his brother Mark owning any of those apartments?
p. 201AI did not, no.
p. 201QWhat about of his brother Mark owning the building?
p. 201AI didn't know that he owned the building.
p. 201QAnd you spoke some about the different people who stayed in these apartments. Were some of those people working as models for MC2 Model Management?
p. 201AI believe was a model with MC2.
p. 201QAny others?
p. 201ANot that I know of.
p. 201QDo you know her last name?
p. 201ABY MS. :
p. 201QIt's been discussed a little bit in the previous hours, but we have a few more questions about Bill Gates. Do you know if Mr. Gates ever flew on any of Mr. Epstein's planes?
p. 201AI don't know.
p. 201QYou don't know?
p. 201AI don't know.
p. 201QDo you know if Mr. Epstein ever flew on a plane owned by Mr. Gates?
p. 201AI don't know.
p. 201QDo you know if Mr. Epstein ever introduced any minor girls or young women to Mr. Gates?
p. 202ANo.
p. 202QI'd like to introduce as minority exhibit I, an email from February 27th, 2013, which you sent to Mr. Epstein. The Bates number is EFTA 02720546. [Groff Minority Exhibit I. was marked for identification.] BY MS. :
p. 202QSo the email says that -- this is in the 12:20 p.m. -- is arriving in New York and instructs Jojo to pick her up. Is that Jojo Fontanilla?
p. 202AYes.
p. 202QOkay. So who is Ms. ?
p. 202AI don't know.
p. 202QYou don't know now. Did you know at the time?
p. 202AI don't know now or back then.
p. 202QOkay. Did you know anything about her relationship with Mr. Epstein?
p. 202ANo.
p. 202QDid you know anything about why she was traveling to New York?
p. 202ANo.
p. 202QDo you know who paid for the trip to New York?
p. 202AI -- I do not.
p. 202QSo the email directs Mr. Fontanilla to drive her either to, quote, "apt" or to meet Mr. Epstein at the Four Seasons at 2:00 p.m. Is "apt" apartment, and is that at 301 East 66th Street?
p. 202AThat's what I would think, yes.
p. 203QOkay. The email also states that Mr. Epstein is scheduled to meet with Mr. Gates at the Four Seasons at 2:00 p.m. Was it your understanding that Mr. Epstein intended to introduce Ms. to Mr. Gates?
p. 203AI don't recall this at all. It's -- that would make sense to me, but I don't -- I don't know.
p. 203QWere there any other instances in which -- when you say that would make sense, is that because there were other instances in which Mr. Epstein introduced young women to Mr. Gates?
p. 203ANo. It would make sense to me because it says that -- to take him to the Four Seasons, and I see that Bill Gates has an appointment at 2:00.
p. 203QOkay. And do you know whether Mr. Epstein did end up introducing Ms. to Mr. Gates?
p. 203AI don't know.
p. 203QOkay. And do you know why there was a 10:15 p.m. appointment with Mr. Gates on the same day with Mr. Epstein?
p. 203AI don't know.
p. 203QDid Mr. Epstein frequently meet with business associates and professional contacts that late at night?
p. 203AIt's not common, but it's not unheard of either, I would think.
p. 203QAnd do you know why the meetings would take place that late?
p. 203AI don't know why.
p. 203QOkay. Do you know when the relationship between Mr. Epstein and Mr. Gates ended?
p. 203AIt ended? I don't know.
p. 203QOkay. You weren't aware that it ended at any particular point?
p. 203ACorrect, yes.
p. 203QOkay. And then switching gears a little bit, for the following individuals, were you ever aware of Mr. Epstein having a business relationship with them? The first person is Sultan Ahmed bin Sulayem.
p. 204AI know they knew each other. I don't know what the relationship was.
p. 204QOkay. Howard Lutnick, who is now Secretary of Commerce?
p. 204AI knew they knew each other. They were neighbors. I don't know what the relationship was.
p. 204QOkay. And then Paolo Zampolli, I believe you earlier testified you didn't know who he was?
p. 204ANo. That name does not sound familiar to me.
p. 204QOkay. And then a few more questions about additional people in Mr. Epstein's network. Can you describe who the following individuals -- your understanding of Mr. Epstein's relationship with them. The first one is Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., who is now the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
p. 204AI don't know. I wouldn't know that they communicated. That doesn't seem -- I don't know.
p. 204QYou didn't know that they had a relationship?
p. 204AThat's correct.
p. 204QOkay. Steve Bannon?
p. 204ASteve Bannon he had a relationship with. I don't know what it was, but he would come to the house and he definitely spoke to him on the phone.
p. 204QOkay. And I believe you testified earlier that you arranged a gift of an Apple Watch from Mr. Epstein to Mr. Bannon. Is that right?
p. 204AHe was on that list, yes.
p. 204QAnd were there any other times when you were involved in gifts from Mr. Epstein to Mr. Bannon?
p. 205ANo.
p. 205QOkay. The next question is Leon Botstein, who was the president of Bard College.
p. 205AUh-huh. They -- I think they were friends. Leon would come to the house, and they'd have lunch. I know Mr. Epstein also went out and saw Mr. Botstein as well.
p. 205QAt Bard College?
p. 205AYes.
p. 205QOkay. Noam Chomsky?
p. 205AThat was a friend of his as well. I don't know what the relationship was, but he definitely would get together with Noam and Noam's wife who I can't remember her name.
p. 205QMichael Wolff?
p. 205AMichael Wolff, yes. They had a relationship, friends.
p. 205QOkay. And were you aware of any professional relationship between Mr. Epstein and Mr. Wolff?
p. 205ANo.
p. 205QOkay. And Sarah Ferguson, who was the Duchess of York?
p. 205ADuchess of York, yes, they were -- they were friends also.
p. 205QOkay. And Peter Mandelson, I think, you discussed earlier?
p. 205AYes, they were friends.
p. 205QOkay. Were you ever aware of any monetary gifts from Mr. Epstein to the Duchess of York?
p. 205AMonetary gifts?
p. 205QUh-huh.
p. 205ANot that I recall.
p. 205QOkay. And what about to Mr. Mandelson?
p. 205ANo, not that I know of.
p. 206QOkay. You spoke earlier about some elements of your relationship with Mr. Epstein's estate. I just want to get some clarity for the record on the nature of that. You mentioned that Mr. Epstein had a fund set up to pay attorneys' fees, but that ended when he died. Is that accurate?
p. 206AYes. That's accurate.
p. 206QOkay. How long was the fund in existence?
p. 206AOh, I don't know.
p. 206QOkay.
p. 206AI only found out about it when I needed to hire an attorney.
p. 206QAnd when did that happen?
p. 206AIn July of 2019 probably.
p. 206QAfter he was arrested?
p. 206AYes. Yes.
p. 206QOkay. And do you know, was that fund available to anyone in Mr. Epstein's staff? What was the category of people who were eligible to receive money?
p. 206AI really don't know. I believe it was -- it was staff, but I don't know if there were other people involved or on that plan as well.
p. 206QOkay. How did you become aware of the existence of that fund?
p. 206AMy attorneys.
p. 206QYour attorneys became aware of that?
p. 206ACorrect.
p. 206QOkay.
p. 206AYeah.
p. 206QAnd is it the case that after his death, your attorneys would submit invoices to the estate? Is that what you testified earlier?
p. 207ACorrect.
p. 207QAccording to the same terms of the fund that had existed before?
p. 207AThat had existed before? I didn't know about the fund --
p. 207QI mean the fund before he died.
p. 207AOh, yes. Before he died, yes. Yes. They would submit the -- the invoices.
p. 207QTo the estate?
p. 207ATo the estate.
p. 207QSo other than those attorney fee reimbursements and the settlement as a result of the claim against the estate, have you received any money from Mr. Epstein's estate?
p. 207AOther than the one we already discussed?
p. 207QCorrect.
p. 207AI don't -- no.
p. 207QAnd are you entitled to any compensation from that estate in your understanding?
p. 207ANo.
p. 207QOkay. Do you currently hold any interest or stake in Mr. Epstein's estate?
p. 207ANo.
p. 207QAnd have you had any contact with Mr. Epstein's estate administrators or their representatives since Mr. Epstein's death?
p. 207ANo.
p. 207QOkay. Did you have any contact with Darren Indyke or Richard Kahn in the preparation for their depositions before the committee or your interview before the committee?
p. 207ANo.
p. 207QOkay.
p. 207AI haven't spoken to them. Mr. . When is the last time you spoke with them, if you recall?
p. 208Ms. Groff.It would be when he went to jail -- when Mr. Epstein went to jail, probably right after that. Mr. . Do you recall the context of that discussion?
p. 208Ms. Groff.I think everybody was surprised and worried, but I don't recall anything offhand. Ms. . I've got a few questions to ask you about arranged marriages. We know that Mr. Epstein arranged marriages between American women that he sexually abused and foreign women who were trying to stay in the country. Did you ever have any role in arranging marriages between women connected to Mr. Epstein?
p. 208Ms. Groff.No.
p. 208Mr. Bachner.Can I have one second? When you say anything to do with -- you can just explain, I guess.
p. 208Ms. Groff.Yes. I do know that there's an email that exists that I -- I directed -- excuse me. I didn't direct. Mr. Epstein directed me to have his driver Jojo pick up and a redacted person and go to the marriage place or whatever. But no one ever spoke to me about it. I didn't really know what was going on. It wasn't really until after he went to jail that it came to light to me. BY MS. :
p. 208QGot it. So at the time you were not aware of Mr. Epstein arranging marriages between women connected to him, correct?
p. 208AYes, that's correct.
p. 208QBut you're aware of him doing it now?
p. 208ANow I am, yes.
p. 208QDid you ever provide false information to substantiate a marriage between women connected to Mr. Epstein?
p. 208ANo.
p. 209QDid you ever have knowledge of anyone else providing information -- excuse me -- providing false information to substantiate a marriage between women connected to Mr. Epstein?
p. 209ANo.
p. 209QYou've been asked a few times about the hairdresser, Frederic Fekkai. I believe you said you are not aware of Mr. Epstein ever introducing minor girls or young women to him for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity, correct?
p. 209AYes, correct.
p. 209QAnd also that you are not otherwise aware of sexual abuse allegations against Mr. Fekkai, correct?
p. 209ACorrect.
p. 209Mr. Bachner.You mean at the time as well, right? Back then, correct? Ms. . Correct. Thank you, Mr. Bachner.
p. 209Mr. Bachner.You're welcome. [Groff Minority Exhibit J. was marked for identification.] Ms. . I'd like to introduce as minority exhibit J this email from you to Mr. Epstein from November 18th, 2010. The subject line is Frederic Fekkai. The Bates number is EFTA 02414378. BY MS. :
p. 209QIn the email you say, quote, "Frederic Fekkai just texted me asking if he could use the massage room today at 10:00 a.m. with his masseuse." Do you remember this email at all.
p. 209AI do not.
p. 209QIs this something that Mr. Fekkai would do generally, ask to use the massage room?
p. 209AI -- this is -- this is like seeing it for the first time. I do not recall Mr. Fekkai asking to use the massage room --
p. 210QSure. But --
p. 210A-- for his --
p. 210Q-- separate from this email, do you have any other memory of Mr. Fekkai asking to do this, generally?
p. 210ANo.
p. 210QIs this something that any other men in Mr. Epstein's network would ask to do, to use his massage room?
p. 210ANo. Ms. . Have you had any contact with Ghislaine Maxwell between Mr. Epstein's death and her arrest?
p. 210Ms. Groff.No. Ms. . And since Ms. Maxwell's arrest, have you had any contact with her or any of her representatives?
p. 210Ms. Groff.No. Ms. . Okay. Ms. . Ms. Groff, you said something during your opening statement that I'd like to ask you about. You said that the massages that you scheduled were -- I think I got this down verbatim. I might be off by a word or two -- quote, "just another small part of the elite world I was not from." We have asked you a lot of questions about massages. Our counterparts have asked you a lot of questions about massages. I want to be clear that your testimony is that at no point in the 18 years that you worked for him, that you thought that it was strange that he had girls and young women coming to massage him, correct.
p. 210Mr. Whitcomb.Objection. Form. Girls. She never -- well, continue.
p. 210Mr. Bachner.Do you mean girls, minors, or do you mean girls --
p. 211Mr. Whitcomb.That's what I meant. Ms. . Let's just say young women for now.
p. 211Mr. Bachner.Okay.
p. 211Ms. Groff.No. I did not know that Mr. Epstein had minors coming over to give a massage. BY MS. :
p. 211QLet's just say young women. Your testimony is that at no point in the 18 years that you worked for him that you thought that it was strange that he had all of these young women come and massage him?
p. 211AWell, that was only from the beginning, 2001 to when he went to jail. I didn't know their ages at all. It was a normal part of his day. To me, it was like a luxury. I couldn't believe that somebody would pay for -- you know, do that for, you know, every day. That was a luxury you did once a year.
p. 211QDid you think that these women were professional masseuses? You've used that term a lot. You used it in your opening statement, you used it throughout your testimony. Did you think that they were professional masseuses?
p. 211AI believed that that was what they wanted to do as -- that was part of something that they did. That was their -- I don't know if it was their career, career. But it was --
p. 211QIt was what they wanted to do, or it was what they did?
p. 211AI had sometimes people call me and ask if they -- if Mr. Epstein was in town, could have a massage. So --
p. 211QSo did you believe that these young women were professional masseuses?
p. 211AI never met these women, so I didn't know if they were young or how old they were, first of all. It did not -- I thought that it was just something that he did, like going to the gym. So --
p. 211QSo you didn't have a belief either way that they were professional masseuses or were not professional masseuses?
p. 212AWell, when you say professional, like working for a company or --
p. 212QWorking for a company or having gone through the requisite training and having whatever license and certification is needed to be a massage therapist in the State of New York.
p. 212ARight. I -- I didn't ask questions. They were -- the name and phone number was given to me. I assumed that they were a masseuse.
p. 212QYou were aware that Mr. Epstein was exceptionally wealthy, correct?
p. 212AYes.
p. 212QSo he could have afforded the best masseuse in New York, correct?
p. 212ASure.
p. 212QBut instead, he had dozens, at least, from your perspective, of young women, oftentimes different young women, massaging him, and that didn't seem abnormal to you?
p. 212Mr. Bachner.Just point of clarification. She said she didn't know how old they were. But other than that, go ahead.
p. 212Ms. Groff.Yeah. It did not seem odd to me. It was -- when I was hired, it was -- I was told this is just something that he does, and everybody treated it like it was not a big deal. And I was just told to keep his calendar and schedule his appointments, so -- BY MS. :
p. 212QSo to Mr. Bachner's clarification that you didn't know how old they were, you did call these young women, correct?
p. 212AI would call and make appointments, yes.
p. 212QMs. Groff, do you think that a 14-year-old sounds the same as a person in their 20s or 30s or 40s?
p. 212AIt's possible. I don't know. I was not evaluating voices. It -- nobody ever sounded like they were underage.
p. 212QOkay. BY MS. :
p. 213QWe have a couple of questions about Mr. Epstein's relationship with Elon Musk. Were you aware of Mr. Epstein having a relationship with Elon Musk?
p. 213AI am aware that -- no. I mean, I'm aware that he had -- went and saw SpaceX. At the time I didn't even know what SpaceX was. I don't -- so I don't -- I don't -- I did not know about a relationship with Elon Musk.
p. 213QSo you were aware at the time of Mr. Epstein's visit to SpaceX, but not of any relationship between the two of them beyond that?
p. 213ACorrect.
p. 213QOkay. And were you aware of Mr. Musk ever requesting to visit any of Mr. Epstein's properties?
p. 213ANo.
p. 213QOkay. And so, also, were you aware of Mr. Musk ever actually visiting any of Mr. Epstein's properties?
p. 213ANo.
p. 213QWas it just one visit to SpaceX?
p. 213AYes.
p. 213QWhen did that take place?
p. 213AI don't know. 2014.
p. 213QOkay. And do you remember --
p. 213AI'm guessing.
p. 213Q2014, okay.
p. 213AI'm guessing.
p. 213QOr thereabouts?
p. 213Mr. Bachner.Don't guess.
p. 214Ms. Groff.Okay. Don't guess. I don't --
p. 214Mr. Bachner.Doesn't help anybody.
p. 214Ms. Groff.I don't know. I really don't know. BY MS. :
p. 214QAre you or do you remember whether anybody accompanied Mr. Epstein on his visit to SpaceX?
p. 214AI believe some of his traveling assistants went with him. They always went with him.
p. 214QOkay.
p. 214ABut I don't know who.
p. 214QYou don't know which of the traveling assistants?
p. 214ARight.
p. 214QOkay. Thank you. BY MS. :
p. 214QI'd like to take a few minutes to ask you some kind of summarizing questions to make sure that the record is clear about your testimony today. During the time that you worked for Mr. Epstein, were you ever aware of Mr. Epstein sexually abusing minor girls or young women?
p. 214ANo.
p. 214QDuring the time that you worked for Mr. Epstein, were you ever aware of Mr. Epstein introducing minor girls or young women to other men for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with those men?
p. 214ANo.
p. 214QDuring the time that you worked for Mr. Epstein, were you ever aware of Mr. Epstein transporting minor girls, or young women, for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with him?
p. 214ANo.
p. 215QDuring the time that you worked for Mr. Epstein, were you ever aware of Mr. Epstein transporting minor girls, or young women, for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with other men?
p. 215ANo.
p. 215QYou worked for Mr. Epstein for nearly two decades, correct?
p. 215AYes.
p. 215QAnd during those almost 20 years, you worked some very long hours for him, correct?
p. 215AIt could have been -- if it was a long hour after -- it was working from home and being flexible. So I really appreciated that flexibility. So if he did --
p. 215Mr. Bachner.What hours did you work?
p. 215Ms. Groff.What hours did I work? It started as 9:00 to 5:00, and then it -- yes. BY MS. :
p. 215QI understand that, and we talked about that earlier.
p. 215AYeah.
p. 215QMy point is -- or my question, rather, is, is it fair to say that during those 20 years, you put in a significant amount of time working for that man, 9:00 to 5:00, but also, I believe you said, once he had a smartphone, it was a nearly 24/7 job?
p. 215AYes. He would contact me.
p. 215QOkay.
p. 215AHe had no boundaries.
p. 215QThank you. And you worked with him in his office at 457 Madison, and then you worked with him at his home at 9 East 71st Street, correct?
p. 215AYes.
p. 215QSo it's fair to say that you had a kind of exposure to and knowledge of Mr. Epstein and his operation that almost no one else had, correct?
p. 216AI really don't agree with that. I was making appointments for him. He didn't talk to me. We didn't have discussions. I didn't sit in meetings with him.
p. 216QBut it was your job not to just know his likes and preferences, but to anticipate them. You don't think that there is trust and intimacy in that?
p. 216AThere was no intimacy. He would always give me the directions of what he wanted to happen, make these appointments. It was not -- he really did keep me on the outside, and he did that on purpose. I think he specifically wanted to keep me at arm's length, if not more.
p. 216QBut he trusted you with information that he did not trust other people with, correct? That was part of your role --
p. 216AI suppose.
p. 216Q-- that was part of your value to him; that was part of why he bought you a Mercedes-Benz and paid for a full-time nanny, so you wouldn't stop working for him, correct?
p. 216AHe appreciated -- I think he valued my -- my organizational skills and that I was responsible.
p. 216Mr. Bachner.Sorry. Just one more point of clarification. He didn't buy her a Mercedes. He bought a Mercedes, and she used it, and then she had to give it back. Ms. . Sure. Thank you, Mr. Bachner.
p. 216Mr. Bachner.You're welcome, . BY MS. :
p. 216QIs there anyone else in his orbit that had the kind of knowledge of his schedule, his day-to-day, his likes, his preferences, who he met with, who he didn't, who he talked to, who he didn't, more than you?
p. 216AI would say all the traveling assistants knew a bunch of his schedule and what was going on.
p. 216QBetter than you?
p. 217AI feel like they knew him better than me.
p. 217QSo your testimony today is that you did not know that Mr. Epstein was abusing, assaulting, raping, and trafficking minor girls and young women for decades, correct?
p. 217Mr. Whitcomb.I mean, asked and answered for the 50th time. Ms. . The rules of evidence do not apply.
p. 217Mr. Whitcomb.Understood. Ms. . Thank you. Please answer the question.
p. 217Mr. Whitcomb.But the rules of fairness should. And she's here voluntarily. She's asked and answered this question 50 times. I know I don't have any leeway to direct her not to answer. Ms. . Then she can answer it one more time.
p. 217Mr. Whitcomb.She can answer a 51st time, right.
p. 217Ms. Groff.I did not know. Ms. . Thank you, Ms. Groff. That's all we have. We'll go off the record. [Discussion off the record.]
p. 217Ms. Tolan.We'll go back on the record.
p. 217QMs. Groff, thank you for your patience here today. We know it's been long. We just have a few more questions for you. So to start, do you know of any other individuals that knowingly facilitated Mr. Epstein in his crimes?
p. 217AKnowingly facilitated, no.
p. 217QOr helped him in any way?
p. 217ANo.
p. 217QDid Jeffrey Epstein ever inform or represent to you that he was working with any intelligence service of any Nation, including the United States?
p. 218ANo.
p. 218QDid Ghislaine Maxwell ever inform or represent to you that she was working with any intelligence service of any Nation?
p. 218ANo.
p. 218QDid you ever suspect Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell of being affiliated with any intelligence agency?
p. 218ANo.
p. 218QWe've discussed the investigation into Jeffrey Epstein, the first investigation in 2005, and his following arrest multiple times during today's interview. Just so the record is clear, when did you first become aware of the investigation into Mr. Epstein?
p. 218AI believe it was in August of 2007 when they came to my door, the FBI came to my door.
p. 218QAnd that was after he was arrested?
p. 218AWhen was he arrested?
p. 218QI forget the exact date. He was arrested in July 2006 for the first time.
p. 218AOh, okay. Hmm, I'm not sure. I believe it was when they came to my door. That's when I figured that out.
p. 218QAnd did Mr. Epstein ever discuss this investigation with you?
p. 218AHe did after the -- I was served the subpoena, yes.
p. 218QWhat did he say to you?
p. 218AHe said that he was being blackmailed, and there was a short discussion.
p. 218QAnd did you have any knowledge of any illegal activity by Mr. Epstein prior to his arrest in 2006?
p. 218ANo.
p. 219QOn October 20th, 2005, police executed a search warrant for Mr. Epstein's Palm Beach, Florida, home. Do you recall this happening?
p. 219ANo.
p. 219QDid you ever learn about this happening?
p. 219AI did learn after the fact, yes, that it had happened.
p. 219QSo while you were still working for him?
p. 219AYes.
p. 219QSo you were not present at the Palm Beach residence when that occurred?
p. 219ANo.
p. 219QWhat did you hear about the raid when you learned about it?
p. 219AThat they had come in and raided his home and took -- I don't know exactly -- maybe computers; they searched his trash cans, that sort of thing.
p. 219QAnd there was reporting that many believe Epstein was tipped off about the raid since multiple computers that were expected to be at the house were missing when the search warrant was executed. To your knowledge, did anyone tip Jeffrey Epstein off to the October 20th search warrant in Palm Beach?
p. 219ANot that I know of.
p. 219QAnd are you aware of any items being removed from his Palm Beach residence prior to the FBI raid?
p. 219ANo.
p. 219QDid you receive any specific instruction to destroy any information from any of his residences at this time?
p. 219ANo.
p. 219QDid you receive specific instructions to have any items removed from any of his residences at this time?
p. 220ANo.
p. 220QDid you ever instruct someone to remove items from any of his residences?
p. 220ANo.
p. 220QAt the New York property, you were not instructed to remove any items from his town home?
p. 220AThat's correct, no.
p. 220QWere any other items or records ever intentionally destroyed or withheld from police as part of this investigation?
p. 220ANot that I know of.
p. 220QMs. Groff, do you know what the Florida Science Foundation is?
p. 220AI did not know until after we were preparing for this testimony.
p. 220QSo you didn't know at the time?
p. 220ACorrect.
p. 220QAnd you didn't know about him working at the Florida Science Foundation as part of his work release?
p. 220AI knew that he was working there, and it was part of the Florida Science Foundation, right.
p. 220QDid you ever visit the office of the Florida Science Foundation while Mr. Epstein was working there in work release?
p. 220AYes, twice.
p. 220QWhat were the reasons for those visits?
p. 220AJust to coordinate a list of scientists and their names and phone numbers. We made appointments with Gloria and -- I'm forgetting his name.
p. 220Mr. Bachner.You testified to it earlier.
p. 221Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 221Mr. Bachner.Minsky?
p. 221Ms. Groff.Minsky, Marvin Minsky, yes. He came and stayed the whole entire day with Mr. Epstein, him and his wife, he and his wife. And it was just -- connected him to some scientists, and he had lots of attorneys coming in and out.
p. 221QAnd do you recall where the office was located?
p. 221AHang on. It was in the same office building as his attorney, Jack Goldberger. It was south of -- Australian Avenue, something like that.
p. 221QAnd you just testified to this, but Mr. Epstein was allowed to have visitors while he was on work release?
p. 221AYes.
p. 221QDid anyone else visit him, to your knowledge?
p. 221AI said Darra Torres earlier and the attorneys, Larry Visoski. I know I met Larry Visoski's wife one day there, his driver and security guard, gym instructor, Igor -- I don't remember the last name -- it started with a Z -- Sarah Kellen, and Story Cowles, who was the paralegal.
p. 221QWhile he was on work release, did Mr. Epstein ever engage in any sexual conduct with any woman?
p. 221ANo. I mean, now I understand after the fact, there's been allegations.
p. 221QBut you had no direct knowledge of this?
p. 221ANo.
p. 221QMs. Groff, who is Matthew Menchel? Do you know who that is?
p. 221AI've come to find out after prepping for this that he was an attorney.
p. 221QDid you understand him to have a relationship with Mr. Epstein when you worked for Mr. Epstein?
p. 222AI don't really even -- I don't even remember him. He's just a name that now I recognize because of listening to other people's testimony.
p. 222QDo you recall ever scheduling meetings, dinners, or any kind of appointments between Mr. Menchel and Mr. Epstein?
p. 222AI don't recall.
p. 222QAnd do you know if Mr. Epstein ever later hired Mr. Menchel to work for him?
p. 222AI don't -- I don't know.
p. 222QAnd then I'm going to ask you about the New York residence specifically. Were you aware of security cameras on, or at that residence?
p. 222AAt the 71st Street?
p. 222QYes.
p. 222AThere were -- there was a room with monitors, and there was security cameras that looked out on to 71st Street.
p. 222QDid you have access to that room?
p. 222AI could go in there, but I didn't go in there very often.
p. 222QWas there a reason you would go in there, or can you describe the instances?
p. 222AJust to say hello to Rich, who was in that office, maybe a UPS package would be in there, something like that.
p. 222QSo not to review security footage?
p. 222AOh, no.
p. 222QAnd did all of his residences have a similar security camera room?
p. 222AI don't know.
p. 222Mr. Emmer.And to be clear, you said the security cameras were outside the residence?
p. 222Ms. Groff.Yes.
p. 222Mr. Emmer.You are not aware of any security cameras inside the residence?
p. 223Ms. Groff.No.
p. 223Mr. Emmer.Okay.
p. 223QDo you know if the security footage was stored anywhere?
p. 223AI don't know.
p. 223QDo you know if any of the footage was ever turned over to the police or the FBI?
p. 223AI don't know.
p. 223QDo you know what happened to any of this footage after Mr. Epstein's death?
p. 223ANo.
p. 223QWhen did you learn of Mr. Epstein's death?
p. 223AI think the morning that it happened.
p. 223QWho told you?
p. 223AMy counsel.
p. 223QWhat did you do next, or who did you speak to next?
p. 223AMy husband. He was with me.
p. 223QIn all the years that you've known and worked for Mr. Epstein, did he ever demonstrate suicidal tendencies?
p. 223ANo.
p. 223QHave you ever heard Mr. Epstein say that he wanted to commit suicide?
p. 223ANo.
p. 223QDo you believe that Mr. Epstein committed suicide?
p. 223AI don't know.
p. 223QAnd I believe we touched on this a little bit earlier, but when did you first learn about the 2008 nonprosecution agreement?
p. 223AI believe it was after he went to jail.
p. 224QAnd what were you told about this agreement, if anything?
p. 224AJust that I was -- I was in it, and I didn't really understand it.
p. 224Ms. Brignac.And who told you you were in it?
p. 224Ms. Groff.Mr. Indyke.
p. 224QAnd why do you think you were named in this agreement?
p. 224AI didn't understand it at all. I felt very far away from Palm Beach. I felt like I had nothing to do with it. I was surprised.
p. 224QAnd then I know we've talked at length about massages, Mr. Epstein receiving massages, and the role that you had in scheduling those. I just have a few more clarification questions for the record. Just to be clear, did you ever pay money to any person in exchange for a massage for Mr. Epstein?
p. 224AThe only thing -- I never handed any money to anyone. The only thing I would have done is if Mr. Epstein directed me to have put money in an envelope for someone, and then that envelope would be picked up by a messenger or Jojo, his driver, and taken to that person.
p. 224QSo just to be clear, did you ever give money to a 15-year-old girl for the purpose of a massage for Mr. Epstein?
p. 224ANo.
p. 224QAnd we touched on this earlier, but just for clarity, did you ever provide any gifts to any of the masseuses?
p. 224ANo.
p. 224QDid you ever provide Broadway tickets to any of the masseuses?
p. 224ANo.
p. 224QThe committee is also aware of allegations of Jeffrey Epstein engaging in blackmail of sorts. Did Mr. Epstein ever ask you to look up information to use against any young women or girls?
p. 225ANo.
p. 225QAnd then, again, just to reiterate, so the record is clear, while scheduling a massage for Mr. Epstein, did you ever ask any of the masseuses for their age?
p. 225ANo.
p. 225QDid you ever ask them anything about their appearance?
p. 225ANo.
p. 225Mr. Emmer.Did you ever ask to review school IDs of anyone?
p. 225Ms. Groff.No.
p. 225Ms. Brignac.Did you ever review school IDs?
p. 225Ms. Groff.No.
p. 225Ms. Tolan.And are you aware of masseuses or girls being paid more money if they recruited a friend to get Mr. Epstein a massage?
p. 225Ms. Groff.No.
p. 225QHave you ever made an appointment for another woman to receive an abortion?
p. 225ANo.
p. 225QHave you ever transferred money to anyone for purposes of receiving an abortion?
p. 225ANo.
p. 225QDoes the name Dr. Kaplan ring a bell?
p. 225ADr. Kaplan? Not offhand.
p. 225QDid you ever agree to render payment for services to Dr. Kaplan?
p. 225AI don't recall who Dr. Kaplan is. I don't -- I don't know. It was not my place to -- to give money to doctors. I don't know.
p. 226QIn your work for securing medical appointments for girls, such as the example we provided you with today, did you ever receive information about the purpose of the appointments?
p. 226ANo.
p. 226QAre you familiar with the name Dr. Magnani?
p. 226ANo.
p. 226Mr. Bachner.One second.
p. 226Ms. Groff.Oh, Magnani?
p. 226QYes.
p. 226AAh, Dr. Magnani in Palm Beach. He was a dentist?
p. 226QYes. Did you ever render payment to Dr. Magnani for services to young women or girls?
p. 226ANo, not that I -- not that I recall. They were friends, and maybe he did see him as a -- as a dentist as well.
p. 226QDid you understand that he was providing dental services to anyone associated with Mr. Epstein?
p. 226ANo.
p. 226Mr. Bachner.She'd like to modify that answer to I don't recall.
p. 226Ms. Brignac.Please do.
p. 226Ms. Groff.Yeah. I don't recall setting up an appointment.
p. 226QI know that we have talked at length about travels and whether you had traveled in furtherance of your employment. Did you mention that you had flown on Mr. Epstein's helicopter?
p. 226AI did once.
p. 226QAnd can you elaborate where that helicopter went?
p. 227ASure. It left St. Thomas and took me over to his island.
p. 227QDid you ever travel to Cuba?
p. 227ANo.
p. 227Ms. Brignac.Ms. Groff, you said in your opening statement you want to be helpful. Is there any information you have that could be helpful to this committee?
p. 227Ms. Groff.I feel like we've talked about a lot of things. I hope that I have been helpful. I think y'all have covered about everything.
p. 227Ms. Brignac.And thank you for your assistance today. It has been a very long day and appreciate your cooperation with all of these questions. However, you've also said you don't know a lot today, and I hope you can appreciate some of the confusion and, admittedly, frustration with the fact that you don't know certain circumstances when you worked with Mr. Epstein for 18 years and have been quoted as being an extension of his brain. Is there anything you can offer there to help clarify that confusion?
p. 227Ms. Groff.All I can say is that I truly, and even more now, recognize how he kept me away from him. We were not social. He did not have discussions with me, and it was all a part of his scheme and his manipulation. It was 100 percent on purpose. Yeah.
p. 227Mr. Bachner.I'm not the witness, but because the newspaper article was used, you know, he also indicated that she got paid $200,000 a year in 2004, and that's false. So, you know, how he may have characterized her as being an extension of his brain may be equally as true as how much money he was paying her. This is what he said. It doesn't mean at all it's true. And I'm sure you're aware of that.
p. 227Ms. Brignac.Do you believe there has been anyone that's testified before this committee that has been untruthful?
p. 227Ms. Groff.I do not, no.
p. 228Ms. Brignac.Is there anything we've not asked you about today that you would like to offer into the record.
p. 228Ms. Groff.I don't believe so, no.
p. 228Mr. Bachner.One of the questions that was asked by the gentleman sitting next to Ms. Tlaib -- I apologize, I didn't know his name --
p. 228Mr. Emmer.For the minority.
p. 228Mr. Bachner.-- for the minority -- was about -- I don't know if you want to clarify it, but Ms. Groff was asked repeatedly by him how he -- she could not believe that someone who was, quote, "in school and was in an orchestra was not a minor." I think she would like to just elaborate --
p. 228Mr. Whitcomb.Sorry -- no minors have orchestra practice at 10:00 at night. [5:56 p.m.]
p. 229Ms. Groff.Yeah. To me, no high school student is going to orchestra practice at 10:00 p.m. and this person was working all day. It was definitely someone who was of age, and minors just are not going to -- staying up late and -- you know, I raised my son. We were never going this late and doing things. This person clearly had to be someone of age. It's just -- it's New York. To me, I can't imagine that someone is going to school who's a minor that late in the evening.
p. 229Ms. Tolan.Thank you. That is all the questions we have for you today. We will conclude there and go off the record. [Whereupon, at 5:57 p.m., the interview was concluded.] Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee I have read the foregoing _ _ pages, which contain the correct transcript of the answers made by me to the questions therein recorded. _ _ Witness Name _ _ Date