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All right, we're resuming the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. It is 2-16 on Thursday, July 24th, and the recording device is now on. So when we stopped to take a break, we were talking about what has been publicly discussed as a black book or the Epstein list, and that's where we are. So you said you think you might know or that you're aware of kind of the origin of this narrative. I just want to reiterate again, there is no list that I am aware of at any time, at least during the period of time when I was present. The origin of this story, I believe, begins, or it has a beginning in 2009. And then it has a prequel that we have to start in 2009. In 2009, Epstein is, I think, out of jail, and there are civil suits taking place. Many of these are coming out of a disgraced law firm, Rothstein, Rosenfeld, and Adler. And at that law firm is a lawyer who started there in April, May 2009, called Brad Edwards. In 2009, allegedly, the FBI gets a call in October of 2009 from Brad Edwards. He allegedly tells them, that he has come across a piece of evidence that belongs to Epstein that contains a list of all of his clients and victims, underage girls, massage therapists, and the men who are having sex with them. And he becomes, he, Brad Edwards, becomes a... a cooperating witness, no, cooperating... Confidential informant. Confidential informant, sorry. Confidential informant for them. And in a sting operation, obtains the list from a former butler of Epstein's called Alfredo Rodriguez. And it becomes evidence in the civil suit. And in the... Alfredo Rodriguez is subsequently prosecuted for having an AK-47 or something weird, some guns or something, and goes to trial and there's a criminal complaint that the FBI produced. And in that criminal complaint, it says that Brad Edwards became aware of the list, but we'll call it the list for the purposes of this. After Alfredo... Rodriguez's two depositions that are held in Epstein's civil suit. It's in the FBI's affidavit that the evidence was collected and Brad Edwards became aware of it after the second deposition. It's in the criminal complaint. The truth is different from what's in both the criminal complaint and in that FBI affidavit. And it's... And in Brad Edwards's own statements on the subject. The truth is that Alfredo Rodriguez was deposed twice, once in July and once in August. And in the July deposition, told Brad Edwards that he had handwritten notes or a journal or whatever in the deposition. And Brad Edwards replies, well, we're going to come back for a second deposition. And the second deposition takes place in August. What this means is that Brad Edwards had access to the list from sometime between July and August until when he actually called the FBI in October. So we're talking six months or so. Rothstein's firm was raided of the FBI. A few days after the list went into the FBI's hands. And subsequently, Rothstein himself was prosecuted for RICO and I believe went to jail for 50 years. As part of that RICO case, he admitted to on the record and was, I don't know whether he was prosecuted for creating fake settlements and fake evidence in Epstein's inn. In 2009, simultaneously whilst this was going on, my boyfriend, Ted Waite, was asked for $10 million to keep me out of any of Epstein's civil suits. Up until then, I had not been in any of Epstein's civil suits. In fact, I wasn't even sure, save for the first time I was mentioned was by ***. I hadn't been, I was basically nowhere. And then Ted was called for this $10 million and had been shown, his people had been shown evidence that included the list, the flight logs, and various other pieces of evidence. Now we're going to the prequel part of this story so then it can tie to how this starts. In 2007, Epstein signs the non-prosecution agreement. He then fights the prosecution agreement or debates it through the DOJ or whatever happened there and goes to the court in 2008 when it's accepted or whatever that is, was the lead prosecutor, or the lead, yes, in that case. And she, I think, was not happy with the outcome and utilised, at that time, Brad Edwards to file the CVRA case. Now, what is, what I have managed to understand from this is within the OPR itself, there is evidence that it says that Brad Edwards was the only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to, so I just want to preface that. The reason why I know that she went behind Acosta's back and everything else to do this is because Brad Edwards, in a podcast, made the revelation. What he says is that he'd never heard of the CVRA case before and called him and told him to file it. The sole purpose, the sole purpose of the CVRA was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement. So what I believe is with Brad Edwards, who she had also been, he was the lawyer that she had selected as a pro bono lawyer for some of the victims. And he was also working for Rothstein's firm that was under RICO investigation for that entire time, creating fake evidence in Epstein's case. And she had just filed hidden secret using Edwards to overturn the NPA by filing the CVRA case that's sole purpose was to overturn it. And so when he approached her with the list, this was part of the effort to utilize and find new evidence to support the overturning either of the NPA and or of the NPA. And so that was a new case against Epstein. Because Brad Edwards, or I don't know if it was Brad Edwards, because Rothstein's firm asked my then boyfriend for $10 million to kick me out of suits that I had no knowledge of at that time whatsoever, I now know that the base of this story was a blackmail of a billionaire. Because Ted Waite was a multi-billionaire. He had everything. He was way, way more wealthy than Epstein, if anyone. And that is the reason why Ted and I broke up. What was the basis of it? And that list was created so then the masseuses that were on that list, I had never heard of some of them. Not even from the civil suits that had come up since I've seen it. This is me now knowing what's in the list today. And I believe that... Oh, Alfredo Rodriguez. So there's a metamorphosis of this list. So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes that's in the documents contemporaneously is that it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has. It then morphs into something that Alfredo took, a book that Alfredo took from Epstein's computer, but there's no computer, I know, certainly not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken, that came out as a book. And then it morphed, at the civil time, my civil cases into a book that was taken from my computer and then it morphed into the Southern District of New York as a combination list of mine and Epstein's. That is a metamorphosis through documents that you can trace. So in your mind, from what you just described, there is a list. It's just menus. It's just a manufacturer. I mean, have you seen the list even fake? Do you know? I haven't seen it. So I guess my thing is that what Brad Edwards says in all of these things is in the paperwork and whatnot. So all this story is basically controlled by five people. There's four alleged victims that speak about the list and the blackmail and the men and the sex and whatnot. And the lawyers. And now the prosecutors, sorry. The Southern District of New York, for sure. But no one else. None of these stories carry from any of the 44 alleged original victims. They never ever say that they were farmed out to anybody. But the list itself. Yes. Where is it? There is no list, but Brad Edwards said that he created a list. Sorry, he created a list. So in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez produced that became evidence, Exhibit 52, in my trial, it has markings all over it. Circles and dots and whatnot. And Brad Edwards says that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of all the people who were involved. It includes Alan Dershowitz, for the record, who's marked. I don't remember what it does with Donald Trump. I don't know. You'd have to look. I don't have it. But I believe... So what he did, he marked... I don't know. Somebody marked up that book of names. And I think all the names of the people that they went for were originally selected between two sources. One was this alleged book of names. And one was also from the telephone logs that were collected from the house in Palm Beach. And just to finish it off, there is a note. I have some papers for you if you wanted them, where Brad Edwards said, that he has a list of 25 men that he got money off. So, okay. So the list that everybody, the black book, the list, what you're saying is that your Exhibit 52 from your trial, which is like more of an address book, a Rolodex type thing, that Mr. Rodriguez, Alfredo Rodriguez, your understanding is that somewhere along the way, he went through and kind of marked that list to say... I don't know where that book actually comes from. I don't know what that book is. That book is some type of a compilation. But what it is, is it's just pieces of paper with type. So if you had, you could have made a list. I could put... When you're referring to something that's been public for a long... If we're thinking about the same thing, you're talking about the... You're right. It's like a bunch of different types of paper or whatever. I only have a copy of it. But with big parts of it redacted. It's redacted publicly because there's people's addresses and whatnot on it. Yes, that's what I'm talking about. Okay. So it... Oh, perfect. Yes. So you will find... We're looking at Exhibit 52 now. Okay. So you're looking at Exhibit 52. So the one they produced, the Southern District of New York actually produced a book for me to see as evidence of the actual thing it was. And I... It has marks. It has tabs. It has names I've never seen. It had like that list of names. That list was basically the names that they'd choose to produce at trial. Now, in Rothstein Adler's firm, I also have some documents where Rothstein... His original scheme at Rothstein Adler was to place prostitutes... He had a bar, a dancey bar, where he had girls. And I believe he would use them and put them as fake secretaries in people's offices. And then she might touch him or he might touch her or something and boom, he got $25,000 for that. And those girls... I'm not saying that those are the girls that came in Epstein's case necessarily. But the... So... But again, let's like... So we're separating the evidence that came in at your trial and... What you just talked about with Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez, during the time that you were with Mr. Epstein and even in the 2000s when you were around less frequently, you never observed or you never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of individuals who, you know, linked to certain masseuses or anything like that. Absolutely no. No. There is no list. There is no... I'm not aware of any blackmail. I never heard... I never heard that. I never saw it and I never... I never imagined it. While we're on this topic, just... Again, I know we're jumping around and we've been going at it for a while so I apologize. But there's recently been reports about a birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein. I think for his 50th birthday in 2003. That's true. What do you know about that? So, my mom did a birthday book for my father at his 60th. And when I... Epstein would talk about his 50th, he said, I don't know what I'm going to do. And I said, well, this is a nice thing. My mom did this book for my dad. He said, I love that idea. He said, can you help coordinate it? And... He organized. Who... He called a lot of the people himself. I coordinated the putting together of the book. And in some instances, I called people that asked them to contribute. What was in the book? Like, what was the ask of the people you called? It's his 50th birthday. Say anything you want on a piece of paper. Okay. I mean, nothing more than that. I mean, it was an obvious question. But you basically... His folks were invited to send something to you to celebrate. To celebrate his birthday. Yes. To say happy birthday with, like, have a wonderful day or something else. There was no... There was no ask. But I wasn't responsible for everybody in that book. And there were people that he would ask himself to contribute. Do you remember some... Do you remember specific names of individuals who did send letters or who did contribute? It's been so long. I want to tell you that I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I honestly don't remember. The article talks about several names, but including the folks in the article, which is on Donald Trump. Do you remember President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a note? I don't. Do you think the article... Well, do you remember seeing that book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York? Yes. Okay. What do you remember seeing? I remember there were there were there were some portions of that book. But what surprised me yeah what surprised me was how few there were because I thought if you had those where are the rest? There was none of Mr. Trump. In your discovery? In my discovery, sorry. President Trump there was nothing from President Trump. And do you remember but separate and apart from your discovery do you remember one way or the other whether President Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday? I do not remember. And the article that references the letter talks about like a like either a picture of a naked woman or something like that. Do you have any recollection of that? I do not. Wait, just no, I don't. Do you remember so what do you remember seeing from your discovery around the book? Like you said portions of it or some of the pages? I remember there were maybe I just want to say about the discovery that I had about maybe this is an exaggeration I'm not sure but in my mind it's about close to five million documents. It was a lot. And of that giant document dump that I received I was only maybe as much as 30 to 35 percent I was never able to access. And this is documented at the court. And so I cannot say that I saw everything because I didn't. Yeah, okay. I just want you to know that. And I think that that was by design. But you but you do remember I do remember some pages. Seeing some pages of the book. I do, yes. Okay. Do you remember which pages you saw? Like from who had written those letters? Or no? I really don't remember. I'm sorry. It's okay. Did you did you and or so the same question we've asked about some other individuals did you have did you meet Bill Gates over the years? Yes. Because of your relationship with Mr. Epstein or separate? That one well I met Mr. Gates I went to the TED conference I gave I went to TED conference and I actually spoke at the TED conference. Not the main stage the sub stage. And I also gave several TED exits. But and I met him there but we weren't friendly and I actually did meet him because I knew him. I knew his I don't know if he was chief of staff or whoever Boris and I met him I think once. I may have met him actually at 71st street. I may have once. I don't remember if I met him there or at a restaurant. I don't remember. And that would have been because of Epstein because Epstein was friendly with Boris and Boris. That's all I remember. Do you know whether Mr. Gates travelled with Mr. Epstein on his plane? To any of his houses? So if that that friendship was after you know it was in the late 2000s so if I met him like I said I went to Epstein's house maybe once or twice and maybe I met him there I don't remember. So you don't So I wouldn't know if he had been on Epstein's plane. And you weren't you don't recall ever being on a plane with him flying to the island or to anywhere? No. Do you know somebody named Reid Hoffman? I do. Who's that? Reid's a Silicon Valley guy. Is what? Silicon Valley. And how do you know him? Through my friends in San Francisco. I have a I used to have a very close friend who was in San Francisco who's part of that whole I have several actually or had. So is that a relationship you have kind of separate and apart from Mr. Epstein? Separate. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein had a relationship with Reid Hoffman? I don't know. Did you ever observe Mr. Hoffman flying anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein? Or giving massages? No. So there was there's a list a list of multiple masseuses that that is floating around I think you had in your discovery I think you were just talking about that. That list do you know how that list was created? No. That all that stuff that came out of that book I now find suspect. It's part of the story you just told us. Yes. Now I'm not saying it's all fake. I don't know what's real and what's not. I don't know what name is true but now that it's been to my mind anyway now that it has been without a doubt contaminated and possibly fraudulent I I'm not I don't know. I mean obviously the numbers that I recognise on my own those are real but how it was actually ended up put together and compiled and the purposes for it for which then they blackmailed my boyfriend now I'm just no. Over the years when you were serving as like the general manager so the mid 90s all the way into the 2000s did you or do you know whether anyone maintained a list of all the masseuses like a running list? So there would have so there's two things well three ways so I know that the house itself John Alessi had a Rolodex that he kept the names and numbers of all the people that were that came to the house so that he could call so because I only was with Ed's team even at best half the time so when I was there he had like his chief of staff who could find whatever he needed and when I wasn't there he had to rely on somebody else right so be that John Alessi or whoever else so everybody whoever was travelling with him or however wherever he was he needed somebody else to access information so he had an assistant chief who was his secretary who would be the one that would update his computer you know like everybody has an address book but was what you're describing which I'm not it makes sense I'm just was that a list of masseuses or a list of people that might need to be contacted which would necessarily include a lot of masseuses that's the latter um and did you did you update that like were you part of were you one of the people that would would add names to it like if if a masseuse came and leaves and misrepresents yes she was good would you be part like how was the list kind of maintained or who maintained it typically no because there would be an assistant who would do that plus Epstein would not allow me to answer the telephone ever so or maintain or keep anything of his messages in the office or at the house so typically that wouldn't be because I wouldn't be the one could I say to you I never did it no of course not because that just seems ludicrous but as a rule of thumb the answer would be no um during the 2007 8-9 investigation the investigation out of the Southern District of Florida so you said that you weren't contacted by law enforcement I was not after Mr. Epstein was charged did you have conversations with him about the investigation he never talked to me about it did you I mean I can't let's put it this way if he did I have no recollection of it I mean I'm sure he must have said this is all whatever he said or it's nothing I mean I just don't have any I just don't have any memory I mean I just I was with Ted I was like gone I mean plus I just didn't want to know either I suppose so you don't know first hand why the U.S. attorney in Florida made the deal that he did meaning you weren't part of that discussion along the way like Mr. Epstein didn't say I'm getting a good deal or you know something's happening with the case that's very good you were to the extent you know anything about it it's just from what you've heard or read from others not from Mr. Epstein is that right he never talked about the non-prosecution directly with me no but he did but it's still enforceable that's different I mean he never said hey are you happy with this deal like that but I understood he never he never enjoined me to the MPA but I understand that he included me specifically and I'll tell you why well it's it's it's okay you don't need to get into that I don't want to talk about the legal what's on appeal I'm just the reason for my question just to be I'm not trying to hide something but there's there's a very strong belief that he got a very good deal and that and that he should he should have been sentenced to more time or got a different sentence from the feds than a non-prosecution agreement and I'm not asking you to opine on that but I'm wondering whether he ever talked to you about that but it sounds like he didn't that he got a good deal no I think actually well his comments that I've read was that he didn't get a good deal and I think that when he fought it so hard it's because he didn't think he did when he was serving a sentence were you ever were you around during that time like when he was allowed to leave during the day or travel during the day I never called him I never saw him and I never went to the jail so I'm going to ask you questions that you shouldn't read into them I just want to know whether they resonate with you have you ever had any contact with any representative that you know of from Mossad the Israeli intelligence agency can you ask me that again have you ever had any contact with an individual that you understand to be from Mossad an Israeli intelligence agency well not deliberately pardon me not deliberately and did you know we asked this we talked about this a little bit earlier but just to put a finer point on it did you ever know that Mr. did you ever were you ever told did you ever think that Mr. Epstein was getting any money from any intelligence agency including Mossad I don't believe so but I wouldn't know I mean I would be very surprised if he did I don't think so no we've talked about a lot of names and I'm sure we've there's some that we haven't covered are there any foreign nationals so right now we've talked about some British the royal family a little bit and maybe high society folks in Britain were there any international businessmen or politicians that had a very close relationship or a close relationship with Mr. Epstein that we haven't already talked about off the top of my head I can think of Ehud Barak you said that Mr. Epstein at some point in the mid to late 90s he started taking testosterone did you ever know him to take any other drugs no I mean he took pills for his heart I think but I don't know what no substances what do you know anything about his heart condition I know we talked about this at you know 9.45 this morning but do you know anything about his heart condition beyond that you understood he had a heart condition that affected his heart condition his ability to have sex other than what he told me no he never shared anything but he did take pills I don't know anything about that and like I said he did the testosterone which made him mean and we're jumping around a little bit sorry do you know someone named Donald Barr no he is I can represent to you was a former headmaster of the Dalton school which you mentioned earlier I don't know do you remember any conversations with Mr. Epstein about a book that Mr. Barr wrote called Space Relations I've never heard of that about aliens and sex do you know whether well have you ever met the former Attorney General of the United States Bill Barr no do you remember whether Mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came up in conversations you had with Mr. Epstein I don't I don't recall any I don't did you have a relationship or no I'm using relationship and I appreciate you don't like that word did you know Mr. Epstein's brother Mark Epstein yes how did you know him through Jeffrey how would you describe your relationship close friendly my personal yes not that close but friendly enough I don't know I mean how was Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with his brother Mark from what you observed I mean they weren't brotherly but I think that I don't know there are periods when they were closer and then when they weren't I think sometimes Epstein found his brother irritating and I think I know the answer is given what you just said about you know Bill Barr but did you ever hear any from Mr. Epstein or anybody else that Bill Barr had any role in Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida or any role in that process with Mr. Acosta I never heard that I think you said this in an interview but if I'm wrong forgive me do you have a view of Mr. Epstein and Mr. Epstein of whether he committed suicide or whether something else happened can we take a break yeah sure yeah we can take a break yeah sure actually it's a good time to take a break anyway because we don't want to spoil the day alright so we're going to take a break it's 2.53 Thursday July 24th thank you