[0:00]We are resuming from break, and the time is 1049 on Friday, July 25th.
[0:06]All right. We've talked around this issue, but talked about it a little bit.
[0:22]I want to spend the next hour or so, or however long it takes.
[0:28]When you, when we, I want to talk, focus kind of exclusively on Epstein
[0:36]and, like, his criminal conduct with respect to women.
[0:40]Um, do you, you said yesterday a couple times that, like, you now kind of recognize
[0:51]or think that there were things that he did that you didn't know about
[0:55]and that he kept from you or that you didn't see.
[1:02]What did you see?
[1:03]So, you said yesterday, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth,
[1:08]but at some point he was getting massages seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day.
[1:15]What?
[1:15]Women have said that, that were there, that say they were there giving him massages,
[1:20]said that, that those included some sort of sexual conduct,
[1:27]however you define that in the broadest sense, not just a traditional massage, regularly.
[1:33]So, what do you, what did you see and hear at the time?
[1:41]And then, I think, aside from what you saw and heard at the time,
[1:47]now that you've been through what you've been through and heard people say,
[1:50]what they've said and read what they've read, what do you, where does that leave you in your mind with what happened?
[1:57]Okay.
[1:58]So, I saw Epstein with women.
[2:05]What I mean by that is he would have women around him or women on the plane or women in his house,
[2:16]or that's how I'm explaining that.
[2:20]Those women were very interested.
[2:27]My characterisation of the relationships between all women that I saw with him and him
[2:36]was characterised by their interest in him, as I would see it.
[2:45]And by that I mean, I never saw anybody who didn't want to be with him,
[2:54]be with him maybe socially or whatever.
[2:57]I never saw anybody not,
[2:59]under any circumstances,
[3:00]in any form of duress,
[3:02]in any type of situation where they were, as I would characterise it,
[3:08]looking uncomfortable or in any way distressed.
[3:11]In the entire time I was with him,
[3:14]or travelled with him,
[3:16]I never saw that.
[3:18]So, any time I saw anybody with him,
[3:21]they were happy to be with him.
[3:23]He would ask people all the time, whoever you were, to massage his feet.
[3:29]He'd be sitting there and he'd have somebody massage his feet or squeeze his shoulders.
[3:36]I saw that a lot.
[3:39]It was an ubiquitous interaction, if you will.
[3:43]So, I did see that.
[3:46]I saw physicality, but not anything that looked aggressive, I suppose, to define that.
[4:03]So, I never saw an aggressive move.
[4:05]I never saw anything that was...
[4:07]Non-consensual.
[4:08]Well, thank you.
[4:09]Okay.
[4:10]I never saw anything that was non-consensual.
[4:13]So, if he...
[4:15]Well, maybe they didn't...
[4:17]I never saw anything that looked like they didn't like the hug or...
[4:22]I never saw what I would characterise as anything that was consensual.
[4:26]Did you see...
[4:29]Did you see...
[4:32]him either receiving or...
[4:34]receiving or participating in sexual conduct during massages?
[4:39]Understanding you never saw something non-consensual.
[4:42]Did you see him engaged in sexual conduct during massages?
[4:45]Well, you could define sexual conduct as in...
[4:48]I did see women who could have been, you know, less than normally clad for a massage,
[4:55]but especially on the island where they would be in a bikini or possibly even topless.
[4:59]Yeah, I did see that.
[5:00]So, you would...
[5:02]But what about in...
[5:03]So, yes, I agree.
[5:06]That's one area.
[5:07]Like, so, women who were either not clothed or topless with just a bottom on.
[5:15]But beyond that, did you see as part of that him touching them?
[5:20]And again, I'm not talking about consent or not consent or age or, you know,
[5:24]I'm saying, like, there's multiple, multiple, you know, dozens and dozens of women
[5:30]who have said that they were...
[5:32]that they engaged in sexual conduct.
[5:33]And I agree there's a broad range of what that can...
[5:40]how that can be defined.
[5:41]But defining it in the broadest of terms.
[5:44]I saw him being physical with women.
[5:46]I did see that, but nothing that was not consensual.
[5:48]And to address the issue of the large number of women who today say that he was not consensual
[5:56]or coercive with them, I'm sure...
[6:07]In my mind, I sort of think that...
[6:08]In my mind, I sort of have to characterize the two distinct areas.
[6:11]There's one where it is the women who are not of age.
[6:15]Therefore, anything with them is immediately unconsensual.
[6:18]Correct.
[6:19]So let's start.
[6:20]I don't want to define anyone who's underage versus anybody who's overage,
[6:24]because I do think that there's a very significant differential between the two.
[6:29]Well, so does the law.
[6:30]Yes, okay.
[6:31]I don't mean that.
[6:32]No, I agree with you.
[6:34]Yes, I agree with you.
[6:35]Okay, so I want to deal with the thing which is really why we're here.
[6:40]I mean, not that I'm not going to deal with the other,
[6:41]but I just want to make a distinction with the underage situation,
[6:44]because there's nothing about that that's right.
[6:49]I never saw anything with anybody who was certainly to be categorical from my trial.
[6:59]Let's deal with that, because that's something that I can say.
[7:03]I never saw that with them at all.
[7:07]And so...
[7:07]I would say that, as described anyway, in my trial, did not happen as described.
[7:15]I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do those things.
[7:18]I'm not casting those...
[7:21]I'm not going to say...
[7:22]I don't feel comfortable saying that today, given what I now know to be true.
[7:25]So I'm not here to defend him.
[7:27]But what I can say is that I did not participate in that activity.
[7:32]So let's divide this into two areas.
[7:36]Maybe there's more, but we'll start.
[7:37]There are two areas.
[7:38]One is there was testimony, and there's certainly been depositions and public statements
[7:43]that some of these young women had conversations with you about their age.
[7:51]So, for example, conversations about the fact that they were in high school
[7:56]or conversations about the fact that they wanted to go to college one day,
[7:59]which would necessarily mean...
[8:02]Well, not necessarily, but would be more likely to mean that they were in high school
[8:06]when they talked to you about that.
[8:07]And so, were there women that you knew were underage?
[8:15]And I say that because that's different than whether they were sexually abused in any way
[8:22]by Mr. Epstein, just merely their age, and going to give him a massage.
[8:28]No, I never knew that, and I can categorically state that had any child said to me that they
[8:37]were 14, 15, 16, maybe not 17, because 17 in England, I mean, if someone had said they
[8:44]were 17, I don't...
[8:46]I've read so much that that did happen.
[8:48]I mean, I'm just...
[8:48]But I had no...
[8:49]I would never have permitted such a thing.
[8:51]I wouldn't even know what I would have done.
[8:55]So, some of the...
[8:57]I think even someone who testified at trial, but certainly publicly talked about, was
[9:01]as young as 14 when she was introduced to Mr. Epstein.
[9:07]So, in your mind today, you don't...
[9:17]You kind of reject that that happened, that you saw that, meaning you don't recall any
[9:21]obviously under-18 woman coming to give him a massage.
[9:26]Well, I believe you're talking about Jane, and I'm very happy to address that.
[9:30]I actually don't think that the testimony is correct.
[9:35]I don't believe...
[9:36]Yeah, look, I don't...
[9:36]No, no, I'm not...
[9:37]I just wanted to...
[9:37]Yeah, yeah, I don't want to get into...
[9:39]No, no, no.
[9:39]He said, she said.
[9:40]No, no, absolutely not.
[9:41]I don't want to go there.
[9:42]I'm not...
[9:42]I'm not going to do that.
[9:44]But I believe that what took place with a lot of these people is that there was a slide,
[9:48]right?
[9:49]So, there was a zone, and he did meet her, and I did meet her, and I knew that she
[9:57]was a young child, and I knew that she was not an adult, because...
[10:02]But I don't believe he met her until she was 16.
[10:05]So, I'm not...
[10:05]I'm not doing a he said, she said.
[10:08]I'm not doing that, because nobody...
[10:10]That's not what we have.
[10:11]Okay.
[10:11]But he didn't meet her until she was 16, and the entire testimony of the 14, 15, and
[10:19]16-year-old is, therefore, not accurate.
[10:24]Did I meet her when she was 16 with her mother?
[10:27]I absolutely did.
[10:28]And did I know that she was young?
[10:29]I absolutely did.
[10:30]But everything that took place that was alleged at trial at the 14, and 15, and 16 is not
[10:39]accurate.
[10:40]And I don't...
[10:44]There's testimony, or there's...
[10:45]And again, I'm using testimony in the broadest sense.
[10:48]Some of this is just public statements, or something that's come out in civil lawsuits
[10:52]about you and Mr. Epstein giving, like, an 18...
[10:59]You're turning 18 birthday card to somebody, which, again, if true, would, by definition,
[11:04]mean you knew that she was under 18.
[11:07]Do you recall doing that?
[11:08]I do not.
[11:10]I mean, no memory of that at all.
[11:16]And I believe that would be the person that called herself Kate, has now announced herself
[11:22]in her own podcast for who she really is.
[11:25]Her name is ******.
[11:26]So I did not meet a ****** until, actually, she was either 20 or 21.
[11:31]So it would be very hard for me to have given her an 18 birthday card.
[11:36]And the testimony, also, that slid back.
[11:40]Do you accept...
[11:41]Do you accept that, at some point, and we talked about this yesterday, about how Mr.
[11:46]Epstein changed, but at some point, Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women.
[11:53]I accept.
[11:54]And I think you said yesterday, but say it again, since we're talking about it.
[11:57]Is that something that you, in your mind, one of the areas where he changed from when
[12:03]you first met him until later?
[12:05]So I...
[12:05]I just also wanted to be clear.
[12:08]I never understood that change to encompass...
[12:11]Encompass children.
[12:13]I did see, from when I met him, he was involved or involved or friends with, or whatever,
[12:20]however you want to characterize it, with women who were in their 20s.
[12:23]And then the slide to, you know, 18 younger-looking women.
[12:32]But I never considered that this would encompass criminal behavior.
[12:39]It never...
[12:40]And so...
[12:44]When you read, I guess, two different times, right?
[12:48]One was during the Florida investigation, when there were eventually public statements
[12:55]from some of these now women who testified about what they did with Mr. Epstein when
[13:02]they were under 18.
[13:06]At that point, did you realize, or did you think to yourself, this happened, or this
[13:11]could have happened, I missed it?
[13:12]Or were you, at that point, still in the mindset?
[13:17]That they were either not telling the truth, or were not remembering what happened the
[13:24]way that...
[13:24]Accurately.
[13:26]That's a very fair question.
[13:27]So I think that my view of this at that time, call it as contemporaneously as it did, because
[13:38]I don't think that stuff came out in public.
[13:40]I mean, I may have read things, but I don't...
[13:44]My first real memory of that is at the trial.
[13:46]But...
[13:47]Yeah, that's fair.
[13:47]But...
[13:47]Yeah.
[13:47]Yeah.
[13:47]Yeah.
[13:47]Yeah.
[13:47]Yeah.
[13:47]Yeah.
[13:47]Yeah.
[13:47]Yeah.
[13:47]Yeah.
[13:47]My viewpoint, if you will, was set from the minute that she lied in her civil deposition.
[13:58]And I could never recover from that, because...
[14:01]What are you referring to?
[14:03]Her entire characterization of...
[14:10]Okay.
[14:10]Now, I don't remember how she came and whether I did...
[14:15]I see.
[14:15]But I'm talking about the first time she came to Epstein's house, which I knew to be false.
[14:19]So from that first lie of that description, I could never recover from that.
[14:25]I understand.
[14:25]Okay.
[14:27]So...
[14:30]And that tainted...
[14:31]Sorry, just so that we're clear.
[14:32]It tainted then the testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post that, because
[14:39]I had my own personal experience, which I knew to be false.
[14:42]Yeah.
[14:43]And the reason why I think...
[14:45]And I said to Mr. Marcus that this morning...
[14:50]That we were going to talk about this, because when I think about you and the public's perception
[14:58]of Mr. Epstein, the public is left with the view that nobody in the world knows what really
[15:06]happened except for you, okay?
[15:08]Now, you've explained the last day and a half how some of that's just a misperception, because
[15:12]you weren't...
[15:13]You didn't have a key to his house.
[15:15]You weren't around as much as maybe everybody claims you were, okay?
[15:19]But there still is this perception out there that, oh, my gosh, if we could talk to
[15:25]Ms. Maxwell, we would know how horrible Mr. Epstein was or how misperceived he was, whatever
[15:34]the truth is about Mr. Epstein.
[15:36]And the challenge in my mind, just to be...
[15:39]I told you I would tell you when I had issues, and the challenge in my mind is that so many
[15:45]women have said...
[15:49]That Mr. Epstein sexually assaulted them, whether juveniles or adults, that I don't find it...
[16:01]That's persuasive, right, that that happened.
[16:04]Okay, so...
[16:05]And so if that's persuasive, then...
[16:08]And I think it's beyond contestation that he preferred younger women, and it's also beyond,
[16:17]I think, at this point, there were certainly circumstances.
[16:19]The underage women...
[16:22]Well, I don't want to say that you agree with me on that.
[16:26]I certainly believe that there were younger age women that were abused by him, okay?
[16:33]And so...
[16:35]And then, so the layer that I want you to...
[16:37]That I really want to have a frank discussion about is some of these women have said, oh,
[16:42]yes, you know, Ms. Maxwell was there, you know, to varying degrees.
[16:46]She saw me there.
[16:48]She...
[16:48]The door was open.
[16:49]When I was...
[16:49]And then much more egregious, right, that you participated and that you were part of it.
[16:55]And so what I really want you to have an opportunity to say to us is where on the spectrum the truth is,
[17:04]whether it's somewhere in the middle, whether it's one extreme or another extreme,
[17:09]understanding, in my mind, I'm talking about 1994, 5, to whenever, late 90s, early 2000s.
[17:17]And let me just interrupt.
[17:19]And all I would say is we're not here to say anything one way or the other about Epstein.
[17:26]I agree with you that the evidence is overwhelming against him, and he's his own person and has
[17:33]to deal with that.
[17:34]But Galen can speak about what she knows and from her point of view and what she did,
[17:40]and that's what you can talk about, Galen.
[17:42]Okay.
[17:43]So I think it's helpful to put this on the timeline.
[17:49]On the calendar, because I think without that, we're lost.
[17:53]So I would say, we'll go from the beginning, 91, no, 2, no, 3, no, 4, no, 5, no, 6.
[18:01]Now, in that time frame, you have the allegations of Jane, who I dispute.
[18:08]I don't think you met her until she was...
[18:09]Let's not talk about individuals.
[18:11]Oh, no, no, I'm just saying.
[18:12]Yeah, yeah, I'm with you.
[18:12]But there's only...
[18:13]So in that time period, I'm only aware of her.
[18:16]I'm aware of a girl...
[18:19]Who said, but...
[18:22]I don't know of any others, and if there are other people who are making allegations
[18:29]about her, I'm not actually aware of that.
[18:32]I may have read them in the...
[18:34]But I don't know.
[18:35]So I think in the early 90s period, I think I'm fairly confident, and I can say that
[18:41]at least as characterised, it's just false.
[18:45]It's just, it didn't happen as said now.
[18:46]Did it happen...
[18:48]Did he...
[18:50]Did he involve himself...
[18:52]I knew about Jane because I saw her come to the house, but I saw her with her mother.
[18:57]I know that her allegations are that there were orgies, for instance, but the people
[19:06]that she suggests were in her orgies didn't even work for Epstein until 98 or 99.
[19:13]Did he do orgies with those people?
[19:16]And how...
[19:17]I don't know anybody who was there who said that they did.
[19:20]I certainly didn't see it.
[19:21]I can't say that that happened.
[19:23]But did she do it with someone else?
[19:26]I don't know.
[19:26]The stories really start...
[19:28]The allegations really begin with...
[19:32]And I think that you have to shift his behaviour, such as it was, bar there was one in California
[19:38]who made an allegation.
[19:40]There was a woman who said that she...
[19:42]And she's...
[19:43]I didn't know about.
[19:44]So I think I would call her the first person.
[19:46]I'd be aware of him using his position to...
[19:49]I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to...
[19:53]I don't want...
[19:54]I don't want to have you...
[19:58]I don't think it's helpful for us to have you kind of address each allegation.
[20:03]I want you to clear your mind and just tell the truth about it.
[20:06]So I'm not saying you're not telling the truth.
[20:07]I'm saying just putting aside what other people have said or what their lawyers have said
[20:11]or what they testified to or, you know, the rumours in the press.
[20:16]Push those aside.
[20:17]You were there.
[20:21]And...
[20:21]And so when you go back...
[20:23]That time period, 92, 93, 99, 2000, 2001, during that time period,
[20:28]what did you see when it comes to young women and massages?
[20:33]All right, so I saw him receive massages.
[20:36]He had regular masseuses in the 90s,
[20:38]people who were standard and who travelled with him, and I saw that.
[20:42]He was living in that Iranian house, and now that I look back, he had...
[20:48]I didn't stay there, but I would go to manage the house.
[20:51]I would see women.
[20:53]I would see models or people that he would have come to the house.
[21:01]I know that I thought that he was with Eva still at that time.
[21:05]That's what I believed.
[21:07]And then subsequently believed that even though she married him,
[21:10]I actually subsequently believed that the baby that she had was his.
[21:14]Can I interrupt for one second?
[21:16]Yeah, of course.
[21:16]Can I just ask some basic top-line questions?
[21:19]Yes.
[21:20]Were you ever in a massage room with him and a masseuse?
[21:24]Yes.
[21:25]Okay. When was that?
[21:28]Well, he would come in sometimes and he would say,
[21:31]oh, give her a massage here, or he would grab my...
[21:34]But not often. I mean, he did come in from time to time.
[21:38]Were you ever in a massage room with him with a masseuse that was naked
[21:42]or giving him any sexual favours?
[21:45]I never saw that. I remember.
[21:47]Okay.
[21:49]Did any of the masseuses ever discuss with you
[21:52]that they gave sexual favours?
[21:54]No.
[21:58]Did you ever see an underage girl go into a massage room with Mr. Epstein?
[22:02]No.
[22:03]If you had seen that, what would you have done?
[22:08]Would you have left?
[22:10]I can't even conceive.
[22:12]I can't even conceive of...
[22:16]I can't imagine what I would have done.
[22:18]All right. I'm sorry.
[22:19]No, that's okay. Okay.
[22:21]Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage?
[22:27]Yes.
[22:29]I mean...
[22:30]When I'd seen him on a massage table, I had seen him masturbate.
[22:34]I don't know if there was a masseuse present, but I've seen him on a massage table.
[22:37]I see. Okay.
[22:37]Sorry.
[22:38]Did you ever see him masturbate with a masseuse,
[22:42]you know, with a naked woman,
[22:44]either giving him a massage or reporting to give him a massage?
[22:48]I don't remember seeing that.
[22:52]Did you give him massages, by the way?
[22:54]I mean, there's a photo of you rubbing his feet, and I think...
[22:58]I never...
[23:00]I certainly have been in the massage room with him,
[23:03]and I have certainly rubbed his feet when he would talk,
[23:06]but I was not a masseuse, and I didn't perform massage on him.
[23:13]Did you...
[23:16]Along...
[23:17]During the...
[23:19]Or over the years, did you pay the masseuses?
[23:21]I...
[23:22]It was typically not my job, but if there was nobody else...
[23:26]Normally, in Palm Beach, the houseman would give the money,
[23:30]and in New York, he would do that,
[23:33]because I wouldn't be in New York when he...
[23:35]I mean, I don't remember ever paying a masseuse in New York.
[23:38]So it wasn't your job on a regular basis to pay the masseuses.
[23:44]So if there was a masseuse seven days a week,
[23:47]it wasn't expected that seven days a week you would be the one handing them money.
[23:52]Mostly, I would not.
[23:53]I'm not saying I never did it, because that wouldn't be true,
[23:56]but it was not my job to pay him.
[23:57]I mostly recall he would either pay them himself,
[24:00]he would have money, or the houseman,
[24:04]and I think some of them would have probably received checks.
[24:11]And so just picking up on what Mr. Marcus was just asking you,
[24:16]did you participate in sexual activity with him with a masseuse, like at the same time?
[24:24]No.
[24:24]And so the testimony...
[24:26]I don't know if there was testimony, but the women who have said that that happened,
[24:32]categorically, that's not true.
[24:34]That is categorically not true.
[24:38]Did you...
[24:42]Moving past the...
[24:45]Moving into the 2000s...
[24:46]I just want to say that I have been...
[24:48]I mean, I remember there'd be times when he'd be getting a massage,
[24:52]and I'd be in the room, I could be on his feet,
[24:53]and somebody else could be on his feet, and we could be talking.
[24:56]So there is that.
[25:00]But that's not...
[25:00]You're not talking about something that's sexual,
[25:02]you're talking about literally just rubbing his feet.
[25:04]Yes.
[25:04]Okay.
[25:05]But I mean...
[25:06]No, that's not what I'm talking about.
[25:07]I'm saying...
[25:07]They could be...
[25:09]Sometimes the women might be topless who were giving that,
[25:11]so you could say that was sexual in that context.
[25:16]No, I'm talking about the repeated reports of certain sex acts happening with you present,
[25:24]and even participating.
[25:25]No.
[25:28]Did you...
[25:33]In the 2000s time period, so moving a little more recently,
[25:36]when you talked about it yesterday,
[25:38]about...
[25:39]How your relationship with Mr. Upton changed,
[25:43]and was changing,
[25:44]and you ultimately met somebody else.
[25:49]Did you observe any massages,
[25:58]or young women giving him massages later on?
[26:02]So after 2000, 2001 time period.
[26:04]I'm sure I did.
[26:06]And was there anything different about what you observed during that period,
[26:10]and the 90s?
[26:11]In the 90s, as far as frequency, his conduct towards them?
[26:16]I think the frequency increased.
[26:18]I think he went from one to two in that time period.
[26:22]And...
[26:23]But I did not see...
[26:26]I have no recollection of ever seeing a child entering the house and giving him a massage.
[26:40]I...
[26:40]At that time, he had moved me out of the main house.
[26:43]I had moved into an office with John Alessi,
[26:45]the former...
[26:46]Under the stairs.
[26:48]So I had an office where I would be,
[26:52]that was not part of the house.
[26:55]If I saw people...
[26:56]And I'm not saying I didn't see people come to give him a massage.
[27:00]That wouldn't be true either.
[27:01]But if I saw someone, let's say,
[27:06]I wouldn't...
[27:08]I don't remember ever seeing anybody that I would characterize as a child.
[27:12]Now, specifically someone who...
[27:17]Excuse me of seeing her.
[27:20]At the time when she came, if I did see her,
[27:22]and I don't believe I did see her or meet her at all,
[27:25]but if she did, she was, as she's described herself now,
[27:30]was very mature and looked in her 20s.
[27:33]So could somebody have come that was more mature looking
[27:37]than the allegation of what she did look like
[27:42]with a photograph that was produced as evidence?
[27:45]Yes.
[27:45]But I...
[27:47]I never recall at any time
[27:50]seeing what I would characterize as a child
[27:53]coming to give him a massage and going upstairs.
[27:57]Did I see people come?
[27:58]I absolutely did.
[28:00]Did I...
[28:01]I just didn't see children.
[28:04]I didn't see anybody I would think of as a child.
[28:06]And if I had seen a child, I wouldn't...
[28:11]Did you...
[28:16]Just talking, coming out a little bit of just bigger picture,
[28:20]do...
[28:20]At the time that you were in his life,
[28:24]did you...
[28:25]Was he a...
[28:27]Did he seem to you to be a sexual deviant or...
[28:31]I don't know what the right way to describe it,
[28:33]but when you say to me,
[28:34]he was getting massages every single day, right?
[28:36]So young women were everywhere,
[28:38]multiple massages on some days,
[28:40]flew with the women to the island, to New York, Paris.
[28:44]There's always women.
[28:45]They're always rubbing him, giving him massages.
[28:47]I think it's...
[28:50]It would be an understatement to say that that's not normal.
[28:52]I agree.
[28:56]We've all kind of been part of the Epstein story
[29:01]over the past several years,
[29:02]but you were there at the time, okay?
[29:05]What was it like at the time?
[29:06]I mean, was he a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing?
[29:10]Was he protective of how he looked publicly, image-wise?
[29:14]At the time, what was it like?
[29:15]I think if he had been creepy,
[29:20]as you would define and you would expect someone
[29:22]who was living that lifestyle,
[29:24]to be creepy,
[29:25]I don't think the women would have been there.
[29:27]I don't think that they thought of him as creepy,
[29:30]and if they did,
[29:32]I never saw them behave like he was being weird.
[29:37]Was it a lot?
[29:38]Yes, it was, for sure.
[29:41]I found it overwhelming,
[29:43]and I couldn't understand why it was interesting,
[29:46]because, to me, it's not interesting.
[29:51]But he, as he defined it,
[29:54]he found it invigorating.
[29:55]He liked being with younger people.
[29:57]Not just younger people, I'm just saying,
[30:00]because they gave him ideas,
[30:02]and they were up-to-date on music.
[30:05]Yeah, but that's different.
[30:06]I'm just telling you what he was saying to me.
[30:09]I mean, to me, I just found it a drag,
[30:13]and difficult and annoying.
[30:20]Did you...
[30:21]Understand, I wasn't the only person present,
[30:27]so this time in the 2000s,
[30:29]you're talking about other...
[30:30]Other people, like Sarah Cullen, who was around,
[30:34]who interfaced with him.
[30:37]I didn't have to...
[30:38]She was really interfacing with Epstein at this point in time,
[30:42]in his life.
[30:43]She was running his...
[30:45]She was his assistant.
[30:48]And so I didn't have to...
[30:50]That's a fair point,
[30:52]but move beyond his assistants or the folks that work with him.
[30:55]What about his friends
[30:57]and the people that were associated with him?
[30:59]It couldn't be...
[31:01]I don't understand how this is
[31:03]an after-fact of Mr. Epstein.
[31:08]So once he's arrested in Florida,
[31:11]it becomes part of his story,
[31:13]and then later on, he's charged in Southern District,
[31:16]and then here we are now in 2025.
[31:18]But he was a very successful, hard-working guy,
[31:21]and he had a lot of clients,
[31:22]and he flew with them on vacations and went to the island.
[31:25]I don't understand how...
[31:29]He was able to hide this,
[31:33]what seems to me to be
[31:34]some sort of sexual fixation or issue from others.
[31:39]I don't think he did hide it.
[31:40]I think that's the answer,
[31:41]and I think that the people around him,
[31:43]I think myself included, obviously,
[31:46]normalized his behavior on a number of fronts.
[31:51]One, I think it...
[31:55]Because it was a self...
[31:58]Because so many...
[32:01]Many people saw it.
[32:02]Of so many...
[32:04]Of such a high caliber down
[32:06]that never seemed to think it would...
[32:10]Well, if they thought it was strange,
[32:11]probably they never said it at the time,
[32:13]so it became sort of like it was his thing, right?
[32:16]He was always around with women.
[32:21]Now, you don't...
[32:23]I understand that it's very unattractive,
[32:27]especially in light of everything that we know today,
[32:29]but at the time,
[32:32]the only way I can...
[32:33]sort of try and describe it
[32:38]is through Sex and the City,
[32:42]the movie, the show on telly,
[32:46]where this is...
[32:48]That lifestyle is described on the TV show constantly.
[32:52]There were always these women around and men who like it,
[32:55]and a lot of the men that I know like women,
[33:01]and so maybe not as overtly as Epstein,
[33:04]but he was overt, not covert,
[33:07]obviously in the context of the criminal behavior.
[33:11]So what we're discussing now,
[33:13]there's a difference between the criminal behavior
[33:15]and the non-criminal behavior.
[33:16]You don't like the lifestyle.
[33:18]I concur.
[33:20]I agree, especially now,
[33:22]and I own my side of that fence,
[33:27]that I was there
[33:28]and that I saw his behavior with women
[33:34]and didn't challenge him or do something.
[33:38]But I don't...
[33:38]I don't...
[33:39]I don't...
[33:39]I don't...
[33:39]I don't think back in the 90s or the 2000s,
[33:43]we've had a cultural shift.
[33:46]And the cultural shift, I think,
[33:47]is a very important part of the analysis here.
[33:53]Not because I'm trying to justify this,
[33:55]because I'm not, and I'm not trying to,
[33:57]and I absolutely am not here to do the Poor Me program,
[34:01]so please don't misunderstand this.
[34:04]However, in the 2000s,
[34:07]when this behavior was...
[34:09]going down,
[34:10]in the initial blush of the Palm Beach investigation,
[34:15]the women who brought...
[34:16]the women who were underage,
[34:17]17, 16,
[34:21]I believe, if my memory serves,
[34:23]were actually targets of the investigation
[34:25]and could have been charged with prostitution and trafficking,
[34:30]if trafficking was even a law.
[34:32]So you're taking...
[34:33]you're taking behavior...
[34:37]and I did introduce him to...
[34:40]women.
[34:41]I did.
[34:43]But not underage women.
[34:46]I understand that there are allegations.
[34:48]I have read them about myself at major schools.
[34:50]I can categorically tell you
[34:53]that I have never in my life
[34:55]gone to a school to pick up a child.
[35:00]Well, just...
[35:06]No, I understand.
[35:06]Okay, thank you.
[35:07]I just want to be clear that
[35:09]I'm not trying to be cute or anything.
[35:12]But I did...
[35:15]I didn't do it for masseuses.
[35:16]I did.
[35:17]I went to spas.
[35:18]And if I met somebody who said she was a masseuse,
[35:21]I did not check their credentials.
[35:24]And of course, if she was attractive,
[35:26]I did introduce her.
[35:27]Yes.
[35:28]If I met friends who were interested,
[35:29]he was constantly asking me for...
[35:32]to meet new and interesting people.
[35:34]I did...
[35:34]I did do that.
[35:36]At the time,
[35:38]I viewed it as...
[35:40]Well, first of all,
[35:42]part of my job, I think,
[35:44]or part of...
[35:45]part of my responsibility, if you will,
[35:46]to introduce...
[35:47]Because it wasn't just women.
[35:49]If I met somebody who was interesting,
[35:50]like Mary Gellman,
[35:52]or who I thought he would like,
[35:53]I did that.
[35:53]So it's not exclusively...
[35:56]But he did.
[35:58]And I did do that.
[36:00]So...
[36:01]But then...
[36:02]So I want to layer on top of what you just said,
[36:04]what we talked about yesterday more,
[36:06]but a little bit today already,
[36:07]which is everybody that was around him besides you.
[36:11]Like, his friends.
[36:12]So I accept the lifestyle.
[36:14]I've seen the photos.
[36:16]In fact, everybody's...
[36:16]We're all going to go to the island for a couple days,
[36:19]or fly on a private plane,
[36:20]and there's beautiful women everywhere.
[36:23]Is there any...
[36:24]I mean, do you, as you sit here today,
[36:26]think that the people around him
[36:28]didn't also...
[36:31]weren't also of the same place
[36:34]where they were also getting massages,
[36:38]where there was sex going on during them,
[36:41]or things like that?
[36:43]And I'm obviously...
[36:44]I'm going to be asking this,
[36:45]because that's what everybody has said.
[36:48]And when you just described what it was like,
[36:52]the very next step from that
[36:55]is everybody's going to Vegas for the weekend, you know?
[36:57]And so it seems kind of far-fetched to say that,
[37:03]yes, that was his lifestyle,
[37:05]but then when he's taking groups of folks to the island,
[37:09]or groups of folks to New Mexico, or whatever,
[37:11]that they're all, you know, going to church,
[37:14]in the morning, while he's getting a massage.
[37:16]I hear you.
[37:17]I was there, though.
[37:20]Yeah.
[37:20]And you're talking about very substantial people,
[37:25]and you are extrapolating,
[37:28]because the narrative that started in...
[37:31]by the way, not until 2009
[37:34]is when it really started.
[37:37]So that narrative that was created,
[37:39]and then built upon,
[37:41]and just mushroomed into what...
[37:44]Basically, this is like a Salem witch trial.
[37:46]People have gone and lost their minds for this thing.
[37:49]I understand that.
[37:51]But the issue is,
[37:52]how do you satisfy a mob
[37:54]who can't understand the lifestyle,
[37:57]because it's like P. Diddy in Redux on TV
[38:00]with Clintons and Trumps.
[38:03]I mean, it's bananas.
[38:06]And while some of it is real,
[38:10]he did do those things.
[38:12]I'm definitely not disputing that.
[38:14]But...
[38:14]This was a man...
[38:16]They didn't even believe he had a real business.
[38:18]I happen to believe he did.
[38:21]Did he grip?
[38:22]I don't know,
[38:23]because I wasn't really in his business.
[38:26]But this is one man.
[38:29]He's not some...
[38:30]They've made him into this...
[38:33]He's not that interesting.
[38:37]He's a disgusting guy
[38:40]who did terrible things to young kids.
[38:43]You're not going to hear me say,
[38:44]what he did to people who are over the age of 18.
[38:47]I'm sorry.
[38:48]I'm not going to go there.
[38:50]That's just not what I'm here to...
[38:52]I mean, I...
[38:55]Okay.
[38:57]But to suggest that Larry Summers or Clinton
[39:07]would suddenly go,
[39:08]oh, my gosh, this is like a guy...
[39:10]I'm going to get my body rubbed and have some...
[39:13]The men that went and had a massage
[39:16]and maybe did something sexual?
[39:19]The men.
[39:21]I wasn't in the room.
[39:24]I cannot tell you if that happened.
[39:26]And if it did,
[39:28]I never paid for that,
[39:29]just so that we're clear.
[39:30]Nobody ever said to me,
[39:31]oh, you know, we had sexual intercourse
[39:34]and that's if it was a three...
[39:36]Uh-uh.
[39:37]I'd be like, okay, TMI.
[39:38]No, not my business.
[39:40]You want to...
[39:40]It's just not...
[39:42]And I didn't want to know.
[39:43]Maybe there's that.
[39:45]But did I, like,
[39:48]think these guys were coming for that?
[39:49]I really don't.
[39:51]If you met Epstein,
[39:53]there is no way that this cast of characters,
[39:55]of which it's extraordinary,
[39:57]some of whom are in your cabinet,
[39:59]who you value as your co-workers and you know,
[40:03]would be with him if he was a creep
[40:06]or because they wanted sexual favors.
[40:09]A man wants sexual favors, he will find that.
[40:11]They didn't have to come to Epstein for that.
[40:15]Now, did some...
[40:17]Okay, I don't know.
[40:18]I don't know.
[40:19]I wasn't there.
[40:20]I didn't see it.
[40:22]So, when's the last time you think
[40:30]you were with Mr. Epstein
[40:34]when he got a massage?
[40:42]I want to say...
[40:45]2007.
[40:47]2007?
[40:48]Yes.
[40:50]And the frequency at that point,
[40:59]so 2007,
[41:01]is that when...
[41:01]It was at its peak, would you say?
[41:04]Meaning, the number of interactions he was having
[41:07]daily with women and masseuses.
[41:11]I wasn't really in his life.
[41:13]I happened to be in the Caribbean in 2000.
[41:15]I was with Ted.
[41:16]And we...
[41:18]I was still speaking with Epstein
[41:20]because I was still involved in his,
[41:23]you know, loosely with his...
[41:24]the houses and the staff
[41:26]and some of the billing.
[41:29]And I was going back
[41:30]from being with Ted,
[41:31]in the Caribbean to New York.
[41:34]And Epstein offered me a ride.
[41:36]And so, Ted dropped me off in St. Thomas.
[41:39]And I was on the island, I believe,
[41:41]for one day and one night only.
[41:44]On that visit, I believe...
[41:47]Well, I know he would have gotten a massage.
[41:48]But I have...
[41:50]There were people there.
[41:53]But I did not...
[41:55]There were women.
[41:56]And I was just relieved.
[41:59]Not believing the next day.
[42:01]Let's take a break.
[42:01]We're going to take a break.
[42:04]The time is 11.31.