Court Records
I definitely witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein's behavior and a modification, if you will, where in the past, in the early 90s, I don't remember traveling so much with other people, whether it be a masseuse or a yoga person, but now he started to travel with more, always a masseuse, whereas in the past it wasn't always a masseuse or always an instructor, there was now starting to be always an individual or a friend or whatever. There's always a, like, maybe the word would be entourage, but these were always people in their 20s, late 20s, early 30s, as my memory sees it, as I observed that time, and he tasked me with finding... local masseuse for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes, even though I say he would always travel with an entourage, sometimes he didn't, and he wanted to have a massage locally, so I visited the spas that were local in St. Thomas, in St. Thomas and in St. John, and if I met someone, a man or a woman, actually, because it was difficult to find somebody in St. Thomas, it's not exactly, you know, so, and I did find a couple of people who would come. So that's how... They came, because also it was a schlep, so if you had somebody who came, it would be, you'd have to, you know, boat ride, and several hours, it wasn't just a, it's not like arriving with your massage table and stuff, so there was that, so I did do that. So did, over the years, males also give massages to Mr. Epstein? Yes. I did say, I don't think, at the beginning, definitely. And I would say towards, sort of, again, late 90s, I don't remember any men, they were at the beginning, I think, in that, towards the late 90s, I kind of don't think of any men, I only think of women. Did you, you talk about entourage flying, right now we're talking about to the island, did you observe any sexual, I was going to say misconduct, but any sexual, any sex at all whatsoever on the plane? Never on the plane, no. Was there a part of the plane that was closed off from others where Mr. Epstein could go and get a massage, or what? Yeah, okay, so that's a good question. So there were two planes. So you had the, there was a Gulfstream, and that's open plan, so anything, I mean, there was a sofa that turned into a bed, and he did sleep on that, and then, but in the Boeing, which he flew on a lot, there was, his area could be closed off with a door, and behind that door, there would be, there was a bedroom and an office, so if that door was shut, you wouldn't see it. But do you, so if you'd never, so, but you never observed Mr. Epstein engaging in sex or getting a massage with somebody, with one of the masseuses was not clothed on the plane? I can't say that. I might have. Okay. I definitely might have, or either. Okay. Both in the Gulfstream, or in the, in the, I'm sure I did, but it's not, I can't. That's fair. Okay. I'm absolutely sure I did. I must have, because, you know, he was so obsessed with someone rubbing his feet, or just, when you ask me about massages, I just want to be clear, I generally, what I think of that is somebody on a massage table, but other people might think of it as something different, you know, you could have someone rubbing his feet, or his shoulder, I saw that all the time, that I did. But that's sexual. That's separate from being on a massage table. How, again, I know what we're talking about, a decade-long period, but during the period we're talking about, in a seven-day week, how often would Mr. Epstein get a massage? In the 90s, when we're talking, he would get one every day. I think as that time progressed, he would get one maybe twice a day. I do want to say that there was a... maybe a reason that things altered, or morphed, or progressed, and it is maybe part of the reason, also, that I, he and I, our relationship, or however somebody wants to call it, altered, and he started doing testosterone. And that altered his character, and I believe that started in the late 90s, and I believe that the FBI has his medical records, and you may see that on his medical records. So you believe that he started taking testosterone in the 90s, and when you say that altered his behavior, you're saying it wanted to, made him get more massages, or that was just one part of... Of what changed about him? Well, he became more aggressive. Nice. And I think that he may be, well, now I'm just imagining that the testosterone altered his desires, or something. Does that... And so, so when, given what you've said the past couple hours about his kind of progression or change... Let's focus on that time period, so more towards the late 90s, so 96, 97, 98, you know, when you've said that he changed. Did you know flat out that he was having sex, or otherwise some sort of sexual conduct with masseuses regularly? Flat out, no, I denied that. I couldn't imagine that he would, but I think, looking back now, that... I did know, but I started to suspect that he was not faithful. It seems ludicrous. But if, look, if he's flying from Palm Beach to St. Thomas, or if he's flying all over the country to New Mexico, or to New York, or even in Palm Beach, and there's young women, putting aside whether they're under the age of 18, or in their 20s, or whatever, and they're in their 20s, every day at the house, multiple masseuses, multiple massages on some days, you're interacting with the masseuses constantly, or maybe that's not right. That's not right. Let me take back what I just said. Ignore that part. But you understand that he's getting massages every day, sometimes multiple times a day. By the late 90s, it's all women, presumably they're, some of them are new, but they're also repeat masseuses. What did you... I mean, you had to know at that point that there was something going on beyond just he really needed to get massaged. Very fair question. There's two things. The first is the person that he saw the most at that period of time was in her 40s, and she was with him all the time. And I'm like, married as well. Yeah. And it was, I'm square. And it never occurred, well, I don't believe it occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he would be having... Relations. And he was with her, that was the person he had the most massages, yoga, and that was at that time, in the 90s period. The second thing is that he told me he didn't, he had to fool me having an erection. And I believed him. When you said he said that, do you mean he regularly told you that? When I first, because when I didn't have sex with him. After the first time, and it took, so I asked him, was it me? And he told me it was him. And I'd never, up until this moment in my life, as if, I'm not stupid, I'm very bright, I've had an excellent education, I've traveled all over the world, I had had boyfriends, but I had never met or understood that somebody could be so... Would... Would lie to me about, I could, it never occurred to me. I didn't have a frame of context within my life experience where somebody would be so manipulative and devious with me. I just, and plus I just didn't have, I just, and I was happy not to have sex because I have a condition that doesn't lend itself to that. Does... When you learned, so fast forward just for a moment to the 2007-89 time period, and he's arrested and charged, and there's all kinds of press around his purported contact, at that point, did you, at that point did you accept that that was true? Meaning, did it make sense at that point, when you're reading about women who claimed that they had been abused, even underage, and at that point did you think... Did you think to yourself, well jeez, does that make sense now that I think about it, or no? Well, first of all, I didn't, that's, I only read what was in the newspapers, I didn't have any other thing, and I'm embarrassed to say it, I didn't, I didn't believe it. Okay. Right. I mean, you, you didn't believe that the accusations were true at the time? No. Yeah. Um, so let's... And, and, and, sorry, I need to say, even if they were true, I believe that he was duped, and he didn't know that they were, whatever it was in the papers about him. Yeah. And, and, and, sorry, I need to say, even if they were true, I believe that he was duped, and he didn't know that they were, whatever it was in the papers about him, whether they said that they were 17 or... Um... I, I didn't, it didn't register, because... Yeah. Along with all of those... Yeah. Well, not in 2006, but later when the... More salacious and other allegations came out, I knew were utterly false, which then just reinforced my belief that the rest was not true. Let me ask you a question about the age of, of, um, the masseuses over the years. Um... Um, I think in my mind, there's a difference between you knowing or not knowing that a masseuse is under the age of 18 and coming to give a massage, and you knowing that a strepsine, you know, sexually abused the underage person or made her strip or something like that. Meaning, and I want to understand whether you believe that nobody that came to give massages, none of the women were under 18, or that you didn't focus on their age, but you were more focused on whether any underage woman was abused by him. I think it's better to answer this question with corroboration. I think it's better to answer this question with corroborating evidence, and then go back and explain, so that I frame your understanding of what I'm saying. My understanding is that in 2000, let's say 2008, they had interviewed 44 women, let's say, or around that number. You have to understand, not a single one of those 44 women mentioned me in a single report. And it's not because... They didn't mention me in a report because they never met me, they never saw me, and they never interacted with me. So, to go back to your question, it's not that I thought one way or another, it's that I didn't see them. Okay. I see. Okay. Does that... Yeah, yeah, that's helpful. So... When I say not one, not one single one of those reports talks about me. And I just want to clarify exactly because... I'm obviously aware that one of those girls was one of the witnesses in my trial. Specifically, to use her own testimony, so that you don't have to hear my point of view. It's better if it comes from her own words, and that way there's no second-guessing with what I'm saying. She herself said that... Recruited her. Those are... Own words. That you didn't know. I mean, I assume... Oh, yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. It's okay, it's okay. It's okay to remember. It's all right. It's okay, it's okay. I really do have some... It's okay. Slow cognition issues. The... So, she says, she testifies that it was... That recruited her and trained her and not you. So, wait. So, then, in her first FBI meeting, she reports seeing a woman with short, dark hair at the house, which then... Is used as evidence that that person was myself. But the maid lady who helped keep the house, John Alessi's wife... Oh, and with an accent, I believe she said. John Alessi's wife had short, dark hair and an accent. I'm sorry, but I find... And you can ask yourselves this. I mean, I've obviously modified my accent. I've been in America a long time, but I'm British. I've been brought up with a very strong British accent. And I don't believe there's American on planet Earth that doesn't recognize this to be British or Australian, maybe, if you really don't know. But it's not some random accent. Now, the Hispanic, maybe. Okay. That was John's wife that she saw, not me. And I'd like to point out further how you potentially her own... Through her own words. She identified... Why don't we stop there and ask the next question? Okay. So, just... And look, I want to try to... I think probably tomorrow we'll... I want to talk more about kind of the evidence against you and how to address that, so... Okay, sorry. No, no, no, don't apologize. So that's helpful, but I don't want you to be burdened. I want you to just tell the truth the best you can, so I don't want you to be burdened by what people said at trial or what you know the press says about you. I just don't... I thought it was illustrative when you asked me the question. It was, it was. Because it doesn't... I did not... I absolutely have no memory at any... Now, I'm leaving... Separate to this, obviously, so that's a separate story. I'm not going to pretend... Well, we'll... We'll get to... Yes, but in the terms of the scheme or whatever, however you want to determine what you're calling that, I have no... No memory. No active anything of having seen anybody that resembles a young child, let's call it what it is, at that house giving him a massage. At all. It's not even like I did this. It's an at all. And 44 people didn't see me or talk about me either, including... Did... And when you say that house... Oh, sorry, Palm Beach. You know, I understand what you mean, but... And I... Does the same memory or lack thereof apply to... On planes, in New Mexico, in New York, in... Well, with some other important caveats. Well, on that... Bejeweling Jane in my trial was clearly underage, clearly a child. And I only saw her in Palm Beach. And I only saw her with her mother. The other person... The other person... I mean, it was clearly also not an adult or even close. I believe I remember her now. But that would be the only two or three, whatever that is. So, did you ever know Mr. Epstein to communicate with FBI agents, either like intelligence FBI agents, like as a source, or just generally with FBI agents? No. Do you think if he had done that, you would have... known, like he would have told you something like that? Like, if I said to you, Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI, would you say, that's crazy, no, he wasn't? Or maybe he was, I would... He would have told me that anyway. I have two answers for that. I think if he was for real, I think he would have bragged about it to me, as a show-off, because he could be a show-off. And if he wasn't, he might have dropped it, like he was cool. And I don't think, I don't remember him doing either. Now, with again, the caveat that in his, before I met him, finding money, I think he may have suggested that there were some people who helped him. But that's the only context that I recall that in. What do you mean by that? When you said finding money, what do you mean? Well, his business where he... Remember I told you, I think in that context, he showed me a photograph that he had with some African warlords or something that he told me, and I don't remember if that's what I interpreted, that kind of thing, or whether it was something like that. That's the only actual active memory I have of something nefarious, more than nefarious, I don't even know if it was nefarious, but co-operative, overt, I suppose, would be the word. And what about any other intelligence agency, like the CIA or Defense Intelligence or any other law enforcement agency? Okay. I don't think so. I think that, I don't remember anything like that. I just don't think he had the wherewithal, and I think that whole aspect of that is, can I use a bad word? Yes. Bullshit. And what do you, you think it's bullshit, meaning, what do you mean? Would you have known if he was, would he have been bragging to you? Would he have been saying these things? I think he was, because I think, well, sorry. I think that, I think one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my family connections and why he liked other people was because they were cool or whatever, and I think that certainly early in, when I met him, he would have tried to impress me or tried to show off, if you will, like he was that guy, you know, and he wasn't that guy. And so, and I think that he would have tried to bullshit me and he didn't. So I think it's, well, he may have tried to bullshit me, but no, I'm kidding. Sorry. So I want to just shift for a few minutes to talk about post-2000, 2000 to kind of when your relationship changed over the years with him. Did there come a time when he, Mr. Epstein, did meet members of the royal family? Yes. When was that? So I need to go back because I think I may have misspoke. I didn't misspeak, but it's something that I have forgotten. Before I met Epstein, he lived in London for a period of time. I don't know for how long. And he met and knew some truly fancy people, like people, high society, people. That included Princess Diana's best friend. Her name was Rosa Moncton. And Rosa's husband, Dominic Lawson, who's a famous journalist. Actually, he's a very well-known journalist. And when I, and he had, he was friends with the Bearings, Bearings Bank. And he had like, sort of, that. That was, you're talking about before, so in the 80s. Yes. He was dating Eva Anderson. Miss Sweden, I think. I don't know when she became Miss Sweden. Okay, so earlier when you said that he met them later, you think he may have met some members of the royal family or certainly British high society. He met, I don't know about the royal family, but certainly high society. Okay. And the reason why I know this is because sometimes we get, this is a document, documentable, I think, whatever. There's a photograph that can give you the date because I don't remember what the date is of this. So there's something that will, will peg whatever this date is. I don't remember when that is. Epstein went to London without me. He often went everywhere without me, but he was in London without me, which was decently unusual because London's my hometown. But anyway, he went without me and he went to a big event in, I think it was in the, anyway, it was a big event. It's on, it's on, it's on the news. It's like, there's photographs of it and he, I don't know if he sat with Diana or he met Diana or he met her. I don't know, but this, I believe, was organized by Rosa. And so there's, I don't know if she was being set up as a date for him, maybe, because she, I don't want, I don't want to speak bad of Diana, but I'm not going to do that. Okay. So that was pre-meeting you. No, that was, when that event happened, when we were, Oh, okay, that was, that was, no, it's when we were, I'm not going to say together, but how about this, when I was his employee. Okay. That's it. So now moving back to the, 2000s, there come a time when Mr. Epstein met Prince Andrew? Yes. And others in the royal family or just Prince Andrew, as far as you know? Well, so, as much as I can piece it together, all right, first of all, let's just state, I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson. That is a flat untruth. Start with that. So now I'm going to tell you how he did actually meet him. So I, if you find me that photograph, I can date that time when he met Princess Diana at that event. And based on that, I'll be able to tell you if it's pre or post that event because I haven't looked it up and I've never bothered to check. So, Lynn Forrester, who was a client or some type of client, or I think she actually tried to date him or might have dated him for the record. She was in, do you want to ask me something? No, no, go ahead. Okay. She was, she had a house or she rented a house in the vineyard. I think it was in the vineyard or Nantucket. I can't remember now which one it was. It was one of those. So either Nantucket or the vineyard. And invited Epstein to go. And I believe, I believe that's when he met Prince Andrew. However, I believe that before that event, he had gone to the Bahamas and had hung out with Sarah Ferguson. And Sarah, had called Epstein and had arranged with Lynn or, I don't know. I don't know now. I'm speculating. Anyway, long and short, he met Andrew up there. And I'm not holding you to an exact date, but when approximately Well, we can date it from that picture if you find me the picture. But do you know, without looking at a photo, in your mind, approximately when was that? I want to say it was 2000, 2000, no, probably 2001, 2002. Probably 2000s. Yes. And I think it was actually Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met Jeffrey Epstein through you. I think that's true. So, well. It's true that Andrew said that. No, I'm sure it's true. Because I, I'm English. And my close friends are all close friends with Sarah and Andrew. And I would not, um, say that I was close friends with Andrew before. But certainly we were friendly and certainly his best friends. Some of them were very, very close with me. And I think that my friendship, uh, my, me being present or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey Moore, like, trust him, or I think that's maybe it. So you don't dispute that you're, that you kind of had a role in, um, getting together. You're just saying you didn't say, Prince, here's Jeffrey. I would never have introduced them. It would never have occurred to me to introduce them. I couldn't imagine them being friendly. Two, two, two chalk and cheeses would never, I mean, for real. There's nothing there to connect them. So, he met Prince Andrew and then he had a really big relationship. I don't, I don't like that word. It sounds clunky. They had a print. Acquaintanceship. Thank you. And through Sarah, actually, I think Sarah is the one that pushed, pushed that. And they met and hung out, I want to say, two or three times that had nothing to do with me. I wasn't communicating with Andrew. I wasn't in touch with him. And I know this because I was annoyed and I felt left out and I felt disrespected and I was like, this is weird. I couldn't even imagine Epstein and Andrew together and I thought, that Sarah was trying to put the moves on Jeffrey, if I'm being honest. And I thought the whole thing was annoying. So, what happened with the relationship, putting aside the, the publicity around Prince Andrew's purported relationship with, what happened, as far as you know, with Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein's relationship from the times you just described? Okay, so after that, at some point, Jeffrey told me, Epstein told me that Andrew was coming to New York and I needed to organize the whole thing. That's classic, by the way. Classic, Epstein. Of course, if someone's like, all right, fine, whatever. And because he wanted to make sure that Andrew was taken care of and that he was comfortable, he had whatever he needed, and yada, yada, yada. And I'm like, well, am I gonna meet him or are you just gonna have me do all the job? And he said, well, you know, you can come and say hello. Wow. Wow, that's so nice of you. For real. Because you have to understand, like, I don't know if I told you this before, but I did not have the keys to his house. I was not allowed to go to his house unless I was summoned or told. I was not allowed to answer his phones. We can go there. But anyway, so this, we can talk about this at a sore point, perhaps. Anyway, so Andrew came, and of course, the minute we got together, I was like yay, hi. And then it was so nice because the, The difference of being in England with Prince Andrew versus being in New York without all the bullshit was insane. And our friendship just, like, lit up like this. Because first of all, he knew that I'm safe. I mean, safe as in I'm not, you know, Nigel Dempster or taking a picture. I mean, not in a millennia's would I do something so gross. And we honestly got on like a house off. I really liked him a lot. But then he's, it was so nice. And we just became really, really good friends. Much more so than when we were in London, if I'm honest. And then with respect to and Prince Andrew, what do you know about that relationship? Would you like to ask that again? Relationship's a big word. Like I said, I don't like the word. Let's just start there. Okay. So I have read, I just want to, like, piece together. Well, don't say, before you say what you read, because that's one of the problems is that we're all kind of Well-informed by, like, all the publicity and information around what everybody else has said. But what do you, what do you, what do you think? Or what did you see? What did you hear? Well, what's an even bigger word than bullshit? Okay. Why? Well, go ahead. Just finish that thought. Why do you think that? I'm going to tell you right now. I'm so happy to tell you. I'm, like, excited. I'm beyond excited. Okay. So. There's going to be a mixture of what I've actually seen and know from the evidence and versus what I've put together. It's impossible for me at this point to separate everything, but I'll tell you what I know versus what I saw and what I physically have in here. But it's helpful for you to know. So, the allegation, I have to go with the allegation. The allegation was that at my house in London in March, whatever that was, 2001, I believe, uh, we went to London, especially so that ****** could have a, ****** could have a relationship with Prince Andrew, and she was paid a vast amount of money for that purpose. Okay. And that she then, um, got in my bathroom in my house in London and had sex, sexual relations with him and then went into my guest room and had full-blown sex and then left my house. Oh, he left and she felt used and disgusting. And a photograph was taken of them just before all these events took place in my study. That is what is the story. Oh, and then after that, she met him several other times, but we'll come to that. We'll come, this is where it will allegedly start. And they went to Tramp. Oh, right, right, right. We went to a nightclub that night. Oh, we went to dinner, right? We went to dinner and then to Tramp. Okay, so the first thing about that weekend, that specific weekend, was that it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in the country. And I have some corroborating evidence for that and a lot of testimonial that you can check. So that takes care of the reason why I, one of the reasons why her story doesn't hold water. The second reason why, so by the way, when I say that, my mum turned 80 at that actual weekend. It was her birthday, so March the 11th. And the reason why I went to London, and I presume, but this I don't, I don't know, remember, is why when we were, so the whole trip started because of Alberto Pinto, who is the decorator for the island and for New York as well. And he had wanted Epstein to go to see a house in Marrakesh, if I remember rightly, and went via the Alhambra. And it was also for New York. And Mexico. So there's architectural pieces that, and that was the basis of that trip. And I suspect now that that trip was planned all around the fact that I had to be in, wanted to be in, I was going to be in London no matter what for my mum's 80th birthday. At my brother's house in the country, which is approximately an hour, an hour and a half outside of London. And my brother's home. And we all congregated. We all congregated on the Saturday for her birthday celebration on the Sunday. And then we left. So that's that. The second reason why, probably maybe even the more important reason than my mum's birthday that I think it's absolute rubbish, is that Prince Andrew, the idea of him doing anything of that nature in my house. It's the size of this room. It's so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me as the man or what, I just can't, I can't even, no. Is there any way that it could have happened? No. Okay. Describe the physical plan. Oh, the physical. So the, my house was tiny. I think it's 900 square feet in total. Well, maybe that, is that right? Maybe. Maybe nine. It's on, it is on three floors, however. So you're talking about a little bit of space. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little, it's a jewel. It used to be a stable for a horse. It was the stables for the big houses. It was the, it was the little poor man's home behind the rich man's home. It's a jewel. It's a, was a gorgeous little place, but it is the size of a nut. If you make a noise, let's say a little burp or something, you don't want, you'd hear it. It just, where she says that they had relations in a bathroom. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I'm not a police or anything. I, it's not. The, the, first of all, the, first of all, the bath is an old Victorian bath. I could, I'm quite, quite small. Tight for me. I put my brother in there to see what would happen. It looks like a blivet, which is a sausage and a light, a very tight, tight skin. So her, her description of whatever the two people were doing in the tub, that wouldn't work. The bathroom itself is so small, you can't lie flat on the floor. So it couldn't happen on the floor because you physically, physically downed a crown. It was way bigger. It was, it was tight. physically can't this bathroom is too small to even be on the floor and then the kicker of all kickers is that because the bathroom was so small I decorated it to try and make it look huge which meant that I put mirrors the whole way around it and what was so fun about being in there is that if you stood in the bathroom you saw like a hundred of you like you do if you were in um yeah well Alice in Wonderland or one of those things that you would see yourself going stretching everything and it's the image if you said you were let's say you were let's let's say telling the truth she could say she was having sex with 5 000 generations of the royal family because that's how far back you could see yourself there is no way in god's green earth if that had taken place that this is something that you would miss because it's you couldn't miss it if you were standing there now you'd see the whole of the FBI is the whole department of justice standing behind you it's like no you did you um also explain where the tap was in the bathtub okay well it's an overdone and a tap so if you were in you're in the tub this is the tub my tap would be here I think no so you think it's kind of logistically and physically not something that could have well there's that and there's just Andrew he's so english he's so he's had a tie on you think there's any way it could have happened or no absolutely on no way no how absolutely not wait I haven't finished so okay sorry can I finish okay when all this nonsense took place where this whole story with the picture and that this and that that has a bit of I believe that this whole thing was manufactured and I can point you to some potentially corroborating evidence of this so when she gave the photograph to the FBI in Australia just just to be clear the photography tablet what you're talking about the famous one that had the image of it in the year It's Andrews holding *** and you're in the background. The fake. Just to be clear. So, on the back of that, and this is in the discovery, by the way. I don't know if it's in, I don't know which discovery I saw it in now, but this is it. She wrote, she *** wrote in the back that it was a picture that was taken in January of 2000 and, in 2000 or 2001, I don't remember. Okay. So now, in her handwriting that she's giving the FBI this picture, suddenly now it's March. So how do you go from her writing it's January to March? It's because it only, it's the only one that fit with the flight logs that when she could be in London and this took place. The second thing is that, oh, I'm so excited to tell you this. There is a journalist. I know you guys are quite, oh, the fake news is at work here. So, there's a journalist. There's a journalist called Sharon Churcher. There is a lawyer called Brad Edwards. These two, and there is a Southern District of Florida prosecutor called Villafana. I would very much look forward to showing you the relationship between these three parties that created that story. Well, without putting aside the relationship, why do you think they created that story? I believe that story was created for the purposes of, well, there are multiple. The first one is financial. The second one is for the purposes of the CVRA case. The third one was for the serialization, both of her book and in the papers, for the story to attack the family. And just as a... So, I think when you were just asked about the photo, you said you actually thought the photo was fake. Do you think it was just misdated or do you think it's literally a fake photo? I believe it's literally a fake photo. Why do you think that? Well, first of all, I don't remember it. We'll start with that. Right, okay. But the outfit I'm wearing? Yeah. Is the outfit from my mom's birthday party. So, but you don't have any... Do you dispute that they've met each other? Do you know whether they've met each other? I do not know that they met. Okay, so you not only... So you think the photograph is fake, but you also are not even positive they actually ever met each other. I am not. So you don't have a specific recollection of kind of being at an event or a party or your apartment? Or you're, you know, you're flat in London with Prince Andrew and... Absolutely not. She doesn't know one way or the other. I understand that. I want you to know that the reason why I, I'm not hesitant. I'm not, I don't have any memory of that. So that, that's not the issue. The issue is, could Andrew have come to the house to see me or see Epstein and say hi and she had been there? Yes. I can't say that that didn't happen. But what I can absolutely categorically say is that I never... At any time said Andrew up to have relations with her or any other human being ever. And I can categorically state that her characterisation of whatever may or may not have happened could physically would just know. And plus, I was in the country, so all of that's just not conceivable. Did you attend, did you attend... Social parties over, and again, I really now am focused on 2000 plus, so, so not, not the early years. Where Mr. Epstein would host the party or be a big part of the hosting of the party and some of, or many of the young women who were masseuses would be invited to the party as guests or as entertainment? I certainly went to his house when he would have people who would be there that were... I call them, I would, the way I would think of it and I would characterise it were his entourage. That's how I thought about it. And that certainly was in the later 2000s, yes. Did, did you attend any weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein? Again, I'm mostly focused on post, post 2000, but if there's something that comes to mind in the 90s, that's fine as well. A wedding? Wedding. Weddings. With, with, uh, Epstein? I don't think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein. But I can't think of a wedding that I ever went to with him. Um, do you know, um, so you don't remember, you didn't attend, um, President Clinton's daughter's wedding? I did. Chelsea Clinton's? I did. But that wasn't with Mr. Epstein? No, it was with Ted Waite, my boyfriend. Say that again? With Ted Waite, my boyfriend. Okay. Um, do you know whether Mr. Epstein was... Mr. Epstein was at that wedding? He was not. And how did you, did you have a relationship, well, why did you get invited to that wedding? Because Ted and Clinton were very close. And why, how were you close to them? Like, what, what was the reason you were close to them? I met, um, President Clinton, well, I, first of all, I went to the White House with Epstein once for, uh, I think it was for a historical, like, one of those benefits. And, um, I met the President then. But, like, a thousand other people shook his hand. Then after that, um, I had a very good friend of mine that was the, known to be the mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine. And Philip and the President were very good friends. And Philip was a very, and I were very good friends. And so I actually was introduced to the President post his coming out of the White House and became friendly with him. Because... Because of Philip Levine. Because of what? Philip Levine. Um, there's some names that have been publicly associated with, um, Mr. Epstein that I just want to ask you if you know about. Um, Piers Morgan. Is friendly with who? With, with Mr. Epstein. I have no idea. Never, I doubt it. Yeah, there's no trick question. I'm not trying to, I'm not, I'm not suggesting that I know the answer to it. Oh, all right. I'm genuinely just asking. All right. Well, I would be astonished. I can't imagine they'd have anything in common either. How about, were you friends with Piers Morgan? I, I've met him. Um, I've met him. I met him at, uh, an event in Manhattan. Uh, I can't remember what, uh, in, more recently, so probably in 2012, 30, something in that. And, and we had a very nice conversation. So I remember, I remember that. I remember thinking, I'd never, I'd never... I don't remember if I'd ever met him before, but I remember thinking how nice he was and how I was surprised. So I, I, I, I liked him. What can I tell you? So that, that's the only one, that's the only memory I have of that. I, I'm not sure if that's correct, but that's what I think. I don't have a correct or incorrect answer. No, I just don't know. I just, I just want to try and... No, no, but I, I don't, I want you to believe me, because I, I mean this. There is so much information in the public sphere... Oh, I see. Okay. ...about you and Mr. Epstein. And others around, and some of it is definitely true, and some of it is definitely false. Okay, all right. I just, I, because I... So when I ask a question, if I think that you're not being honest or that you're missing something, I'm not going to, this isn't got you. Okay. I'll say that to you. Did you ever meet JFK Jr.? I'm sorry? Did you ever meet JFK Jr.? Yes. When was that? I, I, um, I met him at Andrew Cuomo's wedding? No. Kerry, Kerry, Kerry's wedding? Kerry's wedding? Who did Kerry marry? Andrew Cuomo? Yes. Sorry. Okay. Andrew Cuomo's wedding. And when would that have been, approximately? 1990? So before... 1999? I don't, I, something like that. But would that have been before you met Mr. Epstein? Oh, maybe. Uh, yes. Did you ever, any sort of professional or social relationship with John F. Kennedy Jr.? I fancied him. You would? I thought he was very attractive. Oh, you fancied him? Ha ha ha. Sorry. Besides you finding him attractive and fanciing him, did you, did you have any sort of, you know, social relationship with him? I mean, we knew each other, and I, I thought he was wonderful and fun, and I enjoyed meeting him, but I, we, we went out, I, I wanted to say we had a dinner or two, but I was, I was very excited, but that was it. Um, and then Alan Dershowitz? I, what's the question? With Alan? Do you, say that again? What's the question? Do you, do you know? Um, do you know Mr. Dershowitz? Yes. Do you know whether he knew Mr. Epstein? Do you know the nature of their relationship? Okay, um, I definitely do know Alan. Um, I want, I'm just trying to remember if I knew him. I, I'm trying to remember how I met him. Okay. I met him separate from Epstein. I don't remember, so that I have no recollection. Um, I remember, um, I know that he was Epstein's lawyer. I don't know if they had any relationship prior to that. I don't remember. Oh, I do, actually, so I think they met at the same Martha's Vineyard through Lynn Forrester now. I, I think that's what happened. I think that's it. And why do you think that? Um, because it just popped in my head. Okay. Um, and did you, did you, um, you said that Mr. Dershowitz was Mr. Epstein's attorney. Do you know whether they also socialized? Um, so my personal memory of when I met him. Okay. Um, I remember two, I have two distinct memories with Alan. One is with him and his wife at the island, and I, I actually remember that. And I remember, I, I think going to his house in Boston. If he had a house in Boston, that's, there's only two times I remember. Did you ever observe, um, Mr. Dershowitz doing anything inappropriate with young women around Mr. Epstein? Never. Did you ever hear anybody, did anybody ever tell you that he had done anything inappropriate? Absolutely not. Did you ever, did you, do you know one way or the other whether Mr. Dershowitz ever got a massage at the island or any of the locations that, um, he was at with Mr. Epstein? I, I don't remember anything about him ever getting a massage. I don't remember, I have any record, I don't believe I ever even saw him in a bathroom. I have no knowledge of that. Okay. Um, I'm, I'm jumping around a, a little bit. Um, you've mentioned, I think briefly, but the Terramar project. Yes. What is that? Um, I founded Terramar in, well, the idea of Terramar came, I think, in 2010. So, um, I want to just explain Terramar a little bit. So, uh, Ted and I bought a boat, well, Ted bought the boat. And, um, it's, the basis of the boat was, um. It's, the basis of the boat was to do explorations and, um, sea, sea exploratory stuff. This really started because I have and have had since I was a child a love of the ocean and everything aquatic. And, um, I, um, I've always been, I just, I'm nervous about the state of the ocean. Okay. Um, and I, we worked with National Geographic, and we did exploratory work, and the most exciting, well, we did many exciting things, but one of the most fabulous ones that we did was we looked for Amelia Earhart twice. I did two expeditions to look for Amelia Earhart. As, as an example of an, of a exploration that we did. Um, and he, he had a foundation for the ocean, and, uh, we worked with a large number of people. Nat Geo. We worked with Woods Hole. We did amazing things. We bought, he bought the Remus 6000. So when the plane went missing, the plane that went to Air France from Brazil to Paris and went down, it was the Remus 6000 that found that plane. It was one of those deep sea underexploded. Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, I just, one of the things I did not want to give up was my love of the ocean and everything that we did. And Terramar, the genesis of Terramar came from that. So Terramar obviously means land, sea. And the story of the ocean is that Earth really shouldn't be called Earth. It should be called ocean because three quarters is the ocean. So, and so I wanted to not clash with anything to do with Ted because it was a bit awkward between us. And so he took the, all the part of the ocean that was close to land, so within 200 miles. And so I decided I would focus on all the part of the ocean that was outside of national borders, Terramar. And that's how that, that's the genesis of Terramar. So what was the time period of that? That, I think after I broke up with Ted, so 2010, 11 is when it started. And then I ran it all the way up until whenever the Epstein drama struck. And then I just shut it down, not, I shut it down because I didn't want what was happening to hurt any, the, the Smithsonian or Nat Geo or the, I just couldn't let everything be hurt by what was happening to me. Do you know Jean-Luc Brunel? Yes. How do you know him? I met him, so when I told you I was working for the European for my dad, and I was in charge. So back in like 90, early 90s. Yeah. And I was running a magazine. One of the things in the magazine is fashion. And so I was going to some fashion shows and I was looking for fashion sponsorship. And in fact, when I came to America, one of the, the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron Perlman at Revlon, who was great. And I met Jean-Luc through. Yeah. Through, through just in Paris, like that. But socially, not. Did Mr. Epstein know him as well? Did you later learn whether they knew each other? I'm not sure I, I don't, he would have, Epstein had his own fashion situation. So he would have, I don't, he didn't meet Jean-Luc through me. Did you ever observe them together over the years? Absolutely. Yeah. I saw them many times together. Did, did he visit the island? Yes. Did he go to Palm Beach, go to Palm Beach House? Yes, he went, yeah, he went everywhere. I saw him in every place. Did, do you ever observe him getting a massage? Or do you ever know whether they got a massage? Maybe you didn't observe it personally? You don't remember? I don't, I mean, I don't, I never, I have no conscious memory of Jean-Luc. I would imagine that he did, but I never, I don't. How about Mr. Weinstein, Harvey Weinstein? What would you like to know? What would you like to know? Do you know him? Yes. How do you know him? Like, I guess, when I say how do you know him, is it a relationship you had kind of separate from Mr. Epstein, or did you guys, did you meet him through Mr. Epstein, or? I wouldn't, first of all, I wouldn't say I had any type of relationship with Harvey Weinstein. Okay. In any context. Socially, I would meet him because I would go to events that Harvey would be at, and also his wife was English, Georgina. Mm. And so I was, I mean, friendly also would be a big word, more of an acquaintance, so we would see each other, and I would go to Miramax events. There was a couple of people who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with, his primary producer, whose name is Meryl Koster, who I was friendly with, and... Do you know whether Mr. Epstein had his own relationship with Mr. Weinstein? He did. Did they socialize together at the IWC? Did they socialize together at the island, or in Palm Beach, or New Mexico? I never saw Harvey at any of Epstein's houses, so socialize, I don't know that they were friends. I mean, I can't see them together either, I mean, literally. But I know that they certainly do that. I would imagine, and in fact I think I have a memory, but I can't, that when Harvey was trying to raise money for whatever his business was called. I can't remember what his business was called. Maybe he went there because Epstein was good at raising money. I just don't know. But I never saw them. I don't recall seeing Harvey in any of the properties. Let's go a few more minutes and take a break, I know it's after lunch, so... So, do you, we talked several hours ago about your father and his business a little bit. After your father passed, do you know whether Mr. Epstein was involved in your family business? Absolutely not, in any respect. First of all, there was no family business left, to start with that problem. And the second one is, my family didn't like him, very much. And they were busy dealing with their own problems, and there was no relationship whatsoever. I mean, he, my mum and he got along quite well, that was it, but that was, she's an old lady, he was nice to her. We're repeat, we're now, we're being a little repetitive, but... You're confident that before you met Mr. Epstein, he didn't know your father, and so there's no, he wouldn't have done business with your father's companies in the 80s either. Absolutely not. I'm 100% sure of that. I never met him, I never saw him, I never heard his name. No, nothing. So, there's been a lot of conversations about whether, Mr. Epstein maintained like a list of people, like a book of famous people that he knew, like a, it's called a black book, or a client list, or a list. Did you know of the existence of any such list? There is no list. We'll start with that. The genesis of that story, I can actually trace for you from its absolute inception. If that is what you're interested in. Well, first, first, you know, to be short, there is no list, there is no client list, nothing like that? No, there is nothing like that. That you know? That I, obviously, yeah. Okay, so you say you think you know the genesis, so go ahead, tell us. I'd like you to know that I have brought some supporting corroborative evidence. Well, tell me what it is too, and then we'll get the corroboration. Is this, is this, do you want to take a break here? Because this is a long story. This is a long story. Yeah, let's take a break, yeah. Let's take a break. All right, the time is 2.03, and we're going to take a break right now.