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And I know I would characterise, originally anyway, Mr Epstein as interested in him because obviously he's the former president. But I never saw him, other than that, I saw them be friendly on the plane, but I never, I don't believe, I don't recollect anyway, ever seeing them in any other context. I don't remember him at his house in New York. Like I said, I don't believe he ever went to the island. And I think that was just a, that was a story that ****** did. Do you know, one way or the other, whether their relationship continued without you? Like when you kind of moved on past Mr Epstein? I don't believe so. Why do you say that? You don't believe so? Well, I don't think they had a relationship even when I was there. I was, I, President Clinton liked me. And we got along terribly well. But I never saw that warmth or that, that warmth, like how you want to characterise it, with Mr Epstein and Mr Epstein. So I didn't see that. I didn't see any interest in, I didn't see President Clinton being interested in Epstein. He was just a rich guy with a plane. When, when the Southern District of New York case kind of became public and there was a search warrant of Mr Epstein's house, there was like a, there was some sort of painting or picture of Mr Clinton and, and like a blue dress that had been signed. Did you know, do you know where he got that picture or that painting? At first I saw it was in the press. So you never observed that in his brownstone? No. I thought it was hideous. What's that again? I thought it was hideous. And, but you had never, so you don't know sitting here today where Mr Epstein got it, the circumstances of which he got it? No. Do you know of any other? Other gifts or paraphernalia or art or pictures that former President Clinton gave to Mr Epstein? Um, no. I mean, did he maybe get him a gift? I don't know. I have no knowledge of that. And then, going back to the topic we were talking about before our last break, well, when you, you said something yesterday at the very beginning of our conversation. Um, that when you first met Mr Epstein, um, and you ultimately have sex with him, that he had, I'll use the word, erectile dysfunction, but he had issues having sex. Um. That's what he told me. That's what he told you. Yes. Okay. And, um, and then over the years, you said sometime in the 90s he started taking testosterone. Yes. I don't know if it was in the 90s. I don't remember when he started, but it, it wasn't, he had, uh, patches. Testosterone patches. Ah, okay. Um, dermal. Like on his arm? Yes. Okay. And then he was ridiculous because you shouldn't take more than one, but sometimes he had, like, well, I'm like, what are you doing? It's, like, unhealthy. Okay. Um, from what you observed or saw or heard, um, did he continue to have challenges sexually over the years, or do you think that whatever he told you, whatever issue he told you he had was fixed? I think it was a lie. Okay. He was lying about what? About his erectile dysfunction. Oh. You mean, you never, you don't think he ever had any issues? You think he just told you that? I, that is what I believe today, yes. But given, if any of the stories are true, he couldn't have had erectile dysfunction. I think he had a prior piss, for Christ's sake. Well, that's, well, that's one of the reasons for my questions. I mean, you're right. I mean, and again, we're, we're, we've talked about this a fair amount, but, um, what did, like, the stories of, of what masseuses underage and overage, have said about him is, are, you know, and what he liked, or what he demanded that they do, whether it's watching him masturbate, or, um, pinching his nipples, you know, kind of things that, that are, um, unusual, um, do you believe that? Like, do you, from what you saw, from what you observed, from what you did in your relationship with him, um, is that true? I, well, the bulk of what I read, he did not have sex. So that is consistent with what he told me, actually. And his masturbating, that is also consistent with what I knew myself. And, um, I'm going to use a, a, a bad word for it. Please. You can use whatever word you need. Yes. Blowjob. Okay. He liked blowjobs. Okay. That, I did observe. And he didn't seem to have any erectile dysfunction for blowjobs. But sex, he didn't have. So when I, uh, read the stories about the allegations of sexual rape, I find that challenging, because that was not true. So you're saying this wasfully입니다 빨ãwa¸wa¸ Street Pre jazz' Yes. So that you knew everything about him. Yes. So that's one leaning toward, um, his modus operandi. Dealing? Yes. Okay. Okay. Uh, themes? You know, like, uh— Yeah. You know what, like— You have divorced feelings with him? Or like, um, what's the game? Whatever. But I don't see. you like did you have conversations with any of those with women about what mr epstein liked or what would make him happy or things like that i don't have any memory of telling anybody about that i think i may have joked like saying oh my god you know like from a sex in the city scene that uh you know he's but not i never instruct the question you're asking me sorry let's just be clear did i ever instruct anyone how to pressure mr epstein your question no um and you said this earlier but i want to just you you kind of said it on on your own i want to ask the question just so i make sure that there's no confusion um when when you over the years um sorry can i just yeah of course i just want to say the idea that i would have to explain to a woman how to satisfy mr epstein is patently absurd because he clearly was able to explain himself he didn't need an interlocutor to explain what he liked he's been doing this obviously with this some version of this story his whole life and did not require any help from me then so did you did did you ever observe him having sex with a masseuse regular intercourse not a blow job nothing else where you either walked in or you were in the room i never saw epstein have sex with any person and so how about um oral sex did you ever observe a woman giving him oral sex whether you were in the room or walked in or i never saw anyone give epstein a blowjob no but you said earlier you you did see him masturbating in front of masseuses i don't know if i said that i don't know okay sorry i don't want let me ask a question sorry no that's fair that's fair i i said i saw him i'm sure i saw him in a what some people could in a sexual context so somebody could not have their clothes or topless i would say maybe i i could say that if i saw him having uh masturbating when someone was like i don't recall that i don't have a specific memory of it i'm sorry but no i'm not okay i didn't say that okay i don't understand that's fair sorry i'm not okay surely not trying to put words in your mouth no no that's that absolutely no it's fine so and you you said i think in passing maybe not in passing your story about you know whether whether other people who travel with him would get massages or so that would i'm when i say that i'm referring mostly to the island or potentially new mexico but also at his palm beach residence or even in new york do you know do you have a list of names in your head or um names that come to mind of of people that you know did get massaged um when they were with mr epstein no there's no list there's no list of people getting massages i don't have i can barely recall all the people i i can barely recall i i struggle to recall actual people that i met and i may have met a long time but i had even forgotten that about mr kennedy or when we brought it up yesterday it just came to my mind now so i don't have and there's no list there was never a list there was no or certainly none that i ever saw none i ever heard of none that i ever witnessed none that i there's no list there's never been a list and you never heard mr epstein talk about such a list never and you never heard mr epstein suggest that he had some sort of control over somebody because of what he knew about what they had done or had photos of them i never heard him now i never heard him ask questions about that i never heard him so i've been present many times with masseuses i never who presumably could or maybe did massage somebody i'm i'm not saying whether they don't i'm not just in the god i never heard him ask any question of any masseuse who may have given a massage to a friend it was on the island or in palm beach or anywhere else for that any details about that massage like does he have a funky foot no i never heard that weird and i think at one of the bricks today your lawyer may have showed you um something that just came out in the paper i think this morning or last night a letter that you that that is attributed to you um associated with this birthday book from 2003 that we talked about um yesterday is did you see that letter i did is that in fact it just looked like your handwriting or something you wrote so i don't remember the letter okay but it does look like my handwriting and it does look like my name and it looks like it could be real but i have no memory of writing that and i i don't remember it at all do you remember what the birthday book as they're calling it would it like look like like how it was put together i do what do you remember about it i remember it it was leather bound and i remember it being about yay big it was big right so you're saying it looks like it's like over 12 inches 14 15 inches yes it was like sort of like folio size i guess or something like that and like this and it was brown and thick but like this thick okay and um so just so you so i understand on heavy stock paper heavy stock paper like 14 inches high that looks about right and then around like well a4 a4 we had a4 because it was done on heavy stock paper but i can't remember if it was folio size paper or it could have just been a4 oh i see so it could have just been letter size or it might have been legal size yes heavy stock paper yes and the so the the folks that submitted letters were given the stock paper or how were the letters or did you like glue or something the letters to the stock paper every which way some were given a paper and they did their own thing some would send me some scrap of paper and i would put it on the thing some i didn't get because they get straight to epstein and i was just told to put them in like i said and how was it bound it went to a professional binder who did it like a book that you'd see in the library so like like the glue that keeps a regular book a novel that you would read together it was bound that way i believe so i don't think it was stitched but i don't remember i mean it was professionally done by a professional bookbinder and then after you presented it or after it was presented to him when he turned 50 did you see the leather bound book did he keep it somewhere in particular it was in his bookcase in 71st street in manhattan in manhattan and did you see it over the years and until you stopped going to the brownstone i saw it i know i did see it because it was right behind his desk and after i stopped going i don't know what happened to it um do you know do you remember being told or knowing where the book is now no but i when i received discovery those pages i assumed that it had been found when uh either new york or the island was searched and i assumed that the southern district of new york had it but i think you said yesterday but just to go over it again in case you remember anything differently you recall seeing some of the letters in discovery i do but you don't recall kind of seeing the leather book start to finish but remember i didn't see all discovery because they were very clever about you know i didn't receive all discovery period and um in fact very important items were not given to me at all including witness testimony from grand jury so whether so you don't know one way or the other or whether it was part of discovery you just know that you didn't get it it wasn't part of discovery that was given to you correct but there's i i don't i'm absolutely sure that the southern district of new york hid very important pieces of evidence from me and i assumed that they leaked it because where else would it be if that's what it is if it's true so i've just so i put i'll say it to you i've talked a little bit more about it um i said to you yesterday that the purpose of what we did yesterday and today was was exactly what we did which is to have a conversation about about about mr epstein and about you and um i think it's a it's very challenging to talk about everything we talked about and you know one and a half days or in just a period of hours so i'll talk to to mr marcus about kind of what we're going to do next if anything um there's no and i don't i'm not being um coy or i just i don't know yet i don't know so we i have a lot of um we have a some some work to do um we'll do it with your lawyers to to accept we have questions or follow up um and um this has been very helpful i i i think it's it was you you know who kind of said you wanted to talk but but it we we gladly accept it so so i do appreciate you um being willing to meet with us um and and i i expect that we'll that we'll be in touch so this concludes the recorded proper interview of miss maxwell the time is 12 0 5 p.m on friday july 25th