EFTA02731877

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We're continuing the proper interview with Ms. Maxwell. The time is 11.07 a.m. on Thursday, July 24th. All right. So just picking up where we just stopped, so you have basically a break. Well, not a break, that's the wrong word, but your relationship with Mr. Maxwell, professional and other changes in 2003, 2004? Well, yeah, I mean, over the time that I stay with Ted, the more time I'm with Ted, the more distance I have with him. And then when the arrest, well, let's go back, whatever happened in 2005 and he became arrested in 2006. So when he's charged and arrested in what we'll call the Florida investigations, that's what you're talking about? I am. Okay, go ahead. So I had... I was not in, well... Well, were you part of that investigation? Absolutely not. Did law enforcement ever talk to you as part of that? Did you, like, the feds never talk to you? No. The FBI never talked to you? No. I never even received a phone call. Did you, so you didn't receive a subpoena? No. Did the state law enforcement ever reach out to you? No. As far as you know, did the government, either state or federal, subpoena your bank records or something? Did they subpoena anything from your financial life during that time, during that time? Not as far as I'm aware. Now, if they did, I don't know it, and I have no idea about that, to be honest, but I'm not aware of it, and I would say no, but maybe you guys do things that I don't know. So how did you learn of that case when Mr. Epstein was arrested, or did you know that something was happening before then? The first thing I knew was he had told me he was deciding to... He had told me he was deciding to redecorate the house in Palm Beach. It didn't surprise me. It was like a rolling situation. But that time, are you doing, are you, like, he tells you because he wants your help, or had your relationship changed by this time where you were no longer kind of acting as his general manager? No, I was, I was still around. I wasn't gone. I was with Ted. I was traveling. I wasn't daily. If you'd asked me where he was in any given time, I'm not sure I would have known then. I mean, it was... I felt like, I suppose the relationship moved into sort of like a long-term friend, family, you know, like, like I felt he had with Eva, if I'm honest. Yeah, okay. So, so he says to you he's going to redecorate the Palm Beach house. He asked me specifically which decorator he thinks he should use, because I had a lot of contacts with decorators, and he was not very good with people, and he was useless. So, maintaining relationships with people who worked for him, I'm not. So, anyway, so I recommended, I think I recommended, I can't be 100% sure because it's been a long time, but I think I recommended Mark Zeff at that time. Who? Mark Zeff. Okay. I believe. And, I don't know why. I don't remember. That's all lost to time. But, anyway, at some point, I think his mother had died now. I can't remember the timing of all of that either. Okay. But, I ended up in Palm Beach, and he had asked me to come and look at the swatches or whatever he was doing, because they had laid it all out over the house and various things, and I think he'd asked for my opinion. That's my memory of this. It may also be that Ted and I were going to Palm Beach because Ted had a golf match or something. There was a reason I was in Palm Beach. It wasn't so leaf. I don't, maybe that's not true either. I don't know. Okay. There's a reason. But, you know, sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was there. I don't know if that's part of that time or not. Or Ted went there and left me. I don't know. Something. Anyway, I was there. No, that's not how that happened. Anyway, at some point in that time, I saw all the swatches. At some point in 2005, I think that was. And then, I believe, I don't remember. I think I got a phone call, actually. I wasn't in Palm Beach. I think I got a phone call that there was a police at his house. Or something. There was a... And you got a phone call from him? Or you think you were just told by somebody that knew that it happened? Or don't you remember? Definitely not him. Okay. I think it would have been the house. So, when that happens, whenever it was, that's kind of the first time you know that Mr. Epstein's being investigated for... I didn't even know what... I didn't even understand. Okay. I didn't have a context for that. It was like, I didn't even know. I didn't know. Okay. I didn't... I didn't... I'm not sure even what I thought. I was like, that's weird. After you find out about it, what happens with your relationship with him? I asked him what was going on. And he said, not to worry. Nothing. Nothing. Take care. Don't worry about it. And I thought, well... And then it went quiet. I didn't... He didn't say. He didn't share. I wasn't part of it at all. I was off with Ted and I really just... But did he tell you... Well, why don't we come back to more specific... Specifics around that time period in a few minutes. I want to just finish this opening part. So, that case goes on. Ultimately, it ends. What was your relationship like with him during that case? When he goes... You know, when he gets sentenced? He told me... He said, listen, I'm going to jail. I was like, well, okay. And he goes, I'd like you to stay on board. It... To men. To manage the properties, the animals, this and that. And just stay put and I'll continue to pay you. In case there's any emergency, I don't trust anyone. And I was like... Well, when you said continue to pay you, had he... He'd never stop paying me. He'd never stop paying... So, even when your relationship changes, you're getting... Does the amount increase from the $25,000 or so a year in the beginning? Like, how much are you getting paid yearly? I think it ended at the time... Well, we had different payment structures and I'm happy to explain how that works. But I think salary-wise... If I'm right, it ended at around a quarter of a million a year. How much? Quarter of a million. $250,000. And when did it end? When was that? That it stopped? 2008 or 9. So... 9. When did he come out of jail? Whenever he came out of jail. Okay. So, and over the years, it increased from what you said was... You thought about $25,000 to $250,000. That's between, like, 90... Early 90s until 2009 or 10. And whatever, he stopped. Is that right? Yes. And how were you paid? W-2. W-2 from which... From what company? Do you... He... Like, I... He just moved me around over to this company there. I didn't care. Okay. And I didn't care and I didn't think... I didn't understand any rhyme or reason. It doesn't... I just... You know, whatever. Okay. So, when he's going to go to jail, he says, can you stay around and manage everything? Yeah. And do you do that? I do. Okay. And then... And then... And then we'll come back to that. I will not manage everything, no. I mean, there are other people at this point. My specific role then was very, very diminished. Okay. I reviewed the bill structure that came from the constructions. It was still made... The island. Okay. And wherever else I was going. Paris at this point. Because I speak French. I'm fluent in French. And also, my relationship with the French decorator was critical to him. And the French component part of that aspect was really vital. And so, you'd have to... You'd have to find someone who was... Well, actually, and the Spanish, trilingual. You'd have to find someone who was trilingual to... And that he trusted. Did you... To not steal from him. Did you... So, when he gets out of jail, between that time, 2009 or 10, and 2019, what's your relationship like with Mr. Epstein? Almost non-existent. Why? I had just moved on. And I just didn't want to have anything to... I didn't want the drama. I didn't want to be associated with... So, do you recall... When you say almost non-existent, does that mean... Doesn't mean it. Some phone calls, some visits, some trips? What does it mean? I don't... I don't think there were any trips. Oh, I don't... I don't think so. Where were you living during that time period? Or was it... Which time period? Between 2009, 10, and 2019. I was back in New York. So, you... So, you had no... So, you had phone calls with him on occasion? Yes. Well, I certainly did. Whenever there was any legal drama or any, like, serious press intention, I always called him to try and find out what was going on. Okay. Okay. And I did email him at that time for those types of details. I was like, what do I do? I mean, I was like... And then, when he's charged in New York, federally, how did you learn about that case? In the press. And had you, as far as you know, been contacted by law enforcement before his arrest? No. I wasn't in an indictment. No, I know that. But even as a witness or asking you if you would give documents or materials... I had never... Up until... Up until when my lawyers said that... I don't even know... I had no knowledge of them being interested in me. Honestly. I don't... I want to say... I don't... I don't want to say until he had died. Now, I know that my lawyers were in touch with some district of New York at some point after his arrest. I'm pretty sure that had to have happened, right? Okay. But my understanding is that they had not shown any interest. I know my lawyers went to see them once, I believe. And... Went to see him, meaning Mr. Epstein? No, them. The southern district of New York. Okay, the southern district of New York. Sorry. And that they had been in regular... In touch with them. And... But now you're talking about after Mr. Epstein died, or are you talking about before he died? I think... If you can remember. It's easily verifiable. My memory is that they were in touch with him when he was arrested. I don't know if anything happened until after his death, then after that. Okay. I don't think they saw them, met with them, the southern district of New York I'm talking about now, until after he died. I know that they were in regular telephone contact with them, and that my lawyers believed that they had been told that there was no interest in me. Okay. And were absolutely stunned when I was arrested. Maybe stunned is too big a word, but surprised. I certainly was. Okay. So, let's... Okay, so that's... That was a long description of what was a very long life, and that was very helpful. So, I want to go back and talk more specifically, specifically now about particular areas, and that was a very helpful kind of foundation for us. The first thing I want to talk about, you talked about earlier on about Mr. Epstein's financial success. What, you know, do you know how he, when you first meet him at some point, you say, I got this place for you to rent, and you can't afford it, and he laughs at you and says, yes, I can. What did you learn about his... his wealth and how he was... and how he accumulated his money? I can tell you what he told me. Yes. So, I... I know that he was hired from working at a private school, whose name eludes me at this point. Dalton. Dalton. He was working at Dalton. He was a math teacher. And he met... I think it was Ace. I'm not sure. He met someone from Bear who hired him because he was very good at math. And I believe that he... he then worked on creating a trading of... Just describe it. It's okay. He came up with some new type of trading system. Not a system so much, but as a vehicle, a trading vehicle. Okay. That I'm just escaping right now. And this is while he was working at Bear? At Bear Stands, yes. Okay. And whilst... And was this before you met him? Yes. So, this is what he told you? Yes. And what you learned? Yes. This is what he told me himself. And so... And then eventually he starts a financial firm? Do you know that? To be true or no? Jay Epstein and Company, have you ever heard of that? I think it's... Yeah, yes. So, hang on a minute. So, I... This I did not know, but this I have subsequently learned is that he had some problem or some issue at Bear Stands and there was some disagreement. He wasn't fired because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace and with Jimmy, at least by the time. I met him. But they were working with him and he ran... He had money at Bear Stands. His money, his client's money. We'll come to that. But he started... He told me himself that he started a business where he looked for stolen money. So, if somebody... I'm trying to think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can't... I can't think of anything. I've been with... Not really... I'll give it to you. So, let's say you have El Chapo. Oh, God. I don't know where he comes from, but anyway, we've got El Chapo and El Chapo's laundering money or he's working with the Sinaloa cartel and he steals money from the Sinaloa cartel and he moves it to wherever. So, he's got stolen money from the Sinaloa, Sinaloa goes to... This didn't happen. I'm just... Yeah, yeah. I'm just coming up with something in my head. And the Sinaloa says to Epstein, can you track down... Can you track down my billion dollars that the other cartels stole from me? And Epstein will go and find the billion dollars and will take a portion of the money that was stolen as a fee and give back the remainder. That would be on a percentage basis. No, but like what you just described, which I appreciate was just a hypothetical... Please, that was completely hypothetical. But that would involve like so two kind of drug cartels stealing from each other. Practically speaking, did... He was... More of a businessman, correct? So, here's how I think it started is that he had a girlfriend. It was always good. You're always to the girls. I guess there was a girl whose name will come back to me. Maybe not whilst we're here, but I don't know. Maybe. There's a woman. There's always a woman. And he... She was the daughter of a billionaire, for instance. And that billionaire, whatever his name was, had had some money stolen. And for some reason, there's a woman who introduced Jeffrey. And Jeffrey, I think that's how that business started. That's what I remember. And is that something he told you about or something that happened while you knew him? No, something he told me before I met him. And so, when you meet him and once you're part of his life in the early to mid-90s, what is he doing to make money that you see? Does he have clients? Does he have rich clients? Does he have famous clients? And how... And what... If he does have clients, what service is he providing them? He does have... Well, obviously, there's the one very famous client that everybody talks about, which is Les Wexner. And that was a very important client to him. And he... I think it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine... What I imagine, no. What I know to be true about what he managed for Les. And there's some bits that I'll be improvising. Yep. I want to just make you understand I was not part of Epstein's business world, except tangentially and obviously. So, what I'm talking about is what I observed or what I overheard or what I saw within the business, but I wasn't responsible for any of the client's money or anything like that. So, it's separate. Yep, I understand. Okay. Go ahead. So, with Les, for instance, it was really all-encompassing. It could go from the structure of the business. So, he structured or restructured the limited. I know that. And I'll come back to that because I also traveled with him in Les. And I was in business meetings with him on the plane when they were there. So, I could observe and I could hear some of this. And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly business sophisticated, I'm sophisticated enough to be able to at least have some knowledge of what was happening. All right. So, then he restructured the business. He restructured his entire personal finance. And would also handle all of the investment strategy. I don't know if it was 100%. Mr. Wexner, you're saying? Sorry, yes. This is all Wexner I'm talking about now. So, let's say you had a billion dollars to invest. So, you would, you know, in people's normal investment portfolios, you'd have, you know, some T-balls and this and that. But Epstein's strategies, they would be much more sophisticated than that. And so, just staying with Mr. Wexner, does, from what you heard or saw, is Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages? Like, so there would be a deal and he would be paid? Or did you understand it to be like a flat fee? Was he a business partner? Like, how did you understand him to be paid? I think it was more a la carte. So, let's say, this is a conversation actually Epstein told me. So, oh, that illustrated for me. He said, if I saved someone five billion dollars, he would take a flat percentage of that five billion. He wouldn't have five billion back. And he would take... When you say you think that, is that because you heard him talking about that? Or you... It would be a combination of both. I certainly told me that and I heard him talk to people like that. I couldn't... Sorry. No, no, go ahead. No. Was there... Did he give... Did Mr. Wexner gift a property in New York to Mr. Epstein? So, we're talking about 71st Street. So, I don't know what the business deal was. Because, again, I'm not part of his business thing. But I think what happened would be that, let's say, Les owed him in theoretically for his services a hundred million or whatever it was. He could have traded that against the property. But do you know that that happened? Or are you kind of... Do you remember whether there were conversations about that? Or are you just thinking that could be one way that it happened? I'm not sure. I'm not trying to be... I just don't remember if that's something I know or if that's something that I remember or if it's something that I subsequently know. I believe that to be what happened. But I don't want to tell you that I have... Does that make sense? Did Mr. Wexner and Mr. Epstein... Are you aware of their falling out that they ultimately had? I think... I wasn't there. And I don't know how it happened. I only know what Les has said in the press. So, you... So, you only know about their, you know, their falling out or whatever you want to call it from what you've kind of read. Not from any first-hand knowledge. You weren't there. You weren't part of that. Correct. Do you know somebody named Steven Hoffenberg? Only from the press. Okay. And so, you don't know anything about whatever business relationship they may have had. Mr. Epstein... Never spoke about him. Never mentioned it. I only learned about that, whatever that is. I don't even know what the truth is of that story from the press. How about Leon Black? Oh, I did meet Leon. I do know Leon. When do you remember... And again, I know we're talking about a very long time ago, but do you remember approximately when you met him? I could have met Leon not really. So, I might have met him nothing to do because Leon Black is very good friends with other friends of mine. I would have met him when I say, socially, I might have met him. How Leon and Epstein became really good friends, I'm not sure. But not through you, as far as you're concerned? Not through me, as far as I know, no. In fact, I'm sure that's not through me. Do you know what kind of work Mr. Epstein was doing for Mr. Black over the years? The same as what he did for Wexner. So, we just talked about two individuals. And again, I know, we're talking about maybe a 15-year time period or even longer. How many clients like that did Mr. Epstein have? Well, why don't I just give you the names that I remember? Say that again? Why won't I just give you the names? Do you want the names? No, sure. Go ahead. Elizabeth Johnson. Johnson and Johnson. When did, as far as you know, when did the relationship between Ms. Johnson and Mr. Epstein start? 90s. 90. 90. I don't know. 95, 96. So, during the time period. Yes, we're talking 90s. We're talking when I was there. When I was around. How did the relationship start? I don't know how he became that friendly boy. He ended up managing her money. I wasn't there. I mean, he, I really had a separate life. We really had separate lives. Except where they sank. But it wasn't from, It wasn't from me. From you. No, it was not. Okay. And what's your understanding of what Mr. Epstein did for Ms. Johnson? The same as what he did for Wexner. And when I, and you have to understand, it went down to, in tiny detail. So, I remember, this I remember, this is an actual memory, that he would make the contracts for the maids, for the people who worked in their homes. So, he would assist his clients at times with, you're saying, with even small things like contractual relationships He said no detail was too small because everything that affected how they lived and how they managed their life was something that he felt he was, if they wanted, would be responsible for to make sure that the contract, so that if you had to fire someone it wouldn't come back and sue you or if it, that sort of thing. Okay, so, Mr. Black, Mr. Werner, Ms. Johnson, who else? There's someone named Jess Staley? Yeah, I do know Jess. Who's that? He was at Morgan Stanley and at Barclays. What, do you know whether he and Mr. Epstein had a relationship? Well, not a physical one. Well, I didn't suggest it. No, I'm saying a relationship in the broadest sense of the word. Business, personal, both? Yes, both. Okay. And do you know when they met? No, I, no, I don't know when they met. But you can time it. Oh, I don't know that you can. No, I don't know. So, but what was the nature of their relationship as far as you know? I think they were friends and I think that they were business partners. Well, partners, too strong a word, but they were they did business together. So, did you, again, I want to stay focused on the time when you were the most involved in his life. So, the early 90s through early 2000s. And the beginning of the 2000s, yes. Did you, so we talked about four people. There's more. Were there more? Oh, yes, there were more. There was a lady whose name I just can't, can I get my book? Maybe I wrote them down. Sure. Epstein wouldn't really let me meet his clients. What book are you, what is that? I'd like some notes for the meeting. Okay, great, okay. Is that right? No, that's fine. I just was curious what we're looking at. Oh, okay. Not the birthday book. It's not the birthday book. No, we're going to come to that, I'm sure. Yeah. All right. I wrote down some names because I tried to make, I just want you to understand my memory's not as good as it was because when I was in Brooklyn, I was in the shoe for almost two years and I was on suicide watch for almost two years, which meant that they woke me up every 15 minutes. I was in the shoe for almost two years, for almost 15 minutes for the entire time and it really did affect my ability to... I understand. Okay. So I'm not... So you've taken some notes in anticipation. I just made some names in advance of it. And you're happy to look at them. No, go ahead. Okay. Well, funny you said it. First two names, one is Wexner, two is Staley, three is Leon Black. Okay. Glenn Dubin was a client. Who's that? Eva Dubin's husband. Okay. What was that? Was there... I mean, if you can... Do you know when... about when that relationship started? Whenever... Well, it wouldn't have been before they got married, for sure. So we're going to start... We're going to date that from wherever that was. And then Epstein was heavily involved with Highbridge Capital and the financing or selling of Highbridge to J.P. Morgan. Okay. Go ahead. That was a Dubin. Yeah. Okay, you're only looking for clients. All right. There's a woman... Well, there's a woman in Ohio. I just can't think of her name, but it will... I tried to remember it yesterday and I can't remember. So this is a good thing. You know, as you think of things, write it down. And if they have any other names, they'll ask you. But don't force it out. So you'll have time to think about this, especially today and this afternoon and overnight because we'll probably meet tomorrow. But you can find them. I mean, if you basically find a billionaire, female... So there's a woman in Ohio who's wealthy. Well, you can identify her yourself because she had... the largest Klein painting that was huge. So you can find her because it'll be in the museum. So that's her. So he... That was one of Mr. Epstein's clients. She was one of Mr. Klein's... Mr. Epstein's clients as well. Yes. Okay. Who else? Well, I think that there was people, other people that he would, like, assist. I know that he helped Lynn Forrester who became Linda Rothschild. She'll deny it and she has, but she... And when you say help, the same... Well, help in business or what will help? I have no idea what he did for her. I know he helped her financially. Her husband was the controller of New York. So, but I don't... Again, I'm not inside his business, but he would have... His... This notion that he blackmailed men would... We don't really have to go there. That he wasn't a businessman and that everything he did was a fraud or a funk or whatever. I don't believe that to be true. Why? Sorry? Why do you... So you say you don't believe it to be true, but show me why you think that. Just from... I know you've been talking about it, that he was very... He was very conscientious. He was very good at math. He was... Paid a lot of attention to his clients, but yes, you're right. There's allegations of blackmail or also that there was some level of fraud involved in what he did and you don't believe it. Why do you say that? Well, let me rephrase that. If there was fraud, I never saw it. What I saw or what I felt when I... I ran that office. I mean, ran. I didn't... I was responsible for the staff people worked. There were lawyers. There were accountants. I never heard him... I never... I never felt anything... icky. Did you ever see him blackmail a client? Did you ever see him blackmail a friend or an acquaintance? No. Okay. Well, so... I think when folks talk about blackmail and we can talk about... Sorry about that. We can talk about that now. There are a lot of allegations about him which we should talk about and we can do that now and the fact that he abused young women. Yes. Full stop. Okay? Which means the way that I'm defining abuse as has been widely reported is that that he would cause young women in high school to be recruited to come to his house and give him massages and as part of that he would be able to give them massages and as part of that he would be able to he would sexually abuse them. Yes. So, I want to talk about that but as it relates to blackmail the question is whether you're aware of any time that any of the individuals we're talking about and we'll talk about others receive massages from women who are under 18 or may have been under 18 and that whether there was any sexual assaults or sexual contact between any of the women and those people and those masseuses which would have allowed them Mr. Epstein potentially to blackmail them and say you have to continue to work with me or you have to give me money or else I'm going to tell the world that you did this. Right. I think this is a really good place to start with how this story began. Okay. So, even let's assume that that premise is correct that you're not he was doing that and he was going to tell everybody going to say oh, you know you had inappropriate relations with an underage girl if you don't have video or photographic photographic evidence I'm not sure that even the FBI would take that well, maybe today but certainly not would take that seriously. So, you have to have something to say hey, you know look, I've got this video of you doing terrible things and and you need to so I built those houses many of them I decorated those houses I put the electricians in for the wiring I never wired nor saw a single house that had any type of inappropriate let's say video surveillance and I'll define that for you inappropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom in a bedroom in a room in any private area of a home in a room where there were massages given inappropriate I would say I would define appropriate surveillance to be the front door of a house or potentially as in 71st Street the physical plant anywhere else would be grotesque so I just want to come back to I know I'm just hopefully staying in the obvious but when you say the houses you're talking about his New York brownstone yes you're talking about the island in the Caribbean yes you're talking about the residence in Palm Beach yes and you're talking about the ranch in New Mexico yes anywhere else Paris and in Paris and so and the plane I saw some ridiculous thing with the plane that was well my joy I didn't hire any electrician on the plane so unequivocally unequivocally from what you know and you only know what you know I only know what I know but from what you know you do not believe a camera exists or a video camera or a camera that takes pictures inside any of his residences correct so even the appropriate cameras that you just talked about which would be kind of exterior security cameras did you know whether there was any cameras that you're aware of inside any of the locations never with one exception okay what's the exception the exception is Palm Beach okay and the reason so in Palm Beach Epstein was having money stolen he noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase call it his briefcase and he called in the Palm Beach police and they the Palm Beach police installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase where was that do you remember at his desk in so the house on the ground floor was he had a desk sort of in a corner there was that camera I think there was another camera I think there were two or maybe three cameras I believe only on the ground floor wherever he may have had maybe he had another office in the cabana there may have been a camera there when was this I'm not looking for an exact date but what time period are you thinking about when you said 2003 2003 2003 2003 I think I can date it for you precisely actually 2003 I'm pretty firm on that date and I can be firm because John Alessi the butler was fired in the end of 2002 and he was the thief so aside from law enforcement installing a camera to try to catch somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein you're not aware of any cameras the island no no I'm sorry just so we record oh sorry sorry that's okay you were nodding your head no so what about no cameras anywhere outside of possibly things that I would consider myself I would consider normal so the garage gate something like that a front door outside like security cameras security cameras and there were cameras inside in the 71st street that did the plant the physical plant because it was a commercial building so you had the whole that's a real thing there it's a commercial building and there were cameras there was one camera on the front door internal from the internal that did the front door as I recall but there were no other cameras inside the house did you ever how about photographs did you ever observe Mr. Epstein or anybody around him take pictures of anybody in compromising positions with women or with or with anybody no did you ever hear when you were present for conversations Mr. Epstein was having or others were having anybody accuse him of blackmailing them or of trying to extort them because of something Mr. Epstein knew no there have been and you in the discovery you got in the New York case yes yes I did and in the civil cases that you've been part of associated with Mr. Epstein have you ever been given or ever been told that video exists like what we're talking about or photos were taken that that were compromising so in the in both of those I received no pictures or anything from the civil case but in the criminal case I received videos of Epstein talking to women and stuff like that I did get those I also saw binders photographs of women um entertainment I never saw any I don't know how old some of these women were there were definitely some of the victims from Palm Beach the photographs of them um in in in those photographs were the victims that were photographed were there any of the people you've talked about like were there men with the victims or were they just photographs of the victims there was no men with these pictures there was no client of his with those pictures they would be stand alone for want of a better word like modeling shots if you were if you if you were pictures that Epstein had with the girls but not Epstein with the clients and the girls correct did you um I know I understand you said you got those um in the discovery did you know those those pictures pictures like that existed so right now I'm talking about photographs of um victims or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein had on his computer or wherever he had them did you know that those photos existed before you got them in discovery some of them absolutely because they were in his house some of these pictures were on his you know credenza or whatever some pictures I've certainly never seen before I mean there was I've never seen some of them some of them I had some of them I hadn't I mean um did you so so you're right and I I accept that having video or photographs of somebody famous or powerful in a compromising position would be good blackmail but so separate putting aside what you've said about the fact that you don't know of any existence of those um did you observe over the years the folks we're talking about or others which we can talk about getting massages from young women um so I just I think it's really helpful to understand a few things that has been missed in this whole mishegas that's a technical term I'll look it up later go ahead I thought about this obviously a lot and I've given it some so this is the benefit of some benefit of what I saw and some benefit of what I now think so just for clarity's sake I think I just want to say for the record that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of not all but some of what he's accused of and I'm not here to defend him in any respect whatsoever I don't want to and I don't think he requires nor deserves any type of protection or um for me in any way to sugarcoat it I don't want to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do so there's that however the man I met and the man he became I believe that there is a progression and I don't think that the man I met is the man that he became I believe he became that man over a period of time now we can discuss anything you want and I'll tell you everything I know but I think somebody who has an interest however you define it in underage people is obviously someone who is unwell but I don't think that you wake up one day and you start doing what he's accused of I think this is something that you that you develop or you progress to I I think because before you get into all that let's answer the top line question right sure question and then get into it. Okay, the top line question is... Did you ever see any of these people with underage women? No, no. So the reason I'm saying that is not to avoid that question, but it's because by the time, when you're talking in the 90s, I don't think he was there. That description, I think that this, what you're talking about is a later version. Yeah, and... Is that... No, I understand that. And I do want to talk, I'm not... So it's just, I think you need to separate the periods of time. Sure. Because it, this, one of the things that was definitely missing in my trial, and definitely missing from the narrative, is this notion, this, everything happened and he was always a bit, no, I don't believe that to be true. So, that's fine, and I do want to talk about that. I'm not pushing that away, I'm just putting it aside for a moment. What Mr. Epstein did, and frankly what you did, or are accused of doing... Is one thing that we'll talk about. But what, right now, what I want to understand is whether one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his clients, or took care of them, or some would say blackmailed them, was by encouraging them to have, to interact with women, underage or not. So I think in the 90s, he may have encouraged them, but these were people who were in their 20s or 30s. So he would have a masseuse, right? And he did. Male and female, by the way, in the 90s. It's never been discussed. Both in yoga and everything, there were men as well as women. And so, if he would travel, and I can show them to you, I've highlighted them on the flight record so you could see that there really were men that were also there. He would say, would you like to do yoga with Tito, or would you like a massage with this one? But they would be in their late 20s, and professional masseuses. Right. So... So I think there's a distinction. And I want to talk about actual individuals here, but, and I understand the distinction between somebody who's an adult and someone who's underage. But even with somebody who's an adult, did you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that, whether it's a client or somebody else? So with a, I certainly witnessed him, so if you were staying with him and you had a massage, that he would often travel with a masseuse. He would say, hey, would you like a massage? He did, he did do that, yes. But would you or him or anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual concept? I never did, no. So meaning, and then coming back to the blackmail issue, there's nothing wrong with getting a massage. Of course not. Especially, you know, especially if somebody's obviously an adult and a masseuse. I'm not quibbling with that. But my question is that there's a lot of accusations that one of the ways Mr. Maxwell, I'm sorry, Mr. Epstein was successful was through this idea of blackmail. I never. And yes, young women is a crime. Children are, is a crime. Absolutely. But even women over the age of 18, if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or whomever to get massages and have inappropriate sexual contact with the masseuses, that's a separate issue, maybe slightly nuanced. But did you ever know him to do that? I never did, absolutely, myself. I never heard him ask someone. I never, I never heard that. I never, no one, in the entire time I was with him or friends with him or had anyone, no one ever reported to me or came to me and said that anything inappropriate happened or was upset by it. I never saw, I never saw ever any of that. And when you say no one ever reported to me, meaning like the masseuses or any of the house staff? Never. Or the clients? Or the clients themselves? Never. So, so let's. So let's, again, I want to stay and, and coming back now to what you were talking about a moment ago with Mr. Epstein's kind of progression or, or, or getting worse, just, just staying within the 90s, what role, what did, what role did you have or what did you observe, which are two different issues but both important, with respect to recruiting masseuses to come to either, I guess, Palm Beach or to travel or eventually New Mexico, what role did you have in that? He asked me to find masseuses for him. Say that again? He asked me if I could find him masseuses. Okay. Like as part of, like you said you were his general mattress, as part of all your, your duties, that was one of them. And I did do that. So the first person I believe that I introduced him to as a masseuse was somebody called . She was, I don't know, mid, late 20s, professional masseuse. Was this something that happened early on in your relationship or, and again, I know we're talking about the 90s, but. Yeah. Are we talking about early 90s or is this later on? So in terms of massage, I am a, I've had a lot of injuries. I do a lot of dangerous sports and have had multiple serious accidents and walk without any lameness because of physical therapy and massage. I've, that to me is a very, it's medicinal for me. Okay. So Epstein, whatever his massage situation, whatever, he loved massage. And if I met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or masseur, I introduced them. And he, cause I got them and he asked me if I did and I said yes. And that's, I'm pretty sure that would have, well I can't remember, 93, 92 early. Okay. From the beginning. So, so go ahead. So then what happens over the next, you know, like, you know, you've, like, there's been, there's a ton of writing and a ton of, I guess, testimony as well, but also public reporting about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort that you were a part of and that he was a part of and others to try to find more and more masseuses. What, is that, is that true? And what role did you have in that? That is partially true. Okay. So it is true that I found masseuses. And he became a masseuse. Okay. He was more insistent. He, he, he liked new all the time. He got bored. So he would be bored with other masseuse and he would say, find me a new masseuse. I am the entire opposite. If I find someone that I like, I stay with them. I'm like, I don't want new. He would drive for new. So that is true. And in my effort to find them, I would go to massage spas, like legitimate spas, not, we're not talking, you know, funky ones that people like. Okay. And I, if I got a massage from somebody in a spa that was, I liked, I liked. I asked them if they would do home visits. If they said yes, I would ask them to come to the house and he would see if he liked them or not. But these were people who worked in spas. I never ever checked their age and I never checked their credentials. I never asked for a certificate. What, but just to be clear, you never thought anybody was under 18? I never crossed, I never, no, that was never my, that was never a drive. Okay. So what, what did you know at the time about Mr. Epstein requiring masseuses to be naked or requiring masseuses to either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein or to be there if Mr. Epstein masturbated or things like that? And again, I'm asking you about a 15-year period or whatever, 10-year period. So I appreciate that's a very broad question. So answer it in a way that, you know, addresses what you've been charged with doing, but also, you know, I'm asking you about a 15-year period or whatever, 10-year period. So I appreciate that's a very broad question. So answer it in a way that, you know, addresses what you've been charged with doing, but also, you know, addresses what you've been charged with doing, but also, you know, addresses what you've been charged with doing, but also, what's been said about you. Okay. So I don't, the 90s, I don't think that I ever thought, that never would cross my mind. I'm not sure that I thought about that in those contexts at all until his arrest and those papers came out. But I believe the subject of the question that you're asking me, I believe started in the 2000s. In the 2000 time period? Yes. 2000. Why do you think, like what in your mind makes you think that that's the time that it started? I think because in December of 2001 he met and I think was responsible for that in its entirety. And the reason I believe that, so this, she was a self-confessed having been sexually abused as a young girl and was trained, her words I'm quoting now, not mine, in all the arts of whatever that is, the sex program, by a man called Ron Eppinger, who was her pimp from when she was 14, I believe, or 15, I don't know. And in her book describes him training her. Okay. And training her to be what every man wants in all its manners, fellatio and everything else. I believe that then what happened was that he met her and she came as a masseuse to his house in December of 2001 is when I think it started. Now what their relationship was and what happened with them in that early period of time I cannot say. What I can say is that he liked her and she started to travel with him at that time period. I believe, I know then what happened was that she, when she first started to see him or first came into his orbit as his masseuse or whatever, she was engaged to be married and wearing an engagement ring and was living with her fiancé. She broke up after a few months with her fiancé and took up with the local drug dealer. So let's say after four or five months of, in the time period when she was seeing Epstein, let's say, we're now May, June of 2002, or is it 2002? Okay, from whenever she hits the, whatever that is, if that's 2000, I think it's 2000, I'm sorry. I think it's when she met him, December of 2000. So then you go through, I don't remember, you'll have to look. Okay. I'm not holding you to exact dates. No, I mean I'm just trying to, I'm giving the, so then I think, so she takes up with the local drug dealer and she becomes a druggie druggie. Like, you know how druggies, well maybe they don't, but I live with a lot in Tallahassee. They become even more unreliable than normal. And at some point, you know, she's now working somewhere else. He stops seeing her because he doesn't like people who do drugs. And I think that not seeing her lasted five or six months. And in that period of time, she got arrested for theft. And she had a warrant out for her arrest. Now let's have peace together because there's peace I didn't know. She then called Epstein to have help avoiding the warrant for her arrest. He sent her to Thailand to get a massage therapy license. This is the bit that I guess, this is the bit that I extrapolated. In the period of time from when she came back to when she left, he asked her to replace herself as his masseuse or whatever, whatever she was doing. And she brought the first replacement for her that would have been one of the accusers, in my case, I think, would have been. And that and then everyone who came subsequent simultaneously, if she wasn't the first, I don't know. Everyone, every single person who came to his house came through and her boyfriend Tony and then whoever else underneath her. And that is how it started. So before her. Tony Figueroa. Tony Figueroa is her boyfriend. Before her. So now going back in the 90s. You don't believe that Mr. Epstein was abusing masseuses? Underage. Or overage. I mean, I think, I'm using abuse in the broadest sense of the word because I'm assuming that you said that you have no idea what the year, you always assumed the masseuses were overage, right? So when I'm talking about abuse, I'm even talking about an adult masseuse comes in to give a massage and is told to take off their clothes. Told they're not going to get paid if they don't take off their clothes. Basically suggested they had to watch him masturbate. Like the things that have been publicly said about what he did. I'm not. For now, I'm not, I'm not distinguishing adults or young or underage women for that. I'm saying abuse. I'm going to think that that would have been a habit. Okay. I'm going to say that the massage game was a habit. What does that mean? That means that I'm sure that he didn't suddenly start having relations with masseuses in 2002. Okay. I'm sure he must have had relations with masseuses. Who knows what. But you're saying as far as you, I use the word abuse. You're saying that as far as you sit here today, you would describe that more as consensual. Meaning the masseuse did those, did this willingly. I saw him with lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So based on. Based on my observation, I don't think that if you are being raped, as now he's saying, this prolific, I just can't imagine why you would retire. It's not what you observed at the time. Not what I observed at the time, no. I want to, we're going to spend a little, we're going to spend more time on this issue because I think it's important. But just going back to kind of the question that I started with in this area, which is that it ties into the blackmail issue. So we talked about people that were his clients. And you've mentioned President Clinton and then early on. Oh, I never said he was a client. I did not say you said. I'm saying you talk about his clients. Oh, okay, right. Puts his clients off to the side. And then you mentioned some other people. You mentioned President Clinton. You mentioned President Trump early on. Who were other famous slash politicians? Who were other individuals in Mr. Epstein's life during that time period? So the early 90s. The 90s. Should we just? Yes. Okay. Congressman McMillan. Say that again. McMillan. Okay. Henry Rosovsky, who was the Provost of Harvard. Hang on today. Sure. You're looking at your notes. Yes. Go ahead. Go ahead. Joe Pagano, Jerry Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper. Okay. Dan Abramson. I don't know if in the 90s, Tom Pritzker. Ace, Jimmy Cain, Lou Ranieri. I mean, there were. What about the royal family? No, he didn't know them in the 90s. What about the, what about Prince Andrew? Didn't know him in the 90s. Oh, well. Is that right? I wouldn't know that. I do not know. So, I don't want you to worry about exact dates. You're not positive about that, but you don't have a specific recollection of that being in the 90s. No. Okay. I can date it for you, I think, but I can't give you the exact dates. That's okay. That's fine. So, with respect to, and we'll take a break in a minute to get some food, but just with respect to Mr., with respect to the individuals you just talked about, so again, focus on the 90s, and so the people that I'm talking about right now, and we might add some names later. So, we're talking about the clients that he worked with, which you've mentioned several of, and I know that that wasn't exhaustive, but you've mentioned several of them, and then the kind of what I called famous friends, but the prominent individuals that were in his life in the 90s. Did, does any stick out in your mind as having received massages? All of them. Henry Wazowski received a massage. And why do you, why does that stick out in your memory? Because I saw him in a bathrobe at 71st Street, and he had received a massage. He told me. And do you know whether that, whether there was any, whether the masseuse was naked during that massage? I wouldn't have any idea. Do you know whether he... I doubt it. He was like in his 80s. Say that again? I doubt it. He was like in his 80s. Okay. So, but do you know, notwithstanding his age... Oh, Minsky. Minsky. Say that again? Minsky was another person. Do you know whether, for example, President Clinton ever received a massage? I don't believe he did. And what makes you say you don't believe he did? Well, because I don't, so, that's a good question. The time that Epstein and President Clinton spent together, the only times I believe, well, obviously they traveled. There was that, you know, they came, they went on the plane 26 times or whatever. That would be one journey. So they spent time on the plane together, and I don't believe there was ever a massage on the plane. So that would have been the only time that I think that President Clinton could have even received a massage, and he didn't, because I was there. And you mentioned that early, in the very beginning of the conversation, you mentioned President Trump in the early 90s. Yes. What did you observe as far as President Trump and his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein? Well, I just want to say from my relationship with President Trump, relationship's a big word, but I just want to say that I met him, or I believe I may have, because of my father in the 90s. Yep. Okay. So my father liked him very much, and he really liked his wife as well, because they were both Czechoslovakian. And as far as I'm concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me, and I just want to say that I find, I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the President now, and I like him, and I've always liked him. So that is the sum and substance of my entire relationship with him. What about Mr. Epstein's relationship with him? I don't know how they met, and I don't know how they became friends. I certainly saw them together, and I remember the few times I observed them together, that they were friendly. I mean, they seemed friendly. Was that in social settings, or was that in private settings? I believe I only ever saw them in social settings. I don't recall any private settings. Did you ever, have you ever been to Mar-a-Lago and Palm Beach? I have. And what time period are you thinking about when you say yes? I don't remember when the President purchased Mar-a-Lago. So from whenever it turned into a club, I went there, and I loved going there. Did you go there alone or with Mr. Epstein? Mostly alone. The only times I went there was for an event, maybe once or twice. And do you know whether Mr. Epstein ever went there? I believe he did, but again... We really were... He didn't take me with him all the time, so he would go and... Oh, right. He never... I never... Well, he did from time to time, but he would go alone. I think he would maybe go himself to the spa. I certainly did. Did you ever observe President Trump receive a massage? Never. Did you ever observe... You said that you... I mean, have you seen the... There's photographs, public photographs of Mr. Epstein and President Trump together. Yes. And there's photographs of... I think you're in some of the photographs as well. Yes. Those all appear to be social settings. Yes. Do you... That's my memory. There were social settings. I don't know... Epstein's... If he had... Whatever the nature of the President's friendship, if you will, or however you want to define that with Epstein, I was never witness. I think they were... I think they were friendly, like people are in social settings. I don't... I don't think they were close friends or... I certainly never witnessed the President in any of... I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance. I actually never saw the President in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the President in any inappropriate setting in any way. The President was never inappropriate with anybody. In the times that I was with him, he was... I was with him, he was a gentleman, in all respects. When's the last time you think you saw, in person, President Trump? It's been a long time. Probably not... Sometime in the beginning... Mid-2000s, maybe? And it would only have been a social setting, as far as I recall. And did you ever hear Mr. Epstein, or anybody, say that President Trump had... done anything inappropriate with masseuses, or with anybody in your world? Absolutely never. In any context. Do you know whether masseuses from Mar-a-Lago Spa... ended up giving massages to... private massages to Mr. Epstein? I'm not asking what you may have read, but from... at the time, from your personal knowledge, do you know whether that's true? I don't... I don't recall. Is it possible? Yes. But I don't remember... I don't remember that. So I don't want to... I don't recall that, but it's possible. Do you have recollection of you ever recruiting a masseuse from... Mar-a-Lago Spa to give... to go give a private massage to Mr. Epstein? I've never recruited a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago... for that, as far as I remember. I can't ever recollect doing that. Okay, so what I think we should do now, it's about 12.15, we'll take a break, and we will come back in a little bit. Okay.