[0:02]We're continuing the proper interview with Ms. Maxwell.
[0:07]The time is 11.07 a.m. on Thursday, July 24th.
[0:11]All right.
[0:12]So just picking up where we just stopped, so you have basically a break.
[0:21]Well, not a break, that's the wrong word,
[0:22]but your relationship with Mr. Maxwell, professional and other changes in 2003, 2004?
[0:29]Well, yeah, I mean, over the time that I stay with Ted,
[0:33]the more time I'm with Ted, the more distance I have with him.
[0:36]And then when the arrest, well, let's go back,
[0:42]whatever happened in 2005 and he became arrested in 2006.
[0:48]So when he's charged and arrested in what we'll call the Florida investigations,
[0:53]that's what you're talking about?
[0:56]I am.
[0:56]Okay, go ahead.
[0:56]So I had...
[0:59]I was not in, well...
[1:02]Well, were you part of that investigation?
[1:04]Absolutely not.
[1:05]Did law enforcement ever talk to you as part of that?
[1:07]Did you, like, the feds never talk to you?
[1:10]No.
[1:10]The FBI never talked to you?
[1:11]No.
[1:12]I never even received a phone call.
[1:14]Did you, so you didn't receive a subpoena?
[1:16]No.
[1:17]Did the state law enforcement ever reach out to you?
[1:20]No.
[1:21]As far as you know, did the government, either state or federal, subpoena your bank records
[1:28]or something?
[1:29]Did they subpoena anything from your financial life during that time, during that time?
[1:35]Not as far as I'm aware.
[1:36]Now, if they did, I don't know it, and I have no idea about that, to be honest, but I'm
[1:40]not aware of it, and I would say no, but maybe you guys do things that I don't know.
[1:45]So how did you learn of that case when Mr. Epstein was arrested, or did you know that
[1:50]something was happening before then?
[1:53]The first thing I knew was he had told me he was deciding to...
[1:59]He had told me he was deciding to redecorate the house in Palm Beach.
[2:04]It didn't surprise me.
[2:05]It was like a rolling situation.
[2:07]But that time, are you doing, are you, like, he tells you because he wants your help, or
[2:11]had your relationship changed by this time where you were no longer kind of acting as
[2:15]his general manager?
[2:16]No, I was, I was still around.
[2:22]I wasn't gone.
[2:24]I was with Ted.
[2:25]I was traveling.
[2:26]I wasn't daily.
[2:27]If you'd asked me where he was in any given time, I'm not sure I would have known then.
[2:31]I mean, it was...
[2:34]I felt like, I suppose the relationship moved into sort of like a long-term friend, family,
[2:44]you know, like, like I felt he had with Eva, if I'm honest.
[2:47]Yeah, okay.
[2:47]So, so he says to you he's going to redecorate the Palm Beach house.
[2:52]He asked me specifically which decorator he thinks he should use, because I had a lot
[2:56]of contacts with decorators, and he was not very good with people, and he was useless.
[3:07]So, maintaining relationships with people who worked for him, I'm not.
[3:13]So, anyway, so I recommended, I think I recommended, I can't be 100% sure because it's been a long
[3:23]time, but I think I recommended Mark Zeff at that time.
[3:26]Who?
[3:26]Mark Zeff.
[3:27]Okay.
[3:27]I believe.
[3:28]And, I don't know why.
[3:32]I don't remember.
[3:33]That's all lost to time.
[3:34]But, anyway, at some point, I think his mother had died now.
[3:40]I can't remember the timing of all of that either.
[3:43]Okay.
[3:43]But, I ended up in Palm Beach, and he had asked me to come and look at the swatches
[3:50]or whatever he was doing, because they had laid it all out over the house and various
[3:53]things, and I think he'd asked for my opinion.
[3:55]That's my memory of this.
[3:58]It may also be that Ted and I were going to Palm Beach because Ted had a golf match or
[4:02]something.
[4:03]There was a reason I was in Palm Beach.
[4:04]It wasn't so leaf.
[4:06]I don't, maybe that's not true either.
[4:08]I don't know.
[4:09]Okay.
[4:10]There's a reason.
[4:10]But, you know, sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was there.
[4:13]I don't know if that's part of that time or not.
[4:15]Or Ted went there and left me.
[4:16]I don't know.
[4:16]Something.
[4:17]Anyway, I was there.
[4:21]No, that's not how that happened.
[4:24]Anyway, at some point in that time, I saw all the swatches.
[4:27]At some point in 2005, I think that was.
[4:31]And then, I believe, I don't remember.
[4:35]I think I got a phone call, actually.
[4:37]I wasn't in Palm Beach.
[4:38]I think I got a phone call that there was a police at his house.
[4:44]Or something.
[4:45]There was a...
[4:45]And you got a phone call from him?
[4:47]Or you think you were just told by somebody that knew that it happened?
[4:50]Or don't you remember?
[4:51]Definitely not him.
[4:53]Okay.
[4:53]I think it would have been the house.
[4:55]So, when that happens, whenever it was, that's kind of the first time you know that Mr.
[5:00]Epstein's being investigated for...
[5:03]I didn't even know what...
[5:04]I didn't even understand.
[5:06]Okay.
[5:06]I didn't have a context for that.
[5:08]It was like, I didn't even know.
[5:11]I didn't know.
[5:12]Okay.
[5:12]I didn't...
[5:13]I didn't...
[5:14]I'm not sure even what I thought.
[5:16]I was like, that's weird.
[5:17]After you find out about it, what happens with your relationship with him?
[5:21]I asked him what was going on.
[5:23]And he said, not to worry.
[5:26]Nothing.
[5:27]Nothing.
[5:28]Take care.
[5:28]Don't worry about it.
[5:29]And I thought, well...
[5:31]And then it went quiet.
[5:32]I didn't...
[5:33]He didn't say.
[5:34]He didn't share.
[5:35]I wasn't part of it at all.
[5:37]I was off with Ted and I really just...
[5:39]But did he tell you...
[5:41]Well, why don't we come back to more specific...
[5:43]Specifics around that time period in a few minutes.
[5:46]I want to just finish this opening part.
[5:49]So, that case goes on.
[5:52]Ultimately, it ends.
[5:55]What was your relationship like with him during that case?
[6:01]When he goes...
[6:02]You know, when he gets sentenced?
[6:04]He told me...
[6:06]He said, listen, I'm going to jail.
[6:08]I was like, well, okay.
[6:09]And he goes, I'd like you to stay on board.
[6:12]It...
[6:13]To men.
[6:13]To manage the properties, the animals, this and that.
[6:16]And just stay put and I'll continue to pay you.
[6:20]In case there's any emergency, I don't trust anyone.
[6:22]And I was like...
[6:25]Well, when you said continue to pay you, had he...
[6:27]He'd never stop paying me.
[6:29]He'd never stop paying...
[6:30]So, even when your relationship changes, you're getting...
[6:32]Does the amount increase from the $25,000 or so a year in the beginning?
[6:36]Like, how much are you getting paid yearly?
[6:38]I think it ended at the time...
[6:40]Well, we had different payment structures and I'm happy to explain how that works.
[6:43]But I think salary-wise...
[6:45]If I'm right, it ended at around a quarter of a million a year.
[6:48]How much?
[6:48]Quarter of a million.
[6:49]$250,000.
[6:50]And when did it end?
[6:52]When was that?
[6:53]That it stopped?
[6:54]2008 or 9.
[6:58]So...
[6:59]9.
[6:59]When did he come out of jail?
[7:00]Whenever he came out of jail.
[7:02]Okay.
[7:03]So, and over the years, it increased from what you said was...
[7:07]You thought about $25,000 to $250,000.
[7:10]That's between, like, 90...
[7:12]Early 90s until 2009 or 10.
[7:15]And whatever, he stopped.
[7:16]Is that right?
[7:16]Yes.
[7:17]And how were you paid?
[7:19]W-2.
[7:20]W-2 from which...
[7:21]From what company?
[7:23]Do you...
[7:23]He...
[7:24]Like, I...
[7:26]He just moved me around over to this company there.
[7:29]I didn't care.
[7:29]Okay.
[7:30]And I didn't care and I didn't think...
[7:32]I didn't understand any rhyme or reason.
[7:34]It doesn't...
[7:34]I just...
[7:35]You know, whatever.
[7:36]Okay.
[7:36]So, when he's going to go to jail, he says,
[7:39]can you stay around and manage everything?
[7:41]Yeah.
[7:42]And do you do that?
[7:43]I do.
[7:43]Okay.
[7:44]And then...
[7:44]And then...
[7:45]And then we'll come back to that.
[7:46]I will not manage everything, no.
[7:47]I mean, there are other people at this point.
[7:49]My specific role then was very, very diminished.
[7:52]Okay.
[7:52]I reviewed the bill structure that came from the constructions.
[7:57]It was still made...
[7:58]The island.
[7:59]Okay.
[8:00]And wherever else I was going.
[8:01]Paris at this point.
[8:02]Because I speak French.
[8:03]I'm fluent in French.
[8:04]And also, my relationship with the French decorator was critical to him.
[8:08]And the French component part of that aspect was really vital.
[8:14]And so, you'd have to...
[8:15]You'd have to find someone who was...
[8:17]Well, actually, and the Spanish, trilingual.
[8:18]You'd have to find someone who was trilingual to...
[8:22]And that he trusted.
[8:23]Did you...
[8:24]To not steal from him.
[8:27]Did you...
[8:28]So, when he gets out of jail, between that time, 2009 or 10, and 2019,
[8:39]what's your relationship like with Mr. Epstein?
[8:43]Almost non-existent.
[8:45]Why?
[8:46]I had just moved on.
[8:49]And I just didn't want to have anything to...
[8:50]I didn't want the drama.
[8:51]I didn't want to be associated with...
[8:56]So, do you recall...
[8:58]When you say almost non-existent, does that mean...
[9:01]Doesn't mean it.
[9:01]Some phone calls, some visits, some trips?
[9:04]What does it mean?
[9:05]I don't...
[9:06]I don't think there were any trips.
[9:10]Oh, I don't...
[9:11]I don't think so.
[9:12]Where were you living during that time period?
[9:15]Or was it...
[9:15]Which time period?
[9:15]Between 2009, 10, and 2019.
[9:19]I was back in New York.
[9:23]So, you...
[9:24]So, you had no...
[9:25]So, you had phone calls with him on occasion?
[9:29]Yes.
[9:29]Well, I certainly did.
[9:30]Whenever there was any legal drama or any, like, serious press intention,
[9:35]I always called him to try and find out what was going on.
[9:38]Okay.
[9:38]Okay.
[9:39]And I did email him at that time for those types of details.
[9:42]I was like, what do I do?
[9:44]I mean, I was like...
[9:46]And then, when he's charged in New York, federally,
[9:50]how did you learn about that case?
[9:52]In the press.
[9:54]And had you, as far as you know,
[9:56]been contacted by law enforcement before his arrest?
[10:00]No.
[10:01]I wasn't in an indictment.
[10:03]No, I know that.
[10:04]But even as a witness or asking you if you would give documents or materials...
[10:08]I had never...
[10:10]Up until...
[10:11]Up until when my lawyers said that...
[10:16]I don't even know...
[10:17]I had no knowledge of them being interested in me.
[10:21]Honestly.
[10:22]I don't...
[10:23]I want to say...
[10:23]I don't...
[10:23]I don't want to say until he had died.
[10:26]Now, I know that my lawyers were in touch with
[10:28]some district of New York at some point after his arrest.
[10:33]I'm pretty sure that had to have happened, right?
[10:35]Okay.
[10:35]But my understanding is that they had not shown any interest.
[10:39]I know my lawyers went to see them once, I believe.
[10:43]And...
[10:44]Went to see him, meaning Mr. Epstein?
[10:45]No, them.
[10:46]The southern district of New York.
[10:47]Okay, the southern district of New York.
[10:48]Sorry.
[10:50]And that they had been in regular...
[10:52]In touch with them.
[10:53]And...
[10:54]But now you're talking about after Mr. Epstein died,
[10:57]or are you talking about before he died?
[10:59]I think...
[11:01]If you can remember.
[11:04]It's easily verifiable.
[11:05]My memory is that they were in touch with him when he was arrested.
[11:12]I don't know if anything happened until after his death, then after that.
[11:16]Okay.
[11:16]I don't think they saw them, met with them,
[11:19]the southern district of New York I'm talking about now,
[11:21]until after he died.
[11:23]I know that they were in regular telephone contact with them,
[11:27]and that my lawyers believed that they had been told
[11:31]that there was no interest in me.
[11:33]Okay.
[11:33]And were absolutely stunned when I was arrested.
[11:37]Maybe stunned is too big a word, but surprised.
[11:40]I certainly was.
[11:41]Okay.
[11:42]So, let's...
[11:45]Okay, so that's...
[11:46]That was a long description of what was a very long life,
[11:51]and that was very helpful.
[11:52]So, I want to go back and talk more specifically,
[11:54]specifically now about particular areas,
[11:58]and that was a very helpful kind of foundation for us.
[12:02]The first thing I want to talk about,
[12:05]you talked about earlier on about Mr. Epstein's financial success.
[12:12]What, you know, do you know how he,
[12:15]when you first meet him at some point,
[12:17]you say, I got this place for you to rent,
[12:19]and you can't afford it,
[12:19]and he laughs at you and says, yes, I can.
[12:23]What did you learn about his...
[12:24]his wealth and how he was...
[12:27]and how he accumulated his money?
[12:28]I can tell you what he told me.
[12:30]Yes.
[12:31]So, I...
[12:32]I know that he was hired from working at a private school,
[12:36]whose name eludes me at this point.
[12:38]Dalton.
[12:39]Dalton.
[12:39]He was working at Dalton.
[12:40]He was a math teacher.
[12:42]And he met...
[12:49]I think it was Ace.
[12:50]I'm not sure.
[12:51]He met someone from Bear who hired him
[12:53]because he was very good at math.
[12:54]And I believe that he...
[12:57]he then worked on creating a trading of...
[13:04]Just describe it.
[13:13]It's okay.
[13:17]He came up with some new type of trading system.
[13:20]Not a system so much,
[13:21]but as a vehicle, a trading vehicle.
[13:24]Okay.
[13:25]That I'm just escaping right now.
[13:26]And this is while he was working at Bear?
[13:29]At Bear Stands, yes.
[13:30]Okay.
[13:31]And whilst...
[13:33]And was this before you met him?
[13:34]Yes.
[13:34]So, this is what he told you?
[13:36]Yes.
[13:36]And what you learned?
[13:37]Yes.
[13:37]This is what he told me himself.
[13:39]And so...
[13:40]And then eventually he starts a financial firm?
[13:44]Do you know that?
[13:45]To be true or no?
[13:46]Jay Epstein and Company,
[13:47]have you ever heard of that?
[13:48]I think it's...
[13:49]Yeah, yes.
[13:49]So, hang on a minute.
[13:50]So, I...
[13:52]This I did not know,
[13:53]but this I have subsequently learned
[13:55]is that he had some problem
[13:58]or some issue at Bear Stands
[14:00]and there was some disagreement.
[14:04]He wasn't fired
[14:05]because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace
[14:07]and with Jimmy,
[14:09]at least by the time.
[14:10]I met him.
[14:11]But they were working with him
[14:12]and he ran...
[14:13]He had money at Bear Stands.
[14:19]His money, his client's money.
[14:20]We'll come to that.
[14:21]But he started...
[14:24]He told me himself
[14:25]that he started a business
[14:27]where he looked for stolen money.
[14:35]So, if somebody...
[14:39]I'm trying to think of some intelligent way to say it,
[14:45]but I can't...
[14:46]I can't think of anything.
[14:47]I've been with...
[14:48]Not really...
[14:49]I'll give it to you.
[14:49]So, let's say you have El Chapo.
[14:52]Oh, God.
[14:52]I don't know where he comes from,
[14:53]but anyway, we've got El Chapo
[14:54]and El Chapo's laundering money
[14:56]or he's working with the Sinaloa cartel
[15:00]and he steals money from the Sinaloa cartel
[15:02]and he moves it to wherever.
[15:04]So, he's got stolen money from the Sinaloa,
[15:06]Sinaloa goes to...
[15:07]This didn't happen.
[15:08]I'm just...
[15:09]Yeah, yeah.
[15:10]I'm just coming up with something in my head.
[15:13]And the Sinaloa says to Epstein,
[15:15]can you track down...
[15:16]Can you track down my billion dollars
[15:17]that the other cartels stole from me?
[15:21]And Epstein will go and find the billion dollars
[15:23]and will take a portion of the money
[15:25]that was stolen as a fee
[15:28]and give back the remainder.
[15:29]That would be on a percentage basis.
[15:31]No, but like what you just described,
[15:33]which I appreciate was just a hypothetical...
[15:34]Please, that was completely hypothetical.
[15:37]But that would involve like so two kind of drug cartels
[15:40]stealing from each other.
[15:42]Practically speaking,
[15:44]did...
[15:45]He was...
[15:46]More of a businessman, correct?
[15:48]So, here's how I think it started
[15:49]is that he had a girlfriend.
[15:50]It was always good.
[15:51]You're always to the girls.
[15:53]I guess there was a girl
[15:54]whose name will come back to me.
[15:56]Maybe not whilst we're here,
[15:59]but I don't know.
[15:59]Maybe.
[15:59]There's a woman.
[16:00]There's always a woman.
[16:01]And he...
[16:03]She was the daughter of a billionaire, for instance.
[16:07]And that billionaire,
[16:10]whatever his name was,
[16:11]had had some money stolen.
[16:13]And for some reason,
[16:15]there's a woman
[16:16]who introduced Jeffrey.
[16:17]And Jeffrey,
[16:17]I think that's how that business started.
[16:19]That's what I remember.
[16:21]And is that something he told you about
[16:23]or something that happened while you knew him?
[16:25]No, something he told me before I met him.
[16:27]And so, when you meet him
[16:29]and once you're part of his life
[16:30]in the early to mid-90s,
[16:33]what is he doing to make money that you see?
[16:36]Does he have clients?
[16:37]Does he have rich clients?
[16:38]Does he have famous clients?
[16:39]And how...
[16:40]And what...
[16:41]If he does have clients,
[16:42]what service is he providing them?
[16:44]He does have...
[16:45]Well, obviously,
[16:46]there's the one very famous client
[16:48]that everybody talks about,
[16:49]which is Les Wexner.
[16:50]And that was a very important client to him.
[16:52]And he...
[16:53]I think it's probably helpful
[16:56]to describe what I imagine...
[16:58]What I imagine, no.
[16:59]What I know to be true
[17:01]about what he managed for Les.
[17:03]And there's some bits that I'll be improvising.
[17:06]Yep.
[17:06]I want to just make you understand
[17:09]I was not part of Epstein's business world,
[17:12]except tangentially and obviously.
[17:15]So,
[17:16]what I'm talking about
[17:17]is what I observed
[17:18]or what I overheard
[17:20]or what I saw within the business,
[17:22]but I wasn't responsible
[17:24]for any of the client's money
[17:25]or anything like that.
[17:27]So, it's separate.
[17:28]Yep, I understand.
[17:28]Okay.
[17:28]Go ahead.
[17:29]So, with Les, for instance,
[17:31]it was really all-encompassing.
[17:37]It could go from
[17:38]the structure of the business.
[17:46]So, he structured or restructured
[17:50]the limited.
[17:52]I know that.
[17:54]And I'll come back to that
[17:55]because I also traveled with him in Les.
[17:57]And I was in business meetings with him
[17:59]on the plane when they were there.
[18:00]So, I could observe and I could hear some of this.
[18:03]And whilst I'm not necessarily
[18:05]terribly business sophisticated,
[18:07]I'm sophisticated enough to be able to at least
[18:09]have some knowledge of what was happening.
[18:12]All right.
[18:12]So, then he restructured the business.
[18:16]He restructured
[18:18]his entire personal finance.
[18:20]And would also
[18:24]handle all of the investment strategy.
[18:29]I don't know if it was 100%.
[18:30]Mr. Wexner, you're saying?
[18:32]Sorry, yes.
[18:32]This is all Wexner I'm talking about now.
[18:35]So, let's say you had
[18:36]a billion dollars to invest.
[18:41]So, you would, you know,
[18:42]in people's normal investment portfolios,
[18:45]you'd have, you know, some T-balls
[18:47]and this and that.
[18:48]But Epstein's strategies,
[18:50]they would be much more sophisticated than that.
[18:53]And so, just staying with Mr. Wexner,
[18:55]does,
[18:57]from what you heard or saw,
[18:59]is Mr. Epstein paid by him
[19:03]in percentages?
[19:05]Like, so there would be a deal
[19:06]and he would be paid?
[19:07]Or did you understand it to be like a flat fee?
[19:09]Was he a business partner?
[19:11]Like, how did you understand him to be paid?
[19:13]I think it was more a la carte.
[19:14]So, let's say,
[19:16]this is a conversation actually
[19:17]Epstein told me.
[19:20]So, oh,
[19:20]that illustrated for me.
[19:21]He said, if I saved someone
[19:23]five billion dollars,
[19:25]he would take a flat percentage
[19:27]of that five billion.
[19:28]He wouldn't have five billion back.
[19:30]And he would take...
[19:31]When you say you think that,
[19:32]is that because you heard him talking about that?
[19:34]Or you...
[19:35]It would be a combination of both.
[19:36]I certainly told me that
[19:37]and I heard him talk to people like that.
[19:40]I couldn't...
[19:41]Sorry.
[19:42]No, no, go ahead.
[19:43]No.
[19:43]Was there...
[19:44]Did he give...
[19:46]Did Mr. Wexner gift a property in New York
[19:48]to Mr. Epstein?
[19:49]So, we're talking about
[19:50]71st Street.
[19:51]So, I don't know
[19:52]what the business deal was.
[19:54]Because, again,
[19:55]I'm not part of his business thing.
[19:57]But I think
[19:57]what happened would be that,
[20:00]let's say,
[20:00]Les owed him
[20:01]in theoretically
[20:03]for his services
[20:06]a hundred million
[20:07]or whatever it was.
[20:10]He could have traded that
[20:11]against the property.
[20:12]But do you know that that happened?
[20:13]Or are you kind of...
[20:15]Do you remember
[20:15]whether there were conversations about that?
[20:17]Or are you just
[20:17]thinking that could be one way
[20:19]that it happened?
[20:20]I'm not sure.
[20:24]I'm not trying to be...
[20:25]I just don't remember
[20:25]if that's something I know
[20:27]or if that's something
[20:27]that I remember
[20:28]or if it's something
[20:29]that I subsequently know.
[20:30]I believe that to be
[20:32]what happened.
[20:32]But I don't want to tell you
[20:33]that I have...
[20:34]Does that make sense?
[20:35]Did Mr. Wexner
[20:36]and Mr. Epstein...
[20:38]Are you aware
[20:39]of their falling out
[20:40]that they ultimately had?
[20:42]I think...
[20:43]I wasn't there.
[20:47]And I don't know
[20:47]how it happened.
[20:50]I only know what
[20:50]Les has said in the press.
[20:52]So, you...
[20:52]So, you only know
[20:53]about their, you know,
[20:55]their falling out
[20:56]or whatever you want to call it
[20:57]from what you've kind of read.
[20:59]Not from any
[21:00]first-hand knowledge.
[21:01]You weren't there.
[21:01]You weren't part of that.
[21:02]Correct.
[21:06]Do you know
[21:07]somebody named
[21:10]Steven Hoffenberg?
[21:13]Only from the press.
[21:14]Okay.
[21:15]And so, you don't know
[21:16]anything about
[21:17]whatever business relationship
[21:19]they may have had.
[21:20]Mr. Epstein...
[21:21]Never spoke about him.
[21:22]Never mentioned it.
[21:23]I only learned about that,
[21:26]whatever that is.
[21:27]I don't even know
[21:28]what the truth is
[21:28]of that story
[21:29]from the press.
[21:32]How about Leon Black?
[21:34]Oh, I did meet Leon.
[21:35]I do know Leon.
[21:36]When do you remember...
[21:37]And again,
[21:38]I know we're talking about
[21:39]a very long time ago,
[21:39]but do you remember
[21:40]approximately when you met him?
[21:42]I could have met Leon
[21:49]not really.
[21:50]So, I might have met him
[21:53]nothing to do
[21:54]because Leon Black
[21:55]is very good friends
[21:56]with other friends of mine.
[21:58]I would have met him
[21:59]when I say,
[22:00]socially,
[22:01]I might have met him.
[22:02]How Leon and Epstein
[22:04]became really good friends,
[22:06]I'm not sure.
[22:07]But not through you,
[22:08]as far as you're concerned?
[22:09]Not through me,
[22:10]as far as I know, no.
[22:12]In fact, I'm sure
[22:12]that's not through me.
[22:14]Do you know
[22:15]what kind of work
[22:16]Mr. Epstein was doing
[22:17]for Mr. Black
[22:18]over the years?
[22:20]The same as what he did
[22:21]for Wexner.
[22:23]So,
[22:24]we just talked about
[22:26]two individuals.
[22:28]And again,
[22:29]I know,
[22:30]we're talking about
[22:30]maybe a 15-year time period
[22:34]or even longer.
[22:35]How many clients
[22:36]like that
[22:37]did Mr. Epstein have?
[22:38]Well, why don't I just
[22:38]give you the names
[22:39]that I remember?
[22:41]Say that again?
[22:41]Why won't I just
[22:42]give you the names?
[22:43]Do you want the names?
[22:44]No, sure.
[22:44]Go ahead.
[22:47]Elizabeth Johnson.
[22:48]Johnson and Johnson.
[22:50]When did,
[22:51]as far as you know,
[22:52]when did the relationship
[22:53]between Ms. Johnson
[22:54]and Mr. Epstein start?
[22:56]90s.
[22:57]90.
[22:58]90.
[22:59]I don't know.
[23:02]95, 96.
[23:03]So, during the time period.
[23:05]Yes, we're talking 90s.
[23:06]We're talking when I was there.
[23:07]When I was around.
[23:07]How did the relationship start?
[23:10]I don't know how he became
[23:12]that friendly boy.
[23:13]He ended up managing her money.
[23:14]I wasn't there.
[23:15]I mean, he,
[23:17]I really had a separate life.
[23:19]We really had separate lives.
[23:22]Except where they sank.
[23:23]But it wasn't from,
[23:25]It wasn't from me.
[23:25]From you.
[23:26]No, it was not.
[23:26]Okay.
[23:27]And what's your understanding
[23:28]of what Mr. Epstein did
[23:29]for Ms. Johnson?
[23:30]The same as what he did
[23:32]for Wexner.
[23:33]And when I,
[23:33]and you have to understand,
[23:34]it went down to,
[23:35]in tiny detail.
[23:37]So, I remember,
[23:38]this I remember,
[23:39]this is an actual memory,
[23:40]that he would make
[23:41]the contracts for the maids,
[23:43]for the people
[23:44]who worked in their homes.
[23:45]So, he would assist
[23:47]his clients at times
[23:50]with, you're saying,
[23:51]with even small things
[23:52]like contractual relationships
[23:53]He said no detail
[23:54]was too small
[23:55]because everything
[23:56]that affected how they lived
[23:58]and how they managed their life
[23:59]was something
[24:00]that he felt
[24:02]he was,
[24:03]if they wanted,
[24:03]would be responsible for
[24:05]to make sure
[24:05]that the contract,
[24:06]so that if you
[24:07]had to fire someone
[24:08]it wouldn't come back
[24:09]and sue you
[24:10]or if it,
[24:10]that sort of thing.
[24:13]Okay, so,
[24:14]Mr. Black,
[24:16]Mr. Werner,
[24:17]Ms. Johnson,
[24:18]who else?
[24:30]There's someone
[24:30]named Jess Staley?
[24:32]Yeah, I do know Jess.
[24:33]Who's that?
[24:33]He was
[24:34]at Morgan Stanley
[24:36]and at Barclays.
[24:38]What,
[24:38]do you know
[24:39]whether he and Mr. Epstein
[24:40]had a relationship?
[24:41]Well, not a physical one.
[24:44]Well, I didn't suggest it.
[24:47]No, I'm saying
[24:48]a relationship
[24:49]in the broadest sense of the word.
[24:50]Business, personal, both?
[24:52]Yes, both.
[24:53]Okay.
[24:54]And do you know
[24:55]when they met?
[24:56]No, I,
[25:03]no, I don't know
[25:05]when they met.
[25:06]But you can time it.
[25:08]Oh, I don't know
[25:09]that you can.
[25:10]No, I don't know.
[25:10]So, but what was
[25:11]the nature of their relationship
[25:12]as far as you know?
[25:13]I think they were friends
[25:14]and I think that they were
[25:15]business partners.
[25:16]Well, partners,
[25:16]too strong a word,
[25:17]but they were
[25:17]they did business together.
[25:20]So, did you,
[25:22]again,
[25:23]I want to stay focused
[25:24]on the time
[25:24]when you were the most
[25:25]involved in his life.
[25:26]So, the early 90s
[25:28]through early 2000s.
[25:28]And the beginning
[25:29]of the 2000s, yes.
[25:31]Did you,
[25:34]so we talked about
[25:34]four people.
[25:36]There's more.
[25:37]Were there more?
[25:38]Oh, yes, there were more.
[25:39]There was a lady
[25:39]whose name I just can't,
[25:42]can I get my book?
[25:43]Maybe I wrote them down.
[25:44]Sure.
[26:06]Epstein wouldn't
[26:07]really let me meet
[26:08]his clients.
[26:09]What book are you,
[26:10]what is that?
[26:11]I'd like some notes
[26:12]for the meeting.
[26:12]Okay, great, okay.
[26:13]Is that right?
[26:14]No, that's fine.
[26:14]I just was curious
[26:15]what we're looking at.
[26:16]Oh, okay.
[26:17]Not the birthday book.
[26:18]It's not the birthday book.
[26:19]No, we're going to come
[26:20]to that, I'm sure.
[26:20]Yeah.
[26:21]All right.
[26:21]I wrote down some names
[26:22]because I tried to make,
[26:24]I just want you to understand
[26:26]my memory's not as good
[26:27]as it was because
[26:28]when I was in Brooklyn,
[26:31]I was in the shoe
[26:32]for almost two years
[26:34]and I was on suicide watch
[26:36]for almost two years,
[26:37]which meant that
[26:38]they woke me up
[26:38]every 15 minutes.
[26:39]I was in the shoe for almost two years,
[26:39]for almost 15 minutes
[26:39]for the entire time
[26:41]and it really did affect
[26:43]my ability to...
[26:45]I understand.
[26:46]Okay.
[26:46]So I'm not...
[26:47]So you've taken some notes
[26:49]in anticipation.
[26:50]I just made some names
[26:51]in advance of it.
[26:52]And you're happy
[26:53]to look at them.
[26:53]No, go ahead.
[26:55]Okay.
[26:56]Well, funny you said it.
[26:58]First two names,
[26:58]one is Wexner,
[26:59]two is Staley,
[27:00]three is Leon Black.
[27:01]Okay.
[27:03]Glenn Dubin
[27:03]was a client.
[27:04]Who's that?
[27:05]Eva Dubin's husband.
[27:07]Okay.
[27:08]What was that?
[27:09]Was there...
[27:09]I mean, if you can...
[27:11]Do you know when...
[27:12]about when that relationship
[27:13]started?
[27:14]Whenever...
[27:14]Well, it wouldn't have been
[27:15]before they got married,
[27:17]for sure.
[27:17]So we're going to start...
[27:19]We're going to date that
[27:20]from wherever that was.
[27:22]And then Epstein
[27:23]was heavily involved
[27:26]with Highbridge Capital
[27:28]and the financing
[27:28]or selling of Highbridge
[27:30]to J.P. Morgan.
[27:32]Okay.
[27:35]Go ahead.
[27:36]That was a Dubin.
[27:37]Yeah.
[27:37]Okay, you're only
[27:40]looking for clients.
[27:48]All right.
[27:48]There's a woman...
[27:50]Well,
[27:50]there's a woman
[27:50]in Ohio.
[27:53]I just can't think
[27:55]of her name,
[27:55]but it will...
[27:56]I tried to remember
[27:57]it yesterday
[27:57]and I can't remember.
[27:58]So this is a good thing.
[27:59]You know,
[27:59]as you think of things,
[28:01]write it down.
[28:02]And if they have
[28:03]any other names,
[28:03]they'll ask you.
[28:04]But don't force it out.
[28:06]So you'll have time
[28:07]to think about this,
[28:08]especially today
[28:09]and this afternoon
[28:09]and overnight
[28:10]because we'll probably
[28:11]meet tomorrow.
[28:11]But you can find them.
[28:12]I mean,
[28:13]if you basically
[28:13]find a billionaire,
[28:14]female...
[28:15]So there's a woman
[28:15]in Ohio
[28:16]who's wealthy.
[28:17]Well, you can identify
[28:18]her yourself
[28:18]because she had...
[28:20]the largest
[28:20]Klein painting
[28:23]that was huge.
[28:24]So you can find her
[28:25]because it'll be
[28:26]in the museum.
[28:27]So that's her.
[28:27]So he...
[28:28]That was one of
[28:29]Mr. Epstein's clients.
[28:30]She was one of Mr. Klein's...
[28:31]Mr. Epstein's clients
[28:31]as well.
[28:32]Yes.
[28:32]Okay.
[28:33]Who else?
[28:36]Well,
[28:37]I think that there was
[28:40]people,
[28:40]other people
[28:41]that he would,
[28:41]like, assist.
[28:43]I know that he helped
[28:44]Lynn Forrester
[28:45]who became
[28:45]Linda Rothschild.
[28:47]She'll deny it
[28:48]and she has,
[28:49]but she...
[28:51]And when you say help,
[28:53]the same...
[28:54]Well,
[28:54]help in business
[28:55]or what will help?
[28:56]I have no idea
[28:57]what he did for her.
[28:58]I know he helped her
[28:59]financially.
[29:00]Her husband was
[29:01]the controller
[29:02]of New York.
[29:03]So,
[29:03]but I don't...
[29:04]Again,
[29:04]I'm not inside
[29:05]his business,
[29:06]but he would have...
[29:06]His...
[29:07]This notion
[29:09]that he blackmailed men
[29:11]would...
[29:12]We don't really
[29:13]have to go there.
[29:13]That he wasn't
[29:14]a businessman
[29:14]and that everything
[29:15]he did was a fraud
[29:16]or a funk
[29:17]or whatever.
[29:17]I don't believe
[29:17]that to be true.
[29:18]Why?
[29:20]Sorry?
[29:20]Why do you...
[29:21]So you say
[29:22]you don't believe
[29:22]it to be true,
[29:22]but show me
[29:23]why you think that.
[29:24]Just from...
[29:25]I know you've been
[29:25]talking about it,
[29:26]that he was very...
[29:26]He was very conscientious.
[29:28]He was very good at math.
[29:29]He was...
[29:30]Paid a lot of attention
[29:31]to his clients,
[29:32]but yes,
[29:33]you're right.
[29:33]There's allegations
[29:34]of blackmail
[29:35]or also that
[29:36]there was some level
[29:38]of fraud involved
[29:39]in what he did
[29:39]and you don't believe it.
[29:40]Why do you say that?
[29:41]Well,
[29:42]let me rephrase that.
[29:44]If there was fraud,
[29:45]I never saw it.
[29:47]What I saw
[29:48]or what I felt
[29:48]when I...
[29:49]I ran that office.
[29:51]I mean,
[29:52]ran.
[29:52]I didn't...
[29:52]I was responsible
[29:53]for the staff
[29:54]people worked.
[29:55]There were lawyers.
[29:56]There were accountants.
[29:59]I never heard him...
[30:01]I never...
[30:02]I never felt
[30:03]anything...
[30:07]icky.
[30:09]Did you ever see him
[30:10]blackmail a client?
[30:13]Did you ever see him
[30:13]blackmail a friend
[30:16]or an acquaintance?
[30:17]No.
[30:17]Okay.
[30:18]Well, so...
[30:19]I think when folks
[30:21]talk about blackmail
[30:22]and we can talk about...
[30:23]Sorry about that.
[30:24]We can talk about that now.
[30:26]There are
[30:28]a lot of allegations
[30:29]about him
[30:30]which we should talk about
[30:32]and we can do that now
[30:32]and the fact that he
[30:35]abused young women.
[30:36]Yes.
[30:37]Full stop.
[30:38]Okay?
[30:38]Which means
[30:39]the way that I'm defining abuse
[30:41]as has been
[30:43]widely reported
[30:44]is that
[30:45]that he would
[30:47]cause young women
[30:49]in high school
[30:49]to be recruited
[30:50]to come to his house
[30:51]and give him massages
[30:52]and as part of that
[30:56]he would be able to
[30:56]give them massages
[30:56]and as part of that
[30:56]he would be able to
[30:56]he would sexually abuse them.
[31:00]Yes.
[31:00]So, I want to talk about that
[31:02]but as it relates to blackmail
[31:04]the question is whether
[31:06]you're aware of any time
[31:08]that any of the individuals
[31:10]we're talking about
[31:11]and we'll talk about others
[31:12]receive massages
[31:16]from women who are under 18
[31:18]or may have been under 18
[31:20]and that whether there was any
[31:22]sexual assaults
[31:24]or sexual contact
[31:26]between any of the women
[31:26]who were under 18
[31:29]or may have been under 18
[31:29]or may have been under 18
[31:30]or may have been under 18
[31:30]or may have been under 18
[31:30]which would have allowed them
[31:31]Mr. Epstein
[31:32]potentially
[31:33]to blackmail them
[31:33]and say
[31:34]you have to continue
[31:35]to work with me
[31:36]or you have to give me money
[31:37]or else I'm going to
[31:39]tell the world
[31:40]that you did this.
[31:43]Right.
[31:44]I think this is a really
[31:45]good place
[31:46]to start
[31:46]with how
[31:47]this story
[31:48]began.
[31:49]Okay.
[31:51]So,
[31:52]even
[31:53]let's assume
[31:54]that that
[31:55]premise is correct
[31:56]that
[31:56]there is a
[31:56]He was doing that and he was going to tell everybody.
[32:00]Going to say, oh, you know, you had inappropriate relations with an underage girl.
[32:06]If you don't have video or photographic evidence,
[32:11]I'm not sure that even the FBI would take that, well, maybe today,
[32:15]but certainly not back then, would take that seriously.
[32:19]So you have to have something to say, hey, you know,
[32:23]look, I've got this video of you doing terrible things.
[32:27]And you need to.
[32:28]So I built those houses, many of them.
[32:33]I decorated those houses.
[32:35]I put the electricians in for the wiring.
[32:39]I never wired nor saw a single house that had any type of inappropriate,
[32:49]let's say, video surveillance.
[32:51]And I'll define that for you.
[32:53]Inappropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom, in a bedroom,
[32:57]in any private area of a home.
[33:00]In a room where there were massages given.
[33:04]Inappropriate.
[33:04]I would say I would define appropriate surveillance to be the front door of a house
[33:11]or potentially, as in 71st Street, the physical plant.
[33:20]Anywhere else would be grotesque.
[33:23]So I just want to come back to, I know,
[33:27]hopefully stay in the obvious.
[33:28]But when you say the houses, you're talking about his New York brownstone.
[33:35]Yes.
[33:35]You're talking about the island in the Caribbean.
[33:40]Yes.
[33:41]You're talking about the residence in Palm Beach.
[33:43]Yes.
[33:44]And you're talking about the ranch in New Mexico.
[33:46]Yes.
[33:47]Anywhere else?
[33:48]Paris.
[33:48]And in Paris.
[33:49]And so.
[33:51]And the plane.
[33:51]I saw some ridiculous thing with the plane that was, well, my joy, yes.
[33:55]I didn't hire any electrician on the plane.
[33:57]So.
[33:57]So unequivocally, unequivocally, from what you know, and you only know what you know.
[34:02]I only know what I know.
[34:02]But from what you know, you do not believe a camera exists or a video camera or a camera
[34:09]that takes pictures inside any of his residences.
[34:16]Correct.
[34:16]So even the appropriate cameras that you just talked about, which would be kind of exterior
[34:21]security cameras, did you know whether there was any cameras that you're aware of inside
[34:27]any of the locations?
[34:29]Never.
[34:29]With one exception.
[34:31]Okay.
[34:31]What's the exception?
[34:32]The exception is Palm Beach.
[34:33]Okay.
[34:34]And the reason, so in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen.
[34:39]He noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase, call it his briefcase.
[34:45]And he called in the Palm Beach police and they, the Palm Beach police, installed cameras
[34:55]on where he kept his briefcase.
[34:59]Where was that?
[35:00]Do you remember?
[35:00]At his desk.
[35:02]So the house on the ground floor was, he had a desk sort of in a corner.
[35:12]There was that camera.
[35:13]I think there was another camera.
[35:14]I think there were two or maybe three cameras.
[35:16]I believe only on the ground floor, wherever he may have had, maybe he had another office
[35:21]in the cabana.
[35:22]There may have been a camera there.
[35:23]When was this?
[35:25]I'm not looking for an exact date, but what time period are you thinking about when you
[35:28]said this?
[35:29]2003.
[35:30]I think I can date it for you precisely, actually.
[35:33]2003, I'm pretty firm on that date.
[35:35]And I can be firm because John Alessi, the butler, was fired in the end of 2002 and
[35:44]he was the thief.
[35:45]So aside from law enforcement installing a camera to try to catch somebody stealing
[35:52]money from Mr. Epstein, you're not aware of any cameras?
[35:59]The island?
[36:01]No.
[36:03]Sorry, just so we record.
[36:04]Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.
[36:06]That's okay.
[36:07]You were nodding your head no.
[36:08]So what about...
[36:10]There were no cameras anywhere outside of possibly things that I would consider, myself,
[36:16]I would consider normal.
[36:17]So the garage gate, something like that, a front door.
[36:21]Outside, like security cameras.
[36:23]Security cameras.
[36:24]And there were cameras inside in the 71st Street that did the plant, the physical plant,
[36:30]because it was a commercial building.
[36:31]So you had the whole...
[36:33]That's a real thing there.
[36:34]It's a commercial building.
[36:35]And there were cameras.
[36:36]There was one camera on the front door, internal, from the internal that did the front door,
[36:41]as I recall.
[36:42]But there were no other cameras inside the house.
[36:46]Did you ever...
[36:47]How about photographs?
[36:49]Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein or anybody around him take pictures of anybody in compromising
[36:58]positions with women or with anybody?
[37:00]Yeah.
[37:01]Did you ever hear, when you were present for conversations that Mr. Epstein was having
[37:09]or others were having, anybody accuse him of blackmailing them or of trying to extort
[37:16]them because of something Mr. Epstein knew?
[37:20]No.
[37:22]There have been...
[37:25]And you...
[37:28]In the discovery you got in the New York case...
[37:31]Okay.
[37:31]Yes.
[37:33]And in the civil cases that you've been part of associated with Mr. Epstein, have you ever
[37:42]been given or ever been told that video exists, like what we're talking about, or photos
[37:49]were taken that were compromising?
[37:52]So in both of those, I received no pictures or anything from the civil case.
[37:58]But in the criminal case, I received videos.
[38:01]I received videos of Epstein talking to women and stuff like that.
[38:05]I did get those.
[38:06]I also saw binders, photographs of women.
[38:13]Entertainment.
[38:14]I never saw any...
[38:16]I don't know how old some of these women were.
[38:18]There were definitely some of the victims from Palm Beach, the photographs of them
[38:23]in...
[38:25]In those photographs were the victims that were photographed.
[38:31]Were there any of the people you've talked about, like were there men with the victims,
[38:36]or were they just photographs of the victims?
[38:39]There was no men with these pictures.
[38:43]There was no client of his with those pictures.
[38:46]They would be stand-alone, for want of a better word, like modeling shots.
[38:54]If you were...
[38:55]If you were...
[38:56]Pictures that Epstein had with the girls, but not Epstein with the clients and the girls.
[39:03]Correct.
[39:04]Did you...
[39:05]I understand you said you got those in the discovery.
[39:12]Did you know those pictures like that existed?
[39:15]So right now I'm talking about photographs of victims or photographs of women that Mr.
[39:23]Epstein had on his computer or wherever he had them.
[39:26]Did you know that those photos existed before you got them in discovery?
[39:30]Some of them, absolutely, because they were in his house.
[39:33]Some of them.
[39:34]Some of these pictures were on his credenza or whatever, some pictures I'd simply never
[39:42]seen before.
[39:43]I mean, there was...
[39:44]I'd never seen some of them.
[39:45]Some of them I had, some of them I hadn't.
[39:46]I mean...
[39:47]Did you...
[39:48]So you're right, and I accept that having video or photographs of somebody famous or
[39:59]powerful in a compromising position would be good blackmail, but...
[40:05]So separate...
[40:06]Putting aside...
[40:07]What you've said about the fact that you don't know of any existence of those, did
[40:12]you observe over the years the folks we're talking about, or others which we can talk
[40:18]about, getting massages from young women?
[40:21]So I just...
[40:25]I think it's really helpful to understand a few things that has been missed in this
[40:30]whole mishegas.
[40:31]That's a technical term.
[40:32]I'll look it up later.
[40:34]Go ahead.
[40:35]Okay.
[40:36]Okay.
[40:37]Go ahead.
[40:38]I thought about this, obviously, a lot, and I've given it some...
[40:45]So this is the benefit of...
[40:49]Some benefit of what I saw and some benefit of what I now think, so just for clarity's
[40:53]sake.
[40:56]I think...
[40:57]I just want to say for the record that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of...
[41:01]Not all, but some of what he's accused of, and I'm not here to defend him in any respect
[41:06]whatsoever, and I don't want to, and I don't think he requires nor deserves any type of
[41:11]protection or for me in any way to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do, so there's that.
[41:19]However, the man I met and the man he became, I believe that there is a progression, and
[41:33]I don't think that the man I met is the man that he became.
[41:38]I believe he became that man over a period of time.
[41:41]Now, we can discuss anything you want, and I'll tell you everything I know, but I think
[41:52]somebody who has an interest, however you define that, in underage people is obviously
[41:58]someone who is unwell.
[42:01]But I don't think that you wake up one day and you start doing what he's accused of.
[42:07]I think this is something that you develop or you progress to.
[42:14]I...
[42:15]But, Glenn, before you get into all that, let's answer the top line question and then
[42:21]get into it.
[42:22]Right.
[42:23]Right.
[42:24]Okay, the top line question is...
[42:25]Did you ever see any of these people with underage women?
[42:26]No, no.
[42:27]I...
[42:28]So the reason I'm saying that is not to avoid that question, but it's because by the
[42:31]time, when you're talking in the 90s, I don't think he was there.
[42:37]I don't...
[42:38]This...
[42:39]That description, I think that this, what you're talking about, is a later version.
[42:43]Yeah, and...
[42:44]Does that... is that...
[42:45]No, I understand that.
[42:46]And I do want to talk...
[42:47]I'm not...
[42:48]So it's just...
[42:49]I'm...
[42:50]I think you need to separate the periods of time.
[42:51]Sure.
[42:52]Because it...
[42:53]This...
[42:54]One of the things that was definitely missing in my trial, and definitely missing from
[42:55]the narrative, is this notion, this everything happened, and he was always a bit...
[43:00]No, I don't believe that to be true.
[43:01]So I'm...
[43:02]That's...
[43:03]That's fine.
[43:04]And I do want to talk about that.
[43:05]I'm not...
[43:06]I'm not pushing that away.
[43:07]I'm just putting it aside for a moment.
[43:08]What Mr. Epstein did, and frankly, what...
[43:09]What you...
[43:10]What you...
[43:11]What you...
[43:12]What you...
[43:13]What you...
[43:14]What you...
[43:15]What you did, or are accused of doing, is one thing that we'll talk about.
[43:21]But what...
[43:22]Right now, what I want to understand is whether one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended
[43:30]his clients, or took care of them, or some would say blackmailed them, was by encouraging
[43:36]them to have...
[43:37]To interact with women, underage or not.
[43:41]So I think in the 90s, he may have encouraged them, but these were people who
[43:45]were in their 20s or 30s.
[43:47]So...
[43:48]So...
[43:49]So he would have a masseuse, right?
[43:50]And he did.
[43:51]Male and female, by the way, in the 90s.
[43:52]It's never been discussed.
[43:53]Both in yoga and everything, there were men as well as women.
[43:59]And so if he would travel, and I can show them to you, I've highlighted them on the
[44:03]flight records so you could see that there really were men that were also there.
[44:08]He would say, would you like to do yoga with Tito, or would you like a massage with this
[44:12]one?
[44:13]So...
[44:15]And I'd say, no, no, no, no, no.
[44:16]I would say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[44:17]That's really, that's really, that's really the thing about the field.
[44:18]I think the young people who would do yoga, they were doing it in their late 20s and professional
[44:19]masseuses.
[44:20]So...
[44:21]So I think there's a distinction.
[44:22]And I want to talk about actual individuals here, but...
[44:23]And I understand the distinction between somebody who's an adult and someone who's underage,
[44:28]but even with somebody who's an adult, did you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to
[44:35]do that, whether it's a client or somebody else?
[44:38]So with a...
[44:39]I certainly witnessed him, so if you were staying with him and you had a massage, that
[44:41]he would...
[44:42]Right.
[44:43]that he would often travel with a masseuse.
[44:46]He would say, hey, would you like a massage?
[44:47]And he did do that, yes.
[44:49]But would you or him or anybody else
[44:51]follow up with the masseuse afterwards
[44:54]to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual concept?
[44:57]I never did, no.
[44:58]So meaning, and coming back to the blackmail issue,
[45:00]there's nothing wrong with getting a massage.
[45:02]Of course not.
[45:03]Especially if somebody's obviously an adult masseuse.
[45:08]I'm not quibbling with that.
[45:10]My question is that there's a lot of accusations
[45:13]that one of the ways Mr. Epstein was successful
[45:16]was through this idea of blackmail.
[45:19]And yes, young women is a crime.
[45:23]Children is a crime.
[45:24]But even women over the age of 18,
[45:28]if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or whomever
[45:32]to get massages and have inappropriate sexual contact
[45:35]with the masseuses, that's a separate issue.
[45:39]Maybe.
[45:39]Maybe slightly nuanced.
[45:41]But did you ever know him to do that?
[45:44]I never did, absolutely, myself.
[45:46]I never heard him ask someone.
[45:48]I never heard that.
[45:50]I never, no one, in the entire time I was with him
[45:53]or friends with him or had anyone,
[45:55]no one ever reported to me or came to me
[45:57]and said that anything inappropriate happened
[46:00]or was upset by it.
[46:01]I never saw tears.
[46:02]I never saw ever any of that.
[46:04]And when you say no one ever reports to me,
[46:07]meaning like the masseuses or anything,
[46:09]of the house staff?
[46:10]Never.
[46:10]Or the clients.
[46:11]Or the clients themselves?
[46:13]Never.
[46:20]So let's, again, I want to stay,
[46:24]and coming back now to what you were talking about
[46:26]a moment ago with Mr. Epstein's kind of progression
[46:28]or getting worse, just staying within the 90s,
[46:35]what role did you have or what did you observe,
[46:38]which are two different issues but both important,
[46:41]with respect to recruiting masseuses?
[46:44]To come to either, I guess, Palm Beach or to travel
[46:47]or eventually New Mexico.
[46:51]What role did you have in that?
[46:52]He asked me to find masseuses for him.
[46:54]Say that again?
[46:55]He asked me if I could find him masseuses.
[46:59]Like as part of, like you said, you were his general manager,
[47:01]so as part of all your duties, that was one of them.
[47:02]And I did do that.
[47:04]So the first person I believe that I introduced him to
[47:09]as a masseuse was somebody called ***.
[47:11]She was, I don't know, mid, late 20s.
[47:15]Professional masseuse.
[47:18]Was this something that happened early on in your relationship?
[47:21]And again, I know we're talking about the 90s,
[47:23]but are we talking about early 90s or is this later on?
[47:26]So in terms of massage, I am a, I have a lot of injuries.
[47:33]I do a lot of dangerous sports
[47:35]and have had multiple serious accidents
[47:42]and walk without any...
[47:45]lameness because of physical therapy and massage.
[47:49]I've, that to me is a very, it's medicinal for me.
[47:56]So Epstein, whatever his massage situation,
[48:01]whatever, he loved massage.
[48:03]And if I met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or masseur,
[48:06]I introduced them.
[48:08]And he, because I got them and he asked me if I did
[48:10]and I said yes.
[48:11]And that's, I'm pretty sure that would have,
[48:14]well, I can't remember.
[48:17]93, 92.
[48:18]Okay.
[48:19]From the beginning.
[48:21]So, so go ahead.
[48:23]So then what happens over the next, you know, like,
[48:26]there's been, there's a ton of writing
[48:29]and a ton of, I guess, testimony as well,
[48:31]but also public reporting about how the recruiting
[48:35]was a very aggressive effort that you were a part of
[48:39]and that he was a part of and others
[48:40]to try to find more and more masseuses.
[48:43]What, is that, is that true?
[48:45]And what role did you have in that?
[48:48]That is partially true.
[48:50]Okay.
[48:51]So it is true that I found masseuses
[48:53]and he became more insistent.
[48:56]He, he, he liked new all the time.
[49:02]He got bored.
[49:03]So he would be bored with that masseuse
[49:05]and he would say, find me a new masseuse.
[49:07]I am the entire opposite.
[49:10]If I find someone that I like, I stay with them.
[49:12]I'm like, I don't want new.
[49:14]He would drive for new.
[49:16]So that is true.
[49:17]And in my effort to find them,
[49:19]I would go to massage.
[49:21]I would go to massage spas, like legitimate spas.
[49:25]We're not talking, you know, funky ones that people have.
[49:28]So, and I, if I got a massage from somebody in a spa
[49:32]that was, I liked, I liked.
[49:35]I asked them if they would do home visits.
[49:37]If they said yes, I would ask them to come to the house
[49:40]and he would see if he liked them or not.
[49:42]But these were people who worked in spas.
[49:45]I never, ever checked their age
[49:47]and I never checked their credentials.
[49:48]I never asked for a certificate.
[49:50]What?
[49:51]But just to be clear, you never thought anybody was under 18?
[49:54]I never crossed my, I never, no, that was never my,
[49:56]that was never a drive.
[49:58]What, what did you know at the time about Mr. Epstein
[50:04]requiring masseuses to be naked
[50:09]or requiring masseuses to either perform sexual favors
[50:15]for Mr. Epstein or to be there if Mr. Epstein masturbated
[50:18]or things like that?
[50:19]And again, I'm asking you about a 15 year period
[50:21]or whatever, 10 year period.
[50:22]So, I appreciate that's a very broad question.
[50:25]So, answer it in a way that, you know,
[50:27]addresses what you've been charged with doing
[50:29]but also what's been said about you.
[50:31]Okay, so I don't, the 90s I don't think that I ever thought,
[50:35]that never would cross my mind.
[50:38]I'm not sure that I thought about that in those contexts at all
[50:42]until his arrest and those papers came out.
[50:45]But I believe the subject of the question that you're asking me
[50:52]I believe started in the 2000s.
[50:56]In the 2000 time period?
[50:58]Yes, 2000.
[50:59]Why do you, why do you think, like what in your mind makes you think
[51:02]that that's the time that it started?
[51:04]I think because in December of 2001 he met ****
[51:09]and I think **** was responsible for that in its entirety.
[51:24]And the reason I believe that,
[51:26]so there's, she was a self-confessed having been sexually abused
[51:34]as a young girl and was trained, her words I'm quoting now, not mine,
[51:42]in all the arts of whatever that is,
[51:48]the sex program by a man called Ron Eppinger
[51:55]who was her pimp from when she was 14.
[51:58]I believe, or 15, I don't know.
[52:00]And in her book describes him training her to be what every man wants
[52:07]in all its manners, fellatio and everything else.
[52:13]I believe that then what happened was that he met her
[52:17]and she came as a masseuse to his house in December of 2001
[52:25]is when I think it started.
[52:27]Now what they're,
[52:28]what the relationship was on what happened with them
[52:31]in that early period of time, I cannot say.
[52:35]What I can say is that he liked her
[52:39]and she started to travel with him at that time period.
[52:42]I believe, I know then what happened was that she,
[52:46]when she first started to see him
[52:48]or first came into his orbit as his masseuse or whatever,
[52:53]she was engaged to be married and wearing an engagement ring.
[52:58]And was living with her fiancé.
[53:01]She broke up after a few months with her fiancé
[53:06]and took up with the local drug dealer.
[53:10]So let's say after four or five months of,
[53:13]in the time period when she was seeing Epstein,
[53:17]let's say we're now May, June of 2002.
[53:23]Or is it, okay.
[53:25]From whenever she hits the, whatever that is,
[53:28]so that's 2000, I think it's 2000, I'm sorry.
[53:31]I think it's when she met him, December of 2000.
[53:33]So then you go through, I don't remember, you'll have to look.
[53:39]Okay.
[53:40]I'm not holding you to exact dates.
[53:42]No, I mean I'm just trying to, I'm giving the,
[53:44]so then I think, so she takes up with the local drug dealer
[53:48]and she becomes druggy, druggy.
[53:54]Like, you know how druggies, what many don't.
[53:57]I live with a lot in Tallahassee.
[53:59]They become.
[54:00]They become even more unreliable than normal.
[54:06]And at some point, she's now working somewhere else.
[54:09]He stops seeing her because he doesn't like people who do drugs.
[54:13]And I think that not seeing her lasted five or six months
[54:17]and in that period of time, she got arrested for theft
[54:22]and she had a warrant out for her arrest.
[54:26]Now let's have peace together because there's peace I didn't know.
[54:30]She then called Epstein to have help avoiding,
[54:37]the warrant for her arrest.
[54:41]He sent her to Thailand to get a massage therapy license.
[54:49]This is the bit that I guess, this is the bit that I extrapolated.
[54:53]In the period of time from when she came back to when she left,
[54:57]he asked her to replace herself as his masseuse or whatever,
[55:01]whatever she was doing.
[55:03]And she brought the first replacement for her
[55:07]that would have been one of the accused's,
[55:11]in my case, I think, would have been
[55:14]and that, and then everyone who came subsequent
[55:18]simultaneously, if she wasn't the first, I don't know.
[55:23]Everyone, every single person who came to his house
[55:27]came through
[55:28]and her boyfriend, Tony, and then whoever else underneath her.
[55:33]And that is how it started.
[55:34]So before her.
[55:37]Tony Figueroa.
[55:38]Tony Figueroa is her boyfriend.
[55:39]Before her.
[55:41]So now, going back in the 90s,
[55:44]you don't believe that Mr. Epstein was abusing masseuses.
[55:55]Underage.
[55:56]Or overage.
[55:58]I mean, I think, I'm using abuse in the broadest sense of the word
[56:01]because I'm assuming that you said that you have no idea what the year,
[56:06]you always assumed the masseuses were overage, right?
[56:09]So when I'm talking about abuse,
[56:10]I'm even talking about an adult masseuse
[56:13]comes in to give a massage
[56:14]and is told to take off their clothes,
[56:16]told they're not going to get paid if they don't take off their clothes,
[56:19]basically suggested they had to watch him masturbate.
[56:21]Like, the things that have been publicly said about what he did.
[56:23]I'm not...
[56:24]For now, I'm not distinguishing adults or young or underage women for that.
[56:28]I'm saying abuse.
[56:29]I'm going to think that that would have been a habit.
[56:31]Okay.
[56:32]I'm going to say that the massage game was a habit.
[56:36]What does that mean?
[56:38]That means that I'm sure that he didn't suddenly start having relations with masseuses in 2008.
[56:45]That means that I'm sure that he didn't suddenly start having relations with masseuses in 2008.
[56:45]That means that I'm sure that he didn't suddenly start having relations with masseuses in 2008.
[56:46]I'm sure he must have had relations with masseuses.
[56:49]Who knows when.
[56:51]But you're saying as far as you...
[56:52]I use the word abuse.
[56:54]You're saying that as far as you sit here today,
[56:57]you would describe that more as consensual,
[56:59]meaning the masseuse did this willingly.
[57:05]I saw him with lots of masseuses.
[57:08]I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever.
[57:14]So, based on,
[57:15]my observation. I don't think
[57:18]that if you are being
[57:20]raped as now
[57:24]he's saying, this prolific, I just
[57:25]can't imagine why you would
[57:28]retire. It's not what you observed at the time.
[57:29]Not what I observed at the time, no.
[57:33]We're going to spend
[57:34]a little, we're going to spend more time on
[57:35]this issue because I think it's
[57:38]important
[57:38]but just going back to kind of
[57:41]the question
[57:42]that I started with in this area which is
[57:46]that it ties into the
[57:47]blackmail issue. So
[57:49]we talked about people that were
[57:51]his clients and you've mentioned
[57:53]President Clinton
[57:57]and then early on. Oh, I never said he was a client.
[57:59]I did not say he was a client. I'm saying you talk about
[58:01]his clients. Oh, okay, right.
[58:03]Puts his clients off to the side and then you mentioned some
[58:05]other people. You mentioned President Clinton, you mentioned
[58:07]President Trump
[58:09]early on. Who were other
[58:11]famous
[58:12]slash politicians? Who were other
[58:15]individuals in Mr. Epstein's
[58:17]life during that
[58:19]time period? So the early 90s?
[58:21]It was the 90s. Should we just
[58:23]Yes. Okay. Congressman McMillan.
[58:25]Say that again? McMillan.
[58:27]Okay.
[58:29]Henry Rosofsky who was the
[58:31]Provost of Harvard.
[58:33]Hang on, can I? Sure. You're looking
[58:35]at your notes. Go ahead.
[58:37]Go ahead.
[58:39]Joe Pagano, Jerry
[58:41]Goldsmith, Joe Roberts,
[58:44]Kenny Lipper,
[58:45]Dan Abramson,
[58:47]I don't know if in the 90s
[58:50]Tom Pritzker, Ace,
[58:52]Jimmy Cain, Lou Ranieri.
[58:55]I mean, there were...
[58:56]What about the royal family?
[58:58]No, he didn't know them in the 90s.
[59:00]What about the...
[59:02]What about Prince Andrew?
[59:03]Didn't know him in the 90s.
[59:06]Oh, well. Is that right?
[59:09]I wasn't there.
[59:10]I do not know.
[59:12]So, I don't want you to
[59:16]worry about exact dates. You're not positive
[59:18]about that, but you don't have a lot of time.
[59:19]I don't have a specific recollection of that being in the 90s.
[59:22]Yeah. Okay.
[59:23]I can date it for you, I think.
[59:25]But I can't give you...
[59:27]That's okay. That's fine.
[59:29]So, with respect to...
[59:31]We'll take a break in a minute to get some food.
[59:33]But just with respect to Mr...
[59:37]With respect to the individuals you just talked about.
[59:39]So, again, focus on the 90s. And so the people
[59:41]that I'm talking about right now, and we might add some
[59:43]names later. So we're talking
[59:45]about the clients that he worked with,
[59:47]which you've mentioned several of.
[59:49]I know that that wasn't exhaustive, but you've mentioned
[59:51]several of them. And then
[59:53]the kind of, what I called famous
[59:55]friends, but the prominent
[59:57]individuals that were in his life in the 90s.
[1:00:00]Does any stick out in your
[1:00:03]mind as having received
[1:00:05]massages? All of them.
[1:00:07]Henry Wazowski received a massage.
[1:00:09]And why does that stick out
[1:00:11]in your memory? Because
[1:00:12]I saw him in a bathrobe
[1:00:15]at 71st Street
[1:00:17]and he had received a massage.
[1:00:19]He died.
[1:00:19]And do you know whether
[1:00:21]there was any, whether
[1:00:23]the masseuse was naked during that massage?
[1:00:25]I wouldn't have any idea. Do you know whether he...
[1:00:27]I doubt it. He was like in his 80s.
[1:00:30]Okay, so, but
[1:00:31]do you know, notwithstanding his age...
[1:00:33]Oh, Minsky.
[1:00:35]Say that again? Minsky was another
[1:00:37]person. Do you know whether, for
[1:00:39]example, President Clinton ever received a massage?
[1:00:42]I don't believe he did.
[1:00:43]And what makes you say you don't believe he did?
[1:00:45]Well, because I don't, so
[1:00:47]that's a good question.
[1:00:49]Uh, the time
[1:00:52]that Epstein and President Clinton
[1:00:54]spent together, the only
[1:00:56]times, I believe, well, obviously they traveled.
[1:00:59]There was that, you know,
[1:01:00]they went on the plane 26 times or whatever.
[1:01:02]That would be one journey.
[1:01:04]So they spent time on the plane together, and I
[1:01:06]don't believe there was ever a massage on the
[1:01:08]plane. So that would have been
[1:01:10]the only time that I think that President
[1:01:12]Clinton could have even received a massage
[1:01:14]and he didn't, because I was there.
[1:01:16]And you mentioned that
[1:01:18]early,
[1:01:19]in the very beginning of the conversation, you mentioned
[1:01:21]President Trump in the early 90s.
[1:01:23]What did you observe
[1:01:25]as far as President Trump and
[1:01:27]his relationship with you
[1:01:29]or Mr. Epstein?
[1:01:31]Well, I just want to say
[1:01:33]for my relationship with President Trump,
[1:01:36]relationship's a big word,
[1:01:37]but I just want to say that I met him, or
[1:01:39]I believe I may have, because of my father
[1:01:41]in the 90s.
[1:01:43]So my father liked him very
[1:01:45]much, and he
[1:01:46]really liked his wife as well, because they were
[1:01:49]both Czechoslovakian, and as far
[1:01:51]as I'm concerned,
[1:01:52]President Trump was always very cordial
[1:01:55]and very kind to me,
[1:01:57]and I just want to say
[1:01:59]that I find, I admire
[1:02:01]his
[1:02:02]extraordinary achievement in
[1:02:05]becoming the President now, and
[1:02:07]I like him, and I've always liked him.
[1:02:10]So that is the
[1:02:11]sum and substance of my entire relationship with him.
[1:02:13]What about Mr. Epstein's relationship
[1:02:15]with him? I don't know how they
[1:02:17]met, and I don't know how they became
[1:02:19]friends. I certainly saw them together, and
[1:02:21]I remember the few times
[1:02:23]I observed them together, that they were
[1:02:25]friendly. I mean, they seemed friendly.
[1:02:27]Was that in social settings, or was that in private settings?
[1:02:29]I believe I only ever saw them
[1:02:31]in social settings. I don't recall any
[1:02:33]private settings.
[1:02:34]Have you ever been to
[1:02:36]Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach?
[1:02:38]I have.
[1:02:39]In what time period are you thinking about when you say yes?
[1:02:43]I don't remember when the President
[1:02:45]purchased Mar-a-Lago,
[1:02:47]so from whenever it turned
[1:02:49]into a club, I went
[1:02:51]there, and I
[1:02:52]loved going there.
[1:02:55]Did you go there
[1:02:56]alone, or with Mr. Epstein?
[1:02:58]Mostly alone. Many times I went there
[1:03:01]it was for an event, maybe once or
[1:03:03]twice. And do you know whether Mr. Epstein
[1:03:05]ever went there? I believe
[1:03:07]he did, but again,
[1:03:11]we really were,
[1:03:13]he didn't
[1:03:17]take me with him all the time, so he
[1:03:19]would go and, oh right,
[1:03:22]he never, I never,
[1:03:24]well, he did, from time to time,
[1:03:26]but he would go alone. I think he would
[1:03:28]maybe go himself to the spa. I certainly
[1:03:30]did. Did you ever observe
[1:03:32]President Trump receive
[1:03:34]a massage? Never.
[1:03:37]Did you ever observe,
[1:03:39]you said that you
[1:03:40]were, I mean, have you seen
[1:03:42]the, there's photographs,
[1:03:45]public photographs of
[1:03:46]Mr. Epstein and
[1:03:48]President Trump together?
[1:03:50]Yes. And there's photographs of,
[1:03:52]I think you're in some of the photographs.
[1:03:54]Yes. As well. Those all
[1:03:56]appear to be social settings. Yes.
[1:03:58]That's my memory, if there were
[1:04:00]social settings. I don't know,
[1:04:02]Epstein's, if he had, whatever
[1:04:04]the nature of the President's
[1:04:06]friendship, if you will,
[1:04:10]however you want to define that with Epstein,
[1:04:12]I was never witness. I think
[1:04:14]they were friendly, like people are in
[1:04:15]social settings. I don't,
[1:04:17]I don't think they were close friends
[1:04:19]or, I certainly never
[1:04:22]witnessed the President
[1:04:24]in any of,
[1:04:26]I don't recall ever seeing him in his
[1:04:28]house, for instance. I actually never
[1:04:30]saw the President in any type
[1:04:32]of massage setting. I never witnessed
[1:04:34]the President in any inappropriate
[1:04:36]setting in any way. The President
[1:04:38]was never inappropriate with
[1:04:40]anybody. In the
[1:04:42]times that I was with him, he was a gentleman
[1:04:44]in all respects. When's the
[1:04:46]last time you think you saw
[1:04:47]in person President Trump?
[1:04:53]It's
[1:04:54]been a long time.
[1:04:55]Probably not
[1:04:56]some time in the
[1:04:58]beginning,
[1:05:00]mid-2000s maybe,
[1:05:03]and it would only have been a social setting
[1:05:05]as far as I recall.
[1:05:07]And did you ever hear Mr.
[1:05:09]Epstein or anybody say
[1:05:11]that
[1:05:12]President Trump had done anything
[1:05:15]inappropriate with masseuses or with
[1:05:17]anybody in your world?
[1:05:19]Absolutely never.
[1:05:21]In any context.
[1:05:24]Do you know whether,
[1:05:26]masseuses from Mar-a-Lago Spa
[1:05:29]ended up giving massages to,
[1:05:32]private massages to Mr. Epstein?
[1:05:36]I'm not asking what you may have read,
[1:05:37]but at the time, from your personal
[1:05:40]knowledge, do you know whether that's true?
[1:05:41]I don't, I don't recall.
[1:05:45]Is it possible? Yes.
[1:05:46]But I don't remember, I don't remember that.
[1:05:49]So I don't want to, I don't recall that,
[1:05:51]but it's possible.
[1:05:52]Do you have recollection of you ever recruiting
[1:05:54]a masseuse from,
[1:05:55]uh,
[1:05:56]Mar-a-Lago Spa to give,
[1:05:58]to go give a private massage to Mr. Epstein?
[1:06:01]I've never recruited a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago
[1:06:04]for that, as far as I remember.
[1:06:06]I can't ever recollect doing that.
[1:06:08]Um, okay, so what, what I think we should do now,
[1:06:11]it's about 12.15, we'll take a, we'll take a break,
[1:06:14]um, and we will come back in a little bit.
[1:06:18]Okay.
[1:06:19]Okay.