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I'm going to ask everybody to put their name on the record, of course. Good morning. My name is Assistant Special Agent in Charge of FBI New York. Today we are doing a proper of Ms. Maxwell. The date is July 24th, and the time is 10-12 a.m. This interview is being recorded. And my name is Todd Blanche. I'm the Deputy Attorney General, and before we start formally asking questions of Ms. Maxwell, I'm going to put on the record everybody that's in this room in addition to me. Starting with you, Diego. Diego Pistona, Associate Deputy Attorney General. And then you heard from Special Agent in Charge from the United States Marshal Service is here as well. And then David. Yes, this is David Oscar Marcus. And I'm... I'm Counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell. My name is Thea Sapien, and I'm Counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell. My name is Melissa Madrigal, and I'm Counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell. Go ahead. And I'm Ghislaine Maxwell. Good morning, Ms. Maxwell. How are you? Good morning, Mr. Blanche. Good. Okay, so before we started recording, we met for a few minutes. I introduced myself, and we chatted, and now I told you that we were going on the record. And before we start asking questions, I know that you've been given by your lawyer a copy of what's called a proffer agreement. And I just want to spend two minutes making sure that you understand what governs our conversation today. The most important part of this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement, meaning that by you meeting with us today, we're really just meeting. I'm not promising to do anything. I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or any of the judges that have been assigned to your case to do anything. We're just talking, and so that's the most important part of this agreement. However, almost as important is the fact that what this agreement does for you is it gives you protection. So what it means is that the government cannot use what you say today against you, with some exceptions, which we'll talk about in a minute. Okay. Whatever you talk about today, you have what's called immunity. So that means that the words that you say today, we cannot use against you in a case in chief if we were ever to bring one. Okay? Thank you. There's exceptions to that, the most meaningful one of which is that if you say something today that's not true, that's a lie, we can bring a prosecution against you for what's called false statements. So I'm a federal officer. I have several officers here. The FBI is here. And if you lie to someone that's like me or like Special Agent ***, it's a crime. So you have to be truthful. The other exception to this that doesn't necessarily apply directly to you, but if there ever was a retrial in your case, or if there ever was a criminal case, a future criminal case against you, and your lawyer or you said something different or took a position that's different than what you say today, we can then cross-examine you or a witness based upon what you say today. So it's a little bit nuanced, meaning I can't use what you say against you in our case in chief. However, if you were to testify or if your lawyer called a witness to testify and they said something that is totally different than what you say today, we could then cross-examine you or the witness and say, Hey, do you remember when we met with Ms. Maxwell back in July of 2020? Okay. She told us and then say what she said. Okay? I understand. Okay. Other than that, I know you didn't have a lot of time this morning to meet with Mr. Marcus, but did you have a chance to go over this briefly with him? I did. Okay. All right. So I've already signed it, as has Special Agent ***, and Mr. Marcus signed it as well. So you got a pen? Please sign it right where it says Clients. Yep. And I will provide a copy of this too. To your lawyers, so you guys have it. Okay. Thank you. So, Ms. Maxwell, about a week and a half ago or two weeks ago... Can you see the light blinking on there? On the Sony? Yeah, there it is. Okay. We're just confirming that it works and it does. Ms. Maxwell, I guess about a week and a half or two weeks ago, Mr. Marcus reached out to me and said that you wanted to speak with somebody from the government about not only your case, but about everything that's been in the media and that's been publicized about Mr. Epstein in your case. That is true, and I did speak to him, and I did tell him that I'm very keen to talk to anyone, because no one from the government at any time ever knew me since the inception of the case. So, dating back to... I don't know, the early 2000s, has ever spoken to me, and indeed, I believe, ever reached out to me at any time to even speak to me. And that includes up to when I was indicted and prosecuted. I believe that, or I understand, I should say, rather, that my attorneys at the time did tell the government that I wanted to speak to them, because I was... very keen to meet with anyone so that I could tell... have them ask me any questions. I've never had any problem to speak to anybody, and I offered myself, and I kept asking if they would meet with me so that I could talk to them, and for whatever reason, that was not happening. Okay. I have questions that I want to ask you, but I'm not... Okay. I have questions that I want to ask you, but I'm not... If there's a path that... a question that I'm not asking that you think should be asked, I invite you to volunteer. Same thing goes to your lawyers. Just to start a little bit, very briefly, can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein? I know that goes back a while. And just very generally talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein from the time you met him all the way up until his death. I... I met Mr. Epstein in 1991. My... I had never heard of him or met him before, and no one in my family had ever either. My father never knew him, and I'll explain why that is the case. Where did you... where did you meet him? I had a girlfriend who... I was... Yeah. I had moved to America briefly in... well, I had moved to America in 1990. Okay. I... well, moved is a good word. I had come to visit America in 1990. I had been running my own company up until that time, which was a company called Maxwell's Corporate Gifts. And I had also been working for my father at the time. I had had multiple jobs with him. I was... In 1990, I was working with a new company of his, a new newspaper that he was launching called The European. And I was in charge of launching a magazine to go with The European. And I was traveling at that time from England to America. Because my father was looking to... well, he'd also bought Macmillan, the publishing house, and he had purchased the New York Daily News. And it's true to say that my father always wanted me to come back full-time and work for him. But that's a much longer story. I don't think we need to go into it this time. So... But I was always working with him. There was no escaping, as it were, to work for him. So in 1990, I had come over to New York to help look at some of that. He was having some advertising issues with the New York Daily News. And in fact, I met... I may have met Donald Trump at that time because my father was friendly with him. And liked him very much. And I think it should be said that he also very much liked Ivana because she was also from Czechoslovakia, where my dad was from. So I don't remember if I did meet him or not in 1990 with my dad, but I knew that that's how I knew about Mr. Trump. And this was before you met Mr. Epstein? This was before I met Mr. Epstein, yes. So I was already going backwards and forwards in America. And then in April of 1991, I came to New York. I can't remember for what reason, what business reason, but there was a business... something to do with my dad at that time. And a girlfriend of mine, who... an American, told me... I'd broken up with my long... I'd been engaged... Getting... With a very long-term boyfriend and we'd broken up. And she said, you know, as you girlfriends do, I've got a guy for you to meet. And I was like, who is it? And she goes, it's... he's been dating my sister. And you all love him. He's looking for a wife. I'm edging towards 30. I don't need to tell you guys. That's a very important moment for a girl. To, like, think about and report the things. And I sure have been happy to meet him. And so sometime in 1991... we're in 1991. I met him at his offices in... on Madison Avenue. And I think the most memorable thing I can think about is he was wearing a tie, which he didn't often do. And it had a giant tomato ketchup stain on it. So I was like, wow, okay. And that was how we met. Was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally? Or were you... were you there? I was just... For work-related reasons. No, I knew nothing about him. Okay. He just invited me to come and have tea. And I was like, tea? That's English. Okay. But what was unusual was in his offices. So I went to his offices. And we met. And I found him very engaging. And that was that. So, okay. So that's how you meet him. So... And again, I don't want to spend a lot of time, you know, on... on this point. But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... But... started. And then in 1991, my father passed away. And I returned to New York after that originally to come back and help with the family businesses, which was in the middle of it. And then the debacle of my father's passing hit the family and we lost all our businesses. And my family thought that it would be best if I stayed in America because of the intensity of the press and the drama surrounding my father's death in England. So I stayed. And Epstein said, well, you can keep helping me. Help me find a house and you can decorate the house. And it gave me something to do. Were you in a romantic relationship with him at this point or just friends? No, just friends. And while we're just, with respect to your father, there have been, you know, multiple questions about whether he worked for any intelligence agency. Do you have any knowledge about that? I think, well, certainly my father had a background in intelligence doing it because he was, I believe he did in the Second World War, he was a British intelligence officer. I think that my sort of belief is that once you've been an intelligence officer, you're kind of always, it doesn't mean that you're full. You're always, you're always, you're always formally employed. So I don't think my dad in any formal sense was, you know, employed by the, any agency. But when you are a very significant businessman and politician as my father was, you meet with people all the time and you, I guess, trade business or ideas. I think it's that, we fall under that definition. That's how I would think of it. Now he certainly, I have no formal knowledge of anything specifically that he did in that thing, but if you're asking me if I thought that he did help people, the answer would be yes, I do. Did your father and Mr. Epstein have a business relationship over the years? I know we're maybe jumping around a little bit. They never met. So... As far as you know, they never even met. No, I... Well, you know they never met. I know they never met. Well, how do you know they never met? Thank you. Just categorically know they never met. Well, because after... In 1991, before my father died, he asked me if I'd met anybody interesting or whatever, you know, because I was still trying not to be sucked back into the family business. And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein. And the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Epstein because I believed at that time that Epstein worked for Best Earns. And Best Earns was one of our banks. And I knew that my father was friendly with both Jimmy Cain and Mr. Epstein, and with Ace Greenberg. So my dad, Cain was actually in New York, I think. If I'm not... I don't think I had this conversation on the phone, but I was talking 30 years ago. So I'm not sure. But if I... Maybe I told him this verbatim, because I haven't. I know that what my dad did, whether I saw it or whether he did it and told me later, that I don't remember. But he called both Jimmy Cain and Ace Greenberg. And I don't know if Ace Greenberg, to far as give what sort of guy he was, and was he even allowed to... So... So they never met. He didn't even know who he was. But they had... They knew some of the same people, it sounds like, or certainly the Best Earns connection was something that you knew that they had. No. Well, he never had a connection with Epstein. He had a connection with the bank. I mean, Epstein... I'd never heard of him or knew of him before. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. No, I, I – but I don't know. So, he knew someone else in the bank. I mean, Epstein... I'd never heard of him or knew of him before, and I still... If my dad had known him, right, when I said his father who he was, he didn't know who he was. So he rang Ace and he rang Jimmy to ask if it was okay that I even knew him. And I just want to explain briefly why my father would even do such a... I've had some interesting things that have happened in my life. And they're often just... And one of them was to be found on an IRA kidnap and murder list. And so after that happened, well, there were other related, I'm not going to bore you with all the horrible things in that vein, but if you want the details, of course, I can. But after that happened, my father wanted to put a lot of protection on him, obviously. And I declined on the grounds that that would be a very life-restricting event, you know, all in law enforcement. I know you understand this. And so he had told me that I would be taking my life in my own hands or whatever. And so I think after... After that event and several others where I had to deal with things that one has, he was always quite protective of me. And so if I met somebody, he would try and verify that they weren't going to do anything hideous. And so in case he thought it was weird that he would call Jimmy an ace, you may think it is, but from my perspective, he was just because he was concerned I was in America alone, and he had an opportunity to verify who this person was. And so I don't know if I was in the room with him. I know that at some point, my father told me, he's fine. You can see it. He's safe. Okay. Well, okay. So we might come back and touch a little bit more on that at some point, but... Yeah. I went down a rabbit hole for a minute. That's all right. I just wanted to... No, that's helpful. Thank you. So, okay. So you're now in the 90s, and you're friends with... Mr. Epstein, your house, that you decorate in the house, or the apartment. What happened with your relationship? Again, I know we're talking about a 35-year time period or whatever, but to the extent you can kind of, at a very high level, talk about it. Listen, I think just full disclosure is the best way to go at this point. Yeah. So in 1992, I slept with him one time. And I was like, oh, that's it. We're going to be dating, because that's how I thought. And I kind of thought of myself in that moment, because I thought if you slept with someone, that you were then dating them. That's the world I came from. But that really was... Well, that's how I thought. But we didn't sleep together again for, I don't know, really a significant period of time. Like years, or...? I don't know if it was a year. That feels long, but maybe nine months. I mean... A long time. Okay. I just want to go back. So I had found a house for him to rent in New York, because he had asked me. I'd been looking for one for my father, and I found one, which was a former Iranian embassy, I think it was. I think it belonged to the Iranians. Or the Iraqis. Someone. Okay. And I didn't know that he had any money, really. I wanted to say it was $12,000 a month, which to me seemed like a fortune. And I said to myself, I found this house, but I don't think you can afford it. And he said, it's ridiculous. Of course I can afford it. And he rented it. And that house came with... It was a State Department house, because I think it was under sector station, or whatever it was. And I put it back together, but there were certain rules you couldn't pay, because you had to go back, and he gave it back to the country. So he had this house, and I had... moved into a 10-foot by 10-foot apartment, because all of our stuff had been either lost or frozen or whatever. So he became, in this moment, my backer, really. Because I was just like... Everything was... It felt very similar to this moment, if that makes any sense. Anyway, so... But I had no key to his house. I had no free access to his house. And in the entire time that he lived there, which was, I believe, until... the beginning of 1996, I never slept a single night in his house. Ever. Not once. But you... So you said a minute ago that... that you had slept with him on one occasion, and at the time you remember thinking, you know, that this meant you were in a relationship, but then it didn't... You really were not in that type of relationship. Did that change? Between 91 and 92, or whatever, and years forward? So, I did travel with him a lot. Okay. So I would go to his houses in Palm Beach. He only had that house, actually. No, that's not true. He had the house in Palm Beach, and he had a house in Ohio. In where? Ohio. Okay. And he had the house in Ohio because of his business relationship with Mr. Wexner. And he had a... And I had to go and decorate and put that... When we traveled together, we stayed in the same bed, but not in the... But I didn't... Go ahead. It's okay. Talk. So you stayed... So when you would travel with him to his houses in Palm Beach, Ohio, or even just traveling, if it was just traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed, so sleep in the same bed with him? Yes. Okay. Epstein told me that he had a heart condition. Heart condition. Okay. Which meant that he didn't have intercourse a lot, which suited me fine because I actually do have a medical condition, which proves me having a lot of intercourse. So what was your understanding of his heart condition and why that prevented him... from having intercourse regularly? I mean, he liked other forms of... Well, let's come back. We're going to obviously spend some time, a lot of time on the actual conduct he was accused of, so we'll come back to that. So pick up where you were talking about you traveling around with him. He rented the New York... A former Iranian... Iranian, there you go, yeah. Until around 96. That time, I believe you said that he was basically your life, like you were with him pretty regularly? Well, I... No. So I never was with him regularly. That is one of those misnomers. I mean, at the beginning, I did see more of him, but I worked in his office, so I would go to the office and I would see him, and I would count in my head when I would see him, and I would count that that would be a day that I would see him. Okay. But I didn't... I never, ever stayed with him. I believe, certainly until 93 or 94, what I didn't know was that I think he was still with his actual girlfriend, who was Eva Anderson, who became Eva Jubilee. They had been together, my understanding, I think about 10 years. I'm not sure, but that's what I think, 10 years. And I had understood from my girlfriend initially that they weren't together, and... and... and he himself had told me that they were not together, but I don't... I don't think that was true. In fact, I know it's not true. So they were still together up until, I think, 94, when, at some point in that period, when Eva met Glenn Dubin, and they got married, I think in 94, right? I don't remember when they got married. But her... she was his best friend, and his... everything... he told me that he always wished that he had married her, and had a child with her. And I know that they... she was family with him for his whole life. And I think even... I'm not sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is true or not. When he came from... back from Paris, and you arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the plane. Now, I think that either I read it in the... in the discovery that I received, or I saw it somewhere, but even if she wasn't on the plane, there must have been some email communication where she was... in Paris at the same time and going to fly back. One or the other. I don't know which one is the correct version of that. But... so they were still obviously very close, and remained throughout the entire... In fact, he was... saw her. And so I also know now, which I didn't know at the time, was that he saw lots of other women. And... I know that now because I can see... I can see it from the flight logs, and I know it now because... I can see from the... the emails. So you know from the case... Yes, not from... ...that what happened. Yes, I didn't know that along the way. You didn't know that along the way. Contemporaneously, I absolutely didn't know that. So, okay, so just... and we're going to spend time on everything you're talking about, but just to kind of close out the big picture of your relationship. So, we're now in the late 90s. Continue on with, again, staying high level to the extent you can about your relationship with him. So, after... So, my responsibilities increased with each acquisition that he had, and each new project. So, I believe the first thing that he purchased, the ranch in New Mexico. Okay. And so, what he had tasked me with, I think that was purchased in 94, if I'm right. So, he had tasked me... One of the things that we did was visit, in my mind, I say every state, but it wouldn't have been every state, but many states, to go look at real estate property. And so, I know we went to Montana. I know we went to Utah. I mean, it was... It was to go look at real estate. It was fun, to be honest. And then, I arranged for us to go to New Mexico, and he just loved New Mexico. And then, I don't remember how the ranch happened, but I don't remember that now. It's lost. And then, he ended up buying the ranch. And I think, if I'm right, it came from... Well, the Kings, who may have been the governor, had bought the ranch. And then, I had to deal with that. And dealing with that was extensive. I mean, the way that I thought of myself, or the way that I think is the best way to explain how I view my role as a general manager, because each property, to me, was like a hotel. So, the ranch was very challenging, because not only that, but it had BLM land. So, to have... To maintain your BLM, you had to have... And I love animals, and so the first thing, horses, and... So, I wanted it... If you're going to have a ranch, I like authenticity. So, I don't think you should have a ranch if you're not going to have the things that make it special. So, were you paid by him along the way during this time? I became salaried at some point. Okay. My memory is that I got paid $25,000 a year to begin with. That's my memory. I may be wrong. And then, with each... As it became more obvious, because I kept thinking I was going to the home thing. And... But it... Did you... And financially, you were not relying on him. The $25,000 or whatever amount you were paid, were you relying on that money to live and his generosity to live, or did you have your own... Your own money? So, there's a... And again, I want to just make sure we're talking about... Keeping it between the late 90s, you know, maybe, I guess, into a little of the 2000s. I just want to hit something on the head right now. There's a tremendous amount of reporting that said that I had a... Trust fund. Thank you. A trust fund. I have never had a trust fund at any time. So, how did you live? Did you live with... I mean, $25,000 is not enough to live on. No. So, I had, during this period of time, the secret... The serious fraud squad had come to see me in relation to my father's personal and to establish whether I had been involved in any way with his business or with any shenanigans. I've told this story many times, so I don't know if it's now somewhat hypocritical, but I'll tell you what my memory is. So, I received a letter from them that said, you can't go about my business. And my memory may be hypocritical. It was a PS that said, I used Snow White's custody. I had nothing. There was no... I was never involved in any of his business, whatever. So, I was free. Were you... So, but you're... You know, obviously, your father and your family had a lot of businesses. Is it because the money, whatever money or whatever equity was in the businesses just stayed with your other family members? No, there was no money. So, my father was never attached to money. He was born a peasant, a real one. Dirt floor, no shoes, no clothes. Some clothes, but not, you know... Sorry, I don't need to say. Nothing. And he never... He was never into that. I mean, there were things that... He had his extravagances. He loved his boat and his plane. So, obviously, you need money for that. But there was no... nothing else. And there was not a single penny that came to any of us. Any time, ever. Okay, so when you're talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the 90s, you're not... You're very different financially. You're very different financially positioned than he is. Absolutely. Meaning, he's giving you money. He's paying for your... When you fly, he assumes these are your flights. Yes. Okay, so you... I interrupted you when you were saying how you were functioning as general manager. You helped with the New Mexico ranch. So, did your role with him continue like that for many years or for how long? So, I continued in 2000... Well, by 1999, our relationship had founded. In... Why? Two reasons. We were never sleeping together again. So, we stopped having sexual relations in 1999. Not full sex. Didn't mean that we didn't still share a bedroom sometimes or whatever. He had another girlfriend. He had what? Other girlfriends. I definitively knew that it was over after 9-11, actually. Because we were both in New York. And, I don't know, were you in New York? I mean, 9-11s. And it was a scary time for you in New York. You didn't know. I didn't know. Nobody knew what was going on. And he was in 71st Street and I was in New York. And he wouldn't see me. I asked him if his mom went very close to him. He was in the hospital . And then, I knew, as anyone did at that time, you're not going to be there for someone in 9-11. You're never going to be there. So, for me, that was the blame set. Yeah. Okay. And he had another English girlfriend, actually, from 2000. Are you though still on his, are you still being paid by him at this point? Yes. Okay, so go ahead. So what, at that point, when you say you realized kind of... Well, I mean, I'm talking about the, I had had, there was a, I wanted to get married and have children. And Epstein had encouraged me to believe that that would, I don't know about the, certainly by the late 90s, I knew the marriage part was never going to happen. I had believed that maybe in 96, 97, 98 maybe, but then I realized it wasn't that. But I did think that we might have a child, which is what I had really wanted. And I realized... So, okay. What happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your relationship with him? So... Give or take 2001. So, we stopped having physicality. I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't friends. I certainly did stay sometimes in his room. I mean, friends with benefits, if you will, just not sex. And I started dating. Okay. And I met someone that I found very much in love with. In 2003, his name was Ted White. Ted White, who you may know as the founder of Gateway, the computers. And we had an amazing relationship that ended and went on until 2010, I think. And I was with Ted from that time. Did you meet him through Mr. Epstein? No. Well... Indirectly. I suppose you could say so. No. They never met. I was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't President Clinton. President Clinton was my friend. He was Epstein's friend. And Epstein had flown here. And there was a dinner. And Ted came to the dinner. So, I met him directly through Mr. Epstein because it was his plane. But I'd have been there anyway without him. I had... So, I met Ted. So, I met Ted. So, I met Ted. So, I met Ted. So, I met Ted. So, I met Ted. So, I met Ted. So, I met Ted. So, I met Ted. So, I met Ted. So, I met Ted. So, I met Ted. That's... Whoa! Okay, look for that. Sorry. That was... Who was Mr. Epstein? Let me remember. I have a couple more. One is... Yes. Has anybody respond to Mr. Epstein? What? It's... One is Fred Doyle from... That was ordered? Could you repeat what? Sorry. broadband. Yeah. Is Mr. Epstein also a�로 iron? Yeah. There's two of them they were trained to operate. And in determined version. Okay. So, you really? They would be perfectly identical? Yes. Okay. So, you would in reverse position, right? So, you know.... were on the plane yes that you can remember I'm not oh and you and so why so how do you meet so what why do you said that's when you met him and that he met him through Clinton well it was it I don't think I would have been there had it not been it it was a President Clinton dinner and Ted can't present him not to do with mr. Epstein does that make sense yes that's why I say that okay so you're you're so in the time that you're dating that you're with him to 2009 are you still working for mr. Epstein during that time so here's so they would you say that Jeff you try very hard mr. to try very hard to keep me to work because I mean this is a complex operator I'm not talking about anything until just the sheer size of the projects including the construction projects the houses star it's a it's a really significant job and I ran all the properties the staff in the management of the properties that and structures and we're talking binds with builders that I'm doing I can't remember what the budget was construction on any given year it's going but it was these are very significant projects and so that was what I did and I managed the budgets well I didn't manage the budgets I over sold with a budget so I would just make sure that if he said you bought an altar a air-conditioning department I still remember they're in a and I could call the island manager, did you receive the carrier, whatever, you know. When did Mr. Epstein purchase the island? I want to say 96 or 97, something like that. Okay, so we're going to come back and spend more time on the money with respect to Mr. Epstein and his wealth, but just so we can finish this. So in 2009, you ended your relationship with Ted? 2009, 2010. I can't remember if it was 10, but I don't remember. So in that time period, what happens next as far as your relationship with Mr. Epstein? I don't have one with him. You don't have one with him, like, you don't see him, or it's just a different relationship? I did see him, maybe once or twice, maybe even three times. I certainly went to his house once, for sure. Maybe twice. But I was not seeing him. The only time that I was in touch with him was when the things happened, like things in the press that affected me, or when the CBRA case was filed, and there was all that rubbish that went out, because I needed information. Because I didn't know anything about what was happening, and I needed his help. A, to understand. I don't know if it makes sense to rephrase that. I don't mean his help, I meant to have answers, so that I had an ability to defend myself. That's what I'm talking about. So when does that relationship change? You talked about when the physical relationship stopped, and then you're still working for him or with him, managing his properties and serving as a general manager. You then start your own relationship with another neighbor. So you're an individual with Ted from 2003 till 2009 or 10. At what point in that whole period is there more of a break, where you're no longer acting as his general manager? So I wanted to have a full break when I started dating Ted. And he was clever. I suppose it would be true to say that I sort of viewed Mr. Epstein at that point as sort of family, if you will, like someone I could rely on. I should have had more confidence in myself, I can see that now. But at the time, given everything that had happened in my life, I thought that it would... And I saw how he was with other people, like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable. And he always said I was like family, so he worked hard to maintain a relationship with me. He was generous with me. He let me use the plane, for instance. Which was very generous. He would check in with my mum. Things that were meaningful to me in that time. And then, it may still not have worked, but his mother, Paula, had been in a very serious car crash. And she had become sort of like a surrogate mother for me. Sort of because my mum wasn't there. I could look after her the way that I would have liked to look after my own mum. So I became very close to his mother. And she had been in a car crash. And in 2004, I believe, it may have been 2005, I don't recall exactly, her health took a serious decline. And Epstein called me and asked me if I could look after her. And by looking after her, that meant organising her doctors, making sure she had new clothes, making sure her house was clean. Where was she? She lived in a retirement establishment outside of Palm Beach. It's West Palm. I was going to say something like the Golden Girls, but it's not called that. I just don't remember what it's called. But it was an old age. It was a retirement home, if you will. Todd, I don't know. We've been going for maybe about an hour now. Yeah. Is this a good time? Yeah, yeah. So we'll take a break. All right, so we're going to take a break. The time is 10.56.