[0:00]All right, we're resuming the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell.
[0:05]It is 2-16 on Thursday, July 24th.
[0:09]And the recording device is now on.
[0:13]So when we stopped to take a break,
[0:17]we were talking about what has been publicly discussed
[0:21]as a black book or the Epstein list,
[0:26]and that's where we are.
[0:28]So you said you think you might know
[0:31]or that you're aware of kind of the origin of this narrative.
[0:36]All right, I just want to reiterate again,
[0:38]there is no list that I am aware of.
[0:41]I've never at any time, at least during the period of time
[0:44]when I was present.
[0:58]The origin of this story, I believe, begins...
[1:08]Or it has a beginning.
[1:10]It has a beginning in 2009, and then it has a prequel.
[1:13]But we have to start in 2009.
[1:19]In 2009, there is...
[1:24]Epstein is, I think, out of jail.
[1:29]And there are civil suits taking place.
[1:35]Many of these are coming out of a disgraced law firm,
[1:41]Rothstein Adler.
[1:43]Rothstein...
[1:45]Rosenfeld and Adler.
[1:51]At that law firm is a lawyer
[1:55]who started there in April, May 2009,
[2:01]called Brad Edwards.
[2:06]In 2009, allegedly,
[2:15]the FBI gets a call in October of 2009
[2:23]from Brad Edwards.
[2:28]And he...
[2:29]Allegedly tells them
[2:30]that he has come across a piece of evidence
[2:36]that belongs to Epstein
[2:40]that contains a list
[2:44]of all of his clients
[2:48]and victims,
[2:53]underage girls, massage therapists,
[2:55]and the men who are having sex with them.
[3:06]And he becomes...
[3:06]He, Brad Edwards, becomes a cooperating witness...
[3:10]Cooperating...
[3:12]Confidential...
[3:12]Confidential informant, sorry.
[3:14]Confidential informant for them.
[3:17]And in a sting operation,
[3:20]obtains the list
[3:23]from a former butler of Epstein's
[3:28]called Alfredo Rodriguez.
[3:32]And it becomes evidence
[3:35]in the civil suit.
[3:38]Alfredo Rodriguez is subsequently prosecuted
[3:50]for having an AK-47
[3:54]or something weird,
[3:56]some guns or something,
[3:58]and goes to trial.
[3:59]And there's a criminal complaint
[4:01]that the FBI produced.
[4:03]And in that criminal complaint,
[4:05]it says that Brad Edwards became aware
[4:09]of the list,
[4:11]but we'll call it the list
[4:13]for the purposes of this,
[4:14]after Alfredo Rodriguez's
[4:19]two depositions
[4:21]that are held in
[4:23]Epstein's civil suit.
[4:29]It's in the FBI's affidavit
[4:32]that the evidence was collected
[4:34]and Brad Edwards became aware of it
[4:36]after the second deposition.
[4:38]It's in the criminal complaint.
[4:45]The truth is different
[4:48]from what's in
[4:50]both the criminal complaint
[4:52]and in the affidavit.
[4:52]In that FBI affidavit
[4:54]and in Brad Edwards's
[4:56]own statements on the subject.
[5:00]The truth is that
[5:01]Alfredo Rodriguez was deposed
[5:03]twice, once in July
[5:05]and once in August.
[5:08]And in the July deposition
[5:11]told Brad Edwards
[5:13]that he had
[5:14]handwritten notes
[5:17]or a journal or whatever
[5:18]in the deposition.
[5:21]And Brad Edwards replied,
[5:22]well, we're going to come back
[5:23]for a second deposition.
[5:25]And the second deposition
[5:26]takes place in August.
[5:31]What this means is that
[5:32]Brad Edwards had access
[5:34]to the list
[5:37]from sometime between July and August
[5:41]until when he actually
[5:43]called the FBI in October.
[5:46]So we're talking
[5:48]six months or so.
[5:54]Rothstein's firm
[5:56]was
[5:59]raided
[6:01]a few days after
[6:03]the list
[6:04]went into the FBI's hands.
[6:07]And subsequently,
[6:09]Rothstein himself was
[6:11]prosecuted for RICO
[6:13]and I believe went to jail
[6:14]for 50 years.
[6:16]As part of that RICO case,
[6:18]he admitted to on the record
[6:21]and was,
[6:22]I don't know whether he was prosecuted
[6:23]for creating fake settlements
[6:26]and fake evidence in Epstein's,
[6:35]that he had done that,
[6:36]or was it a false accusation?
[6:38]And that,
[6:38]in 2009,
[6:39]simultaneously whilst this was going on,
[6:43]my boyfriend, Ted Waite,
[6:49]was asked for $10 million
[6:52]to keep me out of any of Epstein's
[6:55]civil suits.
[6:57]Up until then,
[6:59]I had not been in any of Epstein's
[7:02]civil suits.
[7:03]In fact, I wasn't even sure,
[7:05]say, for the first time, that Epstein's civil suits would not be in my life.
[7:06]In fact, I wasn't even sure, say for the first time, that Epstein's civil suits would not be in my life.
[7:07]time I was mentioned was by ***. I hadn't been, I was basically nowhere. And then Ted
[7:17]was called for this $10 million and had been shown, his people had been shown evidence
[7:25]that included the list, the flight logs and various other pieces of evidence. Now we're
[7:38]going to the prequel part of this story, so then it can tie to how this starts. In 2007,
[7:51]Epstein signs the non-prosecution agreement. He then fights the prosecution agreement or
[7:59]debates it through the DOJ or whatever happened there and goes to the court in 2008 when it's
[8:09]accepted or whatever that is.
[8:13]Villafana.
[8:14]Was the lead prosecutor over the lead, yes, in that case and she, I think, was not happy
[8:26]with the outcome and utilised at that time Brad Edwards to file the CVRA case. Now what
[8:50]is, what I have managed to understand.
[8:55]Yeah what is interesting about that is that there's evidence if you just look at the
[9:25]documents.
[9:26]Yes.
[9:26]What he says is that he'd never heard of the CVRA case before
[9:30]and Villafana called him and told him to file it.
[9:35]The sole purpose of the CVRA was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement.
[9:44]So what I believe is that Villafana worked with Brad Edwards,
[9:48]who she had also been, he was the lawyer that she had selected
[9:52]as a pro bono lawyer for some of the victims
[9:56]and he was also working for Rothstein's firm
[10:02]that was under RICO investigation for that entire time
[10:05]creating fake evidence in Epstein's case
[10:08]and she had just filed, hidden, secret, using Edwards
[10:16]to overturn the NPA by filing the CVRA case
[10:21]that's sole purpose was to overturn it.
[10:23]And so when he approached her with,
[10:27]the list, this was part of the effort to utilize and find new evidence
[10:35]to support the overturning either of the NPA and or of a new case against Epstein.
[10:45]Because Brad Edwards, or I don't know if it was Brad Edwards,
[10:48]because Rothstein's firm asked my then boyfriend for $10 million
[10:52]to kick me out of suits that I had no knowledge of at that time whatsoever,
[10:57]I now know that the base of this story was,
[11:00]the blackmail of a billionaire, because Ted Waite was a multi-billionaire.
[11:07]He had everything, he was way, way more wealthy than Epstein, if anyone.
[11:16]And that is the reason why Ted and I broke up, was the basis of it.
[11:23]So, and that list was created so then the masseuses that were on that list,
[11:31]I had never heard of some of them.
[11:34]I, not even from the civil suits,
[11:37]that had come up since I've seen it.
[11:39]And this is me now knowing what's in the list today.
[11:43]And I believe that, oh, Alfredo Rodriguez,
[11:49]so there's a metamorphosis of this list.
[11:52]So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes that's
[11:55]in the documents contemporaneously is that it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has.
[12:02]It then morphs into something that Alfredo took a book,
[12:07]that Alfredo took from Epstein's computer, but there's no computer,
[12:12]I know, certainly not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken that came out as a book.
[12:18]And then it morphed into, at the civil time of my civil cases,
[12:22]into a book that was taken from my computer.
[12:26]And then it morphed into the Southern District of New York,
[12:28]as a combination list of mine and Epstein's.
[12:32]That is a metamorphosis through documents
[12:37]that you can trace.
[12:39]So, in your mind, from what you just described,
[12:51]there is a list, it's just manufactured.
[12:57]I mean, have you seen the list even fake?
[13:00]Like, do you know?
[13:01]I haven't seen it, but what I guess my thing is that what Brad Edwards says
[13:07]in all of these things is in the paperwork and whatnot.
[13:10]And then, so all this story is basically controlled
[13:14]by force.
[13:14]There's only five people, there's four alleged victims that speak
[13:17]about the list and the blackmail and the men and the sex and whatnot.
[13:22]And the lawyers, and now the prosecutors, sorry.
[13:26]The Southern District of New York for sure.
[13:29]But no one else.
[13:30]None of these stories carry from any of the 44 alleged original victims.
[13:34]They never, ever say that they were farmed out to anybody.
[13:38]But the list itself?
[13:39]Yes.
[13:40]Where is it?
[13:41]There is no list.
[13:43]But Brad,
[13:44]Brad Edwards said that he created the list.
[13:46]So that's what I was a little bit confused about.
[13:47]Sorry, he created a list.
[13:49]He, so in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez produced that became evidence,
[13:54]Exhibit 52 in my trial, it has markings all over it, circles and dots and whatnot.
[14:01]And Brad Edwards says that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of all the people who were involved.
[14:10]It includes Alan Dershowitz, for the record, who's marked.
[14:13]I don't remember what it does with Donald Trump.
[14:16]I don't, I don't know.
[14:17]You'd have to look.
[14:18]I don't have it.
[14:20]But I believe, so what he did, he marked up, I don't know who, somebody marked up that book of names.
[14:29]And I think all the names of the people that they went for were originally selected between two sources.
[14:36]One was this alleged book of names.
[14:39]And one was also from the telephone logs that were collected from the house in Palm Beach.
[14:46]And just to finish it off, there is a note.
[14:51]I have some papers for you if you wanted them, where Brad Edwards says that he has a list of 25 men that he got money off.
[15:03]So, okay, so, so, so the list that everybody, the black book, the list, what you're saying is that your, your, your Exhibit 52 from your trial,
[15:14]which is like a more of an address book, a roll.
[15:17]It's like a more of a index type thing that Mr. Rodriguez, Alfredo Rodriguez, your understanding is that somewhere along the way, he went through and kind of marked that list to say.
[15:27]I don't know where that book actually comes from.
[15:29]Okay.
[15:30]I don't know what that book is.
[15:32]That book is some type of a compilation.
[15:35]But what it is, is it's just pieces of paper with type.
[15:38]So if you had, you could have made a list.
[15:42]I could put.
[15:45]But you're referring to something that's been public for a long, if we're thinking about the same thing.
[15:49]Okay.
[15:49]You're talking about the, you're right, it's like a bunch of different types of paper or whatever.
[15:56]I only have a copy of it, but with big parts of it redacted publicly because people's addresses and whatnot.
[16:01]Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
[16:03]Okay.
[16:04]So it, oh, perfect.
[16:07]Yes.
[16:07]So you will find.
[16:08]We're looking at Exhibit 52 now.
[16:10]Okay.
[16:10]So you're looking at Exhibit 52.
[16:12]So the one they produced, they, the Southern District of New York actually produced a book for me to see.
[16:19]It is evidence of the actual thing it was.
[16:21]And I, it has marks, it has tabs, it has things, it has names I've never seen.
[16:28]It had like that list of, those, that list was basically the names that they choose to produce at trial.
[16:36]Now, in Rothstein Adler's firm, I also have some documents where Rothstein, his, his original scheme at Rothstein Adler was to place processes.
[16:49]He had a, a bar, a dancey bar where he had girls and I believe he would use them and put them as fake secretaries in people's offices and then she might touch him or he might touch her or something and boom, he got $25,000 for that.
[17:06]And those girls, and I'm not saying that those are the girls that came in Epstein's case necessarily, but the.
[17:16]So, so.
[17:21]But again, let's like, so separating the evidence that came in at your trial and what you just talked about with Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez, during the time that you were with Mr. Epstein, and even in the 2000s when you were around less frequently, you never observed, or you never saw any sort of list or blacklist.
[17:51]Or a black book or a list of individuals who, you know, linked to certain masseuses or anything like that.
[18:00]Absolutely, no.
[18:03]There is no list.
[18:05]There is no, I'm not aware of any blackmail.
[18:10]I never heard, I never heard that.
[18:12]I never saw it and I never, I never imagined it.
[18:19]While we're on this topic.
[18:21]Just, and again, I know we're jumping around and we've been going at it for a while, so I apologize, but there's recently been reports about a birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein, I think for his 50th birthday in 2003.
[18:37]That's true.
[18:38]What do you, what do you know about that?
[18:40]So, my mom did a birthday book for my father at his 60th.
[18:51]And when I, Epstein would talk about his 50th.
[18:55]Yeah.
[18:55]And he said, I don't know what I'm going to do.
[18:56]And I said, well, this is a nice thing.
[18:58]He said, my mom did this book for my dad.
[19:00]And he said, I love that idea.
[19:02]He said, can you help coordinate it?
[19:07]And he organized it.
[19:09]Who, he called a lot of the people himself.
[19:12]I coordinated the putting together of the book.
[19:16]And in some instances, I called people that asked them to contribute.
[19:20]And what was in the book?
[19:21]Like, what was the ask of the people you called?
[19:24]Well, it's his 50th birthday.
[19:26]Say anything you want on a piece of paper.
[19:28]Okay.
[19:28]I mean, nothing more from that.
[19:30]I mean, it was an obvious question.
[19:31]But you basically, his folks were invited to send something to you to celebrate his birthday.
[19:38]Yes.
[19:38]To say happy birthday with, like, have a wonderful day or something else.
[19:43]There was no, there was no ask.
[19:46]But I wasn't responsible for everybody in that book.
[19:48]And there were people that he would ask himself to contribute.
[19:54]Do you remember some, do you remember specific names of individuals who did send letters or who did contribute?
[20:04]It's been so long.
[20:06]I want to tell you that I don't remember.
[20:09]I honestly don't remember.
[20:10]The article talks about several names, but including the folks of the article, which is on Donald Trump.
[20:18]Do you remember President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a note?
[20:23]I don't.
[20:25]Do you think?
[20:26]The article, well, do you remember seeing that book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York?
[20:39]Yes.
[20:40]Okay, what do you remember seeing?
[20:41]I remember there was, there were some portions of that book.
[20:48]But what surprised me, yeah, what surprised me was how few there were.
[20:56]Because I thought if you had those, where are the rest?
[20:59]There was none of Mr. Trump.
[21:01]In your discovery?
[21:04]In my discovery, sorry.
[21:05]President Trump, there was nothing from President Trump.
[21:07]And do you remember, but separate and apart from your discovery, do you remember one way or the other whether President Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday?
[21:16]I do not remember.
[21:18]And the article that references the letter talks about like a, like either a picture of a naked woman or something like that.
[21:29]Do you have any recollection of that?
[21:31]I do not.
[21:33]Wait, just, no, I don't.
[21:35]Do you remember, so what do you remember seeing from your discovery around the book?
[21:44]Like you said, portions of it or some of the papers, what do you remember?
[21:47]I remember there were maybe, that's what I just want to say about the discovery, that I had about, maybe this is an exaggeration, I'm not sure, but in my mind it's about close to 5 million pages, 5 million documents.
[22:04]It was a lot.
[22:05]And of that giant document dump that I received.
[22:09]I was only, maybe as much as 30 to 35 percent I was never able to access.
[22:17]And this is documented at the court.
[22:20]And so I cannot say that I saw everything because I didn't.
[22:25]Yeah, okay.
[22:26]I just want you to know that.
[22:27]And I think that that was by design.
[22:30]But you, but you do remember.
[22:32]I do remember some pages.
[22:34]Seeing some pages of the book.
[22:35]I do, yes.
[22:35]Okay.
[22:36]Do you remember which pages you saw?
[22:39]Like.
[22:39]From who had written those letters?
[22:42]Or no?
[22:42]I really don't remember, I'm sorry.
[22:44]It's okay.
[22:47]Did you, did you, and or, so the same questions we've asked about some other individuals, did you have, did you meet Bill Gates over the years?
[22:57]Yes.
[22:59]Because of your relationship with Mr. Epstein or separate?
[23:02]That one, well, I met Mr. Gates, I went to the TED conference, I gave, I went to TED conference and I actually spoke at the TED conference.
[23:09]Not the main stage, the sub-stage, and I also gave several TEDx's, but, and I met him there, but we weren't friendly, and I actually did meet him because I knew his, I don't know if he was chief of staff or whoever, Boris, and I met him, I think, once.
[23:30]I, I may have met him actually at 71st Street.
[23:34]I, I may have once.
[23:37]I don't remember if I met him there or at a restaurant, I don't remember.
[23:40]And that would have been because of Epstein, because Epstein was friendly with Boris and Boris, that's all I remember.
[23:46]Do you know whether Mr. Gates traveled with Mr. Epstein on his plane to any of his houses?
[23:53]So if that, that friendship was after, you know, it was in the late 2000s, so if I met him, like I said, I went to Epstein's house maybe once or twice, maybe I met him there, I don't remember.
[24:04]So you don't remember?
[24:05]So I wouldn't know if he had been on Epstein's plane.
[24:08]And you weren't, you don't recall ever being on the plane?
[24:09]I don't recall ever playing with him, flying to the island or to anywhere.
[24:12]No.
[24:14]Um, do you know somebody named Reid Hoffman?
[24:19]I do.
[24:20]Who's that?
[24:21]Reid's a Silicon Valley guy.
[24:23]Is what?
[24:24]Silicon Valley.
[24:26]And how do you know him?
[24:28]Um, through my friends in San Francisco.
[24:30]I have a, I used to have a very close friend who was in San Francisco who's part of that whole, I have several actually, or had.
[24:37]So is that a relationship you have kind of separate and apart from Mr. Epstein?
[24:41]Separate.
[24:42]Um, do you know whether, um, Mr. Epstein had a relationship with, uh, Reid Hoffman?
[24:48]I don't know.
[24:49]Did you ever observe Mr. Hoffman flying anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein, um, or getting massages?
[24:55]No.
[24:56]Um, so there was, there's a list, a list of multiple masseuses that, that is floating around, I think you had in your discovery, I think you were just talking about that.
[25:22]Um, that list, do you know?
[25:27]Do you know how that list was created?
[25:30]No.
[25:31]Uh, that, all that stuff that came out of that book, I now find suspect.
[25:36]It's, it's part, it's part of the story you just told us.
[25:38]Yes.
[25:38]Now, I'm not saying it's all fake.
[25:40]I don't know what's real and what's not.
[25:42]I don't know what name is true.
[25:43]Now that it's been, to my mind anyway, now that it has been, without a doubt, contaminated and possibly fraudulent, I, I, I'm not, I don't know.
[25:55]I mean, obviously the numbers that I recognize.
[25:57]I recognize them, I own, those are real, but how it was actually ended up put together and compiled and the purposes for it, for which then they blackmailed my boyfriend, now I, I'm just.
[26:08]Over the years, when you were serving as like the general manager, so the mid-90s all the way into the 2000s, did you, or do you know whether anyone maintained a list of all the masseuses, like a running list?
[26:23]So, there would have, so there's two things, well, three ways.
[26:26]So.
[26:27]I know that the house itself, John Alessi, had a Rolodex that he kept the names and numbers of all the people that came to the house so that he could call.
[26:41]So, because I only was with Epstein even at best half the time.
[26:47]So, when I was there, he had like his chief of staff who could find whatever he needed.
[26:54]And when I wasn't there, he had to rely on somebody else, right?
[26:56]So.
[26:57]John Alessi or whoever else.
[26:59]So, everybody, whoever was traveling with him or however, wherever he was, he needed somebody else to access information.
[27:06]So, he had an assistant chief who was his secretary, who would be the one that would update his, his computer.
[27:16]You know, like everybody has an address book.
[27:19]But was, was what you're describing, which, I'm not, it makes sense, I'm just, was that.
[27:26]A list of masseuses or a list of people that might need to be contacted, which would necessarily include a lot of masseuses?
[27:35]That's the latter.
[27:42]And did you, did you update that?
[27:45]Like, were you part of, were you one of the people that would, would add names to it?
[27:48]Like, if, if a masseuse came and leaves and Mr. Epstein says, yes, she was good, would you be part, like, how was the list kind of maintained or who maintained it?
[27:59]Typically, no.
[28:00]Because there would be an assistant who would do that.
[28:03]Plus, Epstein would not allow me to answer the telephone, ever.
[28:08]So, or maintain or keep any of his messages, either in the office or at the house.
[28:14]So, typically, that wouldn't be, because I wouldn't be the one.
[28:19]Could I say to you I never did it?
[28:21]No, of course not, because that just seems ludicrous.
[28:24]But as a rule of thumb, the answer would be no.
[28:30]Um, during the 2007, 8, 9 investigation, the investigation out of the Southern District of Florida,
[28:38]so you said that you weren't contacted by law enforcement.
[28:42]I was not.
[28:43]After Mr. Epstein was charged, did you have conversations with him about the investigation?
[28:49]He never talked to me about it.
[28:53]Did you, um...
[28:55]I mean, I can't, let's put it this way.
[28:57]If he did, I have no recollection of it.
[28:59]I mean, I'm sure he must have said...
[29:01]This is all whatever he said, or it's nothing.
[29:04]I mean, I just don't have any, I just don't have any memory.
[29:10]I mean, I just, I was, I was with Ted.
[29:13]My, I was, like, gone.
[29:15]I mean, plus, I just didn't want to know, either, I suppose.
[29:19]So, you don't know firsthand why the U.S. attorney in Florida made the deal that he did?
[29:27]I mean, you weren't part of that discussion along the way.
[29:30]Like, Mr. Epstein didn't say, I'm getting a good deal, or...
[29:34]You know, I, uh, something's happening with the case that's very good.
[29:37]You were, you, you, to the extent you know anything about it, it's just from what you've heard or read from others, not from Mr. Epstein, is that right?
[29:45]He never talked about the non-prosecution directly with me, no.
[29:48]But, um, he did...
[29:51]But it's still enforceable, that's the thing.
[29:53]I mean, he never said, hey, are you happy with this deal, like that.
[29:59]But I understood.
[30:03]I mean, he never...
[30:04]He never enjoined me to the MPA, but I understand that he included me, specifically, and I'll tell you why.
[30:14]Well, it's okay. You don't need to get into that.
[30:16]I don't want to talk about the legal, what's on appeal.
[30:20]I'm just...
[30:21]No, I wouldn't...
[30:21]The reason for my question, just to be...
[30:24]I'm not trying to hide something, but there's a very strong belief that he got a very good deal.
[30:31]And that he should...
[30:34]He should have been sentenced to more time, or got a different sentence from the feds than a non-prosecution agreement.
[30:41]And I'm not asking you to opine on that, but I'm wondering whether he ever talked to you about that.
[30:48]But it sounds like he didn't.
[30:50]That he got a good deal? No.
[30:52]I think, actually...
[30:54]Well, his comments that I've read was that he didn't get a good deal.
[30:57]And I think that, you know, when he fought it so hard, it's because he didn't think he did.
[31:01]When he was serving his sentence...
[31:04]Were you around during that time, like when he was allowed to leave during the day, or travel during the day?
[31:11]I never called him. I never saw him. And I never went to the jail.
[31:17]So, I'm going to ask you questions that you shouldn't read into them.
[31:21]I just want to know whether they resonate with you.
[31:26]Have you ever had any contact with any representative that you know of from Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency?
[31:34]Can you ask me?
[31:35]Can you ask me that again?
[31:36]Have you ever had any contact with an individual that you understand to be from Mossad, an Israeli intelligence agency?
[31:44]Well, not deliberately.
[31:46]Pardon me?
[31:46]Not deliberately.
[31:47]Okay.
[31:49]And did you know...
[31:50]We talked about this a little bit earlier, but just to put a finer point on it.
[31:54]Did you ever know that Mr...
[31:56]Were you ever told, did you ever think that Mr. Epstein was getting any money from any intelligence agency, including Mossad?
[32:03]No.
[32:05]Well, I don't believe so, but I wouldn't know.
[32:08]I mean, I would be very surprised if he did. I don't think so. No.
[32:16]We've talked about a lot of names, and I'm sure there's some that we haven't covered.
[32:20]Are there any foreign nationals?
[32:24]So, right now we've talked about some British, the royal family a little bit, and maybe high society folks in Britain.
[32:33]Were there any international businessmen or politicians?
[32:39]There were a lot of politicians that had a very close relationship, or a close relationship with Mr. Epstein, that we haven't already talked about.
[32:50]Off the top of my head, I can think of Ehud Barak.
[32:58]You said that Mr. Epstein, at some point in the mid to late 90s, he started taking testosterone.
[33:05]Did you ever know him to take any other drugs?
[33:11]No.
[33:12]I mean, he took pills for his heart, I think.
[33:16]But I don't know other, no substances.
[33:20]What...
[33:20]Do you know anything about...
[33:21]Do you know anything about...
[33:21]Do you know anything about...
[33:21]Do you know anything about his heart condition?
[33:23]I know we talked about this at, you know, 9.45 this morning, but do you know anything about his heart condition and beyond that you understood he had a heart condition that affected his ability to have sex?
[33:35]Other than what he told me, no.
[33:36]He never shared anything, but he did take pills, so I don't know anything about that.
[33:41]And like I said, he did the testosterone, which made him mean.
[33:47]And we're jumping around a little bit.
[33:49]Sorry.
[33:49]Do you know someone named Donald Barr?
[33:52]No.
[33:54]He is, I can represent to you, was the former headmaster of the Dalton School, which you mentioned earlier.
[34:02]Oh, right.
[34:03]Do you remember any conversations with him about a book that Mr. Barr wrote called Space Relations?
[34:11]I've never heard of that.
[34:12]About aliens and sex?
[34:20]Do you know whether, well, have you ever met the former Attorney General of the United States, Bill Barr?
[34:25]No.
[34:25]Do you remember whether Mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came up in conversations you had with Mr. Epstein?
[34:34]I don't, I don't recall any.
[34:41]Did you have a relationship or no, I'm using relationship and I appreciate you don't like that word.
[34:48]Did you know Mr. Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein?
[34:55]Yes.
[34:56]How did you know him?
[34:57]Through Jeffrey.
[34:57]Through Jeffrey.
[34:59]Yes.
[34:59]Yes.
[35:00]Yes.
[35:00]Yes.
[35:00]How would you describe your relationship, close, friendly?
[35:03]My personal?
[35:03]Yes.
[35:06]Not that close, but friendly enough.
[35:11]I mean, you know.
[35:13]How was Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with his brother, Mark, from what you observed?
[35:18]I mean, they weren't brotherly, but I think that, I don't know, there are periods when they were closer and then when they weren't.
[35:32]I think sometimes.
[35:33]I think sometimes Epstein found his brother irritating.
[35:37]And I think I know the answers given what you just said about Bill Barr, but did you ever hear any, from Mr. Epstein or anybody else, that Bill Barr had any role in Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida or any role in that process with Mr. Acosta?
[36:02]I never heard that.
[36:07]I think you said this in an interview, but if I'm wrong, forgive me.
[36:15]Do you have a view of Mr. Epstein, of whether he committed suicide or whether something else happened?
[36:28]Can we take a break?
[36:29]Yeah, sure.
[36:30]Yeah, we can take a break.
[36:30]Yeah, sure.
[36:31]Actually, it's a good time to take a break anyway because we don't want to spoil the day.
[36:35]All right, so we're going to take a break at, it's 2.53, Thursday, July 24th.
[36:40]Thank you.
[36:41]Thank you.