[0:00]I definitely witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein's behavior and a modification, if
[0:09]you will, where in the past, in the early 90s, I don't remember traveling so much with
[0:16]other people, whether it be a masseuse or a yoga person, but now he started to travel
[0:21]with more, always a masseuse, whereas in the past it wasn't always a masseuse or always
[0:26]an instructor, there was now starting to be always an individual or a friend or whatever.
[0:31]There's always a, like, maybe the word would be entourage, but these were always people
[0:45]in their 20s, late 20s, early 30s, as my memory sees it, as I observed that time, and he tasked
[1:02]me with finding...
[1:02]local masseuse for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes, even though I say he would always
[1:08]travel with an entourage, sometimes he didn't, and he wanted to have a massage locally, so
[1:13]I visited the spas that were local in St. Thomas, in St. Thomas and in St. John, and
[1:21]if I met someone, a man or a woman, actually, because it was difficult to find somebody
[1:25]in St. Thomas, it's not exactly, you know, so, and I did find a couple of people who
[1:31]would come.
[1:32]So that's how...
[1:32]They came, because also it was a schlep, so if you had somebody who came, it would
[1:38]be, you'd have to, you know, boat ride, and several hours, it wasn't just a, it's not
[1:47]like arriving with your massage table and stuff, so there was that, so I did do that.
[1:52]So did, over the years, males also give massages to Mr. Epstein?
[1:57]Yes.
[1:58]I did say, I don't think, at the beginning, definitely.
[2:02]And I would say towards, sort of, again, late 90s, I don't remember any men, they
[2:10]were at the beginning, I think, in that, towards the late 90s, I kind of don't think of any
[2:14]men, I only think of women.
[2:16]Did you, you talk about entourage flying, right now we're talking about to the island,
[2:23]did you observe any sexual, I was going to say misconduct, but any sexual, any sex at
[2:33]all whatsoever on the plane?
[2:35]No.
[2:36]Never on the plane, never.
[2:39]Was there a part of the plane that was closed off from others where Mr. Epstein could go
[2:46]and get a massage, or what?
[2:47]Yeah, okay, so that's a, that's a good question, so there were two planes, so you
[2:50]had the, there was a Gulfstream, and that's open plan, so, anything, I mean, there was
[2:59]a sofa that turned into a bed, and he did sleep on that, and then, but in the Boeing,
[3:09]which he flew on a lot, there was, his area could be closed off with a door, and behind
[3:14]that door, there would be, there was a bedroom, and an office, so if that door was shut, you
[3:20]wouldn't see it.
[3:21]But do you, so if you'd never, so, but you never observed Mr. Epstein engaging in sex,
[3:27]or getting a massage with somebody, with one of the masseuses was not clothed on the
[3:33]plane?
[3:34]Um, I can't say that, I, I might have, I definitely might have, or either, but, but,
[3:39]both in the Gulfstream, or in the, uh, in the, I, I'm sure I did, but it's not, I can't.
[3:45]That's fair.
[3:46]Okay.
[3:46]Um.
[3:49]I'm, I'm absolutely sure I did, I must have, because, you know, he was so obsessed with
[3:53]someone rubbing his feet, or, just, when you ask me about massagers, I want to be
[3:57]clear, I generally, what, what I think of that is somebody on a massage table, but other
[4:03]people might think of it as something different, you know, you could have someone rubbing
[4:06]his feet, or his shoulder, I saw that all the time, that I did, but that's separate
[4:10]from being on a massage table.
[4:13]How, again, I know what we're talking about, a decade-long period, but, during the period
[4:19]we're talking about, um, in a seven-day week, how often would Mr. Epstein get a massage?
[4:26]In the 90s, when we're talking, he would get one every day.
[4:30]I think, as that time progressed, he would get one maybe twice a day.
[4:36]I do want to say that there was, um.
[4:40]Maybe a reason that things altered, or morphed, or progressed, um, and, um, it is maybe part
[4:55]of the reason, also, that I, he and I, uh, our relationship, or however somebody wants
[5:03]to call it, altered, and, um, he started doing testosterone, and that altered his
[5:14]character.
[5:14]And I believe that started in, uh, the late 90s, and, um, I believe that the FBI has his
[5:25]medical records, and you may see that on his medical records.
[5:29]So, you, you, you believe that he started taking testosterone in the 90s, and when you
[5:35]say that altered his behavior, you're saying it, what, it made him get more massages, or
[5:39]that was just one part of, of, of what changed about him?
[5:42]Well, he became more aggressive.
[5:44]Nice.
[5:45]And, I think that he may be, uh, well, now I'm just imagining that the, the testosterone
[5:55]altered his desires, or something, that, does that, uh.
[6:02]And so, so when, given what you've said the past couple hours about his kind of progression
[6:09]or change, let's focus on that time period.
[6:13]So, the moratorium.
[6:14]The, the testosterone.
[6:15]More towards the late 90s.
[6:16]Yeah, okay.
[6:17]So, 96, 97, and 8.
[6:18]You know, toward, when you, when you've said that he changed, um, did you know flat out
[6:22]that he was, um, having sex or otherwise, um, some sort of sexual conduct with masseuses
[6:33]regularly?
[6:36]Flat out, no.
[6:37]I denied that.
[6:38]I couldn't imagine that he would, but I think, looking back now, that, um, I, I, I did not.
[6:48]But.
[6:49]I started to suspect that he was not faithful.
[6:51]It seems ludicrous.
[6:52]But if, look, if, if, if he, if he's flying from Palm Beach to, to St. Thomas, or if he's
[7:06]flying, um, all over the country to New Mexico or to New York, um, or even in Palm Beach,
[7:13]and there's young women, putting aside whether they're under the age of 18 or in their 20s,
[7:18]um, every day at the house.
[7:20]Multiple masseuses, multiple massages on some days, um, you're interacting with the
[7:26]masseuses constantly.
[7:27]Hm.
[7:28]Um, or maybe that's not right.
[7:29]That's not right.
[7:30]Let me take back, let me take back what I just said.
[7:31]Ignore that part.
[7:32]Right.
[7:33]But you understand that he's getting massages every day, sometimes multiple times a day.
[7:37]The, by the late 90s, it's all women, presumably they're, um, some of them are new, but they're
[7:43]also repeat, repeat masseuses.
[7:46]Um, what did you, I mean, you, you had to know at that point that, that, that, that,
[7:49]you had to know at that point that there was something going on beyond just he really needed
[7:53]to get massaged.
[7:54]Okay, so, very fair question.
[7:55]There's two things.
[7:56]The first is the person that he saw the most at that period of time was in her 40s.
[8:01]Mm-hmm.
[8:02]And she was with him all the time.
[8:05]And I'm like, married as well.
[8:11]Yeah.
[8:14]And as, I'm square.
[8:16]And it never occurred, well, I don't believe it occurred to me at the time that with this
[8:21]woman, he would be having relationships.
[8:22]Right.
[8:23]Yeah.
[8:24]And he was with her, that was the person he had the most massages, yoga, and that was
[8:30]at that time, in the 90s period.
[8:34]The second thing is that, um, was, uh, he told me he didn't, he had to fool, he, having
[8:48]an erection.
[8:49]And I believed him.
[8:50]When you said he said that, do you mean he regularly told you that, like, he.
[8:56]When I, when I first, because when I didn't have sex with him after the first time, and
[9:03]it took, so I asked him, was it me, and he told me it was him.
[9:10]And I'd never, up until this moment in my life, I, as if, I'm not stupid, I'm very
[9:19]bright, I've had an excellent education, I've traveled all over the world, I had had
[9:24]boyfriends, but I had never met or understood that somebody could be so, uh, would, would
[9:35]lie to me about, about sex.
[9:37]I, it never occurred to me.
[9:39]I didn't have a, a frame of context within my life experience where somebody would be
[9:45]so, um, manipulative and devious with me.
[9:49]I just, and plus I just didn't have, I just, and I was happy not to have sex because I
[9:58]have a condition that does, doesn't lend itself to that.
[10:05]Does, um.
[10:06]And you learned, so fast forward just for a moment to the 2007, 8, 9 time period, and
[10:13]he's arrested and charged, and there's all kinds of press around his purported contact.
[10:18]At that point, did you, at that point did you accept that that was true, meaning did
[10:25]it make sense at that point when you were reading about, um, women who claimed that
[10:30]they had been abused, even underage, and did, at that point did you think to yourself, well,
[10:35]geez.
[10:36]Does it make sense now that I think about it, or no?
[10:37]First of all, I didn't, that's, I only read what was in the newspapers.
[10:41]I didn't have any other thing, and I'm embarrassed to say I, I didn't, I didn't believe it.
[10:47]Okay.
[10:48]Right.
[10:49]I mean, you, you didn't believe that the accusations were true at the time.
[10:53]No.
[10:54]Yeah.
[10:55]Um, so let's.
[10:58]And, and, and, sorry, I need to say, even if they were true, I believe that he was
[11:02]duped and he didn't know that they were, whatever it was in the papers at that time,
[11:07]whether they said that they were.
[11:08]I was 17 when it, I didn't, it didn't register.
[11:13]Because along with all of those, well, not in 2006, but later when the more salacious
[11:20]and other allegations came out, I knew were utterly false, which then just reinforced
[11:27]my belief that the rest was not true.
[11:29]Let me ask you a question about the age of, um, um, the masseuses over the years.
[11:35]Um.
[11:36]It.
[11:37]I think in my mind, there's a difference between you knowing or not knowing that a
[11:46]masseuse is under the age of 18 and coming to give a massage and you knowing that a strepsine,
[11:54]you know, sexually abused the, the underage person or made her strip or something like
[11:59]that.
[12:00]Meaning, um, and I want to understand whether you believe that nobody that came to give
[12:06]massages.
[12:07]Or that women were under 18 or that you, you didn't focus on their age, but you, you were
[12:17]more focused on whether any underage woman, um, was abused by him.
[12:25]I think, I think it's better to answer this question with corroborating evidence and
[12:33]then go back and explain so that I frame your, your understanding of what I'm saying.
[12:38]Yeah.
[12:39]My understanding is that in 2000 and, let's say 2008, they had interviewed 44 women, let's
[12:48]say.
[12:49]Or around that number.
[12:50]Mm-hmm.
[12:51]Oh, you have to understand, not a single one of those 44 women mentioned me in a single
[12:58]report.
[12:59]And it's not because, they didn't mention me in the report because they never met me.
[13:08]They never saw me and they never interacted with me.
[13:11]So, to go back to your question, it's not that I thought one way or another, it's that
[13:18]I didn't see them.
[13:19]Okay.
[13:20]I see.
[13:21]Okay.
[13:22]Does that?
[13:23]Yeah, yeah.
[13:24]No, that, that's, that's helpful.
[13:25]So.
[13:26]And not, when I say not one, not one single one of those reports talks about me.
[13:31]And I just want to clarify exactly because I'm obviously aware that one of those girls
[13:37]is, was one of the witnesses in my trial.
[13:39]Uh, specifically.
[13:40]To use her own testimony so that you don't have to hear my point of view, it's better
[13:53]if it comes from her own words and that way there's no, um, second guessing whether, what
[14:00]I'm saying.
[14:01]herself said that recruited her.
[14:09]Those are own words.
[14:16]That you were, that you didn't know.
[14:17]I mean, I assume.
[14:18]Oh, yeah.
[14:19]Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
[14:20]It's okay.
[14:21]It's okay.
[14:22]It's okay.
[14:23]I'm gonna have some slow cognition issues.
[14:25]Um, the, uh.
[14:26]So she says, she testifies that it was that, that recruited her and trained her and,
[14:34]and not you.
[14:35]So, so wait, so then in her first FBI, uh, meeting, she reports seeing a woman with short
[14:46]dark hair at the house, which then is used as evidence that that person was myself.
[14:52]person was myself, but the maid lady who helped keep the house was John Alessi's wife, with
[15:03]an accent, I believe she said. John Alessi's wife had short dark hair and an accent. I'm
[15:11]sorry, but I find, and you can ask yourselves this, I mean, I've obviously modified my accent.
[15:17]I've been in America a long time, but I'm British. I've been brought up with a very
[15:21]strong British accent. And I don't believe there's American on planet Earth that doesn't
[15:25]recognize this to be British or Australian, maybe, if you really don't know. But it's
[15:30]not some random accent. Now, the Hispanic, maybe. Okay. That was John's wife that she
[15:36]saw, not me. And I'd like to point out further how you potentially, through her own words,
[15:44]she identified...
[15:45]Why don't we stop there and ask the next question?
[15:47]Sorry. Okay.
[15:49]So it's, so just...
[15:51]And look, I want to, I want to try to, I think probably tomorrow we'll, I want to talk more
[16:00]about kind of the evidence against you and how to address that. So...
[16:04]Okay, sorry.
[16:05]No, no, no, don't apologize. So that's helpful, but I don't want you to be burdened. I want
[16:11]you to just tell the truth the best you can. So I don't want you to be burdened by what
[16:14]people said at trial or what you know the press says about you.
[16:17]I just thought it was illustrative when you asked me the question.
[16:20]It was. It was.
[16:20]Because it doesn't...
[16:21]I don't know.
[16:21]I did not. I absolutely have no memory at any... Now, I'm leaving separate to this,
[16:31]obviously, so that's a separate story. I'm not going to pretend. Well, we'll...
[16:34]We'll get to...
[16:35]Yes.
[16:36]Go ahead.
[16:36]But in the terms of the scheme or whatever, however you want to determine what you're
[16:41]calling that, I have no, no memory, no active anything.
[16:51]I have no memory of having seen anybody that resembles a young child, let's call it what
[16:58]it is, at that house giving him a massage at all. It's not even like I did this. It's
[17:06]an at all. And 44 people didn't see me or talk about me either, including...
[17:14]Did... And when you say that house...
[17:19]Oh, sorry, Palm Beach.
[17:21]Yeah, no, I understand what you mean, but... And I... Does the same...
[17:24]The same memory or lack thereof apply to... On planes, in New Mexico, in New York, in...
[17:32]Well, with some other important caveats. Well, on that, Bejewelin Jane, in my trial, was
[17:40]clearly underage, clearly a child. And I only saw her in Palm Beach. And I only saw
[17:47]her with her mother. The other person was clearly also not an adult or...
[17:54]Even Chloe, I believe. I remember her now. That would be the only two, or three, whatever
[18:02]that is.
[18:03]So, did you ever know Mr. Epstein to communicate with FBI agents, either, like, intelligence
[18:15]FBI agents, like, as a source, or just generally with FBI agents?
[18:20]No.
[18:21]Do you think if he had done that, you would have known, like, he would have told you something
[18:25]like that?
[18:26]Yeah.
[18:26]Like, if I said to you...
[18:27]Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI, would you say, that's crazy, no, he wasn't? Or
[18:35]maybe he was, I would... He wouldn't have told me that anyway.
[18:42]I have two answers for that. I think if he was, for real, I think he would have bragged
[18:48]about it to me, as a show-off, because he could be a show-off. And if he wasn't, he
[18:57]might have dropped it.
[18:59]Dropped it.
[18:59]Dropped it.
[18:59]Dropped it, like, he was cool. And I don't think, I don't remember him doing, either.
[19:07]Now, with, again, the caveat that in his, before I met him, finding money, I think
[19:14]he may have suggested that there were some people who helped him, but that's the only
[19:19]context that I recall that in.
[19:22]What do you mean by that? When you said finding money, what do you mean?
[19:25]Well, his business, where he, remember I told you?
[19:30]Mm-hmm.
[19:30]I think, in that context...
[19:31]He made, he showed me a photograph that he had with some African warlords or something
[19:38]that he told me, and, you know, I don't remember if that's what I interpreted, like, that kind
[19:47]of thing, or whether it was something like that. That's the only actual active memory
[19:52]I have of something nefarious, more than nefarious, I don't even know if it was nefarious,
[19:58]but covert, I suppose, would be the word.
[20:00]And what about any other intelligence agency, like the CIA, or Defense Intelligence, or
[20:07]any other law enforcement agency?
[20:15]Okay. I don't think so. I think that, I don't remember anything like that. I just don't
[20:21]think he had the, the wherewithal, and I think that whole aspect of that is, can I
[20:29]use a bad word?
[20:30]Yes.
[20:31]Yes.
[20:32]Bullshit.
[20:33]Okay. And what do you, you think is bullshit?
[20:37]Meaning, what do you mean?
[20:43]Would you have known if he was, would he have been bragging to you? Would he have been saying
[20:46]these things?
[20:47]I think he was, because I, I think, well, sorry. I think that, I think one of the reasons
[20:54]why he liked me was because of my, you know, my family connections, and why he liked other
[21:00]people was because they were cool, or whatever, and I think that, certainly early in, when
[21:07]I met him, he would have tried to impress me.
[21:08]Or tried to show off, if you will, like he was that guy, you know. And he wasn't that
[21:17]guy. And so, and I think that he would have tried to bullshit me, and he didn't. So I
[21:24]think it's, well, he may have tried to bullshit me, but no, I'm kidding. Sorry.
[21:29]So, I want to just shift for a few minutes to talk about post-2000, 2000 to kind of when
[21:36]your relationship changed over the years with him.
[21:39]Yeah.
[21:39]Yeah.
[21:39]Yeah.
[21:39]Yeah.
[21:39]Yeah.
[21:39]Yeah.
[21:39]Yeah.
[21:39]Yeah.
[21:39]Yeah.
[21:40]Yeah.
[21:40]Yeah.
[21:40]Yeah.
[21:40]Yeah.
[21:40]Yeah.
[21:40]Yeah.
[21:40]Yeah.
[21:40]Yeah.
[21:40]Yeah.
[21:40]Yeah.
[21:40]There come a time when he, Mr. Epstein, did meet members of the royal family?
[21:46]Yes.
[21:47]When was that?
[21:49]So, I need to go back, because I think I may have misspoke.
[21:52]Okay.
[21:53]I didn't misspeak.
[21:54]Yeah, go ahead.
[21:55]But it's something that I had forgotten.
[21:56]Of course.
[21:57]Yeah.
[21:58]Before I met Epstein, he lived in London for a period of time. I don't know for how
[22:02]long. And he met and knew some truly fancy people, like people, high society people.
[22:12]That included Princess Diana's best friend. Her name was Rosa Moncton. And Rosa's husband,
[22:19]Dominic Lawson, who's a famous journalist. Actually, he's a very well-known journalist.
[22:24]And when I, and he had, he was friends with the Bearings, Bearings Bank. I mean, he had,
[22:33]like, sort of, yeah.
[22:35]That was, you're talking about-
[22:37]Before he met me.
[22:38]Before, so in the-
[22:39]Eighties.
[22:40]Eighties.
[22:41]Yes. He was dating Eva Anderson. Miss-
[22:42]Yeah.
[22:43]Miss Sweden, I think. I don't know when she became Miss Sweden.
[22:46]Okay. So, earlier when you said that he met them later-
[22:49]Yes.
[22:50]You think he may have met some members of the royal family, or certainly British high
[22:53]society?
[22:54]He met, I don't know about the royal family, but certainly high society.
[22:57]Okay.
[22:58]And the reason why I know this is because sometime, we can, this is a documentable,
[23:03]documentable, I think, docu, whatever. There's a photograph that can give you the date,
[23:09]because I don't remember what the date is of this. So there's something that will peg
[23:13]whatever this date is. I don't remember when that is. Epstein went to London without
[23:21]me. He often went everywhere without me, but he was in London without me, which was decently
[23:26]unusual because London's my hometown. But anyway, he went without me. And he went to
[23:30]a big event in, I think it was in the, anyway, it was a big event. It's on the news. It's
[23:38]like, there's photographs of it. And he, I don't know if he sat with Diana, or he met
[23:42]Diana, or he'd already met her. I don't know. But-
[23:43]Yeah.
[23:44]But this, I believe, was organized by Rosa. And so there's, I don't know if she was being
[23:50]set up as a date for him, maybe, because she, I don't want to speak bad of Diana, but I'm
[23:57]not going to do that.
[23:58]Okay. So that was pre-meeting you-
[24:00]No, that was when that event happened, when we were-
[24:03]Oh, okay. That was-
[24:05]No, it's when we were, I'm not going to say together, but how about this, when I was
[24:09]his employee.
[24:10]Okay.
[24:11]Better.
[24:12]So now moving back to the 2000s.
[24:13]Yeah.
[24:14]Is there a couple of time when Mr. Epstein met Prince Andrew?
[24:19]Yes.
[24:20]And others in the royal family, or just Prince Andrew, as far as you know?
[24:26]So as much as I can piece it together, first of all, let's just state, I did not introduce
[24:35]him to Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson.
[24:40]That is a flat untruth. Start with that. So now I'm going to tell you how he did actually
[24:45]meet him.
[24:46]So if you find me that photograph, I can date that time when he met Princess Diana
[24:52]at that event. And based on that, I'll be able to tell you if it's pre or post that
[24:56]event, because I haven't looked it up and I've never bothered to check. So Lynn Forrester,
[25:03]who was a client or some type of client, or I think she actually tried to date him,
[25:08]or might have dated him for the record. She was in, do you want to ask me something?
[25:17]No, no, go ahead.
[25:18]She was, she had a house, or she rented a house in the Vineyard. I think it was in
[25:24]the Vineyard or Nantucket. I can't remember now which one it was. It was one of those.
[25:28]So either Nantucket or the Vineyard. And invited Epstein to go. And I believe that's when
[25:39]he met Prince Andrew. However, I believe that before that event, he had gone to the Bahamas
[25:46]and had hung out with Sarah Ferguson.
[25:49]Okay.
[25:50]Yeah.
[25:51]And Sarah had called Epstein and had arranged with Lynn, or I don't know. I don't know now.
[25:59]I'm speculating. Anyway, long and short, he met Andrew up there.
[26:04]And I'm not holding you to an exact date, but when approximately was that?
[26:07]Well, we can date it from that picture, if you find me the picture.
[26:10]But do you know, without looking at a photo, in your mind, approximately when was that?
[26:15]I want to say it was 2000, 2000, no, probably 2001, 2002.
[26:20]Probably 2000s.
[26:21]Yes.
[26:22]And I think it was actually Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met Jeffrey
[26:31]Epstein through you.
[26:32]I think that's true. So, well.
[26:35]It's true that Andrew said that.
[26:38]No, I'm sure it's true. Because I, I'm English. And my close friends are all close friends
[26:50]with Sarah and Andrew.
[26:51]And I would not say that I was close friends with Andrew before, but certainly we were
[26:59]friendly, and certainly his best friends, some of them were very, very close with me.
[27:04]And I think that my friendship, my, me being present, or me, is what made Andrew like
[27:15]Jeffrey Moore, like trust him, or I think that's maybe it.
[27:19]Well, you don't dispute that you're, that you kind of had a role in getting together.
[27:25]You're just saying, you didn't say, Prince, here's Jeffrey.
[27:28]I would never have introduced them. It would never have occurred to me to introduce them.
[27:31]I couldn't imagine them being friendly. Two, two chalk and cheeses would never, I mean,
[27:36]for real, there's nothing there to connect them. So, he met Prince Andrew, and then
[27:42]he had a really big relationship. I don't, I don't like that word. It sounds funky. They
[27:47]had a print.
[27:48]Acquaintanceship.
[27:49]Thank you. And through Sarah, actually. I think Sarah is the one that pushed that.
[27:55]And they met and hung out, I want to say, two or three times. That had nothing to do
[28:03]with me. I wasn't communicating with Andrew. I wasn't in touch with him. And I know this
[28:09]because I was annoyed. And I felt left out. And I felt disrespected. And I felt, you know,
[28:19]disrespected.
[28:20]And I was like, this is weird. I couldn't even imagine Epstein and Andrew together.
[28:25]And I thought that Sarah was trying to put the moves on Jeffrey, if I'm being honest.
[28:29]And I thought the whole thing was annoying.
[28:31]So, what happened with the relationship, putting aside the publicity around Prince
[28:39]Andrew's purported relationship with, what happened, as far as you know, with Prince
[28:46]Andrew and Mr. Epstein's relationship from the times you just described?
[28:51]Okay. So, after that.
[28:52]At some point, Jeffrey told me, Epstein told me that Andrew was coming to New York
[28:58]and I needed to organize the whole thing. That's classic, by the way. Classic Epstein.
[29:05]Of course, if someone's like, all right, fine, whatever. And because he wanted to make
[29:11]sure that Andrew was taken care of and that he was comfortable, he had whatever he needed
[29:16]and yada, yada, yada. And I'm like, well, am I going to meet him or are you just going
[29:20]to have me do all the job?
[29:21]And he said, well, you know, you can come and say hello.
[29:24]Wow. Wow. That's so nice of you. For real. Because you have to understand, like, I don't
[29:30]know if I told you this before, but I did not have the keys to his house. I was not
[29:33]allowed to go to his house unless I was summoned or told. I was not allowed to answer his
[29:39]phones. We can go there. But anyway, so this, we can tell it was a bit of a sore point,
[29:44]perhaps.
[29:45]Anyway, so Andrew came. And of course, the minute we got together, I was like, well,
[29:50]yay, hi. And then it was so nice because the difference of being in England with Prince
[30:02]Andrew versus being in New York without all the bullshit was insane. And our friendship
[30:08]just like lit up like this. Because first of all, we knew that I'm safe. I mean, safe
[30:14]as in I'm not, you know, Nigel Dempster or taking a picture.
[30:20]Yeah.
[30:21]Not in a million years would I do something so gross. And we honestly got on like a house
[30:26]offer. I really liked him a lot. And he's, it was so nice. And we just became really,
[30:33]really good friends. Much more so than when we were in London, if I'm honest.
[30:38]And then with respect to and Prince Andrew, what do you know about that relationship?
[30:45]Would you like to ask that again?
[30:49]Relationships, a big word. Like I said, I don't like the word. Let's just start there.
[30:53]Okay. So I have read, I just want to like piece together.
[30:58]Well, don't say, before you say what you read, because that's one of the problems
[31:01]is that we're all kind of well informed by like all the publicity and information around
[31:07]what everybody else has said. But what do you think? Or what did you see? What did
[31:14]you hear?
[31:15]Well, what's an even bigger word than bullshit?
[31:17]Okay. Why? Well, go ahead. Just.
[31:18]But finish that thought. Why do you think that?
[31:21]I'm going to tell you right now. I'm so happy to tell you. I'm like excited. I'm beyond
[31:26]excited. Okay. So there's going to mixture of what I've actually seen and know from the
[31:33]evidence and versus what I've put together. I'm, impossible for me at this point to separate
[31:38]everything, but I'll tell you what I know versus what I saw and what I physically have
[31:43]in here. But it's helpful for you to know.
[31:46]Okay.
[31:47]So the allegation, I have to go with the allegation. The allegation was that at my
[31:53]house in London in March, whatever that was, 2001, I believe, we went to London especially
[32:02]so that could have a relationship with Prince Andrew and she was paid a vast amount
[32:10]of money for that purpose. Okay. And that she then got in the, in my bathroom in my
[32:20]house in London and had sex, sexual relations with him and then went into my guest room
[32:26]and had full blown sex and then left my house. Oh, he left and she fell used and disgusting.
[32:33]And a photograph was taken of them just before all these events took place in my study. That
[32:39]is what is the story. Oh, and then after that she met him several other times, but
[32:44]we'll come to that. We'll come, this is where it will allegedly start.
[32:47]And they went to train.
[32:48]Oh, right, right, right.
[32:49]Oh, right, right, right. We went to a nightclub that night. Oh, we went to dinner, right?
[32:53]We went to dinner and then to train. Okay. So the first thing about that weekend, that
[32:58]specific weekend was that it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in the country. And I
[33:04]have some corroborating evidence for that and a lot of testimonial that you can check.
[33:10]So that takes care of the reason why I, one of the reasons why her story doesn't hold
[33:17]water.
[33:18]The second reason why, so by the way, when I say that, my mum turned 80th that actual
[33:24]weekend. It was her birthday. It's on March the 11th. And the reason why I went to London
[33:30]and I presume, but this I don't remember, is why when we were, so the whole trip started
[33:38]because of Alberto Pinto, who is the decorator for the island and for New York as well. And
[33:48]he had wanted Epstein to go to see a house in Marrakesh, if I remember rightly, and went
[33:58]via the Alhambra. And it was also for New Mexico. So there's architectural pieces that
[34:06]it contains. And that was the basis of that trip. And I suspect now that that trip was
[34:13]planned all around the fact that I had to be in, wanted to be in, I was going to be
[34:16]in London no matter what for my mum.
[34:17]No matter what for my mum's 80th birthday. At my brother's house in the country, which
[34:22]is approximately an hour outside London, an hour and a half, an hour and a half outside
[34:28]of London. And my brother's home. And we all congregated on the Saturday for her birthday
[34:36]celebration on the Sunday. And then we left. So that's that.
[34:43]The second reason why.
[34:46]Probably maybe even the more important reason than my mum's birthday that I think it's absolute
[34:52]rubbish is that Prince Andrew, the idea of him doing anything of that nature in my house
[35:00]that's the size of this room, is so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me as the man or what I
[35:12]just can't, I can't even know.
[35:19]Is there any way that it could have happened?
[35:21]No.
[35:22]Okay.
[35:23]Describe the physical plan.
[35:24]Oh, the physical. So the, my house was tiny. I think it's 900 square feet in total. Well,
[35:32]maybe that, is that right? Maybe. Maybe 900. It's on, it is on three floors, however.
[35:37]So you're talking about a little, it's a jewel. It used to be a stable for a horse.
[35:42]It was the stables for the big houses. It was the, it was the little poor man's home
[35:47]behind the rich man's home. It's a jewel. It's a, was a gorgeous jewel.
[35:51]It was a gorgeous little place, but it is the size of a nut. If you make a noise, let's say
[35:58]it's a little burp or something, you don't want to, you'd hear it. It just, where she
[36:05]says that they had relations in a bathroom, I, first of all, the bath is an old Victorian
[36:13]bath. I, I could, I'm quite, quite small. It's tight for me. I put my brother in there
[36:21]to see what would happen. And it was, it looks like a blivet, which is a sausage in a, like
[36:25]a very tight, tight skin. So her, her description of whatever the two people were doing in the tub,
[36:32]that wouldn't work. The bathroom itself is so small, you can't lie flat on the floor.
[36:36]So it couldn't happen on the floor because you physically, physically can't. This bathroom
[36:40]is too small to even be on the floor. And then the kicker of all kickers is that because
[36:46]the bathroom was so small, I decorated it to try and make it look huge, which meant
[36:50]that I put mirrors the whole way around it. And what was so fun about being in there
[36:54]is that if you stood in the bathroom, you saw like a hundred of you, like you do if
[36:58]you were in, um, yeah, Alice in Wonderland or one of those things that you would see
[37:03]yourself going, stretching everything. And if the image, if you said you were, let's
[37:07]say you were, let's, let's say the telling the truth, she could say she was having
[37:13]sex with 5,000 generations of the Royal family because that's how far back you could see
[37:19]yourself. There is no way in God's green earth if that had taken place that this is
[37:23]something that you would miss because it's, you couldn't miss it. If you were standing
[37:27]there now, you'd see the whole of the FBI, the whole of the Department of Justice standing
[37:31]behind you. It's like, no.
[37:34]Did you, um...
[37:36]And also, let me just, also explain where the tap was in the bathtub.
[37:40]Oh, well, it's an old video. I had a tap. So if you were in, God forbid, if you were
[37:48]in the tub, my, this was the tub. My tap would be here. I think...
[37:54]No.
[37:57]So you think it's kind of logistically and physically not something that could have
[38:03]happened?
[38:04]Well, there's that. And there's just, Andrew would, he, he's so English. He's
[38:16]so, he, he had a tie on.
[38:25]Do you think there's any way it could have happened or no?
[38:27]No, absolutely.
[38:28]Okay, so...
[38:29]No way, no how, absolutely not. Wait, I haven't finished. So...
[38:33]No, no.
[38:34]Oh, sorry.
[38:35]No, no, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
[38:36]It is me.
[38:37]No, no, go ahead. Go, go, go.
[38:38]Sorry.
[38:39]Finish, please. Go ahead. Go ahead.
[38:40]Sorry.
[38:41]Can I finish?
[38:42]It's okay.
[38:43]Okay. When all this nonsense took place, where this whole story with the picture and
[38:50]the this and the that and this bullshit, I believe that this whole thing was manufactured.
[38:57]And I can point you to some potentially corroborating evidence of this. So when she gave the photograph
[39:07]to the FBI in Australia...
[39:08]Just, just to be clear, the photograph you're talking about, you're talking about the famous
[39:09]one where...
[39:10]Yeah, I have a, I have an image of it here.
[39:11]Prince Andrew's holding a and you're in the background.
[39:12]The fake. Just to be clear. So, on the back of that, and this is in the discovery,
[39:13]by the way.
[39:14]Yeah.
[39:15]Yeah.
[39:16]Yeah.
[39:17]Yeah.
[39:18]Yeah.
[39:19]Yeah.
[39:20]Yeah.
[39:21]Yeah.
[39:22]Yeah.
[39:23]Yeah.
[39:24]Yeah.
[39:25]Yeah.
[39:26]Yeah.
[39:27]I don't know which, I don't know which discovery it's in now. So, she wrote, she .
[39:35]She wrote in the back that it was a picture that was taken in January of 2000 and, in
[39:40]2000 or 2001, I don't remember.
[39:42]Okay.
[39:43]So now, in her handwriting that she's giving the FBI this picture, suddenly now it's March.
[39:48]So how do you go from her writing it's January to March? It's because it only, that's the
[39:55]only one that fit with the flight logs.
[39:57]that when she could be in London and this took place.
[40:01]The second thing is that,
[40:03]oh, I'm so excited to tell you this,
[40:06]there is a journalist.
[40:10]I know you guys are quite bored.
[40:12]The fake news is at work here.
[40:14]So there's a journalist called Sharon Churcher.
[40:18]There is a lawyer called Brad Edwards.
[40:26]These two, and there is a Southern District of Florida prosecutor
[40:30]called Villa Farmer.
[40:31]I would very much look forward to showing you
[40:37]the relationship between these three parties
[40:41]that created that story.
[40:45]Well, without putting aside the relationship,
[40:48]why do you think they created that story?
[40:53]I believe that story was created for the purposes of,
[40:59]well, there are multiple.
[41:00]The first one is financial.
[41:03]The second one is for the purposes of the CVRA case.
[41:11]The third one was for the serialization,
[41:15]both of her book and in the papers,
[41:18]for the story to attack the family.
[41:23]So I think when you were just asked about the photo,
[41:28]you said you actually thought the photo was fake.
[41:32]Do you think...
[41:33]Do you think it was just misdated,
[41:34]or do you think it's literally a fake photo?
[41:37]I believe it's literally a fake photo.
[41:40]Why do you think that?
[41:45]Well, first of all, I don't remember it.
[41:48]We'll stop.
[41:48]Right, okay.
[41:49]But the outfit I'm wearing
[41:51]is the outfit from my mom's birthday party.
[41:56]So, but you don't have any...
[41:59]Do you dispute that they met each other?
[42:03]Do you know whether they've met each other?
[42:06]I do not know that they met.
[42:07]Okay, so you not only...
[42:10]So you think the photograph is fake,
[42:11]but you also are not even positive
[42:13]they actually ever met each other.
[42:14]I am not.
[42:16]So you don't have a specific recollection
[42:18]of kind of being at an event or a party
[42:21]or your apartment or your flat in London
[42:24]with Prince Andrew and...
[42:28]Absolutely not.
[42:29]She doesn't know one way or the other.
[42:30]You understand that, yeah.
[42:31]I want you to know that the reason why...
[42:33]I'm not hesitant.
[42:35]I don't have any memory of that.
[42:36]So that's not the issue.
[42:38]The issue is,
[42:39]could Andrew have come to the house to see me
[42:41]or see Epstein and say hi and she had been there?
[42:45]Yes.
[42:45]I can't say that that hadn't happened.
[42:47]But what I can absolutely categorically say
[42:51]is that I never at any time said Andrew up
[42:56]to have relations with her
[42:59]or any other human being ever.
[43:02]And...
[43:03]I can categorically state
[43:04]that her characterisation of whatever may or may not have happened
[43:09]physically would just know.
[43:12]And plus, I was in the country,
[43:14]so all of that's just not conceivable.
[43:19]Did you attend social parties over...
[43:30]And again, I really now am focused on 2000 plus,
[43:35]so not the early years,
[43:38]where...
[43:39]Mr Epstein would host the party
[43:42]or be a big part of the hosting of the party
[43:44]and some of, or many of the young women who were masseuses
[43:48]would be invited to the party as guests or as entertainment?
[43:54]I certainly went to his house
[43:57]when he would have people who would be there
[44:00]that were, I call them,
[44:03]the way I would think of it
[44:05]and I would characterise it were his entourage.
[44:08]That's how I thought about it.
[44:09]And that certainly was in the later 2000s, yes.
[44:12]Did you attend any weddings of famous people with Mr Epstein?
[44:23]Again, I'm mostly focused on post-2000,
[44:27]but if there's something that comes to mind in the 90s,
[44:30]that's fine as well.
[44:31]A wedding?
[44:32]Weddings.
[44:34]With Epstein?
[44:37]I don't think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein.
[44:40]But I can't think of a wedding that I ever went to with him.
[44:44]Do you know,
[44:48]so you don't remember,
[44:49]you didn't attend President Clinton's daughter's wedding?
[44:53]I did.
[44:53]Chelsea Clinton's.
[44:54]But that wasn't with Mr Epstein.
[44:56]No, it was with Ted Waite, my boyfriend.
[44:59]Say that again?
[44:59]With Ted Waite, my boyfriend.
[45:01]Okay.
[45:02]Do you know whether Mr Epstein was at that wedding?
[45:04]He was not.
[45:06]And how did you, did you have a relationship,
[45:10]well, why did you get invited to that wedding?
[45:12]Because Ted and Clinton were very close.
[45:16]And why, how were you close to them?
[45:18]Like, what was the reason you were close to them?
[45:20]I met President Clinton,
[45:23]well, first of all, I went to the White House with Epstein once
[45:26]for, I think it was for a historical,
[45:30]like one of those benefits.
[45:32]And I met the President then,
[45:35]but like a thousand other people shook his hand.
[45:38]Then after that, I had a very good friend of mine
[45:43]that was known to be,
[45:46]the mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine.
[45:48]And Philip and the President were very good friends.
[45:51]And Philip was a very, and I were very good friends.
[45:55]And so I actually was introduced to the President
[45:59]post his coming out of the White House
[46:03]and became friendly with him because of Philip Levine.
[46:07]Because of what?
[46:08]Philip Levine.
[46:12]There's some names that have been publicly associated with,
[46:17]Mr. Epstein, that I just want to ask you if you know about.
[46:24]Piers Morgan.
[46:26]Is friendly with who?
[46:27]With Mr. Epstein.
[46:28]I have no idea.
[46:29]Never, I doubt it.
[46:30]Yeah, there's no trick question.
[46:32]I'm not suggesting that I know the answer to it.
[46:35]I'm genuinely just asking.
[46:36]Well, I would be astonished.
[46:37]I can't imagine they'd have anything in common either.
[46:40]How about, were you friends with Piers Morgan?
[46:43]I've met him.
[46:45]I've met him.
[46:46]I met him at an event.
[46:47]An event in Manhattan.
[46:51]I can't remember.
[46:53]More recently, so probably in 2012, 30, something in that.
[47:01]And we had a very nice conversation.
[47:03]So I remember that.
[47:05]I remember thinking, I don't know if I'd ever met him before,
[47:07]but I remember thinking how nice he was and how surprised.
[47:11]So I liked him.
[47:13]What can I tell you?
[47:14]So that's the only one, that's the only memory I have of that.
[47:17]I'm not sure if that's correct, but that's what I think.
[47:21]I don't have a correct or incorrect answer.
[47:22]No, I just want you to tell the truth.
[47:24]I just want to try and...
[47:25]No, no, but I want you to believe me, because I mean this.
[47:29]There is so much information in the public sphere about you and Mr. Epstein and others around,
[47:37]and some of it is definitely true and some of it is definitely false.
[47:41]Okay, all right.
[47:41]So when I ask a question, if I think that you're not being honest or that you're missing something,
[47:47]I'm not going to, this isn't got you, I'll say that to you.
[47:50]Did you ever meet JFK Jr.?
[47:52]I'm sorry?
[47:52]Did you ever meet JFK Jr.?
[47:55]Yes.
[47:55]When was that?
[47:56]I met him at Andrew Cuomo's wedding.
[48:08]No, Kerry, Kerry, Kerry's wedding.
[48:10]Kerry's wedding, who did Kerry marry?
[48:12]Andrew Cuomo.
[48:13]Yes, sorry.
[48:14]Okay.
[48:14]Andrew Cuomo's wedding.
[48:15]And when would that have been approximately?
[48:18]1990?
[48:18]1990?
[48:19]So before?
[48:21]1989?
[48:23]I don't, something like that.
[48:25]But would that have been before you met Mr. Epstein?
[48:29]Yes.
[48:33]Did you have any sort of professional or social relationship with John F. Kennedy Jr.?
[48:38]I fancied him.
[48:40]You would?
[48:40]I thought he was very attractive.
[48:42]Oh, you fancied him.
[48:43]Sorry.
[48:44]Besides finding him attractive and fancied him, did you have any sort of, you know, social relationship with him?
[48:51]I mean, we knew each other.
[48:53]I thought he was wonderful and fun and I enjoyed meeting him.
[48:57]But we went out, I want to say we had a dinner or two, but I was very excited, but that was it.
[49:05]And then Alan Dershowitz?
[49:07]I, what's the question?
[49:09]With Alan?
[49:10]Do you, say that again?
[49:11]What's the question?
[49:12]Do you know, do you know Mr. Dershowitz?
[49:14]Yes.
[49:14]Do you know whether he knew Mr. Epstein?
[49:16]Do you know the nature of their relationship?
[49:18]I definitely do know Alan.
[49:21]I want, I'm just trying to remember if I knew him.
[49:26]I, I'm trying to remember how I met him.
[49:29]I met him separate from Epstein.
[49:30]I don't remember.
[49:31]So that I have no recollection.
[49:34]I remember, I know that he was Epstein's lawyer.
[49:40]I don't know if they had any relationship prior to that.
[49:44]I don't remember.
[49:45]Oh, I do actually.
[49:46]I think they met at the same Martha's Vineyard through Lynn Forrester.
[49:51]I think that's what happened.
[49:53]I think that's it.
[49:55]And why do you think that?
[49:57]Um, because I just put it in my head.
[50:00]Okay.
[50:01]Um, and did you, did you, um, you said that Mr. Dershowitz was Mr. Epstein's attorney.
[50:07]Do you know whether they also socialized?
[50:10]Um, so my personal memory of when I, I remember two, I have two distinct memories with Alan.
[50:17]One is with him and his wife at the island.
[50:22]And I actually remember that.
[50:23]And I remember, I, I think going to his house in Boston, if he had a house in Boston, that's, there's only two times I remember.
[50:35]Did you ever observe, um, Mr. Dershowitz doing anything inappropriate with young women around Mr. Epstein?
[50:42]Never.
[50:42]Um, did you ever hear anybody, did anybody ever tell you that he had done anything inappropriate?
[50:47]Absolutely not.
[50:49]Did you ever, did you, do you know one way or the other whether Mr. Dershowitz ever got up on his feet?
[50:53]Did you ever have a massage at the island or any of the locations that, um, he was at with Mr. Epstein?
[51:01]I, I don't remember anything about him ever getting a massage.
[51:05]I don't remember, I have any record, I, I don't believe I ever even saw him in a bathroom.
[51:10]I have no knowledge of that.
[51:13]Um, I'm jumping around a little bit.
[51:21]Um, you mentioned, I think briefly, but the Tara Mar project.
[51:27]Yes.
[51:27]What is that?
[51:30]Um.
[51:32]I founded Tara Mar in, well, the idea of Tara Mar came, I think, in 2010.
[51:38]So, um, I want to just explain Tara Mar a little bit.
[51:43]So, uh, Ted and I bought a boat, well, Ted bought the boat.
[51:58]And, um, it, the basis of the boat was to do explorations and, um, sea, sea exploratory stuff.
[52:09]This really started because I have and have had.
[52:13]Since I was a child, a love of the ocean and everything aquatic.
[52:18]And, um, I, um, I've always been, I just, I'm nervous about the state of the ocean.
[52:32]When Ted and I, we worked with National Geographic and we did exploratory work.
[52:38]And the most exciting, well, we did many exciting things.
[52:41]But one of the most fabulous ones that we did was we looked for Amelia Earhart twice.
[52:46]I did two.
[52:47]I did two expeditions to look for Amelia Earhart as, as an example of an, of a exploration that we did.
[52:56]Um, and he, he had a foundation for the ocean.
[53:00]And, uh, we worked with Nat Geo.
[53:04]We worked with, um, Woods Hole.
[53:07]Um, we, we did amazing things.
[53:11]We bought, he bought the Remus 6000.
[53:13]So, when the plane went missing, the plane that went, was it Air France from Brazil?
[53:19]To Paris?
[53:20]Then went down.
[53:21]It was the Remus 6000 that found that plane.
[53:23]It was one of those deep sea underexplored.
[53:25]Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, I, I just, one of the things I did not want to give up was, uh, the, my love of the ocean and everything that we did.
[53:36]And Terramar, the, the genesis of Terramar came from that.
[53:40]So, Terramar obviously means land, sea.
[53:42]And the story of the ocean is that, um, Earth really shouldn't be called Earth.
[53:48]It should be called Ocean because three quarters is the ocean.
[53:50]So, and, uh, so, I wanted to not clash with anything to do with Ted because it was a bit awkward between us.
[54:01]And so, he took all the part of the ocean that was close to land, so within 200 miles.
[54:06]And so, I decided I would focus on all the part of the ocean that was outside of national borders, Terramar.
[54:12]And that's how that, that's the genesis of Terramar.
[54:15]So, what was the time period of that?
[54:17]That, I think, after I broke up with Ted.
[54:20]So, 2010, 11 is when it started.
[54:24]And then I ran it all the way up until whenever the Epstein drama struck.
[54:29]And then I just shut it down, not, uh, I shut it down because I didn't want what was happening to hurt any, the, the Smithsonian or Nat Geo or the, I just couldn't let everything be hurt by what was happening to me.
[54:47]Do you know, um, Jean-Luc Brunel?
[54:51]Yes.
[54:51]How do you know him?
[54:53]Um, I met him, so when I told you I was working for the European for my dad, um, and I was in charge.
[55:00]So, back in like 90, early 90s.
[55:01]Yeah.
[55:02]And I was, um, running a magazine.
[55:07]One of the things in the magazine is fashion.
[55:09]And so, uh, I was going to some fashion shows and I was looking for fashion sponsorship.
[55:17]And in fact, when I came to America, one of the, um, the first.
[55:21]One of the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron Perlman at, at Revlon, who was great.
[55:27]And, um, I met Jean-Luc through, just in Paris, like that, but, uh, socially, not.
[55:38]Did Mr. Epstein know him as well?
[55:41]Did you later learn whether they knew each other?
[55:43]I'm not sure I, I don't, he would have, Epstein had his own fashion situation, so he would have, I, I don't, he didn't meet Jean-Luc through me.
[55:51]Did you ever observe them together over the years?
[55:54]Absolutely, yeah, I saw them many times together.
[55:56]Did, did he, um, visit the island?
[56:01]Yes.
[56:01]Did he go to Palm, meet, go to Palm Beach House?
[56:03]Yes, he went, yeah, he went everywhere. I saw him in every place.
[56:06]Did, do you ever observe him, um, uh, getting a massage?
[56:11]Or, do you ever know whether he got a massage or maybe you didn't observe it personally?
[56:17]You don't remember?
[56:18]I don't, I don't, I mean, I don't, I never, I have no conscious memory.
[56:23]Of Jean-Luc, like, I, I would imagine that he did, but I never, I don't see him.
[56:30]How about, um, Mr. Weinstein, Harvey Weinstein?
[56:34]What would you like to know?
[56:35]Do you know him?
[56:36]Yes.
[56:37]Um, how do you know him?
[56:39]Like, I guess, when I say how do you know him, is it a relationship you had kind of separate from Mr. Epstein, or did you guys, did you meet him through Mr. Epstein, or, um, well?
[56:49]I wouldn't, first of all, I wouldn't say I had any type of relationship with Harvey Weinstein.
[56:53]Okay.
[56:54]In any context.
[56:55]Uh, socially, I would meet him because I would go to events that Harvey would be at, and also his wife was English, Georgina.
[57:02]And, uh, I was, I mean, friendly also would be a big word, more of an acquaintance, so we would see each other, and I would go to Miramax events.
[57:12]But there was a couple of people who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with, his primary producer, whose name is Mip, Meryl Poster, who I was friendly with, and, um.
[57:28]Did you know whether Mr. Epstein had his own relationship with Mr. Weinstein?
[57:31]He did.
[57:32]Did they, um, socialize together at the island or in Palm Beach or New Mexico?
[57:39]I never saw Harvey at any of Epstein's houses, so socialize, I don't know that they were friends.
[57:44]I mean, I can't see them together either, I mean, literally.
[57:48]But, um, I know that they certainly do that.
[57:51]I would, I would imagine, and in fact I think I have a memory, but I can't.
[57:56]Uh, that, yeah.
[57:57]That when Harvey was trying to raise money for whatever his business was called.
[58:04]I can't remember what his business was called.
[58:07]Maybe he went there because Epstein was good at raising money.
[58:10]I just don't know.
[58:11]But I never saw them.
[58:13]I don't, I don't recall seeing Harvey in any of the properties.
[58:16]Let's just go a few more minutes and take a break.
[58:20]I know it's after lunch, so.
[58:22]So, do you, we talked several hours ago about your father and his business a little bit.
[58:28]After your father passed, do you know whether Mr. Epstein was involved in your family business?
[58:36]That you know of?
[58:38]Absolutely not, in any respect.
[58:40]First of all, there was no family business left, to start with that problem.
[58:43]And the second one is, my family didn't like him very much.
[58:50]And they were busy dealing with their own problems, and there was no relationship whatsoever.
[58:56]I mean, he, my, my mum and he got along quite well, that was it.
[58:59]But that was, she's an old lady.
[59:02]He was nice to her.
[59:07]We're repeat, we're now, we're being a little repetitive, but you're confident that before you met Mr. Epstein, he didn't know your father.
[59:16]And so there's no, he wouldn't have done business with your father's companies in the 80s either.
[59:23]Absolutely not.
[59:24]I'm 100% sure of that.
[59:26]I never met him.
[59:27]I never saw him.
[59:28]I never heard his name.
[59:30]No.
[59:31]Nothing.
[59:32]So, there's been a lot of conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained like a list of people, like a book of famous people that he knew.
[59:49]Like a, it's called a black book or a client list or a list.
[59:55]Did you know of the existence of any such list?
[1:00:00]There is no list.
[1:00:01]We'll start with that.
[1:00:03]The genesis of that story, I can actually trace for you from its absolute inception, if that is what you're interested in.
[1:00:12]Well, first, you know, to be short, there is no list, there is no client list, nothing like that?
[1:00:18]No, there is nothing like that.
[1:00:20]That you know?
[1:00:21]That I, obviously, yeah.
[1:00:22]Okay, so you say you think you know the genesis.
[1:00:24]Well, go ahead, tell us.
[1:00:26]I'd like you to know that I have brought some supporting corroborative evidence.
[1:00:33]Well, tell me what it is too and then we'll get the cooperation.
[1:00:35]Okay.
[1:00:36]Go ahead.
[1:00:37]Is this, do you want to take a break here?
[1:00:38]Because this is a long story.
[1:00:39]This is a long story.
[1:00:40]Yeah, this is a long story.
[1:00:41]Let's take a break, yeah.
[1:00:42]Yeah, let's take a break.
[1:00:43]All right, the time is 2.03 and we're going to take a break right now.