[0:00]I'm going to ask everybody to put their name on the record here, of course.
[0:03]Good morning.
[0:07]My name is Assistant Special Agent in Charge Spencer Horn of FBI New York.
[0:12]Today we are doing a proper of Ms. Maxwell.
[0:15]The date is July 24th, and the time is 10.12 a.m.
[0:25]This interview is being recorded.
[0:30]And my name is Todd Blanche.
[0:31]I'm the Deputy Attorney General, and before we start formally asking questions of Ms. Maxwell,
[0:39]I'm going to put on the record everybody that's in this room in addition to me.
[0:46]Starting with you, Diego.
[0:48]Diego Pistana, Associate Deputy Attorney General.
[0:51]And then you heard from Special Agent in Charge Horn, Mark Beard from the United States Marshal Service is here as well, and then David.
[1:00]Yes, this is David.
[1:02]This is Oscar Marcus, and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
[1:07]My name is Thea Sapien, and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
[1:11]My name is Melissa Magidaw, and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
[1:16]Go ahead.
[1:17]And I'm Gillen Maxwell.
[1:20]Good morning, Ms. Maxwell. How are you?
[1:23]Good morning, Mr. Blanche.
[1:24]Good.
[1:25]Okay, so before we started recording, we met for a few minutes.
[1:30]I introduced myself, and we chatted.
[1:32]And now I told you that we were going to...
[1:33]We're going to keep going on the record.
[1:34]And before we start asking questions, I know that you've been given by your lawyer a copy of what's called a proffer agreement.
[1:44]And I just want to spend two minutes making sure that you understand what governs our conversation today.
[1:53]The most important part of this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement, meaning that by you meeting with us today, we're really just meeting.
[2:02]I'm not promising.
[2:03]To do anything, I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or any of the judges that have been assigned to your case to do anything.
[2:11]We're just talking.
[2:13]And so that's the most important part of this agreement.
[2:17]However, almost as important is the fact that what this agreement does for you is it gives you protection.
[2:24]So what it means is that the government cannot use what you say today against you, with some exceptions,
[2:32]which we'll talk about in a minute.
[2:33]But whatever you talk about today, you have what's called immunity.
[2:37]So that means that the words that you say today, we cannot use against you in a case in chief if we were ever to bring one.
[2:44]Okay?
[2:45]Thank you.
[2:46]There's exceptions to that.
[2:48]The most meaningful one of which is that if you say something today that's not true, that's a lie,
[2:53]we can bring a prosecution against you for what's called false statements.
[2:57]So I'm a federal officer.
[3:01]I have several officers here.
[3:02]Okay.
[3:03]The FBI is here.
[3:04]And if you lie to someone that's like me or like Special Agent Horn, it's a crime.
[3:10]So you have to be truthful.
[3:12]The other exception to this that doesn't necessarily apply directly to you,
[3:16]but if there ever was a retrial in your case or if there ever was a criminal case, a future criminal case against you,
[3:25]and your lawyer or you said something different or took a position that's different than what you said,
[3:33]say today, we can then cross-examine you or a witness based upon what you say today.
[3:40]So it's a little bit nuanced, meaning I can't use what you say against you in our case in chief.
[3:46]However, if you were to testify or if your lawyer called a witness to testify
[3:51]and they said something that is totally different than what you say today,
[3:56]we could then cross-examine you or the witness and say,
[3:59]Hey, do you remember when we met with Ms. Maxwell?
[4:03]She told us and then say what she said.
[4:07]Okay?
[4:08]I am scared.
[4:08]Okay.
[4:10]Other than that, I know you didn't have a lot of time this morning to meet with Mr. Marcus,
[4:16]but did you have a chance to go over this briefly with him?
[4:20]I did.
[4:20]Okay.
[4:21]All right.
[4:21]So I've already signed it, as has Special Agent Horn, and Mr. Marcus signed it as well.
[4:27]So you've got to sign it right where it says clients.
[4:30]Yep.
[4:32]And I will provide a copy.
[4:33]I will provide a copy of this to your lawyer so you guys have it.
[4:36]Okay.
[4:39]Thank you.
[4:40]So Ms. Maxwell, about a week and a half ago or two weeks ago,
[4:48]can you see the light blinking on there?
[4:50]On the Sony.
[4:57]There we see.
[4:58]Okay.
[4:58]We're just confirming that it works and it does.
[5:00]Ms. Maxwell, I guess about a week and a half or two weeks ago,
[5:03]Mr. Marcus reached out to me and said that you wanted to speak with,
[5:10]somebody from the government, about not only your case,
[5:14]but about everything that's been in the media and that's been publicized about Mr. Epstein in your case.
[5:21]That is true, and I did speak to him, and I did ask him,
[5:27]or did tell him that I would be very keen to talk to anyone,
[5:33]because no one from the government at any time ever,
[5:36]since the inception of the case.
[5:39]So dating back to the early 2000s,
[5:43]has ever spoken to me,
[5:46]and indeed, I believe, ever reached out to me at any time to even speak to me,
[5:51]and that includes up to when I was indicted and prosecuted.
[5:57]I believe that, or I understand, I should say, rather,
[6:02]that my attorneys at the time did tell the government
[6:08]that I wanted to speak to them,
[6:09]because I was very keen to meet with anyone
[6:14]so that I could tell, or have them ask me any questions.
[6:18]I've never had any problem to speak to anybody,
[6:23]and I offered myself, and I kept asking if they would meet with me
[6:27]so that I could talk to them, for whatever reason,
[6:31]but that was not happening.
[6:33]Okay.
[6:35]I have questions that I want to ask you, but I'm not,
[6:38]Okay. I have questions that I want to ask you, but I'm not,
[6:39]and if there's a path that, a question that I'm not asking
[6:43]that you think should be asked, I invite you to volunteer.
[6:46]Same thing goes to your lawyers.
[6:48]Just to start a little bit, very briefly,
[6:51]can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein?
[6:58]I know that goes back a while,
[6:59]and just very generally talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein
[7:03]from the time you met him all the way up until his death.
[7:10]I met Mr. Epstein in 1991.
[7:19]I had never heard of him or met him before,
[7:25]and no one in my family had ever either.
[7:30]My father never knew him, and I'll explain why that is the case.
[7:35]Where did you meet him?
[7:37]I had a girlfriend who, I was, back me up.
[7:42]I'd moved to America briefly in, well,
[7:47]I'd moved to America in 1990.
[7:52]Okay.
[7:53]I, well, moved is a good word.
[7:55]I'd come to visit America in 1990.
[7:57]I had been running my own company up until that time,
[8:02]which was a company called Maxwell's Corporate Gifts,
[8:06]and I had also been working for my father at the time.
[8:11]I'd had multiple jobs with him.
[8:13]I was, in 1990, I was working with a new company of his,
[8:22]a new newspaper that he was launching called The European,
[8:26]and I was in charge of launching a magazine to go with The European.
[8:36]And I was traveling at that time from England to America,
[8:40]because my father was looking to, well,
[8:47]he'd also bought Macmillan, the publishing house,
[8:52]and he had purchased the New York Daily News.
[8:56]And it's true to say that my father always wanted me to come back,
[9:03]you know, full time and work for him,
[9:05]but that's a much longer story.
[9:07]I don't think we need to go into it this time.
[9:09]So, but I was always working with him.
[9:12]There was no escaping, as it were, to work for him.
[9:16]So, in 1990, I had come over to New York to help look at some of that.
[9:25]He was having some advertising issues with the New York Daily News,
[9:29]and in fact, I met, I may have met Donald Trump at that time,
[9:35]because my father was friendly with him,
[9:38]and liked him very much.
[9:40]And I think it should be said that he also very much liked Ivana,
[9:46]because she was also from Czechoslovakia, where my dad was from.
[9:50]So, I don't remember if I did meet him or not in 1990 with my dad,
[9:56]but I knew that that's how I knew about Mr. Trump.
[10:00]And this was before you met Mr. Epstein?
[10:02]This was before I met Mr. Epstein, yes.
[10:04]So, I was already going backwards and forwards in America,
[10:07]and then in April of 1991, I came to New York.
[10:17]I can't remember for what reason, what business reason,
[10:21]but there was a business, something to do with my dad at that time.
[10:24]And a girlfriend of mine, who, an American, told me,
[10:30]I'd broken up with my long, I'd been engaged with a very long-term boyfriend,
[10:38]and we broke up.
[10:39]And she said, you know, as girlfriends do, I've got a guy for you to meet.
[10:43]And I was like, who is it?
[10:45]And she goes, he's been dating my sister, and you'll love him.
[10:49]He's looking for a wife.
[10:50]I'm edging towards 30.
[10:52]I don't need to tell you guys, that's a very important moment for a girl,
[10:55]to, like, think about important things.
[10:57]And I sure was really happy to meet him.
[11:00]And so sometime in 1991, we're in 1991,
[11:06]I met him at his...
[11:08]offices in, uh, on Madison Road.
[11:13]And, um, I think the most memorable thing I can think about
[11:18]is that he was wearing a tie, which he didn't often do,
[11:20]and it had a giant tomato ketchup stain on it.
[11:24]So I was like, wow, okay.
[11:26]Um, and that was how we met.
[11:29]Was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally,
[11:34]or were you, were you there for work-related things?
[11:37]I was just...
[11:38]Work-related reasons.
[11:39]No, I knew nothing about him.
[11:40]Okay.
[11:41]I, he just invited me to come and have tea.
[11:44]And I was like, tea, that's English, okay.
[11:47]But what was unusual was in his offices.
[11:49]So I went to his offices, and we met.
[11:52]And I found him very engaging, and, um, that was that.
[11:57]So, okay, so that's how you meet him.
[11:59]So, and again, I don't want to spend a lot of time, you know,
[12:03]on, on this particular issue.
[12:06]But...
[12:07]What happened with your relationship over the years,
[12:10]from the time you meet him in 1991 up until the time he, he passed away?
[12:15]Just give the highlights.
[12:16]Okay, the highlights.
[12:17]So, um, uh, I was looking for real estate for my dad to buy some,
[12:24]and Epstein told me that he was also looking to move from his apartment,
[12:28]and would I help him.
[12:30]And I'm actually sure I'm looking already, so I could look for him.
[12:33]So that's how it started.
[12:35]And then in 1991, my husband died.
[12:36]And in 1991, my father passed away.
[12:39]And I returned to New York after that,
[12:41]originally to come back and help with, uh, family businesses,
[12:44]which was, um, a commitment, you know.
[12:48]And then the debacle of my father's passing hit the family,
[12:55]and, um, our, and we lost all our businesses.
[13:00]And, and my family thought that it would be best if I stayed in America
[13:04]because of the intensity of the, uh,
[13:07]press and the drama surrounding my father's death in England.
[13:12]So I stayed.
[13:13]And, um, Epstein said, well, you can keep helping me.
[13:17]You can help me find a house, and you can decorate the house.
[13:21]And it gave me something to do.
[13:24]Were you in, um, a romantic relationship with him at this point,
[13:27]or just friends?
[13:28]No, just friends.
[13:29]And while we're just, uh, with respect to your father,
[13:33]there have been, um, multiple, um,
[13:37]questions about whether he worked for any intelligence agency.
[13:42]Do you have any knowledge about that?
[13:44]Um, I think, well, certainly my father had, um,
[13:48]background in intelligence during, because he was, uh,
[13:53]I believe he did in the Second World War.
[13:55]He was an intele-, a British intelligence officer.
[13:58]Um, I think that my sort of belief is that once you've been an intelligence officer,
[14:04]you're kind of always, it doesn't mean that you're formally employed.
[14:07]So I don't think my dad in any formal sense was, uh,
[14:11]you know, employed by the, any agency.
[14:15]But when you, um, are a very significant businessman
[14:22]and politician, as my father was,
[14:25]you meet with people all the time,
[14:28]and you, I guess, trade business or ideas.
[14:34]I think if that would fall under that definition,
[14:36]that's how I would think of it now.
[14:38]He certainly, um,
[14:39]I have no formal knowledge of anything specifically that he did in that thing.
[14:44]But if you're asking me if I thought that he did help people,
[14:48]the answer would be yes, I do.
[14:50]Did your father and Mr. Epstein have a business relationship over the years?
[14:54]I know we're maybe jumping around a little bit.
[14:56]They never met. So, um,
[14:58]As far as you know, they never even met.
[15:00]No, I, I,
[15:01]Well, you know they never met.
[15:02]I know they never met.
[15:03]Well, how do you know they never met?
[15:04]Thank you.
[15:05]Just categorically know they never met.
[15:07]Well, because after, um,
[15:08]in 1991, before my father died,
[15:12]he asked me if I'd met anybody interesting,
[15:17]or whatever, you know,
[15:18]because I was still trying not to be sucked back into the family business.
[15:23]And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein,
[15:25]and the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Epstein,
[15:27]because I believed at that time that Epstein worked for Best Earnings,
[15:32]and Best Earnings was one of our banks.
[15:34]And I knew that my father was friendly with both of us,
[15:37]and he was friendly with both Jimmy Cain and with Ace Greenberg.
[15:41]So, my dad, Cain was actually in New York, I think.
[15:45]I don't think I had this conversation on the phone that I was talking 30 years ago,
[15:51]so I'm not sure.
[15:52]But, um, if I, maybe I told him this verbatim because I haven't.
[15:58]I know that what my dad did, whether I saw it or whether he did it and told me later,
[16:03]that I don't remember.
[16:05]But, um, he called both Jimmy,
[16:07]Cain, and Ace Greenberg to ask if, what sort of guy he was,
[16:12]and was he even allowed to.
[16:15]Because, um, um, so, uh,
[16:19]So they never, they never met.
[16:22]He didn't even know who he was.
[16:23]But they had, they knew some of the same people it sounds like,
[16:26]or certainly the Bear Stearns connection was something that you knew that they had.
[16:31]No, well, he never had a connection with Epstein.
[16:33]He had a connection with the bank.
[16:35]I mean, Epstein,
[16:36]I'd never heard of him or knew of him before.
[16:39]And I certainly, if my dad had known him, right,
[16:42]when I said this is who he was, he didn't know who he was.
[16:45]So he rang Ace and he rang Jimmy to ask if it was okay that I even knew him.
[16:51]And I just want to explain, um, briefly why my father would even, um, do such.
[16:57]I've had, um, some interesting things that have happened in my life.
[17:17]And, uh,
[17:18]one of them was to be, uh, found on a IRA kidnap and murder list.
[17:26]And so after that happened,
[17:30]well, there were other related,
[17:33]I'm not gonna bore you with all the horrible things in that vein,
[17:37]but I, if you want the details, of course, I can.
[17:41]But, um, after that happened, my father wanted to put a lot of protection on me, obviously.
[17:50]And, um, I declined on the grounds that that would be a very life-restricting event.
[17:58]You're all in law enforcement, I know you understand this.
[18:01]And, um, so he had told me that, uh, you know,
[18:07]that I would be taking my life in my own hands or whatever.
[18:11]And so I think after that event and several others where I had to steal clothes and all that thing that one has,
[18:17]he was always quite protective of me.
[18:19]And so if I met somebody,
[18:21]he would try and, um, verify that they weren't gonna do anything hideous.
[18:28]And so in case you thought it was weird that he would call Jimmy an ace,
[18:34]it might, you know, you may think it is,
[18:36]but in my, from my perspective,
[18:38]he was just, because he was concerned,
[18:40]I was in America alone,
[18:43]and he had an opportunity to verify who this person was.
[18:46]And so I don't know if I was in the room with him.
[18:48]I don't recall.
[18:49]But I know that at some point,
[18:51]my father told me,
[18:52]he's fine.
[18:53]You can see him.
[18:54]Yeah.
[18:55]He's safe.
[18:56]Okay.
[18:57]Well.
[18:58]Okay.
[18:59]So we might come back and touch a little bit more on that at some point.
[19:02]But.
[19:03]Yeah.
[19:04]I went down a rabbit hole for a minute.
[19:05]That's all right.
[19:06]I just wanted to.
[19:07]No, that's helpful.
[19:08]Thank you.
[19:09]So, okay.
[19:10]So you're, you're now in the 90s,
[19:11]and you're friends with Mr. Epstein,
[19:13]your house,
[19:14]decorating the house or the apartment.
[19:17]Um, what,
[19:18]what happened with your relationship?
[19:19]Again,
[19:20]I know we're talking about a 35 year time period or whatever,
[19:21]but to the extent you can kind of at a very high level talk about it.
[19:22]Listen,
[19:23]I think just full disclosure is the best way to go at this point.
[19:24]Yeah.
[19:25]So in 1992,
[19:26]um,
[19:27]I slept with him.
[19:28]And I was like,
[19:29]whoa,
[19:30]that's it.
[19:31]We're going to be dating.
[19:32]Cause that's how I thought.
[19:33]And,
[19:34]um,
[19:35]and I kind of thought of myself in that moment.
[19:36]Like,
[19:39]because if you,
[19:40]I felt,
[19:41]if you slept with someone,
[19:42]that,
[19:43]that's how I felt.
[19:44]And,
[19:45]um,
[19:46]and I kind of thought of myself in that moment.
[19:47]Like,
[19:48]because if you,
[19:49]if you slept with someone,
[19:50]that you were then dating them.
[19:51]That's the world I came from.
[19:54]Um,
[19:55]but that really,
[19:56]well,
[19:57]that's how I thought.
[19:58]And,
[19:59]but we didn't sleep together again for,
[20:00]I don't know,
[20:01]really a significant period of time.
[20:02]I mean,
[20:03]I say.
[20:04]Years or?
[20:05]Um,
[20:06]I don't know if it was a year.
[20:07]I,
[20:10]I feel,
[20:12]that feels long,
[20:13]but maybe nine months.
[20:14]I mean,
[20:15]a long time.
[20:16]Okay.
[20:17]Um,
[20:18]I just want to go back.
[20:19]So,
[20:20]uh,
[20:21]I had found,
[20:22]um,
[20:23]um,
[20:24]a house for him to rent in New York.
[20:27]Because he had asked me.
[20:28]I'd been looking for one for my father,
[20:29]and I found one.
[20:30]Which was,
[20:31]um,
[20:32]a former Iranian embassy.
[20:33]I think it was.
[20:34]I think it belonged to the Iranians.
[20:35]Or the Iraqis.
[20:36]Someone.
[20:37]Or a girl.
[20:38]And,
[20:39]um,
[20:40]I didn't know that he had any money,
[20:41]really.
[20:42]And it was,
[20:43]like,
[20:44]I wanted to say it was $12,000 a month,
[20:45]which to me seemed like fortune.
[20:46]And I said to myself,
[20:47]I found this house,
[20:48]but I don't think you can afford it.
[20:49]And he said,
[20:50]um,
[20:51]I don't think you can afford it.
[20:52]And,
[20:53]he said,
[20:54]it's ridiculous.
[20:55]Of course I can afford it.
[20:56]We'll rent it.
[20:57]And that house came with,
[20:58]it was a State Department house,
[20:59]because it was,
[21:00]I think it was under sector station,
[21:01]or whatever it was.
[21:02]And I,
[21:03]I mean,
[21:04]I put it back together,
[21:05]but there were certain rules you couldn't paint,
[21:06]because you had to go back,
[21:07]and he gave it back,
[21:08]to the country that,
[21:09]so,
[21:10]he had this house,
[21:11]and I had,
[21:12]um,
[21:13]moved into a,
[21:14]10 foot by 10 foot apartment,
[21:15]because all of our stuff had been,
[21:16]uh,
[21:17]sold out.
[21:18]And,
[21:19]um,
[21:20]it was,
[21:21]um,
[21:22]it was,
[21:25]it was,
[21:26]I mean I had,
[21:27]I had some of the stuff had been,
[21:28]either lost,
[21:29]or frozen,
[21:30]or whatever.
[21:31]So,
[21:32]he became,
[21:33]and was my,
[21:34]my,
[21:35]my,
[21:36]my,
[21:37]my,
[21:38]my,
[21:39]my,
[21:40]my,
[21:41]my,
[21:42]my,
[21:43]my,
[21:44]my,
[21:45]my,
[21:46]my,
[21:47]my,
[21:48]my,
[21:49]my,
[21:50]my,
[21:51]my,
[21:52]my,
[21:53]So you said a minute ago that you had slept with him on one occasion and at the time you
[22:07]remember thinking that this meant you were in a relationship but then it didn't, you
[22:12]really were not in that type of relationship.
[22:13]Did that change between 91 and 92 or whatever and years forward?
[22:21]So I did travel with him.
[22:24]So I would go to his house in Palm Beach and he had a house in Ohio because of his business
[22:42]relationship with Mr. Wexner and I had to go and decorate and put that house together.
[22:51]When we traveled together.
[22:54]We stayed in the same bed, but not in, but I didn't.
[23:03]Go ahead.
[23:04]It's okay.
[23:05]Talk.
[23:07]So you, you stayed, so when you would travel with him to his houses in Palm Beach, Ohio,
[23:12]or even just traveling, if it was just traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed.
[23:21]So sleep in the same bed with him.
[23:22]Yes.
[23:23]Okay.
[23:29]Epstein told me that he had a,
[23:37]which, um, meant that he intercourse a lot, which suited in kind,
[23:46]because I actually do have a medical condition, which proves, um, being having a lot of intercourse.
[23:57]So what, what was your understanding of his heart condition and why that
[24:03]prevented him from having intercourse regularly?
[24:08]I mean, he liked other forms of,
[24:13]uh, well, let's come back.
[24:23]We're going to obviously spend some time, a lot of time on the actual conduct he was accused of.
[24:29]So we'll, we'll come back to that.
[24:30]So pick up where you, where you were talking about you traveling around with him.
[24:37]He rented the New York, um, former Iranian house until around 96.
[24:46]Um, that time you, I believe you said that he was,
[24:50]basically your life.
[24:50]Like you were with him pretty regularly.
[24:52]Well, I know, so I never was with him regularly.
[24:57]That is one of those misnomers.
[24:58]I mean, at the beginning I did see more of him, but I worked in his office.
[25:03]So I would go to the office and I would see him and I would count in my head when I would see him,
[25:08]I would count that I would, that'd be a day that I would see him.
[25:12]But I didn't, I never, ever stayed with him.
[25:14]I, I believe certainly until 93 or 94.
[25:21]What I didn't know was that I think he was still with his actual girlfriend,
[25:24]who was, uh, Eva Anderson then, who became Eva Jubilee.
[25:29]They had been together, my understanding, I think about 10 years.
[25:35]I'm not sure, but that's what I think, 10 years.
[25:39]And, um, I had understood from my girlfriend initially that they weren't together.
[25:44]And, um, Epstein himself had told me that they were not together, but I don't,
[25:48]I don't think that was true.
[25:50]In fact, I know it's not true.
[25:51]So they were still.
[25:52]They were still together up until, I think, 94 when, at some point in that period,
[25:57]when Eva met Glenn Dubin and they got married.
[26:01]I think in 94.
[26:02]I don't remember when they got married.
[26:04]But her, um, she was his best friend and his, everything.
[26:12]He told me that he always wished that he had married her and had a child with her.
[26:17]And I know that they, she was family for him, for his whole life.
[26:21]And I think.
[26:22]I think even, I'm not sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is true or not.
[26:27]When he came back from Paris and you arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the plane.
[26:33]Now, I think that either I read it in the, in the discovery that I received or I saw
[26:39]it somewhere, but even if she wasn't on the plane, there must've been some email communication
[26:44]where she was in Paris at the same time and going to fly back one or the other.
[26:48]I don't know which one was the correct version of that.
[26:51]But.
[26:51]So they were still obviously very close and remained throughout the entire, in fact, he
[26:59]was, saw her.
[27:01]And so I also know now, which I didn't know at the time was that he saw lots of other
[27:06]women.
[27:06]And I know that now because I can see, I can see it from the flight logs and I know
[27:13]it now because I can see from the emails.
[27:18]So, you know, from the case, what happened?
[27:21]Yes.
[27:21]I didn't know that.
[27:22]Along the way.
[27:22]I.
[27:22]At.
[27:23]Contemporaneously.
[27:23]I absolutely didn't know.
[27:25]So, okay.
[27:25]So just, and we're going to spend time on everything you're talking about, but just
[27:29]to kind of close out big picture, your relationship.
[27:33]So we're now in the late nineties, um, continue on with, again, staying high level to the
[27:40]extent you can about your relationship with him.
[27:43]So after, so my responsibilities increased with each acquisition that he felt.
[27:52]And each new project.
[27:54]So, um, I believe the first thing that he purchased the ranch in New Mexico.
[28:07]Okay.
[28:07]And so what he had tasked me with, I think that was purchased in 94, if I'm right.
[28:13]So he had tasked me.
[28:15]One of the things that we did was visit in my mind, I say every state, but it wouldn't
[28:20]have been every state, but many states to go look at real estate.
[28:24]And so I know we went to Montana.
[28:26]I know we went to Utah.
[28:28]I know it was, it was to go look at real estate was fun to be honest.
[28:33]And then I arranged for us to go to New Mexico and he just loved New Mexico.
[28:39]And then, um, I don't remember how the ranch happened.
[28:42]I don't remember that now it's lost.
[28:44]And then he ended up buying the ranch.
[28:46]And I think if I'm right, it came from one of the Kings who may have been the governor.
[28:51]I bought the ranch.
[28:54]And then I had to.
[28:56]Deal with that, dealing with that was extensive.
[29:00]I mean, the way that I thought of myself or the way that I think is the best way to explain
[29:05]how I view my role was as a general manager, because each property to me was like a hotel.
[29:13]So the ranch was very challenging because not only that, but it had BLM land.
[29:18]So to have maintained your BLM, you had to have, um, and I love animals.
[29:25]And so the first thing, you know, horses and.
[29:28]So I wanted it.
[29:29]If you're going to have a ranch, I like authenticity.
[29:33]So I don't think you should have a ranch.
[29:35]You're not going to have the things that make it special.
[29:39]So were you, were you, um, paid by him along the way during this time?
[29:45]I became salaried, um, at some point.
[29:50]My memory is that I got paid 25,000 a year to begin with.
[29:54]That's my memory.
[29:55]And maybe one.
[29:57]And then with each.
[29:58]As it became all of this, because I kept thinking I was going to the home.
[30:04]And, but.
[30:07]Did you, and financially you were not relying on him.
[30:11]The 25,000 or whatever amount you were paid.
[30:13]Were you relying on that money to live and his generosity to live?
[30:18]Or did you have your own, um, your own money?
[30:22]And again, I want to just make sure we're talking about keeping it between like the
[30:27]late nineties.
[30:27]You know, maybe I guess into a little of the two thousands.
[30:30]I just want to hit something on the head right now.
[30:32]There's a tremendous amount of reporting that said that I had a, um, thank you.
[30:38]A trust fund.
[30:39]I have never had a trust at any time.
[30:41]So how did you live?
[30:42]Did you live with, with, I mean, 25,000 is not enough to live on.
[30:45]No.
[30:46]So I had during this period of time, the secret serious fraud squad had come to see
[30:52]me in relation to my father's passing and to establish whether I had been involved in
[30:58]any way with his business or with any shenanigans.
[31:03]I've told the story many times.
[31:08]So if it's now somewhat hypocritical, but I'll tell you what my memory is.
[31:12]Cause I received a letter from them that said I can't get that my business and my memory
[31:18]maybe hip-hop before it was a PS.
[31:20]It's like, I used to know what it's custom.
[31:23]I had nothing.
[31:24]There was no, I was never involved in any of his business or whatever.
[31:27]So I was free.
[31:28]Were you?
[31:29]So, but.
[31:29]Are you.
[31:30]Are you.
[31:30]Are you.
[31:30]Are you.
[31:30]Are you.
[31:30]Are you.
[31:31]Are you.
[31:31]Are you.
[31:31]Are you.
[31:31]Are you.
[31:31]Are you.
[31:32]Are you.
[31:32]Are you.
[31:32]Obviously your, your father and your family had a lot of businesses.
[31:38]Is it because the money, whatever money or whatever equity was in the businesses just
[31:44]stayed with your other family members?
[31:47]No, there was no money.
[31:48]So my father was never attached to money.
[31:51]He was born a peasant, a real one, dirt floor, no shoes, no clothes, some clothes, but not
[32:03]on, you know, sorry, I didn't mean to say, um, and nothing.
[32:08]And he never, he was never into that.
[32:12]I mean, there were things that he had his extravagances.
[32:15]He loved his boat and his plane.
[32:17]So obviously you need money for that, but there was no, nothing else.
[32:20]And there was not a single penny that came to any of us at any time ever.
[32:26]Okay.
[32:27]So, so when you're talking about your life with Mr.
[32:31]Epstein in the nineties.
[32:32]Um, you, you're, you're not, you're, you're very different financially.
[32:38]You're very different financially positioned than he is, meaning he's giving you money.
[32:42]He's paying for your, when you fly, he, I assume pays for your flights.
[32:45]Yes.
[32:46]Okay.
[32:49]Okay.
[32:50]So you, you, I interrupted you when you were saying how you were functioning as general
[32:53]manager, you helped with the New Mexico ranch.
[32:56]Um, so did, did your role with him continue like that for many years or for how long?
[33:04]So I.
[33:05]I continued, um, in 2000, in, by 1999, our relationship had founded in.
[33:15]Why?
[33:19]Two reasons.
[33:19]We were never sleeping together again.
[33:21]So we stopped having sexual relations in 1999, not full sex.
[33:30]It didn't mean that we didn't still share a bedroom sometimes or whatever.
[33:36]Um, he had another girlfriend.
[33:38]He had what?
[33:39]Other girlfriends.
[33:40]Um, I definitively knew that it was over, um, after 9 11, actually, because, uh, we
[33:50]were both from New York and I don't know.
[33:53]We were in New York, I mean, 9 11, um, and it was a scary time if you were in New York.
[34:02]You didn't know, I didn't know.
[34:04]Nobody knew what was going on and he was in 71st street and I was, uh, in New York.
[34:10]And, um, he wouldn't see me.
[34:17]I asked me, his mom, who I was very close to, who was in the hospital at Lenox Hill,
[34:25]just asked me to look after her.
[34:27]And then I knew, as anyone did at that time, if you're not going to be there for someone
[34:33]at 9 11, you're never going to be there.
[34:35]So for me, that was the laying the second.
[34:38]And he had, um, another English girlfriend, actually, from 2000.
[34:46]Are you, though, still on the same page?
[34:47]Are you still on his, are you still being paid by him at this point?
[34:51]Yes.
[34:52]Um, okay, so, so go ahead.
[34:55]So what, what, what, at that point when you say you realized, kind of.
[35:00]Well, I mean, I'm talking about the, the, I had had, there was a, I had wanted to get
[35:06]married and have children.
[35:07]And, um, Epstein had encouraged me to believe that that would, I don't know about the, certainly
[35:17]by the mid, late 90s.
[35:19]I knew the marriage part was never going to happen.
[35:21]I had believed that maybe in 96, 97, 98, maybe.
[35:25]But then I realized it wasn't that.
[35:27]But I did think that we might have a child, which is what I had dreamed.
[35:32]Um, and, um, I realized.
[35:36]So, okay, so what happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your relationship with him?
[35:45]So.
[35:46]Give or take 2001.
[35:48]So we stopped having.
[35:49]Physicality.
[35:50]I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't friends.
[35:52]I certainly did stay sometimes in his room.
[35:55]I mean, friends with benefits, if you will.
[35:57]Just not sex.
[36:02]Um, I started dating.
[36:06]Okay.
[36:07]Um, and I met someone that I found very much in love with in 2003.
[36:14]Um, his name was Ted Waite.
[36:18]Um, Ted Waite, you may know as the founder of Gateway, the computers.
[36:24]And we had an amazing relationship that ended in, went on until 2010, I think.
[36:34]And I was with Ted from that time.
[36:38]Did you meet him through Mr. Epstein?
[36:39]No.
[36:41]Well, indirectly, I suppose you could say so.
[36:44]No, they never met.
[36:46]Um, I was, um, at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't.
[36:53]He was present in.
[36:58]Present in.
[36:59]Present in was my friend, not Epstein's friend.
[37:01]And, um, Epstein had flown him.
[37:04]Um, and there was a dinner, and Ted came to the dinner.
[37:08]So, I guess indirectly through Mr. Epstein because it was his plane, but I'd have been
[37:12]there anyway without him.
[37:14]I had, it was not the plan.
[37:15]Was Epstein on the plane when you guys flew?
[37:17]On that trip, yes.
[37:19]Oh, well, uh, yes.
[37:21]They, that, yes.
[37:23]So when you say that the dinner was, was what?
[37:29]Hold on.
[37:30]Okay.
[37:31]And so the, and you had flown over with, so who was on the plane for that trip?
[37:36]I don't mean everybody.
[37:37]When you said, so Mr. Epstein was on the plane?
[37:39]Yes.
[37:39]You were on the plane?
[37:40]Yes.
[37:43]That you can remember.
[37:43]I'm not, you know, you only know what you remember.
[37:47]Was President Clinton on the plane?
[37:48]Clinton.
[37:50]Um, he would have, he would have had his, uh, guy, Doug Vance, maybe Jason Cooper, maybe
[37:57]Trevor too.
[37:59]Oh.
[38:00]And you, and so why?
[38:01]So how do you meet, uh, uh, so, so why do you say that's when you met him and that you
[38:08]met him through Clinton?
[38:09]Well, it was a, I don't think Ted would have been there had it not been a, it was a President
[38:14]Clinton dinner and Ted came to meet with President Clinton, not to do with Mr. Epstein.
[38:19]Does that make sense?
[38:20]Yes.
[38:21]That's why I say that.
[38:23]Okay.
[38:23]So you're, you're, so in the time that you're dating, that you're with him to 2009, um,
[38:29]are you still working for Mr. Epstein during that time?
[38:31]So his, so, um, it would be true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard, he tried very hard
[38:38]to keep me to working for him because, I mean, this is a complex operation.
[38:46]I'm not talking about anything until just the sheer size of the projects I'm talking
[38:50]about, construction projects, the houses, the staff, it's a, it's a really significant
[38:57]job.
[38:59]And I ran all the projects.
[39:01]I ran all the properties, the staff in the properties, the management of the properties,
[39:06]that, and all the construction.
[39:09]And we're talking tens of millions of dollars that I need to do.
[39:14]I can't remember what the budget was for the construction on any given year.
[39:18]It's gone.
[39:19]But it, it was, these are very significant projects.
[39:22]And so that was what I did and I managed the budgets.
[39:27]Well, not, I didn't manage the budgets.
[39:28]I oversaw the budgets.
[39:30]So I would just make sure that.
[39:31]If you said you bought an, an, an air conditioning plant, I saw an air conditioning plant and
[39:38]I could call the island manager, did you receive the carrier, whatever, you know.
[39:47]When did Mr. Epstein purchase the island?
[39:51]I want to say 96 or 97, something like that.
[39:55]Okay, so we're going to come back and spend more time on the money with respect to Mr.
[40:00]Epstein and his wealth.
[40:01]But just so we can finish this.
[40:04]So in 2009, you ended your relationship with Ted?
[40:08]2009, 2010.
[40:10]Okay.
[40:10]I can't remember if it was 10, but I don't remember.
[40:12]So in that time period, what happens next with, as far as your relationship with Mr.
[40:16]Epstein?
[40:17]I don't have one with him.
[40:19]You don't have one with him, like you don't see him or it's just a different relationship?
[40:25]I did see, or maybe sort of once or twice, maybe even three times.
[40:29]I certainly went to his house once.
[40:31]For sure, maybe twice, but I was not seeing him.
[40:37]The only time that I was in touch with him was when the things happened, like things
[40:46]happening in the press that affected me or when the CVRA case was filed and there was
[40:51]all that rubbish that went out because I needed information because I didn't know, I didn't
[40:56]know anything about what was happening and I needed his help.
[41:00]Okay.
[41:00]Okay.
[41:01]A, to understand, I don't know if that makes sense, I'm going to dephrase that.
[41:06]I don't mean his help.
[41:08]I meant to have answers so that I had an ability to defend myself.
[41:13]That's what I'm talking about.
[41:14]I'm not talking in a way.
[41:15]So when does that relationship change?
[41:17]So you're working, you talked about when the physical relationship stopped and then
[41:23]you're still working for him or with him, managing his properties and being, serving
[41:28]as like a general manager.
[41:30]You then start your own relationship.
[41:31]You start your own relationship with another individual, with Ted from 2003 till 2009 or
[41:36]10.
[41:37]At what point in that whole period is there like more of a break where you're no longer
[41:41]acting as his general manager?
[41:42]So I wanted to have a full break when I started dating Ted and he was clever.
[41:52]I suppose it would be true to say that I sort of viewed Mr. Epstein at that point
[41:57]as sort of family, if you will, like someone I could rely on and I should have had him
[42:04]in confidence in myself.
[42:05]I can see that now.
[42:06]But at the time, given everything that had happened in my life, I thought that it was
[42:12]and I saw how he was with other people like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable with
[42:17]him and I thought this would be, and he always said I was like family.
[42:21]So he worked hard to maintain a relationship with me.
[42:27]He was generous with me.
[42:30]He never used the plane, which was very generous.
[42:33]He would check in with my mum, things that were meaningful to me in that time.
[42:44]And then, it may still not have worked, but his mother, Paula, had been in a very serious
[42:55]car crash and she had become sort of like a surrogate mother to me, sort of because
[43:04]my mum wasn't there.
[43:05]I could look after her the way that I would have liked to look after my own mum.
[43:20]So I became very close to his mother and she had been in a car crash and in 2004, I
[43:30]believe, it may have been five, I don't recall exactly, her health took a serious decline.
[43:39]And Epstein called me.
[43:41]And asked me if I could look after her.
[43:45]By looking after her, that meant organising her doctors, making sure she had new clothes,
[43:55]making sure her house was clean.
[43:56]Where was she?
[43:57]She lived in a retirement establishment outside of Palm Beach, outside of, it's West Palm.
[44:07]I wanted, I was going to say something like the Golden Girls, but it's not called that.
[44:11]I just don't remember.
[44:12]What is it?
[44:13]It's called, but it was an old age.
[44:15]It was a retirement home, if you will.
[44:17]Todd, I don't know.
[44:18]We've been going for maybe about an hour now.
[44:20]Do you think, is this a good time?
[44:22]Yeah.
[44:22]Yeah.
[44:23]So we'll take a, we'll take a break.
[44:24]Yep.
[44:25]All right.
[44:26]So we're going to take a break.
[44:27]The time is 10.56.
[44:29]All right.
[44:31]So we're going to take a break.
[44:33]The time is 10.56.
[44:35]So we're going to take a break.
[44:37]The time is 10.56.
[44:39]So we're going to take a break.
[44:41]The time is 10.56.