Court Records
We are continuing with the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The time is now 3.10 p.m. Thursday, July 24th. Colleagues alerted me to a couple questions I think I may have forgotten to ask you. One is, we talked a few minutes ago about this birthday book that there's been press about. I understand you don't remember anything with President Trump, or a lot about the book anyway. Do you remember asking President Trump to submit a letter for that? I do not. And do you remember, would you have been the one to do that, or would somebody else have done that? I did ask some people. I don't remember Mr. Trump, I don't remember who I did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself directly. So it could have happened that way. If it happened at all. You mentioned Ehud Barak. Yes. What was his involvement? This would have been in the later 2000s, so I do not know how they met, but I do know that they, I don't know if friendly would be the right word, I don't know that, but I know that they saw each other. And only because my father, you know, anything that touched. Which is Israel, or the state of Israel, I'm always interested in, because my father loved Israel, and so I pay attention to it, and we have ties to Israel. When you said it was later, though. Ties meaning friends and family, relations. Was Mr. Barak, do you know what the nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein? I don't. Do you know, were you ever with them? Were you ever together? I think I met, I have a memory of meeting Ehud, but I don't know if he was with Epstein, or, I don't remember. I just know that I did see him, and I'm trying, struggling to remember the context around it. But if I, I'm sure it happened, but it must have been very brief, because I don't have any serious memory of it. Any, like, deep memory of it. And maybe this is obvious. And maybe it comes also because I've read it in the press, but maybe something that brought it to my memory. So that's also, I mean, I'm also, I think the press has been very contaminating, so I just, it's hard sometimes to separate those stories from, you know, your memory, sometimes. Do you know, did she... I didn't know she was a d***ist. Oh, okay. I'm reading something that says she was a d***ist. Okay. Please don't assume that that's correct. Okay. It's based upon my words. Okay. Did she ever travel with you and or Mr. Epstein? I think, yeah, she did, actually, I think. She might have been one of Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point. What, again, I know we're talking about time periods that are vast. What time period would that have been? Like, after you, like, since 2000? I want to say it could be the 90s. It could be the 90s. I don't know. But, I mean, listen, there are people that pop out of the woodwork all the time. I just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend in 93 and 94. So, I mean, he obviously was very busy. Where's she flying? Well, there's that. Did, someone named Mark Middleton? Yes. Who's that? He was in the Mr. Clinton's administration, President Clinton's administration, I think. And how do you, do you know him? Well, I met him, and that is, I met him through Mr. Epstein. And do you, was he, from what you observed, was he a friend or business acquaintance of Mr. Epstein? Um, I mean, I only saw him a handful of times, but I did see him with him. I mean, he seemed friendly. I don't, I don't know if I would characterize, I mean, having seen him briefly, I don't know how to characterize that. Do you know whether he, like, flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein? Did he visit the island? Do you know anything about that, or their relations, as it relates to that? I never, I don't have any recollection of seeing Mark Middleton at the island. Um, how about former U.S. Senator George Mitchell? Yeah, I do remember George. What do you remember about him? I traveled with him. I, we went to the most memorable, I went to, well, I, I was friendly with his wife, start with that, with Heather. And Heather was in New York, so I hung out with her a few times, we had dinners, and I was just friendly, I would say. Separately with, separately from her husband, I met, was friends with Heather. I met, I met Heather through her husband, but we became friends. You became friends with, with Heather. Yes. Was, was Mr. Epstein friends with, um, Mr. Mitchell? Yes. Did they travel together, uh, besides New York? Did they travel to the island, or to New Mexico? I don't, I don't remember George ever at the island, but the most memorable trip I, I do recall with Senator was to Italy. Was to where? To Italy. Ah, okay. We went to Rome. As, um, the four of you? So Heather and Mr. Mitchell, and you and Mr. Epstein? I, I, that's my recollection. And what were you there for? Visited, well, the most memorable aspect of that trip is we went to the Vatican. And it was extraordinary. And the most extraordinary thing was going to the, up, to the archives and holding Henry VIII's, um, document to the Pope asking for his divorce. The former president of Columbia, Andres Pastrana? Yes. How do you know him? I met Andres Pastrana in a pub in Dublin. Travel with Mr. Epstein that you know? No. I don't. I don't know if, if, I don't know if he ever was ever on the plane. I don't know if he ever, I don't think he ever came to the island. But, um, I went two places with, um, Andres Pastrana. One was to Columbia, and Epstein came to that. And the other was to Cuba, and Epstein was there, and Pastrana was, I think, was there. And what were the purposes of traveling to, to Columbia and then Cuba? I'm a helicopter pilot. And Andres is a helicopter pilot. And we just became friends, and I flew a Black Hawk in Columbia. And how about to Cuba? Um, my, I have a friend of mine who, uh, was the cigar distributor for, um, Monte Cristo was maybe, I can't remember which cigar it was. And, uh, it's in my lab. And he organized the trip, and, um, we met Fidel Castro. When was that approximately? 2002, 2003. Okay. Something like that, I think. Uh, there's some more names that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type of questions. Just, but, as far as a catch-all, there's been a tremendous amount of, um, public information about all kinds of, you know. Uh, the names, including some of the folks we talked about today. And their relationship with Mr. Epstein and, or you. Um, for, for any of the folks that we've talked about today, did you observe them doing anything improper with Mr. Epstein, whether with masseuses or with women who were, or girls who were traveling, or at the residences that they were at, or at the parties that they were at? I did not ever at any time see that. Um. And for any of the names we've talked about today, and then tomorrow we'll talk about some more, but for today, um, do you recall having any conversations with anybody else where they reported to you that they had seen something that one of these individuals had done, whether someone else that works with Mr. Epstein, or somebody that observed something? If anybody had ever reported anything, but first of all, the answer to that is no. And also, I just want to be clear that had anybody ever reported anything illegal or disgusting like that? I would have immediately done something. And I never heard it, I never saw it, and no one ever, ever, ever complained to me, or tears, nothing like that. Okay. All right. So, we took a break while we were talking about, um, Mr. Epstein and his death. Oh. Bless you. That's okay. Take your time. So, Mr. Epstein and his, um, death. So, you were not, obviously. At the MCC during that time, correct? Thank you. Oh, thanks. I think I thought I thought something blew up my nose. So, just take some water, it's okay. No problem. You were not at the MCC during that time, correct? I was not. So, you're going to tell us what you believe, but just to, I just want to make sure I understand your basis for belief is kind of what you've read and seen, and your knowledge of Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew them, knew him. Right. Um, actually, there's a third component. Okay. The answer to that is yes. Okay. And there's a third component, which is, uh, having experienced now, uh, the mismanagement and inefficiencies and total dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Prisons. From BOP. Yes. From the Bureau of Prisons. Okay. Fair. Okay. So, you know, I want to, well, I do want to be careful about asking you to speculate because, because... Anybody can do that, and, and I don't think that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to, to give us your kind of opinion, but, um, do you think that, that the third point you say, which is, which is kind of a failure by the BOP, there's been a lot of, there's an OIG report, there's an SDNY investigation about that, um, do you, so you think he was, he was, he did not die by suicide, given all the things we just talked about? I do not believe he died by suicide, no. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, do you have any speculation or view of who killed him? I, no, I don't. And I ask that because, if you don't believe that there's any truth to the allegations of blackmail, or, um, that he had kind of a list, or that he had reasons to, um, have people hate him, um, why would somebody kill him in prison? Well, in prison, they will kill him. In prison. kill you, or they will pay, somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of commissary is about the going rate for a hit with a lock today. So that goes to the third reason, which is kind of the mismanagement or the shortfallings or shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisons, which is a little bit different than my question, which is, do you think there's somebody on the outside of prison, so putting aside what could happen on the inside, on the outside of prison who wanted him dead so badly that he would have, or she would have, you know, caused him to be killed on the inside? I think that's, I don't see that. I think, is it possible? Of course it's possible, but I don't know of any reason why, and I don't believe in the blackmail or in any of this. I don't think Epstein had a hit. If it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal situation. Yeah, so you're not, you don't have any reason, firsthand knowledge or even speculation it sounds like, to think that he was killed to kind of silence him or to keep him from going public about people he knew about? I don't know, because I think that is just part of the story that's being told. It's not something created that started back in 2008, 9. Yeah, I mean, that's the point. Like, I don't want, I don't think there's value in talking, you know, there's been a lot of, there's a lot of information about what happened, you know, at the MCC. But what is important to me is whether, you know, if it's the idea that, that he didn't die by suicide, that's one thing, but if, to the extent that folks believe that he was murdered, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To keep him quiet or because he had information on rich and powerful people. That's what I, do you have any reason to believe that that's true? I do not. I have any reason to believe that. And I also think it's ludicrous, because if that, I also happen to think if that is what they wanted, they would have had plenty of opportunity when he wasn't in jail. And if they were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he would have been a very easy target. In the time, so, we've talked about a lot of time, all the way up through 2009, 10, and then your, your, the time that, after Mr. Epstein was arrested. When's the last time you spoke with him? I think maybe 2016, 2015, 2016, 2017, in that area, I believe. And what, what, when you're thinking about that last time, was that, you had talked, been talking to him a lot, and then you stopped, or was that a one-off time and it was infrequent at that time? I, I, I really wasn't in communication. The only communications I had with him was in, with regards to the civil suits that, the civil suit that I found myself in, the defamation suit I found myself in. I needed help. I needed information. And I, I didn't have what I needed. And so that was really what, it was, that what drove it was me trying to get myself out of this situation, which I ultimately led to where I am today. And so when, when all that, when that, I don't remember even if I stopped talking to him before that, I think he was, I thought he was angry with me anyway. He didn't like what I did, and he, I wasn't, wasn't interested in what he had to say to me, and. What, what, what did you think he was angry with you about? I think he was angry that I had even said that I had referred to, to her being a liar. He said I should have not said anything, but. When, when, the civil suits that were, ongoing before Mr. Epstein's death. Yes. Did your lawyers coordinate with his lawyers like in discovery and things like that or anything? I don't, I don't think we coordinated in discovery. I don't, I'm not sure. Okay. I, I don't want to misspeak. I don't, I, there was some degree of communication for sure. I just don't know the degree that that took place. So definitely, I mean, I was, definitely hoping for him to be more helpful, and I was definitely, coordinating is not a good word because that sounds like I was trying to make, align myself. That's not where we were going here, but I was definitely trying to get help, as in documents or information that I could use to defend myself. That's 100% true. And the degree to which that took place, I'm not, I don't, I don't recall. There was definitely some of that, though. I don't, I don't want to mislead you. We touched on this earlier, but I just want to, I don't think we really ran it to ground, maybe as much as we could like. Going up through that time, you know, so in the 16, 17, 18, up until the time he's arrested, had your view or your understanding of what had happened changed? Meaning, did you believe that in the late 90s or early 2000s, when, when he started, you know, behaving much differently, did you, did you believe what you were hearing about him at that point? My views, I didn't like the people he was with anyway. So I, I, I don't find, I don't like, I like people who are my age or older, and I don't find the society of, or the companionship of younger people who are, younger people I say that is really that enjoyable. So I don't like the company that he chose to be with. And so I just find it boring and fundamentally uninteresting. That's probably the nicest way I can say it. Yeah. Okay. So I think what we should do is just spend a few minutes talking about tomorrow. Everything was great today. I think that it was very helpful and I appreciate you trying to be as complete as you can. I think tomorrow, you said a few things today about materials that you brought. When we're done, we'll give you a few minutes with, with Mr. Marcus to, to, if there's things that you want to show him that you think we should see. Like I said, I'm not asking you to corroborate anything. If I was asking you to corroborate something, I would tell you, but if there's something you think that, that you don't think that the government has seen, or you think that it was important for me to see, let Mr. Marcus know and he can, he can share it with me. Tomorrow, I, we'll, we'll certainly have some follow-on questions when we, we all think about tonight and, and I think you will too. You know, we can, we can all think about stuff we've talked about. We covered a lot of different areas. We are, I do want to talk about, more about you. So by design today, we wanted to focus on Mr. Epstein and talk about, you know, kind of, well, everything under the sun that we've gone through today. I do think it's important when, when we all evaluate what you've said today and, and kind of your story to understand, to also understand your, why you're here, right? So you, you were indicted, you were charged, you went to trial. You, and, and I want to do that in a way that gives you an opportunity to, to, to say, to kind of say your piece or to say what you, what you haven't said before. But also understanding that there was people who took the witness stand and swore to tell the truth and testified about you and what you did and what they think you saw and what they heard you say. And, and, and I, I'm not, I said to Mr. Marcus, I'm not trying to create a she said, she said situation. Or a he said, she said situation, but I do want to hear from you about your conduct because it's important, I think, for when we evaluate what you say and how you say it and, and, and your recollection of things to also, to talk about that. So what we're going to do, we'll do that tomorrow. I want to talk about, you know, the circumstances leading up to your arrest. There's a lot of, I think, misinformation or there's a lot of information out there that I don't know whether it's misinformation. But about the time from, you know, 2019 up until the time that you, that you were, that you were arrested. And then, like I said, that'll take us through lunch tomorrow and then, and then we'll, we'll be done. I'm not, I don't have a plan. I didn't know that I was coming here until this week. So I'm not, there isn't like a, we don't have like a schedule of what happens next or what happens. But that's not a negative thing. I'm just saying that that's so, so you shouldn't take the lack of a next step as anything other than we don't have a next step yet. So may I say something? Of course. Yes. I just would like to put out there that I also focused on how I think the president got swept into some of this unnecessarily, by the way. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I certainly don't subscribe to all the, all of everything that I see. But I do believe. That there is animus in some areas that may have contributed to how the use of the president to harm him that I find deeply offensive. And whilst I can't obviously say definitively that that is what it is, I would like to show you what I see so that you can evaluate it and do with that as you see fit. If it needs to be addressed. I've seen it. It struck me. And I would like to give it to you. Sure. For what it's worth. Okay. Does that seem something that I can? Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Of course. I don't like that. Okay. That's fine. That's great. A little bit of time to chat. And I'll see you in the morning. Thanks. Great. Thanks. This will conclude the recorded proffer interview for Thursday, July 24th. We will continue tomorrow, Friday, July 25th. The time is 3.30. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.