[0:00]Good morning. Today is Friday, July 25th. The time is 9.24 a.m.
[0:06]My name is ****** ******. I'm the Assistant Special Agent in Charge of FBI New York.
[0:11]And we are here for a recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell.
[0:17]Good morning. Good morning, Ms. Maxwell. How are you?
[0:19]Good morning.
[0:20]Good. So, the proffer agreement we signed yesterday,
[0:23]I just, there's a place on it for us to all kind of initial.
[0:31]It's exactly the same document, and you'll see your signature.
[0:36]If you can just initial right to the left of, right here.
[0:40]Right there.
[0:41]And then Mr. Marcus will initial as well.
[0:45]Thank you.
[0:46]And just to kind of, before we get going, I'll just say that,
[0:52]Okay.
[0:53]Exactly the same folks that were here when we met yesterday are here today.
[0:59]So there's no, I'm not going to do formal introductions,
[1:04]because it's exactly the same group of folks.
[1:07]So we're continuing, Ms. Maxwell, our discussion of yesterday.
[1:13]And the same kind of rules apply.
[1:18]If you will take breaks, if you need to talk to Mr. Marcus or your lawyers,
[1:22]no, absolutely.
[1:23]Absolutely, no problem.
[1:24]Just let me know.
[1:26]I'll try to ask my questions in a coherent manner,
[1:30]but if there's anything that I say that's confusing, definitely interrupt me.
[1:36]I will. Thank you.
[1:37]So, I think the easiest thing to start with is,
[1:43]is there anything that we talked about yesterday that,
[1:47]we're going to go through some more names.
[1:49]I think that we, that's one of the places that we interrupt,
[1:54]just because there's a lot of names.
[1:56]But aside from additional names,
[1:59]is there anything that you wanted to kind of follow up on
[2:02]that we talked about yesterday,
[2:03]or anything that you thought maybe you remember more of, or not?
[2:08]Some more names did come to me in the night,
[2:12]and I did have some additional memories,
[2:18]just for clarity.
[2:20]I believe I said that I couldn't think of anybody,
[2:23]who I may have asked from Mar-a-Lago,
[2:29]but then I realised that I was,
[2:32]the allegation at least is that I met s*** in Mar-a-Lago,
[2:36]so I felt that I needed to address that,
[2:39]and I didn't want to leave that hanging,
[2:40]because that seems weird under the circumstances.
[2:43]And also, but I couldn't remember anyone,
[2:45]and maybe, you know, it's a long period of time,
[2:48]so the issue is not that I'm trying to not say,
[2:50]but I just don't, I don't remember.
[2:53]Anybody that I would have,
[2:55]but it's not impossible that I might have asked someone.
[2:58]I don't, I don't know exactly what you said yesterday,
[3:02]but I don't think what you said yesterday
[3:04]is different than what you just said, so yes.
[3:07]Okay, okay, I just wanted to be,
[3:08]I just didn't want to feel that I had said no to something,
[3:11]and that it didn't, and...
[3:12]You definitely said that she was working at Mar-a-Lago,
[3:17]and that you received a treatment from her at some point,
[3:21]and that you recruited her,
[3:23]and that you recruited her to meet Mr. Epstein.
[3:25]Do you know affirmatively whether that's true or false,
[3:28]or do you just not have a memory either way?
[3:31]I really don't believe it's true,
[3:33]but I know that I did go to spas,
[3:37]and if I met someone, I did ask if they're home,
[3:40]so I don't, in the realms of possibility, it could have,
[3:44]but I have no memory of it,
[3:45]and I don't believe that it's how it went down,
[3:48]but I don't want to.
[3:49]Okay, so I want to talk about,
[3:52]we talked a little bit yesterday,
[3:53]about the financial part of your relationship with Mr. Epstein,
[3:58]kind of being on payroll, for lack of a better word,
[4:01]for many, many years, starting around $25,000,
[4:04]and ending up at around $250,000 per year.
[4:10]There's, as you know from your trial,
[4:13]there's banking information that shows a ton of money
[4:16]being sent to you from Mr. Epstein over the years,
[4:22]and I think that's a lot of money,
[4:23]and I think that's a lot of money,
[4:23]and I think that's a lot of money,
[4:23]and I think that's a lot of money,
[4:23]and I think totaling something like $30 million,
[4:26]something like this.
[4:28]What's the, why was that money sent to you?
[4:32]Like, what was that for?
[4:34]Well, first of all, I don't,
[4:36]I dispute the characterization that the money was sent to me.
[4:40]Okay, so tell me what,
[4:42]I am stuck with the witnesses at trial
[4:45]and what was said at trial on that issue,
[4:47]so what is the, what do you dispute about that?
[4:52]Well, I believe, I don't have full recollection,
[4:56]I'm not even sure I ever saw what they accused me of,
[4:59]but my belief is that that money also contained money
[5:05]that was for a helicopter, for instance,
[5:09]that I never owned, and I was never mine, and...
[5:15]In other words, money was sent to you
[5:16]that you then used to purchase things, or...
[5:19]Well, I'm not even sure that I purchased it,
[5:21]so the accounts, those accounts would be controlled by his accountants.
[5:26]Even accounts in your name, you're saying, or one of your entities?
[5:30]Well, I'm not even sure I knew of all the entities.
[5:34]I'm not, I don't, it, maybe I did contemporaneously,
[5:37]but I certainly wouldn't know today.
[5:39]So if there was an entity, let's say, account X,
[5:44]if I really set that up myself,
[5:46]or whether they said we're doing this and the money's coming or whatever,
[5:49]but in no...
[5:51]substantive way, I can't think of the right word, but...
[5:56]Did you have control over his accounts?
[5:57]I had no control, is what I'm saying.
[5:58]So when the government, when there was testimony
[6:01]or the government admitted evidence that showed, for example,
[6:05]$5 million in 2002 coming from Epstein to you, okay,
[6:13]what you're saying is that that may have, that happened,
[6:16]but that the you there wasn't money that, he wasn't giving you money.
[6:21]I...
[6:21]No.
[6:21]I'm not going to say that for everything,
[6:23]because maybe there were accounts that money was sent to me,
[6:26]but I can say that I know, like the helicopter, I can definitively say.
[6:32]I'd have to look at all of them to be accurate for you,
[6:38]but to explain how or why I could be receiving monies,
[6:43]and I certainly did, so I'm not disputing all of it.
[6:46]When you say that, let's go back and look at,
[6:47]why would, why did money have to go into your account?
[6:51]Or account that was controlled by others, but in your name,
[6:55]to, like, purchase a helicopter?
[6:57]Oh, that's a very good question.
[6:59]I'm not sure I know the answer to that.
[7:04]I don't.
[7:06]So let me ask this maybe a different way that gets to the issue, right?
[7:12]So the accusation by the government, based upon the evidence they collected,
[7:17]is that Epstein paid you millions and millions of dollars over the years,
[7:23]and the reason why...
[7:23]The reason why he paid you that is because you were performing an extraordinary service for him
[7:27]by recruiting young women, many of whom were underage,
[7:32]to, to, so that he could sexually abuse them.
[7:37]Okay, that's their, that's their allegation.
[7:39]Okay.
[7:39]From what you said yesterday and from what I've reviewed about you and Mr. Epstein,
[7:49]he paid for a lot in your life.
[7:53]Your flights, where you stayed with him.
[7:56]I mean, he didn't...
[7:57]He didn't expect you to reimburse him along the way for food and, you know,
[8:00]so he took care of you for many years.
[8:02]That is true.
[8:03]On top of that, he actually paid you a salary, as we talked about, $25,000 to $250,000.
[8:09]What else did he give you?
[8:11]Or what, what purchase?
[8:12]Like, was there a time when he gave you a million dollars or $500,000 as a bonus?
[8:17]Or what, what financial benefit did you receive from him?
[8:21]Besides what we've already talked about.
[8:22]We don't have to talk about what would, you know...
[8:24]I got it, I got it.
[8:25]Okay.
[8:25]So, Michael...
[8:28]I was always, was to become independent, independently, financially secure, and work for myself.
[8:39]I've never been one to not work.
[8:42]And in that regard, over the course of my friendship and my working relationship with Epstein,
[8:52]I expressed to him my desire to be independent of him everywhere.
[8:58]Just to be...
[8:58]freestanding.
[9:00]And that in, with that in mind, I wanted to have my own businesses, or my own, my own
[9:10]money coming in, independent and separate from any salary that I received from him.
[9:16]And I needed that for my self-esteem.
[9:19]I've never been, I mean, obviously salary, and it was a very generous one, please, I'm
[9:24]not belittling the sum of money, because it's huge, but I...
[9:29]I was...
[9:31]I was brought up to work, and I was brought up to be my own the first time, so I would
[9:40]either propose businesses to him, or he would actually suggest, why didn't I do something.
[9:46]And the first deal that we did, or the first business that we had, or I had, and that
[9:54]he financed for me, so he gave, he loaned me all the money to enable me to do this,
[10:00]and then I reaped the profits, which I...
[10:03]I don't remember now, because we varied over the deals that we did, that I would give him
[10:08]50% or 25, it was sort of, it was random.
[10:13]So...
[10:13]And I can tell you what it is.
[10:14]Go ahead.
[10:15]So it was in Palm Beach, actually, and it was in real estate, and they sold what was
[10:21]the grounds origine of an estate called the Phipps Estate, and then they converted the
[10:29]land that came with that estate into...
[10:34]Houses.
[10:35]And I did, I think, two, or maybe three, I can't remember now, but certainly one, and
[10:41]maybe two, possibly three, I don't think so, I think two, that then were flipped, and there
[10:48]was a profit.
[10:49]So that would be an example of that.
[10:51]But I didn't have the money, so he lent me the funds to do that business transaction,
[10:57]and then I reaped the profits.
[10:59]And so, but when...
[11:01]And that's millions of dollars.
[11:03]One of...
[11:03]One of...
[11:04]A financial investigator, like, the FBI looks at accounts, they don't know, kind of, the
[11:10]conversations you're having, they just see the money.
[11:11]Right.
[11:12]So in those cases, when that happened, when he would, when he financed that with you,
[11:17]would he send money to you?
[11:19]So does that explain some of the money?
[11:22]Like, I guess...
[11:22]I believe, I think it does.
[11:24]I think, for instance, there were two gullwing Mercedes that they did with Mercedes and
[11:31]Aston Martin.
[11:32]You can look up, I think, if I'm right.
[11:34]That had all the doors that would come up like this, that were only a very limited number
[11:39]that were made.
[11:40]So I knew that we could get those and flip them right within 24 hours, for example.
[11:48]Also, my...
[11:53]Here's another example of something that you guys wouldn't have known about, is I became
[11:57]a banker.
[11:57]I became a banker.
[11:57]I got my Series 63, Series 67 banking license and became a broker for, like, a new...
[12:06]And then, because I was day trading, everything I had I day traded through an account.
[12:13]And I think I was lucky more than smart, but I made quite a lot of money doing that.
[12:20]And so...
[12:20]When was that?
[12:21]Like, what...
[12:22]That's again, that's in the 90s again.
[12:24]I don't...
[12:25]I think...
[12:27]Well, you can find it because it'll be my banking license, right?
[12:29]That'll be something that you can look up, probably.
[12:32]So whatever that is, it is.
[12:35]And I just...
[12:36]I don't remember when that is.
[12:37]I'm sorry.
[12:38]So, okay.
[12:40]So...
[12:40]And so, for example, I was doing really, really, really well.
[12:45]And so he was like, how do you do that?
[12:47]Why are you investing in, I don't know, Apple when nobody liked Apple?
[12:52]This is, you know, before Apple or Microsoft.
[12:55]I didn't know Bill Gates, so this is not related to him.
[12:59]But my family...
[13:00]Don't charge with insider cash.
[13:03]No, I'm not trying to suggest that.
[13:06]Oh, goodness, please, no.
[13:07]I had no...
[13:08]It was just a joke.
[13:09]Okay.
[13:10]Oh, yeah, no, all right.
[13:14]My...
[13:18]Going back to my family, my dad had given me an account when I was 12.
[13:23]And I had always an interest in business and finance.
[13:27]Not terribly sophisticated.
[13:30]I'm not suggesting that.
[13:32]And so I liked to trade.
[13:34]And so I did.
[13:36]And I did well.
[13:37]And so then I would tell him...
[13:38]I told him what I was doing.
[13:40]Now, whether he did or he didn't, he told me he matched me in some other accounts that he had.
[13:44]Because he did a lot of...
[13:46]My observation, to go back to what he did, I observed him personally and have recollection,
[13:52]personal recollection of him trading with money, a lot.
[13:59]Tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars.
[14:01]That was...
[14:03]That he was trading for other people or that was his own money?
[14:06]I want also to...
[14:08]Clarify something for you, or clarify or underline.
[14:13]Wexner was, in my opinion, his closest friend in this time period from when I met him in 91, right?
[14:22]All the way until, I don't know, because I wasn't that friendly with...
[14:32]Well, I did travel with Mr. Wexner, but Epstein told me that Wexner didn't want to be seen too much with me.
[14:42]Because of my family problems.
[14:46]You mean the problems that your father's company had?
[14:50]Yes.
[14:51]Embezzlement or allegations of...
[14:53]Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
[14:55]And now, actually, today, not contemporaneously, but today, I don't believe that that's even true.
[15:02]I think it was used as a means to not have me travel with him to Ohio or whatever.
[15:09]It was just a way to park.
[15:12]And I believe that now because within the discovery, there was a lot of...
[15:17]Well, not a lot, but there were some indications that he would actively tell other people to lie to me or conceal things from me.
[15:24]And that he never loved me and I wasn't his type.
[15:29]That's in the discovery somewhere.
[15:30]So, okay.
[15:33]So, the government had evidence that even as late as 2007,
[15:42]he paid you a lot of money.
[15:46]What was that?
[15:47]What was the money?
[15:47]Like several millions and millions of dollars in 2007.
[15:51]$7.4 million, I think.
[15:53]What was that for?
[15:54]Was that the helicopter?
[15:55]That's my question to you.
[15:56]Oh, sorry.
[15:56]I don't know.
[15:57]So, in 2007...
[16:00]I think that was probably the helicopter.
[16:01]That could have been the helicopter, the Sikorsky.
[16:05]Those big chunks like that, I don't personally have any memory of receiving a check.
[16:12]I don't have any memory of receiving a check from him for $7 million.
[16:16]I just don't.
[16:17]But I would have to...
[16:19]I know...
[16:20]So, the answer to your question, to be precise...
[16:23]Well, you would remember if it went into your pocket.
[16:25]I would remember if it went...
[16:26]He never paid me for services that you just described, $7 million for any nefarious reason.
[16:35]Yeah.
[16:36]I think I understand what you've said about being on the payroll and him helping you with businesses.
[16:41]Yeah.
[16:42]And giving you a lot of life things along the way.
[16:47]You travel with him.
[16:48]You ate with him.
[16:49]He's, you know...
[16:50]But there is these massive amounts of money, one-time payments that I...
[16:56]You'd have to trace that, right?
[16:58]So, I don't believe that came into my account or I had any control.
[17:01]I have no memory of that.
[17:02]I have no...
[17:03]Well, but if there's records that show up coming into your account, it sounds like what you're saying is that not putting aside your...
[17:10]You have no memory of...
[17:11]You have no memory of that money being yours.
[17:13]Like, you didn't...
[17:14]No.
[17:15]That money is not somewhere...
[17:16]No, I wouldn't be like, oh, yippee, let me go.
[17:17]I've got $7 million.
[17:18]I'm going to go buy myself a yacht.
[17:19]No.
[17:20]Or, I don't know, something else.
[17:22]Or move it to some other...
[17:24]No.
[17:25]I don't think...
[17:26]I don't think if you look...
[17:27]You'll have to check.
[17:29]Well, obviously, you will.
[17:32]I don't think you'll find that money moving in any...
[17:35]To any account other than mine or...
[17:37]It shouldn't show...
[17:38]I don't believe, anyway.
[17:39]As far as I...
[17:40]It wouldn't show me spending it.
[17:42]Right.
[17:43]Does that make sense?
[17:44]Okay.
[17:45]Yeah, that makes sense.
[17:46]I mean, I think if...
[17:47]I don't think there's any dispute by anybody, even your lawyers at trial, that that money
[17:53]went in.
[17:54]Oh.
[17:55]$7 million in when?
[17:56]What year?
[17:57]Well, there's several years.
[17:58]In 2007.
[17:59]And?
[18:00]In 2002, there was $5 million that you were paid in 2002.
[18:05]Oh.
[18:06]Well, I'd have to...
[18:07]I don't...
[18:08]I don't remember.
[18:09]But...
[18:10]So, there would be another large sum, but it wouldn't have come from him later.
[18:13]It had nothing to do...
[18:14]The biggest one was in 1999.
[18:17]There's over $18 million.
[18:20]$18.3 million.
[18:25]So, what...
[18:26]But you...
[18:27]But what you're saying, it sounds like...
[18:28]And then, if you don't know, we're going to...
[18:30]We can move on.
[18:31]But when we're talking about $18.3 million in 1999, $5 million in three years later
[18:37]in 2002, $7.4 million in 2007, that...
[18:42]Those...
[18:43]So, that money adds up to around $30 million.
[18:46]You were not paid that by Mr. Epstein, meaning that's not money you received for your benefit,
[18:51]even if it was put into your accounts.
[18:53]I don't believe any of that was my money.
[18:55]Now, I do...
[18:56]I just...
[18:57]Like I said, we did do these things with the cars.
[18:58]Yes.
[18:59]I understand that.
[19:00]I understand that.
[19:01]And we...
[19:02]As...
[19:03]But...
[19:04]I don't know if any of that money, some of it, if it moves, some of that may have
[19:07]come from the car or a house that was sold that I had an interest in with him.
[19:11]That's possible.
[19:12]But...
[19:13]But I don't think this money is mine.
[19:14]But also, the record should reflect, too, that there were times Ghislaine's name was
[19:18]used.
[19:19]For example, Air Ghislaine.
[19:20]Her name was in the name of the entity.
[19:21]It had nothing to do with her.
[19:22]And if you pulled signatures...
[19:23]Yeah.
[19:24]There's no...
[19:25]You know, my...
[19:26]What I'm trying to just make sure I...
[19:27]That I understand is that the idea that you were paid $30 million between 1999 and 2007,
[19:28]in a way, I don't understand.
[19:29]I don't understand.
[19:30]I don't understand.
[19:31]I don't understand.
[19:32]I don't understand.
[19:33]I don't understand.
[19:34]I don't understand.
[19:35]I don't understand.
[19:36]I don't understand.
[19:37]I don't understand.
[19:38]I don't understand.
[19:39]I don't understand.
[19:40]And that's the only...
[19:41]That's...
[19:42]I think the actual issue is that it exists for us, the American community, that all of
[19:43]us live under...
[19:44]That's...
[19:45]That's totally impossible.
[19:46]Nobody lives on that information money.
[19:47]Right?
[19:48]If you had...
[19:49]If you had a resource of some kind, if you could МУЗЫКА qué
[20:13]ño, and just be unassuming, if you could divide this money throughout the United States,
[20:19]it should be COSCO.
[20:21]Okay.
[20:21]Okay.
[20:22]Okay.
[20:22]Okay.
[20:22]Do you know Elon Musk?
[20:26]I do.
[20:27]And how did you meet Mr. Musk?
[20:29]I met him in, I don't remember the year,
[20:36]but it's going to be in 2010, 11, something like that, I think,
[20:44]if my memory serves.
[20:46]And I was at an event for Sergey Brin,
[20:53]the co-founder of Google,
[20:57]and Sergey had arranged for, it was for his birthday,
[21:03]and we were, a bunch of us,
[21:06]I don't even remember how many we were,
[21:08]but not many of us, maybe, if I say 40, I could be wrong.
[21:16]If it was 30 or 50, I don't remember, I'm sorry.
[21:19]Went to another friend's island,
[21:24]somebody called Mr. Bigotsi,
[21:26]in the Caribbean, and not with Epstein,
[21:30]he was not there, to celebrate Sergey's birthday.
[21:34]And we were there together for, I want to say,
[21:38]three or four days, something like that, in my memory.
[21:41]And Mr. Musk was a present for that.
[21:45]And that was the first time you met him, as far as you know?
[21:48]As far as I remember, yes.
[21:50]Did you meet, did you know his brother, Mr. Musk's brother?
[21:55]I don't know if I've ever met him.
[21:57]I know that he has a brother, but I don't think I met him.
[22:03]Aside from that time, in around 2010,
[22:07]on the island of the Caribbean for a couple of days,
[22:10]did you, have you seen, do you know Mr. Musk beyond that time?
[22:14]We met at, I was at the Oscars, and we met at the Oscars.
[22:19]What year was that, earlier or later?
[22:22]It was post that event, I believe.
[22:25]And do you know whether,
[22:27]Mr. Epstein knew Mr. Musk?
[22:29]I believe they did.
[22:30]And the only reason I say that is not from my memory,
[22:32]but because I saw, I think I saw,
[22:37]my memory is that in Discovery,
[22:39]they were communicating on email.
[22:42]So you have no personal knowledge of that?
[22:44]It's just what you've seen from the press or from Discovery?
[22:48]And I believe his brother as well, actually.
[22:51]Excuse me?
[22:52]Mr. Musk's brother as well.
[22:55]But I, I,
[22:57]like I said, my memory is not,
[22:59]it's not as good as I would like it to be.
[23:02]And I just want to say that.
[23:04]Do you, you mentioned, I think yesterday, in passing,
[23:09]not in passing, but as part of another answer,
[23:12]Andrew Cuomo?
[23:14]Yes.
[23:14]Did you know Mr. Cuomo?
[23:16]Well, only because he was married to Carrie.
[23:20]Yes, okay.
[23:21]And I think I knew his brother as well.
[23:24]He has a brother, right?
[23:25]He's on TV?
[23:27]What's his name?
[23:31]Right, Christopher Cuomo.
[23:32]Yeah, you mean the TV, the former TV anchor?
[23:35]Yes.
[23:35]Or the TV anchor, Chris Cuomo?
[23:36]Okay.
[23:37]So, but I would say just socially,
[23:40]I'm not close friends or anything,
[23:43]but because I was friends with Carrie,
[23:45]and I met him a few times,
[23:47]and I've certainly met his brother as well a few times.
[23:51]And the same questions that I asked about Mr. Musk,
[23:54]do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew,
[23:56]Andrew Cuomo, or Chris Cuomo, or Ms. Kennedy, your friend?
[24:03]Um, I don't think so.
[24:06]And so you never, you don't recall any of those three individuals
[24:11]like flying on Mr. Epstein's plane,
[24:13]or visiting him in Palm Beach, or at the island?
[24:15]No.
[24:17]Um, I think you mentioned former Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday,
[24:21]but if not, do you know Mr. Kerry, or no?
[24:24]I have met him, but I don't know.
[24:26]I don't know if Mr. Epstein ever met him.
[24:28]I met him at only, well, really,
[24:31]I can't even probably characterize that as a meeting,
[24:34]but I was very, very involved in the ocean work
[24:39]through the, you asked me yesterday about Terramar,
[24:42]and if I recall right,
[24:45]I met Mr., the Secretary, that way, through the ocean.
[24:49]But he wouldn't know who I am, I doubt.
[24:51]Do you know whether, well, do you know former Senator Ted Kennedy?
[24:59]Yes.
[24:59]Um, and does, is that through your own life, or through Mr. Epstein?
[25:05]My life.
[25:06]Do you know whether, um, Mr. Epstein knew Senator Kennedy?
[25:09]I don't believe so.
[25:11]And so for the folks we just talked about, so,
[25:14]former Secretary of State John Kerry, Ted Kennedy,
[25:17]um, did, you don't know whether Mr. Epstein knew him,
[25:21]so I take that to mean you have no recollection of them flying on his planes, or visiting him.
[25:26]Oh.
[25:26]Okay.
[25:27]Oh.
[25:27]Um.
[25:28]But, um, Bobby Kennedy knew him.
[25:36]Sorry, say that again about Bobby Kennedy?
[25:37]Bobby knew Mr. Epstein.
[25:39]How do you know that?
[25:40]Because we went on a trip together.
[25:43]We went to, um, dinosaur bone hunting in the Dakotas.
[25:53]When was that, you know, approximately, I'm not looking for an exact date, but when was that?
[25:59]That was early.
[26:00]That was in the early, well, let me back up.
[26:03]I knew, um,
[26:05]Bobby's wife, Mary.
[26:07]Pretty well, actually.
[26:09]And before he met her.
[26:11]And, just to help us, I know we're talking about a wide span of time, but what do you,
[26:17]when, when are you talking about, that you knew, um, Mr. Kennedy's wife before they
[26:24]were married.
[26:25]So when are we talking about those?
[26:26]Um, I, um, in nineteen, now you're right, I guess.
[26:32]Let's get my head straight.
[26:34]In?
[26:35]Yeah?
[26:35]Well, would this have been before you met Mr. Epstein?
[26:40]Yes.
[26:41]Or after?
[26:41]I met him before I met.
[26:43]So we're talking about the 1980s.
[26:45]Oh, yes.
[26:45]Yes, thank you.
[26:46]The 80s.
[26:47]Okay, so we're talking about the 1980s.
[26:49]And then...
[26:50]I had a very, very long-standing boyfriend.
[26:57]And his brother was dating Mary at the time.
[27:03]And we were all very good friends.
[27:04]And then Mr. Epstein...
[27:09]Did Mr. Epstein meet Bobby Kennedy through you?
[27:13]I don't think so.
[27:17]Because Mr. Epstein, surprisingly, everyone says everything happened through me.
[27:23]That's just not true.
[27:25]I mean, I think yesterday I explained that he had friends from London.
[27:29]And those were very...
[27:30]They were what the people would call fancy.
[27:34]They were fancy.
[27:34]Fancy people.
[27:36]But he had the same types of relationships before I met him in America.
[27:44]So when I met him, he was already Wexner, and he had Henry, and he had...
[27:51]I don't know if then he was in the Council of Foreign Relations,
[27:54]but he was friends with Ace.
[27:59]He was well-established.
[28:03]He didn't need me.
[28:04]And he was...
[28:04]Yeah, his Eva was a major model.
[28:09]So he had all these modeling connections and friends in that business long before I met him.
[28:19]And so the trip that you went on with Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy,
[28:24]was that in the 90s and 2000s?
[28:27]I think it was in the...
[28:28]It would have been in the...
[28:30]I want to say 93, 94.
[28:35]Okay.
[28:36]So a very long time ago.
[28:37]Very, very long time ago.
[28:38]A few years into your relationship.
[28:45]A few years into the time that you knew Mr. Epstein.
[28:47]Yes.
[28:48]I mean, I don't want to hold myself to the dates, because I really...
[28:51]No, no, I'm not holding you to dates.
[28:52]Because I really don't.
[28:53]I've said that a lot, because I appreciate we're talking about the 80s and 90s, and even the 2000s.
[28:58]I don't have anything to review.
[29:02]So I haven't had any ability to...
[29:05]Short of my legal material, obviously, which you can...
[29:08]No, I have, because I came with a boxwork.
[29:10]But short of that, I have nothing with which to refresh...
[29:13]Well, very limited stuff, I should say.
[29:15]I don't want to say nothing, to refresh my mind.
[29:17]I understand that.
[29:18]Do you have any recollection of Mr. Kennedy,
[29:22]of there being anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy
[29:24]and masseuses or young women on the trip you just talked about?
[29:32]I never saw anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy.
[29:36]Do you know whether he ever got a massage from one of them?
[29:39]Do you know whether he ever got a massage from one of the masseuses?
[29:40]Do you know either way?
[29:41]I do not.
[29:42]But not something you remember?
[29:44]I mean, absolutely not.
[29:46]I mean, yesterday, if I didn't make it clear, I will reiterate it.
[29:51]I never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate with a woman of any age.
[30:01]I never saw inappropriate...
[30:03]Now, I'm not...
[30:04]I'm not going to say, you know, hands or...
[30:09]That, to me, is not inappropriate.
[30:11]Now, if somebody's inappropriate, and mine may be different,
[30:14]but I'm not talking about anything that resembles the accusations that were discussed here.
[30:22]So, that would be a flat no to any man.
[30:28]Did your or Mr. Epstein's relationship with Bobby Kennedy continue into the 2000s, as far as you know?
[30:34]I would say yes.
[30:39]Well, mine, yes.
[30:41]Yours, with you?
[30:41]With me, for sure.
[30:43]And do you know whether...
[30:44]Mr. Epstein and Mr. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, continue to have relationships into the 2000s?
[30:51]I have no personal knowledge of that.
[30:52]I mean, I would...
[30:53]Because...
[30:55]Yeah, no personal knowledge.
[30:56]Another thing is that everyone puts us together like a monolith.
[31:00]He literally had a separate life from me.
[31:02]I literally had a separate life from him.
[31:05]Now, did they say?
[31:06]Well, of course they did.
[31:07]I'm not crazy, but he kept a lot to himself, and he didn't like to share.
[31:12]He was not a sharer.
[31:13]Well, at least not with me.
[31:14]Mr. Epstein?
[31:14]Mr. Epstein didn't share, you're saying?
[31:15]Not with me, no.
[31:16]Did you...
[31:17]Do you know somebody named Cheryl Mills?
[31:22]I do.
[31:23]She used to work in the White House as a lawyer.
[31:24]Yes, I do, yes.
[31:24]How do you know Ms. Mills?
[31:25]I met Ms. Mills through President Clinton.
[31:29]Do you remember, generally, the time frame that you met her?
[31:34]I do, actually.
[31:36]I'm sorry, I'm just trying to remember how to get my dates right.
[31:51]I can't get my dates right.
[31:56]It's something...
[31:57]It's going to be in the early 2000s.
[32:00]Okay.
[32:01]So I don't recall.
[32:04]I think I wanted to say 2002.
[32:06]So it was after President Clinton left office.
[32:10]Oh, yes.
[32:11]And so it was in the 2000s.
[32:13]Definitely.
[32:14]And how did you meet her?
[32:15]What were the circumstances in which you met Ms. Mills?
[32:19]I went on a trip with the President to South America.
[32:23]With which President?
[32:24]Oh, sorry, President Clinton.
[32:26]Yeah, okay.
[32:27]Just...
[32:27]Sorry.
[32:28]I just wanted to make sure it was clear.
[32:30]Okay, so you went on a trip to...
[32:32]To where?
[32:33]Latin America.
[32:35]And who...
[32:37]And so Ms. Mills was on that trip?
[32:38]She was.
[32:39]And President Clinton was on that trip?
[32:41]She was.
[32:41]Who else was on that trip?
[32:43]Doug Band.
[32:46]Who worked with President Clinton?
[32:48]Yes.
[32:49]And was Mr. Epstein?
[32:52]No.
[32:53]And what was the purpose of that trip?
[32:57]Um...
[32:57]Well...
[32:59]Uh...
[33:00]The President...
[33:00]The President had been...
[33:01]I mean, I...
[33:04]The President met with...
[33:08]I can't even remember all the...
[33:09]I don't know...
[33:10]Presidents and...
[33:11]We were in Exeter...
[33:12]But was this part of President Clinton's work
[33:14]after he left office with his foundation?
[33:18]Or was...
[33:18]Meaning like...
[33:19]I don't think the foundation...
[33:19]Was it something for him or was it...
[33:21]I don't remember when the Clinton Global Initiative started.
[33:25]So if you date me...
[33:26]If you give me that date,
[33:27]I can tell you if it was pre or post.
[33:29]Because without that,
[33:30]I can't pin the...
[33:32]The reason.
[33:33]Do you remember what it was for or not?
[33:34]No, I don't recall.
[33:36]I mean, I don't...
[33:36]Yeah, that's...
[33:36]Don't overthink or underthink the reason for my questions.
[33:40]I don't...
[33:41]I don't have any idea why you went on that trip.
[33:43]So I don't know an answer that I'm keeping from you.
[33:45]No, I'm just trying to be as accurate as possible
[33:47]and give you the information that you need.
[33:49]Why would you...
[33:50]Do you remember why you were invited to go?
[33:52]Like, were you...
[33:52]Were you friends with somebody?
[33:54]What was your role going on that trip?
[33:56]I didn't have a role.
[34:00]So, do you remember...
[34:01]Why...
[34:03]Do you remember who invited you to go?
[34:07]If...
[34:08]Probably Doug Band.
[34:12]And how did you know Doug?
[34:16]Because Doug, again, was back with Philip Levine.
[34:23]And do you know whether he had a relationship with Mr. Epstein?
[34:26]Who?
[34:27]Doug.
[34:28]I...
[34:29]I don't know.
[34:31]I mean, nothing.
[34:32]I don't believe there was any relationship
[34:34]other than I helped.
[34:37]Well, without...
[34:38]Without me, I don't think there would have been those flights
[34:39]because I was the one who asked Epstein
[34:43]to provide the plane for...
[34:46]Well, certainly I remember the one to Africa, of course,
[34:50]that big trip.
[34:53]And I thought it was an honour and a privilege
[34:57]to be part of something so amazing
[35:00]and to have an opportunity to spend time with a man
[35:05]that I found truly extraordinary.
[35:07]Mm-hmm.
[35:08]And I...
[35:09]Please, I don't mean it in any other way
[35:11]other than there's a form of fantastic ex-president.
[35:14]I don't...
[35:15]So, I was asking around the question,
[35:17]but I was asking, like,
[35:18]were you basically asked to go
[35:20]because you were kind of responsible for the plane?
[35:24]Not responsible is the wrong word.
[35:25]Not that.
[35:26]They use you...
[35:27]They were able to use you to make sure that they could...
[35:29]You helped them get Mr. Epstein's plane for the trip?
[35:32]No, I don't even know if when I was on that...
[35:34]In fact, I think...
[35:37]I think that trip,
[35:38]I'm not even sure that Epstein had met the president.
[35:41]Okay.
[35:42]I think this is...
[35:43]I'm right, and I think I am.
[35:45]I think that trip happened when Epstein and Clinton
[35:48]had never even...
[35:49]Not that they'd never met
[35:50]because Epstein had gone to the White House,
[35:51]but they had not met.
[35:54]I'd never asked Epstein for the plane then
[35:55]because they'd never met, and it would be weird.
[35:57]But they met because of me,
[35:59]and the plane was because of me.
[36:01]But that trip was the first, I think,
[36:05]the first trip I took with the ex-president.
[36:08]And I don't believe Epstein and he had met.
[36:12]And we're talking a time period
[36:14]when I was trying to leave.
[36:19]Not very successfully, obviously,
[36:20]but I was branching out on my own
[36:23]and being more independent of Mr. Epstein
[36:27]and trying to...
[36:32]I had all kinds of businesses that I was into.
[36:34]I was trying to start the first telehealth medicine
[36:37]with the Cleveland...
[36:38]Cleveland Clinic.
[36:39]I mean, I'm not going to bore you
[36:40]because I don't think that's what you guys are interested in.
[36:43]But those were the sorts of things
[36:45]that I was looking for him to finance
[36:47]so that I could stop being, you know,
[36:49]general manager of a hotel.
[36:52]Did you...
[36:53]So did you take other trips with some
[36:59]or all of those individuals
[37:01]kind of without Mr. Epstein in later years?
[37:04]Like, you said that was the first time
[37:05]that you had kind of been on something like that
[37:08]and it was an honor.
[37:09]And you were spending time with former President Clinton
[37:12]and others.
[37:13]Were there other...
[37:14]Over the years, did you do that more than once?
[37:17]Yes.
[37:19]We'll talk about those.
[37:22]Like, multiple times?
[37:23]Like, too many to count?
[37:24]Or three or four times?
[37:25]Like, how many times?
[37:26]A lot.
[37:27]I went on a lot of trips.
[37:30]Now, I don't recall all of them.
[37:32]Not because I'm trying to be evasive or anything,
[37:36]but I just don't remember them all.
[37:39]And after a while,
[37:40]you know in the incredible job that you have,
[37:43]all of you,
[37:43]that when you're so high-pressured
[37:45]and you're spending so much time
[37:47]with extraordinary people like you do
[37:49]with President Trump,
[37:51]it can blur.
[37:54]It just does.
[37:56]And there's a few things that stand out
[37:58]because at the end,
[37:59]it's all just extraordinary.
[38:00]There's cars and sirens and presidents.
[38:06]It's like, well, okay.
[38:08]So...
[38:09]I understand.
[38:12]But talk...
[38:13]So don't give me...
[38:14]Understand you can't give specific numbers.
[38:17]What...
[38:17]Describe more about kind of your...
[38:18]That part of your life and your relationship.
[38:21]I'm using relationship.
[38:23]You don't like relationship.
[38:23]And you're...
[38:24]Sorry.
[38:25]And you're...
[38:26]My employer.
[38:27]Yes.
[38:28]So just describe what you were doing
[38:31]with those individuals.
[38:35]So when I say those individuals,
[38:36]I'm talking about former President Clinton,
[38:39]Doug,
[38:39]other folks that worked with him.
[38:42]Yes, there were loads of them.
[38:44]And all of them.
[38:45]You know the team.
[38:45]I don't need to give you all the names.
[38:47]You have them at your fingertips.
[38:49]And I can confirm.
[38:51]If you give me names,
[38:52]I'll say yes
[38:53]because they're not all going to pop into my head.
[38:55]Right.
[38:55]Okay.
[38:55]So I started spending a lot of time...
[39:00]I don't want to characterize that.
[39:01]I started spending time with the former president
[39:04]and with Doug and his team.
[39:08]And the...
[39:09]I had no purpose, really,
[39:13]other than I had...
[39:16]I obviously offered something.
[39:20]I don't know.
[39:21]Ideas of...
[39:23]I don't know.
[39:25]Anyway.
[39:26]And he started to travel.
[39:31]I don't remember if the first trip was Africa
[39:33]or how it went.
[39:35]But at some point,
[39:36]I think there was actually two trips,
[39:38]but I'm not sure.
[39:38]So it was to Europe
[39:40]and then to...
[39:44]Africa.
[39:46]I think maybe it was all one trip.
[39:47]And at some point,
[39:50]Mr. Epstein said he didn't want to go on the trip
[39:54]and he was going somewhere else.
[39:58]And he just left.
[39:59]And I was like, well, okay.
[40:01]And so I ended up doing the whole trip
[40:03]without Mr. Epstein or his plane.
[40:08]And when you were traveling with them,
[40:13]what were the purposes?
[40:14]What were the trips?
[40:15]Like, is this one...
[40:17]I think these were all...
[40:18]I think actually it was the AIDS.
[40:20]It was one of the primary ones
[40:22]for his AIDS foundation
[40:24]when he was working to do that.
[40:28]And there was always a humanitarian side to the trips.
[40:34]And we went to Egypt.
[40:36]And that was...
[40:38]Oh, yeah.
[40:40]So there...
[40:41]So it sounds like you're describing one...
[40:44]Right now, one trip
[40:45]were with lots of stops.
[40:47]It could be.
[40:47]But I have a feeling that I went on other trips.
[40:50]But I can't remember.
[40:51]When you...
[40:52]When you went on this...
[40:54]I went to London.
[40:55]To London, okay.
[40:56]I don't know if that's the same trip.
[40:58]When you went on these trips,
[41:00]were you always on Mr. Epstein's plane?
[41:04]Or did you sometimes accompany them on a different plane?
[41:07]Correct, yes.
[41:09]How many were on Mr. Epstein's plane?
[41:12]Again, I'm not holding to exact, but...
[41:13]That was a full...
[41:14]That was packed.
[41:15]Because there was a lot of Secret Service.
[41:17]It took all the Secret Service as well.
[41:19]So it was...
[41:20]Whatever the detail is for Secret Service,
[41:22]it was a lot.
[41:25]And on how many occasions,
[41:27]besides the trip you just described,
[41:29]were there other times when they used...
[41:32]When President Clinton and the folks he was with
[41:35]used Mr. Epstein's plane?
[41:37]I think it was...
[41:39]There was twice, maybe.
[41:40]There was that.
[41:41]But it will reflect on the logs.
[41:42]There won't be anything that's not on the logs
[41:44]that you have already.
[41:45]Were you, by the way,
[41:46]responsible for the logs in any way?
[41:48]Like, you've seen the logs and they're public
[41:49]and you had them in discovery,
[41:51]but over the years when you were working with
[41:53]or for Mr. Epstein,
[41:55]did you have access to the logs?
[41:58]No.
[41:59]Never.
[42:00]The pilots, the logbook was their personal logbook.
[42:04]I never even saw them have it.
[42:05]I never saw them fill it in.
[42:07]And then there was a second set of logs,
[42:11]the flight manifests.
[42:15]And I never saw those either.
[42:16]I was...
[42:17]I was never allowed, I suppose,
[42:19]because they didn't want me to see.
[42:25]Do you know...
[42:26]So, do you know whether Mr. Epstein
[42:30]had a separate relationship with President Clinton
[42:34]different from the way you just described?
[42:36]So, different than being with him
[42:39]with respect to his foundation or something like this?
[42:41]I would say no.
[42:45]When's the last time that you...
[42:48]went on a trip or saw President Clinton?
[42:51]I was in...
[42:53]It was late 2000 and...
[43:06]I don't know, 16, 17, 8, something.
[43:10]It was in Los Angeles.
[43:12]And what was the purpose of that meeting?
[43:14]I don't...
[43:14]He was hosting something or he was at an event
[43:17]and I was in LA and I had dinner with him.
[43:21]Did you ever meet Secretary Clinton, Hillary Clinton?
[43:32]Yes.
[43:32]Yes.
[43:34]When did you meet her?
[43:37]I want to say...
[43:44]Again, please don't hold me to it,
[43:46]but I want to say that it was on a flight
[43:52]that came from the island, from...
[43:56]Not from the island, from the Nantucket
[43:58]or Martha's Vineyard back to New York,
[44:01]is what I think.
[44:03]I might be wrong.
[44:04]Okay, so an East Coast island like Nantucket
[44:08]or something like this?
[44:09]Yes, yes, not...
[44:09]The ex-president never came to the island.
[44:13]And did you...
[44:14]Is that the only time that you met Hillary Clinton?
[44:17]No.
[44:18]I went to the house in Chappaqua a few times.
[44:21]And why did you go to the house?
[44:23]I was invited.
[44:25]Just to see President Clinton or Hillary Clinton or both?
[44:31]Yeah, I mean, as a friend, not for...
[44:35]There was no...
[44:36]I don't remember any reason.
[44:38]I either was...
[44:39]Somehow I communicated that was in coming,
[44:42]driving back past Chappaqua or if they were home and stopping.
[44:45]I know it sounds a little flippant,
[44:47]but it could have been even something as...
[44:50]And do you know whether Mr. Epstein had new
[44:54]or had any sort of business dealings
[44:56]or associated with Hillary Clinton?
[44:59]I would say no.
[45:01]Did you ever see them together?
[45:03]No.
[45:04]Did...
[45:05]Do you know whether Mr. Epstein ever did any business dealings?
[45:09]Any business transactions with the Clintons?
[45:12]I would...
[45:13]Well, I'm not sure I can...
[45:16]I'm not sure I had a quite...
[45:18]I don't know the answer to that strictly
[45:19]because I was...
[45:22]I was part of the beginning process of the Clinton Global Initiative.
[45:29]And that was something that I helped with.
[45:34]And Epstein may have helped me help them.
[45:40]And in that context,
[45:41]he may well have involved...
[45:43]involved himself,
[45:44]but only in the context of
[45:47]something that I was trying to do.
[45:50]So, when you say involved himself,
[45:53]meaning, like, give money to the Clinton Global Initiative
[45:57]or something like this?
[45:58]Well, so, there's that.
[46:00]I think he did do that.
[46:02]And that, I believe, the money that he may have given
[46:04]could have been independent of me.
[46:06]But, um...
[46:08]I think it's just easier if I just tell you how it happened
[46:10]rather than...
[46:11]It's otherwise a sad, sad story.
[46:13]It's funky.
[46:15]I went to Davos with the former president.
[46:19]And, um, I, uh...
[46:23]Have you been to Davos?
[46:27]In what?
[46:28]Have you been to Davos?
[46:29]I have not.
[46:29]Okay, well, you know it's a...
[46:31]You know what it is, right?
[46:32]Okay, so...
[46:34]And I was...
[46:36]I thought the former president should have his own Davos
[46:41]because it would be...
[46:44]And they had...
[46:45]It turned out that...
[46:46]It turned out that...
[46:46]They had been thinking about it anyway.
[46:49]And so we were talking about it.
[46:51]And, you know, it's a very heavy lift
[46:53]to get something like that to go.
[46:55]And I was friendly with, um...
[46:58]One of the people who had...
[47:01]Um, I don't know if he was at the beginning of Davos or...
[47:05]But he was running Davos.
[47:06]It was his...
[47:07]I don't know how to describe his actual role at Davos.
[47:10]And I had conversations with him about what did he think.
[47:13]You know, just because I was having dinner with him.
[47:16]Um, about if Clinton could get something like that to go,
[47:20]what was his thoughts.
[47:21]And he was very, very enthusiastic.
[47:23]I mean, he was like,
[47:23]that's just an incredible idea.
[47:25]So I put them together.
[47:27]Who's...
[47:27]What's that person's name?
[47:28]Do you remember?
[47:29]I knew you were going to ask me.
[47:30]Okay.
[47:31]Um, I can...
[47:31]I can...
[47:33]Um...
[47:33]I just...
[47:34]You said...
[47:35]I didn't know if you knew his...
[47:36]If you remember his name.
[47:37]I do, but I just...
[47:38]Can't remember his name.
[47:39]Okay.
[47:39]It will come to me.
[47:40]It may come to me tomorrow,
[47:42]but eventually these things, like, surface.
[47:44]Like, in the middle of the night,
[47:45]I was scribbling names.
[47:46]Yeah.
[47:46]That I couldn't remember from yesterday.
[47:48]Um, okay.
[47:49]But his name will come to me.
[47:51]And if not, we can find it.
[47:52]So...
[47:52]So you...
[47:54]When the...
[47:55]Just still stay...
[47:56]Staying on your relationship with...
[47:59]Sorry.
[48:00]The...
[48:00]Your association with the Clintons.
[48:03]Um...
[48:04]You were part of the ramp-up
[48:06]or the start-up of the Clinton Global Initiative
[48:08]and helping them and supporting that effort.
[48:11]I was.
[48:12]I...
[48:12]I would say very important...
[48:14]Very central to that, yeah.
[48:18]Mr.
[48:18]Epstein,
[48:19]was he part of the work around that
[48:24]or just in support of you?
[48:29]He supported me to help them,
[48:31]but then I think he may have tried to use that
[48:34]to insert himself in some way.
[48:36]That would not have surprised me at all.
[48:38]And I know that he was annoying.
[48:42]And sometimes I could catch him on the phone
[48:44]and he wouldn't always agree with what I wanted to do.
[48:46]And I was like,
[48:46]it's not your idea.
[48:48]I don't really care what you think.
[48:49]But that didn't go over so well.
[48:52]Um...
[48:53]And...
[48:55]I just want to say,
[48:56]it wasn't my idea for his CGA.
[48:58]I didn't...
[48:58]It wasn't?
[48:59]Say it again?
[48:59]It was not my idea.
[49:00]They had had that idea before.
[49:02]I just helped bring key personnel to...
[49:04]You're saying the idea of President Clinton
[49:06]kind of having his own Davos-like...
[49:08]I'm not...
[49:08]I'm not owning...
[49:09]I didn't...
[49:09]That's not...
[49:10]Understood.
[49:10]No, I'm just...
[49:11]I don't want to...
[49:11]I don't want to try to elevate myself
[49:13]in any form of importance here.
[49:14]No, I understand.
[49:15]Okay.
[49:16]Um...
[49:16]Did you go to Davos with President Clinton
[49:19]more than once or just once?
[49:24]Once for sure.
[49:25]And I think maybe twice.
[49:26]But I don't remember.
[49:29]Um...
[49:29]Did...
[49:31]And you're not...
[49:32]I think you said...
[49:33]You don't...
[49:35]You're not aware of President Clinton
[49:37]ever going to the island.
[49:39]He never...
[49:39]Absolutely never went.
[49:40]And I can be sure of that
[49:41]because there's no way he would have gone...
[49:43]I don't believe there's any way
[49:45]that he would have gone to the island
[49:46]had I not been there.
[49:47]Because I don't believe he had
[49:49]an independent friendship, if you will,
[49:52]with Epstein.
[49:52]Did they speak?
[49:54]Did he...
[49:54]Yes.
[49:54]But that's very different
[49:56]from going to spend time on...
[49:58]And plus, the story as told
[50:00]is so patently absurd
[50:03]that I flew him in the helicopter.
[50:05]I am a helicopter pilot.
[50:07]That is true.
[50:07]But the notion of me flying
[50:09]an ex-president on a machine
[50:11]terrified me.
[50:13]I would never even take that responsibility.
[50:15]Can you imagine?
[50:16]Yeah, no.
[50:17]I'm not...
[50:18]I'm...
[50:18]No.
[50:19]Did you ever go with President Clinton
[50:22]to any of Epstein...
[50:24]Mr. Epstein's properties?
[50:27]So, like, New Mexico,
[50:29]Palm Beach,
[50:30]or in New York?
[50:31]I have no memory of him
[50:35]in any of those places.
[50:37]When you were in London
[50:38]with President Clinton,
[50:39]did you ever go to your flat?
[50:44]I don't think he did.
[50:47]I don't think so
[50:48]because it's like...
[50:50]You wouldn't even be able
[50:52]to carry all his secret service with him.
[50:55]I don't think so.
[50:56]No.
[50:56]Okay.
[50:57]Do you know...
[51:02]We talked a little about
[51:03]the Duchess of York,
[51:05]Sarah Ferguson, yesterday.
[51:09]Did...
[51:10]When's the last time you...
[51:13]Like, when's the last time you saw her?
[51:17]Like, were you with her,
[51:21]hanging out with her,
[51:22]socializing with her
[51:23]in the 90s, 2000s, both?
[51:26]She's...
[51:27]Well...
[51:28]Um...
[51:30]I don't know if she liked me very much.
[51:41]I think my friendship
[51:43]with her ex-husband,
[51:46]sometimes she really did like me,
[51:52]and sometimes she didn't.
[51:54]So maybe a frenemy?
[51:55]I don't know.
[51:57]It was always friendly
[51:58]when we were together,
[51:59]but I think that there was
[52:00]some latent hostility.
[52:03]Is that something you've heard
[52:04]since everything came out,
[52:06]or along the way you felt that way?
[52:07]No, that's how I felt.
[52:08]That is a characterization of myself.
[52:10]That's how I felt about her.
[52:12]Um, I would never...
[52:14]I was always friendly with her.
[52:16]I mean, she's...
[52:16]I mean...
[52:18]I've seen her many, many times.
[52:21]And she's also super, super close
[52:23]with other people
[52:24]that we were very good friends with
[52:26]in England.
[52:27]I think that, um...
[52:31]I think that she liked Mr. Epstein.
[52:35]What do you think, though?
[52:37]My female intuition.
[52:43]Oh, it's possible that there's things...
[52:51]Well, I know...
[52:51]That's not possible.
[52:52]I know...
[52:53]that there is discovery,
[52:54]but I don't recall.
[52:56]But I think she had a thing for him.
[53:00]Did, um...
[53:01]There's some actors
[53:04]or some folks from Hollywood
[53:06]that I want to ask you about
[53:08]just to understand
[53:09]whether you knew them
[53:10]or Mr. Epstein knew them.
[53:12]Chris Tucker?
[53:13]Yes.
[53:13]How did you know Mr. Tucker?
[53:15]I think only from that flight to Africa.
[53:18]But I do think that they met.
[53:20]You say that flight to Africa,
[53:21]the one we were just talking about
[53:22]with President Clinton?
[53:23]Yes.
[53:23]Okay.
[53:24]Sorry.
[53:24]Sorry, go ahead.
[53:25]Yep.
[53:26]But I also think that
[53:27]they kept a little bit in touch
[53:29]and I think they met
[53:32]or I have a memory of him
[53:34]maybe in L.A.
[53:35]I don't know.
[53:36]I think they sort of loosely stayed in touch.
[53:38]I wouldn't...
[53:39]I don't think it...
[53:40]I don't know.
[53:40]I don't know how to say that.
[53:42]Do you know Mr. Tucker
[53:43]besides that flight?
[53:46]No.
[53:47]And do you know whether...
[53:50]When you say you think that
[53:51]they kept in touch,
[53:52]you mean you think that
[53:53]Mr. Epstein and Mr. Tucker...
[53:54]They may have.
[53:56]I didn't.
[53:57]But he might have.
[53:58]I'm not sure.
[54:00]Kevin Spacey?
[54:02]I know him also from that same flight.
[54:06]Aside from that flight,
[54:07]do you know him from any other thing?
[54:09]No.
[54:10]Naomi Campbell?
[54:11]Yes, I do know Naomi.
[54:13]And I knew her before I met Mr. Epstein
[54:17]and Mr...
[54:19]Do you know whether Mr. Epstein
[54:24]separately knew Ms. Campbell?
[54:27]I think he probably met her through me.
[54:31]That I imagine.
[54:33]And so for those three,
[54:37]Mr. Tucker, Mr. Spacey, and Ms. Campbell,
[54:40]did they ever travel to any of Mr. Epstein's properties?
[54:45]The island or New Mexico?
[54:47]Not Mr. Tucker.
[54:49]Well, not to my knowledge,
[54:50]Mr. Tucker or Mr. Spacey.
[54:54]Naomi Campbell may have.
[54:56]To where?
[54:58]She may have gone...
[54:59]Well, she certainly...
[55:00]Well, I believe she visited him in Palm Beach.
[55:05]And I believe she may have gone to the island.
[55:07]And she may have gone to see his house in New York.
[55:10]Whether she went to New Mexico or Paris as well, maybe.
[55:14]They were friends.
[55:15]Or friendly.
[55:16]Were you...
[55:18]What you just said, she may have,
[55:20]were you on those trips?
[55:22]I don't have any independent memory of that,
[55:25]so I'm not sure.
[55:27]I don't think so.
[55:27]I don't think so.
[55:27]I don't think so.
[55:29]Do you know...
[55:30]Her relationship, her friendship, her...
[55:33]Please, you're making me use your word.
[55:35]Her...
[55:36]Her...
[55:38]Friendship, whatever, with Mr. Epstein was independent of me.
[55:42]Okay.
[55:43]But you also had a separate friendship with her.
[55:46]I did.
[55:46]Before you met Mr. Epstein.
[55:48]I did.
[55:48]Okay.
[55:50]Larry Summers, the former Secretary of the Treasury,
[55:53]did you know that person?
[55:54]I did, yes.
[55:55]How?
[55:56]I met Mr. Summers.
[55:57]Summers through Mr. Epstein.
[56:00]And the same question, just generally time period?
[56:03]Are you talking about early 2000s, 90s, after that?
[56:08]I honestly really don't know.
[56:11]I did want to say something I forgot,
[56:13]that there was yesterday,
[56:15]you asked me about Mr. Epstein's properties.
[56:17]He had a rental in Boston as well,
[56:20]but not for very long,
[56:21]but it was another place that I had to put together,
[56:24]and I only went with him once,
[56:26]and he would go,
[56:27]and he would go there independently of me.
[56:29]I would not go with him.
[56:31]Was that in the 90s?
[56:33]I think it was, yes.
[56:36]Mr. Summers, do you know what his relationship was with Mr. Epstein?
[56:43]Business, personal, both, or don't you know?
[56:46]I think he spoke to Mr. Epstein about business a lot,
[56:49]but I think they were friends.
[56:51]They were friendly.
[56:52]Do you know whether Mr. Summers ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes
[56:56]to any event?
[56:57]The properties that Mr. Epstein owned?
[56:59]He may have, but I don't think if he did,
[57:01]I was on any of the flights.
[57:03]I mean, there's other issues.
[57:05]I mean, I went, I traveled so, so much,
[57:07]that I really, the flights just blur.
[57:11]I understand.
[57:13]George Soros?
[57:15]I don't think he knew him.
[57:16]I did, but I don't think he did.
[57:18]I don't think...
[57:18]How did you know Mr. Soros?
[57:19]I was friends with his kids.
[57:22]What, which kids?
[57:25]John, and I can't think.
[57:31]Who?
[57:38]I would not say.
[57:41]I met him, but just socially,
[57:44]and he may not remember even having met me.
[57:47]I was excited to meet him.
[57:48]When are you thinking, when would you have met him?
[57:50]If I met him, I think it was either at an event,
[57:53]or at his kids', they wouldn't have been at his house.
[57:56]An event, I think.
[57:57]I think I actually know in the Hamptons I met him.
[58:00]He was staying at somebody's house, if my memory serves.
[58:04]And what was your relationship?
[58:06]How did you know his kids?
[58:09]I was out and about in New York a lot.
[58:13]So just socially?
[58:16]Just socially, yes.
[58:18]And, yeah, just socially, I think.
[58:22]Do you know whether Mr. Soros or his kids ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes?
[58:26]I don't think so.
[58:27]And ever visit either the island or New Mexico or Paris?
[58:31]No, I don't think so.
[58:32]No.
[58:37]So, we tried to identify names that have come up either publicly
[58:44]or in other lawsuits.
[58:48]Are there any names that come to mind that we haven't?
[58:53]We've talked about a lot of names.
[58:55]Are there some folks that you think we've forgotten to ask you about?
[58:59]Well, you asked me about names, and I have some names,
[59:02]and I just want to give you some context for the names as well.
[59:05]Sure.
[59:06]So, we talked about Elizabeth Johnson yesterday.
[59:09]She had a boyfriend, and he was Frederick Fekai, the hairdresser.
[59:13]And he and Epstein were friendly, very friendly.
[59:17]And then what time period are you talking about?
[59:21]Like 90s or 2000s or both?
[59:30]I think the 2000s, actually, for that.
[59:33]You can date that because from when he...
[59:36]I think he probably knew Frederick before he dated Elizabeth, but...
[59:42]And when you say they were very friendly, did they travel together?
[59:47]I don't know if they traveled together, but...
[59:50]I mean, Epstein didn't go out very much.
[59:52]Well, I mean, he did go out, but not...
[59:54]And sometimes if he did, I think he would go out and maybe see Frederick.
[59:59]And then there was...
[1:00:01]I mean, he had a bunch of guys that he would...
[1:00:06]I would know that he would see or meet, but...
[1:00:10]He really...
[1:00:11]I guess now I'm not so...
[1:00:12]He had new friends.
[1:00:13]I don't know, but...
[1:00:15]Okay.
[1:00:16]What other names?
[1:00:17]Okay, so...
[1:00:19]Henry Cherecki, who had an island near his...
[1:00:23]Henry was a financier.
[1:00:25]He was the guy who cornered the silver market back in the day.
[1:00:28]He had an island in the Caribbean near...
[1:00:31]Yeah, he had British Virgin Islands.
[1:00:33]And there was Branson's Island there.
[1:00:35]Now, I know that there's an allegation that they met.
[1:00:38]I think...
[1:00:41]I think I remember that I went to Richard Branson's Island with Mr. Epstein.
[1:00:46]And maybe he went another time.
[1:00:49]But I don't...
[1:00:50]I wouldn't characterize Richard Branson and him as friends, but he did go.
[1:00:54]And I think I went with him.
[1:00:56]Do you know whether Mr. Branson ever came to Mr. Epstein's Island?
[1:01:00]If he did, I was not there.
[1:01:01]Okay.
[1:01:03]Okay.
[1:01:04]Sorry, but it's possible.
[1:01:05]Understood.
[1:01:06]I wanted to...
[1:01:07]Who else?
[1:01:08]Marvin Minsky.
[1:01:12]He had a group of scientists that he was very, very friendly with.
[1:01:16]They were all centered around Harvard.
[1:01:18]So, I remember him, Martin Novak, who's a mathematician, Steven Jay Gould.
[1:01:28]I don't know if Steven Jay Gould came through the Harvard angle, but I know that there was...
[1:01:34]He would...
[1:01:36]Epstein would have dinners at the house that I was tasked to organize.
[1:01:42]And the scientists were a very major component of that.
[1:01:46]They weren't social dinners as much as they were scientific dinners.
[1:01:49]He would discuss.
[1:01:50]He would discuss.
[1:01:51]But if you were in the area of brain cognition, he would invite them to the house.
[1:01:56]And they would come, all of them.
[1:02:01]Any name you can name me, they would be there.
[1:02:08]So, let's talk about that top, that relation, those associations or relationships you have
[1:02:16]with the mathematicians and with Harvard.
[1:02:19]And I think with MIT, to some extent, as well.
[1:02:21]For sure, MIT, too.
[1:02:22]Yeah.
[1:02:23]From what you observed, what's the reason behind him having...
[1:02:33]Developing those ties with Harvard, with MIT, and with certain professors and others
[1:02:38]associated with those institutions?
[1:02:40]He really was profoundly interested in that area of science and in the brain and in...
[1:02:49]I mean, if you were in Steven Jay Gould or...
[1:02:51]The major scientist on happiness.
[1:02:56]I mean, it came, I believe, from a genuine area of interest.
[1:03:00]Not from anything...
[1:03:02]And how did he become friends with them?
[1:03:09]How was he able to spend time with them?
[1:03:11]Meaning, did he donate to the university and then they were kind of...
[1:03:17]It was mandatory fun for them?
[1:03:18]Or did he have relations with them where he would, you know...
[1:03:21]I don't know...
[1:03:22]Host them or what?
[1:03:23]I don't know if the chicken or the egg came first.
[1:03:25]Okay.
[1:03:26]But when I met him first, I mean, he was already doing a lot of this stuff.
[1:03:31]This is not...
[1:03:32]I've read, so this is why I'm saying this.
[1:03:35]I was not responsible for these...
[1:03:37]For this area of interest.
[1:03:39]I mean, I certainly...
[1:03:40]Sorry, just to balance a second before it slips my mind and I leave something out.
[1:03:46]There was an institute in New Mexico called...
[1:03:50]Institute of...
[1:03:56]It's very famous.
[1:03:58]We're not talking Alamos.
[1:04:00]Anyway, all right.
[1:04:01]There's a very famous institute in New Mexico.
[1:04:03]You can look it up.
[1:04:04]It'll come to you the minute you put it in your computer.
[1:04:06]And there had some of the biggest brains ever.
[1:04:10]Those...
[1:04:11]That relationship came through me.
[1:04:13]So I...
[1:04:14]That's me.
[1:04:15]And that is because my father was one of the major scientific...
[1:04:23]Hit up my family fortune when I had one.
[1:04:26]Came from scientific publishing.
[1:04:29]And when...
[1:04:30]It started from the thing that you were asking me yesterday.
[1:04:35]My father was in the Second World War, I told you.
[1:04:38]And he won the military cross.
[1:04:40]And then he actually did become...
[1:04:41]He was part of intelligence back in the war.
[1:04:43]And his job was to interrogate German scientists and prisoners of war.
[1:04:52]And then he had...
[1:04:53]Parlayed into a business with Springer Verlag.
[1:04:55]And then into Pergamon Press, which was the scientific journals business.
[1:05:01]And he had an interest.
[1:05:03]He believed that its knowledge is what would prevent war.
[1:05:08]And the biggest scientific discoveries...
[1:05:11]Well, not all of them, but many of them are coming from the Eastern Bloc.
[1:05:15]And that's how we have the relationship with Santa Fe Institute.
[1:05:20]And Murray Gell-Mann specifically.
[1:05:22]And I introduced Epstein to Murray Gell-Mann.
[1:05:24]Sorry.
[1:05:25]This is Santa Fe Institute?
[1:05:27]Yes.
[1:05:28]Thank you.
[1:05:29]And Murray Gell-Mann was there.
[1:05:31]And Murray Gell-Mann and Epstein got along very, very well.
[1:05:34]He was the man of the Bloc.
[1:05:36]So do you know whether...
[1:05:39]So while you...
[1:05:42]When you meet Mr. Epstein in the early 90s, continuing on, so not what he had done before.
[1:05:48]Did he...
[1:05:53]Why do you think, from what you saw or what you heard, he had the relationship or wanted
[1:05:58]to have the relationships that he had with Harvard and with MIT?
[1:06:01]So I think that that may have come with Wexner.
[1:06:05]I'm not sure.
[1:06:06]But that's something that I think, that Wexner maybe had a relationship with Harvard.
[1:06:11]And that he used that relationship to...
[1:06:15]I believe he funded a lot.
[1:06:17]And if he didn't, that his clients, of which Wexner obviously was one, would fund.
[1:06:22]And he would then make...
[1:06:25]He would arrange the fund or...
[1:06:27]Organize the fund or...
[1:06:30]We're going to take...
[1:06:31]We'll take a break in a minute.
[1:06:33]But just to kind of set us up for what we're going to talk about next, Mr. Ep...
[1:06:39]We talked yesterday morning about Mr. Epstein's kind of business and how he had money.
[1:06:46]Did he seem to live beyond his means as far as what he was making?
[1:06:53]So did you ever get the sense while you were with him that it was...
[1:06:59]Suspicious or curious how he was able to have the funds to buy two planes, an island, New Mexico, the ranch?
[1:07:12]Almost unlimited funds.
[1:07:14]You said it perfectly.
[1:07:16]I thought it was astonishing.
[1:07:18]But I didn't have any reason to believe that it came from anything nefarious.
[1:07:25]I saw him work.
[1:07:27]I never saw him really...
[1:07:28]I never saw him work.
[1:07:29]I never saw him really do anything other than be on the phone.
[1:07:31]There's that.
[1:07:32]And he had a lot of meetings, but he had a lot of accounts.
[1:07:36]And he dealt with pretty much every financier that you could care to mention.
[1:07:43]And if I could have access to the names, I'd be able to tell you which ones.
[1:07:47]I just don't remember them all.
[1:07:49]But in every bank, Goldman, Lehman, all of them, to my mind anyway.
[1:07:59]Most of the major businessmen at that time, he was in the Council of Foreign Relations.
[1:08:03]So you had access.
[1:08:05]That's an extraordinary list of people.
[1:08:08]It just is.
[1:08:09]And then he...
[1:08:11]You asked me about his business.
[1:08:13]So I thought about it last night, how to try and explain what it was.
[1:08:16]And I think the best thing is to focus only on Wexner's business.
[1:08:19]So I was present for some of their meetings in some of their business.
[1:08:24]And I listened.
[1:08:27]And so things that I personally recollect, and I know I heard, was that he would...
[1:08:35]When I told you yesterday, I think, that he would...
[1:08:38]No detail was too small, so he would do the contracts with the staff, I think.
[1:08:43]And I saw that myself.
[1:08:46]And he also organized all the trusts for all the children.
[1:08:50]So if Wexner had kids...
[1:08:52]Well, if he did, he did have children.
[1:08:54]So every time there was a child, he would create a trust for that child.
[1:08:57]And I don't...
[1:08:58]These were complex financial structures that would contain stocks of the various businesses.
[1:09:06]He restructured, when I was there, Wexner's business in its entirety, as I recollect.
[1:09:13]And then, not only that, but there were business interests.
[1:09:16]So Wexner owned, or built, or designed, or...
[1:09:19]I don't quite know how to characterize it.
[1:09:21]But New Albany, which is a center outside of Ohio, Columbus, Ohio, specifically.
[1:09:26]And he built...
[1:09:29]I remember this conversation.
[1:09:31]He built himself a very large house.
[1:09:34]Like, truly enormous.
[1:09:35]And it's one of the biggest private homes I've ever been to.
[1:09:38]And he built all the houses around him.
[1:09:41]And I'm like, this is so random.
[1:09:43]Why would you do that?
[1:09:44]And he said to me, well, because I want to make sure that the people around me are my friends.
[1:09:47]I want my friends around me and my neighbors.
[1:09:49]And I was like, well, whatever.
[1:09:51]Okay.
[1:09:52]You know.
[1:09:53]I've been around enormous wealth.
[1:09:55]Enormous wealth my whole life.
[1:09:57]And I was like...
[1:09:58]At some point, I just say, okay, whatever.
[1:10:00]I get it.
[1:10:01]And I don't...
[1:10:02]And so that's what he did.
[1:10:03]But Epstein ran New Albany, which included a country club and a golf club and a...
[1:10:09]I mean, gosh, your boss is one of the all-time great, you know, businessmen in this area.
[1:10:13]You know what that is.
[1:10:15]And he certainly does.
[1:10:17]So there'd be that.
[1:10:18]And there was a business business that Epstein...
[1:10:20]Well, he told me he owned it.
[1:10:21]Of course, I can't say that for sure, because I don't know.
[1:10:24]But it's a sports thing.
[1:10:26]Riddell?
[1:10:27]Is that a business?
[1:10:28]Riddell's?
[1:10:29]I thought about it last night.
[1:10:30]It's red.
[1:10:31]And it had hats.
[1:10:32]Helmets.
[1:10:33]Riddell.
[1:10:34]Now, how he owned that...
[1:10:35]Well, he told me he owned it.
[1:10:39]But how he owned that, I...
[1:10:43]But that was before I...
[1:10:44]I think I came in and he had it.
[1:10:45]Or he said he did.
[1:10:46]And he had other businesses.
[1:10:47]He had...
[1:10:48]I know this notion that he did nothing, and he just was a grifter and whatnot.
[1:10:51]Okay.
[1:10:52]But I'm not going to go into that.
[1:10:53]No.
[1:10:54]No.
[1:10:55]No.
[1:10:56]No.
[1:10:57]No.
[1:10:58]No.
[1:10:59]No.
[1:11:00]I'm not going to say that's not true, but it's not what I saw, and it's not what I believe
[1:11:03]is true, not because it couldn't have been that he didn't, grift, or whatever the word
[1:11:10]is of people, but I saw what I thought looked like real work.
[1:11:15]Well, why don't we take a break?
[1:11:19]Yeah.
[1:11:20]Okay.
[1:11:21]Yeah.
[1:11:22]Thank you.
[1:11:23]All right, the time is now 10 35, and we'll take a break.