p. 1COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. INTERVIEW OF: WILLIAM H. GATES, III Wednesday, June 10, 2026 Washington, D.C. The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:00 a.m. Present: Representatives Comer, Higgins, Timmons, Boebert, Crane, Perry, Burchett, McGuire, Burlison, Garcia, Krishnamoorthi, Lynch, Subramanyam, Walkinshaw, Crockett, Ansari, Randall, Khanna, Stansbury, Frost, and Bell. , MINORITY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR , MINORITY RESEARCH ASSISTANT , MINORITY RESEARCH ANALYST , MINORITY INTERN , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL , MINORITY PRESS SECRETARY , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL , MINORITY FELLOW , MINORITY SENIOR ADVISOR , MINORITY LEGAL INTERN , MINORITY CHIEF COUNSEL For WILLIAM H. GATES, III: JOHN MORAN McGuireWoods TOM CLARE MEGAN MCGUIGGAN Clare Locke LLP ROB NABORS
p. 4Mr. Spectre.This is a transcribed interview of Mr. William H. Gates, III, conducted by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform under the authority granted to it pursuant to House rule X. Accordingly, House rule X grants the Committee broad jurisdiction for the Committee to conduct investigations of any matter at any time. This interview was requested by Chairman James Comer as part of the Committee's investigation into the circumstances and subsequent investigations into the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, the operation of sex trafficking rings and the ways for the Federal Government to effectively combat them, the ways in which Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell sought to curry favor and exercise influence to protect their illegal activities, and potential violations of ethics rules related to elected officials. Can the witness please state his name and spell his last name for the record?
p. 4Mr. Gates.William Henry Gates, III. G-a-t-e-s.
p. 4Mr. Spectre.Thank you, sir. I want to thank Mr. Gates for appearing here voluntarily today. My name is Peter Spectre, and I am the director of oversight for Chairman James Comer. Under the Committee on Oversight and Government Reforms rules, you are allowed to have counsel present to advise you during this interview. Do you have counsel representing you in a personal capacity present with you today?
p. 4Mr. Gates.I do.
p. 4Mr. Spectre.Will counsel please identify themselves for the record?
p. 4Mr. Moran.John Moran, McGuireWoods.
p. 4Mr. Clare.Tom Clare, Clare Locke LLP.
p. 4Mr. Spectre.Thank you. For the record, starting with the majority staff, can the additional staff members please introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation?
p. 5Mr. Grant.Billy Grant, deputy chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Emmer.Jack Emmer, chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Ashworth.Daniel Ashworth, general counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Giachetti.Ryan Giachetti, chief counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Harnice.Will Harnice, professional staff member for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Ms. Cathey.Hannah Cathey, professional staff member for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Ms. Brignac.Brittany Brignac, senior counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Ms. Tolan.Ellison Tolan, counsel for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Ms. Cogar.Mallory Cogar, director of operations and chief clerk, Chairman Comer.
p. 5Ms. Hinojosa.Kylie Hinojosa, professional staff member and administrative clerk for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Hacker.Austin Hacker, deputy communications director, Chairman Comer.
p. 5Ms. Vinyard.Ashlee Vinyard, deputy staff director for Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Soto.Melvin Soto, digital director, Chairman Comer.
p. 5Ms. Collins.Jessica Collins, communications director, Chairman Comer.
p. 5Mr. Marin.Mark Marin, staff director, Chairman Comer. , research assistant, Ranking Member Garcia. , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. , research analyst, Ranking Member Garcia. , chief counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. , staff director, Ranking Member Garcia. , press secretary, Ranking Member Garcia. , deputy press secretary, Ranking Member Garcia. , clerk intern, Ranking Member Garcia. , senior advisor for Ranking Member Garcia. , legal intern, Ranking Member Garcia. , legal intern, Ranking Member Garcia. , fellow, Ranking Member Garcia. , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia.
p. 6Mr. Spectre.Thank you. Starting with the majority, can the members of the Committee please introduce themselves? Chairman Comer. James Comer, chairman, House Oversight, Kentucky.
p. 6Mr. Higgins.Clay Higgins, Louisiana.
p. 6Mr. Crane.Eli Crane, Arizona.
p. 6Mr. Perry.Scott Perry, Pennsylvania's 10th.
p. 6Mr. Subramanyam.Minority Congressman Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia's 10th District.
p. 6Mr. Spectre.Thank you all. Mr. Gates, before we begin, I would like to go over the ground rules for this interview. The questioning will proceed in rounds. The majority will ask questions for up to an hour and then the minority will have an opportunity to ask questions for up to an hour if they choose. To the extent members have questions for the witness, they will be propounded during their side's respective rounds. The clock will stop if you need to confer with counsel, when your counsel is speaking, and when members or staff are speaking during the opposing side's rounds of questions. We will alternate back and forth until there are no more questions. Do you understand?
p. 6Mr. Gates.I do.
p. 6Mr. Spectre.There is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say to make a written record of the interview. For the record to be clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you finishes each question before you begin your answer, and the staffer will wait until you finish your response before proceeding to the next question. Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this interview, please speak clearly, concisely, and slowly. Also, the court reporter cannot record nonverbal answers, such as nodding or shaking your head, so it is important that you answer each question with an audible, verbal answer. Exhibits may be entered into the record. Majority exhibits will be identified numerically. Minority exhibits will be identified alphabetically. We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and truthful manner possible, so we will take our time. If you have any questions or do not fully understand our question, please let us know and we will attempt to clarify, add context to, or rephrase our questions. If we ask about specific conversations or events in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words or details, you should testify to the substance of those conversations or events to the best of your recollection. If you recall only a part of a conversation or event, you should give us your best recollection of those events or parts of conversations that you do recall. Do you understand?
p. 7Mr. Gates.I do.
p. 7Mr. Spectre.Although you are here voluntarily, you are required by law pursuant to Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 1001, to answer questions from Congress truthfully. This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in this interview. Do you understand?
p. 7Mr. Gates.Yes.
p. 7Mr. Spectre.If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you could be subject to criminal prosecution. Do you understand?
p. 7Mr. Gates.I do.
p. 7Mr. Spectre.This includes both knowingly providing false testimony but also stating that you do not recall or remember something when, in fact, you do. Do you understand?
p. 7Mr. Gates.I do.
p. 7Mr. Spectre.Furthermore, you cannot tell half truths or exclude information necessary to make your statements accurate. You are required to provide all information that would make your response truthful. A deliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement. Do you understand?
p. 8Mr. Gates.I do.
p. 8Mr. Spectre.Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's interview?
p. 8Mr. Gates.There's none.
p. 8Mr. Spectre.Please note that if you wish to assert a privilege over any statement today, that assertion must comply with the rules of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. Pursuant to that, Committee rule 16(c)(1) states, For the chair to consider assertions of privilege over testimony or statements, witnesses or entities must clearly state the specific privilege being asserted and the reason for the assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or appearance. Do you understand?
p. 8Mr. Gates.Somewhat.
p. 8Mr. Spectre.Ordinarily, we take a 5-minute break at the end of each hour of questioning, but if you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know and we'll be happy to accommodate. However, to the extent that there is a pending question, we would ask that you finish answering the question before we take the break. Do you understand?
p. 8Mr. Gates.I do.
p. 8Mr. Spectre.Do you have any other questions before we begin?
p. 8Mr. Gates.I do not.
p. 8Mr. Spectre.I do understand you have an opening statement that you'd like to read for the record. Is that right?
p. 8Mr. Gates.Yes.
p. 8Mr. Spectre.You may go ahead.
p. 9Mr. Gates.Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I am here to answer your questions about my interactions with Jeffrey Epstein and to help contribute to the Committee's important work. I support the release of all the Epstein files and sincerely hope that through your efforts and those of others advocating on their behalf, the survivors of Epstein's crimes, Epstein's crimes, can get the justice that they deserve. At the outset, I want to state very clearly I never witnessed nor had any indication that Epstein was engaged in ongoing criminal conduct. I never went to his island, his ranch, or his Florida home. I have never victimized anyone. While he may have sought to foster a personal relationship, I was never interested in that and never reciprocated. I was introduced to Epstein in 2011 through people I trusted in my professional and philanthropic work. Epstein claimed that he could raise billions of dollars for global health from people for whom he provided tax and estate services. I recall being aware that Epstein had faced prior legal issues, but I did not fully understand the extent of the crimes he committed. I accepted the introduction without applying the scrutiny I should have. For almost two decades, my full-time focus has been global health and education. I've been guided by the belief that all lives have equal value and that every child should have the chance to live a healthy life, no matter where they were born. I have committed all my resources and my time to this effort, but my wealth alone cannot fill the enormous funding gap that remains. This is why trying to encourage others of significant means to invest in global health has become such an important element of my work. My interactions with Epstein began with a limited number of preliminary meetings, three in 2011 and two in 2012, during which I talked about the goals of my work. We began more extensive conversations in 2013 and 2014. The discussions focused on identifying potential giving structures such as donor advice funds and how to enroll individuals he claimed were interested in making significant contributions. I made it clear to Epstein from the outset that he would never play a role in any of the work or receive any compensation. In 2014, after Epstein brought together a group he described as potential donors, I realized that our prior discussions, which should have translated into meaningful philanthropic support, were a dead end. It was clear that no one in the group was interested enough to move forward. At that point, I concluded Epstein would never deliver on his promises. I told him we would go no further and stopped communicating or meeting with him. No vehicle for charitable giving was ever created and no funds were raised. Our interactions ended in December 2014, 4 years before new reports in the press and unsealed court documents shed additional light on the extent of his crimes. It was during the same time period that an employee was in the process of transitioning out of my private office. This employee engaged Epstein to negotiate and advise him on the terms of the separation. I did not ask nor did I want or need Epstein to be involved in this matter. His involvement resulted in email exchanges, calls, and meetings with members of my team and me. However, the agreement we ultimately reached was not any different from what was previously agreed upon months in advance of Epstein inserting himself. It was after this that I learned Epstein had become aware of sensitive information about my personal life, including the fact that I had been unfaithful in my marriage. These affairs had nothing to do with my interactions with Epstein, but they were painful for my family. As the public can now see based on what has been released in the files, Epstein was working to use information about my infidelities, in addition to many lies that he layered on top, to pressure me to reengage with him. He was unsuccessful in this effort, but it shows some of the ways he tried to leverage his interactions with me to further his agenda. I should never have met with Epstein in the first place. Based on what I know now, I understand that even if he had delivered the donors he promised, it would not have justified associating with him. I see now that he sought to build an image of legitimacy around himself using connections to reputable and powerful people to deflect scrutiny and attempt to rehabilitate his reputation. I was so focused on the possibility of raising funds for global health that I allowed that goal to override my better judgment. That is a sobering realization and it has reinforced for me the importance of being more attentive to how access and reputation can be manipulated by people acting in bad faith. In the work I do, reputation is the basis for developing partnerships that save lives. Meeting with Epstein was a grave error in judgment and put this work at risk. His behavior was antithetical to all my efforts to contribute to a world where everyone has a chance to live a healthy and productive life. If the time I spent with Epstein lent him credibility, I am deeply sorry. I've learned a significant lesson and am now far more careful about who I engage with, even in a limited capacity. I look forward to answering all your questions about my interactions with Epstein and the topics identified in the Chairman's invitation to appear today. The Committee's work is essential. It is my sincere hope that those harmed by Epstein's crimes will receive the justice they deserve. Thank you.
p. 11Mr. Spectre.Thank you, Mr. Gates. We've had a couple of extra members join. Starting with the majority, can you please introduce yourself for the record?
p. 11Ms. Boebert.Lauren Boebert.
p. 11Mr. Burlison.Eric Burlison.
p. 11Mr. Lynch.Congressman Steve Lynch, Eighth Congressional District of Massachusetts.
p. 11Mr. Spectre.Thank you. The time reads 10:15, and the majority's time will begin now. EXAMINATION
p. 11QMr. Gates, I want to thank you again for coming here voluntarily to answer our questions today. I want to start by very, very briefly discussing your background. I know, of course, you've had a very long and very, very successful career, but can you provide the Committee with a very brief summary of your career up until now?
p. 12AYeah. I was born in 1955. I went to high school in Seattle, graduated. I attended Harvard College for a few years, but did not complete a degree. I founded Microsoft in 1975. I stayed as CEO of Microsoft through the year 2000. I stayed as chief technical adviser through 2008. So 2008 ended my full-time work at Microsoft. Overlapping that, I created the Gates Foundation in the year 2000, so I gave a substantial gift of Microsoft stock in the year 2000. And so between 2000 and 2008, I was full-time Microsoft, part-time Gates Foundation. 2008, I ceased my full-time work at Microsoft and began full time as chairman of the Gates Foundation. And since 2008 that's been my primary effort. I still give some advice to Microsoft. I have some energy innovation work under the term Breakthrough Energy, but my full-time work is the work of the Gates Foundation, which involves areas like education, global health, agriculture, financial services, and so that's my primary work today. I turned 70 last year.
p. 12QThank you. And to be clear, do you hold any official positions at any of your other -- do you currently hold any positions at any of your other ventures besides the Gates Foundation?
p. 12AYeah. I have some title with Breakthrough Energy. I'm not sure what that is. I have an entity called Gates Ventures that is my private office, and I have a group that manages investments on my behalf and the foundation trust's behalf called Cascade. So I think that that's all of my official roles.
p. 12QThank you. And we'll get more, of course, into your interactions with Mr. Epstein a little bit later. But just to be clear for the record, your opening statement indicated that your relationship with him, your interactions with him occurred between 2011 and 2014 -- late 2014. Is that right?
p. 12AThat's right.
p. 13QSo for the entirety of that time, you were -- your primary role was at the Gates Foundation. Is that right?
p. 13AYeah. I mean, I was doing the whole mix of things I do, but, yes, at all times since 2008 that's been my primary role.
p. 13QAnd you were not -- you didn't have a formal job at Microsoft during the time you knew Mr. Epstein. Is that right?
p. 13ANo.
p. 13QAnd at this point philanthropy is your full-time endeavor. Is that right?
p. 13AThat's right. For some of the energy innovation work, I use private investment vehicles and even the foundation itself often uses investments as part of its overall strategy, but the work -- the aim of the work is philanthropic.
p. 13QThank you. And, again, we'll get deeper into this a little bit later, but I just want to do a high level --
p. 13Mr. Lynch.We can hear the question -- we can hear the answer. We can't hear the questions at all. Thank you.
p. 13Mr. Emmer.We've had another member join. Can they please announce themselves for the record?
p. 13Mr. Timmons.William Timmons, South Carolina Fourth Congressional District.
p. 13QMr. Gates, when did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 13AIt was in January 2011 that I had a dinner with him.
p. 13QAnd was that at Mr. Epstein's home?
p. 13AHis home in New York, yes.
p. 13QCan you describe the circumstances that led you to attending that dinner?
p. 13ADr. Nikolic, who worked for me, said that since I was out in New York I might be interested in having a dinner with him, and so that got scheduled.
p. 14QHe said you might be interested in it. Did he say why you might be interested in it?
p. 14AHe probably gave me a brief description that -- about Epstein.
p. 14QDo you recall what that description entailed?
p. 14ANo, I do not.
p. 14QWhat did you discuss in your first interaction with Mr. Epstein?
p. 14AYou know, it was a dinner that I would have talked about what I was doing. He would have mentioned a number of scientists and people that he spent time talking to. You know, it was kind of an introductory dinner that I don't remember all the specifics.
p. 14QSo he was sort of giving you an outline of the powerful people he knew? Is that what you mean by that?
p. 14AMore intellectual, you know, professors or science people, as well as some business leaders. I don't know if it was that night or some other time, but he did talk about that he provided advice to lots of billionaires.
p. 14QDo you recall any specific names that he mentioned to you?
p. 14ANot at that time. You know, he talked about Wall Street billionaires, he talked about Middle East billionaires. He made it sound very extensive.
p. 14QDid you get the sense that he was offering you some kind of service?
p. 14ANo.
p. 14QWhy do you think he was telling you about these people he worked with?
p. 14AMaybe for me to have a good impression of him. You know, at some point, I don't think that first night, the idea that some of those people might give money to global health came up.
p. 14QI know you said you don't recall exactly the description that Dr. Nikolic gave you about Mr. Epstein, but do you recall what, if anything, you knew about Mr. Epstein in general before you met him for the first time?
p. 15AI was aware that he had a criminal conviction.
p. 15QHow were you aware of that?
p. 15AI'm not sure. Either I looked it up or somebody told me.
p. 15QDid Dr. Nikolic tell you that?
p. 15AI'm not sure.
p. 15QDo you recall knowing at that time what the criminal conviction was for?
p. 15AI knew that it was of a sexual nature, but, no, I don't think I knew -- dug into the specifics, although I probably should have.
p. 15QWould you normally look into people's backgrounds before you met with them? Was this an uncommon way of handling it?
p. 15AI don't have a formal process for people I meet.
p. 15QDid you ask Mr. Epstein about this conviction at that time?
p. 15AI did not bring it up during that dinner.
p. 15QAnd he didn't bring it up either?
p. 15ANo.
p. 15QDid anyone ever raise concerns to you about Mr. Epstein with regard to that conviction or anything else in 2011?
p. 15AWell, throughout the time I spent with Epstein, the concern about his reputation was voiced by me and by other people, so there was an awareness that he had a bad reputation stemming from his criminal conviction.
p. 15QAnd are you saying you were aware of these concerns early on or are you describing conversations that occurred later in your relationship with Mr. Epstein?
p. 15AI'd say both.
p. 15QSo you were aware he had a bad reputation and he had some sort of sex-related conviction at the time you first entered into contact with him?
p. 16AThat's right.
p. 16QWhat were your first impressions of Mr. Epstein?
p. 16AWell, he talked about a lot of scientists that he would talk to or business leaders he would talk to, and he made that sound fairly extensive, you know, across a wide range of topics. So he seemed like he was a bit of a dilettante.
p. 16QWhat do you mean by that?
p. 16ASomebody who focuses time on a large number of subject areas and new people who are deeply engaged in those areas.
p. 16QSo he made a good impression?
p. 16AYou know, he's kind of a unique person even, you know, based on the limited knowledge I have -- had at the time. It was kind of a unique thing to have this large house in Manhattan and to mention quite a wide range of people from both business and academic areas. I would say, you know, I thought he was unusual.
p. 16QWho else was with you at this first dinner you had with Mr. Epstein in 2011?
p. 16AFor the dinner itself, just Dr. Nikolic.
p. 16QWere other people traveling with you for that? Is that what you meant?
p. 16ANo.
p. 16QSo at the dinner, you were with Dr. Nikolic, Mr. Epstein, and nobody else was at the dinner?
p. 16AThat's right.
p. 16QWhat did you understand his job or career to be when you met him?
p. 16AI'm not sure if it was that night, but over time, he suggested that he provided tax advice and advice on wills to a wide variety of people, both from Wall Street, from the Middle East, you know, that he was in a position of trust with a number of wealthy people.
p. 16QAnd you said you didn't get the sense he was offering you any kind of service, so he wasn't offering you tax or estate services of any kind?
p. 17ANo. There came a time later where he brought up that, you know, he could help on taxes, and I rather sternly rebuffed that effort.
p. 17QSure. And we can get more into that a little bit later. So at this point, meeting him for the first time in 2011, did you understand him to already be wealthy at that point?
p. 17AWell, certainly the -- you know, the -- just the house alone represented a significant amount of wealth. I'd never seen -- I don't think to this day I've seen a private house in Manhattan that's quite that spacious.
p. 17QDid you have any idea at that time how he had acquired his money?
p. 17ANo. To this day, I find that a bit confusing.
p. 17QAnd, again, we'll get a little bit deeper into your interactions with Mr. Epstein later, but just for now, could you briefly characterize the nature of the relationship that you had with Mr. Epstein between 2011 and 2014? Was he a friend? Was he a business associate?
p. 17ANo, he certainly wasn't a friend. You know, he made an effort to extend the relationship with various invitations, but, you know, he -- eventually, you know, as I talked about my work in global health for the Gates Foundation, he suggested that he could raise substantial amounts of money from people that he knew to help with that endeavor, and that became the primary focus out in 2013. 2011, we just had, you know, two dinners, one where it was with Jes Staley and Larry Summers, one where he was just dropping by. So, you know, three encounters in 2011. Then over a year passes and I see him twice in late 2012. And then it's in I think spring 2013 where this purported availability of people who when they would sit and talk about their wills, their taxes, that as part of that process they would realize they had a significant amount of excess money and hopefully they would want to give that philanthropically and hopefully they would consider giving that to global health. And so he -- that became the focus in spring of 2013.
p. 17QSo you said he would give invitations for things. Were these social functions or philanthropic or otherwise?
p. 18ANo, they weren't social. I mean, there was one time at the end of a dinner, David Blaine came, and so that was a lighter thing. He's a magician. But the meetings were always about the world and, you know, what was going on. Obviously, when somebody like Larry Summers or Jes Staley is there, they're talking about what they see in the world, what they expect, so it's a wide ranging discussion.
p. 18QSo did you ever socialize with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 18ANot -- no, I would not say I was socializing with him. I was at a dinner where a wide range of serious topics came up. When he, for example, invited me to come to his island, that would have been socializing, and that -- I didn't do that. You know, one time in Paris he asked me to go to a show and I said that would not be a good idea. I chose not to do that.
p. 18QSo he did invite you to a couple of social functions and you just rejected them?
p. 18AHe did many things to try and deepen the relationship, including the various invitations.
p. 18QDid you ever discuss sexual behavior of any kind with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 18ANo.
p. 18QDid you ever witness Jeffrey Epstein engaging in sexual contact of any kind?
p. 18ANo.
p. 18QDid you ever witness Epstein receive a massage from a young woman or a girl?
p. 18ANo.
p. 18QWere there often young women or girls at the places where you would meet with Epstein?
p. 18ANo. The only time anyone who was I'd call a girl was around was, after that first dinner, Eva Dubin came and she had her daughter with her. Other than that, there were no young women at any of the times I saw Epstein.
p. 18QSo none of his -- a number of Epstein's employees, we understand, were younger women. Did you ever meet any of those people?
p. 19AI was not introduced to them, but, you know, like, when you go to the New York thing, I think they open the door. Jeffrey -- Mr. Epstein had what appeared to be administrative assistants with him, and the extent of my contact with them was that, you know, they were there. As I would go into a meeting, they never attended any meeting that I was in. There were several occasions where Mr. Epstein asked me to be photographed with them at the end of the meeting. I was not introduced to them as part of that. That was quite brief. One of the admins stayed when David Blaine did one of his tricks, so she was standing around then. And there was also a time when I took a flight from Newark to Palm Beach and Jeffrey had two admin assistants with him who sat in the front cabin, but so I saw them as I walked on to the plane and as I walked off of the plane. And so other than the admins who were around, you know, who appeared to be women, I believe they did not look to be underage. I think I fully described any contact with the women around Epstein.
p. 19QThank you. Did you ever engage in sexual contact of any kind in the presence of Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 19ANo.
p. 19QDid you ever engage in sexual contact with a person introduced to you by or affiliated with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 19ANo.
p. 19QDid Jeffrey Epstein or any of his associates ever offer you a young woman or girl for the purposes of sex?
p. 19ANo.
p. 19QDid you ever receive a massage that was arranged by Jeffrey Epstein or any of his staff or associates?
p. 19ANo.
p. 20QWe already discussed that you are aware that he had been convicted of a sex crime, but to be clear, at that time were you aware that he was a registered sex offender?
p. 20AI was not.
p. 20QDo you recall when you first learned that he was a registered sex offender?
p. 20AYou know, my -- it's really 2018 when a Miami newspaper described the sort of extensive and horrific details of what he had done before his 2008, 2009 conviction that I became aware of the extent of his crimes, and I believe that's when I first knew that he'd actually registered as a sex offender.
p. 20QAnd so you ended your relationship with Mr. Epstein in late 2014, as you've mentioned today, and you just said you learned that he was a sex offender and more of the extent of his crimes in 2018. To be clear, did you have any interactions with Mr. Epstein after 2014?
p. 20AI did not.
p. 20QDid you have any communications with Mr. Epstein directly or through an intermediary during that time?
p. 20AYeah. Right after 2014, there was an email he sent to me -- after 2014, I read -- he sent me quite a bit of emails. The majority of emails he sent to me, actually, were after I'd cut off all contact. Most of those I did not read, but in the early period, there were some that I did read. One of those sought reimbursement for what he purported was expenses that he paid with a woman who he became aware of was a woman who I'd had an affair with. And I communicated to my key person, top person at Gates Ventures, Larry Cohen, that we were never going to pay anything. And so in that sense, I did have indirect communication with him, and I think that was in the months after I cut off direct contact.
p. 20QOkay. We'll get into that a little bit more later, but just a few questions about that. So this person that you had had the affair with, is that Mila Antonova?
p. 20AYes.
p. 21QAnd so you said you directed your staff to not reimburse Mr. Epstein for the payments he was requesting. They were, you said, reimbursements for expenses he was covering for Ms. Antonova. Is that right?
p. 21AThat's what he represented.
p. 21QWhy would he want you to reimburse him for that?
p. 21AYou know, I viewed it as a tactic to reengage with me. I'd never asked him to do anything with respect to the person we're discussing, so I was rather surprised. That was the first time I knew explicitly that he'd become aware of that affair.
p. 21QSo you did not know until -- I'm sorry, so this was in 2014 that we're discussing now?
p. 21AYeah. Late 2014, maybe into early 2015 where he's seeking reimbursement.
p. 21QSo you did not know until late 2014 or early 2015 that Jeffrey Epstein was aware of any of your affairs or just this affair?
p. 21AIn the termination or exit discussion relative to Dr. Nikolic, which is as early as I think spring 2013, Mr. Epstein made some veiled references that made me wonder whether he had become aware, which, you know, the only way I can imagine that would have happened was through Dr. Nikolic, of either one or two affairs that I'd had that Dr. Nikolic was aware of. But until the specific reimbursement requests, it was a veiled type of thing where he would say, you know, we should all want to remain friends.
p. 21QDo you know what exactly the expenses he had paid for for Ms. Antonova were?
p. 21AI have no idea. You know, he -- he wasn't an honest person, so understanding did he pay those expenses or not, I have no knowledge.
p. 21QAnd we'll talk a little bit more about that a little bit later, so we can go ahead and move along.
p. 21Mr. Emmer.We've had another member join. Can you please announce himself for the record?
p. 22Mr. Walkinshaw.James Walkinshaw, 11th District of Virginia.
p. 22Mr. Spectre.Thank you, Mr. Gates. And, again, we'll come back to some of those topics. And my apologies, we're probably going to bounce around a little bit. We're going to try to have some sort of -- some semblance of chronology here.
p. 22Mr. Emmer.We've had another member join. Can he please announce himself for the record?
p. 22Mr. Burlison.Congressman Eric Burlison, Missouri.
p. 22QSo we've already begun talking about Dr. Nikolic, but for the record, who is Dr. Nikolic?
p. 22ADr. Nikolic, he is a person who worked at the Gates Foundation on the diagnostic strategy for a period, then he left the Gates Foundation and came to work in my private office, which was one time called bgC3. It's been renamed to Gates Ventures. It's the same private office. So he worked there as -- I think his title was science adviser, from something like 2010 until through -- when was his last day? End of 2013? Yeah, until the end of 2013.
p. 22QAnd just very briefly because we're going to be discussing his employment dispute, but why did he leave his employment at the end of 2013? Just briefly. Did you fire him? Did he resign? What exactly occurred?
p. 22ADr. Nikolic, when he worked for me, had decided that he wanted to become a venture capitalist, and so he had said, hey, you know, working for you, I can just make a salary, I understand about biotech companies, which ones are going to be successful. I think both in terms of impact and making money, that's where I should go. And so more than a year before he left, we talked about that. I said, you know, why don't you stay another year, you can make some -- up to three investments during the time you're with me, you know, sort of a practice venture capital-type investment, and we'll share the profit of those investments. So Dr. Nikolic, you know, had decided that he was moving on and going to venture capital. His actual exit was somewhat accelerated by the fact that I shared with my wife at the time that he was aware of affairs that I had, and she and I discussed that I should probably have him leave sooner rather than later. So that was a factor in terms of the timing of his exit.
p. 23QSo, in summary, he was already -- kind of had, you know, one foot out the door to some degree, but it was accelerated by this disclosure of your affairs to your then wife Melinda French Gates. Is that right?
p. 23AThat's right. I mean, I don't know what would have happened if I hadn't given him the opportunity to make the investments, and he was sort of saying that he wanted to go and do that, and so I think I extended the amount of time he stayed with me by letting him make up to three investments.
p. 23QWould you say that Dr. Nikolic was one of your closest advisers?
p. 23AI have a lot of advisers, but he, as my science adviser at Gates Ventures, he was a valuable adviser to me.
p. 23QDid you see him as purely a professional? Was it purely a professional relationship or was he a friend to you as well?
p. 23AThat was a professional relationship. I mean, where you draw the line there, I was friendly with Dr. Nikolic, but I did not socialize with him. He didn't come to my house, I didn't go to his house.
p. 23QWhen was the last time you communicated with Dr. Nikolic?
p. 23AMany years ago.
p. 23QCan you give me an estimate? Was it in 2014 when he left employment or was it after that?
p. 23AThere was a MIT advisory committee for some of the work the foundation was doing with MIT, and he stayed on that committee for, I think, a year after he left, and that was probably the last direct communication I had with him was in those couple of years where he stayed on the advisory committee, and no communication since then.
p. 24QWe've already discussed Mr. Nikolic -- Dr. Nikolic, of course, introduced you to Mr. Epstein. So, in your words, can you characterize Dr. Nikolic's relationship with Mr. Epstein or at least your understanding of their relationship?
p. 24AWell, during the time I knew Epstein, I thought it was a -- just he had met him before I had and that he was kind of organizing the visits that took place. In looking at the email documents that came out in January, to my surprise, I now see that he had quite an extensive relationship with Mr. Epstein. So I was not aware of that at all during the time that I met with Epstein 2011 to 2014.
p. 24QAre you aware that Dr. Nikolic was ultimately named in one of -- in Mr. Epstein's final will and testament?
p. 24AI've seen that in the press.
p. 24QSo you learned about that much later in the press?
p. 24AI hope it's an accurate thing. It was a press report that mentioned that.
p. 24QBut you have no firsthand knowledge of that?
p. 24ANone.
p. 24QDid that surprise you when you read it?
p. 24AA lot. [Gates Majority Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.]
p. 24QI'd like to enter into the record majority exhibit 1, which is an email that Epstein sent to Dr. Nikolic on June 16th, 2013. The bates number on this document is EFTA00873874. And just for the record, all of the Bates numbers that begin with EFTA are documents that the Department of Justice released pursuant to the Epstein Files Transparency Act. I will give you a second to look at it, but I will note that I'll be reading much of or all of it into the record, so you don't need to read the entire thing. The first question is, have you seen these emails before?
p. 25AYeah, okay. I mean, I may have seen these when they came in out January, but not before that.
p. 25QSo you don't recall ever seeing these emails prior to the Epstein Files Transparency Act released by the DOJ?
p. 25AI did not.
p. 25QIn the first email, so the email at the bottom of the page, that is an email from Mr. Epstein. Context clues from the rest of the document indicate that that was sent to Boris Nikolic but, of course, that is redacted on the document. He sent it to Boris on Sunday, June 16th, at 12:02. It reads, "to me," and then it looks like a draft of a statement or an email that says, "Bill, I am in tears as I write this. I have barely slept for 3 days. I am devastated beyond words. I find myself losing my best friend and my career all in one day by no fault of my own. As your friend, I suggest you carefully reconsider your alternatives. If Melinda decides to file for divorce, I will, of course, stand by you and help any way I can. I want to see you happy, truly. Difficult choices no matter what. As you know, I'm going in for a delicate surgery on my eyes on Tuesday. This timing could not be worse. I will be totally out of it for a few days. I hope you are able to convince Melinda to allow me to continue doing my job, a job you described as I could not have done better. I hope to ask her face-to-face to change her mind. I have done nothing wrong." And the email continues, but just for the record there, in 2013 when this email was sent, were you and your then wife Melinda considering a divorce?
p. 25ANo.
p. 25QWhy would Mr. Epstein or Dr. Nikolic be under the impression that you were?
p. 25AWell, I never would have discussed anything relating to that subject with Mr. Epstein. I told Boris -- Dr. Nikolic, sorry -- that I'd shared the information about the two affairs, and he may have thought, you know, that meant our marriage was at risk. It was certainly a deeply troubling thing for my wife, but the -- at this time there was not a -- any discussion of divorce.
p. 26QIt seems in this draft that's written from Dr. Nikolic's perspective that he may have believed that Melinda was the one who wanted him to leave his job, and I think you characterized it earlier as kind of a back-and-forth discussion with your then wife. Was it Melinda's discussion to ask Dr. Nikolic to accelerate his departure or was it a mutual decision between the two of you?
p. 26AIt was a mutual decision. I agreed with Melinda that having him leave pretty soon was the best thing, and so that's what I did. And that was a quicker departure than would have happened otherwise.
p. 26QI'll continue reading the draft email. It continues, "However, I recognize the fact that it might not be possible at this time. I also realize I will need a lawyer to review any agreement we might enter into, but I don't trust any with so much sensitive info. I have asked Jeffrey to oversee and negotiate for me and have given him power of attorney to act on my behalf. He also needed to be my health proxy during my operation. I have informed him of all the details surrounding our dilemma. I trust him 100 percent. My communication with him is privileged. No worry. He has agreed to act as my financial and legal representative. You can trust him. He has dealt with very similar problems in the past. Obviously, he hasn't given me the details. I would greatly appreciate you and he talking directly. He does not know Larry and cannot be open with him. He doesn't like or trust PR people. This is a terrible circumstance in which we find ourselves, but I am confident of our friendship and I know you know how devoted I am to you." And I will say, I asked you if you've seen these emails before the release, but I'll be more specific. Have you seen any email or other type of message that is similar to that draft I just read to you? Did you receive something like that in 2013?
p. 26ANever. Never anything even close.
p. 27QSo Dr. Nikolic and Mr. Epstein are communicating about something that they might send to you, and it sounds like they didn't. Is that right?
p. 27AI never received anything like that.
p. 27QIn the second email, so the middle email that Dr. Nikolic writes back to Mr. Epstein at 12:12 on June 16th, 2013, Dr. Nikolic seems to say, "this is great. My only worry is whether I should send him now or tell him when I see him on Monday. He is still trying to make it work with Melinda. He's having next round of negotiation with her next weekend. If all fails, then it is a negotiation for a next steps. If I send it right now, it reads that I accepted, it is all over. Finally, I can't put something such as divorce in an email. If she reads, she will go extra steps to be as nasty as possible. Also, I think that my chances of convincing him to talk to you are higher if I do it in person and not over the email. So how about hold this -- so how about you hold this for 8 days? Thank you, B." So sounds like Mr. Nikolic agrees with the perspective denoted in Mr. Epstein's draft and that he would be more interested, though, in having the conversation with you face-to-face. Did he have any sort of conversation with you face-to-face during this time like this?
p. 27ABut I've never seen this email so, I mean, you can ask me questions, but I add no value.
p. 27QSo I guess I'll be more specific. The -- I understand you've testified you've not seen the email. Did Dr. Nikolic approach you and communicate these same feelings in person, so not over email?
p. 27ANo.
p. 27QIn the draft email -- again, understanding that you have not seen it until much later -- Dr. Nikolic is implying that he has entrusted Jeffrey Epstein with sensitive information seemingly with relation to you and that he has given Epstein power of attorney to act on his behalf, that he will be his financial and legal representative. So were you aware that Jeffrey Epstein was going to be acting as a legal or financial representative for Dr. Nikolic?
p. 28AWell, he wasn't a lawyer, so I'm not sure how a nonlawyer becomes someone's legal representative. Eventually, Dr. Nikolic did communicate to me that he was involving Epstein in the discussion of the -- of Dr. Nikolic's exit, and he -- I forget exactly, but he sent -- he told me that he was involving Epstein.
p. 28QAgain, you didn't receive this email, but it seems what they're trying to get across to you is that, while you're correct that Jeffrey Epstein was not, in fact, a lawyer, they are representing him to have some sort of privileged communication with Dr. Nikolic seemingly in a way to make it seem like the sensitive information that -- the sensitive information that Mr. Epstein knows about is privileged. Did you ever have a conversation like that with Dr. Nikolic?
p. 28ANo. How could it be privileged?
p. 28QI am just as confused as you are, but I guess what I'm asking is, did they represent to you that it could be privileged?
p. 28AI told you that in terms of awareness of the affairs that I had, there was no explicit reference to that, but there was some what you would call veiled reference to it in the form of, hey, we should all want to be friends. It's only later when Epstein is talking about his reimbursements to a specific woman that I was aware that -- I became fully aware of that. There was a point in the discussions with Boris where I, you know, I said I'm not going to be influenced by what you might or might not know or say. But, again, this email is complete news to me.
p. 28QOkay. The top of the email, I won't read this entire one, but it -- it seems to imply that you had already given Dr. Nikolic some kind of offer, probably related to his departure. Had you already given Dr. Nikolic some kind of exit package or offer in June of 2013?
p. 28AYeah. There was a prior agreement about -- he ended up making two investments on our mutual behalf. You know, I'd authorized him to make three, but he made two. So there was, you know, putting into writing how we would handle his payment for his share of those, and then just the termination agreement. So that was all known before he engaged Epstein in the exit discussions. [Gates Majority Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.]
p. 29QOkay. Thank you. I will now enter into the record majority exhibit 2, which is an email from Mr. Epstein to himself on July 18th, 2013. This is marked as Bates number EFTA01966988. And I'll note for the record that there are a few similar versions of these emails throughout the files, I think, with things being forwarded along. I'll be referencing this version and asking you questions about it. Some of the other ones are just cut off, so --
p. 29AI don't know what you mean "forwarded along."
p. 29QThe -- within the Epstein files, there are duplicates for various reasons, and I'm just referencing that I'm using this particular EFTA number for the record.
p. 29AOkay.
p. 29Mr. Emmer.And while you're reviewing, we've had more members and staff join. Can they please identify themselves for the record?
p. 29Mr. Garcia.Robert Garcia, Ranking Member. , Representative Garcia.
p. 29Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi from Illinois.
p. 29QMr. Gates, have you seen this email before?
p. 29ANo. I mean, I would have seen it when it was released in January as part of the Epstein files, but prior to that, no.
p. 29QSo this appears to be a draft email or statement that Epstein may have written -- he at least sent it to himself -- from the perspective of Dr. Nikolic. Is that fair?
p. 29AI add no value to that.
p. 30QWell, can we agree that this is not the perspective of Jeffrey Epstein? It's clearly written from the perspective of somebody else. Is that fair?
p. 30AYou're asking me to speculate on this?
p. 30QSo I will read it into the record then. It is, again, sent Thursday, July 18th, 2013, at 12:39, from Jeffrey Epstein to himself. However, the email reads, quote, "I have decided to resign my position effective immediately with BG3 and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. I have not come to this decision quickly or without a great deal of thought. During the past few weeks, I have been caught up in a severe marital dispute between Melinda and Bill." I will stop reading there for a second. But given majority exhibit 1 which we were just discussing and the fact that Mr. Epstein and Dr. Nikolic were clearly discussing a marital dispute of some kind between you and Melinda, is it fair to say that this is a email that was intended to have been sent by Dr. Nikolic?
p. 30AI don't know. It was never sent by Dr. Nikolic. That's all I bring to this.
p. 30QSure. I can continue reading. "I have the greatest respect for my friend of 7 years, and I wish them both well. In my role as his right hand, I have been asked on multiple occasions and, in hindsight, wrongly acquiesced into participating in things that have ranged from the morally inappropriate to the ethically unsound and had been repeatedly asked to do other things that get near and potentially over the line into the illegal. Though it was kindly suggested that I make a transition to a new position after my 6 years of service and that Bill would, in his words, give me a generous package, I feel it would be dishonest to myself and my future from helping Bill to get drugs in order to deal with consequences of sex with Russian girls, to facilitating his illicit trysts with married women, to being asked to provide Adderall for bridge tournaments. I feel I owe it to my friends and future colleagues to admit a moral failure, to ask forgiveness, and to move on with my life." [11:00 a.m.]
p. 31QSo again, I understand you did not receive this email, so I'll just begin to discuss the facts in the email. I've already asked you this, I asked you if you had been considering a divorce with Melinda in 2013. I'll ask it a different way, were you having a marital dispute of some kind with your then wife Melinda French Gates.
p. 31AWell, certainly the fact that I told Melinda during this time frame about the two affairs, that was very distressing to her, but at that time there was no explicit mention of getting divorced. It may have occurred to Melinda at that point, but it was not a subject of discussion.
p. 31QBut you were having a marital dispute at the time. Is that fair?
p. 31AI wouldn't call it a marital dispute. You could say it was a marital crisis because she became aware of bad behavior on my part.
p. 31QSure. Was this dispute that is referenced in this email -- or how about this --
p. 31AI have no idea.
p. 31QSure. The discussions you had with Melinda at that time about your infidelity, were those ultimately relevant to your divorce in 2021?
p. 31AYou would have to ask her, but I imagine that they were, yes.
p. 31QHow did Dr. Nikolic know of your marital -- of your dispute with Melinda?
p. 31AI never discussed that topic with him. I did tell him that I -- she was aware of the affairs, and that I shared with her that he was also aware of the affairs.
p. 31QWhen did you tell Melinda about the affairs?
p. 31AThat would have been in the spring of 2013.
p. 31QAnd when did you tell Dr. Nikolic that you had told Melinda about the affairs?
p. 31AAround the same time.
p. 31QShortly thereafter?
p. 32ARight. And, you know, that was part of my telling him that his employment was not going to continue.
p. 32QSo is it possible, then, that Dr. Nikolic, while you didn't tell him that you were -- you didn't say you were considering a divorce, as you said, you weren't, but is it possible that Dr. Nikolic read into what you were telling him to believe that Melinda was the reason he was being let go and that he needed to fix things with you. Is that fair?
p. 32AWell, it's not clear to me that Dr. Nikolic ever saw these emails. But, you know, Dr. Nikolic may have inferred from the fact that I said that I, you know, discussed the affairs, he may have speculated about what that was doing in terms of my marriage.
p. 32QDo you have any other suggestion of how Jeffrey Epstein would know about your affairs, or the other details in this email, except for through Dr. Nikolic?
p. 32AI believe he found out about the two affairs through Dr. Nikolic.
p. 32Mr. Moran.And just to be clear, you asked about the other details.
p. 32Mr. Gates.Yeah, I'm not commenting on that.
p. 32QSure.
p. 32AI believe that he found out about the affairs through Dr. Nikolic.
p. 32QDid you ever ask Dr. Nikolic to do anything morally inappropriate or unethically unsound?
p. 32AWell, he was involved -- he knew that I had spent time with the women I had affairs with, so only in that sense.
p. 32QHow did he know that?
p. 32AYou know, one time it was a scheduling thing, when we were in London where I -- I said to him I was going to disappear and wanted him to show that I was meeting with him at that time.
p. 32QSo you used him as an alibi to meet with a woman. Is that fair?
p. 33AThat's correct.
p. 33QDid he know the name of the woman at the time?
p. 33AAt some point I mentioned the name, yes.
p. 33QDid you ever ask Dr. Nikolic to do anything that was potentially illegal?
p. 33ANo.
p. 33QDid Dr. Nikolic ever assist you in acquiring drugs?
p. 33ANo.
p. 33QDid you ever ask him to acquire you drugs?
p. 33ANo.
p. 33QWas Dr. Nikolic a medical doctor?
p. 33AI think he was a research doctor.
p. 33QDid he have prescribing authority, do you know?
p. 33AI don't understand that.
p. 33QTo be clear, you don't understand the question, or you don't understand prescribing authority?
p. 33AI'm not sure whether he had prescribing authority. It never came up.
p. 33QSo do you have any guesses as to why Dr. Nikolic or Jeffrey Epstein believed that you had asked Dr. Nikolic to acquire drugs for you?
p. 33AI don't have any awareness that Dr. Nikolic ever saw this email. Is that -- are you suggesting he did?
p. 33QI'm asking you if you have any context you can share of why either Epstein or Nikolic believed that.
p. 33AI don't.
p. 33QYou've already acknowledged that you engaged in infidelity. We have discussed one of the two, one of the two women that you've acknowledged. Who is the second woman?
p. 34AHer name is Karima Nigmatulina.
p. 34Mr. Moran.And I'll just say as we go forward, you know, as you've seen, Mr. Gates is here addressing obviously very sensitive topics with the committee as they relate to Jeffrey Epstein. We know there's also a lot of public interest in the details of these private affairs that aren't pertinent to Jeffrey Epstein who had no involvement in those other than learning about them after the fact. And so, Mr. Gates will probably seek to decline to divulge details that are not related to Jeffrey Epstein, as is his right. But as you've seen, so far he's here to answer the committee's questions, and we appreciate that the committee has handled this sensitively.
p. 34Mr. Spectre.Thank you.
p. 34QWere both of these women Russian?
p. 34AYes.
p. 34QAgain, the draft email, which I understand you have not seen, refers to sex with Russian girls. Just for the record, how old were these two women during the time of your affairs, roughly?
p. 34AOne was in her 20s. One was in her 30s.
p. 34QSo they were both adults?
p. 34AYes.
p. 34Mr. Emmer.We have had another member join, can he please announce himself for the record?
p. 34Mr. Burchett.Tim Burchett, Tennessee's 2nd District.
p. 34QDid you also engage in, again, the email refers to, quote, elicit trysts with married women, did you have any other affairs besides these two women that we've just discussed?
p. 34AThe only affairs that Dr. Nikolic were aware of were the two that we've discussed.
p. 34QBut there were other extramarital affairs?
p. 35ANone with any connection to Epstein that he became aware of, or that had any connection to him.
p. 35QHow do you know that?
p. 35AI guess I'll never know that because he's dead.
p. 35QSo that's the reason I'm asking about these other ones is you've already testified today that you didn't know that these two women did have any affiliation with Jeffrey Epstein, and many of these details we've only since learned from the Department of Justice's release. So I do think additional context about any other extra marital affairs, especially during the time period you knew Jeffrey Epstein, are relevant to the committee's inquiry?
p. 35Mr. Moran.With respect, I'm able to say Mr. Gates is in the best position to help the committee understand what was connected to Mr. Epstein, and I think he's done his best to do that.
p. 35QSo Dr. Nikolic knew of the two affairs with these two Russian women and that's it?
p. 35AYes.
p. 35QDid you ever contract a sexually transmitted infection during any of your extra marital affairs?
p. 35ANo.
p. 35QNot in these two, or any potential other ones?
p. 35ANo.
p. 35QDo you have any guess as to why Dr. Nikolic or Jeffrey Epstein may have believed that you did?
p. 35AMaybe they thought that was a good way to blackmail someone.
p. 35QDid you have a scare of some kind and it turned out not to be a sexually transmitted infection?
p. 35AI never had an STD.
p. 36QDid you ever communicate to Dr. Nikolic that you were worried that you might?
p. 36AIt's possible I said something like that, which later turned into the lie that I actually had an STD.
p. 36QDo you recall a specific discussion?
p. 36AI do not.
p. 36QBut it's possible that you did?
p. 36AYes.
p. 36QAnd again, for the record, you did not ask Dr. Nikolic in his capacity as a doctor, or in any other capacity, to acquire drugs, antibiotics of any kind?
p. 36ANo. He was not a prescribing doctor.
p. 36QOkay. Mr. Higgins, I understand you have a couple questions you would like to ask.
p. 36Mr. Higgins.I have one question. Mr. Gates, you described the relationship as manipulation, betrayal, coercion, threat of blackmail, dishonesty, Dr. Nikolic was your closest associate, we understand. Have you come to believe that Dr. Nikolic conspired with Jeffrey Epstein prior to your dinner meeting in 2011 and planned, to some extent, an effort to draw you into the Epstein web? Has that come to be your perception of what happened?
p. 36Mr. Gates.I don't know what you mean by web. I have said that --
p. 36Mr. Higgins.The Epstein web of deceitful manipulation, and seeking power and leverage with people of wealth and influence across the world.
p. 36Mr. Gates.Can you restate the question? It sounds very open-ended.
p. 36Mr. Higgins.The question is, have you come to believe in retrospect, and in reading these emails that have been revealed, and some greatly surprise you, as you said, and having gone through that relationship and resisted efforts to draw you into more deeply social relationships, resisted efforts by Epstein to coerce you into allowing him into a deeper role with some things that you regretted doing in life, have you come to see that Dr. Nikolic -- do you believe that Dr. Nikolic conspired or met with Epstein prior to your dinner meeting in 2011 and said, I think maybe I can get, I can get Bill in front of you and maybe we can draw him in?
p. 37Mr. Gates.I don't believe that happened.
p. 37Mr. Higgins.You don't believe that happened.
p. 37Mr. Gates.No, I don't think Dr. Nikolic was part of the broad set of things that you described.
p. 37Mr. Higgins.Okay. Thank you. That's my only question.
p. 37Mr. Emmer.We've had another member join. Can he please announce himself for the record?
p. 37Mr. McGuire.Congressman John McGuire, Virginia 5th District.
p. 37Mr. Emmer.Thank you.
p. 37QMr. Gates, we're coming up near the end of our hour, so I just want to ask a couple of brief questions to follow up on. So we've discussed the names of two women that you had affairs with. You've already said they were both Russian. I believe in previous press statements, other public statements you described one as a bridge player, and the other as a nuclear scientist, or something of the sort. Is that fair?
p. 37AThat's fair.
p. 37QAnd so was Mila, she was the bridge player? Is that correct?
p. 37AMila Antonova I met at a bridge tournament, and she was a serious bridge player.
p. 37QAnd Karima was the nuclear scientist. Is that right?
p. 37AThat's right.
p. 37QYou described at least one instance of how Dr. Nikolic was aware of your infidelity, and it related to a meeting, a meet-up that you had in London, I believe you said. Was it the bridge player, or was it the nuclear scientist that you were meeting up with at that time?
p. 38AThat was the nuclear scientist.
p. 38QHow did Dr. Nikolic come to learn of the bridge player?
p. 38AThere was a time after I finished a dinner in California where the bridge player was meeting me, and because I was delayed, Dr. Nikolic met her and stood with her, was with her until I arrived.
p. 38QSo once Dr. Nikolic had become aware of each of these two affairs, was this something -- what was the situation between the two of you? Was it the kind of thing where you knew he knew, and he knew that you knew that he knew, but did you talk about it? Did you talk about it openly, or was it just like you both knew the situation and chose not to talk about it?
p. 38AI don't remember talking about it until, you know, during the exit period, as I said, there were the veiled illusions, and I in an email took that on very directly.
p. 38QAgain, we've already discussed sort of potential for other extra marital affairs, but just to be clear for the record, is it your testimony that you had no other romantic or sexual relationships with any woman associated with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 38AThat's right.
p. 38QAnd I asked you how you knew that, and you said you could never really be sure. Is that your testimony as well?
p. 38ANo. I'm sorry. Go back.
p. 38QI asked you how you knew that no other woman you may have had a sexual or romantic relationship with had any connection to Jeffrey Epstein. I asked you how you were sure about that, and you said, Well, you guess you can't be sure. Is that right?
p. 38AI'm quite sure.
p. 38QHow?
p. 38AYou know, I think that Epstein, when he was writing emails to himself, took every potential negative thing he knew, and some that are completely false, and he put those into draft emails to himself. And as we see from the email release, the only specific things he refers to are the affair with the nuclear scientist, and the affair with the bridge player. And so I think if in some weird way he discovered anything negative to say about me, we would have seen that in the emails that he sent to himself.
p. 39Mr. Spectre.Thank you very much. We can go off the record.
p. 39Mr. Clare.If I could, before we do that, if I could just offer one thing.
p. 39Mr. Spectre.Sure.
p. 39Mr. Clare.For the committee's benefit. This line of questioning has been about these emails that Epstein sent to himself, and obviously there's a lot of interest in how those things came about. In the course of preparing for this hearing, and working with Mr. Gates, we did identify a situation where Epstein did send an email to himself purporting to memorialize something that Mr. Gates said, completely unrelated to this topic of affairs, but we do see within hours of Mr. Epstein receiving an email from Mr. Gates, Epstein drafting one of these emails to himself purporting to memorialize it and changing significantly the substance of it. And so it may shed light, and if the committee is interested, I'm happy to provide those Bates numbers, and, you know, whether it's for today or another time, we would be happy to brief you on it, but it seems relevant to the question of what Epstein does when he drafts these emails to himself. The email, the authentic one that Mr. Gates sent to Epstein has the Bates number EFTA01936299, and then the email that is Epstein to Epstein that comes a few hours later where he is purporting to memorialize what Mr. Gates told him, but changing the substance of it, is EFTA01936283. So we leave that for the committee's consideration.
p. 39Mr. Spectre.Thank you. We can go off the record. [Recess.] BY MR.
p. 39QAnd we can go on the record. Mr. Gates, good morning.
p. 40AGood morning.
p. 40QMy name is , I am an attorney for the minority, and I will be asking most of our questions today. In the course of doing so, I'm likely going to touch on some of the issues that my majority colleagues covered with you in the previous round. In doing so, I don't want to make you repeat yourself, I just want to make sure that we have a clear record at the end of this proceeding.
p. 40Mr. Garcia.Can you speak into the microphone? Mr. . Sure. Is this better? BY MR. :
p. 40QOkay. Apologies. I'm going to start, if I could, by talking about a few of the individuals whom we understand have been connected with Microsoft, or with the Gates Foundation, and whom we understand had relationships with Jeffrey Epstein. You spoke at length with my majority colleagues about Mr. Nikolic. If I could start with him, just a couple of quick questions. Did he ever mention anything to you about Jeffrey Epstein's proclivity for young women, or for teenage girls?
p. 40ANo. Dr. Nikolic.
p. 40QDr. Nikolic. Thank you. And did Dr. Nikolic ever mention anything to you about Jeffrey Epstein's sexual relationships with young women or girls?
p. 40ANo.
p. 40QThe next individual I would like to ask you about is Steven Sinofsky. Who is Mr. Sinofsky?
p. 40ASteven Sinofsky worked in senior engineering positions at Microsoft for a long time.
p. 40QAnd when did you meet Mr. Sinofsky?
p. 40ALong time ago. Early in his Microsoft career, he served in a job as technical assistant to me.
p. 41QDid you become aware at some point that Mr. Sinofsky had a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 41ANo.
p. 41QDid you ever become aware of Jeffrey Epstein providing professional services of any kind to Mr. Sinofsky?
p. 41AThrough the press this year.
p. 41QNot prior to that?
p. 41ANot prior.
p. 41QDid Mr. Sinofsky ever mention anything to you about Jeffrey Epstein's proclivity for young women, or teenage girls?
p. 41AWe never -- the name Epstein ever came up in any conversation I had with Mr. Sinofsky.
p. 41QAnd as we understand, in April of 2013, Jeffrey Epstein was helping Mr. Sinofsky negotiate his exit package from Microsoft. Is that something that you were aware of?
p. 41ANot at all.
p. 41QAnd then moving on to the next individual, Melanie Walker. And before I proceed with my questions, I'm going to ask the court reporter to mark as exhibit A a Wall Street Journal article of June 7th, 2026, titled, The Hidden Figure With Close Ties to Bill Gates and Jeffrey Epstein. Mr. Gates, I'm not going to ask you any questions about this article, but I understand that one or more of our members will later in the hour?
p. 41AOkay.
p. 41QI just wanted to enter it into the record. [Gates Minority Exhibit A was marked for identification.] BY MR.
p. 41QCan you tell us, who is Melanie Walker?
p. 42ADr. Walker worked at the Gates Foundation for a period, then she worked for the World Bank for a period. She's also an advanced brain surgeon.
p. 42QWhen did you first meet Dr. Walker?
p. 42AWould have been when she was at the Gates Foundation.
p. 42QAnd when did she start working at the Gates Foundation?
p. 42AI'm not sure. 2007. Something like that. I'm not sure.
p. 42QWere you aware at the time she started work at the Gates Foundation that she had a prior relationship with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 42ANo, although she did send me mail after my first dinner with Epstein asking my impressions, so I was aware that she knew Epstein.
p. 42QAnd that was the first dinner you discussed earlier in 2011?
p. 42AThat's right.
p. 42QDid Dr. Walker ever mention anything to you about Jeffrey Epstein's proclivity for young women, or teenage girls?
p. 42ANo.
p. 42QI'm going to ask the court reporter to mark as exhibit B a text exchange. [Gates Minority Exhibit B was marked for identification.] BY MR. :
p. 42QIt is from various dates in September 2017, Bates number EFTA01620736 through 742. And Mr. Gates, please take all the time you need to review this exhibit. I'm only going to be focusing on the last page that's Bates number 742. The names of the participants in this conversation don't appear in the document. We understand that they are Jeffrey Epstein and Dr. Walker. And looking at the page 742, the chat at the top reads, "Larry will join my mtg tmr afternoon w BG at the bgC3 office -- Larry also invited two junior staffers. Larry will not join and is not aware of other meetings. But he's starting to really get annoying. Are there any signals I can send or words I can use to let him and BG know I'm not messing around? Any words I can use w Larry directly or w him and BG." And right below we understand to be Jeffrey Epstein's response, "With bg, all you would have to say, is you should know that I've told Jeffrey everything -- everything." Understanding that you were not a participant in this conversation, have you seen this exchange before?
p. 43AOnly when it was released as part of the Epstein files in January.
p. 43QDo you have any understanding as to what Jeffrey Epstein was referring to here by the word, "everything"?
p. 43AI don't have any value to add here.
p. 43QAnd again, on the same page, the following text reads, "I am worried he will immediately retaliate against me." And what we, again, understand to be Jeffrey Epstein's response, "You can always say I also like blue dresses," colon, closed paren, which I take to be a smiley face emoji. Do you have any understanding as to what Mr. Epstein was referring to there by the reference blue dresses?
p. 43AWe can both speculate. Mr. . Can you speculate for us? In your opinion, what do you think they were referencing?
p. 43Mr. Gates.It appears to be a reference to the Monica Lewinsky affair, or whatever you call it, with President Clinton. Mr. . And you have -- strike that. During your relationship with Mr. Epstein, did you two ever discuss a blue dress?
p. 43Mr. Gates.No. BY MR. :
p. 44QNo further questions on this document.
p. 44AOkay.
p. 44QDr. Walker has reportedly claimed that Jeffrey Epstein introduced her to two professional contacts who sexually propositioned her. Are you familiar with Dr. Walker's claim?
p. 44ANot at all.
p. 44QDid Dr. Walker ever warn you about Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 44ACertainly not during the time I knew Mr. Epstein.
p. 44QThe Wall Street Journal, I'll represent, reported that in August of 2014 Dr. Walker sent you what appeared to be a warning about Epstein stating that you should maintain, quote, a healthy distance for anything of a personal nature, unquote, when dealing with Jeffrey Epstein. Do you recall that email?
p. 44AI do not. Are you sure you have the date correct?
p. 44QThis is as reported by The Wall Street Journal, so I can't confirm their reporting, but that's what --
p. 44AOkay.
p. 44QAnd you don't recall Dr. Walker ever saying anything to you in that vein about Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 44ANot during the time that I knew Epstein, no.
p. 44QSubsequent to the time that you knew Epstein?
p. 44AYou know, in 2017 his name may have come up, and I said the whole Epstein thing was confusing to me, and she didn't really shed much additional light on my confusion.
p. 44QWhat was the context of that discussion?
p. 44AYou know, she had left the employ of the Gates Foundation and was doing some scientific consulting work for me, and so during that time period it briefly came up.
p. 44QAnd when you said the Epstein situation was confusing to you, what were you referring to by situation?
p. 45AWhat was Epstein's thing, how did he make money, what was his -- what was he trying to do? To this day, I don't find a fully satisfactory explanation of, you know, how he got his wealth, and a variety of things.
p. 45QYou spoke in some detail during the previous round about your various meetings with Jeffrey Epstein between 2011 and 2014. If I could, I would like to just walk through some of those in particular with you in a bit more detail using some documents that we have obtained. I will ask the court reporter to mark as exhibit C an email dated January 28th, 2011, with the subject line -- I'm sorry. With no subject line. [Gates Minority Exhibit C was marked for identification.] BY MR. :
p. 45QThe text of the email reads, "Hey," redacted, "Bill Gates and Boris Nikolic is coming for dinner at 71st this Monday and Tuesday night. Both nights! JE asked if you could take off work to help work the dinner. It is only 3-4 people, but he would like you there. Does this work for you?" And to our understanding, Mr. Gates, you are not on this email, but I'm interested in the reference to both nights. Do you recall meeting with Jeffrey Epstein on two consecutive nights in January?
p. 45AI did not.
p. 45QSo to your knowledge, to that extent, this email is inaccurate?
p. 45AThat's right.
p. 45QAnd just to be clear, the email refers to three to four people expected for one or both of those dinners. Is that the number of people you recall being there?
p. 45AI think the January 31st dinner was during the dinner just myself, Dr. Nikolic and Mr. Epstein.
p. 46QAnd outside of the dinner, do you recall anyone else being present?
p. 46AYes. That's the time when Eva Dubin and her daughter dropped by after the dinner.
p. 46QI understand from your testimony in the previous rounds that Jeffrey Epstein extended an invitation for you to visit his island, Little Saint James. Is that correct?
p. 46AI think on several occasions he did.
p. 46QAnd you never accepted that invitation?
p. 46AI never did.
p. 46QAnd why was that?
p. 46AIt wasn't of interest to me.
p. 46QWas there something in particular that was off putting about the idea for you?
p. 46AMy time is quite valuable, and I didn't think it was interesting. It wasn't the kind of relationship we had. Mr. . Did he mention why he was inviting you to his island?
p. 46Mr. Gates.I guess to expand our relationship, to have a social element to it. I'm not sure. Mr. . And to be clear, there was no specific purpose, it was to meet with Epstein, generally speaking, but there wasn't an event you were going to at his island?
p. 46Mr. Gates.No. Or that I was invited to. Mr. You were invited to. Excuse me.
p. 46Mr. Gates.I never went to the island. BY Mr. :
p. 46QContinuing chronologically, 2012, do you recall specific meetings with Jeffrey Epstein in 2012?
p. 46AYeah, I saw him for two dinners in the fall of 2012.
p. 46QWhere did those dinners take place?
p. 46ABoth at his place in New York City.
p. 47QAnd can you tell us respectively who was in attendance at those two dinners?
p. 47AMaybe I should look at a document to -- [Discussion off the record.]
p. 47Mr. Gates.Okay. Sorry. Okay. Yeah, let me correct what I said. One of the 2012 meetings was at the New York City Four Seasons, and the other, during the General Assembly week, was at his residence. BY MR. :
p. 47QAnd refreshing your recollection based on the chronology you just looked at?
p. 47AThat's right.
p. 47QCan we start with the Four Seasons meeting, who was there?
p. 47AI think that's another meeting where Eva Dubin and a friend of hers dropped by, but they were not part of the meeting.
p. 47QWhat to your understanding was Ms. Dubin's relationship to Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 47AIt appeared that they were friends.
p. 47QAnd then the second 2012 meeting was at Jeffrey Epstein's residence, if I understand correctly?
p. 47AThat's right.
p. 47QAnd who was in attendance at that meeting?
p. 47AHe brought along two Norwegians, one who's Terje Rod-Larsen, and the other is Jagland something.
p. 47QSomething Norwegian?
p. 47ASomething Jagland.
p. 47QAnyone else?
p. 47AI think Dr. Nikolic was at that dinner.
p. 47QWhat was the topic of discussion at that dinner?
p. 48AWell, you know, it was generally about the World. One of those men had been the number two at the United Nations, I think under Kofi Annan, and the other gentleman I think had been a Prime Minister of Norway, and various other political-type things. So the dinner would have discussed, you know, their views of the World. You know, I would have talked about my Foundation work, including things like Polio eradication. It was, you know, the first time that I met either of those two men.
p. 48QThe Four Seasons dinner --
p. 48ANot dinner.
p. 48QMeeting.
p. 48AMeeting.
p. 48QMeeting, what was the topic of discussion at that meeting?
p. 48AI'm not sure that I recall the specifics of that. You know, I hadn't seen Epstein for well over a year, so I may have updated him on what I was up to.
p. 48QAnd then, again, proceeding chronologically, moving into 2013, do you recall specific meetings that you had with Jeffrey Epstein during that year?
p. 48AI met with him that year, yes.
p. 48QDo you recall meeting with him at the Westin in California at some point during 2013?
p. 48ANo.
p. 48QNo? If I could ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit D an email, which we understand to have been prepared by one of Mr. Epstein's assistants containing his schedule from February and March 2013. [Gates Minority Exhibit D was marked for identification.] BY MR. :
p. 48QMr. Gates, please take all the time you need to review this document. Once again, it's not one in which you are a participant.
p. 49AIt looks like I may have had a Skype call with him at this time.
p. 49QDuring 2013?
p. 49AYes.
p. 49QDo you recall the subject of that Skype call?
p. 49AI know in 2013, his representation that he could raise billions, or tens of billions for global health became a significant subject of discussion. Mr. . Was there anyone else on that call?
p. 49Mr. Gates.I'm not sure. BY MR.
p. 49QAnd that call took place during a period of time where you still thought that Mr. Epstein might plausibly raise the sums that he was representing to you?
p. 49AThat's right. Through, you know, I would say September, I mistakenly took him at his word, then I became quite skeptical. But through September 2014, I was still hoping that it would -- that billions would be raised for global health.
p. 49QReferring back to Exhibit D, if I could, I would just like to walk through some of these entries which refer to you and meetings that you had, according to this document, with Jeffrey Epstein. So I'm looking at the top, the entry for Wednesday, February 27th, 2013, there is reference to an appointment from 2:00 to 3:30 p.m. with you at the Four Seasons. Do you recall having a meeting with Mr. Epstein at the Four Seasons on that date? [Discussion off the record.]
p. 49Mr. Gates.Yeah. The only thing we show on February of that year, which, you know, my calendar is kept pretty precisely, all we show is a Skype call on, I believe, February 27th. Oh, no. Okay. We're in 2013. BY MR. :
p. 50Q2013.
p. 50AThat's funny because there was a Skype call in 2014 on February 27th, so I apologize. That confused me. No, it looks like there was a meeting at the Four Seasons on the 27th, and then a dinner later that night at Epstein's residence in New York City. Sorry.
p. 50QNo problem. I appreciate the clarification. I'll walk through those in a moment. Just for clarity of the record, the Skype call that we discussed a few minutes ago, that took place during February of 2014?
p. 50AThat's right. And I looked and saw February 27th and I thought that must be it, but that's just a mistake I made. February 27th, what my calendar shows, and I'm sure it's correct, is that I met with him at the Four Seasons during the day, and that there was a dinner at his house that night.
p. 50QOkay. So with respect to the Four Seasons' meeting on February 27th of 2013, who, other than yourself, was in attendance at that meeting?
p. 50AI think --
p. 50QIf anyone.
p. 50AI mentioned that I think that was the time that Eva Dubin and a friend came by. They weren't part of the meeting, but there was a meeting.
p. 50QDo you recall the name of Ms. Dubin's friend?
p. 50AI don't.
p. 50QAnd again, the topic of discussion at that meeting?
p. 50AYou know, this is -- you're getting to the period where there's a lot of focus on whether money can be raised for global health, so that would have been the primary topic.
p. 50QJust looking at a couple of entries above, on February 27th, there's a notation, 12:20 p.m., and apologies, I'm almost certainly going to mispronounce this name, , for the court reporter, , to arrive JFK by Virgin Atlantic 3, and at the end of the entry it says, Four Seasons to meet up with you, referring to Epstein, at 2:00 p.m. [Discussion off the record.]
p. 51Mr. Gates.Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. BY MR. :
p. 51QDo you recall an individual by that name attending the Four Seasons meeting?
p. 51ANo.
p. 51QAnd then the 10:15 p.m. meeting reflected in this calendar, that, if I understand correctly, took place at Mr. Gates' residence?
p. 51ANo.
p. 51QI'm sorry. Mr. Epstein's residence.
p. 51AThere was no -- I don't think there was a 10:15 meeting. There was a -- I thought it was earlier than that.
p. 51QAnd was that a dinner?
p. 51AI think so, yes.
p. 51QAnd do you recall who attended that dinner?
p. 51AI think that was another time where Terje Rod-Larsen and Jagland Thorbjorn -- Jagland is his last name -- Thorbjorn Jagland attended the dinner. And that's also the dinner where -- he invited us over and David Blaine came and did a few magic tricks.
p. 51QYou were asked in a previous round about the presence of young women during these various interactions. Do you recall any young women being present at Mr. Gates' home on the evening of February 27th?
p. 51AMr. Epstein's home. Not my home. When David Blaine did his magic trick, there was -- or tricks, there was one of those admin people standing around as that was being done, but I was not introduced to her.
p. 52QMoving ahead chronologically, the entry for February 28th, again, referring to Exhibit D, starts with the notation, "Reminder: Bill Gates in New York." And then further down at 2:00 p.m., "TENTATIVE Appt w/Bill Gates." Do you recall another meeting with Jeffrey Epstein at 2:00 p.m. on that date?
p. 52ANo, I didn't meet with him on that day.
p. 52Mr. Clare.Did not?
p. 52Mr. Gates.Did not. BY MR. :
p. 52QAnd were you still in New York on February 28th, or had you left town?
p. 52AI probably was there.
p. 52QAnd then moving ahead to the entry for Friday, March 1st, 2013, there is a notation, "1:00 p.m. LUNCH w/Bill Gates and Woody Allen." Do you recall having lunch with Mr. Epstein and Woody Allen?
p. 52AI've never met Woody Allen. I did not ever have lunch, so this never took place.
p. 52QAnd then immediately below, "TBD maybe fly to PB today/tonight, Bill Gates to fly with you maybe," and four question marks. Assuming PB refers to Palm Beach, did you fly to Palm Beach with Mr. Epstein on March 1st?
p. 52AYeah, March 1st or 2nd I did, yes.
p. 52QWhat was the purpose of the trip to Palm Beach?
p. 52AIt was just to -- Mr. Epstein, you know, was seeking more time to talk to me, and I was going to Wellington, Florida, to see my daughter, and so he suggested, because I had a very full schedule, that we fly together to Palm Beach, which we did. It was not his 727, but we flew on a different plane to Palm Beach.
p. 52QA private plane, I take it?
p. 52AA private plane. And I don't know if he owned it or chartered it or what, but it was a Gulfstream, not a -- the well-known 727.
p. 53QWas anyone else on that flight with the two of you?
p. 53AYes. He had, of course, there was a pilot on the flight, presumably.
p. 53QPresumably and hopefully, yes.
p. 53AAnd I believe there were two admin assistants who sat in the first cabin during the flight.
p. 53QOkay. Were you introduced to either of those admin assistants?
p. 53AI was not.
p. 53QWere they both female?
p. 53AYes.
p. 53QRelatively young?
p. 53AI wouldn't -- I would say they weren't underaged. I think there was a photo taken we could look at. But they appeared to be adult women to me.
p. 53QDid you have any understanding that Jeffrey Epstein had a relationship of any kind with either of those two women beyond an employment relationship?
p. 53ANo.
p. 53QDid you witness any sexual activity or sexual abuse on the plane?
p. 53ANever.
p. 53QAnd when you got to Palm Beach, did you stay with Jeffrey Epstein at his house?
p. 53AI did not. I never went to his Palm Beach house. As soon as the plane landed, my security team met me there and I went to another location in Florida, which is Wellington.
p. 53QAnd was this trip to Palm Beach the only time that you flew on a plane with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 53AThat's right.
p. 53QYou referred during the previous round with the majority, if I understood correctly, that you met at some point in 2013 with Jeffrey Epstein in Paris, France. Is that correct?
p. 54AYes.
p. 54QOkay. And what was the purpose of that trip?
p. 54AI didn't take -- I was in Paris for other things, and there was an afternoon where I went over to, I think, a place that he owned in Paris and spent a few hours with him that afternoon.
p. 54QAnd what did you discuss with him that afternoon?
p. 54AYou know, the substantive discussion would have been about the possibility of raising money philanthropically. You know, we possibly touched on -- I think the French Open was going on at that time.
p. 54QWas anyone else present in the apartment during your meeting?
p. 54AYeah, I mean, there were definitely staff people there, including a chef who cooked a lot of food and served it to us at a time when we weren't hungry. And I forget, I think Dr. Nikolic was there. I don't think Mr. Cohen was there. But, yes, there was a meeting.
p. 54QIs the name Jean-Luc Brunel familiar to you?
p. 54AThrough the press only.
p. 54QDo you recall Mr. Brunel being present at that meeting?
p. 54AHe was not. I never ever met him.
p. 54QI'm going to ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit E an email from Mr. Nikolic to you dated June 8th, 2013. And for the record, this email thread bears the Bates number EFTA00873390 through 92. [Gates Minority Exhibit E was marked for identification.] BY MR. :
p. 54QMr. Gates, do you recall this email?
p. 54AI have a recollection, yes.
p. 54QYou referred, as I remember, during the first hour to an invitation that was extended to you while you were in Paris, which you declined. Does this email thread refer to that invitation?
p. 55AIt does.
p. 55QJust a couple of questions about the substance of this exchange. I'm looking at Mr. Nikolic's email to you on the page that bears the Bates number 91 at the end, the second page of this exhibit, and he writes, "Have you ever been in legendary Crazy Horse in Paris? It is one of those erotic upscale elegant shows -- it is fun if you have never been." And then skipping to the end of his email, "Most likely we can go after backstage and meet some artists as Jeffrey dated a few of them." And then your reply in the next email up above at 4:18 p.m., "I will be too tired to do this and wouldn't want to take the risk." What risk exactly were you referring to here?
p. 55AI think in general going to a show of erotic nature is -- I just don't choose to do that. I don't think it would be helpful for my reputation. In my early 20s, I probably went to a show like this once or twice, but here I'm saying that I believe it would be a mistake for me to accept this invitation. You know, just another example of where there was kind of an attempt to draw me into a more social relationship.
p. 55QYou had a concern about potential reputational harm in the event that you were spotted?
p. 55ARight. And it wasn't consistent with the relationship I had with Epstein. We never did anything of a entertainment or relaxing nature, and so this would have been a change in the relationship that I chose not to make.
p. 55QWas there anything specific to Jeffrey Epstein that led you not to want to attend this event?
p. 55AYeah, I guess not only is my appearing at an erotic event a risk to my reputation, it would be compounded by appearing with somebody who, although I didn't know the full extent of it, had been convicted of a sexually-related crime.
p. 56QAnd was that on your mind when you wrote this reply to Mr. Nikolic?
p. 56ACertainly.
p. 56QMr. Gates, I have no more questions for the moment, but I understand that some of our members have questions for you at this point. Mr. . And before we turn it over to members, for those new members who just arrived, can you please introduce yourself for the record?
p. 56Ms. Randall.Congresswoman Emily Randall, Washington's 6th District.
p. 56Ms. Ansari.Yassamin Ansari, Arizona's 3rd District.
p. 56Mr. Khanna.Ro Khanna, California.
p. 56Mr. Burchett.Tim Burchett, Tennessee. Do we need to do this every time we walk in? Mr. . Not every time.
p. 56Mr. Burchett.Okay. Cool. All right. Thank you.
p. 56Ms. Stansbury.Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico 1st.
p. 56Mr. Garcia.Great. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Gates, thank you for being here today, and for your cooperation in answering questions. Obviously, this investigation for us is about getting to Jeffrey Epstein's crimes, accountability and justice for the survivors. I think you acknowledged that at the start. I have a couple of questions, but I wanted to also just ask you, look, I think everyone recognizes that you have built incredible companies, your Foundation, the work that's happened across the World, you have done an enormous amount of good for a lot of people globally, and so I do want to recognize -- I want to recognize that and it's appreciated. Because we're looking to get justice and having an investigation that at the end of the day is about survivors, in your interactions with Mr. Epstein, in which you described some, and you will throughout the day, as we seek to getting better understanding of how we can learn exactly what happened and who was responsible, can you suggest, and you are an incredibly brilliant person, obviously, in your interactions with Mr. Epstein, could you suggest, or do you have any suggestions of who are people within his orbit, whether they were assistants you may have interacted with, staff that you may have seen, that we should be asking questions of to get additional information? If you were to give our committee some thoughts about folks that we should be talking to in this investigation, is there anyone that you could suggest, or that you would suggest? Whether you remember their names or not, but folks within Jeffrey Epstein's orbit that you think could have information vital to this investigation?
p. 57Mr. Gates.You know, I'm really not sure because his illegal activities didn't come up and weren't happening when I was ever there. And I mentioned that in my second dinner, Jes Staley and Larry Summers were present, and I've said in subsequent dinners the two Norwegian gentlemen were present. Later on in 2014, as I pushed Epstein on who were these people that he had this close professional relationship relative their taxes and their will and, therefore, what they might be doing philanthropically, he had me meet with a number of men. But I don't want to cast any aspersion on those men because I don't have specific knowledge of any of these men's bad behavior. But, you know, those were some of the people who were around. And, you know, part of the reason that I foolishly spent time with Epstein was seeing those other well-known people in his orbit, that had an influence on me. But I'm not blaming them, and I do feel bad that my spending time with them may have furnished his reputation to some degree. [12:12 p.m.]
p. 58Mr. Garcia.What about employees of Epstein, so not necessarily, you know, men or individuals that were in the public limelight or that had broad reputations, but what about employees or people around Epstein that worked for him or there was a perception that they worked for him that wouldn't be -- that, if you had to make a judgment, would be important for us to speak with? Who would you recommend us to speak with?
p. 58Mr. Gates.Yeah, I was never introduced to any employees of Epstein. As I've said, they were there to open the door. One of the people stayed for the David Blaine magic tricks. There were the two admin assistants who were on the plane flight. In almost every time I saw Epstein, he either had one or two what appeared to be admin assistants with him. They were all women. They all appeared to be adult women. We can go through the various times he had me take photos with these people, but I was never introduced to them. So I wouldn't have a lot of insight to which ones might help the Committee.
p. 58Mr. Garcia.Thank you. And, Mr. Gates, I know that you have said, and I just want to quote, "To be clear, I never spent any time with victims, the women around him." I know that you have said that -- have been quoted as saying that. But you are aware that many of Epstein's assistants who were around were actually victimized?
p. 58Mr. Gates.Yeah, that's a very good point. I never spent time with any women who I was aware were victims, and so that's why I've enumerated very carefully when I ever saw any of those admin assistants, because, tragically, as you say, it appears in the press now that some of those women were indeed victims. So, to that degree, you know, for the photos, for sitting on the plane or standing there during the magic trick, I may have been in the presence of victims.
p. 58Mr. Garcia.Okay. No, I appreciate that clarification. I think that's an important one to make. And then, just lastly, I know that you said earlier that you felt your association with Epstein was a huge mistake. Just to expand on that, for the record, can you expand on that what you mean exactly by that? What was the mistake?
p. 59Mr. Gates.Yeah. I hope I capture all the ways that it was a mistake. It was a mistake to spend time with him because, in the end, it led to nothing. You know, I'm still not sure to this day if he sincerely thought that, in fact, billions would appear that would be dedicated to Global Health. I think so, because, you know, there were meetings talking about literally the structure of donor-advised funds that might be attractive to the donors, but it was a mistake because it was a dead end. It was a mistake because of his prior conviction. It's even more of a mistake when I read, in 2018, that basically he had not served an appropriate penalty for the things he had done, and then, even more so, as I read that, even after 2009, perhaps even during the time 2011 to 2014 when I was meeting with him, that there were ongoing crimes. And so you can say it's easy to say now, but let me tell you: This is one of the larger mistakes I've made was to risk my reputation and the reputation of the foundation by engaging in these meetings.
p. 59Mr. Garcia.Mr. Khanna.
p. 59Mr. Khanna.Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Gates, for being here. Did Jeffrey Epstein use Dr. Melanie Walker to get access to you?
p. 59Mr. Gates.No.
p. 59Mr. Khanna.Did Epstein use Walker to reach her foundation advisors or other powerful people around you?
p. 59Mr. Gates.I'm sorry, say again.
p. 59Mr. Khanna.Did Epstein use Dr. Walker to reach her foundation advisors or other powerful people around you?
p. 59Mr. Gates.Well, Dr. Walker was an employee of the Gates Foundation doing work there for, I think, something like 3 years. Then she went to work at the World Bank, and then she did some consulting for my private office. But, you know, that's what I knew that she was engaged in.
p. 60Mr. Khanna.Did Epstein ever receive information about you through her?
p. 60Mr. Gates.It appears, reading the emails, the answer to that is yes, but I had no awareness of it at the time.
p. 60Mr. Khanna.Dr. Walker told you that Epstein was very discrete, and the world's most gorgeous people hang around Jeffrey. He was already a convicted sex offender at the time. Why did you continue to maintain a relationship with him?
p. 60Mr. Gates.Well, as I've said, I felt that, working with Epstein in the limited role -- which I was clear to him that is simply being referring me to people who would give, never contemplating and being explicit that he would have no role and that he would not be compensated -- I made the mistake in judgment that continuing to spend time with him to try and raise that money for Global Health was a valuable use of my time.
p. 60Mr. Khanna.Well, where would you have gotten the money, from him directly or his --
p. 60Mr. Gates.No, not from him, but rather -- when somebody is, you know, thinking about their will and their taxes, you know, that's when they really think, "Okay, I have -- particularly people of great wealth, "that I have money that's leftover that perhaps I should give philanthropically." And so I believed -- and he represented -- that with a number of billionaires, including Wall Street billionaires and Middle East billionaires, he had that type of relationship where there was somebody staking out their overall estate plan. And I believe that was a case where literally billions, and he specifically said this to me, which, of course, ended up not happening, but he said that we could raise billions --
p. 60Mr. Khanna.Two more --
p. 60Mr. Gates.I'm sorry.
p. 60Mr. Khanna.Two more quick questions because my time is about -- given that what we've seen, the behavior of what I call this Epstein class and all these billionaires, would you at least be for a 5 percent tax on these billionaires to deal with wealth inequality? Could you at least say you're open to something like that?
p. 61Mr. Gates.Well, I certainly believe that the U.S. has to find a way of taxing very rich people at a far higher level than they do today. You know, I probably paid more in taxes than anyone. I paid over $14 billion. I think it's unfortunate that the current taxation vehicles don't raise more money from people of great wealth, including people like myself.
p. 61Mr. Khanna.My last question is, did Mr. Epstein ever introduce you to any young women or girls?
p. 61Mr. Gates.Never.
p. 61Mr. Khanna.Thank you.
p. 61Mr. Garcia.Congressman Lynch.
p. 61Mr. Lynch.Thank you, Mr. Gates. Earlier, Democratic counsel asked you if you recalled an email that you received that was sent to you by Melanie Walker that warned you about Mr. Epstein. You did not recall that, and you asked if there might be a specific date. I looked it up, and it's August 14 -- I'm sorry, August of 2014. Walker sent you a -- appeared to be a warning, and it said that you should maintain a, quote, "healthy distance from anything of a personal nature when dealing with Epstein." Do you recall that now?
p. 61Mr. Gates.No. If you have a copy of the email, I'd be glad to see it.
p. 61Mr. Lynch.Yeah, okay. All right. No.
p. 61Mr. Gates.But let me comment on that. I did maintain some distance from Epstein.
p. 61Mr. Lynch.Yeah.
p. 61Mr. Gates.It was a mistake to meet with him. And, by August 2014, you know, this is a month before he finally does name specific people who we meet with in September, and none of those appear to be prospects. Then there's one further meeting in December, and then I cut off all ties with Epstein at that point.
p. 62Mr. Lynch.I understand that. But, from the very beginning of your relationship, he was a registered sex offender.
p. 62Mr. Gates.I didn't know he was a registered sex offender, but I did know that he had been guilty of a sexually related crime.
p. 62Mr. Lynch.Well, let me just go back to Melanie Walker. Melanie Walker really worked your staff pretty hard in terms of pushing Jeffrey Epstein. And, in one email to you, she describes him as her best friend. Also, Melanie Walker really pumped Epstein with Dr. Nikolic and also Larry Cohen. She went to Alex Freedman (ph) pushing Jeffrey Epstein, also established a relationship with Prince Andrew as well. You know, sort of following up with Mr. Khanna's questions, I saw her as someone who really pushed Epstein into your orbit and actually made those connections. And, you know, when you were asked who you thought might've shared the information about your infidelity, I thought of her. I did not think of Dr. Nikolic, because it was consistent with every -- she was an accolade of Epstein from the very beginning, gave him credit for suggesting she go to medical school. Could you talk a little about your relationship with Ms. Walker, because I think, in response to the ranking member's question, and I think she might be someone that this Committee would want to talk to?
p. 62Mr. Gates.Yeah. During the time I knew Epstein, between 2011 and 2014, the only time her name came up with Epstein was that at that first dinner he mentioned that he knew her. And, subsequently, all the meetings over the rest of the years, her name did not come up with him. In terms of her, she did send me an email after that first dinner asking about my impressions, which I responded to, but --
p. 62Mr. Lynch.Did she ever tell you that she was his science adviser or that she had lived in his buildings?
p. 62Mr. Gates.I wasn't aware of that, but I do believe that's now publicly known.
p. 62Mr. Lynch.Yeah. I'm just curious about --
p. 63Mr. Gates.No, I did not know that.
p. 63Mr. Lynch.Okay. All right. That's all I've got. Thank you.
p. 63Ms. Stansbury.All right. Good morning. Hi. I'm Melanie Stansbury. I represent New Mexico's First Congressional District, and I do appreciate you being here today. What I'd like to focus on during my time this morning is really to understand a little bit more about Mr. Epstein's world as you understood it because I think it will help us cut through some of the noise, especially in a truth commission that we're conducting in New Mexico to understand what he was doing there and what his interests were and how that allowed him access to abuse women. So you're one of the few people we've been able to talk to about what Epstein was [inaudible] scientifically. Through your conversations with him, through these meetings that you had during that time, what was Epstein interested in in the science world?
p. 63Mr. Gates.We never got into any depth on that, but he mentioned a number of people, you know, professors at universities, that he would talk to about varying scientific things. You know, some of those are names that I knew. He appeared to be a dilettante who, you know, would talk to lots of people in different fields. You know, that's different than my own approach, which is to pick software and be very focused on that --
p. 63Ms. Stansbury.Yeah.
p. 63Mr. Gates.-- now to pick Global Health.
p. 63Ms. Stansbury.Let me reframe the question a little bit. You met with him multiple times to discuss the opportunities for philanthropy and investment in scientific endeavors as well as Global Health.
p. 63Mr. Gates.No.
p. 63Ms. Stansbury.That's not what you said?
p. 63Mr. Gates.All the entire focus was raising money for Global Health. Now, work for Global Health can include creating new vaccines or things --
p. 64Ms. Stansbury.So what was the --
p. 64Mr. Gates.-- that have a scientific component to them.
p. 64Ms. Stansbury.Okay. So excuse me for using more plain language as opposed to focused language. What was the nature of those conversations? What were the topics that he was interested in?
p. 64Mr. Gates.You know, he had thoughts about economics. He had thoughts about psychology, you know, various macroeconomic things.
p. 64Ms. Stansbury.Were specific investment opportunities discussed?
p. 64Mr. Gates.No, I never -- I was never a coinvestor with Epstein. The focus was philanthropic money.
p. 64Ms. Stansbury.Okay. I think we're talking around the same thing. So philanthropic money to invest in what?
p. 64Mr. Gates.In Global Health.
p. 64Ms. Stansbury.But what specifically, sir?
p. 64Mr. Gates.Epstein wasn't knowledgeable about Global Health. So the Gates Foundation, which is deeply involved in Global Health, you know, when there's additional money coming from philanthropists, were able to provide advice to make sure that money has very high impact. But none of that specifically was discussed -- the idea of where it would go to wasn't discussed with Epstein.
p. 64Ms. Stansbury.Oh, Okay. So the nature of these conversations was more pitching him and his associates on getting wealthy donors to invest in your ventures?
p. 64Mr. Gates.If money had been forthcoming --
p. 64Ms. Stansbury.Yes.
p. 64Mr. Gates.-- it would've gone to things like the Global Alliance for Vaccines, which buys vaccines for children, or the Global Fund --
p. 65Ms. Stansbury.But you were --
p. 65Mr. Gates.I'm sorry?
p. 65Ms. Stansbury.You were essentially pitching him to invest?
p. 65Mr. Gates.I didn't pitch him. He told me that he had this close professional relationship with people, who at the time they were deciding what to do with all of their wealth --
p. 65Ms. Stansbury.Yeah.
p. 65Mr. Gates.-- was a context where he could suggest to them that that money could have a very powerful effect if it was dedicated to Global Health.
p. 65Ms. Stansbury.Okay. So your motivation in attending these meetings is you saw an opportunity to potentially bring other donors in to bringing their wealth to invest in your ventures. Is that a fair assessment?
p. 65Mr. Gates.Not invest, to give money away. And they're not my ventures. GAVI is an independent organization; Global Fund is an independent organization.
p. 65Ms. Stansbury.I'm using the word "invest" colloquially, so --
p. 65Mr. Gates.Okay. I'm sorry to be picky.
p. 65Ms. Stansbury.-- to be philanthropic givers.
p. 65Mr. Gates.Good point.
p. 65Ms. Stansbury.Okay.
p. 65Mr. Gates.Good point.
p. 65Ms. Stansbury.To be donors to your philanthropic endeavors, okay.
p. 65Mr. Gates.Well, again, this may be picky, but they're not mine, you know. The Gates Foundation --
p. 65Ms. Stansbury.I got you.
p. 65Mr. Gates.-- gives money to GAVI --
p. 65Ms. Stansbury.Yes.
p. 66Mr. Gates.-- but there are many other donors to the Global Alliance for Vaccines.
p. 66Ms. Stansbury.I got you. Okay. This is why you're a tech person; you're very precise. I'm using imprecise and a nontechnical language. So you've already established this morning that you were familiar with the fact that he had been convicted of a sexual crime. You've already established this morning that you were familiar that Mr. Epstein had this reputation, and you were concerned about it because you've already said you didn't want to be seen with him in a place that might affect your reputation. So I think that what I -- what many of us don't understand is, why did people like you continue to associate with him? Like why did your interest in accessing donors that he might know override your own moral compass of like "maybe I shouldn't associate with this convicted sex offender"?
p. 66Mr. Gates.Yeah.
p. 66Ms. Stansbury.I know you feel bad about it, but tell us like what went through your head where you're like, "Okay, yeah, I'll go have six meetings with him over these years."
p. 66Mr. Gates.Well, I've certainly -- you know, I'd met with people who'd been convicted of crimes and served their time. And, in my understanding, I did not understand that justice had not been done. It was a mistake to meet with him. I did feel at the time that, by narrowly defining his role as simply referring us to people who would give philanthropically to Global Health, that he would have no role in those things, and he would receive no compensation. I justified that getting billions of dollars for Global Health was worth spending time with him, and that was a complete dead end.
p. 66Ms. Stansbury.And so, in your mind, the ends justified the means?
p. 66Mr. Gates.No. I think that goes too strongly. But, during the whole time, 2011 to 2014, there was a, you know, constant consideration of, "Okay, let's make sure it's a very narrow role." And people would discuss, you know, is this going to come through or not; should we still engage or not? That was a consideration, and I made the final judgment to keep meeting with him, which was a mistake.
p. 67Ms. Stansbury.Let me just say, as we close things out, and I know there's other questions, you keep referring to the women that you did interact with in his orbit as being adult women. We have interviewed a number of his assistants, including one of his assistants who did work for Epstein as an adult woman, who was raped and sexually assaulted during her time. And so Epstein didn't just commit crimes against children; he was committing active crimes against these admin assistants that you met. And so, when you have said multiple times this morning you did not meet victims, you did not see women that he may have -- we do not believe that is so. We believe that this was completely normalized in his world as he was interacting with rich and powerful people. And so I hope that you can reframe that you may have actually witnessed abuse by these women being in his world, even if you did not witness the acts of abuse. So --
p. 67Mr. Gates.You're saying that -- I didn't -- I never witnessed any abuse.
p. 67Ms. Stansbury.Okay, sir. We know that his assistants were being abused actively by him.
p. 67Mr. Gates.I'm very sorry to hear that.
p. 67Ms. Stansbury.Yes. So, thank you.
p. 67Ms. Crockett.For purposes of the record, Jasmine Crockett, Texas.
p. 67Mr. Garcia.I think we're probably out of time now, so we can wrap it up. Mr. . We'll go off the record. Thank you. [Recess.] [1:02 p.m.]
p. 68Mr. Spectre.We can go on the record. Mr. Gates, during the majority's first hour, we discussed one draft email that was sent by Mr. Epstein to himself. There is a second somewhat similar email. I will enter that into the record as majority exhibit 3. [Gates Majority Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.]
p. 68QIt is an email also from July 18, 2013; this time at 1:33 p.m. It's Bates marked as EFTA 01967528. I'll give you a second to look at it. Have you seen this email before?
p. 68AOnly as part of the release of the Epstein files.
p. 68QSo you had not seen this email until it was released publicly by the Department of Justice. Is that right?
p. 68AThat's right.
p. 68QHad you seen any email that was similar to it or close to it, or you'd seen nothing like this before?
p. 68ANothing like this.
p. 68QWhat was your reaction when you saw this in the Epstein files?
p. 68AIt looked like -- it looks like Epstein is suggesting -- well, it's an email to himself. So who knows if he ever sent it to Dr. Nikolic, but it looks like he's musing on using a mixture of facts and falsities as an effort, almost like a blackmail, to advance some goal in improving Dr. Nikolic's negotiating position as part of his exit from my employ.
p. 68QI will read parts of the email into the record starting with -- near the top. It's at the third sentence. "You have decided to discharge me from my job; had Larry, your PR person, tell me that I engaged in morally inappropriate behavior; and then asked me to be the major actor in a coverup so that you can maintain the reputation that you have worked so hard to achieve," end quote. For the record, is it fair to say that the person being referenced here, Larry, your PR person, is that Larry Cohen?
p. 69AWell, Larry was not my PR person. But, in a word, speculating on a person who, particularly in the emails to himself, you know, generated literally dozens of false things, that sentence may refer to Larry Cohen, but he was not my PR person.
p. 69QFair enough. But was Mr. Cohen involved in any way in the discussions about Mr. Nikolic, Dr. Nikolic's departure?
p. 69AYes.
p. 69QThank you. Did you direct Larry Cohen to tell Mr. Nikolic that he had engaged in morally inappropriate behavior?
p. 69ANo.
p. 69QDid Larry Cohen, to your knowledge, ever tell Dr. Nikolic that he had engaged in morally inappropriate behavior?
p. 69AI don't believe so.
p. 69QHave you talked to Mr. Cohen about that?
p. 69ANo.
p. 69QHave you had any discussions with Mr. Cohen about this email since seeing it in the Epstein files?
p. 69ANo.
p. 69QDo you believe that Dr. Nikolic had engaged in any morally inappropriate behavior?
p. 69AWell, depending on how you characterize his not telling my wife about affairs I'd had, that's the extent of it.
p. 70QDid you ever tell Dr. Nikolic explicitly to keep these affairs, his knowledge of these affairs, private?
p. 70ANo, I didn't. In fact, you'll see an email from me where I say during the exit negotiations that, if they're trying to change the terms away from what was agreed to before Epstein's involvement, that we won't reach agreement and if that involves -- I mean, you can pull the exact email, but I say, if that involves things being disclosed about me, I'll just bear that pain, but I'm not going to change my offer to Dr. Nikolic as part of the exit agreement.
p. 70QI understand. Let's go back a little further though, when Dr. Nikolic first became aware of these two affairs. At that point in time, I think I asked you earlier if you ever discussed the affairs with Dr. Nikolic. But did you ever initially tell Dr. Nikolic that you expected him to keep this as a secret for you?
p. 70AI did not.
p. 70QYou just assumed that he wouldn't share it?
p. 70AWe never discussed it.
p. 70QHow long from the start of the first affair to when you told Melinda, how long was that?
p. 70AProbably several years.
p. 70QSeveral years or 7 years? Sorry.
p. 70AI said several years.
p. 70QSeveral years. So, over the course of those several years, you never had a conversation with Dr. Nikolic asking him to kind of -- to keep this a secret?
p. 70AI did not.
p. 70QI'll continue reading. It's a little bit further down, still near the top. It says, "Larry has now asked me to recommit to a confidentiality agreement and have categorically told me that you were of firm mind that we should no longer have any direct ongoing business relationship, with a total disregard for its impact on the public perception of my reputation. You have requested that I diligently avoid the truth, tell people that Bill will not invest with me, and craft answers that suits yours and Melinda's needs." I think you've already answered part of my questions about this, but I guess I'll ask in a different way: Did you have any -- as part of his position or otherwise, did you have any confidentiality agreement with Dr. Nikolic about anything?
p. 71AI'm not sure.
p. 71QYou're not aware of whether you had any legal nondisclosure agreement or anything of the sort with Dr. Nikolic?
p. 71AI'm not.
p. 71QAnd let me just be clear: You with him or the Gates Foundation or any of the other ventures, do you know if those entities had nondisclosure agreements with Dr. Nikolic?
p. 71AYou know, Dr. Nikolic, I assume, when he worked for the foundation, which had ended, you know, a long time before this, there may be a standard nondisclosure as part of that. I don't know. Likewise, when he joins Gates Ventures, there may be some standard nondisclosure. But I was never part of any discussion about that with anyone, including Dr. Nikolic.
p. 71QAnd, if there was a nondisclosure agreement with Dr. Nikolic that you're not aware of, that wouldn't have anything to do with the affairs. Is that fair to say?
p. 71ANo. As I told you, I sent in an email that, if they were trying to ask for a change in the exit package, then I said I would just bear the pain of whatever disclosures resulted thereafter.
p. 71QAnd, since the topic of nondisclosure agreements have been brought up, at any point did you or any of your representatives or agents ask anyone to sign a nondisclosure agreement or other agreement in connection to Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, or any of their victims?
p. 71ANo.
p. 71QAnd have you or any of your representatives or agents had conversations about nondisclosure agreements with any victims or their lawyers related to Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 72ANo.
p. 72QAnd, at any point, did you or any of your representatives secure a settlement in connection to Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, or any of their victims?
p. 72ANo.
p. 72QThank you.
p. 72QI will continue reading. I'll read just a portion of this one. It starts with, "I can assure you that, if the shoe was on the other foot, I would would've said, Boris, this is not your fault."
p. 72Mr. Gates.Can you point out where he is?
p. 72Mr. Moran.Yep.
p. 72Mr. Gates.Okay. There you are.
p. 72Q"I can assure you that if the shoe was on the other foot, I would've said, Boris, this is not your fault. I confessed to Melinda. You didn't. It was in a moment of weakness, and I promise that will do anything within my power to make it right for you. I have more money than anyone needs, and I do my utmost to structure something that you will not be penalized for my error." I'll end reading the quote there, but he goes on to kind of describe what it is that you should have done for Dr. Nikolic. Again, I think I asked you about this a little bit earlier, but it seems to be characterizing the nature of Dr. Nikolic's departure as being about, you know, your confession to your ex-wife, to your then-wife. Did your wife ever meet with Dr. Nikolic directly to discuss this?
p. 72ANot to my knowledge.
p. 72QThe next portion that I will read, it's a little bit further down, near the bottom: "What I did receive, however."
p. 73AOkay. Let's track that. Okay. Here we are.
p. 73Q"What I did receive, however, was an unfriendly, strongly worded email telling me how employable I am and that I should not look to you for any significant financial help in the future. To add insult to the injury, you then subsequently, with tears in your eyes, implore me to please delete the emails regarding your STD, your request that I provide you antibiotics that you can surreptitiously give to Melinda, and the description of your penis. You also made it clear to me that I am not to refer to" -- redacted -- "as that is another topic that must remain between the two of us. In return for all of these requests, which I would've done without a second thought, I am not to attend meetings with Melinda. I should continue to provide you the same level of service and dedication that I have done so diligently until you are ready to discard me and our friendship sometime after the first of the year." So there's a lot going on here. Just initially, Dr. Nikolic or, again, Mr. Epstein seems to be referring to a strongly worded email that it seems you may have sent to Dr. Nikolic. Do you recall what that might have been?
p. 73ANo. I mean, at some point, I told him that would he have talked to me about leaving to go do venture capital that that would have to happen fairly quickly, because Melinda and I agreed that he should leave my employ.
p. 73QYour discussions in person or over email with Dr. Nikolic about his departure, were they, in your view, generally cordial, or was it a contentious interaction?
p. 73AWell, there's two different times. There's the time before he involves Epstein, where I would say they were cordial. Then he sort of cedes to Epstein, and Epstein -- you know, none of the stuff in this email ever came up, but, at most, he made veiled threats, like "we should remain friends," but I chose not to change the exit offer that I made. And I made it clear that I would bear whatever disclosures came out of our failure to reach a fair exit agreement.
p. 73QSo, over the course of you not being willing to change your position, things may have gotten a little bit more contentious between --
p. 74ANot with Dr. Nikolic, but, you know, Epstein actually came out to Seattle one time during these discussions, and, you know, it was weird because I said, you know, I got an offer that treats him fairly, and "if you're here to ask for more than that, I'm not changing it." And, in fact, I did not change it. We reached the agreement, and Dr. Nikolic left my employ.
p. 74QWe'll get into that meeting in Seattle in a little while. However, I'll note for you now that it seems to have occurred on August 8, 2013. This email is from July 18, 2013. So this email seems to predate whatever that meeting was. I'm just trying to understand, you know, maybe it was a strongly worded email. Maybe it was something in person, but when did the contentious nature of the interactions with Dr. Nikolic or Mr. Epstein arise?
p. 74AThere was never any contentious nature with Dr. Nikolic, and it's hard to characterize the Epstein stuff because there was never a direct threat of any kind. There was always this veiled language like "we should remain friends," you know, which made me wonder what Dr. Nikolic had shared with him. But, as I said, I responded to all of that with a great deal of clarity. You can introduce that email or not.
p. 74QSo the portion that I had just read, it also makes reference to the fact that you -- the email says that, "you implored me to please delete the emails regarding your STD and your request that I provide you antibiotics that you can surreptitiously give Melinda and the description of your penis." Did you ever tell Dr. Nikolic to delete emails in general?
p. 74AI did not.
p. 74QDid you ever send Dr. Nikolic an email that included the three things I just described?
p. 74AI never had an STD. I never described my penis to Dr. Nikolic. What's the other one? I've said I may have indicated some concern about whether I had an STD; I don't recall that. But I never had an STD. I never gave medicines to anyone covertly.
p. 74QAnd, just for the record, during the time where you were concerned that you might have an infection, did you ever discuss or consider surreptitiously giving antibiotics to your then-wife?
p. 75AI did not.
p. 75QThank you. Do you know what the redacted word or words are at the bottom of the page?
p. 75AIt's just black.
p. 75QSo this redaction was made by the Department of Justice in their release of the Epstein files. Members of the committee have had the opportunity to look underneath of redactions at the Department of Justice. So I will stipulate to you that the redacted words are a name. It's Alice Jacobs, and we understand her full name to be Alice Jacobs Nesselrodt. Do you know who that person is?
p. 75AI do.
p. 75QWho is she?
p. 75AShe's a doctor who does consulting related to health services, I believe.
p. 75QHave you ever met her before?
p. 75AI have.
p. 75QDid you meet her in connection with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 75ANo.
p. 75QHow did you meet her?
p. 75AShe was at a conference that I went to.
p. 75QDo you recall approximately what year?
p. 75ABefore 2010.
p. 75QAccording to the DOJ files, Ms. Nesselrodt appears to have initially made contact with Jeffrey Epstein over email in October 2009, and it seems she was ultimately the one that introduced Epstein and Nikolic. Did you know that?
p. 75ANo. I thought it was -- I mean, what I've read in the press is it was Dr. Walker. I don't know -- I mean, I think even recently a press thing said it was Dr. Walker. But I don't -- I have no knowledge of who did that introduction.
p. 76QIn one email, she referred to Boris as her, quote, best friend. Did you know that she and Dr. Nikolic were friends at all?
p. 76AWho?
p. 76QIn one email, Ms. Nesselrodt, Dr. Nesselrodt, referred to Boris as her best friend. Did you know that Dr. Nesselrodt and Dr. Nikolic were friends?
p. 76AI knew that they knew each other in a professional context.
p. 76QDid you know whether Dr. Nesselrodt knew Mr. Epstein?
p. 76ANo, I have no awareness of that.
p. 76QSo it says -- I'll read it again for you: "You also made it clear to me that I am not to refer to Alice Jacobs as that is another topic that must remain between the two of us." What do you make of that? What do you think that they're talking about?
p. 76AThey? This is a mail from one man to himself that I've never seen before, so --
p. 76QWhat do you think the --
p. 76AWhat does it mean when a man sends a mail to himself -- I'm not sure.
p. 76QSure. As it shows in majority exhibit 1, Dr. Nikolic and Mr. Epstein were coordinating on how to deal with you. I appreciate that you are -- we cannot say for certain what the context of this email is given that it was sent from Mr. Epstein to himself. But it is written from the perspective of Dr. Nikolic, and so I will just ask you the question this way: Do you have any reason to believe that anyone would think that there is something about Alice Jacobs that you needed to keep between yourself and Dr. Nikolic?
p. 76AWell, there was a time when I had an affair with Dr. Jacobs. So that may fit that category.
p. 76QOkay. What year did that begin?
p. 77ABefore 2010.
p. 77QAnd this is why I was asking earlier about your other affairs, which, you know, I can appreciate your perspective that you don't believe any of these people to be connected with Jeffrey Epstein, but it seems he was connected to a lot of people, including Dr. Nesselrodt.
p. 77AAs we sit here today, I'm not aware of the connection between Dr. Jacobs and Mr. Epstein.
p. 77QDid you ever have a conversation with Dr. Nikolic about your affair with Dr. Jacobs, Dr. Nesselrodt?
p. 77ANo. No.
p. 77QHow do you believe that he knew that Dr. Nikolic knew about your affair?
p. 77AHe was friends, you know, a consultant to her. So I'm not completely surprised that he might've been aware of it.
p. 77QIs it possible that Mr. Epstein heard it directly from Dr. Nesselrodt?
p. 77AI doubt that very much. As I said, I'm not aware of any connection between Dr. Jacobs and Epstein.
p. 77QDid Dr. -- should we call her Dr. Jacobs or Dr. Nesselrodt?
p. 77ALet's call her Dr. Jacobs.
p. 77QDid Dr. Jacobs, did her name come up in any of the discussions with regard to Dr. Nikolic's departure from his employment?
p. 77ANever.
p. 77QWas your affair with Dr. Jacobs -- did you disclose your affair with Dr. Jacobs to your wife Melinda at the same time you disclosed the two we've already talked about?
p. 77AThat would've been earlier.
p. 77QSo your wife, Melinda, was aware of the affair with Dr. Jacobs earlier, and then you told her of the two additional affairs at a later date?
p. 78AThat's right.
p. 78QDo you recall when approximately you informed your wife about your affair with Dr. Jacobs?
p. 78ANo.
p. 78QDid Dr. Nikolic know that Melinda was aware of this affair?
p. 78AI don't know.
p. 78QThank you. And so, just looking at this email in its entirety, I think you've already used the word "blackmail." I was going to ask you, in reading it, it strikes me as like sort of a shakedown of you. I didn't read the whole thing to you, but there's that long part where the email describes what it is that it wishes you would have done for Boris, including, you know, 30 to 40 percent of $100 million partnership for $30 million in today's dollars?
p. 78AWhere are you reading? Yeah, there you are.
p. 78QAbove that it also says, "I suggest I buy you the house that you so had your heart set on." Did discussions of you purchasing a house for Dr. Nikolic ever come up during negotiations with him?
p. 78ANot in the negotiations with him, but while he was in my employ, I was aware there was a place in New York he was looking at buying, and he asked me if I would loan him money for that, and I turned him down.
p. 78QDo you know the approximate value of that?
p. 78ANo, it could've been -- it was above $10 million.
p. 78QAbove $10 million. Apologies for going out of order here, but, again, just above that 30 to 40 percent line and above -- just above that 30 to 40 percent line, it says, "and in addition to 5 years of severance." Was there ever a discussion of providing Dr. Nikolic 5 years of his pay as part of his severance?
p. 78ANo.
p. 79QDo you know what Dr. Nikolic's annual compensation was approximately?
p. 79AI would be guessing, you know, above $100,000, probably below $200,000.
p. 79QSo 5 years would be between $500,000 and $1 million is what this email is describing in terms of a severance payment?
p. 79AWell, independent of the email, I can multiply five times $100,000 and $200,000 very quickly. So it'd be between $500,000 and $1 million.
p. 79QAnd were there any discussions with Dr. Nikolic about a severance payment between $500,000 and $1 million?
p. 79ANo.
p. 79QI know you've already described it a little bit, but can you explain what the ultimate dollar value of Dr. Nikolic's severance package was?
p. 79AWell, the biggest economic thing between Dr. Nikolic and Gates Ventures was the sharing of the profit from the two investments that he made. And, you know, we had agreed to share the profits on those investments before he left. That was part of his saying he was going to go to Venture Capital, and my saying, "Okay, why don't you stay for a little longer, and we'll almost do like, you know, almost venture capital type things," which was, you know, very unusual. I didn't do that with employees. And so, you know, his portion of those investments was substantial because I had quite a bit of profit from the investments that were made. And so there's that part, which is not due to his leaving; that was because of the prior verbal agreement between Dr. Nikolic and I. Beyond that, I think he got a fairly standard exit package, which would have been on the order of 6 to 9 months of compensation.
p. 79QSo fair to say under $1 million?
p. 79AFor the extra compensation, yes. But the value of the stocks was, you know, substantial, over $5 million.
p. 80Mr. Spectre.Ms. Boebert, do you have some questions?
p. 80Ms. Boebert.Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Gates, for being here today. I have a couple of questions about your involvement with Mr. Epstein in relation to the scientific studies that you were both -- that you work on and that he is intrigued by. Mr. Gates, Epstein was deeply involved in eugenics transhumanism and plans to propagate his own DNA through genetic engineering. During your multiple meetings, did he ever discuss his genetic ambitions, population engineering ideas, or try to tie them to your foundations, vaccine, and Global Health initiatives?
p. 80Mr. Gates.He did not.
p. 80Ms. Boebert.None of that ever came up, the talk of vaccines?
p. 80Mr. Gates.Never came up.
p. 80Ms. Boebert.Okay. And then so, given Epstein's Harvard genome project involvement with CRISPR, C-R-I-S-P-R, interests around the same time as your meetings, did he ever pitch any ideas with that program to you for DNA research?
p. 80Mr. Gates.No.
p. 80Ms. Boebert.Were there ever any other meetings with anyone in his circle that talked about any kind of scientific DNA research that was taking place or vaccines with your Global Health initiative?
p. 80Mr. Gates.No.
p. 80Ms. Boebert.When you first started interacting with Jeffrey Epstein -- you are notably one of the most powerful men in the world, and I would say that you have a vast amount of resources. How was there not a vetting process for this relationship to begin, and were there red flags that you had ignored completely or just were completely unaware of?
p. 80Mr. Gates.Well, I was aware that he had a criminal conviction, as I've discussed.
p. 80Ms. Boebert.Correct. Because is it true that you began a more formal relationship with Jeffrey Epstein after that conviction?
p. 81Mr. Gates.Yeah, I think his conviction was in 2008 or 2009, and I first meet him in 2011.
p. 81Ms. Boebert.Correct. And so, with that criminal conviction, it was enough for him to say that this was a lie or that you would believe that he was innocent in some manner and continue having these meetings with him?
p. 81Mr. Gates.We didn't discuss his criminal conviction.
p. 81Ms. Boebert.And it didn't bother you that you were doing business, philanthropy work with a man that had these convictions?
p. 81Mr. Gates.It was a concern and part of the reason that I defined his potential role quite narrowly and eventually brought it to an end. But I have regret that I didn't factor that into a greater degree.
p. 81Ms. Boebert.So you never discussed his criminal convictions whatsoever with him?
p. 81Mr. Gates.No.
p. 81Ms. Boebert.What were the discussions during your meetings?
p. 81Mr. Gates.Which meeting?
p. 81Ms. Boebert.Well, okay, let's take it back. How many meetings overall do you think that you had in person with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 81Mr. Gates.Let's see, there were three in 2011 and two in 2012. There's like five or six -- although some of those are Skype calls -- in 2013, and five or six in 2014.
p. 81Ms. Boebert.Thank you for that detailed response, and I know that you've mentioned that earlier, at least in part. Were the topics generally the same during all of those meetings? I'm aware that you said that sometimes it would've been a year, and so you were kind of recapping what you had been doing for the previous year. But, generally, what were the topics of these meetings?
p. 81Mr. Gates.Well, I would differentiate -- you know, clearly there were meetings that had to do with Dr. Nikolic's leaving Gates Ventures' employ. There were mostly meetings that talked about the potential for billions of philanthropic donations. Then a number of those meetings there were other people. So like, when Larry Summers is there, we're talking about the economy and what's going on with that; likewise, Jes Staley was at that same dinner. When the two Norwegians are there, we're talking about what's gone on with the United Nations and what's going on in world affairs very generally. You know, so there were a variety of topics, including me talking about my goals in Global Health.
p. 82Ms. Boebert.So you were talking about your goals in Global Health, and was Epstein ever intrigued and inquiring more about this, and did he ever offer up his own information that he had been studying?
p. 82Mr. Gates.To my awareness, he wasn't somebody who knew much about Global Health. You know, when he would talk about the various topics that he was a dilettante on, Global Health was never one of those.
p. 82Ms. Boebert.I guess Global Health, that could be broad. So your meetings with Epstein overlapped with your heavy push on this global vaccines and population-related initiative. And so you're saying that Epstein never had any discussions with you or influenced those areas even indirectly through his network?
p. 82Mr. Gates.Okay, let's be clear. What initiative are you referring to?
p. 82Ms. Boebert.Well, your Global Health initiatives, your massive push for vaccines and population-related initiatives.
p. 82Mr. Gates.What's the connection -- there's no connection. So I'm not understanding what you're referring to. There are vaccines, and we're a funder of GAVI that buys vaccines for children, you know, which is the primary reason childhood death has gone from 10 million a year down to below 5 million a year. That has nothing to do with population.
p. 82Ms. Boebert.Okay. Well, commas between those topics. So, okay, were you ever talking with him about those vaccines, and did he have any influence in those areas?
p. 83Mr. Gates.No.
p. 83Ms. Boebert.Okay. It's just a little difficult because we have powerful people, like yourself, that are claiming they didn't know anything about Epstein's activities that were happening, even if aware of conviction, it wasn't enough of an issue to separate business or personal or have meetings whatsoever, despite, you know, these years of association, people in these powerful positions are saying they absolutely knew nothing. And, as someone who prides themself --
p. 83Mr. Gates.I can only speak for myself.
p. 83Ms. Boebert.Correct. Yes, sir. And as someone who prides himself on data and evidence, I just -- I don't know how you explain missing that the victims and court records show that this was going on for so long.
p. 83Mr. Gates.What was going on for so long?
p. 83Ms. Boebert.All of Epstein's sex crimes.
p. 83Mr. Gates.I was not aware of any ongoing crimes.
p. 83Ms. Boebert.Okay. I think that's all the questions I have for now. Thank you, Mr. Gates.
p. 83Mr. Moran.And, before we go, Mr. Gates referred to an email exchange where he conveyed to Jeffrey Epstein that, you know, regardless of what Boris was going to say, he wasn't going to change the terms of the deal. We tracked down Bates No. for that, so that's EFTA 01964053.
p. 83Mr. Spectre.Thank you.
p. 83Mr. Moran.Yeah.
p. 83Mr. Spectre.Mr. Gates, in the interest of time, I'm going to try not to introduce too many different things here. So I'll try to structure the questions in a way that we can do that, but just let me know if we need to. We discussed earlier that a meeting occurred with Epstein present in Washington. You mentioned that earlier, and I think I told you that our DOJ records indicated that happened on August 8, 2013. Does that sound about right to you?
p. 84Mr. Moran.Sorry, you said in D.C. or in Washington State?
p. 84QSorry, excuse me, in Seattle.
p. 84AYeah, the two Washingtons.
p. 84QI call this one D.C.
p. 84AYeah, my chronology shows that a meeting took place in Washington State.
p. 84QWho else was at this meeting?
p. 84AYou know, I think this is a case where Epstein flew out to Seattle and came to the Gates Ventures office, and so he would've seen both myself and Larry Cohen as part of his being out there. I don't know if Dr. Nikolic was there or not.
p. 84QWhat do you recall about the meeting? What was discussed?
p. 84AI think that meeting was entirely focused on the terms of Dr. Nikolic's exit.
p. 84QAnd was this a meeting where Mr. Epstein was trying yet again to get additional compensation for Dr. Nikolic and you were refusing? Is that a fair generalization of it?
p. 84AThat's the outcome, yes, that he, despite, you know, sort of veiled things like saying we should remain friends, you know, I had not asked him to be involved in these exit negotiations, and so it was, in the end, kind of a worthless meeting.
p. 84Mr. Spectre.I'll introduce as majority exhibit 4, this is an email chain. [Gates Majority Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.]
p. 84QThe first email, which is at the bottom -- pass this out -- yeah. The first email, which is at the bottom, is from Friday, August 9, 2013, at 10:47 p.m. The Bates No. is EFTA 01959891. So that first email at the bottom again is from Boris Nikolic to Bill Gates, cc Larry Cohen. Subject, "Jeffrey-thank you." The message is on the backside of the page that was passed out. It says, "Bill, yesterday was very difficult for both of us. It would be great if you could write Jeffrey a thank-you note as he flew out here to try to help, and I think he did. I thanked him with my deepest gratitude. I know he saved me. I think he saved us both. Boris." So, given your description of what happened, what do you make of that? Did Mr. Epstein save you and Dr. Nikolic in some way?
p. 85AHe did not.
p. 85QWhat do you think Boris meant by this?
p. 85AI don't know. I think, at some point, Boris realized that introducing Epstein was a mistake. But, you know, he had asked me, when Epstein did get involved, to send an email to Epstein, which I did, and then here he asks me to send an email to him thanking him, which I went ahead and did. [1:41 p.m.]
p. 86QAgain, Dr. Nikolic says, "he flew out here to try to help. And I think he did." And your testimony today has sort of been the opposite; it's that Jeffrey Epstein's involvement in these negotiations were useless and accomplished nothing.
p. 86AYeah. It's completely provable, because the offer to Boris is the same. What he ends up with is the same, so you know, that's just black and white facts.
p. 86QThe next email, so the middle email on the first page, you respond to Dr. Nikolic, with Larry Cohen cc'd again. You say, "I agree. Jeffrey was quite helpful and he put in a lot of time in. Without him it would have been harder. I will send him a thank you." So it seems like you're saying something a little different in this email than what you're saying right now. Is that fair?
p. 86AI would -- I was willing to go along with the narrative that Jeffrey had been helpful. I wanted to get the thing closed. You know, I had decided that Dr. Nikolic should leave my employ. He wanted to say that we made progress. I knew that the offer on the table, I wanted Dr. Nikolic to accept that. So I don't feel these comments were made in sincerity but in the furtherance of, hey, this is Boris' mindset, he now feels good, I -- I think you should bring forward the other email that we referred to because that would give you very helpful context.
p. 86QSo you said, though, you did ultimately send Mr. Epstein a thank you.
p. 86AAs I was asked to do, yes.
p. 86QI'm trying not to flood you with more paper here, so I'll just ask about it generally. Do you recall what you -- what the nature of the thank you was?
p. 86AI said thank you. I mean, Boris -- both at the start of Epstein's involvement and at the end, he asked me to send an email, which may have actually been my very first email to Mr. Epstein, was the initiation of his involvement in Dr. Nikolic's exit.
p. 87QIn this thank you email that you sent to Mr. Epstein, you make reference to structuring the payment as a gift and you're discussing how you paid gift taxes on it. Is it your recollection that the severance payment to Dr. Nikolic was structured as a gift? Is that --
p. 87ANo. No. You're confusing something that's absolutely separate.
p. 87QOkay.
p. 87ANo connection with Dr. Nikolic's exit. At the time that Dr. Nikolic came to work at the Gates Foundation, he had some ongoing consulting agreements, so this is 5 years, 6 years earlier. And I made, at that time, so that Boris could walk away from those things without a net loss, I made a half million dollar gift to Dr. Nikolic. But that's like 6 years earlier before -- certainly before I met Epstein and I believe before Dr. Nikolic had met Epstein. The reason that came up in the exit discussions was Epstein, having apparently heard about that payment from 6 years ago, tried to insert some doubt about how the taxes hadn't been paid on that. And this was not the only time, but this is where he tried to insert himself as, hey, I could give you tax advice, why don't you send me documents. And, you know, you probably should show me the email, because I was very black and white that I'm the most careful about paying taxes of anyone I know. I have great professionals. I was not going to send him any tax documents. That was structured as a gift. I paid a gift tax. And so we're talking about a half million that's nothing to do with this exit agreement at all.
p. 87QOkay. That is helpful context, and for the record, that is what you say at the end of the email. You say, "I will bet I am more careful about gift taxes than almost any other taxpayer."
p. 87AYeah. I believe that in my $14 billion of tax payments, I probably paid more gift taxes than others.
p. 87QMore than me.
p. 87Mr. Moran.And I'll just note that the same email ending in Bates number 053 that we referenced earlier contains some of that same exchange about the tax treatment issue as well.
p. 88Mr. Spectre.Okay.
p. 88QMr. Gates, I want to talk a little bit -- I know we've already talked about it, and I'll try to be brief and not go back over too many of the same things, but the three extramarital affairs that we've now discussed in today's interview. For the first one, I'll -- so Mila Antonova. If it's all right with you, I can refer to her as the bridge player. Is that -- or I can call her Ms. Antonova.
p. 88AThat's fine. Fine.
p. 88QI think you said earlier, but do you recall when you first met her?
p. 88AAt a bridge tournament.
p. 88QAnd where was this bridge tournament?
p. 88AI'm not sure.
p. 88QAnd it was prior to meeting Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 88AYes.
p. 88QAnd when -- do you recall when you learned that Ms. Antonova had some sort of interaction with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 88AIt would have been when he sent mail suggesting that he had reimbursed her or paid for something in connec- -- in relationship to her.
p. 88QAnd this was years -- a couple years after you'd ceased communications with Mr. Epstein. Is that correct?
p. 88ANo. No. It's right at the end or soon after the end. No, I think it's right after the end that he sends an email. And most of the emails he sent me were after I never talked to him again, because he made many attempts to reengage. But he sent me mail about those reimbursements, and then I went to Larry Cohen, who communicated that I didn't feel it was appropriate or I was under any obligation to reimburse him for what he may have done.
p. 88QDid anyone else -- who else may have known about your affair -- about this affair?
p. 89AI don't know who.
p. 89QBoris Nikolic, Jeffrey Epstein, and eventually you told your wife. Did anyone else during that period, intervening period, know about it, as far as you know?
p. 89ANot that I'm aware of. Maybe a therapist, but I guess I can exclude my discussions with therapists.
p. 89QAnd then same sort of questions for Ms. Nigmatulina, the nuclear physicist, as we've discussed earlier. I think when you've talked about this publicly, you said that you met her through business activities. Is that right?
p. 89AThat's right.
p. 89QWhat sort of business activities?
p. 89AShe worked on both disease modeling and nuclear fission work, and I met her in connection with that.
p. 89QWork that the Gates Foundation was involved with overlapped with her work?
p. 89ANo, it's not Gates Foundation work. It's work that -- it was either TerraPower work or work that I funded, not connected to the foundation.
p. 89QFor the record, what is TerraPower?
p. 89AIt's a nuclear fission -- fourth-generation nuclear fission company.
p. 89QThat you fund or --
p. 89AI'm a substantial investor in TerraPower.
p. 89QDid Ms. Nigmatulina work directly for TerraPower at all?
p. 89AYes. I'm a little confused about when she worked on the disease modeling project and when she did some work for TerraPower. I think they may have even overlapped, but after she finished both of those pieces of work is when our affair started.
p. 89QAnd do you recall approximately the year that the affair started?
p. 89AI mean, I -- I can find out.
p. 90QWas it prior to you meeting Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 90ANo, I should look. The only time -- the time I became aware he knew about that affair was when the Epstein files were released this year.
p. 90QThat's when you found out that Mr. Epstein was aware of this affair, is what you're saying?
p. 90ARight. In those emails to himself, among the true and false things that he stuck in there, in one of those emails he mentions her name.
p. 90QBut for the record, the way that you met her through these business activities, it had nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein in any way?
p. 90ANothing. Not in any way.
p. 90QAnd you -- did you ever have a conversation with Ms. Nigmatulina about Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 90ANever.
p. 90QAnd then same sorts of questions for Dr. Jacobs. You may have said and, I'm sorry, but can you remind me what year approximately your affair with her began?
p. 90ABefore 2010.
p. 90QSo prior to you ever meeting Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 90AThat's right.
p. 90QAnd so you had no awareness of any relationship or of any relationship between her and Mr. Epstein?
p. 90AThat's right.
p. 90QAnd do you have any awareness of her relationship with Mr. Epstein as you sit here today?
p. 90AI do not.
p. 90QI'll ask you the same question for Ms. Antonova. Sitting here today, do you have any additional context or awareness of her interactions with Mr. Epstein besides what we've talked about?
p. 91AWell, I read in the press several years ago that she commented that she had met Mr. Epstein and that he'd paid some expenses and that she wasn't aware that that was something he was communicating back to me.
p. 91QSo the only additional awareness you have about her interactions with Mr. Epstein are through public reporting?
p. 91AWell, he sends me emails, you know, after I've stopped meeting with him. There's a bunch of emails where he's referring to her, even one time purporting that I had asked him to do these things, which is false. But there's a number of emails from him relating to the woman we're calling the bridge player.
p. 91QAnd I'll ask you the same question for Ms. Nigmatulina. Do you have any other knowledge today about her interactions with or communications with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 91AI'd be stunned if there ever were any, so, no, I don't.
p. 91QOther than that you now know that he was aware of your affair?
p. 91AThat's right. But that's not communication to her.
p. 91QThat's correct. I want to talk a little bit more about this blackmail that I think you characterized these draft -- these emails Epstein sent to himself as potential blackmail.
p. 91AAs I see them today, that's, you know, my guess about what he might be thinking about.
p. 91QDo you think he was hoping to take a cut of this proposed deal he was offering for Dr. Nikolic?
p. 91AI'm not aware of that. He may have.
p. 91QHe never -- did he ever ask you for money directly paid to him or was it always this discussion of money for Dr. Nikolic?
p. 91AHe at one point in kind of a weird email says that I -- he purports that I had said that I was in his debt but that he said I wasn't in his debt. And the truth is I never said he was in his debt -- but despite his saying that he didn't think I was in his debt in that email, he seems to ask for donations to be made in his name to a variety of entities. So that's along those lines of, hey, I helped out with this exit and you owe me even though the email says you don't owe me.
p. 92QDid you ever make a donation to any entity in Jeffrey Epstein's name or for him?
p. 92ANever in his name.
p. 92QDid you ever make a donation to any entity that he had asked you to donate to?
p. 92AYeah. There's an intersection of the list he sent to me and an institution that I've given to literally for decades through my work at Microsoft, personally and through the foundation, which is MIT. And I did make a $2 million donation to MIT, I think -- well, I made it -- we can get the date -- during -- overlapping during the -- this period that I knew Epstein.
p. 92QWas that donation related in any way to Mr. Epstein or are you saying it's happenstance since you'd already been donating to them?
p. 92AI'd say the timing was somewhat related; that is, I've given to MIT many times. There's a building there. You know, there's some ongoing medical work, which is absolutely fantastic. But I gave a 2 million donation without, you know, mentioning Mr. Epstein's name, you know, not related to any program he was involved in. And so that was the primary purpose was to help MIT. As a secondary thing, I did tell Mr. Epstein about that donation, hoping that that might factor into his no longer coming to me and asking for donations in his name, which is something I'd been clear I was not going to do.
p. 92QSo, just to be clear, the donation to MIT was not in response to any blackmail or threats that Mr. Epstein made?
p. 92ANo. The primary purpose was to get resources to MIT who had always used my gifts in a very effective way. There was a secondary thing that I told Epstein about it hoping that would bring to an end this weird set of emails where he acted like I should make a donation in his name.
p. 93Mr. Grant.And did MIT ever discuss Jeffrey Epstein with you at any point during this donation process?
p. 93Mr. Gates.No. No. In fact, they did an investigation to make sure that the donation was not Epstein related and found that it was not.
p. 93Mr. Grant.And did they talk to you as part of that investigation?
p. 93Mr. Gates.Yes.
p. 93QAgain, I'll try to avoid too much paper, but a representative for you and the media said that, "Mr. Gates met with Epstein solely for philanthropic purposes. Having failed repeatedly to draw Mr. Gates beyond these matters, Epstein tried unsuccessfully to leverage a past relationship to threaten Mr. Gates." So let's talk about that last part first, he tried unsuccessfully to leverage a past relationship. Is that the three affairs we've discussed or is it something else?
p. 93AThe -- Dr. Jacobs never came up with Mr. Epstein in any way, shape, or form, so it certainly doesn't refer to that. As I said, the -- during that exit period, there was never an explicit, hey, if you don't do something, I will reveal this. There was the veiled type of language, hey, we should all want to be friends. And as I've said, I took that on very explicitly and said, look, if you think you're going to get more money out of this, it's not going to happen, and if that means you go out and talk to people about things, I will just bear the pain of that and deal with it. And so I was -- I was not blackmailed, but, you know, as you look at these emails, you know, it looks like Mr. Epstein's brainstorming was going in that direction.
p. 93QAnd just to be clear, the past relationship that he unsuccessfully tried to leverage, what that refers to is the thinly veiled threats we've already discussed over the course of today's interview?
p. 93ARelative to the bridge player and the nuclear -- well, at the time, I mean, I wasn't sure what it referred to, but I had to assume there was some chance that the two affairs that Boris was aware of, that he had communicated that to Mr. Epstein.
p. 94QAnd just to clarify also, the beginning part of that statement, "Mr. Gates met with Epstein solely for philanthropic purposes." As we've discussed today, you also met with Mr. Epstein with regard to this dispute with this negotiation with Dr. Nikolic. Is that right?
p. 94AYeah. And there were dinners where the philanthropic thing would have come up but wouldn't have necessarily -- you know, when Jes Staley or Larry Summers was there, these U.N. people that I'm meeting for the first time, we would discuss other topics. So the primary topic of the times I spent with Mr. Epstein were my attempt to raise billions for global health, but the -- there were other things, including Dr. Nikolic's exit. You know, when he comes out in August, I doubt we discussed global health at that meeting. I think that was solely focused on this exit.
p. 94QAnd just to be clear, the statement says that you solely met with Mr. Epstein for philanthropic purposes, so that's not true then, right?
p. 94AI -- it's -- the correct summary would be to say that's the primary reason that I met with him, you know. So if a report is oversimplified, that's a mistake.
p. 94QAnd, again, you've said that you were not blackmailed, and I think maybe what you mean is you were not successfully blackmailed, but it seems to me like Mr. Epstein was trying really hard to blackmail you.
p. 94AIf those emails that contained some truth and some false things were ever sent, then we could say there was an attempt at blackmail. That never happened. You know, I don't know if Dr. Nikolic ever saw those, but I certainly never saw those. Those would have been -- then it would have been black and white that that's what they were attempting to do. What actually happened is they made veiled references that, because of that, you know, I explicitly raised the idea that their disclosing whatever they knew about me, that I would deal with that, and I was not going to raise the offer because of my concerns about what might be behind those veiled references.
p. 95QI think that that's correct when you look back at majority exhibit 1 and in the emails that are open discussions between Mr. Epstein and Dr. Nikolic about, you know, an email they might send you to, again, that they ultimately did not. It is more thinly veiled. It only references, as we discussed earlier, sensitive information and a dilemma and trust. It's these thinly veiled threats. Is that kind of what you're talking about, that sort of language?
p. 95AI think you're referring to an email that I'm not copied on.
p. 95QYou are not copied on the email, that's correct.
p. 95AYeah.
p. 95Mr. Moran.Is that the type of statement --
p. 95Mr. Gates.That is the type of statement that Epstein made.
p. 95Mr. Spectre.Okay. That is -- we will go off the record. [Recess.] BY MR. :
p. 95QGood afternoon, Mr. Gates.
p. 95AGood afternoon.
p. 95QWhen we left off during our last round together, we were proceeding through the chronology of your meetings with Mr. Epstein. I'd like to continue doing that, if I could. But first, just to step back in time to 2011, and this would be your first meeting with Mr. Epstein at his home in January of 2011. It was reported in Forbes magazine that after visiting Epstein for the first time, you told colleagues in an email the next day that Epstein's -- and I'm quoting from the article -- lifestyle is very different and kind of intriguing, although it would not work for me, unquote. Do you recall telling colleagues that after your initial visit?
p. 95AYeah. I sent an email to one person saying that.
p. 95QWho was that person?
p. 96ADr. Walker.
p. 96QAnd what did you mean by different and intriguing?
p. 96AWell, as you said, that was the first time I'd ever met Epstein, and during that dinner meeting, he referred to a lot of scientists and economists that he would spend time talking to. You know, I never followed up to see, you know, particularly given what I know about his credibility now, which of those were real and not real. But, you know, my first impression was that he took time being kind of a dilettante, a lot of different science and economic areas, and, you know, I picked particular areas to focus in, software while I was at Microsoft, and global health and education at the foundation. And so, yes, I made the remark that it was -- what I'd heard from him was intriguing but not for me.
p. 96QAppreciate that. And then stepping ahead in time, again, back to 2014. Just generally, do you have a recollection of the meetings that you had with Jeffrey Epstein during that year?
p. 96AI know the last two -- if we want to go through all of them, I should refresh my recollection.
p. 96QI think before you do that, I will show you another exhibit, and this will be exhibit F. This is yet another email setting forth Jeffrey Epstein's schedule from September 2014. It refers to some specific meetings I'd like to ask you about. [Gates Minority Exhibit F was marked for identification.] BY MR. :
p. 96QSo looking at the first entry at the top of the email from September 8th, 2014, there is a notation for a 10 a.m. meeting with you and Tom Pritzker at the Park Hyatt in New York. Do you recall that meeting?
p. 97AYes.
p. 97QOkay. What was the purpose of that meeting?
p. 97AWell, as we got into late 2013 and 2014 and Epstein was focusing on more of the structure of how these purported donations would be handled, I, particularly after fall of 2013, put a lot more pressure on him to identify specifically, you know, which Wall Street or Middle East or other billionaires did he really think were going to make these large donations because, you know, very few people give money to global health and I, you know, wanted to see was he stringing me out or was this legitimate. And in response to that, he said, oh, yeah, there's a bunch, let me set up some meetings with some of the people who may do this giving. And so this series of meetings on September 5th, this is the second to last time that I ever spend time with Epstein, but it's the first time that it's getting concrete that, hey, if this is going to happen, here are the people or some of the people. And he still referred to the Middle East and said, you know, they might be available later, but that didn't amount to anything. So we met with several people on September 5th in New York City.
p. 97QAnd I'll walk through each of these meetings set forth in this exhibit in more detail. But, overall, you know, the first entry, as I noted, refers to a meeting with Tom Pritzker. There's another referring to Leon Black, another to Larry Summers, another to Mort Zuckerman, and another with Kathy Ruemmler. What was your overall assessment at the conclusion of this series of meetings? Were you satisfied that the prospect of securing funding was becoming more concrete or did it still remain nebulous and inchoate in your mind?
p. 97AYeah. To be clear, I never saw Larry Summers on this day.
p. 97QSure. And I'll get to that one.
p. 97AOkay.
p. 97QBut, yeah, I appreciate the clarification.
p. 98ANo, unfortunately, although these were friendly meetings and, you know, I talked about Gavi and Global Fund and lots of things in global health where lives are being saved, you know, for less than $2,000 per life saved, it didn't appear any of these people -- the Kathy Ruemmler meeting is of a different nature, which we can talk about, but she was not a potential giver. The other men I met that day were presented as potential givers, and they were very polite, you know, praising the work I was doing in global health, but they clearly -- none of them was at a point where they were deciding to give large additional sums in general and not to global health. They were polite enough to say that, you know, maybe when they got around to doing their full giving plans, they might think about it, but it was a complete disappointment from my point of view, even though it was all very friendly.
p. 98QLooking at the second meeting reflected in this schedule, which is an 11:30 meeting at Leon Black's office, did that meeting take place?
p. 98AYes, it did.
p. 98QOkay. And had you previously met Mr. Black?
p. 98AI had not.
p. 98QDo you have an understanding as to Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with Leon Black?
p. 98ANo. To this day, I find that somewhat unclear.
p. 98QDid he make any representations to you in that regard?
p. 98AWell, Mr. Epstein came along for these meetings, and -- so, you know, Mr. Epstein didn't speak up much in these meetings because it was kind of a chance for me to poll the person about, hey, how are they thinking of philanthropy broadly and did -- you know, were they going to do something substantial and was global health a potential area to give to. And we met a few -- doesn't show it here, but we met a few other people in that office, the Apollo offices where that meeting took place.
p. 98QAnd do you recall who those people were?
p. 99AWe met with Josh Harris for a period. I think I got that name right.
p. 99QAnyone else?
p. 99ANo. I mean, there were people around, but the two specific meetings I remember were with Leon Black first and then Josh, a shorter meeting with him later.
p. 99QDid you ever become aware of Leon Black engaging in any sort of a sexual relationship with any women or girls connected to Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 99ANo.
p. 99QThe next meeting in exhibit F is a 12 p.m. meeting with Larry Summers. If I understood you correctly, that meeting did not happen?
p. 99AYeah. I don't know anything about that. I never heard his name in connection with the agenda for this day.
p. 99QAnd then the following entry refers to a 2 p.m. meeting with Mort Zuckerman. Did that meeting happen?
p. 99AYes.
p. 99QOkay. And according to this entry, it took place, if I'm reading it correctly, either at Mr. Gates' residence or at the Four Seasons. Do you recall the location?
p. 99AIt was not at Mr. Epstein's residence is my recollection. I think it was at the Four Seasons.
p. 99QAnd had you previously met Mr. Zuckerman?
p. 99AI had not.
p. 99QOkay. And do you recall the discussion at that meeting?
p. 99AIt was about his philanthropic thinking, and like the others, he was polite and praised the work I was doing without showing a near-term interest in giving substantial sums to global health.
p. 99QWas anyone else present at that meeting?
p. 100AI think Mr. Epstein sat in on that meeting.
p. 100QAnd finally, in this calendar entry, a 3 to 3:30 p.m. meeting with Kathy Ruemmler at the Four Seasons. I take it that meeting did take place?
p. 100AIt did.
p. 100QOkay. But you mentioned that that one was not focused on a prospective donation.
p. 100AThat's right.
p. 100QOkay. So what was the subject of that meeting?
p. 100AI'm not quite sure why he added her to the calendar this day. I gave him some discretion on that. I think that meeting, as I recall it, talked about politics and the Trump administration. I think it was more talking about what was going on politically. You know, he may have been working towards suggesting I involve her in some of my work in some way, but that never happened. Oh, sorry, I referred to -- it would have talked about political things, but this is during the Obama Presidency. So it certainly didn't refer to Trump, because I didn't anticipate his future Presidency.
p. 100QThank you. It's my understanding that your former wife had reservations about Jeffrey Epstein and your interaction with him. Is that accurate?
p. 100ADefinitely.
p. 100QDid it ever enter your mind or did you ever become aware of Jeffrey Epstein using or attempting to use Kathy Ruemmler to try and assuage those concerns?
p. 100AMy ex-wife Melinda I don't believe ever met with or talked to Kathy Ruemmler.
p. 100QNo further questions on this exhibit. Thank you. I will, finally, ask the court reporter to mark as exhibit G an email dated January 13th, 2019, from Jeffrey Epstein to you, Bates number EFTAR101795558. [Gates Minority Exhibit G was marked for identification.]
p. 101Mr. Gates.Which one is it? Mr. . It's this one.
p. 101Mr. Gates.Okay. BY MR. :
p. 101QMr. Gates, have you seen this email before?
p. 101AI don't think so, no. There came a time where I no longer looked at email from Mr. Epstein to me, and this is in 2019, and my last contact with him was in 2014.
p. 101QI'll just read the text of this brief email for the record. "Dec 3rd, 2013, comma, in Wash, D.C., meeting, equal sign, at airport. Larry said you have no recollection or at least he was not aware of your request and our conversations. Odd." Looking at this email today, do you have any understanding as to what meeting Mr. Epstein was referring to here?
p. 101AWell, I did -- let me look at the chronology to doublecheck this, but I do think I had a meeting with Epstein at the National Airport FBO on that date.
p. 101QAnd do you recall the subject of that meeting?
p. 101AThat would have been about the philanthropic work. I was in D.C. for other reasons. He was asking to meet with me. I was getting on a plane there, and there's a conference room there that we went in and had a fairly brief conversation.
p. 101QDo you understand the Larry referred to in the body of this email as Larry Cohen?
p. 101AOkay. I'm guessing, but, yes, the only thing that would make sense is that that would be Larry Cohen.
p. 101QDo you have a recollection of discussing with Mr. Cohen at or about this time your previous interactions with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 101AWell, as I've gone through the emails that came out in January, it looks like Epstein was trying to suggest that I had some connection to the payments he made with respect to the bridge player and seemed to be saying to Larry, not in this email, but I think in some prior thing that I saw, that I had requested him to make those payments, and that is completely false.
p. 102QAnd, again, looking at this email as you sit here today, do you understand this communication from Jeffrey Epstein to be part of that context, part of the general --
p. 102AIt could be. I'd be speculating, but it's consistent with that idea.
p. 102QAll right. Nothing further on this exhibit. Ms. . Mr. Gates, you have mentioned a couple times today photos that were taken of you and various Epstein assistants and associates. We have some of those photos that were produced to us by Epstein's estate, so we're going to show you some of those and ask you a few questions.
p. 102Mr. Gates.Okay. Ms. . I'll start by introducing minority exhibits H and I. [Gates Minority Exhibits H and I were marked for identification.] BY MS. :
p. 102QMr. Gates, I believe these are both photos of you and a woman named . Is that correct?
p. 102AI have no idea what her name is.
p. 102QYou were never introduced to her?
p. 102AI was not.
p. 102QBut you met her on presumably both of these occasions and others. You were introduced by Epstein. Is that correct?
p. 102ANo. I never met her.
p. 102QBut you -- but you're standing next to her.
p. 103AThat is correct.
p. 103QSo it was just for the photo?
p. 103AAt the end of the meeting that -- I don't know if this is the same woman -- and there's both redacted and unredacted versions of this photo. This one I can say is at the National Airport FBO on -- after the December 3rd meeting that I just discussed with your colleague, that at the end of that meeting, she was with Epstein, and as I walked out down this hallway, you can see it says "signature" there, he asked that I take a photo with her, and he took a photo. Mr. . And, Mr. Gates, for the record, you're describing exhibit H. Ms. . Yes.
p. 103Mr. Gates.It says H. BY MS. :
p. 103QSo could you just remind us what year this was.
p. 103AThat was 2013, December 3rd, 2013.
p. 103QTo your recollection, was this the first time you ever encountered her?
p. 103AI have no idea, but I never spent any meaningful time. I don't recognize her. I was never introduced to her.
p. 103QUnderstood. And then looking at exhibit I, it's another photo of -- I will represent it's the same woman. Where was this photo taken?
p. 103ACan we look at the chronology? We believe this was taken at the end of a meeting on February 27th, 2013, after a meeting at the Four Seasons.
p. 103QWas there anyone else there?
p. 103AOh, yeah. There's Epstein and other people, Dr. Nikolic.
p. 103QThe other people that were attending that meeting.
p. 103AShe was not in the meeting, but at the end of the meeting, this is another case where he asked me to take a photo with one of his assistants, which I did.
p. 104QEpstein asked you to?
p. 104AYes.
p. 104QDid he take the photo?
p. 104AI think so, yes.
p. 104QUnderstood. And your understanding of their relationship was that she was his administrative assistant. Is that correct?
p. 104AI knew she came with him and didn't sit in the meeting, and so I made that guess, but I was never told what her connection to Epstein was.
p. 104QUnderstood. And did you ever become aware of Epstein sexually abusing this woman?
p. 104ANo.
p. 104QThank you. I am now going to introduce minority exhibit J. [Gates Minority Exhibit J was marked for identification.] BY MS. :
p. 104QThis is a photo of you and a group of individuals. Could you please identify who these people are?
p. 104AI recognize myself. I don't recognize anyone else in this photo. What do you know about when this was taken?
p. 104QI was actually planning to ask you that. We don't have dates with these photos, so --
p. 104ABut do you know who these people are?
p. 104QI'm asking you. We are aware that this is the same woman as the previous photos, , but we were hoping that you would identify the other individuals in this photo. Mr. . Indicating the first woman from the right-hand side of this photo.
p. 104Mr. Gates.Where is this taken? BY MS. :
p. 105QThat is the question that we have for you. We don't have any context when we get these photos. There's no date with them and we aren't aware of where this is being taken. So we were hoping that you could provide some context for us.
p. 105AI don't recall this photo being taken. I mean, there's kind of distinct stuff in the background. I would assume that if somebody was serious about this, they could figure out where this was taken.
p. 105QYou have no recollection of being in this room or with these individuals?
p. 105ANo.
p. 105QUnderstood. I will now introduce minority exhibit K. [Gates Minority Exhibit K was marked for identification.]
p. 105Mr. Moran.Sorry. This has been marked K? Ms. K, yes.
p. 105Mr. Moran.Thank you. Ms. . Mr. Gates, could you please identify the individuals in this photo?
p. 105Mr. Gates.It's interesting, all of these are unredacted. On the left is -- I think that's Terje Rod-Larsen. There's a small chance it's Jagland, but that's a Norwegian. Then there's me, then there's one of Epstein's admin assistants, then there's Epstein himself. And we can identify the date -- this is taken, I believe, somewhere in Epstein's New York residence, and this is when after a dinner, David Blaine came over and was doing several magic tricks, and one or two admins stayed while he did those tricks. I was not introduced, so I don't know the name. Mr. And, Mr. Gates, just for the record, when you're identifying these individuals, you're moving from left to right across exhibit K.
p. 105Mr. Gates.That's right. And we think this is after Feb- -- after a dinner February 27, 2013, at Epstein's New York residence. BY MS. :
p. 106QOkay. That makes sense. The only other question I have for you on this photo is you said the admin assistants stayed. They weren't at the dinner and then they came after. Is that correct?
p. 106AThey may have been in another room in the residence. They were not at the dinner.
p. 106QAnd then they came for when Mr. Blaine came.
p. 106AWell, we went to a different room for the magic trick. That may have been where they had been the whole time. I don't know where they were during the dinner.
p. 106QUnderstood. And this first woman holding the card, I'll represent that that is also who was in the three previous photos. Are you aware of who the other woman is?
p. 106ANo.
p. 106QYou weren't introduced to either of them?
p. 106AI was not.
p. 106QOkay. Finally, I will introduce minority exhibit L. [Gates Minority Exhibit L was marked for identification.] BY MS. :
p. 106QCould you please identify the individuals in this photo for me?
p. 106AYeah. So the person on the left is me. The person in the middle is Eva Dubin. The person on the right is some friend of Eva Dubin's who I was introduced to, but I don't remember her name.
p. 106QOkay. I will represent that that is Karyna Shuliak. That was Epstein's girlfriend at the time. Was this the occasion that you mentioned earlier when Ms. Dubin came to meet you after a meeting?
p. 107AYes. This is -- we believe this is in August 20? Is that right? August 20, 2011 -- 2012, sorry.
p. 107QThis is at the Four Seasons. Is that correct?
p. 107AYes, I believe so.
p. 107QAnd was this --
p. 107AAfter a meeting that they did not attend.
p. 107QWas the meeting just and you Mr. Epstein?
p. 107ANo. I think Dr. Nikolic was there.
p. 107QWas this the only time that you met Ms. Dubin?
p. 107ANo. Ms. Dubin, you know, she and her husband Glenn are a member of The Giving Pledge. You know, they have a property in North Salem that's near to where my daughter has a property. I've met Eva Dubin at events several times, including, I already mentioned, she came by after the January 31, 2011, the first dinner I had with Mr. Epstein.
p. 107QWere those the two occasions that you were with Ms. Dubin and Mr. Epstein together?
p. 107AThat's right.
p. 107QOkay.
p. 107AThat was the only times that I saw her in his presence.
p. 107QOkay. And did you ever meet this other woman, Ms. Shuliak, ever again? Was this the only time?
p. 107AI don't believe so.
p. 107QOkay. That's all. Mr. . We're going to have some members ask some questions, but before we do, the members who have just entered the room for the first time, can you please identify yourselves for the record?
p. 108Mr. Walkinshaw.James Walkinshaw, Virginia's 11th District.
p. 108Mr. Frost.Maxwell Frost, Florida's 10.
p. 108Mr. Bell.Wesley Bell, Missouri.
p. 108Mr. Walkinshaw.Mr. Gates, thank you for being here. And I just want to start by thanking you for your philanthropic work and your work on global health which has saved countless lives. I want to go back. I know there's been some conversation about Melanie Walker. And earlier I know exhibit A was introduced, the article published in The Wall Street Journal on June 7th titled, "The Hidden Figure With Close Ties to Bill Gates and Jeffrey Epstein." And on the bottom of page 4 of that article it reads, Walker has told several people she met Epstein and Trump at the Plaza Hotel in the early 199- -- got it? Okay.
p. 108Mr. Gates.Yep.
p. 108Mr. Walkinshaw.-- in the early 1990s after graduating with honors from the University of Texas. In a 2018 email introducing a neurosurgeon to Epstein, she wrote, I've known Jeffrey 28 years, and this isn't a joke, Donald Trump introduced us. Did Ms. Walker ever discuss with you her connection to Donald Trump?
p. 108Mr. Gates.No.
p. 108Mr. Walkinshaw.So did you have any awareness that Epstein and Ms. Walker were introduced to each other by Donald Trump? Had you ever heard that before you saw this article?
p. 108Mr. Gates.I have not.
p. 108Mr. Walkinshaw.Okay. The article also references that Ms. Walker had in her possession potentially embarrassing blue dress emails. On page 9, it describes a back-and-forth between Walker and Epstein apparently, I think, referring to you in September of 2017. The article reads, again on page 9, Walker provided an inventory of her ammunition. Yes, I have blue dress emails and a few other embarrassing things, and, yes, the stories are so eerily similar to all in media that he sounds Weinstein-like. I can't be the only one. Mr. Gates, do you know what these blue dress emails that Ms. Walker is referring to? Do you have any sense of what that is, what they are?
p. 109Mr. Gates.I think I said earlier the blue dress could be a reference to the Monica Lewinsky affair, but I don't know what a blue dress email would be.
p. 109Mr. Walkinshaw.Okay. And in your opinion, why do you think Ms. Walker would have shared, potentially, these emails, if they exist, with Mr. Epstein?
p. 109Mr. Gates.You know, I don't have an explanation for -- that she was in touch with him and saying what she said. I, you know, had a cordial, friendly relationship with Dr. Walker both before and after the time of any of these communications.
p. 109Mr. Walkinshaw.Okay. Any sense that it may have been part of this Epstein effort to generate leverage or potentially blackmail you perhaps?
p. 109Mr. Gates.It's possible that Epstein encouraged Dr. Walker to send these emails to him as part of some possible future either blackmail or attempt to reestablish a relationship with me. Remember, this is over 3 years after I completely cut off the relationship, and, you know, it would be consistent with sort of the strange way he was willing to use some truthful things and some lies to try to develop pressure. But I was never made aware of these exchanges and I was not in contact with Epstein in any way, and all of my conversations with Dr. Walker were friendly in nature towards each other. You know, she'd left the foundation, but I continued to talk to her through 2020.
p. 109Mr. Walkinshaw.Based on what you know now, having maybe reviewed what's in the files -- or some of what's in the files and the reporting around, you know, Epstein's effort perhaps to use the payments he made to gain some leverage over you to achieve the goal perhaps he wanted to achieve, how would you describe -- in your opinion, was he working towards an attempt to blackmail you based on the evidence that we have and what you know and your own knowledge of him and how he operated? Would you use that term?
p. 110Mr. Gates.No, he never sent me anything that I would call blackmail. As I've said, he made veiled references to things like we should all want to be friends. Now that I see the January release of documents, it appears that in many cases he, at least in emails to himself, was sort of rehearsing how either he or he coaching someone else might choose to blackmail me, but none of those messages were ever sent to me. You know, I never paid Jeffrey Epstein anything. And so it's a bit speculation, but the different things are quite consistent that he would encourage others to try and give him leverage over me, but then that never came to pass.
p. 110Mr. Walkinshaw.Okay. Because one of the things that I'm wrestling with, and it's not a question for you, but in July of 2025, the Department of Justice issued an unsigned memo in which they said there was no evidence of Epstein blackmailing anyone. And certainly true, based on what we know, he wasn't able to blackmail you, but I think what we have from the files and the reporting seems to suggest he was working towards that or hoping to work towards that.
p. 110Mr. Gates.He never blackmailed me, but looking at these emails, it raises a serious probability that he contemplated blackmailing me.
p. 110Mr. Walkinshaw.Yeah. Thank you. That's all I have.
p. 110Mr. Frost.Thank you. Mr. Gates, why did you choose Jeffrey Epstein specifically to help you with your philanthropy?
p. 110Mr. Gates.I didn't really choose him. He's the only one who ever came to me and said that he could raise billions or tens of billions of dollars for global health, and that was credible to me, because as I approach people directly about their giving, generally, you know, they're not in the position where they think through retirement, you know, who's going to do giving, what they want to give to their children. And the key time when people think that through is when they're doing their will, you know, how much goes to the children. And then for people who are very rich, hopefully they think of a large sum being available for philanthropy. And it was because of his purported relationship with billionaires or he was part of that tax and will discussion that it seemed credible to me that he might be able to raise or be a referral to help raise billions of dollars for global health.
p. 111Mr. Frost.So when you say he came to you, did he come to you directly or did he connect with you through somebody else?
p. 111Mr. Gates.I met him after Dr. Nikolic was -- had met with him. And so I meet him on January 31st, 2011, and then I have a series of meetings with him through 2014.
p. 111Mr. Frost.Michael Wolff alleges that Jeffrey Epstein advised you on expansion and restructuring of the Gates Foundation. Did Epstein advise you on the Gates Foundation?
p. 111Mr. Gates.Never.
p. 111Mr. Frost.There's a Forbes article published on April 8th, 2026, that's titled, quote, "What We Know About Bill Gates' Connection To Jeffrey Epstein -- As Billionaire Prepares To Testify," end quote. And it states, quote, Wolff alleged Epstein had been advising Gates on a vast expansion and restructuring of the Gates Foundation with Epstein proposing a way to leverage the Gates Foundation's resources to accommodate many other fortunes from other billionaires. So are you saying the article's false?
p. 111Mr. Gates.Completely false. Epstein never ever mentioned to me the organization of the Gates Foundation. It's not something he would have had knowledge of, so it wouldn't have made any sense.
p. 111Mr. Frost.Between 2013 and 2019, the Gates Foundation was provided $8 million in grants to the International Peace Institute. Was Epstein involved with these funds at all?
p. 111Mr. Gates.The only connection between Epstein and that grantee, who did very important work for us in our polio eradication campaign, was that when I was in Strasbourg and Epstein was there at the same time, on that day, the chairman of IPI made a presentation to me. We can pull up what that day is. And it was subsequent to that that the polio team investigated whether IPI could provide valuable help -- yeah, Strasbourg is March 27, 2013. And the foundation developed a relationship working with IPI that extended until -- I think it's ongoing, as far as I know. And that work has been helpful. But other than that one time, I wasn't aware of Epstein having any connection. Now that we see the emails that have come out, Epstein was exchanging email with the chairman of IPI on a number of occasions, but I was not aware of any connection to Epstein other than that first introduction.
p. 112Mr. Frost.Vanity Fair reported that IPI staff included Epstein on updates about its work with the Gates Foundation, including intelligence about Pakistani Taliban, polio outbreaks, and the existence of chemical weapons in Syria. Why was Epstein privy to that information?
p. 112Mr. Gates.Really doesn't make any sense to me, but the chairman of IPI, Terje Rod-Larsen, forwarded a number of emails to Epstein. I only know that now because we see that in the January release of emails. And, you know, the -- doing polio eradication in Pakistan and Afghanistan is very complex. IPI had some very good people who helped us there, but Epstein would have had no expertise in that, so I don't understand why the chairman of IPI forwarded those emails. [2:50 p.m.]
p. 113Mr. Frost.Thank you.
p. 113Mr. Bell.Good evening, Mr. Gates. Wesley Bell, Missouri's 1st District. I'm going to introduce what has been labeled as minority exhibit M, which is a photo of you, Mr. Epstein, Boris Nikolic, Jes Staley, and Larry Summers. Is that correct?
p. 113Mr. Gates.Yes.
p. 113Mr. Bell.And when was this photo taken?
p. 113Mr. Gates.Yeah, I can give you the date. There it is. No, no, you just went by it.
p. 113Mr. Moran.No, this is a different one.
p. 113Mr. Gates.This is a different one?
p. 113Mr. Moran.Than the one that we just -- than what you just one --
p. 113Mr. Gates.Okay. But it's on the same night. I mean, there's only one night that these five people are in the same location, so if you'd just tell me that date.
p. 113Mr. Moran.May 2nd, 2011.
p. 113Mr. Gates.This is a dinner at Epstein's New York residence on May 2nd, 2011.
p. 113Mr. Bell.I would like to go piecemeal. So this was May 2nd, and what year?
p. 113Mr. Gates.2011.
p. 113Mr. Bell.2011? And where was this photo taken?
p. 113Mr. Gates.This was at Epstein's New York residence.
p. 113Mr. Bell.And this was a gathering of some sort?
p. 113Mr. Gates.There was a dinner that all five, and only the five people you see here, had dinner together. And I believe this was after the dinner.
p. 113Mr. Bell.And what was the purpose of the dinner?
p. 113Mr. Gates.Yeah, this is the second time that I meet Epstein, and I'm in New York for other things, and we had a dinner. I would say the discussion was pretty broad-ranging with Dr. Summers talking about the economy and a variety of things, Jes Staley talking about his -- a few of the economy things going on, and in all of these meetings, I would have brought up the Foundation work I was doing.
p. 114Mr. Bell.Okay. But the meeting, the dinner, the purpose of it, what was the original purpose of the meeting?
p. 114Mr. Gates.You know, this is the second time I meet Epstein, so this idea of going after donors, that really doesn't -- it may have been mentioned casually, but it's not until 2013 that there's any real engagement on that, so it may have come up. You know, I, at the time, thought having a chance to listen to Dr. Summers and Mr. Staley would be educational to me, and I was there for other reasons, and this fit into my schedule, so this was the second time that I saw Mr. Epstein. I saw him one more time that year where he dropped by my office and that, you know, that's the three meetings in 2011. And then a year goes by, and in the fall of 2012, there's two meetings. And then you have to get out into 2013 before there's any additional meetings.
p. 114Mr. Bell.And just to be clear, other than the economy, or economic discussions, what else was discussed?
p. 114Mr. Gates.You know, news of the day, where the Foundation was succeeding, what was challenging for the Foundation. Dr. Summers, you know, worked at the World Bank and had been part of a book that was very influential to me called the World Development Report in 1993, which went through why children under five die and broke it down, and that piece of work that he was the head of the project doing that, had a substantial impact on me. And I remember bringing up to him that that influenced my decision to devote philanthropic resources to saving children's lives.
p. 114Mr. Bell.So at that time you did know Jes Staley?
p. 114Mr. Gates.No, this is the first time and the last time I ever met Jes Staley. I knew of Jes Staley as a very senior J.P. Morgan officer.
p. 115Mr. Bell.Did you know Larry Summers?
p. 115Mr. Gates.I knew a lot about Larry Summers. I'm trying to think if I had met him in person before this dinner. I had never had a dinner with Larry Summers. I may have met him, but this was my first extended conversation with him.
p. 115Mr. Bell.And Mr. Gates, who else was at this gathering?
p. 115Mr. Gates.Dr. Nikolic and Mr. Epstein.
p. 115Mr. Bell.Just the people in this photo?
p. 115Mr. Gates.Yeah, the dinner was with exactly the five people you see in this photo. Apparently, there's multiple versions of this photo, but --
p. 115Mr. Bell.So who took the photo?
p. 115Mr. Gates.Good question. It's clearly not a selfie.
p. 115Mr. Moran.You don't remember?
p. 115Mr. Gates.I don't remember. Maybe the cook, maybe an assistant. I'm not sure.
p. 115Mr. Bell.And then last question, were there any young women present on that occasion?
p. 115Mr. Gates.None.
p. 115Mr. Bell.I yield back.
p. 115Mr. Subramanyam.Thank you, again, for being here. I haven't been here the whole time, so -- today is a busy day, so I apologize if any of the questions I ask you have already been asked, but I will do my best. But I think earlier -- so you've been mentioning that the purpose of knowing Mr. Epstein was he would introduce you to folks who could contribute to the Gates Foundation, and I was just wondering if you could kind of rattle off some of the people he introduced you to? I think I heard Leon Black and Josh Harris and Mort Zuckerman, maybe Tom Pritzker. Is there anyone else he introduced you to for the purpose of supporting the Gates Foundation?
p. 115Mr. Gates.Well, two things: First, the contributions to Global Health would not have come to the Gates Foundation.
p. 116Mr. Subramanyam.I see.
p. 116Mr. Gates.They would have gone to things like the Global Alliance for Vaccines, or the Global Fund, the other endeavors to help Global Health, but not to the Gates Foundation.
p. 116Mr. Subramanyam.Thank you.
p. 116Mr. Gates.Secondly, Epstein was pretty vague about specific names for a long time, and that was frustrating to me. And particularly after dinner in fall of 2013 that my ex-wife Melinda came to, she had a very negative reaction to Mr. Epstein and was saying, Look, you know, either get these donations, you know, maybe you should just cut it off now, showing better judgment than I showed, or, you know, make this concrete, and I chose to continue in pursuing it. But then I was very hardcore, Jeffrey, okay, who are these people? Let's meet with them. And there's a lot of delay, but eventually that results in the September 2014 meeting -- is it September -- 2014 meeting where finally for the first time, this is Epstein showing who he thinks might do this, you know, different from his broad illusions to lots of Wall Street billionaires, lots of Middle East billionaires, you know, he had me meet with people who, as I said, were friendly, but didn't fit, that as they were not, in any near term, going to give substantial resources to Global Health activities.
p. 116Mr. Subramanyam.I apologize. Who are those people again?
p. 116Mr. Gates.The people I met that day were Leon Black. I don't know if we were scheduled to see Josh Harris, or if he was just in the office there and that was impromptu, but we saw him, Mark Zuckerberg, Tom Pritzker, and that's all.
p. 116Mr. Subramanyam.Did he ever bring up Les Wexner?
p. 116Mr. Gates.Ever bring up?
p. 116Mr. Subramanyam.Les Wexner as someone who would --
p. 116Mr. Gates.No, that name never came up.
p. 116Mr. Subramanyam.Okay. And there was one name, one email, and I apologize, I don't have copies of it, I can even give it to you, but there's an email on September 16th, 2013, saying, Did JE want to meet to follow up with, and then redacted, and see if her, redacted, would like to come join JE's meeting with Barak slash Bill Gates. I don't know if this email --
p. 117Mr. Gates.I should take a look at that.
p. 117Mr. Subramanyam.Yes. I'll give you a copy.
p. 117Mr. Gates.I don't remember it.
p. 117Mr. Subramanyam.You weren't on the email, I believe. But I guess I want to know who Barak is because Barak seems to -- there are a lot of Baraks. It could be Ehud Barak. It could be Barack Obama.
p. 117Mr. Gates.Yeah, I never met any Baraks in connection with Epstein. There were no Baraks whose names were mentioned, or that I met with.
p. 117Mr. Subramanyam.Okay. Thank you. And did he, Epstein, ever have you sign an NDA at any point, or have anyone sign an NDA?
p. 117Mr. Gates.No, I never signed anything in connection with Epstein.
p. 117Mr. Subramanyam.And did you have him sign an NDA, or anyone else sign an NDA at any point?
p. 117Mr. Gates.Not Mr. Epstein. I think I mentioned earlier that it may be that when somebody comes into either Gates Ventures employ, or the Foundation they do, but I'm not familiar with what the specific practices are.
p. 117Mr. Subramanyam.And then did you do any sort of background check on him?
p. 117Mr. Gates.On whom?
p. 117Mr. Subramanyam.On Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 117Mr. Gates.I wish I had done more, but I did enough to know -- did do enough to know that he had been criminally convicted in 2008, or 2009, of a sexually-related offense.
p. 117Mr. Subramanyam.And since the experience with him, do you do more thorough background checks now?
p. 118Mr. Gates.Absolutely.
p. 118Mr. Subramanyam.Okay. Thank you. That's all I have.
p. 118Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Thank you, Mr. Gates. I'm Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi from Illinois. Did Jeffrey Epstein ever reference a foreign intelligence agency to you?
p. 118Mr. Gates.He did not.
p. 118Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Did you ever have any evidence, or see any evidence that he might have been a foreign asset?
p. 118Mr. Gates.I did not.
p. 118Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Did he ever make any threats to you about revealing any particular piece of information about you or your family or your background?
p. 118Mr. Gates.Well, I viewed the attempt to have me reimburse him for the things he purportedly paid for for the bridge player, I viewed that as taking a step beyond the veiled comments he made during Dr. Nikolic's exit. You know, at that point, although it's kind of trivial sum of money, I thought that, you know, was moving further down the line into being threatening, although, you know, the way he phrased it was this is just a reimbursement for something I did, even going so far as to pretend that I had somehow encouraged him to do so, which is completely false.
p. 118Mr. Krishnamoorthi.And how much money was that, again, that he asked you to pay back?
p. 118Mr. Gates.I won't remember the amounts, but it's, you know, thousands of dollars, not tens of thousands of dollars.
p. 118Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Okay. Besides that, did he ever ask you for any other money?
p. 118Mr. Gates.No. I never paid him. I made it clear he would not be paid, and never paid him.
p. 118Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Okay. In your discussions with any other world leaders, or any other dignitaries, has anybody else referenced Jeffrey Epstein in the context of him having made any threats to them, or comments to the effect that he may be an intelligence asset?
p. 119Mr. Gates.No mention of Jeffrey Epstein has ever come up in any discussion with the World leaders that I've ever had.
p. 119Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Forbes -- I'm sorry. Wall Street Journal reported that Warren Buffett stopped giving to the Gates Foundation, in part because of the Epstein situation. And in March of this year, he told CNBC that he's going to make his decision in June of this year, so this month, as to whether he's going to give more to the Gates Foundation based on what else he sees with the Epstein files. What did he tell you gives him cause for concern with regard to your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 119Mr. Gates.The last time I talked to Warren directly was in January, where we didn't talk about this. I think it was prior to the release of the Epstein files. We talked about my health challenges and some other things. I'm sure, you know, he's looking at the press. I don't think he has any knowledge other than what he's reading in the press.
p. 119Mr. Krishnamoorthi.In an interview with Emily Kirkpatrick, your ex-wife, Melinda, said that when she first met Jeffrey Epstein -- I'm sorry. This is an interview with Gayle King of CBS this morning, she said, I regretted meeting Jeffrey Epstein the second I walked in the door. He was abhorrent. He was evil personified. What does she say to you about that first meeting that led her to believe that he was evil personified?
p. 119Mr. Gates.Yeah, so I believe her only meeting with Mr. Epstein was the dinner that I described that she came to, and she definitely had a very negative impression of him.
p. 119Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Why?
p. 119Mr. Gates.Her instinct about arrogant men, or I'm not sure what, but she certainly showed better judgment than I did.
p. 119Mr. Krishnamoorthi.We have in our notes that you met with Jeffrey Epstein 10 times. At least 10 times. What is the number that you -- what is the number of times that you believe that you met with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 120Mr. Gates.You know, I think it depends on whether you count Skype calls, or the one time he dropped by my office. You know, there was a dinner, a TED dinner that we both attended, but I didn't talk to him then. You know, I think it's like 12 to 14 times, plus two Skype calls in total over the 4-year period.
p. 120Mr. Krishnamoorthi.Okay. Thank you very much.
p. 120Ms. Randall.Thank you, Mr. Gates. I'm Emily Randall from Washington's 6th. I appreciate you being here and answering our questions. And I want to follow up a little bit on a question that Ranking Member Garcia asked to begin with about who the men were in Mr. Epstein's orbit that you may have seen or engaged with in any of these meetings. And you said, you know, that you didn't see anyone engaging in illegal or illicit activities, and you didn't want to cast aspersions of any of these men, which I understand. But I think some of what we've seen in our investigative work and in conversations and in the files is that, you know, it became very easy for a lot of people to say that they didn't see anything, and that's part of how he continued to have such a long history of abuse. And so, I just would like to ask if there are other names of people that you haven't mentioned yet. You mentioned Dr. Nikolic, Larry Summers, Jes Staley, Leon Black, Josh Harris, Mark Zuckerberg, Tom Pritzker. Were there other men that were involved, maybe not necessarily men that he was trying to introduce into the Global Healthwork, but folks in any of these meetings that we should ask follow-up questions on, not saying that you're accusing them of anything, but to make sure that we're uncovering every stone in this work to find transparency and justice?
p. 120Mr. Gates.Yeah, I believe that today I mentioned the name of every single individual who was in a meeting with myself and Epstein. And, you know, beyond that, you know, all these emails released in January have other names in there, I don't bring any personal knowledge to that. But, you know, I'm here to help in any way I can. I can't think of anyone whose name I haven't mentioned that I knew had some relationship with Mr. Epstein.
p. 121Ms. Randall.Thank you. And, you know, Ms. Stansbury asked about the women, young women who worked for Mr. Epstein, and we've all established that some of these women who were employed by him were also being trafficked and abused, whether, you know, though that may not have been your knowledge at the time, I understand. I do want to ask, because of my conversations with some survivors who were underage when they were pulled into Mr. Epstein's world, they have relayed to us that no one ever, Mr. Epstein knew how old they were, but, you know, no one in the room at parties, at events, at meetings ever asked how old they were. They assumed they were adults because they looked like adults. A 17-year-old young women, you know, is not always spottable as a 17-year-old young woman. Just thinking about any women who were in any of these meetings, who were working at Mr. Epstein's home, who were engaged in any coordination, can you think of, you know, any young women who we should talk to?
p. 121Mr. Gates.No. The only thing I did with Epstein that was of a casual entertainment nature was when he had David Blaine come over after we had had a dinner meeting. And as I've said, and you've seen in photographs, there were two of the women around Epstein who were standing around during the David Blaine performance. But, you know, you've heard from me everything I know about the women around Epstein. And I'm very sorry to hear some of them were victims.
p. 121Ms. Randall.Thank you so much for your answers, and for joining us, Mr. Gates. BY MR.
p. 121QMr. Gates, did you ever meet Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 121AI met her one time. I was at a hotel restaurant, and she and Ted Waitt were there, and that was the one time I was introduced to her.
p. 121QWhen was that?
p. 121AIt's a good question. She clearly had left her time with Epstein and was with Ted Waitt. Ted Waitt is someone I knew fairly well because he created a company called Gateway that was in the personal computer business. But, you know, it was just a few-minute introduction because we happened to be in the same place. But other than that, I've never met her.
p. 122QAnd that was simply an introduction rather than a substantive conversation?
p. 122ANot a substantive conversation, no.
p. 122QAnd was this during the period of your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, or after?
p. 122ANo, I think it was after, but we would have to dig out the date.
p. 122QAnd did Ms. Maxwell ever come up in conversation with Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 122ANever.
p. 122QDid she ever come up in conversation with Melanie Walker?
p. 122ANever.
p. 122QOkay. BY MR. :
p. 122QMr. Gates, a few minutes ago, in response to Mr. Krishnamoorthi's questions you mentioned there were two Skype calls. Is that right?
p. 122ATwo?
p. 122QSkype calls.
p. 122ARight.
p. 122QAnd I think we discussed one earlier which occurred on February 27th, 2014. Is that right?
p. 122AWell, we inadvertently discussed it.
p. 122QSure.
p. 122ABecause there was a question about a February 27th, 2013 thing, and I accidentally saw February 27th and said, oh, that meeting was a Skype call. The February 27th, 2013 meeting is an in-person meeting in New York, and the February 27th, 2013 meeting is a Skype call.
p. 123QUnderstood. And when was the second Skype call?
p. 123AThe second Skype call is May 21st, 2014.
p. 123QAnd what was the purpose of that call?
p. 123AYou know, everything in this time frame is focusing on who are these donors? Is this thing going to be real? And so right after that second Skype call is when he suggests the names of people that we end up meeting in September, which is the second to last meeting I had with Epstein.
p. 123QAnd do you recall the exact discussions of that call with Mr. Epstein?
p. 123AI do not.
p. 123QWas anyone else on that call?
p. 123ALarry Cohen may have come for some part of that call. [Discussion off the record.]
p. 123Mr. Gates.Yeah, my notes show Larry as being on the first of the two Skype calls, but not on the second Skype call. BY MR. :
p. 123QNot on the second one. And I have in my notes, and I could have this incorrect, but I believe you testified earlier that it was -- the first Skype call was just you and Mr. Epstein. That is not true?
p. 123ANo. The first Skype call, Larry Cohen is part of that.
p. 123QUnderstood. And who was on the second Skype call?
p. 123AIt looks like just myself and Epstein.
p. 123QJust you and Epstein. Okay. Why was this conducted over Skype?
p. 123ABecause we weren't in the same physical location.
p. 123QWhy the Skype platform?
p. 123AMicrosoft owns Skype.
p. 123QDid you suggest Skype?
p. 124AI mean, I'm capable of using probably seven different video calling platforms. I don't think there's any unique features of Skype that caused it to be used. You know, subsequently I've shifted 90 percent of my use to Teams, and perhaps 10 percent to Zoom. So this may have indeed, the second meeting may have been my final Skype call.
p. 124QUnderstood. And I guess the reason I'm asking is because Jeffrey Epstein does have a demonstrated history of using Skype, and so my question to you is, did he recommend that this meeting be conducted on Skype?
p. 124AI don't know.
p. 124QOkay. Mr. . We can go off the record.
p. 124QWe can go back on the record. Mr. Gates, we've briefly discussed your relationship -- or your one interaction that you recall with Ghislaine Maxwell during the last hour. Just to be clear, that's the only interaction with her that you recall?
p. 124AThe only time I've ever met her, yes.
p. 124QShe did tell the Department of Justice in the interview that she did with them last summer that she met you, it sounds like briefly, at a TED conference. Do you have any recollection of that?
p. 124AYeah, there was a TED dinner with about 40 or 50 people, and she was an attendee there. I don't know if I shook her hand, but I didn't have a conversation with her.
p. 124QBut you recall that she was there in general?
p. 124AI think she attended a dinner around the TED conference. Yes.
p. 124QDo you recall any other, I'll call them interactions, but any other times you were in the same place as Ghislaine Maxwell other than the meeting with Ted Waitt, the brief meeting with Ted Waitt, and this very brief meeting at a dinner at a TED conference?
p. 125AAs I say, on the TED thing, I don't know that I shook her hand. I'm not sure. But I didn't have a conversation with her. Other than those two times, no, I never met her.
p. 125QMr. Gates, we're at a point in our questioning where unfortunately I do have to make you repeat yourself just to make sure the record is crystal clear. During the first hour, I believe you had mentioned that at some point you were invited to visit Mr. Epstein's island. Is that right?
p. 125AYes, several times he issued an invitation.
p. 125QAnd approximately when were you extended those invites?
p. 125AWe can go dig through the emails. I don't know the timing.
p. 125QAnd he himself directly invited you. Is that right?
p. 125AThat's right.
p. 125QAnd you rejected those invites?
p. 125AThat's correct.
p. 125QRight? And as far as his other properties go, you've testified numerous times to have had dinners at his Manhattan townhouse. Is that right?
p. 125AThat's right.
p. 125QHave you ever visited his Paris apartment?
p. 125AYeah, I talked about the one meeting I had there.
p. 125QWhat about Zorro Ranch in New Mexico?
p. 125ANever went there.
p. 125QThe Palm Beach home?
p. 125ANever went there.
p. 125QAny other properties owned by Mr. Epstein?
p. 125ANo. It was, as you said, several meetings at his New York residence, and the one meeting in Paris, and then the one time we flew together on a plane from New York to Palm Beach.
p. 126QSo let's talk briefly about the Manhattan townhome. Did you notice anything unusual during your visits there?
p. 126AWell, I never went above the first floor. You know, there's kind of a fancy door, and then you go up some stairs, and to the left is the room where we had dinners and most of the meetings, and then to the right is a large area I think he called his office area, and then there's a bathroom on that floor. That's what I remember about his residence.
p. 126QAnd there's been allegations that Epstein had cameras that he would use to blackmail visitors. Did you notice any cameras when you visited those --
p. 126AI did not.
p. 126QDuring the committee's review of documents produced by the estate, as well as photos that had been released as part of the Epstein Files Transparency Act, this is my own characterization, but it seems that Mr. Epstein had an unusual creepy taste in artwork. Did you notice any unusual or weird artwork when you visited his town home?
p. 126AI know there was one thing he had that was a bit strange. Was it liking Bill Clinton in a dress? There was one thing that it was like Bill Clinton in a dress, I think, which I think that fits your description.
p. 126QDid you ask him about that specific portrait?
p. 126AI did not.
p. 126QAnd to be clear, did you notice any nude photos displayed at his property?
p. 126ANo. I mean, the only two properties I ever saw were the New York and the Paris one, and I did not see nude photos in either location.
p. 126QAnd back to the photo of Bill Clinton, where was that?
p. 126AI don't think it was a photo, honestly.
p. 126QOr the painting. Excuse me.
p. 126AYeah, the artwork. That was on the wall in his office.
p. 127QNow, you mentioned that you visited the property in Paris as well. Did you notice anything unusual when you visited that property?
p. 127AI did not.
p. 127QA couple weeks ago the committee interviewed Sarah Kellen, a survivor, and she had mentioned that Mr. Epstein had a painting or a photo or a naked photo of her displayed at that property. You did not see any photo of Ms. Kellen. Is that right?
p. 127ANo. You know, I don't know the extent of that property. We went into this one room, or we sat and the excess food was brought to us there, but we didn't go to other rooms.
p. 127QThank you. Mr. Gates, you already testified in the last hour you gave no financial payments, you had no financial arrangement or payments with Jeffrey Epstein. Is that right?
p. 127AThat's right.
p. 127QI just want to clarify a little bit using a document, so I'll enter as majority exhibit 5 a contract from the Epstein-owned entity, Southern Trust Company Inc. dated May 28th, 2013. This is from the DOJ release, and it's marked with Bates number EFTA01111961. [Gates Majority Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.]
p. 127QI'll give you a moment to look at it. It seems to be a contract of some kind for consulting services.
p. 127ABetween who and who?
p. 127QSo -- yes. If you direct your attention to the second block of texts, the second or third line up from the bottom it says in (d), "Bill Gates and affiliated trusts, partnerships, limited partnerships, and limited liability companies of, and any other entities affiliated with Mr. Gates," and then it says collectively clients because it lists a collection of clients. Do you have any knowledge of whether you were a client of any kind of the Southern Trust Company Inc.?
p. 128AI was not.
p. 128QHave you ever heard of the Southern Trust Company Inc.?
p. 128AI believe this document was shown to me as part of the Epstein files as one of the documents that my name came up in a dishonest and misleading way.
p. 128QSo that's your characterization is that this is a dishonest and misleading, you know, mention of you as a client?
p. 128AThat might be a little strong because it doesn't actually say I was a client, but it suggests that I might be one of the clients, and I was never a client in any way of Mr. Epstein, or any of his entities, including this thing that I don't know much about called Southern Trust Company.
p. 128QThank you.
p. 128Mr. Moran.Sorry, just for my records, that was marked 5.
p. 128Mr. Grant.Yes, sir.
p. 128Mr. Moran.Thank you.
p. 128Mr. Emmer.And prior to reviewing this document, had you ever come to learn during the course of knowing Mr. Epstein that he was representing himself to have you as a client?
p. 128Mr. Gates.I didn't know that he would represent that, and it would have been a falsehood.
p. 128Mr. Emmer.Thank you.
p. 128QMr. Gates, it seems through the course of reviewing documents, and as part of this interview with you here today, that there were more than a few people either associated with yourself and some of your ventures, or Microsoft generally, that also had relationships with Mr. Epstein. At the time, were you aware of all of these associates of yours having relationships of some kind with Mr. Epstein?
p. 128AWell, I'll mention the three, and then you can tell me if there's more that you are referring to. I thought Mr. Nikolic had a very limited relationship with Mr. Epstein in terms of facilitating meetings that I had with him, you know, the emails show a more extensive relationship. I thought Dr. Walker knew Epstein, and he mentioned her to me one time in our first dinner meeting, and then she sent me an email asking about that meeting. Subsequently I don't think we communicated about Epstein, although apparently there's some possibility of an August 2014 email that I'll -- maybe that's an exception. I'll have to track that down. So the extent of her relationship with Mr. Epstein I didn't know. I think another name that came up was Steven Sinofsky, and I did not know of him having any relationship with Mr. Epstein.
p. 129QAnd what about Mr. Myhrvold? I know he was brought up at some point in an earlier hour here today.
p. 129ANo, I never discussed Mr. Epstein with Mr. Myhrvold.
p. 129QAnd you had no awareness of them having any type of relationship at all at the time?
p. 129AI know when the Epstein files came out there was some things related to Mr. Myhrvold having some relationship with Mr. Epstein. But before that, I had a vague awareness of some connection, and I don't know where that came from, but we never discussed it.
p. 129QAnd what about Mr. Reid Hoffmann, were you aware of him having a relationship with Mr. Epstein?
p. 129AI think I did know that through some MIT connection, but I'm not sure that Mr. Hoffmann had met Mr. Epstein. But I was never -- other than -- actually, there is a December breakfast, the final meeting with Epstein where I'm presenting to a group of people about philanthropy and global health, Mr. Hoffmann attended that, and so did Mr. Epstein. So that's the one case where Mr. Hoffmann and Mr. Epstein and I were all together in the same place.
p. 129QAnd did you ever discuss Mr. Epstein with Mr. Hoffmann, other than this one meeting you just mentioned?
p. 129AIt might have come up that, you know, I talked to Mr. Hoffmann about a lot of things, but the fact that he was kind of an unknown, but a person with a bad reputation, that may have come up in one of my conversations with Mr. Hoffmann.
p. 130QAnd Mr. Cohen's, I'll call it a relationship with Mr. Epstein, is that due to his own accord, or is that because of his close proximity to you?
p. 130AYeah, I wouldn't call it a relationship. I mean, on my behalf he was involved, particularly in the Dr. Nikolic exit discussions, but I wouldn't call that a relationship.
p. 130QFair enough. And did Mr. Epstein ever ask you to hire someone to either Microsoft, or any of your other ventures?
p. 130ANever.
p. 130QAre you aware of anyone at Microsoft, or any of your other ventures, giving any type of inside investment information?
p. 130ANo.
p. 130QDid Mr. Epstein ever ask you for any type of inside investment information to your companies or ventures?
p. 130ANo.
p. 130QDid you ever discuss any stocks or trades, or anything related to financial markets with Mr. Epstein?
p. 130ANo.
p. 130QDid you ever --
p. 130AWell, let me amend that. I mean, the general idea of were markets going up or going down, that came up in some discussions, but not any specific company and what was going to happen with its stock.
p. 130QSo Mr. Epstein wouldn't have a conversation with you, then, about a particular company, say, Tesla, and say you should short this stock, or buy this stock?
p. 130ANo.
p. 131QJust one quick question for the last couple of sections here. Did any law enforcement entity of any kind ever approach you or ask you for information about Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?
p. 131AYeah. I think my lawyers can probably do a better job on this than I can, but I think the U.S. Virgin Islands conducted a voluntary interview with me.
p. 131Mr. Clare.Yeah. If I could just clarify. The Attorney General of the U.S. Virgin Islands made an informal request to Mr. Gates to cooperate with its investigation. Very much like he did here, Mr. Gates cooperated voluntarily, we turned over some documents to the Attorney General, and Mr. Gates sat for a voluntary proffer with the representatives of the U.S. Virgin Islands.
p. 131Mr. Spectre.What sorts of documents did the Virgin Islands request?
p. 131Mr. Clare.They, from recollection, they related mostly to financial documents. It was in connection with a, you know, tax questions primarily, and it related to J.P. Morgan Chase and some banking issues. So it was primarily focused on that.
p. 131Mr. Spectre.Okay. Thank you.
p. 131QAnd just so the record is clear, no one from the Southern District of New York ever reached out to you during Mr. Epstein's troubles when he was arrested subsequently in 2019?
p. 131ANo.
p. 131QAnd same question for Ms. Ghislaine Maxwell during her arrest in 2021, I believe it was?
p. 131ANo.
p. 131QThank you.
p. 131QMr. Gates, we do this sort of format in some of our interviews. I'm going to read you a long list of names, the question is the same for each person.
p. 132AOkay.
p. 132QIt's simply, have you ever communicated with that person regarding Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell. And there may be some repetition. I'll try to cut out the ones that we've already talked about for the most part, but -- so the first one, Richard Khan?
p. 132ANo, I never communicated with him.
p. 132QDarren Indyke?
p. 132ANever communicated with him.
p. 132QLesley Groff?
p. 132AI don't believe so. I mean, she might have been on some email chain, but I don't think I communicated with her.
p. 132QSarah Kellen?
p. 132AAgain, she might have been on some email chain, but I never communicated with her -- or, I don't know, maybe she's one of the women I wasn't introduced to in photos. I'm not sure.
p. 132QWhen you say that Ms. Groff and Ms. Kellen may have been on an email chain, do you mean an email chain along with Mr. Epstein?
p. 132AYes.
p. 132QNext person, Doug Band?
p. 132ANo.
p. 132QLarry Summers?
p. 132AYes. As I've discussed, Dr. Summers came to a dinner, which is the second time I met Epstein. And other than that, no.
p. 132QHave you ever discussed the -- have you ever discussed Jeffrey Epstein's crimes or allegations against Jeffrey Epstein with Larry Summers?
p. 132ANo.
p. 133QNoam Chomsky?
p. 133ANo, I never met Noam Chomsky. I know his work very well. I think he's fairly old now. But I've never met him, or talked to him.
p. 133Q?
p. 133AI don't recognize that name, so, no.
p. 133QAlan Dershowitz?
p. 133ANo.
p. 133QGeorge Mitchell?
p. 133ANo.
p. 133QAndrew Mountbatten-Windsor, formerly Prince Andrew?
p. 133AYeah, I never -- nothing connected to Epstein. I encountered him two times in official visits in the U.K. where he was serving as something like the trade representative.
p. 133QBut never about Jeffrey Epstein?
p. 133ANever about Jeffrey Epstein.
p. 133QOkay.
p. 133AWeirdly in the set of photos that I guess Epstein kept, there is a photo of me and Prince Andrew at one of those official State meetings. But nothing in connection with Epstein, even though Epstein seemed to have that picture and it shows up in the Epstein files.
p. 133QThat's right. Do you recall if Jeffrey Epstein was also in attendance at that State dinner?
p. 133ANever.
p. 133QHe definitely wasn't in attendance there?
p. 133ANo, no, I never saw him in the U.K., and those were both meetings in the U.K.
p. 133QThank you. Peter Mandelson?
p. 133ANo.
p. 134QKaryna Shuliak?
p. 134AI don't know. Is that one of the assistants?
p. 134QShe is reported to have dated Mr. Epstein. It's just if you recall having a conversation with these people about Jeffrey Epstein, or Ghislaine Maxwell.
p. 134AThe only time I recall that meeting was earlier today someone sitting on that side of the table said that a person that I couldn't identify in a photo had that name.
p. 134QBut you don't recall the specifics of any conversation with her if you had one?
p. 134ANo. Apparently, though, I was photographed with her. I think somebody represented that here today.
p. 134QThank you. Ehud Barak?
p. 134ANo.
p. 134QPaul Morris?
p. 134AYeah, I don't recognize that name.
p. 134QSultan Ahmed bin Sulayem?
p. 134ANo.
p. 134QLeslie Wexner?
p. 134ANo.
p. 134QHarvey Weinstein?
p. 134ANo.
p. 134QAny member of the Rothschild's family?
p. 134ANo. It's a lot of people, but still no.
p. 134QThere are several names I can read if you would like.
p. 134ANo, no, please.
p. 134QCasey Wassermann?
p. 134ANo.
p. 135QStacey Plaskett?
p. 135AI don't know who that is.
p. 135QHoward Lutnick?
p. 135ANo.
p. 135QSteve Bannon?
p. 135ANo.
p. 135QElon Musk?
p. 135ANo.
p. 135QAbigail Johnson?
p. 135ANo.
p. 135QJeff Bezos?
p. 135ANo.
p. 135QLarry Page?
p. 135ANope.
p. 135QSergey Brin?
p. 135ANo.
p. 135QPresident Bill Clinton?
p. 135ANo.
p. 135QSecretary Hillary Clinton?
p. 135ANo.
p. 135QI don't think I said, other than the one meeting where Ted Waitt was with Ghislaine Maxwell, have you ever discussed Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell with Ted Waitt?
p. 135ANo.
p. 135QMr. Gates, just a couple of final questions for you. So your relationship -- can you remind us, for the record, when your relationship with Mr. Epstein formally -- when you cut off ties with Mr. Epstein, other than his couple of reachouts?
p. 136AAfter the December meeting in 2014.
p. 136QAnd during the last hour you discussed a little bit about the final few meetings or discussions with regard to the donor-advised funds with Mr. Epstein. That was in 2014. Is that right?
p. 136AThat's right.
p. 136QI'm just trying to understand, after the summer of 2013, and all of the various emails we discussed, again, acknowledging some of them you didn't know about at the time, but, regardless, the interactions you had with Mr. Epstein where he was making veiled threats about personal issues, including your affairs, why did you continue to engage with Mr. Epstein about philanthropy going into 2014?
p. 136AWell, the Dr. Nikolic exit, you know, ended up exactly as it started with something that I felt was fair, and Dr. Nikolic ended up deciding was fair. And so that was kind of a weird thing, and I admit it should have added to the many negative things about Mr. Epstein. And then in the fall, I have the dinner where my ex-wife took her already somewhat negative view of Mr. Epstein and felt after she had met him in person that one time, she had an even more negative view of him. You know, there were a lot of things saying that, you know, the risk of, even in this very limited role, which was referring me to people, not being paid, not playing any role, that I should have had better judgment to cut it off. And I would say I was a bit stubborn in thinking, Hey, was this completely a dead end, and so I continued through 2014 to try and get meetings with actual donors. And then in September I got that, then there's one more breakfast where I presented philanthropic opportunities, and only then did I completely abandon any connection with him.
p. 136QAnd did you formally tell him at this point that you didn't wish to see or speak with him anymore?
p. 136AI think my final email to him says, Hey, the raising money isn't going to work. And so because that was clearly the thing I had focused time on, that was clearly the end of the relationship. He continued to email me, and so through Larry Cohen, not in an email, because I sent that one final email and that was it. But Mr. Cohen made it clear to Mr. Epstein that I had severed the relationship completely and he wouldn't be seeing me or hearing from me.
p. 137QAnd one final question for you, when we were discussing earlier about the two initial extramarital affairs, and then we talked about a third one, one of the reasons you gave for those being the only ones that are relevant to the committee's inquiry was because if Mr. Epstein had anything else bad to say about you, any other damaging information about you, then he would have written it elsewhere in his emails. Is that a fair characterization of what you said?
p. 137AYeah, he managed to put in some true embarrassing things, specifically the affairs, and then he managed to put in a lot of false things. And so, I think if he had known anything negative about me it would have shown up in those. But that's all speculation based on what I've seen in January of this year. You know, the foolishness of my spending time with him is about 100 times higher after I see the January emails.
p. 137QOkay. Thank you. Chairman Comer. Mr. Gates, on behalf of the Oversight Committee, and the entire Congress, I want to thank you for coming in today voluntarily. Thank you for answering all of our questions. And I have to conclude by thanking you for your philanthropy and all the great charitable work that you have done, and will hopefully continue to do. So thank you.
p. 137Mr. Gates.No, that will be the focus the rest of my life. And I don't know if anything I did today is helpful in your quest, but I hope you can find justice for the victims. Chairman Comer. Thank you.
p. 137Mr. Spectre.Thank you, sir. We can go off the record. [Whereupon, at 3:43 p.m., the interview was concluded.] Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee I have read the foregoing _ _ pages, which contain the correct transcript of the answers made by me to the questions therein recorded. _ _ Witness Name _ _ Date